Your idea of a challenge.

[Meyi]

One of the biggest complaints about Abyssea is that it lacks "challenge". Yet the rebuttal is often that old content wasn't a "challenge" either and that people overcomplicated it.

Since so many people want the game to be more challenging, what would you like to see implemented?

Personally I love mental strategies.

[SheKicksHigh]

something where one person screws up their roll = wipe
i have yet to see this level of craftsmanship from se

[Raksha]

Jailer of Love is a fun fight. Not as 'challenging' as it was at 75 but I like it.

[Gadanae]

The new HQ Dynamis Bosses are quite the challenge still. Also, let's not forget voidwatch. Good gear to be had doing either and it's still brand new = challenging.

[scaevola]

heroic raiding in wow: cataclysm

[Runespider]

I think the only challenge I've had in FFXI was Salvage really.

Probably one of the best events they ever added.

[Bumbeen]

nimble nelson 2x rdm/nin

[Meyi]

I think the only challenge I've had in FFXI was Salvage really.

Probably one of the best events they ever added.

I agree that Salvage was a bit of a challenge. I didn't like being the only one without any gear though, haha.

Mmm, I think the game could be made harder without subtracting everything and having us unlock it. And I think the game could be harder even while keeping cruor buffs and atmas. I kind of like Nyzul Isle's floor system where every floor had a unique objective and we wouldn't know the objective until we got there. The objectives themselves weren't very enjoyable, but the concept was neat.

[DerianX]

I find the biggest challenge in FFXI is getting temp items from campaign NPCs while having other NPCs spam you.

[Mezzopiano]

What I'd consider a challenge: Something that takes skill, planning, and coordination. If someone messes up, there should be dire consequences. Also, taking a long time to do is not challenging.

[Francisco]

Salvage and Einherjar were pretty good in the challenge department... despite some bad drop rate in Salvage and some horrible mob selections (Dark Elementals mostly) in Einherjar.

Limbus was mostly pretty easy. Dynamis wasn't really hard - and I found the old way really boring (too long).

Pandemonium Warden @ 75 was a good challenge, but not an entirely realistic one.

As far as Abyssea goes, Rani and Raja (without brew) are pretty challenging. I like the Alfard fight... it's one of those fights that's either pretty easy (if you know what you're doing) or a total disaster (if you don't have a clue). Dragua was a good fight with four (MNK, NIN, WHM, BLM)...

What I don't think qualifies as a good challenge is when a NM just constantly afflicts you with (an) annoying status effect(s) and outputs ridiculous amounts of damage constantly and you can't do anything about it except have Cure V and VI spammed on you constantly. That's more annoying than it is "challenging". The best example I can think of this is Bukhis. He basically destroys your shadows every 3 seconds, takes your Max HP down, then hits you with powerful 3-4 hit weaponskills. And doesn't stop. Not as hard as Rani, but far more annoying. Also not a huge fan of the "absorbing damage during WS" phase of Glavoid... it's not the idea I'm against, but more how it starts immediately as the NM readies his TP move. Due to the inherit lag between client and server, there's a pretty good chance you're going to have an attack round go off before you manage to turn. And it's always a triple attack proc with two kicks tossed in on MNK. And they're all critical hits...

Also, the best challenge this game ever had (in terms of being realistic and balanced) were the Chains of Promathia missions before they nerfed them into nothingness because too many people complained they were too hard.

I miss the reports coming out with the missions... like for pre-nerf Ouryu... "six of our servers top JP are dead outside the entrance to Monarch Linn" ... only bad thing out of the hard CoP missions were the "broken" teleports in Promyvion (could spend hours trying to go up a floor) and the really crappy trapdoor portion of Pso'xja.

I haven't tried the Khimaria NMs or the Omega Weapon in Uleguerand yet... I hear they are pretty tough.

[Akujima]

heroic raiding in wow: cataclysm

This


What I'd consider a challenge: Something that takes skill, planning, and coordination. If someone messes up, there should be dire consequences. Also, taking a long time to do is not challenging.

And this.

[Korpg]

Something like Einherjar system, except not limited or based on undead-type monsters.

Having a bunch of Bugards beating on you, with a chance of Dolls, Quadavs, and/or Slimes in the next wave could be challenging.

Something that would require a specific set of jobs needed, with specific roles would be great. Like, one wave means you have to beat on one monster in a whole mess of mobs, and you have to defeat that one monster without killing any of the other monsters or you lose (either a penalty or a full ejection), but you can sleep them, or hit them, just can't kill any of the mobs other than the one specific monster needed to kill.

Another thing could be, support a group of NPCs against a wave of Beastmen, kindof like Campaign, except that you can't let any or a lot of the NPCs die, and you can't cure them either. That way, you have to have smaller groups of people kill the Beastmen before the Beastmen kill the NPC.

Stuff like that could be considered challenging. The only problem with that is, with casual playstyle, not a lot of people would do that, not unless there are great rewards that goes along with it. Being limited to 1 fight per day would suck also.

[Akujima]

Grull's Lair -> Lv70 WoW, Burning Crusade Expansion

The perfect example of a well thought out raid, with an excellent level of difficulty.

[Malamasala]

It doesn't matter what is added, someone will figure out the easiest way to beat it, and then everyone will do it, and people will complain it is too easy. They could of course try it another way, but then it wouldn't be the same because they'd make it harder than it should be.

Salvage is a perfect example. Enter with 12, free lot all cells. notice you can't win. Why can't you win? Because it is too hard. So then you just give 3 people all cells, and suddenly, easy mode!

People should stop asking for challenges and just go back and do old content without the easy routes.

[Leonlionheart]

CoP at release, and still somewhat at cap was challenging.

I don't want caps on battles, but it shows that someone working for SE knows how to make fights.

[Akujima]

People should stop asking for challenges and just go back and do old content without the easy routes.

"Easy Routes" should be weeded out while the content is being designed.

[Ravenmore]

CoP missions where never hard for the perfect job set up. Thats what pissed so many off was having to level up 3 or 4 jobs just to do it. Love wasn't hard at 75 unless you didn't know where to fight it. As for salvge what Mal said. You could all ways make thing harder if you wanted to thing is most of the player base didn't like farming pop sets and risking fails. Aggain nothing is hard once a strat is found to work look at kirin there was a time it was the hardest mob in the game. Didn't take long for any group to beat it. Unless SE completly wiped all the game mechics and started over nothing will be hard.

[Leonlionheart]

I haven't tried the Khimaria NMs or the Omega Weapon in Uleguerand yet... I hear they are pretty tough.

Abyssean NMs aren't particularly hard once you know what you're doing. Dhorme Khimaira can be ruined during the 30 seconds of red proc terror, and Apademak just needs a good stunner (BLM/SCH using alacrity and fast cast/haste gear could solo it) or stun rotation. Pankotrator is easy once you know how to not trigger it's 2hour too, although server lag can often cause wipe.

Rani is hard, but can be easy simply because he's predictable. Meteor is the biggest issue, and it uses it every 10% after 50%. You could easily cap out a MNK's HP at that point with afflatus solace and the Meteor would only take the MNK's HP down to 50% or so depending on merits/abyssite. Charm can get you though, and MNK tanking isn't always viable considering en-dispel. Rani is easily the hardest of the new age bosses.

Raja is pretty easy too in the end. I don't remember the fight much because it was so long ago, but I never died in the entire fight as MNK, and rarely ever lost hate (enmity douse and a good accomplice helped).

...

However in the end no challenge that SE can make will enevitably be hard unless the NM has something that goes through perfect defense, because you can always have 2~6 SMNs astral flow -> perfect defense a DD party and totally zerg something.

[Akujima]

However in the end no challenge that SE can make will enevitably be hard unless the NM has something that goes through perfect defense, because you can always have 2~6 SMNs astral flow -> perfect defense a DD party and totally zerg something.

Which is where SE has the crazy idea that Nerfing things is wrong.

[Ravenmore]

SE has used the nerf bat many times. Lets look at PLD they nerfed it to hell and back right before abyssea and when abyssea came out. Mobs that take reduced dmg from atonement, reset hate ever other tp move, nerfing of /rdm. More then one time they nerfed shadows, nerfed rdm tanking, rng nerf, brd song tanking.

[Korpg]

Akujima, you never give up, do you?

[Karbuncle]

I think FFXI needs to be WoW Cause WoW is so cool and if FFXI Was like WoW it would be cool too cause WoW is cool.

...

Sarcasm aside, My Idea of challenge... Well, thats an extremely vague question. I guess I like events like Nyzul, where theres an Element of Randomness to it, not a big element, but enough to keep you guessing what the next step would be.

Its hard to make something challenging, without being overly broken in my eyes. Plus, people will complain about "gimics" if you institute something that gives a new level of "Challenge" (Like Raja removing Sub jobs). So, I can't really answer "My idea of Challenge".

I Just want something thats fun and rewarding, that seems like the biggest challenge ever.

[Panthera]

Beating a series of missions with a connecting storyline with interesting characters. The missions should entail monsters spawned from ???'s, difficult BCMs with cool backgrounds, negotiating maze-like levels with high level mobs that have ways of spotting you, and riddles and puzzles a la Moogle Kupo de'tat.

[Teraniku]

Beating a series of missions with a connecting storyline with interesting characters. The missions should entail monsters spawned from ???'s, difficult BCMs with cool backgrounds, negotiating maze-like levels with high level mobs that have ways of spotting you, and riddles and puzzles a la Moogle Kupo de'tat.

Don't get me wrong A Moogle Kupo d'etat was a funny story but there were way to many hoops to jump through just to get to the final fight. I don't mind farming Key items, I don't mind puzzles, but having a puzzle, a quiz than a time trial, one right after another was a real pain. Especially with a pick up group. Having to do it 5 times in a row is really a pain. (Lucky for me the group I went with was determined to get it done)

-To me a challenge were the Original non nerfed Promyvion bosses. Even with the right strategy, jobs, and Animas, it still depended on everyone knowing their jobs and executing the strategy perfectly. It also allowed a good mix of jobs for the fight. (1 or 2 SMNs made the fight easier but still not a guaranteed Victory)

[Seriha]

Death, Charm, and Hate Resists do not an interesting challenge make, but that's seemingly the best we're thrown at these days. I still miss the thought that when SE first teased about mobs like Cerberus, it'd be three different heads with HP bars, their own hate tables, and so on. Instead, it wound up being a largely unimaginative mob family, and typically perpetuating the One Mob vs. Many Players style that partially negates challenge simply because someone may never look at you or the environment itself poses no challenge.

[svengalis]

Most older players think that camping a NM for hours is challenging, spending years to upgrade relics is challenging, waiting months for that certain drop in sky is challenging, news flash its not its just 10x more time consuming! I say to anyone who thinks Abyssea is not challenging to go in with no cruor buffs, atmas or brews then lets see how easy it is.

[Korpg]

Most older players think that camping a NM for hours is challenging, spending years to upgrade relics is challenging, waiting months for that certain drop in sky is challenging, news flash its not its just 10x more time consuming! I say to anyone who thinks Abyssea is not challenging to go in with no cruor buffs, atmas or brews then lets see how easy it is.

Why don't you?

I mean, you are the one who keeps spouting that, why don't you go in Abyssea and make yourself so bad that you do about as much damage as a level 90 noob with level 30 skills.

[Mezzopiano]

Beating a series of missions with a connecting storyline with interesting characters. The missions should entail monsters spawned from ???'s, difficult BCMs with cool backgrounds, negotiating maze-like levels with high level mobs that have ways of spotting you, and riddles and puzzles a la Moogle Kupo de'tat.

You realize that apart from the puzzle element, you just described (capped) CoP?

[Karbuncle]

Death, Charm, and Hate Resists do not an interesting challenge make, but that's seemingly the best we're thrown at these days. I still miss the thought that when SE first teased about mobs like Cerberus, it'd be three different heads with HP bars, their own hate tables, and so on. Instead, it wound up being a largely unimaginative mob family, and typically perpetuating the One Mob vs. Many Players style that partially negates challenge simply because someone may never look at you or the environment itself poses no challenge.

While i agree, I must ask. What does pose a challenge to you?

I admit myself the question is vague, but given time to think... I don't think its possible to make a good challenge people won't whine "gimic" or "too hard" about. If They added "many v many" fights, It would be like Odin, He summons adds, do people fight them? no the strategy is to have a RDM Dia them and kite until they depop.

I think Its because people will find the easiest way and do it, its obvious most of FFXI Doesn't really want challenge, they want easy fights with the illusion of difficulty. Old FFXI was Easy (not as easy as new FFXI), with the Illusion of difficulty(Drop rate).

The problem with true difficulty is that, if its a single mob, people will eventually find out the best/simplest/easiest way to deal with all the nuances of the fight, and it becomes easy through practice. Mobs like Rani, and Shinryu, when not brewed, Still offer a significant challenge. To those who really want challenge anyway, most people whine challenge then pop a brew anyway.

So its a tricky mob. If us players can't think of a working enemy/event that is a true challenge... Developers are in the same boat.

I made a fun fight on FFXIAH a few months ago, I can post it. It was more of a fake-design fight, but i think it'd be challenging. I'll link it:

http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/17763/if-you-were-an-nm-what-would-your-pop-be/3/#1080999

Put that fight in, and good luck :P! (18 man fight btw, designed for 99 cap) (Looking back its incredibly broken lul)

[Karbuncle]

"It was time consuming!" It's a game, thats what they're for.

Technically games are designed to be fun, not a time consuming job.

However, if you said "Its an MMO, that's what they're for" I agree >___>

MMO's are time sinks, but fun :D!

[Ravenmore]

Most older players didn't see the time sink drop rates as a challenging, some seen out claiming others as the challenge.

[Seriha]

While i agree, I must ask. What does pose a challenge to you?

While I'm sure people would just brush it off as gimmicks, I'm mainly looking at it as various objectives within a fight other than just taking a mob's HP to zero.

Let's say there's a really, really, really effin' big Ironclad mob, like one foot is the size of a tower. Players could technically enter the inside of the mob, but would possibly face environmental hazards like electrical currents or moving pistons on top of possible internal security mechanisms. Now, you'd want a small party on the outside to be keeping this NM busy since it'd otherwise be able to focus more on ousting intruders. Those on the inside, however, could seek out its power source, whatever "brain" it has, and other possible objectives with the interior itself being randomized enough that every fight can be new enough.

None of this should require an exceptionally rigid party structure like CoP did, but just something sensibly balanced like a tank, healer, a couple DDs, then some support.

As much as some people have creamed their pants over CoP's airship fights, I actually felt they were pretty lame. We had no "feeling" like were in air, but instead it was just your usual stationary battlefield with a pretty background. Now, what if you introduced turbulence, or a means to knock the mob off and win more easily? Protect the engines? Fend off other airborne attackers? Use your imagination.

In a nutshell, I'm seeking more complex fights, not necessarily more difficult.

[Duelle]

heroic raiding in wow: cataclysmI'll see your heroic Cataclysm and raise you Firefighter (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jee971qfSMQ). >.>;

[Arlan]

While I'm sure people would just brush it off as gimmicks, I'm mainly looking at it as various objectives within a fight other than just taking a mob's HP to zero.

Let's say there's a really, really, really effin' big Ironclad mob, like one foot is the size of a tower. Players could technically enter the inside of the mob, but would possibly face environmental hazards like electrical currents or moving pistons on top of possible internal security mechanisms. Now, you'd want a small party on the outside to be keeping this NM busy since it'd otherwise be able to focus more on ousting intruders. Those on the inside, however, could seek out its power source, whatever "brain" it has, and other possible objectives with the interior itself being randomized enough that every fight can be new enough.

None of this should require an exceptionally rigid party structure like CoP did, but just something sensibly balanced like a tank, healer, a couple DDs, then some support.

As much as some people have creamed their pants over CoP's airship fights, I actually felt they were pretty lame. We had no "feeling" like were in air, but instead it was just your usual stationary battlefield with a pretty background. Now, what if you introduced turbulence, or a means to knock the mob off and win more easily? Protect the engines? Fend off other airborne attackers? Use your imagination.

In a nutshell, I'm seeking more complex fights, not necessarily more difficult.

I actually like this idea...
Making the environmental an important part of strategy within a fight would make the game even more fun.

Example: Fighting a giant Turtle NM Monster, and the monster hits hard, you can have a NIN kite the Turtle while the DDs have to attack 3 special Switches to activate a canon Beam, The NIN needs to guide the NM near the cannon so the beam hits the NM. When the NM gets hit by the beam, The Turtle NM falls on its back, struggling to get up, and DDs can get the GREEN LIGHT to attack the NM while it trys to get up slowly. Then Repeat for 5-10 times. Also, if the NIN gets hit by the Cannon beam by mistake while trying to guide NM to the cannon beam, It will ONE SHOT the player that is in the way of the beam. That way NIN kiting the Turtle NM needs to not only watch out for the NM but also watch out not to get killed by the beam his trying to guide the NM.

HA!
Tell me what you guys think of that! =) That sounds like a fun Strategy imo.

[Arlan]

Oh ya.. and the NM Turtle is Invincible when it is not flipped over.
So you have no choice but to execute this stategy in order to win.
Making soloing impossible, muhaha!

The NM should hit really hard so u have to kite it. And you have to have a WHM or a healer to heal while DDs try to activate switches to start up the beam! God now I wish SE would so do this. I wana see this kinda Battle field strategy in this game.

The Switches should have HIGH HP so DDs should do higher WSs on it in order to trigger the switch.
So Heavy DDs are highly recomended.. yup.. I can see this being fun already.

[noodles355]

I agree that Salvage was a bit of a challenge. I didn't like being the only one without any gear though, haha. Was? It still can be if you want. Last salvage I cleared SSR including Long-Armed Chariot duo Sam/War and Thf/Nin. That was a good challenge.

[Arlan]

Was? It still can be if you want. Last salvage I cleared SSR including Long-Armed Chariot duo Sam/War and Thf/Nin. That was a good challenge.

Check out my idea above your post >.>.. plz I want to know what others think including yourself. I put time and imaginations coming up with it lol

[Akujima]

In a nutshell, I'm seeking more complex fights, not necessarily more difficult.


Seriha has got it right, except I'd say add both the complexity and difficulty. Don't give us one and sacrifice the other. More situations that deal with the environment and more complex mob reactions.

Tank and Spank gets extremely boring after awhile.

[Seriha]

I emphasize complexity over difficulty in the sense that we really shouldn't see content where only the smallest fraction of the playerbase can hope to finish. Being better geared could help finish more quickly and safely, but the moment you basically introduce the equivalent of "gear checks" that other MMOs have, you start alienating people who are either unlucky with drops or simply don't have the time to hunt them with any level of expediency. Now, this isn't to say people wearing level 1 RSE should be able to beat everything, but a little bit of common sense should go a long way.

[Leonlionheart]

Seriha has got it right, except I'd say add both the complexity and difficulty. Don't give us one and sacrifice the other. More situations that deal with the environment and more complex mob reactions.

Tank and Spank gets extremely boring after awhile.

well considering there are only 3 real methods of killing anything in an RPG

tank and spank
zerg
kite

i don't see what else they could possibly do

[Leonlionheart]

I emphasize complexity over difficulty in the sense that we really shouldn't see content where only the smallest fraction of the playerbase can hope to finish. Being better geared could help finish more quickly and safely, but the moment you basically introduce the equivalent of "gear checks" that other MMOs have, you start alienating people who are either unlucky with drops or simply don't have the time to hunt them with any level of expediency. Now, this isn't to say people wearing level 1 RSE should be able to beat everything, but a little bit of common sense should go a long way.

This is pretty much what is unique about FFXI, get enough people and you can do anything.

Although in its current state where leveling up a job is made completely irrelevant by Abyssea, I think SE should put some type of "gear check" NMs since it would be the only real way to show a sort of progression.

Gear just making a fight easier makes that gear not really desirable as in comparison to gear making a fight actually beatable.

[Soundwave]

Einherjar, It was always so random the change of battle/tactics and the rush of tying to beat it in time was always good fun T3 anyways for that matter.

[Zumi]

FFXI has always been claim / farm a lot of easy stuff rather then actually having challenging fights.

[noodles355]

I also found soloing ZM16 a great challenge on Rdm at 75. Granted my skills were still uncapped so my nukes resisted and I wiped on 2nd stage at about 30%, but with better gear and capped ele skill I reckon I could have done it.

[Karbuncle]

(Dont wanna quote to big)

In a nutshell, I'm seeking more complex fights, not necessarily more difficult.

Those are great ideas, But they fit more into a Real-time Single Player RPG or FPS tbh. That kind of in-depth fight would be nearly impossible for FFXI. Mostly due to how FFXI plays.

-----

Though, on the topic of the Iron Giant, It sounds really fun, but it also sounds more like you want an Epic fight close ot "Shadw of the Colossus". I.E Taking down a huge foe, crawling through (on) its body to reach the brain (Rune spot). This kind of thing would also be hard in FFXI, however, i Could see a possibility.

Imagine it more like Sandworm. You fight this Large Iron-Giant, Eventually, It draws you inside its body. You then enter a Salvage-like "Nyzul" area inside the iron Giant, where you perform objectives to reach the "brain", Which could be guarded by a strong boss.

So in essence, You'd progress through the Iron Giants body to reach the top and defeat the guardian/controller. On the way you could run into objectives like "Shut down pistons" Which could lower the "bosses" Attack speed, or they could be side-objectives, Maybe "Activate xxx switch" as a side objective, that would hinder the "brains/boss's" Casting time.

Basically, Objective based floors (like Nyzul), with a big boss at the end, and objectives throughout the "Body" That would hinder the final boss or weaken him (Similar to some CoP Dynamis stuff). This would be the most realistic way to implement your fight.

The "boss" At the end could be a unique "Iron Giant head" model too. Drops could be handled like Voidwatch too. After the NM Dies, a Chest spawns where each person gets a different reward (I liked that system...)

[Akujima]

well considering there are only 3 real methods of killing anything in an RPG

tank and spank
zerg
kite

i don't see what else they could possibly do

Wrong. You've obviously never played World of Warcraft. And yes I'll keep quoting it because it has very dynamic fight sequences, and nobody complained about how difficult they were. They sucked it up and realized they needed to work as a team to down the boss.

Magtheridons, Hydross and Lurker you did NOT tank and spank, you could not kite, and could NOT zerg. There was a specific strategy used to down each of those bosses. Grull the Dragonkiller and High King Maulgar, were also very dynamic situations. They did involve tanking and spanking to some extent, but that's not ALL the focus was on.

And DD in WoW had the toughest job -> They had to watch hate. Why? Because if the boss turned and started hitting them, they would be pushing up daises, lowering their overall DPS.

EDIT: It's time to face the facts, and learn from the pro's. Take from their successful concepts/idea's and expand on them.

[Akujima]

but the moment you basically introduce the equivalent of "gear checks" that other MMOs have, you start alienating people who are either unlucky with drops or simply don't have the time to hunt them with any level of expediency.

An Acceptable Lv of "Gear Checks" is welcomed by the community. If this were untrue, then WoW would not have become the smashing success that it is, and it has a TON of gear checks.

Drop rate issues in FFXI are abyssmal and always have been. That's a flop on the side of the Dev's who decided to give low, low, low percentages with massive competition when the game was first designed. The fact that there are barely any instances in XI is tricky to deal with, but it can be overcome with smart and thoughtful planning.

But anyhow. Basically without a healthy "Gear Check" system in place, then your character turns into a Demigod or Superhero, which will effectively make all the content simplistic and easy.

[Karbuncle]

EDIT: It's time to face the facts, and learn from the pro's. Take from their successful concepts/idea's and expand on them.

Every game is has taken something from other games, this is very true, and it works, to an extent.

But at the same time, Copying WoW Doesn't really work well. I mean, Look at the dozens of "WoW Clone" MMOs released lately. Almost all of them die withing weeks/months.

You need to borrow some ideas, But you need to have unique aspects too. also, the hate system works different in WoW though yah? Watching hate in FFXI is nearly impossible, If the fight lasts more than 3 minutes, Every good DD will be at capped hate. Its a flaw in the hate design, not the players really, most DD jobs don't have any form of hate shedding outside of well, Dying. Because of CE (Enmity that stays on you until you take damage).

WoW is also a multi-bil' dollar MMO, FFXI is not. WoW Has Million of subscribers, FFXI Does not. So its safe to assume WoW has a much much more... working? Dev team. They probably have much more Resources than FFXI right now.

So making really in-depth intensive fights is easier for the WoW DEV Team, They have more resources and time. So getting the kind of in-depth fight in FFXI like say, Grull you pointed out, Would be really difficult because of the constraints on the DEV Team right now.

Events like Salvage back in the "prime" show that given the time they can make in-depth Events. The amount of things you had to do correctly to progress was astonishing. Like killing the slimes without spikes on their heads to get to the rampart, Things like that.

Not saying i don't want in-depth fights, I'm only saying its rather difficult to pull off now :|

[Akujima]

But at the same time, Copying WoW Doesn't really work well. I mean, Look at the dozens of "WoW Clone" MMOs released lately. Almost all of them die withing weeks/months.

Yes. That's because they're retarded and literally copy WoW down to the GUI.


Events like Salvage back in the "prime" show that given the time they can make in-depth Events. The amount of things you had to do correctly to progress was astonishing. Like killing the slimes without spikes on their heads to get to the rampart, Things like that.

Not saying i don't want in-depth fights, I'm only saying its rather difficult to pull off now :|


Well even if they can't add all the environmental effects, there should still be a healthy level of "Gear Checks" and boss battles can be dynamic by just using different abilities more often. Combine those abilities together, have the boss use them at random intervals and test out the gameplay mechanics thoughtfully before releasing the content. Sure it would take longer, but the end result would be more fulfilling content that lasts longer.


EXAMPLE: Dragon Type~ NM

Phase 1: On the ground.
- The Dragon is highly susceptible to Melee Damage, but is Resistant to Magic and Ranged Attacks.
- The Dragon dishes out high Melee Damage and Enfeebles to the Front Line Jobs.
- The Melee and Tank have their work cut out for them in this stage. Melee needs to do damage quick, but not pull hate off the Tank and die. The Tank needs keep hate from the Melee so that they don't pull hate and get KO'd.

Phase 2: Standing on Hind Legs, Wings Glowing.
- The Dragon is highly resistant to Ranged Attacks and Melee Attacks, but Magic cures the Dragon or is reflected back to the caster.
- The Dragon deals incredible high AoE damage that targets a single person (hopefully the tank)
- The Melee have to get out of range quick, to avoid being KO'd by it's heavy AoE.
- The Healers have their work cut out for them in this phase. They have to make sure the Tank stays alive and is topped off to survive his massive beatings.
- The Mages need to HOLD nukes, so that the Dragon won't get healed/reflect damage to them. And possibly help out with cures and removing status effects~

Phase 3: Flying in the Air
- The Dragon is highly susceptible to Ranged Attacks and Magic Damage
- The Dragon dishes out Ranged AoE Attacks on random targets with no enmity table.
- The Entire Alliance would have to spread out, in order for their to be less damage taken as a whole. But not too far from the healers, so that they can still heal you.
- The Ranged Attackers and Mages get to work and blast him hard in this Phase.
- The Tanks and Melee position themselves so that if they get hit with an AoE blast from above, its not near other BUSY members.

Random Time rotation of Phases.

Phase 1: lasts 3 minutes
Phase 3: lasts 5 minutes ======= Section 1
Phase 2: lasts 1 minute

Phase 3: lasts 1 minute
Phase 2: lasts 3 minutes ======= Section 2
Phase 1: lasts 1 minute

Phase 2: lasts 5 minutes
Phase 3: lasts 3 minutes ======= Section 3
Phase 1: lasts 5 minutes

You can mix and match each section, and there would be countless possibilities for the Phases to be random each and every battle.

Adding this sort of extreme dynamics, would crank up the difficulty and make the fight rely heavily on focus, teamwork and coordination. Rather than it being just solely based on gear/stats/equipment.

[Duelle]

Every game is has taken something from other games, this is very true, and it works, to an extent.

But at the same time, Copying WoW Doesn't really work well. I mean, Look at the dozens of "WoW Clone" MMOs released lately. Almost all of them die withing weeks/months.There's a huge difference between what the clone MMOs copy from WoW and WoW's raid content. Most just copy the user-friendliness of the UI and questing system. It kinda ends there, really.

I can understand the thing about dev time and limitations of FFXI's game engine. You can't do Heigan the Unclean's encounter in FFXI because player movement is very limited. Flame Leviathan would be impossible seeing that there are no vehicle mechanics in FFXI as well. You could probably do a mimic of C'thun from AQ40, provided you have safeguards in place to keep players from dying due to lag at the beginning of the phase inside the stomach (since C'thun's stomach acid deals nature damage to you the whole time you're there). Yogg-saron would probably work too...well, barring the tentacles since the game engine doesn't support multi-targetting. No Malygos because of lack of vehicle mechanics (not to mention the jump button is used during the encounter to control the floating platforms), and lag would be killer on a copy of the Lich King encounter (I can see people missing Quake during phase transitions due to lag and falling to their deaths). Sarth 3D would probably work, provided damage is tuned to allow the tank to actually survive damage to allow the healers to heal the alliance (as Sarth 3D is basically 3 tanks and the whole raid tanking damage at the same time).

Damn it, Aku. You're making me miss WoW raiding. >:O

[Akujima]

Damn it, Aku. You're making me miss WoW raiding. >:O


It was epic I know. The biggest complaint I hear about WoW is the grind in Lvling Up, which isn't all that bad.

PS. I agree with your RDM sig comment~ Also wth don't Ninja's throw shuriken? -_- lol... Final Fantasy is straying too far from its roots.

[Seriha]

Those are great ideas, But they fit more into a Real-time Single Player RPG or FPS tbh. That kind of in-depth fight would be nearly impossible for FFXI. Mostly due to how FFXI plays.

Why? Is conditioned scripting really that difficult? I mean, we've seen similar in the past, like how all you had to do to pop DL in the old Dynamis, busting up 10 gears before they warp to weaken the one chariot, or even some assaults. Most everything should be server-side, so console issues shouldn't be a factor, either.

If it's more about how the interface doesn't really support Many vs. Many, then I'd agree to an extent. It wasn't until recently that we actually got AoE WS worth a damn, but outside of Abyssea their utility also drops off. Minion mobs also shouldn't hit as hard as the NM, nor unconditionally have huge HP pools like Odin's valkyries, as part of this does lead to people just kiting away if it's an option. I don't think it's much of one since it tends to be exploiting poor AI, but then again, you could also call all this an extension of enemy AI.