Raise the Minimum Requirement for entering Abyssea to Lv70 or 75

[Akujima]

This should have been what it was in the first place. And if not 75, at least 70 and no lower. It makes no sense, because being able to leech in Abyssea at Lv30 just kills off all other content, save for skilling up later once you hit 90.

I don't know why anyone would argue that this should not happen. And what is the point in having special items for new players like the Destrier Beret to keep their skills capped up untill Lv30, all so that they can be SUPREMELY Power Leveled by their friends. And when they get all the way to 90, their Lv30 skill levels will be useless anyways.

I really don't know what SE was thinking when they decided to allow Lv30 people to enter Abyssea... Seriously, what can a Lv30 do in Abyssea, OTHER THAN be extremely power leveled??? So what if there is some minor Limit Breaks in between? It's not going to stop people from just getting one easy job to beat Maat with (SAM), so that they can open up all the Genkai and not have to worry about it anymore.


Bottom Line: Allowing Lv30 requirement to enter Abyss opens up the opportunity for players to exploit and bypass other areas/content of the game.

[Myrid]

I dunno. I think they should lower the level cap. I'd love to have unlimited c3's spammed on me from a 21 whm that has MM atma, and get them some exp for keeping me alive.

[Greatguardian]

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...-from-30-to-70

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...leveling-91-99

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...ssea-from-30-1

Because these forums obviously haven't had enough of this drivel.

[Aliekber]

No, I like being able to powerlevel new subs/mains.

[Heady]

Um, yea..... Like Greatguardian said in a more cut and paste manner, this has been gone over, and rehashed and drama filled in multiple threads already.

[svengalis]

This should have been what it was in the first place. And if not 75, at least 70 and no lower. It makes no sense, because being able to leech in Abyssea at Lv30 just kills off all other content, save for skilling up later once you hit 90.

I don't know why anyone would argue that this should not happen. And what is the point in having special items for new players like the Destrier Beret to keep their skills capped up untill Lv30, all so that they can be SUPREMELY Power Leveled by their friends. And when they get all the way to 90, their Lv30 skill levels will be useless anyways.

I really don't know what SE was thinking when they decided to allow Lv30 people to enter Abyssea... Seriously, what can a Lv30 do in Abyssea, OTHER THAN be extremely power leveled??? So what if there is some minor Limit Breaks in between? It's not going to stop people from just getting one easy job to beat Maat with (SAM), so that they can open up all the Genkai and not have to worry about it anymore.


Bottom Line: Allowing Lv30 requirement to enter Abyss opens up the opportunity for players to exploit and bypass other areas/content of the game.

Why would I want to level the old way? It's pointless at this point in the game. It's all about endgame, leveling is just a time sync to get there.

[Akujima]

Why would I want to level the old way? It's pointless at this point in the game. It's all about endgame, leveling is just a time sync to get there.


Dang, what is NOT a time-sink then?


And just continue to bypass the point that it makes all the other content pretty much obsolete.

[Krisan]

No, I like being able to powerlevel new subs/mains.
Just because you like it doesn't mean it was ever a good idea from a game design standpoint.


Why would I want to level the old way? It's pointless at this point in the game. It's all about endgame, leveling is just a time sync to get there.
The old way doesn't even exist anymore, between FoV and twice the exp per mob.. The old way has been extinct for awhile now. There is an entirely new 1-75 experience in the game now, and most people just don't even try with it.

[Akujima]

Just because you like it doesn't mean it was ever a good idea from a game design standpoint.

This guy is right.

If it was never implemented, you wouldn't be able to QQ if it got rolled back.

[Arlan]

No Thanks!
I like the idea of being able to leach if u got friends who can help. I enjoy more jobs than i ever had cause of this option. Case is closed.

There are too many of these threads, dont need more.
most ppl i know are happy with how it currently is.

[Miera]

Not this again!

[rog]

Not this again...

[Mirage]

It's too late now anyway. Killing abyssea leeching now would give everyone who did it an enormous advantage over those that didn't start doing it in time. It would make things worse for new players, or returning players, while not affecting the players who already did it at all.

[Avina]

(before you read, please understand, I don't actually want them to delete old content, but this seems to be the reality of the situation for me)

From a business perspective they've really botched their own game up because frankly, we are loaded with (virtually) useless expansion content that no one needs to do anymore, zones upon zones that are unused for XP or quests or missions or otherwise, because all the lower level stuff is irrelevant now. They can't release a new full expansion because they are too close to their hard drive limit on the PS2.

The sad reality is that they basically killed their old game and now the old content is filling our hard drives, stuff that doesn't appeal to the people who practically live in Abyssea and leech all their jobs to 90. It hasn't just killed exping, its killed crafting too, since now 90% of all gear crafters have garbage recipes since no one gives a care about the lower level game anymore since Abyssea made it all irrelevant. There really isn't a ton of logic in anything that they are doing. It would make far more sense to just straight up delete all of the old content that no one plays anymore so they could make new content that people will buy and play, since all their actions indicate that they want the game to be all Abyssea now. Yet they won't get rid of the old content because they have some strange warped point of view that we'll all return to the old content once we're done with our fun in Abyssea. It isn't working out quite like that at all.

Leaving the cap ensures that experience parties will stay dead and all the expansions before Abyssea are basically trash data. Raising the cap would force players back into those zones, would raise the demand for good gear at lower levels, and, god forbid, actually force people to play the video game.

[Sama]

No, I like being able to powerlevel new subs/mains.

Powerlevel? You mean leech?

Leeching and PLing are two different thing nowaday.

With the new valor system you get sooooooo much more xp from killing mobs outside abyssea area. You people don't do it just because you are lazy and rely on others to kill and help you level. That's LEECH.

SE raised the xp on outside mob as well removed the time limit on valor page was supposed to be for people 'powerlevel' themselves.

[Avina]

It's too late now anyway. Killing abyssea leeching now would give everyone who did it an enormous advantage over those that didn't start doing it in time. It would make things worse for new players, or returning players, while not affecting the players who already did it at all.

Hey, I and everyone else who leveled up any job to 75 before Abyssea came out were already screwed over then by Abyssea leeching since we had to take the time to level all that stuff up before it became easy like it has. It 100% would not make things worse for new players since raising the cap would force there to be more lower level parties which is what most lower level people are looking to do anyways, and I hardly think returning players would be all that steamed either. The only people who would be upset about it are the ones who actively rely on trading keys to boxes to get their jobs up.

[Octaviane]

And the game will slowly dwindle down to it's inevitable end when people get to 99 and no new people are joining. The forums will be the same as they are now, filled with complaints that there is nothing to do, why no new content, why no new areas, why this, why that, can you sell me in-game content for all the gear/jobs I need to get to 99 in 1 day. FFXI is but a passing moment in the bigger picture. Enjoy the moment, regardless of your opinions.

[Arlan]

Hey, I and everyone else who leveled up any job to 75 before Abyssea came out were already screwed over then by Abyssea leeching since we had to take the time to level all that stuff up before it became easy like it has. It 100% would not make things worse for new players since raising the cap would force there to be more lower level parties which is what most lower level people are looking to do anyways, and I hardly think returning players would be all that steamed either. The only people who would be upset about it are the ones who actively rely on trading keys to boxes to get their jobs up.

Speak for yourself.
I leveled 6 jobs to lvl75 before abyssea
And I for one, don't feel screwed that there is an option to do this.
I had friends who quit ffxi because the game took too much time before.
Even tho now exp rates are quicker, abyssea is still king, And since A few returning players came, I helped them to leach their job to lvl90 and spam missions and other contents with them, including Abyssea since we enjoyed gaming together..

I enjoy gaming with new players, teaching them how job mechanics work, and getting their lvls asap so I can do contents with them. I do old content too but not the ones that bore me of course.

Plus, ever since abyssea, Now I got 10 jobs at lvl90.
I took 4 jobs to abyssea and leached. I never knew I would ever enjoy playing or even learning those 4 new jobs I got.
Blu. BLM, pup, and sam, where the jobs btw.

So don't say people who played before abyssea where screwed cause we still enjoy this content and some of us like how it is compared to before.

I for one, am one of those who feels more relieved.
Might even ask my RL friend who quit the game to join the game again since we could do contents together once I get him leaching. There are so many things to do in FFXI, I still think there is a lot of hopes left.

[Aliekber]

Powerlevel? You mean leech?

Leeching and PLing are two different thing nowaday.

Yeah, not like I can solo entire camps on BLM on one account to PL the other, along with any LS mates who need XP.

[Akujima]

From a business perspective they've really botched their own game up because frankly, we are loaded with (virtually) useless expansion content that no one needs to do anymore, zones upon zones that are unused for XP or quests or missions or otherwise, because all the lower level stuff is irrelevant now.


Excellent post. Why is this an excellent post you ask? Because it puts forth strong and valid points that should not be overlooked.

I was basically saying the same thing in my Original Post, that SE butchered their game completely. Forcing the cap to 70 or 75 would make the game last longer, be more enjoyable by exploring new area's and allow for people to actually skill up and learn their jobs before they hit max level.

Give us one good reason why they should NOT raise the cap up to 70 or 75, to enter Abyssea?... Because Avina and I just gave you several reasons why they should.

[Arlan]

I already gave reasons.
More exploration when ur lvl capped with friends so you can do more contents with friends.
Less exploration when your too focused on more grinding.

You and I are veterans, so exploration for us doesn't exist in this game, assuming we explored everywhere in the game already. But I can tell you, newer people can explore more if they choose to durring missions and stuff when they reach at lvl cap since thats when you can start getting things done.

[Meyi]

Raise it to 90!

[Akujima]

I already gave reasons.
More exploration when ur lvl capped with friends so you can do more contents with friends.
Less exploration when your too focused on more grinding.


You missed the point where Avina said things are "irrelevant" then. Irrelevant means that they have no importance anymore. The old content and old zones hold no importance for anyone who just leeched to 90, as is there is no importance for those zones to exist in endgame, they might as well not even be in the game.

Tell me, do you go to Carpenters Landing just to experience that zone for fun? Do you go to Bibiki Bay because there is something important to do there?

They really need to take more care and thought into how to develop and MMORPG. Even in WoW, when Wrath of the Lich King came out... Sure it made all the epics from Burning Crusade near worthless after that, but it didn't allow for 80% of WoW to be skipped through, just so that people could experience endgame content faster.

[Avina]

But I can tell you, newer people can explore more if they choose to durring missions and stuff when they reach at lvl cap since thats when you can start getting things done.

Newer players will give up on the game for it seeming 'dead' if they don't find a truely altruistic player who will willingly help them and walk them through the hoops of getting a spot in an Abyssea party as a leech and will also help them make progress in missions. If you are such an altruistic person then really, I applaud you. We need more of you.

Sadly that isn't the case for most of the veterans playing this game. People prefer to just tell the newbie what to do to advance instead of actually doing anything with the newbie. You have to realize that there are plenty of people who don't run into someone like you who is going to help them get a spot in an Abyssea leech party and help them through old content.

Why were things better for newbies before Abyssea? Because everyone had to go through the exact same steps to level up a new job; veterans, newbies, returning players, whenever any of them had to work on a new job to use in the game, they had to do go through the same steps. Veterans playing together with newbies was a built in necessity and how you met people, got invited into linkshells, and so on and so forth.

A newbie has no cruor so can't buy keys, so they can't key their way through levels. They won't be meeting veterans in exp party who can help them because all the veterans choose another mode of exping. The only shot they have at really getting anywhere is to play the game the lonely way, figuring stuff out by themselves and trying to solo to 75, or they luck out and run into a player like you. Given that this is an MMO, players will give up long before reaching 75 if they are trying to play the game alone, so their only chance is to run into someone nice. If they don't, its a tough road... and really hasn't opened up the game for them in any way.

[bungiefan]

It took me 8 years to get my first job to 75, and I would not want to do that again with any other job. Now I have a second job at 75 thanks to Abyssea, and a couple at subjob level for when the cap is 99. Without Abyssea, I'd never finish the storylines in this game that I want to with the time I have to play.

[Sparthos]

It's already evident this game is dead to new players, what's the point of raising the cap to 70-75 when the damage is done?

There is no way to leech if you're new even if you make your own PT since you cant buy keys and FoV/GoV is an epic grind where you are going to most likely be alone for most of the journey to 75. If you picked the wrong job then you're screwed doubly since certain classes make poor soloers.

Things like Genkai, AF quests and other past times? Dead. This game is Final Fantasy XI: Offline till you reach Abyssea and hopefully connect with some older players who would be willing to give you a taste of other content like perhaps Sky, Dynamis or even things like Salvage/Nyzul.

Knowing this, what would be the point of raising the level cap? Things arent going back to 6man PTs and EXP overall has become trivial as a whole. If you want new content, that's fine but making EXP a grind in a misguided attempt to go back to the old ways or "help new players" is bunk.

[Nebo]

Sadly that isn't the case for most of the veterans playing this game. People prefer to just tell the newbie what to do to advance instead of actually doing anything with the newbie. You have to realize that there are plenty of people who don't run into someone like you who is going to help them get a spot in an Abyssea leech party and help them through old content.

I find this interesting because I find these reasons to be exactly why having a low level cap inside abyssea is important in today's FFXI.

The game right now is very top heavy. For what actual NEW players there are coming to FFXI (lets not kid ourselves this number is very small. Returning players a more the issue), the only real way to empower them to join the existing FFXI playerbase is to allow them to reach high level quickly and participate.

Raising the level cap inside abyssea would not accomplish anything good for Square Enix (or the playerbase). Think about what it did. It was a measure to bring back/keep us old time veterans interested with less intense grinding, while simultaneously easing the integration process of new players with a top heavy playerbase.

Joining a linkshell is something you have to do in this game to get anything done and should be a new player's first priority. Linkshells do these abyssea runs on a regular basis to level up sub jobs and more useful jobs to their LS. If a LS is recruiting new members, they will absolutely level up their new players as well.

Even before abyssea, mid level parties were difficult to come by. The veterans that were leveling sub jobs or new jobs were just Astral Burning, chigoe burning, or in an East Raunfaure [S]/Qufim Island level sync burn fest.

Allowing new players to reach high level more quickly is what will allow them to join the existing top heavy playerbase. Not trying to force high level players to go back to do the low level grind again.

[Avina]

Allowing new players to reach high level more quickly is what will allow them to join the existing top heavy playerbase. Not trying to force high level players to go back to do the low level grind again.

A couple things. I do think that Abyssea has allowed for exactly what you have described to happen in some cases. But I have a pretty newbie friendly linkshell and I know that many of our own players have lamented that they want to actually play the game and not just stand around while they get exping. If they do get to 90 in this method, they then get told that they need to go and grind and skill up because they are worthless since they can't hit anything with their weapons or their magic spells are being resisted. Then they have to go and spam on monsters until they get useful. It's a sucky road.

Yes, having a linkshell as a returning or new player is key in order to get things done, but it was *not* required in order to go through the simple process of just leveling up as it is now. Before Abyssea came out did not do /sea all 1-60 invite to find people search for exp party. I could do /sea all 20-30 invite and get plenty of options, as could anyone other newbie looking to get some exp, and I personally preferred to not wait around for an invite so I often made my own parties so I spent very little time, if ever, standing around seeking.

But to be honest, I have to agree with rog on a point he made awhile ago, to abolish experience points. Because really what they have done with experience points in Abyssea is make you go through a terrible and meaningless chore of trading keys or even just standing around while you hide in some corner somewhere while the party kills dolls. There's nothing to be proud of to have all jobs at 90 anymore, you probably only have three of them that are geared and know how to play and the rest you suck at anyways. So why not just get rid of exp, and get rid of the older content in the game so we can make new content? Why have these things at all if exp is just burned through like it is? SE has made it so that this game is only Abyssea and all worthwhile leveling takes place by standing around in Abyssea, so *why* is exp even there these days?

Again, I like the old game and want it back, but SE seems to have a split personality on how to deal with this issue.

[Arlan]

You missed the point where Avina said things are "irrelevant" then. Irrelevant means that they have no importance anymore. The old content and old zones hold no importance for anyone who just leeched to 90, as is there is no importance for those zones to exist in endgame, they might as well not even be in the game.

Tell me, do you go to Carpenters Landing just to experience that zone for fun? Do you go to Bibiki Bay because there is something important to do there?

They really need to take more care and thought into how to develop and MMORPG. Even in WoW, when Wrath of the Lich King came out... Sure it made all the epics from Burning Crusade near worthless after that, but it didn't allow for 80% of WoW to be skipped through, just so that people could experience endgame content faster.

Since you put it that way, What they need to do is add new upgrades for AF3+3 for the old contents they have to keep old contents going as far as endgames go. But raising the lvl cap for abyssea is insane and not the solution.

They could add new content on the other zones you mentioned as well for more upgradable gear.
Hmm.. I never played WoW and never will since its on PC only and im a gamer who plays on consoles.

But again, I disagree with lvl cap should be raised for abyssea. They can add useful contents outside abyssea for better gear for lvl90+ to keep the rest of the zones usefulness.

[Panthera]

Leeches are by definition, parasites. Leeches are detrimental to their host alliance by consuming a party slot that could go to a level 75 player. The effect is that for each leech, the ally is weaker than it would be if it had level +75 members. Kills are slower, and experience points per hour is less. While having a single chest-opener is necessary, it can be handled by a Bard or Corsair, who can handle the responsibility in-between buffs. Clearly, having a Bard do double Marches while handling chest opening is better for the Alliance than having a LV30 of any other job performing the same service, but at least the "leech" is doing *something* for the alliance. Where i have a real problem is when multiple people stand around doing nothing, or when they're "helping" with keys when one handle it without assistance.

Do-nothing leeching is unfair to alliance members because higher level members do all the work, the hasting, refreshing, curing, pulling, add controlling, and damage dealing while the leech blocks higher level members from joining. What's more, leeching is unfair to the leech himself as well. Leeching takes away from the accomplishment of gaining a level 90 job. Standing around and doing nothing and then saying,"I have a level 90 Black Mage" is just nothing to brag about. Further, it takes away from everyone else who has that same level 90 job. So what? if you have a level 90 Anything, because anyone can do it just by leeching. It's climbing to a mountain's summit that makes for fine stories, not resting there and enjoying the view.

[HFX7686]

Oh, it's this thread again. I missed this thread.

I don't see the point of changing the level requirements now, such a long time after the first Abyssea expansion was released. Just don't play with people that did this if it offends you so much.

[hiko]

Excellent post. Why is this an excellent post you ask? Because it puts forth strong and valid points that should not be overlooked.

I was basically saying the same thing in my Original Post, that SE butchered their game completely. Forcing the cap to 70 or 75 would make the game last longer, be more enjoyable by exploring new area's and allow for people to actually skill up and learn their jobs before they hit max level.

Give us one good reason why they should NOT raise the cap up to 70 or 75, to enter Abyssea?... Because Avina and I just gave you several reasons why they should.
because lots of "new" account are returning players or HL players lvling an alt and most of em would'nt do it if they had to deal with old xp (they would loose more subscriber by raising cap)



A couple things. I do think that Abyssea has allowed for exactly what you have described to happen in some cases. But I have a pretty newbie friendly linkshell and I know that many of our own players have lamented that they want to actually play the game and not just stand around while they get exping. If they do get to 90 in this method, they then get told that they need to go and grind and skill up because they are worthless since they can't hit anything with their weapons or their magic spells are being resisted. Then they have to go and spam on monsters until they get useful. It's a sucky road.

Yes, having a linkshell as a returning or new player is key in order to get things done, but it was *not* required in order to go through the simple process of just leveling up as it is now. Before Abyssea came out did not do /sea all 1-60 invite to find people search for exp party. I could do /sea all 20-30 invite and get plenty of options, as could anyone other newbie looking to get some exp, and I personally preferred to not wait around for an invite so I often made my own parties so I spent very little time, if ever, standing around seeking.

if you have a "new player" LS why dont you just do LSPT to lvl up?
I did most than 75% of my first job with LS pt and that was way before you can lvl sync.

[noodles355]

Give us one good reason why they should NOT raise the cap up to 70 or 75, to enter Abyssea?... Because Avina and I just gave you several reasons why they should.Because it takes extra programming, and achieves nothing important.

What, you think someone who's been abyssea leveled from 30-90 will be worse at their job than someone who leveled it "properly"? Sorry, no. Crap players will be crap players, good players will be good players, doesn't matter if it took them 2 months to reach Lv90 or 2 days. You don't need to slowly grind a job to "learn" it. Hell, A few weeks ago I leeched my Corsair to Lv90. I have solid melee and ranged TP sets, three different WS sets, quick draw set, idle/kiting sets, PDT and MDT sets, phantom roll and random deal sets, and so on and so forth. My Skills are capped (and merited), and my Cor specific abilities are fully merited. I'm a significantly better corsair than those who fulltime the same set of shit gear, even if they slowly leveled their job so they could "learn" how to play it. I will be more useful and output more damage when required than those players. I know when and how to Quick Draw, how to maximise it's damage. How to get the most out of my rolls, which rolls are the best for which situation, which SJ is the best for which situation. I basically know the job inside and out. Did I need to level slowly to learn that? Hell no.
And yesterday I leeched my warrior to 75. Later this week I will finish it up to Lv90. Again, I will be a much better Warrior than any of the shitty full-pearle Warriors, even if they "leveled slowly to learn the job". That's just that. I'll say it again: There are good players, there are bad players. It doesn't matter if they lvl a job in 2 months or 2 days, at Level 90 they will still be good players or bad players.

"be more enjoyable by exploring new area's"? You may find that enjoyable but not everyone else does. You're basically assuming that everyone will find the same things in FFXI enjoyable. That's a very bad assumption to make. This point is thus fairly irrelevant.

And guess what? A new player doesn't have to leech his job to 90 in abyssea. They are more than welcome to explore other zones and do FoV. You are also free to level how you want.

tl;dr:
You don't like it? Great, don't do it. Not everyone enjoys the same things.
The amount of time it takes to level a job does not affect how well a player will be at that job 95% of the time.
Protip: You learn a lot more about your job by reading sites like BlueGartr, Wiki, Allakhazam, etc and asking your linkshell or friends than you do by "leveling properly".

[Akujima]

"be more enjoyable by exploring new area's"? You may find that enjoyable but not everyone else does. You're basically assuming that everyone will find the same things in FFXI enjoyable. That's a very bad assumption to make. This point is thus fairly irrelevant.

And guess what? A new player doesn't have to leech his job to 90 in abyssea. They are more than welcome to explore other zones and do FoV. You are also free to level how you want.

tl;dr:
You don't like it? Great, don't do it. Not everyone enjoys the same things.
The amount of time it takes to level a job does not affect how well a player will be at that job 95% of the time.
Protip: You learn a lot more about your job by reading sites like BlueGartr, Wiki, Allakhazam, etc and asking your linkshell or friends than you do by "leveling properly".


Talk about Self Confidence.

So then why don't we make every zone look the same? Heck why are there even color tones in the game, I'm sure the game would be just as interesting if every character was the same height, same color and composed of crude easily thrown together pixels... Sheesh... It would save alot of time for the developers to actually make "useful content" than just trying to make things look nice, right? Corsairs shouldn't look like pirates, because you might enjoy that but I don't. So it's irrelevant that Jobs should be recognizable by certain distinguishable characteristics. So the same should be said for zones, ya?

Wanna know why WoW is popular? Because it forces players to level up by exploring new zones and area's. It forces you to go on an adventure, and not just fight the same mobs over and over again in the same zone. After you finish a quest, you can't do that quest again, and once you've reached a certain Level, no more quests in that area will give you enough EXP for it to be worthwhile to stay in that zone.

FFXI was like this before Abyssea, but now that's all changed.

SE should take a hint, and realize why people want to play an MMORPG: Because they like the idea of adventuring within a colorful fantasy world, and playing that adventure with other people online. But somehow MMO's turned into shopping malls for equipment, and all people care about is maximizing their DPS (ie, how big they can grow their epeen). It's sad to see that SE followed this way of thinking to the extreme.


And...


People called me a "noob" when I started leveling as a SAM/DRG Lv30 to Lv60, and I got kicked from a PT because I was a MNK/DRG at Lv41. Is that stuff on BG? Can you think outside the box and tell me how I figured out that /DRG is actually a nice subjob for low level melee, in a time when most everyone followed the cookie cutter /war or /nin?

I rocked face as DRK/DRG, MNK/DRG and SAM/DRG from Lv30 to Lv60, even against other people using the same jobs and were equally geared, but decided to sub /war or /nin. And I thought of it all without consulting any forum or anyone in game. I'm pretty sure I was one of the first people to popularize /DRG also, because 2 weeks after, I started to see an increase in wyvern earring sales.

MNK/DRG Lv41
Tropical Punches +1 (For 0 Delay and tons of Accuracy), Olibanum Sachet, Voyager Sallet, Peacock Charm, Cassie Earring, Wyvern Earring, Jujitsu Gi, Ochuido's Kote, Jaeger Ring (I don't like -20 DEF), Rajas Ring, Wyvern Mantle (+6 atk with /drg, best mantle for /drg before amemet+1), Brown Belt, Magna M Chausses (for some extra DEX and MP to throw at Cassie Earring), Fuma Kyahan.

The gear listed = 16% Haste at Lv41, A crap ton of needed accuracy for Raging Fists, and nice 0 delay weapons to swing even faster.

Food I used: Depended on the mob really, but usually it was Meat Mithkabobs.

Barely missed a swing, didn't even need madrigal or hunter's roll and pounded face like no other. Figured that all out by myself without consulting any website or anyone. And it was FUN to play.

[wish12oz]

The old way doesn't even exist anymore

The old way totally does exist still! I mean, I went and exped DNC yesterday from 1 to 30 in about 5 hours solo, that totally still counts as the old way cause I was in original and rotz zones, even a cop zone!

[Miiyo]

Why do you care so much about what other people are doing? Last night I ate food. I showered. I took a poop. Does any of that matter to you? Why do you want to restrict the way others play just so that they can be forced to join you in what you prefer to do. I do not think grinding is fun. I don't think it betters you at your job. Attacks are automatic. I won't be able to swing better or cast magic any better just because I grind. You have your ability to grind. Go grind! No one is stopping you. People go to abyssea at lower levels because they also don't want to grind. That's their business, just as your infatuation with grinding is your business. All abyssea did is provide a way to level more jobs. Learning your job is not dependent upon how you level. It's about how you comprehend your skills. Grind outside abyssea, or level up faster in abyssea. It's just an additional option. Nothing more.

[Miiyo]

Wanna know why WoW is popular? Because it forces players to level up by exploring new zones and area's. It forces you to go on an adventure, and not just fight the same mobs over and over again in the same zone. After you finish a quest, you can't do that quest again, and once you've reached a certain Level, no more quests in that area will give you enough EXP for it to be worthwhile to stay in that zone.

FFXI was like this before Abyssea, but now that's all changed.



You are delusional. I would put money that the 2 years right before abyssea was when the most people stopped playing. Everyone was fighting the same mobs. Exping in the same areas, and aiming for the same prizes. It was like, "why play when i can see 1000 other people have the same thing I'm aiming for." FFXI is a big world, but the PLAYERS chose which camps were "worthwhile." There was hardly any deviation from these as well. Mention trying to camp somewhere else and people ignore you. Not to mention sitting around screaming for a party for hours is NOT fun. It was a dead system that outlived itself. Since you find that fun however, feel free to shout in wg for a party. Since no one wants to do it anymore, you'll get the exciting thrill of shouting for a party forever with no success!!! Lucky you!

[Greatguardian]

Leeches are by definition, parasites. Leeches are detrimental to their host alliance by consuming a party slot that could go to a level 75 player. The effect is that for each leech, the ally is weaker than it would be if it had level +75 members. Kills are slower, and experience points per hour is less. While having a single chest-opener is necessary, it can be handled by a Bard or Corsair, who can handle the responsibility in-between buffs. Clearly, having a Bard do double Marches while handling chest opening is better for the Alliance than having a LV30 of any other job performing the same service, but at least the "leech" is doing *something* for the alliance. Where i have a real problem is when multiple people stand around doing nothing, or when they're "helping" with keys when one handle it without assistance.

Do-nothing leeching is unfair to alliance members because higher level members do all the work, the hasting, refreshing, curing, pulling, add controlling, and damage dealing while the leech blocks higher level members from joining. What's more, leeching is unfair to the leech himself as well. Leeching takes away from the accomplishment of gaining a level 90 job. Standing around and doing nothing and then saying,"I have a level 90 Black Mage" is just nothing to brag about. Further, it takes away from everyone else who has that same level 90 job. So what? if you have a level 90 Anything, because anyone can do it just by leeching. It's climbing to a mountain's summit that makes for fine stories, not resting there and enjoying the view.

You make the assumption that any half-decent level 90 DD+Mage combo can't full clear entire camps on their own. You don't need more than 5 people tops to make the absolute maximum EXP/hr available at any given camp, 3 of which are just going to be pulling nonstop.

If adding additional level 75+ adds absolutely nothing to the killspeed, adding additional level 30's subtracts absolutely nothing from the killspeed.

Leeches are parasites, whether they are level 30 or level 90. That 30brd keyspammer? Leech. That level 90 NIN in full aurore gear who doesn't gear swap and puts out 500 damage Jins? Leech. If anything, the Keyspammer is more productive than the gimp-ass level 90 with absolute shit gear and atma. If an entire alliance is made up of Leeches, either level 30 or 90, of course the alliance is going to fail. If the alliance has even a single non-leech player, the amount of leeches there won't matter at all.

[rog]

You don't need to slowly grind a job to "learn" it.In fact, doing so can potentially HURT you, as you learn bad habits doing things that are good at low levels, but bad at higher levels. Not to mention you will definitely learn the job better playing it at level 90 than at level 30 doing nothing but auto attack and ws.

[Avina]

So why have experience points?

And I don't say this to sound snarky. I am genuinely confused why Square-Enix allows us to leech and burn things as they do, apparently since even they've taken the stance that exping is a waste of time, so why not just start everyone off at 90, they can unlock the jobs they want to play as on their own, get their own gear, since apparently they want the game to be blitzed.

[Mirage]

I think we should remove the exp point system. One level per kill sounds right. After that, one merit point per kill.

[rog]

I think we should remove the exp point system. One level per kill sounds right. After that, one merit point per kill.
Or just have everyone start at level 99.

[Aliekber]

So why have experience points?

And I don't say this to sound snarky. I am genuinely confused why Square-Enix allows us to leech and burn things as they do, apparently since even they've taken the stance that exping is a waste of time, so why not just start everyone off at 90, they can unlock the jobs they want to play as on their own, get their own gear, since apparently they want the game to be blitzed.

Well, you still have to skill up. The "you have to get it to 30" weeds out people from just leveling jobs on a whim (unless they had it as a subjob already), but yeah. Gimps will be gimps regardless of how they level, so abolishment of XP entirely would be fine by me.

Old-way XPing vs. Abyssea leeching isn't climbing a mountain vs. taking an escalator to the top, as someone said on the previous page, it's more like carving your own snowboard out of fiberglass vs. buying one at the store. It doesn't matter how you got the snowboard (personal satisfaction notwithstanding--you can level however you want), what matters is what you do with it after you get it.

[Dfoley]

I rocked face as DRK/DRG, MNK/DRG and SAM/DRG from Lv30 to Lv60, even against other people using the same jobs and were equally geared, but decided to sub /war or /nin. And I thought of it all without consulting any forum or anyone in game. I'm pretty sure I was one of the first people to popularize /DRG also, because 2 weeks after, I started to see an increase in wyvern earring sales.

Barely missed a swing, didn't even need madrigal or hunter's roll and pounded face like no other. Figured that all out by myself without consulting any website or anyone. And it was FUN to play.

I like the inflated self ego there. As if you were the first person to popularize something, then go on to mention you didnt need hunters roll... as if it even existed back when people were using /drg.

All points a side, tropical punches were a waste and id probably have called you a noob too considering mythril claws +1 out perform it and more then make up for the loss in acc at that level.

[Akujima]

Why do you care so much about what other people are doing? Last night I ate food. I showered. I took a poop. Does any of that matter to you?


It's funny to see how many people are defending the leech system, the same system that will eventually speed up the death of FFXI. Even going so far as to agree with aboloshing EXP entirely. Players being able to LvUp jobs extremely fast, will just give them more excuses to beg the Dev's to add more content, because they've maxed everything out already and have nothing left to do. A sad and negative fact that happens all too often, and I wonder how people can actually enjoy a game like this?

Eating and taking a poop can be compared to breathing and sleeping, which are basic required human functions that you need to live, so using those as examples mean nothing. But in actuality, when people vote and defend systems and beliefs that aren't required for living, then yes, it will directly or indirectly affect other people.

The major point here is that, nobody would be defending or getting upset about Abyssea Leeching, if the LvCap was 75 in the first place. Because of the fact that you were already handed the toy, SE would be stupid to take it away from you. That being said, them handing you that toy DID affect me, because I enjoy exping outside of Abyssea in regular EXP PT's. And when there is less and less people to pick from in the "/sea all inv" list, then it's harder for me to find members for that PT.

[rog]

Well, you still have to skill up.
Just did about 900 levels of skill ups the other day, in 3 hours~

Yay retaliation.

[Sesh]

Just out of curiosity for all of the ppl that are so against the level 30 cap do yall make sure to level to 70-75 before you even consider even stepping foot in aby on any job? I'm willing to bet you don't. And if you don't you're just being hypocritical, no matter what excuse you make up in your head to justify going since you're so blatantly against the 30 cap.

[Tiberius]

Old-time partying just isn't going to meet expectations in the face of a post-Abyssea era. S-E have doubled the experience point vales of all mobs in the common world, as well as removed restrictions on regimen books. But even granting that, many who have had a taste of that sweet Abyssea experience intake will be hesitant to return to what the OP is asking, unless they want a chance of backdrop.

Putting this genie back in its lamp would be nigh on impossible in the face of the predicted complaints that would come with such a move. And even if it were to happen, would it be the right thing to do? The players who bought these add-ons with the promise of some low-level content (think running around and doing fame quests) would have had a bait-and-switch pulled on them after the fact. That would be a lousy deal, and one that I couldn't support.

OP, you want them to put a level restriction on Abyssea in order to force people to go back to the old zones. This is the problem in a nutshell: you want to force people to do something they don't want to do. Perhaps if old content were upgraded to suit the palette of the average post-Abyssea player, maybe these zones would see more traffic. A drop in FoV restrictions, and the recently added GoV were good steps in this direction. But if it won't match (or even come relatively close) to what you get in Abyssea, why would anyone go back?

[Aliekber]

Just did about 900 levels of skill ups the other day, in 3 hours~

Yay retaliation.

If only I could level GKT that way.

/sigh

[Aliekber]

you want to force people to do something they don't want to do.

^ This. If the "level to 75 outside of Abyssea" crowd had any actual support among the playerbase at large, we'd still be seeing ToAU bird parties at the very least. But we don't.

Don't worry, though. People complained about leveling up without skill regarding manaburns, arrowburns, mnkburns, Colibri TPburns, and Campaign 75s. They never got what they wanted, and you won't either. Have a nice day.

[Meyi]

It's funny to see how many people are defending the leech system, the same system that will eventually speed up the death of FFXI.

The death of FFXI will be time. Previous to the announcement of 76+ we were suffering a stagnant, slow death. People had leveled all the jobs they had ever wanted up to 75 and were losing interest in end game events. They had all the gear they wanted, or almost all of the gear they wanted, and there was nothing enjoyable in the game anymore.

Abyssea is not the death of FFXI. It is a new, refreshing life.


Even going so far as to agree with aboloshing EXP entirely. Players being able to LvUp jobs extremely fast, will just give them more excuses to beg the Dev's to add more content, because they've maxed everything out already and have nothing left to do. A sad and negative fact that happens all too often, and I wonder how people can actually enjoy a game like this?

What's wrong with wanting content in a video game? After eight years, you honestly expect us to continue being satisfied with the same, non-repeatable content? Currently the only way to repeat all of the content is to start a new character over and most people don't find that idea very attractive.

As long as we continue to pay for the game, we, the playerbase, want to enjoy the game. If there is nothing left to enjoy, we will become bored and begin to drift.

Besides, I'm sure it's a huge compliment to the dev team whenever we ask them for more content. That means we enjoy their work well enough to continue asking them for more.


The major point here is that, nobody would be defending or getting upset about Abyssea Leeching, if the LvCap was 75 in the first place. Because of the fact that you were already handed the toy, SE would be stupid to take it away from you. That being said, them handing you that toy DID affect me, because I enjoy exping outside of Abyssea in regular EXP PT's. And when there is less and less people to pick from in the "/sea all inv" list, then it's harder for me to find members for that PT.

Not true. As GreatGuardian has said, leeching is not a level, it's a failure to provide anything beneficial to the party. Jobs at 90 who fail to properly gear themselves are bigger leechers than the level 30s opening the chests.

And as someone who once had Bard 75, I can assure you that one, I would never want to be stuck playing it in Abyssea, and two, would not want to waste my cruor opening chests because nobody else wants to, and the alliance didn't want to get a level 30 to do it. If any party ever expects me to open chests as a level 90 who's actually doing their job, I just leave. I can kill fast enough to enjoy solo play and I think it'd be rude to expect anyone who's properly doing their job to give up their cruor for 17 other people. It's a trade off with level 30s though. They give us their cruor, we give them their levels.

[Luvbunny]

Well said Meyi :) Chest openers are win win situation. The OP are delusional. If you are leeching you know the trade-off, you loose cruors, exp gain starts very slow (you need to stay at least 60-120 mnts to start seeing xp benefits), and dominion xp also starts very low. On top of that, you will have to skill ups which also take a good amount of time outside aby. The timesink is still there, but slightly different. You can still do a lot of repeatable quests as lvl 30. Abyssea is great as it is, no need to implement level cap, and let people leech as key openers. As developers I rather bring new people to the game, or returning players who will buy the new abyssea add ons, that is money coming in. As for the hardcore bitter players? Let them die and leave the game, they do nothing but spread their bitter poison and yearn for the "old ways" where everything was horrible and the game was extremely NOT users friendly. I am glad the old ways is dead, gone, buried, and forever be forgotten.

[Aliekber]

As for the hardcore bitter players? Let them die and leave the game, they do nothing but spread their bitter poison and yearn for the "old ways" where everything was horrible and the game was extremely NOT users friendly. I am glad the old ways is dead, gone, buried, and forever be forgotten.

I don't think anybody who clamors for XP to be made slower could be considered a hardcore player (a hardcore leveler, maybe). The real elitists tend to like the ability to leech.

[rog]

If only I could level GKT that way.

/sighload up on some counter gear/atma? Should still be faster than fighting one mob at a time :(

[Aliekber]

load up on some counter gear/atma? Should still be faster than fighting one mob at a time :(

Honestly, I haven't made it a huge priority since I only use GKT for Koki/Jinpu (since I don't have SAM past SJ), but yeah, I should get around to doing that. For some reason I had it in my head that because you don't get TP from counters, you can't skill up on them (as opposed to retaliations).

I guess it's time to put that Novennial ring to use (leveling /MNK)!

[rog]

For some reason I had it in my head that because you don't get TP from counters, you can't skill up on them (as opposed to retaliations).
disclaimer: the only job i have ever played that could counter is nin.

[Aliekber]

disclaimer: the only job i have ever played that could counter is nin.

Nah, I checked wiki, you're legit.

[Akujima]

Abyssea is not the death of FFXI. It is a new, refreshing life.

Kind of like a new born baby Alien from the movie "Alien".



What's wrong with wanting content in a video game?

When that content completely kills off everything else, then yea there's something wrong with that content.



Not true. As GreatGuardian has said, leeching is not a level, it's a failure to provide anything beneficial to the party. Jobs at 90 who fail to properly gear themselves are bigger leechers than the level 30s opening the chests.

This is absolute BS to the max.

The only reason NEW players wear Perle, Aurore and Teal equip, is because all the other good gear that comes from OTHER CONTENT is obsolete and nobody runs that stuff anymore. Oh wow, what made that other content obsolete in the first place? Lol... People like GG who support Lv30 Abyssea leeching, that's what.

And GG has the nerve to complain about their gear without actually giving it any thought as to why they're forced to wear it. All I can say to that is LOL.

[Sesh]

Akujima how long have you played the game if you dont mind?

[Kazen]

If you think most of the gear from old content is still relevant... I don't know what to tell you. Those people using full perle etc are mostly just lazy. I tend to farm AF3 and other required macro gear for a job before I even level it.

GG was correct in most players complaining about leeches are leeches themselves. I did a pick up merit pt after the servers went back up and the amount of terribly geared players is astonishing. I was on SAM at the time just screwing around and there was actually another SAM in the group. He asked why I blink so much and I asked if he used any gear swaps at all and he said no. He replied saying his damage was just as good without using gear swaps as the people who did use gear swaps, he mentioned that gear swaps weren't worth the hassle of using. This guy had 0% haste and no gear swaps and he was just one of many like that in the pick up group.

It's fairly sad when one person (myself in this case) was doing majority of the damage in an alliance. It's even sadder that I was a samurai, which is a job that is fairly lackluster in abyssea to begin with doing more damage than majority of the other DDs combined. I did have a slight advantage over the normal player by having a lvl 90 emp weapon but that still doesn't excuse the pitiful damage numbers I was seeing in the log.

Raging rushes for 1k or less, 600 blade jins, the damage equivalents of gimp throwing ninjas, etc. I see you here trying to defend the fact that these people are not leeches? Ha. A key leech is more useful than any of these people. I was killing 3 mobs solo in the time it took them to kill one.

[Akujima]

.......I did have a slight advantage over the normal player by having a lvl 90 emp weapon but that still doesn't excuse the pitiful damage numbers I was seeing in the log.

LOL, omg hahaha...

So you're complaining about New Players that haven't been able to farm their butts off to get 90 Emp Weapons and AF3+2 yet. And instead of giving them advice, your answer is just to call them Noobs and use that as an excuse to why you should Leech to Lv30. Very nice.

[rog]

Nah, I checked wiki, you're legit.I just added that to :safeface:

[Aliekber]

I just added that to :safeface:

Naturally.

Also, your LJ icon link was borked last week (appears to be fine now). You need to get unbanned on Alla (at least in /k/ ; ;) again, at least until they get a PM function on these boards, so I can complain at you if it happens again.

[rog]

Naturally.

Also, your LJ icon link was borked last week (appears to be fine now). You need to get unbanned on Alla (at least in /k/ ; ;) again, at least until they get a PM function on these boards, so I can complain at you if it happens again.
I am always on skype and aim, at GCKDBC826GTA7TTR. Alternatively if you send me a pm on alla with your email address, i will email you, so you can contact me through that. or you can always just pm me on alla. I can still recieve pms, i just cannot reply, so if you want a reply, you need to leave me a way to do so. You can also pm me through ffxiah. Really it is not hard to get ahold of me.

[Aliekber]

I am always on skype and aim, at GCKDBC826GTA7TTR. Alternatively if you send me a pm on alla with your email address, i will email you, so you can contact me through that. or you can always just pm me on alla. I can still recieve pms, i just cannot reply, so if you want a reply, you need to leave me a way to do so. You can also pm me through ffxiah. Really it is not hard to get ahold of me.

Gotcha. Thanks.

[Romanova]

Here's an amazing thought. You don't like leechers? Make your own pts and don't allow them. Simple as that.

I actually came back to the game about 3 months ago, previously when I played abyssea wasn't out yet, and the cap was still 75.

Anyone who complains about this is being ridiculous. NO ONE IS FORCING YOU TO HAVE LEECHERS. Also, abbysea pts go so insanely fast, they are not screwing up your xp in a way that you should complain. The fact you can even get more than one level a day is huge past 75 compared to the old ways.

And lol at old content is "dead". The only "dead" content are certain xp areas, and SE has already started reviving those areas with things like GoV, sky gear augments, etc. There are still tons of people who seek pts, and because of level sync there is nothing stopping you from making a party in the old areas.

Heck I've been doing that a lot lately, becuase I had no mage subjobs and decided I finally wanted to take rdm up. Not bothering to leech some jobs that only need to get to 45, and I rarely have to seek long before getting a regular pt.


Basically, this idea just takes away, and does nothing. No one is forcing you to leech, no one is forcing you to have them in your pt, no one is even forcing you to xp in abyssea at all.

[Sayelle]

Not this shit again. The subject has already be discussed to death in previous threads and thoroughly discredited. For Akujima and any of the other supporters of this tired idea please go read those threads and if you can come up with an argument that hasn't already been torn to shreds then we will gladly tear your new argument to shreds for you.

[Panthera]

You make the assumption that any half-decent level 90 DD+Mage combo can't full clear entire camps on their own. You don't need more than 5 people tops to make the absolute maximum EXP/hr available at any given camp, 3 of which are just going to be pulling nonstop.

If adding additional level 75+ adds absolutely nothing to the killspeed, adding additional level 30's subtracts absolutely nothing from the killspeed.

And you make the assumption that these heroes who can wipe out the entire zone single-handedly are dime a dozen, that every ally has two of them, and moreover, that such heroes exist. In my experience, most allies are just that, allies, a team effort of a dozen or more people working together to get the best EXP they can get. Some people have barely hit 75 and don't have much gear to speak of at all. Others were 75 before the level cap adjustments, and have some current gear here and there. Two guys wiping out the entire zone instantly when mobs pop? You exaggerate, sir.


Leeches are parasites, whether they are level 30 or level 90. That 30brd keyspammer? Leech. That level 90 NIN in full aurore gear who doesn't gear swap and puts out 500 damage Jins? Leech. If anything, the Keyspammer is more productive than the gimp-ass level 90 with absolute shit gear and atma. If an entire alliance is made up of Leeches, either level 30 or 90, of course the alliance is going to fail. If the alliance has even a single non-leech player, the amount of leeches there won't matter at all.

Obviously, those with the best gear and focus on task contribute the most damage, yet everyone benefits equally in experience points. But that does not mean that those who contribute less contribute nothing, which seems to be what you contend. An unequal symbiosis? I'll give you that, but calling a level 90 in full Aurora a leech is hyperbolic, just as hyperbolic as these mythical champions that everyone else just leeches off of. What bothers me are people who go AFK indefinately and nothing is done about it. That's leeching.



Old-way XPing vs. Abyssea leeching isn't climbing a mountain vs. taking an escalator to the top, as someone said on the previous page, it's more like carving your own snowboard out of fiberglass vs. buying one at the store. It doesn't matter how you got the snowboard (personal satisfaction notwithstanding--you can level however you want), what matters is what you do with it after you get it.

Why bother leeching? Just buy accounts with real money, play with the jobs until you get bored, and then take up buying pre-built model airplanes as a hobby. After all, the point of model airplanes is having model airplanes, right?

[Sparthos]

Here's an amazing thought. You don't like leechers? Make your own pts and don't allow them. Simple as that.

I actually came back to the game about 3 months ago, previously when I played abyssea wasn't out yet, and the cap was still 75.

Anyone who complains about this is being ridiculous. NO ONE IS FORCING YOU TO HAVE LEECHERS. Also, abbysea pts go so insanely fast, they are not screwing up your xp in a way that you should complain. The fact you can even get more than one level a day is huge past 75 compared to the old ways.

And lol at old content is "dead". The only "dead" content are certain xp areas, and SE has already started reviving those areas with things like GoV, sky gear augments, etc. There are still tons of people who seek pts, and because of level sync there is nothing stopping you from making a party in the old areas.

Heck I've been doing that a lot lately, becuase I had no mage subjobs and decided I finally wanted to take rdm up. Not bothering to leech some jobs that only need to get to 45, and I rarely have to seek long before getting a regular pt.


Basically, this idea just takes away, and does nothing. No one is forcing you to leech, no one is forcing you to have them in your pt, no one is even forcing you to xp in abyssea at all.

While you have points, the idea that you can simply ignore the fact that people are leeching and make your own EXP parties is a bit misleading.

A simple /sea all 30-75 during NA prime right now is pulling up 12 people across 45 levels LFP. Yeah, safe to say that PT wont be happening and you'll be soloing if you don't get the opportunity to leech.

You can't really close your eyes and pretend leeching hasn't basically killed off EXP the "old" way, regardless of how you feel about it. You either leech or you solo to 75 through FoV now. For anyone without the resources to leech to cap, you're stuck doing FoV/GoV - an epic grind alone.

[Panthera]

While you have points, the idea that you can simply ignore the fact that people are leeching and make your own EXP parties is a bit misleading.

A simple /sea all 30-75 during NA prime right now is pulling up 12 people across 45 levels LFP. Yeah, safe to say that PT wont be happening and you'll be soloing if you don't get the opportunity to leech.

You can't really close your eyes and pretend leeching hasn't basically killed off EXP the "old" way, regardless of how you feel about it. You either leech or you solo to 75 through FoV now. For anyone without the resources to leech to cap, you're stuck doing FoV/GoV - an epic grind alone.

No friends to static with, eh?

[Sparthos]

Why should you need friends to do something as simple as EXP?

The game already had pretty much very few new players and whatever new players that happen to stumble upon this game are in for a whirl when they can't leech and have to solo the game to 75.

I know all the benefits of good leeching but ultimately it'll be the death of the game and no amount of FoV grindage will change that. Most of us are just happy to be able to cap a job for expediency sake but the health of the game is bound to suffer - just observe EXP alliances primarily made up of 4-6 AFKers hugging the Dominion Ops NPC.

[Romanova]

Why bother leeching? Just buy accounts with real money, play with the jobs until you get bored, and then take up buying pre-built model airplanes as a hobby. After all, the point of model airplanes is having model airplanes, right?

leeching is free and not against the TOS, terrible example is terrible.



A simple /sea all 30-75 during NA prime right now is pulling up 12 people across 45 levels LFP. Yeah, safe to say that PT wont be happening and you'll be soloing if you don't get the opportunity to leech.

Bad luck is bad luck or new pts were just formed. As I said from a multitude of xp seeking over these past three months I have gotten parties faster than before. It only takes 6 people to form a party and level sync makes levels not an issue but the old issue of: tanks.

Really the complaint to lack of regular parties is because SE still has only given us 2 tank classes. If you got rid of abysea there maybe 309458435 people seeking in comparison, but the tank to dd ratio is still going to be way off, which is not the fault of abysea at all.


Again, I've had zero issue getting regular pts in a normal amount of time, and have gotten them faster than I did back in the old days.

[rog]

I know all the benefits of good leeching but ultimately it'll be the death of the game and no amount of FoV grindage will change that. Most of us are just happy to be able to cap a job for expediency sake but the health of the game is bound to suffer - just observe EXP alliances primarily made up of 4-6 AFKers hugging the Dominion Ops NPC.
I like my alliances with 17 leeches.

[Akujima]

Really the complaint to lack of regular parties is because SE still has only given us 2 tank classes. If you got rid of abysea there maybe 309458435 people seeking in comparison, but the tank to dd ratio is still going to be way off, which is not the fault of abysea at all.


Correct. And that was the fault of SE's, with decision to let the player base decide how jobs are played. Instead of defining 3~4 jobs as one's that could actually tank effectively, they decided to sweep all their old problems under the rug with Abyssea.

Utsusemi was somewhat to blame as well.

[Romanova]

Correct. And that was the fault of SE's, with decision to let the player base decide how jobs are played. Instead of defining 3~4 jobs as one's that could actually tank effectively, they decided to sweep all their old problems under the rug with Abyssea.

Utsusemi was somewhat to blame as well.

you are focusing your complaint in the wrong area. All that could have been solved either creating a new tank class or tweaking an old class so it can be an excellent tank. leechers/abysea is not the problem.

[Akujima]

you are focusing your complaint in the wrong area. All that could have been solved either creating a new tank class or tweaking an old class so it can be an excellent tank. leechers/abysea is not the problem.


It is because it adds to the tank problem. Tanks are not needed inside Abyssea, and PLD being left in the dust just proves that. Nobody is going to deny that PLD is one of the most extinct classes inside Abyss.

[Romanova]

It is because it adds to the tank problem. Tanks are not needed inside Abyssea, and PLD being left in the dust just proves that. Nobody is going to deny that PLD is one of the most extinct classes inside Abyss.

then they need to fix pld, not get rid of leechers....

you can't even focus anymore, you're just taking shots. smn bad? because abyssea! seals low drop? because abyssea! so on and so on.

You are just blaming everything on it, without taking an objective look as to where the real issues lie.

[Akujima]

then they need to fix pld, not get rid of leechers...

I agreed with you on the first point, but you've missed my point. They need to do more than just 1 thing. They need to do several.

Fix PLD
Get rid of leechers
Add other Tank classes
Make "Tanking" Actually viable again.

[Romanova]

I agreed with you on the first point, but you've missed my point. They need to do more than just 1 thing. They need to do several.

Fix PLD
Get rid of leechers
Add other Tank classes
Make "Tanking" Actually viable again.

they don't need to get rid of leechers though, and the way you post you act like the other problems are another reason to get rid of them.

Again, don't party with leechers if you don't like leechers.

[Akujima]

Again, don't party with leechers if you don't like leechers.


I dont care if people wanna sit AFK, watch a movie while scarfing down some Hagen Daz ice cream and leech EXP in Abyss. I really don't care why anyone wants to leech or how they think it's a fun thing to do.

You are missing my point entirely.

Leeching affects me, because it allows the player base to skip over 80% of the content in the game. I want to experience that content and I want to be able to group up with people to do just that.

[Romanova]

I want to experience that content and I want to be able to group up with people to do just that.


And abyssea isn't stopping you from doing just that. As I said I've done a lot of parties in old areas.

[Akujima]

And abyssea isn't stopping you from doing just that. As I said I've done a lot of parties in old areas.


Then tell me how raising the cap to 70~75 would stop people from doing Abyssea?

[Romanova]

Then tell me how raising the cap to 70~75 would stop people from doing Abyssea?

When did I say it would? Just because 70+ people would keep doing is not a reason to stop lower levels from doing it as well.

[Akujima]

When did I say it would? Just because 70+ people would keep doing is not a reason to stop lower levels from doing it as well.


Yes it is. You are skimming over a very important point: allowing people to exploit and bypass 80% of the games content is a ridiculous idea.

[Romanova]

Yes it is. You are skimming over a very important point: allowing people to exploit and bypass 80% of the games content is a ridiculous idea.

No it's not. You're missing the point:



I want to experience that content and I want to be able to group up with people to do just that.

you can still do the content. you can still find people willing to do it. But just because you want old content does not mean SE should limit other players who want to skip it.

[Akujima]

But just because you want old content does not mean SE should limit other players who want to skip it.


Name another successful MMO that does that. Name another MMO that allows players to LvUp quickly through the first few levels, and then allow them to skyrocket their way to endgame, completely surpassing 80% of the entire map, 90% of the missions, 75% of the quests and 95% storyline.

[Romanova]

Name another successful MMO that does that. Name another MMO that allows players to LvUp quickly through the first few levels, and then allow them to skyrocket their way to endgame, completely surpassing 80% of the entire map, 90% of the missions, 75% of the quests and 95% storyline.

WoW?


You can get from 15 to 80 and never leave Stormwind/Orgrimmar via the dungeon tool or BGs. a few of my alts had next to no maps and never did a single quest (past 15 that is, when dungeons get unlocked) until they reached 80.

[blowfin]

Name another successful MMO that does that. Name another MMO that allows players to LvUp quickly through the first few levels, and then allow them to skyrocket their way to endgame, completely surpassing 80% of the entire map, 90% of the missions, 75% of the quests and 95% storyline.

Most of us already went through that in this game. While the side effects of Abyss are quite apparent, it's totally intentional by SE, and it's a breath of fresh air for the people who've been grinding for ~8 years.

Also, why does every MMO have to fit the same mold? Fresh ideas in games are few and far between these days and should be encouraged IMO.

[Sesh]

Akujima how long have you played the game if you dont mind?

^ still curious of that, if you started pre-CoP then you should have learned a long time ago to get over it because XP got nothing but easier and easier and easier for people. If you started during ToAU you should not be complaining at all nor should anyone else who started around that time because exp became easily 50x quicker to get than previous years. It's a natural progression of quicker and easier exp as the game goes on. If you are a pre CoP player then you should have learned to deal with it by now, if you're a ToAUish player then you're just being a baby cause xp was technically spoon-fed to you at that point as compared to previous years.

B4 Zilart I dunno how they exp'd my guess is probably very slowly >>>>> After Zilart you had basic camps Gar/CN/Moon/Sky also exp was a fair amount higher per lvl when I got my first 75, >>>>> exp nerf >>>>> CoP Bibiki/Uleg/and a fair amount of new zones so that you were not fighting for days with other parties >>>>> Toau >>>>> Tons of great camps great for soloing and great for exping, generally 3x or more the exp that you had seen before in previous zone camps. Also wayyy more level 75 camps to instead of pretty much just sky. >>>>> Wotg, More viable camps with the addition of campaign for extra exp on the side to make your levels quicker and "bypass" other content in the game if you so chose to go a campaign leveling route. >>>>> Now Abyssea... ppl have suffered the exp grind long enough let them enjoy the rest of the game its silly to try to hate on aby just cause people can get lvl'd in a shorter amount of time.

[Akujima]

still curious of that,

I've played since NA release but took a 3 year break just before ToAU came out. So by the time I got back, WoTG was already setup and was midway through. I've been playing ever since then and have been taking short breaks on and off for a couple of months here and there, due to IRL.

[Sesh]

Am I wrong though then? Playing since years back you should have seen the natural progression of easier exp it should be something that doesn't bother you anymore by this point. Take pride in the fact that you level jobs when exp was hard and you suffered through it. The noobs leveling to 90 in a day or whatnot can't take that away from you so just brush it off and enjoy what other aspects of the game you still like doing.

[Olor]

where are these noobs getting 90 in a day?

I think people are over-estimating how easy it is for someone starting from scratch to get in on Abyssea exp. My experience has been of sad horrible slow soloing - especially now that I am over 65. I would rather SE made it more feasible for people like me to actually be able to participate in Abyssea vs. being stuck in a horror show of grotesquely boring grinding, alone.

[Olor]

I mean the one thing the old days had over the new days is that at least in the old days one could pick up a job that was needed in parties and get your first job to cap.

Now... ugh. I hope you like soloing if you don't have cruor or an army of friends who want to powerlevel you

[Akujima]

I would rather SE made it more feasible for people like me to actually be able to participate in Abyssea vs. being stuck in a horror show of grotesquely boring grinding, alone.


The only reason you're out there grinding alone, is because all the veterans are leeching inside Abyssea, instead of outside PT'ing with you.

[Sesh]

where are these noobs getting 90 in a day?

I think people are over-estimating how easy it is for someone starting from scratch to get in on Abyssea exp. My experience has been of sad horrible slow soloing - especially now that I am over 65. I would rather SE made it more feasible for people like me to actually be able to participate in Abyssea vs. being stuck in a horror show of grotesquely boring grinding, alone.

I dunno how it is on other servers but Phoenix has leech pay2play FC's average around 150k an hour or so (titan b4 they merged with us said they let all leeches in for free etc which I don't believe but that besides the point) My group charges 500k for 6 hours (the first hour is free cause that involves getting lights etc) and in those 6 hours we always get all the payee's from 30 to no less than 85+ most of the time we go a lil extra and most walk away with 90 in about 6 hours time. Is it fair to the old players? No. But times change and we have to embrace the change if we continue to play. If we don't embrace it then you'll just end up miserable and bitter, and at that point is there really any reason to play anymore? I dunno, there wouldn't be a reason for me at least.

Note: Someone brand new who has to do genkai still has some work to do for sure, but I think it's safe to state that many of these leeches are still "noobs" in a general sense in the fact that even after all genkai are done they don't know what they're doing most likely.

[Olor]

Yeah, well, I don't think the solution is to nerf abyssea. I would much rather see SE create comparable exp elsewhere. I am pretty confident that most people would rather do something they participate in rather than leech. I don't blame anyone for wanting out of the terrible grind and frankly I don't want to force people to go through what I am going through right now, with or without a party.

GoV is a step in the right direction - (where mob placement isn't stupid anyway) - however - it is more useful for low level people than high level people because of the mob HP issue. It just takes too long to take down 60+ mobs for it not to feel like an agonizing chore regardless of page exp.

Honestly - it is the kill time that annoys the crap outta me more than anything.

Anyway, I would much rather SE make events like besieged and campaign as rewarding as Abyssea so that people 50-75 don't have to choose between either agonizingly slow grinding or afk/keying in abyssea.

I tried to solo campaign but it was not as fun as I remember it being with lots of people and I died and with no raise, I ended up wasting an hour (running back and forth, renewing my medal etc) and getting no exp.

Christ I remember when WotG first came out, doing campaign as a 40 whm, and when I died people practically fought over being able to raise me.

Anyway, sad to see the event abandoned. I am all for giving people choice so I don't think that raising the level for people to enter Abyssea is the solution. People just need to be given a real choice. Right now you'd have to be a complete idiot to choose the slow horrible grind over Abyseaa if you have the option.

[Panthera]

leeching is free and not against the TOS, terrible example is terrible.
I didn't say that leeching was against TOS. I didn't say leeching wasn't free. And it's not an example, it's a metaphor. Well trolled, sir.

What I meant by the metaphor is that while having a level 90 job and doing end game events is supposed to be fun (i.e. having the model airplane), leveling is supposed to be fun in and of itself(building the plane).

Leeching used to mean coming as a less powerful job to an otherwise strong party, but at least you did what you could for what it's worth. We used the term "leeching" inaccurately, for lack of a better word. Leeching now standing around and contributing nothing while the rest of the ally does the work. Now we can use the term leeching to mean what it means.

Honestly, what's the point? Standing around while everyone does the work so you can get to max level, so you can stand around and wait to proc something if you can, or wait for the kill order...what has this game come to?

[Akujima]

Obviously, those with the best gear and focus on task contribute the most damage, yet everyone benefits equally in experience points. But that does not mean that those who contribute less contribute nothing, which seems to be what you contend. An unequal symbiosis? I'll give you that, but calling a level 90 in full Aurora a leech is hyperbolic, just as hyperbolic as these mythical champions that everyone else just leeches off of. What bothers me are people who go AFK indefinately and nothing is done about it. That's leeching.

Wow, ahahaha, I couldn't stop laughing at that part... This guy seriously believes he's some kind of God amongst men.

Way to post, Panthera.

[Leonlionheart]

@OP: Yes, that's how it should be.

Why it's not that way: Leveling 1~75 SUCKED. It was horrible. If you think its any different than the mind numbing disgusting idea that is general ToM, then you are silly and quite frankly so biased to the point where fact just goes straight through you. ToM = killing the same mob until you finish a trial. Leveling up = killing the same mob until you finish a number of levels. How is it anything other than that? You can say that you needed a certain setup and skill set to kill mobs to level up, but really it boiled down to NIN BRD RDM THF DD DD (you could even leave out enmity control if your NIN had half a brain to buy both SH and Haubergeon).

If you liked old-style leveling but dislike ToM, then take off the nostalgia goggles. You liked playing a game because you were playing it.

Go play FFXI, if you're not having fun go play something else. Stop trolling these forums with the same rehashed point. Seriously all of your posts/threads say the same thing: "QQ I am somewhat displeased that this game has changed for the first time in 8 years! I want to go do the same thing over and over again like I used to!"

[Akujima]

Stop trolling these forums with the same rehashed point. Seriously all of your posts/threads say the same thing: "QQ I am somewhat displeased that this game has changed for the first time in 8 years! I want to go do the same thing over and over again like I used to!"


Actually I've made a total of 4 threads so far, 4/4 of them being hot topics and all having around 10 or so thumbs up.

If you think I'm QQ'ing, then you obviously don't know how to take a joke. Some of my posts are meant to be satirical, while others just simply have some humor thrown in. Most of my posts bring up very good valid points that I think aren't being given enough attention, other posts are to support people whom also make very strong points about the related topic. If this weren't true, then those threads would get very little replies or none at all.

What usually happens is people pick them apart and point out very very minor inconsistencies, all in an attempt to stray away from the topic at hand.

No, I don't like ToM. And using the excuse of doing something over and over again can back-fire on you pretty easily. At least when you hit 75 back before they announced the LvCap increase, there was a variety of endgame content to do. Now at Lv90, you're stuck with doing Abyssea, over and over again.

[Nebo]

I really want to know what all this content is that people are "missing out on" as a result of being able to level up faster.

Garrison? Eco-Warrior?

Tell me it isn't because you actually MISS killing 58 bajillion of 87 different types of crab, 43 different types of beetle and several different variations of pink tucan?

Top heavy game is top heavy. The very best parts of FFXI, the very best stories, the fiercest monsters, the craziest battles, the events that are the most fun, all require you to be strong enough (high level) to participate.

Making this easier to accomplish was the BEST thing SE ever did for new players coming in.

FFXI has a playerbase that is nearly a decade old with very few actual new players exploring Vana'diel. How do you keep old players happy? Is it by dragging out the arbitrary low level grinds? Or is by adding more challenging end game content for these leveled up adventurers to a tackle?

How do you accomodate new players that want to be a part of a decade old playerbase? Do you force them to grind out over the same significant amount of time that we had to? Or do you allow them to level up quickly and join the rest of the playerbase that is tackling this exciting endgame content?

The age of the game is the neccesity for abyssea the way it is. Placing a level cap there would hurt EVERYONE.

[Leonlionheart]

Actually I've made a total of 4 threads so far, 4/4 of them being hot topics and all having around 10 or so thumbs up.

If you think I'm QQ'ing, then you obviously don't know how to take a joke. Some of my posts are meant to be satirical, while others just simply have some humor thrown in. Most of my posts bring up very good valid points that I think aren't being given enough attention, other posts are to support people whom also make very strong points about the related topic. If this weren't true, then those threads would get very little replies or none at all.

What usually happens is people pick them apart and point out very very minor inconsistencies, all in an attempt to stray away from the topic at hand.

No, I don't like ToM. And using the excuse of doing something over and over again can back-fire on you pretty easily. At least when you hit 75 back before they announced the LvCap increase, there was a variety of endgame content to do. Now at Lv90, you're stuck with doing Abyssea, over and over again.

As if 10 anonymous likes means anything when the only way to go is up. I'm sure you would be quite displeased if there was a dislike button.

That variety of endgame is still there. Limbus still has some things to offer most players (as now almost everyone has several jobs leveled), Dynamis also has niche pieces for the true perfectionist, Salvage, ZNM, HNM, all have their place its just not as big as it used to be.

And how different is Abyssea from HNM or ZNM anyway? You fight a few small mobs to fight a big mob to get a reward. The only thing that is really different is you have more factors to look at (Lights/time/staggers). You can't tell me there were more challenging fights at 75 than there are now (After MPK was taken out who really wiped back at 75 on anything other than AV and Pandy warden? Maybe death house in dyna-windy when you had to deal with idiots, and idiots will still cause wipes in aby, btw.) Either way the only real difference is that there is less time involved. You don't have to wait for everything anymore or grind out ridiculous amounts of Zeni.

Old content is even more played now with augmentable gear. (Adaberk has risen to the top again with STP and DA on it, out-mathing AF3+2 for WAR apparently)

Also, the game was at 75 for YEARS. You can't argue that it still doesn't have the potential of tons of content at true end game (99) as it did at 75. In fact there are so many things to do in Abyssea just from 80-90 and even now outside of Abyssea with viable gear that is probably on-par with AF3+2, that how can you be so pessimistic about the way the game is going now?

Take off the nostalgia goggles.

[Leonlionheart]

Although I will say that being able to Brew anything you want is a piss-poor idea.

[Akujima]

As if 10 anonymous likes means anything when the only way to go is up. I'm sure you would be quite displeased if there was a dislike button.[/U]

A "Dislike" button would only promote more bias and would create so much tension on these forums, people would be afraid to make a thread.

I might see some things from a nostalgic point of view, but you're making it out as if nostalgia is always 100% incorrect. Alot of people seem to agree with how the game ran before Abyss anyways, so I'll continue to make threads like these. At least its better than strolling into threads you didn't even create, tackling the OP to gain "ego points".

There are some people on here with a 1000+ posts, that haven't even started a thread of their own. What do you think that tells you?

Quality > Quantity, my good friend.

[Leonlionheart]

A "Dislike" button would only promote more bias and would create so much tension on these forums, people would be afraid to make a thread.

I might see some things from a nostalgic point of view, but you're making it out as if nostalgia is always 100% incorrect. Alot of people seem to agree with how the game ran before Abyss anyways, so I'll continue to make threads like these. At least its better than strolling into threads you didn't even create, tackling the OP to gain "ego points".

There are some people on here with a 1000+ posts, that haven't even started a thread of their own. What do you think that tells you?

Quality > Quantity, my good friend.

I like how the only thing you got out of my post was what was particularly directed towards you. And actually, you're posts are almost all completely similar and go back to the initial point I made note of earlier. "WE WANT OLD GRINDS BACK."

I wish people were afraid to make threads, 80% of the threads can be boiled down to the same thing as all of these "QQ ABYSSEA" threads. If this forum had come out when the game had, we'd have archives upon libraries of "QQ DYNAMIS RELICS TAKE TOO LONG" "QQ LEVELING TAKES TOO LONG" "QQ FARMING ZENI TAKES TOO LONG" "QQ HNM REPOPS ARE STUPID" "QQ GARRISON IS TOO HARD FOR NO REWARD" "QQ SIGNET IS USELESS COMPARED TO SANCTION" "QQ LOLIBRI ARE TOO EASY" "QQ DIORITE DOESNT DROP" "QQ TOO HARD TO GET TO KIRIN" "QQ ULTIMA POPS ARE TOO HARD TO MAKE" Point is there's always someone complaining about something. The ones complaining are just louder than those who are actually out there playing the game and living their lives.

P.S. Look at your tags, none of which were added by me.

[Saefinn]

The problem:

One group of people want to leech from 30 to 70
One group of people want to exp party from 30 to 70
There are fewer people levelling from 30 to 70 outside of Abyssea because group 1 exist. But then hasn't group 1 always existed? The game has fewer players these days, so it prevails as a problem. Aby makes it easier for group 1, granted, but it keeps group 1 playing.

My solution:

Make parties between level 30 and 70 more appealing. Why punish people when you can just reward them instead? I think there are number of ways of doing that:

New exciting content - perhaps a version of Campaign or Besieged for lower levels. Or something new altogether.
Skill Ups - if a level sync party to say, level 45, were to give a level 90 skill ups, then I'm sure more level 90s would prefer to party for their skills up (and learn to play their job if they haven't done already) as sitting in The Boyahda Tree (for example) can be quite boring. The new Grounds of Valor offer people skill ups as reward, I don't know if a person can be level synced and still get skill ups, if so then maybe the solution is there and more people need to discover it, or if not, then that's a system where it could be worked into.
A combination of the two - it'd give more of an incentive for level 70+s to participate in new lower level content.

[Khiinroye]

Whenever I see someone complaining about how it's impossible to level the old way, I think of pre-level sync / pre-FoV / pre-ToAU days when you could /sea all 50-55 inv, get 3 people, but they're all melees, and you could only solo, with no signet buffs or kupowers. Soloing a low EP then was about the same as soloing an EM now. You would get less than half the current xp per kill, since xp on mobs has been boosted twice. Back then, a standard pickup party pre-75 could get 3k/hr and be considered GOOD. If you never went through all that, stop complaining about how Abyssea made leveling easy.

ToAU was a huge boost to the speed of levelling due to large numbers of extremely weak mobs. It also introduced sigil bonuses, which had never been seen before; everyone got +15% xp on all kills, and could have regen, refresh, or extended food duration instead of being limited to gathering CP and getting crystals.

After level sync, smn burn from 10-75 appeared. It is still present, and all the "leech" does is stand in one place while the smns use astral flow. No skillups, no effort, no "learning your job," and they don't even contribute by opening chests (which costs quite a lot of cruor).

[Romanova]

What I meant by the metaphor is that while having a level 90 job and doing end game events is supposed to be fun (i.e. having the model airplane), leveling is supposed to be fun in and of itself(building the plane).

Again, no one is stopping you from leveling the old way. And just because you think it's fun shouldn't restrict others from doing other things when they don't think it's fun.


where are these noobs getting 90 in a day?

I think people are over-estimating how easy it is for someone starting from scratch to get in on Abyssea exp. My experience has been of sad horrible slow soloing - especially now that I am over 65. I would rather SE made it more feasible for people like me to actually be able to participate in Abyssea vs. being stuck in a horror show of grotesquely boring grinding, alone.

You can still make yourself a party. No one is stopping you and there are always enough people seeking.



I feel like a broken record. I am a cheapskate when it comes to gil. I've only leeched one job so far, the rest I've been xping in the normal way. I like leeching, I like my gil even more. There is only once in awhile where I can't get a pt but that's usually because 5+ other people of the same job are seeking at the same time. That is no different than the way it used to be either. If you think otherwise you're looking through your nostalgia glasses backwards. As long as there's a tank and a healer up you're pretty much guaranteed to be able to make a party and find somewhere level sync appropriate.

there is nothing stopping you from xping the old way, so leave other people who don't want to alone.

[Olor]

There are not, "always enough people seeking" - give me a break.

That said, I agree with you on the point people should not be forced to exp the old way - because frankly, it sucks.

Which is why there are NOT "always enough people seeking"

[Romanova]

There are not, "always enough people seeking" - give me a break.

That said, I agree with you on the point people should not be forced to exp the old way - because frankly, it sucks.

Which is why there are NOT "always enough people seeking"


It's not 100% That's true. but again I've had better luck getting parties when I came back to the game than I did before abyssea.

I remember it taking 3-4 days just to get a party on a DD job. Now it's only once in awhile I get unlucky for 1 day.

As the old ways, and as I said earlier, the issue is tanks, but again that is not because all the tanks are in abyssea leeching, and has been an issue for a long time.


I feel that people that whine never leveled DD jobs before level sync, or at least have forgotten what that was like in comparison to now.

[Olor]

I started playing before level sync... but I never got above 60 till now... on this char.

I think several things make it worse than it used to be:

1) You see other people go from 65-90 in three hours - which makes spending three hours to get a single level seem even more painful

2) Ironically making exp so easy to get and plentiful before level 60 makes it ALL THE MORE STARK and horrible when you get up to 65+ and exp is so frigging slow

3) The real lack of traditional parties because anyone who is not a masochist, who has a handle on Abyssea and a way in, is doing Abyssea, not forming parties on the outside

[Sama]

The problem:

One group of people want to leech from 30 to 70
One group of people want to exp party from 30 to 70
There are fewer people levelling from 30 to 70 outside of Abyssea because group 1 exist. But then hasn't group 1 always existed? The game has fewer players these days, so it prevails as a problem. Aby makes it easier for group 1, granted, but it keeps group 1 playing.

My solution:

Make parties between level 30 and 70 more appealing. Why punish people when you can just reward them instead? I think there are number of ways of doing that:

New exciting content - perhaps a version of Campaign or Besieged for lower levels. Or something new altogether.
Skill Ups - if a level sync party to say, level 45, were to give a level 90 skill ups, then I'm sure more level 90s would prefer to party for their skills up (and learn to play their job if they haven't done already) as sitting in The Boyahda Tree (for example) can be quite boring. The new Grounds of Valor offer people skill ups as reward, I don't know if a person can be level synced and still get skill ups, if so then maybe the solution is there and more people need to discover it, or if not, then that's a system where it could be worked into.
A combination of the two - it'd give more of an incentive for level 70+s to participate in new lower level content.

SE failed to see this when Aby came out and they continue to fail making changing. It wouldn't be so hard to make 30-70 outside aby interesting and reward more xp/CP.

[Heady]

Olor, every post ive read from you in multiple threads boils down to: "QQ make it easier", its getting very annoying.

[Mirage]

The only issue I have is that the current exp is like this:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1132077/images/expcurrent.png

When what I think it makes sense that it should look like this:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1132077/images/expshouldbe.png

-edit-
and why can't i put images directly in my post :(.

Now, exp per kill might have been sorted out outside of abyssea, we can get 500 exp from chain5 and stuff. All that's needed now is to make us able to kill things faster.

Another thing, and i've said this many times before but i think it is pretty important. Many FoV pages aren't worth doing anymore, not because the mobs on the page is hard, but because running back to the page to get another takes more time than it does to kill two-three more enemies, and the exp bonus you get from the page is less than the exp of 2-3 enemies now after the exp buff.

Solution? Let the FoV page exp bonus get the same increase as the exp per kill got. Or perhaps even a bit more.

[Olor]

Olor, every post ive read from you in multiple threads boils down to: "QQ make it easier", its getting very annoying.

No, I am not asking for it to be made easier... I am asking for the devs to fix the world outside of Abyssea so that we have a choice beyond

a) leech
b) suffer

That is all.

[Olor]

The only issue I have is that the current exp is like this:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1132077/images/expcurrent.png

When what I think it makes sense that it should look like this:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1132077/images/expshouldbe.png




This is exactly my complaint. Thanks for putting it in graphic form.

[Raxiaz]

I don't think the level limit needs to be raised on Abyssea. Why? Because if a new player were to start, and miraculously get to 30, he or she can then begin to accumulate traverser stones. Need I say more?

The limit was 30+ because SE realized that new players, or even people without 70+ yet, should not be shafted and rather be rewarded in allowing them the ability to enable traverser stone accumulation. It would be unfair, in a sense, to restrict it to only level 70s or higher.

It's also 30+ because there are select quests that can be done without engaging a monster. If I were level 30-69 and interested in Abyssea I would do these quests simply because I know that later down the road they'll help me. If I'm not mistaken, Resistance Ops in the Scars areas can be done level by 30+ players as well. That is all the more helpful; though I won't lie, I doubt anyone below 70 does Bastion let alone the Resistance Ops (which I never see anyone do...).

The real problem with lower level partying is just that: it's lower level partying, and it's slower. Remember when the cap was 75, and you could get 20k/hr (40k/hr if you had the right setup & insanely good) in Aht Urhgan, and you dreaded having to go back to the 6k/hr max possible (without ring) partying?

Now is like then and vice versa, except now we have Abyssea. We have insane EXP/hr, breaking over 100k/hr easily. That's 500% more than your awesome 20k/hr. High level partying has become faster, low level partying used to be the same, but it's slightly faster now. The only thing keeping it from rivaling Abyssea and making it worthwhile: monster strength and difficulty. It takes not even 15-20 seconds in most good Abyssea groups to kill a mob. In most lower level parties, it's easily at least a minute that passes by before the mob is dead.

[Mirage]

I just don't understand the logic behind getting more experience from running around popping chests for two hours, than from running around stabbing monsters that could kill you for two hours.

I'm not saying abyssea exp is too fast or should be nerfed, I'm saying it's just dumb that you gain levels slower by doing something that actually looks like it would make you stronger.

So doing things that it makes sense that would make you stronger should probably make you stronger faster.

[Aliekber]

So doing things that it makes sense that would make you stronger should probably make you stronger faster.

This. If XP outside Abyssea was anywhere near as good as that from opening boxes, most people wouldn't bother begging for a leech spot. The solution isn't to raise the minimum level of Abyssea, it's to boost XP dramatically when leveling the normal way.

[Leonlionheart]

This. If XP outside Abyssea was anywhere near as good as that from opening boxes, most people wouldn't bother begging for a leech spot. The solution isn't to raise the minimum level of Abyssea, it's to boost XP dramatically when leveling the normal way.

They already did, but all of a sudden you find people not buying gear for their jobs because the cost greatly out weighs the benefits you get for the incredibly short time you have it.

You can get 2 levels per MMM pretty much without rings now, assuming you can 100% per run, up until level 50ish, then you'll start getting 1 level per MMM. This means you'll have decent gear for probably an hour before it becomes out dated by your new level.

You can buy then sell it back quickly for similar market price, however to be well geared at any given time would require a somewhat large stockpile of gil, and new players just can't accumulate gil easily like an Abyssea player could (Gil->Cruor rate is like 1gil=2.2cruor or something, while Gil->Dom Pt.s rate is like 1gil=2.5Dom Pt.s).

Without the slow ways of the old it's just not justifiable to have good gear at any given time when playing the game (excluding the long lasting pieces like Peacock Charm, Ochiudo's Kote, Haubergeon, Scorpion Harness, and the like).

This isn't such a big problem, but it can be attributed as one of the reasons your kills are so slow outside of abyssea. That and you're probably not using Qufim->E Ronf [S]->Wajaom->Caedarva->Bhaflau level syncs.

[Kazen]

LOL, omg hahaha...

So you're complaining about New Players that haven't been able to farm their butts off to get 90 Emp Weapons and AF3+2 yet. And instead of giving them advice, your answer is just to call them Noobs and use that as an excuse to why you should Leech to Lv30. Very nice.

Learn to read. No where did I say I made fun of him nor did I make fun of him. I said many of the players in pick up alliances make no effort whatsoever to be anything that could be considered slightly acceptable. I'm sorry but a SAM or any job for that matter with 0% haste is not acceptable.

[Aliekber]

They already did, but all of a sudden you find people not buying gear for their jobs because the cost greatly out weighs the benefits you get for the incredibly short time you have it.

You can get 2 levels per MMM pretty much without rings now, assuming you can 100% per run, up until level 50ish, then you'll start getting 1 level per MMM. This means you'll have decent gear for probably an hour before it becomes out dated by your new level.

That's true. XP below 50 has never really been that bad, though (maybe pre-Zilart, I wouldn't know) due to the small TNLs.

They could add Rajas-style gear drops to GoV to make it easier to stay geared through rapid level increases. Example:

Valorious Lance
DMG: 50~80
Delay: 492
DRG Lv. 30

Have it add 5 base damage for every 5 levels past 30, capping at 80 damage at level 60. Wouldn't be quite as good as using top-of-the-line gear for each level, but helps for times when your level has increased drastically, or for level-syncing.

The 60-75 grind outside Abyssea is the worst, and it would really help if Campaign was targeted at this demographic instead of higher-level players (and had skillups), and the XP rewards were more in line with those of Bastion. It would be better for everyone than nerfing Abyssea.

[Akujima]

I think anything they add for outside of Abyssea, won't sway the player base that's dead set on leeching all 20 jobs to 90 (and 99 when the time comes). Any improvements to area's outside of Abyssea will be regarded by them as "useless and a waste of the developers time" to implement.

EXP'ing as you get to higher levels always becomes slower. It's always been like that and always should be. The problem people are having 60~75, is that people around those levels are already starting to find ways how they can get inside Abyssea, which leaves fewer and fewer people to PT with as your Level rises. Most people I see that are Lv60+ will have /seacoms filled with "Abyssea Only" and "Level Sync, No Thanks".

I don't really see much more of a solution other than raising the LvCap of Abyssea. In fact, not raising the cap and adding more content that tries to appeal to people to EXP/LvUp outside of Abyssea IS a waste of the Dev Team's time, because people already know that Abyssea will still skyrocket them towards 90, and It won't stop them from taking the easiest route possible.

The fastest way from Point A to Point B is always a straight line. Abyssea is the straightest line there is, so if you don't offer up anything that surpasses Abyssea, people simply won't bite.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Raising the Level cap of Abyssea won't solve what you think it will and isn't the 'only solution'. Stop being so dramatic, increasing exp outside of Abyssea isn't a waste of time - it's just arguable they didn't increase it enough to be seen as competitive, but that's impossible anyway except potentially versus scars areas, but even there you can still get exp chests.

[Olor]

EXP'ing as you get to higher levels always becomes slower.

Except it doesn't. That is what makes 60-75 the worst - because it is actually the slowest part unless you leech. Post 75 - you can contribute in some zones (at the very least) and it takes WAY less time to level.

Fix campaign exp and add skill ups and tons of people from 60-75 (and people trying to cap their skills who also want to get some of the bonuses from campaign points/do the WotG storyline) would participate.

[Aliekber]

All they need to do is make it so the effort of XPing outside of Abyssea at mid-level is less than the effort of setting up an Abyssea alliance/begging a leech spot, and has XP return in the same league. Believe it or not, it's not a walk-in-the-park getting a leech spot unless you or a friend of yours built the alliance specifically for that purpose. It's only easy to get leech spots when the level cap increases and everyone wants to level their mains.

Short version: you don't have to surpass Abyssea XP to get mid-level people to turn to alternatives--appealing to people's laziness will usually win over appealing to their desire for efficiency given similar returns.

[home20]

Don't see the issue here. If you want to level in the old fashion, get a static group together and have at it. Otherwise, leave those level 30 drgs alone. Why does it bother you how others play the game? Especially since most people being leeched to 90 have multiple 90s already, this game is very easy to play at high levels no matter what the job, and whether or not abyssea exists would have no influence on how many bad players reach 90.

Pre-abyssea exp was awful and boring except for specific zones, qufim island worms, and colibri. That wasn't fun, and the only thing I learned was how bad people can be at the game.

This game is 9 years old, end game is where the content is, and where it should be now.

[Leonlionheart]

Increasing the rewards of MMM by doubling the XP there is a quick fix and would probably surpass even abyssea leeching in terms of speed with the correct party setups. Problem is party setups are similar to 75 meripos, meaning 75% of the jobs will be left out.

But again, you can't just increase exp rate outside without changing gear because the cost of buying gear for less than 30min of use will be quite horrible.

Gear is a huge factor in all of this, its easier to equip dinner gear and not anything else till perle/aurore/teal

[bungiefan]

If only I could level GKT that way.

/sigh

You can, just take a weak GKT to Castle Zvahl (S) and fight Zvahl Fortalices for a few hours. You'll max out your skill within a dozen kills. At least to level 82 skill caps.

[Akujima]

Except it doesn't.

I'm talking about MMO's and RPG's in general.

[Leonlionheart]

Soooo... let's boil it down.

Group 1: "I want to level outside"
-Leveling outside has sentimental value.
-Leveling outside is actually fun, compared to running around opening chests.
-Leveling outside lets one "learn" their job.
-Leveling outside allows one to get into the game if they are a newer player.

Group 2: "I want to leech"
-Leveling outside is boring and repetitive.
-Leveling outside takes much longer, prolonging the enjoyment of endgame.
-Leveling outside takes too much gil for little to no reward when given the option to leech otherwise.
-Leveling outside is old, and most veteran players are tired of it.
-One can learn their job quicker and faster, and most of the time better, by doing research into their jobs role, important stats on gear, Job abilities true effects, and the caps of their stats (dDEX, fSTR, Crit Rate Cap, Fast Cast Cap, etc).

In the end:
Group 1 caters to newer players to some extent,
while Group 2 caters to veteran players who have had Lv.75 jobs for years and are tired of it.

Considering the amount of returning players outweighs the amount of new players, SE seems to know it's demographic.

[Panthera]

Again, no one is stopping you from leveling the old way. And just because you think it's fun shouldn't restrict others from doing other things when they don't think it's fun.
Leveling up is an inherent part of this game, and most RPGs, online, offline, or even classic dice and paper variations. That isn't my opinion, that is a fact. Both AFB and do-nothing leeching circumvent active involvement in one's own leveling up. To level crafting, you have to craft! To level fishing, you have to fight each fish down till you real them in. Chocobo Digging, Synergy, leveling NPCs, skilling up magic and combat skills all work the same way; perform that task and you will become stronger at that task. Why should leveling up jobs be any different than any other activity in the game?

And furthermore, when someone can cheat their way to 90, it takes away from my stature as a level 90. I have a 90, in fact, I have -all- of them, but so what? anyone can get that by just stand around twittling their thumbs. But why stop there? Let's have NPCs that sell Ebisu Rods for 200 Gil. Let's also have a quest where all you get 5000 exp for just standing there. Oh wait, we have that quest already. So yes, I think that there should be restrictions about cheating in a game. Here's your Warp Whistle, I shouldn't have to explain to you how to use it.

[Akujima]

Leveling up is an inherent part of this game, and most RPGs, online, offline, or even classic dice and paper variations. That isn't my opinion, that is a fact. Both AFB and do-nothing leeching circumvent active involvement in one's own leveling up. To level crafting, you have to craft! To level fishing, you have to fight each fish down till you real them in. Chocobo Digging, Synergy, leveling NPCs, skilling up magic and combat skills all work the same way; perform that task and you will become stronger at that task. Why should leveling up jobs be any different than any other activity in the game?

People just can't argue with this paragraph.

It's a simple fact that all RPG's are like this. Just because the RPG is an online one, doesn't nullify the facts.

[Romanova]

Leveling up is an inherent part of this game, and most RPGs, online, offline, or even classic dice and paper variations. That isn't my opinion, that is a fact. Both AFB and do-nothing leeching circumvent active involvement in one's own leveling up. To level crafting, you have to craft! To level fishing, you have to fight each fish down till you real them in. Chocobo Digging, Synergy, leveling NPCs, skilling up magic and combat skills all work the same way; perform that task and you will become stronger at that task. Why should leveling up jobs be any different than any other activity in the game?

Did you honestly just try to prove your point by saying, "other games/aspects do it, so this has to do it too"? No, they don't have to follow a formal just because the formula is often used.


So yes, I think that there should be restrictions about cheating in a game.

Cheating would be doing something against TOS. This is the same argument people used against Smn burns. They claimed because they got xp so fast unlike regular parties it must be cheating, yet SE has never taken action against those players even after all this time.

It seems SE is actually encouraging this type of activity, so claiming it's "cheating" makes you look like a sore loser as it has not been against SE's policy at all.


And once again, none of what you said means you can't xp the old way. So again, you're just whining over numbers in a video game.

[Ravenmore]

Considering that most people that are key whoreing wouldn't have touch any of the jobs they are leeching. So 65/75 entry would do nothing for low leveling parties outside of abyssea. There were few parties outside of merit parties pre-abyssea. Even then those choose to level sync at 20 and 37.

[Meyi]

Kind of like a new born baby Alien from the movie "Alien".

Um...kay.



When that content completely kills off everything else, then yea there's something wrong with that content.

Because after eight years we should continue doing everything we've done? No. It's called level cap increase, and if you think level 75 gear should be the best equipment at 99, then you are the delusional one.



This is absolute BS to the max.

The only reason NEW players wear Perle, Aurore and Teal equip, is because all the other good gear that comes from OTHER CONTENT is obsolete and nobody runs that stuff anymore. Oh wow, what made that other content obsolete in the first place? Lol... People like GG who support Lv30 Abyssea leeching, that's what.

Actually, there are still some pieces that are still the best from previous events. These pieces cannot be replaced from Abyssea or anything else currently in the game.

Keep in mind Final Fantasy XI is a video game. If you think those events will be fun, then go do them. If you are only wanting to do them for the rewards then why even waste your time? If you need rewards to stimulate yourself to go then you're in the same boat as everyone else; dissatisfied with the old endgame content. The only reason the majority of the player base did those events was not out of enjoyment, but for the armor.

Trust me, we're relieved that we don't have to do that anymore.

As for leeching there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. I have a friend who has leeched many jobs through and he's amazing at all of them. He has great gear, he knows what he's doing. I leeched my taru black mage from 65 to 90. And I leeched my taru white mage from 30 to 90. But I think you should refrain from passing judgment because a lot of the leechers are returning players which means that they've already played this game before and the odds are high they're picking the jobs they liked the first time to level up again. That means they already know what they're doing.


And GG has the nerve to complain about their gear without actually giving it any thought as to why they're forced to wear it. All I can say to that is LOL.

No, the reason we complain about that gear is because it's terrible. AF3+1 is very easy to get and is a huge improvement to Teal/Pearl/Aurore. Quests are easy and shout groups are even easier. Make a few friends and the monsters are fun.

I honestly don't even know why I'm bothering trying to explain this to you. It seems it won't go through.

[Ravenmore]

The crour gear is good for what it is, stop gap gear. Hell its 100x better then 3/5 AF people back at 75. AF3 though is pretty easy to get between all the ways you can get it. Got a day off go shout up a few people only have 20 to 30 mins run a quick quest and there is the random seal from ops.

[Chocobits]

Considering that most people that are key whoreing wouldn't have touch any of the jobs they are leeching. So 65/75 entry would do nothing for low leveling parties outside of abyssea. There were few parties outside of merit parties pre-abyssea. Even then those choose to level sync at 20 and 37.

Well, true to a point. Except the choice part. People xp at those 2 camps because they DON'T have a choice, whether they prefer those camps or not. Well, there's always Valkurm pts. I refuse those though no matter how many DDs are in the pt, how many PLs the PT has and how good the xp could be. I will never xp in the dunes again in my lifetime. Considering my solo kill speed on pretty much any job 10-20, it would be kinda dumb to subject myself to that. But I digress.

The solution to Abyssea leeching is: double AGAIN the xp per mob outside of Abyssea, give larger bonuses for xp chains, give Abyssea-like xp from Fields of Valor/GoV pages, increase the number of valor books, rework valor pages to make sense (who, anywhere, for any reason would xp on lizards in the jungle at the same time as mandies? They're levels apart). While we're tweaking FoV:

Still can't get tabs more than once per hour. And Repatriation and meal effects still cost 50 points why?

Since SE isn't going to nerf Abyssea xp, or nerf entry level any time in the near future, it makes more sense to request en masse that xp conditions be vastly improved outside of Abyssea. I wouldn't mind if xp was still a bit slow, as long as it was somewhere comparable. The trade-off of more available camps, more available people seeking for party, and the fun of actually fighting things would be refreshing.

If you really want to enact some kind of anti-leech change in Abyssea though, start by making common sense suggestions that would bring detriment to an Abyssea group:

Party members are auto-synced to the lowest level person while inside of Abyssea. Leeching solved.

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]

My html tags don't always work in these forums.

[Akujima]

No, the reason we complain about that gear is because it's terrible. AF3+1 is very easy to get and is a huge improvement to Teal/Pearl/Aurore.


So if it's their FIRST time in Abyssea, and they are farming their FIRST NM EVER for AF3+1 seals... You're expecting them to already have a full set of AF3+1? How does that make any sense at all?

AND they just entered Abyssea, and want to get some EXP and Merit points for crying out loud... And you call them WORSE than KeyLeech's?... For actually TRYING to do the best they can, with whatever gear they can get in their FIRST EXP PT's inside Abyssea...

Something is seriously wrong there. Drop the narcissistic/megalomaniac attitude and cut these people some slack.

I would expect them to wear Perle and Aurore (And I'm pretty sure YOU did at one point as well) and get some Merit Points and Skill Ups for their Job, before farming Seals from NM's on lowman 4~6 member PT's, where Merits and Skill Ups would actually do them some good. At least they're trying to contribute and improve themselves.

And if you don't understand the Alien analogy, then you obviously haven't seen the movie "Alien (1979)". Good movie, 30 years old, but still holds well to this day, even amongst all these vampire, nonsense, played out, hollywood garbage movies.

[Ravenmore]

Unless it was alli level there would be fewer camps. Most camps can only surport 1 party with only 2 or 3 good camps ToAU anyone. Abyssea camps surport far more people then any of the old camps. The key word there is people not parties. If its turns out to be to much of a trouble then were rite back at no one bothering to level new jobs.

[Panthera]

Did you honestly just try to prove your point by saying, "other games/aspects do it, so this has to do it too"? No, they don't have to follow a formal just because the formula is often used.

Yes, I honestly am saying that RPGs are games involving filling in the shoes of characters that level up over time by definition. Not instantly.


Cheating would be doing something against TOS.

No, that's not necessarally what the word "cheating" means. What you're talking about is "breaking the rules," when the rules say that you cannot do something, and you do it anyway. "Cheating" means to to deprive, mislead, evade, or act dishonestly. Leeching deprives those who actually earned their level out of their prestige. It misleads people that you've been playing your job for 90 levels, when all you've done at best is just open chests, and at worst, just stood around doing nothing. Leeching evades the leveling up process of particpating in battle in a way specific to the main job being leveled. More generally, cheating is dishonest. Did you really, honestly earn level 90? No, you just leeched. Leeching is cheating by defintions, plural.


It seems SE is actually encouraging this type of activity...

No, this arguement is a fabrication. SE has never explictly nor implicitly advised the player base to leech. What's more, players from level 1-29 are restricted from participating in Abyssea. I should call that discouraging, indeed. At most, players are permitted to enter at level 30, but permission is a far cry from encouragement. Furthermore, let's not forget that one must be level 50 to enter Assault, level 60 to enter Einherjar, level 65 to enter Dynamis or Salvage, and level 70 to enter the Walk of Echoes. Generally speaking, SE doesn't just discourage low level characters in end game areas, they outright prohibit it. Why SE picked level 30 as the entry level is beyond me. It should be either at least +60, if not more like 70+, or no level restriction at all. A level 30 cap just makes no sense.


...So claiming it's "cheating" makes you look like a sore loser as it has not been against SE's policy at all.

The invalidity of your premise not withstanding, "soar loser" implies a finality to the issue that does not yet exist. Until a community rep says that the level cap will be raised, lowered, or will remain as is, the jury is still out, and there's no winners or losers to be had.**

Until then, you might think that the permittance of leeching is by design. By all means, leech then. Leech, leech now...and leech while you can. Do you remember how low level players joined campaign battles and worked that exp system for what it was worth? spamming useless buffs while contributing nothing to the battle. They even made scripts for it. Abyssea is no different, and I wager it shall suffer a similar fate. And if and when low level players return to normal areas, no one will pity them after mobs have double the exp values as they once did and FOVs can be repeated as often as desired.


And once again, none of what you said means you can't xp the old way.

Correct, none of what I said means that, it was never intended to.


So again, you're just whining over numbers in a video game.

I am loath to retort a summary this sophomoric (and sophomoric is a very generous gift), but if indeed I am, you are as well.



**Provided the number of replies and views of this thread alone, as well as similar threads, any input from a Community rep would be most welcome, just to put the matter to rest.

[Ravenmore]

I like leech got me many a level on subs I woulda put as little into as I could. Case in point I took my whm from 20 to 37 with out touch one mob or party before abyssea. I hate for that job was that much I was content with feeding it exp scrolls and doing the camp op picking trash up around windy.

[Meyi]

So if it's their FIRST time in Abyssea, and they are farming their FIRST NM EVER for AF3+1 seals... You're expecting them to already have a full set of AF3+1? How does that make any sense at all?

I don't expect that of anyone. If it's their first NM though, it'll be obvious. I don't mind helping people and I don't mind guiding them through events for the first few times. It's okay; I was new to Abyssea at one time too. We all were.

What I'm saying is that there are lots of players who believe they can continue to wear Teal/Aurore/Pearl and be acceptable to a party. Ravenmore hit the nail on the head; these three sets are stop gears. They're decent gears to level up into, but they're not decent to stay in.

And unlike all of the boring end game events at 75, Abyssea monster hunting can be fun. Hands and bodies are sometimes a pain but I've enjoyed helping tons of people get head, pants, and feet seals.


AND they just entered Abyssea, and want to get some EXP and Merit points for crying out loud... And you call them WORSE than KeyLeech's? for actually TRYING to do the best they can, with whatever gear they can get in their FIRST EXP PT's inside Abyssea.

Something is seriously wrong there. Drop the narcissistic/megalomaniac attitude and cut these people some slack.

KeyLeeches actually provide something beneficial to a party; they give up their cruor so I can get better exp and better cruor myself.

It's rather annoying to be continuously accused of thinking poorly of new people. Quite the contrary. I am always welcoming of new people and I am happy to at least help them verbally with understanding the world of Vana'diel. What I cannot stand are people who refuse to learn their job or learn how to play. These people slow me down. They slow everyone down. And when people try to encourage them to fix their gear they start crying.

I knew a black mage who was very upset in linkshell about not being able to sleep monsters. I asked him what his enfeeble set was. Do you know what it was? Nonexistant. I started looking up my set and repeating it to shell only to fall on deaf ears. Eventually when I went out to help him, I noticed he wasn't even changing staves to cast a nuke. He told me he hated blinking.

That, Akujima, is what we, the pro-keyleech team, disapprove of.

New people? Welcome (back) to the game.

Idiots? Get out, stop wasting our party slots pretending to be participating. And if that's not bad enough they all flood the forums and cry more.


I would expect them to wear Perle and Aurore (And I'm pretty sure YOU did at one point as well) and get some Merit Points and Skill Ups for their Job, before farming Seals from NM's on lowman 4~6 member PT's, where Merits and Skill Ups would actually do them some good. At least they're trying to contribute and improve themselves.

Actually I wore mostly Teal plus normal quality AF3 feet and hands because that's all I had on my taru. But as soon as I got to level 85 I rushed out to Abyssea - Vunkerl and did the seal quest about 80 times to get my feet +1ed. There was proof that I had leveled black mage to 75 on my Elvaan; I had all of my HQ staves and tradeable gear, plus I knew not to cast Stone on worms. X3

[Ravenmore]

The only thing that gets me with pearl set is the people that mix it with gear they already have. Like using the body, hands, and feet with tuban and kitty pants. If they going to do that might as well pick up dusk gloves for 10k and harby 20 to 30k or a +1 for around 100k with some cheap fumes.

[Akujima]

What I cannot stand are people who refuse to learn their job or learn how to play. These people slow me down. They slow everyone down. And when people try to encourage them to fix their gear they start crying.

...

Idiots? Get out, stop wasting our party slots pretending to be participating. And if that's not bad enough they all flood the forums and cry more.

Yea, and it's these same people who cry about how Loooooong it takes to Level Up. It's these same people crying about how much time it takes to go anywhere, demanding more teleports, etc, etc. "Are we there yet?! Are we there yet!?" Sound familiar?

And anyone who agree's with this thread, could hardly be considered an idiot or a "noob". Because what it asks for is to remove "noobness" and stop the leeching and exploitation of game content. Anyone who agree's with raising the LvCap of Abyssea to 70 or 75, actually has some good sense and knows a good MMORPG or RPG when they see one.

Allow people to start collecting stones at Lv30 (And get Jaochim to tell you that he'll give them to you, once he thinks you're ready to handle Abyssea). But don't give in to the children and spoil them, because then they'll never grow up.

[Ravenmore]

Its not like gimps wern't around doing it the old way. No matter how retarded a whm, rdm or brd was back at 75 chances are you would still invite them if they were the only ones looking to fill that spot.

[Panthera]

I don't really see much more of a solution other than raising the LvCap of Abyssea. In fact, not raising the cap and adding more content that tries to appeal to people to EXP/LvUp outside of Abyssea IS a waste of the Dev Team's time, because people already know that Abyssea will still skyrocket them towards 90, and It won't stop them from taking the easiest route possible.

The fastest way from Point A to Point B is always a straight line. Abyssea is the straightest line there is, so if you don't offer up anything that surpasses Abyssea, people simply won't bite

Well said sir, and I completely agree with you.

It's like you say, even with vastly increased base exp, there is just nothing that can keep up with 1000 free exp per mob for every 5 mobs, e.g. Sand Sweepers Op #1. This camp is just overcrowded because it's just so much better than everything else...in the entire game. And secondly, with self buffing Atma effects, and the fact that it's up to 18 players against one mob, there is just no way to keep up with that kind of base kill speed, not even considering the absurd bonus exp.

[Ravenmore]

Huh guess one thing I can like of my new home seems most just go and FC frogs while charging leechs 150k a hour. Dolls only had my LS alli and a couple of solos and one single party.

[Akujima]

Well said sir, and I completely agree with you.

Greatguardian didn't say that... I did.

Was that intentional or unintentional or?...

[hiko]

Leveling up is an inherent part of this game, and most RPGs, online, offline, or even classic dice and paper variations. That isn't my opinion, that is a fact.
in most rpg your char cant lvl 20 job and change job everytime they want.


Well, true to a point. Except the choice part. People xp at those 2 camps because they DON'T have a choice, whether they prefer those camps or not. Well, there's always Valkurm pts. I refuse those though no matter how many DDs are in the pt, how many PLs the PT has and how good the xp could be. I will never xp in the dunes again in my lifetime. Considering my solo kill speed on pretty much any job 10-20, it would be kinda dumb to subject myself to that. But I digress.

people lvl at those 2 camps because they are the better camps (when not overcrowded)

[Panthera]

Greatguardian didn't say that... I did.

Was that intentional or unintentional or?...

unintentional. These forums can be a tad broken at times when it comes to quoting repeatedly in the same thread.

[Panthera]

in most rpg your char cant lvl 20 job and change job everytime they want.(when not overcrowded)

So, what is your point? You really haven't drawn a conclusion.

[hiko]

So, what is your point? You really haven't drawn a conclusion.

My point is that most of the leechers already went through "Leveling up is an inherent part of this game" several times before aby release,

[Akujima]

Its not like gimps wern't around doing it the old way. No matter how retarded a whm, rdm or brd was back at 75 chances are you would still invite them if they were the only ones looking to fill that spot.


It's kind of funny how people fall back on the excuse of "oh we had the same problems, just like in the old days!". Kind of reminds me of a parent telling their child not to smoke cigarettes because it's bad for their health, right after lighting one up. Would be nice if people didn't turn their heads to issues that should be resolved, but I'm guessing people are forgetting what made FFXI such a great MMORPG in the first place, continuing to assault all us "old timers" by telling us we should "take the nostalgia goggles off"...

I played WoW for about 6 months and it didn't take very long to exp to Max Lv if you knew what you were doing. It was fun to explore new zones and new instances while leveling up throughout the game. And yes it can be boring at times, but the PvP and Raiding content in endgame was very good. Blizzard understands how to Balance their game. They understand what an RPG is supposed to be like, they understand the concept of "Tanks" for crying out loud... Blizzard understands their player base far better than SE understands theirs. Blizzard knows that if people are given the opportunity to throw their game out of balance, it WILL happen and Blizzard corrects their mistakes, instead of turning a blind eye to them.

Lv30 entry requirement for Abyssea is a mistake, and anyone with good sense knows that.

As mentioned before, there is no balance in having LvCaps on Assault, Salvage, Dynamis, Limbus, etc, that are higher than Abyssea's and those events don't give copious amounts of EXP. EXP which is vital in Leveling Up. And Leveling Up is a vital process of an RPG. Lv30 KeyLeechers is utter nonsense.

[rog]

in most rpg your char cant lvl 20 job and change job everytime they want.
ff13 allowed you to change jobs repeatedly, mid fight. In fact, it heavily encouraged it, with things like starting with 3x ravager, staggering the mob, then switching to 3x commando to kill it. Using only a single class was not really a realistic option even.

Other games like X-2 allowed changing jobs, all of which need to be leveled separately (sort of), and could be changed in battle as well, though there was little reason to do so.

Then there's ffx, which was a bit different, in that each character started out as one specific class, but ended up all converging into identical multi-class characters.

And that is just a few examples from series of games. Really having multiple jobs/classes that can be switched between is nothing new or unique. Nice try though.

[Panthera]

My point is that most of the leechers already went through "Leveling up is an inherent part of this game" several times before aby release,

You still haven't come to a final conclusion, really. I'm going to make what I can only guess your point is for you. You believe that since "in most rpg your char cant lvl 20 job and change job everytime they want" and that they have already gone through it several times that they should therefore be able to leech?

In RPGs, even if each character has only one job, you generally have to level each character; leveling one does not excuse you from leveling another. At best, you could level groups of characters, but you'd still have to catch reserve characters up. Similarly, you might be able to earn Ability Points into jobs simultaneously, but they're still independent of one another. It's the same thing with FFXI: leveling White Mage in no way pardons you from leveling Dark Knight or any other job, and leeching is an attempt to circumvent that process.

Besides which, many people ignore the fact that levels are deceptive; it's often combat and magic skills which determine whether nukes land or if physical hits land and for how much. Leeching is in that regard, pointless. You'll still have to skill up a combat skill, further proving the point that leveling up, in one way or another, is an inherent, inexorable and inevitable part of the game. The point of leeching is to make oneself eligible for gear for jobs one may not have any skills in, which compounds dishonesty with flat-out greed.

[rog]

level plays a significant role in damage and accuracy formulas, fyi.

[Panthera]

level plays a significant role in damage and accuracy formulas, fyi.
Right you are, I overstated. I should have said "combat and magic skills are significant factors which determine whether nukes land or if physical hits land and for how much."

Speaking from experience, I leveled a lot of jobs with Level Sync. When it came time to fight Maat, I had undercapped skills due to fighting under level sync, and I had to retry. Ultimately, I prevailed, but only after leveling up my combat skills. It is no different than leeching and then expecting to be effective at jobs one is lotting gear for.

[Romanova]

Yes, I honestly am saying that RPGs are games involving filling in the shoes of characters that level up over time by definition. Not instantly.

RPG = role-playing game, not leveling role playing game. You are adding rules to a term that doesn't need rules, just to fit your arguement.




No, that's not necessarally what the word "cheating" means. What you're talking about is "breaking the rules," when the rules say that you cannot do something, and you do it anyway. "Cheating" means to to deprive, mislead, evade, or act dishonestly. Leeching deprives those who actually earned their level out of their prestige. It misleads people that you've been playing your job for 90 levels, when all you've done at best is just open chests, and at worst, just stood around doing nothing. Leeching evades the leveling up process of particpating in battle in a way specific to the main job being leveled. More generally, cheating is dishonest. Did you really, honestly earn level 90? No, you just leeched. Leeching is cheating by defintions, plural.

None of it is "dishonest" because they aren't doing it in secret. As other said, bad players will be bad. I remember back in the day there was a huge stigma against bought accounts saying "how on earth can they be any good if they haven't leveled it?!" But overtime as I met people will bought accounts, I came to a shocking discovery....ffxi is not that hard. I've met many of people who've leeched their jobs. You are stereo-typing them, with no reason.

And lol at your term "honestly earned". By your definition, I guess so. But what they're doing is just as honest imo because they are not doing anything against SE.




No, this arguement is a fabrication. SE has never explictly nor implicitly advised the player base to leech. What's more, players from level 1-29 are restricted from participating in Abyssea. I should call that discouraging, indeed. At most, players are permitted to enter at level 30, but permission is a far cry from encouragement. Furthermore, let's not forget that one must be level 50 to enter Assault, level 60 to enter Einherjar, level 65 to enter Dynamis or Salvage, and level 70 to enter the Walk of Echoes. Generally speaking, SE doesn't just discourage low level characters in end game areas, they outright prohibit it. Why SE picked level 30 as the entry level is beyond me. It should be either at least +60, if not more like 70+, or no level restriction at all. A level 30 cap just makes no sense.

1. this team is different than the old team, referring to old capped areas when this current team has been lifting caps left and right, makes zero sense.

2. I have seen interviews where SE has said in the past they like it when people come up with creative ways to level. In particular I remember this was in reference to nin's becoming tanks, and much later to blms soloing wamouras. So this is why I believe they have nothing against either this or smn burn, because it is still within the game mechanics and you aren't using 3rd party tools to achieve it. And considering smn burns were never stopped, I have to believe this current team is the same way.




The invalidity of your premise not withstanding, "soar loser" implies a finality to the issue that does not yet exist. Until a community rep says that the level cap will be raised, lowered, or will remain as is, the jury is still out, and there's no winners or losers to be had.**

fine then have it your way, you are either a completely sore loser, or a sore winner. None of this effects you outside of your pride getting hurt that other people did it easier. I call that sore no matter what.


Do you remember how low level players joined campaign battles and worked that exp system for what it was worth? spamming useless buffs while contributing nothing to the battle. They even made scripts for it. Abyssea is no different, and I wager it shall suffer a similar fate. And if and when low level players return to normal areas, no one will pity them after mobs have double the exp values as they once did and FOVs can be repeated as often as desired.

You fail at arguing by insisting X will happen just because you want it to happen, which further proves how selfish you are being and only care about your own accomplishments in a video game.


I'd like to point out again, I have only leeched once, and that was because 4 years ago I made the stupid decision that I wanted to dual box characters and had a mage toon and a melee toon. I hate dual boxing. So, I'm working towards consolidating all my classes onto one character. I've already done rdm, I didn't care about leeching it back up.

With that said, outside the classes I've already lvled, I probably won't leech. Not because I think it's bad or wrong, but because I like my gil and don't want to pay for it. XD

And again, I've been doing just fine getting regular parties outside of abysea. People have the choice. And I like choices. If you don't like leeching don't do it, but then don't get on a high horse and try to shut it down for others.


ffstuff

While I agree with you, I'd imagine hiko meant MMOs. I think I only ever heard of one other mmo (koMMO iirc) that allowed the character change system. (if he didn't mean it, then he definitely wasn't thinking right.),

[Kimble]

If they raised the cap to 70 or 75, people would just go back to smn burning jobs to 70-75.

[Sparthos]

If they raised the cap to 70 or 75, people would just go back to smn burning jobs to 70-75.

Are you really going to compare the ease of access of Abyssea leeching to the relative difficulty in getting a puller/s and setting up a SMNburn?

During the age of SMNburn people were still EXPing, doing MMM pts and other forms of exp play. Now? Its Abyssea leeching or grind solo.

Big difference, not that I want to go back to LFP and specific cookie-cutter PT setups. I just find that Abyssea leeching will be one of the key factors that brings this game to its knees.

[Romanova]

During the age of SMNburn people were still EXPing, doing MMM pts and other forms of exp play. Now? Its Abyssea leeching or grind solo.

I'm in a regular xp pt as we speak. Stop exaggerating. Flagged for only about 5 minutes too.


I'm wondering if the people who seem to insist that parties don't exist, actually try to form their own parties, or sit in jeuno expecting them to get formed for them.

[edit] my party is in qufim, and there are 3 other parties here. old xping is not dead.

[Raxiaz]

Abyssea leeching is a problem in the game. You can't fix it now, as has been stated.

However, there is nothing stopping anyone from forming a small (2-4) party and killing T-VT monsters. You will find that that method will produce acceptable EXP/hr and you will wonder why you hadn't done so earlier. And if you're wondering where those other few people come from, you should have friends. LS mates. And lastly, the people looking for party. That's how the priority tier should look like when seeking members for a group. Yet people are ignorant and continue to /sea all invite x-y. They think a party MUST consist of AT LEAST a WHM/RDM/SCH, a PLD or NIN, DDs, and other jobs as necessary.

That's not true at all. Any DD subbing DNC can function as a main healer in a small group. A dedicated tank is unnecessary, and even if it were necessary there are jobs (like MNK, and SAM) that when paired with the right sub can perform just as well as a PLD, in a small group situation.

I dare some of you to try that. It's simple. Get a small group together, no more than 4 people, and go kill T-VT mobs. With the EXP adjustments they did in February, you'll be able to attain great EXP/hr. I am sure of it.

And if you don't at least try... then stop your complaining.

[Ravenmore]

The game has always been been based around getting max level and gear. Anything thing else your trying to tell your self is a lie. In the end even though you enjoy the story line and play for it doesn't mean that the rest of us do. Don't force your way of playing on the rest of us, cause at this point alot of people already have all the jobs they really care about at 70+ so still no low leveling if they up it.

[Sparthos]

I'm in a regular xp pt as we speak. Stop exaggerating. Flagged for only about 5 minutes too.


I'm wondering if the people who seem to insist that parties don't exist, actually try to form their own parties, or sit in jeuno expecting them to get formed for them.

[edit] my party is in qufim, and there are 3 other parties here. old xping is not dead.

Grats?

Theres 14 people flagged from 30-76 on my server atm. Average around ~20 during primetime.

Old school EXP is a novelty and if you get a PT, consider yourself lucky.

[Romanova]

Grats?

Theres 14 people flagged from 30-76 on my server atm. Average around ~20 during primetime.

Old school EXP is a novelty and if you get a PT, consider yourself lucky.

that's two parties right there with the right jobs. and again ALL I DO IS REGULAR PTS.

and count how many actual parties are already out there xping.


it is not dead, I think in all the regular partying I've done, I've had maybe 2 days where I got unlucky.


Again, even if there were 100 people seeking the tank to DD ratio would still slow it down to where it's at currently.

Anyone thinking otherwise either a. is too lazy to make their own parties b. have their nostaglia glasses on backwards.

[Akujima]

ALL I DO IS REGULAR PTS.


So then why are you on here defending Abyssea Leeching?

[Sparthos]

that's two parties right there with the right jobs. and again ALL I DO IS REGULAR PTS.

and count how many actual parties are already out there xping.


it is not dead, I think in all the regular partying I've done, I've had maybe 2 days where I got unlucky.


Again, even if there were 100 people seeking the tank to DD ratio would still slow it down to where it's at currently.

Anyone thinking otherwise either a. is too lazy to make their own parties b. have their nostaglia glasses on backwards.

Current EXP PTs on Lakshmi:

ERon(S): 0
Wajaom: 0
MMM: 0
Cad Mire: 0
Altepa: 1
Thickets: 0

Dude, im glad you've found EXP parties but the reality is that they are something in the past and made so because of rampant Abyssea leeching. For someone logging in, you'd be hard pressed to make a PT because:

A. Most people rather leech.
B. Getting a rep if someone leaves is a nightmare.
C. Old EXP was already bad if you didn't have proper resources.

This has nothing to do with tanks cause gasp, you don't need them in a meleeburn. What this has to do with is the fact that Abyssea has a superior way to level and thus people do not want to go back to horribly slow EXP.

If you're a new player this is doubly so because it means you'll be soloing a majority of the time (no keys to leech, not enough willing to pt cause of leeching) which leads to tedium, frustration and eventually quitting. You can say the same thing existed before Abyssea but at least then you knew others were suffering along side you.

You can keep saying that people aren't "trying" hard enough though.

[Romanova]

So then why are you on here defending Abyssea Leeching?

I see nothing wrong with people having options?

As I said, (I don't want to sound misleading,) I did leech only once, because I have two toons and I am working towards putting all my jobs onto one toon since I hate dual boxing. I had some extra gil so leeched on my rdm.

However, for me, I love my gil more than I love my xp XD. XP the old way is free, whereas I have to pay to leech (god knows I already spend enough on nin tools as it is).

If I could leech for free I probably would.

But I also don't mind xp the old way too much.


To put it in perspective, if SE didn't allow us to xp the old way at all then I would be up in arms with you. I like choices, I am more than willing to take an outside look and say "even if I don't like X I can see why others do, and they pay just as much money to play this game as I do"


But again I've had zero issue getting into pts, and actually get htem fast than I used to (hurray for camps not being overcrowded!). Therefore I see no issue in this whatsoever.

[Raxiaz]

God forbid anyone actually communicate in this game. Hop on a lower level job and ask around to see if anyone's interested in leveling with you. It doesn't take but two people to have a better EXP/hr than a soloer, if they're smart about duoing.

I can't believe people sometimes. You're all so deadset that parties must be a certain way and take place in certain areas, when that isn't the case at all. You have disappointed me, FFXI community... After going through so much change and so many hardships, forming a small man group for EXP is nigh impossible for you.

[Eeek]

My level 25ish SCH likes to level /DNC meleeing through Buburimu in a frightful gearset consisting only of visible gear and my level 1 Windurstian Ring.

Thanks to adjustments to FoV, Signet, Exp Rings, and the bonus granted to experience points outside of Abyssea, I can get reasonably good exp without joining pickup exp parties!

I'm a reason why your Qufim or Jungles party doesn't have a healer. :3

[Chocobits]

Current EXP PTs on Lakshmi:

ERon(S): 0
Wajaom: 0
MMM: 0
Cad Mire: 0
Altepa: 1
Thickets: 0

Dude, im glad you've found EXP parties but the reality is that they are something in the past and made so because of rampant Abyssea leeching.

To be fair, standard exp parties were dying before the advent of Abyssea. Because of a lack of new players. Everyone was meriting. Those that weren't meriting were exping in: Qufim, Eron, Wajaom. Fast forward today. Those that aren't Abyssea leeching are exping in.. Qufim, Eron, Wajaom.

I'm pretty confident if the devs took the time to "waste their time" and implement a better exp system outside of Abyssea, it would cut down on the leeching.

But please, remind me again why we're against leeching? Are we against new players leeching because they can't "learn their jobs"? Are we against old players exping jobs they never plan to use? What is the argument exactly, I'm 13 guys what is this?

Nobody was learning how to play their jobs before Abyssea except those that took the time to look things up on forums. The reasons being:

-Stubbornness (wanting to play a job the way you want to play it regardless of how sucky it is, melee brd go!) "It's MY 13 bucks a month!"

-Ignorance (not knowing or caring that there are better ways to do things)

-"Good" exp parties allowed people to level so fast they didn't have a chance to learn much at all, either as a player or as a character combat/magic skillwise

-Level sync denied pretty much everyone a chance to learn anything about a job 60+ because everyone spent all their time as a lvl 20, 37 or 55

-Experience points parties were NEVER a good way to teach or learn how to play a job, because the only thing exp taught was.. how to exp

So does this whole thread boil down to oldf**s crying that all their hard work leveling the "old way" (the definition of "old way" being whatever was the commonly practiced way when they were exping, which changes every couple years) were in vain because the same amount of work can be done in days vs months now?

If we're old-man ranting, how about the fact that Abyssea xp in general, for everyone is TOO fast. Whereas 25k/hr was a pretty dang good pt at one point, 100k/hr in Abyssea is considered a "meh" party. If they had made Abyssea cap out at 50k/hr~ we all still would have thought it was great. People would take 4-5 days of hard work and a lot more cruor to leech to 90 instead of 1-2, and people would still be complaining about the state of things, but a bit less loudly.

So in this post, we (hopefully) realize that:

-Old way sucked
-Exp parties were never a good source for "learning a job"
-People will suck at their jobs no matter how difficult you make it to level up
-People will find a way to leech or circumvent your personal ideas on how exp should be restricted
-Nobody cares about brokenhearted oldf**s. (I'm an oldf** too, but you don't see me crying like a fat baby Jesus)
-Tougher exp does not a more educated playerbase make

With all of that pounded into the heads of the "increase Abyssea entrance lvl" whiners, we finally come down to the real root of their argument, which I will summarize as follows:

"We suffered. Y'all need to feel the suffering too."

[Sparthos]

To be fair, standard exp parties were dying before the advent of Abyssea. Because of a lack of new players. Everyone was meriting. Those that weren't meriting were exping in: Qufim, Eron, Wajaom. Fast forward today. Those that aren't Abyssea leeching are exping in.. Qufim, Eron, Wajaom.

I'm pretty confident if the devs took the time to "waste their time" and implement a better exp system outside of Abyssea, it would cut down on the leeching.

But please, remind me again why we're against leeching? Are we against new players leeching because they can't "learn their jobs"? Are we against old players exping jobs they never plan to use? What is the argument exactly, I'm 13 guys what is this?

Im not against leeching.

What I am against is the fact that leeching has completely killed off any other alternative to partying. You're either soloing, getting the rare EXP party or doing leeching.

I posted in another thread that if SE revitalized Campaign (to be more like Bastion) as a place to level from 30-75+ that the entire problem of leeching would dissolve as that would be an ideal alternative if you couldn't acquire the resources to leech.

Right now if you can't leech a job you're stuck doing FoV/GoV to the moon or begging people to EXP.

[Chocobits]

Im not against leeching.

What I am against is the fact that leeching has completely killed off any other alternative to partying. You're either soloing, getting the rare EXP party or doing leeching.

I posted in another thread that if SE revitalized Campaign (to be more like Bastion) as a place to level from 30-75+ that the entire problem of leeching would dissolve as that would be an ideal alternative if you couldn't acquire the resources to leech.

Right now if you can't leech a job you're stuck doing FoV/GoV to the moon or begging people to EXP.

Right right. The first part was a response to you. The rest was anti-Akujima sentiment.

I would love to see Exp-Reborn implemented. To the extent that it's comparable to Abyssea so that we can be done with the leeching drama. As much as I personally enjoy being able to level a job, it is tedious, boring and completely without any type of challenge or stimulation. When I leveled SMN, until I learned Cure IV, the only macro I had for the job was /item "Forbidden Key" <t>

It's a terrible way to have to level a job. And you end up being 90 with the magic/combat skill of.. a lvl 30, if that.

Not that you'd be capping skills outside of Abyssea if exp was adjusted to rival Abyssea... UNLESS we also got skillups as a reward for finishing tab pages! THAT would be great and relieve us of the tedious process of skilling up after we ding 90.

So, raising the Abyssea cap does nothing to fix a problem that has existed for 9 years. EXP sucks. People that make threads like this or agree to them just want others to relive the pointless suffering we all endured. I'm not so bitter that I'd put anyone through that needlessly. Even if I got all my jobs to 90 and was no longer affected by whatever nerfs SE could implement, I wouldn't harp about the evils of Abyssea leveling.

*edit*

And by the way. After we implement the minimum level increase for Abyssea entrance, we ARE rolling back the levels of EVERYONE who exp'd that way right? It's only fair if we're going to deny future "abuse" of the Abyssea leveling system that everyone who leveled that way will be forced to go back and re-level their jobs the "old way".

[Romanova]

I agree completely with choco. I have zero issues with them either creating other ways to xp, or making old ways appealing enough that people do it.

I do have complete issue with people wanting a choice taken away out of bitterness/selfishness.

[HFX7686]

I like leeching. Don't remove it.

If you don't like it, don't do it. And don't play with people do.

I don't know why this simple solution is not used by these people who dislike it.

[Olor]

I agree completely with choco. I have zero issues with them either creating other ways to xp, or making old ways appealing enough that people do it.

I do have complete issue with people wanting a choice taken away out of bitterness/selfishness.

Agreed here.

My only problem with Abyssea leeching (other than it being boring) is that I can't do it! Which is why I would like to see exp outside of Abyssea be more comparable. Yeah, some people have 500K gil laying around they can use to pay for a leech spot - others, like myself, just re-rolled a couple months ago and can barely afford to stay decently geared enough to solo without peril.

If people want to leech, I don't care - what I do care about is the fact that new/re-rolling players will quit if they have to go through the horrible grind I've been faced with. It is that simple. It is also hilarious to see people in my thread about leveling 65+ outside of Aby. tell me that 6-8K an hour is "totally fine" and I should stop "QQing" when most of them probably leech 150K an hour... lol

[Malacite]

They really should bump it up to 70+ for a number of reasons:

- Most DD jobs can't even hit anything below 70, even in the Visions areas.
- You level up far too quickly, and then have a massive skill-deficit to make up for.
- You also don't learn the ins and outs of your respective jobs, and thus we wind up with a bunch of people running around at level 90 with no clue how to properly play their roles to the fullest and/or wearing garbage equipment.
- Finally, newer players will just speed through missing all the wonderful content that we used to enjoy way back when.

For those of us like myself who've been playing for a very long time (I started in Dec 2003) it's not a big deal if we burn through to the top - Just one less hassle after 8 years of the old dev team's nonsense. But it robs the newbies of that crucial experience, learning about the game etc. etc. I personally find it takes away from the experience, just racing to 90 ASAP and then clearing all the story with little to no trouble as a result.

There's no rush, it's not a race here folks - the newbies should slow it down a bit and actually enjoy the game. Otherwise you might get burned out on it very quickly.

[Neisan_Quetz]

They really should bump it up to 70+ for a number of reasons:

- Most DD jobs can't even hit anything below 70, even in the Visions areas.
- You level up far too quickly, and then have a massive skill-deficit to make up for.
- You also don't learn the ins and outs of your respective jobs, and thus we wind up with a bunch of people running around at level 90 with no clue how to properly play their roles to the fullest and/or wearing garbage equipment.
- Finally, newer players will just speed through missing all the wonderful content that we used to enjoy way back when.

For those of us like myself who've been playing for a very long time (I started in Dec 2003) it's not a big deal if we burn through to the top - Just one less hassle after 8 years of the old dev team's nonsense. But it robs the newbies of that crucial experience, learning about the game etc. etc. I personally find it takes away from the experience, just racing to 90 ASAP and then clearing all the story with little to no trouble as a result.

There's no rush, it's not a race here folks - the newbies should slow it down a bit and actually enjoy the game. Otherwise you might get burned out on it very quickly.


Fuck it I'll bite.

- mages and bard can still be useful in party settings even at low levels since they can still cure/haste/march/etc. even below level 70.
- Skilling up isn't hard
-You wouldn't have learned that in an exp pt in the first place, since an exp pt teaches you how to exp. Most jobs aren't that hard to figure out anyway, maybe Thf and Pup if you're completely inept.
- They aren't missing as much wonderful content as you somehow think they are.

[Leonlionheart]

Fuck it I'll bite.

- mages and bard can still be useful in party settings even at low levels since they can still cure/haste/march/etc. even below level 70.
- Skilling up isn't hard
-You wouldn't have learned that in an exp pt in the first place, since an exp pt teaches you how to exp. Most jobs aren't that hard to figure out anyway, maybe Thf and Pup if you're completely inept.
- They aren't missing as much wonderful content as you somehow think they are.

Like'd!

But seriously no one listens to this type of reasoning because no one listens to reason.

[JackDaniels]

And the game will slowly dwindle down to it's inevitable end when people get to 99 and no new people are joining. The forums will be the same as they are now, filled with complaints that there is nothing to do, why no new content, why no new areas, why this, why that, can you sell me in-game content for all the gear/jobs I need to get to 99 in 1 day. FFXI is but a passing moment in the bigger picture. Enjoy the moment, regardless of your opinions.


This

/closethread

[Chocobits]

They really should bump it up to 70+ for a number of reasons:

- Most DD jobs can't even hit anything below 70, even in the Visions areas.
- You level up far too quickly, and then have a massive skill-deficit to make up for.
- You also don't learn the ins and outs of your respective jobs, and thus we wind up with a bunch of people running around at level 90 with no clue how to properly play their roles to the fullest and/or wearing garbage equipment.
- Finally, newer players will just speed through missing all the wonderful content that we used to enjoy way back when.

For those of us like myself who've been playing for a very long time (I started in Dec 2003) it's not a big deal if we burn through to the top - Just one less hassle after 8 years of the old dev team's nonsense. But it robs the newbies of that crucial experience, learning about the game etc. etc. I personally find it takes away from the experience, just racing to 90 ASAP and then clearing all the story with little to no trouble as a result.

There's no rush, it's not a race here folks - the newbies should slow it down a bit and actually enjoy the game. Otherwise you might get burned out on it very quickly.

Most of this indicates that you haven't actually read much in this thread at all, or you would have realized what you're spewing has been covered and largely debased.


- Most DD jobs can't even hit anything below 70, even in the Visions areas.Which is an argument for raising the exp obtainable outside Abyssea more than an Abyssea entrance level argument.

- You level up far too quickly, and then have a massive skill-deficit to make up for.Which is an argument for adjusting the way people obtain skillups, not for changing the Abyssea entrance level.

- You also don't learn the ins and outs of your respective jobs, and thus we wind up with a bunch of people running around at level 90 with no clue how to properly play their roles to the fullest and/or wearing garbage equipment.You don't learn the ins and outs of hardly any job by exping. The people that try to apply the skills they learned through exp parties to endgame mechanics are the ones we call "nubs".

- Finally, newer players will just speed through missing all the wonderful content that we used to enjoy way back when.None of us enjoyed the fact that 5-6k/hr was a "good" party way back when. Nobody ever did Garrison/Eco Warrior, or any other events that level capped you. Nobody enjoyed spending thousands of gil on gear that you only wore for a few levels. All missions that were level capped are no longer capped. There's no reason to dawdle at low levels. All content that was enjoyable at a low level is as enjoyable or moreso at 90. And since there's a plethora of content available at 75+ which IS fun, mildly challenging or rewarding, then it pretty much IS a race to 90. And if people are getting burnt out speeding through the game, there's little that can be done about it. That's the direction the game has been heading for a couple years now. SE decided instant gratification > reward for hard work, to appeal to casual players.

So to recap, adjusting Abyssea entrance level doesn't "fix" the average player skill of the playerbase, increase level of enjoyment of the game for anyone, or provide any benefit to anyone except the whiners that just hate on leeching as a principle. Terrible idea is terrible, please realize that. What's "wrong" with the game requires much more work to "fix", and this suggestion doesn't even begin to address the "real" issues, and the devs have decided that anything that requires work gets a canned response that "it would require a lot of work". Plus, I'm sure PS2 limitations play into the minimum entrance level somehow. Not enough RAM to adjust it to 75+ minimum level.

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]

[Greatguardian]

I'm still surprised this thread made it past page 2, considering this topic has been beaten to death so many times on these forums. I guess the mods just didn't want to necro-bump the month+ old threads that already rehashed this junk over and over, and I can't really blame them.

For the record though, FFXI is not anywhere close to dying of "lack of new content". If someone is too inept to handle the new content we're getting, that's one thing. But there is plenty of new stuff coming in, at a much greater rate than the game has seen in a very long time. It took 3 years to finish WotG. FFXI Development has sped up, not slowed down.

People can't complain about nothing to do. They complain about "Nothing to do besides X, Y, and Z". Or, they complain about "Nothing to do solo because friends suck and MMOs should be designed as one-player games". Dislike Abyssea? Think it's too easy? Too braindead? Think anyone can do it? Obviously that means you've mastered it, right? You have full sets of AF3+2 and an Empyrean 85 minimum for all your DDs, right? I mean they only take like a day to get after all.

How many people complaining about Abyssea actually succeed at the content? How many NMs have they killed without brews? How many Empyreans do they and their friends have? AF3+2 sets? If it's so easy, go get the best stuff and then complain about the lack of challenge.

But I don't see that. What I've seen are people who have never even set foot in an Abyssea zone (true story) ranting and raving about how easy it is and how it devalues everything pre-80. What I've seen are shout-tier people in Aurore/Teal/Perle complaining about how everything is easy mode after they wipe to Orthrus with 18 people (true story). What I've seen are people who brew Resheph of all things, with an Alliance, complain about how brews make everything cheap (true story).

Let those who can say they have mastered the content be the ones to say it's too easy/cheap/dull. Abyssea is the place to get the best armor/weapons in the game right now, so there's really no excuse for any competent player to not do Abyssea.

As for EXP, I really have to say that I do not give a flying banana. Herp derp no one is a special snowflake for having level 75+ jobs any more. I'll be sure to get a band-aid for your easily bruised ego while I'm out attempting to care.

Edit: Blueberry

[Malacite]

I wasn't referring to the old EXP, which was slow and horrendous but more of just exploring the game and doing missions etc.

There's more to the game @ lower levels than just EXP.

[Romanova]

I wasn't referring to the old EXP, which was slow and horrendous but more of just exploring the game and doing missions etc.

you can't do missions/explore at 90? What does leveling in abyssea do to stop you from doing those?

[Malacite]

It just detracts from the game, to me, breezing through at 90 effortlessly. CoP was probably one of the best things the old dev team did, and they ruined it when they removed the caps.

I understand why they did it, but I still don't agree with it. It's hard to describe really.

[Romanova]

but see, that is pure selfishness. Because you enjoyed it you think people should be forced into doing it the way you did it?

For many, CoP was a huge headache. Just because we sffered through it doesn't mean others have to if they choose not to.

They didn't change any of the fights so people can still fight them at 40, 50, etc. But now they have the choice.

[Chocobits]

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]

And seriously, anything that can or might have come up is a rehash of what's already been said, and subsequently pwned by what I wrote. Everyone's gimpy feelings aside, the idea of raising min entrance lvl is butthurt and people forcing their opinions on everyone else, not to mention a terrible idea that glosses over the real problems the game has.

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]

[Panthera]

RPG = role-playing game, not leveling role playing game. You are adding rules to a term that doesn't need rules, just to fit your arguement.

Every game in the main Final Fantasy canon entails leveling up in some form, as do Advanced Dungeons and Dragons, Ultima, Xenosaga, and the list just goes on and on. So yes, though RPG literally means Role Playing Game, leveling is an implicit part, as are other conventions, that they could just as well be synonymous. Even if you could name a few examples of RPGs that don't entail leveling in some way, shape or form--and I dare you to try--leveling up remains a part of this game, FFXI, structuring many activities from jobs to crafting.


None of it is "dishonest" because they aren't doing it in secret.

Dishonest does not mean "done in secret." It means you've falsely represented yourself, and I've already explained how leeching does that.


As other said, bad players will be bad. I remember back in the day there was a huge stigma against bought accounts saying "how on earth can they be any good if they haven't leveled it?!" But overtime as I met people will bought accounts, I came to a shocking discovery....ffxi is not that hard. I've met many of people who've leeched their jobs. You are stereo-typing them, with no reason.

Yes, less intelligent, stubborn players cannot and will not learn, but smart players will learn as they go. They may pick up on things quickly. But it's just as hyperbolic to suggest that they know anything and everything automatically as it is trite but true to say that research goes a long way, but it's no substitute for "been there, done that" experience. That said, I'd rather have them learn on exp mobs than the final zone boss. Thus, leeching cheats the players themselves as well. That much is their own choice, but as no player in an MMO exists in a vacuum, it affects those that need to trust their judgement


And lol at your term "honestly earned". By your definition, I guess so. But what they're doing is just as honest imo because they are not doing anything against SE.

These are not "my" terms or definitions, but merely literally what the words mean. "Loling" at my rebuttal proves nothing other than that you are not taking the discussion seriously, which is detrimental to your own side. You would seem unable to defend your position as you merely repeating what you've already said, which normally signifies that the discussion is no longer productive, and therefore the conversation is quite over. Further, your lack of real effort into the discussion and name calling makes one wonder if you might be just trolling.


1. this team is different than the old team, referring to old capped areas when this current team has been lifting caps left and right, makes zero sense.

No, you don't have your facts straight. What the new team has done is lifted level caps in COP-middle level areas, whose primary focus were missions and various quests. These areas never forbid low level players. End game areas, on the other hand, still forbid low level players. Why Abyssea does not remains a mystery.


2. I have seen interviews where SE has said in the past they like it when people come up with creative ways to level. In particular I remember this was in reference to nin's becoming tanks, and much later to blms soloing wamouras. So this is why I believe they have nothing against either this or smn burn, because it is still within the game mechanics and you aren't using 3rd party tools to achieve it. And considering smn burns were never stopped, I have to believe this
current team is the same way.

That SE has specifically approved of soloing wamouras or beastmen-beastmaster pets (not that you've actually quoted SE directly anyway) does not mean they've specifically approved of nor encouraged leeching. In other words, you're trying to say that because they approve of "A" they approve of "B" when they never said they approved of "B". That they allow Astral Flow Burns does not mean they approve of it, it means they just allow it. Approval and allowance are not the same thing. Similarly, that SE currently allows leeching does not mean they approve of it. They may in fact disapprove of it, but they must prioritize what they buff, and nerf.

Even if they did, that doesn't make it a good thing. That doesn't mean that leeches take up spaces that level 75+ players could have, that doesn't mean that FFXI won't last as long for it, and that doesn't mean it's a dishonest means to greedy ends.

I'd like to point that one minute say, that was the old team, this is the new team. Then you say, the new team is the same way as the old team.


You fail at arguing by insisting X will happen just because you want it to happen, which further proves how selfish you are being and only care about your own accomplishments in a video game.

No, what I said was that there is a precedence for it and so therefore it might, not "it will happen just because I want it to happen." And that doesn't make selfish either. As a matter of fact, I'm known for helping people level up. But I do insist that they actively participate in the battle in a away specfic to their job, or in a way that their job is capable of supporting. What I don't do is whip out my Summoner and let them just sit there like a lump on a log every time they want to collect more gear. I have even created alliances just so friends could level up, but first, they were at least 65+ iirc, and secondly, they had to perform keymaster services. They were the only person that was allowed to be keymaster; I didn't waste party slots with a veritable army keymasters. And finally, they had to at least be on keymaster duty rather than stand around and rack up exp from OPs, which is my primary bete noir. You don't know me, and you don't have the right to make personal accusations.


fine then have it your way, you are either a completely sore loser, or a sore winner. None of this effects you outside of your pride getting hurt that other people did it easier. I call that sore no matter what. ...I'd like to point out again, I have only leeched once, and that was because 4 years ago I made the stupid decision that I wanted to dual box characters and had a mage toon and a melee toon. I hate dual boxing. So, I'm working towards consolidating all my classes onto one character. I've already done rdm, I didn't care about leeching it back up.

One, this isn't personal. It's not about you; you sound defensive, as if you yourself think I've caught with your hand in the cookie jar. And it isn't bout me, either. There's no reason for name calling, such as selfish, sore loser, etc. If by saying leeching is cheating and that therefore you are cheating by implication, that is one thing, but it isn't a direct personal insult to you and you alone, as opposed to every other player that does it. It isn't personal, don't make it that way. It's a debate on which we sit on opposite sides of the fence, not a vendetta.

Two, it's more accurate to say I'm unhappy about people getting to level 90 without doing a darn thing based on my effort so that my having a level 90 doesn't mean anything. Would it not then be fair to say you're unhappy about the possibility of it being taken away? or did you prefer "sore?"


And again, I've been doing just fine getting regular parties outside of abysea. People have the choice. And I like choices. If you don't like leeching don't do it, ...don't get on a high horse and try to shut it down for others.

I'm all for choices as well. Solo Wamouras or pets, do MMM as opposed to traditional camps, level sync down as far as you want as opposed to partying at your own level. What I'm against is the erosion of accomplishments. This game is about accomplishments and feeling good about making those accomplishments. If people commonly, publically, and routinely plagarize their way through Master's and PhD's, it takes a lot away from from people who worked very hard, and I'm sorry you just can't understand that. So yes, it is my pride; I'm proud of my character "in a video game", as you've often and so perceptively pointed out, and my pride matters to me, as it does to everyone else who slashed, hacked, and burned their way through thousands of mobs to get to where they are today. And if someone thinks they can take that way, I will "get up on a high horse" and point out every reason why people shouldn't be doing it. This is a forum, a place where we can discuss and debate what should and should not be changed. So you're perfectly welcome to "get up on a high horse" and explain why you should get something for nothing.

[Chocobits]

A bunch of boring stuff that continues to beat the dead horse and is now completely off topic...
I did not see anything about your muffin of preference in that miniature novel of a post. Way too much thought and energy placed into the dead horse. So what's your muffin of choice?

*edit*


This is a forum, a place where we can discuss and debate
No. Just no. A forum is a place to discuss and exchange ideas. You and others with an OCD need to feel correct add the debate part. I like how you didn't quote any of my reasons why changing the entrance level reqs were wrong and dumb. That means my reasoning must be irrefutable and you need to fall back on the arguments of others that are easier to pick apart. Unless you provide your muffin selection of choice, you have nothing worthwhile to contribute to this thread. I bid you good day sir.

[Akujima]

I'm all for choices as well. Solo Wamouras or pets, do MMM as opposed to traditional camps, level sync down as far as you want as opposed to partying at your own level. What I'm against is the erosion of accomplishments. This game is about accomplishments and feeling good about making those accomplishments. If people commonly, publically, and routinely plagarize their way through Master's and PhD's, it takes a lot away from from people who worked very hard, and I'm sorry you just can't understand that. So yes, it is my pride; I'm proud of my character "in a video game", as you've often and so perceptively pointed out, and my pride matters to me, as it does to everyone else who slashed, hacked, and burned their way through thousands of mobs to get to where they are today. And if someone thinks they can take that way, I will "get up on a high horse" and point out every reason why people shouldn't be doing it. This is a forum, a place where we can discuss and debate what should and should not be changed. So you're perfectly welcome to "get up on a high horse" and explain why you should get something for nothing.


*Knock, Knock, Knock*

The Judge has Spoken, Sentence Passed, Case Closed.


Way to slam the hammer down Panthera.
Uplifting Post.

[Chocobits]

*Knock, Knock, Knock*

The Judge has Spoken, Sentence Passed, Case Closed.


Way to slam the hammer down Panthera.
Uplifting Post.

What does plagiarism have to do with leeching? Plagiarism is passing off someone's work as your own. What about leveling to 90 in the current system is work? Why do you think xp needs a hard cap up until a certain level, where it can then skyrocket? What part of being 75+ entitles you to faster exp? I assume you're grinding it out the old way 75+ too so as not to be hypocritical.

Either way though, dead horse. The judge has spoken. He called a doctor. The doctor pronounced the horse dead at the scene. So what's your muffin of choice Akujima?

[Akujima]

What does plagiarism have to do with leeching? Plagiarism is passing off someone's work as your own.

Yea exactly. You standing around doing nothing in an Abyssea PT, while some other Godly Geared players farm EXP and do the work for you, so that you can call yourself Lv90 and tell everyone YOU leveled up to 90, when in fact someone else Leveled you up to 90.

[Chocobits]

You missed the part where I said "What about leveling to 90 in the current system is work?"

Also, godly gear? I dunno what parties you've been joining. The majority of parties I start/join are people in 5/5 Perle or Aurore, half of those are afk at any given time, the ones that aren't are wiping to dolls because the mages are afraid to stun/sleep for fear that 1 of their actions on a mob will pull hate from the DD skilling up staff/working on trial weapons.

What part of 90 is an accomplishment that you need to feel proud of? What part of being 1 of 18 idiots bashing a mob or curing the bashers is anything you would need or want to brag about? Leeches (doing their job) serve as an important part of a group by letting the DD do their thing without having to concentrate on chests. It's boring, thankless work that is slower than it needs to be because of all the gimp DD. I haven't averaged over 110k/hr in 5 of my last 7 DOM OPs parties. I am to the point where I will only join regular parties that aren't obsessed with turning in pages.

Also, I've been playing this game for 7 years. I think I have it down now, so I don't need someone else telling me that I "didn't learn my job" by leeching. Anything I don't know can be covered by asking a handful of questions after the fact. If anything, my play skill has gone UP since Abyssea, since I have had the opportunity to level jobs like SMN and RDM that I NEVER would have touched otherwise.

Also, you didn't answer the question about what about being level 75+ entitles you to more exp/hour?

Your arguments/concerns are silly, trivial, and are shared by a select few close-minded individuals who think time sink=challenging/fun/educational, and serve no purpose other than to try to impose your views on others.

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]

[Leonlionheart]

Yea exactly. You standing around doing nothing in an Abyssea PT, while some other Godly Geared players farm EXP and do the work for you, so that you can call yourself Lv90 and tell everyone YOU leveled up to 90, when in fact someone else Leveled you up to 90.

You're really over dramatizing this. I can't believe this discussion is still going on.

If SE was going to change it, they would have already.

[hiko]

I wasn't referring to the old EXP, which was slow and horrendous but more of just exploring the game and doing missions etc.

There's more to the game @ lower levels than just EXP.

and abyssea low cap have nothing to do with people exploring zones and doing missions


It just detracts from the game, to me, breezing through at 90 effortlessly. CoP was probably one of the best things the old dev team did, and they ruined it when they removed the caps.

I understand why they did it, but I still don't agree with it. It's hard to describe really.
same than previous quote




Yes, less intelligent, stubborn players cannot and will not learn, but smart players will learn as they go. They may pick up on things quickly. But it's just as hyperbolic to suggest that they know anything and everything automatically as it is trite but true to say that research goes a long way, but it's no substitute for "been there, done that" experience. That said, I'd rather have them learn on exp mobs than the final zone boss. Thus, leeching cheats the players themselves as well. That much is their own choice, but as no player in an MMO exists in a vacuum, it affects those that need to trust their judgement

the smart player will learn a lot more about how to play his job in few days of training on aby NMs (different ones,not brewing) will learn a lot more effithan 3month of stupid xp monsters (even if he sux on the first fight)






know me, and you don't have the right to make personal accusations.


I'm all for choices as well. Solo Wamouras or pets, do MMM as opposed to traditional camps, level sync down as far as you want as opposed to partying at your own level. What I'm against is the erosion of accomplishments. This game is about accomplishments and feeling good about making those accomplishments. If people commonly, publically, and routinely plagarize their way through Master's and PhD's, it takes a lot away from from people who worked very hard, and I'm sorry you just can't understand that. So yes, it is my pride; I'm proud of my character "in a video game", as you've often and so perceptively pointed out, and my pride matters to me, as it does to everyone else who slashed, hacked, and burned their way through thousands of mobs to get to where they are today. And if someone thinks they can take that way, I will "get up on a high horse" and point out every reason why people shouldn't be doing it. This is a forum, a place where we can discuss and debate what should and should not be changed. So you're perfectly welcome to "get up on a high horse" and explain why you should get something for nothing.


I haven't consider getting a job @75 an accomplishment since colibri burn exist unless it was your first job (you did the lol LBs) a 6 year old could grind xp to 75 ( I know people who lvled some of their job by letting their children play them)
IMO getting another job at 75(now 90) was just a (boring time sink) mean to do content in a different way (not always being the same job)

you can get satisfaction getting your lvl75 outside abyssea , you can even lvl it to 90 outside abyssea if you want (that might be worth being considered an accomplishment)



Yea exactly. You standing around doing nothing in an Abyssea PT, while some other Godly Geared players farm EXP and do the work for you, so that you can call yourself Lv90 and tell everyone YOU leveled up to 90, when in fact someone else Leveled you up to 90.

I leech in abyssea pt so that i can tell people "Hey, now i can come This job"
I recently leeched my war, few hour after that leech PT I was able to proc all the RED !! we couldn't proc before, we finished empys faster because we got 100% KI.

[Huevriel]

I like blueberry muffins, and my level 75 jobs. Maybe someday I'll make the jump to 90.

edit:
Having too much fun with gardening, chocobos, pankration, skilling up parrying, meritting and crafting than to level my three level 75 jobs.

[Panthera]

After going through the thread again, I'd like to summarize some of the reasons why some people are OK with leeching.

-Everyone is used to the extremely high exp now, and don't want to go back to slower rates.
-Abyssea leeching is a chance to spend time with friends, who wouldn't spend time elsewhere due to exp rates.
-People who can get Abyssea level exp won't party at slower rates.
-Parties are hard to set up, because there aren't enough seeking for outside areas, because of the difference in exp.
-People level jobs they never would have because of the faster rates.
-In terms of effort vs. payoff, it's unbeatable. You can get 90 by going afk and doing X.

I won't deign to argue against the "merit" of the final reason. But for all except the last reason, it's obvious that every thusly summarized reason to level in Abyssea relates to fast exp; they're all logically sound. However, none of the reasons make leeching not cheating, which is my contention.

What can be had is a compromise. Abyssea should be adjusted, but outside areas should be adjusted as well, as has been suggested. The idea is that outside areas should be adjusted in a way such that they are worthwhile enough to do for those who could do Abyssea if the entry level were adjusted.

I'm not saying that raising the level requirement for Abyssea should be contigent on adjusting outside areas, because the harm caused to the rest of the game are independant of such adjustments, but outside areas should still see adjustments. In other words, here's the logic.

Where A is Abyssea and B are Outside Areas

A harms B.

A should be adjusted because A harms B

A should be adjusted whether B gets adjusted or not, because A harms B.

B should be adjusted to make B almost appealing as A.

The result is that although the two can and will compete, it's not an all or nothing, do A or not at all type of thing.

This way, people can still get to 90 quickly, which is their goal, but still in a way that's specific to or supported by playing their job. No one's accomplishments are taken away, everyone wins. Now, the only possible reason I can see is that people just don't want to play their jobs to get exp. If that's the case...why level it at all?

[TybudX]

You're argument is stupid, and here's why. I have 2 alts. I burned them both to have several level 90 jobs using my main character's BLM. How am I cheating? How am I harming anybody? I am not leeching, I know just how hard it is to do quick pulls and check chests and open the right chests, all while spamming different macros for spells and gear sets so that I don't die.

By your definition, I am a cheater because 'leeching' inside Abyssea is inherently lazy, except I'm sure I'm working harder on all three of my accounts than you have ever worked for one minute inside Abyssea.

Also, your definition of cheating is stupid. If you go by it, you are cheating, since you obviously are not putting in as much effort leveling your jobs as I am. The least you could do is run two accounts at once. Then come talk about leeching being cheating.

[Greatguardian]

If SMN burning is not cheating, in what universe can you claim with a straight face that Abyssea Leeching is?

Keep in mind, the rules of the game are not yours to arbitrarily implement. To cheat at the game is to do something that is against the rules of the game. When no rules of the game are being broken, the use of a mechanic is not cheating.

The rules of the game are set by the Developers and Staff, not by history, tradition, or the player base. They have stated numerous times that Smn burning is not cheating, and have made no statement either way about Abyssea Leeching despite knowing of its existence. Until/Unless it is adjusted by them, or they comment on it, one can only assume that it does not break any rules.

Finally, you and Akujima tend to use a particular backwards argument when dealing with this sort of thing that just drives me crazy. "FFXI is an RPG and thus X, Y, and Z need to be in it". That's not how it works. You are trying to define the game based on its genre when it is the games themselves which define their genre. You do not look at FFXI and say "Well this needs to be an RPG, so the game needs to be this". You look at FFXI and say "Well, in this game you control a single avatar who explores the game world and gains experience points and skills, gaining new abilities over time, so you could call this game an RPG."

FFXI is FFXI. If it changes enough that it "does not deserve the title of RPG any more", they can simply change the genre. Not that your video game purism isn't wholly unappreciated nonetheless.

Also, there is no accomplishment for leveling jobs and never was. People really need to get that through their heads. I've seen level 30 players who were better at their jobs than "Main Job", old-leveled 90s who were too dense to look up even a single shred of credible information in their 7 years of playing the game.

[Panthera]

Also, there is no accomplishment for leveling jobs and never was. People really need to get that through their heads. I've seen level 30 players who were better at their jobs than "Main Job", old-leveled 90s who were too dense to look up even a single shred of credible information in their 7 years of playing the game.

Why is not now, and why wasn't it then? You've just made an assertion without any supporting reasons. Just because you've used a big loud font doesn't mean you're right.

[Greatguardian]

Why is not now, and why wasn't it then? You've just made an assertion without any supporting reasons. Just because you've used a big loud font doesn't mean you're right.

Because any chimpanzee with a keyboard could always get level 75. There is nothing to be proud of, especially post-ToAU where FFXI's inept and incompetent masses blitzed through the leveling system in droves. Server firsts? The first Maat's Cap? There's some accomplishment there, but really, getting level 75 just means you have enough time on your hands and you're competent or persistent enough to hit the same 2 macros repeatedly for hours upon hours on end.

It takes more real effort and skill to get bloody AF3+1 than it does to level a job to 75 outside Abyssea. Even mediocre/crap bots can emulate party-based play, sometimes at a level higher than your average moron can manage.

[Melodicya]

Hello Everyone!

Please remember that purposefully derailing a thread is a violation of the Forum Rules. Please keep all posts on topic. If you are tired of discussing the topic of this thread, please simply refrain from posting further.

You can always find the Forum Guidelines here:

FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines
http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1

Take a moment to review them if you are not familiar with them or the recent additions made to them.

Thank you for your cooperation!

[Chaani]

I don't understand why this topic has yet again come up. Leeching existed well before Abyssea was even a glimmer in anyone's eyes. Pre-Abyssea you'd have a group of 6, more often than not, unless you were partying with friends who were essentially accountable to everyone else for their performance, you'd have the one mage who'd be spamming bio claiming they needed skill-ups while the other mage was furiously curing and out of mp, and then on the melee side you'd have 1 or 2 melees hacking away only to have the full AF (insert random melee job) using a massively under leveled and/or under skilled weapon...most of the times even the wrong weapon class missing the mob save for the accuracy floor.

I'm a few pages late, but missing 80% of the game's content because of Abyssea? What content is being missed here, the mob types? Bats in Garlaige, Colibris in East Ronfaure [s] and ultimately Wajaom Woodlands and Bhaflau Thickets? Is that the content we're talking about here? All of the missions are still for the most part intact with global level cap changes for CoP, quests are unchanged and still available to do (and certainly profitable for certain quests), BCNM fights are still there and capped as they have been (and again some are quite lucrative gil-wise), along with ENMs (another big gil-maker for some fights given martial knives), KSNMs are uncapped. So what is this 80% of the game's content that is being missed when a large part of the content that has remained unchanged is arguably quite profitable Post-Abyssea?

[Romanova]

This game is about accomplishments and feeling good about making those accomplishments.

for you

Not responding to the rest of your post because time and again you've shown your pure selfishness throughout your posts are are just arguing semantics that don't really matter. But try to get this through your head. for you it is about accomplishments. Not for everybody. Nor does it have to be for everybody just because you have pride in a video game. Nor does accomplishment have to = XP. For some it's making out only 1-3 classes and making them the best they can. Or getting a relic, or getting emp weapons, maxing out crafting. Some, just don't care about xp, and they shouldn't have to make that their "accomplishment".


And don't get me wrong, if that's what floats your boat, then more power to you I actually have no problem with you taking pride in your jobs. But when you get so bad you can't see that pride doesn't have to apply to everybody, then I take issue. Not everybody has to play the game under your way. Sticking to what SE allows is good enough for me.

[Meyi]

Sorry for the big post. I wanted to play catch up since I last posted. orz


Current EXP PTs on Lakshmi:

ERon(S): 0
Wajaom: 0
MMM: 0
Cad Mire: 0
Altepa: 1
Thickets: 0


How about Valkurm Dunes, Cape Terrigan, Valley of Sorrows, Kuftal Tunnel, The Boyahda Tree, Ro'Maeve, Ru'Aun Gardens, The Shrine of Ru'Avitau, Mount Zhayolm, Quicksand Caves, Crawler's Nest, Qufim, Bibiki Bay, Labyrinth of Onzozo, Sauromugue Champaign, Korroloka Tunnel, Lower Delkfutt's Tower, Yuhtunga Jungle, Yhoator Jungle, Garliage Citadel, Gustav Tunnel, Aydeewa Subterrane, Mamook, Maze of Shakhrami, King Ranperre's Tomb or Uleguerand Range? Did you check these zones too?

There are so many vast areas for camps that six zones doesn't provide enough information as to whether people are still exp partying or not.



Dude, im glad you've found EXP parties but the reality is that they are something in the past and made so because of rampant Abyssea leeching. For someone logging in, you'd be hard pressed to make a PT because:

A. Most people rather leech.
B. Getting a rep if someone leaves is a nightmare.
C. Old EXP was already bad if you didn't have proper resources.

This has nothing to do with tanks cause gasp, you don't need them in a meleeburn. What this has to do with is the fact that Abyssea has a superior way to level and thus people do not want to go back to horribly slow EXP.

If you're a new player this is doubly so because it means you'll be soloing a majority of the time (no keys to leech, not enough willing to pt cause of leeching) which leads to tedium, frustration and eventually quitting. You can say the same thing existed before Abyssea but at least then you knew others were suffering along side you.

You can keep saying that people aren't "trying" hard enough though.

A. I'm not sure about that. If oldschool exp parties made the same, or almost the same, amount of exp as Abyssea parties, I know I would much rather do oldschool parties.
B. So true. :< Especially as a healer or a tank.
C. It was. And it's still vastly inferior to current Abyssea exp.

While true, we don't need tanks anymore for lots of party playstyles, it was considered a necessity in the past. There were always too many damage dealers, not enough tanks, and not enough healers. I can't count how many parties took an hour or two to form only to break because we couldn't find anyone who could properly fill the last slot we needed.

I don't think new players are completely distraught when starting. I've met a few new people. If they join a decent social linkshell (I know TalesofVesperia is great for this on Bismarck), they can ask to join a party and get some cruor, or, ask linkshell if anyone would like to party the oldschool way.

To be fair, I don't think there are many new players who just happen to stumble across Final Fantasy XI in the store and decide to give it a try because it's a Final Fantasy game. Not anymore, anyway. I think it's safe to say that the majority of new people who are joining (or even returning) are doing so because they have friends on the game. These friends will help their friends catch up.



To be fair, standard exp parties were dying before the advent of Abyssea. Because of a lack of new players. Everyone was meriting. Those that weren't meriting were exping in: Qufim, Eron, Wajaom. Fast forward today. Those that aren't Abyssea leeching are exping in.. Qufim, Eron, Wajaom.

This is true.


But please, remind me again why we're against leeching? Are we against new players leeching because they can't "learn their jobs"? Are we against old players exping jobs they never plan to use? What is the argument exactly, I'm 13 guys what is this?

It's because some people don't appreciate the fact that people can zoom through the levels on a job without actually taking the time to play with it. For example, learning a job ability at level 35, but not knowing what it does when they hit level 90. Also not having the proper gear and feeling cheated out of accomplishment.

And while I can agree with the dissatisfaction of this, I think it's not fair to push morals onto other players, and in the end, I have met enough people who leveled the old way and were still gimps, and I've met enough people who leeched and were one of the best at their jobs I had met. I see nothing wrong with people wanting to get leveling out of the way and enjoy other aspects of the game. A lot of the veterans are tired of exping the old way, and after being spoiled with Abyssea xp/hr, there's no way the majority of us can go back to oldschool exp.

Abyssea is just too convenient. If the other zones became as convenient as Abyssea (replacing/killing easily/xp per hour) then I'd be happy to go back to Conquest and Imperial Standing zones.



Nobody was learning how to play their jobs before Abyssea except those that took the time to look things up on forums. The reasons being:

-Stubbornness (wanting to play a job the way you want to play it regardless of how sucky it is, melee brd go!) "It's MY 13 bucks a month!"

-Ignorance (not knowing or caring that there are better ways to do things)

-"Good" exp parties allowed people to level so fast they didn't have a chance to learn much at all, either as a player or as a character combat/magic skillwise

-Level sync denied pretty much everyone a chance to learn anything about a job 60+ because everyone spent all their time as a lvl 20, 37 or 55

-Experience points parties were NEVER a good way to teach or learn how to play a job, because the only thing exp taught was.. how to exp

True true true. However, I think you missed a couple of points. Yes, some people were stubborn or ignorant, but keep in mind that not all bizarre combinations were bad. I loved bard meleeing in Campaign -- I made the most EXP as BRD/SCH. And in one colibri merit party I was in, we had three bards -- one was pulling, one was double buffing, and one was actually meleeing with a mandau. Was pretty awesome and fun. :)

As for level sync that's almost as new as Abyssea. When I think oldschool parties I think oldschool, like KRT and Sky. But yes, Level sync also robbed people of learning about their job. At least in Abyssea the character isn't synced down and as soon as they get the job ability they can play with it inbetween opening chests.

And yes, experience point parties only taught how to gain exp! It was always interesting to go from the exp world to the end game world or to the solo world. I always preferred soloing and even now find it difficult to figure out strategies when partying with other people. (So frustrating when I sleepga monsters and melees decide to wake them up ><; )


So does this whole thread boil down to oldf**s crying that all their hard work leveling the "old way" (the definition of "old way" being whatever was the commonly practiced way when they were exping, which changes every couple years) were in vain because the same amount of work can be done in days vs months now?

I think that's a part of it but not the biggest idea. I think Akujima was mainly concerned about people not doing other content because they were too busy leeching in Abyssea. But I think it was failed to be realized that the faster someone hits level 90, the sooner they can partake in other content and activities.

Also that not every leech is below level 90.


If we're old-man ranting, how about the fact that Abyssea xp in general, for everyone is TOO fast. Whereas 25k/hr was a pretty dang good pt at one point, 100k/hr in Abyssea is considered a "meh" party. If they had made Abyssea cap out at 50k/hr~ we all still would have thought it was great. People would take 4-5 days of hard work and a lot more cruor to leech to 90 instead of 1-2, and people would still be complaining about the state of things, but a bit less loudly.

So in this post, we (hopefully) realize that:

-Old way sucked
-Exp parties were never a good source for "learning a job"
-People will suck at their jobs no matter how difficult you make it to level up
-People will find a way to leech or circumvent your personal ideas on how exp should be restricted
-Tougher exp does not a more educated playerbase make


All of this I agree with.



Im not against leeching.

What I am against is the fact that leeching has completely killed off any other alternative to partying. You're either soloing, getting the rare EXP party or doing leeching.

Soloing was pretty big pre-level sync too. Beastmaster and Puppetmaster and Summoner would like to say hello! Black Mage had been forced to solo or manaburn once Treasure of Aht Urgan had come around. Any job with Beastmaster sub were amazing at soloing! There's nothing wrong with soloing and it's been around since the game began; it's not an effect of Abyssea.



I posted in another thread that if SE revitalized Campaign (to be more like Bastion) as a place to level from 30-75+ that the entire problem of leeching would dissolve as that would be an ideal alternative if you couldn't acquire the resources to leech.

Then we'd be in the same position we're in now. People would either be forced to do Campaign to get decent EXP (which means they'd have to buy the Wings of the Goddess expansion if they haven't already), and people will be complaining that they can't get normal parties or are tired of Campaign.


I have zero issues with them either creating other ways to xp, or making old ways appealing enough that people do it.

I agree!


They really should bump it up to 70+ for a number of reasons:

- Most DD jobs can't even hit anything below 70, even in the Visions areas.
- You level up far too quickly, and then have a massive skill-deficit to make up for.
- You also don't learn the ins and outs of your respective jobs, and thus we wind up with a bunch of people running around at level 90 with no clue how to properly play their roles to the fullest and/or wearing garbage equipment.
- Finally, newer players will just speed through missing all the wonderful content that we used to enjoy way back when.


Counter-arguments for these points:

- Most mages can cure at all levels. Any job can sub white mage. But DDs are best helping the group by opening the many chests the bigger boys drop. Think of leeches as squires for knights, haha.
- This is true. But good news! Skill ups have been made easier!
- Gimps still existed pre-Abyssea. Just because they took a year and a half to get to 75 didn't mean they actually learned anything along the way. They just learned how to hit the engage button on the red monster brought back to them.
- What content can they not partake in anymore? Genkai are still there. Nation missions still exist. All of the storylines are capable regardless of level. If anything, speeding to 90 to do the content makes it more enjoyable.





This game is about accomplishments and feeling good about making those accomplishments. If people commonly, publically, and routinely plagarize their way through Master's and PhD's, it takes a lot away from from people who worked very hard, and I'm sorry you just can't understand that.

I wasn't aware that pride in a video game should be taken as strongly as eight, expensive years through college. But even then, if people falsified PhDs, they would not be detracting from those who got it the legitimate way; they'd be doing themselves and the world a great disservice by lying. The people who truly put in the hard work would shine above the rest.

The same works in FFXI, if you'd like to continue the comparison. People who put hard work into researching, testing, and crunching numbers will shine out above anyone who didn't put the thought into it. Hitting buttons isn't hard. Even reading FFXIclopedia isn't hard. But at least it shows a dedication and determination to learning about playstyles and in the end, shows a more "skilled" player. Whether a person took five years or five days to reach the highest level doesn't determine if they'll be skilled or not.

And in reality, taking so long to level a job to max level probably means breaks inbetween playing, which possibly means forgetting how to play the job.

[TybudX]

You've just made an assertion without any supporting reasons. Just because you've used a big loud font doesn't mean you're right.

Kind of like your entire argument is an assertion based on thinking that the SE design team was completely unaware that people would bring low level characters into Abyssea to take advantage of a completely new experience points system? That's called an opinion, and yours is based on your misplaced morals, not the realm of fact.

Want to hear a story? Too bad.

Once upon a time there were SMN burns. GMs got called so much that they apologized
to alliance leaders for interrupting them again, and admitted that sometimes they were overwhelmed with reports of people "cheating" by mass pulling mobs in a starter zone. They said that as long as no griefing was being used, there was no break from the ToS by killing mobs in this way.

Fast forward a couple years, and we have new content. This content is filled to the brim with incredibly weak mobs, mobs with almost no defense, no attack, no dangerous AoEs that could potentially kill a character with little to no HPs. The experience system doesn't work like it did in the rest of the game, the way it still does now that content has been added outside of this new content. Instead of chaining exp based on a timer, you built your chain by gaining certain lights, and killing lots and lots of the same type of mob.

Want to know what a rational, thinking human being who is unaffected by a blinding moral rage would take from this? They would think that SE saw all those people who SMN burned wanted a change. They would think that despite all the (butthurt) GM calls by (probably the same) people were an indication that there just weren't enough camps that would fit this new, player discovered way of leveling en mass. So SE specifically built a brand new mechanism into new content that would allow everybody to take advantage of faster leveling.

The Abyssea experience points system seems tailor made for exactly what people are using it for, which is fast exp from 30-90(+). There is evidence everywhere in the design of Abyssea that this is how it was meant to be used. Your 'argument' has one piece of 'evidence', and that is that SE is stupid. See the problem here?

[Akujima]

Want to know what a rational, thinking human being who is unaffected by a blinding moral rage would take from this? They would think that SE saw all those people who SMN burned wanted a change. They would think that despite all the (butthurt) GM calls by (probably the same) people were an indication that there just weren't enough camps that would fit this new, player discovered way of leveling en mass. So SE specifically built a brand new mechanism into new content that would allow everybody to take advantage of faster leveling.

The Abyssea experience points system seems tailor made for exactly what people are using it for, which is fast exp from 30-90(+). There is evidence everywhere in the design of Abyssea that this is how it was meant to be used. Your 'argument' has one piece of 'evidence', and that is that SE is stupid. See the problem here?


And the success of FFXIV proves otherwise?

Nobody is going to doubt that there hasn't been mass negative criticism towards SE's recent titles. And if they continue to to develop FFXI the way they've been developing other SE games, than we will continue to see criticism on these forums.

I played XI at NA release and was pleased with how the game was and the EXP rate at which we leveled up (not that I disagree with how they improved the rates of EXP outside of Abyssea, I just disagree with Abyssea's LvCap Requirement) I quit for 3 years in between, but I did not come back to the game because "I heard it's easy to leech and exp in XI's new expansion area, Abyssea". I came back because I heard of WotG, 2 new jobs being added and a whole new expansion being made. That was my lure.

SMN burn parties can not even be compared to how easy it is to leech in Abyssea. It's quite possible to have 70% of the alliance stand around and do absolutely nothing, while the other 30% gets paid 500k gil each to skyrocket the Lv30's to Lv90 in less than 1 day of playtime. In SMN burn, someone could mess up and wipe the entire PT. You were limited to how many SMN's you had and how many COR's you had, depending if Wild Card even reset Astral Flow or not.

All those people who did SMN burn? No, sorry. A mere fraction of the player base was doing it, not even enough to call it a minority. Most simply saw it as a way to quickly get through the early levels. As for the so called whiners who called GM's about SMN burn parties, well then... It was the whiners fault to point so much attention towards a subject that wasn't as big as people think it was.

World of Warcraft is a hugely successful MMO that doesn't allow for players to skyrocket through to endgame. And you don't hear the WoW player base come out and complain about why/how/when they can just be given a Max Lv character without any work involved.

The simple fact is SE's attempt at appealing to the NA player base of "hardcore casuals" is failing. You may call some of my posts over dramatic, but thinking that players would benefit more by becoming "ultra lazy elitists", they have over dramatized the word "casual" to the point of where it could be considered an insulting assumption to how lazy we actually are.

If implementing ridiculously simple and and lazy ways to LvUp was SE's intent to begin with, doing so may have increased the population of FFXI slightly for the time being, but it's not to be considered a smashing success as many of you make it out to be. Allowing and encouraging hardcore leeching is not the answer to keep the interests of many gamers out there, and it takes the focus away from what actually makes a good MMORPG: Fun, Dynamic and Challenging Gameplay.

[Ravenmore]

While you could do CoP mission when you hit the level cap for them it was still better to wait till you were 75 to start them. That way you could have a couple of jobs for the niche fights and you wouldn't be locked out of statics cause you didn't level up fast enough for the next fight. Still nothing stoping people from doing the story lines like other said its even easier to do them. ZM, CoP, ToAU, nation missions are all still there and thats the real content not exping. Now you might say theres no reason to fight sky gods or Sea gods anymore still doesn't mean you can't do the missions.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Need Dem Divine Might earrings.

[Romanova]

World of Warcraft is a hugely successful MMO that doesn't allow for players to skyrocket through to endgame. And you don't hear the WoW player base come out and complain about why/how/when they can just be given a Max Lv character without any work involved.

Don't you dare ever comment on WoW and what complaining their players do until you've spent at least a good month on their forums.


It's the only thing that gets me to still post on these forums, because this stuff is nothing compared to the bitching that goes on over there.

[Ravenmore]

Almost everything you do in WoW nets you exp, quest, missions, raids all give exp.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Not to mention gold from quests is actually relevant compared to FFXI's gil rewards.

[RaenRyong]

If implementing ridiculously simple and and lazy ways to LvUp was SE's intent to begin with, doing so may have increased the population of FFXI slightly for the time being, but it's not to be considered a smashing success as many of you make it out to be. Allowing and encouraging hardcore leeching is not the answer to keep the interests of many gamers out there, and it takes the focus away from what actually makes a good MMORPG: Fun, Dynamic and Challenging Gameplay.

But the fun, dynamic and challenging gameplay is all found at level cap. By removing the grind to get to level cap, they are actually putting the focus more ON those things.

[Akujima]

Don't you dare ever comment on WoW and what complaining their players do until you've spent at least a good month on their forums.


Then direct me to a post, where WoW players are asking that they should go from Lv20 to Lv85 in less than a single days worth of gameplay.

[Romanova]

Almost everything you do in WoW nets you exp, quest, missions, raids all give exp.

yep and as I said before past 15 you never need to leave the city again.

yet they constantly complain over there.

Also let's not forget if you role a death knight you're automatically lvl 55.

[Kindra]

All this boils down to you want XP the old way? And by old way that is dependent on when you played and how you liked to set up the party, because this changed a lot over the years. One thing that people seem to be missing here is that this is an opinion. Not everyone will agree. Some like it the way it is now some like it the way it was when they first started and some just like it both ways.

No matter how much you try to argue this it still boils down to an Opinion of what you would like more. An old saying that I like to use in this type of thing is "To each their own.". People will do what they want and what you have to say about it really doesn't matter to them. They will do it anyway.

Have fun guys cause in the end this is what matters and how you choose to have that fun it totally up to you in the end. :)

[Romanova]

Then direct me to a post, where WoW players are asking that they should go from Lv20 to Lv85 in less than a single days worth of gameplay.

Not until you actually learn a thing or two about WoW before spouting comments about it...85...lol

[Akujima]

But the fun, dynamic and challenging gameplay is all found at level cap. By removing the grind to get to level cap, they are actually putting the focus more ON those things.

Oh I'm sorry let me correct that last sentence then.

A Variety of Fun, Dynamic and Challenging Gameplay.

FFXI (especially Pre-Abyssea) is Fun to LvUp in. EXP PT's can pick from 6/20 jobs, all that interact differently with eachother. Everyone out there complaining of "grinding all the time" is definately playing the game too much and a needed break/reality check, would do everyone some good.

[Akujima]

Not until you actually learn a thing or two about WoW before spouting comments about it...85...lol

Sorry I haven't played WoW since Burning Crusade and I heard somewhere the new LvCap is 85. If not then it should still be 80.

[Leonlionheart]

Oh I'm sorry let me correct that last sentence then.

A Variety of Fun, Dynamic and Challenging Gameplay.

FFXI (especially Pre-Abyssea) is Fun to LvUp in. EXP PT's can pick from 6/20 jobs, all that interact differently with eachother. Everyone out there complaining of "grinding all the time" is definately playing the game too much and a needed break/reality check, would do everyone some good.

"Fun" is not limited to your personal opinion.

[Romanova]

Sorry I haven't played WoW since Burning Crusade and I heard somewhere the new LvCap is 85. If not then it should still be 80.

the level cap in BC wasn't 80 either...sounds a lot of saving face in here.


[edit] ah my bad I had to remember 'cause I was like wtf. it is 85 I was still thinking wotlk.

bc was 70 though.

my fault totally.

my point however, is when people complained about it being too hard they gave us wotlk, then people complained it was too easy then they gave us cata. Now they are complaining it's too hard again, so something easier is sure to come with the next expansion.

The devs there are just a lot more quickly to change things than here. But yes people complain constantly about all kinds of retarded shit over there, including xp.

[Ravenmore]

Aku you said you left for 3 years, you then didn't go though the hell that was merit camps when people would bring 2 brds 4 dds and have a outside healer just to run people out of camps. AB were bigger then you think, the camps used for ABs were always full of poeple selling leech spots and cor mules placed in bastok.

[Ravenmore]

There was no varity to exping once the player base woke up and seen that targeting IT++ was not a effective way to exp. When you could chain Ts VTs and get more exp over time with more flexable groups not needing blms or whm+rdm. Nothing was change just people got over seening big exp per kill.

[RaenRyong]

Oh I'm sorry let me correct that last sentence then.

A Variety of Fun, Dynamic and Challenging Gameplay.

FFXI (especially Pre-Abyssea) is Fun to LvUp in. EXP PT's can pick from 6/20 jobs, all that interact differently with eachother. Everyone out there complaining of "grinding all the time" is definately playing the game too much and a needed break/reality check, would do everyone some good.

How do exp parties display any kind of variety other than "good" and "bad"? Old EXP:

Crabs. Crabs. Crabs.

Slightly less old but still outdated exp:

Birds. Birds. Birds.

There was precious little variety unless you wanted it to be extremely slow. EXP parties can pick from 20 jobs... really? At least half of those would never be considered unless the party sucks or you are a friend of the leader. Do you imply that stalking Bards and levelling "merit jobs" is a fun kind of gameplay?

Rose-tinted glasses going on here I think.

[rog]

Crabs. Crabs. Crabs. [...]

There was precious little variety unless you wanted it to be extremely slow.what?

123457890

[Akujima]

bc was 70 though.

I know BC was 70cap, I played alot of PvP during Season 2~4 Arena. I quit just as WotLK came out.

Using the argument of "well it's your opinion, so opinions don't really matter to everyone" is hypocritical to say the very least... Because THAT's your opinion! Forums are about hearing peoples opinions about how the game is developing and how it should be developed.

And... Ugh, I'm done posting on these forums for awhile. These little nit-picking arguments are just getting ridiculous.

[RaenRyong]

what?

123457890

Speed relative to the top end experience gaining speed at the time~

[Akujima]

Do you imply that stalking Bards and levelling "merit jobs" is a fun kind of gameplay?


Just because you followed the cookie-cutter way of doing absolutely everything, doesn't mean that there weren't equally as good solutions for EXP camps out there. It's not my fault you can't think of any. And if people asked me in reply "What's your PT setup?". I immediately told them "Nvm, I'll get someone else". Because I can't stand the cookie-cutter attitude that's been growing and growing like wildfire since the games inception.

[Leonlionheart]

How do exp parties display any kind of variety other than "good" and "bad"? Old EXP:

Crabs. Crabs. Crabs.

Slightly less old but still outdated exp:

Birds. Birds. Birds.

There was precious little variety unless you wanted it to be extremely slow. EXP parties can pick from 20 jobs... really? At least half of those would never be considered unless the party sucks or you are a friend of the leader. Do you imply that stalking Bards and levelling "merit jobs" is a fun kind of gameplay?

Rose-tinted glasses going on here I think.

I've said this a dozen times to Akujima in this thread already, but the discussion goes on with no real progression.

[Leonlionheart]

Just because you followed the cookie-cutter way of doing absolutely everything, doesn't mean that there weren't equally as good solutions for EXP camps out there. It's not my fault you can't think of any. And if people asked me in reply "What's your PT setup?". I immediately told them "Nvm, I'll get someone else". Because I can't stand the cookie-cutter attitude that's been growing and growing like wildfire since the games inception.

Actually there was never anything better than SAM SAM WAR BRD COR RDM. You just didn't know it yet.

[Pharaun]

Just because you followed the cookie-cutter way of doing absolutely everything, doesn't mean that there weren't equally as good solutions for EXP camps out there. It's not my fault you can't think of any. And if people asked me in reply "What's your PT setup?". I immediately told them "Nvm, I'll get someone else". Because I can't stand the cookie-cutter attitude that's been growing and growing like wildfire since the games inception.

Oh no, it's so terrible that people actually want to be efficient with their time. It's nice that you want to be a unique special butterfly, but you're trying to force that on everyone else. I have much more interesting things to do with ym time than sitting around grinding out exp, I want to be able to actually do the enjoyable content in this game and not have to spend weeks or months capping my level.

[RaenRyong]

Just because you followed the cookie-cutter way of doing absolutely everything, doesn't mean that there weren't equally as good solutions for EXP camps out there. It's not my fault you can't think of any. And if people asked me in reply "What's your PT setup?". I immediately told them "Nvm, I'll get someone else". Because I can't stand the cookie-cutter attitude that's been growing and growing like wildfire since the games inception.

So tell me just one single method which gained comparable exp and wasn't cookie cutter or SMN burn?

[Pharaun]

You obviously can't understand his genius Raen, it's not about getting comparable exp it's about the suffering and self-flagellation that it should take to reach max level.

[Kindra]

I know BC was 70cap, I played alot of PvP during Season 2~4 Arena. I quit just as WotLK came out.

Using the argument of "well it's your opinion, so opinions don't really matter to everyone" is hypocritical to say the very least... Because THAT's your opinion! Forums are about hearing peoples opinions about how the game is developing and how it should be developed.

And... Ugh, I'm done posting on these forums for awhile. These little nit-picking arguments are just getting ridiculous.

But now you see the point. No one can make you feel any different then you do. Because that is your opinion and no matter what its how you feel and to you it's right.

But you can not make anyone else agree with you because they have a different opinion and feel that they are right.

So in the end its a never ending debate. Its a "Too each their own" situation.

[rog]

Speed relative to the top end experience gaining speed at the time~
Exp, speed and pld/pld mobs do not go togeher.

[RaenRyong]

I agree, but that's how people used to do it :(

[Panthera]

Because any chimpanzee with a keyboard could always get level 75...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but from this, I gather from this rather hypobolic statement that it is your position that getting a 75 was not an accomplishment because it required little effort, wasn't challenging enough to do, and required little intelligence to get done.


...but really, getting level 75 just means you have enough time on your hands and you're competent or persistent enough to hit the same 2 macros repeatedly for hours upon hours on end.

Italics are a lot of exactly why it was an accomplishment. Walking across the front yard is a small accomplishment. Walking across the United States is quite an accomplishment because of the persistance required. Getting exp before they were doubled and before Abyssea was an accomplishment; standing around AFK is not an accomplishment because accomplishment is defined by successful, praise-worthy action, not fruitfulinaction. And while chest leeching might be a small accomplishment in the sense that you performed an action successfully to reach a goal, it isn't an accomplishment in the sense it's anything to brag about for its sheer lack of any difficulty at all; no one will be impressed because chests just don't fight back. In other words, leeching is not an accomplishment because it requires little effort, is too easy to do, and requires little intelligence to get done.

Therefore, by your own definition of why something it not an accomplishment, we can conclude that old experience points were an accomplishment because they 1) required effort 2) had some difficulty, and 3) required some intelligence. Bear in mind, none of these are required for something to be accomplishments by actual definition, but I'll play along. Old parties required effort because good parties, and by extention the levels gained thereby, were praise-worthy because people engaged immediately, lowered the mobs defence with acid bolts and Dia II, payed enough attention to use TP as soon as it was ready, etc. None of this happens automatically; you have to do it to make it happen, hence effort. Bad parties were not accomplishments and blame-worthy because of laziness and a lack of attention paid. Old experience points parties were challenging because successful parties could get higher chains than bad ones, and bad parties and bad players did exist. If there were no challenges, all parties would be equal, and difference between 12k per hour parties and 25k per hours parties would not exist. The challenge existed because a good party met the challenge better than the bad one. Finally, old parties required intelligence. Did you pull with Requiem or Elegy? Did you voke first and engage second? or allow the mob to run amock all over camp while you draw your weapon. Did you pull the mobs in the correct order to ensure the highest chain? Cast Dia II? Old experience points did require intelligence, because there were players out there that could not grasp such nuances that might seem easy to some and take for granted, but inexplicably impossible to others.


...Until/Unless it is adjusted by them, or they comment on it, one can only assume that it does not break any rules....

Finally, you and Akujima tend to use a particular backwards argument when dealing with this sort of thing that just drives me crazy. "FFXI is an RPG and thus X, Y, and Z need to be in it". That's not how it works. You are trying to define the game based on its genre when it is the games themselves which define their genre. You do not look at FFXI and say "Well this needs to be an RPG, so the game needs to be this". You look at FFXI and say "Well, in this game you control a single avatar who explores the game world and gains experience points and skills, gaining new abilities over time, so you could call this game an RPG."

FFXI is FFXI. If it changes enough that it "does not deserve the title of RPG any more", they can simply change the genre. Not that your video game purism isn't wholly unappreciated nonetheless."

You've misrepresented my arguement. I did not say, FFXI is an RPG, therefore everyone has to level, because if they don't, FFXI won't be an RPG anymore. " What I said was that an inherent part of the game is being side-stepped such that "cheaters" and those who play earnestly both arrive at the goal. Just pretend that steroids were legal. Just because they aren't breaking rules doesn't mean that the guy that worked out to get a good physique doesn't think that the guy who took steroids deserves the attention that having a good physique entails; one cheated, the other did not, despite whether it was actually against the rules or not. Why is that so hard to understand? Even if fish-botting were legal, which it's not, doesn't mean that fish-botting doesn't take away from the praise-worthiness of the accomplishment of having level 100 Fishing. If rules don't prohibit cheating, that doesn't mean there's something right with the action, it means there's something wrong with the rules. If stealing were legal, does that make it right? No, that means the laws are wrong.

The fact that leeching side-steps the leveling proccess does not mean that FFXI is no longer an RPG, if I'm getting your contention right. You still have to do a lotskilling up, which cannot be side-stepped. Levels are in some ways, not exclusively now, nothing more than increments of skill levels, measurements of getting stronger as time goes on at a particular task or stat.

I never said leeching broke rules. I said that leeching was cheating. Paradoxically, just because something isn't breaking the rules, doesn't mean it's not "cheating." I've already explained how leeching is cheating and why.

[rog]

I agree, but that's how people used to do it :(
Ya, and it was slower than it could have been.

[Khiinroye]

SE has a key item that commemorates the 'achievement' of doing inane repetitive tasks for excessive amounts of time.

"This certifies that you have gathered no less than ten thousand carp. Please spend your time in a manner more beneficial to society. Your achievement is noteworthy for its utter lack of meaning. With heartfelt disapproval, Gallijaux & Joulet"

[Neisan_Quetz]

Your steroids analogy is horrible, also you don't decide if leeching for exp is legitimate or not; it's already been decided that it is a legit method of gaining exp, just as astralburning is a legit method of gaining exp. Just drop it already.

[Starcade]

And I see the tag idiots are well in force again.

Look, the only reason an L30 would go in to Abyssea would be to be power-levelled. If you ever wanted a great idea for RMT, just watch what they've done with Abyssea in this game. Power-level 1-30, then Abyssea-PL the rest of the way, and you're probably 1-90 in a couple days, if not less.

I still remember that YouTube video of that cheating L75 BLM with ZERO magic skill.

[Starcade]

Your steroids analogy is horrible, also you don't decide if leeching for exp is legitimate or not; it's already been decided that it is a legit method of gaining exp, just as astralburning is a legit method of gaining exp. Just drop it already.

The steroids analogy is quite accurate, and not only describes what they've done with Abyssea 30-75, but also with allowing all sorts of other exploits not on topic in this thread.

It's become the backbone of many people's enjoyment of FFXI, just as steroids are the backbone of what was many people's enjoyment of baseball.

[Akujima]

SE has a key item that commemorates the 'achievement' of doing inane repetitive tasks for excessive amounts of time.


People complain about grinding EXP mobs over and over again to LvUp, but they don't complain about grinding Abyssea NM's over and over again for equipment???

Answer that question for me please.

[Panthera]

You're argument is stupid, and here's why. I have 2 alts. I burned them both to have several level 90 jobs using my main character's BLM. How am I cheating? How am I harming anybody? I am not leeching, I know just how hard it is to do quick pulls and check chests and open the right chests, all while spamming different macros for spells and gear sets so that I don't die.

No. This means you're earnestly gaining exp on one job while cheating on the other, that is, using the word "cheating" to mean to deprive, mislead, evade, or act dishonestly. It might take a great deal of effort to do what you're doing, but that doesn't mean you aren't cheating. As an analogy, just because you're juggling with one hand, which is fine, and stealing with the other doesn't mean you're not cheating. It might take effort, but that's not actually relevant.


By your definition, I am a cheater because 'leeching' inside Abyssea is inherently lazy, except I'm sure I'm working harder on all three of my accounts than you have ever worked for one minute inside Abyssea.

No. I said that "It misleads people that you've been playing your job for 90 levels, when all you've done at best is just open chests." I say it's cheating because it's misleading. you are defining being lazy as a form of cheating. Now, again, just because some people have stronger characters or play multiple characters doesn't mean that less powerful characters or those that only play one character at a time is not a parasitic relationship. It is an unequal symbiotic relationship, but rarely are characters equal, that's just a given. Suggesting that people are cheating because they aren't as strong is without grounds.


Also, your definition of cheating is stupid. If you go by it, you are cheating, since you obviously are not putting in as much effort leveling your jobs as I am. The least you could do is run two accounts at once. Then come talk about leeching being cheating.


No. I am not cheating because I am not depriving, misleading, evading, or acting dishonestly. And no, literally least I can do is run one character at a time. I am in no way obligated to dual box.


Kind of like your entire argument is an assertion based on thinking that the SE design team was completely unaware that people would bring low level characters into Abyssea to take advantage of a completely new experience points system? That's called an opinion, and yours is based on your misplaced morals, not the realm of fact.

No. I did not assume that SE didn't know players wouldn't bring low level characters into the areas. They allow it, but that doesn't mean they approve of it. Even if they do, my assertion is in no way based upon what SE thinks or does. Leeching is cheating by definition. That is not against the rules doesn't mean it isn't cheating. I've already explained this.


Once upon a time there were SMN burns. GMs got called so much that they apologized to alliance leaders for interrupting them again, and admitted that sometimes they were overwhelmed with reports of people "cheating" by mass pulling mobs in a starter zone. They said that as long as no griefing was being used, there was no break from the ToS by killing mobs in this way.

Fast forward a couple years, and we have new content. This content is filled to the brim with incredibly weak mobs, mobs with almost no defense, no attack, no dangerous AoEs that could potentially kill a character with little to no HPs. The experience system doesn't work like it did in the rest of the game, the way it still does now that content has been added outside of this new content. Instead of chaining exp based on a timer, you built your chain by gaining certain lights, and killing lots and lots of the same type of mob.

Want to know what a rational, thinking human being who is unaffected by a blinding moral rage would take from this?

They would think that SE saw all those people who SMN burned wanted a change. ...people were an indication that there just weren't enough camps that would fit this new, player discovered way of leveling en mass.

So SE specifically built a brand new mechanism into new content that would allow everybody to take advantage of faster leveling.

If you've been paying attention, you'd know that my contention with leeching is that it's cheating. I never said that leeching is wrong because it's faster experience points. I never said I was against fast, good exp. Every party I've ever designed as had exactly that in mind. Yes, Abyssea was designed to alleviate camp congestion (which it doesn't competely do), and was designed to make the larger experience points needed to level up not quite so intimidating. I'm all for honestly earning your levels quickly by playing your job. What I'm against is leeching.


The Abyssea experience points system seems tailor made for exactly what people are using it for, which is fast exp from 30-90(+). There is evidence everywhere in the design of Abyssea that this is how it was meant to be used.

Is it your contention that Abyssea was designed so that players could get from 30 to 90 by leeching? No. That's speculating, words into SE's mouth that they never said. Now, I myself speculate that SE allowed lower level players in it's so that they could do smaller fetch quests for small rewards. If they get random seals and what not, great, but that isn't depriving, misleading, evading, or act dishonestly.


Your 'argument' has one piece of 'evidence', and that is that SE is stupid. See the problem here?

No. Again, my arguement that leeching is cheating is no way based upon what SE thinks or does, or the quality, good or bad, of those that thinking and action. I do my own thinking. I don't borrow the weight of authority from others, that's your argument, not mine.

And finally, knowing the difference between right and wrong isn't blinding. It allows us to see. As far as being rational and logical goes, well...

[Starcade]

People complain about grinding EXP mobs over and over again to LvUp, but they don't complain about grinding Abyssea NM's over and over again for equipment???

Answer that question for me please.

He's using the fishing one as a good example of why -- doesn't that also get you the Lu Shang's?

EQ means a lot to many players.

[Chocobits]

Nobody ever answered why level 75+ players are entitled to more exp/hr than everyone else?

Why is it fair to set a minimum level for us to to start taking our steroids?

Also, please list a specific example of the low level content that is being bypassed by leeching?

Corner A says, "We like leeching, it allows us to try out new jobs and our LS's have benefitted from the increase in job variety."

Corner B says, "It's faster than it used to be, and involves nothing more than a chests mini-game, so it must be cheating."

Again, if you do not like leeching, you can opt to build your own Abyssea alliances that do not allow leeches. You can opt to exp the "old way" that you know and are comfortable with. But, and here's the thing:

Why should the rest of the playerbase be confined by YOUR personal views on how jobs NEED to be leveled? This proposal is entirely self serving and doesn't increase the enjoyment of the game for anyone but those that feel a need to place speed bumps on our road to 90. It's an OCD need to control how everyone levels and doesn't benefit the game or the playerbase in any conceivable way.

It's also entirely hypocritical because 75+, you ARE taking your exp steroids, the same as everyone else. Good exp shouldn't be limited to the 2nd half of the game, it should be available throughout the game, or else you create an unbalanced gameplay experience, which is what SE predicted and why they set the minimum level to 30 to begin with.

Mods please please lock this thread before this guy gets enough bandwagoners to reach his like quota.

[Panthera]

Your steroids analogy is horrible,
If I just said, "No yours is!" that doesn't mean it is. However yours is horrible though because you haven't said how and why.


also you don't decide if leeching for exp is legitimate or not; it's already been decided that it is a legit method of gaining exp, just as astralburning is a legit method of gaining exp. Just drop it already.

By all means, correct me if I'm wrong, but what you're trying to say is that whether I think leeching is cheating or not, leeching is not against the rules, therefore it's legitimate. You're right by definition. Legitimate is that which isn't against the rules. But, one more time, just because something is legitimate doesn't mean it isn't cheating. See Warp Whistles. "Cheat mode," so aptly called, is technically allowed by the game, but it is still cheating. Leeching, again so aptly called, is still cheating.

[Akujima]

Your steroids analogy is horrible, also...

If I just said, "No yours is!" that doesn't mean it is. However yours is horrible though because you haven't said how and why.


Look. Panthera's point on Parasitic and Symbiotic relationships is the single most valid point that has been touched in this entire thread. If you don't know anything about those types of relationships, go LvUp and gain some experience to figure out how each of them is different.

Panthera... Thank you for having what counts most: Common Sense.

[Meyi]

You do know what Symbiotic means, right...?