Add icons to macro buttons?

[Rhianu]

Hey, I was just wondering how feasible it would be to implement an option to have icons on macro buttons, like we have in FFXIV. Icons really work a lot better than just plain text, especially considering the text is limited to like only 4 or 5 characters (maybe not a problem in Japanese, but it's a huge limitation in English). I think if we could add icons to the macro buttons, it would be much better.

[rog]

That would be rather overpowered, imo.

[rog]

Also japanese clients can only use romaji macro names btw.

But seriously there is plenty of room to identify macros. You do not need full names of spells/abilities. My macros for rdm look like:

f10 | b | g| c10 | c101 | mdt | pdt | s | p | h
u10 | u1 | x |b11 | f11 | b10 | p | a | s | ss

and that works just fine for me~

[Rhianu]

and that works just fine for me~
I'm not saying the current method doesn't work, I'm just saying there's another method that works better, and that's the way FFXIV does it: with icons.

Sure, there are a lot of problems with FFXIV's UI overall, but there are also several things in which FFXIV's UI is an improvement over FFXI's, and this is one of those things.

Just looking at your macro list, I can't tell what any of them are. I'm sure they make sense to you, but they're not immediately intuitive like icons would be.

[rog]

You can't tell what any of them are? Really? I mean, i guess i can understand not knowing i use f for refresh, but the rest are pretty obvious :(

[Rhianu]

They're obvious to you because you're the one who made them and you use them all the time. You can't assume that everyone else in the game thinks the exact same way you do, because they don't.

But regardless, icons would still far more intuitive and much easier to use than the obviously limiting text abbreviations that are necessary under the current system.

[Greatguardian]

How often do you use other people's macros?

Okay then.

Really, when you're naming them yourself, placing them yourself, and making the content yourself, you can't really get more "intuitive" in their use. Note: Not all macros are for a single ability/spell. Some people have macros with multiple spells, others have macros with no spells and just gear swaps. A macro can be anything, it can have multiple functions, and it can have no function. There is no simple way to make a single thumbnail image that could represent a macro properly.

[Korpg]

How often do you use other people's macros?


Exactly.

My macros are numbered 1-10, then 11-20.

I know what is what, because I made them myself.

If anyone were to play my game, with my macro set, they wouldn't have a clue as to what to do.

[Krisan]

I just name my macro after the spell\ability in question (or however much of the word fits into the namespace) and just keep everything listed in a logical order within the macro pages.. So multiple cure spells for example are on a single page, lined up 1-6, and etc.. Plus I just memorize (muscle memory is important) what to press to get to where in my macro book. That way I know where everything is and can select it at a glance with my controller.

[Rhianu]

Well whatever, the point is that when SE allowed players to put icons on Macro buttons in FFXIV, it was a big improvement over FFXI's Macros, and I think SE should seriously consider adding that same functionality to FFXI.

[Raxiaz]

PS2 limitations.

/thread

[Rhianu]

Go away villa.

[Kaiichi]

/signed I like the idea. :)

[Raxiaz]

Go away villa.

Keep forum fads to their respective forums, Takushii.

[svengalis]

This might be asking for too much. I think they would have to do some major programming for this but hey what do I know.

[Coldbrand]

I'd love for the macros to be more than just boring blue buttons.

[Camate]

Currently the development team is hard at work looking into adjustments for mouse and keyboard controls for the Windows version UI. This is a higher priority for them at the moment, but if they have an opportunity in the future to revamp the entire GUI, they will look into it at that time.

[Yinnyth]

The one thing I've always wanted for my macros is the ability to change the color of individual buttons, pallettes, and sets of macros. All of my jobs have lines and lines of macros, and if I could give each line a distinctive color, I'd be much less likely to accidentally start singing fire carol when I wanted to sing horde lullaby. I don't think icons would help me out as much as customizable colors would, though to be fair it's been like half a year since I checked out ff14, so I forget how immediately recognizable the icon system is.

[Soundwave]

Thanks Camate

[Juilan]

Currently the development team is hard at work looking into adjustments for mouse and keyboard controls for the Windows version UI. This is a higher priority for them at the moment, but if they have an opportunity in the future to revamp the entire GUI, they will look into it at that time.
are they making fishing less like nailing a nail into your hand?

[rog]

Currently the development team is hard at work looking into adjustments for mouse and keyboard controls for the Windows version UI. This is a higher priority for them at the moment, but if they have an opportunity in the future to revamp the entire GUI, they will look into it at that time.
lol...

1234567890

[Raksha]

Currently the development team is hard at work looking into adjustments for mouse and keyboard controls for the Windows version UI. This is a higher priority for them at the moment, but if they have an opportunity in the future to revamp the entire GUI, they will look into it at that time.


I play w/ controller >_< without bad luck i'd have no luck.

[Rhianu]

Currently the development team is hard at work looking into adjustments for mouse and keyboard controls for the Windows version UI. This is a higher priority for them at the moment, but if they have an opportunity in the future to revamp the entire GUI, they will look into it at that time.
Really? Wow, it's been so long, I didn't think the dev team was ever going to make any improvements to the controls. That's awesome news. :D

[Ravenmore]

They going to make the mouse useful?

[Kaych]

Currently the development team is hard at work looking into adjustments for mouse and keyboard controls for the Windows version UI. This is a higher priority for them at the moment, but if they have an opportunity in the future to revamp the entire GUI, they will look into it at that time.

OMG, this is so amazing!!!

The mouse controll has always been crap imo. Since I started, over 6 years ago I thought it was always a struggle to use. After I played WoW and got the taste of a massivly better way to play with a mouse, I figured that the FFXI-way-to-play-with-a-mouse was broken. (And no, I am not a WoW fan, just to make that clear^_-)

So I am very pleased to hear this :D

But, for the love of god, dont change anything on the keyboardXD I love how that is^_-

A suggestion from my part is that you can have better optional setups, both for keyboard and mouse:) (The mouse should react much faster also imo)



Edit: Lol, I just realized "Windows version UI".. I thought this was a general fix --_--

[Kraggy]

are they making fishing less like nailing a nail into your hand?
Maybe wrong, but I thought I read a post here some time back that said they had no plans to change it, after all these years they still think it works as an anti-bot mechanic. /rolleyes

[Runespider]

Currently the development team is hard at work looking into adjustments for mouse and keyboard controls for the Windows version UI.

This makes me really worried. I like the current system and I miss it when I play other MMO's, please don't ruin the controls..

[Khary]

What use does the mouse have in this game? I played WoW aswell and found it obnoxious having to take my hand off the keyboard to click the dead body and obtain my loot or trying to click on character to heal them etc. Someone give me some insight here,
thx

[rog]

What use does the mouse have in this game? I played WoW aswell and found it obnoxious having to take my hand off the keyboard to click the dead body and obtain my loot or trying to click on character to heal them etc. Someone give me some insight here,
thx
Mouse does nothing but get in the way in ffxi.

[Runespider]

Seriously this is kind of a bombshell, will there be some consultation before they add a new control system?

I don't want the controls to be fugged up, I hate having to use the mouse on other MMO's and im way too used to the controls XI uses now.

[Kaych]

Agreed. I still want to be able to play with ONLY the keyboard. Its more freedom imo.

But a option to a good mouse-setup option could be interesting^^ I like the "fastness" in WoW when it comes to the mouse, but after a while, it can get tiering to sit at the desk/table all the time. So, one of the (many) reasons I quit playing that game, is cos you are linked to the desk. You cant just lean back with the keyboard on the sofa and just "chill-play"^_-

[Zyeriis]

Currently the development team is hard at work looking into adjustments for mouse and keyboard controls for the Windows version UI. This is a higher priority for them at the moment, but if they have an opportunity in the future to revamp the entire GUI, they will look into it at that time.

{No Thanks.}
If you have issues with the current keyboard controls, I really do not know what to tell you, other than that I can play with one hand. Unless you have discovered some magical way to make me able to play without either hand, don't screw it up. The controls are perfect as far as I'm concerned.

[Greatguardian]

Because it's obvious that any overhauls they make to the control scheme that has been in place for the past decade will not be optional at all.

[rog]

Because it's obvious that any overhauls they make to the control scheme that has been in place for the past decade will not be optional at all.This is SE.

[Raxiaz]

Because they certainly can't add new options under "Mouse Control" and "Keyboard Type" under the Config menu.

[rog]

Because they certainly can't add new options under "Mouse Control" and "Keyboard Type" under the Config menu.
This is SE.

[DerianX]

I dunno about icons, but it would be nice if you could have more than 4-5 visible characters for a macro title. Changing to a smaller or narrower font, and/or multi-line text would be nice. Kinda annoying having to figure out an abbreviated naming system for a dozen different cure spells or names for the -na spells along with the debuff spells themselves.

Right now my macro names look kinda like:
| Cur1 | Cur2 | Cur3 | Cur4 | Cur5 | Cur6 | Cga1 | Cga2 | Cga3 | Cga4 |
| Pois | Blind | Para | Slow | Silen | nPoi | nBln | nPar | Erase | nSil |
| Stn1 | Stn2 | Stn3 | Stn4 | Stn5 | gSt1 | gSt2 | gSt3 |
| Wtr1 | Wtr2 | ... etc etc etc.

I also like the color idea. Would be cool to have different colors for different macro buttons. Like one color for JAs, another for WS's, another for spells, etc.

If anything though, I'd like more text space in the macro buttons.

[rog]

Kinda annoying having to figure out an abbreviated naming system for a dozen different cure spells or names for the -na spells along with the debuff spells themselves.Not really. There are plenty of different ways. Cures can use cur, as you used, or even just c, and the number (and you use for curagas).

In fact, even if they did give us more space, i still would not change my macros. Which can you recognize faster? cg5, or curaga5? g, or gravity? The shorter and simpler it is, the faster it can be read.

I joked about my macros on page one, because they were so ambigious. I have a grouping of three macros for rdm: p | p | s. Your first thought is probably going to be why would i have 2 macros with the same name right next to each other, and how do i tell them apart? Easy. Slow and paralyze are right next to each other, while phalanx is not right next to slow. And how do i diffierentiate s2 (slow2) from stone2? Easy. I do not have a macro for stone 2. Sleep (s) and sleep 2 (s2) can be differentiated from slow/slow2 (s/s2) because sleep is always on control, and slow always on alt.

There are plenty of ways to differentiate your macros with 4 letters/numbers. In all cases other than -gas, and -nas (both of which use the first letter, and either ga or na, such as sna for silena), i only use 1 letter and one number if applicable, and i am never confused by mine. It is just a label, it does not need the full name of the spell/ability to function well.

That being said, being able to choose a color would be pretty awesome for identifying a macro even faster, without needing to even look at the label.

[Zyeriis]

Because it's obvious that any overhauls they make to the control scheme that has been in place for the past decade will not be optional at all.


Currently the development team is hard at work looking into adjustments for mouse and keyboard controls for the Windows version UI. This is a higher priority for them at the moment, but if they have an opportunity in the future to revamp the entire GUI, they will look into it at that time.
Not alternative control schemes.

[Raxiaz]

I must admit that I'm in agreement with Rog on the issue. We do not need icons for macros. I can recognize mine pretty simply and they're not even as ambiguous as p | p | s. I don't even have Phalanx on the same macro set as Paralyze and Slow. I utilize each book for one job, so that gives me more than enough room to create and remember my own macros.

[Rhianu]

What use does the mouse have in this game? I played WoW aswell and found it obnoxious having to take my hand off the keyboard to click the dead body and obtain my loot or trying to click on character to heal them etc. Someone give me some insight here,
thx
That's why in WoW you always leave one hand on the mouse at all times. In fact, most PC games have you keeping one hand on the keyboard and one hand on the mouse. FFXI is really an oddity in that department.


Mouse does nothing but get in the way in ffxi.
That is true, but only because FFXI's mouse controls are so bad. If FFXI's mouse controls were better, I don't think they would get in the way at all.

[Rhianu]

Kinda annoying having to figure out an abbreviated naming system for a dozen different cure spells or names for the -na spells along with the debuff spells themselves.

Not really. There are plenty of different ways. Cures can use cur, as you used, or even just c, and the number (and you use for curagas).

In fact, even if they did give us more space, i still would not change my macros. Which can you recognize faster? cg5, or curaga5? g, or gravity? The shorter and simpler it is, the faster it can be read.
No, DerianX is right. It is kind of annoying. Also, your argument that "G" is more easily recognizable than "Gravity" is not only absurd, it's flat out wrong. The human brain is programed to read an entire word at once, not letter by letter, so shorter abbreviations are NOT necessarily quicker or easier to read than full words. In fact, in most cases the exact opposite is true. Full, complete words are usually quicker and easier to read because there's less guess work involved, and you don't have to bother with remembering what each abbreviation is supposed to stand for.


I have a grouping of three macros for rdm: p | p | s. Your first thought is probably going to be why would i have 2 macros with the same name right next to each other, and how do i tell them apart? Easy. Slow and paralyze are right next to each other, while phalanx is not right next to slow.
Honestly, that's a terrible way of labeling your macros, and I think I would go crazy if I had to use such horribly ambiguous names as that.


And how do i diffierentiate s2 (slow2) from stone2? Easy. I do not have a macro for stone 2.
Oh yeah, that's a real great solution. Just don't make macros for abilities that you can't name clearly. -_-

Please, stop being dense. A good system would make it easy to create clear, distinguishable macros for every ability in the entire game. If you have to start limiting which abilities you can and can't put into macros due to the limitations of the naming conventions, then that proves there's a problem with the system.


Sleep (s) and sleep 2 (s2) can be differentiated from slow/slow2 (s/s2) because sleep is always on control, and slow always on alt.
Yes, but that's the difference between knowledge in the world and knowledge in your head. There is nothing in the interface that inherently distinguishes between Ctrl and Alt, and so when you use such ambiguous labels (and using the same label for multiple abilities, no less!), you have to just remember which is which on your own. A good interface should make it so you don't have to remember things like that, because a good interface does not make things ambiguous or unclear. A good interface will put all the necessary information out there in the world, so you don't have to worry about keeping it all straight in your head.


I must admit that I'm in agreement with Rog on the issue. We do not need icons for macros. I can recognize mine pretty simply and they're not even as ambiguous as p | p | s. I don't even have Phalanx on the same macro set as Paralyze and Slow. I utilize each book for one job, so that gives me more than enough room to create and remember my own macros.
If you had spent any decent amount of time playing any other MMO besides FFXI, you would understand the vast superiority of icons over plain old text, especially when that text is limited to only 4 or 5 letters. :P

Although, I just had this thought, if the macro buttons were made bigger and wider, maybe rectangular instead of square, then perhaps there would be more room for more letters. Icons would still be better, I think, but making room for more letters on the buttons could certainly be an improvement over the current system as well.

Perhaps if there was also some way to display a recast timer directly on the macro button itself, that would also be a significant improvement.

Color selection would be fine too, I guess.

[rog]

The human brain is programed to read an entire word at once, not letter by letter,And which do you recognize faster? A, or Pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis?

[Raksha]

Yes, but that's the difference between knowledge in the world and knowledge in your head. There is nothing in the interface that inherently distinguishes between Ctrl and Alt

Actually I think it says 'Alt X' and 'Ctrl X' on each of the buttons on the macro bar.

[Atomic_Skull]

The human brain is programed to read an entire word at once, not letter by letter


the "Look and Say" method of teaching reading has been thoroughly discredited.

[Runespider]

The letters/words/icons things is almost a non issue, after a few days playing the job with your macros you pretty much remember where most things are anyway. The single letter or 2-3 are just memory refreshers, icons or full words are only needed for other people to use your char. Pointless.


That is true, but only because FFXI's mouse controls are so bad. If FFXI's mouse controls were better, I don't think they would get in the way at all.

I hate having to use the mouse, even on games with a nice mouse control system like wow. I far prefer the XI control system where everything is done via the kb.

Also keep in mind Squares latest work on XIV with the control system, lets not mess too much with XI controls please.

[Raxiaz]

Rhianu, I'm sorry but you're wrong. I do NOT want to memorize over 1000 different icons for numerous different abilities, spells, traits, whatever you want.

Icons in FFXI for macros: NO, PLEASE NO. I like my system enough as is. I don't name everything one letter. Aquaveil is AQU and Stoneskin is SS. Blink is BLK and Phalanx is PHLX. I don't put my enfeebles with my buffs, I separate my macro sets in each book and set them up accordingly. Because of this, I KNOW my macros, I know how to maneuver through them, and the usual placing of them is how I remember what they are.

I do not need icons to slow me down, whatsoever. Icons is a horrible idea when a perfectly fine system is in place, granted I would love to have more space and flexibility for everything macro-related. Icons comes nowhere near "space" and "flexibility" for macros - so please, no, do NOT waste time making icons for this game.

That's one of the numerous UI adjustments that I thoroughly disagree with you on, Rhianu. I don't care how many classes of UI-design you've taken. You're wrong about this one, bud.

[Kaych]

Gawd how pissed I will be if they change the keyboard to something like in FFXIV --_--
They better keep it as it is, or have the option to >_>

[Rhianu]

And which do you recognize faster? A, or Pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis?
Neither one, actually, because the letter "A" all by itself is too short to mean anything out of context, and "Pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis" is a word I've never heard before in my entire life.

This game doesn't have any abilities called "Pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis," or any other words even near that length, so it's not a realistic example, sorry.

A good example is something like this:
Which is easier to recognize and understand quickly? The letter "A" or or the word "Aspir"?

The answer, clearly, is "Aspir." Sure, you could memorize that "A" stands for "Aspir" in a particular context, but that doesn't change the fact that the full word is quicker and easier to recognize. The human brain is programed to read word-by-word, not letter-by-letter.

Except in extremely rare cases (such as words that are 45 letters long), full words generally do not take longer to read than single letters, so therefore you do not save any reading time whatsoever by using single-letter abbreviations. Single letters may take less time to type, but not less time to read.


the "Look and Say" method of teaching reading has been thoroughly discredited.
I'm not sure what you're talking about. I never mentioned any so called "Look and Say" method of teaching, and I don't see how that has anything to do with the discussion at hand.


I hate having to use the mouse, even on games with a nice mouse control system like wow. I far prefer the XI control system where everything is done via the kb.

Also keep in mind Squares latest work on XIV with the control system, lets not mess too much with XI controls please.
Not sure what you have against the mouse. The mouse is a wonderful tool and provides precision accuracy that simply isn't possible with a controller or keyboard. I think the only reason you say you don't like it is because you've simply become accustomed to working without it.

And the mouse controls are just as clumsy in FFXIV as they are in FFXI, so that's not really a good example if you're talking about mouse controls.


Rhianu, I'm sorry but you're wrong. I do NOT want to memorize over 1000 different icons for numerous different abilities, spells, traits, whatever you want.
Have you ever played any other MMO besides FFXI? Learning icons is much easier than memorizing often abstract 4 letter abbreviations. FFXIV's action bar is a huge improvement over FFXI's macro pallet.

Besides, you won't have to remember a thousand icons. There aren't that many abilities in the entire game. In fact, I don't think any game has that many abilities. Seriously, you sound like you've never touched any game that uses icons in your life. Sure, the macro system works, but there are other systems out there in other games that work better. You need to play more MMOs, man. Get more experience.

[RabidSquirrel]

What use does the mouse have in this game? I played WoW aswell and found it obnoxious having to take my hand off the keyboard to click the dead body and obtain my loot or trying to click on character to heal them etc. Someone give me some insight here,
thx

This makes a lot more sense. I've always wondered why a lot of FFXI players using keyboard controls didn't like WoW's controls. Yeah, you're not suppose to take your hand off the mouse. You know, like every other PC game out there. Ever since id Software discovered the wonders of controlling the camera via mouse instead of keyboard, it has become a PC gaming staple.

Also peeps: Just because anyone can learn any kind of control scheme if given enough time, it doesn't mean it's an intuitive control scheme.

[Raksha]

If it were optional, and user definiable I wouldn't have a problem with it. But we all know that's not how they would implement it.


The mouse is a wonderful tool and provides precision accuracy that simply isn't possible with a controller or keyboard.

Precision and accuracy are two different concepts. Not that i'm disagreeing or anything.

[Rhianu]

Also peeps: Just because anyone can learn any kind of control scheme if given enough time, it doesn't mean it's an intuitive control scheme.
Thank you! I've been trying to tell people that for ages, but no one ever seems to understand.


If it were optional, and user definiable I wouldn't have a problem with it. But we all know that's not how they would implement it.
Why not? Have you played FFXIV? The icons for user-created macros are optional and user-definable there, so I see no reason why it wouldn't work in a similar manner if implemented into FFXI. Seriously, have a little more faith in SE. I know a lot of their decisions make them seem incompetent sometimes, but they're really not as bad as you think.


Precision and accuracy are two different concepts. Not that i'm disagreeing or anything.
Er.... it kind of depends on the context. I suppose they could mean different things in certain contexts, but I was kinda using them to mean the same thing. Though on the other hand, I'm having difficulty imagining a scenario where the two words wouldn't be synonymous. Perhaps you could provide a little more insight into what you mean?

[Zyeriis]

Also peeps: Just because anyone can learn any kind of control scheme if given enough time, it doesn't mean it's an intuitive control scheme.
This doesn't exclude the mouse last time I checked. Just because it takes some people longer than others to learn a control scheme doesn't mean it's not an intuitive control scheme.

[Raksha]

Why not? Have you played FFXIV?


No



The icons for user-created macros are optional and user-definable there, so I see no reason why it wouldn't work in a similar manner if implemented into FFXI. Seriously, have a little more faith in SE. I know a lot of their decisions make them seem incompetent sometimes, but they're really not as bad as you think.

Well considering they can only go up in my opinion of them, perhaps you are right.



Er.... it kind of depends on the context. I suppose they could mean different things in certain contexts, but I was kinda using them to mean the same thing. Though on the other hand, I'm having difficulty imagining a scenario where the two words wouldn't be synonymous. Perhaps you could provide a little more insight into what you mean?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accuracy_and_precision

Accuracy refers to correctness, whereas precision refers to repeatability. For example if you repeat an experiment and get pretty close to the same number every time, you'd say that your numbers are precise. If you do an experiment and your numbers match the predicted value to lots of decimal places then your numbers would be considered accurate.

(at least I'm pretty sure that's what they mean)

[Rhianu]

Just because it takes some people longer than others to learn a control scheme doesn't mean it's not an intuitive control scheme.

Depends how many people have trouble. If it's a significant number of people, or people who are normally computer-literate, then that's a pretty good indicator you've got a problem.

But even if there are just a few people having trouble, that still means the developers have room for improvement.

[Ilisidi]

Apparently somebody spend a lot of thought on the keyboard controls of FFXI. How to make the buttons reachable, how to place the hands on the board, which commands needed to be redudant, how to allow for doing multiple things at the same time. After seeing this Ferrari of controls, I was shocked when I was presented with FFXIV new square wheel. The controls where clunky, things I could previously do with two hands I'd now need three two and one hand on the keyboard other on the mouse didn't work either.

If the new payment weren't looking like forcing me out of the game, I'd definitely complain more about any adjustments to superb controls of FFXI.

[Leonlionheart]

I really like this idea, but honestly there's no need for it.

I don't even read my macros, I just know where they are...

It's muscle memory by now

[Zumi]

Any chance of letting players make their own UI's through addons like they have in WoW?

Solves the problem of devs having to do it.