hate cap raise.

[Alukat]

i know there are some threads about it, but sadly i can't find them atm.

the actual hate cap is really annoying and makes it almost impossible to play thf in the full efficient way.

We did KCNM 50 last night our setup was this:

WAR
PUP
WHM
RDM
THF
DNC

war was meleeing and using ws.then i used trick attack + mercy stroke on him.
after that i used sneak attack + mercy stroke.
then he was unable to get hate back neither with provoke nor with another trick attack + mercy stroke.

so pls raise the hate cap, or make provoke bypass the hate cap.i would really like to be able to sneak attack + mercy stroke all time on mobs which have some more hp!!

thx :)

[Catsby]

The enmity system is for level 75 cap. Back then monsters didn't have 100k HP and joedamagedealer didn't do 30k damage in a minute zerging because his healers had infinite mp. Caps don't need to be raised the entire system needs to be readjusted.

[Arcon]

The enmity system is for level 75 cap. Back then monsters didn't have 100k HP and joedamagedealer didn't do 30k damage in a minute zerging because his healers had infinite mp. Caps don't need to be raised the entire system needs to be readjusted.

Agreed. It isn't too hard to do either, apparently SE already revamped the enmity system before when it was needed. So no reason why they couldn't do it again. Hate cap raise wouldn't do much for it though.

[Atomic_Skull]

Give THF reverse a reverse collaborator that gives another party member 33% of your enmity and can exceed the enmity cap by 20%.

[Malamasala]

Easiest solution is of course to nerf everyones damage.

[Garota]

Hate Cap doesn't matter, every single damned NM has hate reset attacks... So it'd just be pointless... Let the BLMs tanks along with the WHMs...

[Atomic_Skull]

Hate Cap doesn't matter, every single damned NM has hate reset attacks... So it'd just be pointless... Let the BLMs tanks along with the WHMs...


It's only pointless if it's an AOE hate reset. Most are single target so you just have two tanks. e.g. that pixie in Grauburg that drops DRK seals who's name I can never remember.

[Camate]

We brought up the topic of hate issues with the development team and they shed some light on their current direction. They mentioned that if they were to simply increase the hate cap in general, there would be a high possibility that it would cause the balance to become worse than it is currently. If they went another route and increased the hate cap only for specific jobs, it would also be a large contributor to a collapse of game balance, so they do not have any plans of doing this.

Unfortunately, raising the hate cap is really not a proper means of solving this hard to solve problem. As a general direction, the development team will be focused on making adjustments so that each job can properly play their role. Ex: tanks can tank, healers can heal, etc.

[thefinalrune]

The only other solution, as far as I can figure, is to then do a big reduction in the enmity gain rate. Nerf down all enmity generating actions across the board. If you can't raise the cap, make it harder and more time consuming to get there.

[Alhanelem]

The hate cap is never a problem before level 75 or so. So what you're saying is that balance should be different at high levels and that everyone that does damage should be forced to restrain themselves? Also, certain jobs, such as PLD, having a small advantage in this area would do nothing to game balance other than make that job more viable as a tank, WHICH IS WHAT IT WAS DESIGNED TO BE and currently IS NOT AS GOOD at it as it should be.

Hate really shouldn't have a cap in the first place.

[Francisco]

Currently there is Cumulative Enmity (CE) and Volatile Enmity (VE). CE typically builds up and stays with you, and is pretty much only lost by taking damage (or using JAs that effect enmity, THF has some... and Enmity Douse). VE rapidly decays, and generally serves as a hate spike. Kaeko has done a lot of testing on this.

My knee-jerk suggestion is to change the way enmity is accumulated and deteriorated across the board for all jobs, actions, spells and abilities.


The first step would be to define a list of tanking actions in battle (what is the behavior of a tank?). These do not necessarily need to be current tanking actions. A quick, incomplete list of my suggestions would be Provoke, Flash, Shield Bash, Ninjutsu Enfeebles, Chi Blast, Sneak Attack and Animated Flourish. These abilities should have a significantly slower VE deterioration rate compared to a melee attack. In conjunction with this, I would make the following adjustments to these abilities:

Shield Bash: Recast time significantly lowered to 60 seconds. Creates a huge spike of VE, deteriorates very slowly. Merits will lower the recast by three seconds each down to 45 seconds.

Chi Blast: Recast time significantly lowered to 60 seconds. Creates a moderately large spike of VE, deteriorates somewhat slowly. Penance merits will now effect the potency of the TP down effect, and lower recast by three seconds each down to 45 seconds.

Sneak Attack: Recast stays at 60 seconds, but merits adjusted to possibly lower recast to 30 seconds (each merit would shave 6 seconds off the timer). VE generated by a critical hit under Sneak Attack will be multiplied by 5. If used in conjunction with Trick Attack, the 5x hate multiplier will apply to the person the THF chose to Trick Attack off of.

Counterattacks: These will generate extra enmity.

The second step would be to determine how enmity deteriorates. I think as a general rule, enmity for non-tanking actions (melee damage) should deteriorate somewhat faster - but in tiers. The higher your VE, the slower it deteriorates. If a melee player is somewhat reserved and only attacks an enemy occasionally, their VE should be somewhat minimal. If a MNK has been going full blast on a NM for 15 minutes, he shouldn't lose hate so easily. If we break it down into four tiers, it could work as follows.

Tier 1: Low VE - VE is rapidly gained and lost over time.

Tier 2: Moderate VE - VE is rapidly gained, and steadily lost over time.

Tier 3: High VE - VE is steadily gained and steadily lost over time.

Tier 4: Extremely High VE - VE is slowly gained, and somewhat steadily lost over time.

This keeps the pressure on tanks to keep using their hate tools, and gives melee jobs the option to either tank, or rotate with another.

Finally, CE serves as a somewhat balancing factor. I would adjust CE so it serves as a floor for VE. Sure, those cures might not spike hate so easily, but each one slightly pushes up your CE, thus meaning your VE will never deteriorate below that level (until the mob knocks you silly). This would add some necessity towards using reliable tanks, competent mages and effective damage dealers. If a tank requires too much healing, or the fight drags on too long, then the fight will get somewhat chaotic.

This is by no means a complete system - but just a few ideas to change up the dynamic of battles and tanking.

[Atomic_Skull]

We brought up the topic of hate issues with the development team and they shed some light on their current direction. They mentioned that if they were to simply increase the hate cap in general, there would be a high possibility that it would cause the balance to become worse than it is currently. If they went another route and increased the hate cap only for specific jobs, it would also be a large contributor to a collapse of game balance, so they do not have any plans of doing this.

Unfortunately, raising the hate cap is really not a proper means of solving this hard to solve problem. As a general direction, the development team will be focused on making adjustments so that each job can properly play their role. Ex: tanks can tank, healers can heal, etc.


PLD is currently a useless job, without some way to hold hate against hate capped melees it may as well just be deleted from the game because no situation currently exists where you should ever bring a PLD over something else. Having a PLD in your party is quite literally a waste of a party slot.

[Unleashhell]

Well I have to say, Almace sure helps PLD's with hate control. Either way in August, when there is a level cap increase and people actually will have to learn to play their jobs instead of just using Abyssea to level them from 30 to 90. They will have to learn hate control like it was pre-abyssea, being mages wont have infinite MP to cure bomb entire party / alliances.

Also if they don't adjust the enmity on certain spells like Cure spells, there is going to be an issue come level 99 for PLD using a messily cure 4. They will either need to give PLD Cure 5 and adjust the enmity from cure 4 to cure 5 or give PLD a merited Cure Potency that is a pretty substantial percent per merit imo.

[kaht]

The only other solution, as far as I can figure, is to then do a big reduction in the enmity gain rate. Nerf down all enmity generating actions across the board. If you can't raise the cap, make it harder and more time consuming to get there.

Exactly, how is this different than just raising the hate cap? For example, if all actions generate half as much enmity, that's no different than just doubling the hate cap.

edit: spelling

[Alukat]

or adjust "hide" for thf.
recast 1 min, well either it removes 50% enmity of the thf who uses it or give an piece that augments "hide" and gives the "removes 50% enmity"-function.
another way could be a neckpiece as example which could like this:
str+5 dex+ agi+5 (allround necklace ^^)
"augments trick attack"

"augments trick attack" means: 25% of your actual enmity is added (and removed from the thf) to the enmity natural created on tank (or w/e) by using trick attack.

well both ways could help to fix the enmity issue at least on thf.

[Malamasala]

The problem is that you are all stuck looking at enmity. The problem is rather that you can pick an awesome DD and just spam heal it and it will tank. This is what needs changing. You shouldn't be able to deal best damage in the game and live just because you got a healer in the party.

Best damage = death. Should be the rule rather than the exception. DDs should be forced to wear "survival" gear if they want to go all out, instead of just wear full DD gear. Basically you have to dress like a PLD if you want to live, else you'll die.

Easiest way to fix this would be HP adjustments. Lets say a PLD has 2k HP, and a WAR 1k HP. The WAR is much more likely to die than the PLD. But of course WARs should be able to tank also, so they could have Defender give like 500 extra HP for 20 minutes or something, making you better at tanking, at the cost of attack.

[Francisco]

You really need to think outside Abyssea for this - since this is where the game is going to be headed anyway.

Thinking "stacking -damage gear" should be the only way someone is able to tank is kind of backwards 2005 thinking.

As of right now, there's three main methods of tanking: shield/-damage (PLD), evasion/shadows (NIN, THF), counter (MNK). Outside Abyssea, MNK, NIN and THF lose a good deal of their defensive capabilites (largely from Gnarled Horn). PLD loses complete control of the fight inside Abyssea. Outside Abyssea, PLD can mitigate damage much better than a MNK, NIN or THF (especially if they have an Aegis).

Maybe inside Abyssea a DRK can freely tank due WHM having a near infinite MP pool... and most things die in under 5 minutes anyway. But take away the absurd refresh from WHM, and make it a 20-30 minute fight (like on par with Nidhogg in 2005), that DRK is going to be absolutely destroyed if he's getting hit for 300-500 per swing... compared with a PLD taking 150-200 per swing on non-shield blocks, a MNK countering ~65-75% of attacks, or a NIN blinking/evading 80-95% of attacks.

[Darka]

Thinking "stacking -damage gear" should be the only way someone is able to tank is kind of backwards 2005 thinking.

As of right now, there's three main methods of tanking: shield/-damage (PLD), evasion/shadows (NIN, THF), counter (MNK). Outside Abyssea, MNK, NIN and THF lose a good deal of their defensive capabilites (largely from Gnarled Horn). PLD loses complete control of the fight inside Abyssea. Outside Abyssea, PLD can mitigate damage much better than a MNK, NIN or THF (especially if they have an Aegis).


No it doesn't. DD tanks were used long before Abyssea, you just needed people who knew what they were doing, now with infinite MP it's easy. Aside from shield blocks (averaging around 60% of the time, Ochain being the exception) they have the same general defensive abilities other jobs do. Shadows, MDT, PDT.
Also how would a PLD take 200/hit if a DRK is getting hit for 500? You don't understand pdif, or seem to think defense has high returns.

Enmity isn't the problem for PLD, it's the durability of other jobs that are killing it. Why bring a PLD when other jobs won't die, and do more damage at the same time? That's the problem, nothing to do with holding hate. And no, you can't just kill the other jobs' defensive abilities, that would kill lowman and the playerbase probably wouldn't take it. "Fixing" PLD is more complicated that people think.

[Mirage]

Maybe they should make defence actually do something at high def levels? :p

[Darka]

Unfortunately that would just be the same thing, regardless of PLDs defense, other jobs can still tank safely.

[Francisco]

Again, outside of Abyssea - you don't have unlimited MP.

You don't need to take away the option of MNK, NIN and THF tanks to make PLD tanking viable. And saying PLD should be the only tank is like saying DRG should be the only DD and BRD should be the only support.

[Alukat]

we should go back to the old, 2 plds and every dd /thf and sata one of the plds method :p

[Mightyg]

A few things could be done to get plds back a little more balanced.

Increase their damage over time.

Enlight should deal more damage based on MND/magic defense bonus. It should also cause more VE.

Improve weaponskills in general across the board. (this is supposedly being done) Cater mods to be more in line with defensive stats.

Add a high chance to counter to Rampart.

Give pld a Provoke Equivalent JA.

Get rid of Holy Circle and Sepulcher and make them slightly weaker, always on parts of the Undead Killer trait. (do this for all jobs while you're at it.)

Shield bash should do damage proportional to your current defense. 50% bonus on things like aegis, Bash Effects 25% bonus.

Augment Cover to be a reverse Trick Attack, allowing an opportunity for teammates to weaponskill or cast behind you, granting you the enmity.

Cause STR VIT to reduce enmity loss when taking melee damage
Cause INT AGI to increase enmity loss when taking melee damage

Fix divine magic spells to be more in line with black magic, less spells, higher cooldowns, cheaper mp cost, faster cast time. This would be advantageous to whm and pld alike without having the breadth and flexibility of BLM SCH. MND/Magic Defense Bonus mods.

Remove Magic Defense Bonus and Make MND on gear grant .5% magic defense bonus. Boost MND effect on cure potency. Throw in .25% magic evasion per MND point as well.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Again, outside of Abyssea - you don't have unlimited MP.

You don't need to take away the option of MNK, NIN and THF tanks to make PLD tanking viable. And saying PLD should be the only tank is like saying DRG should be the only DD and BRD should be the only support.

And Sam would still be a better tank than Pld outside Abyssea. It's fairly obvious you don't believe other jobs can tank when pre abyssea Pld was still not very useful other than a safety net - the more the rest of the group sucked, the better Pld was at tanking.

[Taint2]

You really need to think outside Abyssea for this - since this is where the game is going to be headed anyway.

Thinking "stacking -damage gear" should be the only way someone is able to tank is kind of backwards 2005 thinking.

As of right now, there's three main methods of tanking: shield/-damage (PLD), evasion/shadows (NIN, THF), counter (MNK). Outside Abyssea, MNK, NIN and THF lose a good deal of their defensive capabilites (largely from Gnarled Horn). PLD loses complete control of the fight inside Abyssea. Outside Abyssea, PLD can mitigate damage much better than a MNK, NIN or THF (especially if they have an Aegis).

Maybe inside Abyssea a DRK can freely tank due WHM having a near infinite MP pool... and most things die in under 5 minutes anyway. But take away the absurd refresh from WHM, and make it a 20-30 minute fight (like on par with Nidhogg in 2005), that DRK is going to be absolutely destroyed if he's getting hit for 300-500 per swing... compared with a PLD taking 150-200 per swing on non-shield blocks, a MNK countering ~65-75% of attacks, or a NIN blinking/evading 80-95% of attacks.

You do realize that DRK,SAM,WAR were all better tanks then PLD well before Abyssea? I've seen decked out PLDs emoquit from not being able to hold hate at Khim,Cerb,Tia etc from DDs.

Looking into the future, huge MP pools are not going away, you will see the addition of a RDM or BRD in tank ptys but, mages can get 15/mp+ tic outside with just a little more support.

[Mirage]

Again, outside of Abyssea - you don't have unlimited MP.

You don't need to take away the option of MNK, NIN and THF tanks to make PLD tanking viable. And saying PLD should be the only tank is like saying DRG should be the only DD and BRD should be the only support.

Actually you do, you just need a support job with you instead of using atmas. You can still get like 20 mp/tick.

[Arcon]

Enmity isn't the problem for PLD, it's the durability of other jobs that are killing it.

Both are problems and just as bad, I might add. Enmity is a major problem and definitely needs fixing, even completely outside of PLD, the system itself is flawed. And other jobs don't tank nearly as well outside of Abyssea. Mages can still get somewhat high refresh, but people also take a lot more damage and have a lot lower HP (and mages a lot lower MP). Some jobs can still get away with it (THF has always performed pretty well, NIN also, MNK may have it a bit worse), others can't do anything anymore (WAR tank with cure spam? Not a chance).

[Vold]

I remember when it was a team effort to keep hate on Paladins because they just weren't built to deal damage, but to take damage. These days people just want SE to do the work for them so they don't have to make any effort. Just make PLD stronger. Yeah, that's the trick. And they keep doing that, making jobs stronger. And it unbalances other aspects. And it keeps repeating itself. All because people want to skip out on playing the game with their minds and just TP spam shit. Good job.

[Darka]

Both are problems and just as bad, I might add. Enmity is a major problem and definitely needs fixing, even completely outside of PLD, the system itself is flawed. And other jobs don't tank nearly as well outside of Abyssea. Mages can still get somewhat high refresh, but people also take a lot more damage and have a lot lower HP (and mages a lot lower MP). Some jobs can still get away with it (THF has always performed pretty well, NIN also, MNK may have it a bit worse), others can't do anything anymore (WAR tank with cure spam? Not a chance).

I was saying enmity accumulation isn't the problem. We've had this discussion before. Even if PLD caps hate, the point is there's no reason to use one since other jobs can tank and deal more damage. That's what's killing PLD. Also, they take the same damage inside and outside Abyssea unless you're stacking VIT/def atmas for some ridiculous reason, and yes, MNK, WAR/SAM, SAM/WAR, DRK/SAM, DRK/NIN, NIN, BLU and RDM all tanked as well as or better than PLD before Abyssea, it just requires a little more care.

[Catsby]

Inside abyssea the problems are that atmas and bosses are too strong. When they were first introduced the bosses were handled like pre abyssea NMs and were about as difficult. Then people started unlocking lunar abyssites and it seems that in order to compensate bosses were given much stronger abilities and stats.

If atmas weren't as strong and bosses didn't have so much HP/overpowered abilities then part of the problem would have been solved. It still doesn't change the fact that the hate system needs an update though.

[Malamasala]

Both are problems and just as bad, I might add. Enmity is a major problem and definitely needs fixing, even completely outside of PLD, the system itself is flawed

What is so flawed with a system that says "If you go all out, you get punched by the monster"? It is worked exactly as intended. And the intention is that either you team up with DRGs, THFs, BSTs, PUPs, SMNs that have hate shedding and shared hate, or you go with WAR, MNK, SAM, RNG, DRK and hold back. Just a shame people already 2004 decided that "to hell with using hate shedding jobs, all out zerg!!!!".

[Neisan_Quetz]

Hate shedding is ultimately pointless other than to survive right that moment when you reach the hate cap again in 2 minutes or less.

[Mirage]

Not getting attacked for 2 minutes is pretty helpful pretty often, and this is one of the biggest reasons why such abilities are used in the first place, so I wouldn't really call them pointless at all.

[Darka]

What is so flawed with a system that says "If you go all out, you get punched by the monster"? It is worked exactly as intended. And the intention is that either you team up with DRGs, THFs, BSTs, PUPs, SMNs that have hate shedding and shared hate, or you go with WAR, MNK, SAM, RNG, DRK and hold back. Just a shame people already 2004 decided that "to hell with using hate shedding jobs, all out zerg!!!!".

It's flawed because it maintains DD jobs as primary tanks, over actual "tank jobs". PLDs will swear up and down that at 75 they had no problem holding hate, which if any of them have a grasp of enmity mechanics, would know that's just not true. You could hold hate at 75 because other jobs intentionally held back. Now these other jobs have so many defensive abilities they don't need to hold back. So PLD doesn't really have a hope. Even if they do cap their hate, they still offer 0 to the fight alone, which is why it's broken. Atmas were really just nails on the coffin, the problem existed already.
Fixing it isn't easy either, it would likely require an entire overhaul of the enmity algorithms.

[KingGiddra]

These days people just want SE to do the work for them so they don't have to make any effort. Just make PLD stronger. Yeah, that's the trick. And they keep doing that, making jobs stronger. And it unbalances other aspects. And it keeps repeating itself. All because people want to skip out on playing the game with their minds and just TP spam shit. Good job.

I created an account to post just to reply to the stupidity that keeps being regurgitated about the "good old days."

So in many players minds, "TP spamming" is playing the game without thought and is completely asinine in the hypothetically "correct" way to play the game. Just for me to understand, playing the game the proper way as a damage dealer involves me turned around from the bosses actually physically doing absolutely nothing at all.

Let me go over that one more time. The correct way to play a Warrior in a party is to wait for the PLD (or whatever tank is currently in vogue) to generate a sufficient amount of enmity (completely arbitrary as it depends on his skill at the job) and then spin around and attack for just a bit until it "feels" like I'm going to pull.

This is playing the game with my mind?

Now I was criticizing the old thought processes of players, but I'd also criticize the enmity system itself for forcing people to think that not playing the game is even, or should even be an option. The system itself shouldn't foster gameplay that revolves around extended (arguably even any) amounts of time doing nothing at all. That is not to say healers should be constantly casting or anything since they are constantly focused on the bars, but if I'm a damage dealer I should be dealing damage. There should be a system in place that allows me to constantly deal damage. I should always be paying attention to the fight around me and doing my job. The tank in place should have ample abilities to keep the mob on himself and unless I'm going completely buckwild with 2Hr Sekkanokis, I shouldn't pull (this is vastly simplified from what I really mean, but just an example). I could go into further detail about various other flaws I see, but that goes beyond the scope of my response.

[Alderin]

Hate really shouldn't have a cap in the first place.

It most certainly should. Especially with the very large number of hate-reset mobs there are.

Tank on a mob with a lot of HP > WHM cure after cure after cure > Hate reset > WHM has a ridiculous amount of hate generated from the healing > No cap means it will take a lonnnng time for the tank to generate enough hate - meanwhile your healer is dead.

*edit* I do realise that they have modified hate generated from healing etc and it has definitely improved, however without a cap - when fighting the higher tier nm's you would run into this issue, especially if the reset hate TP has been used on the tank multiple times after getting hate back. The NM would then have to reset hate on the healer in order for the tank to pull hate back off them.

I believe the best solution to this would be slight job adjustments modifying hate gain on particular actions. Perhaps (as mentioned) changed the way Provoke works and instead of just increasing hate for yourself - it would reduce a bit of enmity of players within a certain AOE range upto 20' yalms (or something similar).

I think one of the original ideas of giving THF a reverse Accomplice ability to transfer an amount of hate from them and dump it on the tank is a great idea.

Perhaps for PLD - the use of cover reduces the enmity from the player that they are covering instead of themselves. The damage dealt to the PLD while covering comes off the covered player's enmity.

For NIN - Perhaps an AOE ninjutsu spell that grants the effect of Pax to party members in an AOE radius.

MNK - Give Chi blast similar properties to Provoke and lowering the timer considerably.

WAR - Provoke as mentioned above.

WHM - A JA that annuls all enmity gained from the next curing spell. Or simply give them a "Pax" spell (similar to that found in gnostics drink).

Just a few ideas at least...

[Kizmitt]

All I know a Pld dose not tank as well as a Sam DD's Hate or no hate the balance is not the same just like a whm should be able to stay alive for forever and kill nothing we need to quit looking at each job as a swiss army knife and ascend the roles of each job exploit thier true nature
The idea of Pld was to get beat on then why have Mnk ect for variety sakes? really? and yeah a Pld should have provoke a War should not but remember in the beginning there was no Nin or Pld or Dnc I'm just saying
the system is not perfect yeah but allow the job to do the intended puposes a Mnk should be a DD just cause your a galk Mnk dose not mean you should be able to live longer then a Pld or a War in Pld Armor
its no dif its like giving a Rdm all the aga blm spells and the 5 and 6 whm spells then wtf do we need the other jobs for

[Alderin]

PLD should not have provoke. That's what Subjobs are for.

But I agree with your RDM comment. It is stupid to give RDM the -aga's and C5, C6. Besides they aren't healers they are enfeeblers. Yes they can heal - but it's not their main purpose. Same with aga's - keep that for the BLM's. Their job is to nuke - so they should have some exclusivity at that.

However I agree with the overall direction this thread is going. I believe the enmity system doesn't exactly need a rework - jobs just need to be adjusted to allow for a little bit more hate control then they currently have. Tanks should be able to reduce enmity from other people while increasing hate themselves. THF's who used to be the masters of hate control are still somewhat limited at that.

[Akujima]

Unfortunately that would just be the same thing, regardless of PLDs defense, other jobs can still tank safely.

Yes.

Other DD jobs and "Non-Tank" Jobs should not be able to Tank Safely. That's the reason "Tanks" exist, otherwise they're just useless classes.

[GlobalVariable]

Other DD jobs and "Non-Tank" Jobs should not be able to Tank Safely. That's the reason "Tanks" exist, otherwise they're just useless classes.Multiple jobs should be able to tank effectively, but not as well and not while still being primarily DD at the same time. Being capable of doing it requires being able to survive though ones definition of "safely" may very. I remember the days when nobody would do anything without one specific job tanking and I dislike that scenario almost as much as my pld not being useful.

Multiple tanks = good.
Making the tank job the only tank in town = bad.
"The tank job" can't tank the latest content = super bad.
Please remember this dev team. :x

No matter what changes come there always seems to be at least 1 job left unwanted, and after a few updates all we've done is changed which is shunned. Maybe that will never stop...Ugh.

Going to be real interesting seeing how they intend to balance things without changing enmity or using damage nerfs or giving every DD an enmity douse like ability.

[Darka]

Yes.

Other DD jobs and "Non-Tank" Jobs should not be able to Tank Safely. That's the reason "Tanks" exist, otherwise they're just useless classes.

It's not really as simple as that. If they killed off every other jobs defensive capabilities, we're back to 2005, PLD is the only tank, and DDs have to hold back on their damage, resulting in slower kills, and effectively killing lowman. I'm pretty sure the community would have a pretty negative reaction to that, which rules out that option.
The only two real options to make PLD useful again, is to give them higher offensive abilities, or overhaul the entire enmity system.

[Himrik]

I've posted this in a PLD thread:
I think enmity gained by damage should be modified by target max HP. After all, enmity loss already works that way.

Doing a 3k WS shouldn't bother mobs with 100k HP as much as mobs with 5 or 10k.
And if DD generate less enmity, real tanks will surely reappear, as healers will still generate the same enmity

[Lazus]

I've posted this in a PLD thread:
I think enmity gained by damage should be modified by target max HP. After all, enmity loss already works that way.

Doing a 3k WS shouldn't bother mobs with 100k HP as much as mobs with 5 or 10k.
And if DD generate less enmity, real tanks will surely reappear, as healers will still generate the same enmity

No clue if that would work, but it does sound like a good idea.

[Akujima]

It's not really as simple as that. If they killed off every other jobs defensive capabilities, we're back to 2005, PLD is the only tank, and DDs have to hold back on their damage, resulting in slower kills, and effectively killing lowman. I'm pretty sure the community would have a pretty negative reaction to that, which rules out that option.
The only two real options to make PLD useful again, is to give them higher offensive abilities, or overhaul the entire enmity system.

"Tank" should not be a synonym with "DD". If this were to happen, PLD would be crazily overpowered. And if the "Tank jobs" got amazing DD capability AND survivability, you would see the other DD being left out of every event, and everyone would just be playing the Tank jobs, because they survive longer and don't have to hold back DD, they would not have to worry about dying from pulling hate.

(The FFXI community has a habit of making certain jobs/classes "bandwagon" and popular, this in turn weeds out other jobs as "sucky" which get left out and over shadowed. This is why the Dev team should never have allowed the community to design and mold the jobs to their playstyle!)


Multiple jobs should be able to tank effectively, but not as well and not while still being primarily DD at the same time. Being capable of doing it requires being able to survive though ones definition of "safely" may very. I remember the days when nobody would do anything without one specific job tanking and I dislike that scenario almost as much as my pld not being useful.

Multiple tanks = good.
Making the tank job the only tank in town = bad.
"The tank job" can't tank the latest content = super bad.
Please remember this dev team. :x

No matter what changes come there always seems to be at least 1 job left unwanted, and after a few updates all we've done is changed which is shunned. Maybe that will never stop...Ugh.

Going to be real interesting seeing how they intend to balance things without changing enmity or using damage nerfs or giving every DD an enmity douse like ability.


Yes, this is correct.

PLD should NOT be the only tank. And and as said above "Tank" should not be a synonym with "DD".

If FFXI has 20 jobs, then:

3 jobs should fit the role of "Tank". (These jobs while tanking, should NOT do crazy amounts of DD)
3 jobs should fit the role of "Main Heals"
3 jobs should fit the role of "Support Jobs" (brd, cor and dnc, so this is already covered)
3 jobs should fit the role of "Nuker" (Casting DD)
3 jobs should fit the role of "Ranged Attacker"
and the rest of the jobs should be either "Hybrid" or straight out "Melee DD". (But these jobs should not excel at everything they're capable of doing. EX: MNK is given an ability to "Tank" well, this ability should then therefore cut-off MNK's DD output significantly enough. Not doing this creates imbalance in game design!)


So yea... I stopped posting long things like this awhile ago, don't know why I bothered now... but anyways. These forums really make me /sigh...

[Darka]

"Tank" should not be a synonym with "DD". If this were to happen, PLD would be crazily overpowered. And if the "Tank jobs" got amazing DD capability AND survivability, you would see the other DD being left out of every event, and everyone would just be playing the Tank jobs, because they survive longer and don't have to hold back DD, they would not have to worry about dying from pulling hate.

Semantics, I don't care to argue with you about aesthetic reasons why DDs shouldn't tank. DDs tank, damage is the best form of enmity, don't blame me, blame whoever designed the enmity system and didn't use a crystal ball to see the future and discover the higher level cap and atma introduction.
That and "increasing their offensive abilities" does not =/= make them stronger than all other jobs.


This is why the Dev team should never have allowed the community to design and mold the jobs to their playstyle!)

Yes they should have been dictators and ban any player trying to do anything original with their job, or respond with an immediate nerf. /sarcasm




PLD should NOT be the only tank. And and as said above "Tank" should not be a synonym with "DD".

Again, semantics, the mechanics dictate that x works better than y, so use x. I send you back to read my "overhaul of the enmity system" comment again.


If FFXI has 20 jobs, then:

3 jobs should fit the role of "Tank". (These jobs while tanking, should NOT do crazy amounts of DD)
3 jobs should fit the role of "Main Heals"
3 jobs should fit the role of "Support Jobs" (brd, cor and dnc, so this is already covered)
3 jobs should fit the role of "Nuker" (Casting DD)
3 jobs should fit the role of "Ranged Attacker"
and the rest of the jobs should be either "Hybrid" or straight out "Melee DD". (But these jobs should not excel at everything they're capable of doing. EX: MNK is given an ability to "Tank" well, this ability should then therefore cut-off MNK's DD output significantly enough. Not doing this creates imbalance in game design!)

Pigeon-holing, you think jobs should only be capable of strict things? BLMs nuke, and that is all? BRDs sing and that is all? THF trick attacks and nothing else? What a fun game, I don't think you understand the "creates imbalance in game design" notion yourself. Enforce things like this and kiss lowman content goodbye, we're back to 2005 with PLD and a bunch of required supportive jobs to maintain said PLD. Again, issues with tanking are related to the 10 year old design of the enmity system.


These forums really make me /sigh...

Sweet we agree.

[Swords]

I remember when it was a team effort to keep hate on Paladins because they just weren't built to deal damage, but to take damage. These days people just want SE to do the work for them so they don't have to make any effort. Just make PLD stronger. Yeah, that's the trick. And they keep doing that, making jobs stronger. And it unbalances other aspects. And it keeps repeating itself. All because people want to skip out on playing the game with their minds and just TP spam shit. Good job.

Agreed, I remember it was a requirement for most if not all DD's to have /THF leveled to SATA onto whoever was tanking. However, this was before people figured out just how fast they could zerg stuff with X-hit weapons, haste, march setups and before SAM, /SAM, and 2h-weapons got a big boost.

The additional damage boost people used to get off of SC's and MB used to help suppliment the damage difference between the zerg tactics, but unfortunately SATA melees, SC, and MBs have become lost arts due to SE catering new gear and job adjustments to the zerg frenzy.



Pigeon-holing, you think jobs should only be capable of strict things? BLMs nuke, and that is all? BRDs sing and that is all? THF trick attacks and nothing else? What a fun game, I don't think you understand the "creates imbalance in game design" notion yourself. Enforce things like this and kiss lowman content goodbye, we're back to 2005 with PLD and a bunch of required supportive jobs to maintain said PLD. Again, issues with tanking are related to the 10 year old design of the enmity system.

Jobs are and will always be pigeon-holed by people in this game. I cannot tell you how many times people would bitch if you even tried to step out of their "pesudo-perfect" setup, and the few times you might get away with it you had to pray something did not go wrong or it ALL came down to your fault reguardless of how incompetit other players may be.

[Neisan_Quetz]

There's a difference between being forced to perform only one action and doing something which isn't optimal. Having a job being only able to do one role is pigeon-holing and bad for the game. Except for some melee DD jobs (ref: Drg, even then, they can shed hate with jumps or depending on sub, help with healing) most jobs in the game can perform at least 2 roles to varying degress of effectiveness.

[GlobalVariable]

I remember when it was a team effort to keep hate on Paladins because they just weren't built to deal damage, but to take damage. These days people just want SE to do the work for them so they don't have to make any effort. Just make PLD stronger. Yeah, that's the trick. And they keep doing that, making jobs stronger. And it unbalances other aspects. And it keeps repeating itself. All because people want to skip out on playing the game with their minds and just TP spam shit. Good job.Agreed, I remember it was a requirement for most if not all DD's to have /THF leveled to SATA onto whoever was tanking.That has been dead long before the current situation. Even well before the popularity of /sam and the 2h update. Go onto any community site forum and try to advocate war/thf...Good luck.

And there are plenty of times hate production from damage will be so high that TA won't mean a thing anyway. As it is melee's stand around doing nothing long enough thanks to the proc system. Saying it is because we don't hold back or don't "work" for hate control is simply nonsense.

[Swords]

That has been dead long before the current situation. Even well before the popularity of /sam and the 2h update. Go onto any community site forum and try to advocate war/thf...Good luck.

And there are plenty of times hate production from damage will be so high that TA won't mean a thing anyway. As it is melee's stand around doing nothing long enough thanks to the proc system. Saying it is because we don't hold back or don't "work" for hate control is simply nonsense.

I'm by no means advocating usage of /THF on DD's in this day and era, it was merely stating so though it might still have it's uses in certain situations. It's really all in how the game was originally designed, intended, and adjusted, back in 2004/05 a balanced group that worked with each other played a major part in success in experience and event settings. You of course ran into bandwagon jobs back then with Arrow/Mana burn parties, but a balanced party had a bigger standing then than it does now.

SE has strayed away from that trying to make the game more suitable for the casual player, and I'm fine with the direction they've taken in some areas and not so much in others. I know not everyone is going to be happy with everything and neither will I, but it would be nice to have a more teamwork oriented environment that played more to the strengths and weakness of each other like back then, instead of singling out half the jobs available for being seen as useless because of one or two design flaws even though they're still entirely viable.

[Leonlionheart]

The problem isn't necesarily enmity as it is now, but rather the fact that we don't need PLD or general tanks to kill things.

Voidwatch gave us a glimpse into how fights would be if every other MNK couldn't tank the hardest boss the game currently has to offer, and I assume it will continue to be that way.

Simply put: If there was an opponent that REQUIRED a job with the survivability of a PLD to tank, the playerbase would find a way to defeat it.

(Although with perfect defense and so many Ukonvasara WARs around there's no way in hell we'll be needing true tanks anytime soon)

P.S.@Swords: You probably get this a lot, but Bog Body and Moogles take extremely high damage (Over *2.0).

[Swords]

P.S.@Swords: You probably get this a lot, but Bog Body and Moogles take extremely high damage (Over *2.0).

Actually your the first to say anything, and I'm well aware of their weaksauce defense. I've got other SS of damage on other mobs that are slightly lower, but looking at it I wonder why I didn't put them in as well. XD

[Ravenmore]

Bog bodys have the def of a wet paper bag and the HP of HNM

[Arcon]

Bog bodys have the def of a wet paper bag and the HP of HNM

They actually have normal defense, just Damage Taken +100%. I know, just a technicality, but still.

[Alderin]

3 jobs should fit the role of "Tank". (These jobs while tanking, should NOT do crazy amounts of DD)
3 jobs should fit the role of "Main Heals"
3 jobs should fit the role of "Support Jobs" (brd, cor and dnc, so this is already covered)
3 jobs should fit the role of "Nuker" (Casting DD)
3 jobs should fit the role of "Ranged Attacker"
and the rest of the jobs should be either "Hybrid" or straight out "Melee DD". (But these jobs should not excel at everything they're capable of doing. EX: MNK is given an ability to "Tank" well, this ability should then therefore cut-off MNK's DD output significantly enough. Not doing this creates imbalance in game design!)

You go on about players should not be able to mould jobs to their playstyle. Yet you quote job "descriptions" (such as Tank, Nuker, DD etc) which are "player moulded titles" for each job mentioned.

A WHM can tank with a shield and a club, when solo'ing. A PLD can sit back with a staff and cure people. Why the hell wouldn't you allow this?

This goes back to the whole mentality of "this job was designed by the dev team do play this role and this role only, and can only ever be played like this otherwise it's useless." Which I will be honest - is the mentality that I hate about this game.

Sure a RDM is a crappy melee job, yet can hold a sword and a shield and still melee. I wouldn't personally melee on RDM for example - but a lot of people's playstyle includes this (and the game allows it so why not?).

There is no right or wrong way to play a job. I have seen WHM's trump a few "DD's" in damage output with Hexa. Stop hating on people that want to play their job their own way.

Ps. RDM sucks at melee. You shouldn't do it. Ninja is a tank and can't nuke / kite kill because it sucks at nukes...

[Fyreus]

It's not really as simple as that. If they killed off every other jobs defensive capabilities, we're back to 2005, PLD is the only tank, and DDs have to hold back on their damage, resulting in slower kills, and effectively killing lowman. I'm pretty sure the community would have a pretty negative reaction to that, which rules out that option.
The only two real options to make PLD useful again, is to give them higher offensive abilities, or overhaul the entire enmity system.


If people would play rng then they'd understand that the game absolutely sucks if you HAVE to sit in town and wait for 1 class to pop up. If this is what the game is about then no one would play it so i have to agree here.

Then there's the ego issue...

[Winrie]

In my personal opinion the slow killing methods for battles that are PLD needed is the best way, you cant really argue the playerbase would be angry with this due to the fact pre abyssea thats how it was done on many HNM, unless you had a LS that could throw bodies at things constantly no matter who died til it died. Most effective way to keep a tank on the mob, use the traditional SMN pet kills, and keep the DDs /thf.

To sum this all up to the OP, no one wants to see you SA Mercy stroke things to death stealing hate, the hate cap doesnt need balance, your play style does, control yourself. THF isnt a DD outside abyssea, and if youre relating this to inside abyssea, most every thf takes hate with RR on. You do not play in a world where you can SA things to death and not get hate.

The hate cap itself is stupid, and PLD does need work on it to make it viable outside abyssea. But as it has been done before pre abyssea and still doable now, outside abyssea use your head, there are ways to keep mobs on tanks, and there is a job change function and tons of jobs, not everything has to be zerged in this game. You can lowman kill just as fast as a sloppy looking poorly set up zerg and look more clean and pro. Use your brains and you can overcome any obstacle.

[Fyreus]

To fix this we just need to leave abyssea lol. Those atmas are overpowered to the point where there's a guy in AF in teh dunes tanking for a party if you want a good look at how we treat IT mobs in there. Maybe we could use a mob or two outside of abyssea that has like 600 stones, 9 atmas, and 8 furtherance so we know how it feels :3

[Arcon]

To fix this we just need to leave abyssea lol.

Unfortunately it's just marginally better outside. The cap is too low and the enmity system not very well suited for this game at this level and time.

[Alukat]

In my personal opinion the slow killing methods for battles that are PLD needed is the best way, you cant really argue the playerbase would be angry with this due to the fact pre abyssea thats how it was done on many HNM, unless you had a LS that could throw bodies at things constantly no matter who died til it died. Most effective way to keep a tank on the mob, use the traditional SMN pet kills, and keep the DDs /thf.

To sum this all up to the OP, no one wants to see you SA Mercy stroke things to death stealing hate, the hate cap doesnt need balance, your play style does, control yourself. THF isnt a DD outside abyssea, and if youre relating this to inside abyssea, most every thf takes hate with RR on. You do not play in a world where you can SA things to death and not get hate.

The hate cap itself is stupid, and PLD does need work on it to make it viable outside abyssea. But as it has been done before pre abyssea and still doable now, outside abyssea use your head, there are ways to keep mobs on tanks, and there is a job change function and tons of jobs, not everything has to be zerged in this game. You can lowman kill just as fast as a sloppy looking poorly set up zerg and look more clean and pro. Use your brains and you can overcome any obstacle.

i'm talking about outside abyssea. TA + Mercy stroke (~1,8-2,3k dmg) on nin and SA + mercy stroke (~2-2,5k) and then i have hate and even with another TA + mercy stroke i'm still hate holder, seems like hate caps at ~4k dmg (ws dmg +
enmity of sa + enmity of melee rounds) . back in the days sky gods (except kirin) are at 15-20k hp.kill them with 6 DDs its ~24k dmg at all for everyone to cap hate. mob died long before they hit that number.

but nowadays many mobs have 50k+ hp, so they don't die before ppl hit hate cap anymore.

and yeah i know about CE & VE.

but with all the capped haste & DW increases with the last updates enmity just doesn't decreases fast enough.

.Edit: point is, enmity system is still build for the old 75 Content and not for the new content where mobs have much more hp, so it does need a revamp.

[Neisan_Quetz]

FYI Sky gods are closer to 20-22k HP, Kirin is roughly 60k HP. Tiamat approx 180k HP, Jorm 80k HP, Khimaira approx 72k HP. for Comparison, Rani has ~80k HP, Raja ~150k, and Isgebind ~90k.

[Alukat]

hmm ^^
however u doing more dmg per hit now, that's faster enmity increase........so it still needs a revamp!