Why is Guarding just so...bad?

[Paksenarrion]

I've always had a bit of an issue with guarding. Before Abyssea, there were some things that I tanked, nothing overly hard, but literally every time I would get a guard skill up, I'd state it out to my LS. Even today, other MNKs in my group have adopted the same joke.

Getting guard skill ups is horrible. Even worse, at CAP, you'll only guard 10% of the time.

I liken Guarding to Shield skill. Both are meant to be a defensive capability when a mob is attacking you. In my length of time in FFXI, I've seem at least two changes to Shield skill, upping rates of blocking, increasing skill gain, and even a spell to increase shield blocks and reflect damage. If Guarding has changed at all, I don't recall this happening.

PLD were meant to be a tank, and it's understandable that they should have more reliance on shields. Times have changed though, and MNK has become a big contender in the tanking field. I think it's time to give a second look at Guarding skill. Make it better in some form. I'm not sure exactly what to change about it, but it's one of a MNK's two defensive capabilities (The other being Counter.).

Please consider taking a look at guarding skill again. I'm sure many MNKs would love you for it. =)

[Glamdring]

pups would like it too!

[Lynchilles]

Getting guard skill ups is horrible. Even worse, at CAP, you'll only guard 10% of the time.

Please post tested support for your statistics.

[Neisan_Quetz]

10% was being generous, if it's similar to parry than it's closer to 5% on tougher mobs, potentially more on anything below VT.

[Lynchilles]

10% was being generous, if it's similar to parry than it's closer to 5% on tougher mobs, potentially more on anything below VT.

That's pretty much what I have seen from more than a few people on BG that have capped Guard.

I wouldn't ask SE to touch Guard to be honest. Monk is extremely powerful now and an incredibly good tank both in and out of Abyssea. The only possible way I can see a Monk making Guard work for them on anything that matters is by capping guard and stacking a lot of +Guard Skill gear, which would be counterproductive to say the least. The faster I can kill my enemy, the less situations I will be in where I would need guard to proc.


Monk is just fine where it is. I wouldn't want SE to adjust anything with Monk at this point because that is when things usually go horribly wrong based on past experiences.

[Paksenarrion]

Can I quote statistics as "This is what I was told and I was inclined to believe?"

There's probably a reason I'm failing my stats class.

Okay, so I pulled a number out of the air from what I had been told in the past. The number is still abysmally low, like Neisan stated. I will honestly state that I am not the right person to quote statistics. I apologize for using a number I have no proof to back up. =(

[Paksenarrion]

Monk is extremely powerful now and an incredibly good tank both in and out of Abyssea. The only possible way I can see a Monk making Guard work for them on anything that matters is by capping guard and stacking a lot of +Guard Skill gear, which would be counterproductive to say the least. The faster I can kill my enemy, the less situations I will be in where I would need guard to proc.

I suppose I can agree with this. I do still think they should look at the rate of guard skill ups, though. It's really, really slow imo.

[Shadotter]

I like the idea of making guard more useful, especially since I've read that it becomes really the only source of defense when using counterstance.

[Leonlionheart]

because mnk needs more defensive statistics.

[Peldin]

because mnk needs more defensive statistics.
Well, we're not invincible yet, and we can't one-shot everything yet... so we still need plenty of upgrades. (sarcasm intended)

[Swords]

10% was being generous, if it's similar to parry than it's closer to 5% on tougher mobs, potentially more on anything below VT.

I'd say guard procs about 5% of the time, I can get parry to proc and skillup about 10-15% of the time. The sad thing is... my parry is about 115 and my guard is about 200.

[Habiki]

I'd say guard procs about 5% of the time, I can get parry to proc and skillup about 10-15% of the time. The sad thing is... my parry is about 115 and my guard is about 200..

If your parry procced that much it your skill would be much higher then 115 its at most 3% - 7% proc rate I'm at 321 parry skill atm and skill ups have pretty much stopped only get decent skill ups on VT mobs or Notorius monsters. Decent being the occasional .2 or .3 every 3-4 hrs if i see any at all for the day or week for that matter. One thing to consider about parry is it doesn't just activate when it says in the chat log "player parrys the enemys attack" it also effects accuracy of enemy tp moves, I imagine guard works to the same extent as this.

One things for certain the skill up rate of these to defensive abilitys need to be improved some maybe increase them to the lvl at which shield skills up.

On the subject of guard I can't really add much my mnks only lvl 21, didn't jump on the bandwagon.

[Segasaturn]

Guard for me has been a handy skill to have when tanking solo... that is enough to want it to be a functional on top of that my skill is now 250 and i see it proc on bosses and other hard mobs while its NOT alot, it helps....
My biggest problem is Skilling up Guard spending years in a zone trying to Get it to skill up is not ok... it shouldnt be THAt hard... Guard should Natually lvl with teh job as you play it SE needs to fix this...

[Lazus]

I think they should give mnk and pup some kind of guard mastery which would increase guard rate and give tp when you block.

[Kyrial]

I think they should give mnk and pup some kind of guard mastery which would increase guard rate and give tp when you block.

They already have Tactical Guard, which gives TP when you guard. :P But yeah, a trait that increased the activation rate (or even a JA that did so) would be very welcome.

[Leonlionheart]

They already have Tactical Guard, which gives TP when you guard. :P But yeah, a trait that increased the activation rate (or even a JA that did so) would be very welcome.

Hmmm...

Opposite of counterstance:

Guardstance: 5min recast 5min duration: increases the rate of guard by 50% but reduces defense to base and puts counter rate at 0%. Maybe up KA to scale it to even usable...

[Greatguardian]

Why would I want a 55% guard rate (reducing but still taking damage) with a 0% Counter rate when I can have a 75% Counter rate (Not taking damage and dealing hate-free damage) with a 5% Guard rate?

[Leonlionheart]

Why would I want a 55% guard rate (reducing but still taking damage) with a 0% Counter rate when I can have a 75% Counter rate (Not taking damage and dealing hate-free damage) with a 5% Guard rate?

Looks like you underestimate the power of Guard...

honest answer: Guard actually blocks physical WSs too, completely nullifying damage. So 55% would be way too much in actuality. Not only that but Guard cuts down pDIF by 1.0, meaning it would actually reduce damage over time by huge, huge, huge amounts when stacked with an easily obtainable high PDT set. Against mobs that you can't counter against (Iron giants, Shinryu, high accuracy/evasion enemies) this ability would probably make MNK invincible.

So really it could be useful, though not in Abyssea, and probably overpowered outside Abyssea.

[Lynchilles]

Or, when the mob readies it's TP move, you can, I don't know... just run out of range and take essentially zero damage?

[Swords]

.

If your parry procced that much it your skill would be much higher then 115 its at most 3% - 7% proc rate I'm at 321 parry skill atm and skill ups have pretty much stopped only get decent skill ups on VT mobs or Notorius monsters. Decent being the occasional .2 or .3 every 3-4 hrs if i see any at all for the day or week for that matter. One thing to consider about parry is it doesn't just activate when it says in the chat log "player parrys the enemys attack" it also effects accuracy of enemy tp moves, I imagine guard works to the same extent as this.


Yeah about that, being I'm a Monk I'm usually using H2H weapons 95% of the time. Most skillups I get are from randomly tanking while triggiering.

[Leonlionheart]

Or, when the mob readies it's TP move, you can, I don't know... just run out of range and take essentially zero damage?

lol because every TP move has a 5 second readying stage...

Unlike all the strong physical TP moves used in FFXI.

[Greatguardian]

Looks like you underestimate the power of Guard...

honest answer: Guard actually blocks physical WSs too, completely nullifying damage. So 55% would be way too much in actuality. Not only that but Guard cuts down pDIF by 1.0, meaning it would actually reduce damage over time by huge, huge, huge amounts when stacked with an easily obtainable high PDT set. Against mobs that you can't counter against (Iron giants, Shinryu, high accuracy/evasion enemies) this ability would probably make MNK invincible.

So really it could be useful, though not in Abyssea, and probably overpowered outside Abyssea.

I'd find it niche at best, mainly for NMs like Shinryu and Ironclads where countering just is not an option. Perhaps it would be more viable if there were more mobs/NMs where countering wasn't viable, but at the moment are there really that many with Acc/Eva high enough to throttle counter rates low enough for this to be more beneficial than simply Counterstance-tanking?

Guardstance also severely cuts into Mnk's offensive output by eliminating counter damage (which in turn affects their defense, fight lasts longer, etc). Do we really need to turtle that badly? May as well just come Paladin if things are that nasty.

[Leonlionheart]

I'd find it niche at best, mainly for NMs like Shinryu and Ironclads where countering just is not an option. Perhaps it would be more viable if there were more mobs/NMs where countering wasn't viable, but at the moment are there really that many with Acc/Eva high enough to throttle counter rates low enough for this to be more beneficial than simply Counterstance-tanking?

Guardstance also severely cuts into Mnk's offensive output by eliminating counter damage (which in turn affects their defense, fight lasts longer, etc). Do we really need to turtle that badly? May as well just come Paladin if things are that nasty.

I'm not a dev, just throwing out ideas.

Instead maybe:

Perfect Guard: 1min (Shared with Perfect Counter). Guard the next 3 hits, but makes you unable to counter them.

I can see that allowing MNK to tank to some extent outside abyssea even more than it already can.

[Peldin]

Guardstance also severely cuts into Mnk's offensive output by eliminating counter damage
Severely cuts in to our offensive output? Perhaps you severely overestimate the damage we do with counters. Unless you are fighting a mob that uses Hundred Fists or has high tripple attack rate, Counter doesn't do much over 2% of our total damage.

[Cream_Soda]

Guard actually blocks physical WSs too, completely nullifying damage.

Actually, it doesn't. It'll say the move missed in the chat log, but you'll still take damage from the attack, reduced damage of course, but damage.

There's no reason to want a high guard rate at the exchange of a 0% counter rate.

[Greatguardian]

Severely cuts in to our offensive output? Perhaps you severely overestimate the damage we do with counters. Unless you are fighting a mob that uses Hundred Fists or has high tripple attack rate, Counter doesn't do much over 2% of our total damage.

2%? I must be doinitwrong.

[Leonlionheart]

Actually, it doesn't. It'll say the move missed in the chat log, but you'll still take damage from the attack, reduced damage of course, but damage.

There's no reason to want a high guard rate at the exchange of a 0% counter rate.

My mistake, either way I'm just throwing out ideas. Still, no other ability other than pure physical damage taken-, sentinel and phalanx reduces the damage of physical enemy TP moves.

[Cream_Soda]

You can shield tp moves, too. Also plain regular defense lowers it as well >.>

Not like its anything special

[Leonlionheart]

You can shield tp moves, too. Also plain regular defense lowers it as well >.>

Not like its anything special

That's why you don't gear for it, but if you had it 100% for a certain number of hits...

idk man I'm just throwing out ideas to make guarding useful at all D:

[Cream_Soda]

Up its proc rate through JT or naturally. It shouldn't need a job ability to make it useful.

[Kristal]

Hmmm...

Opposite of counterstance:

Guardstance: 5min recast 5min duration: increases the rate of guard by 50% but reduces defense to base and puts counter rate at 0%. Maybe up KA to scale it to even usable...

That's kind of silly... Guard lowers your damage, but then you still get hit for almost double damage, so it's cancelling itself out..

Guardstance would increase Guard at the cost of Evasion. You get hit more, but for far less.

[Lynchilles]

Guardstance would increase Guard at the cost of Evasion. You get hit more, but for far less.

Now you 'trollin

[katz]

Opponent's attack must bypass character's evasion, shadows (Blink/Utsusemi), and counter for this trait to trigger. You arent saying what sub you have on but this could be one reason why it is slow to increase.

[Leonlionheart]

Guardstance would increase Guard at the cost of Evasion. You get hit more, but for far less.

Guardstance was a pretty bad idea in the first place, but only losing evasion just seems a bit overpowered.

I agree with Cream_soda, you shouldn't need a JA to make it useful. I don't know if upping it's activation rate would be the right thing to do though, since MNK is already pretty defensive.

[Peldin]

According to the 2010 Census:


Up until now, mages had been at the top of the rankings, but this year, they were surpassed by the damage-dealing monk and warrior,


For defensive skills, evasion is once again the single most popular upgrade. We believe that this is due to evasion being the only defensive skill shared by all jobs.

So, monk is the most popular main job now, yet there are more people who merit THROWING than Guard. And they think it's dude to the fact that evasion is shared by all jobs...

Sorry guys, looks like Guard will not be fixed in our life time.

[Rearden]

@Capped Parry, the proc rate is still only 5%

Can't test guard @cap, but I've got 11% proc in a parse against Chloris across ~1500 attacks

I would say that's pretty useful, considering my guard is just under 200.

[Cream_Soda]

Luck, really, larger sample size will even out to that 5% of parry

[Akenara]

Giving props to a Monk legend who was tanking and destroying things on Mnk back in the 75 cap pre-abyssea days.

Check out the journal for the Mnk Genome on Diabolos Server.

This is one of the old mnks out there who can say they have pretty much done it all without atmas and cruor buffs.

If you still think guard sucks after this then you should change to a different job.

http://genomeffxi.livejournal.com/18269.html

[Cream_Soda]

Genome was a slightly above average (note that when I say average mnk, I mean the ones you get on average when you do a pick up pt) mnk and a fool, lol.

The guy actually thought agi increased kick attack rates and used to advocate osode over togi even when acc was not capped.

The only way you're going to get guard to proc on any monster that matters (T or higher) is to whore guard+ gear in every slot. PDT beats it in that case, as well as evasion, not to mention losing your DD gear.

Is the mob even match or under? Eva is the obvious choice. Not getting hit > getting hit and its easy to obtain a good evasion rate on weaker mobs. Not to mention they hit for such a low amount of damage, it doesn't matter.

Again, to the tough mobs. Capped guard vs 0 guard, you're going to get the same guard rate, the 5% base, UNLESS you gear guard in a bunch of slots, which is counter productive and not worth it.


If you still think guard sucks after this then you should change to a different job.
Main Job SAM lv. 90Stick w/ that


Edit: Look even in his own entry

Guard activation is very dependent on your enemy's stats and your AGI. Even with high guard you should load up on AGI and should expect reduced guard against monsters with high melee stats (especially high-DEX monsters).

Falls into that category I gave earlier of anything T or higher.

Yes, you can get super high guard rates on EM, decent challenge, easy prey, and too weak, but who cares?

[Greatguardian]

Cream Soda is right, and more gentle than he looks.

[Akenara]

Genome was a slightly above average (note that when I say average mnk, I mean the ones you get on average when you do a pick up pt) mnk and a fool, lol.

The guy actually thought agi increased kick attack rates and used to advocate osode over togi even when acc was not capped.

The only way you're going to get guard to proc on any monster that matters (T or higher) is to whore guard+ gear in every slot. PDT beats it in that case, as well as evasion, not to mention losing your DD gear.

Is the mob even match or under? Eva is the obvious choice. Not getting hit > getting hit and its easy to obtain a good evasion rate on weaker mobs. Not to mention they hit for such a low amount of damage, it doesn't matter.

Again, to the tough mobs. Capped guard vs 0 guard, you're going to get the same guard rate, the 5% base, UNLESS you gear guard in a bunch of slots, which is counter productive and not worth it.

Stick w/ that


Edit: Look even in his own entry


Falls into that category I gave earlier of anything T or higher.

Yes, you can get super high guard rates on EM, decent challenge, easy prey, and too weak, but who cares?




“Above Average” huh!? so what is your claim to being any decent at monk at all?

I hardly call anyone with the time and dedication to at least parse and study the mechanics only "above average".

As for the Togi VS Osode argument this goes back years and K. Osode is clearly a better more well rounded offensive and defensive body armor then Shura Togi. Shura Togi clearly has higher dmg per hit, however since this thread is talking about defensive skills for monk, specifically guard, I fail to see where having slightly higher dmg per hit has anything to do with this topic. The stats on the armors themselves prove that. There is no need for parsing to figure that out. The ignorant comment is not worth further mention.

Do you have any parse data that actually backs up your statement that AGI does not increase kick attack rate? He did test it and there "appeared" to be a slight increase. The statistics and small percentages really don't matter just like arguing semantics with a troll is pointless as well.

As far as your focus on Guarding against EM or T or better, once you have capped guard skill and can actually provide some data to back up your claims of only a 5% guard proc rate VS EM and T with capped skill.

You failed to point out the fact that you can "guard" mob TP moves as well which in its self is pretty unique. For the most part you cant parry TP moves and negate them completely.

So again post some useful data to back up your claims or go back on the bandwagon like the rest.

[Cream_Soda]

Cream Soda is right, and more gentle than he looks.
LOL, good one

[Cream_Soda]

As for the Togi VS Osode argument this goes back years and K. Osode is clearly a better more well rounded offensive and defensive body armor then Shura Togi. Shura Togi clearly has higher dmg per hit, however since this thread is talking about defensive skills for monk, specifically guard, I fail to see where having slightly higher dmg per hit has anything to do with this topic.
I was talking about the guy's credibility. He didn't say it was better mix of offense and defense. He said it was better for dealing damage and it is not (and was not at the time). His "extensive testing" said Osode was better dmg, lol.



Do you have any parse data that actually backs up your statement that AGI does not increase kick attack rate? He did test it and there "appeared" to be a slight increase. The statistics and small percentages really don't matter just like arguing semantics with a troll is pointless as well.
He was already proven wrong a long time ago on wiki forums by Kinematics, and then he even went to test again on his own and ended up recanting, after swearing by it for as long as he did.


As far as your focus on Guarding against EM or T or better, once you have capped guard skill and can actually provide some data to back up your claims of only a 5% guard proc rate VS EM and T with capped skill.
I said T+ not EM. I said you could get good guard rates on EM or lower. Even then, I point you back to your god's post

Guard activation is very dependent on your enemy's stats and your AGI. Even with high guard you should load up on AGI and should expect reduced guard against monsters with high melee stats (especially high-DEX monsters).




I'm not really interested in capping guard again to provide you with some data. It was capped at 75, a waste of time (aside from ballista, actually had use there, but nobody does that anymore) and have no interest in capping it again. I know exactly how useful it was, as I had it capped for over 2 years.


You failed to point out the fact that you can "guard" mob TP moves as well which in its self is pretty unique. For the most part you cant parry TP moves and negate them completely.
I don't see how it's unique, as you can also proc shield on ws' and it only negates the first hit, something you won't find in genome's "extensive testing". Go get hit by chomp rush, pecking flurry, fang rush, etc. You can still get guard skill ups and will notice a decrease in the damage taken, but you still take damage.


So again post some useful data to back up your claims or go back on the bandwagon like the rest.
lol, bandwagon. I've been mnk since day 1. As I said before, stick with sam.

[Cream_Soda]

“Above Average” huh!? so what is your claim to being any decent at monk at all?
To answer this question. Being knowledgeable of the game mechanics and even if you don't have the best gear, know what you should be aiming for and trying to make progress towards that.

So, at lv 75, if you have a triumph earring instead of a merman's, it shows you don't know what you're doing, even if you had byakko's bkote, etc. or even full usu as merman's was not only better, but cheaper.

So, if you're 75 and don't have bkote, so you have okote and are going after bkote, maybe have a chiv chain but saving money for that pcc or farming pops for faith; maybe can't afford sniper+1, but not using flame ring over nq sniper, etc and knowing what is good and making somewhat of an attempt in order to get that, then you're good in my book.

Genome would be in example 1, as he thought osode was BETTER FOR DEALING DAMAGE, that AGI increased kick rate (which he was proven wrong on and recanted himself), etc. Just because he did parses and had a blog doesn't mean he knew what he was doing.

[Lynchilles]

“Above Average” huh!? so what is your claim to being any decent at monk at all?

I hardly call anyone with the time and dedication to at least parse and study the mechanics only "above average".

As for the Togi VS Osode argument this goes back years and K. Osode is clearly a better more well rounded offensive and defensive body armor then Shura Togi. Shura Togi clearly has higher dmg per hit, however since this thread is talking about defensive skills for monk, specifically guard, I fail to see where having slightly higher dmg per hit has anything to do with this topic. The stats on the armors themselves prove that. There is no need for parsing to figure that out. The ignorant comment is not worth further mention.

Do you have any parse data that actually backs up your statement that AGI does not increase kick attack rate? He did test it and there "appeared" to be a slight increase. The statistics and small percentages really don't matter just like arguing semantics with a troll is pointless as well.

As far as your focus on Guarding against EM or T or better, once you have capped guard skill and can actually provide some data to back up your claims of only a 5% guard proc rate VS EM and T with capped skill.

You failed to point out the fact that you can "guard" mob TP moves as well which in its self is pretty unique. For the most part you cant parry TP moves and negate them completely.

So again post some useful data to back up your claims or go back on the bandwagon like the rest.


The intricacies of Monk have been discussed for years on other forums and CreamSoda (TW) has been a huge contributor to many of those discussions. There are also several other monks with capped guard who confirm this data with their own tests.

Genome quite simply had unfortunately misguided ideas. And as far as videos go, If I could edit video footage too, I can probably make you believe that Guard was 100% proc rate. Genome's videos were extremely selective footage which were designed to give highly impressionable morons like yourself false conclusions.

Cream Soda has no reason to prove anything to you with data because everything he says has already been throroughly discussed and agreed upon beforehand on multiple forums such as BlueGartr, Allakazham, FFXIAH, etc. (I am probably missing a few that I don't read as much).

You obviously haven't done your homework. So shut up and go away. Go learn what you are talking about before you attempt to make yourself look smart.

[Paksenarrion]

If you still think guard sucks after this then you should change to a different job.

Looked at it a few years ago. Got bored. Data is boring. MNK is more playable than other jobs, even prior to Abyssea. Not switching.

Just want Guard to proc more. And skill up more.

And before anyone questions if I actually know how to gear a MNK, yes, I do. My gear data from LS Community is a bit off at the moment because I was tinkering with things, plus wanting movement speed from the pants. I pay enough attention to data to know what I need to do, but I do not understand the intricacies and statistics involved in such.

[Cream_Soda]

but you wear af2!

[Paksenarrion]

It's pretty and Empyrean armor didn't exist when I got that commission!

...I don't think Salvage existed when I got that commission. =o

My level 75 draenei MNK is a bit closer to how I was geared at 75. (http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a227/Kilea/Achika%20pics/dreaneicomplete.png)

[Franklyn]

I am curious about the potential of guarding. Not just estimates. I realize capping takes time, anyone have guard capped for 90 and tried it out in abyssea? With the use of atmas that changes things greatly from what it was like at 75 with capped guard skill. Mostly interested in seeing how a guarding MNK handles different ironclads and shinryu. Not saying guarding MNK is end all be all, just want to see for myself; instead of editted vids and mindless bickering.

[Cream_Soda]

With the use of atmas that changes things greatly from what it was like at 75 with capped guard skill.

There are no atma that directly influence guard, so I don't see why you'd expect capped guard at 75 to be any diff than capped guard at 90.

[Franklyn]

Atmas allow a different testing environment, before abyssea came out there weren't a load of jobs that can solo VT and IT mobs. Now you can do that with any job. Try AGI atmas, regen atmas, DD atmas, a blend of the 3 to see how guarding MNK differs from counterstance monk, damage wise and defense wise. Slightly easier to test in abyssea when you have atmas to keep you alive, than outside of abyssea where you would need to be PLed continually.

[Cream_Soda]

If you have to take your offensive atma off, it's pointless. Why lower damage to guard when you can counter and still be one of the top DDs in the game? Besides, 70%+ counter rate is easily obtainable, let's say you could get a 70% guard rate (which you can't).

Which mitigates more damage? 70% of the time of taking 0 damage (as well as dealing damage yourself) or 70% of the time taking reduced damage?

Besides, you wouldn't even need have capped guard to test this. Capped guard for 75? Go to the lv 80 monsters in the earlier abyssea zones, fight mobs that are IT to a lv 75 mnk. Could test just like that, lol.

[Franklyn]

Like I said I'm more interested in learning about guarding MNKs against Ironclads and Shin, things you can't counter. And its more of a test thing to see what the results are, I've tanked as PLD and NIN. I've seen WAR blood tank, I've seen MNK blood tank. More interested in seeing a MNK act like a PLD but put out slightly better numbers damage wise, or atleast see them hold their own for a longer amount of time than straight blood tanking.

[Cream_Soda]

Even in that case, you'd be far better off in PDT than in guard+ gear, lol

[Franklyn]

Probably right but its the visual confirmation I'm looking for. I don't have much room to comment on MNK, I just got it to 75 recently. Have been working on guarding skill for the last couple weeks. Need 77 and some of that food that increases skill rate to speed it up. 75 MNK with 235 guard skill.

[Paksenarrion]

Just an FYI, SE made a comment about adjusting the difficulty of gaining Parry skill in their thread for DRK. I made a post regarding an adjustment to Guard as another thing they can look into. You can find that post here, with the original quote and link to the source.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/12417-Adjustments-to-gaining-Parry-Skill...what-about-Guard?p=160765#post160765

[Michae]

You can skill up guard just fine as a pup, so all you mnk who lolpup need to take a look at the fast ways pups can skill it up. There are vids and techniques out there, but at the same time u need to lvl pup to do it. Which also entails spending a bit of money on the job and camping some nm for gear like we used to do pre-aby. I was able to get my guard skill up just fine as pup using the pup quick guard skills methods that are all over the net to stay caught up as I lvled it. Just do a google search. Who knows maybe it will even give you more appreciation for the job if you give it a chance and not just complain about having to play it. Its really not that bad if ppl can get past their bias and actually learn the job.

[Anza]

You can skill up guard just fine as a pup, so all you mnk who lolpup need to take a look at the fast ways pups can skill it up.

As a PUP main and a lv90 MNK who had near capped guard at 75 thanks to LOTS of solo time on PUP in 2006-2009... it's still hell to skill up guard on PUP. And Guard still sucks, making it a waste of time to bother with in my opinion.

I'm willing to bet that there always something you can do to improve yourself more than going out with the intent of skilling up guard. If you get skillups while you're doing something else, cool. But don't make a point to focus on guard or you will be disappointed.

[Cursed]

because mnk needs more defensive statistics.
I suppose you would prefer it if WAR got some decent native defense abilities/traits?
ofc, so they could just zerg shit without needing any support and down everything in 30-45 seconds with no real penalties or challenge.

[TRiPP]

I enjoy this conversation. I think it's comical as hell to be honest.
However, I don't understand why some people are getting so overly defensive over asking for some visual proof. Anyone can say things, and even if it's researched, people would still like to witness it. Because even with the proper data and proof to prove what you're stating is in fact truth. People just want to witness it so that they can pick up on a few things. They're not going to just go there to cheer you on, they're going there to see what equipment you have, and ask you which atmas you're using, etc. Essentially, it's like your monk going in and dealing let's just pull out a random number 20K without a brew on a Victory Smite. (Reread that in case, you're feeling illiterate and wondering how it would be possible for a Monk to deal that much damage. In fact. Let me make it easier for those who like to jump to conclusion.) Sure, your party saw it, but will anyone else believe you? Even if you had stacked up the proper Strength, and proper atmas? Hell no.

Everyone learns differently, it shouldn't be any surprise that it would be the same with anything statistics wise. Because sometimes seeing is more believing then taking someone's word without showing them a visual. Either way, I'm enjoying this conversation. Please continue. Just thought I'd jump in and say something. In b4 puffing your face like a balloon and getting offended because I'm letting you know that people learn things differently, remember. I'm not attempting to prove you wrong. I'm just helping alleviate miscommunication. While Guard may be completely useless or not useless at all. (Not choosing a side to be honest.) The blue number is still nice.



I suppose you would prefer it if WAR got some decent native defense abilities/traits?
ofc, so they could just zerg shit without needing any support and down everything in 30-45 seconds with no real penalties or challenge.

Ahaha, that my friend is called an FC Party. However, and unfortunately it requires a Red Mage. Or sooner or later a White mage. Because they'll eventually give WHM Phalanx as well.
However, the question stands do they need that many traits of Fencer? Seems like such a waste on a job that mains a two handed weapon. (For warrior mind you.)

Regardless, take it as you will. Offensive or not. Just thought I'd point it out. Take it easy.

[Malacite]

If you have to take your offensive atma off, it's pointless. Why lower damage to guard when you can counter and still be one of the top DDs in the game? Besides, 70%+ counter rate is easily obtainable, let's say you could get a 70% guard rate (which you can't).

Which mitigates more damage? 70% of the time of taking 0 damage (as well as dealing damage yourself) or 70% of the time taking reduced damage?

Besides, you wouldn't even need have capped guard to test this. Capped guard for 75? Go to the lv 80 monsters in the earlier abyssea zones, fight mobs that are IT to a lv 75 mnk. Could test just like that, lol.

Until you get hit by something like Spike Flail or Ruinous Scythe, in which case Guard can end up negating the damage altogether (it can "block" WS)

[Cream_Soda]

Until you get hit by something like Spike Flail or Ruinous Scythe, in which case Guard can end up negating the damage altogether (it can "block" WS)
You post with incorrect information. It can block the first hit of a ws. Spike flail, you should never be getting hit by in the first place.

Ruinous Scythe, is 4 hits, you're not going to negate it with guard.

[Serj]

Until you get hit by something like Spike Flail or Ruinous Scythe, in which case Guard can end up negating the damage altogether (it can "block" WS)

Spike Flail is dangerous? I tank wyrms at that end so they solely/mainly use spike flail (in abyssea). Outside, how often do you fight wyrms? And you fight them so they don't use it.

[Cream_Soda]

Almost forgot about that. Dragua doesn't do flail :(, but yea if you're talking about Abyssea flail, shit ain't dangerous anyways.

[Franklyn]

Well, after a month of going out to random places for a few hours a night after events. Guarding is finally 354. Haven't had much room to test it yet besides when I was skilling. For anyone looking to skill their guard heres a summary of tactics.

LVL 75 __ 190 - 240 guard skill - The Boyahda Tree - Black Mandies
LVL 80 __ 240-285 - Abyssea La Theine - Hadal Gigas
LVL 85 - 90 285 - 354 Abyssea Altepa - Mandies, Abyssea Attowha Mandies/chigoes (whichever camps were least occupied)

Atmas - Mounted Champion, Savior, Sea Daughter
I had some help on the mandies in the boyahda tree but did the others solo. at 80~ the Gigas in la theine start off IT but after you kill a few they drop down in level usually. /DNC whenever I was solo, Sea daughter helped stay alive and Chakra along with atmas gave a decent cure boost when I overpulled. Tried the different skill up foods and have the skill up ring. Can't tell you if it made a difference or not, but I'd like to think so. I chose to skill while I leveled up so evasion stayed close to guard skill. Occasionally I reduced evasion merits since nothing else to use merits on. A friend took his pup and RDM mule out and skilled solely in altep and got his guarding to 290 that way but he had about 15 mandies on him at a time. If you have the means to do that, go for it. He went from 200-290 in 2 days. Start with small groups if you're solo and work your way up to see how many you can handle at a time. Know when the mobs seem to be a little more inaccurate and take off some gear accordingly like boxer's mantle. Abyssea mob levels vary widely so be prepared accordingly and take notes on what the mobs con as you pull them in and what seems to be giving you skills the best.

Side note: Started on parry skills more vigorously. I would have to say this skill seems much harder to skill than guarding. Anyone with War leveled can get it to 290 fairly easy by /DNC pulling loads of mandies and skilling up weapons with pretty much the same atmas. But once it caps for war it seems to be a little harder to work on. The jobs with the better parry skills have the defensive skills of paper. DRG and PLD are durable but cap at 310 I believe. I tried Sam/DNC seems to be ok but evasion noticably higher and mobs miss 15 times to every 1 parry and you'd go 20 parries before ever seeing a skill. Tested atma of the roaring laughter, it seemed to help with parrying more and evading less but skills are still far apart. Parry Skill 316 as of August 20th. Hope this helps anyone looking to cap there skills.

[Xilk]

There are no atma that directly influence guard, so I don't see why you'd expect capped guard at 75 to be any diff than capped guard at 90.

Atma of the Ducal Guard:
(Guard) Damage Taken -: Major

but yeah, this doesn't affect guard rate.

[Economizer]

Side note: Started on parry skills more vigorously. I would have to say this skill seems much harder to skill than guarding. Anyone with War leveled can get it to 290 fairly easy by /DNC pulling loads of mandies and skilling up weapons with pretty much the same atmas. But once it caps for war it seems to be a little harder to work on. The jobs with the better parry skills have the defensive skills of paper. DRG and PLD are durable but cap at 310 I believe. I tried Sam/DNC seems to be ok but evasion noticably higher and mobs miss 15 times to every 1 parry and you'd go 20 parries before ever seeing a skill. Tested atma of the roaring laughter, it seemed to help with parrying more and evading less but skills are still far apart. Parry Skill 316 as of August 20th. Hope this helps anyone looking to cap there skills.

I forget if you can or not, but if you can get parry skillups while taking no damage, just stack 50% PDT- gear, equip a dagger, and Aeolian Edge things. Get someone to Phallanx you and heal you. Good way to farm chest KI while you are skilling. I don't know about Parrying, but I know a Paladin who capped shield this way.

[Franklyn]

Capped Parry on the 26th, stayed with the same atmas, roaring laughter for the -eva, sea daughter for steady TP for healing and slower attacks, and Savior for the boost to AGI mostly but also for the mini heals in between. Didn't take long, total time I spent working on it from 316 was about 10~ hours I suppose, got a few tiger king hides for my dagger trials and broke even with NPCing weapons for the food used to skill. Feels good to finally look at THF, NIN, DNC, MNK and PLD and finally say I'm completely capped for 90.... except divine magic skill ><.

[Ophannus]

Guarding sucks because counter is so good and you guys have dodge and high ass HP. What does DRG have in terms of damage mitigation -_-

[Gokku]

the ability to drop ass loads of enmity , seigan / third eye / healing breath / gtfo loldrg