ATTN: Developers - A Polite Request regarding Mythic Weapons

[nitsuj]

I know you have acknowledged the difficulty of completing this quest now that the players have moved past ToAU and into WoTG and Abyssea and have expressed a desire to make the quest more approachable.

I only ask that someone updates us with some information on a timeline for this, since many of us are sitting on a lot of alexandrite, gil, and working on Assault re-clears.

I've worked very hard over the last 4 years to gather my Alexandrite and gil, and I would hate to spend it all to get 20k/30k, only a week later to see a surprise update that would have allowed me to spend the same amount to get 30k/30k.

Side note - If you do lower the cost of alexandrite, and someone has already handed in MORE than that will they be able to get it back? You don't want to hand in 210,000,000 gil worth of items only to find out you didn't need to and lost it forever.

Thank you for your time. People on the quest for this long are your very dedicated player base and it would mean a lot if you would keep us in the loop with what to do with all our hard work. Thanks.

[Akujima]

Thank you for your time. People on the quest for this long are your very dedicated player base and it would mean a lot if you would keep us in the loop with what to do with all our hard work. Thanks.


That's one thing people seem to skip over, when a discussion about Relic/Mythic occurs. They seem to forget that those who put in that much effort and time to obtaining Relic/Mythic, were in fact the most dedicated players.

[nitsuj]

That's one thing people seem to skip over, when a discussion about Relic/Mythic occurs. They seem to forget that those who put in that much effort and time to obtaining Relic/Mythic, were in fact the most dedicated players.

It's disheartening sometimes. I've graduated college, changed jobs twice, and moved to three different areas of the country, all while working towards one weapon, and it's still unobtainable with all my high levels, my gil, my crafting and my friends, without just farming alexandrite 7 days a week myself.

[Leonlionheart]

Oh god, there is so much they could do with the ordeal to make mythics. There is so much they could do with ToAU in general, yet they seem to have no intentions but to completely ignore everything Aht Urgan.

[Sama]

People on the quest for this long are your very dedicated player base and it would mean a lot if you would keep us in the loop with what to do with all our hard work. Thanks.

I don't know what dedication means for this game every since aby came out...

You spent 4 years on 1 item, I admire you, but I can tell you now relic and mythic are garbage ATM. Save your money on a KC or something.

[nitsuj]

I don't know what dedication means for this game every since aby came out...

You spent 4 years on 1 item, I admire you, but I can tell you now relic and mythic are garbage ATM. Save your money on a KC or something.

Working on Nirvana for SMN, still unmatched :/

[Panthera]

Having finally beaten the ToAU Kings, I wouldn't mind at least a time-line myself. Moreover, specific info on how the quest would be changed would be epic of Galka proportions.

[Soundwave]

I've read the OP's post on BG because I remember your sig =D I've read about your progress on BG and now a days people are getting no where... I to feel your pain, I'm still working on my Nirvana as well.

[nitsuj]

Thanks :) Hopefully we'll get some word!

[Kiba]

I don't know what dedication means for this game every since aby came out...

You spent 4 years on 1 item, I admire you, but I can tell you now relic and mythic are garbage ATM. Save your money on a KC or something.
My exact same sentiments our thread on adjustments to relics and mythics got totally ignored for more than 2 weeks. We asked nicely for an ETA of implementation and was trying to be patient with this getting no response. On the other hand when others sulk or complain about something small they get answered. I'm not sure if I want to go that far and create a new thread for attention....

[Sayelle]

I don't know what dedication means for this game every since aby came out...

You spent 4 years on 1 item, I admire you, but I can tell you now relic and mythic are garbage ATM. Save your money on a KC or something.

Theoretically a Mythic Drg is the strongest DD in the game in terms of pure damage output, so I'd hardly call that garbage.

[Sama]

Theoretically a Mythic Drg is the strongest DD in the game in terms of pure damage output, so I'd hardly call that garbage.

I'm glad you still have hope with relic/mythic but I'm afraid this is not a good statement and here is an example for your comparison:

Ryunohige (Lv 90)

DMG: 125 Delay: 492
Augments "Jump" IV
"Drakesbane"
Aftermath (Incl. Wyvern):
Increases Acc./Atk.
Occasionally attacks twice

V.S.

Vougier's Contus (Lv89)

DMG: 122 Delay: 492 Attack +10
"Conserve TP" +6
Jump: Enhances "Double Attack" effect

Tell me if the mythic is still worth the time, money and the n00b's lol...

[Greatguardian]

That's not what you said.

Is the best weapon in the game worth all that crap? Subjective.

Is it garbage? No. It's the best weapon in the game.

[Sayelle]

It most certainly is if you want to be a top tier Drg, Vougier's Contus isn't even in the same Time Zone when it comes to offensive capability despite having similar Damage Ratings. I agree with Nitsuj that the difficulty of obtaining mythic weapons needs to be adjusted because there are some that are most certainly worth obtaining even now.

[Aliekber]

Saying Vougier's Contus is comparable to a 90 Ryunohige is like saying a Dissector is comparable to a Ridill.

[Glamdring]

yep! arguably mythic and or relic are still the ultimate for most jobs (although I'd rather have the 3 song harp than a Gjallerhorn). Are they they ultimate by as wide a margin? probably not. Are they worth obtaining? depends on the player quite frankly. Do you have the time, commitment AND THE OTHER BODIES willing to get this for you? Is your "to-do" list in the game sufficiently empty?

Empy trial weaps were-I think-a way for SE to make up for a mistake they made in the original design of the game. SE does not acknowledge that they make mistakes as a rule. However, even the most oblivious designer had to look at the requirements and say that requiring the entire effort of full alliances every 3 days without fail for almost 2 years simply so 1 player could walk away with an exceptional weapon could be used as a diagnostic criteria for insanity. Hence, trial weapons. They still required grinding, but outside of the NM ones most could be completed in a month or less by the average player, if they were disciplined about it. They approach-but do not surpass-the quality of the comparable level relic/mythic-for the most part, some of the relic/mythic was never that exceptional.

Just as there always were other weaps that approached-but didn't surpass-relic/mythic when the game was capped at 75. There's a reason so few Guttlers were ever made, Juggernaut got the job done just fine, and it was also a pain to get. They did say that mythic would be made more atainable, like relic supposedly is (although the consensus I've seen is that making relic obtainable was another SE fail, it ain't more obtainable). So it's up to you.

[Leonlionheart]

I'm glad you still have hope with relic/mythic but I'm afraid this is not a good statement and here is an example for your comparison:

Ryunohige (Lv 90)

DMG: 125 Delay: 492
Augments "Jump" IV
"Drakesbane"
Aftermath (Incl. Wyvern):
Increases Acc./Atk.
Occasionally attacks twice

V.S.

Vougier's Contus (Lv89)

DMG: 122 Delay: 492 Attack +10
"Conserve TP" +6
Jump: Enhances "Double Attack" effect

Tell me if the mythic is still worth the time, money and the n00b's lol...

Seriously?

Ryunohige is so far ahead of contus it's unbelievable.

As far as most powerful weapons go, let me show you the top 3:

Ukonvasara > Ryunohige > Verethragna

And there's math to support that too. Ryunohige might even pull ahead now that the crit dmg cap is over 50%.

Also, Yagrush is still king for WHMs when paired with surya's. Nirvana is still the king of all SMN's dreams too. Relics however, SUCK.

[Rezeak]

Honestly i'm kinda agianst the relic/mythic content but it's there and i don't think peoples effort should of been cheapened now it's there

For alexandrite it should be made easy to obtain Alexandrite now less people do it.

Honestly I really wish SE removed/reduced to 3k the Alexandrite protion of the the mythic when they added it and just made it 1 mythic per char so that they reflected a players favirote job/specialization but thats just me.

[Atomic_Skull]

yep! arguably mythic and or relic are still the ultimate for most jobs


You mean for a *few* jobs. Emps are the ultimate for most jobs.

[Glamdring]

You mean for a *few* jobs. Emps are the ultimate for most jobs.

no, I actually meant "most". Emps are good, potentially very good. But the level 90 mythics trump most of the level 90 empys in my opinion; there are simply so many boosts stacked on most of them that even the 90 empys can't compete, although they can approach them.

The reason Empys get the nod is because they are easier to obtain, not that they are better. The beef of relic/mythic holders is that alot of work was done to upgrade it to the lvl 75 augments. Now they have to work hard again to get it to 80, 85, and 90 and once they do get to the current top tier the superiority of their weapon is not as wide compared to some of the 90 empy weaps. They still rock for the most part.

the level 90 relic are also excellent pieces for the most part, but the general consensus on most of them was that the fully upgraded mythic was better for most jobs (and the only option for some) for that quality. The obvious exception is Gjallerhorn, boosting a bard's songs is more important than boosting our combat skills, etc.

[Soundwave]

My exact same sentiments our thread on adjustments to relics and mythics got totally ignored for more than 2 weeks. We asked nicely for an ETA of implementation and was trying to be patient with this getting no response. On the other hand when others sulk or complain about something small they get answered. I'm not sure if I want to go that far and create a new thread for attention....

So true, I really wonder how they chose to reply to which thread etc.

[Cahlum]

I agree, we really need a timeline of when the changes will be implemented and just what changes as 30 k alexandrite is far too high a requirement compared to relics and emp weapons

[wish12oz]

But the level 90 mythics trump most of the level 90 empys in my opinion;


Math does not have an opinion, either it's the best or it's not the best or it's the same.

The one thing I find so annoying about all these threads, is that there are a few mythics that are better then empyreans, and there's a few relics that are better then empyreans. But people seem to completely ignore all of this, and whine that empyreans are amazing. Ukon, Vert, Almace, Gandiva and Kannagi are the only really good empyreans. The rest are not all that amazing. Want to know why? Because these have crit hit WS's, which are exceedingly good inside abyssea, which is all anyone really does. Mandau is better then Twash for THF, Amano and Masa are almost exactly the same comparing the level 90 versions, Apoc is better then the scythe, Yagrush is better then the club from a magey standpoint, Relic club is best from a damage dealing standpoint, Ryuhinge is better then the emp polearm, and as the OP said, Nirvana is the best thing around for SMN. I could go on but I think I made my point.

Beyond that if you look at the relics for the really damaging empyreans, they all have uses outside of just winning parses, which is all the 5 empyreans do. With the only exception being Kannagi, ninja mythic and relic are just flat out junk, especially when compared to Kannagi. Burt has 16% PDT and lets you reach 66% PDT on PLD, Excal lets you do lots of damage on mobs with huge amounts of defense or way above you level. Yoichi lets you not pull hate. Spharai and Bravura make you take less damage while tanking. Relics, Mythics and Empyreans are fine, as far as actually using them goes, some very minor changes made to make some of the useless ones decent for something or other would be ok. Methods to obtain them could use some tweaking though. But Relics and Mythics do not need this huge buff some of people think they do, especially since it's old content, and old content needs to be phased out, not remain the best thing ever forever.

You people complaining that your relic is bad now and empyreans are so easy, should just go get the empyrean because it's so easy and stop complaining about it already.

[Kiba]

Excal lets you do lots of damage on mobs with huge amounts of defense or way above you level. Yoichi lets you not pull hate. Spharai and Bravura make you take less damage while tanking. Relics, Mythics and Empyreans are fine, as far as actually using them goes, some very minor changes made to make some of the useless ones decent for something or other would be ok. Methods to obtain them could use some tweaking though. But Relics and Mythics do not need this huge buff some of people think they do, especially since it's old content, and old content needs to be phased out, not remain the best thing ever forever.

You people complaining that your relic is bad now and empyreans are so easy, should just go get the empyrean because it's so easy and stop complaining about it already.
First of all if we were still in 2009 yes relics and mythics are not bad. But of course the game has changed. Empyrean weapons have stepped in and made what was considered unbalanced in the past acceptable now.

Excal has the random additional proc of 25% hp on current dmg but why rely on that when you can do a consistent spike damage CDC with Almace?

Yoichi as well as Annihilator used to be gasp surprise type of weapons because you can do so much damage without pulling hate. Now the damage is so insignificant when standing next to a Gandiva making it questionable why even bother?

Spharai and Bravura make you take less damage while tanking....what's so great when you can using Ochain for that purpose.

So the reality is the game has changed to where damage standards are different from what it was two years ago, which is the time relics and mythics were considered great. Now in 2011 we want relics and mythics to adapt to the new times and remain a respectable class of weapons. While you make a point that people with relics why not just get an empyrean and stop complaining, it does not justify the dissatisfaction of casting away a weapon they put a lot of time effort into and just accept reality. The relic and mythic weapon owners have spoke up and the development team responded in March:

We are aware that there currently exists a major difference between the strength of Empyrean weapons and that of Relic and Mythic weapons.

In regards to that balance issue, we are planning to make adjustments. We plan to create a higher level of balance by strengthening both Relic and Mythic weapons instead of simply weakening Empyrean weapons.
confirming the concern addressed IS valid so at this point complaints due to fact it has been 2 months since this last response is reasonable.

[wish12oz]

First of all if we were still in 2009 yes relics and mythics are not bad. But of course the game has changed. Empyrean weapons have stepped in and made what was considered unbalanced in the past acceptable now.

Only 5 empyreans outparse their relic and mythic counterparts.
O N LY F I V E.
That was the whole point of what I wrote.
And most relics/mythics were not the huge damage increase you all seem to think they were.


Excal has the random additional proc of 25% hp on current dmg but why rely on that when you can do a consistent spike damage CDC with Almace?

Because on very high defense/level mobs you won't do that kind of damage with Almace. Learn game mechanics please.


Yoichi as well as Annihilator used to be gasp surprise type of weapons because you can do so much damage without pulling hate. Now the damage is so insignificant when standing next to a Gandiva making it questionable why even bother?

The damage is only terrible by comparison inside abyssea, which is over now. Outside abyssea in Voidwatch and other new events, all that hate free damage is significantly better then Gandiva simply because you won't have to constantly reposition mobs.


Spharai and Bravura make you take less damage while tanking....what's so great when you can using Ochain for that purpose.

What is suddenly wrong with WAR and MNK tanks?


So the reality is the game has changed to where damage standards are different from what it was two years ago, which is the time relics and mythics were considered great. Now in 2011 we want relics and mythics to adapt to the new times and remain a respectable class of weapons. While you make a point that people with relics why not just get an empyrean and stop complaining, it does not justify the dissatisfaction of casting away a weapon they put a lot of time effort into and just accept reality. The relic and mythic weapon owners have spoke up and the development team responded in March:

confirming the concern addressed IS valid so at this point complaints due to fact it has been 2 months since this last response is reasonable.

The concern is valid on 5 weapons, in that they significantly do more damage then the others. The same can be said of Apoc vs mythic/empyrean scythe, Relic hammer vs emp/mythic, Mythic polearm vs emp/relic, etc. SE also thinks relics will become more common with the dynamis update, we see how that is going. They also thought adding bottlenecks to empyreans was a good idea, then changed their mind, etc, etc, etc, etc.

And by your standards, they should make everything awesome even though there's new content. I want my Perdu volge, ridill, etc, etc, etc to be amazing again, cause the relic people are getting updated, so why not my stuff I put all that time and effort into getting? See the problem here? You should be happy you got magian trials and just be content already.

[Kiba]

Only 5 empyreans outparse their relic and mythic counterparts.
O N LY F I V E.
That was the whole point of what I wrote.
And most relics/mythics were not the huge damage increase you all seem to think they were.
I apologize for giving the impression that I do not see this, but I think this is a common trait existent within all three categories of weapons relic, mythic, empyrean that there will be a top 5 that stand out.


Because on very high defense/level mobs you won't do that kind of damage with Almace. Learn game mechanics please.
Thank you for your suggestion on my education, but I'd really like to see that in true reality of equally geared players side by side one with level 90 excal another level 90 almace on a high defense/level mob and the difference would be noticable.


The damage is only terrible by comparison inside abyssea, which is over now. Outside abyssea in Voidwatch and other new events, all that hate free damage is significantly better then Gandiva simply because you won't have to constantly reposition mobs.
Fact of matter is regardless of where the weapons perform there should not be this much of difference. I have yet to see Gandiva outside Abyssea, but have witness consistent output from Ukon, the difference just makes Bravura and Conqueror pale.


What is suddenly wrong with WAR and MNK tanks?
nothing I was just bring a fact if the joy is over taking less damage and tanking Ochain PLD's are a more effective choice.


The concern is valid on 5 weapons, in that they significantly do more damage then the others. The same can be said of Apoc vs mythic/empyrean scythe, Relic hammer vs emp/mythic, Mythic polearm vs emp/relic, etc. SE also thinks relics will become more common with the dynamis update, we see how that is going. They also thought adding bottlenecks to empyreans was a good idea, then changed their mind, etc, etc, etc, etc.
Problem about this is if focusing on what you are saying only those 5 weapons should be adjusted which I don't think is the common will of the playerbase. The will is to recognize such imbalances and place all 3 categories of weapons on a fine tuned balanced scale where for example" my weapon does not do this but I get this so I'm still happy.


And by your standards, they should make everything awesome even though there's new content. I want my Perdu volge, ridill, etc, etc, etc to be amazing again, cause the relic people are getting updated, so why not my stuff I put all that time and effort into getting? See the problem here? You should be happy you got magian trials and just be content already
Welcome to Trial of Magians, we are aware how you value your weapons and am introducing this system for you to further strengthen them.... coming soon to a theater near you ^^

Everyone has their view point on this and I respect yours. In honesty we can argue and debate all we want but the whole decision at the end comes to the development team's hands. You made your points and I made points, so I will stop here and focus on the main topic of kindly asking for a response. Thank you for the discussion.

[Glamdring]

there's also the fact that DPS is not the only thing relic/mythic offer. I like the kenkonken because of the overload reduction, in addition to all the other goodies as an example, Glallerhorn and Aegis don't even HAVE DPS, but they still have uses, aftermath effects on some of the Mythic WS are freaking sweet, too. This is not simply a straight DPS argument, it never has been.

The real question is is it worth all the effort to get those benefits? THAT is the part where it comes down to the individual player.

[wish12oz]

I apologize for giving the impression that I do not see this, but I think this is a common trait existent within all three categories of weapons relic, mythic, empyrean that there will be a top 5 that stand out.

Top 5 that stand out? ..............Yes, those 5 weapons stand out, and they are also the ONLY 5 empyreans that are better then their relic or mythic counterparts. Why do you fail to see this? Sometimes the relic is best, sometimes the Mythic is best, and in 5 cases, the empyrean is best if all you are looking at is DPS. The relics all still have perfectly good uses. Which is the original uses they had. Spharai was never a huge increase in damage over notrelich2hs at 75, neither was bravura, or yoichi, or kikoku or excalibur. They all serve the same purpose that they use to right now, except they are not the best weapon by 2% DPS over the next weapon down. For all your whining, all SE did was add 5 weapons that outperform their relic/mythic counterparts in DPS alone, and it's pathetic on your part to continue whining about it.


Thank you for your suggestion on my education, but I'd really like to see that in true reality of equally geared players side by side one with level 90 excal another level 90 almace on a high defense/level mob and the difference would be noticable.

That's easy enough, get someone with an almace, have them go fight hero's zones NMs without cruor buffs or atmas, and that will tell you how it would perform outside abyssea.



Fact of matter is regardless of where the weapons perform there should not be this much of difference. I have yet to see Gandiva outside Abyssea, but have witness consistent output from Ukon, the difference just makes Bravura and Conqueror pale.

Gandiva is terrible outside abyssea, because RNG is terrible. A friend of mine had Gandiva, he recently quit due to RL, but in einherjar, he would parse at about half the damage I was doing, which is about the same as a yoichi ranger would do.


nothing I was just bring a fact if the joy is over taking less damage and tanking Ochain PLD's are a more effective choice.

You heard it here first: Don't bother with melee tanks who can midigate damage, just use PLDs, and all you PLDs go get Ochain. Because it's completely acceptable to expect someone who has bravura or spharai to go exp pld then get ochain and whatever else just so they can tank. Do you see the problem here?


Problem about this is if focusing on what you are saying only those 5 weapons should be adjusted which I don't think is the common will of the playerbase. The will is to recognize such imbalances and place all 3 categories of weapons on a fine tuned balanced scale where for example" my weapon does not do this but I get this so I'm still happy.


The common will of the player base? The common people don't have relics and don't give 2 craps about them, and wouldn't care if they were deleted from the game entirely. And the weapons are already at that "fine tuned balanced scale," you just fail to see it. Ukon wins parses, Bravura lets you midigate damage and is second best. Same with H2H, Bow, and sword(except on hard mobs). You're asking for exactly what is in place right now. You can have DPS or damage mitigation and slightly less DPS. How is that not exactly what you were asking for?


Welcome to Trial of Magians, we are aware how you value your weapons and am introducing this system for you to further strengthen them.... coming soon to a theater near you ^^

I have yet to see trials for Ridill or Perdu Voulge, both of which BTW, required more effort then getting a relic.


Everyone has their view point on this and I respect yours. In honesty we can argue and debate all we want but the whole decision at the end comes to the development team's hands. You made your points and I made points, so I will stop here and focus on the main topic of kindly asking for a response. Thank you for the discussion.

You haven't made any valid or good points, just complained that your relic isn't the best thing since sliced bread anymore.

[nitsuj]

I appreciate the bumps guys, but this thread isn't a comparison of which is better relic/mythic/empyrean. There are tons of math threads out there to compare if you want.

This thread is only to ask the devs to be polite and give us some insight on what they're planning, because regardless of the arguments either way, some of us are still working on Mythic Weapons.

I'm working on Nirvana, if I didn't already say. You will not find any math to tell me it's not amazing, either :)

[Jamesruglia]

It's disheartening sometimes. I've graduated college, changed jobs twice, and moved to three different areas of the country, all while working towards one weapon, and it's still unobtainable with all my high levels, my gil, my crafting and my friends, without just farming alexandrite 7 days a week myself.

This. Dedicated is one thing, not having to live life is another. IN light of that, I'd say getting to have something of this magnitude earlier than everyone else is worth the added cost compared to what others pay later, if the cost is reduced. I've played since NA PC release and I've yet to come even a quarter way toward holding Excalibur.

[blowfin]

I have yet to see trials for Ridill or Perdu Voulge, both of which BTW, required more effort then getting a relic.

Id personally assume that a large amount of people put in very minimal effort to get the Voulgue actually. It didnt get released until quite late in the Assault picture, and if you played with any frequency you were 5 or maybe 10 assaults from ranking up and having it when the patch got released. For a lot of people it was probably purely incidental.

[Atomic_Skull]

wall-o-text


I'd wager that Caladbolg most certainly is good outside Abyssea.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3a8fNhA2Pw

It's merely average inside Abyssea but outside it becomes grossly overpowered specifically because it doesn't rely on critical hit atmas to be good. I've seen DRK/WARs (SAM isn't really that useful for DRK anymore after the last update) throwing out 2k+ Torcleavers regularly outside Abyssea.

Ukko's does 1500-2k outside Abyssea.

Apoc is better than Redemption but again, Caladbolg makes both of them garbage.

Almace is good outside Abyssea *if* you have a WS set. You can't just full time your turtle PLD gear like you can with lolatonement. Regardless PLD is the second most useless job in FFXI right now so which weapon is better for them is largely irrelevant because nobody should be bringing a PLD to anything anyway.

RNG sucks, period, it doesn't matter what they use. The job is so irrelevant in 2011 that they might as well just delete it at this point so Gandiva vs Yoichi is a pointless discussion.

And LOL at taking less damage when WHM exists. Only one thing matters in 2011 for heavy DD and that is how much damage you do.


EDIT: It is also suspected (but not proven yet) that Ukko's and Blade: Hi have a cRatio bonus like Y/G/K and Spinning Slash due to their consistent high damage on HNM.

[Sargent]

Like you, I was working on Nirvana, but kinda gave up. However, since I read on dev tracker somewhere that SE are going to reduce the difficulty in obtaining Relics and Mythics, I've restarted. Don't forget they added Cat's Eye in this update that was dat mined to suggest that it is in fact 30k Alexandrite, they may add that as a PW drop or something.
It would be nice for an actual announcement on it, however. Drites are one thing, but they really should increase the drop rate on T4 trophies too, especially considering the effort you have to put in to obtain a T4 pop.

[JiltedValkyrie]

Let ID Tags accumulate over time like traverser stones/voidstones and let us go into Salvage solo with quickly respawning mobs not unlike current Dynamis. Let every mob drop alexandrite instead of only gears. At least triple or quadruple the ichor output in Einhejar. Even with all of this, it would still take months to complete a mythic, so I don't see why not.

Some of us don't care about the stats so much as we like the look of a particular weapon. Well, I'm also a DD BRD, and Carnwenhan is so much nicer looking that that really ugly Twashtar. Also working on a Mandau simultaneously.

[nitsuj]

It was suggested on Bluegartr that Cat's Eye is just a mog bonanza prize, and the dats point towards handing it in completes the quest, but does not return any of your existing alexandrite :(

But again, some confirmation would be awesome.

[Bumbeen]

And by your standards, they should make everything awesome even though there's new content. I want my Perdu volge, ridill, etc, etc, etc to be amazing again, cause the relic people are getting updated, so why not my stuff I put all that time and effort into getting? See the problem here? You should be happy you got magian trials and just be content already.

a perdu voulge is not a relic

[Arciel]

I too would like to hear some response from the dev team on this matter.
At the moment I'm going for the exact same mythic as Nitsuj, but I'd wager I'm not as far along.

My qualms about mythic weapons is something that the dev team already seems familiar with, but I'd like to highlight them even further.

I get the feeling that the dev team wants to make Relic, Mythic and Empyrean weapons on-par options for top-tier weapons, which is why they all have Magian Trials to improve them past their original form. I like the notion of this, except that there is a severe imbalance between Relics, Mythics and Empyrean weapons - and this was present even before
Empyreans were introduced.

Let me do a comparison of the 3, with my opinion of a scale of 1-10, the required (cannot be substituted by doing other things) effort for Relic weapons and the Gil-value of costs involved are like this.

Relic Weapons, of the 3, are the easiest to obtain for anyone with a lot of gil. You basically accumulate enough gil to purchase Dynamis currency or farm it yourself - the option is readily available for players until you have enough to fund the relic. There are a total of 2 distinct NMs to kill (albeit repeated depending on drop rate) and they are not deemed hard anymore, especially with the changes to Dynamis. Some effort is required again after acquiring the 75 weapon to improve it through the trials.
Effort: 3/10 Cost: 8/10

Empyrean Weapons are currently the easiest to make, and the cheapest. You have to kill 3-8 of a number of NMs along the way before the real grind of obtaiin 50 items from 1 NM, then another 50, and then 75 from another NM. But these NMs are not hard - especially given our current player levels and Atma system, so the process is more of a slow grind than anything. That said, you could easily grind through 50 drops of the NM within a week with the help of some friends or help others who need the NM kill but not that specific drop.
Effort: 6/10 Cost 0/10

Mythic Weapons however are a torturous process for the patient. Firstly, you need to clear all Aht Urhgan missions, which is not hard if you like to do them already, climb to Floor 100 on Nyzul Isle and clear all 50 Assault missions before even being able to start the first real step towards getting a Mythic. From there, clearing every Salvage, Einherjar Odin, and the 3 Beastmen leaders. This process alone already requires more effort than a Relic already needs. And because of the nature of Assault missions and Nyzul Isle being based on tags, you will need to take a few months to get them all cleared.

If you can accomplish that, then the insanity begins. Redoing all 50 Assault missions, repeating Einherjar until you get 100,000 ichor, repeating Nyzul Isle until you get 150,000 tokens, and THEN obtaining 30,000 Alexandrite, which either requires repeating Salvage (which requires repeating Assault for points to enter Salvage) or buying it to save you the hassle. Either way, you're looking at months upon months of committed effort to events that need to be repeated, some of which require sizable groups to attempt.

Before Empyreans came out, I'd say I was willing to put up with it because the weapon was worth it, but when other players can get a weapon which is just as good, or even better by putting in so much less, I think it is a little unfair.

Anyway, theres still doing Zeni NMs for the Tier 4 NM trophies, which are still NOT 100%. Players barely have a reason to do this - and the effort put in is already this immense, but they have to go through yet another round of luck on drops. And once you have that, there is an easy BC to do, but if for whatever reason you fail (d/c maybe?) you will have to repeat this last step. BUT THATS NOT THE END, because there are magian trials now. What you will have at this point is only a weapon worthy at Lv75, not 90 or 99. The effort put in from this point is about the same as Relic weapons, but bear in mind we've already had to do so much more along the way before reaching this point.

Mythic Weapons
Effort: 10/10 Cost: 7/10

I know this may seem like a very long rant, but I would really love to hear the developers take on this - it may well determine if I will continue this arduous process to obtain a good weapon (by the way, as a Summoner, the Mythic weapon far surpasses Relic or Empyrean, so its not like I can just go for the easier alternative) or press on.

We've seen that you've already eased Relic weapons obtainment difficulty by changing Dynamis, but that must only be the start - the Mythics have yet to see changes that would lower their difficulty to a level comparable with Empyrean weapons.

I have some suggestions.

"Stage 1"
Captain Rank, Runic Key, Vigil Weapon - this does not need to change.

"Stage 2" - An Imperial Heist
Obtaining the 8 NM titles - I find this to still be a fair course to undertake

"Stage 3" - Duties, Tasks and Deeds
Balrahn's Eyepatch - 100,000 Therion Ichor
Wyrmseeker of Areuhat - 150,000 Nyzul Tokens
30,000 Alexandrite
Redoing all 50 Assault missions

This quest is the extreme one. Something needs to be done here to tone down the time / effort required, or the cost involved. I have 2 suggestions for this.

1) Make the quest require only 2 of the 4 paths to be undertaken. Effort put into any 2 of the 4 quests at its present state could be comparable to an Empyrean weapon right now. This also allows players to choose the path that they wish to undertake, to find one where the effort required suits their tastes.

2) Lower the overall requirements. I think it is unrealistic to expect you to scrap Alexandrite completely, but it feels very out of place considering there should be a balance of effort required to cost required - whereas this quest goes overboard on both counts. I would suggest lowering the amount of ichor required, lowering the number of tokens required, possibly lowering the number of assault logs required to be completed to just 1, and most importantly, lowering the alexandrite required to a mere fraction of its current amount.

"Stage 4" - Forging a New Myth
Tinnin's Fang, Tyger's Tail, Sarameya's Hide - this needs adjusting as well.

The Zeni NM system is not very popular anymore, so it is hard to get people to do this. One of the biggest things holding people back is the zeni point system, gained by trading soul plates to Sanraku, which once again, requires effort to do. IF you're able to clear the system, another obstacle blocks you, that being the droprate on these 3 items, so I see 2 adjustments that can be made here.

1 - lower the Zeni cost for purchasing triggers from Sanraku OR increasing the point value of soulplates traded to him

2 - raising trophy drops to 100% (this needs to be done)

Anything beyond this point may require effort but is nothing compared to what comes before, and by then you at least have a Lv75 Mythic weapon to use and show for it.

...so if you can please take the considerations of Mythic upgraders in mind, do give us an idea of what to expect in terms of bringing the difficulty of Mythics down to par with Empyrean weapons. Also, the last thing we'd want to do is put in unnecessary effort if you were going to fix something that would mean we would no longer need to invest the energy into it.

***
for the record I am currently on Duties, Tasks and Deeds and already obtained the Eyepatch and Book, but am still working on the other 2 paths.

[Camate]

Currently the development team is not looking at adjusting the amount of alexandrite needed, nor are they looking into increasing the methods by which alexandrite can be obtained. However, they will be making improvements and adjustments in order to rejuvenate salvage, assault, and other Treasures of Aht Urghan content.

[Leonlionheart]

Currently the development team is not looking at adjusting the amount of alexandrite needed, nor are they looking into increasing the methods by which alexandrite can be obtained. However, they will be making improvements and adjustments in order to rejuvenate salvage, assault, and other Treasures of Aht Urghan content.

Well this would indeed fix the problem to some extent, assuming salvage gear is on par/ better than AF3

@Atomic_Skull: IDK what Ukko WAR you're playing with, but I commonly get 3~3.8k outside with Ukko's. You just need to bump up dDEX and crit rate more to make sure you're critting, in which case blood rage and af3+2 feet will cause Ukko's to still rape every other WS outside, even though it always will because of WS frequency (assuming you have a BRD). Only way anyone else will beat WAR outside is caladbolg DRK w/o BRD using desperate blows, which will definitely out do WAR w/o marches.

[Arciel]

thank you. at least hearing something specific about one of the bigger issues with mythic weapons helps mythic upgraders to chart their plans

[Bumbeen]

Currently the development team is not looking at adjusting the amount of alexandrite needed, nor are they looking into increasing the methods by which alexandrite can be obtained. However, they will be making improvements and adjustments in order to rejuvenate salvage, assault, and other Treasures of Aht Urghan content.

Camate, is the same true for dynamis requirements? Are there also no plans to reduce the cost of relics in dynamis currency?

[blowfin]

Camate, is the same true for dynamis requirements? Are there also no plans to reduce the cost of relics in dynamis currency?

The plan for the new dyna was to increase the amount of currency in circulation to tackle the issue. Im not in a position to be commenting on whether thats having an effect yet though.

[Pharaun]

Currently the development team is not looking at adjusting the amount of alexandrite needed, nor are they looking into increasing the methods by which alexandrite can be obtained. However, they will be making improvements and adjustments in order to rejuvenate salvage, assault, and other Treasures of Aht Urghan content.

The dev team really should be looking into the entire mythic process though, the amount of effort required to get a mythic compared to a relic or emyrean is absolutely fucking rediculous...

[Bumbeen]

I hope they do not drop the currency requirements for relics. It would suck to finish a relic and then a week later they drop the currency requirements by 100M.

[Soundwave]

Thanks, and I would like a refund on my Alex please.

[Juilan]

Currently the development team is not looking at adjusting the amount of alexandrite needed, nor are they looking into increasing the methods by which alexandrite can be obtained. However, they will be making improvements and adjustments in order to rejuvenate salvage, assault, and other Treasures of Aht Urghan content.
if they add staggers im demanding credits until they just make it mnk and thf ws

[nitsuj]

Currently the development team is not looking at adjusting the amount of alexandrite needed, nor are they looking into increasing the methods by which alexandrite can be obtained. However, they will be making improvements and adjustments in order to rejuvenate salvage, assault, and other Treasures of Aht Urghan content.

Thanks so much! This is the kind of response I had hoped for. I will now move forward with my 30k goal any means necessary :)

[Nidhogg]

I think I speak for everyone when I say, Please do not add staggers to Salvage, it's fine the way it is in terms of drops, the amount of alexandrite is just low because of lost interest in the gear, I'm sure adding TotM paths to Salvage gear would rejuvenate interest if the rewards are worth pressuring .

[Leonlionheart]

I think I speak for everyone when I say, Please do not add staggers to Salvage, it's fine the way it is in terms of drops, the amount of alexandrite is just low because of lost interest in the gear, I'm sure adding TotM paths to Salvage gear would rejuvenate interest if the rewards are worth pressuring .

Agreed, I've had enough of being stuck on certain jobs to get something done.

Abyssea it's fine, Voidwatch brings it to another level and I can handle that, but having it everywhere is just silly beyond imagination.

[Atomic_Skull]

I think I speak for everyone when I say, Please do not add staggers to Salvage, it's fine the way it is in terms of drops, the amount of alexandrite is just low because of lost interest in the gear, I'm sure adding TotM paths to Salvage gear would rejuvenate interest if the rewards are worth pressuring .

No! Gods No!

PLEASE no more moogles firing their LAZOR at my items.


Add new mobs and NM's with conditional pops,or hard mode paths that drop additional items to upgrade the gear but for the love of Altana leave the frigging moogles out of it this time. Trading items to Ghanraam so he can have them sent of to be upgraded would work just fine.

[Coldbrand]

Yeah really, please for the love of god no more triggering.

[Huevriel]

Some friends and I have been working towards our mythics for a while now. Just completed Nyzul 100 (after literally waiting months for some friends to do it with us). Still First Lieutenant (repeating tons of assault missions to get new people up to ranks). I know I haven't even hit the brunt of it yet, but I LIKE the fact that mythics are ridiculously hard to obtain. It's gonna be really satisfying when I get it.

If there IS a change, I'd just like to see more Alexandrite drop per pouch. Good luck to all of you working towards your mythics! I'll get my Death Penalty some day.

[Kaych]

PLEASE no more moogles firing their LAZOR at my items.


I think SE stated somewhere that they will use trials til all items were updated ; ; Unfortunatly, I think this will be the case in Salvage also:/

[Ravenmore]

They most likly make it using synergy or how ever the hell you spell it.

[Cahlum]

I have no problem with them adding trials to the salvage stuff as will get more people doing salvage but please do not add a stagger system to salvage.

[Arciel]

I hope they implement the adjustments to Salvage and Assault soon...
would love to see how they make these events popular.

I think augmented Salvage gear might raise some interest in the event. It doesn't necessarily have to be by Trials because even Abjuration is done by Synergy.

[Rorald]

IMHO if you want anyone to bother you either need to dramaticlly improve the weapons themselves from what they are or the alexandrite needs to be dramaticlly lowered or the things might as well not be there cause nobody is going to waste time for them.

I keep hearing of adjustments to relics and mythic but i dont see any results and unless half of the relics and mythics are fundamentally changed in the mods and/or aftermath they are completly worthless in comparison of emperyeons which require very very little work in comparison to a mythic.

Abyssea and alot of the changes that came with it have been great but i see recent things SE has been doing as going back to the same old SE we used to know, make the changes we need.

[Bumbeen]

They need a healthy does of old school SE to keep from caving in to all the waaaaaaaaaaaa that gets posted here.

[Byrth]

Currently the development team is not looking at adjusting the amount of alexandrite needed, nor are they looking into increasing the methods by which alexandrite can be obtained. However, they will be making improvements and adjustments in order to rejuvenate salvage, assault, and other Treasures of Aht Urghan content.

This is insufficient, but thanks for being honest.

[Glamdring]

as long as that stupid !! proc thing is not used... !! is not an improvement... to anything! It is inserting a meaningless need to NOT do damage to something that is doing its best to eat your face. Add nms we need to kill, make it a 500 NQ mob kill thing, hell reverse course and have it be you have to be killed BY X mob 30 times, anything but that damn !! thing.

Marginalizing jobs is NOT the answer to increasing interest in the game. People LIKE playing ranger or whatever, that's why they chose to level it in the 1st place. Requiring the presence of a war so you can red!! 9 different weaps looking for a trigger doesn't help anyone, except war. Don't add Atmas to it, haven't you already done enough damage to pld and cor opportunities to play? Don't use something like cruor buffs/temps either, make the bonuses earned based on your play in Salvage or whatever. For the Zeni part, make it easier to accumulate the Zeni to get your pops.

If anything, increase the variety of opponents so that more playstyles-and thus jobs-are in the mix. If you add content that is ranged damage friendly and has decent rewards then every ranger and corsair that can't get a party now will be trying to get groups for this, as an example. Paladin still tanks quite well OUTSIDE THE ABYSSEA SYSTEM so it's simply a matter of getting people to think there is something worthy of doing out there to get them in the mix, this COULD-if done right-be that something.

Here's an idea, make skill-ups occur at twice the rate as elsewhere in Salvage/against ZNM; won't bring in everyone but those with an interest will flock there, and those that don't care about skill still have Abyssea. Add new recipies for crafting/synergy that yield good end-game items and make salvage/ZNM mobs the best source of materials for them. Make a public announcement that Deluxe Animator is an inferior knock-off of the Animator +1, and make Einherjar an alternate path to Mythic to attract pups. Add some better bolts so the mythic crossbow is sought after. Put the Mythic WS in the !! mix so they are required to increase the Nyzul interest. And that's just a few things you can do... Or, you know, you can ASK THE PLAYERS what would make them want to do things along the mythic path.

[Rorald]

I'm all for working towards a goal but lets be honest even if they completly took out the elexandrite part of the quest it would still be more work then anything else in the game, and as for the game being hard i dont really see what was ever really that hard in the first place unless you consider having to kill things for drops 100 times before you see one item hard and that seems to be the route they are choosing to go down with voidwatch.

[Bersty]

I understand the reasoning behind the Alexandrite, and I won't disagree with the Dev. team there. Where I would like to make a suggestion to them is in the adjustment of the "tag" system and ZNM trophies.

Tags need to adopt the Abyssea Stone format in my opinion, so that they may accumulate over time allowing for more consistent entry to Assaults, Nyzul, and consequently, Salvage. I hope they are genuinely looking at adopting that system for Tags, as it is definitely something many players struggle with in building a Mythic if they require to do ALL of those events in at the same time.

Einherjar needs to be made at-par with the new neo-dynamis format: i.e. We need to be able to enter it daily, bi-daily, just more frequently.

Finally, ZNM trophies: They need to be 100% drops from the ZNMs, and please, for the love of all that is good and holy DO NOT adopt a "!!" system for ZNMs. It is overused enough as it is already.

Just my 2 cents.

~B

[Byrth]

If we can take the way they re-worked Sky to be an example, I don't foresee future adjustments of Salvage/Einherjar/Assaults/etc. having any long-term impact on the price of Alexandrite.

Each HQ Abjuration has one good stat that's worth Augmenting for, but it's not *so* worth augmenting for that there are more than 6 people in Sky right now. People shredded the Abjurations they had sitting around and now no one cares enough to go farm Sky so they can get a 5% Fast Cast Blood Cuisses (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Blood_Cuisses)instead of a 4% Fast Cast one.

[Cahlum]

Easy way to fix the alexandrite problem is just make the pouch drop 100% on the chariot. Never understood why it didnt.

[Shoko]

If we can take the way they re-worked Sky to be an example, I don't foresee future adjustments of Salvage/Einherjar/Assaults/etc. having any long-term impact on the price of Alexandrite.

Each HQ Abjuration has one good stat that's worth Augmenting for, but it's not *so* worth augmenting for that there are more than 6 people in Sky right now. People shredded the Abjurations they had sitting around and now no one cares enough to go farm Sky so they can get a 5% Fast Cast Blood Cuisses (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Blood_Cuisses)instead of a 4% Fast Cast one.

Not sure this applies to everyone that does sky, especially the JP population (At least on my server of Carbuncle). They take so much pride and time into trying to get the maximum augment. Also for lazy people [they] spam random easy gods and sell tatters are a mid-premium that I've seen. And it's made a number of old pieces of gear very relevant again (without being over powered), which is nice.

And I agree Alex should be 100% from Chariots, and it should even drop a second or 3rd pouch at a high rate. From there, ever single mob should drop 1-3 Alex always.... no excuses why this isn't so.

[Dallas]

I'm working on Nirvana, if I didn't already say. You will not find any math to tell me it's not amazing, either :)

Then I won't show you the non-weapon gear to completely negate the perp cost component. That leaves you with that MAB component versus Myrkr (aka Convert +1 every 2 minutes).

It's amazing, but nowhere near the best yet.

[Greatguardian]

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]

The worst part about this post is that I am willing to believe that you actually believe all of that.

[Dart]

probably does, but seriously though. 1500-2k ukkos? My averages are way higher than that outside.<_<

the /sam not being useful for drk thing had me scratching my head too. Oh well

[Atomic_Skull]

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]


Barrage does not do 12,000 damage, Namas does not to 15,000 damage. Or did you mean 1200 and 1500 damage?

Damage is not RNGs problem anyway it's slow TP, pulling hate from outside melee range and lack of haste that causes RNG to be a terrible job.

I have never seen Wildfire break 5000 on RNG.


[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]

I don't own one so I can only tell you what I have seen, and I've never seen it break 2500 damage outside abyssea.


[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]


You read "cRatio", didn't know what it meant and assumed I was talking about critical hits.

cRatio is part of the level correction function. Y/G/K, Spinning Slash, Ground Strike and a few other WS partially ignore level difference when calculating damage.

[Bumbeen]

did they update y/g/k or something? All I remember is gekko gets a 100% attack bonus, kasha gets a 50% attack bonus and yukikaze gets something I forget.

[Greatguardian]

Attack is partially reflected in cRatio. Ratio is literally the Ratio between your Attack and enemy Defense. cRatio stands for "Corrected Ratio", which is Ratio after it is modified by Level Correction.

No update, just terminology.

[Bumbeen]

is the ygk bonus applied after level correction?

[Byrth]

is the ygk bonus applied after level correction?

No, it is not.

[Atomic_Skull]

did they update y/g/k or something? All I remember is gekko gets a 100% attack bonus, kasha gets a 50% attack bonus and yukikaze gets something I forget.

It gets an attack bonus but it's a multiplier applied to cRatio not a straight multiplier to attack.

[Bumbeen]

It gets an attack bonus but it's a multiplier applied to cRatio not a straight multiplier to attack.


No, it is not.

Applied before level correction bro!

[Byrth]

There's actually no difference between a multiplier to cRatio and a multiplier to Attack

cRatio = Attack/Defense

If Attack is increased by a factor of 1.5:
cRatio = 1.5*Attack/Defense

If cRatio is increased by a factor of 1.5:
cRatio = 1.5*Attack/Defense

"Level Corrected cRatio" would be a different story, but it's applied before level correction so it doesn't matter. It's terminology, and blame the wiki pages for their shitty explanations and redundant naming schemes.

[Bumbeen]

Oh ok . I was under the impression cratio was post-level corrected atk/def. Thanks for that post

[Arciel]

Then I won't show you the non-weapon gear to completely negate the perp cost component. That leaves you with that MAB component versus Myrkr (aka Convert +1 every 2 minutes).

It's amazing, but nowhere near the best yet.

It IS the best. if your SMN is meleeing anything worth a challenge outside of Abyssea you're doing it wrong. With the proper gearset and Nirvana, you should be idling with avatar out at about 5mp/tic refresh, which amounts to approx 100 mp gained per minute, not considering refresh from subjob. If you're using (celestial) avatar of the day, you can push this to 6 (or 7, not entirely sure) which is 120~140 mp/minute, whilst your avatar is out - more if its Carbuncle Fenrir or Diabolos. If I'm not mistaken the most you can ever get if your weapon slot is not counted is 1-2mp/tic - and thats what Hvergelmir would probably gain.

It isn't about negating perp cost as much as it is about perpetuating with constant MP to keep up with blood pacts - and staying alive, pretty much. You can do all this with a Nirvana without having to melee - meaning that you aren't dependent on the mob for your MP regeneration, nor will you run the risk of incapacitation just to gain TP to use Myrkr.

Case in point, take a Nirvana build SMN and a Hvergelmir SMN to the strongest new NMs outside of Abyssea from Voidwatch - Voidwrought, Hahava and Celaeno. Any SMN will be dead before long if it so much as tries to melee for TP. Not even going to discuss inside Abyssea because all you need is atma there.

And to add upon this, Nirvana comes with a very generous MAB boost for avatars, which simply cannot be beaten.
In other words, for a SMN with avatar out, you're really better off with Nirvana for constant MP gain instead of Hvergelmir for slightly more MP returns so long as you have TP.
The only exception to this is IF you're fighting mobs that are weak enough to melee solo- typically DC and below. But even with a Nirvana you won't lose out on very much because you still have Spirit Taker and the bonus of Aftermath effects.

[Malamasala]

Currently the development team is not looking at adjusting the amount of alexandrite needed, nor are they looking into increasing the methods by which alexandrite can be obtained. However, they will be making improvements and adjustments in order to rejuvenate salvage, assault, and other Treasures of Aht Urghan content.

It doesn't surprise me that the development team yet again pick the wrong course of action. Isn't there any way we can tell them they are doing it wrong? It is like sitting on a sinking ship and hear the captain scream "Swab the deck! Yarrr!".

The main issue with relics, mythics and empyreans is where your good weapon ended up anyway. Like SMN has crap relic, good mythic, whatever empyrean. Ideally every SMN should go for a mythic, but 30 000 alex per SMN on the server is hard to create. Meanwhile every SAM and WAR can just go make empyreans easy as cake and get the best weapon in the game.

[Mightyg]

Naturally since these events have fallen out of favor, they are very very hard to get. I'm assuming SE wants to revitalize these events. Either way, setting monetary requirements to obtain top tier weapons has always been a major flaw in that it rewards people with money, not necessarily those that worked hard to obtain it. Relics may very well be the largest reason gil selling was such a plague on the game for so long. Dynamis Currency/Alexandrite should be done away with completely in exchange for a personal point system. To transition to this, simply allow currency to be exchanged for points so people previously working on obtaining Relic/Mythic can receive credit for their effort.

[Dallas]

It IS the best.

(1) approx 100 mp gained per minute, not considering refresh from subjob.

(2) It isn't about negating perp cost as much as it is about perpetuating with constant MP to keep up with blood pacts You can do all this with a Nirvana without having to melee

(3) And to add upon this, Nirvana comes with a very generous MAB boost for avatars, which simply cannot be beaten.

(4) But even with a Nirvana you won't lose out on very much because you still have Spirit Taker and the bonus of Aftermath effects.

I know you think that 100MP/minute from arming yourself to the teeth with refresh gear somehow compares to an instantaneous 1k MP from a single WS, so I'll entertain you. You will have to suffer the math now.

... Myrkr returns more MP than convert, faster than convert, without the inconvenience of requiring hp or /RDM. You restrict your subjob choice to a lesser subjob for the sole purpose to regain mp.

... When I am meleeing, I don't need perp or refresh gear AT ALL. You either restrict yourself to a specific set of 8-10 pieces of gear for the sole purpose to regain mp, or you restrict yourself to 5 pieces and put away your avatar. Anyone who does the latter has no use for Nirvana.

... Speaking of those 10 pieces... they are all MUCH easier to get than Nirvana. So is a +2 magian staff. End result is the same, which is why we can completely ignore the perp component of Nirvana. Hell, I have all free avatars with Hvergelmir. It isn't special or even braggable anymore to keep avatars out, especially for the price of 150mil. I know I'd laugh, and I'm sure others would too.

... 1 regain = 20 TP/minute = 100 TP/ 5 minutes = 1 Myrkr = 1800 Max MP * 20% = 360 MP/5 minutes = 72 MP/minute = 3.5 refresh

... Short break for you to absorb that ...

... That means 1 WOTG reward earring = 3.5 refresh items. Meditate > refresh, and so on. I have lifted my staff, but I am still out of range of everything.

... MAB is all you have with Nirvana. I acknowledged this. It also means you have nothing when using physical pacts. Of course, you never would. I credit Nirvana for it's 2 in 6 odds, 1-trick pony. Pray you have meritted the right element for the job.

... Classic argument on "which is better for SMN" is to find some really hard fight that very few people have any reason to fight, then pretend that is the only fight out there. Let's move to your point 4, as 99% of the time, the game IS easy. You ready?

... How are you planning to land that Aftermath while using Spirit Taker? Ooops!

Hvergelmir > Nirvana > Claustrum for 3 reasons:

1) Myrkr is the best staff WS in the game. If you weren't reading up on it, it cures Silence too.
2) Emp staff has the only Aftermath that will activate.
3) This 1 item replaces 8-10 items and a subjob.

[Arciel]

I am not denying that Myrkr is a good ws, but you are sorely exaggerating its ability in any practical situation.

1) different playstyles for different SMN, but I would rather keep an avatar out and get MP gains than put it away to do so.

2) you say restricting 8 pieces of EQ as if its some kind of detrimental thing. Perp gear and idle gear are essentially the same things except for slots where perp reduction is > refresh until your perp hits 1. For the 8 slots that are used, 4 of them are things you would normally already be using. You can still swap gear for BPs and Ele Siphon if you so desire.

3) Perpetuation isn't the main issue. Magian staves are great sure, but they're also a collective hassle, don't come with the MAB component and require weapon switching which is a disadvantage for meleeing on smaller things. Free avatars isn't whats braggable, the MAB is. And quite honestly, if you have ANY mythic, that much is braggable based on how much effort needs to be put in.

4) In an ideal situation, sure.. 3.5 refresh for 5 minutes of 1tp regain, but this doesn't factor in the mob. Not all mobs give you the comfort to do that. Anything that plagues, resets TP, strips, or uses max MP down will have a bearing on your strategy. Sure not all of them can do stuff like that which hits beyond a 20' range, but you aren't guaranteed that kind of certainty. Any one of these things hit you and you'd need to rebuild that TP.
Also, engaging the mob, to me is a huge inflexibility - you can't do that if you're BP-kiting. you can't do that if the mob requires staying away from, you can't do that if your mob happens to have erratic hate induced movement or teleports.

5) LOL. 2 out of 6. A decent SMN unlocks all 6 with at least 1 point. Anything more is merely TP bonus for damage. Any of these 4: Keeping your avatar out (regain from pendant) + possibly meleeing + Spats TP bonus + Mana Cede can effectively make up for NOT meriting 5/5. The MAB is then the icing on the cake. Also to be honest, 2/6 elemental weakness is more than enough for most NMs.

6) Classic counter-argument on 'which is better for SMN' is to pretend that the fights you don't do are the ones that don't matter. I used Voidwatch as an example - its the newest event to be implemented in the game, with a good degree of success and, surprise!, theres gonna be 3 more parts to Voidwatch in this coming year. By that point, Abyssea would have lost whatever difficulty (or lack of it) that it has left with the level cap raise, and you can be sure that there'll be strong gear options and game-driven incentives to do Voidwatch.

7) Garland of Bliss to activate Aftermath -> Spirit Taker, silly.

...finally
- Myrkr is the best staff WS in the game - I wouldn't deny that. But it's also not necessary half the time.
- Only staff aftermath that activates. Perhaps. Does the ODD work with avatars tho?
- tbh on anything realistically hard, your set up hinges more on Moonshade Earring than the Hvergelmir itself, but I won't disagree that it does finally give mages a decent TP move to use.

you have your reasons for favoring Hvergelmir, and nitsuj and I have our reasons for Nirvana. I think we can agree to disagree - some of what you mention as strengths of the Hvergel to me are its biggest weaknesses, and vice versa. At the end of the day both are good weapons, but some will still favor one over the other based on your own playstyle.

And there are more reasons to do Mythic weapons that do not necessarily hinge on effectiveness at all. Looks, personal intrinsic value, FF heritage, and so on.

What you're trying to say only proves another point that we're trying to make - if Nirvana, as one of the mythics that isnt supposedly trumped by Empyrean is replaceable too, is there even a reason for people to do Mythics anymore considering the commitment and difficulty? Why is the effort:reward ratio on Mythic weapons still so screwed up?

[Garota]

This is getting ridiculous... To all you summoners out there praising Myrkr, quit it with your Abyssea mentality. You're not always going to have your precious Regain Atmas, TP wings, SAM Shikikoyo Buddy and all that jazz. Be realistic, in majority of situations anywhere else outside of Abyssea, you will not be meleeing to build up tp for your precious weaponskill.

I'm personally getting tired of watching Port Jeuno shouts for people putting together an Empyrean Weapon handing out +2 items as rewards like candy to random kids. I do not feel like competing for a timed NM or a ??? repop against a random shout pick-up-group in order to make myself any of the Empyrean Weapons. Seriously, it's so easy that any kid still wearing Aurore, Pearle & Teal gear can make these forsaken shiny toys. Kids nowadays don't bother putting much or any effort into anything else anymore. All new players and returning players want is to get their own thing done now, Abyssea made players selfish and extremely lazy. Now everything just seems to be is, "Me me me and now now now!"

[Dallas]

The events you are missing are:

1) the moment before every important battle where everyone gets 300% TP.
2) the moment of using Myrkr when the SMN stacks +MP
3) the 1000-1500 MP in the hole Nirvana starts at before EVERY fight.

In a melee contest, Hver SMN will use Haste gear and attack 50% faster than Nirvana before aftermaths. If Nirv SMN use Spirit Taker ever, Nirvana dishes out less than half the damage of Hvergelmir. Nirv SMN absolutely MUST get enough mp from subjob and 8 gear slots.

No, Hver aftermath does not impact pets, but ODD aftermath damage is 4x avatar melee damage. Nirv SMN will still get soundly thrashed.

Yes, Nirvana blows like every other mythic, especially if you are wasting your 45-second timer on a L1 merit pact. BLM wouldn't be caught dead diversifying, Nirvana SMN should take the hint.

[Arciel]

1) not in a BC, and it won't make that much of a difference if your battle extends beyond 10minutes, and every important battle probably would.
2/3) more gear swaps yay! MP is important but not the only concern that SMN will have. This 1000-1500 MP hole that you speak of exists for EVERY SINGLE non-Myrkr SMN and they don't really seem to have a problem without it. Effectively, all you're getting for your character is a convenience, not a boost because you will still ultimately be held back by BP timer.

In a melee contest, I wouldn't bring my SMN. Comparing melee damage is a strawman argument. Also, until you've parsed it or seen a Aftermath III SMN in action, I wouldn't be sure to pull out fake damage comparisons if I were you.

Finally, SMN isn't BLM and your reasoning isn't even close. BLMs typically specialize in 2 spells because they will usually only magic burst on 2 spells, one for light and one for dark. All AM2 spells have the same base attack and additional merits only affect MB damage and magic accuracy. Not to mention if they really wanted to nuke on the other 4 elements, they still had decent tier IV (and now V) nukes to work with.

SMN does not have that variety for magic attacks, because the lv60 Tier IV nukes suck. In addition, even if you diversified to all 6 pacts, you are still able to max out 1 of them to Lv5 which you can use a majority of the time unless another avatar is needed or that element happens to be severely resisted - and this rarely happens unless magic damage itself is resisted.

[Staren]

I hope they dont fix this like they did dyna. Currency is scarcer and dyna mobs can two to three shot level 90s. Nice fix se. More people doing a harder version of old endgame will not make mythics on par with empyrean obtainability. Even if they increase drop rate it'll still take the better part of a year to finish and ppl will not sell for less. Thanks for nothing se. You need to lower the requirement or you're not helping.

[Dallas]

This 1000-1500 MP hole that you speak of exists for EVERY SINGLE non-Myrkr SMN and they don't really seem to have a problem without it.

Yes they do, that's why they wear 10 pieces of perp/refresh gear, use Minikin and sub RDM. You don't play any other way because you have no room for it. That's OK, just don't stand next to Hvergelmir.

[AyinDygra]

Currently the development team is not looking at adjusting the amount of alexandrite needed, nor are they looking into increasing the methods by which alexandrite can be obtained. However, they will be making improvements and adjustments in order to rejuvenate salvage, assault, and other Treasures of Aht Urghan content.

"Improvements and adjustments in order to rejuvenate salvage, assault, ToAU content"... that do not include methods to obtain Alexandrite, or lowering the Alexandrite requirement... I don't think that course of action could be considered an "Improvement" regarding mythic weapons.

Judging by how Sky was "rejuvenated" by augments synergized from NM drops... my fear is that you mean: destroy "15, 25 and 35" gear pieces to create "usukane tatters" to add augments to Usukane Salvage gear, so it's no longer storable and its minor increase in stats makes it desirable only as a side-grade or macro piece for a certain action.

For the people I know, this will not rejuvenate Salvage. The only reason I'm still interested in Salvage is for completion's sake, and an update mirroring the Sky update as I described would not help getting my group back into those events. I still need a couple pieces for a couple sets, but my group abandoned Salvage when Abyssea was introduced, and I don't really blame them; +1 and +2 Empyrean armors are better and far easier to get than anything from Salvage.

The only reason people were willing to endure Salvage Pathos and time constraints and crazy NM pop conditions, was because the gear was some of the best in the game. I don't "expect" any of these "rejuvenation" changes to impact any of those issues.

One of my hopes is that the changes include allowing the Remnants Permits to be purchased with Imperial Standing Points or Imperial Currency (1 mythril piece) as well (maybe even Jettons; Zasshal may be an avid Pankration fan); essentially separating Assault from Salvage, thus freeing Nyzul to be more accessible.

Changes to Assault and Nyzul: Allow people to join Nyzul expeditions or Assault Missions without using a tag, with the restriction that you cannot gain "Runic Disk floor completion saving" or "Assault Points" for your efforts without a tag. People would be able to help each other out a lot more often if they didn't have to choose between Assault and Nyzul. As it stands, most people who are serious about gaining assault ranks have "static groups" that meet each week to complete each Assault Mission. If somebody were to ask one of these "static group" members to help them in Nyzul, or on their own Assault Mission, guess what answer they'd get. (The answer would be "I'm sorry, but I'll have to pass." ... even if they wanted to help, just to be clear)

~*~

Alexandrite

My Salvage group never focused on Alexandrite acquisition, but our highest runs would net us about 80 Alexandrite, split between 6-12 people. We went twice a week, so 160 a week (on the best weeks). At that rate, it's 8320 Alexandrite per year. For the duration of our group's activity (over a year), I walked away with under 1,000 Alexandrite. 30+ years for a mythic weapon, no thanks! Go buy Alexandrite from other players? I thought the concept behind Mythic weapons was: Quest-based acquisition, not gil-based, like relics. (Also, from what I understand, the amount of Alexandrite making its way into the world was artificially inflated with item duping, skewing whatever numbers you had collected when making an evaluation of whether or not to reduce the Alexandrite requirements at one point early on.)

What I would do about Alexandrite:
* Add Alexandrite purses as 100% drops from all Salvage NMs, especially bosses.
* Add Alexandrite purses as 100% drops from Nyzul 20/40/60/80/100 floor bosses.
* Allow all enemies in Salvage AND Nyzul to drop Alexandrite. (especially Qiqirns who love their sparklies)
* Increase Alexandrite drop rate from all archaic machinery (Ramparts, Gears, Chariots), 1 minimum, up to 3?

And 2 more ideas, much less likely to be implemented, but would be welcome:
* Reward from Besieged and Rescuing Prisoners, maybe make it an alternate reward from experience and imperial standing. (Combine this with a method of talking to a gate guard near the mog house during the battle to collect rewards for participation and leave, or continue fighting, for those who are plagued by frequent disconnects in those horrid battles)
* They could add "the Depths of Alzadaal"; new sections of the existing Alzadaal Undersea Ruins zone (separated by teleporters), that is always open to exploration and fighting, populated by Archaic Ramparts, Gears, Spheres, Acroliths, Rogue Automatons, Qiqirns and Chariots that all have chances to drop Alexandrite. Notorious monsters (if any) could drop Cotton and Linen Coin Purses like the bosses within Salvage. With enough spawns on 5min repops, at a level that would drop Kindred's Crests and High Kindred's Crests, they might become a popular farming target, increasing the supply of Alexandrite beyond just that obtained by mythic upgrading soloers.

These modifications would change the focus from buying Alexandrite back to your own efforts to gather Alexandrite.

I'd also like to be able to check in with the Mythic quest Qiqirn in Nashmau to see a running tally of what I've given him. (eyepatch, book, assault logs, current alexandrite)

What I would do to rejuvenate Salvage Gear:
* Add Magian trials to Salvage gear (Ideally: kill <Salvage NM> # of times, not item gathering). (each completed step could still be stored) You could even add separate paths for each job, since multiple jobs can wear each set. If people REALLY like the Salvage gear created from these job specific paths, they might be encouraged to create, for example, three Usukane sets, one for Monk, one for Puppetmaster, and one for Samurai. And some jobs like Summoner could actually get appropriate stats on their gear, not just generic mage stats.
* Resulting gear should have its name changed, so people can have Job-customized sets of the same Rare/Ex gear, since there has been an issue with past Magian items sharing the same name. (Mnk:"Brawler's Usukane <gear>", Sam:"Swordmaster's Usukane <gear>", Pup:"Manipulator's Usukane <gear>", Nin:"Shadow's Usukane <gear>")
* The resulting job-customized gear should still allow the original job list to equip it!
* And lastly, increase drop rates of 35's, because if people are now creating 2 or more of each set for different jobs, the current drop rates will infuriate people.

For Zeni NMs:
* Make trophies 100% drop. Please.
* Increase the Zeni gained from each picture, or reduce Zeni costs.
* Allow trading in more pictures each day.
* Create a new inventory bag (album) to hold just soul plates!

A smaller thought, related to both Empyrean and Salvage gear because of "set bonuses":
Perhaps add a new "wild card" feature to some gear to allow it to complete any "set bonus" that would otherwise be either removed or diminished by the replacing of that gear with this "wild card" gear.
* If pieces of two or more sets are equipped with the wild card gear, only the set with the most pieces will be completed by the wild card. In case of a tie, there could be a priority list by gear slot, so the set with the highest priority piece gets the set bonus completed: Body, Legs, Head, Hands, Feet, Accessories, since any of those could be wild cards.
* Without a feature like this, new pieces of gear will have to be MORE powerful than either Salvage or Empyrean gear AND their set bonuses, to justify the loss of some "Set Bonuses" by mixing and matching of newly released non-set gear.

[Atomic_Skull]

No more moogles shooping the whoop at our armor. I am sick to DEATH of this. Instead add new mobs and NMs to salvage with conditional pops (you have to do somthing to make them spawn instead of the normal mobs) which drop trophy items that are traded to Ghanraam in order to upgrade the equipment to reskinned and renamed versions of the old gear.

[Cahlum]

"Improvements and adjustments in order to rejuvenate salvage, assault, ToAU content"... that do not include methods to obtain Alexandrite, or lowering the Alexandrite requirement... I don't think that course of action could be considered an "Improvement" regarding mythic weapons.

Judging by how Sky was "rejuvenated" by augments synergized from NM drops... my fear is that you mean: destroy "15, 25 and 35" gear pieces to create "usukane tatters" to add augments to Usukane Salvage gear, so it's no longer storable and its minor increase in stats makes it desirable only as a side-grade or macro piece for a certain action.

For the people I know, this will not rejuvenate Salvage. The only reason I'm still interested in Salvage is for completion's sake, and an update mirroring the Sky update as I described would not help getting my group back into those events. I still need a couple pieces for a couple sets, but my group abandoned Salvage when Abyssea was introduced, and I don't really blame them; +1 and +2 Empyrean armors are better and far easier to get than anything from Salvage.

The only reason people were willing to endure Salvage Pathos and time constraints and crazy NM pop conditions, was because the gear was some of the best in the game. I don't "expect" any of these "rejuvenation" changes to impact any of those issues.

One of my hopes is that the changes include allowing the Remnants Permits to be purchased with Imperial Standing Points or Imperial Currency (1 mythril piece) as well (maybe even Jettons; Zasshal may be an avid Pankration fan); essentially separating Assault from Salvage, thus freeing Nyzul to be more accessible.

Changes to Assault and Nyzul: Allow people to join Nyzul expeditions or Assault Missions without using a tag, with the restriction that you cannot gain "Runic Disk floor completion saving" or "Assault Points" for your efforts without a tag. People would be able to help each other out a lot more often if they didn't have to choose between Assault and Nyzul. As it stands, most people who are serious about gaining assault ranks have "static groups" that meet each week to complete each Assault Mission. If somebody were to ask one of these "static group" members to help them in Nyzul, or on their own Assault Mission, guess what answer they'd get. (The answer would be "I'm sorry, but I'll have to pass." ... even if they wanted to help, just to be clear)

~*~

Alexandrite

My Salvage group never focused on Alexandrite acquisition, but our highest runs would net us about 80 Alexandrite, split between 6-12 people. We went twice a week, so 160 a week (on the best weeks). At that rate, it's 8320 Alexandrite per year. For the duration of our group's activity (over a year), I walked away with under 1,000 Alexandrite. 30+ years for a mythic weapon, no thanks! Go buy Alexandrite from other players? I thought the concept behind Mythic weapons was: Quest-based acquisition, not gil-based, like relics. (Also, from what I understand, the amount of Alexandrite making its way into the world was artificially inflated with item duping, skewing whatever numbers you had collected when making an evaluation of whether or not to reduce the Alexandrite requirements at one point early on.)

What I would do about Alexandrite:
* Add Alexandrite purses as 100% drops from all Salvage NMs, especially bosses.
* Add Alexandrite purses as 100% drops from Nyzul 20/40/60/80/100 floor bosses.
* Allow all enemies in Salvage AND Nyzul to drop Alexandrite. (especially Qiqirns who love their sparklies)
* Increase Alexandrite drop rate from all archaic machinery (Ramparts, Gears, Chariots), 1 minimum, up to 3?

And 2 more ideas, much less likely to be implemented, but would be welcome:
* Reward from Besieged and Rescuing Prisoners, maybe make it an alternate reward from experience and imperial standing. (Combine this with a method of talking to a gate guard near the mog house during the battle to collect rewards for participation and leave, or continue fighting, for those who are plagued by frequent disconnects in those horrid battles)
* They could add "the Depths of Alzadaal"; new sections of the existing Alzadaal Undersea Ruins zone (separated by teleporters), that is always open to exploration and fighting, populated by Archaic Ramparts, Gears, Spheres, Acroliths, Rogue Automatons, Qiqirns and Chariots that all have chances to drop Alexandrite. Notorious monsters (if any) could drop Cotton and Linen Coin Purses like the bosses within Salvage. With enough spawns on 5min repops, at a level that would drop Kindred's Crests and High Kindred's Crests, they might become a popular farming target, increasing the supply of Alexandrite beyond just that obtained by mythic upgrading soloers.

These modifications would change the focus from buying Alexandrite back to your own efforts to gather Alexandrite.

I'd also like to be able to check in with the Mythic quest Qiqirn in Nashmau to see a running tally of what I've given him. (eyepatch, book, assault logs, current alexandrite)

What I would do to rejuvenate Salvage Gear:
* Add Magian trials to Salvage gear (Ideally: kill <Salvage NM> # of times, not item gathering). (each completed step could still be stored) You could even add separate paths for each job, since multiple jobs can wear each set. If people REALLY like the Salvage gear created from these job specific paths, they might be encouraged to create, for example, three Usukane sets, one for Monk, one for Puppetmaster, and one for Samurai. And some jobs like Summoner could actually get appropriate stats on their gear, not just generic mage stats.
* Resulting gear should have its name changed, so people can have Job-customized sets of the same Rare/Ex gear, since there has been an issue with past Magian items sharing the same name. (Mnk:"Brawler's Usukane <gear>", Sam:"Swordmaster's Usukane <gear>", Pup:"Manipulator's Usukane <gear>", Nin:"Shadow's Usukane <gear>")
* The resulting job-customized gear should still allow the original job list to equip it!
* And lastly, increase drop rates of 35's, because if people are now creating 2 or more of each set for different jobs, the current drop rates will infuriate people.

For Zeni NMs:
* Make trophies 100% drop. Please.
* Increase the Zeni gained from each picture, or reduce Zeni costs.
* Allow trading in more pictures each day.
* Create a new inventory bag (album) to hold just soul plates!

A smaller thought, related to both Empyrean and Salvage gear because of "set bonuses":
Perhaps add a new "wild card" feature to some gear to allow it to complete any "set bonus" that would otherwise be either removed or diminished by the replacing of that gear with this "wild card" gear.
* If pieces of two or more sets are equipped with the wild card gear, only the set with the most pieces will be completed by the wild card. In case of a tie, there could be a priority list by gear slot, so the set with the highest priority piece gets the set bonus completed: Body, Legs, Head, Hands, Feet, Accessories, since any of those could be wild cards.
* Without a feature like this, new pieces of gear will have to be MORE powerful than either Salvage or Empyrean gear AND their set bonuses, to justify the loss of some "Set Bonuses" by mixing and matching of newly released non-set gear.

Square Enix should read this