WAR Job Ability 90+: "Weapon Mastery" [Archive]

kingfury

03-09-2011, 09:54 AM

With Warrior's current ability to wield up to 13 weapons, all with skill levels capped at the mid to high 300's and nothing below 250, and the future lvl cap to raise these skills even further; it makes absolutely every bit of sense to introduce a job ability that crowns these veterans of all things melee with something that lets them take full advantage of such a unique profession such as jack of all trades. I propose this:
WAR JA lvl 90+: "Weapon Mastery" (»Job Ability Cover) (http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b167/soulchld4/WeaponMastery-WEB.jpg)

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Recast: *Edit* 4mins
Duration: *Edit* 2(maybe 3) successful (weapon skill hits target. If the ws misses the target, the weapon skill charge will not be consumed) weapon skill charges. The possibility of a 3rd weapon skill charge could be random similar to how Seigan + Third Eye works, but at least 2 charges will be guaranteed. An Icon displaying the active JA would disappear once the ws charges have been consumed. The 2-3 ws charges will remain active for up to 2 mins if not used before wearing off.
**EDIT** Certain weapon skills, under certain conditions that are unlocked via this JA that are used for Red and Blue triggering on monsters inside Abyssea will cause them to not trigger for the WAR using this JA only.

Example:
A WAR/SAM uses Weapon Mastery to unlock the dagger weapon skill Cyclone in the attempt to try trigger Red on a NM, yet no Red trigger will be possible for the WAR since this JA is active. If another party member natively has Cyclone available based on their Main or Sub job, they will be able to trigger Red using Cyclone on the NM. The WAR will still be able to receive the hint message from using Cyclone however.

Description: “Weapon Mastery”- Temporarily allows a WAR the use of all standard
weapon skills accociated with any weapon being wielded. This does not include quested weapon skills that have not been unlocked previously. If any quested weapon skill was unlocked before the use of Weapon Mastery, the job ability will display the weapon skill in the ability list.
Detailed Description: Once used, the WAR will gain access to previously unlisted weapon skills for 2 mins. This will include job specific standard(or non quested) weapons skills such as Dancing Edge(THF and DNC specific) and Hexa Strike(WHM specific) and others like these. Access to these standard weapon skills, however, will be dependent on the current skill lvl possessed for that weapon. Weapon Mastery will not grant instant bonus skill lvls for a weapon, and thus only unlocks the appropriate weapon skill based on the skill lvls in question. If the WARs skill lvls in all weapons are capped at maximum, all standard weapon skills available for those skill lvls will become available. This also includes Ranged weapon skills like Sidewinder.
Visual example (1/2) (http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b167/soulchld4/WeaponMastery-Descript-WEB.jpg)
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Visual example (2/2) (http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b167/soulchld4/WeaponMastery-Descript-2-WEB.jpg)
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In closing, again I'll say, WARs will be able to wield more weapons than ANY job in the game, if not better than any job by lvl 99 so it would just make sense to give WAR a reward for all those long hours of skilling up lol. Please, please consider this Job ability SE. Thank you

hideka

03-09-2011, 10:28 PM

good idea, but i would like it to go as far as unlocking trial WS's that the player has quested, as trial WS's are teh awsome in some cases. (not that warrior cant use most trial ws's, we can only not use Arch Marks and H2H trial ws's >_>)

Mirage

03-09-2011, 10:46 PM

"Temporary"
2 minute recast, 2 minute duration, no drawbacks

lol.

kingfury

03-09-2011, 10:54 PM

I thought about that, but it just didn't seem very fair or balanced to the folks that have to spend lots of time doing tons of ws's to break trial quest weapons and then time hunting and killing a NM to get those ws's. I'd be lying if I said I hadn't dreamed of using Asuran Fist for years now on WAR though lol.
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Unless you're saying a quested ws that you have already unlocked on say MNK and you just want access to them while using Weapon Mastery, because I would have to agree with that. That would absolutely be a *yes please* to that functionality lol :) If you have in fact already unlocked any of the quested ws's, it would become available after using Weapon Mastery on WAR even if the ws's were job specific. This functionality would hold true for Mythic quested ws as well. As long as you've unlocked them, they will show up in the ws list on WAR while Weapon Mastery is active.

Just about all other quested ws's can be obtained on WAR though so you'd just have to work a bit for'em is all.

kingfury

03-09-2011, 10:58 PM

"Temporary"
2 minute recast, 2 minute duration, no drawbacks

lol.

Lol Well I'm a fan of JA's like Defender and Retaliation :) As soon as they wear off, you can just pop the JA again to put them back on if you need them ^^ it makes things so much nicer... Bad Berserk and Aggressor /recast timers, BAD!

hiko

03-10-2011, 12:24 AM

so you just want war to be able to proc all red/blue !!

fizzywig

03-10-2011, 12:37 AM

you cant proc all blue with it if u dont get quested ws unless if it is unlock and you get it then

ringthree

03-10-2011, 01:05 AM

That would kill a lot of the uniqueness of all the other melee jobs.

It's unbalanced and unnecessary.

kingfury

03-10-2011, 02:21 AM

That would kill a lot of the uniqueness of all the other melee jobs.

It's unbalanced and unnecessary.
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lol as if to say one job(WAR) being able to wield 13 weapons with great efficiency isn't unique enough to reward them with such a relevant JA as this?! Adding the ability to use the full list of weapons skills from all the weapons a WAR can already use wouldn't/shouldn't break anything in even the slightest, so I can't see the imbalance here. It's just putting the cherry on top of the cake is all ^^ It's not like I'm requesting the use of Great Katana or Katana...which a WAR would totally do much more effici--, well let me not go there now lol.
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"Unnecessary" I'm afraid is very much your opinion :). As a full-time WAR myself, I would, in my opinion, say this would be ABSOLUTELY necessary in my daily run around as a DD both in and outside of Abyssea lol. It would just open the possibilities to enjoy all the weapons I carry with me everywhere in a myriad of new ways, thus expanding the joy of playing a super versatile and unique job like WAR.

Mojo

03-10-2011, 03:41 AM

This idea is like almost every other idea posted on these boards thus far. Some absurd request that essentially overpowers one job to the point where no others are required and that would completely imbalance several aspects of the game. It's no different than the general thread where players are requesting the feature to be able to exchange one seal for another. Any idea that completely remove diversity from the game in such a way as that is terrible. It's no surprise to me that you refer to yourself as a full time warrior. If you want to be able to use the abilities that other jobs have access to and that warrior does not, then go level those jobs instead of asking for them.

kingfury

03-10-2011, 04:42 AM

This idea is like almost every other idea posted on these boards thus far. Some absurd request that essentially overpowers one job to the point where no others are required and that would completely imbalance several aspects of the game.
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Please do me a great favor and explain in what way a WAR being able to use a weapon skill would make any other job obsolete or not needed? If you can do so, then my friend your true beef is with SE and not my request at all lol.
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If any job in this game's only last true relevance and purpose is hinged on solely being to perform a weapon skill that no one else has access to, you should be worried more about adding to their abilities and not trying to encumber mine lol. Again I'll ask how gaining access to the standard weapon skills (or even quested ws's for that matter) would upset the game balance or over power a WAR? Would the fact that a WAR could use Hexa Strike really make WHM's near 0% usage during any party setting less relevant? Maybe the fact that if a WAR could use Sidewinder, would make a RNG completely worthless, right? Again, if that's the case, you should create your own thread that cry out for more power to the jobs you're worried about.
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Since you obviously don't understand what kind of dmg a WAR can do with his/her 13 usable weapons, perhaps you should lvl WAR 1st before requesting me to lvl a job that doesn't have as much versatility. If you understood the already built-in variety that a WAR has as a melee, you would see that I'm only asking for the next NATURAL step in a WARs evolution which is to get the most out of having access to so many weapons at such high skill lvls. The name of the request is based on an already built-in game mechanic man, "Weapon Mastery".
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A good WAR will continue to keep all his/her weapons up to capped skill lvls in the upcoming lvl increases regardless, but just picture this concept for a sec and tell me if it doesn't seem wasted to you:
WAR Level 99: Able to wield 13 weapons all capped skill levels, ranging somewhere in the high 300's(the lowest skills) to mid 400's(the B+ and A+ skills) if not higher, and only having access to 5/11+ dagger weapon skills... /stagger lol sounds like an incredible waste to me.
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Sorry but you should do your research before trying to blast a Valid request friend.

ringthree

03-10-2011, 05:33 AM

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Please do me a great favor and explain in what way a WAR being able to use a weapon skill would make any other job obsolete or not needed? If you can do so, then my friend your true beef is with SE and not my request at all lol.
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Most players don't care about game balance until the game is balanced against them. While you may think your idea is great, SE has to consider all players and all jobs when maintaining game balance. Your argument is essentially that WAR should be able to do just about every WS in the game. Why would you bring any other job when WAR can do every single WS? Why would WAR or any other job have any unique aspects to their melee damage if that was the case?

You aren't thinking about game balance at all, and that is the premier consideration for SE when they are going to make a change to the game.

If you want to suggest a change, you should start by considering how the change will effect the entirety of the game. This will make the suggestion more legitimate. Just suggesting something that you think is "cool" without any thought about game balance is the fastest why to get a dev to look at your suggestion, roll their eyes, and move on.

Mirage

03-10-2011, 05:44 AM

Lol Well I'm a fan of JA's like Defender and Retaliation :) As soon as they wear off, you can just pop the JA again to put them back on if you need them ^^ it makes things so much nicer... Bad Berserk and Aggressor /recast timers, BAD!

Sounds like you don't get it.

That ability description uses "temporary" to make the ability not sound overpowered, when it in fact is a fulltime ability with no downsides. It is essentially the same as changing war to have every WS innately without the need to use this ability. I am a war main and I think this ability is terrible.

I'd much rather see an overall adjustment to battle skills, seeing as A-grade skills grow incredibly much faster than B, making B-grade weapons even more inaccurate than they were before. This isn't a war-only change though, and would help classes that have B-skill as their best, such as WHM with clubs, or PLDs using greatswords for more damage cause they can't tank anyway :>.

Mojo

03-10-2011, 05:47 AM

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Please do me a great favor and explain in what way a WAR being able to use a weapon skill would make any other job obsolete or not needed? If you can do so, then my friend your true beef is with SE and not my request at all lol.
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If any job in this game's only last true relevance and purpose is hinged on solely being to perform a weapon skill that no one else has access to, you should be worried more about adding to their abilities and not trying to encumber mine lol. Again I'll ask how gaining access to the standard weapon skills (or even quested ws's for that matter) would upset the game balance or over power a WAR? Would the fact that a WAR could use Hexa Strike really make WHM's near 0% usage during any party setting less relevant? Maybe the fact that if a WAR could use Sidewinder, would make a RNG completely worthless, right? Again, if that's the case, you should create your own thread that cry out for more power to the jobs you're worried about.
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Since you obviously don't understand what kind of dmg a WAR can do with his/her 13 usable weapons, perhaps you should lvl WAR 1st before requesting me to lvl a job that doesn't have as much versatility. If you understood the already built-in variety that a WAR has as a melee, you would see that I'm only asking for the next NATURAL step in a WARs evolution which is to get the most out of having access to so many weapons at such high skill lvls. The name of the request is based on an already built-in game mechanic man, "Weapon Mastery".
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A good WAR will continue to keep all his/her weapons up to capped skill lvls in the upcoming lvl increases regardless, but just picture this concept for a sec and tell me if it doesn't seem wasted to you:
WAR Level 99: Able to wield 13 weapons all capped skill levels, ranging somewhere in the high 300's(the lowest skills) to mid 400's(the B+ and A+ skills) if not higher, and only having access to 5/11+ dagger weapon skills... /stagger lol sounds like an incredible waste to me.
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Sorry but you should do your research before trying to blast a Valid request friend.

It should be pretty clear as to why this would imbalance the game. Efficiently playing Abyssea content revolves around weaponskill procs. WAR has access to a good number of them. What you're asking for is essentially access to almost all of. WAR can already tank most NMs in Abyssea with the support of a lone WHM, so essentially you would be rendering every other melee job pointless or second choice to WAR in terms of efficiency. Even outside of Abyssea this would be a bad step as it goes a good measure towards removing uniqueness of other jobs. You really think that a WAR should be just as adept at using a dagger as a THF?

Also, not that it should matter, but WAR is one of my favorite jobs. I'm one piece short of full Ravager's +2 and about 1/3 of the way through a completed Ukonsvarasa. Perhaps you should drop the air of arrogance you carry in assuming other players don't play jobs they don't want to see become absurdly imbalanced? Again, if you want to be capable of doing things that other jobs can do, then go level other jobs instead of asking devs to just give you everything.

Valkrist

03-10-2011, 06:21 AM

This is a completely ridiculous idea. While you may think that giving WAR access to almost every WS in the game is a moot point, it's really asking for SE to break WAR even further.

Outside of Abyssea it may not matter so much for a WAR to be able to use Dancing Edge or Hexa Strike since, "my skill in the weapons will be nonexistant and that WARs don't have access to all the good weapons for this type. There's no way that I can do any real damage just by knowing all the WSes." But considering that almost everything in FFXI revolves around Abyssea nowadays, this would completely destroy the need to diversify jobs in the zones. Instead of needing a MNK and WHM around to proc all blue !!, let's just bring in a WAR. Instead of having a DRG and RNG, we'll just use a single WAR again. We need to proc red !!, we'll just bring a single WAR again since they do have a katana and great katana they can use as well.

The entire idea behind the !! system was to force jobs that may not normally be used, to be used. While it's true that WAR won't be doing damage with all those newfound WSes, it will completely ruin this system that was designed to help breaking the mold of, "SAM DDs onry." This ability you're proposing is doing absolutely nothing but causing the game to take one giant step backwards.

kingfury

03-10-2011, 07:23 AM

alright, now we have a good o'l fashion debate on our hands :)
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Okie dokie, lets talk about this fear of WAR getting too much stuff that it would make other melee/DD jobs pointless 1st. In terms of Abyssea triggers, if this is your fear, you should already feel this way since based on the situation (and luck) a WAR really can trigger just about all Red and Blue triggers. Planning ahead, all a WAR has to do is change his/her sub to reduce the chances of not being able to trigger. Soooo, that being said, SE already had this in mind when creating Abyssea, otherwise they would have focused on ALL job specific ws only to trigger Reds and Blues. I'm also sure they realized that WARs efficiency with as many weapons would make them desirable when forming just about any events around Abyssea, so I don't think that argument is very strong either. Here's the point on this particular topic: Being able to more efficiently trigger Red and Blue inside Abyssea doesn't really upset over all game balance especially since Abyssea is a direct contradiction to "Game Balance" in the 1st place lol. Any job can alter their intended job role inside Abyssea by choosing the right Atmas upon entry, so lets just go ahead and say, who cares if a WAR could trigger all Red and Blue... I mean really, who would care? I mean, I would be pretty happy about it personally, but my point is WAR is already on the edge of this reality as we speak. Abyssea is not the reason I brought up this proposed JA at all truly. My concerns are for the further progression of what WAR already is. It's a dream zone, with dream stats. As soon as you leave, the game's mechanics are back to normal right? So, lets toss that fear to the wind since Abyssea party sizes are down to 2-3 members anyway.
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To Mirage and Ringtree- I say it sounds much more logical to give WAR access to all the standard weapon skills based on the 13 weapons we can use. WARs are the only job that have the unique pleasure of wielding all these weapons. A weapon skill doesn't make a job unique, job abilities make a job unique. A WAR has access to 11/15 possible sword ws's that a PLD can use. Does this mean a PLD is being robed of it's uniqueness because a WAR can do these 11 ws's? Absolutely not, and that fact would remain should a WAR have access to more ws's. A PLDs uniqueness comes from it's JAs and design. With that logic alone, a job ability that gave access to weapon skills would speak DIRECTLY to the functionality built into a WAR. SCH is a great example of this. SE designed SCHs to be versatile Mages, giving them access to both sides of Light and Dark magic right. That's their DESIGN. Using a JOB ABILITY (stratagems) to further expand their intended design. A WAR is designed to be the MOST versatile melee job in the game, so that's their DESIGN. (So to focus on your comment Mirage) Just like SCH has JAs that further unlock their effectiveness, a job ability such as "Weapon Mastery" would be no different. The draw back to my proposed JA is that not ALL ws's would be available (which is VERY similar if not exactly what SCHs do with stratagems, they don't gain access to ALL Light and Dark spells), just the standard ones plus any quested ws you've already unlocked. It's not stepping out of the design to ask for a JA as we approach lvl 99 that makes this fact shine like never before. It's not just me thinking it would be "cool" to have, and you don't have to take my word for what SE planned for a WAR to be. Just look at the skill lvls on the weapons and tell me what you think is logical progression for a non DRK having a scythe skill at 341 at lvl 90 with 9 more lvls to go should be.
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Warrior
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Aaannndd to Mr.Mojo- the top argument squashes the 1st half of your comment. Abyssea isn't meant to be a "balanced" zone in the slightest, so there's no weight to this argument. Again I'll point out that ws's don't make a job unique, Job abilities do. A war being able to do a ws shouldn't rob any other jobs uniqueness in the slightest. It's not me that thinks WAR should be adept at using a dagger, it's SE. War has a B- in dagger skill currently at lvl 90 and the job is designed to be adept at all things melee:

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Category:Daggers

For the latter half of your comment, I think the above argument deals with this fairly well. Point one: I'm sure you already understand that the gear you have means ka'put in terms of actually understanding and/or being an expert at ones job so I won't spend much time on that point. Point two: The real questions in regards to understanding the argument at hand are: Are all of your skill lvls capped? Yes, even Archery and Marksmanship lol. Do you have 9/10 quested ws's unlocked? If so, do you know how to get the most out of each ws (like pushing each ws to it's full potential)? Things like this is what set an experienced WAR apart from an inexperienced WAR. Now, you may have all melee jobs lvl'd and can say yes to these questions, but it's not arrogance if I've spent every year since '04 building/refining my skills only on WAR, it's just plain o'l experience. I don't claim to know everything about this game by no means, but I take pride in understanding the mechanics of WAR. I hold the same respect for other pros of their respective jobs, and truly believe that a WAR having access to certain ws's (NOT ALL lol never said all) SHOULD NOT be able to steal their thunder or uniqueness one bit. END
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Thanks for all the great feedback by the way to everyone :) even if you don't agree ^^ It helps greatly when others make you look harder into something you truly care about.

kingfury

03-10-2011, 07:32 AM

Mirage

03-10-2011, 07:38 AM

stuff

It's not really a "job ability" because it can be on all the time, and has no downsides at all. Might as well just make WAR gain permanent access to the WSes at level 90.

Maybe it could work if it had some solid drawbacks, wore off after using a single WS, and had a longer recast.

Shadowgabriel

03-10-2011, 08:12 AM

like the idea but i think it would be better as a single use with a long recast rather than the 2 min.

Valkrist

03-10-2011, 08:52 AM

In terms of Abyssea triggers, if this is your fear, you should already feel this way since based on the situation (and luck) a WAR really can trigger just about all Red and Blue triggers. Planning ahead, all a WAR has to do is change his/her sub to reduce the chances of not being able to trigger. Soooo, that being said, SE already had this in mind when creating Abyssea, otherwise they would have focused on ALL job specific ws only to trigger Reds and Blues.

It is true that WAR currently can proc most !! for red, but it is absolutely not true for blue. This Job Ability would effectively remove BLM, COR, DNC, DRG, DRK, MNK, NIN, RNG, SAM, SCH, SMN, THF, and WHM from ever being used in Abyssea again for procing blue. That alone unbalances Abyssea's need for anything but WAR and a healer.

They did have this in mind when they designed red !! to be general WS that can be used by most jobs. It's red specifically because this is the key item proc that can be used by everyone. Whereas blue !! are from job specific WSes for things that are gear drop specific. The harder things and more sought after things. In other words need a higher variety of jobs to have an increased chance of drop rate.

Being able to more efficiently trigger Red and Blue inside Abyssea doesn't really upset over all game balance especially since Abyssea is a direct contradiction to "Game Balance" in the 1st place lol. Any job can alter their intended job role inside Abyssea by choosing the right Atmas upon entry, so lets just go ahead and say, who cares if a WAR could trigger all Red and Blue... I mean really, who would care? I mean, I would be pretty happy about it personally, but my point is WAR is already on the edge of this reality as we speak.

What you don't understand is what you just said was the reality of things even before Abyssea. Everything was limited to a very few selected jobs, restricting players that don't have those jobs to never be included. Yes Abyssea upset the balance, or lack of balance that FFXI originally had. At least now with the !! system, the people that only have jobs like PUP can be invited to participate. This greatly rebalanced the game so that the not so popular jobs are now viable in certain roles.

So, lets toss that fear to the wind since Abyssea party sizes are down to 2-3 members anyway.

While this is true for you and a lot of people, this is not true for everyone. Not everyone has the luxury or the ability to be in lowman groups. Just because this change doesn't do anything game breaking for you aside from it just being "cool", doesn't mean this doesn't effect other players on a massive scale. Not everyone can lowman things simply because their jobs of preference are not the preferred jobs of the general populous. In a single swipe, you completely denied thirteen jobs from participating. That translates into a lot of players missing out on content just because you just want to be cooler.

I say it sounds much more logical to give WAR access to all the weapon skills based on the 13 weapons we can use since they have the unique pleasure of wielding all these weapons. A weapon skill doesn't make a job unique, job abilities make a job unique. With that logic alone, a job ability that gave access to weapon skills would speak DIRECTLY to the functionality built into a WAR. SCH is a great example of this. SE designed SCHs to be versatile Mages, giving them access to both sides of Light and Dark magic right. That's their DESIGN. A WAR is designed to be the MOST versatile melee job in the game, so that's their DESIGN.

Just because WAR has access to thirteen weapon groups does not mean that they have become or should become a master of all of them.

What makes a job unique is more than their Job Abilities. Their ability to use job specific WS greatly effect what defines them as that class. What you've essentially stated is that every job should have access to every weapon, because it's not the weapon that defines the job what-so-ever. Yes, what will DRK be when WAR gets access to Guillotine? A WAR that rarely uses it's Job Abilities, with just slightly higher skill as well as access to some magic, but lacks every single thing that WAR powerful. Yes that's defines a DRK, his ability to Soul Eater; because we all know that WARs are equally good at using scythes as well.

Just because WAR has access to so many weapon types and SCH has access to so many magic types, doesn't mean they're meant to be used in all situations, or even in any situation. Just because my car has four wheels doesn't automatically make it just as effective in the water as four wheeled cars specifically designed to be amphibious.

WARs are very versatile, but they aren't always asked to come to certain events due to other jobs simply because of their differences. SCH's the same way. SCH can both nuke and cure, but it by no means can replace either a nuker or a healer. Your suggestion is simply saying SCH by DESIGN should replace BLM and a WHM. WARs should replace all other DDs, tanks, healers and nukers. I mean, they're DESIGNed to be versatile. You're the one that said,

Any job can alter their intended job role inside Abyssea by choosing the right Atmas upon entry

kingfury

03-10-2011, 09:31 AM

It's not really a "job ability" because it can be on all the time, and has no downsides at all. Might as well just make WAR gain permanent access to the WSes at level 90.

Maybe it could work if it had some solid drawbacks, wore off after using a single WS, and had a longer recast.
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Well it's still a JA though, but I know what you mean :) Besides, I think I meant to say the Addendums White and Black ^^ Both you and Shadowgabriel bring up a interesting point though. Although, again, I'm not proposing this JA in regards to Abyssea triggering, which the single use would make perfect sense. Especially since you could miss that single ws and be shafted for 2mins or more waiting for the /recast to cooldown. I would be ok with maybe 2-3 uses perhaps before losing access to all the ws's and having to wait 2 mins until you could use it again. That still sounds fair to me.

Redfrost

03-10-2011, 11:10 AM

kingfury

03-10-2011, 11:29 PM

While it is a pretty good idea I think that since War's are the kings of Parses there really doesn't need to be anything added. Having war's able to proc most all ws's really doesn't do much for a end game player. I guess soloing/dual boxing it would help but we have a ton of stuff that is simply amazing. I just don't seen a point to having all of the ws's unless it is for procing and even then it would be a stretch.
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Say wha'zit?! Nothing needs to be added??! >< lol No thanks! I've had my full share of updates where WAR got nothing(or nothing great lol), so I'd have to disagree with you there friend lol. Plus, damage output isn't the topic here lol and AGAIN I'll say that Abyssea is NOT the reason I put together this proposed JA lol. I know it may sound like it since triggering Red and Blue is a large part of a WARs life right now due to Abyssea, but my concern is the natural progression of WARs abilities :) The point of gaining access to all the standard, and possible quested weapon skills, would be to make sense of having access and very efficient skill lvls in 13 usable weapons ^^; so no "stretch" here.
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Anywho, thanks to the great feedback from everyone, I've made some edits that I think sound pretty fair:

Recast: *Edit* 4mins
Duration: *Edit* 2(maybe 3) successful (weapon skill hits target. If the ws misses the target, the weapon skill charge will not be consumed) weapon skill charges. The possibility of a 3rd weapon skill charge could be random similar to how Seigan + Third Eye works, but at least 2 charges will be guaranteed. An Icon displaying the active JA would disappear once the ws charges have been consumed. The 2-3 ws charges will remain active for up to 2 mins if not used before wearing off.

Ragmar

03-11-2011, 12:13 AM

kingfury

03-11-2011, 12:49 AM

5 min recast 3 min duration to go with berserk and aggressor cause why not lol. It's not game breaking at all and tbh wouldnt likely get much use. WAR's aren't going to abandon GA's to wield scythes so they can use guillotine 3/5 minutes. Why not ... because we do more DMG already with our GA's and would do more than with a Scythe still. It'd be fun and totally in line with job progression. NB4 WAR Tachi: Fudo (I dont think I can support relic/mythic/emp WS's) but WSNM not a prob. The most useful I could see this would be 2 WAR swappaing usage of another weapons WS to create skillchains but lets be real when was the last non solo skillchain you saw that was planned out. When I low man WHM MNK THF BLU BLM we often chain light to distortion using MNK BLU THF and BLM MB its a lot of fun to take 50% of the mobs HP after proc but I dont see others doing this ever anymore. I even get /tells asking "how did you do that!!!" from the aby only crowd.
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Lol it's true that many still don't understand how to get the most out of skillchains, it's unfortunate, but true ^^;
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Well, in response to "WAR's aren't going to abandon GA's to wield scythes so they can use guillotine", I say part of that reason is because most (and I mean like damn near every WAR that I've known lol) WARs rarely ever take the time to actually procure the highest dmg'ing non "Main job" weapon and REALLY test the limits of what they can do with it. I'm talking OUTSIDE Abyssea testing of course lol, and when I say testing the limits I mean like pushing for 1k+ dmg (or more) with any weapon skill. Why would a WAR put down a GA if they don't have experience pushing the limits of any other weapon? They wouldn't lol.
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A+ weapons are pretty easy to do dmg with, you just point and shoot and BOOSH. Non Main-job weapons take a bit of testing to get the most out of them. A good example test that I did a few months back was successfully clearing 1k dmg with Combo more than once lol. Then testing to see what I could skillchain together to push it further.
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"Why would I do that when I can use a GA", is what most folks would ask, unfortunately lol. I just laugh, and say you're one of those people that would question,"Why would I ride a bike when I have a car?" It's about enjoying the freedom of choice and variety :) not just being the best at one weapon. You should strive to get the most out of any selected weapon option ^^ That's what a WAR is, VARIETY and CHOICE. I consider it VERY limited that some jobs like WHM can only wield like 4 weapons, and have to be stuck using their Main weapon only if they want to do any kind of moderate melee dmg. That's just not fun in my eyes :) ,though it's perfectly fine for others.
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I would say given the opportunity to test all the new possibilities that this JA would open up, it would be completely up the user to make the most use out of it. Which would help clearly distinguish even more so a professional WAR from an inexperienced-standard WAR. An inexperienced WAR would do well to just focus on Abyssea triggers with it, and GA and Axe until they put time into mastering the other weapons. I'm almost certain a pro WAR would bring new light to most all of the under appreciated ws's that most other jobs neglect due to just plain o'l misunderstanding of how to use them. Either way it would be a blast in my opinion ^^

hiko

03-11-2011, 01:26 AM

I had a similar idea but not war restricted:
<skill> mastery merit (2lvl): lower 'weapon skills rank' by 1
(wsr 1= all job , wsr2 sub job need, wsr3 main job needed ex hexa strike is wsr3 (whm main only) with one point in club mastery it became wsr2 ( active /whm)with 2 point wsr1 (all job available))

on your idea instead off limiting in #WS just limit to the curently equiped weapon
5min recast/duration, switch weapon cancel it

kingfury

03-11-2011, 01:32 AM

@ Hiko: That would be interesting

Redfrost

03-11-2011, 12:35 PM

kingfury

03-11-2011, 02:49 PM

Man KingFury I respect your passion for adding new War stuff and for that I hope they add some cool things. I was merely trying to say that compared to other jobs WAR has been given A LOT. If they did end up letting us use all the cool weapon skills it would definitely be fun to play with.
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Thanks Redfrost :) and I have to agree that WAR has received lots of stuff over the years, but some of the stuff was just... y'know... meh lol. Some was ground breaking like Sekkanoki(was kind've an indirect non-WAR JA gift lol but great none the less), but even after seeing how nice Restraint can boost dmg, it's just not very practical to use during fast pace battles. I just hope my suggestion sparks some thought amongst the Dev team is all. If they can make it more fair than even I'm proposing, I'll be a happy camper lol.

Mojo

03-11-2011, 03:23 PM

Restraint is just as good in fast pace battles as drawn out ones. It's effectiveness is based on the number of hits between weaponskills, not the rate at which you build TP. There's nothing impractical about it.

Again, this is an absurdly stupid idea. Just another thread asking for SE to break a job they like to play.

kingfury

03-11-2011, 03:57 PM

lol Believe me, I've THOROUGHLY tested Restraint with absolutely every single weapon a WAR can use, so I know exactly how to use it and get the most out of it Mojo. If you think you're getting the proper dmg boost by using it ws to ws, you're wrong friend and you need to test more with it.
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If you can read everything I've posted so far and still believe this, I absolutely know you're not a WAR fan lol. I've giving valid reasons why this JA would be fruitful for WAR in every argument against the concept thus far and here you come with your two cents lol. I've even explained how it shouldn't break things for any job in even the slightest way since Job Abilities are what set each job apart from another. At this point I'm convinced you'd feel this way if WAR got anything new added to their JA list lol! "What's this?! WAR can do something else?? BROKEN!!" /laugh
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Anywho, you have every right to your opinion, and thanks for sharing ^^

kingfury

03-11-2011, 04:47 PM

WARs are very versatile, but they aren't always asked to come to certain events due to other jobs simply because of their differences. SCH's the same way. SCH can both nuke and cure, but it by no means can replace either a nuker or a healer. Your suggestion is simply saying SCH by DESIGN should replace BLM and a WHM. WARs should replace all other DDs, tanks, healers and nukers. I mean, they're DESIGNed to be versatile. You're the one that said,
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lol looking back over this post again... I just can't bring myself to even begin to process these horrible responses man lol. It's like you're agreeing with me and disagreeing with at the same time on some of these >< lol but I'm gonna show you enough respect to respond though since you did take the time to at least create a long post my friend. Thank you for your feedback Valkrist /salute ... even though I truly couldn't make heads or tails of most of it >< Most of the stuff I said you simply took completely out of context and went 360 degrees in the other direction lol so perhaps there was just a bit of misunderstanding going on. It's all good though :)

noodles355

03-11-2011, 05:15 PM

The simple fact of the matter is that even if you had access to all those weaponskills, Ukko's Fury and Raging Rush would still be better than all of them, inside and outside abyssea. Your JA doesn't actually give you anything more than a toy for when you want to play around with different WSs after you've gotten bored of Ukko's or RR. That's all it does to "improve" war.

You don't seem to understand that whatever boost you think it would give to war would in no way whatsoever balance out the mass culling of other jobs this would lead to.
The other day we had a big Turul farming session and took every blue proc with us. We had to have Rng, Drg, Thf, Pld, War, Nin, Sam, Drk, Whm, Mnk. With your new JA we wouldn't have needed any of those at all and would have made to with just a War, Thf for TH and Whm to heal. Your JA just put Rng, Drg, Pld, Drk and Mnk out of a job. How can you possibly think that the fun factor your war gains by being able access to many (but still worse than RR and Ukko's) can possibly be worth more than that?

You're insane. And don't you dare try and use the "There's content outside abyssea :rolleyes:!" arguent because it is stupid and weak. Yes there is content outside abyssea, but that doesn't change the fact that abyssea is the majority of the content people now play and anything that adversely affects it so drastically is a major issue.

Also stop calling people friend. I'm not your friend, buddy.

kingfury

03-11-2011, 05:46 PM

lol Nah, I wouldn't call anyone as disrespectful as you "friend" so you don't have to worry about that lol. You sound a bit childish to me, but lets focus on your weak arguments shall we.
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1st off, you're proving your lack of knowledge and inexperience of WAR and their use of weapons with your 1st comment. Especially if you're referring to Abyssea dmg. I don't have to wonder if you've ever even tried to experiment with any other weapons inside or outside of Abyssea since you're answering it for me. Do yourself a favor and go enter Abyssea by yourself and play around with your Atma choices in reference to some new weapon skills you haven't tried mod'ing before. There's a whole host of ws that can clear 10k dmg easily so long as you set your Atmas correctly, but you'll never know until you try for yourself ok. Do that for yourself, no one else.
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Ok... I'll say this ONE last time... nice and slowly... you're fears of a WAR being able to proc red and blue effectively over all those jobs... you ready?... IS ALREADY A REALITY MAN!! lol. A lowman group can already take 2-3 ppl inside Abyssea during the right trigger time of game day and successfully trigger both Red and Blue using a WAR. This doesn't deny anyone the use of those other jobs fer crying out loud. That's so stupid to say, jeeze. Go stand in Port Jeuno for a few hours and see if non WAR folks have a problem being picked up for Abyssea parties dude. SE DESIGNED the Abyssea system to be accessible to WARs, so just get over it already. Ok, that being squashed, lets move on.
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If you don't know how to occupy your own time outside of Abyssea, I feel sorry for you. There's still PLENTY of content to enjoy outside of Abyssea, and I do just fine enjoying my time away from it. I don't know what job(s) you play as your main, but if you can't find anything else to achieve other than Abyssea based on it's "God-like mode" system, then I'm sure your days of playing FFXI are numbered lol. Take a break from Abyssea for a week and find what made the game fun for you is what I would suggest.
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In closing, your arguments are as weak as your manners. I didn't design WAR to be adept in 13 weapons, SE did. Don't call me insane for wanting to further push a system that's ALREADY in place. Technically you're already whining about the fact that WAR can do what it can do by triggering effectively with so many weapons in Abyssea, so I'm sure there's not much room in your mind for understanding my proposal. And please stop trying to put "game balance" and "Abyssea" together >< it's just crazy. Abyssea is an add-on battle area that lets individuals become gods... it's not meant to be "balanced" at all... fer cryin out loud. End "buddy" /laugh

Arcon

03-11-2011, 05:47 PM

kingfury

03-11-2011, 06:21 PM

I think it's rather simple.. you're arguing that this JA would promote versatility, but that's only half the truth. On a larger scale, comparing different jobs, it reduces versatility and just promotes redundancy. If you really wanna play with other WSs, you should just level those jobs.
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However, I don't think it's a bad thing we don't have it. Why is a WAR supposed to have everything good? Your argument sounds like "We are so versatile with all our skills, it makes only sense to make us even more versatile!" and disregarding the purposes and qualities of other jobs.

Maybe you'd feel different about it if you actually levelled other jobs, saw what they had to offer. No job is supposed to excel at everything, much less WAR, giving its original "jack of all trades, master of none" status (or as it is in this case, master of one).
Also, 360 degrees make a full turn.
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Edit: Other WSs would also be worse than Steel Cyclone and King's Justice. WAR already has very useful and hard WSs for every occasion, Raging Rush for general damage, King's Justice for Mighty Strikes, Steel Cyclone for Warrior's Charge/Mighty Strikes for spike damage and possibly to close Darkness, even debuffing WS like Full Break, all on one weapon. Add a secondary weapon, at which they also excel, and you get a stunning WS with Smash Axe and another high damage WS with Rampage. They even get a devastating AoE elemental WS with Cataclysm, they have lower staff skill, but with their high accuracy and Retaliation, TP generation is not an issue, and skill doesn't matter for the WS itself. So I really don't see anything WAR could complain about, other than not having everything, which is a groundless complaint.
Edit 2:
Other than Ukko's Fury and Steel Cyclone? On a different weapon than GA? Show me.
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At this point I'm kinda just doing circles and explaining the same thing over and over /stagger lol. Point WAR can do 11/15 sword ws's that a PLD can do currently. That's a lot of the same ws's, considering I'm including Relic, Mythic, and Emp. ws in that tally (non of which my proposed JA would unlock), which if taken out of the tally would make it more like 11/12. Does this take away from what a PLD is? The simple answer is no. It would be the same for any other job if a WAR had 3/4 ws based on the weapon they were using. Why? Simple, a PLD can do things a WAR can't via their JAs, and thus makes them absolutely unique. The same is with every job in FFXI. I'm not asking for JAs here with my proposal, only to access a few more ws's than we already have access to. No more no less. I've already said that I respect what other jobs bring, and wouldn't want to disrupt over all game play diversity in the slightest.
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I'm not asking for WAR to excel at "everything" lol only what SE designed them to excel at, weapon usage.
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lol Go try Sanguine blade out a bit with the right Atmas and Gear for starters (you'll need both, so don't try to do this with standard ws gear since it's not a standard melee ws... I'm sad that I actually felt the need to edit and add this very note in... but based on what I've been hearing throughout this thread, I really feel it needed to be said ><). In terms of Abyssea dmg, the possibilities are too many to list, seriously. My point is NO ONE EVER TEST these other weapons lol. They're not just "non Main Job" weapons once you take the time and really see what they can do. I would bet money SE is just as baffled at the lack of non GA and Axe weapon usage from most WARs as I am.

noodles355

03-11-2011, 06:53 PM

lol Nah, I wouldn't call anyone as disrespectful as you "friend" so you don't have to worry about that lol. You sound a bit childish to me, but lets focus on your weak arguments shall we.No, what's childish is wanting to kill off a load of jobs in the most played area of the game just to make one job more fun.

1st off, you're proving your lack of knowledge and inexperience of WAR and their use of weapons with your 1st comment. Especially if you're referring to Abyssea dmg. I don't have to wonder if you've ever even tried to experiment with any other weapons inside or outside of Abyssea since you're answering it for me. Do yourself a favor and go enter Abyssea by yourself and play around with your Atma choices in reference to some new weapon skills you haven't tried mod'ing before. There's a whole host of ws that can clear 10k dmg easily so long as you set your Atmas correctly, but you'll never know until you try for yourself ok. Do that for yourself, no one else.Rubbish. POIDH. Unless you're talking about playing with primeval brew, you are talking out of your behind. There is not a whole host of WSs that can clear 10k damage purely down to atma choices. You are lieing and making up false data to try and justify your argument. There are 4 types of weaponskill. Magic WS (Trueflight, Aeolian Edge, Wildfire, Cloudsplitter), Crit Hit physical WS (Raging Rush, Rampage, Evisceration, Vorpal Blade), non-crit hit physical WS (Guillotine, Penta Thrust, Tachi: Gekko, Dancing Edge, Asuran Fists) and there are "special" WS (Spirits Within, Atonement). The last two catagories will never match the first two catagories in damage, even if you use ideal atmas for each individual catagory. The first two are the only worthwhile options, one involes sticking Razed Ruins, DA/TA, WSC and Crit+ boosting atmas, the other invovles stacking Mab+ and Element Damage+ atmas. That is the extent of the atma choices you are left with. The best atmas for for most of the WS in one catagory are basically the same, possibly swapping one atma for another depending on job (Example: Blade Hi you'd use GH as your 3rd atma, Drakesbane you'd use VV, Evisceration you'd use A/O). You really have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Also, unless you are fighting Qutrubs your WS wont be hitting 10k "easilly" even with ideal atmas.

Ok... I'll say this ONE last time... nice and slowly... you're fears of a WAR being able to proc red and blue effectively over all those jobs... you ready?... IS ALREADY A REALITY MAN!! lol. A lowman group can already take 2-3 ppl inside Abyssea during the right trigger time of game day and successfully trigger both Red and Blue using a WAR. This doesn't deny anyone the use of those other jobs fer crying out loud. That's so stupid to say, jeeze. Go stand in Port Jeuno for a few hours and see if non WAR folks have a problem being picked up for Abyssea parties dude. SE DESIGNED the Abyssea system to accessible to WARs, so just get over it already. Ok, that being squashed, lets move on.You are ignorant and stupid. Yes, for NMs that are popped you can rely on claiming it at the specific time of day. But for timed NMs this is not always the case. Furthermore even if this was the case, you're still wrong. Which Blue proc type can war proc on it's own? It's certainly not piercing. Without Hexa strike and any H2H WS after spinning attack, it's not blunt. And without Pld's Swift Blade, Drk's Cross Reaper and any Katana or GK skill, it's not slashing either. So which is it?

If you don't know how to occupy your own time outside of Abyssea, I feel sorry for you. There's still PLENTY of content to enjoy outside of Abyssea, and I do just fine enjoying my time away from Abyssea. I don't know what job(s) you play as your main, but if you can't find anything else to achieve other than Abyssea based on it's "God-like mode" system, then I'm sure your days of playing FFXI are numbered lol. Take a break from Abyssea for a week and find what made the game fun for you is what I would suggest.You've further proved you're fighting a losing argument by having to make incorrect assumptions agsinst me to try and back me into a corner. You have no proof that I don't spend a lot of time farming kirin pops in sky, or farming torques and capes in sea, or farming Dynamis lord drops in xarcabard with a static. You know absolutely nothing about my playstyle and the fact you have to make assumptions like that to try and boost your argument shows how inherently weak your argument is. Also you have completely missed the point. It has nothing to do with the fact that there is content outside abyssea, or even if what you personally play more is outside abyssea. It's about what the majority of the playerbase play the most, and that is abyssea and you need to accept that. You may play a lot of non-abyssea content, guess what? So do I. Guess What else? We are the minority. You can't reasonably force your ideal on a game that will give a small boost to the minority whilst greatly hurting the majority of the player base. To even suggest such a thing is idiotic.

In closing, your arguments are as weak as your manners. I didn't design WAR to be adept in 13 weapons, SE did. Don't call me insane for wanting to further push a system that's ALREADY in place. Technically you're already whining about the fact that WAR can do what it can do by triggering effectively with so many weapons in Abyssea, so I'm sure there's not much room in your mind for understanding my proposal. And please stop trying to put "game balance" and "Abyssea" together >< it's just crazy. Abyssea is an add-on battle area that lets individuals become gods... it's not meant to be "balanced" at all... fer cryin out loud. End "buddy" lolI may have bad manners but that doesn't make me any less correct in my points. Abyssea is the most played area of the game currently and although it may be currently unbalanced towards certain jobs, what you are suggesting would unbalance it even further. Your argument seems to be "it's already unbalanced so it doesn't matter if it's unbalanced even further". This is a completely retarded argument.

And stop saying lol all the time, it's childish and irratating. There is nothing remotely laugh-out-loud about this topic apart from maybe the absurdity of your idea.

Dreimar

03-11-2011, 07:04 PM

kingfury

03-11-2011, 07:07 PM

@ Noodless: LOL ... wait, wait... LOL :)

kingfury

03-11-2011, 07:10 PM

OkOk that Ja could be funny and usefull , but they wont never add it do to the loss other jobs will get, into abyssea at least.
I will be happy to just get dagger ws .. 341 skill and no ws past energy steal , besides evisceration, seems weird :\
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Amen Bro :) I feel your pain on that dagger usage. I can go neck and neck with a THF usin Evisceration so I'm curious for more ^^

Vagrua

03-11-2011, 07:25 PM

It doesn't seem like a bad idea to me. Something for warriors to play around with. The quested/mythic/emp/relic weaponskills would still make other jobs unique in their own ways. Seems like you put a lot of thought into it also with the description and pics. Just an addition of mine would be changing your weapon would make the status effect of the ability wear off to where you wouldn't be able to use all the weaponskills of a newly equipped weapon immediately. That doesn't sound so game breaking to me. :)

kingfury

03-11-2011, 07:39 PM

@Noodles: Okay, I've caught my breath from /laughing at your hissy fit post and I'll try to wrap up a reply quickly for ya :) (is a smiley face ok for ya then? Everyone luvs a smiley face ^^)
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What can I say to someone that misconstrues, misinterpretes, and resorts to name calling all in an effort to sound like they know what they're talkin about?... /sigh it's tough. As a whole, I'm gonna have to say "NO" you don't know what you're talking about.
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On the subject of Abyssea being a non balanced area, you've already agreed with me, so that means you lose the argument man. No need to beat a dead horse right? WARs win the award for being MVPs inside Abyssea okay. The area was designed to be "broken" in the 1st place, so any fears you have of maintaining some sort of fantasy "balance" is misplaced from the get go. It's pretty easy to understand.
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On the subject of dmg in Abyssea, I say GO TRY IT FOR YOURSELF! Don't take my friggin' word for it PLEASE! Go test for yourself. I will however add that you have to use the right gear for this testing though, but I assumed that would be understood when I shouldn't have obviously :) (see no "LOL" ^^)
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On the subject of triggering using only a WAR, again I assumed you understood that I was referring to blunt time slots and that yes of course there is still a chance that the trigger won't happen due to the few H2H ws that a WAR can't use and good o'l Hexa Strike. However, I'd say about 8/10 having access to access to near all club (except Hexa) and staff and one H2H ws usually works out as good odds in favor of the WAR being able to trigger Blue. And the same goes for Red triggers, but again a WAR has pretty great odds compared to any other job at proc'ing Red all by themselves. At least that's what I've experienced. So I'm not sure if that makes me... wait, lemmie go back up and check the hardcore 3rd grade playground names you chose... ah yes, "ignorant and stupid", but hopefully that helps clear things up for you.
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On the topic of how you spend your time outside Abyssea: I didn't assume a damn thing lol. Go back and read my words man, I said "If you don't know how to occupy your own time outside of Abyssea, I feel sorry for you.". The use of "IF" constitutes that I'm not trying to assume, but rather speak in a questioning tone. Go look up the word assumption perhaps, and maybe that will clear your head on this misunderstanding. Anywho, good for you and sky pops /cheer
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Annnndd that's about all I have energy for at this point :) (another smiley face) If you go back and read, your so called "points" were not even defended well... other than the great job you did at name calling and such... cause that took some effort i'm sure. Okie Dokie, have a good one.

kingfury

03-11-2011, 07:49 PM

Arcon

03-11-2011, 08:20 PM

What noodles said was on point. He defended what he said pretty well, if anything you should look up the definition of ignorant and arrogant, because it appears you're both. All of his points are valid, you seem to make up things, like that WAR can do decent damage with other weapons outside of Abyssea or that there's "a host of WS" capable of breaking 10k, and assume things about others, like that we only live inside Abyssea (and yes, you did imply that, since that response was directed at him/us, unless you were talking to someone else and avoiding his point, which makes that statement misleading and misplaced) or telling us to "GO TRY IT FOR YOURSEL[VES]", as if we didn't. Also..

lol Go try Sanguine blade out a bit with the right Atmas and Gear for starters [..]

I actually didn't try out Sanguine Blade with a decent setup yet, since I imagined it's like any other magical WS. But when you said that I thought maybe I was wrong? As it turns out... no.

Since you keep telling us to try for ourselves, here goes... Hecate's Earring, Novio Earring, Uggalepih Pendant, Templar Hammer offhand, which is pretty much all the MAB WAR can get (missing a total of 4% from very situational gear that no one has), so filled up the rest with STR. Full furtherance abyssites. Got Baying Moon, Ultimate and Cosmos as Atma, BLM sub for MAB trait. Damage was ~2k. Where did I go wrong?

I seriously doubt anything but Ukko's Fury and Steel Cyclone can exceed 10k damage, and even those require exceptional gear (and luck). Not just for WAR actually, I'm having a hard time imagining other jobs doing over 10k with any WS. Maybe RNGs with Wildfire on an ice mob with the right Atma? If anyone at all had a Redemption, could try Quietus stacked with Sneak Attack, apart from that I don't see any option to break 10k.

Maybe I'm even missing something, I don't know, and I don't care, either way your statement is just false and you're offending others constantly by thinking you're superior and know everything about WAR and all its possibilities and uses, in- and outside of Abyssea. And you've demonstrated on several occasions that that's not right. I'm starting to think you're just trolling people with your posts, it's hard to believe you're serious sometimes..

kingfury

03-11-2011, 11:36 PM

"What noodles said was on point. He defended what he said pretty well, if anything you should look up the definition of ignorant and arrogant, because it appears you're both. All of his points are valid, you seem to make up things, like that WAR can do decent damage with other weapons outside of Abyssea or that there's "a host of WS" capable of breaking 10k,--"
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Give me one point of his that was "valid"? The part about an already "imbalanced" Abyssea being in danger of becoming "imbalanced" by WAR being able to effectively trigger most all triggers? The fear that other jobs will no longer be invited to Abyssea events if a WAR could even further efficiently trigger Red and Blue? (Which is just silly) Or about the other random mess all brought on by the blatant blind random attack mode he was in at the time? His slighted understanding of what Abyssea was designed for is what keeps him from making a valid point.
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YES, you could bring an entire alliance inside Abyssea to have a 100% chance of triggering Red and Blue, but the point I'm making is (if you're willing to plan around it, and try your luck and have the patience to pop a NM x2+ times if needed LIKE IN THE OLD DAYS before we were spoiled by Abyssea's lovely trigger system ^^) SE designed it so that you can pull this process off with a single WAR due to the variety they have should you not have EVERY job needed to trigger. WAR has at least ONE chance of triggering in ALL trigger time slots based on their selected sub job... Again, ALL trigger time slots. No other job can say this. Of course it's not as efficient as having 100% trigger capabilities, but it's no different than jobs being able to solo powerful NMs in Abyssea with 0 party support whatsoever. The possibility to do so is built in ALREADY.
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The zone caters to both small groups and large depending on what you have. My proposed JA would do nothing to put any jobs "out of work" especially if after using Weapon Mastery, the unexpected happened and the WAR wasn't successful while attempting to trigger the NM (which can and does happen often). The other jobs would just step in to fill the need like they should. Triggering is just one small dynamic of Abyssea battles, but you guys are blowing it up to be like the only reason jobs go there. Battle strategy amongst party members is still king while inside Abyssea, and I see no valid reason this would fall to the way side simply because the LS WAR handled the triggers for the fight. After you get triggers, it's business as usual in terms of working as a TEAM using everyones JA's and skills to triumph over the NM together.
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Another point is, have you forgotten the days when a NM hunting party or LS was dependent on having a single job in their ranks, THF, to be the integral key player in deciding whether the fight was even worth attempting? Just step outside of your thinking for one second and just consider that MAYBE SE WANTED WAR to be that new integral key player for the most part of Abyssea treasures. They've of course allowed THF to still play a big role in treasure drops, but just looking at the trigger system as a whole, there's no other job that is targeted to shine like that of the WAR in this zone. Then there's the fact that triggering is not even 100% guaranteed to work every time, but I hope you get what I'm saying at this point. /inhale :)
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The comment he brought up in a recent post was that no other weapon choice could exceed Ukko's Fury or Steel Cyclone dmg in Abyssea while on WAR. Whether he was talking brewed or not I'm not sure, but I assumed he meant overall which includes Brewed ws damage. I never said that the 10k damage I quoted was with or without brew, but I would think it would be understood I was speaking in such terms, so sorry if I didn't make that clear. Yeah "Brewed dmg" with Sanguine blade using all the right gear and Atma has EASILY cleared 10k+ dmg for me on numerous occasions of doing so. Aeolian Edge (non WAR ws) is another weapon that can clear 15k+ dmg while using Brews just as another example. I'll commend you for at least testing it out for yourself though, so good job. Your posted findings at least confirms what I'm saying is true about other weapon choices aside from GA and Axe being able to effectively and efficiently shell out high dmg numbers (Are you making sure to save up to 300 TP before using it? Just checking) There are people that can't consistently clear ~2k dmg with a GA or Axe even while inside Abyssea and you did it with a sword ws you said you've never tested before! You're testing indirectly supports that my claims of testing other weapons to find out their potential holds some validity. At any rate, I'm not just pulling things out of the air. Keep playing with different set ups to see what you come up with. Try mixing STR and INT gear and some STR or INT Atmas to see the difference. Oh and don't forget to charge the ws with Restraint to it's fullest when trying for MAX dmg output numbers (since you didn't say whether you used this JA while testing).
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Now this is just silly right here, Ughhhh:
"assume things about others, like that we only live inside Abyssea (and yes, you did imply that, since that response was directed at him/us, unless you were talking to someone else and avoiding his point, which makes that statement misleading and misplaced) or telling us to "GO TRY IT FOR YOURSEL[VES]", as if we didn't. Also.."
You're doing the same silly crap Noodles was doing by over reading/misconstruing what I said. I didn't imply a damn thing here. I told HIM to go test for HIMSELF. How the hell you got to the understanding that I'm talking about anyone else is just silly. You just want to be mad is what it sounds like.
-----
I've said plainly, that I don't dare claim to know everything about this game in a previous post, but I do take pride in understanding WAR, and NO I'm not saying I'm superior by saying that. It means I've played the job for over 7 years now and I know a whole lot about it. THAT'S IT. I've said nothing arrogant to date. If someone is trying to argue a point without ever testing the data themselves, I've urged them to get more data. I've never said/implied/hinted or whatever other silly crap you might throw back at me at this point (since I'm sure there's no end to this kind of hissy fight. You'll just find some group of words to argue back and forth with. /sigh), that I'm better than anyone else by anything I've said. By saying I haven't met a WAR that has taken as much effort as I have into massively testing all weapons over the years is a fact in my case alone. I HAVEN'T MET ONE. I'm not saying there aren't other WARs that in fact do take the same pride in understanding their limits, I just haven't met them personally. /sigh this is starting to become a chore just diffusing some of these reply's.
-----
I'm speaking plain and clear english, but you two are hearing what you want to hear. If something I've said is unclear, just ask me to clarify before you start reverting to the kiddy name calling in the future. I've successfully debated with well over 10 ppl on this thread (including you two) without disrespecting one or calling them silly names out of frustration. (Here, THIS isn't an implication) You should learn to control yourself/temper if you can't hold a debate with someone without taking things so personally. An intelligent person can debate respectfully even when they don't agree with the other party and come away from the discussion with dignity. Try that.

Kuwabaraone

03-13-2011, 10:21 AM

YO! King! The idea is nice, but how about adjusting it so that it's not the high end WSs of other jobs. In other words (using MNK for example) go all the way up to BEFORE the Questable WSs, meaning you stop at the WSs prior to Asuran Fists. In THAT way, you still have to be a MNK to access Asuran Fists. Yeah, it'll still suck that you don't get access to it, but that may be fair to do it that way too. Also, I was thinking that Weapon Mastery could also lower the missing rate by a small percentage, but not increase the Crit Rate (That's Blood Rage). Finally, WARs have YET to unlock the ability to use Eastern Weaponry (G.Katana, Katana) so we can't say they have 'Mastered' all weapons.

KB1

PS. I think I may have posted a little late. Just realized you may have already addressed the 'Quested WS' issue. My bad. T.T)

kingfury

03-13-2011, 02:11 PM

@Kuwabaraone: ^^ Thanks for the feedback man / and yea I agree that the very Job specific quested ws such as those (Asuran Fist and the two ranged quested ws's are about the only ones WAR can't use anyway lol ) and Relic, Mythic, and Emp. should stay Job specific. Very cool idea about the acc + too. I agree/
----
Oh what a poop throwing fit it would cause if SE gave WARs access to GK and Katana huh lol. You see all the drama I started by just asking for a few more ws's >< It would awesome if they did though :) hint, hint SE

noodles355

03-14-2011, 12:58 PM

If you think by agreeing with part of your opponent's argument that you then lose the argument completely then you are a complete idiot.

"I believe stealing is wrong and that everyone who steals should be immidiatly killed without trial."
You agree with me that stealing is wrong right? But my argument of everyone who does should be killed is obviously retarded. But if you want to argue against me you:ve already lost the argument because you agree with part of it.

Edit: also you say "dont take my word for it and go try it yourself" with regards to your awesome 10k dmg ws. FFXI is run by maths and equations. Tell me exactly what weapon, weaponskill, gear and atmas you use, and against what enemy youuse to achieve this. You keep stating how easy it is and telling people to go try but you never actually tell them how to try, so of course no one is never going to believe you. Either post proof of you doing it yourself or post how you do it so others can try it themselves and make their own conclusion.

As the above post states, even though you try to justify it by saying you used the word "if" the simple fact is that you still implied that much at me. Which was wrong of you to do so.

I will leave this post in saying that the only points you addressed in reply to my previous post were on every subject except the reasons I stated against the inclusion of this JA. You did not reply to any of my post regarding abyssea being the most played area, and the unbalancing of abyssea even-further with this job ability.

You have no valiid arguments for the inclusion of this JA that outweigh the valid arguments against the inclusion of this JA, and thus the argument is over.

The simple fact is that whilst abyssea is already unbalanced, you want to unbalane it even more. I see no possible way you can ever argue or justify making abyssea more unbalanced than it already is.

Superchicken

03-14-2011, 01:29 PM

this not only overpowers WAR but is not needed. What war would seriously use something like dancing edge? Even if you dont have the empyerain weapon skill Raging Rush would still be better, but then you gonna say what if i'm fighint a mob weak to piercing, then i'd say polearm penta go go.

Again your asking for too much with this imo. WARs are fine how they are

noodles355

03-14-2011, 01:29 PM

[B]The part about an already "imbalanced" Abyssea being in danger of becoming "imbalanced" by WAR being able to effectively trigger most all triggers?By this comment it's obvious that you believe it's either black or white: it's balanced or it's unbalanced. It can't be slightly one or the other. Let me show you how you are wrong: Inside abyssea with equal gear and ideal atmas, Drg does more damage than Drk. This is a simple fact due to the lack of good drk crit WS and due to Drakesbane being an insane weponskill. They7re both DDs. DD is their primary function. But Drg does more damage. They both have other functions too but in their main function (DDing) Drk is worse. That's unbalanced. If it was balanced they would have equal DD Output. So now they're already unbalanced, I think it's fine to give drg 200DMG 10Dly lance and a 5.0ftp 100%STR WSC 8 hit critical weaponskill. They're already unbalanced so nothing changes.
Oh wait it does because where it was slightly unbalanced before it is now completely rediculously unbalanced. Do you understand yet? It doesn't go from "unbalanced" to "unbalanced". It goes from "unbalanced" to "even more unbalanced".
The fear that other jobs will no longer be invited to Abyssea events if a WAR could even further efficiently trigger Red and Blue? (Which is just silly)It's not silly. Or have you forgotten the times in ToAU where all people wanted were Nin War Sam Rdm Brd? Remember those days? Yeah, if you wren't one of those jobs then you could still get invites to merit parties, but they were much rarer and given the choice most players would take one of those above jobs. IT would be exactly the same thing here. Yeah, you dont have to take a War but war would be the most preferred job and given the choice its the one people would always take,

I really don:t know if I can spell out those points any simpler for you. You have yet to provide a counter-argment with points that outweigh the problems listed by me and the other posters in this thread.
You are pig-headed and not open to criticism. You cant see the forest for the trees.

Kuwabaraone

03-14-2011, 09:18 PM

...your asking for too much with this imo. WARs are fine how they are

This may very well be true, but let's be honest here. We can go further, MUCH FURTHER. :) In terms of raw damage, yes, Raging Rush and Ukko's Fury is pretty hard to beat, but I wouldn't mind using Dancing Edge on WAR if I have the skill level for it. Can't really call us "Weapons Specialists" if we cannot have access to nearly all weapon skills. :)

KB1

noodles355

03-14-2011, 10:02 PM

Leebo

03-14-2011, 11:22 PM

This may very well be true, but let's be honest here. We can go further, MUCH FURTHER. :) In terms of raw damage, yes, Raging Rush and Ukko's Fury is pretty hard to beat, but I wouldn't mind using Dancing Edge on WAR if I have the skill level for it. Can't really call us "Weapons Specialists" if we cannot have access to nearly all weapon skills. :)

KB1

WAR's don't NEED to go much further, they're great as they are and that's partly why other jobs have more attention on them with updates. Dancing Edge on WAR? Really? I agree with noodles here, its a cool idea but only from WAR's perspective, and would be a slap in the face for other jobs. We already have a lot of proc WS to make us incredibly versatile but covering all bases is just a little too much for just one job.

Gallus

03-15-2011, 03:24 AM

I got through the first few pages of replies. In short, I don't like the idea. It really wouldn't make much sense that the WAR would suddenly be able to use weaponskills, then abruptly not be able to. It's not like they're pulling out a book mid-battle (*cough*SCH*cough*), or suddenly shifting their feet to gain access to an array of attacks they have been lacking, then suddenly resifting to lose these attacks. Yes it's a fantasy game that has dragons, giant plant creatures, and hairy infant player characters, but from a battle standpoint, it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Superchicken

03-15-2011, 03:39 AM

This may very well be true, but let's be honest here. We can go further, MUCH FURTHER. :) In terms of raw damage, yes, Raging Rush and Ukko's Fury is pretty hard to beat, but I wouldn't mind using Dancing Edge on WAR if I have the skill level for it. Can't really call us "Weapons Specialists" if we cannot have access to nearly all weapon skills. :)

KB1

war is a weapon specialist in the terms that they can use more weapons and have higher skill rating in more weapons than any other job. You don't need every WS to be a specialist with that weapon. You specialize in the use of many weapons not the use of many WS's even though you do that too but it doesn't need to be every weapon skill, thats what makes other jobs unique. You want Dancing Edge you level THF or DNC, you want asuran fists you level monk, etc. Jobs need somekind of uniqueness amongst them one job cant have it all.

kingfury

03-15-2011, 04:06 AM

By this comment it's obvious that you believe it's either black or white: it's balanced or it's unbalanced. It can't be slightly one or the other. Let me show you how you are wrong: Inside abyssea with equal gear and ideal atmas, Drg does more damage than Drk. This is a simple fact due to the lack of good drk crit WS and due to Drakesbane being an insane weponskill. They7re both DDs. DD is their primary function. But Drg does more damage. They both have other functions too but in their main function (DDing) Drk is worse. That's unbalanced. If it was balanced they would have equal DD Output. So now they're already unbalanced, I think it's fine to give drg 200DMG 10Dly lance and a 5.0ftp 100%STR WSC 8 hit critical weaponskill. They're already unbalanced so nothing changes.
Oh wait it does because where it was slightly unbalanced before it is now completely rediculously unbalanced. Do you understand yet? It doesn't go from "unbalanced" to "unbalanced". It goes from "unbalanced" to "even more unbalanced".It's not silly. Or have you forgotten the times in ToAU where all people wanted were Nin War Sam Rdm Brd? Remember those days? Yeah, if you wren't one of those jobs then you could still get invites to merit parties, but they were much rarer and given the choice most players would take one of those above jobs. IT would be exactly the same thing here. Yeah, you dont have to take a War but war would be the most preferred job and given the choice its the one people would always take,
I really don:t know if I can spell out those points any simpler for you. You have yet to provide a counter-argment with points that outweigh the problems listed by me and the other posters in this thread.
You are pig-headed and not open to criticism. You cant see the forest for the trees.
----
I'll be quick on this one. Who in the world taught you how to form an argument??!! These points are horrible man. At this point I'm concerned greatly that I'm having an argument with a 12 year old due to the fact you still can't have a discussion without the kiddy name calling lol, but I'll wrap this up quickly.
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The point I'm trying to help you understand is that YES, it absolutely can be black or white in terms of trying to whine about a misguided sense of achieving "some" balance in a zone that PROMOTES imbalance. It's very black and white in fact. It IS either a balanced area or it's NOT. If it's in fact not a balanced area, then just toss your argument out the window man, it's a wasted effort. Again, and again, I've explained that Abyssea was in no way designed to be the least bit a balanced area, so you can't put a gauge on "HOW IMBALANCED" the zone is. You're example just describes what kind of dmg Emp. weapons pull off inside Abyssea zones which is nearly impossible to reach dmg without one.
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If you somehow missed the 1st part of my original post that gives valid reasons for this JA being introduce due some blinding brain blockage in your eyes, I can understand. Like I said before though, there is no actual understanding that you're trying to reach, so me posting every screenshot in the world wouldn't help in the slightest to curb your unwillingness to reach a common understanding on this topic. I posted a friggin super clear short story recently addressing everything you
talked about, so I'm really sure there's no simpler way that I can explain further for ya. Now watch this... it was nice conversing with ya man, and I'm sorry I couldn't help ya reach some understanding of my views. End. That's how grown ups end conversations.

Superchicken

03-15-2011, 04:11 AM

Or have you forgotten the times in ToAU where all people wanted were Nin War Sam Rdm Brd? Remember those days? Yeah, if you wren't one of those jobs then you could still get invites to merit parties, but they were much rarer and given the choice most players would take one of those above jobs.

what kind merit parties were you in. Nin no thanks. why would you want a nin in a ToAU bird merit pt? give me a cor over the nin any day and if i cant get a cor i'd take double brd over nin still. NIN would be at the bottom of the barrel for a bird merit pt. I'll go even further and not take the sam in my pt either. Give me a RDM,Cor,BRD, (another COR or BRD), WAR, and KC ranger at lvl 75 and i'll show you a ToAU bird merit. Nin by no means should be a standard sought after job for a ToAU bird merit pt back in those times

Ezikiel

03-15-2011, 08:06 AM

I don't get it................

Nepharite

03-15-2011, 08:29 AM

kingfury

03-15-2011, 10:35 AM

Was there a point in reading past the first page? To me personally, this idea sounds pointless.
It could only help in red/blu procs, which is not a good enough reason.
Could someone sum up as to why this would be of any use?
----
lol ^^ Well, the main "Point" and justification for proposing this JA would be to make the next natural step in WARs evolution as a weapon specialist with high skill ratings in just about every weapon in the game. Further throughout the post, I tried to bring to light that a pro WAR could already go neck and neck with most other jobs with the limited Weapon skills they already possess, and could shine even further with access to a few more ws's at their disposal. Yeah, Abyssea would benefit from the increased number ws's in regards to WAR triggering Red and Blue, but this was not the reason I came up with this proposed JA at all. Of course, unfortunately, most folks throughout the thread can't seem to get past this part lol.
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For anyone suggesting this JA would be unfair or useless, just take a few minutes to look at what WAR already is and compare their weapon access and skill lvls to EVERY other job. I'm not suggesting anything that wouldn't make sense for WAR. SE has laid the grounds for WARs to be the best at every weapon (except GK and Katana and perhaps H2H) by lvl 99, so I'm just proposing a JA that makes that fact make full sense all around. For all those saying that it would rob the uniqueness from other jobs for WAR to gain even more access to other ws's, I say do your research right quick. WAR has access to all standard club ws plus Black Halo (the quested ws) except Hexa Strike at the moment (not including Relic,Mythic, and Emp. ws of course), but that doesn't rob one bit of uniqueness from a WHM in the slightest and it wouldn't change if WAR got Hexa Strike tomorrow. The same goes for sword, but again people can't seem to swallow the reality of a WAR having the ability to trigger nearly all Red and Blue triggers /stagger. I say screw the Abyssea part of this argument entirely, and just focus on what WARs always have been, professional weapon masters (or at least close to being such due to lack of access to the proper ws's). WARs were built this way far before Abyssea so my stance is based on 9 more levels of growth in what makes a WAR so unique in the 1st place.
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That kinda sums it up :) I suppose if I posted some evidence of the dmg numbers a WAR can do currently with the limited weaponskills we wield, it could possibly help folks understand why WARs should get further access to more dmg'ing ws's within each of the weapon classes they have access to. But it would be a long shot, and folks would probably still find a way to discredit the accomplishment and probably be upset that I was able to out dmg another's main job using their A+ weapon lol ><.

Superchicken

03-15-2011, 11:01 AM

Further throughout the post, I tried to bring to light that a pro WAR could already go neck and neck with most other jobs with the limited Weapon skills they already possess, and could shine even further with access to a few more ws's at their disposal

what is this limitation of weaponskills you speak of. To me warrior has access to very many WS as is. And lets be honest here, WARs excel at GA this day in time. Sure they are good with the Axe but still gonna favor the GAxe. They even do good with the sword, dual wield wars with off hand Ridill main hand axe or sword spamming rampage or vorpals were pretty nice as well in those ToAU merit parties but even then wars using polearm spamming penta thrust were pretty nasty. So lets look at this ok you dont get dancing edge you dont get asuran fists, when would you seriously ever utilize these anyway even if you did have them? You could say well i'm fighting piercing mobs so DE go go, but even then i'd bet you would do better with penta thrust which you already have. Well i'm fighting pots or bones and need blunt dmg, even then i dont think asuran fists would fare you much and would probably be better to just stick with a GA. In essence if you think about it ok you want this things but probably wouldn't come into very main practical situations to use them anyway.

Using whm and hexa was kind of a bad example cause your comparing a mage that stands in the back line majority of the time and aint dding anyway.

kingfury

03-15-2011, 11:20 AM

what is this limitation of weaponskills you speak of. To me warrior has access to very many WS as is. And lets be honest here, WARs excel at GA this day in time. Sure they are good with the Axe but still gonna favor the GAxe. They even do good with the sword, dual wield wars with off hand Ridill main hand axe or sword spamming rampage or vorpals were pretty nice as well in those ToAU merit parties but even then wars using polearm spamming penta thrust were pretty nasty. So lets look at this ok you dont get dancing edge you dont get asuran fists, when would you seriously ever utilize these anyway even if you did have them? You could say well i'm fighting piercing mobs so DE go go, but even then i'd bet you would do better with penta thrust which you already have. Well i'm fighting pots or bones and need blunt dmg, even then i dont think asuran fists would fare you much and would probably be better to just stick with a GA. In essence if you think about it ok you want this things but probably wouldn't come into very main practical situations to use them anyway.
Using whm and hexa was kind of a bad example cause your comparing a mage that stands in the back line majority of the time and aint dding anyway.
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Hey man,
Dagger comes to mind 1st, H2H, and then polearm and scythe next. There's a few more, but lets just start with those. A WARs dagger ws list is just depressing lol! Yet the dmg I've personally pulled off with Evisceration both outside and inside Abyssea is on par(if not more) with a THF and a DNC. I've done nicely with all the other classes listed above, but there's no telling what limits a WAR could go with them due to the limited ws's WAR has access to in these classes.
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You're post pretty much answers your question for me ^^ Aside from WAR having access to a powerhouse weapon like GA and Axe, a WAR can choose all those different great weapons based on whatever situation constitutes them exercising the SE-given choice to do so :) That's the foundation of my entire basis for posting this proposed JA. That's WAR's unique gift, variety. Who's to say what the potential possibilities would be if we had more ws's until WARs got the chance to get out and master those ws? In my opinion, only a WAR that has mastered the ws's in their possession currently would be able to truly accurately speculate the possibilities. Not saying I'm a master of all just yet, but of the things I've seen possible with WAR over the years, I personally say the possibilities would be endless. We don't even know what's in store for WAR at lvl 99 yet lol... well we do know there'll be higher combat skills at least ^^
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Nah, my reasons for cross referencing WHM's ws list to that of a WARs was to diffuse the many expressed fears that WAR having too much ws access would rob jobs of their uniqueness. Further back in the thread, I referenced PLD the same way. My point was that most standard ws's don't define a job's uniqueness, but rather Job abilities and Special high lvl Job specific ws's do. Even if other jobs got access to as many weapons as WAR has access to, WAR would still have the JA's to outclass them while using those weapons. No other job would be able to steal WARs thunder or uniqueness because of it's job abilities. Thus validating what makes them unique over all other DD's and jobs in FFXI.
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Thanks for the feedback /

Superchicken

03-15-2011, 11:58 AM

so yes war has the uniqueness of some JA's that other jobs will never be able to use, so ok well thf and dancer have the uniqueness of being able to using dancing edge yet you want to be able to use that on WAR. Darks and PLDs have the uniqueness of spinning slash yet you want to be able to use that on WAR. MNKs have a uniqueness of asuran fists but you want WAR to be able to do that. Do you see my point here. Your statement says WAR has the uniquenesss of some job abilities that makes them a powerhouse that no other job will ever see, but yet you want to take the WS that are unique to other jobs and make war be able to use them.

BlackWhirlwind

03-15-2011, 12:40 PM

I wouldnt mind having access to Spinning Slash and Guilitoine on war since were more 2handed weapon dominate

kingfury

03-15-2011, 12:54 PM

>< lol nah, you got it mixed up a bit.
Dancing Edge, Asuran Fist, Spinning slash are just ws's like all ws's WAR currently have such as Evisceration. These ws's do not make those other jobs unique, they're just ws that those jobs can use. They're more appropriately termed "exclusive" rather than "unique". If a WAR got access to those ws's tomorrow, the jobs u listed wouldn't lose any uniqueness whatsoever.
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What I said in the previous post that you may have over looked is that a WAR will never be like a MNK just because he can use Asuran Fist, and a MNK would never lose it's originality/uniqeness should it ever be allowed. A MNK has JA's that distinguish it from every other job in FFXI, the same with THF, DRK, and PLD. Then there's the high lvl job specific ws's that take large amounts of work to unlock/wield for every job in the game such as Relic, Mythic and Emp. ws. Those are the truly "unique" ws's along with JA's that would keep ALL of their uniqueness perfectly safe.
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Again, I'm not saying that WAR should get EVERY ws that these jobs have, just the standard ones that simply require the appropriate skill lvls. That's all. Does that clear things up a bit?

kingfury

03-15-2011, 12:59 PM

I wouldnt mind having access to Spinning Slash and Guilitoine on war since were more 2handed weapon dominate
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Iknowright?! lol ^^

Superchicken

03-15-2011, 01:03 PM

well my bard has well over 200 dagger skill so i should be able to use dancing edge then right? You say yes, i say no, matter of opinion to each its own. Oh but i'm not a "master of all weapons" like war so i shouldn't be able to use it, well my dagger skill is my main weapon skill as bard so then i'm a master of the dagger in that sense so i should be able to use it! Again i say "The game is working as intended" Just cause you have the skill doesn't mean you should necessarily be able to use it imo. Yes wars are the "master of weapons" which goes with how they have higher skill in more weapon areas than any other job, they are not the "master of weaponskills" which is basically waht your are asking for in a sense minus the relic, empyrean, mythic ws's.

So you need to change your title of the post to really go along with what your are asking. Mastery of Weaponry you already are, but your calling it this and asking to be a Master of Weaponskills

kingfury

03-15-2011, 01:16 PM

lol At least you understand where I'm coming from!
I respect your opinion if you feel that it shouldn't be so. I personally believe if you have the skill lvl for the ws(unless it's of the super unique, hard to get, job specific kind that is), you should be able to use the ws :) but that's me and my opinion.
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"Mastery of Weaponry you already are, but your calling it this and asking to be a Master of Weaponskills"
---
I'd say tomato/tomato(to-mah-to) to this lol but maybe you're right! In my mind, the term "Mastery" means you understand something completely on all ends of the subject matter. Like how giving a Job Trait called "Shield Mastery" to a PLD makes perfect sense, since PLDs are basically born with a shield attached to their off hand lol. With that concept in mind, as we are currently, WARs can't truly call themselves "Masters" of Weaponry just yet unless we get some serious access to the ws's related to our arsenal :) Until that day comes, terms like "Adept" and "Jack of all Trades" suits us far more appropriately.

Superchicken

03-15-2011, 01:36 PM

warrior and red mage also get sheild mastery though =) !!! but a job like BST that will utulize a shield more than a warrior doesn't, instead they get fencer. Not everything in the game makes sense or makes sense to what we want it but nothings perfect right! I enjoyed this debate! hope you did too! /cheers but i think what you are asking for will never happen, but never hurts to ask right!

kingfury

03-15-2011, 01:56 PM

Yours is the 1st debate so far that I can actually say I've enjoyed lol, so thanks for the opportunity /cheers
---
You're absolutely right about the asking thing ^^ I can only hope they've read my arguments and realistically consider the possibilities. I'm sure if the miracle of them actually considering implementing this JA ever happens, they would heavily consider every way to make it the fairest JA to all of FFXI while blessing WARs further. So here's to hoping for the best! /laterz

Airget

03-15-2011, 06:24 PM

I haven't read through the whole topic but I was going to post this earlier however no matter how you look at it the ability is a bit overpowered and it's main purpose is to just be used to make triggering easier to access.

If an ability like this were to surface it would be a lot more restrictive I'd see it more as a:
"Weapon Essence" 90
-Tap into unknown WS that you normally don't get access to for one WS-
Duration: 1min (or til you WS)
Recast: 5 mins.

While helpful to a point it doesn't become an end all ability that would make them the most reliable in the situations where the JA would come into play.

However coming from weapon mastery I've always thought it would be more intriguing to give them JT that would enhance them based on the weapon they are using. Basically the idea comes down to this:
JT-37 Weapon Affinity:
When Attacking mob with proper elemental
affinity weapon deal more dmg as well as
lower it's magic resist to that element
Example:
Great katana:Lighting
Katana:Wind
Dagger:Wind
Great Axe:Fire
Axe:Fire
Great Sword:Ice
Sword: Light

JT-75 Beastial Terror:
Based on weapon used deal more dmg to mobs
Axe-----Lizard
GA------Beast
Club----Undead
Dagger--Plantoid
H2H-----Aquan
Polearm-Dragon
Scythe--Arcana
Staff---Undead
Sword---Birds
G.Sword-Vermin
katana--Amorph
GKatana-Demon

JA-75: Exploit Rage:
Temporarily Give the JT "Beastial Terror" to those in range

90 Exploit Precision:
Increase crit hit rate when using a damage type exploit
weapon against an enemy.

---
JT-37 Weapon Affinity:
A subbable ability that has the potential to enhance damage when using the proper weapon against an enemy as well as lowering their elemental resist to that element. This could open up a new use for war sub where they could be used to help lower elemental resist rate and add more damage for mazes, or to be used to dish out more dmg during weaponskills.
---
JT-75 Beastial Terror:
While I for the most part tried to fit a weapon into each family the basic idea is that each weapon could exploit a single family tree, by having this exploit it could be possible to deal more damage when using the proper weapon against the enemy. however I also had this become a support ability
JA-75: Exploit Rage:
With this it becomes an AOE that party members can take advantage of so say you are going up against demons with 3 other SAMs in your party you can AOE your trait and enhance the damage of your party members.
--
90 Exploit Precision:
Which is simple enough basically Blunt/Slashing/Piercing if the enemt is weak against it they'll have an increased rate of being crit hit on.
---
Overall though what I tried to accomplish with these traits is to add a purpose to the use of many different weapons, in a battle you wouldn't go up against a Dragon with a dagger you would more likely use a long piercing weapon such as a Polearm to keep your distance.

Nepharite

03-16-2011, 08:16 AM

I'm still going to call the op's idea useless. Why would I want 20 more ws that I'll rarely use? Warrior's already get good ws for whats needed.

Why do people keep bring up dancing edge? Why would you use that over evisceration?

Kury

03-17-2011, 03:19 AM

well if your a dagger useing job then shut up about DE. eviceration is where its at with razed ruins

Byrth

03-17-2011, 03:25 AM

How often I'd use this JA outside Abyssea: Never
How often I'd use this JA inside Abyssea: Frequently and Grudgingly, "Hey guys, hold Lacovie for another 20 minutes so I can rotate the blue proc with Marksmanship!"

Yarly

03-17-2011, 12:17 PM

Again, this is an absurdly stupid idea. Just another thread asking for SE to break a job they like to play.

Yup, people need to stop using official forms as an official beg developers to make the game into a shitty game.

Shirkan

03-22-2011, 04:51 PM

With Warrior's current ability to wield up to 13 weapons, all with skill levels capped at the mid to high 300's and nothing below 250, and the future lvl cap to raise these skills even further; it makes absolutely every bit of sense to introduce a job ability that crowns these veterans of all things melee with something that lets them take full advantage of such a unique profession such as jack of all trades. I propose this:
WAR JA lvl 90+: "Weapon Mastery"
Job Ability Cover: http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b167/soulchld4/WeaponMastery-WEB.jpg
-------
Recast: *Edit* 4mins
Duration: *Edit* 2(maybe 3) successful (weapon skill hits target. If the ws misses the target, the weapon skill charge will not be consumed) weapon skill charges. The possibility of a 3rd weapon skill charge could be random similar to how Seigan + Third Eye works, but at least 2 charges will be guaranteed. An Icon displaying the active JA would disappear once the ws charges have been consumed. The 2-3 ws charges will remain active for up to 2 mins if not used before wearing off.
Description: “Weapon Mastery”- Temporarily allows a WAR the use of all standard
weapon skills accociated with any weapon being wielded. This does not include quested weapon skills that have not been unlocked previously. If any quested weapon skill was unlocked before the use of Weapon Mastery, the job ability will display the weapon skill in the ability list.
Detailed Description: Once used, the WAR will gain access to previously unlisted weapon skills for 2 mins. This will include job specific standard(or non quested) weapons skills such as Dancing Edge(THF and DNC specific) and Hexa Strike(WHM specific) and others like these. Access to these standard weapon skills, however, will be dependent on the current skill lvl possessed for that weapon. Weapon Mastery will not grant instant bonus skill lvls for a weapon, and thus only unlocks the appropriate weapon skill based on the skill lvls in question. If the WARs skill lvls in all weapons are capped at maximum, all standard weapon skills available for those skill lvls will become available. This also includes Ranged weapon skills like Sidewinder.
Visual example (1/2): http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b167/soulchld4/WeaponMastery-Descript-WEB.jpg
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Visual example (2/2):http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b167/soulchld4/WeaponMastery-Descript-2-WEB.jpg
------
In closing, again I'll say, WARs will be able to wield more weapons than ANY job in the game, if not better than any job by lvl 99 so it would just make sense to give WAR a reward for all those long hours of skilling up lol. Please, please consider this Job ability SE. Thank you

I like your visual examples,good work pal.Maybe in the future,outside of this Abyssea thing,we will find foes like in Limbus,that are weak to certain types of weapons,your Weapon Mastery would be fun and useful.

Personally I've put a lot of effort into making a Ukon and also working my butt off to make a relic.The last thing I want to be using is a loldagger or lolclub!

Great imagination but a horrible idea,so I give you the 'ol 5/10:p

Nvr

03-22-2011, 08:32 PM

This idea is like almost every other idea posted on these boards thus far. Some absurd request that essentially overpowers one job to the point where no others are required and that would completely imbalance several aspects of the game. It's no different than the general thread where players are requesting the feature to be able to exchange one seal for another. Any idea that completely remove diversity from the game in such a way as that is terrible. It's no surprise to me that you refer to yourself as a full time warrior. If you want to be able to use the abilities that other jobs have access to and that warrior does not, then go level those jobs instead of asking for them.

You really are the voice of reason.

LeaderofAtlantis

03-22-2011, 09:44 PM

A couple years ago I had thought it would be nice if we had a Combat Mastery Job Trait for Warrior that drew upon our sub-job for the extra skill. Basically it'd work like this:

If the sub-job had an A+ skill level, we'd receive +10 to skill for it. An A skill level would be +9 and so on down to a D that would give +1. Now they could add a second for Combat Mastery which would increase the bonuses by an additional +5 for A+, A, & A- skills; +4 for B+, B, & B-; +3 for C+, C, & C-; and +2 for D and then +1 for E. As you state as well, this could give us access to trial weaponskills if we've earned them from other jobs (like Asuran Fists from MNK).

This trait would also boost skill levels for Shield, Parry, and Evasion.

Xyon

03-31-2011, 01:28 AM

If you want to show weapon mastery for warrior, why not give warrior a job trait that allows us to switch weapons without losing TP?

SNK

06-07-2011, 10:10 AM

That would kill a lot of the uniqueness of all the other melee jobs.

It's unbalanced and unnecessary.

This in a nutshell. I know you love your war but now you're being greedy.

Kuwabaraone

06-10-2011, 12:34 AM

Well, you have to understand that prior to the release of other jobs, WAR is the ideal weapons specialist. Rather than have access to it as main, why not adjust it so that you have access to Weaponskills based on the Support Job used as WAR; that said, it would also cut damage ratio by half due to being from a Support Job as opposed to Main Job. Naturally Square Enix would be responsible for balancing and fine tuning, as it was meant to be.

KB1

kingfury

06-10-2011, 01:17 AM

This in a nutshell. I know you love your war but now you're being greedy.
-----------
^^ It's not greed, it's natural progression. By level 99, a WAR will have combat skill ratings for 13 weapons in the 300-400 range, and will be able to use them all effectively with proper gear and experience. 13 weapons are at a WARs disposal already. Is that "greed"? I didn't design WARs versatility folks, SE did. As it stands, WARs can already out damage other jobs using the skimply list of ws's we have amongst those 13 weapons as long as they know how to play the job. An experienced WAR can use a dagger with just as much efficiency as a THF or DNC in terms of damage. Our JAs, combat skill levels, JTs, and gear options make it all possible. It's already there... I'm not asking for anything that isn't already there. You can't break something that's already functioning by bolstering it.

If I was asking for Trick Attack or Barrage to be made available to WARs for a time, that would equate to trying to steal the uniqueness of other jobs. THF's still use evisceration to this day, and a WAR that's planned the gear around it can use that same ws just as effectively. This fact doesn't make that THF any less of a THF. A WAR can't DO what a THF does in terms of job performance and thus a ws is just a ws. They're used to cause damage to a monster. I've said it a few times already, even if SE gave WAR every ws in the game, no job would be in danger of losing their qualities that make them unique. Not a single one.

The Devs would have to alter WS's game-wide for this "robbing of uniqueness" to truly happen. If WS's when used by a specific job had "job specific aftermaths" (kind've like Mythics), and WAR was able to benefit from those job specific aftermath effects, THEN it would be unfair and imbalanced.

Example: Evisceration (THF, DNC)"Aftermath" reduces targets accuracy. Enhances evasion.
If WARs could benefit from those same effects, that would warrant the "greediness" you speak of. Until such a change is made to WS's game wide, plenty of jobs already share the same WS's like PLDs, BLUs, and RDMs. Do you say then that these jobs are encroaching on each others uniqueness because they share damn near every WS's Sword has to offer save Relic, and Mythic WS's (since even the Emp. WS is shared)? Of course not. Each job plays in their own unique way and has no issues because they share the same WS's.

I'll leave this Thread suggestion with this, if you don't understand what WARs can do currently with the weapon skills we already have, I fully understand this suggestion being something that's way to hard to swallow. Hell, MOST people that play WAR don't even know the potential they hold due to the box people try to put them in in terms of what they "should" be using to DD. I don't expect you to agree with something like this if you haven't been exposed to the potential that's already there within WARs design with these weapons. My suggestion is aimed at the Dev team since they are the ones that gave WAR their versatility to begin with. I simply ask that WAR continues to have a reasonable and fair outlet with these weapons as we move forward towards level 99. That is all.

Thanks for listening Devs /salute
Thanks to everyone's feedback, good or bad /

Leonlionheart

06-10-2011, 02:07 AM

This idea is HORRIBLE, stop pushing it.

kingfury

06-10-2011, 02:11 AM

LOL Then you must agree what WAR can do already is "horrifying" as well >< My ending line of my last post is the "idea" Leon. I don't care how the Devs accomplish it. ^^

"I simply ask that WAR continues to have a reasonable and fair outlet with these weapons as we move forward towards level 99. That is all."

Leonlionheart

06-10-2011, 02:13 AM

I do agree that war is better than everyone else.

Why make it more so?

We don't use those weapons in the first place other than for procs; here's to hoping we don't have any more of those.

kingfury

06-10-2011, 02:31 AM

I do agree that war is better than everyone else.

Why make it more so?
----------
You do realize we're bound for level 99 right? ^^ The efficiency in each weapon will only continue to grow even if nothing was given to WAR for the rest of the ride I'm afraid. This fact can't be helped is my point, even without my suggestion for more access to WS's.

We don't use those weapons in the first place other than for procs; here's to hoping we don't have any more of those.
-------------
Unfortunately, as I mentioned above for lots of WARs, this is a true fact statistically speaking. It's not because a WAR cannot use other weapons effectively for DD'ing that many WARs don't use these other weapons, it's because they don't even try to use them to find out their potentials. I've out damaged a good handful of WARs that are using GA that don't even gear swap with a dagger. This isn't my opinion, it's happened on multiple occasions. It's just lack of testing and knowledge is all that's to blame.

Leonlionheart

06-10-2011, 02:47 AM

kingfury

06-10-2011, 02:58 AM

K let me tell you their potentials in comparison to GA:

none

EDIT: Point is GA is the best in the game for damage output and there's no way around it. Even unlocking other WS for other weapons (Most of which WAR already has the best of (non empyrean) I.E. Vorpal Blade, Rampage, Penta Thrust, Ground Strike, Evisceration, -Guillotine, Full Swing. WAR only really loses out on Hexa Strike and Asuran Fists for damage output WS's)
-------------
>< /stagger Hold on now, the argument on which weapon is the best to DD with has never been the point of this suggestion. I've never said that dagger or any other weapon is "better" than GA for WAR. The discussion at hand is bolstering the variety of options we have while using these other weapons.

Each weapon that a WAR can wield has great DD'ing potential due to WARs job design. ^^ All of the WS's you listed(except Guillotine) can be boosted while being used by WAR like no other job can. That's the potential I speak of.

Leonlionheart

06-10-2011, 03:32 AM

well then why use anything other than GA?

kingfury

06-10-2011, 03:50 AM

well then why use anything other than GA?
----------
>< /stagger again lol

The Freedom of Choice my friend! ^^

• Because we can, and because we have the potential to do it well.
• Because our JA's make other weapons do things no other job can do with them.
• It was designed to be so by Altana(aka the Devs).
• It's fun using multiple things to hit enemies with.
• Last point, but include different looking weapons in with it.^^
It's personal preference you're looking at with that question. If the only weapon you want to use is a GA when DD'ing, you have the choice to do. If you wanted to take out another weapon to DD with just because you caught the feeling(and know how to get the most out of it), well you have the choice of doing so as well.^^

Leonlionheart

06-10-2011, 03:54 AM

----------
>< /stagger again lol

The Freedom of Choice my friend! ^^

• Because we can, and because we have the potential to do it well.
• Because our JA's make other weapons do things no other job can do with them.
• It was designed to be so by Altana(aka the Devs).
• It's fun using multiple things to hit enemies with.
• Last point, but include different looking weapons in with it.^^
It's personal preference you're looking at with that question. If the only weapon you want to use is a GA when DD'ing, you have the choice to do. If you wanted to take out another weapon to DD with just because you caught the feeling(and know how to get the most out of it), well you have the choice of doing so as well.^^

If it's not as good, why do it?

I personally don't like choosing to be worse than I could be.

kingfury

06-10-2011, 04:13 AM

Leonlionheart

06-10-2011, 04:26 AM

I gave the example in a recent post:

"Why would I ride a bike when I have a Car?"
It's not that you're choosing to be "worse" as much as you're choosing another method. If you don't have the right gear, combat skill, weapons, etc , then and only then are you handicapping your output. If you can equip a nice dagger and build a TP/Haste build that rockets you to 100 TP in half the time it takes you to get there with a GA, and then swap in some great WS gear that clears 2-3k+ each time with your dagger WS, you should doing similar if not more damage.

I'm gonna have to post a youtube video man >< lol There are folks that just don't try this stuff.

You trolling?

nothing will be faster than GA getting to 100% TP...

I get 100% in 6 hits... the difference in actual delay in cap haste GA and 1 handed dagger is:

Without haste:
8.43 (506 delay Widowmaker)
3.35 (201 delay Yataghan NQ)
Without STP it takes the same time to get 100%.

With gear haste:
6.33
2.51

With gear and spell haste(including base marches):
3.24
1.29

now we have hasso:
2.4
1.29

still subbing sam TP per hit (No stp gear):
Widowmaker: 15.7
Yataghan NQ: 6.3

With STP gear:
Widowmaker basic 6hit: 18.0 (6 hits)
Yataghan same gear: 7.2 (14 hits)

Time it takes with capped haste to get 100% TP w/o WSing (no retaliation no DA no TA):
Widowmaker: 14.4 seconds
Yagaghan NQ: 18.06

Highest Evisceration I've ever seen: 5.6k
Highest Ukko's Fury I've ever seen: 13.6k

You're not riding a bike, you're crawling.

kingfury

06-10-2011, 04:39 AM

^^ No, no, I don't troll. I know the math. I know how it looks on paper/screen. But you have to see it to believe it, trust me. If I hadn't tried this myself a dozen times up against other WARs just for kicks, I wouldn't dare post it. By the time the WS animation is finished, I'm rounding 60TP or more depending on Double Attack/ Triple Attack / Retaliation procs and so forth. I won't argue with the math and such, so let me instead get together a video of me doing this. Sometimes you just have to see the proof. ^^

Leonlionheart

06-10-2011, 04:44 AM

kingfury

06-10-2011, 05:18 AM

>< I use GA too! I know about that TP gain lol. I'm saying it's possible to do the same with other weapons and still dish out great damage.

Leonlionheart

06-10-2011, 05:26 AM

>< I use GA too! I know about that TP gain lol. I'm saying it's possible to do the same with other weapons and still dish out great damage.

But it will never be as good, so unless they have some great debuffs or stun, or are simply for procs, what's the point?

kingfury

06-10-2011, 05:51 AM

But it will never be as good, so unless they have some great debuffs or stun, or are simply for procs, what's the point?
------------
Variety, Choice, and the fun of mastering multiple weapons. ^^

Can't say "they'll never be as good" since that's a factor that's based on the expertise of the player wielding the weapon and the weapons/gear/JA's/JT's/and such that are being planned for us for future updates.

I understand your stance Leon, and you don't have to worry that I'm trying to say GA isn't the #1 choice for DD'ing on WAR because it really is. There's no argument there. My point, even from the OP is that WAR does truly excel at using these other weapons enough so to be considered worthy contenders as DD'ing choices along side GA.

Leonlionheart

06-10-2011, 06:50 AM

------------
Variety, Choice, and the fun of mastering multiple weapons. ^^

Can't say "they'll never be as good" since that's a factor that's based on the expertise of the player wielding the weapon and the weapons/gear/JA's/JT's/and such that are being planned for us for future updates.

I understand your stance Leon, and you don't have to worry that I'm trying to say GA isn't the #1 choice for DD'ing on WAR because it really is. There's no argument there. My point, even from the OP is that WAR does truly excel at using these other weapons enough so to be considered worthy contenders as DD'ing choices along side GA.

That's interesting, but unless they bring something to the table, or as long as WAR is a DD, there will never be any reason to use something that deals less damage. You're just not getting it...

Arcon

06-10-2011, 03:37 PM

kingfury

06-11-2011, 01:44 AM

Mastering other weapons: play other jobs.

People argue with you because of three reasons:
1. It would only be used to make WAR proc everything
2. Apart from that, it's not needed. None of those WS are even useful for WAR, even if they did use those weapons for whatever reason
3. Your relentless reasoning: "We already have so much, so it only makes sense to let us have more!"

Those are things that won't change, people who dislike these things now will always dislike them, so please stop trying to convince everyone.
----------------
I had use for all of my weapons far before Abyssea ever came along Arcon >< It's the players that never found use for these weapons before Abyssea that believe this post is geared towards Abyssea. Yes triggering would be possible in Abyssea, but that's a side benefit at best from what my suggestion is aiming for.

Again, if a WAR doesn't know how to push the weapon skills they have already on those weapons, I don't expect them to even understand the point of getting more. My definition for effective ws damage (outside of Abyssea) is 1.5k+ damage. I can achieve this kinda damage on all the melee weapons a WAR can wield, so their "effective" for me. Again, I find enjoyment out of playing with different weapons, and pushing the limits of what can be done through the versatility of WAR.

Let me tailor your interpretation of what I'm trying to reason with you about:

"Your relentless reasoning: "We already have so much,(And as the level cap rises towards 99, we're only going to become more adept at what we do through higher combat skills, new JA's, new JT's, and newer/more powerful gear and weapon choices) so it only makes sense to let us have more!"
I'm not reasoning anything that isn't already going to take place in terms of WAR's imminent evolution as we approach 99. I'm simply suggesting what I believe would be a nice addition to WAR's future abilities.

No one can say what's going to change for this game at this point. No one even knew we would be where we are today, doing the great things we can do now. FC and Ukko's, ‹Thank you!› Devs ^^ I'm not too much concerned with folks that have WAR envy as they'll continue to be mad if we get ANYTHING in future updates lol.

Ryozen

06-12-2011, 01:57 PM

You forgot to /stagger in your last post.

Leonlionheart

06-12-2011, 02:49 PM

You can suggest it all you want, but it's a horrid idea.

Not trying to discourage you from making new ideas, but get over this one.

This will be about as useful as footwork.

Arcon

06-12-2011, 04:00 PM

----------------
I had use for all of my weapons far before Abyssea ever came along Arcon >< It's the players that never found use for these weapons before Abyssea that believe this post is geared towards Abyssea. Yes triggering would be possible in Abyssea, but that's a side benefit at best from what my suggestion is aiming for.

It's a side effect from your point of you, but the raison d'etre from everyone else's point of view. There were WS I used other than GA. But most of the good non-axe WS are already available to WAR as it is now, especially considering the new WS: Vorpal Blade, Penta Thrust, Herculean Slash, Spiral Hell, Black Halo, Retribution. The only weapon type missing from that list is Hand-to-Hand (and obviously Katana and Great Katana, which aren't covered by your idea anyway). But you're not asking for any "useful" WS, you're asking for WS that have no merit in using other than to stagger mobs.

Again, if a WAR doesn't know how to push the weapon skills they have already on those weapons, I don't expect them to even understand the point of getting more.

They do know how, but they see no point in it, because they simple aren't as useful as they WS they have. Name one WS a WAR needs to be more efficient, in any conceivable way (not just damage), apart from staggering.

My definition for effective ws damage (outside of Abyssea) is 1.5k+ damage. I can achieve this kinda damage on all the melee weapons a WAR can wield, so their "effective" for me. Again, I find enjoyment out of playing with different weapons, and pushing the limits of what can be done through the versatility of WAR.

And again, the WS you're suggesting we get access to don't fall within any margin of "effective". The only exceptions would be Dragon Kick, Asuran Fists, Black Halo, Guillotine and maybe Spinning Slash. For all of those weapons (except Hand-to-Hand) WAR already has access to good WS. And notice that 4/5 of those are also stagger WS.

Let me tailor your interpretation of what I'm trying to reason with you about:

"Your relentless reasoning: "We already have so much,(And as the level cap rises towards 99, we're only going to become more adept at what we do through higher combat skills, new JA's, new JT's, and newer/more powerful gear and weapon choices) so it only makes sense to let us have more!"
I'm not reasoning anything that isn't already going to take place in terms of WAR's imminent evolution as we approach 99. I'm simply suggesting what I believe would be a nice addition to WAR's future abilities.

To me that just sounded like this:
"We already have so much, and we'll get even more in the next updates, so it only makes sense to let us have more still!"

And I can assure you that's what it sounds like to most people (because that's what you said). You really don't see why people object to that? You say you want diversity, but the game already has diversity. The same argument you bring about "wanting to experience other things than a Great Axe" other people say to you about experiencing other jobs. Other weapon skills are simply available to other jobs. That's like a WHM wanting to be able to cast every white magic spell in the game, because it's just their thing, or a PLD wanting to be able to have every defensive measure in the game, because they're the iconic tanks. Some things are just not meant for certain jobs, despite how it may look like. If you want to experience other weapons, you already have the means to do it. It sounds like you just want it without having to do the work for it (i.e. level the required job).

I'm not too much concerned with folks that have WAR envy as they'll continue to be mad if we get ANYTHING in future updates lol.

Their envy is well-placed imo. WAR was already a very strong DD, arguably the strongest (bar relic SAM), yet SE pushed it a lot further. Balance was one of the aspects of the game that I always appreciated. The fact that a good WAR could out-damage any other average job. And the fact that a DNC could do the same. This is not really possible anymore, even great DNC have a very hard time just keeping up with an average WAR. Sure, they can do other things instead, but same goes for other jobs. That's not how it should be imo.

Ryozen

06-12-2011, 04:06 PM

How do you figure that Relic SAM out-DDs Empyrean WAR?

Arcon

06-12-2011, 04:15 PM

How do you figure that Relic SAM out-DDs Empyrean WAR?

I was talking about how WAR was already an outstanding DD pre-Abyssea (from my experience the best, bar relic SAM), and instead of balancing things out, SE pushed WAR even further ahead (with or without Ukonvasara).

Leonlionheart

06-12-2011, 07:18 PM

Arcon, there's no logical way to tell kingfury off but for him to stop trolling. He's been regurgitating the same reasoning up for the last few pages now.

Someone states that WAR uses GA because it's the best, and using something else would just be less efficient.

Then he says that WAR should try other things.

Then someone says that WAR uses GA because it's the best, not because it's all they have.

But WAR should try other things.

But GA is the best, no way around it.

But WAR should try other things.

...

At this point he's just trolling.

kingfury

06-12-2011, 11:40 PM

@ Leonlionheart:

Uh, no, responding to folks that ask the same questions over and over again isn't trolling. Again, I've already stated that this has never been a question of which weapon is best to DD with (a Great Axe) so there's no need to try and make it sound like my logic is off. Pay attention to my post before you try calling others trolls. Actually READ what I post perhaps, so you don't make a troll out of yourself.

"Variety, Choice, and the fun of mastering multiple weapons. ^^

Can't say "they'll never be as good" since that's a factor that's based on the expertise of the player wielding the weapon and the weapons/gear/JA's/JT's/and such that are being planned for us for future updates.

I understand your stance Leon, and you don't have to worry that I'm trying to say GA isn't the #1 choice for DD'ing on WAR because it really is. There's no argument there. My point, even from the OP is that WAR does truly excel at using these other weapons enough so to be considered worthy contenders as DD'ing choices along side GA."

kingfury

06-13-2011, 12:46 AM

@ Arcon:

This line,
• "But you're not asking for any "useful" WS, you're asking for WS that have no merit in using other than to stagger mobs."

And this statement,
• "They do know how, but they see no point in it, because they simple aren't as useful as they WS they have. Name one WS a WAR needs to be more efficient, in any conceivable way (not just damage), apart from staggering."

are battling each other. If you can't clear 1.5-2k+ damage with Spiral Hell, Evisceration, Ground Strike, Full Swing, Black Halo, and more consistently on WAR right now, then I can understand these statements. Trust me, a VERY high percentage of WARs DO NOT even equip other weapons enough to know how to get the most out of them. Most only just recently skilled them up to be able to hit mobs in Abyssea to trigger effectively! Not knowing that most of these ws's can reach 5k+ dmg once buffed in Abyssea. Half of the folks that are spitting flame at my suggestion don't even know their potential, so it's easier to put something down that you don't understand/don't want to understand. They REALLY DON'T know how Arcon, because if they did they would see the validity in my suggestion which opens the door for more options.

This isn't about "needing" another WS to be more efficient either Arcon. A GA and Axe satisfies our "needs" just fine, since those are our main weapons. The suggestion is trying to make sense of the logic that WAR will continue to be on par combat skill wise as those that use these weapons as their Main job weapon choice. It just makes no sense to me that we have such high combat ratings with these weapons and not the WS's to match.

If Abyssea had never been released, I would still have suggested this to the Devs, so for the last time ABYSSEA TRIGGERING IS NOT WHY I'M PROPOSING THIS >< lol. Hell if you like I'll include that these WS's under Weapon Mastery WILL NOT BE ABLE TO TRIGGER monsters in Abyssea just to prove it for ya (I'll put this on OP shortly). Hopefully that'll kill this portion of the topic for good. ^^

This line and following statements,
• "To me that just sounded like this:
"We already have so much, and we'll get even more in the next updates, so it only makes sense to let us have more still!"

Uhh... correct. Sounds a bit Mojo Jojo'ish when you put it like that (redundant), but yeah, that's pretty much the logic. The good thing about WAR is that I don't have to level another job to be efficient at another weapon since that's apart of our core job design. That's what we do, we're "Masters of all things Melee". Now, you and others are saying my suggestion of trying to bolster that job design is off base? Why? No other job can do what we can do with weapons is my point, so why not reward that? Again, it's just something I believe would make sense with all the high combat skills we have and will have in future updates.

Rather than envy a WAR, I say find ways to be the best at what it is your job is designed for. A lot of folks don't get that there's diversity even amongst job function classes. All melee oriented jobs can technically be called a DD since they cause damage, but that doesn't mean they were meant to do the most damage during battle. A THF is a DD, and pretty good one at that, but does that mean they should envy a WAR because of their design to hit hard? Nah. They have a great roll and they do it well. What about a SAM or a DRG or a DRK? Yes, they're DD's, but that doesn't mean they were designed to be the hardest hitting DD's in the game. By design, I'm talking about JA's, JT's, weapon/gear options and such. On my taru WHM, I have a TotMs Affinity staff with damn near the same amount of MAB gear as a BLM(mixed in with MND), yet I can't even get close to 3-5k nuke damage using Divine magic. It's frustrating, yeah, but that's the design of their job to do those numbers. Does it stop me from trying to bolster my Divine magic damage numbers? Hell no. I'm happy that I can clear 2K+ at times with Holy, and can't wait to see what new things are on the horizon for damage boosting options.

This really doesn't have to be an on going back and forth guys. I've already said my peace with this thread suggestion, in that I just hope that there will continue to be an outlet for having such high combat skill ratings on WAR as we approach lvl 99. If you disagree, that's fine, and I'm not bashing your opinion. It's just a wish from my WAR, that's all.

kingfury

06-13-2011, 01:13 AM

**Edit to the OP**

**EDIT** Certain weapon skills, under certain conditions that are unlocked via this JA that are used for Red and Blue triggering on monsters inside Abyssea will cause them to not trigger for the WAR using this JA only.

Example:
A WAR/SAM uses Weapon Mastery to unlock the dagger weapon skill Cyclone in the attempt to try trigger Red on a NM, yet no Red trigger will be possible for the WAR since this JA is active. If another party member natively has Cyclone available based on their Main or Sub job, they will be able to trigger Red using Cyclone on the NM. The WAR will still be able to receive the hint message from using Cyclone however.

kingfury

06-13-2011, 01:26 AM

You forgot to /stagger in your last post.
-----------
lol /cues joke drumroll ^^

Minsc

06-13-2011, 02:24 AM

Just do us all a favor and admit you want this for procs and procs only. You go on and on about it being because you want to have the choice, but any WAR with a brain would never choose scythe over GA or polearm over GA unless they're trying to proc something. You said something to the effect of, "Why ride a bike if you can drive a car?" By your logic, if there is a BLM and WHM in your PT, you ask for a Tele-Mea, get a chocobo and OP home (even though a Warp II would clearly be faster), just because you have that choice. Better yet, you must walk to Tele-Mea because you have that choice. However, I doubt you do all of that just like I doubt that you want this ability for anything other than procing.

"A THF is a DD, and pretty good one at that, but does that mean they should envy a WAR because of their design to hit hard? Nah. They have a great roll and they do it well. What about a SAM or a DRG or a DRK? Yes, they're DD's, but that doesn't mean they were designed to be the hardest hitting DD's in the game."

Let's not forget, WAR was originally designed to tank. SAM, DRG and DRK were originally designed to be DDs.

You also say, "The good thing about WAR is that I don't have to level another job to be efficient at another weapon since that's apart of our core job design." So by that logic, why should anyone level any other DD job if WAR has it all? Hell, why stop there? Why don't we give WAR a Jump and Cover and Magic and make Mighty Strikes a 1 minute recast and give them a new 2hr called "God Mode" where you essentially get the effects of a brew for 119 minutes? I enjoy playing WAR just as much as anyone, but I also see the sense in at least trying to keep things as balanced as possible. Your idea sucks, friend.

Arcon

06-13-2011, 03:01 AM

This line,
• "But you're not asking for any "useful" WS, you're asking for WS that have no merit in using other than to stagger mobs."

And this statement,
• "They do know how, but they see no point in it, because they simple aren't as useful as they WS they have. Name one WS a WAR needs to be more efficient, in any conceivable way (not just damage), apart from staggering."

are battling each other.

No? I don't see how that's even remotely a contradiction, but instead just reinforcing the same point, that you only want weak new WS, because we already have many strong WS (as you pointed out yourself). If you're looking for a contradiction, here's one:

Can't say "[other weapons will] never be as good"

you don't have to worry that I'm trying to say GA isn't the #1 choice for DD'ing on WAR because it really is. There's no argument there.

Other weapons will never be as good. They might occasionally be useful, they might even still be able to DD competitively (which is what, I'm guessing, you meant), but they will never be as good. And people don't see a reason to settle for second best. People don't even play with a normal axe anymore, because it can't measure up. So why settle for something less than ideal? Do you have that much fun playing with other weapons for the sake of using other weapons? Not gaining anything useful by it? If you do, I don't blame you. But you're the only one I know.

The funny thing is, that you already can play with all other weapons, and you already have great weapon skills for these weapons (which you personally bragged about). So why could you possibly wanna be able to use other weapon skills? Because you just always wanted to use Energy Drain on your WAR?

Trust me, a VERY high percentage of WARs DO NOT even equip other weapons enough to know how to get the most out of them.

I'll tell them how: same way as with every other WS.

Half of the folks that are spitting flame at my suggestion don't even know their potential, so it's easier to put something down that you don't understand/don't want to understand. They REALLY DON'T know how Arcon, because if they did they would see the validity in my suggestion which opens the door for more options.

They do, they just don't agree with you. I know other WS can be "good", but not as good as a great axe. And since they don't have any other interesting properties, I don't see why you would use them. The only reason would be, to experience new things, for the role-play value. And that is precisely why the job system exists. Why some jobs can do things other jobs can't.

Now you argue, that WAR is meant to be a master of all weapons (which is false), and therefore should have access to more weapon skills. WAR, in fact, is "experienced" at many weapons. They are specifically not meant to be master of all. That's the reason why they lack some WS with every weapon except for the axes. Based on the fact that they're experienced at other weapons is precisely the reason why they're so good with them already. But you seem to be hellbent on taking it beyond their outline and making them absolutely proficient with each.

It just makes no sense to me that we have such high combat ratings with these weapons and not the WS's to match.

This is also part of your contradiction. Saying we have so many great WS and can break 5k easily, then say we don't have the weapon skills to match those weapons.

If Abyssea had never been released, I would still have suggested this to the Devs, so for the last time ABYSSEA TRIGGERING IS NOT WHY I'M PROPOSING THIS

It doesn't matter why you suggested it, we just said that's the only reason why people would be using it. If it's not possible to stagger mobs with those, people won't use them at all and the JA will be useless again.

This line and following statements,
• "To me that just sounded like this:
"We already have so much, and we'll get even more in the next updates, so it only makes sense to let us have more still!"

Uhh... correct. Sounds a bit Mojo Jojo'ish when you put it like that (redundant), but yeah, that's pretty much the logic.

And that's why people object. Apart from the fact that it would upset the game balance (in a role-playing way) and that it's not useful (in a gameplay-way), it's the logic with which you defend it. No one agrees with that point of view. Here you say:

Now, you and others are saying my suggestion of trying to bolster that job design is off base? Why? No other job can do what we can do with weapons is my point, so why not reward that?

Why do you wanna reward a job description? WAR can use plenty of great WS already (as you admitted), isn't that the reward? And you think it's not, while other people say it is.

Leonlionheart

06-13-2011, 05:24 AM

Simply put again: People will use whatever deals the most damage in the least amount of time.

This ability will either make that another weapon, or do absolutely nothing.

kingfury

06-13-2011, 06:05 AM

@ Arcon:

When I said your statements were "battling each other", I meant that If they in fact knew how to get the most out of the current weapon skills WAR has access to, they wouldn't say they were "not useful". The new ws's that would open up to WAR like Guillotine, Spinning Slash, Hexa Strike, and more are not "weak" WS's at all. If a WAR got their hands on them they would most definitely be beastly in terms of damage output.

>< I know you know that some weapon skills require more than just STR to push out the most damage. Some take piling on stats that are foreign to WAR like INT, MAB, and MND. Some you don't spam at 100 TP, others have their potential unlocked with a WARs 2hr. Your response to "everyone else" would have them frustrated real quick and tossing down weapons left and right if you're suggesting using the GA WS mentality only. I'm not bragging about the damage I've done on these weapons, I'm trying to prove a point about their potential. 1.5-2k+ is still pretty darn good damage outside Abyssea as far as I'm concerned, so it wouldn't be a waste if you're pulling in those kinds of numbers.

Yes, you're right about me playing with other weapons for my own enjoyment, but what happens when that enjoyment turns into expertise and I can suddenly hold my own with the other DD's in the party? What happens when I'm matching their numbers in most cases? And no, I'm not talking inside Abyssea, since no damage can out due Emp. wpns in there.

I'll never say that I'm not happy with all the great WS's WAR can use currently, because I am. It's the very reason I'm suggesting this JA in the 1st place. There are more powerful options just staring a WAR in the face that other jobs don't use anymore because they can't get the most out of them like a WAR could. All I'm asking for is as we continue to grow, so should our skills and expertise. That's the bottom line. The entire FF game mechanic is based on such a logic. You start off with few skills and spells, and as you grow in experience, you learn more skills and spells. It's sound logic and no different from what I'm suggesting. at lvl 75, a WAR has limited access to lots of WS's across multiple weapons. Level 95+ should allow access to more of those WS's is all I'm saying.

kingfury

06-13-2011, 06:06 AM

Simply put again: People will use whatever deals the most damage in the least amount of time.

This ability will either make that another weapon, or do absolutely nothing.
------------
Correct. There's nothing to argue about that. /

Atomic_Skull

06-13-2011, 06:27 AM

If they did this wouldn't they have to rename Warrior to "Munchkin" at the same time?

Minsc

06-13-2011, 06:47 AM

Yes, you're right about me playing with other weapons for my own enjoyment, but what happens when that enjoyment turns into expertise and I can suddenly hold my own with the other DD's in the party? What happens when I'm matching their numbers in most cases? And no, I'm not talking inside Abyssea, since no damage can out due Emp. wpns in there.

I'll never say that I'm not happy with all the great WS's WAR can use currently, because I am. It's the very reason I'm suggesting this JA in the 1st place. There are more powerful options just staring a WAR in the face that other jobs don't use anymore because they can't get the most out of them like a WAR could. All I'm asking for is as we continue to grow, so should our skills and expertise. That's the bottom line. The entire FF game mechanic is based on such a logic. You start off with few skills and spells, and as you grow in experience, you learn more skills and spells. It's sound logic and no different from what I'm suggesting. at lvl 75, a WAR has limited access to lots of WS's across multiple weapons. Level 95+ should allow access to more of those WS's is all I'm saying.

And once again, by your logic, why should anyone level any other jobs if WAR has it all? Every DD job has a weapon their best at...

WAR = GA
DRG = Polearm
DRK = Scythe
SAM = GK
MNK = H2H
THF = Dagger
etc...

You have such a hard on for WAR that you're pretty much asking...

WAR = ALL

...and you don't care how it will affect other DD jobs.

Either you've done all you can on WAR with the weapons/skills/JAs it has available that you've become bored with it or you want WAR to be able to proc everything except yellow.

kingfury

06-13-2011, 07:47 AM

And once again, by your logic, why should anyone level any other jobs if WAR has it all? Every DD job has a weapon their best at...

WAR = GA
DRG = Polearm
DRK = Scythe
SAM = GK
MNK = H2H
THF = Dagger
etc...
---------
Wait, wait, wait, don't stop there! What about PLD, RDM, and BLU? What happened there? I've posted this example already, but I'll give it to ya again if you missed it.

"plenty of jobs already share the same WS's like PLDs, BLUs, and RDMs. Do you say then that these jobs are encroaching on each others uniqueness because they share damn near every WS's Sword has to offer save Relic, and Mythic WS's (since even the Emp. WS is shared)? Of course not. Each job plays in their own unique way and has no issues because they share the same WS's."
Again, for the umptenth time ^^ None of these jobs would be in anymore danger of losing what makes them unique than they already are based on what WS's WAR has already. The OP ask for all basic WS's, not ALL WS's. Check the OP again in regards to the crappy Abyssea trigger stuff as I've updated that part. Couldn't care less about Abyssea triggering, but more WS's Yes please.

Jobs distinguish themselves by their JA's. You level a job for what they can do and what their designed to do. SE designed most other Melee jobs to be dependent on 2-3 weapon choices to deal good damage on. WAR was designed outside of that mold. They are the most versatile Melees in the game by design. If you want to benefit from that design, level a WAR, if not level another job.

You have such a hard on for WAR that you're pretty much asking...

WAR = ALL

...and you don't care how it will affect other DD jobs.

Either you've done all you can on WAR with the weapons/skills/JAs it has available that you've become bored with it or you want WAR to be able to proc everything except yellow.
--------------
WAR brings a lot of happiness to lots of folks yes, but No, I've never said all.

kingfury

06-13-2011, 08:01 AM

If they did this wouldn't they have to rename Warrior to "Munchkin" at the same time?
---------
Qué? o.^

Minsc

06-13-2011, 08:23 AM

---------

And once again, by your logic, why should anyone level any other jobs if WAR has it all? Every DD job has a weapon their best at...

WAR = GA
DRG = Polearm
DRK = Scythe
SAM = GK
MNK = H2H
THF = Dagger
etc...

You have such a hard on for WAR that you're pretty much asking...

WAR = ALL

...and you don't care how it will affect other DD jobs.

Wait, wait, wait, don't stop there! What about PLD, RDM, and BLU? What happened there? I've posted this example already, but I'll give it to ya again if you missed it.

"plenty of jobs already share the same WS's like PLDs, BLUs, and RDMs. Do you say then that these jobs are encroaching on each others uniqueness because they share damn near every WS's Sword has to offer save Relic, and Mythic WS's (since even the Emp. WS is shared)? Of course not. Each job plays in their own unique way and has no issues because they share the same WS's."

Again, for the umptenth time ^^ None of these jobs would be anymore in danger of losing what makes them unique than they already are based on what WS's WAR has already. The OP ask for all basic WS's, not ALL WS's. Check the OP again in regards to crappy Abyssea trigger stuff as I've updated that part. Couldn't care about Abyssea triggering, but WS's Yes please.

Jobs distinguish themselves by their JA's. You level a job for what they can do and what their designed to do. SE designed most other Melee jobs to be dependent on 2-3 weapon choices to deal good damage on. WAR was designed outside of that mold. They are the most versatile Melees in the game by design. If you want to benefit from that design, level a WAR, if not level another job.

Highlighted the point of my post above that you failed to understand (the part of DD jobs incase you missed it). I'm discussing how it will affect other DD jobs that already don't get a whole lot of action in Abyssea.

Jobs distinguish themselves by their JA's and their JOB SPECIFIC WEAPON SKILLS. You say, "None of these jobs would be anymore in danger of losing what makes them unique". Why bring a DRG to Abyssea for Blue procing if a WAR already has Skewer and Wheeling Thrust? Why bring a DRK if a WAR already has Cross Reaper and Spinning Slash? And so on and so forth...

What you fail to understand is those WSs are part of what makes those jobs unique. SE made it so you need those WSs/Jobs if you want full Blue proc. Give those same WSs to large WS arsenal WAR already has access to and you take away any reason to bring other DD jobs into Abyssea besides exp. If you want to benefit from the WSs designed for specific job, level a DRG, DRK, MNK, SAM, NIN, etc, if not level WAR.

Again, WAR was originally designed to tank. So by your logic, WAR should get more tanking abilities because that is what they were originally designed to do. Just admit you want this for triggering and be done with it. There is no other logical reason for a WAR to have any of those WS other than MAYBE your own personal enjoyment (as odd as that sounds)...

Azagthoth

06-13-2011, 09:37 AM

Leonlionheart

06-13-2011, 10:49 AM

I think we need a JA that gives 45% magic haste and 25% job ability haste. then war will be gud

kingfury

06-13-2011, 11:53 AM

Highlighted the point of my post above that you failed to understand (the part of DD jobs incase you missed it). I'm discussing how it will affect other DD jobs that already don't get a whole lot of action in Abyssea.
-------
No, I heard ya ^^ and it was no mistake that I listed those jobs since each of those jobs (PLD, RDM, and BLU) hold the potential to be just as much a DD at a THF when played in that style. Same can be said for a WHM that sets up for DD'ing. The point still stands, focus on the quote I gave you. What do you say towards these 3 jobs sharing just about all the same WS's save a handful (PLD, and BLU share 12 Sword WS's/ RDM shares 9)? Don't take my word for it. Look at all the quested WS's that WAR got to unlock. Why would SE allow WAR to unlock these WS's that are designed to be wielded by the jobs that specialize in these weapons? I didn't design WAR, they did. Now lets look at those Job specific WS's right fast.

What about these WS's, other than the fact that you have to be on that job to use them, makes them special/definitive for those jobs? For instance, does Hexa strike have an aftermath that bolsters any aspect about being a WHM? The same question for Swift Blade for PLD, or Guillotine for DRK. As it stands, the answer is No. They, much like the quested WS's are just another WS to be used in battle. They definitely don't help to make those jobs unique as they are, since you'll be hard pressed to find those jobs even using them these days.

I'm not for game imbalance at all, since I believe these job specific WS's when used by those jobs SHOULD have such benefits that make them uniquely special for the jobs that use them. In this case, if you allowed WAR to use Hexa Strike, that WAR would not gain the same job specific benefits that a WHM would when using it. The same can be said for the quested WS's. If these types of benefits existed, and I was asking for WAR to receive the same job specific benefits as the jobs that use them get, THEN it would be imbalanced and unfair. Currently, a DRK even struggles to find validity in using Guillotine since they don't get much return from it. This is the part that should be changed before my suggestion is even considered to be honest. Give those Job specific WS's "Job specific Aftermaths" that truly make them special and really contribute to making the jobs that use them unique.

Jobs distinguish themselves by their JA's and their JOB SPECIFIC WEAPON SKILLS. You say, "None of these jobs would be anymore in danger of losing what makes them unique". Why bring a DRG to Abyssea for Blue procing if a WAR already has Skewer and Wheeling Thrust? Why bring a DRK if a WAR already has Cross Reaper and Spinning Slash? And so on and so forth...More Abyssea stuff
---------
Aannndd stop right there. You didn't go back to the OP and read it again like I ask you to since you're still trying to reason in Abyssea triggers with your points. This... suggestion... is NOT... for triggering... in Abyssea. Period.

Again, WAR was originally designed to tank. So by your logic, WAR should get more tanking abilities because that is what they were originally designed to do. Just admit you want this for triggering and be done with it. There is no other logical reason for a WAR to have any of those WS other than MAYBE your own personal enjoyment (as odd as that sounds)...
---------
Actually, the only thing a WAR needs in terms of job specific abilities for tanking is a way to heal themselves natively. No sub job, WS, or gear, or anything else. Just an ability that allows them to get HP all by themselves like MNK has... but a bit cooler. But to answer your question, yes, give WAR more of what makes them WAR. Provokega, Adrenaline Rush (Stone skin-like ability I thought of that Regens HP), Head butt (JA stun + Hate generation), and whatever else makes sense. WARs are both DD's and Tanks, and we can do both really well.

kingfury

06-13-2011, 12:25 PM

Kingfury, if you want to use energy drain or cyclone on warrior why don't you sub Ninja? Then you can shadow tank the Abyssea NMs with your "epic" evasion build since you probably aren't making use of /sam for your x-hit build anyway and you're probably fulltiming Seigan + Third Eye to be "safe". By the way, with proper gear/merits and event/crafting weapons WAR/NIN should be able to do every single red proc at 99.
------------
Screw Abyssea triggers! lol I don't care about triggering. Changed that on the OP. Check it out. Yeah, I know what /NIN offers and I'll pass. ^^ I actually alternate in between my haste set and my evasion set once Seigan is up if I have the window of opportunity to do so. It all happens pretty fast, but it works out fine for me while on /SAM.

You posted one moderately good idea (the gym idea) and since then you've been nothing but arrogant and have argued relentessly against people that have a drastically better understanding of game mechanics than you do. Heck, I would even go as far to say you're insulting the developers with the "visual example" in the original post on this thread and also the original posts in some of your other threads. You shouldn't be posting about game mechanincs and/or coding when you have a very limited understanding of how either work.
------------
Being Arrogant warrants that I belittle other's opinions and bash them for even disagreeing with me in the 1st place. I don't do such things to people that genuinely wish to hold valid, and respectable arguments devoid childish name calling and disrespect. I do NOT tolerate or hold my tongue against those that find enjoyment in Flaming others suggestion just for the fun of it, so if you equate my dealings with the handful of trolls that run around these boards in packs to being arrogant, then I can't help that. Many of them need to be put in their place, and it's a shame the Moderators delete half the thrashings I've giving out since it's well deserved based on their behavior.

Explain yourself when you say I have "limited understanding" of this games mechanics please. I've never claimed to be a programmer or game developer once, and I haven't seen the disclaimer on these boards that require you have to be one or the other in order to suggest changes to the game. I'd opt to say that a very large percent of the posters on these boards are not programmers or game developers either, but I wouldn't think that should stop them from offering up suggestions to the Devs.

Suggesting that I'm insulting the Devs with the cover of this thread would be a bit much to say, yeah. It's just a WAR surrounded by weapons.

I'll use your logic and say why not allow warrior to proc everything in abyssea including yellow since abyssea is broken anyway it doesn't matter. Why not give warrior every single spell proc and have it cost 0 MP for them to cast the spells? Then you can use Atma of the Merciless Matriarch for the fast cast for shadows and spells along with your evasion atmas to gimp your damage even more.
----------
Again, screw Abyssea triggers and such. Check OP.

Sorry for the misunderstandings Azagthoth, but I'm not here to disrespect anyone. My suggestions are to the Devs. If anyone wishes to challenge my opinions, I'm open to that, and we can discuss them respectfully. If people want to Flame, I'm not so open to that. Just because I may believe firmly in what I'm suggesting, that doesn't make me arrogant. These are my opinions, and If someone offers valid reasons against them, I'll either agree or not agree. They have the right to their opinions just like I do.

Thanks for posting /

Didgist

06-13-2011, 05:58 PM

evasion set

many many dots

Atomic_Skull

06-13-2011, 06:09 PM

WAR is already overpowered as it is, they don't need to pull a SAM and keep buffing it until it's the only DD job left in the game.

kingfury

06-13-2011, 06:15 PM

many many dots
------------
/Wonders if it's too early in the morning for referencing Star Wars... nah.

"There is still much for you to learn Padawan"...

In short: it's possible on WAR, it's a great way to control damage when you're short on healing, you can still do great damage and such, you just don't get hit as much. Tell ya about it later.

Didgist

06-13-2011, 07:04 PM

------------
/Wonders if it's too early in the morning for referencing Star Wars... nah.

"There is still much for you to learn Padawan"...

In short: it's possible on WAR, it's a great way to control damage when you're short on healing, you can still do great damage and such, you just don't get hit as much. Tell ya about it later.

PDT set will beat out an evasion set that you shouldn't even be using. It's called math.

Leonlionheart

06-13-2011, 07:12 PM

WAR is already overpowered as it is, they don't need to pull a SAM and keep buffing it until it's the only DD job left in the game.

It's too late.

Didgist

06-13-2011, 07:16 PM

It's too late.

I like watching trains wreck too much. Won't sub 40 ninja yet swears by evasion build, tp's in ziel neck and 27% haste etc and probably still beats out most other DDs

Arcon

06-13-2011, 07:42 PM

PDT set will beat out an evasion set that you shouldn't even be using. It's called math.

Actually, depends on what. You underestimate the Evasion a WAR can get from gear alone, very easy to obtain gear at that (compared to the PDT equivalent). An absolute exceptional PDT set will only mitigate half the damage (and it's hard to get even close to that), on the other hand obtaining a 45% Evasion rate from gear is relatively easy. Whether or not that's useful depends on the mob. A high level mob will still floor your evasion, but if you fight any mob on which you have a > 5% evasion rate (without evasion gear), then you will receive a better damage reduction from an Evasion set. The higher your native evasion, the higher the bonus you receive from an evasion set. It works the same way as Haste and PDT, the more you have, the more you profit from an increase. Only PDT caps at 50%, Evasion caps at 80%. Not to mention the fact, that you can still wear some PDT gear with that much evasion on.

I first tried it after I leveled THF and noticed that WAR could wear pretty much the same set. It was useless on many important things, but useful on a few others. For example, my WAR90/SAM45 had nearly capped evasion on Dynamis mobs (pre-update). I could Seigan solo through Hundred Fists for quite a while, usually enough to kill the MNK. That would have been pretty much impossible with just a PDT set.

If you fight high-level mobs, it will be rather useless. Otherwise, it's quite effective. For TP moves, macro in PDT. If you're /NIN evasion helps with spellcasting (I know, LOL/NIN), PDT always helps with your damage output (because of Retaliation). Know when to use which set to play the most efficient way.

Didgist

06-13-2011, 08:28 PM

Actually, depends on what. You underestimate the Evasion a WAR can get from gear alone, very easy to obtain gear at that (compared to the PDT equivalent). An absolute exceptional PDT set will only mitigate half the damage (and it's hard to get even close to that), on the other hand obtaining a 45% Evasion rate from gear is relatively easy. Whether or not that's useful depends on the mob. A high level mob will still floor your evasion, but if you fight any mob on which you have a > 5% evasion rate (without evasion gear), then you will receive a better damage reduction from an Evasion set. The higher your native evasion, the higher the bonus you receive from an evasion set. It works the same way as Haste and PDT, the more you have, the more you profit from an increase. Only PDT caps at 50%, Evasion caps at 80%. Not to mention the fact, that you can still wear some PDT gear with that much evasion on.

I first tried it after I leveled THF and noticed that WAR could wear pretty much the same set. It was useless on many important things, but useful on a few others. For example, my WAR90/SAM45 had nearly capped evasion on Dynamis mobs (pre-update). I could Seigan solo through Hundred Fists for quite a while, usually enough to kill the MNK. That would have been pretty much impossible with just a PDT set.

If you fight high-level mobs, it will be rather useless. Otherwise, it's quite effective. For TP moves, macro in PDT. If you're /NIN evasion helps with spellcasting (I know, LOL/NIN), PDT always helps with your damage output (because of Retaliation). Know when to use which set to play the most efficient way.

Good point, but if you're gearing WAR to fight robber crab tier mobs you should just level Ninja.

Minsc

06-13-2011, 08:59 PM

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No, I heard ya ^^ and it was no mistake that I listed those jobs since each of those jobs (PLD, RDM, and BLU) hold the potential to be just as much a DD at a THF when played in that style. Same can be said for a WHM that sets up for DD'ing. The point still stands, focus on the quote I gave you. What do you say towards these 3 jobs sharing just about all the same WS's save a handful (PLD, and BLU share 12 Sword WS's/ RDM shares 9)? Don't take my word for it. Look at all the quested WS's that WAR got to unlock. Why would SE allow WAR to unlock these WS's that are designed to be wielded by the jobs that specialize in these weapons? I didn't design WAR, they did. Now lets look at those Job specific WS's right fast.

You go on talking about what jobs were "originally designed for", then you bring PLD, RDM and BLU into a discussion about how your ability will affect other DD jobs. PLD and RDM were not specifically designed to DD. BLU was design to DD through magic. Staying on topic, we're talking about DDs, not the potential for non-DD jobs to be DDs, so those examples should be thrown out.

What about these WS's, other than the fact that you have to be on that job to use them, makes them special/definitive for those jobs? For instance, does Hexa strike have an aftermath that bolsters any aspect about being a WHM? The same question for Swift Blade for PLD, or Guillotine for DRK. As it stands, the answer is No. They, much like the quested WS's are just another WS to be used in battle. They definitely don't help to make those jobs unique as they are, since you'll be hard pressed to find those jobs even using them these days.

The fact that you have to be on that job to use them makes them special/definitive for those jobs.

I'm not for game imbalance at all, since I believe these job specific WS's when used by those jobs SHOULD have such benefits that make them uniquely special for the jobs that use them. In this case, if you allowed WAR to use Hexa Strike, that WAR would not gain the same job specific benefits that a WHM would when using it. The same can be said for the quested WS's. If these types of benefits existed, and I was asking for WAR to receive the same job specific benefits as the jobs that use them get, THEN it would be imbalanced and unfair. Currently, a DRK even struggles to find validity in using Guillotine since they don't get much return from it. This is the part that should be changed before my suggestion is even considered to be honest. Give those Job specific WS's "Job specific Aftermaths" that truly make them special and really contribute to making the jobs that use them unique.

Exactly my point. I know you don't want to talk about Abyssea, but the fact is Abyssea is the content people are mostly doing right now. You start giving what little bit a job like DRK has to WAR and why would anyone ever invite a DRK? You give the only reason to invite a DRG, DRK, PLD, etc... to WAR, those jobs will suffer. Similar to years ago when ToAU bird PTs still existed. Everyone wanted RDM, SAM, WAR, BRD and DRG. You were lucky if you got an invite on MNK, NIN, PLD, THF or any other job. People will flock to the most popular content, so stop trying to exclude Abyssea from your rant.

Aannndd stop right there. You didn't go back to the OP and read it again like I ask you to since you're still trying to reason in Abyssea triggers with your points. This... suggestion... is NOT... for triggering... in Abyssea. Period.

Aannndd stop right there. You didn't go back to several posts where several others point out regardless of your intent, this... is... what... people... would... use... this... ability... for. Maybe not you, cause you obviously will get a bigger hard on being able to use Wheeling Thrust on WAR (or so you claim), but every other WAR with half a brain would. Fact. Period.

Actually, the only thing a WAR needs in terms of job specific abilities for tanking is a way to heal themselves natively. No sub job, WS, or gear, or anything else. Just an ability that allows them to get HP all by themselves like MNK has... but a bit cooler. But to answer your question, yes, give WAR more of what makes them WAR. Provokega, Adrenaline Rush (Stone skin-like ability I thought of that Regens HP), Head butt (JA stun + Hate generation), and whatever else makes sense. WARs are both DD's and Tanks, and we can do both really well.

Hell, why stop there? Why don't we give WAR a Jump and Cover and Magic and make Mighty Strikes a 1 minute recast and give them a new 2hr called "God Mode" where you essentially get the effects of a brew for 119 minutes?

So... you just want WAR to be able to solo everything and anything inside and outside of Abyssea... ^^ lol >< /stagger...

...and you don't care how it will affect other DD jobs.

Linh

06-13-2011, 09:43 PM

Great suggestion KF, though I think it should only be a 1 minute duration.

Didgist

06-13-2011, 10:24 PM

KF please explain how this would have any other use besides hitting weak points. The only A tier weapons WAR has are Great Axe and Axe.

"The amount of attack and accuracy you gain by equipping a weapon using a particular skill is directly proportional to the Combat Skill level."

Polearms only critical mod is Vorpal which you have and Drakesbane which your OP says you wouldn't have.
Calad DRKs would destroy you with any Great Sword WAR can wear using spinning slash.
Scythe Raging Rush trashes Guillotine.
Great Katana and Katana wouldn't even apply.
Hexa strike WARs really?
Staff you already have everything.
Archery and Marksmanship could take advantage of a gimp tier 1/2 aggressive aim build.
Sword would get Swift Blade which is useless unless it's a weak point.
Dagger would get Dancing Edge and Shark Bite, which are only used for weak points.

It's impossible to say this would be any good unless it was exclusively used for weak points.

Linh

06-13-2011, 11:02 PM

KF please explain how this would have any other use besides hitting weak points. The only A tier weapons WAR has are Great Axe and Axe.

Cuz it's fun, not everything has to always be about "how does this make my damage and heals bettah?!".

And it's better immersion than NPCs who spend their days off at their shop telling players that it's their day off.

Arcon

06-13-2011, 11:14 PM

Cuz it's fun, not everything has to always be about "how does this make my damage and heals bettah?!".

And it's better immersion than NPCs who spend their days off at their shop telling players that it's their day off.

But that's the thing. If you wanna use other WS, you should level other jobs. That's one of the things that other jobs have to offer. WAR already has a massive arsenal of WS, because they're meant to be experienced with those weapons. But SE precisely decided it shouldn't be able to use all WS, because that's imbalanced. You call it immersive, but I don't, imo it's kinda the opposite, because it doesn't fit the role-play model that one class is supposed to have everything. That's one of the main reasons I'm against it (other than it being useful and abused for staggers).

hiko

06-14-2011, 12:35 AM

plenty of jobs already share the same WS's like PLDs, BLUs, and RDMs. Do you say then that these jobs are encroaching on each others uniqueness because they share damn near every WS's Sword has to offer save Relic, and Mythic WS's (since even the Emp. WS is shared)? Of course not. Each job plays in their own unique way and has no issues because they share the same WS's

dont post untrue fact when you know they are not true (you spoke about swift on a later post)

and very similar idea why don't we give SCH every single spell when under arts?

Minsc

06-16-2011, 05:00 AM

Ok, so you keep mentioning going back over your original edited post, so let's take a look at that...

Wall of text and then this...

**EDIT** Certain weapon skills, under certain conditions that are unlocked via this JA that are used for Red and Blue triggering on monsters inside Abyssea will cause them to not trigger for the WAR using this JA only.

Example:
A WAR/SAM uses Weapon Mastery to unlock the dagger weapon skill Cyclone in the attempt to try trigger Red on a NM, yet no Red trigger will be possible for the WAR since this JA is active. If another party member natively has Cyclone available based on their Main or Sub job, they will be able to trigger Red using Cyclone on the NM. The WAR will still be able to receive the hint message from using Cyclone however.

Even if the Dev's considered this, I can see them saying that this would require too many resources (or something to that effect) to make the suggested WSs not proc on just WAR inside of Abyssea under this effect. So in other words, just a waste of time.

More wall of text, then this...

In closing, again I'll say, WARs will be able to wield more weapons than ANY job in the game, if not better than any job by lvl 99 so it would just make sense to give WAR a reward for all those long hours of skilling up lol. Please, please consider this Job ability SE. Thank you

Now this part just made my head hurt... So you're saying you want a WAR to wield a Polearm better than a DRG? You want a WAR to wield a Scythe better than a DRK? H2H better than a MNK? Those jobs are known for the weapons they wield. It honestly boggles my mind how you think that WAR should be the be all end all best DD any more than it already is.

To quote a very wise man...

"Of all the idiots, in all the idiot villages, in all the idiot worlds, you stand alone, my friend." (Michael Scott)