"Double Cast"

[Raxiaz]

5 Min recast.
Gives the same effect as "Chainspell" but only for two spells.

Discuss.

[Supersun]

5 Min recast.
Gives the same effect as "Chainspell" but only for two spells.

Discuss.

It doesn't actually let us "do" anything we couldn't already do except double MB T4 nukes.

[Merton9999]

You could raise 2 people quickly. Or I'd pop it before reraise so I'm not caught casting it when someone needs a cure. I usually try to reapply during downtime when it's still up, but occasionally get caught without it.

I'd prefer a job trait that allows simultaneous casting of at least two spells at once at all times, with normal casting time (modified by FC of course). I know that's the traditional suggestion for Doublecast and it's often criticized as impossible to implement, but I never buy that. It would cut down on time spent buffing, if you're cycling refresh and haste anyway. It would also give RDM the unique ability to not worry about what else might happen after they start casting something long like raise/reraise.

The big issue would be equip swaps. If I see the need to emergency cure while casting a tier IV nuke, I'd still be tempted to wait until the nuke was finished so I don't get it off with Surya's on. This would be a potential problem with lots of spell combos.

[Supersun]

This is one of those things imo that would be "nice" to have but is far from needed especially in the face of a lot of issues that plagues Rdm at the moment. There are a lot of "needs" that need to be added before we hit the train wreck waiting for us at 99.

[Zemzerrett]

I've been suggesting this for ages. As another alternative a Job Ability that lets you cast a spell, but after the spell is cast sets the recast timer of that spell to 0:00 allowing you to cast that same spell immediately again. A derivative of my last idea, instead of having it as a Job Ability, have it has a Job Trait - working like Conserve MP, etc.

[Supersun]

instead of having it as a Job Ability, have it has a Job Trait - working like Conserve MP, etc.

That would not be a good thing. Some people macro in fast cast gear at the beginning of their spell then macro in potency gear to speed up their casting. If it's any percentage of activating other then 100% people won't be happy when they are suddenly casting important spells in fast cast gear.

And in terms of the recast thing I'd only really see that useful for nukes and occasionally stoneskin.

[ManaKing]

If dual wield can average delays and get the TP values right I'm skeptical that this couldn't be implemented. I would much rather have other things than this for RDM.

I mean i get that pretty much every other class can get tons of fast cast so it's not very unique, but that doesn't really make me want to put more emphasis on us being sub-par mages. Casting Blizzard 4 twice in a row and dealing less damage than a BLM is going to deal with Blizzard 5 isn't going to make me feel special. In fact, it's going to make me feel the opposite of that since i spent 46 extra MP to do it.

If you are looking to spice up my mage side than bring me a page from Chrono Trigger. I want Anitpode. Fire + Ice = magical meltdown.

Even more so that that that I want actual Fire Sword and Ice Sword. Give me the ability to save up TP and use a JA to crush my next magic burst strait through my enemies skull with my sword and you will find me one happy RDM. (Off to make a post....)

[Merton9999]

This is one of those things imo that would be "nice" to have but is far from needed especially in the face of a lot of issues that plagues Rdm at the moment. There are a lot of "needs" that need to be added before we hit the train wreck waiting for us at 99.

Agreed. Still think it would cool and mildly useful, but I'd go for something like ManaKing's Firesword/Icesword first. I always thought Runic would be good for this. The Runic JA would absorb the next elemental spell cast by the RDM, a mob or a party member, then lets you unleash its power with enhanced damage on your next WS. Ideally you'd be able to double just the nuke power with the release, in addition to the WS damage. You could use your own nuke, or a SCH or BLM in the party could enhance your damage by providing a higher tier spell for absorption than the RDM could.

[ManaKing]

^ What you just suggested sounds great as well. If they manage to put Runic in the game and make it offensive and defensive that would be amazing.

We need a way to deal more damage and it would be nice if it were magical damage.

[Doombringer]

Agreed. Still think it would cool and mildly useful, but I'd go for something like ManaKing's Firesword/Icesword first. I always thought Runic would be good for this. The Runic JA would absorb the next elemental spell cast by the RDM, a mob or a party member, then lets you unleash its power with enhanced damage on your next WS. Ideally you'd be able to double just the nuke power with the release, in addition to the WS damage. You could use your own nuke, or a SCH or BLM in the party could enhance your damage by providing a higher tier spell for absorption than the RDM could.

that'd also be a pretty interesting way for a blm to nuke hard without gaining any hate.

[Duelle]

If you are looking to spice up my mage side than bring me a page from Chrono Trigger. I want Anitpode. Fire + Ice = magical meltdown.You make me think of another one of my crazy ideas:

Job Abilities
Improvisation (1 minute cooldown): Allows the next spell cast to count as a weapon skill, allowing the Red Mage to skillchain. Spells cast through Improvisation can only open skillchains, not close them. Tentative addition: Allows two elemental spells to be cast simultaneously, thus combining their effects to create a lv2 skillchain opener. The resulting spell does 75% of the damage both spells would deal separately, but both spells cost their normal amounts of MP.

Improvised Spells
Rime I-III (Water&Ice element. Equivalent to Distortion)
Tempest I-III (Wind&Thunder element. Fragmentation)
Compress I-III (Earth&Darkness element. Compression)
Melt I-III (Fire&Light element. Equivalent of Fusion)Well, minus the spell counting as a weapon skill. I could live with Improvisation granting access to dual element spells.

[Kristal]

5 Min recast.
Gives the same effect as "Chainspell" but only for two spells.

Discuss.

It already has a name ingame: Quick Magic. And it's found -obviously- on the SCH empyrean +2 set, the WotG reward and atma of the apocalypse...

RDM could use a unique aspect.. something like a Magic Penetration trait that occasionally ignores all resistances, immunities and absorbs, as well as a JA that makes that 100% once every 5 minutes (to balance it, it uses the same timer as Saboteur.)

[ManaKing]

that'd also be a pretty interesting way for a blm to nuke hard without gaining any hate.

Actually a very good point. I would love to be able to take magical hate for other mages. I take damage well enough and I can cure myself.

[Raxiaz]

Yeah, RDMs are very well suited for taking damage and sustaining it over time...

Hmmm... something like:
Runic (Min 5 Recast)
Increases your magic accuracy by 15. Absorbs elemental damage into your weapon.

What you could do with that elemental damage then is add it to a weapon skill, or some such other. I do like the idea of Fire Sword/Ice Sword, RDM-Only. You could cast Blizzard IV on yourself then do a weaponskill and bam... loads of damage, or an additional effect, or some such other? I dunno. I would encourage the devs to at least play around with the idea first. xD

[Daniel_Hatcher]

It already has a name ingame: Quick Magic. And it's found -obviously- on the SCH empyrean +2 set, the WotG reward and atma of the apocalypse...

RDM could use a unique aspect.. something like a Magic Penetration trait that occasionally ignores all resistances, immunities and absorbs, as well as a JA that makes that 100% once every 5 minutes (to balance it, it uses the same timer as Saboteur.)

SCH should never have got that, and I say that as a SCH.

That along with their fast cast, it's making the job too much of a RDM mark.2

[Doombringer]

another cool use for runic would be to have it "charge" enspells to do dmg over there normal cap, relative to how much dmg the initial nuke would have done. even 5% of blizzard4, per swing, over 3 minutes, would be significant. then factor in composure and you're getting a LOT of DoT out of that 1 nukes worth of mp. then imagine that with a T5 nuke, or a T2 AM? it gets to the point where it would be borderline overpowered, but SE could just play around with that 5% figure.

would be a pretty interesting and unique way for an rdm to both contribute dmg, and mitigate hate gain on the blm.

[Supersun]

The only thing with Runic is it kinda makes it only useful for mobs that cast magic and mobs where you need magic.

That leaves a rather large portion of mobs that the JA is still worthless on and does nothing.

[Doombringer]

i was thinking se could tweak it to absorb our own spells, or spells cast on us by pt members.

[ManaKing]

i was thinking se could tweak it to absorb our own spells, or spells cast on us by pt members.

You shouldn't have to tweak it, Runic worked on all magic. Yours, your allies, your enemies. That would be party of the JA. If your BLM is casting AM and the mob or your party members cast something else, than you don't get the desired affect.

[Merton9999]

another cool use for runic would be to have it "charge" enspells to do dmg over there normal cap, relative to how much dmg the initial nuke would have done. even 5% of blizzard4, per swing, over 3 minutes, would be significant. then factor in composure and you're getting a LOT of DoT out of that 1 nukes worth of mp. then imagine that with a T5 nuke, or a T2 AM? it gets to the point where it would be borderline overpowered, but SE could just play around with that 5% figure.

would be a pretty interesting and unique way for an rdm to both contribute dmg, and mitigate hate gain on the blm.

Yep, that's what I had suggested here:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/294-On-Red-Mage-melee...?p=90783&highlight=runic#post90783

With one ability RDM can cancel or pre-siphon other nukers' hate, make their melee more attractive, have a potential defensive stun, spice up enspells a bit, introduce another sort of cooperative move set or combine their own nukes with their sword/dagger skill, and most importantly be able to use one of the simplest yet coolest moves in FF history.

I get what Supersun is saying about it only being useful on mobs that require magic. That's why I like the additional JA idea "Runic Seal" where you'd lock the remaining portion of the absorbed damage for use in the next WS and subsequently unable to enhance remaining enspells. Ideally the charged WS would follow normal damage rules for that WS (magic or physical), just charged by the Runic-absorbed spell. So effectively you could use your or another's nuking MP to deliver a powerful physical WS on a magic resistant mob.

[Merton9999]

Back to Double Cast though, I actually can think of quite a few situational uses for this the way the OP originally presented it - 2 insta cast spells. Not only two quick raises and a way to insta-cast reraise consistently, but you could also use it to Double Cast stoneskin if you're getting beat on and don't want to risk the hate of a couple Cure IVs. Assuming it would also reset the second spell's recast timer to 0, I might even use it to Double Cast gravity on something I'm kiting that could possibly resist it. Similarly, if your Slow II can possibly get resisted (?), Double Cast Slow II for an extra chance of landing it without waiting for recast. Or if you're soloing on /NIN you'd have a bunch of successive shadows here. /BLM or /DRK and three quick stuns every five minutes. And my favorite, Double Cast instant Warp II's, Warp or Teleports just for saving time. Not big things but they're getting me thinking.

Also, I don't consider this already in the game because Quick Magic exists. It's a huge meaningful difference that you could use Double Cast intentionally rather than it firing off randomly.

Having said that, though, I still view this as more of a neat toy than anything super useful. It wouldn't do much to make RDM more attractive to current party set ups, which is what the job needs right now. In that sense I'd still go for Runic first, and second, a Double Cast that allows simultaneous casting to cut down on cycling time, despite its obvious problems with equip swaps. Although even those two wouldn't be enough.

[idx1]

Double cast. That would be great - you do realize that if you cast a spell under a 'chainspell effect' said spell is hit with -0- recast penalty.

RDM/BLM would be nice. Double Cast > Bliz 4 > Stun > Bind > Bliz 4 Normal Cast > Stun Normal Cast.
Actually did some damage.

Too bad it won't happen.

[Raxiaz]

Yeah.

Actually, limiting it to enhancing, enfeebling, and healing magic would balance it, don't you think?

[idx1]

If that is what it takes for it to be implemented I'd take it.

But again, it won't be happening.

RDM instant Cure IV and Cure III?
RDM instant Break/Sleep + Stoneskin?

Never.

[Raksha]

If that is what it takes for it to be implemented I'd take it.

But again, it won't be happening.

RDM instant Cure IV and Cure III?
RDM instant Break/Sleep + Stoneskin?

Never.

Instant stoneskin + utsu: Ichi.

Yep not going to happen.

[Supersun]

Utsu is enhancing?

[Raksha]

Utsu is enhancing?


5 Min recast.
Gives the same effect as "Chainspell" but only for two spells.

Discuss.


Last I checked chainspell worked with Utsu. But my reply was in response to:


Yeah.

Actually, limiting it to enhancing, enfeebling, and healing magic would balance it, don't you think?

I probably should've quoted both posts.

[Raxiaz]

I wouldn't want double cast to affect Ninjutsu. If SE was smart, they would limit it to only white and black magic (like RDM was originally intended, no?).

And IMO, Cure IV + III instantly, makes RDM more of a viable healer next to WHM. Particularly in abyssea. Though I gotta admit, it still wouldn't be enough.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Just limit it to spells of the family we have native skill in.

[Covenant]

"double cast" seems overpowered. I think a 10min recast like "seals" more appropriate. However, I'd go with "quicken cast". Ideally, use of this job ability would push the level of "fast cast" to a +1 or +2 effect. For example, tier 1 fast cast at whatever level would be considered tier 2 or 3. What's the finally tier IV or V? Either way, they would become tier V-VII give a take a tier depending on how quick this /JA ability worked.
Yes, admittedly subbing scholar would give this same effect but then a redmage would be locked down to that sub job.

[Raksha]

And IMO, Cure IV + III instantly, makes RDM more of a viable healer next to WHM. Particularly in abyssea. Though I gotta admit, it still wouldn't be enough.

WHy not just use cure4 + cure4?

And also, why the next TWO spells? elemental/divine seal and sch stratagems only apply to the next spell, Casting one spell instantly, then being able to immediately cast it again normally is more like double cast to me. Instant + Instant + regular sounds like triple cast.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

"double cast" seems overpowered. I think a 10min recast like "seals" more appropriate. However, I'd go with "quicken cast". Ideally, use of this job ability would push the level of "fast cast" to a +1 or +2 effect. For example, tier 1 fast cast at whatever level would be considered tier 2 or 3. What's the finally tier IV or V? Either way, they would become tier V-VII give a take a tier depending on how quick this /JA ability worked.
Yes, admittedly subbing scholar would give this same effect but then a redmage would be locked down to that sub job.

A RDM more or less has double-cast at least in getting -50~% casting reduction. All Double Cast would allow is to do the same thing twice, so it's not really in anyway overpowered.

[ManaKing]

WHy not just use cure4 + cure4?

And also, why the next TWO spells? elemental/divine seal and sch stratagems only apply to the next spell, Casting one spell instantly, then being able to immediately cast it again normally is more like double cast to me. Instant + Instant + regular sounds like triple cast.

It's not actually instant cast x2. There is still the delay from the casting animation. It would still take up time. Not as much time as some spells take to cast, but certainly faster than twice. The only thing triple about it is the recast. But if you think about it, you could cast Ultima 5 turns in a row in old FFs.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

It's not actually instant cast x2. There is still the delay from the casting animation. It would still take up time. Not as much time as some spells take to cast, but certainly faster than twice. The only thing triple about it is the recast. But if you think about it, you could cast Ultima 5 turns in a row in old FFs.

DoubleCast should only have an increased duration after the ability is used. The main use was casting to spells perfectly in sync. Taking away the ability to do the same spell twice weakens the effect.

That said, I'd only double the recast duration, not triple.

[ManaKing]

If you don't get the recast reset on the 2nd spell it's not a big deal. This subject is definitely in the list of icing, in that it is nice, but is nothing without the cake.

This can't be the only buff that RDM is looking forward to.

[Raxiaz]

Looks like SE is going to give RDMs an ability similar to "Double Cast." Looking good, SE... looking good. <3