Creating "Job Abilities" for Throwing, Shield, Parrying, and Blocking

[kingfury]

In an effort to get more out of the Throwing, Shield, Parrying, and Guarding Combat skills during gameplay, could it be possible to add another layer of "Job Abilities" that enhance or bolster their effects? Although "Job Ability" usually relates to specific jobs within FFXI, for a lack of a better term, I'm using the term Job Ability to describe the nature of these abilities. Technically, these would be available to all those with the appropriate Combat skill regardless of Main or Sub job. Perhaps "Enhancing Ability" would be more fitting. They wouldn't be based on TP, and wouldn't need any specific full weapon skill-like animation to display their effects. Well no "newly designed" animations at least ^^. The current job ability animations could simply be refitted to suite these abilities if needed.

It has been suggested before over the years to add weapon skills to things like throwing, and I'm not really sure of the reasons given as to why they can't be, but rather than a ws, perhaps adding Enhancing Abilities that enhance the Throwing experience would be a more logical (easy to implement) approach to such a request. For instance:
Throwing:
Like all the other Combat Skills listed above, throwing could be enhanced through a number of methods that perhaps have 3-5 tiers based on combat skill level. Instead of seeing something like a WS animation based on TP, a list of Throwing-based JA's would now be nestled within our "Ranged Attack" option of which to choose from. Some examples of the "enhanced" Throwing could be:

-Doubled Mark: Causes each of your throwing attacks to hit a target twice. (Timed duration of effect) »Doubled Mark Example (http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b167/soulchld4/CombatSkillJAs-DoubledMark-Web.jpg)
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b167/soulchld4/CombatSkillJAs-DoubledMark-Web.jpg
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-Goliath Shot: Causes your next throwing attack to be a head shot that may stun or cause amnesia. (Instant Single use) »Goliath Shot Example (http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b167/soulchld4/CombatSkillJAs-GoliathShot-Web.jpg)
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b167/soulchld4/CombatSkillJAs-GoliathShot-Web.jpg
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-Toe Shot: Causes your next throwing attack to be an attack that may bind or weigh a target down. (Instant Single use) »Toe Shot Example (http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b167/soulchld4/CombatSkillJAs-ToeShot-Web.jpg)
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b167/soulchld4/CombatSkillJAs-ToeShot-Web.jpg

Defending:
Alternatively, a new button named "Defending" could be added to the "Abilities" menu to house the Shield, Parrying, and Guarding Enhancement Abilities (or EA's).

I believe PLDs should remain masters of all things shield, so the possible Shield EA's would in no way belittle the prowess of these masters of blocking. Instead, perhaps EA's that simply bolster the effects of blocking for the non PLDs and PLDs alike. Examples could be:

-Shield retaliation: Allows you to reflect damage taken from a successful shield block. (Timed duration of effect) »Shield Retaliation Example (http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b167/soulchld4/CombatSkillJAs-ShieldRetaliation-Web.jpg)
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b167/soulchld4/CombatSkillJAs-ShieldRetaliation-Web.jpg
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-Blinding Shield: Uses the sunlight to reflect a blinding light. Effective with shields that contain metal. (Instant single use) »Blinding Shield Example (http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b167/soulchld4/CombatSkillJAs-BlindingShield-Web.jpg)
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b167/soulchld4/CombatSkillJAs-BlindingShield-Web.jpg
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-Shield Trust: Enhances shield block rate. (Timed duration of effect)

*Note: The duration of these Enhancement Abilities could be relatively very short compared to most standard JA timers, with fair recast timers to uphold game balance.


Parrying and Guarding EA's would follow a similar suite in terms of enhancing their effectiveness. Again, these are just some suggestions that might bring these combat skills to the forefront of battle more frequently and possibly add more battle strategy to the mix.

Thanks for listening Devs /salute
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**Edit: (For more detailed description)**

My suggestion for "Enhancing Abilities" is just a spring board foundation for adding new life and usefulness to Shield, Parrying, Throwing and Guarding skills. Think of these abilities as starter points for creating new and unique ways to possibly enhance gameplay for numbers of Jobs in FFXI, not just a call for trying to change game code/mechanics. Similar to how Atmas from Abyssea function since they're not job specific, try to imagine these abilities as though they were Atmas that enhance Throwing, Guarding, Parrying, and Shield performance you could turn on and off at will for a time. Then try to imagine what kind of enhancements would make them worthwhile to use.

Damage is only one piece of the possible endless puzzle of enhancements that could be devised for bolstering these skills. "Usefulness" from weapons/abilities/gear/items in this game does not only find their definitive qualities in how much damage can be created from using them. Think outside of that logic for a second, and consider other types of usefulness for the skills in question.

And for those that have repeated the similarities of some of these enhancements, yes, I realize that the spell Reprisal has similar qualities, but the point from the OP is to make them available to other jobs via skill level. PLDs would simply benefit from from the two abilities I suggested in that they would have an added boost to what Reprisal can do. Again, it's no different than a PLD being able to cast Flash on a target as well as use Flash Nova with a club to do the same thing. Similarly, a WAR having Berserk to enhance attack as well as Warcry. Having multiple ways to accomplish a similar/same effect is nothing new to the mix of FFXI.

The biggest point here, again, is that other jobs with the appropriate skill levels would now have new life and functionality when using a shield vs the current mundane and vary unrewarding functionality present today. Equip, and hope it procs. This can be easily changed without recoding the current systems simply by adding enhancements that bring these skills to life. I've only suggested 3 for Throwing and Shield, that's not to say with more planning and creativity even more diverse and unique abilities can't be added to the list.
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Additional Suggestions from throughout the thread:

Enhancement Ability ——— Suggested by ——— Description
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Throwing:
*(Multiple ideas) ——— AyinDygra ——— (Read full descriptions from post #25 (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/8178-Creating-Job-Abilities-for-Throwing-Shield-Parrying-and-Blocking?p=114168&viewfull=1#post114168))

•"Thorn in the Side" - Throw a Shuriken at a spot that is hard to reach, creating great annoyance. (Provoke-like effect and Damage over Time, recast 30sec)
•"Armor Wedge" - Lodge a Shuriken in the enemy's body so those attacking the Shuriken cause extra damage to the enemy.
•"Shadow Shuriken" - For the duration, you have a chance of throwing an extra Shuriken (no ammo consumed) for each Utsusemi shadow active.
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*(Multiple ideas) ——— Karbuncle ——— (Read full descriptions from post #34 (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/8178-Creating-Job-Abilities-for-Throwing-Shield-Parrying-and-Blocking?p=114259&viewfull=1#post114259))

•"Brain Spike"- Additional Effect: Amnesia. This shuriken, While it will not make up for the damage of lost swings, Might be useful for pulling, Have the Amnesia last up to ~1minute, and you have a method of pulling that prevents most/all Exp mobs from Being able to TP.
•"Silence Shuriken"- Additional Effect: Silence. This one, Like the above, Won't make up for lose TP/DMG For attack rounds, But if used for pulling on a casting mob, Might save your shadows from Diaga II or Poisonga II (which they love to cast).
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•"Syphoned Mark" ——— Kingfury ——— Enhances Throwing by causing your next throwing attack to drain either TP, MP, or HP. (Instant Single Use) ( From post #127 (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/8178-Creating-Job-Abilities-for-Throwing-Shield-Parrying-and-Blocking?p=133880&viewfull=1#post133880))
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Shield:

•"Shield Slam" ——— Akujima ——— An upgraded more powerful version of Shield Bash, that requires a Tower Shield. You knock back the opponent, and reduce their TP (kind of like demoralize. Not inhibit, but reduce). This would also be animated with a huge slam, kind of like the Weapon Skill "Shoulder Tackle" and would also inflict a decent amount of DMG, and be able to crit as well.( From post #122 (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/8178-Creating-Job-Abilities-for-Throwing-Shield-Parrying-and-Blocking?p=117760&viewfull=1#post117760))
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Parrying:

•"Riposte" ——— Kuporeid ——— A riposte is a parry that moves straight into an attack. In the game, this could be implemented similarly to Monks' counterattacks, except it would require a parry to activate.(Read more from post #107 (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/8178-Creating-Job-Abilities-for-Throwing-Shield-Parrying-and-Blocking?p=115989&viewfull=1#post115989))
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Guarding:

•"Submission Wall" ——— Kingfury ——— Enhances Guarding by punishing an attacker through the unlocking of an ancient martial arts technique that hardens ones' muscles to the point that rivals stone. The sudden fear of further self inflicted damage imposed on the attacker instantly causes doubts as to whether they should stop or continue attacking. Adds additional Earth damage (akin to how Earth Spikes would work) to successful Guard. Inflicts Killer effect upon target. (Timed duration of effect) ( From post #126 (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/8178-Creating-Job-Abilities-for-Throwing-Shield-Parrying-and-Blocking?p=126213&viewfull=1#post126213))
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•"Fluid Wall" ——— Kingfury ——— Enhances Guarding by unlocking an ancient martial arts technique that allows the user to skillfully mold and adjust to physical attacks as if they were like water. Reduces physical damage by absorbing a portion of the attack from a successful Guard. Adds additional Water damage (akin to how Water Spikes would work) to successful guard. (Timed duration of effect) ( From post #127 (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/8178-Creating-Job-Abilities-for-Throwing-Shield-Parrying-and-Blocking?p=133880&viewfull=1#post133880))
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[JiltedValkyrie]

I'd personally take away the shield JAs from Paladin since an Ochain PLD with those abilities would be nearly invincible. Maybe give them to RDM?

[kingfury]

^^ yeah, but I'd say PLDs deserve it. They already have to share their Emp. wpn with RDM and BLU, so I'd opt to let them shine with the one thing no other job can match them at /

[Sama]

Maybe give them to RDM?

I would give them to the spartan XD

Actually, I think SE have just about all things that works very close to your ideas...

Double Mark - Double Shot?
Goliath Shot - SA on throwing?
Toe Shot - Shadowbind?
Shield retaliation - Reprisal?
Blinding Shield - Flash?
Shield Trust - Reprisal again?

I thought SE is going to add critical effect on ranger /ra I need to confirm first tho.

But the shield part is so redundant and could be very tedious in my opinion, it's not something new, but it could be a great add for PLD to further enhanced the job play tho if you are into PLD.

[kingfury]

I would give them to the spartan XD
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lol ^^


Actually, I think SE have just about all things that works very close to your ideas...
Double Mark - Double Shot?
Goliath Shot - SA on throwing?
Toe Shot - Shadowbind?
Shield retaliation - Reprisal?
Blinding Shield - Flash?
Shield Trust - Reprisal again?
I thought SE is going to add critical effect on ranger /ra I need to confirm first tho.
But the shield part is so redundant and could be very tedious in my opinion, it's not something new, but it could be a great add for PLD to further enhanced the job play tho if you are into PLD.
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Yep that's sort've the aim of my suggestion. To feel similar to some of the things we have floating around already. ^^ These Abilities would of course be able to cross job lines however, allowing for all those with the appropriate skill to have access to these wonderful enhancements in an effort to maybe increase the use and versatility of these "Slow to proc"(for most) Combat skills.

I realize Reprisal tackles two of the above mentioned abilities, but similar to how some WS's can Blind or Stun a target, there's never really been rule against having multiple ways to skin a cat in FFXI lol. ^^ Similar to how a WHM has two ways to Flash a target now-a-days with both ws & spell, a PLD would simply have two ways to do the same.

The duration would again play a big factor in upholding overall game balance I believe when designing these enhancements. Some of these could be considered among the list of "Good thing I had it or I would have been toast" abilities I would think. ^^ Like Martyr on WHM.

[Glamdring]

As to the throwing WS, I think that goes all the way back to the original design of the game where range was the only job to get ranged weapon WS at all. They later gave the marksmanship ones to Cor as well, since their primary weapon is supposed to be the gun. I think the throwing was left out because throwing weapons are NOT a ranger's primary weapon.

As to shield, I agree paladin is the shield master and should get the lion's share of shield abilities. HOWEVER, War is a close 2nd on shield, and a few other jobs have decent shield skills, they should get some but not all shield abilities, similar to how several jobs can equip a certain weapon, but generally only 1-2 can use ALL WS for that weapon.

The biggest problem remains the difficulty in skilling defensive skills other than evasion. I have yet to acheive the skill-up Prowess or to obtain a Prousse Ring, so I don't know how well these address the issues with parry, guard (and for non-tanks that get the skill) shield. Just for the novelty value, I want to see how well my character actually functions with capped parry, guard or shield because I've never seen 1st-hand what it's like to be playing a character capped in any of those.

[Zyeriis]

I always felt there should be throwing ninjutsu rather than weaponskills or job abilities but, that's just me.

[Akujima]

I like your Idea's on throwing. Also improving Sange and adding decent DMG throwing weapons would help alot.

EDIT: I also like the "Defending" menu addition, would be really interesting to see something like that! Awesome creative idea's man.

[Sama]

-Shield retaliation: Allows you to reflect damage taken from a successful shield block. (Timed duration of effect)
-Blinding Shield: Uses the sunlight to reflect a blinding light. Effective with shields that contain metal. (Instant single use)
-Shield Trust: Enhances shield block rate. (Timed duration of effect)[/INDENT]


With some new animations these will make PLD shines~ go spartan go~

[kingfury]

I like your Idea's on throwing. Also improving Sange and adding decent DMG throwing weapons would help alot.

EDIT: I also like the "Defending" menu addition, would be really interesting to see something like that! Awesome creative idea's man.
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/Agreed and thank you for the support of the suggestion /salute

[AyinDygra]

I like the idea of expanding on these basic abilities, since they have really gotten very little attention from SE aside from shields. Currently, the innate skills jobs are given for damage mitigation are only really ever useful on weak monsters where it really doesn't matter that you have those abilities anyway (in most cases).

Having generic defensive commands based on defensive skills is an interesting thought. However, tailoring defensive options to each job is probably a better way to keep balance and cater to their individual needs and play styles. For those who think more shield skills will overpower "Ochain Paladins"... Balancing a job should not be dictated by the best possible gear they can use. That's a gear issue that does not impact every single member of a job.

Shield Skill
Jobs with Shield Skill: Paladin, Warrior, Beastmaster, Thief, Red Mage, White Mage
It would make sense that each of these jobs would have their own unique take on how they make use of shields.


Paladin:
Main source of defense. Constantly using the shield for multiple actions. They already have Shield Mastery, Shield Defense Bonus, and Shield Bash. Your suggestion for a shield-based blind is a good one. Shield Retaliation sounds interesting. Shield Trust could use some tweaking.

Job Ability: Brace
Level 50
Recast: 2min
Duration: 1min or until the next special attack of the enemy.
Knowing a powerful attack is imminent, the Paladin braces for impact. This would ensure blocking a special attack (TP moves of monsters) with the shield, and a higher amount of damage is reduced. In addition, all hits taken while "Cover"ing a specific party member would be "braced" since the Paladin knows exactly what they're getting themselves into.

Job Trait: Deflection
Occasionally, when attacks are blocked by a Paladin's shield, they are completely deflected.
(Damage = 0, like before the Shield changes)
Tiers, level, (percent chance of Deflection)
Deflection I: 25: 3%
Deflection II: 50: 6%
Deflection III: 75: 9%
Deflection IV: 99: 12%
(too high? numbers can always be tweaked)
Warrior:
Really, most warriors use two-handed weapons, but if they really want to take the defensive road, we'd probably have to look to the Vikings as they swung one-handed axes and used shields. Spiked shields would likely be preferred, so they still have offense on their shield arm.

Job Ability: Aggressive Defense
When "Defender" is active, all Shield-blocked hits trigger a retaliatory shield attack. All hits that make it past "Shield block" can trigger a retaliatory shield attack. (this ability can be used at the same time as Retaliation)

Job Ability: Shield Ram
Warriors use their shield to ram into their opponent causing damage and a knock back effect with a short stun. The further away this is used, the stronger the damage and the longer the stun duration. (animation: like a ground-level Dragoon jump or flee.)
Beastmaster:
Shields would likely be most useful to Beastmasters as they try to tame a beast that suddenly turned on them. I'm made to think of a lion tamer with a chair and whip, or police dog trainer in full padded gear, trying to deal with attack dogs. In addition, they might use them like the capes of Matadors to mislead a beast into wasting their attacks by striking the air.

Job Ability: Trainer's Rebuke
For the duration, when the Beastmaster blocks an attack, the enemy temporarily stops auto-attacking. Has a chance to wipe out the enemy's current TP. Combat may be ended by the "tame" ability more easily.

Job Ability: Matador
Draw a monster's attention to your shield and massively increase your evasion rate until the enemy hits. This hit will be blocked by your shield. Increases enmity.
Thief:
The shield is not commonly associated with thieves. However, giving it some thought, it could be useful.

Job Ability: Covert Attack
For the duration, they use their shield to hide the vector of their intended attacks from view of their enemy. This makes it nearly impossible to counterattack, dodge, guard or block these attacks with a shield. Each Covert Attack has a chance to do damage equal to "Sneak Attack." This does not increase accuracy, it reduces the opponent's chance to activate their defensive abilities.
Red Mage:
This job should make good use of the Shield. Having taken on the mantle of the "Mystic Knight" of past games, they are still stuck being primarily mages. They clearly have the potential to be great magical tanks, as opposed to Paladins being the physical tanks.

Job Ability: Magic Shield
Duration: 1min or until the next single target spell hits them.
When a single target spell is cast at the player, their shield will occasionally reflect the spell back at the caster.
* Requires a shield. (not the same as the Reflect spell)
* Will reflect healing spells as well as damaging.

Job Ability: Active Spikes
When a Red Mage has elemental spikes active, they will occasionally strike out on their own, without requiring the Red Mage to take a hit.

White Mage:
Well suited to the front lines, the White Mage has many reasons to make use of their shields.

Job Ability: Shield of Light
For the duration, all hits blocked by the shield trigger a reactive healing effect on the entire party.


Guard Skill
Jobs with Guard Skill: Monk, Puppetmaster
While the skill itself is great in concept, its infrequent activation gives it little relevance to any serious discussion about its utility. Compounding the problem is how hard it is to increase the skill level. Also annoying is that we have to judge its activation based on how much damage we took, or if we evaded an enemy's TP attack, rather than a clear message that Guard is what just helped us.


* Guard needs to activate much more often against enemies where guarding would matter.
* Please change the combat log to indicate "Guarded" and other special combat rounds (like kicks).
* When you guard an enemy TP attack, instead of showing a miss, let us know Guard activated.

Monk:
I suggested this in the Monk forum, but it's fully applicable here. Notice the enhancement to Guard:


Job Ability: Iron Shirt (stance)
Level 50
Duration: 5min
Recast: 5min
This is a tanking stance that entirely switches Monk's focus from attacks to defense. While it reduces a Monk's damage capabilities, it makes up for it with reduced enmity loss and higher enmity gains, so it does not have to rely on damage to keep the enemy's attention.
* Unable to cast spells at all.
* Cannot use "Footwork"
* Guard rate increased.
* Kickattacks disabled, kick attack rate added to guard rate.
* Reduce Damage Taken by 20%
* Reduce enmity loss from taking damage.
* Chance to stun enemy when their attack is guarded.
* During Iron Shirt, the "Boost" ability changes effect to "Raise Defense" until the Monk takes unguarded damage.
When Iron Shirt is activated or wears off, Boost's effect wears off.
* Increase enmity gain (especially from "boost")
* Reduce Chakra's recast when used during Iron Shirt.

Puppetmaster:
Having higher agility than Monks, Puppetmasters can potentially see a higher activation rate of this defensive skill. An additional twist that I'd put on Puppetmaster's version would be new automaton heads.

Thread about new Automaton Heads. (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/738-New-toys-to-play-with.?p=3486&viewfull=1#post3486) These heads are what would give the Puppetmaster their unique ways to defend themselves, specifically, the "Clockwork Sentinel" head.

An ability besides that head:
Job Ability: Loyal Automaton
For the duration, if the Automaton is in melee range of the master, the Automaton will intercept incoming enemy attacks and take "guarded" damage.


Parrying Skill
16/20 jobs have parry skill.
This one would take a bit more work to improve. However, jobs that spring to mind as being capable with melee blades are Red Mage (E skill is so wrong for a magical fencing job) only matched by Samurai and Corsair (swashbuckling pirates), then Ninja, Thief, Dancer, Paladin (pretty high up there in parry potential, I'd say) and Warrior (they'll manage to block a few attacks as they swing away wildly.

Evasion Skill
All 20 jobs have evasion skill.
Hardest job to keep unique, but most of the work has been done already, giving Ninjas shadows, the ultimate form of evasion, Thieves with very high evasion skill and gear and Dancers with very high evasion as well. Monk gets Dodge, and Samurai gets Third Eye. I don't see much room for improvement. This is one of the most useful Combat Skills in the game. An additional benefit of this skill is that it completely evades damage, rather than just reducing damage done.

Throwing Skill
My thought process on Throwing Weapon abilities is a bit different from yours. I go into this topic in a different thread here. (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/2936-Throwing-WS?p=102776&viewfull=1#post102776) To summarize, I think there is a great opportunity to add a unique aspect to each job with Throwing weapon skill, so I put forth a rather in-depth list of the additions I'd make to each job in this respect.

I may update this post with additional ideas in the future.

[kingfury]

@AyinDygra:
A reply of that magnitude with this much feedback deserves an /applaud ^^

Very cool feedback and some great concepts.

[kingfury]

**EDIT TO OP**


-Toe Shot: Causes your next throwing attack to be an attack that may bind or weigh a target down. (Instant Single use) *Toe Shot Example* (http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b167/soulchld4/CombatSkillJAs-ToeShot-Web.jpg)
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-Shield retaliation: Allows you to reflect damage taken from a successful shield block. (Timed duration of effect) *Shield Retaliation Example* (http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b167/soulchld4/CombatSkillJAs-ShieldRetaliation-Web.jpg)
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-Blinding Shield: Uses the sunlight to reflect a blinding light. Effective with shields that contain metal. (Instant single use) *Blinding Shield Example* (http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b167/soulchld4/CombatSkillJAs-BlindingShield-Web.jpg)

[wish12oz]

Throwing is stupid, not useful, and can't be fixed.
SE also said already they cannot add throwing WS's

Here's the problem with throwing:

Shuriken have a 192 delay.
Kannagi+Kamome have a combined (210+180) 390 delay.
When you hit the delay reduction cap of 80%, this becomes a new delay of 78.
78+78=156, you get slightly more then 2 melee attacks rounds per throw.(throwing delay is 192)
with apoc, /war, brutal, eponas you have triple attack+18%, double attack+18%, which means 54% of the time, you get an extra attack per melee round.
So at +54% melee attacks per round, every time you attack, you get 1 extra attack, because you attack twice every round.
you get slightly more then 2 attack rounds per throw, you get 3 attacks per round.
Your throwing damage needs to be slightly better then 6 melee attacks and give as much tp as 6 melee attacks to be on par with just meleeing.
Throwing comes no where near either of these 2 things, and never will, it's impossible unless they make haste affect ranged attacks.

Even sange is garbage, because it makes you miss 3-8 attacks rounds to use it, and doesn't give as much tp or do as much damage as 3 attack rounds, your ideas for throwing JAs are in the same boat. Except they stun/bind/gravity/whatever, problem there is that those things are entirely not useful. A stun would be useful, but only if it's 100% proc, which yours is not.

EDIT: shield retaliation is the same as that spell I can't remember he name of, except it doesn't increase block rate.

EDIT2:: Maybe I should be more specific, I think I should.

It [INDENT]-Doubled Mark: Causes each of your throwing attacks to hit a target twice. (Timed duration of effect) *Doubled Mark Example* (http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b167/soulchld4/CombatSkillJAs-DoubledMark-Web.jpg)


Even with 100% DA, throwing would not do as much damage as simply meleeing, (see above math for how much a throwing attack needs to do, 6 melee swings worth of damage and tp gain) and it would also take qirmiz tathlum away. Any JA that is designed to increase your damage output, needs to do more damage then simply meleeing, or it's not useful. This JA, is not useful, throwing, is not useful. Even with this JA, you would do more damage and gain more tp simply meleeing, maybe if it made you throw 6 shurikens at once, it would stand a chance, but 2? no way.

This brings us into another point, of just how broken you need to make throwing in order to keep up with meleeing, I just did a glavoid, 75% crit rate, 70 damage melee/hit average, 200 melee/crit average. thats 4.5 crits and 1.5 normal hits to throw 1 shuriken, or 1005 melee damage, and I also would miss out on the TP from those hits, which is 1/3rd of a blade: hi, which was 3.5k average, or another 1100 damage. So basically, by throwing that 1 shuriken, I lost 1000 melee damage and 1100 ws damage, if that shuriken didn't do 2100 damage, it wasn't worth using.

The damage numbers for glavoid were serverly unbuffed btw, give me stalwarts/good food/berserk/minuet/dia/chaos roll/anything etc type of buffs, and they'd be easily be doubled or tripled. The only buff I had was I used a mithkabob, didn't even use berserk.

[Habiki]

Throwing is stupid, not useful, and can't be fixed.
SE also said already they cannot add throwing WS's

Here's the problem with throwing:

Shuriken have a 192 delay.
Kannagi+Kamome have a combined (210+180) 390 delay.
When you hit the delay reduction cap of 80%, this becomes a new delay of 78.
78+78=156, you get slightly more then 2 melee attacks rounds per throw.(throwing delay is 192)
with apoc, /war, brutal, eponas you have triple attack+18%, double attack+18%, which means 54% of the time, you get an extra attack per melee round.
So at +54% melee attacks per round, every time you attack, you get 1 extra attack, because you attack twice every round.
you get slightly more then 2 attack rounds per throw, you get 3 attacks per round.
Your throwing damage needs to be slightly better then 6 melee attacks and give as much tp as 6 melee attacks to be on par with just meleeing.
Throwing comes no where near either of these 2 things, and never will, it's impossible unless they make haste affect ranged attacks.

Even sange is garbage, because it makes you miss 3-8 attacks rounds to use it, and doesn't give as much tp or do as much damage as 3 attack rounds, your ideas for throwing JAs are in the same boat. Except they stun/bind/gravity/whatever, problem there is that those things are entirely not useful. A stun would be useful, but only if it's 100% proc, which yours is not.

EDIT: shield retaliation is the same as that spell I can't remember he name of, except it doesn't increase block rate.

EDIT2:: Maybe I should be more specific, I think I should.


Even with 100% DA, throwing would not do as much damage as simply meleeing, (see above math for how much a throwing attack needs to do, 6 melee swings worth of damage and tp gain) and it would also take qirmiz tathlum away. Any JA that is designed to increase your damage output, needs to do more damage then simply meleeing, or it's not useful. This JA, is not useful, throwing, is not useful. Even with this JA, you would do more damage and gain more tp simply meleeing, maybe if it made you throw 6 shurikens at once, it would stand a chance, but 2? no way.

This brings us into another point, of just how broken you need to make throwing in order to keep up with meleeing, I just did a glavoid, 75% crit rate, 70 damage melee/hit average, 200 melee/crit average. thats 4.5 crits and 1.5 normal hits to throw 1 shuriken, or 1005 melee damage, and I also would miss out on the TP from those hits, which is 1/3rd of a blade: hi, which was 3.5k average, or another 1100 damage. So basically, by throwing that 1 shuriken, I lost 1000 melee damage and 1100 ws damage, if that shuriken didn't do 2100 damage, it wasn't worth using.

Why does it even have to keep up with melee damage if your just using it to pull a mob with some extra damage compared to a boomerrang or chakram. If Utsusemi: San ever gets added i can also see Sange getting more use, why should nin just be limited to melee. Also you should stop casting shadows wish12oz cause it takes away from your dmg potential .

[wish12oz]

Why does it even have to keep up with melee damage if your just using it to pull a mob with some extra damage compared to a boomerrang or chakram. If Utsusemi: San ever gets added i can also see Sange getting more use, why should nin just be limited to melee. Also you should stop casting shadows wish12oz cause it takes away from your dmg potential .

I pretty much don't cast shadows, thanks for pointing out why. In just normal meleeing gear, most mobs acc on you is below 30% anyway, I can easily cure how much damage they do to me with a single WHM without anything beyond atmas.

And why would you pull with a throwing weapon? That's just silly. Provoke would be faster, and kurayami or hojo would be the same speed, but actually do something useful.

Sange makes you miss 3-8 attacks rounds by using it, until it does more damage then 3 attack rounds, it's not worth using. Why would you use a JA designed just to do damage, when it does less then meleeing? Please explain how that makes any sense at all.


EDIT::: At no point did I say ninja needed to be all about melee damage onry. I just pointed out how broken you need to make throwing to make it useful, and why realistically SE will never do it. But hey, if you wanna go RP your favorite Naruto character in FFXI, go right ahead, nothing is stopping you, there's even an NPC or two that will sell you shurikens if you can't find a crafter and some materials.
だってばよ！

[kingfury]

@ wish12oz:
Well luckily there's no argument here since I believe there's just been a misunderstanding about what I'm asking for. That, and you're thinking about throwing's potential in the wrong way as a whole.

The OP is suggesting "Enhancing Abilities" that would bolster the skills in question, not weapon skills.

"It has been suggested before over the years to add weapon skills to things like throwing, and I'm not really sure of the reasons given as to why they can't be, but rather than a ws, perhaps adding Job/Enhancing Abilities that enhance the Throwing experience would be a more logical (easy to implement) approach to such a request."
On the topic of Throwing being useless, it just sounds like you haven't discovered it's proper use and potential. Throwing is in no way designed to match your damage output from melee attacks or TP gain, so that's the first misconception that needs to be address.

*Throwing is 1st, a means to "Agro" monsters for the Provokeless and Non-spell casting job types. For those jobs that have no means of grabbing the attention of monsters other than running up to them and engaging, Throwing allows them the functionality pull from afar, as well as provides some TP for the puller that successfully nails the target.

*Secondly, don't dismiss the TP you gain from a successful throwing attack. Rather than starting from a possible 0 TP at the start of a fight, depending on the weapon, you could start with some TP before even engaging the target and build on from there getting you to 100 faster. In another case, you could be sitting at 90'ish TP before you pull, and potentially reach 100 TP before you engage the monster allowing for an instant WS as you actually begin the fight.
On the topic of making these skills "useful", that's the point of the Thread. The Devs could include new throwing weapons with specific stats that push these possible enhancing abilities even further. Imagine a throwing weapon that had drain stats pegged onto it and had a decent drain amount. The double attack on "Doubled Mark" would pull in some nice HP/MP/TP potential at that point. Especially if it was "Drains TP" ^^. You just have to think outside the box, and pop in some creativity with the mix of ideas.

[Zyeriis]

With the rise of "instant cast" on the horizon (see: apocalypse atma, ironic), I see little reason to not adjust consumable throwing items to be instantly thrown with delay between throwing (and allowing multiple shurikens to be thrown simultaneously). Provoke also doesn't have the same range as other things, even if it is instant, provoke isnt as effective as some people seem to think for pulling (since you have to be closer to do it). Telling a ninja they shouldn't use shurikens should be like telling a samurai they shouldn't have a zanshin build. It should still be possible.

Also, kingfury changes signatures too much. /stops poking the bear.

[kingfury]

@ Zyerlis:
lol I didn't know there was a hidden rule on how long it should stay the same ^^ I have a lot of FFXI art I've made over the years! >< Until they make galleries for us to use, /shrugs lol

[Zyeriis]

@ Zyerlis:
lol I didn't know there was a hidden rule on how long it should stay the same ^^ I have a lot of FFXI art I've made over the years! >< Until they make galleries for us to use, /shrugs lol
It was a joke about how people complained about your sig before, and now you change it constantly...(conformist! :Q)

[kingfury]

It was a joke about how people complained about your sig before, and now you change it constantly...(conformist! :Q)
----------
I know ^^

True strike >< /stagger

[wish12oz]

@ wish12oz:
On the topic of Throwing being useless, it just sounds like you haven't discovered it's proper use and potential.

It's proper use and potential are for low level damage dealing and hate keeping, nothing more. Once you hit 60 you need to let it go and move on and accept that it's inferior to everything else you can do. Pulling is better done with provoke/kurayami/hojo, those are better and serve a purpose beyond tp+2 which is just lol. Status effect shurikens? I'll bring a RDM if I need something like that, or cast them myself. Throwing has no place for ninjas above level 60, there's no point and no reason you can give to make it worth using.

New JA's for throwing suffer from the fact you're giving up 2-3 attack rounds just using them from the JA use delay, unless they have ranged delay added into them, then you can give up even more, but if they don't meet the damage and tp gained from those 2-3 melee attack rounds, guess what! that's right, it would be useless. Also the fact you would have to carry shurikens, and waste inventory/gil on them, and unless the damage they inflict makes it significantly worth it, no one will bother, and no one bothering would make it a waste of SE's time to add.

Throwing is dead once you reach 60, there's no way SE will ever add anything worthwhile to make it usable or matter. However, if you want to propose JA's and idea's that could be implemented that make it worthwhile, go right ahead, but I'm not going to let weak useless stuff get by without criticizing it to hell and calling it useless, last thing ninja needs is another POS yonin/ininn useless set of JAs added so SE can feel like they did something good for ninja when all they did was waste their time coding some BS JA's that weren't even useful.

How about if we're going to propose JA's and abilities for NIN, we address the things that make NIN useless. Like very high level mobs where your katanas do jacknothing for damage, your acc is poor, and your evasion is useless, instead of thinking throwing can somehow be saved. Let's address the real problems with ninja, and the reason it was a bottom barrel DD for years before abyssea came out.

[Zyeriis]

Se is NEVER going to do <insert thing you disagree with>!
Abyssea never happened.

Seriously wish, your "arguments" are almost always stuck in the mindset of how things are and not in the possibility of it being completely different. "It's useless now so no matter what they do, it will still be useless." is your argument?

"I don't want this because I want something else" is the most selfish argument ever and holds no water. If you want something else, go post somewhere else about that something else. It is not a legitimate reason to not do something that someone else wants.

I'm just going throw around some more generalizing sentences that define what you're saying and be done.

"You're giving up 2-3 attack rounds right now from using throwing, so they can't possibly adjust that to make up for the difference, <insert no reason as to why they can't other than they haven't yet>"

"They take up inventory space!" Alright, I won't carry around weapons at all either, or gear swaps, or ninja tools, or a scroll of instant warp, because they take up inventory space.

"They cost gil!" Lolwut? Gil is useful?

Btw, "it's proper use and potential are for low level damage dealing" is an opinion on the matter not an argument. "But that's all they're good for, right now" does not mean that was their intended use, you do not speak for the dev team.

"I'll bring a RDM for status effects" Alright, because RDM has every possible status effect available in the game, there is no way there can be status effects they don't have. You also always have a RDM with you everywhere you go? Alright, so I guess you don't carry around enfeebling ninjutsu tools (chonofuda) to "pull with" because it's a better way to pull with because it enfeebles as per your own words? Then why do you need a RDM, oh right, they have MORE enfeebles and better versions of your enfeebles. You shouldn't bother with ninjutsu at all then. Wait then how are you going to pull? Shorter range Provoke only? Lol, Hypocrisy.

Trolls be trolling. I may not particularly agree with all of the ideas presented nor like the silly names but lol, trying to knock ideas for the sake of knocking them is by far, sillier.

[wish12oz]

Se is NEVER going to do <insert thing you disagree with>!
Abyssea never happened.

Seriously wish, your "arguments" are almost always stuck in the mindset of how things are and not in the possibility of it being completely different. "It's useless now so no matter what they do, it will still be useless." is your argument?

Unless they fundamentally change the mechanics of ranged attacks and the way they are used, it will never be useful, why do you people have such a hard time understanding this? Do you know how much work and effort it would take to change core game code, if they even could? Yes, this is my argument, don't you think that if SE could change this it would of been already to make RNG not useless?


"I don't want this because I want something else" is the most selfish argument ever and holds no water. If you want something else, go post somewhere else about that something else. It is not a legitimate reason to not do something that someone else wants.

ZOMG LOOK OUT! THAT WISH GUY WANTS USEFUL STUFF ADDED NOT BS SUPERFICIAL ADJUSTMENTS THAT WON'T DO ANYTHING! HE'S SUCH A BAD PERSON!!


I'm just going throw around some more generalizing sentences that define what you're saying and be done.

"You're giving up 2-3 attack rounds right now from using throwing, so they can't possibly adjust that to make up for the difference, <insert no reason as to why they can't other than they haven't yet>"

Because using any JA, spell or ranged attacks interrupts your ability to melee, it's fundamental game mechanics and will never be changed. And do you really think they're going to improve throwing to the point it makes up 6+ melee attacks worth of damage and TP gain?As I posted earlier, when I fought Glavoid, the lose of damage from throwing 1 shuriken would be 2100,do you know what kind of shuriken you would need to do 2100 damage and gain 30 TP? It would be to have about 1500 base damage and store tp +25000. Do you seriously believe SE would add something like that?


"They take up inventory space!" Alright, I won't carry around weapons at all either, or gear swaps, or ninja tools, or a scroll of instant warp, because they take up inventory space.

I use enough inventory with my 17 sets of TP gear, 5 WS builds, MDT set, PDT set, Evasion set, Meds, Food, Ninja tools and proc weapons. Shurikens? no thanks~ Maybe if you were less gimp you'd know what a ninja's inventory should look like and understand the lack of room for much more.


"They cost gil!" Lolwut? Gil is useful?

Because I'm sure you have everything possible that can be bought, sorry some of us don't have every item in the game and every relic and mythic already, so we need our gil for useful items, like ghorns for our mule, that happen to have WHM leveled, and maybe even RDM.


Btw, "it's proper use and potential are for low level damage dealing" is an opinion on the matter not an argument. "But that's all they're good for, right now" does not mean that was their intended use, you do not speak for the dev team.

Math says that's all it's good for. Math is absolute, not opinion. It might not have been the intention originally, but that's how it is now, and it is obvious the Dev team doesn't care or they would of added shurikens for higher levels that were actually obtainable, but they never did in 7? 8? years now. So ya, I'd say the dev team agrees with me based on the simple fact they haven't added ANY shurikens for above 75. SE knows throwing is dead, it's time for the gimpja's to find out.


"I'll bring a RDM for status effects" Alright, because RDM has every possible status effect available in the game, there is no way there can be status effects they don't have. You also always have a RDM with you everywhere you go? Alright, so I guess you don't carry around enfeebling ninjutsu tools (chonofuda) to "pull with" because it's a better way to pull with because it enfeebles as per your own words? Then why do you need a RDM, oh right, they have MORE enfeebles and better versions of your enfeebles. You shouldn't bother with ninjutsu at all then. Wait then how are you going to pull? Shorter range Provoke only? Lol, Hypocrisy.

My arguement of provoke being better because it's faster, and slow/blind being better because they actually do something worthwhile compared to throwing is not hypocritical. I was simply pointing out better ways to pull then throwing. I only use provoke myself. You can stop slightly further away from me, wait 1 second, then use a RA to try and get the mob, but I will just run into provoke range and make it purple for you before your ranged attack resolves. So ya, provoke wins.

I dunno how it is for you, but I have plenty of mage friends to hang out with all the time, and if I didn't, I would go make some. Beyond that I have Kiraen, she's a 90 WHM account I leveled, and guess what! she comes with me everywhere I go, don't even act like I couldn't level RDM to 90 and gear it better then you in 4 days if it was worth doing. Also, RDMs have all the good enfeebles.


Trolls be trolling.

I agree, you should really stop.


I may not particularly agree with all of the ideas presented nor like the silly names but lol, trying to knock ideas for the sake of knocking them is by far, sillier.

Yes, trying to keep my favorite job from getting crap updates the one time every 5 years they update it is a terrible thing, I should be ashamed of myself.

[AyinDygra]

Unless they fundamentally change the mechanics of ranged attacks and the way they are used, it will never be useful, why do you people have such a hard time understanding this? Do you know how much work and effort it would take to change core game code, if they even could? Yes, this is my argument, don't you think that if SE could change this it would of been already to make RNG not useless?

Because using any JA, spell or ranged attacks interrupts your ability to melee, it's fundamental game mechanics and will never be changed. And do you really think they're going to improve throwing to the point it makes up 6+ melee attacks worth of damage and TP gain?As I posted earlier, when I fought Glavoid, the lose of damage from throwing 1 shuriken would be 2100,do you know what kind of shuriken you would need to do 2100 damage and gain 30 TP? It would be to have about 1500 base damage and store tp +25000. Do you seriously believe SE would add something like that?

Yes, trying to keep my favorite job from getting crap updates the one time every 5 years they update it is a terrible thing, I should be ashamed of myself.

* Ninja: Throwing Arts

(ammo - Shuriken only) Thorn in the Side: Throw a Shuriken at a spot that is hard to reach, creating great annoyance. (Provoke-like effect and Damage over Time, recast 30sec)

This should be as useful as using Provoke, but removes the need of using the Warrior support job. Being a "Job ability" it would not be restricted by the ranged attack delay... this would be as instant as Provoke, but requires a Shuriken.

(ammo - Shuriken only) Armor Wedge: Lodge a Shuriken in the enemy's body so those attacking the Shuriken cause extra damage to the enemy. (removes partial physical resistance and causes each hit landed on the enemy to inflict "Shuriken Pain" additional damage effect)

This ability could potentially add the necessary "2100" extra damage that you seem to be stuck on, as long as you have other party members attacking for the duration of the effect. The removal of special resistance also has additional benefits under special circumstances.


(ammo - Shuriken only) Shadow Shuriken: For the duration, you have a chance of throwing an extra Shuriken (no ammo consumed) for each Utsusemi shadow active. (Not the same as Sange: Not always 100% and does not consume shadows or ammo)

Depending on how many shadows you have up, and if "Armor Wedge" is active, each shuriken could trigger "Shuriken Pain", magnifying the damage caused by any ranged attacks.


(ammo - Scrolls only) Ninjutsu Secrets: Using a Far Eastern Ninjutsu scroll, enhance elemental damage of Ninjutsu for the duration and make them "area of effect" rather than single target.

Clearly, in instances where this is used, you want to be dealing elemental damage, not physical damage, so you won't be meleeing anyway. This is very useful in such cases.



Throwing CAN be made useful... you just have to be creative!

(These ideas are taken from my throwing ability post (link), including throwing abilities for other jobs too!) (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/2936-Throwing-WS?p=102776&viewfull=1#post102776)

[wish12oz]

Throwing CAN be made useful... you just have to be creative!


None of that is useful. Sorry to burst your bubble. I fail to see how any of that would make up for losing qirmiz tathlum and the requirement of losing 3 inventory spaces for shurikens. Do you even understand that shurikens need to do 6->10x more damage and gain 6->10x more TP then they currently do to become even with just meleeing? Not to mention if they add all that and it doesn't do MORE then meleeing, no one would use it anyway and it would be a complete waste of SE's time. Look at what you're proposing again, and then instead of saying 'this makes it do damage' say how much more damage it needs to do to become useful, then step back and look at how ridiculous it looks after you do that, and ask yourself if SE would really add it.

And it's obvious you have no idea whats going on from your lack of understanding on the warrior subjob, you think you sub it for provoke, when it's actual use is that it provides the largest damage increase compared to any other sub job. Please learn how to play ninja properly and what is good and useful and why it is good and useful before you propse ideas to try and improve the job, please.

[kingfury]

@ AyinDygra:
Very kool ideas! ^^ Thanks for the input /salute

However, I do want to point out that the OP is suggesting "Enhanced Abilities" in these skills for ALL jobs, not just specifically NIN. Ninja would definitely benefit the most from the Throwing Enhanced Abilities, similar to how PLD would from the Defending abilities, but I'm suggesting that all that have the appropriate skill levels have access to these Abilities.

The base point of the suggestions are to possibly bring these skills into use more often during gameplay. The creative part is finding ways to "Bolster" or "Enhance"(hence the term Enhancing Abilities instead of Job abilities) their effects to do just that.

[wish12oz]

@ AyinDygra:
Very kool ideas! ^^ Thanks for the input /salute

However, I do want to point out that the OP is suggesting "Enhanced Abilities" in these skills for ALL jobs, not just specifically NIN. Ninja would definitely benefit the most from the Throwing Enhanced Abilities, similar to how PLD would from the Defending abilities, but I'm suggesting that all that have the appropriate skill levels have access to these Abilities.

The base point of the suggestions are to possibly bring these skills into use more often during gameplay. The creative part is finding ways to "Bolster" or "Enhance"(hence the term Enhancing Abilities instead of Job abilities) their effects to do just that.

The problem is that you have to make them worthwhile to use or it's a waste of SE's time, and nothing involving throwing is worth SE's time, unless they were to outright delete it so their servers don't have to deal with threads about it anymore. That could totally be worth it.

[AyinDygra]

None of that is useful. I fail to see how any of that would make up for losing qirmiz tathlum and the requirement of losing 3 inventory spaces for shurikens. Look at what you're proposing again, and then instead of saying 'this makes it do damage' say how much more damage it needs to do to become useful, then step back and look at how ridiculous it looks after you do that, and ask yourself if SE would really add it.

And it's obvious you have no idea whats going on from your lack of understanding on the warrior subjob, you think you sub it for provoke, when it's actual use is that it provides the largest damage increase compared to any other sub job.

I'll address a couple points here:
First, Thorn in the Side: I was only making reference to the warrior support job as to the usage of "Provoke", not for any other combat advantages. IF you only used /war for Provoke (not really the reason anymore), this would replace it. It was a comparison to show how powerful (or weak) of a hate tool "Thorn" would be for a Ninja. In addition, it has a damage over time effect, probably minor, but it would be designed with a continued addition of enmity, rather than declining.

As for Armor Wedge, to be "useful" or "more powerful", this requires a party (or alliance) to increase its strength, so it doesn't directly overpower Ninja itself. Let's take these numbers as non-optimal EXAMPLES. I don't claim to be a math wiz, I'm a concept person. Tweaking is inevitable; getting TOO detailed is an exercise in futility.

If the added effect was 25dmg per hit, it would take 84 hits to reach 2100 damage. The ninja alone could get 84 hits in 42 non-double/triple-attack rounds, at "about" 2 seconds per round (not going by the maximum possible gear for everybody), that comes to "about" 84 seconds. If we make the duration of this effect 30 seconds, and you add 2 other melee, you could clearly benefit from this ability, damage-wise. And that's with only 2 other attackers. It would probably be best to keep this effect to the party only, since an alliance would really magnify this damage far too much.

Shadow Shuriken is probably the weakest of the ideas due to the randomness involved, but it's also assuming SE adds more powerful shuriken, perhaps with a new added effect such as: Latent: (shadow shuriken active) double all shuriken attacks. ... Now, with this shuriken and 5 shadows, it could trigger 12 shuriken hits for 1 shuriken expended. Each shuriken hit would trigger "Shuriken Pain" for 25 dmg each = 300 bonus damage and a massive boost to TP for more weaponskills, to make up for lost melee time. (each hit of the subsequent weaponskill could also trigger "shuriken pain")

No, I don't think it's crazy to expect them to add these abilities. SE has become much more generous with abilities that push the limits and work toward the unique aspects of the combat system. A small example is how self-skillchaining isn't only the domain of samurai anymore. Allowing Ninjas to use throwing to facilitate massive TP gain for self-skillchaining isn't that far-fetched, especially if it incorporates throwing, (an aspect of the job they thought was important at one point, given how high Ninja's throwing skill is).

Edit: sorry to kingfury for partially derailing... although, I'd still consider it to be "on topic", since I don't see generic "enhancements" being applicable to all jobs, and this sort of specificity really makes the ideas more realistic.

[Kimble]

I think we should add more "circle" Abilities!

[Kimble]

Btw, your "Shield retaliation" is basically Reprisal.

As far as the reflecting the sun one. Wouldn't that not work in dungeons or during weather?

[Zyeriis]

Unless they fundamentally change the mechanics of ranged attacks and the way they are used, it will never be useful, why do you people have such a hard time understanding this? Do you know how much work and effort it would take to change core game code, if they even could? Yes, this is my argument, don't you think that if SE could change this it would of been already to make RNG not useless?
Why do you have such a hard time understanding that the argument that you think they'll never change the fundamentals equates to an actual reason why the idea is bad (cause it doesn't). Putting words in people's mouths (or making assumptions is just a wasted post on your part. Ideas aren't bad because they would take work to make reality. That's called being lazy, and isn't an actual reason why the idea is bad but, please, by all means continue to make a fool out of yourself and post pointless things regarding that.



ZOMG LOOK OUT! THAT WISH GUY WANTS USEFUL STUFF ADDED NOT BS SUPERFICIAL ADJUSTMENTS THAT WON'T DO ANYTHING! HE'S SUCH A BAD PERSON!!
ZOMG LOOK OUT! A HIGHLY OPINIONATED PERSON WHO PASSES THAT OPINION OFF AS FACT! THEY'RE IDEA IS RIGHT BECAUSE THEY WERE THE ONE WHO CAME UP WITH IT, ANY OPPOSING IDEAS ARE WRONG IF THAT PERSON DIDN'T THINK OF IT!



Because using any JA, spell or ranged attacks interrupts your ability to melee, it's fundamental game mechanics and will never be changed. And do you really think they're going to improve throwing to the point it makes up 6+ melee attacks worth of damage and TP gain?As I posted earlier, when I fought Glavoid, the lose of damage from throwing 1 shuriken would be 2100,do you know what kind of shuriken you would need to do 2100 damage and gain 30 TP? It would be to have about 1500 base damage and store tp +25000. Do you seriously believe SE would add something like that?
Abyssea.



I use enough inventory with my 17 sets of TP gear, 5 WS builds, MDT set, PDT set, Evasion set, Meds, Food, Ninja tools and proc weapons. Shurikens? no thanks~ Maybe if you were less gimp you'd know what a ninja's inventory should look like and understand the lack of room for much more.
"You suck because I said so with no proof". You forgot fast cast equipment btw.



Because I'm sure you have everything possible that can be bought, sorry some of us don't have every item in the game and every relic and mythic already, so we need our gil for useful items, like ghorns for our mule, that happen to have WHM leveled, and maybe even RDM.
Per your words: "Maybe if you were less gimp."



Math says that's all it's good for. Math is absolute, not opinion. It might not have been the intention originally, but that's how it is now, and it is obvious the Dev team doesn't care or they would of added shurikens for higher levels that were actually obtainable, but they never did in 7? 8? years now. So ya, I'd say the dev team agrees with me based on the simple fact they haven't added ANY shurikens for above 75. SE knows throwing is dead, it's time for the gimpja's to find out.
You like to state obvious things while replying to things that have nothing to do with the very math you are "defending". Math is absolute, so are replacement math formulas that cater to something entirely different (which is the point). Well your argument is that they're useless below 60, not 75. "If they haven't done it yet they won't" again? Alright, keep telling yourself that, it's funny.



My arguement of provoke being better because it's faster, and slow/blind being better because they actually do something worthwhile compared to throwing is not hypocritical. I was simply pointing out better ways to pull then throwing. I only use provoke myself. You can stop slightly further away from me, wait 1 second, then use a RA to try and get the mob, but I will just run into provoke range and make it purple for you before your ranged attack resolves. So ya, provoke wins.
Congratulations you missed what was hypocritical and tried to cover it up with something you've already said (that is completely irrelevant). Also, secondary congratulations are in order for only using provoke to pull (which I now assume you mean to claim, which is different but I'm not surprised you don't know the correct terms for things). Pulling with Provoke = suck less, Claiming with Provoke = intelligent (unless some one with dia is around). Also, btw in case you didn't realize, Provoke isn't a job ability of Ninja, it's not native to Ninja. Not all situations have Ninja subbing Warrior (unless you're a n00b, in which case, again, suck less). Not that it's relevant in the least as it pertains not to fixing throwing and is just a derailment point. "This is how things are right now" + "They'll never change things" is making me lol and I'll repeat myself: Abyssea.

P.S. you missed commenting on the "RDM doesn't have every possible enfeeble in the game" main point of what you replied to. You read good.



I dunno how it is for you, but I have plenty of mage friends to hang out with all the time, and if I didn't, I would go make some. Beyond that I have Kiraen, she's a 90 WHM account I leveled, and guess what! she comes with me everywhere I go, don't even act like I couldn't level RDM to 90 and gear it better then you in 4 days if it was worth doing. Also, RDMs have all the good enfeebles.
Do that, then you won't be a liar anymore (cause you just blatantly admitted that you don't have a RDM with ONE-HUNDRED PERCENT of the time. Also, WHM isn't RDM in case you forgot, I know it's hard to think but you need to try. (Also, lmfao another "You suck!" comment, grow the hell up or provide some proof n00b).



Yes, trying to keep my favorite job from getting crap updates the one time every 5 years they update it is a terrible thing, I should be ashamed of myself.
You're trying to stop it? I thought it was never going to happen? Oh right.

[Kimble]

You don't seem to realize that the development team isnt as large as it once was and if they havent bothered to change it in over 8 years of the game, its very unlikely they will change it now.

People have been asking for YEARS for throwing WS and they came out and said they are unable to do that because the coding doesnt allow to tell the difference between a dart and a boomerang and a bow in that slot. They would have to do a total rework on the system to do that and at this point in time for them, it isnt worth the resources to do so.

[Karbuncle]

How about if we're going to propose JA's and abilities for NIN, we address the things that make NIN useless. Like very high level mobs where your katanas do jacknothing for damage, your acc is poor, and your evasion is useless, instead of thinking throwing can somehow be saved. Let's address the real problems with ninja, and the reason it was a bottom barrel DD for years before abyssea came out.

I can't fathom how any real NIN would argue with this logic. its reasonable. My bet is anyone arguing with Wish is either thick headed or just arguing with them cause "Wish is a meanie" and he doesn't sugar coat his responses.

and Zyer, wish has actually mathed out the reason Throwing is really terrible before. In some 20-odd page thread about Throwing. Just because in FF2 or 3, or maybe Naruto, Throwing was "cool" for NIN, does not mean it fits in this games.

Its not Wish bashing throwing just for the sake of bashing it. Its the absolute core of this games mechanics that make throwing unviable right now, and any buff too it would have to be incredibly unbelievably broken and over-powered to even remotely make throwing useful for damage.

Now, Damage aside, If they added Shuriken that maybe Addled, Amnesia'd, Gravitied, or general Debuffs that may be useful for something they could become very situational pieces of Equipment.

Now, If you just don't get all your RP from crappy NIN animes, You know Ninjas never use Shurikens as a main source of Combat. In fact, most "Ninjas" used Shurikens as a first-effort, to either attract or kill an enemy from distance, They never randomly dropped their Katana and tossed a Shuriken at someone mid combat.

Even if "naruta" Shuriken fail 99% of the time and are basically flashy useless weapons that never make contact or do any real damage. like in FFXI.

So, We need to just forget the idea of Buffing Shuriken to do damage, and focus on giving shuriken with more of a debuff type Benefit, where it could at least be situationaly useful. I.E like i mentioned Above, Very low delay Shurikens with Various Debuffs. For instance

"脳スパイク" (Brain Spike)
DMG:98 Delay:40
Additional Effect: Amnesia

this shuriken, While it will not make up for the damage of lost swings, Might be useful for pulling, Have the Amnesia last up to ~1minute, and you have a method of pulling that prevents most/all Exp mobs from Being able to TP.

In Fact, have this Effect NMs, With such a low delay, it could literally act as a Stun for a TP move. The amnesia proc on NMs could last only ~3/5 seconds. But if you're quick, can effectively prevent a dangerous TP move.

Silence Shuriken
DMG:98 Delay:40
Additional Effect: Silence

This one, Like the above, Won't make up for lose TP/DMG For attack rounds, But if used for pulling on a casting mob, Might save your shadows from Diaga II or Poisonga II (which they love to cast).

Same as Above, Make it work on NMs, Regardless of their Resistance. Effectively stunning/stopping a spell mid-cast. While it wont make up for lost damage, for some, it may be worth it. maybe maybe not.

Basically, Make Shuriken useful for what they really were. situational tools used by NIN. There is no realistic way to buff Shuriken DMG to outweigh 2-3 Attack rounds on NIN, so we should try to focus on making them useful for certain aspects of the playstyle.

Edit: And the good thing is, the above would take literally minimal Development time. It would take as much time to make the above shuriken as it is to make any other item. This will give some Ninjas a very situational use for Shurikens for something other than Damage, and take minimal development time.

[Rocl]

What if you use Sange with those debuff shurikens?

[Karbuncle]

What if you use Sange with those debuff shurikens?

Whats... "sange"?

[wish12oz]

I'll address a couple points here:
First, Thorn in the Side: I was only making reference to the warrior support job as to the usage of "Provoke", not for any other combat advantages. IF you only used /war for Provoke (not really the reason anymore), this would replace it. It was a comparison to show how powerful (or weak) of a hate tool "Thorn" would be for a Ninja. In addition, it has a damage over time effect, probably minor, but it would be designed with a continued addition of enmity, rather than declining.

As for Armor Wedge, to be "useful" or "more powerful", this requires a party (or alliance) to increase its strength, so it doesn't directly overpower Ninja itself. Let's take these numbers as non-optimal EXAMPLES. I don't claim to be a math wiz, I'm a concept person. Tweaking is inevitable; getting TOO detailed is an exercise in futility.

If the added effect was 25dmg per hit, it would take 84 hits to reach 2100 damage. The ninja alone could get 84 hits in 42 non-double/triple-attack rounds, at "about" 2 seconds per round (not going by the maximum possible gear for everybody), that comes to "about" 84 seconds. If we make the duration of this effect 30 seconds, and you add 2 other melee, you could clearly benefit from this ability, damage-wise. And that's with only 2 other attackers. It would probably be best to keep this effect to the party only, since an alliance would really magnify this damage far too much.

Shadow Shuriken is probably the weakest of the ideas due to the randomness involved, but it's also assuming SE adds more powerful shuriken, perhaps with a new added effect such as: Latent: (shadow shuriken active) double all shuriken attacks. ... Now, with this shuriken and 5 shadows, it could trigger 12 shuriken hits for 1 shuriken expended. Each shuriken hit would trigger "Shuriken Pain" for 25 dmg each = 300 bonus damage and a massive boost to TP for more weaponskills, to make up for lost melee time. (each hit of the subsequent weaponskill could also trigger "shuriken pain")

No, I don't think it's crazy to expect them to add these abilities. SE has become much more generous with abilities that push the limits and work toward the unique aspects of the combat system. A small example is how self-skillchaining isn't only the domain of samurai anymore. Allowing Ninjas to use throwing to facilitate massive TP gain for self-skillchaining isn't that far-fetched, especially if it incorporates throwing, (an aspect of the job they thought was important at one point, given how high Ninja's throwing skill is).

Edit: sorry to kingfury for partially derailing... although, I'd still consider it to be "on topic", since I don't see generic "enhancements" being applicable to all jobs, and this sort of specificity really makes the ideas more realistic.

Provoke is only useful for initial claim or hate to get it off whoever poped it, and not subbing WAR is just dumb. So why give up qirmiz for a shuriken so you can use an ability you already have access to that isn't even all that useful? useless

Ok so the next ability is only useful on higher tier NMs, cause they live longer then 1->10 seconds, and only if you have a bunch of people doing it too, and it only catches up to just meleeing after using it a bunch? And in the end, unless you have 5+ people using it, the time spent getting up to being even with melee damage lasts longer then the phase after that point where it becomes useful, so in the end, this is a DPS loss. useless

Next ability, shadow shuriken. Provided you are fighting something hard enough to warrant casting shadows, you are not going to be keeping them long enough for this to be effective enough to be using since it would only be worth using when you have a high shadows count. Maybe if they add utsu san and give it a fast cast timer, and make it 6 shadows with af3+2 shoes, and add cheap good shurikens this ability would have a purpose. It would depend on activation rate of getting those extra throws. If it always happens, you could at least use it once per cast and get an increase out of it. But in the end this relies heavily on SE adding a bunch of stuff they've shown they have no interest in adding, so it's also useless.

Yes, throwing was an aspect of ninja SE thought was good once, then they nerfed ranged damage calculations, and made haste gear more easily available, then updated 2 handed weapons, then made haste even more accessible, and haven't ever gone back to try and make throwing viable beyond level 60, they haven't even added a single shuriken above level 75, and the only ones above level 60 are a bit ridiculous to acquire. So I would say it is a bit much to expect SE to care about throwing at all, the only way SE will care is if a bunch of gimps make a fuss on the forums and people who know better don't step in and tell them why they're wrong and confirm SE's opinion and stance on the issue and set them straight and tell them throwing is garbage.

[Rocl]

Whats... "sange"?
Just because you don't have the correct T2 merited doesn't mean others don't.

[HFX7686]

Please stop suggesting throwing stuff for ninja. It's a horrible suggestion and really should be dropped.

Give ninja something decent in terms of damage, don't break the game (as clearly explained above) just to play about with throwing.

[wish12oz]

Basically, Make Shuriken useful for what they really were. situational tools used by NIN. There is no realistic way to buff Shuriken DMG to outweigh 2-3 Attack rounds on NIN, so we should try to focus on making them useful for certain aspects of the playstyle.


This is really the only viable option, and only if it's 100% proc, otherwise you're better off with someone casting the spells instead of wasting time/gil/inventory/macro spots.


You don't seem to realize that the development team isnt as large as it once was and if they havent bothered to change it in over 8 years of the game, its very unlikely they will change it now.

People have been asking for YEARS for throwing WS and they came out and said they are unable to do that because the coding doesnt allow to tell the difference between a dart and a boomerang and a bow in that slot. They would have to do a total rework on the system to do that and at this point in time for them, it isnt worth the resources to do so.

This is the right answer, why do you think SE added snapshot? It was because they couldn't make haste affect ranged attacks, so they added something new because they couldn't go back and change core game mechanics. And ya, development team is very very small now, no way they're going to do it now when it wasn't done before when the team was bigger and working on less then they are right now.


Why do you have such a hard time understanding that the argument that you think they'll never change the fundamentals equates to an actual reason why the idea is bad (cause it doesn't). Putting words in people's mouths (or making assumptions is just a wasted post on your part. Ideas aren't bad because they would take work to make reality. That's called being lazy, and isn't an actual reason why the idea is bad but, please, by all means continue to make a fool out of yourself and post pointless things regarding that.

How many years has it been now and SE hasn't changed the basic mechanics of the game? Seriously, look at the above response.




Abyssea.

How did Abyssea change the fundimental aspects of the way the game is coded and works? All I see is a bunch of buffs added to players, no reworking of any mechanics.




Per your words: "Maybe if you were less gimp."

Not having every relic and mythic in the game makes you gimp, you heard it here first!



Math is absolute, so are replacement math formulas that cater to something entirely different (which is the point). Well your argument is that they're useless below 60, not 75. "If they haven't done it yet they won't" again? Alright, keep telling yourself that, it's funny.

You're totally right, it's reasonable to expect the small dev team they have now to work on these issues when they've been known issues for years and SE didn't work on them when the dev team was larger then it is now and was doing less then they are now.
Do you have any common sense at all?


Congratulations you missed what was hypocritical and tried to cover it up with something you've already said (that is completely irrelevant)


You said pull with shurikens to get that 2 tp, I pointed out better things to pull with, I fail to see how that is irrelevant to the discussion or hypocritical.


Math Not all situations have Ninja subbing Warrior (unless you're a n00b, in which case, again, suck less).

Only fools don't sub WAR, making things die faster and increasing productivity is the best thing you can do. That's what WAR sub gives you. If you use some other subjob for anything, you're doing it wrong. Give examples where different subjobs would be useful, in your opinion, and I will tell you why you're doing it wrong, ok?


P.S. you missed commenting on the "RDM doesn't have every possible enfeeble in the game" main point of what you replied to. You read good.

Which enfeebles is it exactly that RDM doesn't have that are worth casting again?
I can't think of any, they have slow and blind afterall, even have level 2 versions of them that are more potent then Kurayami and Hojo Ni!


Do that, then you won't be a liar anymore (cause you just blatantly admitted that you don't have a RDM with ONE-HUNDRED PERCENT of the time.

RDM isn't required, I was just pointing out that if it was required for some of the enfeebling spells it has, you would be better off getting a RDM. Why do you fail to comprehend this?


Also, WHM isn't RDM in case you forgot

You totally right, it's better.


I know it's hard to think but you need to try. (Also, lmfao another "You suck!" comment, grow the hell up or provide some proof n00b).

What would you like me to provide proof of exactly? That I have friends or 2 accounts?
http://guildwork.com/ffxi/odin/kaerin
http://guildwork.com/ffxi/odin/kiraen

There's guildwork links to my characters if you want to check them out, there's even pics of them being logged in at the same time while I solo DI/SW with them!
I dunno how to prove I have friends, maybe if you give me your phone # I can have them call you or something, would that work for you? lol


You're trying to stop it? I thought it was never going to happen? Oh right.

Yes I would very much like to stop another useless update for NIN where we get crap JA's like yonin and ininn that aren't even useful.

[Zyeriis]

How many years has it been now and SE hasn't changed the basic mechanics of the game? Seriously, look at the above response.
Abyssea.



How did Abyssea change the fundimental aspects of the way the game is coded and works? All I see is a bunch of buffs added to players, no reworking of any mechanics.
Experience points system, Weakness Targetting, Key items that affect things without having to be activated (abyssites). That's just some things from Abyssea, let's go elsewhere for a moment. Having to "set" Rent-a-rooms, "We can't expand inventory any further" > Mog satchel/mog sack, etc.




Not having every relic and mythic in the game makes you gimp, you heard it here first!

You're totally right, it's reasonable to expect the small dev team they have now to work on these issues when they've been known issues for years and SE didn't work on them when the dev team was larger then it is now and was doing less then they are now.
Do you have any common sense at all?
Do you have any common sense at all? Also, relic/mythic are the only rare/ex pieces of equipment, got it.



You said pull with shurikens to get that 2 tp, I pointed out better things to pull with, I fail to see how that is irrelevant to the discussion or hypocritical.
Where?



Only fools don't sub WAR, making things die faster and increasing productivity is the best thing you can do. That's what WAR sub gives you. If you use some other subjob for anything, you're doing it wrong. Give examples where different subjobs would be useful, in your opinion, and I will tell you why you're doing it wrong, ok?
K, /dnc is totally useless, so is /drk. Stunning is useless in general. Want to make things die even faster and stun stuff? /drk.



Which enfeebles is it exactly that RDM doesn't have that are worth casting again?
I can't think of any, they have slow and blind afterall, even have level 2 versions of them that are more potent then Kurayami and Hojo Ni!
Ah because every enfeeble in the game is a spell and is available to players. You can't think of a lot of things.



RDM isn't required, I was just pointing out that if it was required for some of the enfeebling spells it has, you would be better off getting a RDM. Why do you fail to comprehend this?
Then don't imply that it is when arguing that you can just bring a RDM to do those things. Why do you fail to comprehend that giving such status effects to throwing weapons would nullify that possible "necessity". Do you disagree that RDM is ever a "necessity"? Fine, then what's the problem? If you are saying the opposite: that RDM is a necessity in some situations, refer to enfeebling abilities (for players) that do not currently exist (amnesia, zombie, etc.), at least not for RDM or NIN. This would put the shurikens at least on par (by your definition of useful) with enfeebles (ninjutsu or otherwise) if they enfeebled things in ways not available otherwise.



What would you like me to provide proof of exactly? That I have friends or 2 accounts?
http://guildwork.com/ffxi/odin/kaerin
http://guildwork.com/ffxi/odin/kiraen

There's guildwork links to my characters if you want to check them out, there's even pics of them being logged in at the same time while I solo DI/SW with them!
I dunno how to prove I have friends, maybe if you give me your phone # I can have them call you or something, would that work for you? lol

K, how does that prove the following:

don't even act like I couldn't level RDM to 90 and gear it better then you in 4 days if it was worth doing
?

[Karbuncle]

Abyssea didn't change a single mechanic of the game. It just made us more powerful by boosting our powers through giving us more of the current "mechanics".

Abyssea didn't give us anything that Reduced/Expelled the 2sec JA/RA Delay. Which is the kind of "Gaming Mechanics" 12 is talking about.

Abyssea just gave us more of what we have, it didn't change any core mechanic.

The closest thing to a "Change in the core mechanics" was them shortening the "Cure Spell Terror" effect you get if you get Cure casting on you engaging/disengaging. Saddly, This was a terrible fix at best and every other spell/ability/action/swing still imposes this "terror" Effect of not being able to move/act/engage/etc.


This is really the only viable option, and only if it's 100% proc, otherwise you're better off with someone casting the spells instead of wasting time/gil/inventory/macro spots.


I had assumed 100% proc of course. It would have to be to be useful. the only random should be you missing or hitting.

addle, Amnesia, Silence, would be decent Debuffs to put on them. Give them 100% Proc rate.

for Addle/silence, have it last ~45~1min on Normal mobs.
For Amnesia, Have it last ~30 Seconds on Normal mobs.

For NMs, Amnesia Specifically, have it last ~3/5 Seconds, Just long enough to stun a TP move if thrown timed right. While this of course might not be worth it to some NINs (some NINs can face-Eat most TP moves with a WHM)... Maybe you're Soloing Sobek or something? Stun Tyrant Tusk this way? Honestly I'm spitballin hypothetical Situations.

[wish12oz]

stuff

Nothing you said is even worth responding to except for 1 thing.
If you check my guildwork page, you can see I leveled DNC 1-30 in about 6 hours, then took 18~ hours to get 31-90, going to sleep in the middle of doing it for like 7 hours. Yay for weekends.

Kaerin's Dancer is now level 90.
May. 21, 2011 · Delete · Comment · Like

Kaerin's Dancer is now level 31.
May. 20, 2011 · Delete · Comment · Like


Oh, and subbing DRK isnt more a damage increase then subbing WAR, and DNC? seriously? If you want stun or healing you're better off bringing a mage and getting haste with those cures and stuns, WAR onry.

[Zyeriis]

and Zyer, wish has actually mathed out the reason Throwing is really terrible before. In some 20-odd page thread about Throwing. Just because in FF2 or 3, or maybe Naruto, Throwing was "cool" for NIN, does not mean it fits in this games.
Which is irrelevant to adjusting it. That's the problem, not the solution.



Its not Wish bashing throwing just for the sake of bashing it. Its the absolute core of this games mechanics that make throwing unviable right now, and any buff too it would have to be incredibly unbelievably broken and over-powered to even remotely make throwing useful for damage.
As far as I'm concerned it is, as wish hasn't actually said anything other than "it's never going to be fixed".



Now, Damage aside, If they added Shuriken that maybe Addled, Amnesia'd, Gravitied, or general Debuffs that may be useful for something they could become very situational pieces of Equipment.
So are 90% of the other useful things in the game.



Now, If you just don't get all your RP from crappy NIN animes, You know Ninjas never use Shurikens as a main source of Combat. In fact, most "Ninjas" used Shurikens as a first-effort, to either attract or kill an enemy from distance, They never randomly dropped their Katana and tossed a Shuriken at someone mid combat.
They should remove ninjutsu too then, and haste + magic.



So, We need to just forget the idea of Buffing Shuriken to do damage, and focus on giving shuriken with more of a debuff type Benefit, where it could at least be situationaly useful. I.E like i mentioned Above, Very low delay Shurikens with Various Debuffs. For instance

"脳スパイク" (Brain Spike)
DMG:98 Delay:40
Additional Effect: Amnesia

this shuriken, While it will not make up for the damage of lost swings, Might be useful for pulling, Have the Amnesia last up to ~1minute, and you have a method of pulling that prevents most/all Exp mobs from Being able to TP.

In Fact, have this Effect NMs, With such a low delay, it could literally act as a Stun for a TP move. The amnesia proc on NMs could last only ~3/5 seconds. But if you're quick, can effectively prevent a dangerous TP move.

Silence Shuriken
DMG:98 Delay:40
Additional Effect: Silence

This one, Like the above, Won't make up for lose TP/DMG For attack rounds, But if used for pulling on a casting mob, Might save your shadows from Diaga II or Poisonga II (which they love to cast).

Same as Above, Make it work on NMs, Regardless of their Resistance. Effectively stunning/stopping a spell mid-cast. While it wont make up for lost damage, for some, it may be worth it. maybe maybe not.
Agreed.



Basically, Make Shuriken useful for what they really were. situational tools used by NIN. There is no realistic way to buff Shuriken DMG to outweigh 2-3 Attack rounds on NIN, so we should try to focus on making them useful for certain aspects of the playstyle.
I don't think anyone has argued against that. (You know, other than wish trying to completely knock any and all forms of ideas regarding any other way of making shurikens useful by saying they still won't outweigh 2-3 attacks while arguing that enfeebling ninjutsu pulling/in general is useful but that doing the same thing to shurikens wouldn't be for some insane non-reason based steeply in the current shape of the game).

[Zyeriis]

Nothing you said is even worth responding to except for 1 thing.
If you check my guildwork page, you can see I leveled DNC 1-90 in about 35 hours, hows that for proof?

How does that prove that you could level RDM better than me and gear it better than me and faster?
And it's not worth responding to because you can't. /cliche counter to a cliche counter

[Karbuncle]

They should remove ninjutsu too then, and haste + magic.


Some RP elements are fine, Its why they call it an "RPG", I'm only saying, calling a job a failure/suck/etc for leaving out 1 RP element amongst many is a stupid excuse to force an irrelevant buff on a job that is fine without some magical fix to RP Shurikens more.

The job isn't "unfinished" or "Broken" because it doesn't RP every element of media images of Ninjas.

Plus, if you even looked or knew what ninja tools meant, You would know, outside of Utsusemi and Migawari, Most of them make a lot of Sense.

Suiton is just a Water Pump
Doton are spikes/rocks of some sort
etc etc, Most of them are Real-life tools that would inflict that sort of damage, Animation is just flashy.

So Ninjutsu is actually the most realistic thing of the Ninja job, using Tools to inflict damage.

[Zyeriis]

Abyssea didn't change a single mechanic of the game. It just made us more powerful by boosting our powers through giving us more of the current "mechanics".

Abyssea didn't give us anything that Reduced/Expelled the 2sec JA/RA Delay. Which is the kind of "Gaming Mechanics" 12 is talking about.

Abyssea just gave us more of what we have, it didn't change any core mechanic.
Experience Points system is completely different. The only similarity is the you kill stuff and get exp. The mechanics behind it are drastically different.

[Karbuncle]

Experience Points system is completely different. The only similarity is the you kill stuff and get exp. The mechanics behind it are drastically different.

You're right on this, They changed how you get exp.

Now comes the hard part. You seem to agree there is no realistically sane way to fix throwing to be a means of acceptable DD, So what are we debating here?

Throwing will always remain useless in terms of ranged damage. The best solution i came up with was giving Shuriken an amazing amount of TP yield, So maybe the WS frequency would make up for their lack of overall damage.

or giving them Unique Debuffs that would make them very situational, but still useful to some.

[Zyeriis]

Some RP elements are fine, Its why they call it an "RPG", I'm only saying, calling a job a failure/suck/etc for leaving out 1 RP element amongst many is a stupid excuse to force an irrelevant buff on a job that is fine without some magical fix to RP Shurikens more.
Which I didn't.

They can not want it, and want something else, I don't care.

Not every idea is good, no argument there. Trying to block train of thought with moronic ramblings is another thing though. Not every great addition to this game was a brilliant idea from the get-go.

"It's been too long, they'll never change it". Well, then they shouldn't have made these forums, all these years later then. If they don't like the ideas, thats fine, they won't get changed, it's not up to wish to decide.

[wish12oz]

Which is irrelevant to adjusting it. That's the problem, not the solution.

It's the problem, and it makes everything you want not possible. There is no solution to the problem of making shurikens do better damage then to go change core game mechanics, which SE has not and will not do.



As far as I'm concerned it is, as wish hasn't actually said anything other than "it's never going to be fixed".

How has SE provided any inclination to make you think they will go rework basic game fundamental mechanics?


Wanna race RDM 1-90? then Race to almace, fullaf3+2, full potency enfeebling sets and the best possible nuking and WS sets? Keep in mind I can solo all of this, and have tons of gil to buy things with and an LS full of people who would seriously help me, and you probably don't, so I think the race is solidly in my favor, but if you wanna do it, I'm down.


I provide math and common sense as my only arguments for why things are bad and should not be added, maybe you should reread the things I say.

[Zyeriis]

Throwing will always remain useless in terms of ranged damage. The best solution i came up with was giving Shuriken an amazing amount of TP yield, So maybe the WS frequency would make up for their lack of overall damage.

or giving them Unique Debuffs that would make them very situational, but still useful to some.
That's the point, wish was arguing completely against any sort of update to throwing. I was arguing that there is still room to make them useful in other ways. I don't take back that the ranged attack system needs to be revamped from it's core but, that doesn't mean I'm only talking about shurikens. Ranger and Corsair are pretty screwed in that department either way but, that's a completely different discussion (one that involves so many more things).

I said earlier in the thread that I always wanted some ninjutsu that used shurikens as consumables. Unique debuffs would also make them relevant to some degree.

[wish12oz]

That's the point, wish was arguing completely against any sort of update to throwing. I was arguing that there is still room to make them useful in other ways.

To bad your ideas were all failures and not useful, if there was anything worthwhile I wouldn't of told you they were bad ideas.

The only really good idea so far, has been to add a 'kick attacks' ability to ninja, that would use shurikens instead of kicks, and that wasn't even in this thread.

[Huevriel]

I'd like to see a massive craftable shuriken (probably stacks in 12) that is, in the eyes of wish12oz and countless others, absolutely useless. Few people would actually use it and see slightly higher damage than normal shuriken while wish12oz'ers just flame it and ignore it completely. FFVII had massive shuriken so it wouldn't be too far off a concept.
Of course, asking SE to make a whole new animation set for giant shuriken (unless they recycle the angon animation) is outworldly and asking too much. No lie.

And to the wish12oz'ers. I know you like to maximize your effectiveness. Kudos and Kupos to you. Thanks for at least acknowledging that some of us use them regardless of "uselessness" in attached quote. I don't really know what nay-roo-toe is all aboot but sure.



EDIT::: At no point did I say ninja needed to be all about melee damage onry. I just pointed out how broken you need to make throwing to make it useful, and why realistically SE will never do it. But hey, if you wanna go RP your favorite Naruto character in FFXI, go right ahead, nothing is stopping you, there's even an NPC or two that will sell you shurikens if you can't find a crafter and some materials.
だってばよ！

Btw NINs can use gun too. I make bullets for a friend while he makes shuriken for me. We have fun using both on NIN.
Lets keep this post in good spirits ^ ^

@OP: interesting suggestions. I main COR. Been wanting Parrying boosts forever.

[wish12oz]

Good read, too bad I haven't put any ideas forth (not my thread). Who are you arguing with now, your imaginary friends?

You certainly act like I said your poo smelled bad, my bad, maybe next year you can come up with something to add to the thread instead of baslessly attacking people and saying they're wrong when they provided math and sound reasoning repeatedly for why they are correct while you provided nothing.

[Kimble]

I dont get it, someone came out with an idea, and someone else told them how come that idea wont work and that person is a moron/bad person because they explained to them why it won't? At least hes GIVING a reason and not just "wah its stupid, i dont want it"" like for some reason you think hes doing.

[Huevriel]

What does QFT mean? Also, good idea (/starts working on a sig).

What, then, is your take on Parrying at least? Have you found it helpful or useful at all?
How would you suggest skilling it up?

Still waiting for SE to give boost to parry.

[wish12oz]

What does QFT mean? Also, good idea (/starts working on a sig).

What, then, is your take on Parrying at least? Have you found it helpful or useful at all?
How would you suggest skilling it up?

Still waiting for SE to give boost to parry.

Quoted for truth.

Parry isn't a terrible ability, not as useful as evasion, but I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with it. Best way to skill it up is to simply play the game and tank. Going out to intentionally skill it up is a waste honestly, you could be doing something worthwhile instead and maybe getting skillups. That said, I wouldn't be against an update to make it more useful, but I would be against an update to it that did not make it more useful.

[Neisan_Quetz]

EDIT: dammit Kamugi, beaten.

On parry, as long as its stuck at the base activation rate of 5% regardless of skill level, it's useless, if you can get off this floor on anything that matters then it could be useful, right now it hardly matters if you have the skill blue or not on anything above T.

[HFX7686]

Zyeriis (or anyone else in favour of this idea) are you able to give sound reasons, backed up with some mathematics, as to why a Throwing buff and weapon skills would be beneficial and doable?

[Zyeriis]

Zyeriis (or anyone else in favour of this idea) are you able to give sound reasons, backed up with some mathematics, as to why a Throwing buff and weapon skills would be beneficial and doable?
In favour of which idea? Making throwing viable and not utterly useless? All that math showed was how it was useless. You expect me to create mathematic formulas to replace the bad formulas that are already in place to make my argument? As I haven't seen the math that says that a different mathematical formula that does not currently exist (thus the problem) that can make throwing at least semi-useful (whether this is damage or otherwise to which we are referring) then, no.

Until you can back up the "anti-throwing because I think throwing is stupid" "argument" with an actual reason aside from "it's too late" (non-mathematical) or "if they haven't done it yet so they won't" (non-mathematical unless you count that as probability, in which case, you can't deny that it is in fact possible, because there is no probability without possibility) or "i don't want this, I want something else because my views on what is useful are steeply based in the current mechanics and thus are the only way things can be" (non-mathematical), then, again, no, you will not receive mathematical formulas that do not currently exist within the game to counter that. Why? This has nothing to do with the very mathematical equations that were brought up, aside from them being the problem. Closed mindedness, so far steeped in the present that it can not see the alternative, is getting annoying but, please, continue.

[Karbuncle]

That seems kinda like a very long drawn out "No".

But there are so many arguments going on im also curious which one.

[Kimble]

Dude, you have been given your answer SEVERAL times. SE THEM SELF said they can NOT add WS for throwing and would require reworking the coding from the ground up, which they no longer have the time and resources to do.

You are choosing to ignore this, as well as formulas that are easy that show why you would need to make throwing way over powered to make it worth it as a source of damage.

Also, you have been given a way to make it useful, which wish even said "yeah, that would make it some what better".

[wish12oz]

Until you can back up the "anti-throwing because I think throwing is stupid" "argument" with an actual reason aside from "it's too late" (non-mathematical)

Taken from my original post on page 2 of this thread: THE MATH



Shuriken have a 192 delay.
Kannagi+Kamome have a combined (210+180) 390 delay.
When you hit the delay reduction cap of 80%, this becomes a new delay of 78.
78+78=156, you get slightly more then 2 melee attacks rounds per throw.(throwing delay is 192)
with apoc, /war, brutal, eponas you have triple attack+18%, double attack+18%, which means 54% of the time, you get an extra attack per melee round.
So at +54% melee attacks per round, every time you attack, you get 1 extra attack, because you attack twice every round.
you get slightly more then 2 attack rounds per throw, you get 3 attacks per round.
Your throwing damage needs to be slightly better then 6 melee attacks and give as much tp as 6 melee attacks to be on par with just meleeing.
Throwing comes no where near either of these 2 things, and never will, it's impossible unless they make haste affect ranged attacks.

So the person who said I don't read the thread in fact didn't read my original post? funny!
Almost as funny as you claiming gil is useless, and acting like you have everything, while sporting that pink body and shoes with your 1 piece of af3+2 and 1 piece of af3+1 with that swift belt, among other wonderful items. Where's all those relics and mythics you implied you had, and all that wonderful gear?
http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Phoenix/Zyeriis#home
If you had a bit of gil you could probably upgrade to more useful stuff, like dusk gloves+1, speed belt, brutal earring, boxers mantle, etc. And if you had a clue about NIN you would use af1 body over pink body, and go solo durinn for some 4 haste shoes instead of that pink mess. They're not the best, but its an easy easy solo and 100x better then what you got.

[Zyeriis]

Dude, you have been given your answer SEVERAL times. SE THEM SELF said they can NOT add WS for throwing and would require reworking the coding from the ground up, which they no longer have the time and resources to do.

You are choosing to ignore this, as well as formulas that are easy that show why you would need to make throwing way over powered to make it worth it as a source of damage.

Also, you have been given a way to make it useful, which wish even said "yeah, that would make it some what better".

Where did I ever say anything about weapon skills? Where did I ever say anything to the contrary regarding what would need to be done within the current confines of the current formulas that govern the current state of ranged attack? Are you that blind that you can't see what I am actually saying?

Also they've said they can't do a lot of things that they ended up doing in the long run (not that this specifically was turned down anyway).

[Zyeriis]

Taken from my original post on page 2 of this thread: THE MATH



So the person who said I don't read the thread in fact didn't read my original post? funny!
Almost as funny as you claiming gil is useless, and acting like you have everything, while sporting that pink body and shoes with your 1 piece of af3+2 and 1 piece of af3+1 with that swift belt, among other wonderful items. Where's all those relics and mythics you implied you had, and all that wonderful gear?
http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Phoenix/Zyeriis#home
If you had a bit of gil you could probably upgrade to more useful stuff, like dusk gloves+1, speed belt, brutal earring, boxers mantle, etc. And if you had a clue about NIN you would use af1 body over pink body, and go solo durinn for some 4 haste shoes instead of that pink mess. They're not the best, but its an easy easy solo and 100x better then what you got.
Have a pissing contest with some one else (considering ive only been back little more than a month or so and nin isn't my only job), also the gear on ffxiah isn't up to date to say the least. Did I mention how that post has nothing to do with anything other than your argument being so far stuck in the current scheme of things that it isn't an actual argument because it's based in the notion that formulas cannot be changed. Which I've already proven they've changed before. See: Abyssea Exp Mechanics. Why would i "upgrade" to dusk gloves +1 when with my actual gear I have capped haste? Oh so I can run slower, alright. Also, there's this thing called evasion, which nin af body doesn't have. FFXIAH sure is accurate in showing every piece of equipment I use, isn't it? If you knew anything about the game, you'd know different situations call for different gear and different subs (lol /war only nin).

P.S. I proved you don't read things earlier, did you forget?

[Kimble]

Unless you have +5-6% haste shoes somewhere, I dont see how you are capping haste.

Comparing the change to exp (which wasnt really a change per say, more a new system was created) to what it would take to change throwing, is like comparing apples to oranges.

[AyinDygra]

In regard to the derailment: This topic is about Job Abilities to augment and enhance Defensive Abilities and all Throwing for all jobs that have throwing ability, NOT JUST NINJA and NOT THROWING WEAPONSKILLS. All jobs with Throwing Ability could very well make use of certain additions. These utility abilities could offer them new options to deal with situations, specifically when solo or in low-man groups.

~*~

A "Final" thought on the Ninja subject: Throwing is clearly useful at some point in their careers... if the Job Abilities I presented are given to them early on, while throwing is admittedly useful... these abilities would be admittedly useful. Shuriken do NOT always have to be stronger than melee to be useful (congratulations, one area was found where shuriken cannot realistically compare favorably to melee: after haste drives melee damage insane); there are cases where Ninjas need to use damage other than melee... like when an enemy has crippling non-dispellable spikes and they can't safely engage. And that's just one situation, where yes, these ideas WOULD be useful for Ninjas, even after haste becomes such an important factor.

Now, let's leave the Ninja concerns about throwing back in the "A Ninja without throwing..." thread, and leave this one alone, because they are not the same subject.

~*~

Back on topic:
What are some "Generic" Defensive or Throwing Job Abilities that could be useful to all jobs with those combat skills?

If you can't think of anything on this topic, this really isn't the topic to be posting in. (I've already apologized for my derailment into job specific abilities)

I personally can't think of any new "generic" abilities at this point.

Maybe move "Defender" from Warrior to "generic", since in past FF games, the "Defend" command was available from everyone's command list. In this case, I'd change Defender to also have the effect of raising all defensive abilities' activation rates and grant physical damage reduction rather than the useless bonus to "defense".

[Zyeriis]

Unless you have +5-6% haste shoes somewhere, I dont see how you are capping haste.

Comparing the change to exp (which wasnt really a change per say, more a new system was created) to what it would take to change throwing, is like comparing apples to oranges.

For the record my nin pants are +2 not +1, and I don't use bullwhip for things that fast cast -aga, that would be idiotic.

[Kimble]

Unless you upgraded in the past 24 hours...

Don't even have to use Bullwhip, there is a thing called Twilight belt.

[Karbuncle]

For the record my nin pants are +2 not +1, and I don't use bullwhip for things that fast cast -aga, that would be idiotic.

Bullwhip is only lowering your resist rate. Also Theres not a lot of NMs where you can regularly resist nukes that are powerful enough you should be worried about.

Then theres Shell V

Any NM thats powerful enough you need to worry about their nukes, You aren't resisting anyway. Even with bar-spells most of them will overwhelm you. Bullwhip is your best bet, Unless you're soloing.

Edit: Was going to suggest Twilight but i assumed he didn't have Shinryu access.

[Zyeriis]

Bullwhip is only lowering your resist rate. Also Theres not a lot of NMs where you can regularly resist nukes that are powerful enough you should be worried about.

Then theres Shell V

Any NM thats powerful enough you need to worry about their nukes, You aren't resisting anyway. Even with bar-spells most of them will overwhelm you. Bullwhip is your best bet, Unless you're soloing.
Situation dependent. Like I said, don't use it for everything.

[HFX7686]

In favour of which idea? Making throwing viable and not utterly useless? All that math showed was how it was useless. You expect me to create mathematic formulas to replace the bad formulas that are already in place to make my argument? As I haven't seen the math that says that a different mathematical formula that does not currently exist (thus the problem) that can make throwing at least semi-useful (whether this is damage or otherwise to which we are referring) then, no.

Until you can back up the "anti-throwing because I think throwing is stupid" "argument" with an actual reason aside from "it's too late" (non-mathematical) or "if they haven't done it yet so they won't" (non-mathematical unless you count that as probability, in which case, you can't deny that it is in fact possible, because there is no probability without possibility) or "i don't want this, I want something else because my views on what is useful are steeply based in the current mechanics and thus are the only way things can be" (non-mathematical), then, again, no, you will not receive mathematical formulas that do not currently exist within the game to counter that. Why? This has nothing to do with the very mathematical equations that were brought up, aside from them being the problem. Closed mindedness, so far steeped in the present that it can not see the alternative, is getting annoying but, please, continue.

So, disregarding the "beneficial", can you at least come up with a "doable"? Something that can be coded as to not break the game?

[kingfury]

In regard to the derailment: This topic is about Job Abilities to augment and enhance Defensive Abilities and all Throwing for all jobs that have throwing ability, NOT JUST NINJA and NOT THROWING WEAPONSKILLS. All jobs with Throwing Ability could very well make use of certain additions. These utility abilities could offer them new options to deal with situations, specifically when solo or in low-man groups.

~*~

A "Final" thought on the Ninja subject: Throwing is clearly useful at some point in their careers... if the Job Abilities I presented are given to them early on, while throwing is admittedly useful... these abilities would be admittedly useful. Shuriken do NOT always have to be stronger than melee to be useful (congratulations, one area was found where shuriken cannot realistically compare favorably to melee: after haste drives melee damage insane); there are cases where Ninjas need to use damage other than melee... like when an enemy has crippling non-dispellable spikes and they can't safely engage. And that's just one situation, where yes, these ideas WOULD be useful for Ninjas, even after haste becomes such an important factor.

Now, let's leave the Ninja concerns about throwing back in the "A Ninja without throwing..." thread, and leave this one alone, because they are not the same subject.

~*~

Back on topic:
What are some "Generic" Defensive or Throwing Job Abilities that could be useful to all jobs with those combat skills?

If you can't think of anything on this topic, this really isn't the topic to be posting in. (I've already apologized for my derailment into job specific abilities)

I personally can't think of any new "generic" abilities at this point.

Maybe move "Defender" from Warrior to "generic", since in past FF games, the "Defend" command was available from everyone's command list. In this case, I'd change Defender to also have the effect of raising all defensive abilities' activation rates and grant physical damage reduction rather than the useless bonus to "defense".
-------------------
Wow >< You took the words out of my mouth ^^

I had to skim through like 3-4 pages of this stuff just to find a clear voice of reason lol. Yet, I don't think people even saw/read your post >< lol. I fear my post won't even dent the persistent iron will to argue that has found it's way in, ><; but I'll try.

My suggestion for "Enhancing Abilities" is just a spring board foundation for adding new life and usefulness to Shield, Parrying, Throwing and Blocking skills. Think of these abilities as starter points for creating new and unique ways to possibly enhance gameplay for numbers of Jobs in FFXI, not just a call for trying to change game code/mechanics. Similar to how Atmas from Abyssea function, try to imagine these abilities as though they were Atmas that enhance Throwing, Blocking, Parrying, and Shield skills/performance you could turn on at will for a time. Then try to imagine what kind of enhancements would make them worthwhile to use.

Damage is only one piece of the possible endless puzzle of enhancements that could be devised for bolstering these skills. "Usefulness" from weapons/abilities/gear/items in this game does not only find their definitive qualities in how much damage can be created from using them. Think outside of that logic for a second, and consider other types of usefulness for the skills in question.

And for those that have repeated the similarities of some of these enhancements, yes, I realize that the spell Reprisal has similar qualities, but the point from the OP is to make them available to other jobs via skill level. PLDs would simply benefit from from the two abilities I suggested in that they would have an added boost to what Reprisal can do. Again, it's no different than a PLD being able to cast Flash on a target as well as use Flash Nova with a club to do the same thing. Similarly, a WAR having Berserk to enhance attack as well as Warcry. Having multiple ways to accomplish a similar/same effect is nothing new to the mix of FFXI.

The biggest point here, again, is that other jobs with the appropriate skill levels would now have new life and functionality when using a shield vs the current mundane and vary unrewarding functionality present today. Equip, and hope it procs. This can be easily changed without recoding the current systems simply by adding enhancements that bring these skills to life. I've only suggested 3 for Throwing and Shield, that's not to say with more planning and creativity even more diverse and unique abilities can't be added to the list.

No where does the OP ask for WS's, only ways to enhancements and bolster these skills.

[kingfury]

Btw, your "Shield retaliation" is basically Reprisal.

As far as the reflecting the sun one. Wouldn't that not work in dungeons or during weather?
---------------
Yep, just posted about the similarities, and it's for a purpose. ^^

Yep, I see no reason not to add some realism into the mix since we have dozens of pieces of gear that's governed by day/night/weather conditions. I added "Effective with shields that contain metal", as a means of making some sense, so paying attention to where/when you use this ability should also play into the strategy of using it effectively. ^^

[Kimble]

The problem is, your reflect one is way to gimmicky for most people to really care to use or base any strategy around it.

There really isnt much of a reason to make "global" adjustments to shield when PLD is the only job that really uses shield to start with. The only other job that "may" use it is RDM.

As far as fixing Parry, only way to even start to fix it is make the skill matter on anything harder than T.

[kingfury]

The problem is, your reflect one is way to gimmicky for most people to really care to use or base any strategy around it.

There really isnt much of a reason to make "global" adjustments to shield when PLD is the only job that really uses shield to start with. The only other job that "may" use it is RDM.

As far as fixing Parry, only way to even start to fix it is make the skill matter on anything harder than T.
------------------
^^ Again, your only thinking in terms of what kinds of strategy we've had with shield and parry up to this point. I think I'll have to push the Atma comparison a bit more to drive home the logic here. Just take a look at how many enhancing Atmas there are to be had inside Abyssea. Then pick a particular stat or trait to focus on like Double Attack or Evasion. Now there's several Atmas for both of these topics that enhance their performance once set and the effects are instantly visible and noticeable. A Job that doesn't have these traits natively can now devise play style strategy around these enhancements and have great results. For example, a WAR that wanted to be an evasion tank can achieve this strategy with the right set of Evasion enhancing Atmas and gear with great success even though WARs evasion is natively pretty crappy.

Now take that logic and apply it here. Mirror the same concept of what Atmas do for us, in that they enhance our performance in such a way that is very noticeable and effective, to these possible Enhancing Abilities. Players that wish to use a shield effectively during combat would now be able to devise a "similar" strategy to that of what PLDs use so long as the enhancements are creative and effective. Being able to soak up damage using a shield "efficiently" is something that all jobs that can equip a shield could benefit from. The strategy would then be up to the player to get the most out of the enhanced effects, and totally dependent on that players creativity just like any play style in this game. The only reason PLDs are the only job that truly uses shields is because they have abilities that enhance their use of a shield where no one else does. If you can change that fact, you can change the way other jobs effectively use shields.

Parrying would be the same, in that so long as the enhancements were creative and effective, players that understand the logic of how to get the most out of using Parrying as a battle strategy will see the most out of the enhancement. I agree that whatever the enhanced abilities are that they should be powerful enough to use against T~ monsters, yet at the same time, their effectiveness would be dependent on the combat skill lvl of the player. This is where the Atma concept and the Enhanced Ability concept are separate. Atmas will enhance a player no matter what level/skill level a player is working with, where these abilities would root their max potential with higher combat skills and equipment.

[Kimble]

The only jobs with Native Skill shield skill other than PLD is WAR, WHM, BST, THF, RDM. War has C+, WHM D, BST E, and RDM and THF are at F.They would need their base skill to be raised by a lot to even begin to make it useful. On top of that, WAR is always always going to use a Gaxe, if they really want to block damage or reduce the amount of damage taken, they simply would use a PDT or MDT set accordingly. THF will have a very hard time making use of ANY adjustments to shield because their Eva is A+ and their Parry is A-, so if you change Parry to proc better, thats going to be 2 checks before Shield even has a chance to proc.

Again, to make the changes you want, a revamp of the entire system will be needed to even make the changes you want some what useful.

[Bulrogg]

Not really, for instance with atma of the roaring laughter anyone can /mnk and counter like a pro without a "revamp of the entire system". I think this is the type of comparison he is trying to make. With new changes/updates like these and similar to the ones in Abyssea new plays styles are poping up.

[Kimble]

What new play styles popped up exactly in abyssea?

Please define what you consider new, as most that I know of, were used before abyssea as well.

[kingfury]

WAR being an evasion tank is one. ^^lol I used that example, because I've built this play style myself. Though I had the gear before Abyssea, the effectiveness was no where near as prominent as they are inside Abyssea. A dozen others exist, but I'm heading to the pool amt :D

/Kingfury grabs his towel and sunglasses /cheer

[Kimble]

If you are using atma and gear sets to eva take on war, that means your damage is WAY down, and you are most likely not doing enough damage to even keep hate off other DDs.

As far as duoing, well, your WHM will have more than enough MP to keep you alive.

[HFX7686]

WAR being an evasion tank is one. ^^lol I used that example, because I've built this play style myself. Though I had the gear before Abyssea, the effectiveness was no where near as prominent as they are inside Abyssea. A dozen others exist, but I'm heading to the pool amt :D

I have never come across a single person playing WAR as an evasion tank. I don't think that is even possible, and if it is, the WAR is probably doing terrible damage.

Besides, evasion tanking is not a new style of play.

[wish12oz]

I completely agree, while if you waste your atmas and gear on supporting your evasion you may make enemys miss you a lot, but you're doing terrible damage, and if there's other melees around worth a crap, you'll never be the one the mobs are attacking anyway. Beyond that you could just play thf nin or dnc if you needed an evasion tank, those jobs can do it without requiring evasion gear or evasion atmas, and will outparse your evasion war.

[Bulrogg]

What new play styles popped up exactly in abyssea?

Please define what you consider new, as most that I know of, were used before abyssea as well.

WHM/MNK soloing nms in abyssea is a new play style. Maybe you witnessed it prior to abyssea, in that case it's new to me.

I too have seen eva WARs soloing nms in Abyssea. I am not arguing against the case that their dmg is taking a major reduction, of course it is. And yes the nms would die quicker with a better party set up. But not everyone lives in a Bob Ross painting. They are going out and soloing KIs during the day and doing the boss fights in the evening when the rest of the LS gets on. And yes, eva tanking is not new to the scene but more jobs are able to utilize it and some are even soloing with it. And again, I admit their damage is reduced but they aren't trying to zerg something down with a huge party, they are soloing their KIs. And yes, it would go quicker with a different party setup but like I said before, not everyone lives in a Bob Ross painting.

[kingfury]

^^ All responses I'd expect from folks that haven't seen a WAR playing this way before. It's cool though, since that's the point I'm trying to make with these suggestions. Just because it doesn't kill the NM as fast as what's the norm, depending on that player's situation, it could open the game to endless new possibilities of gameplay that are rewarding to that player alone. Not all players stick to groups, and thus have to alter their play style from the status quo to accomplish the goals they wish to achieve.


If you are using atma and gear sets to eva take on war, that means your damage is WAY down, and you are most likely not doing enough damage to even keep hate off other DDs.

As far as duoing, well, your WHM will have more than enough MP to keep you alive.
---------------------
The fight takes on a slightly slower pace, yes, but my damage on my evasion WAR is fine. ^^ and by fine, I mean enough to still fork out 2-4k damage with spike ws's and create nice skillchain damage and such.

Yeah, I dual box a WHM and the difference is monumental in terms of conserving MP lol. I put this set together for the very purpose of duo'ing those hard hitting NMs that either have ridiculous additional effects to their melee attacks (Adze, Jaculus, etc.) or just seem to ignore -PDT all together(Jaculus, Ansherekh, etc.) or just have insane amounts of Double and Triple attack. Swapping gear for WS's and keeping Raised Ruins on along with my evasion Atmas keeps my WS damage at a very nice level enough to smash heads and swap back to evasion.


I have never come across a single person playing WAR as an evasion tank. I don't think that is even possible, and if it is, the WAR is probably doing terrible damage.

Besides, evasion tanking is not a new style of play.
-------------
Oh it's possible all right ^^, and again my damage is fine. All I have is a crappy phone camera, but I wouldn't mind popping a video on youtube for proof if you need it. ^^

Based on the 1st part of your post (and the fact I've never really seen another WAR in my time playing FFXI doing it either lol), though it's technically not a "new play style" in general terms, it is a very different way to play for a WAR. Again, my point is to open these skills in question to all jobs that can benefit in an effort to perhaps change the way they play the game in certain situations.


I completely agree, while if you waste your atmas and gear on supporting your evasion you may make enemys miss you a lot, but you're doing terrible damage, and if there's other melees around worth a crap, you'll never be the one the mobs are attacking anyway. Beyond that you could just play thf nin or dnc if you needed an evasion tank, those jobs can do it without requiring evasion gear or evasion atmas, and will outparse your evasion war.
----------------------
Ask my Linkshell if I have any trouble keeping hate while evasion tanking on WAR ^^. I've tanked nearly every NM in Abyssea at least once using this method and have done pretty darn well. Again, not sure other than posting a video or something to show proof, but other than that, it works out great if you can take my word for it... which probably won't be enough I'm assuming lol. ><'

Which in closing is all good though since seeing different/new ways to play a job is the very base of my suggestion. I'm aware at this point though, even if I showed a video of me taking down a NM using this method on WAR, folks would still cry "You could have killed it faster" or "Your DoT dropped dramatically" and so forth. In which I would again respond, if SE wanted every single player that plays a job in FFXI to play the exact same way as everyone else, we wouldn't have all the wonderfully diverse pieces of gear that we have to mix and match and stack to achieve vastly different outcomes for every different situation.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

^^ yeah, but I'd say PLDs deserve it. They already have to share their Emp. wpn with RDM and BLU, so I'd opt to let them shine with the one thing no other job can match them at /

Not really, they also have a shield of which no other job gets.

[kingfury]

Not really, they also have a shield of which no other job gets.
----------
Correction, LOTS of shields no other jobs get lol >< but, yeah, that's the point. DRKs can wield a GA, and some do pretty well damage wise, but a WAR will quickly outshine that DRK, and it's as it should be in my opinion. PLDs should out class every other job when it comes to Shield efficiency imo, and hopefully even with additional abilities like the ones I'm suggesting, SE continues to add even more tools for PLD to utilize to keep them on top of all other jobs. Heck, if it were up to me PLDs would get Great Shields lol of which they would equip in their main slot and "fight" by using various epic shield bashes to the head of their enemies lol. ^^ That deserves an illustration... gimmie a sec. :D

[wish12oz]

How much haste gear do you use in your evasion set?

[HFX7686]

Based on the 1st part of your post (and the fact I've never really seen another WAR in my time playing FFXI doing it either lol), though it's technically not a "new play style" in general terms, it is a very different way to play for a WAR. Again, my point is to open these skills in question to all jobs that can benefit in an effort to perhaps change the way they play the game in certain situations.

Still seems pointless and a waste of a WAR when another job could tank better while the WAR does proper damage.

If you want to do that, sure thing, go ahead and do it, but I wouldn't advertise it as a "new style of play" because most newer and inexperienced players won't realise that there are better and more efficient ways of doing things.

[Neisan_Quetz]

The heck is War evasion Tanking with C evasion?

[BurnNotice]

Now that I think of it, there hasn't been enough focus on throwing weapons or the consideration for WS. I strongly believe there is still time and room to implement this design in the game. The development team has found way to improve many things about the game, I doubt they wouldn't have the resource to do so. However, I know if SE would have considered this, it could be very time consuming to get this kind of a project going. Well, to all the developers, testers, and such, give it try. Try to see if it could be done and then give us some feedback. :)

[kingfury]

How much haste gear do you use in your evasion set?
------------
^^ 2% from hands, and spell haste lol. :) That would be the "slightly slower pace" i talked about in my recent post.

But I use those magical things called macros to swap in haste gear should I get a window of opportunity to do so. Like once I stagger the mob with Red trigger and such. At which point I'm flowing at capped haste and can reach close to 200 TP and build up a nice Ukko's to Ukko's skillchain. Works like a charm.^^ Retaliation is another great way to keep the TP flowing at this slightly slower pace as well.

[kingfury]

Still seems pointless and a waste of a WAR when another job could tank better while the WAR does proper damage.
If you want to do that, sure thing, go ahead and do it, but I wouldn't advertise it as a "new style of play" because most newer and inexperienced players won't realise that there are better and more efficient ways of doing things.
--------------
^^; Hear me out now, the point of the suggestion on the OP isn't "If you want to use a shield change to PLD", or "If you want to benefit from throwing change to NIN". The point is doing things efficiently on jobs that would not otherwise get to truly excel at those things.

I think the issue in regards to "new style of play" is your interpretation of what "new style of play" means to you. As I mentioned before, one could say evasion tanking is not a "new style of play" for FFXI in general, but another can say using evasion to tank while on WAR is an entirely "new play style" for them to experience. I suppose I should use another term to describe it, but it works both ways. ^^

o.o is that sarcasm at the end? It's that old "text translation" thing messing with me again ^^; since this last line sounds like it has a joking tone to it.^^; /stagger

[kingfury]

The heck is War evasion Tanking with C evasion?
----------
lol ^^ well my Evasion on WAR with my gear is at 340, and the Atma pushes the set to shine. It DOES work outside Abyssea to help me evade here and there, but not so much against NMs and high level mobs like it does in Abyssea. I can take a quick pic of my gear and list the stuffs in a sec.

[Karbuncle]

Maybe its the fact i have the luxury of having THF90, and it being able to tank almost anything in full DD atmas in TP Gear, but the thought of gearing up my WAR for an EVA Set and EVA Atmas when i could switch to THF or NIN and Gear toward DD and kill the mob 8x as fast... doesn't appeal to me.

I don't deny it might work, i guess its just quite the foreign concept > >, I'll probably stick to THF and or NIN for Evading though ;x

[Neisan_Quetz]

I was going to ask how you fit that much evasion gear on war and kept haste gear on, but you answered that responding to Kamugi.

[Anewie]

I... Can't..

lol

[wish12oz]

"If you want to benefit from throwing change to NIN". The point is doing things efficiently on jobs that would not otherwise get to truly excel at those things.


How many pages of text do I need to make before you understand ninja doesn't excel at throwing, and that throwing is garbage?
How many times do I need to post the mechanics behind this statement for you to get it and stop saying it?
Seriously, I want to know, so that I can stop seeing you say it can somehow be good when you don't even understand why it's bad, even though I've said it 50 times in threads you created/read/replied in.


Now that I think of it, there hasn't been enough focus on throwing weapons or the consideration for WS.

There actually has been, you just missed it somehow.
SE said "We cannot add WS's to throwing in FFXI."
And throwing mechanics are garbage, basically you give up over 6 attacks worth of tp and damage to throw 1 shuriken, so it's not worth adding new shurikens, and SE hasn't. If you would like to read more about this, look for my first post in this thread on page 2.

[kingfury]

@ wish12oz:

^^ Well there's never been an argument from me over how efficient NIN is at anything Wish. Neither the OP or any other post from me has tried to target NIN specifically. My statement about "benefiting from Throwing" on NIN was in reference to the high combat skill rating NINs have, not that Throwing on NIN is the greatest thing and such.

This is my third time saying I'm not trying to focus on any job in particular with the OP's suggestion, but I'm sure I'll say it again ><; /stagger

[kingfury]

----------
lol ^^ well my Evasion on WAR with my gear is at 340, and the Atma pushes the set to shine. It DOES work outside Abyssea to help me evade here and there, but not so much against NMs and high level mobs like it does in Abyssea. I can take a quick pic of my gear and list the stuffs in a sec.
----------------
Here's my Evasion skill at 340. Great thing about this, is that this will continue to improve as the level cap increases come along.

Evasion set for WAR-1 (http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b167/soulchld4/06032032.jpg)
And here's gear at a glance. I usually start with my Ukonvasara in hand and swap to my Evasion GA if I'm trying to bump my evasion a bit more.

Evasion set for WAR-2 (http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b167/soulchld4/06032034.jpg)
--------
Main(GA): Atlas +2 [eva +24]
Head: Optical hat [eva +10]
Neck: Evasion torque [eva skill +7]
Body: Askar korazin [eva +12]
Hands: Askar manopolas [eva +8]
Legs: Koenig diechlings [eva +10]
Feet: Emissary boots [eva skill +5]
L.Ear: Elusive earring [eva +5]
R.Ear: Beastly earring [eva +5]
L.Ring: Heed ring [eva +3]
R.Ring: Alert ring [eva +6]
Back: Boxer's mantle [eva skill +10]
Waist: Nusku's sash [eva +5]
Merits: Evasion skill [4 = eva skill +8]
------------
Again, the point is to push the concept that jobs that don't natively excel at something COULD with the help from "Enhancing Abilities" that would function similarly to how Atmas work in regards to enhancing certain skills. I also have some other fairly unorthodox sets for WAR that break away from the status quo like a shield skill set, and ranged acc/att set. And I'm gonna get right on capping those Marksmanship and Throwing skills ^^; The day I went to skill up Archery, I had forgot to grab my crossbow and boomerang /stagger

[Neisan_Quetz]

So much wrong, I don't even...

[kingfury]

^^ lol wrong for you perhaps lol. Which is fine since "different strokes for different folks" holds true in this game. :)

It helps GREATLY with damage control for me when duo'ing, so it's all kinds of "right" as far as I'm concerned. ^^

[Neisan_Quetz]

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/1847-Haste-and-You...-A-guide-to-the-misinformed.

This thread needs to be stickied. It's sad it's still worth posting in 2011.

[kingfury]

>< well I never said I full time this set lol. I understand haste just fine since I have a capped haste set as mentioned before. ^^ I don't "Full time" any set to be more specific, but that's another topic all together.

It's still a good link nevertheless for those that don't understand it though. /

[kingfury]

**Edit to OP** (For more detailed description of the suggestion)

(From Post #73 (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/8178-Creating-Job-Abilities-for-Throwing-Shield-Parrying-and-Blocking?p=114583&viewfull=1#post114583))
My suggestion for "Enhancing Abilities" is just a spring board foundation for adding new life and usefulness to Shield, Parrying, Throwing and Blocking skills. Think of these abilities as starter points for creating new and unique ways to possibly enhance gameplay for numbers of Jobs in FFXI, not just a call for trying to change game code/mechanics. Similar to how Atmas from Abyssea function, try to imagine these abilities as though they were Atmas that enhance Throwing, Blocking, Parrying, and Shield skills/performance you could turn on at will for a time. Then try to imagine what kind of enhancements would make them worthwhile to use.

Damage is only one piece of the possible endless puzzle of enhancements that could be devised for bolstering these skills. "Usefulness" from weapons/abilities/gear/items in this game does not only find their definitive qualities in how much damage can be created from using them. Think outside of that logic for a second, and consider other types of usefulness for the skills in question.

And for those that have repeated the similarities of some of these enhancements, yes, I realize that the spell Reprisal has similar qualities, but the point from the OP is to make them available to other jobs via skill level. PLDs would simply benefit from from the two abilities I suggested in that they would have an added boost to what Reprisal can do. Again, it's no different than a PLD being able to cast Flash on a target as well as use Flash Nova with a club to do the same thing. Similarly, a WAR having Berserk to enhance attack as well as Warcry. Having multiple ways to accomplish a similar/same effect is nothing new to the mix of FFXI.

The biggest point here, again, is that other jobs with the appropriate skill levels would now have new life and functionality when using a shield vs the current mundane and vary unrewarding functionality present today. Equip, and hope it procs. This can be easily changed without recoding the current systems simply by adding enhancements that bring these skills to life. I've only suggested 3 for Throwing and Shield, that's not to say with more planning and creativity even more diverse and unique abilities can't be added to the list.

[kingfury]

The only jobs with Native Skill shield skill other than PLD is WAR, WHM, BST, THF, RDM. War has C+, WHM D, BST E, and RDM and THF are at F.They would need their base skill to be raised by a lot to even begin to make it useful. On top of that, WAR is always always going to use a Gaxe, if they really want to block damage or reduce the amount of damage taken, they simply would use a PDT or MDT set accordingly. THF will have a very hard time making use of ANY adjustments to shield because their Eva is A+ and their Parry is A-, so if you change Parry to proc better, thats going to be 2 checks before Shield even has a chance to proc.
Again, to make the changes you want, a revamp of the entire system will be needed to even make the changes you want some what useful.
--------------
You're correct that these jobs have varying combat skill levels natively, and that some planning from the player would be needed in certain cases to begin to see the full benefits from these types of enhancing abilities. Those jobs with lack luster combat skill ratings would have to work a bit harder than those jobs that have higher ratings natively, but that doesn't mean it can't be accomplished with some carefully devised gear sets, weapons, sub job choice, merits and through the possible Enhancing Abilities that could be added.

I've said in a recent post that the biggest reason that other jobs like WAR don't frequent using shields is due greatly to the fact the only job that has shield abilities and enhancements is PLD. If that fact is changed, the strategy around "effectively" shield tanking with other jobs could spring up all over the place. The number of creative Enhancing Abilities that could be added would hold the key to such new possibilities.

I've said recently that unlike Atmas, these Enhancing Abilities would see their full potential based on the combat skill level of the player, so I'm not suggesting enhancements that wouldn't take some strategy and effort from the player to see the full benefit. Atmas don't care if you have a combat skill level of 5 or 350, they just have set enhancement percentages once the player puts them on so very little strategy from the player is needed to see their benefits. I didn't want to change the "effort and strategy" part of things with these abilities since that would be a big part of the rewarding feeling you get from seeing all your planning and skillups come together to make something unique.

I don't know about others, but seeing shield proc on WHM is awesome to me ^^ lol. I've successfully put together a very effective DD'ing WHM over time, and would love to add some new combat diversity such as creative shield enhancements to that mix. The same way I've planned around the concept of turning my WHM into a DD, I could plan around seeing the most out of pushing the defensive shield qualities too.

In response to your THF example, so long as that shield is being equipped and careful attention is paid to increasing the skill level, whenever the shield does proc (since no one can evade 100% of the time) it would nice to see an enhanced effect out of it. The goal of such evasion masters is not to get hit, but in the event the monster succeeds in getting a hit in, something like "Shield Retaliation" reflecting back that damage could be very rewarding.

[Kuporeid]

kingfury, you've posted some fun and creative ideas, which remain fun and creative whether everyone would use them or not.

The title of the thread mentions parrying as something for which it might be interesting to create abilities. I have to admit I've always selfishly wanted a few fencing abilities for Red Mages (Fencers! Duelists! Estoqueurs [Swordsmen]!). One fencing ability I've had in mind seems in line with your ideas; it's a parrying maneuver called a "riposte."

A riposte is a parry that moves straight into an attack. In the game, this could be implemented similarly to Monks' counterattacks, except it would require a parry to activate. A Job Ability called Riposte that turned parries into ripostes for a limited time would be neat, especially for jobs like Corsair and Ninja, who have very high parrying skill.

Separately from the idea of Riposte as a Job Ability, I have a wish on my dream list of things that will almost certainly never happen: Riposte as a Job Trait for Red Mage. Since Red Mages have such lousy parrying skill, Riposte would not activate enough to be overpowering, but it would be a nice extra oomph! on those occasions we're even holding a sword, let alone being attacked while holding a sword.

It's fun to imagine things.

[Sarick]

[INDENT]-Shield retaliation: Allows you to reflect damage taken from a successful shield block. (Timed duration of effect) *Shield Retaliation Example* (http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b167/soulchld4/CombatSkillJAs-ShieldRetaliation-Web.jpg)

I posted this as a suggestion a while back called counterbash. It's exactly the same thing with a different name. Unfortunately, SE added a spell (reprisal that does this to shield. Also if this isn't a trait but an ability its going to bee weak because i'll constantly get dispelled. What's the point if it's always dispelled or has a short duration.

[Kimble]

Shield has to go through 2 procs Eva and Parry, before it has a change to proc. I dont know the exact math, but for something that is post likely only going to proc 5% of the time, its really not worth it to make adjustments too, considering any Update in general shield has gotten, was tied to PLD.

[kingfury]

kingfury, you've posted some fun and creative ideas, which remain fun and creative whether everyone would use them or not.
---------------
Thanks ^^ /salute


The title of the thread mentions parrying as something for which it might be interesting to create abilities. I have to admit I've always selfishly wanted a few fencing abilities for Red Mages (Fencers! Duelists! Estoqueurs [Swordsmen]!). One fencing ability I've had in mind seems in line with your ideas; it's a parrying maneuver called a "riposte."
-------------
If it's "selfish" to want cool new abilities and such for your job, then fear not, because you are not alone! ^^


A riposte is a parry that moves straight into an attack. In the game, this could be implemented similarly to Monks' counterattacks, except it would require a parry to activate. A Job Ability called Riposte that turned parries into ripostes for a limited time would be neat, especially for jobs like Corsair and Ninja, who have very high parrying skill.
----------------
I love it! Devs, this for one of the possible Parrying Enhancing Abilities, ‹Yes please!› ^^


Separately from the idea of Riposte as a Job Ability, I have a wish on my dream list of things that will almost certainly never happen: Riposte as a Job Trait for Red Mage. Since Red Mages have such lousy parrying skill, Riposte would not activate enough to be overpowering, but it would be a nice extra oomph! on those occasions we're even holding a sword, let alone being attacked while holding a sword.

It's fun to imagine things.
------------
It sure is ^^, and I agree it would make perfect sense for RDMs to have a trait such as this. When it makes as much sense to couple a swordsmen-like ability with a job that lives, sleeps, and breaths with their sword, I say it's a no brainer.

Thanks for the feedback /salute

[kingfury]

I posted this as a suggestion a while back called counterbash. It's exactly the same thing with a different name. Unfortunately, SE added a spell (reprisal that does this to shield. Also if this isn't a trait but an ability its going to bee weak because i'll constantly get dispelled. What's the point if it's always dispelled or has a short duration.
-------------
You have a valid concern about the duration and ability of these enhancements getting dispelled.

When I said, "The duration of these JA's could be relatively very short in terms of JA timers, with fair recast timers to uphold game balance.", I was comparing them to JAs that have 5min timers on duration/recast and such. Creating balanced timers would be the Dev's job, but I would opt for timers that are just long enough to make a difference during battle in those tight situations while allowing core game strategy to still be what players rely on. So you wouldn't feel like the abilities are "too short", but they wouldn't last for say 5mins or longer.

Dispelling of buffs seems to be all the rave around the NM design department up at SE lol, so I'm not sure if I can help out with that issue ><; I think it's apart of the whole "Ha! We took your safety blanket, now what'cha gonna do" direction that the Devs have been designing NMs around lately, so if these abilities get swiped, you'll just have to come up with another alternative. Y'know, switch it up. ^^

[Azucares]

the lose of damage from throwing 1 shuriken would be 2100,do you know what kind of shuriken you would need to do 2100 damage and gain 30 TP? It would be to have about 1500 base damage and store tp +25000.

lol Most Shurikens have a delay of 192 which means it will have a base TP return of 5.2 TP. to calculate store TP it's the base TP return times 1+(total store tp/100). so if you have 100 store TP 5.2 X 2 = 10.4 TP. or if you have 477 store TP its 5.2 X 5.77 = 30.0 TP. (note the game doesn't record your TP past the tenth decimal place.) lol so if you really had 25000 store TP then 5.2 X 251 = 1305.2 TP will be returned. sadly characters cannot receive this amount so the true return would be 300.

So here is my question are you implying that SE needs to increase the storage tank for our TP, or do you just not know how to calculate your TP returns? lol

[Karbuncle]

lol Most Shurikens have a delay of 192 which means it will have a base TP return of 5.2 TP. to calculate store TP it's the base TP return times 1+(total store tp/100). so if you have 100 store TP 5.2 X 2 = 10.4 TP. or if you have 477 store TP its 5.2 X 5.77 = 30.0 TP. (note the game doesn't record your TP past the tenth decimal place.) lol so if you really had 25000 store TP then 5.2 X 251 = 1305.2 TP will be returned. sadly characters cannot receive this amount so the true return would be 300.

So here is my question are you implying that SE needs to increase the storage tank for our TP, or do you just not know how to calculate your TP returns? lol

I think he was.... this:

ex·ag·ger·ate

verb /igˈzajəˌrāt/ 
exaggerated, past participle; exaggerated, past tense; exaggerates, 3rd person singular present; exaggerating, present participle

Represent (something) as being larger, greater, better, or worse than it really is
- they were apt to exaggerate any aches and pains
- I couldn't sleep for three days—I'm not exaggerating

Enlarged or altered beyond normal or due proportions
- her plump thighs, exaggerated hips, and minuscule waist


I perhaps admit I could be wrong.

[Azucares]

Yeah I thought so but the way he carried on with math is absolute I figured he'd respect it more. He specifically said it would need 30 tp return. wow lol why did you post off topic, why did you have to look up the meaning of exaggerate, and why did you copy past it into the forum. lol glad I could help you expand your vocabulary. Don't worry you are wrong it seems like that's easy for you to admit.

[Habiki]

I think he was.... this:

ex·ag·ger·ate

verb /igˈzajəˌrāt/ 
exaggerated, past participle; exaggerated, past tense; exaggerates, 3rd person singular present; exaggerating, present participle

Represent (something) as being larger, greater, better, or worse than it really is
- they were apt to exaggerate any aches and pains
- I couldn't sleep for three days—I'm not exaggerating

Enlarged or altered beyond normal or due proportions
- her plump thighs, exaggerated hips, and minuscule waist


I perhaps admit I could be wrong.

@karbuncle It still made his whole argument sound stupid since he carried on in his post saying math is absolute and threw out bogus numbers like that maybe he should have thought about what he was saying instead of rambling on and on with his nonsense. Go back to BG.

[Karbuncle]

@karbuncle It still made his whole argument sound stupid since he carried on in his post saying math is absolute and threw out bogus numbers like that maybe he should have thought about what he was saying instead of rambling on and on with his nonsense. Go back to BG.

My angry geek friend, I was not debating the validity of either argument.

You should reconsider your thought process if you felt i was.

(Is Geek an insult these days? I would hope not, Cause its not intended as an insult :o, geeks rock.
...........
Then again saying "go back to BG" like an insult when its more like telling someone "Go back to your 4-story mansion with an Arcade, Indoor and out-door Swimming Pool, and all-you-can-eat buffet"... Cause thats just how awesome BG is!)

[Habiki]

My angry geek friend, I was not debating the validity of either argument.

You should reconsider your thought process if you felt i was.

(Is Geek an insult these days? I would hope not, Cause its not intended as an insult :o, geeks rock.
...........
Then again saying "go back to BG" like an insult when its more like telling someone "Go back to your 4-story mansion with an Arcade, Indoor and out-door Swimming Pool, and all-you-can-eat buffet"... Cause thats just how awesome BG is!)

It wasn't meant as an insult wish is just worried about his ninja being gimped by making throwing better or just likes to discount everyones posts cause only people on BG know anything in his opinion.

I've found alot of imformative posts there actually but some posts are downright ignorant. I imagine you and wish are just really good friends, but that doesn't mean you should be so quick to defend him it only makes you look stupid for agreeing with anything he posts. Azus post only helped clarify for others how stupid anything wish posts is. Did you not read any of his other posts hes being talking out of his ***.

I'm just glad he's not a ninja in my linkshell since he doesn't even bother with shadows according to one of his posts since
it hurts his dps so much.

I lol'd at your comment about what BG is like.

Just wish people would allow others their opinions and not act so childish and get into a pissing contest over whos right and backing it up with horrible math, exaggerated or not it doesn't help anyone here. I don't know if he was trying to get this thread locked or not but straying so far off topic will do exactly this.

Back on topic all three throwing abilitys kingfury suggested are great and would add some more utility to throwing in general,
liked that he had animations as well. Didn't much care for the shield suggestions though.

Changing throwing to do more damage isn't really neccasary and adding these abilitys won't hurt wish at all if hes so worried about his dps he can simply not use them.

I would much rather see an increase to parrying activation then more abilitys to make it useful, it's proc rate is incredibly low though it does help in evading enemy tp moves substantially, an increase to skill ups like they did to weapons would be welcome, I'm at 321 parry and besides nms nothing really gives skill ups for it.

[kingfury]

Back on topic all three throwing abilitys kingfury suggested are great and would add some more utility to throwing in general,
liked that he had animations as well. Didn't much care for the shield suggestions though.

Changing throwing to do more damage isn't really neccasary and adding these abilitys won't hurt wish at all if hes so worried about his dps he can simply not use them.

I would much rather see an increase to parrying activation then more abilitys to make it useful, it's proc rate is incredibly low though it does help in evading enemy tp moves substantially, an increase to skill ups like they did to weapons would be welcome, I'm at 321 parry and besides nms nothing really gives skill ups for it.
---------------------
Thanks for the feedback Habiki /salute ^^

Well the good thing is, similar to the shield suggestions from the OP, Parrying Enhancement Abilities could warrant some form of higher rate of activation like that of "Shield Trust", or a means to add some additional damage to the mix once the parry does in fact proc like that of "Shield Retaliation". Kuporeid suggested:

A riposte is a parry that moves straight into an attack. In the game, this could be implemented similarly to Monks' counterattacks, except it would require a parry to activate. A Job Ability called Riposte that turned parries into ripostes for a limited time would be neat, especially for jobs like Corsair and Ninja, who have very high parrying skill. (I'll put a link on the OP to ideas throughout the thread that have suggestions like these)
------------
That's really the point here of these suggestions though ^^. Rather than just hoping/wishing they will proc along with high attention paid to gear/weapon choices, sub job, and merits, adding abilities on top of all that which would just about "make them work" when you need them to during battle would be huge. Not 100% activation per say for some of the "enhances activation rate" types of abilities (like the shield, parrying, and blocking would have), but at a much higher and noticeable rate once the ability has been used.

Thanks again for the feedback /

[kingfury]

**Edit to OP**

Additional Suggestions from others throughout the thread:

Enhancement Ability ——— Suggested by ——— Description
===================================================
Throwing:
*(Multiple ideas) ——— AyinDygra ——— (Read full descriptions from post #25 (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/8178-Creating-Job-Abilities-for-Throwing-Shield-Parrying-and-Blocking?p=114168&viewfull=1#post114168))

•"Thorn in the Side" - Throw a Shuriken at a spot that is hard to reach, creating great annoyance. (Provoke-like effect and Damage over Time, recast 30sec)
•"Armor Wedge" - Lodge a Shuriken in the enemy's body so those attacking the Shuriken cause extra damage to the enemy.
•"Shadow Shuriken" - For the duration, you have a chance of throwing an extra Shuriken (no ammo consumed) for each Utsusemi shadow active.
-----------------
*(Multiple ideas) ——— Karbuncle ——— (Read full descriptions from post #34 (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/8178-Creating-Job-Abilities-for-Throwing-Shield-Parrying-and-Blocking?p=114259&viewfull=1#post114259))

•"Brain Spike"- Additional Effect: Amnesia. This shuriken, While it will not make up for the damage of lost swings, Might be useful for pulling, Have the Amnesia last up to ~1minute, and you have a method of pulling that prevents most/all Exp mobs from Being able to TP.
•"Silence Shuriken"- Additional Effect: Silence. This one, Like the above, Won't make up for lose TP/DMG For attack rounds, But if used for pulling on a casting mob, Might save your shadows from Diaga II or Poisonga II (which they love to cast).
===================================================
Shield:
===================================================
Parrying:

•"Riposte" ——— Kuporeid ——— A riposte is a parry that moves straight into an attack. In the game, this could be implemented similarly to Monks' counterattacks, except it would require a parry to activate.(Read more from post #107 (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/8178-Creating-Job-Abilities-for-Throwing-Shield-Parrying-and-Blocking?p=115989&viewfull=1#post115989))
---------
===================================================
Blocking:
---------

[Malacite]

tl;dr

Before they even consider adding throwing WS or JA, fix the price the shuriken and maybe introduce a new higher level recipe for 90+ Ninjas that can be done with Synergy for easy HQs.

Also, we already have Shield Bash.

[Karbuncle]

Despite me wanting to avoid any discussion on Shurikens.

Adding Synergy Recipes for Shurikens would not be all around awful. as Synergy can give you 1, 2, 3 stacks of an Item if you synth HQ~3. This would help a lot in the production of maybe the Amnesia/Silence Shurikens.

I won't touch much further in this >.>

[Akujima]

Here Kingfury, I got one for ya.


Shield Slam

An upgraded more powerful version of Shield Bash, that requires a Tower Shield. You knock back the opponent, and reduce their TP (kind of like demoralize. Not inhibit, but reduce). This would also be animated with a huge slam, kind of like the Weapon Skill "Shoulder Tackle" and would also inflict a decent amount of DMG, and be able to crit as well.

[Khiinroye]

Here are some ideas for some job traits involving defensive skills, and possible jobs for them:

Tactical Parry: Grants bonus TP when parrying an attack. (dnc and nin, but why not throw in drk for the lulz)

Tactical Guard: Grants bonus TP when guarding against an attack (Mnk and Pup)

Shield Mastery: Grants bonus TP when blocking an attack with a shield, and prevents spell interruptions. (pld, war, rdm?)

Shield Defense Bonus: Reduces damage taken when blocking an attack with a shield. (pld, war, maybe whm?)

I'm not sure what "Blocking" is.

[kingfury]

Here Kingfury, I got one for ya.


Shield Slam

An upgraded more powerful version of Shield Bash, that requires a Tower Shield. You knock back the opponent, and reduce their TP (kind of like demoralize. Not inhibit, but reduce). This would also be animated with a huge slam, kind of like the Weapon Skill "Shoulder Tackle" and would also inflict a decent amount of DMG, and be able to crit as well.
---------------
I'd love to see this! ^^ Very cool. Some new shields would have to be introduced to allow a variety of other jobs to take advantage of "Tower Shield only" part, but that shouldn't be that tough to add. I can see a WHM doing this already! :D

Thanks for the feedback /salute

[wish12oz]

lol Most Shurikens have a delay of 192 which means it will have a base TP return of 5.2 TP. to calculate store TP it's the base TP return times 1+(total store tp/100). so if you have 100 store TP 5.2 X 2 = 10.4 TP. or if you have 477 store TP its 5.2 X 5.77 = 30.0 TP. (note the game doesn't record your TP past the tenth decimal place.) lol so if you really had 25000 store TP then 5.2 X 251 = 1305.2 TP will be returned. sadly characters cannot receive this amount so the true return would be 300.

So here is my question are you implying that SE needs to increase the storage tank for our TP, or do you just not know how to calculate your TP returns? lol

It's funny how the only thing I said you can argue against is when I completely made up arbitrary numbers that were OBVIOUSLY way to high (unless you're dumb) to prove a point about the ridiculousness of what is required to make throwing damage useful.



I'm just glad he's not a ninja in my linkshell since he doesn't even bother with shadows according to one of his posts since
it hurts his dps so much.

I said I don't cast shadows when its not useful. If a mob has a 20% acc rate on you(which is just about everything inside abyssea), and only hits for 200-400, then it needs to make 10-20 attacks to do enough damage to require less then a cure 5, but thats usually when I cast it on my WHM mule, which has infinite MP anyway which is why MNK/WAR is so popular as a tank. How long does it take for a mob to attack you 10-20 times? 20-60 seconds? You really think it's worth lowering DPS so you can not cast cure 5 on yourself every 20 seconds? I don't, and when I do, I cast shadows. Your selective reading is awesome, but just so you know, when it matters, I cast shadows. I also main tank on NIN and main heal on WHM at the same time, you wish you had someone like me in your LS. When you get to my level, come back and discuss battle strategy with me again ok?

[kingfury]

Enhancement Ability ——— Suggested by ——— Description
===================================================
Guarding:

•"Submission Wall" ——— Kingfury ——— Enhances Guarding by punishing an attacker through the unlocking of an ancient martial arts technique that hardens ones' muscles to the point that rivals stone. The sudden fear of further self inflicted damage imposed on the attacker instantly causes doubts as to whether they should stop or continue attacking. Adds additional Earth damage (akin to how Earth Spikes would work) to successful guards. Inflicts Killer effect upon target. (Timed duration of effect)

[kingfury]

**Edit to OP**

Enhancement Ability ——— Suggested by ——— Description
===================================================
Guarding:

•"Fluid Wall" ——— Kingfury ——— Enhances Guarding by unlocking an ancient martial arts technique that allows the user to skillfully mold and adjust to physical attacks as if they were like water. Reduces physical damage by absorbing a portion of the attack from a successful guard. Adds additional Water damage (akin to how Water Spikes would work) to successful guards. (Timed duration of effect)
*Note: Inspired by none other than the great Bruce Lee.
"Don't get set into one form, adapt it and build your own, and let it grow, be like water. Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like water. Now you put water in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put water into a bottle it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend." (Quoted from Bruce Lee: A Warrior's Journey (2000). Here, Lee was reciting lines he wrote for his short lived role on the TV series Longstreet. (Source "Bruce Lee Wiki" (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:SykZhc__VeMJ:en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Bruce_Lee+bruce+lee+compares+blocking+to+water&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=safari&source=www.google.com))
===================================================
Throwing:

•"Syphoned Mark" ——— Kingfury ——— Enhances Throwing by causing your next throwing attack to drain either TP, MP, or HP. (Instant Single Use)

[Kimble]

Fluid Wall makes no sense because if its "martial arts" it would be something Monk or to a less extent pup related and neither of them use shield. Unless you think "blocking" is something else but even then, that doesnt make any sense at all.

[kingfury]

Yeah, this would be under the "Guarding" list of Defensive Enhancing Abilities, not Shield. The EA itself is not dependent on the "Martial Arts" Job Trait for it's effectiveness, but rather the level of a Player's Guarding skill level.

Guard- to take up a protective or defensive stance
In this case the player is the obstacle that's "impeding" the motion and flow of the attacks directed at them by using a martial arts Guarding technique that mimmic the behavior of water allowing them to technically "mold to" and "absorb" a portion of attack's energy. Like Bruce Lee was saying in quote. ^^

[Khiinroye]

It's called guarding, and it already reduces damage by acting as a negative critical hit.

[AyinDygra]

Guard, Evasion, Parry, Shield (these are the 4 skills you're making abilities for)
It might be best to use the game's term of "Guarding" attacks, rather than blocking, since "Blocking" generally refers to the function of a Shield.

[Kimble]

Yeah, there is no such thing as "blocking"

And... yeah, Guard sucks.

[kingfury]

It's called guarding, and it already reduces damage by acting as a negative critical hit.
-----------
Oops, >< you're absolutely right! Quick fix needed around the Thread lol. Thanks. I meant "Guarding" ^^ but brain defined the visual action as "Blocking" lol.

Nothing wrong with reducing a bit more damage though.

[Kimble]

Great, now we are all going to have to tell you again how Guarding is useless, that the way its coded, skill doesnt have any affect on your guard rate just like parrying, and how for guard to even proc, you have to fail your eva and counter check, as well as not having shadows up to absorb the hit if /nin.

[kingfury]

Better change the wiki on the topic of proc rate then:

"Guard only works when the player is using a Hand-to-Hand weapon (or barehand). The higher your Guarding Skill, the better the chance that it will activate."
And yeah, I'm aware of all that stuff since it's the same for folks wielding a shield hoping to "Block" an attack. Like the EA for Shield on the OP (Shield Trust), I would opt that Guarding should definitely have an EA that increases the proc rate so that it can rise above all these nice factors.

[Kimble]

Monk already has counter, which over all, is much more useful than guarding.

[kingfury]

Agreed, but this is all about bolstering these slow to proc combat skills, so these abilities would just be nice little bonuses to what some jobs can already do.

Like a PLD can already block like a champ with a shield, so any other shield abilities would only contribute to their efficiency. Other jobs however, that don't do so well at blocking with a shield but have decent shield skill might see new life while using these abilities so long as they're truly effective.

The goal is to just bolster the combat skills so players might see them more often during battle.

[Kimble]

Here is your problem though, by trying to bolster these combat skills for other jobs, you are going to overpower the job that is most proficient with said skill. Factoring all the other defensive skills MNK (guarding) and PLD (shield), your changes would make them almost unkillable and greatly affecting balance.

Only 2 jobs can use Guarding, MNK and PUP, and we already went over Shield. WAR as C skill and all other jobs have D-F skill.

[kingfury]

I think so long as the durations of these abilities are tailored to work for shorter amounts of time compared to our standard JA's, they shouldn't grant a player God mode status and make them ultimately non-killable.

From the OP "Note: The duration of these Enhancement Abilities could be relatively very short compared to most standard JA timers, with fair recast timers to uphold game balance."
A WAR can reach an A level skill rating with gear and merits easy and most other jobs could see some decent boost as well if they plan accordingly.

[Kimble]

Considering you can keep counterstance up 100% anything to guard wont be all that useful.

And, If a WAR is gearing to get their shield skill to A level, that WAR is doing everything wrong.

[kingfury]

^^ That's because Shield procs suck in the hands of any other job except PLD atm lol. Axe may be 2nd in line to GA, but it's still nothing to scoff at in terms of damage output when done correctly.

Of course I don't want to open the can of worms that is the "enjoying new and different ways to play the game for each individual" argument since it's very dependent on each players perspective of what they personally enjoy about playing the game, and most players simply follow what everyone else tells them to be instead of finding their own play style. I'll say, Shield + Axe combo can be fun on WAR, and leave it at that.

I can say this though, during solo or duo play (minus a stun caster) a battle against a pesky monster that likes to either spam nasty spells or annoying TP moves, Axe and sword have nice stuns that help even out the battle. GA melee attacks don't always interrupt casters like a nice smash axe can. If better shield efficiency through new abilities could be found, there's a few jobs that would find it very useful. I'm still keeping my fingers crossed for a GA stun ability, but till then, if I need to spam stun my trusty Axe and Shield will be whipped out.