Camlann's Torment

[Bladewolf]

So I went through the long and annoying process to get Camlann's Torment and it was well worth it. My friends all refuse to kill Chloris again though. But there is one thing that bothers me... The description of the WS states "Delivers a triple damage attack that ignores target's defense. Amount ignored varies with TP." I read this as it will do triple the damage as Wheeling Thrust but in reality it does less than double the damage. I feel greedy asking for it to do more damage but the other weapon's WS's do alot more. I know Wheeling Thrust had to be adjusted about 6 years ago. So I was wondering if Camlann's Torment might see an adjustment.

On the bright side since I have got this polearm I have hit a critical hit for over 3000. Aftermath + Set Bonus proc'ing on a critical hit is amazing. :D

I hoping I am posting this in the right spot. Dragoon forum seemed like it would be the best place for this.

[Burmecia]

Congrats on getting your empyrean! =) I'm working on that as well right now, and I can feel your pain with getting the Chloris pops lol. >.< It's a lot of work!

I wouldn't mind seeing a small boost to this WS, but I feel like I can't really say anything until I try it out myself. ^^; Many of the other Empyrean Weaponskills do seem to outshine it though, at least in abyssea, so I'm all for a small boost to level the playing field.

[Stromgarde]

I have done quite a bit of testing on Camlann's Torment, as well as submitted feedback accordingly. The current battle data for Camlann's Torment is as follows:

3.0 fTP, 60% VIT modifier, 1 hit. At 100% TP, 10% of defense is ignored, which scales linearly to 50% of defense being ignored at 300% TP. This feature noticeably produces no effect when using food against nearly all targets outside of Abyssea. Inside Abyssea, even with aftermath, you are better off using Drakesbane since aftermath cannot activate on Spirit Jump or Soul Jump.

For comparison, Tachi: Fudo, widely considered one of the 'lesser' empyrean weaponskills due to its inability to critical, starts at 3.65 fTP (60% STR fTP modifier) and scales slightly backheaviliy (3.65 -> 4.65 -> 5.75) from 100 to 300% TP, and it is not unusual to see a 3000 damage WS outside Abyssea, whereas Camlann's Torment is capped at roughly 1600-1800 unless a double attack occurs. Quietus, the empyrean scythe weaponskill, suffers from the same discrepancy.

Incidentally Bladewolf, I created an excel spreadsheet to simplify the formula for CT, although it ignores certain factors such as uncapped fSTR and cRatio, I'd be happy to share with you if you like.

Edit: If you want to see change, here's the link you should be using.
https://support.na.square-enix.com/form.php?id=20&la=1&p=0&fo=41

[jamver]

aftermath cant proc on soul or spirit jump?

[Stromgarde]

Correct sir. I haven't tried with regular or high jump, but then again I didn't see much point to it either given how far ahead their high-level counterparts are.

[jamver]

have got some really high numbers, i just thought it was aftermath, i did over 2k often

[Stromgarde]

Consider that set bonus does stack with Spirit and Soul Jump, which in turn can double and even triple attack. If aftermath did activate on them, then you would be seeing far higher numbers.

[Bladewolf]

Yeah I have done the new jumps alot with aftermath up and never a proc on them.

[Raenil]

The reason CT not doing triple WT damage is because WT has a 1.75 fTP and CT has a 3.0 fTP. WT also has a 50% STR WSC, which blows CT's 60% VIT WSC out of the water.

It's for this reason I wont be going for a Rhongomiant myself, but a Corsesca instead. Once I stop being lazy and get eight more Baby Blobdingnabs, anyway.

[Bladewolf]

Camlann's Torment isn't the reason you go for Rhongomiant... Its the aftermath you are going for with that.

[Raenil]

Well, of course. But you're forced to use a vastly inferior WS in exchange for a boost to TP damage, which doesn't pan out very well for Rhongomiant.

[NeoForte]

While the aftermath is nice, wouldn't that also mean that Ryunohige is pretty much the best "Relic" DRG can get. At Lv90 it gets a 15% boost to Drakesbane and it has Oc Attacks Twice as it's aftermath.

[Burmecia]

While the aftermath is nice, wouldn't that also mean that Ryunohige is pretty much the best "Relic" DRG can get. At Lv90 it gets a 15% boost to Drakesbane and it has Oc Attacks Twice as it's aftermath.

That's kind of how I felt, and why I'm more interested in getting a Ryunohige someday (not putting a huge effort into it yet though since mythics are still perhaps the hardest relics to get). I think what makes it kind of "meh" now is that the "jump" augments don't affect our new jumps, supposedly, and our new jumps are still preferred because of their high damage and TP boost. But overall, I still think Ryunohige is maybe the best relic for dragoon in my opinion. Empyrean is just a whole lot easier to get.

[Raenil]

Yeah, Ryunohige is (as far as I can recall) the best weapon for DRG. The issue is obtaining one. Alexandrites are ~50% more expensive than they were when Mythics were popular and pretty much impossible to find these days outside of spamming Salvage.

[Bladewolf]

Yeah Ryunohige is pretty good. I need to look to see how the dmg is now but when it came out the dmg was way too low for me. It is really hard to get...

Camlann's is actually really useful not what I would call inferior. Since I know I can't use Drakesbane on a normal mob without getting ruby... Camlann's I can use at the start of the fight to take about 50% of the mobs HP. Outside of Abyssea Camlann's does do the same and sometimes more dmg than Drakesbane.

[Stromgarde]

Yeah Ryunohige is pretty good. I need to look to see how the dmg is now but when it came out the dmg was way too low for me. It is really hard to get...

Camlann's is actually really useful not what I would call inferior. Since I know I can't use Drakesbane on a normal mob without getting ruby... Camlann's I can use at the start of the fight to take about 50% of the mobs HP. Outside of Abyssea Camlann's does do the same and sometimes more dmg than Drakesbane.
Aye, on the whole, it is better than Drakesbane outside of Abyssea, just not by much. Best way to sum it up is 'disappointing relative to other empyrean weaponskills'.

[Bladewolf]

Aye, on the whole, it is better than Drakesbane outside of Abyssea, just not by much. Best way to sum it up is 'disappointing relative to other empyrean weaponskills'.

I can agree with that...

[Anucris]

why cant difficult to get WS's just be really good? i most often use skewer and do between 2k(NM)-5.6k(birds/bats) dmg in abyssea outside abyssea its about the same as penta. wish i had drakesbane i bet it would be better but it and camlaans torment are a lot of work to get. and its sad that u get skewer so much earlier and theres no effort required. the only reason to get camlaans torment it seems is because of the base wpn damage and the aftermath.

[Ophannus]

Also Calmanns>Calmanns makes Light which you can then Calmanns again for double Light.

[Lancil]

I don't want to go into the details, but you cannot do Camlanns>Camlanns>Camlanns for double light. You could do Camlanns>Drakes and close with Camlanns, or vice versa to make double.

[Lancil]

I'll admit I was disappointed with Camlanns when I first got it and became especially jellous when a sam friend of mine started to do ridiculous damage with fudo(not even mentioning the skillchains). But I kind of get the feeling SE made Camlanns specifically to Skillchain with drakesbane. /Sam and the new jumps I can self SC at least 3 times in 5 min. Thats more than what I can do on my sam. Perhaps Camlanns isn't supposed to do incredible amounts of damage because of a dragoons rapid tp gain. Doing it this way you still get your aftermath and do about the same damage you would have done if you just did 2 drakesbanes back to back.

[Insaniac]

I love my Rhongo. Camlann's > Drakes > Drakes > Repeat. I have an easy 5 hit for the 2nd drakes and usually go no more than 5 seconds without my aftermath. I don't really have a problem with the VIT mod either. There is a ton of gear with both VIT and STR on it. You can hit near +70 VIT while maintaining +60ish STR. You can also trade VV/RR/Apoc for Savior/RR/Apoc. You lose the DA Regain and 20 STR but gain 30 VIT and a lot more survivability for you and your wyvern. I would be lying if I said I wouldn't like to see at least Fudo numbers out of Camlann's though.

[jamver]

would like that if pet got aftermath also

[Granny]

Yes Square-Enix PLEASE oh please adjust Camlann's Torment weapon skill. I have been playing drg for a very long time and finnaly through abyssea have the opportunity to get a good weapon for drg which is my favorite job. I worked very hard on getting the full version of the weapon with ws and aftermath and am very very disapointed. The weaponskill is one of the worst there is, there is no reason to use it which makes aftermath useless, and the weapon useless...

Red mage even gets a weapon skill that does easly double what dragoons does, which is just wrong for the dragoon community, along with the fact it's near impossible to keep our wyverns alive which if we can keep them alive long enough to pop out a healing breath which we still only have the highest teir healing breath from level 60... which is highly outdated.

The only way this weaponskill could possibly be worth useing is if the "ignores deffence" was 100% so it's mediocor damage would be at least decent on some type of HNM...

PLEASE SE HEAR MY CRY

[Sekundes]

For those who are curious, testing seems to indicate that Ryu is not only the best weapon for drg but the best weapon currently in the game.

Also, a Drg with one can be considered the best straight dd in the game if you do not count things such as counters or retaliation which can vary so it's hard to say without defining a very specific set of criteria. Granted this is based of theoretical testing meaning that without having exact damage formulas it can't be perfect and this is calculated so results can vary since both jobs would have to follow a very strict tp cycle to meet numbers like this.

If your curious there is a thread about it on AH.

[Sekundes]

I don't want to go into the details, but you cannot do Camlanns>Camlanns>Camlanns for double light. You could do Camlanns>Drakes and close with Camlanns, or vice versa to make double.

You are right, as far as my testing has shown. As for the second style, you can do this but it's VERY hard to do with just one drg because you have to hit that third ws before the light animation finishes. It is a very short window.

[Dathus]

You are right, as far as my testing has shown. As for the second style, you can do this but it's VERY hard to do with just one drg because you have to hit that third ws before the light animation finishes. It is a very short window.

Sekka + Jump timers up + Meditate = no problem.

[Luces]

Yes Square-Enix PLEASE oh please adjust Camlann's Torment weapon skill. I have been playing drg for a very long time and finnaly through abyssea have the opportunity to get a good weapon for drg which is my favorite job. I worked very hard on getting the full version of the weapon with ws and aftermath and am very very disapointed. The weaponskill is one of the worst there is, there is no reason to use it which makes aftermath useless, and the weapon useless...

Red mage even gets a weapon skill that does easly double what dragoons does, which is just wrong for the dragoon community, along with the fact it's near impossible to keep our wyverns alive which if we can keep them alive long enough to pop out a healing breath which we still only have the highest teir healing breath from level 60... which is highly outdated.

The only way this weaponskill could possibly be worth useing is if the "ignores deffence" was 100% so it's mediocor damage would be at least decent on some type of HNM...

PLEASE SE HEAR MY CRY

SE answer to you is gear properly, of the people I have scene use CT don't have any issues braking 2k and going higher, wile not on par with drakes you should be able to maintain 2.5k+ CT's easly, if you don't have the gear to do this then you shouldn't have built the weapon first. Quitis can hit 3k in or out of abyssea if geared properly as well why they may not throw out the 5k+wtf lucky numbers the other ws can, but they both hold up better outside of abyssea, then most the others esp once we get new content when that ignoring defense is going to matter again. We aren't 99 yet chill out. Also CDC on a rdm can do twice as much ONLY if all the hits critical and you are inside abyssea with atmas for this, which if you go dd atma's purely on rdm you will be around 50% critical hit rate so. It would be nice, but no rdm lacks the sword skill and armor to be able to average anywhere near the numbers of a blu using CDC. Drg can also ws WAY more often, and self skillchain a light with CT(which before hand you where loosing damage for a weak skillchain if you wanted to skillchain for some odd reason) without going out of their way, where as rdm would have to be subbing samurai and have sekk up, in order to do this.

Please think logically instead of crying.

[Stromgarde]

Okay, let's think logically then.

Please allow me to run the relevant math by you. The issue at hand is a disparity between CT and other non-crit Empyrean WS, such as Tachi: Fudo and Torcleaver; Let us perform an apples to apples comparison, using the level 85 weapons of two heavy DD jobs as examples.

Outside of Abyssea, Camlann's Torment's maximum damage is as follows, with 84 base VIT and this (link) (http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/207373) weaponskill set.

FLOOR((125+21+77)*2.31*(3.0+0.1+0.1))=1648 damage; this does not change with TP.
Each additional hit yields a possibility of up to 688 damage.

In contrast, let us look at Torcleaver, another WS with a 60% VIT modifier. Unlike Camlann's Torment, it increases in damage with TP, whereas Camlann's Torment has a relatively useless 10% ignore defense property at 100% TP and scales linearly to 50% ignores defense at 300% TP, which is still useless outside of Abyssea due to pDIF almost always being capped. Inside Abyssea, Drakesbane is generally a far better choice by up to double, so the pragmatic choice is to just spam that, with few exceptions.

Outside of Abyssea, Torcleaver's maximum damage is as follows, with 84 base VIT and this (link) (http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/194575) weaponskill set.

At 100, 200, and 300% TP:
FLOOR((109+20+73)*2.31*(4.75+0.1+0.1))=2309 damage.
FLOOR((109+20+73)*2.31*(5.75+0.1+0.1))=2933 damage.
FLOOR((109+20+73)*2.31*(6.5+0.1+0.1))=3557 damage, with additional hits capable of dealing up to 624 damage each.

Quietus suffers from the same problems as CT does, in addition to having a split modifier which is its own headache.

I want the fTP modifier increased for both of these WS.

[Aequis]

Great to see people discussing this intelligently. The Rhongomiant actually suffers from a bad reputation in general, with a lot of people thinking it's "worthless" and that you're stupid to even think of working on it. I've had a few people literally tell me I'm "wasting my time". Around 13 fangs from my lv85 version now, so fortunately for them, I don't take their comments too seriously.

Not too hard to get a VIT build, like Insaniac said. I used to have one for the old jumps. And I agree with our wyverns needing Healing Breath IV but it would probably be limited, as you can do upwards of 1000+ HB III right now - outside of Abyssea, with proper gear set.

[Sekundes]

I too would like to see it buffed. I mean, I love drakes but not getting your aftermath from your primary damage ws really hurts this weapon's viability.

[Mookie]

Yeah cal's torment isn't to do damage. We already have Drakesbane for that. Cal's torment is situational to break through mobs def. Like if your fighting...Genbu ^^ or turtles. Thing is SE balances out all the ws. So alot of the great ws you see on emp weapons was given to weapons that didn't have a multi-crit ws. As dragoons already have it, doesn't make sense for it to get another.

[Stromgarde]

The problem is that it's terrible for that too. It only ignored 10% def at 100% TP, and at that rate you're better off spamming drakesbane anyway. Wheeling thrust may be horrible, but at least it ignores 50% def from the start.

[Silkavenger]

Just got this my Rohngomiant85 last night and it is freakin sweet! Haven't tested it in abyssea yet, and I'd like to change my WS geara bit, but things that get stabbed during aftermath get dead!

Camlann's itself was doing anywhere from 1400-2000 on Little mobs in Miz. Coast. Crits for 900ish. Once I did spirit jump 612 immediately followed by soul jump 1214. It just looked cool in the log. Often times you know when a mob is hit by a WS because it's health bar just suddenly disappears. Last night? No WS, it's just me critting or jumping, heh.

Can't wait to get the lvl 90 upgrade!

[Coldbrand]

I think they should do 100% ignores 50%, 200% ignores 75%, 300% ignores 100% armor. Why should we get shafted on our WS?

[Granny]

Ya, there is no doubt about it, we drg definatly should have Camlann's Torment ws balanced, as it stands it's makes Rohngomiant pointless for aftermath since draks will out damage, and it is NOT a situational weaponskill, it's a weaponskill in need of some love.

[Silkavenger]

After playing with Camlann's a bit inside abyssea I have to agree that its usefulness is suspect.

I'd be happy to see a greater amount of defense ignored per TP% starting at 50% def ignored at 100%TP.

I'd also be happy to see the aftermath duration lengthened to 1min per 100% (3 min at 300%). 1.5 min of aftermath is not enough when camlann's damage is so low inside abyssea.

Any adjustment to either balance this WS's damage or utility or both would be welcome.

[Granny]

Lets hope with the up coming weaponskill adjustments Camlann's Torment will see some MUCH needed love.

[Mookie]

Yeah Cal's Torment is definitely a situational ws. Triple damage ignoring def varying with tp. I'd only use it if the mob had high def and high evade. Drakesbane will outdamage Cal's torment everytime, especially in Abyssea where you have crit boosters if it lands all 4 hits. There's just no getting around that. Emp weaponskills weren't made to do damage for all jobs, it was to even out the inbalances. It gave multi-crit ws to all jobs that didn't have them. and it gave weird stuff to those that did have them.

[noodles355]

So alot of the great ws you see on emp weapons was given to weapons that didn't have a multi-crit ws. As dragoons already have it, doesn't make sense for it to get another.Kannagi, Blade: Jin. Ukonvasara, Raging Rush.

[Ophannus]

The point of Cal is probably to double Light after Cal> drakesbane light

[Ophannus]

Also Cal is probably more consistant and accurate than Drakesbane on HNMs. Presently most HNMs are DC to us since they were all 85ish. At 75 you would never think of using Drakesbane on Kirin or a Wyrm unless you were TP burning and had BRD songs and angon/dia3 up. Multi hit ws are just too inaccurate and deal too little damage on mobs that are several levels higher than you. When Abyssea wears off and they release new HNMs that are higher level than us without Atmas to use, you'll find that Cal will far outdamage Drakes. Or rather, Drakes damage will be heavily skewed on these mobs while Cal's damage will retain it's previous damage rating on these mobs. Chances are you'll see Drakes doing 800-1k at most on these harder new NMs while Cal will remain doing 1500-1700

[Anucris]

Yeah Cal's Torment is definitely a situational ws. Triple damage ignoring def varying with tp. I'd only use it if the mob had high def and high evade. Drakesbane will outdamage Cal's torment everytime, especially in Abyssea where you have crit boosters if it lands all 4 hits. There's just no getting around that. Emp weaponskills weren't made to do damage for all jobs, it was to even out the inbalances. It gave multi-crit ws to all jobs that didn't have them. and it gave weird stuff to those that did have them.

Problem is those great weapon skills come with aftermath. Drakesbane doesnt

[Amador]

The point of using Calmann's is to use it at 300%, to activate the aftermath. Then use multi-hit weapon skills. In this case, Drakesbane. Regardless of -anything-, the ODD Crits will still be insane damage. It's also consistent enough damage to warrant using it.

While in Abyssea it's viewed as a iffy WS to choose to use, outside it's not so bad. From the looks of the recent updates, it kind of points in the direction of: We will continue to increase WS damage output. If so, it's not long before Calmann's or other WS's compete with Drakesbane. Drakes is 1.0 fTP, due to 4 hit becomes considered 4.0 ftp.

Calmann's is 3.*(don't know the accurate decimal) however, once and if Calmann's hit's 4.0ftp, and or higher. Things will change. These weapons are not finalized. They're simply starting to blossom.

[Ophannus]

The fact that Camlann chains with Drakesbane to make light still means we can SC off it without using Sekka by just the virtue of the immense TP we get from new jumps. You could,infact do a 100% Camlann's followed by Soul/Spirit Jump and get enough TP(assuming no misses), pop meditate and instantly do a Drakesbane to close for light. By the time the light animation ends, you'd already have hit once giving you enough TP for another Camlann's to create a double light.

Summary: Camlann's probably isnt mean to have a higher damage potential than Drakesbane but be more consistant due to being one hit and defense ignoring and to open up more powerful self SC opportunities. It doesn't need to be an Ukko's Fury and outside Abyssea it may even out damage Ukkos Fury since Ukko's Fury's damage is largely based on if it crits or not. Outside Abyssea, without Atmas you wont see it crit as often whereas Camlann will remain consistent throughout. I don't see them increasing Camlann's damage at all because it's more of a utility WS.

It's all balanced. Drakesbane has the highest damage potential of our weapon skills but to compensate, it's damage potential is HIGHLY variable with a huge variance depending on if hits in the WS either hit, crit or miss. Camlann's has a higher accuracy and when it lands it will be generally consistant damage. The damage isn't as high as a full crit Drakesbane, but you'll find outside Abyssea that on new NMs like Voidwatch Drakesbane rarely fullcrits anyway without Atmas making Camlanns look more appealing.

[Granny]

Nah, no one is interested in getting a weak weaponskill, that is hardly situational no matter how someone "tries" to spin it. I still think Camlanns Torment needs a overhaul and I'm sure the "real" dragoon community who are actually interested in playing the job would agree too.

[noodles355]

Weak weaponskill. You're been playing in Abysse too long. Outside, on stuff that matters (90+ content) Camlann's is a strong WS. As the cap rises to 99, and they continue to add more difficult endgame monsters, it will continue to be useful.

Remember back to the days of early sky when our main WS of choice would be Wheeling Thrust, whereas our merit/xp WS would be Penta thrust. This is basically the same, our tough, high level NM WS is Camlann's, and our exp/merit/weak stuff WS is Drakesbane.

[Ophannus]

Basically what Noodles said. Try Drakesbane on some of the new Voidwatch NMs, you'll barely break 1k-1.5k if you're lucky and thats being generous with pDIF/Crits/Buffs/All hits landing etc. Camlann's ignores defense, has a high pDIF and is a single hit meaning it's perfect for mobs that have high def/eva rather than Drakes which is inconsistant since it relies on crits. Remember outside Abyssea, crits on Drakesbane are uncommon compared to the new Empyrean WS which have stupid incredibly high base crit rates. I typically see Camlann's from 'meh' geared DRGs doing 1500-1700 without much effort while a fully buffed Drakesbane with all the bells and whistle do anywhere from 500-2.2k on Voidwatch but that's a huge and inconsistent range. Also not to mention you can self SC light with Camlann's which makes it very useful.

[Granny]

Yes I somewhat see where your coming from, but compaired to many other emp weaponskils Camlann's is lacking a lot for a dd job like drg that weilds a 2h weapon with no viable job ability options from the main job itself to increase dmg except angon. Camlann's in my personal view needs a bit of a boost. Either make it a strong alternative to draks or increase the deffence ignored conciderably and make it a nice specialized ws for drg job against high deffence monsters. As it stands it is basicly just a 1 hit ws with 3.0 ftp other jobs have regular ws with just as much or more ftp and better ws mods than vit lol. Would be nice too if aftermath effect would actually be extended cus as it is I personaly think it doesnt last very long ><

[Ophannus]

It is weaker than other emps, but comparitevely speaking those other jobs don't have a 2h 4hit crit ws. WAR has Ukko's but Kings Fury/Raging Rush sucks. NIN has Hi, but Blade Jin is awful on HNMs outside abyssea, always has been. THF has Rudra Storm but besides Mercy Stroke, their only other good ws are lolsharkbite and Mandalic Stab. MNK has VS but Asuran Fists/Acetic Fury is lol on HNMs, expect like 600-800 from those. What's left? CDC is awesome but you're comparing it to other sword WS, Vorpal Blade/Atonement? lol. Camlann's sucks compared to other Empyrean but no other jobs that have good Empyrean WS have as strong of a WS as Drakesbane like DRG does. I doubt SE wants to give us 2 super strong WS. The only other job in a similar boat I guess would be PUP as Stringing Pummel is more or less the same as VS.

[Anucris]

Still theirs comes with aftermath. Drakes doesnt. But at least outside abyssea it can serve as a better ws for us to get aftermath with. Hopefully more content will lead us back out of abyssea.

[noodles355]

Drakesbane isn't super awesome on HNM either. It's a great WS for average and weaker stuff, but so is Raging Rush and such. On hard, high-def HNM Camlann's should be more consistant good damage than Ukko's.

Stop saying Camlann's is bad. It's not as useful at the moment because there's hardly any difficult stuff around, pretty much just new dynamis and voidwatch, but that doesn't make it bad. It makes it situational.

[Anucris]

I'm not saying it's bad I'm still working on my rhongo. Based on what you've seen I it necessary to change it to maybe -20%, -40%, -60%. Just to make it a lil stronger? Pple saying it needs to start at ignoring 50% seem desperate for a super ws.

[Anucris]

still happy with camlaan's?
just asking based on newer content that is out.. is it the best ws on the higher tier VWNM's and in legion? i know legion sucks now, but still someone has to have done it on drg.
if someone who has it can legitimately recommend getting it I may. soon as i finish up relic.

[Transmit]

You don't even need the WS to see it's topped by Stardiver.

3.0 ftp, 60% vit ignores 15% defense

vs

3.8~4.2ftp (depending on day) 100% str, raises everyones crit hit rate by 5%

[Anucris]

-_- gotta hate SE sometimes.. both of our uber weapon specific ws's suck.

[saevel]

Issue with CT is that ignores defense is just another way of saying attack boost. So on targets with higher defense while your not super buffed then there is an argument for CT. The moment you use stalwarts / bard songs / COR rolls then chunk Agnon and Dia, that ignores defense becomes meaningless and it's just a plain one hit 3.0fTP 60% VIT WS.

Vs Stardiver, 4 hits 0.75 fTP per hit that scales to 0.95 or higher (Moonshade / day effects) with a 100% STR WSC. All those COR / BRD / Item buffs and defense down debuffs will greatly raise SD's damage potential far past anything that CT can do. Heck it raise's it past what Shoha can do for a PLM SAMs. It becomes one of the better zerging WS's.

[Transmit]

CT would have a strong place if the ignore defense was worthwhile. 15% isnt much when you look at other WS's. Shoha adds somewhere between 35%~45% attack, old school Gekko was 100% attack. I mean even Wheeling Thrust was ignore 50% def.

[Ralos]

I'm working on my rhongomiont as well.... hate you chloris, but I started the trek for it because of the aftermath, not CT

[Anucris]

Gotta use CT for the aftermath right?

[Ophannus]

At least Camlann makes light with Drakesbane which is kind of neat, I guess.

[Anucris]

yeah this would be my main purpose for the weapon. especially in abyssea with vv on spirit linking. doing a double light or 2 seperate sc's within 20 seconds or so is pretty easy

[saevel]

CT would have a strong place if the ignore defense was worthwhile. 15% isnt much when you look at other WS's. Shoha adds somewhere between 35%~45% attack, old school Gekko was 100% attack. I mean even Wheeling Thrust was ignore 50% def.

I was trying to be kind to it. SE really dropped the ball on this WS, should of made the ignore def 50~75%. Would of made it useful vs ridiculously high defense targets.

[Dimi]

I just today noticed that Torcleaver's fTP is so much higher than Camlann's Torment's... And it scales with TP. :(
I like my Rhongomiant... but I wish its signature weaponskill wasn't so laughable.

[Ophannus]

It's just annoying how Camlann/Wheeling have "Ignores Defense varies with TP" but many weapon skills that SAM and DRK receive have this as a hidden effect IN ADDITION to "Damage varies with TP". So they can have a weapon skill which scales in damage with higher TP but also has a innate cRatio Attack Bonus. Dragoon should get an 'Ignores Defense" job trait that either ignores 100% Defense and proc's like 5-10% of the time similar to Kick Attacks/Triple Attack/Double Attack and can proc on Weapon Skills; or weaker traits that are always active that ignore 5-10% of Defense; similar to Subtle Blow/Store TP/Fencer etc. Dragoon really lacks in Attack because we don't have Berserk or Last Resort and we can't sub WAR because we lose out on Third Eye/Hasso/Meditate. So while DRKs can sub SAM because they have Last Resort(Which can be meritted to be better than Berserk) and WAR has berserk naturally and benefits from /SAM nicely, DRG is the only 2 handed melee job that has to CHOOSE between high attack and /SAM's benefits while other 2handed jobs get both.

Many DRK/SAM SAM/WAR and WAR/SAM I know talk about how they have like 1200+ attack when fully buffed and as DRG the best I can do as DRG/SAM is like 880ish with Food because I don't have berserk or Last Resort. Give DRG some kind of trait that ignores defense or a JA that boosts Attack significantly but reduces wyvern breath accuracy or something. Maybe even make it like Saber Dance, restricts breaths but gives Attack+25% that diminishes over time to be more balanced(would also let us take TP from wyvern using Spirit Link since breaths would be rrestricted, the wyvern's TP wouldn't be reset when we WS every few seconds.)

[Babekeke]

Many DRK/SAM SAM/WAR and WAR/SAM I know talk about how they have like 1200+ attack when fully buffed and as DRG the best I can do as DRG/SAM is like 880ish with Food because I don't have berserk or Last Resort.

Just wondering, does Spirit Surge add the wyvern's attack to our own, or just base stats? Not a fix by any means, but DRG can do a lot of damage during the 2 hour.

[Dathus]

If DRG had some sort of Berserk/LR I think we could come back as something that resembles a decent DD.

[TLGrunt]

Excuse the epic necrobump, but i figure I throw just a tad bit of light of using CT. In VW when I find myself seriously resisted (and i mean 2-3 digit "oh wtfman" dmg), when I spam wings for zerg sake my CTs pulls ahead, many times between 1k-1.4k. This is thanks to the 300tp maxed ignore def mod, also my aftermath ODD would sometimes shank my ws Dmg. CT and the Rhongo was built HNMs in mind for sure and star/drakes is clearly best for instances where monsters dont have anti piercing traits and hardcore defs. But dont bet on decent numbers @100% tp for CT, you neee to cap your tp for sure for it to be a good utility..... which is where my complaint lies. I wont always have a wing available and builing 300tp just to CT is not worth it. Definitely needs to be enhanced or give Drg a backbone to help enhance it's power with JA or traits.

[Neisan_Quetz]

That's just... terrible.

[saevel]

If your getting such low numbers, then get off your a$$ and throw an Angon, or were you one of those idiots who only merited it to 1/5 for "procing".

[Tsukino_Kaji]

If your getting such low numbers, then get off your a$$ and throw an Angon, or were you one of those idiots who only merited it to 1/5 for "procing".He has 5/5 Strafe.

[Zerich]

why would you make an empy for anything other than aftermath procs?

[Tsukino_Kaji]

why would you make an empy for anything other than aftermath procs?I was going to, but saw it was the same NMs as the H2H and said screw it.

[Zerich]

I was going to, but saw it was the same NMs as the H2H and said screw it.

yeah, it's still kinda sad with how underwhelming the weapon/ws combo is for drg :/

[saevel]

He has 5/5 Strafe.

Then either unmerit it, or unmerit something else and get 5/5 Agnon and Relic +2 hands. 25% defense down is no joke, by itself it's a 33.33% increase in attack to EVERYONE in the party / alliance. With Dia II it's basically auto-capping everyone's attack on everything but the hardest of the hard (53.84% attack boost). It's better then berserk even. Heck even without the relic +2 hands it's still 25% attack boost to everyone in the alliance.

So Fcking tired of DRG's and WAR's who don't merit their proper damage abilities. Screws everyone else in the alliance.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

You realaize I have no idea who you're talking about right?

And btw you mean "+3" or augmented, +2 doesn't have angon. lol
Don't want to go around confusing people now do we?

[saevel]

You realaize I have no idea who you're talking about right?

And btw you mean "+3" or augmented, +2 doesn't have angon. lol
Don't want to go around confusing people now do we?

It was assumed to be augmented as I mentioned using it with Agnon.

More of a rant about people who don't set their proper support abilities, then later shrug their shoulders when their called upon to use them.