Tanking Strategies

[Cdryik]

Hey all,

I'd like to talk about the power of the shadow's, actually rare are thoses that tank without shadows, because, taking no damage is better than taking damage, for sure !

But my point here is, everyone one tanking or back up tank sub /nin.

I think, Final Fantasy team dev's should think about raising the level of utsusemi: Ni to level 50 and give acces to Yonin & Innin as sub job (perhaps), and raise the cap of Physical / Magical damage taken to 70~80% by giving more of equipment with thoses stats for paladin monk (and warrior) or giving them some job trait that cut down damage taken.
Or giving them more tools that'll suit with their job to mitigate damage.

By exemple, for monk:

Each hit directed at you give you a low chance to grant you one mark (show as a buff like the step from dancer), you can store over 5 mark on you. You can then choose to spend thoses point into abilites that will help you to mitigate damage taken.

Exemple of Ability:
- Revigorate : Use 5 mark to grant you powerfull regen (5% base HP / tick), reducing damage taken by 10% for 15 secondes duration.

And some others thing like that ~ using more or less mark depending on the difficulties from combat.


But doesn't it give more power of tanking from nin?
Nin is based on reactivity, that's his rôle to play with timer.
Thats why they shouldn't get access to the level cap increase from physical/magical damage but get more evasion tools or Damage tools, by giving them the :Ni version of what they are missing (jubaku, yurin, aisha, etc...), giving them also the abilities to get mark from evading an attack, release the mark to get access to à shadow buff that will absorb the next -ga spell within the next 10s. i dont know, there can be so much idea there.

Actually the way of tanking is broke by the over-use of Utsusemi.

[Eeek]

No.

4567890

[Novax]

Mnk doesn't need /nin to tank well.

[JiltedValkyrie]

I have tanked on BRD/PLD. It's pretty interesting. Seen some RDM do the same thing.

[Cdryik]

Need some good stuff to tank well without /nin. Counterstance with Spharai is very helpfull, have the black belt too (and some other gear that are easy to get). Actually paladin doesn't need /nin either, they have a great damage reducing from Empy shield and AF but most of the others pld that doesn't use empy shield or relic (thoses that still playing) still using /nin.
Everyone want /nin, whatever your job, as long as you are a physical DD, i understand most of them using it for dual wield, but utsusemi: Ni is too powerfull, there is no challenge with this tools when everyone have access to it, that's my point in the OP.

Everytime i come as monk, with some nice damage reducing gear, i got tell to be /nin and some NM are hard but so easy with utsusemi Ichi & Ni with counter there is no challenge.


I have tanked on BRD/PLD. It's pretty interesting. Seen some RDM do the same thing.

That's nice to heard, i'd like to listen your story :p

[Glamdring]

not to mention I can tank dancer/anything... and I'm doing pretty well pup/war or /dnc.

[Francisco]

The only NMs I'd even take MNK/NIN to now are Ulhuadshi (to limit TP when backwards tanking), Bukhis and maybe if I'm trying to proc blue while tanking something like Rani... can't think of anything else I'd need it on - though I haven't tried the tougher Voidwalkers NMs or Arch Dynamis Lord yet...

I pretty much just go MNK/WAR if partied, and MNK/DNC if I want to solo NMs for some reason.

[JiltedValkyrie]

That's nice to heard, i'd like to listen your story :p

Well, BRD gets a pretty crazy amount of -PDT gear and /PLD gives Shield Mastery I. It's a bit difficult to shield cleave, but I've done it with a few monsters. Very doable with a WHM curing you, but best just to Aeolian Edge, Horde Lullaby, and repeat. Doesn't work as well. It's a job that can take a lot of hits, however. Try it out. RDM/PLD would probably be better at it. Also, Sanguine Blade is nice to have.

[MarkovChain]

Mnk doesn't need /nin to tank well.

Because playing mnk in abyssea is nowhere close to tanking. Try dynamis VT demons / new NMs / DL / new DL tanking it /war and feel your pain. /nin is for tanking, /war is for optimizing damage. Cure VI argument doesn't work anymore, you are stuck with 2k hp and one single bad move like quadrastrike can wipe you.

[Korpg]

Get rid of Utsusemi: Ni, and you will destroy the shihei market. Then you would make a lot of woodworkers very angry. Since only /NIN uses shihei, but there are lots of them, and most people who /NIN do so for AoE absorbable moves. Not to tank, not to dual-wield, but to keep the WHM from having to curebomb everyone in the party.

[Cdryik]

In fact, i asked for Ni, you keep Ichi to avoid AoE if you're a Melee DD, only tank get damage in that so.
As you can take advantage to Innin as DD also, and Yonin if you decide to keep nin sub.

[JiltedValkyrie]

You don't have access to Innin or Yonin as /NIN. However, NIN can sub /MNK and use Counterstance, which I find works better for certain monsters. As NIN/MNK you don't use shadows except to absorb Tier V nukes.

[Cdryik]

Yeah thats also my point, make Ni only to lvl 50, and give Innin / Yonin instead as sub job.
I didn't tried /mnk as nin yet, i have no trouble keeping shadow up everytime.

[JiltedValkyrie]

Yeah thats also my point, make Ni only to lvl 50, and give Innin / Yonin instead as sub job.
I didn't tried /mnk as nin yet, i have no trouble keeping shadow up everytime.

Nah, you don't use shadows at all when /MNK. You counter the hits to build TP and keep hate better. It actually works very well, especially if you have Iga Hakama +2 with Yonin up (+5% counter) and Gnarled Horn (+10% counter).

[Cdryik]

I should try that so. thanks ^^

[Arcon]

You counter the hits to build TP and keep hate better.

Counter gives neither TP nor enmity. On the other hand, it does give the enemy TP.

[Akujima]

In fact, i asked for Ni, you keep Ichi to avoid AoE if you're a Melee DD, only tank get damage in that so.
As you can take advantage to Innin as DD also, and Yonin if you decide to keep nin sub.


He's right, you would still have Ichi. Ni gives 3 shadows with /nin anyways, the only difference is you make it longer to cast and without the possibility of /nin having 2 ways to put up shadows all the time.

[Leonlionheart]

You can be a crap MNK and tank without /NIN

All you need is RR/GH/Apoc, and capped h2h skill. That puts you about 15% from counter cap, which can be made up by relic feet. This makes Spharai virtually useless in abyssea, other than high base damage.

If you have those things you can sport full pink and still take minimal damage, although holding hate will be hard without good gear/Revenant fists +2/Ascetic's Fury/Vere

[Ravenmore]

Still wouldn't help pld tank more, just grab a nin. Infact that would hurt pld more then any one else. The key to getting pld to what you think it should be would be a buff not nerfing every other job. Not like it was every needed on anything to begin with.

[MarkovChain]

PLD can sub nin, I think.

[Jalonis]

Why does everyone sub nin? Because when lowmanning something everyones going to hit hate cap.

[Juilan]

I hit hate cap on [insert melee here] full manning stuff just by doing say 4 hits >.> at least thats what it seems since after i swing the monster is on me til one of us dies

[Pharaun]

Of all the terrible ideas on this forum this is quite possibly the worst one.

[Byrth]

Hey guys, I've got an awesome idea!

Instead of letting every job in the game be useful, lets make Ninja the only melee for a large amount of content!

[MarkovChain]

Hey guys, I've got an awesome idea!

Instead of letting every job in the game be useful, lets make Ninja the only melee for a large amount of content!

Because it's not the case already ? wake up. Always has been. Want me to pull out the previous vanadiel census to see which 6 jobs don't suck?

[Cdryik]

Actually, all job are playing ninja, it's all about utsusemi and haste. was a time a paladin was the best tank, and wasn't in need of using /nin. (miss that day) and Bard wasn't only the double march whore (on HNM).




Instead of letting every job in the game be useful, lets make Ninja the only melee for a large amount of content!

Have you ever play ninja ? it's not because they have Ichi and Ni they rules the world, NM have double/triple attack with high accuracy that you won't tank without difficulties. was a time you'd prefer get a paladin over a ninja just because it was safer.

[wish12oz]

If your melees are subbing NIN then you have more problems then them having access to utsusemi ni.

[Byrth]

No, there wasn't a time when Paladin was the best tank. There was a time when players weren't as well-geared and skilled as they are now, so Paladin was the safest tank because it largely relies on passive defenses. The way we play is an outgrowth of the game mechanics that have existed forever.

Also, there are plenty of jobs other than NIN being used right now for stuff. Thief and Dancer are competitive or superior for evasion. What would happen if they lost Utsusemi? It isn't like they're "I'm missing Ni but it's all okay!" better at evading stuff.

As far as the "I don't sub Ninja because I'm a gangster!" crowd. Well, outside of Abyssea to maintain that attitude you'd have to have tolerant and plentiful mages or a Dancer. I, personally, don't run with that many people anymore. I'd rather be on DNC/NIN with a BRD/WHM than change to WAR/SAM and bring a WHM/RDM to keep me alive. I do more damage, and it's less stressful on the mage.
Inside Abyssea, whatever. One good White Mage can heal pretty much any kind of party as long as you don't stick everyone in AoE range at once.

[Glamdring]

actually, there were simply mobs that were tanked better by different jobs. nin always had issues with anything that was AoE spam happy, since 1 AoE can take all shadows. Pld had the advantage of higher base def, and good magic def so that-shadows or no-they simply got hurt less by a hit. They also had more hate grabbing tools, especially /war. Nin had the advantage on mobs that straight melee or single target damage unless they had superb accuracy or very high attack speed, where your Utsu recast could be interrupted. Parties would often pick 1 over the other based on their intended prey.

However, the game has passed those days by. While nin can still tank, it's mostly due to their evasion, not shadows. Paladin still tank very well outside Abyssea, but in it... not so much, even tho' they still take a hit pretty well. The solution is not taking shadows away. I'm not certain what it is, maybe giving paladin hate-stealing abilities or something, but the shadows... no.

[MarkovChain]

I don't think you know anything about tanking.



Pld had the advantage of higher base def, and good magic def so that-shadows or no-they simply got hurt less by a hit.

Both jobs are equal against magic for one
Nin has an edge over pld because one shadow equals to no damage and secondly because nin is contributing greatly to damage.

What's left ? ONLY mobs that you don't DD pretty much and/or would kite. On those pld has an edge over nin sure but on the other hand rdm had an edge over pld (as well as plenty of other jobs, btw, you could "tank" Kirin or JoL on blm at least a few minutes lolz). There were situations where pld was useful, I remember see farming, not necessarely for tanking but rather to clear the path and zone the mobs, to hold some NMs until other die, supertanking situations, suicidal attempts to take AV down etc.


They also had more hate grabbing tools, especially /war.

/war is only useful for defender. Provoke generates less hate than a single melee round from a DD and it decays over time too. Melee rounds have anything from 2 ot 8 second cooldown while provoke is 30 second recast. A nin will always generate more hate than pld execpt the above situations (and by extension better DDs than nin would).

[Ravenmore]

PLD was only the best for the weak and gimps. NIN could tank most of the same mobs pld could, those it couldn't rdm/nin was better then both. Hey but they already tried to bring pld back by nerfing NIN/drk RDM/nin.

[MarkovChain]

RDM/NIN was never a good tank though except very little situations so nothing important was lost.

[Ravenmore]

Its was far better then crapy turtle plds, with more tools to live though most mobs. Also forgot sam can be jsut as good of a tank on old HNM then pld.

[wish12oz]

Pld had more hate grabbing tools, especially /war.

Just pointing out that this is where you lost all credibility. PLD/NIN held hate better then PLD/WAR, not getting hit and a 22.5 sec flash was better then provoke/defender/flash.


RDM/NIN was never a good tank.

RDM/NIN was the best tank for any HNM.

[Akujima]

I wish SE would step up and have the guts to do something unorthodox for once. Every other MMO has blood tanking as the main focus. Constantly avoiding DMG or taking so few DMG, kinda lessens the importance of "Healing" type jobs.

[Ravenmore]

They did do something "unorthodox" and this is not other MMOs. Would be one thing if people played healing jobs as much as they play DDs.

[MarkovChain]

Just pointing out that this is where you lost all credibility. PLD/NIN held hate better then PLD/WAR, not getting hit and a 22.5 sec flash was better then provoke/defender/flash.



RDM/NIN was the best tank for any HNM.

Nope any melee would have been better. It has to do we casting haste dia and marches. Ffxi 101.

[Sama]

Thats why they shouldn't get access to the level cap increase from physical/magical damage but get more evasion tools or Damage tools, by giving them the :Ni version of what they are missing (jubaku, yurin, aisha, etc...), giving them also the abilities to get mark from evading an attack, release the mark to get access to à shadow buff that will absorb the next -ga spell within the next 10s. i dont know, there can be so much idea there.[/COLOR]


FYI shadows used to absorb -ga, that's like 6 years ago, SE removed it because that time Nin was overpowered and can simply tank everything.

Not allowing other job which has /nin to use Ni shadows will just make the WHM crazy and eventually every DD/tanks are Nin.

[Bulrogg]

FYI shadows used to absorb -ga, that's like 6 years ago, SE removed it because that time Nin was overpowered and can simply tank everything.

It was always my hope that SE would un-nerf the Utsusemi update and allow shadows to absorb -agas again but only with Ninja set as a main job. Setting your sub job to ninja would result in utsusemi as it currently is.

[Alkalinehoe]

I wish SE would step up and have the guts to do something unorthodox for once. Every other MMO has blood tanking as the main focus. Constantly avoiding DMG or taking so few DMG, kinda lessens the importance of "Healing" type jobs.
Wouldn't doing something most other MMOs don't do be unorthodox?

[Akujima]

Wouldn't doing something most other MMOs don't do be unorthodox?


Unorthodox in this context means "To do something drastic" and completely change the game mechanics around. I realize I fumbled the wordplay there. So by all means call me on it and belittle me to your hearts content.

[JiltedValkyrie]

PLD was pretty great in Sky on gods. Once SE nerfed /DRK hate ability about a year ago, PLD became even more primary from my experience. Not that it matters at level 90 in Sky. Although my functions on NIN in Sky were more focused on pulling mobs for farming, kiting, and tossing winds so our tank would take much less damage (I have really high throwing skill because of this).

[Alkalinehoe]

Unorthodox in this context means "To do something drastic" and completely change the game mechanics around. I realize I fumbled the wordplay there. So by all means call me on it and belittle me to your hearts content.
I think Abyssea was pretty unorthodox. To say they haven't done anything unorthodox is just incorrect. They took out a lot of unnecessary time sinks which was embedded in nearly every event (Tags, Campaign rank up, 24 repops, X-days cooldown, etc) and made something very accessible that didn't require a huge LS to be competitive. They've already done something drastic and I hope they continue doing so.

[Mrbeansman]

I really wish plds would learn to accept that they suck and come to terms with reality. Why does everyone think that there should only be 1 job that should be able to tank?

[Ravenmore]

Nin was just as good in sky after the /drk nerf ways to get round it all you need is one sam/thf can cap hate on a nin. with a rng to shadow bind wait 30 secs.

[Akujima]

I think Abyssea was pretty unorthodox. To say they haven't done anything unorthodox is just incorrect. They took out a lot of unnecessary time sinks which was embedded in nearly every event (Tags, Campaign rank up, 24 repops, X-days cooldown, etc) and made something very accessible that didn't require a huge LS to be competitive. They've already done something drastic and I hope they continue doing so.


Yes, I am beaten. And I admit my defeat. Using the word "unorthodox" was stupid.

What I meant to say was, it's not common for other MMO's to drastically change the definition of certain classes/jobs. Completely re-working NIN to make it into a "jack of all trades" type DD (as it was originally intended to be), would be "unorthodox" in respect to how other MMO's would approach the issue.

[Ravenmore]

Really not helping your self.