KI-popped-NM Stealing

[Sama]

This is happening almost every second throughout the A zones I find it's very upsetting:

You spent hours to get KI; popped the NM, KI is lost, but during the fight the NM went unexpectedly unclaimed for whatever reasons and all the sudden some greedy thief steals it.

I had one time helping friend to fight Rani, at the very last moment I was KOed BUT the rest of the alliance are not. All the sudden, a mnk, who has been standing around watching and waiting for this moment, chi'ed it and finished it off with 2H.

I understand that this is 'fair' for the free timed pop NM, but people have spent time to the farmed KI just like getting seals for burning circles and it should not be stolen during the fight.

Here is my suggestion you some of you thief may find disturbing:

KI-popped NM: Only the party who traded the KIs can engage; the NM will go de-pop when the party is wiped or simply decided withdraw from battle.

Time/Free popping NM: Just as you expected, if you failed then anyone can claim it.

This is just a rough proposal and therefore requires further discussion.

---

SE and forum please advise.

[JiltedValkyrie]

Somebody else should have had hate.

[Sama]

Somebody else should have had hate.

Half of the alliance does, NM got stolen AND it's still hit the mages a few times.

[Bulrogg]

We had a similar situation happen on Briareus. After he used his 2hr we spread out to avoid his mega slam and he went yellow from being to far away and disengaging. Before we could reclaim another party had gotten claim on him but Briareus continued to pick us off and didn't turn to the other party until he finished us off.

[rog]

If the person who last acted on the mob dies, then everyone else should start casting/voking asap, before it goes yellow. No need to make a thread crying because not one person in your alliance thought to do that.

[Tamoa]

Why make a new thread when there is an almost identical one on
page 1 of this forum section?: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/8299-Why-Do-You-Loose-Claim-On-Abyssea-Mobs-If-Everyone-Is-Not-Dead

[Sama]

If the person who last acted on the mob dies, then everyone else should start casting/voking asap, before it goes yellow. No need to make a thread crying because not one person in your alliance thought to do that.

That greedy monk stood there I bet he spam voke like shit through out the whole fight.

[Sama]

Why make a new thread when there is an almost identical one on
page 1 of this forum section?: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/8299-Why-Do-You-Loose-Claim-On-Abyssea-Mobs-If-Everyone-Is-Not-Dead

This thread only involved with KI-poping NM.

[Dew]

Even if he did stand there and spam it, would take 2 actions to claim if it still had hate on the ally.

[Eeek]

NMs only go yellow when something goes seriously wrong, and I'm sure the claim system code is so old and fundamental to how everything else works that fiddling with said code could set off waves of unintended effects throughout the game.

I'm afraid the only practical solution is to Suck Less. Or for the BSTs and SMNs out there (who do have legitimate problems with the claim system), try to find duo partners for contested NMs or suck it up and take the risk of losing an NM during pet swaps.

[Eeek]

Even if he did stand there and spam it, would take 2 actions to claim if it still had hate on the ally.

Also this.

If that MNK was the only DD, mages should have been spamming Flash/Stun/whatever to grab hate and kite Rani around the nearby ruins.

[Tamoa]

This thread only involved with KI-poping NM.

I don't see the difference. Both that other thread and this one complain about the same things, the same possible solutions will be suggested. You yourself already suggested what's basically the same as in the other thread: make it impossible for NM to go unclaimed short of wiping/zoning. Whether it's force pop NM or timed spawn NM doesn't really matter, especially now that the vast majority of NMs we fight in this game, are force popped.

[Cetra]

personal experience with this:
1. pop mob
2. alliance starts fighting
3. mob turns yellow midway through fight (no deaths/dc's/disengages)
4. 14 counted re-claim actions post-yellow by the alliance
5. outside guy cast dia II and claims
6. alliance wipes due to having full hate to "purple" claimed NM
7. outside guy dies

we are not angry or disgruntled about this, this is just to point out that the system for holding claim on any monster is currently insufficient. The assumption cannot be made that someone has screwed up, because even if you do everything right the game is glitching.

on a second note, this has been observed to happen with more then just NM's. When fighting random mobs throughout the game, it has been seen that a mob will turn yellow now and then. This is not excessively common, but has happened to me once or twice in the last month.

I would submit this as a bug if I was certain of how to reproduce it.. but unless you can prove your case then SE will just say we are at fault and not bother to look at it, lol

[blowfin]

Yeah, people claiming that you suck if things go yellow are idiots. Soloing an iron giant last night the thing went yellow halfway through the fight. Hate reset or not, both myself and the pet had performed actions on the mob and should have been on the hate list. No logical reason for it to have gone yellow, unless pathing is bugged on a flat surface... when i`m standing a mere 20 yalms away.

That`s not an isolated example either, and I`ve seen this with larger groups too. Mobs clearly going yellow while there are still alive party members on the hate list.


If that MNK was the only DD, mages should have been spamming Flash/Stun/whatever to grab hate and kite Rani around the nearby ruins.

Well, the problem there is it`s often unexpected when something goes yellow. You have someone standing around waiting to gank your NM while your party is naturally more concerned with fighting the thing. The advantage is clearly with the group waiting to take the NM.

For the record things seem a lot worse with this in Abyss for some reason. About the only time you could make a mob go yellow outside was to be fighting 2 different mobs in the party/alliance, during a pet swap because you were too slow, or clearing the entire hate list. These mechanics seem different in Abyssea, or maybe the pathing is just that horrible in some of these zones.


I'm afraid the only practical solution is to Suck Less. Or for the BSTs and SMNs out there (who do have legitimate problems with the claim system), try to find duo partners for contested NMs or suck it up and take the risk of losing an NM during pet swaps.

See the first paragraph. Pet swapping isn`t even necessary to see this happen.

[Khajit]

Perhaps if one doesn't want to be told they suck they shouldn't be taking hours to complete a pop when it takes 20~30 minutes at worst and can be done in 15 minutes?

[blowfin]

Perhaps if one doesn't want to be told they suck they shouldn't be taking hours to complete a pop when it takes 20~30 minutes at worst and can be done in 15 minutes?

Way to post on topic dude. I`d comment more on how you could suck less at forums but it`s probably a waste of breath.

[Sama]

Well, the problem there is it`s often unexpected when something goes yellow. You have someone standing around waiting to gank your NM while your party is naturally more concerned with fighting the thing. The advantage is clearly with the group waiting to take the NM.



This is exactly what have happened; I bet some sicken individual would even follow your shout group especially going after cat and wait for the yellow moment to claim your near death NM.

I agree with Blowfin the advantage is definitely on the waiting group and this should not be the way...

[blowfin]

I find it surprising that the same people who supported the fixing of pet PDT arent supporting something else that seems even more broken and open to abuse.

[Yarly]

Crying over stolen mobs is silly.

[blowfin]

Crying over stolen mobs is silly.

Agreed, but stealing them is pretty smrt too.

[Jalonis]

Simple solution: burn KIs on death, not on pop.

Edit: Nevermind, that wouldn't work.

Change all force pop NMs to conflict status such as the Voidwatch NMs.

[Eeek]

Yeah, people claiming that you suck if things go yellow are idiots. Soloing an iron giant last night the thing went yellow halfway through the fight. Hate reset or not, both myself and the pet had performed actions on the mob and should have been on the hate list. No logical reason for it to have gone yellow, unless pathing is bugged on a flat surface... when i`m standing a mere 20 yalms away.

You were far enough away that the mob could not take any action on you. Mobs can and will go yellow under such circumstances. Ask any BLM who spent time at the old puddings camp in Mount Zhaylom how many puddings they deaggro'd and depopped while getting used to the camp.

And yes, the mob pathing really is that bad. It's that bad in a lot of places in the game. For example, I accidently depopped entire trains of Brasscaps several times while working on trials in Grauberg [S].

[Eeek]

This is exactly what have happened; I bet some sicken individual would even follow your shout group especially going after cat and wait for the yellow moment to claim your near death NM.

I agree with Blowfin the advantage is definitely on the waiting group and this should not be the way...

I see. I've been doing it wrong all along. The trick to claiming mobs is to not claim the mobs!

Your groups is losing claim because they screwed up. It's that simple.

[Sama]

I see. I've been doing it wrong all along. The trick to claiming mobs is to not claim the mobs!

Your groups is losing claim because they screwed up. It's that simple.

Whether it's screwed or not that's not you can defined. This tread is intended for NM pop with KI.

If I pop the NM and I suck and lost, I don't want you to have it, is that simple.

Please don't comment if you have no suggestion, all your posts you are only saying how good you are and how others suck, that's not helping cowboy.

[Greatguardian]

If I can't have it, nobody can! Muahahahahaha!

Other people just shouldn't be allowed to play FFXI. Everyone should get their own server. THAT would put an end to the problem!

[Zumi]

Learn to play better and not die and you won't have this problem. It's nobody's fault but your own if you lost claim on a mob because you died or something. You deserve to lose your NM if you screwed up that badly. Seriously almost all of the NMs in Abyssea are such a joke. FFXI isn't a hard game.

[Eeek]

Whether it's screwed or not that's not you can defined. This tread is intended for NM pop with KI.

If I pop the NM and I suck and lost, I don't want you to have it, is that simple.

Please don't comment if you have no suggestion, all your posts you are only saying how good you are and how others suck, that's not helping cowboy.

The claim system is surely so deeply embedded in the game's code that it cannot be changed without drastic and unintended effects throughout the rest of the game. It's not SE's fault if you fail to understand how it works.

Wiping when Murphy's Law is out for your hide is OK. It happens to everyone. Just do everyone a favor and take it like a man. Dust yourself off, swear a few times, and go farm up another KI popset. It's ridiculously easy and you won't look like a whiny little sissy anymore.

As for this?

"If I pop the NM and I suck and lost, I don't want you to have it, is that simple."

If you're going to be that butthurt about the occasional wipe, just CFH it and scream profanities in /say and /shout while throwing an immature temper tantrum that'd be the envy of all the preschoolers across the country.

[Khajit]

Way to post on topic dude. I`d comment more on how you could suck less at forums but it`s probably a waste of breath.

It's entirely on topic. A bunch of people are complaining about losing mobs because they go yellow when it's fairly obvious from everything that they say that they have not a single clue about anything they are talking about. They need to be told to suck less because if they weren't so horrible a bunch of players that 15 minutes of work takes "hours" they would have had enough time to realize how the claim system even works.
Is it annoying when you lose claim because a mob turned yellow? yes. But it is not completely random as hell and in order for it to happen you generally need to be wiping. There was even an announcement by SE with bloody charts for you guys to learn how things work.
Stop complaining about problems that don't exist.

[blowfin]

You deserve to lose your NM if you screwed up that badly.

This is the whole point of the thread, being missed in one sentence.

Nobody deserves to get their mob jacked due to bad hate mechanics, period.

[Korpg]

Or for the BSTs and SMNs out there (who do have legitimate problems with the claim system), try to find duo partners for contested NMs or suck it up and take the risk of losing an NM during pet swaps.

I never lose claim on NMs when I solo as a SMN. I think BSTs only lose claim when they have to charm another mob to attack the one beating on them. Which doesn't work in Abyssea.

So I'm not sure if pet swaps by themselves would affect claim.

[blowfin]

So I'm not sure if pet swaps by themselves would affect claim.

They do, if you don`t get your new pet in quick enough or perform an action on the mob it will go yellow.

[Korpg]

personal experience with this:
1. pop mob
2. alliance starts fighting
3. mob turns yellow midway through fight (no deaths/dc's/disengages)
4. 14 counted re-claim actions post-yellow by the alliance
5. outside guy cast dia II and claims
6. alliance wipes due to having full hate to "purple" claimed NM
7. outside guy dies


You sure that the player didn't bothack that NM from you guys? That has happened in the past. People have been banned from doing that, but we all know how effective that really is.

[Korpg]

They do, if you don`t get your new pet in quick enough or perform an action on the mob it will go yellow.

You sure about that? I have never lost claim on a mob, unless I have my weapon out and the mob runs too far away for me to continue to attack it. But even then, that was in party situations.

When I'm soloing on SMN, if I know my avatar won't survive for long, I run far enough away from the mob where my avatar's lifebar is no longer on the screen, which is further than the "put away the weapon" point of losing claim, and resummon when the avatar dies. The mob is always claimed when it comes running to me. If it were to turn yellow, it would have a long time ago after my avatar died.

I'm sure that BST is the same way, except they can almost instantly put a new pet on the mob, unless they are also meleeing and have to run away far enough to disengage from the mob, right when their pet died, then I would see the mob turning yellow.

[Khajit]

Wrong on multiple counts. If the bst mischarms it has claim of the mob they tried to charm for one.
And I'm not sure on the second account but simply attempting to charm the new mob to throw at it probably loses claim on the NM.
That's not even getting into how if the bst gets more hate from a different monster the pet will move to the new monster and lose claim so the instant a bst gets aggro it has to ignore said aggro or risk losing claim while getting beat on.

[blowfin]

You sure about that?

When I'm soloing on SMN, if I know my avatar won't survive for long, I run far enough away from the mob where my avatar's lifebar is no longer on the screen, which is further than the "put away the weapon" point of losing claim, and resummon when the avatar dies. The mob is always claimed when it comes running to me. If it were to turn yellow, it would have a long time ago after my avatar died.

Yes, for BST that example is going to result in a yellow mob just about every time.

[wish12oz]

If they are going to add battlefield status to abyssea NMs like the new dynamis stuff, I hope they add 10 minute depop timers as well. So I don't have to deal with people who shouldn't be fighting stuff taking 2 hours to zombie it to death.

[blowfin]

So I don't have to deal with people who shouldn't be fighting stuff taking 2 hours to zombie it to death.

I love that, `people who shouldn`t be fighting stuff`: in an MMO. Epic lolz, how can you take yourself seriously when saying that?:confused:

With a battlefield status I`d assume that the NM`s would depop if the hate list was cleared. So zombie isn`t really that much of a plausible option anyway. Unless you`re good enough to pull it off, in which case you probably don`t need to zombie anyway.

See VNM/Voidwatch for an example.

[Khajit]

I love that, `people who shouldn`t be fighting stuff`: in an MMO. Epic lolz, how can you take yourself seriously when saying that?:confused:

With a battlefield status I`d assume that the NM`s would depop if the hate list was cleared. So zombie isn`t really that much of a plausible option anyway. Unless you`re good enough to pull it off, in which case you probably don`t need to zombie anyway.

See VNM/Voidwatch for an example.

The more you talk the less you appear to know about the game at all. Have you seriously never been in an bcnm to know how they work?

And while we're at it where is your understanding on basic context in human speech?

[wish12oz]

I love that, `people who shouldn`t be fighting stuff`: in an MMO. Epic lolz, how can you take yourself seriously when saying that?:confused:

With a battlefield status I`d assume that the NM`s would depop if the hate list was cleared. So zombie isn`t really that much of a plausible option anyway. Unless you`re good enough to pull it off, in which case you probably don`t need to zombie anyway.

See VNM/Voidwatch for an example.

Mobs don't instantly depop if you wipe, they walk back to their spawn point, and then stand there for a bit. And I guess you are on the side of people who spend 2 hours fighting something with an alliance I could solo in 10 minutes, so I guess you wouldn't understand what I mean. But the basic idea is that it's ignorant and rude to zombie hold stuff when people are waiting for you to be done, that's why they will steal it from you and kill it, not because they are bad selfish people, but because you are. (most of the time this is true anyway, there are some real jerks around)

[Rie]

Post I replied to vanished!

[Khiinroye]

In battlefield status, the NM still has to return to its pop spot and stand there for a little, so that would not prevent the use of Atma of the Zombie Apocalypse. However, the time limit on confrontation would mean that the NM would depop eventually since the zombies wouldn't be able to do anything to it.

The only valid complaints for mobs going yellow and people not doing things wrong are 1) bsts during pet swaps and 2) the rare random glitch where nobody has died or disengaged, and the mob turns yellow for a second or two. I've seen #2 happen once recently, when some mnk was soloing Pallid Percy. If you're kiting or people are dying and the mob goes yellow, then its probably something you did wrong.

The claim system has been patched before; from what I understand, KB was notorious for turning yellow several times per fight no matter what you did.

[Khajit]

If they are going to add battlefield status to abyssea NMs like the new dynamis stuff, I hope they add 10 minute depop timers as well. So I don't have to deal with people who shouldn't be fighting stuff taking 2 hours to zombie it to death.

That would actually suck in the end because if you come to help a friend or your friend comes to help you after popping they get locked out and so on and so forth with various scenarios all the way down to inviting some noob in that needs a title.

[wish12oz]

The claim system has been patched before; from what I understand, KB was notorious for turning yellow several times per fight no matter what you did.

I can confirm both of these statements as true. Way back in the day when I first started HNM, KB would unclaim like crazy, and at some point they did update the mechanics behind it and made it better, but it's still not perfect. I remember the first time I got to fight KB, I was on RDM and told not to cast any dots on it, because if it ran out of engaging distance and I had a dot on it that it would unclaim.


That would actually suck in the end because if you come to help a friend or your friend comes to help you after popping they get locked out and so on and so forth with various scenarios all the way down to inviting some noob in that needs a title.


Ya, it does happen and it sucks. The other day I went to do some Dynamis Lords, and our bard was going to pop it, and was rotating through the 2 parties and actually popped it outside the alliance, and no one could fight it. It was pretty lol.

[blowfin]

The more you talk the less you appear to know about the game at all. Have you seriously never been in an bcnm to know how they work?

I haven`t done much Dyna since the update so I`m really not sure what people are talking about when they refer to `battlefield status` in there. I was thinking more along the lines of the Voidwatch/VNM system. Have you never fought a VNM to know what i`m referring to? Are you capable of posting without slinging insults?


Mobs don't instantly depop if you wipe, they walk back to their spawn point, and then stand there for a bit. And I guess you are on the side of people who spend 2 hours fighting something with an alliance I could solo in 10 minutes, so I guess you wouldn't understand what I mean. But the basic idea is that it's ignorant and rude to zombie hold stuff when people are waiting for you to be done, that's why they will steal it from you and kill it, not because they are bad selfish people, but because you are. (most of the time this is true anyway, there are some real jerks around)

No of course I don`t support people who take two hours to zombie kill, not that I`ve EVER seen that happen in the game. Unless you`re tending to massive hyperbole (which i suspect), I`m not sure what backwater server you`d be on to see that happening. If people do that kind of thing, then by all means they deserve to have their mobs jacked.

The problem which people seem to keep ignoring is that with the potential there to jack mobs, people are going to attempt do it regardless of whether it`s `fair` or not, because it`s a wholly subjective measure, generally based on how high the sense of self-entitlement is, and how much you cry about people `wasting your time` in a video game. Same point that people were raising with the PDT patch a couple of days ago. Doesn`t matter how much it`s abused, the fact that it can be should be enough to have it changed.

Good example: Some people from my shell I was with the other night jacked an Alfard at 7% when the tank died, and subsequently the WHM. The group probably would have gotten their act together and finished it off, but it didn`t stop the folks in my party from pinging the thing and trying to kill it. Of course the folks I was with claimed the other group wouldn`t have been able to finish it off, not that we got the chance to prove that theory. I was mortally embarrassed by that, not just because it made us look like greedy SOB`s, but because I`d been crafting for one of them and funnily enough, haven`t had any return business since. Even though I need the fangs, I would have turned them down in that situation if the NM hadn`t of been handed back to the original group.

[Khajit]

I haven`t done much Dyna since the update so I`m really not sure what people are talking about when they refer to `battlefield status` in there. I was thinking more along the lines of the Voidwatch/VNM system. Have you never fought a VNM to know what i`m referring to? Are you capable of posting without slinging insults?




Well at least you confirmed you have no clue what you're talking about...

[blowfin]

Well at least you confirmed you have no clue what you're talking about...

lolDyna

Confirmed. I don`t care about it.

[svengalis]

Why make a new thread when there is an almost identical one on
page 1 of this forum section?: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/8299-Why-Do-You-Loose-Claim-On-Abyssea-Mobs-If-Everyone-Is-Not-Dead

The only way to get a problem fixed is to keep complaining about until something is done. If only one person complains then it will probably be overlooked. I agree with TC this should be looked at.

[Tamoa]

The claim system is surely so deeply embedded in the game's code that it cannot be changed without drastic and unintended effects throughout the rest of the game. It's not SE's fault if you fail to understand how it works.

Wiping when Murphy's Law is out for your hide is OK. It happens to everyone. Just do everyone a favor and take it like a man. Dust yourself off, swear a few times, and go farm up another KI popset. It's ridiculously easy and you won't look like a whiny little sissy anymore.

As for this?

"If I pop the NM and I suck and lost, I don't want you to have it, is that simple."

If you're going to be that butthurt about the occasional wipe, just CFH it and scream profanities in /say and /shout while throwing an immature temper tantrum that'd be the envy of all the preschoolers across the country.

Just quoting this because it's the appropriate response to all this whining.

[Khajit]

lolDyna

Confirmed. I don`t care about it.

Perhaps you should exit the conversation and let grownups who know wtf they're talking about talk?
Here's a hint. Noone was specifically talking about dynamis when it came to battlefields.

[blowfin]

Ganking mobs is surely so deeply embedded in the players mindset that it cannot be changed without drastic and unintended effects throughout the rest of the game. It's not SE's fault if you fail to understand how it works.

Fixed that for you.

[blowfin]

Here's a hint. Noone was specifically talking about dynamis when it came to battlefields.

Absolutely nobody?


If they are going to add battlefield status to abyssea NMs like the new dynamis stuff


like the new dynamis stuff


dynamis

[Tamoa]

1. Losing claim for whatever reason happens to us all. Like Eeek said, take it like a man.

2. If you repeatedly keep losing claim because you die or otherwise screw up - seriously, suck less.

3. If there really is a glitch that makes mobs randomly go unclaimed for no reason at all, it can't be happening very often because otherwise there would be 4237647625 forum members SCREAMING about it on this forum.

[Khajit]

Absolutely nobody?

A) improve your grammar comprehension.
B) Stop confirming you have no knowledge of what your talking about by being quiet. We get it. you don't understand a thing and barely understand English. Move on.
C) Read the bleeping manual. There's even an explanation on what the battlefield status is in it although the entire thing is self explanatory.

[blowfin]

A) improve your grammar comprehension.
B) Stop confirming you have no knowledge of what your talking about by being quiet. We get it. you don't understand a thing and barely understand English. Move on.

So nobody at all mentioned battlefield status in relation to Dynamis. That`s what i`m getting out of this. Unless proven otherwis.... oh wait.

P.S. It`s called reading comprehension by the way.

[Leonlionheart]

Well it's been said but I'll reiterate for the lulz:

Non-broken game dynamic does not need fixing.

I've lost Briareus, not because my LS sucks, but because we TP burned it down to 20% in like 30 seconds and got destroyed by colossal slam, our 1 WHM couldn't take the load. We'd done it before, but 2 2hours just took us out.

Did we QQ and rage? No, because we know what we did wrong and haven't lost a Briar since.

On the other hand we take mobs if the other group has disrespected us and/or is 100% weakened, meaning unless they have Mijin Gakure up there is no chance of success without constant zombying/HP'ing and regrouping- which we just won't wait for.

[Korpg]

If they are going to add battlefield status to abyssea NMs like the new dynamis stuff, I hope they add 10 minute depop timers as well. So I don't have to deal with people who shouldn't be fighting stuff taking 2 hours to zombie it to death.

What about me taking 30 minutes to defeat? Because that is about on average the amount of time it takes me to kill a mob as SMN in A-Altep. Am I zombie it to death? Depends if you consider 4 avatar deaths as zombie tactics.

Either way, by forcing a 10 minute time limit, you just limit different procs (you know that Shinryu's abyssite doesn't give out a hint every WS) and possibly a bad AoE or mistimed cure might cause the time limit to go over. I know, you never experience that because you are able to obtain all procs within 30 seconds of the mob's life, and the other 10 seconds is used to zerg it down. For those of us who don't have all that, 10 minutes can be a stretch. Soloists, almost impossible.

[Sama]

I've lost Briareus, not because my LS sucks, but because we TP burned it down to 20% in like 30 seconds and got destroyed by colossal slam, our 1 WHM couldn't take the load. We'd done it before, but 2 2hours just took us out.


My bottom line to this is: if the party is wiped completely, the KI-popped NM should at least remain in claimed for say 30-60 seconds, instead of the instantaneously unclaimed state when 13/18 of the alliance is still on their feet. You know there are people greedy enough to follow your group and wait for this moment.

Doing so, in case the party really want to zombie it, they may realized they suck and will stayed KO for 30-60 second, then someone else can take; at the same time, the other individual/group trying to steal will not be able to take it in the middle of the fight.

[Korpg]

Wrong on multiple counts. If the bst mischarms it has claim of the mob they tried to charm for one.
And I'm not sure on the second account but simply attempting to charm the new mob to throw at it probably loses claim on the NM.
That's not even getting into how if the bst gets more hate from a different monster the pet will move to the new monster and lose claim so the instant a bst gets aggro it has to ignore said aggro or risk losing claim while getting beat on.

Which, of course, wouldn't happen in Abyssea.

Unless you can charm mobs in there. Which I know you can't. Which is what this thread is talking about, KI-pop'd mobs.

[Leonlionheart]

My bottom line to this is: if the party is wiped completely, the KI-popped NM should at least remain in claimed for say 30 seconds, instead of the instantaneously unclaimed state when 17/18 of the alliance is still on their feet. You know there are people greedy enough to follow your group and wait for this moment.

Happens, but 2/3 times we get them back.

Treat others how they would treat you works in game, so does eye for an eye. If they get you, get them.

("Accidental" MPK works good.)

[Korpg]

You know there are people greedy enough to follow your group and wait for this moment.

Only Futchy has been known to do this tactic. Now that almost everyone knows who he is and what he is capable of doing, they usually already have a GM called on him if he starts hanging around your party/alliance.

[Leonlionheart]

Only Futchy has been known to do this tactic. Now that almost everyone knows who he is and what he is capable of doing, they usually already have a GM called on him if he starts hanging around your party/alliance.

You must never have been to Asura then have you?

[Khajit]

Which, of course, wouldn't happen in Abyssea.

Unless you can charm mobs in there. Which I know you can't. Which is what this thread is talking about, KI-pop'd mobs.

You forgot the fact that the bst getting hate from any other monster is going to make the mob unclaimed if it exceeds the hate the bst has on the original mob. The lack of charmable mobs doesn't stop that. Bst has it "better" in abyssea as far as claims go because SE gutted half the gameplay involved in bst by not making anything charmable. Well either way it's still near impossible to actually lose your claim if you know wtf you're doing. Bst was the exception to that and currently it's almost impossible for said exception to happen.

[blowfin]

Only Futchy has been known to do this tactic. Now that almost everyone knows who he is and what he is capable of doing, they usually already have a GM called on him if he starts hanging around your party/alliance.

And yet we`re led to believe he should be trusted when leading a KS99 run.

[Greatguardian]

Protip for those who have multiple relics and still don't know how the FFXI claim system works:

Only One Person Ever Has Claim On Any Single Monster At Any Given Time.

Not an alliance. Not a party. One person. The last person to act on the monster has claim to the monster. If the last person to act on the monster dies, then the mob goes unclaimed until someone else acts on it. It takes a single action to regain claim when the mob already has hate on you. It takes two consecutive actions to take claim when the monster does not have hate on you, eg when an outside player attempts to claim the monster.

Players in the original party are at a distinct advantage in keeping claim over their monster. Any educated player is more than capable of keeping claim over monsters even if people get charmed or killed. You simply have to know what preventative measures to take if the person with claim on the monster dies or gets charmed.

Example: Whenever you see Cep-Kamuy ready Charmga, simply have your healer cast Flash or Dia on it so that they have claim on the monster. Then, when the melees are charmed, Cep will never go Yellow.

TL;DR, Suck Less.

[Leonlionheart]

Protip for those who have multiple relics and still don't know how the FFXI claim system works:

Only One Person Ever Has Claim On Any Single Monster At Any Given Time.

Not an alliance. Not a party. One person. The last person to act on the monster has claim to the monster. If the last person to act on the monster dies, then the mob goes unclaimed until someone else acts on it. It takes a single action to regain claim when the mob already has hate on you. It takes two consecutive actions to take claim when the monster does not have hate on you, eg when an outside player attempts to claim the monster.

Players in the original party are at a distinct advantage in keeping claim over their monster. Any educated player is more than capable of keeping claim over monsters even if people get charmed or killed. You simply have to know what preventative measures to take if the person with claim on the monster dies or gets charmed.

Example: Whenever you see Cep-Kamuy ready Charmga, simply have your healer cast Flash or Dia on it so that they have claim on the monster. Then, when the melees are charmed, Cep will never go Yellow.

TL;DR, Suck Less.

I don't see how you could keep the social point of FFXI (being that nothing is truly instanced) while having a different system.

This system actually puts some PvPvE into FFXI, which I personally enjoy as a form of competition.

I mean its already fairly easy to hold a mob in Abyssea indefinitely without any chance of losing the target just by zombying if you time things correctly.

[Sama]

Happens, but 2/3 times we get them back.


This is very strange to me, during the 'unclaimed' phase, the NM will remain unclaimed even you lay your voke on it first. So at that very seconds, there are 5-6 vokes going off and also flash/stun whatever, you will never know whether you can get it back.

This is similar when a mob aggro and someone else try to take that mob. You both (not in the same party) can still hit it, but KI-popped NM are not free! Or at least until the party gave up and admit that they suck please take it free gift.

It does not make sense to me that why the general claim/unclaim rules are being apply to KI-popped NMs.

[Korpg]

You must never have been to Asura then have you?

/slowclap

Way to go. Good for you.

I said Futchy, as in himself, by himself, for himself.

Old endgame shells would try to steal your NM even if you didn't wipe, but that didn't count because usually about 75-90% of your people were dead or weakened when the mob goes yellow. But by then, you are usually beyond any reasonable recovery and should, as Eeek says, suck less.

Futchy would make his events around other's farming sessions, and try to steal their NMs. I know, he did that to my old linkshell several times if we are poping sky/sea gods, or doing something other than battlefields, limbus, dynamis (although he did jump a zone once or twice a year from us) and other events he can't "steal" our NM.

Other shells did not do that. Only him, while he was on Asura at least. And I heard he did that a couple times on Rag too.

[Leonlionheart]

This is very strange to me, during the 'unclaimed' phase, the NM will remain unclaimed even you lay your voke on it first. So at that very seconds, there are 5-6 vokes going off and also flash/stun whatever, you will never know whether you can get it back.

This is similar when a mob aggro and someone else try to take that mob. You both (not in the same party) can still hit it, but KI-popped NM are not free! Or at least until the party gave up and admit that they suck please take it free gift.

As in when they wipe to a similar KI-spawned NM.

It's not like anyone really takes 1 set of KI's to a NM anyway, unless there is no competition and you can just head on over to the time-spawn KI NM (like Tunga or Amun) and claim whenever you want.

But if you really want to steal a mob instantly, put a Provoke macro and a Chi Blast macro next to eachother and spam them when you see a yellow name. You won't lose it most of the time on mnk (Dia/Flash, Jump/High Jump, any combination of somewhat ranged JA/Spells will work)

[Leonlionheart]

/slowclap

Way to go. Good for you.

I said Futchy, as in himself, by himself, for himself.

Old endgame shells would try to steal your NM even if you didn't wipe, but that didn't count because usually about 75-90% of your people were dead or weakened when the mob goes yellow. But by then, you are usually beyond any reasonable recovery and should, as Eeek says, suck less.

Futchy would make his events around other's farming sessions, and try to steal their NMs. I know, he did that to my old linkshell several times if we are poping sky/sea gods, or doing something other than battlefields, limbus, dynamis (although he did jump a zone once or twice a year from us) and other events he can't "steal" our NM.

Other shells did not do that. Only him, while he was on Asura at least. And I heard he did that a couple times on Rag too.

So then you've never been to Asura?

No one does events around stealing mobs, but they certainly do it without remorse when a mob's name goes yellow.

[Korpg]

So then you've never been to Asura?

No one does events around stealing mobs, but they certainly do it without remorse when a mob's name goes yellow.

What about you, you never been on Asura either?

I was talking about old school system, not current one. Of course nobody would do that, that would be a major waste of time. What I did state was before the cap increase, and when Futchy was on Asura. Since he is currently not on Asura, and I was talking about stuff that had some merit prior to Abyssea, I figured you would put two and two together. Guess I overestimated you. Sorry, won't happen again.

[Sama]

Example: Whenever you see Cep-Kamuy ready Charmga, simply have your healer cast Flash or Dia on it so that they have claim on the monster. Then, when the melees are charmed, Cep will never go Yellow.

TL;DR, Suck Less.

Greatguardian you are right and I believe there are 10 thousand ways to do it also. Just take yours for example, your whm flash, he dies, then mob goes yellow and all the sudden someone took it, what would you do? You can buy pop item from AH for Cep-Kamuy that's no problem go ahead and take it, but for some other NM you needs lots time and manpower to get KIs.

Just like my previous post, the NM should at least remain claimed for a short period of time. The charming one is something else, tho.

[Greatguardian]

Greatguardian you are right and I believe there are 10 thousand ways to do it also. Just take yours for example, your whm flash, he dies, then mob goes yellow and all the sudden someone took it, what would you do? You can buy pop item from AH for Cep-Kamuy that's no problem go ahead and take it, but for some other NM you needs lots time and manpower to get KIs.

Just like my previous post, the NM should at least remain claimed for a short period of time. The charming one is something else, tho.

Brain fart, I meant Cirein-Croin. Cep doesn't charmga.

But if a WHM flashes and then dies, that's their own fault. WHMs are sturdier than melees anyways, and practically invincible in Abyssea. That's not the point of course, the point being that when the last person to act on the mob dies that the mob goes unclaimed. However, this is incredibly easy to avoid if people aren't being stupid.

And as I mentioned in the same post, the original party has a 2:1 advantage on re-claiming the monster as long as they are paying as much attention as the "stealing" party. No one should ever be anything less than alert when a body drops while fighting an NM anyways. Losing claim to inattentiveness is perfectly fair, and can happen to either side.

[blowfin]

Brain fart, I meant Cirein-Croin. Cep doesn't charmga.

You're lucky Khajit is your friend, or he'd postulate that you'd never done Abyssea before.

[Henihhi]

I am curious. What NM exactly takes a lot of manpower to get KIs from? Or hours to get a KI for that matter?

[Khajit]

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]

Clearly it means I am friends with every single non-idiot that plays this game whether or not I have ever interacted with them.
It is also clear that Rl friends that play on the same server as me have much less knowledge as to whom I even know exists than you.

PS: your friendship request is denied.

There actually anything even left to say on this topic that isn't a rehash of old info?



I am curious. What NM exactly takes a lot of manpower to get KIs from? Or hours to get a KI for that matter?

The only 2 possible mobs i can think of is that annoying ironclad in ulegrand if it isn't killed asap and the chariot with discoid but those aren't even an issue of time as much as manpower if you have improper jobs.

[Leonlionheart]

What about you, you never been on Asura either?

I was talking about old school system, not current one. Of course nobody would do that, that would be a major waste of time. What I did state was before the cap increase, and when Futchy was on Asura. Since he is currently not on Asura, and I was talking about stuff that had some merit prior to Abyssea, I figured you would put two and two together. Guess I overestimated you. Sorry, won't happen again.

You know what they say about people who just assume.

I was on Pandemonium forced onto Asura, and didn't play the endgame scene on Asura either so it's not like I had prior knowledge of the situation.

My point was that whole groups still /follow you around when you are fighting almost anything. Some servers it happens and you gotta live with it, some servers there's a 'honor code.'

[Korpg]

You know what they say about people who just assume.

I was on Pandemonium forced onto Asura, and didn't play the endgame scene on Asura either so it's not like I had prior knowledge of the situation.

My point was that whole groups still /follow you around when you are fighting almost anything. Some servers it happens and you gotta live with it, some servers there's a 'honor code.'

Wait, I'm confused.

You state that you know what went on prior to everything, then you admit that you don't. And you admit that people don't follow others around, but you just said here that people sometimes do?

What is your angle anyway?

[Leonlionheart]

Wait, I'm confused.

You state that you know what went on prior to everything, then you admit that you don't. And you admit that people don't follow others around, but you just said here that people sometimes do?

What is your angle anyway?

Maybe you have me confused with someone else... I knew it (NM stealing) has always happened, but I was never a part of it before Abyssea, on Asura anyway.

I sarcastically asked if you have ever been to Asura because NM stealing and /follow is so rampant on that server, while you were saying that only this "Futchy" did it. I doubt I would admit that people don't follow others around, because I take part in it on Asura in certain situations, and have had it happen to me often.

My "angle" is that I don't want it to change because it actually brings a reason to not suck and zombie everything to death.

[Korpg]

I sarcastically asked if you have ever been to Asura because NM stealing and /follow is so rampant on that server, while you were saying that only this "Futchy" did it. I doubt I would admit that people don't follow others around, because I take part in it on Asura in certain situations, and have had it happen to me often.


If you mean when people hang around after you are fighting a NM, and trying to steal your claim if it goes yellow, I think that happens everywhere, especially if that other group is going to fight the same mob you are currently fighting now.

What Futchy did was intentionally MPK entire shells just to steal their NM. He would have his entire shell in the middle of the fight area just to lag out people, and make it hard for the WHMs to cure the tank. He would also have his BRDs continue to cast songs just to make people get red dots. Which worked half the time. Which people GM him for, but they never do anything to him or his shell.

There is a difference between the two. I doubt that people actually /follow you to another pop. I think that is just your paranoia in action there.

[Swords]

The claim system is surely so deeply embedded in the game's code that it cannot be changed without drastic and unintended effects throughout the rest of the game.

Actually, that's probably easier to fix than one would think. SE used object oriented programming when developing this game meaning that the math variables and everything that configures hate and enmity is likely set off in it's own seperate file. Proving that SE had done this, changing the math that would configure hate should'nt be too hard. Even if it was something like, changing it to where the mob's hate will not drop below a certain level no matter how little hate is being generated, as long as some action or move is performed within 15seconds by someone on the mobs hate list (excluding death which still erases hate). While maybe not a total fix it would keep mobs from going unclaimed right away when using a hate erase move followed or proceeded by some form of potent paralyze, stun, or petrification.

[Sesh]

Maybe this was said on one of the previous pages but I didn't really bother to read through them. XD If a ZNM goes unclaimed and claimed by another outside of your pt if you go within a certain range of that ZNM it will turn red and become your NM again. (This happened 3x in a row with cheese hoarder one particular day) It was pretty awesome and I don't see why that would be a bad system to put in place for other such pop NMs. The coding for it is already there it seems like it would be a simple adjustment in a version update.

[svengalis]

This thread only involved with KI-poping NM.

My thread is talking about the same thing. You do realize sobek requires 3 ki to farm to pop him right? And it can take longer then a rani ki farm.

[svengalis]

T
1. Losing claim for whatever reason happens to us all. Like Eeek said, take it like a man.

2. If you repeatedly keep losing claim because you die or otherwise screw up - seriously, suck less.

3. If there really is a glitch that makes mobs randomly go unclaimed for no reason at all, it can't be happening very often because otherwise there would be 4237647625 forum members SCREAMING about it on this forum.

There's two threads with over 60 post each about the same situation. I think this qualifies.

[Eeek]

T

There's two threads with over 60 post each about the same situation. I think this qualifies.

Nah, apparently there are just that many uninformed players that post on these boards.

Players that wipe too often, it seems.

[Tamoa]

T

There's two threads with over 60 post each about the same situation. I think this qualifies.

There are two threads made by 2 different people basically whining about losing claim on NMs, and a handful of people in both threads agreeing with them. It's not like there are 60+ replies to both threads made by people who all have experienced a mob going unclaimed for no reason.

[wish12oz]

What about me taking 30 minutes to defeat? Because that is about on average the amount of time it takes me to kill a mob as SMN in A-Altep.
Either way, by forcing a 10 minute time limit, you just limit different procs
For those of us who don't have all that, 10 minutes can be a stretch.
Soloists, almost impossible.

None of this is acceptable to me, you could invite a friend and do it in less then 30 on something other then smn, and actually get procs.
If 10 min isn't enough time to get the procs you want and kill it, it will force you to get better.
It will eliminate soloists

Battlefield status and a 10 minute timer would be an amazing thing to add now that I think about it more. It would eliminate so many problems, like noobs wiping/losing claim and whining about it, and eliminate slow peoples. I'm all for it, but only if it's 10 minutes or less.

[RaenRyong]

Unfortunately SE has always catered to the lowest of the lowest common denominators with 60 min rage timer on Fafnir etc, so I wouldn't hold my breath for anything below 30 minutes.

[Korpg]

None of this is acceptable to me, you could invite a friend and do it in less then 30 on something other then smn, and actually get procs.
If 10 min isn't enough time to get the procs you want and kill it, it will force you to get better.
It will eliminate soloists

Battlefield status and a 10 minute timer would be an amazing thing to add now that I think about it more. It would eliminate so many problems, like noobs wiping/losing claim and whining about it, and eliminate slow peoples. I'm all for it, but only if it's 10 minutes or less.

Not all my friends can be online at the same times as me. Isn't that a little selfish that you don't want me to be able to solo anything during a time where the mob is free and nobody is killing/camping it?

You honestly think that every soloist out there runs around and finds the mob you wish to kill, and start killing it 1 minute before you get there?

Besides, what if I want just the armor/weapon, and kill it during blunt time? I can get most of the procs as SMN during that time, so your reasoning of "actually get procs" doesn't apply there. Like Orison Earring. I can pop the NM just at the start of blunt time, proc blue if possible, and kill as quick as I can. I have been able to solo a lot of the gear I want from this method. Some of my KIs for harder to kill or +2 items NMs I would ask my friends to help me kill.

This 10 minute limitation is too short imo. 30 minutes seems to be SE's time of choice (BCNMs, Fay weapons, etc). That seems to be more reasonable.

[svengalis]

Nah, apparently there are just that many uninformed players that post on these boards.

Players that wipe too often, it seems.

It has nothing to do with wiping I see you have not been paying attention.

[svengalis]

There are two threads made by 2 different people basically whining about losing claim on NMs, and a handful of people in both threads agreeing with them. It's not like there are 60+ replies to both threads made by people who all have experienced a mob going unclaimed for no reason.

And there is less then a handful disagreeing with them that there is no problem. It does happen and it shouldn't plain and simple.

[Swords]

Not all my friends can be online at the same times as me. Isn't that a little selfish that you don't want me to be able to solo anything during a time where the mob is free and nobody is killing/camping it?

You honestly think that every soloist out there runs around and finds the mob you wish to kill, and start killing it 1 minute before you get there?

Besides, what if I want just the armor/weapon, and kill it during blunt time? I can get most of the procs as SMN during that time, so your reasoning of "actually get procs" doesn't apply there. Like Orison Earring. I can pop the NM just at the start of blunt time, proc blue if possible, and kill as quick as I can. I have been able to solo a lot of the gear I want from this method. Some of my KIs for harder to kill or +2 items NMs I would ask my friends to help me kill.

This 10 minute limitation is too short imo. 30 minutes seems to be SE's time of choice (BCNMs, Fay weapons, etc). That seems to be more reasonable.

Not to mention there are times it can take longer than 10 minutes to proc. due to various reasons and complications that can occur.

You run into another problem with such a short timer as well, being not everyone is fully decked out with the best equpment, a emp/relic weapon, and the experience killing certain monsters, everyone will not be on the same level nor will perform at the same level. Which means

1. Your either forced to invite more people to kill things quickly, which likely increases competition for the items you or your friends are after after, ninja lotters, inter alliance drama, ect.

2. You risk further alienating alternative non-popular jobs more than they already are, in order to optimize setups for fights to go in your favor.

3. You destory any chance for solo jobs to do anything worthwhile, when it's well known jobs like BST are not really invited for anything that's killed quickly.

4. You would more likely have a small group of people following anyone thats shouting for pickup groups in jeuno, trying to steal your mob perchance it goes unclaimed for going over the time limit.

5. And this is a big one. It would almost defeat the purpose of fighting anything that has high hp without brewing. I'd despise being forced to full alliance zerg or brew anything that has more than 50k hp, especially when I do not like exping/cruor farming continueously for extended periods of time.

[Lyndonn]

dont Disengage the mob as a melee it can cause the mob to go yellow

[sruon]

I know a simple fix, don't let it go unclaimed

[Starcade]

I know a simple fix, don't let it go unclaimed

I know an even simpler one: Taking all the asinine players who like to compromise the enjoyment of legitimate players out of FFXI.

Attitudes like yours and "too many uninformed players wiping too much" on the last page are not becoming of you.

[Seriha]

I'm doubting the claim system is so deeply embedded that tweaks are impossible, too. At its simplest, mobs have states where we can act them. Let's call 0 idle/yellow, 1 claimed to your party, 2 claimed to your alliance, and 3 claimed to another group. As long as the state is 0, 1, or 2, we can act on it. And while I do believe the one person per mob claim rule should remain, which catches Charm up in a loophole as an offensive 'claiming' action against another mob, other circumstances where mobs go yellow despite not being idle shouldn't be happening. Doesn't matter if you think who it happens to sucks, was failing, or whatever justification you might use to feel okay about taking their mob. Yes, waiting sucks, but that's more of a problem with mob availability than any given group's skill set. So really, things should get more ??? pops or have lowered cooldown timers. VNMs are still a mess, and as a point of contention, skew people toward malicious behavior because we all hate wasting our time getting nothing.

[sruon]

I know an even simpler one: Taking all the asinine players who like to compromise the enjoyment of legitimate players out of FFXI.

Attitudes like yours and "too many uninformed players wiping too much" on the last page are not becoming of you.

itt: claim mechanics require information

[Alhanelem]

You spent hours to get KI; popped the NM, KI is lost, but during the fight the NM went unexpectedly unclaimed for whatever reasons and all the sudden some greedy thief steals it.If you wipe, then the fight is lost. If it goes unclaimed, then no one has hate on it and anyone else's claim is legitimate. GMs have upheld this countless times. Should those people really let the mob despawn when you have no chance of killing it? Then the pop has TRULY gone to waste.

[Aaralyn]

Yeah, it sucks. Yes, you now wasted your time farming ki's. Yes, you should have been more careful. Yeah, taking an nm you worked for won't earn said person a "good person of the week award".

Farm more ki's and hope it goes smoother. If it's the wasting time part that you dont like, hate to bring it to you, but thats what an mmo is. Shrug it off and be happy that you get to have 15 more minutes of fun with random strangers.

[wish12oz]

Not all my friends can be online at the same times as me. Isn't that a little selfish that you don't want me to be able to solo anything during a time where the mob is free and nobody is killing/camping it?

A good melee and a mage can kill just about anything in 10 minutes inside abyssea, your argument of not having friends doesn't hold any merit against this. Even Pchan has 1 friend.


You honestly think that every soloist out there runs around and finds the mob you wish to kill, and start killing it 1 minute before you get there?

Yes.
Bad groups are everywhere too.


This 10 minute limitation is too short imo. 30 minutes seems to be SE's time of choice (BCNMs, Fay weapons, etc). That seems to be more reasonable.

It is much more likely they will add some huge time that is not not required if they do this, but that is not what I think is a good idea. I'm all for making people be better and play smarter.

[Aaralyn]

Pretty sure pchans friend isn't at beck and call, just as I'm sure korpg's dont center their play time or real life around him.

Suck it up and wait for the person to either kill it, it kill them, or for it to go unclaimed. If they claim again faster than you, learn to claim faster. It's not that hard.

[Runespider]

Ultimately it makes no difference if someone gets your mob or it despawns, at least someone got some good out of the work you were unable to finish. You gain nothing if it depops or if someone else gets the kill so why change it.

[Karbuncle]

Mob's don't "Randomly" go white. Either you weren't paying attention or someone in your party lied to you. I know it sucks to lose a pop, and trust me i hate vultures/leeches as much as the next person, But its simple to keep a mob claimed.

If i die when I'm tanking an NM, The first thing my friends know to do is DoT/Hit/Chi-blast/Voke/some action on the mob so it does not go White. This is something every group should do. If the main tank dies, Someone act on the NM because he was likely the last person with hate. Its because frankly, if people are watching you fight, its not to watch you win, its hoping you lose. Its a sick world, but we wont change that with 1 thread. We just need to take preventative actions.


Using simple actions, taking precautions, and paying attention when you fight can prevent mishaps, But mishaps still happen, but there will always be a reason for it, even if you can't think of one, mobs do not simply go white 'randomly'.

Also, on Wiping to a mob... If you fully wipe you can expect a group to take the NM. I personally will not claim an NM until its White and Idle, If i see Reraise III from Apoc? Sorry you're too late. I'll kill it and give you the drops if you're not a dick. (more times than not, They're dicks though) Its understandable, They just wiped to a mob most people can Duo, So they're probably upset.

Either way, when you realize you're wiping to the point half your group is more concerned with running in circles away from the NM rather than claiming it to keep it red, the fight is over, expect someone to claim it. I won't say its "right" or what have you, even though personally i believe if a group is truly wiped/wiping the mob is free game.

Now, If you're all still alive and fighting, and it accidently goes White for some reason (Disengaging, Tank die, etc) I let it be, Its a mistake/mishap that happens, It can be prevented, but sometimes people slip up. If I'm waiting to pop something i let them fight it (usually farm TE in the mean time).

To avoid further Rambling I'll try to stop here. Add any points i missed to the next response.

[Korpg]

A good melee and a mage can kill just about anything in 10 minutes inside abyssea, your argument of not having friends doesn't hold any merit against this. Even Pchan has 1 friend.

I didn't say I don't have any friends, I said that they are not all online at the same times I am. Its like a hit/miss. Sometimes I'm online and so are they, other times we just missed each other.



Yes.
Bad groups are everywhere too.

So follow them.

Odds are, they will wipe and you have a free NM, maybe with yellow/blue procs if you claim fast enough



It is much more likely they will add some huge time that is not not required if they do this, but that is not what I think is a good idea. I'm all for making people be better and play smarter.

So am I, but forcing others to do it this way only limits the amount of jobs that could do what you are requesting.

Pretty soon you will have nothing but NINs and WHMs on every server. Then where do you go from there?

[Greatguardian]

People still identify themselves with a single job? I'm not a NIN, I just have NIN 90. They are two different things, and represent a difference in the attitudes of various sides of the playerbase.

People who only identify themselves with Job A, or Job B, are always going to be more likely to feel left out in one form of content or another, because the entire game revolves around people being able to switch to any of the 20 jobs as the situation dictates. Sure, it's silly to expect every player to have 10+ jobs, but, at the same time, FFXI is most definitely not built to cater to people with only one job. (For the record, I only have 7 90's but they fill pretty much every conceivable role, so I'm able to do just about anything)

We, as players, are expected to have at least some sort of variety in our game repertoire. NIN is solid in Abyssea, but was low-mid tier in a lot of 75-esque content. RDM was the most efficient healing job in the game in some 75-esque content, but it sorely lacks that ability in Abyssea. Different events are most efficiently done with different job combinations. Smart players are able to adapt to these different situations and use whatever job is best suited for the task at hand. It is only the stubborn player who refuses to budge and tries to shove a square peg into a round hole.

[Swords]

Just as an offhanded thought though, SE could just make it where the drops fall to the original group that had claim on the monster like they do with abyssites, atmas, and throphys as long as the mob doesn't go idle. As ubsurd as it might sound it would prevent random peeps from just claiming a mob and killing it when it goes yellow for whatever reason.

[Greatguardian]

Because people don't totally already claim KI mobs, then intentionally wipe solo so that really stupid parties can claim it before it idles and give the guy a free KI.

No, thanks.

[Yarly]

Actually SE released a fix for this about 8-9 years ago. Here's how you do it.

1. Pop or claim the NM
2. Don't mass wipe
3. Kill the NM.

Done! You heard it here first on the OFFICIAL FFXI FORUMS!

[Korpg]

Actually SE released a fix for this about 8-9 years ago. Here's how you do it.

1. Pop or claim the NM
2. Don't mass wipe
3. Kill the NM.

Done! You heard it here first on the OFFICIAL FFXI FORUMS!

Orly?

Anything else you can tell us, o wise sage of FFXI?

[Zarabi]

I find the amount of "just suck less" posts and related pretty disturbing. I would never take someones NM, popped or time spawned if they died. Only if the entire alliance decides to just give up and HP, i'd attack it.

Guess nobody is nice anymore.

[Greatguardian]

I find the amount of "just suck less" posts and related pretty disturbing. I would never take someones NM, popped or time spawned if they died. Only if the entire alliance decides to just give up and HP, i'd attack it.

Guess nobody is nice anymore.

That depends on your definition of nice, really.

My general policy is always to wait for a full wipe assuming I've had no contact, or polite contact with the group that's fighting. However, if the group that's fighting and half-wiping to the NM has a moron or two that likes to run their mouth in /say or /tell, then I'll be significantly less inclined to do them any favors.

Likewise, if I take an NM off a failing group either by request of their party leader or due to a wipe and they aren't complete assbags to me for it, I'll often invite them to lot on half the drops (yes, half. If you want full drops, don't wipe). If the group refuses to lose gracefully and decides to spam me with hate tells/says/shouts, there's no way in hell I'm inviting them for anything. What's worst of all is when people start demanding that you invite them for drops right after chewing you out. Do they really expect someone to give them free stuff after being screamed at?

With that said, I still feel like people are basically being sore losers in this thread. If you let people die, fail to take the proper actions to maintain your claim, or otherwise wipe, expect to lose your monster. It should not come as a huge surprise to anyone when other people take claim when you fail. When that happens, and it's your own fault, accept the loss gracefully and move on. Chalk it up as a learning experience and take steps to prevent a loss the next time.

The only legitimate complaint that could be had here would be players intentionally curebombing or MPK'ing with other mobs/NMs in order to steal an NM, and that is GM'able.

[Leonlionheart]

That depends on your definition of nice, really.

My general policy is always to wait for a full wipe assuming I've had no contact, or polite contact with the group that's fighting. However, if the group that's fighting and half-wiping to the NM has a moron or two that likes to run their mouth in /say or /tell, then I'll be significantly less inclined to do them any favors.

Likewise, if I take an NM off a failing group either by request of their party leader or due to a wipe and they aren't complete assbags to me for it, I'll often invite them to lot on half the drops (yes, half. If you want full drops, don't wipe). If the group refuses to lose gracefully and decides to spam me with hate tells/says/shouts, there's no way in hell I'm inviting them for anything. What's worst of all is when people start demanding that you invite them for drops right after chewing you out. Do they really expect someone to give them free stuff after being screamed at?

With that said, I still feel like people are basically being sore losers in this thread. If you let people die, fail to take the proper actions to maintain your claim, or otherwise wipe, expect to lose your monster. It should not come as a huge surprise to anyone when other people take claim when you fail. When that happens, and it's your own fault, accept the loss gracefully and move on. Chalk it up as a learning experience and take steps to prevent a loss the next time.

The only legitimate complaint that could be had here would be players intentionally curebombing or MPK'ing with other mobs/NMs in order to steal an NM, and that is GM'able.

This pretty much completely sums up my attitude toward the matter.

Unfortunately most people love to run their mouths off, and I enjoy making a fool out of them.

Also if you are using a strategy that causes the fight to take longer than 'acceptable' then I would probably steal at the first sight of yellow name.

[Sama]

The only legitimate complaint that could be had here would be players intentionally curebombing or MPK'ing with other mobs/NMs in order to steal an NM, and that is GM'able.

When mob goes yellow and someone claimed it that's not a violation of SE and because of that, some people are intentionally doing this to others when the alliance is half dead or just taking any chances that they can to get your NM/drop.

Not everyone is as logical and kindly as you, this is a MMO and SE is making it cheap.

[Greatguardian]

Like I already said, if your alliance is half dead and fails to maintain claim over your monster then it is your own loss. It's no one else's fault if you die. When that happens, take the loss gracefully and move on.

Personally, I always expect to lose my NM if I ever let it go white. Not because people are bad and mean and vultures, but because losing claim constitutes a failure to some degree on my part or the part of my group. There are consequences for mistakes. All there is to do is to learn from it and not make the same mistake the next time.

[Crocker]

All I'm hearing is everyone should flash provoke stun or something and suck less but by saying you have to do extra stuff just to keep a monster claimed means there is a problem with how a monster stays claimed, yes we know how to work around this flaw but it is a flaw that needs to be fixed! Many times ive seen NMs go unclaimed when everyone is and has done something to it.

Doesn't matter if somehow you noob it up real bad and everyone gets charmed it shouldn't go unclaimed but it does.

SE wont reply to stuff like this they only reply to dumb threads like dynamis maps...and remove 5 min wait on Kindred Seals. Fix the real problems and stop saying it would take too much man power ect.... What are we paying you for? Get more man power!

[Greatguardian]

You don't have to do "Extra" stuff to keep an NM claimed unless you're being clumsy or bad about fighting it in the first place. There is zero problem with the claim system. One person has a claim on the mob at any given time. It is absolute folly, borderline incompetence, for someone to intentionally take the last action against a mob and then immediately die. There is also a fair window of time between when the person with claim dies and when the mob goes unclaimed or idle, in which time someone should be acting on the mob in some fashion regardless.

There is no problem with how an NM stays claimed. Monsters don't randomly go yellow. The claim system is 100% predictable, and simple enough for any group to work with if even one person bothers to read how it works. "Fixing" this would only give people a safety net wherein they are allowed to make more mistakes before losing their monster, while at the same time encouraging Zombie tactics and allowing groups which are too weak for an NM to hold it indefinitely.

[Catsby]

If you are allowed to double your stats and still manage to suck out of control you bet your ass I'm taking your mobs.

[svengalis]

I find the amount of "just suck less" posts and related pretty disturbing. I would never take someones NM, popped or time spawned if they died. Only if the entire alliance decides to just give up and HP, i'd attack it.

Guess nobody is nice anymore.

It is alot of American players. The Japanese usually don't do this. They usually wait, ask how many pops you got left or they even come back. I have had so many pops stolen or people go out of turn and don't reply to you by American players. I don't know why you guys are so rude. Everything in Abyssea can be obtained within time. Most drops are pretty common you guys don't have to be so disrespectful to other players. We are human beings just like you treat us with some respect.

[Greatguardian]

It is alot of American players. The Japanese usually don't do this. They usually wait, ask how many pops you got left or they even come back. I have had so many pops stolen or people go out of turn and don't reply to you by American players. I don't know why you guys are so rude. Everything in Abyssea can be obtained within time. Most drops are pretty common you guys don't have to be so disrespectful to other players. We are human beings just like you treat us with some respect.

Weeaboo goggles. People are people no matter what language they speak or what country they're from. You'll find just as many horror stories about JP players as you will about NA players, and as many nice JPs as you would nice NAs.

[svengalis]

Weeaboo goggles. People are people no matter what language they speak or what country they're from. You'll find just as many horror stories about JP players as you will about NA players, and as many nice JPs as you would nice NAs.

I don't though. I play most of the day and this is what I run into everyday.

[Greatguardian]

I don't though. I play most of the day and this is what I run into everyday.

And I could tell you that I run into reasonable NA but complete asshole JP players all the time too, and I wouldn't be lying. In my personal experience, I've been treated like trash by the JP endgame base pretty much constantly, while the NA endgame base on my server is pretty chill.

I'm just not ignorant enough to apply my personal experiences to each race on FFXI. I know damn well there are plenty of chill, cooperative JP players. And I know damn well there are plenty of asshole NA players. Just because I see more dickish JP and nice NA in my experiences doesn't make it the norm.

[Tamoa]

It is alot of American players. The Japanese usually don't do this. They usually wait, ask how many pops you got left or they even come back. I have had so many pops stolen or people go out of turn and don't reply to you by American players. I don't know why you guys are so rude. Everything in Abyssea can be obtained within time. Most drops are pretty common you guys don't have to be so disrespectful to other players. We are human beings just like you treat us with some respect.

Aren't you on Asura? Just asking because I have run into numerous JP groups doing the same NM(s) as my group, and they've been just as likely to ignore any requests for taking turns as any NA group I've encountered. Hell, a couple of days ago I decided to do my good deed of the day and help a stranger get Siege Bow from Chukwa, sure enough there were 2 other groups camping it, a JP group got claim and promptly said no to giving away the bow if it dropped.



I have had so many pops stolen

If this really is true then it sorta speaks for itself, sorry.

[Seriha]

If the claim system was fine, we wouldn't even be having this discussion about lost/stolen mobs. The whole "suck less" movement is a good example of the poison of MMO communities. Accident? Some group not as skilled? Who cares, they deserve what they get, right? Doesn't matter that their collective man hours are wasted or maybe that they're just trying to figure out an encounter for the first time (Hint: Not everyone reads wikis or seeks out fan sites).

The fact mobs can go yellow when a party/alliance has hate on it is a problem. The only time this should happen is on a complete wipe or possibly a new command like CFH where the party/alliance leader forfeits claim. If you wanna bitch other people taking too long, noobing it up, or whatever, that's more of a problem with mob availability and how timed spawns are bad while all popped mobs need multiple instances so everyone can get in, do their thing, then get out. So, not only do you fix the problem, but the temptations to create it.

[Greatguardian]

We're not having this discussion because the claim system is flawed.

We are having this discussion solely because people are sore losers when they wipe. We aren't talking about NMs randomly coming unclaimed during a fight. We are talking about Zombie tactics, 10/18 of the alliance is eating dirt while the NM chases a black mage, "I died but I got back up and someone took it" claim loss.

You could say "Suck less". Or you could just say "Lose gracefully". When you're half dead, beaten and battered, barely keeping anyone alive while you run an NM around, you've pretty much lost. If you keep the claim, good for you. If you lose the claim, better luck next time. Talking about poison and greed is completely uncalled for.

[Seriha]

As if people who've taken claims were never being sore losers in their own right.

Done right, how any other group performs, successful or not, wouldn't matter to anyone else. To argue that everything is a-ok now is not some mantle of skill or rite of passage, it's just a window for vultures to swoop in and grief people because they've convinced themselves they deserve the mob for whatever reason.

While the devs will never be able to stop people from being dicks to each other, they can minimize those chances.

[Meyi]

Hm, I don't know. I've had monsters randomly turn yellow while in the middle of fighting them. I didn't disengage, switch monsters, or die. Perhaps it's just a random glitch? I've never had a monster stolen while it happened.

Ah, but I do agree that if a group dies, well, just accept the fact that you wiped and allow the other groups who are standing to finish it off for you.

[svengalis]

Aren't you on Asura? Just asking because I have run into numerous JP groups doing the same NM(s) as my group, and they've been just as likely to ignore any requests for taking turns as any NA group I've encountered. Hell, a couple of days ago I decided to do my good deed of the day and help a stranger get Siege Bow from Chukwa, sure enough there were 2 other groups camping it, a JP group got claim and promptly said no to giving away the bow if it dropped.




If this really is true then it sorta speaks for itself, sorry.

No I am not. I am on Phoenix.

[svengalis]

We're not having this discussion because the claim system is flawed.

We are having this discussion solely because people are sore losers when they wipe. We aren't talking about NMs randomly coming unclaimed during a fight. We are talking about Zombie tactics, 10/18 of the alliance is eating dirt while the NM chases a black mage, "I died but I got back up and someone took it" claim loss.

You could say "Suck less". Or you could just say "Lose gracefully". When you're half dead, beaten and battered, barely keeping anyone alive while you run an NM around, you've pretty much lost. If you keep the claim, good for you. If you lose the claim, better luck next time. Talking about poison and greed is completely uncalled for.

Okay guys, we had a warrior and blue mage attacking Gukumatz. The blue mage looses connection and Gukumatz goes white WHILE the warrior is still attacking it. BTW Gukumatz was facing the WAR when he went white.

If you guys are going to sit and here and tell me there is not a problem then I don't know what else to say. This is an issue and it needs to be fixed.

This just happened to me last night. I don't even know why I am arguing with you over this. There is a flaw in the game.

[Rie]

Like I said in your other thread, if the BLU was the last person to swing at Gukumatz before he fully DC'd, this will cause the mob to go white. Your WAR should have pulled it away from the BLU to prevent it. I don't see anyone else having this much trouble keeping mobs claimed, maybe you should pay closer attention to what you're doing.

[Tamoa]

Okay guys, we had a warrior and blue mage attacking Gukumatz. The blue mage looses connection and Gukumatz goes white WHILE the warrior is still attacking it. BTW Gukumatz was facing the WAR when he went white.

If you guys are going to sit and here and tell me there is not a problem then I don't know what else to say. This is an issue and it needs to be fixed.

This just happened to me last night. I don't even know why I am arguing with you over this. There is a flaw in the game.


It's no different from when I did HNMs back @ 75 cap, sometimes person in the alliance was asked to go from one party to another, that person disbanded and all of a sudden everyone else in the alliance was unable to attack until the person that disbanded got invited again. Seen that happen so many times I have lost count. And the NM wasn't attacking the person that disbanded either.

I've seen what you are describing too, in most cases the mob will go purple for a brief second as the person d/cs, and then white. So yes, what Rie said - your war should have pulled Gukumatz away from the person that was d/cing so that person couldn't keep attacking Gukumatz.

And my bad, something you said in another thread made it sound like you're on Asura.

[Swords]

Wouldn't have done him a whole lot of good because people were probably just sitting there on his butt spamming chi blast, voke, charm, or whatever their choice of JA/spells they prefer to use leaving him little to no room for oppertunity to reclaim. And you can't really say it was his fault for it going yellow either, there could have been any number of reasons it went yellow, he couldn't have seen it coming or was not able to do something right away like voke being down.

I'm not saying everyone uses asshole tactics at every turn, but it's pretty foolish to say were not all guilty of doing it one time or another even if it's retaliation for an assholeish tactic done to you. Fact of the matter is however, a grand majority of people have as a whole have disreguarded those basic principles of courteousy and manners. Now the reasons vary why, you do it because others do it to you, you do it because you know the other groups around you do it, you do it because shell mates do it, you do it in retaliation for whatever reason (good or bad), or you just follow along with others when/if they claim even if you didn't even take part in claiming it. It pretty much comes down too this, people will grief and bitch no matter what glitch or tactic is used, no matter how virtus or self righteous you or your shell might be, and no matter if your gracious enough to return the drops or are greedier than a hungry snorlax, it just takes one person to be an asshat and it all goes downhill from there. While im all for fixing minor bugs that shouldn't be there, the person themselves need to accept that they've lost the mob, and either attempt to reclaim or join the claiming alliance for the remainder of the fight or drops.

[Tamoa]

Wouldn't have done him a whole lot of good because people were probably just sitting there on his butt spamming chi blast, voke, charm, or whatever their choice of JA/spells they prefer to use leaving him little to no room for oppertunity to reclaim. And you can't really say it was his fault for it going yellow either, there could have been any number of reasons it went yellow, he couldn't have seen it coming or was not able to do something right away like voke being down.


In a situation like Svengalis describes in his last post, all the war had to do was pull the NM away from the person d/cing to stop that person from being the last person to act on the NM, and Gukumatz wouldn't have gone unclaimed.

When someone d/cs they get the red dot next to their name, they don't just suddenly vanish. There is plenty of time for other party members to act on the NM and to pull the NM out of range from the person d/cing.

[Swords]

Being Svengalis didn't post the specifics, I half-assumed the BLU had hate (since they're notorious for high spike damage) which probably kept him from pulling it away. Even if Sven did have hate there is still a small window of oppertunity for it to happen depending on his reaction and connection speed or if the mob trailed back to the BLU from bouncing hate, but I'd probably agree thats a rather small or neglible variable.

[Tamoa]

Being Svengalis didn't post the specifics, I half-assumed the BLU had hate (since they're notorious for high spike damage) which probably kept him from pulling it away. Even if Sven did have hate there is still a small window of oppertunity for it to happen depending on his reaction and connection speed or if the mob trailed back to the BLU from bouncing hate, but I'd probably agree thats a rather small or neglible variable.

He clearly says the NM was facing the war (he doesn't say if he is the war in this case, but it doesn't sound like he is), from that I would assume the war had hate. And someone who is d/cing can't cast magic or do weaponskills, they can only auto-attack, so if you're telling me a war can't pull hate off a blu to move the NM away in the time it takes the blu to actually d/c - well then that war sucks beyond belief.

[blowfin]

We are having this discussion solely because people are sore losers when they wipe. We aren't talking about NMs randomly coming unclaimed during a fight. We are talking about Zombie tactics, 10/18 of the alliance is eating dirt while the NM chases a black mage, "I died but I got back up and someone took it" claim loss.

You could say "Suck less". Or you could just say "Lose gracefully". When you're half dead, beaten and battered, barely keeping anyone alive while you run an NM around, you've pretty much lost. If you keep the claim, good for you. If you lose the claim, better luck next time. Talking about poison and greed is completely uncalled for.

Not really, a lot of people here are just firing off justifications for their actions as if the mere action of justifying it makes everything ok. You've at least tempered your reasoning somewhat and laid out some boundaries and limits for when you might consider doing it. I think a number of people that have posted in here are probably a lot more mercenary than yourself. It opens the door for the "you suck, i'm taking your mob" attitude a lot more, which is indeed quite poisonous. Whether you like it or not a community that probably hasn't seen that kind of mindset before is probably being exposed to it for the first time.

Also, the notion that people don't have a right to be upset is a bit silly to be perfectly honest. Not everyone playing this game has the (good or bad) experience of many years in a cutthroat endgame environment, not everyone cares for the competition that brought. The notion of profiting off someone else's work is pretty vile to a large number of the playerbase. For the record, there is no other way of looking at it, if you end up with someone else's popped KI mob, you profit from their work, period. I think that's a large part of the problem, on one side we have "hey this is justified, because I clearly know better than group X and my experience has led me to believe this is the right thing to do" while the group losing the mob is probably in some form or another going to see you as vultures. Being surprised that people arc up at you sounds like a classic case of denial by the way. Don't fool yourself into thinking there's not an element of jerk in your actions when you take something. Regardless of what stage the group's at.

Edit: Really though, is this even a problem anymore with the extra pop points added? Would've thought there's enough spawns to go around now to not have groups waiting behind you to pop.

[Sama]

It is alot of American players. The Japanese usually don't do this. They usually wait, ask how many pops you got left or they even come back. I have had so many pops stolen or people go out of turn and don't reply to you by American players. I don't know why you guys are so rude. Everything in Abyssea can be obtained within time. Most drops are pretty common you guys don't have to be so disrespectful to other players. We are human beings just like you treat us with some respect.

Very true, especially those they think they are good.

[Mrbeansman]

5 pages Really? If you're having trouble with pops getting stolen you should look into not sucking simple as that.

[Sama]

You could say "Suck less". Or you could just say "Lose gracefully". When you're half dead, beaten and battered, barely keeping anyone alive while you run an NM around, you've pretty much lost. If you keep the claim, good for you. If you lose the claim, better luck next time. Talking about poison and greed is completely uncalled for.

Regardless people kill with bio or you can one-shot the NM that's just the one of the ways to play.

Tell me how you know being suck to you means those should just stay away from NMs and don't do anything in game? Or they do it, they die, get up, die again, while you voke the mob is right because 'being suck' is not right to you? And how you know they will not succeed at the end after 20-30 deaths and 200 bios?

At the critical moment during the NM fight, having people like you around is bad luck, without is lucky. So for those of you suckers please be aware of because there are people believe they are so above the others.

[Korpg]

Placing the blame on American players only is bias and untrue.

Even saying "majority" still implies "more than average" which is also very untrue.

Its a mixture of people who do it. You only see one type because that one type are generally online when you are online. I'm very sure that Chinese, Australian, French, British, and Latin American players have also "stole" mobs from other players. Placing the blame on the "majority" of American implies that all American players are bad players.

[blowfin]

Its a mixture of people who do it. You only see one type because that one type are generally online when you are online. I'm very sure that Chinese, Australian, French, British, and Latin American players have also "stole" mobs from other players. Placing the blame on the "majority" of American implies that all American players are bad players.

No, it implies there are more asshats from america, on average.

[Eeek]

Regardless people kill with bio or you can one-shot the NM that's just the one of the ways to play.

Tell me how you know being suck to you means those should just stay away from NMs and don't do anything in game? Or they do it, they die, get up, die again, while you voke the mob is right because 'being suck' is not right to you? And how you know they will not succeed at the end after 20-30 deaths and 200 bios?

At the critical moment during the NM fight, having people like you around is bad luck, without is lucky. So for those of you suckers please be aware of because there are people believe they are so above the others.

No one here is arguing against the right of players, whether good or bad, to play and enjoy game content. You're badly misinterpreting the discussion if you think this is the case.

One beautiful thing about Abyssea is that it's remarkably accessible for everyone. That means that lots of bad players and pickup groups engage in Abyssea content everyday in close proximity to groups consisting of average and good players. The groups consisting of poor players and pickups fail on a regular basis, and these failures result in free NMs for nearby groups. That's the way it is, and in case you have not been paying attention, that's the way it's been for years.

Have you been paying attention to this conversation? The vast majority of posters here will wait for groups to completely wipe before claiming and killing an NM. No, not a brief moment where an NM goes yellow for whatever reason. A full f**king wipe.

Your groups would have nothing to worry about 99% of the time if you'd simply just kill the damn NM without any real problems or significant number of deaths. If your definition of 'critical moment' is 'die and reraise repeatedly (thanks to Apoc) while attempting to kill the NM with DoTs' then yeah, the vast majority of players will take an NM in that situation and put it out of its misery.

Stop failing, and outsiders won't be able to claim 'your' NMs.

[Eeek]

No, it implies there are more asshats from america, on average.

No, it implies that anyone who believes that all Americans are jerks and all JPs are saints need to turn off the computer, take down their anime posters, step outside their house, and join the real f**king world.

[blowfin]

No, it implies that anyone who believes that all Americans are jerks and all JPs are saints need to turn off the computer, take down their anime posters, step outside their house, and join the real f**king world.

I don't think that's what was said, but don't let me or rationality stop you from being extremely creative and taking personal swipes at people.

[Greatguardian]

No, it implies that anyone who believes that all Americans are jerks and all JPs are saints need to turn off the computer, take down their anime posters, step outside their house, and join the real f**king world.

This ^. JP players, EU players, NA players, it makes no difference at all. You may only see more NA asshats because you actually speak the language. If you could read moonspeak you'd see just as much asshattery there too.

Personally, I'm able to cooperate a lot more readily with NA groups specifically because we can speak the same language. The auto-translate function is nice, but a good deal of people (from every country) refuse to use it or respond to it. It is also impossible to expand the auto-translate dictionary right now so any phrases that are not present will not be added later. When people don't speak the same language, they are less likely to put forth the effort to try and negotiate with one another.

Likewise, full-of-crap generalizations like the ones demonstrated on the last page also work against us. I've been told by bilingual JP players I know that, often times, they expect NA players to be assholes to them so they won't even bother attempting to negotiate and will go straight to competing. Likewise, many NA players I know on my server believe that our JP population are assholes and will thus assume that they will have no interest in negotiating and cooperating.

People are people. Internet culture is internet culture no matter where you're from. I'm not being P-C, I'm being real. To honestly think that more Americans are assholes, or more JPs are "nice", is just deluded. Though, to be fair, a low sample size probably doesn't help people's perceptions. NAs get a lot more exposure to the NA playerbase, and vice versa. Familiarity breeds contempt. That's pretty much all it comes down to.

[svengalis]

Placing the blame on American players only is bias and untrue.

Even saying "majority" still implies "more than average" which is also very untrue.

Its a mixture of people who do it. You only see one type because that one type are generally online when you are online. I'm very sure that Chinese, Australian, French, British, and Latin American players have also "stole" mobs from other players. Placing the blame on the "majority" of American implies that all American players are bad players.

No it is not. I play during both peek times so I know what I am talking about.

[Greatguardian]

The plural of anecdote is not data.

[svengalis]

No, it implies that anyone who believes that all Americans are jerks and all JPs are saints need to turn off the computer, take down their anime posters, step outside their house, and join the real f**king world.

I didn't say all I said a lot. Actually I don't think I have ever seen a Japanese person do it. Not saying they don't do it just that I have never seen it.

[blowfin]

No it is not. I play during both peek times so I know what I am talking about.

Same boat here, 6 years of playing in JP prime and 2 years of playing in NA prime I can conclusively say the NA population is prone to more asshattery. At least on my server, mileage may vary.

Going as far to say that certain nationalities are more prone to vulture your NM's though... well that might be a bit of a stretch.


The plural of anecdote is not data.

Witty comebacks don't change people's experiences.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Your experience doesn't change it from being an anecdote.

[Greatguardian]

And just because it is witty does not make it less true.

Like I said previously, on my server I've had significantly more poor experiences with the JP playerbase than NA. I'm simply not ignorant enough to draw conclusions about a 500,000 player population based on my personal experiences.

[blowfin]

Your experience doesn't change it from being an anecdote.

Sorry I should have rephrased that. 6 years of playing in JP prime and all of about 2 weeks of playing in NA prime made it pretty clear.

As I said though, maybe it's based on server, but the NA population on Shivzander certainly don't do any favors to dispel the notion that american's are loud, pushy and aggressive.

[Korpg]

No it is not. I play during both peek times so I know what I am talking about.

Do you also speak multiple languages?

Or actually been around Asian or European people, I mean really been around them, like in their countries for extended periods of time?

Because I have. I have lived in Britain for 2 years, Germany for 8 months, China for 7 months, and my most recent experience, Japan for 9 months. And the rest of the time was in America, mainly Texas.

I think I am more qualified than you to say the following: There are just as many assholes around the world than there are in one specific place. Don't limit one specific place because you can speak the language of that one specific place.

[Mrbeansman]

LOL at jps not being dickwads. Those same JPs who's culture has historically revolved around them being xenophobs. I'm sure you're all to familiar with the JP ONRY displayed in numerous jp seacoms. Fun fact most of those seacoms aren't because they had a bad experience with a NA its because they just plain don't want to play with foreigners.

[Mrbeansman]

And before someone says it yes I know I was being a tad bit unfair to the current circumstances.

[Eeek]

I never knew it was so hard for Americans to think of the Japanese as simply 'people'. But no, they're either mythological saints or decrepit monsters.

[Korpg]

I never knew it was so hard for Americans to think of the Japanese as simply 'people'. But no, they're either mythological saints or decrepit monsters.

Isn't that how people generally react to those they don't understand anyway?

[Mrbeansman]

I just want to rebuttal my previous statement by mentioning that I'm I huge weeaboo who loves the Japanese.

[svengalis]

Do you also speak multiple languages?

Or actually been around Asian or European people, I mean really been around them, like in their countries for extended periods of time?

Because I have. I have lived in Britain for 2 years, Germany for 8 months, China for 7 months, and my most recent experience, Japan for 9 months. And the rest of the time was in America, mainly Texas.

I think I am more qualified than you to say the following: There are just as many assholes around the world than there are in one specific place. Don't limit one specific place because you can speak the language of that one specific place.

What does this have to do with the players I have come acrosss in this game?

Yes I am very awhare if the Japanese only party thing.

[Korpg]

What does this have to do with the players I have come acrosss in this game?

Yes I am very awhare if the Japanese only party thing.

You are judging players based on language barriers. And your "personal experience" does not make fact.

You forget, as mentioned above, that every player is human, regardless of race or ethnicity. Being from America does not mean there is a 75~% chance that player is an asshole, as you have stated.

Singling out one group of people does not make everyone in that same ethnicity the same.

[Qeepel]

Hi guys, please keep the comments on topic and avoid inflammatory comments. Such comments are not necessary towards the discussion and can result in disciplinary action to your account. Thank you.