Raise the Minimum Requirement for entering Abyssea to Lv70 or 75

[Greatguardian]

If you had bothered to read my post multiple pages ago you would have seen my supposition that SE most definitely accounted for all forms of leeching when creating the Abyssea exp system. In fact, it is my belief that the entire system was designed around Leeching (though not always the strict level 30 leeching you're referring to).

But I bet you have me on ignore so whatever.

[Panthera]

What does any of that have to do with your skewed views about Abyssea?

I thought that was clear, but I'll explain it.

People who do-nothing leech or keymaster leech are Tings.
People who are actually fight, but use various "enhancements" (that aren't flee or POS hacking etc) are Irgs.
People who insist on fighting crabs in 2011 are PS2 Fanatics. It's OK to Party in Abyssea, just don't leech.
People who flee hack while to get to chests as fast as humanly possible as keymasters are jerks, violating both the rules and the spirit of the event.

[Eeek]

I thought that was clear, but I'll explain it.

People who do-nothing leech or keymaster leech are Tings.
People who are actually fight, but use various "enhancements" (that aren't flee or POS hacking etc) are Irgs.
People who insist on fighting crabs in 2011 are PS2 Fanatics. It's OK to Party in Abyssea, just don't leech.
People who flee hack while to get to chests as fast as humanly possible as keymasters are jerks, violating both the rules and the spirit of the event.

... what did I just read?

[Byrth]

7 Posts, 6 of which were Panthera's. He's taking the new Medallion system to heart.

[Rie]

Clear as mud.

[RaenRyong]

Sir, with all due respect, you don't know what "arbitrary" means, and they aren't "my" definitions of the word "cheating."

You are correct though in that "from the perspective of the game" they aren't cheating, if you say that to mean, against SE's TOS. I never said it was cheating from that perspective.

ar·bi·trar·y/ˈärbiˌtrerē/Adjective
1. Based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system.

Seems pretty accurate?

You are just making up your own definitions. In fact, I shall do the same. It is cheating if you don't exp by leeching in Abyssea because you are not using SE's system of leeching to generate fast exp. Therefore, you are a cheater.

[Sayelle]

Panthera loves to be intentionally obtuse so he can avoid all the real arguments and scream about how everything in this game that doesn't fit his own skewed worldview is cheating.

[HFX7686]

Not true. It's always been possible to leech characters. I used to do it on evil weapons in sky and on colibri at the bird camp. Just barely anyone did because they thought 45-60 exp a kill was bad, while forgetting to realise that level 75 parties kill a lot faster. That's why this debate now surprises me. It's always been possible to leech but no one ever cared before.

In sky, the exp is in many ways incidental. The goal was to pop Despot, or farm something. Getting exp was a bonus. This of course does't apply to Weapon parties, where that was the best exp you could get, and that's why you were doing it.

Now, if someone went afk in a Colibri party, people have complained, and I kicked them. People cared about being leeched off of, and it is cared about now, too.

What has that got to do with anything?

I said that leeching exp has been around for a long time and that low level characters could always get exp in a higher level party. Nothing about the how or why or going AFK.

You have some very arbitrary rules about cheating and leeching and how people are supposed to play the game. It makes me believe you are not just a great troll, but the greatest troll ever.

[Tamoa]

Similarly, Summoner spells are specific to Summoner. You must beat the Primes on Summoner, which only makes sense. The other option doesn't make sense. It "cheats" the spirit of the job. As long as you beat the Prime on another job by participating in the fight, instead of just leeching on your friends, at least that's something. But why not learn Blue Magic fishing up Nebimonites? The Prime fights are more or less difficult; it's solo, and only at level 30, and only with Carby; you learn the spell for yourself. It's an accomplishment on some level. At level 75 with 5 other friends, not so much.



The mini trial avatar fights are capped at level 20. And how about me soloing the majority of the level 60+ avatar fights as 75nin/rdm - not for any of the other rewards but for the ability to summon those avatars. My smn at the time was below level 10, it's such a long time ago I can't even recall the exact level. Did I cheat then? I soloed, I didn't leech, but not as smn. I guess I did cheat huh? I'm sure SE fully intended and expected every summoner to level to at least 60 with only Carby and elemental summons before the mini trials were introduced to the game. Right? Strange how you can actually do those fights on any job then...

I hope everything you claim to be cheating and not cheating, makes sense in your head at least, because I'm quite sure it doesn't make much sense to the majority of the people you're responding to.

[Panthera]

ar·bi·trar·y/ˈärbiˌtrerē/Adjective
1. Based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system
Seems pretty accurate?.


No. You still don't know what arbitrary means. Let me give you an example.

If we're taking the operative word to be "random", then that's could be a coin-toss; no real reason, one is just as good as the other. I did not pick up a coin to decide what the word cheating means.

If we're taking the operative word to be on a "whim," impulsive or irrational thinking, I in no way suddenly decided what the word "cheating" means. I'm using pre-existing terminology.

I will be unable to continue our dialogue further, RaenRyong. I'm sorry.

[Panthera]

7 Posts, 6 of which were Panthera's. He's taking the new Medallion system to heart.
If someone has a worthwhile question or comment, particularly when they're directed at me, do you not think that a reply is appropriate?

[Romanova]

If we're taking the operative word to be on a "whim," impulsive or irrational thinking, I in no way suddenly decided what the word "cheating" means. I'm using pre-existing terminology.

it's not ok for me to use the "f" word because of it's pre-existing terminology. It is irrational to a tea.



Also, I expect a lvl 90 smn to know the lvl caps for the solo fights are 20. You are a cheater because you are dishonest against my expectations.



If someone has a worthwhile question or comment, particularly when they're directed at me, do you not think that a reply is appropriate?

...that's why there's a multi-quote button...

[Ravenmore]

Panthera you still haven't said anything on EXP scroll quest or street sweeper. Also BS SE has had a @#$%ing year to fix leeching in abyssea so all your points are flawed.

[RaenRyong]

No. You still don't know what arbitrary means. Let me give you an example.

If we're taking the operative word to be "random", then that's could be a coin-toss; no real reason, one is just as good as the other. I did not pick up a coin to decide what the word cheating means.

If we're taking the operative word to be on a "whim," impulsive or irrational thinking, I in no way suddenly decided what the word "cheating" means. I'm using pre-existing terminology.

I will be unable to continue our dialogue further, RaenRyong. I'm sorry.

No, you are making this definition on a personal whim because nobody else except lolAkujima possibly agrees with your incredibly irrational definition of cheating. You're using pre-existing terminology unique only to you. It is the definition of arbitrary.

By the way, you are a horrible cheater.

[HFX7686]

If we're taking the operative word to be on a "whim," impulsive or irrational thinking, I in no way suddenly decided what the word "cheating" means. I'm using pre-existing terminology.

What pre-existing terminology? Everything you claim to be cheating has not ever been claimed by SE to be cheating. There is no pre-existence going on here, you're just pulling arbitrary stuff out of your head.

[Sesh]

Was it cheating when you collected the flutes in SMB3 to skip past levels? Even though it was designed and put into the game for different players to enjoy different styles of play? Just wondering?

[Panthera]

The mini trial avatar fights are capped at level 20.

I stand corrected, but that really wasn't the essence of the point I was making.


And how about me soloing the majority of the level 60+ avatar fights as 75nin/rdm - not for any of the other rewards but for the ability to summon those avatars. My smn at the time was below level 10, it's such a long time ago I can't even recall the exact level. Did I cheat then? I soloed, I didn't leech, but not as smn. I guess I did cheat huh? I'm sure SE fully intended and expected every summoner to level to at least 60 with only Carby and elemental summons before the mini trials were introduced to the game. Right? Strange how you can actually do those fights on any job then...

Yes. It is strange that they essentially allow you to learn a spell on a job when you aren't playing it. It's fine if you want to fight Ifrit to get his sword on any job, but learning spells are job specific, or shared across a few jobs. SE should have had us do the level 20 cap fights in the first place.


I hope everything you claim to be cheating and not cheating, makes sense in your head at least, because I'm quite sure it doesn't make much sense to the majority of the people you're responding to.

I am in fact quite convinced that it doesn't make sense to some, but by no means all of them. Someone just looked up arbitrary, and still doesn't understand what arbitrary is.

Similarly, many of the reasons that people give for how leeching isn't cheating, while I understand them, I do not find logically coherent, nor particularly morally informed. Notice I say the reasons, not the people. It isn't personal.

[Sayelle]

I am in fact quite convinced that it doesn't make sense to some, but by no means all of them. Someone just looked up arbitrary, and still doesn't understand what arbitrary is.

Protip: Raen isn't the one who doesn't understand what arbitrary means.

[HFX7686]

I am in fact quite convinced that it doesn't make sense to some, but by no means all of them. Someone just looked up arbitrary, and still doesn't understand what arbitrary is.

Similarly, many of the reasons that people give for how leeching isn't cheating, while I understand them, I do not find logically coherent, nor particularly morally informed. Notice I say the reasons, not the people. It isn't personal.

I do not understand what part of "SE implemented this mechanic of leveling a job from level 30 and up in an alliance of all levels a year ago and has not changed it nor commented on it as cheating" is illogical or immoral.

Also, I think it is quite clearly yourself who is failing to understand the meaning of arbitrary.

[Khiinroye]

Sigh.

arbitrary
–adjective
1. subject to individual will or judgment without restriction; contingent solely upon one's discretion: an arbitrary decision.
2. decided by a judge or arbiter rather than by a law or statute.
3. having unlimited power; uncontrolled or unrestricted by law; despotic; tyrannical: an arbitrary government.

The use in question is #1. No "impulsive or irrational" anywhere near there.

The levelling system is this:
1-a) Get xp.
1-b) XP can be lost if you die.
2-a) Level up when a certain amount of xp is obtained and your level is below your level cap.
2-b) Do not level up if your current level is equal to your level cap.

Any restrictions you choose to place on it are arbitrary restrictions, and cannot be used to define cheating as you are doing.

There is nothing stating how you HAVE to gain the xp. Scrolls have been in the game since the US release (I have no idea if eco warrior was there at the JP release). The purpose of these scrolls is that they provide valuable insight on the world, combat, politics, whatever that your character learns when reading them. They have a job level requirement to ensure that your character is experienced enough to understand the insights on the scroll.

If SE wanted you to be forced to use Dominion Op xp on the job that "did the work", they could have done so. The precedent is there with campaign ops; once you meet the objective, you get the xp, and AN are given on reporting back.

While Campaign Ops are mentioned, many, like Vanguard-X, Crimson Domino, Bridge Too Far, Street Sweeper, Steel Resolve, Magna Cache, Crystal Fist, Iron Anvil, Hawkeye, Slaughterhouse, Prying Eyes, and Cut And Cauterize do not have any combat involved. Crimson Domino sometimes even expressly forbids you to fight anything, while giving you a direct path with no aggro in some zones. Taking part in these is not cheating the leveling system.

Stock and Awe and Materiel Storm can have combat if you farm the requested items, but the NPC says he doesn't care if you farm them or buy them off others, just bring them to him. The point is to have the items available for crafting for the war effort, not how you get them. For those two ops, its always items that can be bought on the AH, usually crafting materials.

Hazardous Materials gives you a Silence, Amnesia, and Gravity effect, so it is more about avoiding combat. Bailey Borer can be done only attacking the Fortilace, while being out of aggro range of anything that will fight back.

Offensive ops, defensive ops, Frozen flame, Deep Cover, Brave Dawn, and Delta Strike are the only ones that definitely involve combat.

Keymasters are contributing; It boosts the time remaining, lights, xp, cruor, temp items, lootpool items, and key item supply of the alliance. You can't claim that buying keys using cruor obtained on another jobs is dishonest, because cruor is the gil of abyssea. It is their money, which is tied to the character, not the job. To claim otherwise is equivalent to claiming that gil earned should only be spendable on the job which earned it.

Xp per kill scales to level, dominion ops scale to level (below 75), and boxes do not scale. If you think the way you can get xp in abyssea is not working as intended, file a bug report here (link). (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/forums/80)

On the issue of uncapped primes avatar fights vs 20 cap prime avatar fights:
In ye olde days, there were no lv 20 cap fights. The only way to flag the fights was to nearly cap fame in the zone (instead of lv 2 or 3, whatever it is for the mini fights). Back in those days, the avatar fights were considered hard; wipes with a full party of 75 were not that uncommon. Summoners complained that it was too hard to get their summons that way, especially if they were trying to level smn as their first main job--they were not high enough level to do the fights, did not have the gil to buy a spot, and were considered gimps with only carbuncle and spirits. To solve this, the mini fights were added, which allowed summoners to do a solo version of the fight at lv 20, with the sole reward being the ability to form a pact with the avatar. I happened to have all 6 prime avatars before the mini-fights were available; that does not mean that I took the easy way out or cheated. You don't "learn a spell" when getting a new summon, you make an agreement with the being to be summoned. The ability to call the agreement into effect requires the summoner job. Spirit pacts are slightly different in that you use a scroll rather than meet with the being in question. As such, they scrolls can only be used by summoners.

[Tamoa]

I am in fact quite convinced that it doesn't make sense to some


The reason it doesn't make sense is that for most people responding to you here (and I'm going to claim that goes for most people playing this game), the word cheat means you are doing something that's against the rules, or in this case, against the ToS.

Anything else you claim to be cheating in this game, is just based on your opinion of what's right and what's wrong. Noone is doing anything wrong - as in breaking any of SE's rules - by leeching a job in Abyssea from level 30. A level 10 summoner isn't breaking any rules by having a level 90 friend do the avatar fights for them.

You might not approve of Abyssea leeching (I don't like that word, especially since most people on a low level job in Abyssea actually do have a specific job to do, they open chests, something which benefits the whole alliance), and you might not approve of a low level summoner having a high level friend kill the avatars for them, and that's fine. But they are not breaking any rules.

[Kimble]

He did answer about Streetsweeper. It is cheating because you are not fighting anything in order to get exp.

So, I guess if he is exping and has to AFK to use the restroom or get some food, he drops party till hes back because you know, if he isnt actively fighting the mob, he is actually cheating. I guess if the ally is fighting more then one mob, he will switch between both mobs to ensure he makes an action on both so he doesnt cheat? lol

[Sesh]

Sigh.

arbitrary
–adjective
1. subject to individual will or judgment without restriction; contingent solely upon one's discretion: an arbitrary decision.
2. decided by a judge or arbiter rather than by a law or statute.
3. having unlimited power; uncontrolled or unrestricted by law; despotic; tyrannical: an arbitrary government.

The use in question is #1. No "impulsive or irrational" anywhere near there.

The levelling system is this:
1-a) Get xp.
1-b) XP can be lost if you die.
2-a) Level up when a certain amount of xp is obtained and your level is below your level cap.
2-b) Do not level up if your current level is equal to your level cap.

Any restrictions you choose to place on it are arbitrary restrictions, and cannot be used to define cheating as you are doing.

There is nothing stating how you HAVE to gain the xp. Scrolls have been in the game since the US release (I have no idea if eco warrior was there at the JP release). The purpose of these scrolls is that they provide valuable insight on the world, combat, politics, whatever that your character learns when reading them. They have a job level requirement to ensure that your character is experienced enough to understand the insights on the scroll.

If SE wanted you to be forced to use Dominion Op xp on the job that "did the work", they could have done so. The precedent is there with campaign ops; once you meet the objective, you get the xp, and AN are given on reporting back.

While Campaign Ops are mentioned, many, like Vanguard-X, Crimson Domino, Bridge Too Far, Street Sweeper, Steel Resolve, Magna Cache, Crystal Fist, Iron Anvil, Hawkeye, Slaughterhouse, Prying Eyes, and Cut And Cauterize do not have any combat involved. Crimson Domino sometimes even expressly forbids you to fight anything, while giving you a direct path with no aggro in some zones. Taking part in these is not cheating the leveling system.

Stock and Awe and Materiel Storm can have combat if you farm the requested items, but the NPC says he doesn't care if you farm them or buy them off others, just bring them to him. The point is to have the items available for crafting for the war effort, not how you get them. For those two ops, its always items that can be bought on the AH, usually crafting materials.

Hazardous Materials gives you a Silence, Amnesia, and Gravity effect, so it is more about avoiding combat. Bailey Borer can be done only attacking the Fortilace, while being out of aggro range of anything that will fight back.

Offensive ops, defensive ops, Frozen flame, Deep Cover, Brave Dawn, and Delta Strike are the only ones that definitely involve combat.

Keymasters are contributing; It boosts the time remaining, lights, xp, cruor, temp items, lootpool items, and key item supply of the alliance. You can't claim that buying keys using cruor obtained on another jobs is dishonest, because cruor is the gil of abyssea. It is their money, which is tied to the character, not the job. To claim otherwise is equivalent to claiming that gil earned should only be spendable on the job which earned it.

Xp per kill scales to level, dominion ops scale to level (below 75), and boxes do not scale. If you think the way you can get xp in abyssea is not working as intended, file a bug report here (link). (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/forums/80)

On the issue of uncapped primes avatar fights vs 20 cap prime avatar fights:
In ye olde days, there were no lv 20 cap fights. The only way to flag the fights was to nearly cap fame in the zone (instead of lv 2 or 3, whatever it is for the mini fights). Back in those days, the avatar fights were considered hard; wipes with a full party of 75 were not that uncommon. Summoners complained that it was too hard to get their summons that way, especially if they were trying to level smn as their first main job--they were not high enough level to do the fights, did not have the gil to buy a spot, and were considered gimps with only carbuncle and spirits. To solve this, the mini fights were added, which allowed summoners to do a solo version of the fight at lv 20, with the sole reward being the ability to form a pact with the avatar. I happened to have all 6 prime avatars before the mini-fights were available; that does not mean that I took the easy way out or cheated. You don't "learn a spell" when getting a new summon, you make an agreement with the being to be summoned. The ability to call the agreement into effect requires the summoner job. Spirit pacts are slightly different in that you use a scroll rather than meet with the being in question. As such, they scrolls can only be used by summoners.

I'm quite sure pan. will ignore this whole statement or just pull out 1 or 2 lines to take out of context to try to sound smart.

[HFX7686]

He did answer about Streetsweeper. It is cheating because you are not fighting anything in order to get exp.

So, I guess if he is exping and has to AFK to use the restroom or get some food, he drops party till hes back because you know, if he isnt actively fighting the mob, he is actually cheating. I guess if the ally is fighting more then one mob, he will switch between both mobs to ensure he makes an action on both so he doesnt cheat? lol

That's a good question.

If your party or alliance kills a mob that you gain exp from but you do not take any actions against or cure any damage or status effects that it inflicts upon your party or alliance members, are you cheating?

I think the answer has to obviously be yes!


In fact, if you are a WHM and never ever fight a mob and simply cure your party members are you cheating because you are not doing any damage to the mob.

[Sesh]

That's a good question.

If your party or alliance kills a mob that you gain exp from but you do not take any actions against or cure any damage or status effects that it inflicts upon your party or alliance members, are you cheating?

I think the answer has to obviously be yes!


In fact, if you are a WHM and never ever fight a mob and simply cure your party members are you cheating because you are not doing any damage to the mob.

This is because Pan. believes that actions are the "currency" of MMOs. Actions of a specific job, a specific quest, or a party. When really TIME is the "currency". The people that hate Abyssea hate it because it takes people less time to do what it took them months or even years to do. They pretty much believe that if you don't spend the amount of time they do, then others are doing it completely wrong. ("cheating")

On the other hand the majority or players with common sense realize that time spent to obtain a goal, is and should be unique to an individual players style. Time is your currency in FFXI, it is what you exchange for your goals. If someone does a quest for an exp scroll and is rewarded with EXP it does not matter what actions it took to get to that goal, it's the time spent to acquire it.

[Aliekber]

What I want to know is, what should players do if they're in an XP party, but they suck. Like, bad. There's one good DD, and he's decked out (Dual-Wielding an Empyrean and a Relic, +2s in all the right places, eating Red Curry, and sending memos like a boss). He's easily parsing 85% of the alliance's damage (and whether or not you want to believe this is possible, it really, really is).

Should the gimpfaces all drop party because leeching is "cheating"? Should they boot the good DD so they can do a higher percentage of the damage, and do a better job "earn"ing their XP?

Would you drop party, Panthera?

[Nacht]

What I want to know is, what should players do if they're in an XP party, but they suck. Like, bad. There's one good DD, and he's decked out (Dual-Wielding an Empyrean and a Relic, +2s in all the right places, eating Red Curry, and sending memos like a boss). He's easily parsing 85% of the alliance's damage (and whether or not you want to believe this is possible, it really, really is).

Should the gimpfaces all drop party because leeching is "cheating"? Should they boot the good DD so they can do a higher percentage of the damage, and do a better job "earn"ing their XP?

Would you drop party, Panthera?

I think a more valid question is what if there are people who are so gimp that they're doing craptastic damage. WS for 0, Crit for 0, 75% miss rate, etc. Should they be kicked? I mean they look like they're contributing, until you look at their damage and realize that they're not doing any.

[scaevola]

A level 30 standing around twiddling his thumbs in an Abyssea party is still marginally more useful than the 5 or so level 75 melee "contributing" by feeding TP with 5-damage hits. The gap between a 90 DD/Nuker with good atma and everybody else is so huge that everyone should knock it off with the sour grapes and admit there's no difference between a level 50 leech and a level 80 with no good atma.

Personally, my favorite thing to do is get on a level 40 job, sub BLM or something, set Atma of Ambition, and declare myself the puller.

[blowfin]

A level 30 standing around twiddling his thumbs in an Abyssea party is still marginally more useful than the 5 or so level 75 melee "contributing" by feeding TP with 5-damage hits.

Competent keymaster over useless DD any day of the week.

Hell they should have just made it a job and allowed us to get skill ups with it. Probably as close as we`re gonna get to that `time mage` people seem to have wanted.

[Ravenmore]

Still waiting panthera. The reason way we can't learn spells on /blu is simple it woulda took SE more work. So is SE cheating since they skiped out on something that already in the game buying a scroll for you sub and using it while having the job subbed. Also whats been said about avaters, There was a time you would get laughed at if you even mention of level SMN if you didn't already have a 75. Please stop acting like you even have a clue of the game or its history. Most of us here on these boards been playing since atleast CoP while some may have came into the game when ToAU/360 was released.

[scaevola]

Competent keymaster over useless DD any day of the week.

Hell they should have just made it a job and allowed us to get skill ups with it. Probably as close as we`re gonna get to that `time mage` people seem to have wanted.

Actually, I'd expand on my original point a bit.

Currently, my most well-developed job is Dancer. I use a modest DD setup; Magian daggers, Charis +1 with a +2 tiara, Twilight belt, etc. It's not exceptional by any means. I usually set RR/GH/SS now that the Crit Bonus Damage cap's been raised.

When I join random pickup xp alliances on DNC, it's not uncommon for me to crit regular dagger swings harder than the weapon skills of half the DDs in the group. This isn't meant as a judgment on people without good atmas or patting myself on the back for being smart enough to set Razed Ruins when I zone in; it's just how Abyssea works. Whether it is good or bad, I can't say, but one thing that is crystal clear is that I can completely mulch any non-NM in Abyssea no matter how leveled in 30 seconds tops. So the question is: how many DDs like me does your Abyssea alliance really need before everyone's content with the XP rolling in? 4? 5? Maybe two or three BLMs for azure?

The point is, I don't need your level 70 dude with no good atma to melee. Hell, I don't need your level 90 dude with no good atma to melee. By all means do so; we all need skillups. But you are not, strictly speaking, contributing by doing maybe a fifth of my damage on a good day. Cry all you want about level 30s in Abyssea but the dynamic of an Abyssea XP alliance is not radically shifted by the presence of a few leeches.


What I DO need when I'm rolling full DD in an Abyssea alliance is targets. If you don't have good atma, you are INFINITELY more useful as a puller than as an actual DD. A full XP alliance is basically wasting its time if it has fewer than three full-time pullers, imo, and I grit my teeth every time I see a reasonably well-geared THF or NIN who, judging from their HP, has clearly spent some time in Abyssea and probably has decent atma relegated to pulling when the three or four people in Scorpion Harnesses could do it just as well.

If I join an Abyssea XP alliance on my main, with its capped XP and merits, I'm doing so for one reason: cruor. It's been my experience that since I can't reliably farm azure on my own, even a mediocre XP party can get me more cruor and TEs than my own meticulous play. In order to maximize my cruor, however, I need mobs. Lots and lots of mobs. Way more than I can get by one guy pulling one bluffalo at a time. Pull for me, level 75 guy, and I will get you all the XP you want on all the jobs you want and thank you for the privilege.

[Ravenmore]

One blu/rdm with C&D and a decent eva build to bring 5 to 6 Dolls back to camp. Don't even need the blm to sleepga them either. Never even have to stop to pull.

[scaevola]

Or you could let that decently-geared BLU work as a DD and spread the most important job in the whole alliance out among a few different people mathematically incapable of contributing any other way.

[Ravenmore]

Why it take them for ever to bring as many mobs back to camp. I also didn't say I would just be pulling. Even not putting any DD atmas on I can still DD better then most. While I round up another 5 mobs the rest of the alli can run and grab another page. I keep busy when I exp its boring any other way

[scaevola]

Even not putting any DD atmas on I can still DD better then most.

Leaving aside for the moment that this statement is Just Not True, if I ever join a full Abyssea alliance where a well-geared and 4-digit-spell dropping BLU is the guy I would have running around grabbing mobs and not punching things 100% of the time, as opposed to the guy doing weapon skills for 50, I'll let you know.

[Ravenmore]

Its not hard to hit 4 digit spells on blu.

[Korpg]

I made it to page 26 of this.

I give up on the rest of the thread, all I see is a few people (Akujima mainly) whining that things aren't his way, and he has to cry about it to the world.

As somebody here said, if you don't like leeching, then don't do it. Let those who do like doing that do it, and enjoy your game in your own way. If somebody tried to pass off as a level 90 with level 30 skills, just toss him out of the party, unless they are a leader, which then you just leave. Leave while they voke the mob though, or have hate, and watch the fun happen.

[Ravenmore]

Korpg you missed the best parts. panthera is better then any comedy.

[Korpg]

Oh man, tell me which pages that it starts, and I'll go read it real quick!

[Ravenmore]

Starts getting good around page 31ish. Just look for thiers post rest is us just pointing out how back wards thier thinking is. Plus s/he likes to quote alot.

[Romanova]

I thought about this, and I realized, you know it doesn't matter what panthera thinks what cheaters are because either way he just proves the point that leeching is ok. Why?

Let's for a moment think that panthera's definition is correct.

I think it's safe to say 100% of the ffxi population are cheaters.

You can't tell me a player has never at least done one of:

1. afked to use the bathroom and the party decided to keep fighting and killed a mob while you were afk.

2. got a xp scroll whether from an escort quest/dynamis/etc. and used it on another job than the one they were on.

3. Did nyzul isle and ran to a teleport while the rest of the party finished off the objective to save on time.

4. Got powerleveled by a bard/rdm/whm while in a 6 member pt.

I can't believe anyone didn't fall under any 4 of those (especially 1).

So basically we're all cheaters.

Which means, cheating doesn't matter because we all do it and SE doesn't do anything about it. You are pointing fingers while being also at fault in some form of "cheating".

Just like "leechers" lessen the "value" of panthera's accomplishments of hitting 90. Having everyone, including panthera, cheat lessens the strength of that word, and makes it not matter.

We're all cheaters, in the same way we are all humans. And because of that, it means that leeching doesn't matter anyway.

[Chocobits]

Guys guys lol. You're feeding the troll. While Akujima actually BELIEVED the tyrannical drivel spewing out of his mouth, Panthera is just trolling. Anybody that has played this game for as long as he has, and managed to get anywhere on a single job, has definitely not been practicing what they preach. Plus, most of you forget that he already said he blocked most of you, so he'll never see your responses. That's how he wins. The best thing to do is to stop responding at all. Or limit your responses to "We like leeching, and you're not a doctor."

We like leeching, and you're not a doctor.

[Ravenmore]

So if s/he can't see ours post that mean we can really make fun of them now.

[Panthera]

What I want to know is, what should players do if they're in an XP party, but they suck. Like, bad. There's one good DD, and he's decked out (Dual-Wielding an Empyrean and a Relic, +2s in all the right places, eating Red Curry, and sending memos like a boss). He's easily parsing 85% of the alliance's damage (and whether or not you want to believe this is possible, it really, really is).

Should the gimpfaces all drop party because leeching is "cheating"? Should they boot the good DD so they can do a higher percentage of the damage, and do a better job "earn"ing their XP?

Would you drop party, Panthera?

Thank you very much for asking, Aliekber.


There are four relationships: mutualistic, commensal, parasitic, and competition.

Competition is a case in which both groups are harmed: two parties in Thickets at the bottom camp. There's not enough mobs to go around for both parties to have (what was) good exp. They're cheating each other out of good exp (never mind who got their first, that they are both there is a competitive relationship).

Parasitic, aka "Leeching" is where one benefits to the detriment of the other. I'll get back to this.

Commensal is where one benefits, and the other isn't helped or harmed. Let's say someone is solo killing the Wivres, and an exp party is partying on the birds. The soloer dies. Assuming the healer has the MP to raise him if he has tons to spare such that he doesn't even need the raise MP, and Raise casts really fast as Rdm main so the time spent isn't a real sacrifice, then the Soloer benefits from the presence of the party, and the party isn't really effected one way or the other. So it's commensal. Not a perfect example, lots of ifs, but you get the idea. This isn't cheating.

Mutualistic is where both individuals concerned benefit. The War/sam hurts the mob, which the healer is unable to do, while the healer keeps the War/sam alive, or buffed, which the War/sam is unable to do. Both get exp. Nothing cheating about this.

Now, back to Parasitism. The Black Rhino is in a factual--if contested--symbiotic relationship with the Oxpecker, a kind of bird. The Bird is protected by the much larger Rhino, and the Oxpecker eats parasites on the Rhino's skin. Now, let us say that there's a bird that mimics the Oxpecker, taking advantage of its protection--but doesn't eat the parasites. The Oxpecker-Mimic takes up the space that a real Oxpecker would have, and if enough do it, no parasites get eaten at all. So, the Oxpecker-Mimic is detrimental to the Black Rhino because the Oxpecker-Mimic prevents a beneficial effect it would get with a real Oxpecker, while the Oxpecker-Mimic still benefits, and is as such, a parasite.

That said, let's go back to the question. If they all dropped and it was just this one guy, damage would drop by 15%, and it would take 15% longer to kill. They aren't contributing much, but they are contributing. This isn't actually leeching, this is a very unbalanced mutualistic relationship[i], in which the effort going out is unequal, but the results coming back in is equal.

Now! Let's assume:...

That the guy who does 85% of the entire damage of the party is the leader.

We assert:...

That it is fair for him to can kick those whom he doesn't feel are contributing enough, when he could get stronger DDs elsewhere, or just not invite him in the first place. Partying is volentary; no one has to party with anyone if they don't want to. By analogy, if it's fair people get fired in real life for underperforming, it's fair to fire someone in the game for underperforming (and by the way, to answer your question more or less, I have kicked many, many people for doing just that. I wouldn't just drop, I'd kick them. And from the way you called them "gimpfaces" I assume you would do the same if you were leader, and I do not condemn you for it).

That said,

We cannot say:...

We should kick people who only do X% of the damage
when
[i]they aren't contributing nearly as much to the fight as the strongest is (mutualism)
when we could get someone who does x+75% damage

and say:...

we shouldn't kick someone who's just chest leeching,
when
they're really not participating at all in the fight (parasitism)
when we could get a bard (or Cor, Smn, Etc) who can do double march, which does contribute to the battle, while at the same time does keymaster duties.

since:...

gimpy DDs actually contribute more to the fight than just chest leeches do

Because...

"Something" > "nothing"

Especially since

The "something" is still at least something--but isn't enough, so they are kicked.

If it's fair to kick them, it's fair not to invite them in the first place.

[Ravenmore]

I really wish I had 20 bucks to blow on D2D version of the game to make a sock so the Doctor could see it.

[Romanova]

I really wish I had 20 bucks to blow on D2D version of the game to make a sock so the Doctor could see it.

I highly doubt he put anyone on ignore, it's just an excuse to not respond. Too bad he doesn't realize that makes him look even worse because he's not defending against extremely valid points.

[Greatguardian]

Keying chests contributes more to a group than Gimp DDs.

AFK people? Contribute about as much as Gimp DDs. Effectively nothing for both of them.

Parsing 0.3% alliance damage? No, I promise you, this particular "something" is not better than nothing. When a Gimp DD consumes more resources (Cures, MP, Attention) than they are able to contribute back to the group (Damage, Kills, Pulls), they have a Negative Impact on the group.

Negative < 0.

[Ravenmore]

Guess your right Roma. Choco more I read it kinda looking like trolling but panthera could have tasted the Kool Aid.

[Sayelle]

Your understanding of what is actually contributing to an abyssea party is sadly lacking. A keymaster will provide far more to a party in terms of exp/cruor from chests and increased gold/silver lights and time extensions than a gimpy DD that can't even break 1k average ws will (and sadly there are a lot of these out there).

You say that a party should just invite a Brd/cor/smn to key chests while doing their job, but since an abyssea party really only needs 6-8 people actually involved in fighting to reach max or near max exp/hr the other people are going to be standing around twiddling there thumbs anyway, so you might as well have one of them be keymaster so the brd just has to focus on songs, or they can DD if they want since Evisceration makes Brd a semi decent DD as long as it's geared properly.

[Sesh]

they're really not participating at all in the fight (parasitism)
when we could get a bard (or Cor, Smn, Etc) who can do double march, which does contribute to the battle, while at the same time does keymaster duties.

since:...

gimpy DDs actually contribute more to the fight than just chest leeches do

Because...

"Something" > "nothing"

Ahh but you're wrong because if nobody keyed the sum total of the exp would be far less than if there is a keyer. When I fell cleave an average of 20 mobs we normally see on average 4 exp chests. So lets say the party kills 500 mobs the keyer has contributed somewhere in the ballpark of 125,000 exp to the party in total. Not to mention Gold/Silver/Ebon lights give the party more bang for their buck in the end. So you could say that easily for the keyer that they raise well over 200k (not to mention cruor) for the party just from exp boxes and gold/ebon alone.

[Aliekber]

gimpy DDs actually contribute more to the fight than just chest leeches do

Because...

"Something" > "nothing".

Keymasters spend their cruor to get me TEs without having to spend mine. That alone makes them worth their weight in gold. A gimpy DD is just a slot that could go to a friend of mine that wants to burn up a new job on. In turn, I'll get to burn up new jobs while they do the bulk of the DD. That's symbiosis, and the gimpy DD denying me that opportunity is harming me in a very real sense.


we could get a bard (or Cor, Smn, Etc) who can do double march, which does contribute to the battle, while at the same time does keymaster duties.

I think I speak for every support role job player when I say "screw you". Support players get to babysit everyone else in events, get next to no thanks for it, and now you want to charge them cruor to join an XP party? Jump off a bridge.

[Khiinroye]

The key leech is also contributing by sucking up the HUGE drain of cruor that it takes to key the chests, rather than forcing that onto someone who is able to contribute in a combat sense. In the 500 chest example, that's 250,000 cruor spent.

If I were brd in an xp alliance, and was told that I'm now responsible for keying chests because someone doesn't like low level keymasters, then that alliance would find that it no longer has a bard.

Edit: I go look at something else before replying and someone else posts the same thing right before me.

[Ravenmore]

Yep thats what i'm sure everyone but the aku and his Akujima town followers would have every one do.

[Panthera]

Sigh.

arbitrary
–adjective
1. subject to individual will or judgment without restriction; contingent solely upon one's discretion: an arbitrary decision.
2. decided by a judge or arbiter rather than by a law or statute.
3. having unlimited power; uncontrolled or unrestricted by law; despotic; tyrannical: an arbitrary government.

I didn't solely decide what the word cheating meant. I didn't have any power, limited or otherwise, to decide what cheating meant. You highlighted the definition, but really don't understand it's application.



The use in question is #1. No "impulsive or irrational" anywhere near there.

There's other definitions you ommitted, which don't apply either.

I have a really difficult time maintaining a conversation with someone when I cannot depend on a common understanding of language. Saying that cheating is breaking the rules is literal, cheating death is figurative. If one cannot grasp a literal meaning, the figurative meaning never stood a chance



Keymasters are contributing...

Indeed, they make sure the bells still ring and whistles still work.



Xp per kill scales to level, dominion ops scale to level (below 75), and boxes do not scale.

They didn't mean for self buffs to work as well in Campaign as they did, so they nerfed it to the point where they'd get so little that it just wasn't worth it. Working better than expected, like 2Handed update when it first came out, and that lasted, right? But Ranger was never over-powered to begin with. As intended.


You don't "learn a spell" when getting a new summon, you make an agreement with the being to be summoned. The ability to call the agreement into effect requires the summoner job.

You don't "get figurative language."


Spirit pacts are slightly different in that you use a scroll rather than meet with the being in question. As such, they scrolls can only be used by summoners.

Different means of acquisition, but both "spells" and both are unique to Summoner. I either both should be by scrolls, or neither. Either every job should "get" the spirit by using the scroll and get Avatars the same way, or no job but Summoner should "get" avatars and scrolls. Having it just some kinda sorta inconsistent way without any real thought, that is arbitrary.

This means that every player who has every fought any mob having unlocked a Blue Mage should "get, acquire, or receive" their spells from any monster while on another job. But we don't really care about the "ideas" of things, as long as we have to do less work.

[Ravenmore]

No SE wanted to do less work thats way you can't learn blu magic for your sub job. The 2hander upadte didn't go on for nearly as long as abyssea. What they did to fix it was not all that drastic 3 str/dex = 2 att/acc. Avaters only get BPs up till the max level you can sub the job with duation BP dmg lessen with the much lower skill that sub offers. Thats also saying we shouldn't have sub jobs at all since we didn't get the spells of JAs from the leveling our main job.

[HFX7686]

What about exp bonus rings, like the Emperor's Band or the Anniversary Ring? Are those cheating as well?

[Panthera]

Ahh but you're wrong because if nobody keyed the sum total of the exp would be far less than if there is a keyer.

Good point. And thanks for disagreeing, but not disagreeing and being disagreeable at the same time. Much obliged.

While going through this, there will be white space and lines. This will done to make stepping through the logic simpler and clearer.

Let's assume something like the opposite of if nobody keyed the sum total of the exp would be far less than if there is a keyer. "

Let's assume

no one fights

and

everyone is a keymaster.

This means that

no chests spawn

because

no one is fighting

because

everyone is a keymaster

therefore

no one gets exp

because

no one is fighting monsters

and

exp chests aren't spawning

because

no one is fighting monsters

because

everyone is a keymaster

therefore

fighters are essential

and

keymasters are beneficial

but

keymasters are not essential, not even to Abyssea.


This assumes there's a "one or the other" situation. Some jobs can fight, but not key at the same time. Some can key, but not fight. Some can key and fight, in the sense of buffing. ... Maybe a ranger with a fast X-bow could pull it off, DDing quickly as possible as often as possible, but still keying. Anyway.


When I fell cleave an average of 20 mobs we normally see on average 4 exp chests. So lets say the party kills 500 mobs the keyer has contributed somewhere in the ballpark of 125,000 exp to the party in total. Not to mention Gold/Silver/Ebon lights give the party more bang for their buck in the end. So you could say that easily for the keyer that they raise well over 200k (not to mention cruor) for the party just from exp boxes and gold/ebon alone.
If a Bard does it, they are making their party fight much faster, contributing to more overall damage. But they can get EXP chests at the same time too, making for even more exp yet. They are contributing to the battle, which is indirectly related to the essential part, but still related not the less, and still doing the bells and whistles part of abyssea.

You do not have to key chests. If everyone can gather quickly and efficiently, people can still kill things for a reasonable amount of time, you know, like 2 hours--as opposed to a 6 hour grind of capping and lights and then capping them for new people and on and on--and still get some exp. And yes, Abyssea is still a grind. It's just a longer grind at once, rather than smaller grinds over a longer period of time.

[Ravenmore]

Panthera how bout you try that one exp party having the brd spend thier keys let me know how it goes.

[Khiinroye]

Panthera will arbitrarily decide that "There's no way I'm going to spend cruor to open chests for you, get a leech" means "I'll gladly do it" since his understanding of language is different from all of ours.

[Sesh]

If a Bard does it, they are making their party fight much faster, contributing to more overall damage. But they can get EXP chests at the same time too, making for even more exp yet. They are contributing to the battle, which is indirectly related to the essential part, but still related not the less, and still doing the bells and whistles part of abyssea.

You are absolutely correct a brd or whoever can do it and overall it would be more efficient. However that isn't the point of it all. The point is that a job is determined by what people want and what they are willing to pay to get for it. The keyer offers cruor to open boxes which in turn supplies the rest of the party with exp/light/whatever. It's not the most efficient way to open the boxes, but in the end it is a useful job that helps the group as a whole.

So if the argument is that a keyer is a leech and is not performing a job that is helping the party (since you basically said they do nothing compared to a crap DD) then you couldn't be more wrong.

In the end though does it really matter? Aby is here to stay as well as leeching/keying w/e. Embrace it. Don't act proud and hold your head up high and act superior to people who leech or get avatars a way you don't agree with. You may not like keyers or what have you, but this is the game we have now and it's not going to change any time soon.

[HFX7686]

keymasters are not essential, not even to Abyssea.

A key leech earns their spot by giving up their cruor for the exp they get through leeching and opening up chests.

Someone has to melee. Someone has to cure the melee. Someone has to open the chests. Each is important.

I would not want a bard who is singing, buffing, pulling, and back-up curing to be using their cruor as well. That's simply not fair to the bard.

[RaenRyong]

I have a really difficult time maintaining a conversation with someone when I cannot depend on a common understanding of language. Saying that cheating is breaking the rules is literal, cheating death is figurative. If one cannot grasp a literal meaning, the figurative meaning never stood a chance

It's not as simple as it appears, because the implicit rule is that "you live, you die" - therefore by "cheating death" you are breaking an implicit rule. This example is misleading. You are literally cheating death - the system of dying - and so you are not extending the meaning logically, ie making it figurative.

What you are making is an assertion. You assert that gaining exp in any way but personally vanquishing a mob is "cheating" - literally against the game's rules. If you don't mean this literally, then you are using it figuratively, implying that you are depriving yourself of a positive experience, which is in itself an assertion. If you mean cheating literally, you are creating your own arbitrary definition. If you mean it figuratively, then you are being misleading with your language because cheating has connotations of legality and the breaking of a system of order.

[Chocobits]

This thread is cheating death.

[Corwin]

What I've learned from this thread?

Joined a pt of 6 for Exp? Cheating
Soloing mobs for Exp? Cheating
Made a mule to hold gear? Cheating
Used the Wiki? Cheating
Asked someone for advice? Cheating
Went Afk? Cheating
Changed gear while using a JA? Cheating
Started playing FFXI? Cheating
Zoned? Cheating
Warped? Cheating
Blood warped? Botting
Died? Cheating

[Leonlionheart]

Good point. And thanks for disagreeing, but not disagreeing and being disagreeable at the same time. Much obliged.

While going through this, there will be white space and lines. This will done to make stepping through the logic simpler and clearer.

Let's assume something like the opposite of if nobody keyed the sum total of the exp would be far less than if there is a keyer. "

Let's assume

no one fights

and

everyone is a keymaster.

This means that

no chests spawn

because

no one is fighting

because

everyone is a keymaster

therefore

no one gets exp

because

no one is fighting monsters

and

exp chests aren't spawning

because

no one is fighting monsters

because

everyone is a keymaster

therefore

fighters are essential

and

keymasters are beneficial

but

keymasters are not essential, not even to Abyssea.


This assumes there's a "one or the other" situation. Some jobs can fight, but not key at the same time. Some can key, but not fight. Some can key and fight, in the sense of buffing. ... Maybe a ranger with a fast X-bow could pull it off, DDing quickly as possible as often as possible, but still keying. Anyway.


If a Bard does it, they are making their party fight much faster, contributing to more overall damage. But they can get EXP chests at the same time too, making for even more exp yet. They are contributing to the battle, which is indirectly related to the essential part, but still related not the less, and still doing the bells and whistles part of abyssea.

You do not have to key chests. If everyone can gather quickly and efficiently, people can still kill things for a reasonable amount of time, you know, like 2 hours--as opposed to a 6 hour grind of capping and lights and then capping them for new people and on and on--and still get some exp. And yes, Abyssea is still a grind. It's just a longer grind at once, rather than smaller grinds over a longer period of time.

you misspelled keywhore.

similarly, keywoman would have worked.

[Romanova]

Can someone explain again why experience has to be tied to combat onry? Somehow I missed why experience can't be for the overall progression of your character (ie doing an OP on drg is your drg increasing his knowledge of the battlefield and how to defend it, etc. etc.)


Before there were MMOs there was table tops. I spend 4 hours one night with friends trying to find a cure for mummy rot. We found it, we got xp at the end of the night, never fought anything. Guess I cheated at D&D.

[Arlan]

Can someone explain again why experience has to be tied to combat onry? Somehow I missed why experience can't be for the overall progression of your character (ie doing an OP on drg is your drg increasing his knowledge of the battlefield and how to defend it, etc. etc.)


Before there were MMOs there was table tops. I spend 4 hours one night with friends trying to find a cure for mummy rot. We found it, we got xp at the end of the night, never fought anything. Guess I cheated at D&D.

Cheater Cheater! I'm reporting you to the GM! =P lol

[Akujima]

This is me when I first typed up this thread -> *Click* (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7VBaCEHJrU)

[Arlan]

This is me when I first typed up this thread -> *Click* (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7VBaCEHJrU)

I think this Link you provided should be posted on Your PVP thread instead since You brought it up.

Personally tho, I think you might of been more like this when you made this thread:
http://www.n-sider.com/media/hearts18stoned.jpg

[Panthera]

I would like to clarify my position.

If someone is close to their level and levels up with an exp scroll, technically that would be cheating, but not the end of the world.

If someone used exp scrolls to get an entire, smaller early level, that's not all that big of the deal. If someone played all but one level of 1-90, and know what they're doing, I scarcely have a problem with that.

It's when people who are in an area that's designed for 75+ are not getting an inconsequential amount of exp, not just one small level, but every single level from 30-90 that I wonder if they don't have to fight, why should anybody?

If someone goes afk for longer than X amount of time, people do complain. The amount of X is an arbitarary application of the what cheating is. SE can't fix that, but players can, and players do with a swift kick.

A rule must be absolute and clear--but one must be reasonble in its application. If a cop gives you a ticket for going 1 mile over the speed limit, the judge could just throw it out, because no one is perfect, and it's not a major violation. If someone skips a step in a staircase that's 100,000 steps long, and the goal is to get to the top stepping on each step as a rule, some judges might throw the entire race out because 1 step of 100,000 steps was missed. But in the context of FFXI, if someone skips 1 level of 90, that's not a big deal, as said. It's unreasonable to say well, if you skip 1, why not all of them? Because people aren't perfect, but just because a judge lets it slide when you're going 1 miles over the limit doesn't mean you shouldn't be fined for going over by 10. It is arbitrary, but it is also reasonable. The definition of cheating is absolutely in no way arbitrary; the application is, and one must be reasonable in those applications. Both being reasonable with when someone is cheating only a little, but also reasonable with when someone is cheating a lot.

[Arlan]

I would like to clarify my position.

If someone is close to their level and levels up with an exp scroll, technically that would be cheating, but not the end of the world.

If someone used exp scrolls to get an entire, smaller early level, that's not all that big of the deal. If someone played all but one level of 1-90, and know what they're doing, I scarecly have a problem with that.

It's when people who are in an area that's designed for 75+ are not getting an inconsequential amount of exp, not just one small level, but every single level from 30-90 that I wonder if they don't have to fight, why should anybody?

If someone goes afk for longer than X amount of time, people do complain. The amount of X is an arbitarary application of the what cheating is. SE can't fix that, but players can, and players do with a swift kick.

A rule must be absolute and clear--but one must bebe reasonble in it's application. If a cop gives you a ticket for going 1 mile over the speed limit, the judge could just throw it out, because no one is perfect, and it's not a major violation. If someone skips a step in a staircase that's 100,000 steps long, and the goal is to get to the top stepping on each step as a rule, some judges might throw the entire race out because 1 step of 100,000 steps was missed. But in the context of FFXI, if someone skips 1 level of 90, that's not a big deal, as said. It's unreasonable to say well, if you skip 1, why not all of them? Because people aren't perfect, but just because a judge lets it slide when you're going 1 miles over the limit doesn't mean you shouldn't be fined for going over by 10. It is arbitrary, but it is also reasonable. The definition of cheating is absolutely in no way arbitaray; the application is, and one must be reasonable in those applications. Both being reasonable with when someone is cheating only a little, but also reasonable with when someone is cheating a lot.

Then I guess a lot of people love cheating then.
Cause almost everyone in the allience Im with that I got to leach in abyssea didnt have a problem with me.
and those who did got kicked.

Majority dont care cause they want to get their own thing.
Only minority care but why listen to minority when they want to try to control and limit the majority from having their own ways of fun?

Leaching to lvl90 and playing ur job from there is a preference.
I prefer to learn to play my job starting from lvl68. Not lvl1 or lvl30.
So I leach to lvl68 and start playing my job there.

You mind your business and play how you want but dont act like everyone else has to play it the same way you do.


lol

[Ravenmore]

Thing is people do exp scrolls to skip ahead many levels. you can get a level a week if you luck out on them till about 25 then it takes a good chunk off tnl throw in Street sweeper that you can do 7 times a week theres lots of free exp to be had.

[Panthera]

It's not as simple as it appears, because the implicit rule is that "you live, you die" - therefore by "cheating death" you are breaking an implicit rule. This example is misleading. You are literally cheating death - the system of dying - and so you are not extending the meaning logically, ie making it figurative.

What you are making is an assertion. You assert that gaining exp in any way but personally vanquishing a mob is "cheating" - literally against the game's rules. If you don't mean this literally, then you are using it figuratively, implying that you are depriving yourself of a positive experience, which is in itself an assertion. If you mean cheating literally, you are creating your own arbitrary definition. If you mean it figuratively, then you are being misleading with your language because cheating has connotations of legality and the breaking of a system of order.

The example was imperfect. Let me clarify what I was getting at.

There were a few--and by no means all--that couldn't apply words because they didn't understand their import. "Cheating death" is abstract. Literal or no, people routinely say,"SE says it's not against the rules end of story" when there's more to it than that. They use the simplest, easiest-to-get meaning, when more abstract meanings, such as "evading" are generally "evaded," either deliberately, or not. And that particular examples and analogies are evaded, I find very telling.

[hiko]

Thank you very much for asking, Aliekber.


There are four relationships: mutualistic, commensal, parasitic, and competition.

Commensal is where one benefits, and the other isn't helped or harmed. This isn't cheating.

Mutualistic is where both individuals concerned benefit. Both get exp. Nothing cheating about this.



XP cleave leeching is commensal leecher benefits, cleaver/pullers aren't harmed:
=> cleave leeching isn't cheating
if you paid your spot it is mutualist (cleaver gain gils)
key whoring is mutualist: key whore use cruor but get xp, others fight/pull/buff/heal but doesn't use cruor

[Byrth]

First off, how you get xp doesn't matter anymore. XP is a convenient byproduct of other productive things. I haven't "gone out and xp'd" and I'm something like 5 merits from re-capped.

Secondly, in Abyssea it really only takes two good DDs to out-kill the speed at which it is possible to pull. For instance, once upon a time I had myself (DNC/NIN with Twashtar) and a friend (DRG/SAM with OAT polearm) at Dolls with four pullers. Bard and White Mage as support, then leechers. The thing limiting our xp/hr wasn't how much damage we could do, it was basically respawn rate and pulling time even with four people multi-pulling. There's always room for some leechers, unless half of your party is leechers in disguise.

[Korpg]

People don't join the army with one physical and that's it. They're doing push-ups and ALOT more every single day in the army. It's called exercising your job.

Sorry, I have to point out this.

It has been proven that boot camp (basic training if you want to get technical) is not just a bunch of exercise. Its basically breaking the person down to their basic components, and rebuilding them into something the government wants, a soldier that would die for their cause. Its more of a psychological exercise than it is physical. Your example is horrible, because it basically proving the point of your opponents. You take a person with no strength, and you build them into a superman in 6-8 weeks while obeying your ever command.

Which is a shortcut, which is, by definition, a cheat according to you and your sole supporter.

[Korpg]

I have a question for the anti-abyssea leech people.

I'm currently doing ice TotM staff (ya ya, I know, I'm gimp for not having it done by now, bite me).

I'm on Trial 1708. Thats the "kill 200 bees with 150+ ice damage at the end"

Now, I'm in Wajorm linking 6 bees together, nuking them down to 0 with Blizzaga III at the end, and collecting 6 kills at once. According to your logic, that is a shortcut, and shortcuts are bad. You would rather have me kill each bee individually, effectively doubling the 3 hours this would take to 6 hours worth of work. Why?

Also, while I was doing the "kill 150 arcana mobs with 50+ ice damage" part, I did snolls in Ugly range. During ice weather, snow geodes dropped. Now I have 15 snow geodes for my final trial. Since I have my final trial done already, is that considered cheating since I went out of order and/or did 2 trials at the same time, which the game "intended" people to do 1 trial at a time?

What is your response to that?

[RaenRyong]

I would like to clarify my position.

If someone is close to their level and levels up with an exp scroll, technically that would be cheating, but not the end of the world.

It's not though. Technically implies an exact definition, and the exact (literal) definition of cheating is an activity against a given set of rules. The rules suggest you are able to level up in any way which involves you gaining experience.

I think you have to drop the word "cheating" and just say "I don't like it when people level up outside of exping", because there is no justification for it otherwise.

[Korpg]

Newcomers have the chance to circumvent 80% of the games content and skip basically everything else, going straight to Abyssea. I say 80% because all that's needed is to get a few friends to farm items for the Limit Break quests. And 20% allotted to LB quests is very generous.


Wait, is this your argument? Because Abyssea gives a chance for a level 30 newcommer to get to 90 as soon as possible, they can't do any of the stuff that everyone else had to do pre-abyssea?

What are they really missing?

Outdated and horrible-to-wear/use Artifacts?
Meaningless quests with no real rewards?
NMs that does nothing (looking at you Mimas)?
Missions that they can do at a stronger level by themselves compared to a level 30 perspective of the same fights?

You really think that they are missing anything? Do you really want them to go thru years of torment because you went thru the same thing? For what? Because you feel justified in doing the same thing everyone did at that time?

Come on man, stop being selfish. Telling everyone they are cheating and/or demanding this level cap will cause new players to LEAVE which is what we don't want in this game at its stage of life cycle.

[Korpg]

and yeah, I'm still reading past this thread. So far its a great read, many lulz were had and all that.

[Korpg]

I have been kicked from pick up exp parties for doing too much damage and killing mobs too fast...

I got kicked from pickup exp parties for being a WAR90, having at least 2 keywhores in the alliance, but not having keys on hand and not opening chests.

You know, doing my job.

They even kicked me when I voke-pull a mob just to see me die, which I didn't >.>

[HFX7686]

It's not though. Technically implies an exact definition, and the exact (literal) definition of cheating is an activity against a given set of rules. The rules suggest you are able to level up in any way which involves you gaining experience.

I think you have to drop the word "cheating" and just say "I don't like it when people level up outside of exping", because there is no justification for it otherwise.

This is a very sensible post.

I think that this Panthera dude might in fact mean "cheating yourself out of the wonderful experience of leveling in the manner I deem acceptable".

None of what Panthera has claimed to be cheating is, in fact, cheating.

[Olor]

Wait, is this your argument? Because Abyssea gives a chance for a level 30 newcommer to get to 90 as soon as possible, they can't do any of the stuff that everyone else had to do pre-abyssea?

What are they really missing?

Outdated and horrible-to-wear/use Artifacts?
Meaningless quests with no real rewards?
NMs that does nothing (looking at you Mimas)?
Missions that they can do at a stronger level by themselves compared to a level 30 perspective of the same fights?

You really think that they are missing anything? Do you really want them to go thru years of torment because you went thru the same thing? For what? Because you feel justified in doing the same thing everyone did at that time?

Come on man, stop being selfish. Telling everyone they are cheating and/or demanding this level cap will cause new players to LEAVE which is what we don't want in this game at its stage of life cycle.

Speaking as a re-roller who started from scratch, I agree. Why should I have to spend a year toiling through useless and outdated content before I can get to max level and get good gear?

Then I can go back and work on the content that is worth doing, instead of relying on people to carry me through it.

[Romanova]

It's unreasonable to say well, if you skip 1, why not all of them? Because people aren't perfect, but just because a judge lets it slide when you're going 1 miles over the limit doesn't mean you shouldn't be fined for going over by 10. It is arbitrary, but it is also reasonable. The definition of cheating is absolutely in no way arbitrary; the application is, and one must be reasonable in those applications. Both being reasonable with when someone is cheating only a little, but also reasonable with when someone is cheating a lot.


those are your opinion on what you deem is reasonable and unreasonable. As many have said in the thread most consider it reasonable simply because SE allows it. Who are you to decide what is reasonable for us?

So basically you just spent 10+ pages trying to make it sound like your way is absolute when it's really in the end just your opinion.

[Korpg]

I know guys, sorry for bring up some old stuff. But I GOT to reply to some of it. Please forgive me for getting to this thread so late in the topic.


@Panthera: Good luck trying to get any point across. It's quite obvious that it's impossible to have a mature debate with anyone here.


Mature as in what? Ignoring people with valid, sound opinions and replying/referring to those who are obviously trying to get you to respond in a way that undermines your entire argument? Because they have undermined your argument in previous pages, doesn't mean that everyone is not being "mature".

Besides, what does maturity mean to you? Agreeing with you? Because that is the only "definition" I have seen of anyone being "mature" in your mind.

[Akujima]

I have a question for the anti-abyssea leech people.

I'm currently doing ice TotM staff (ya ya, I know, I'm gimp for not having it done by now, bite me).

I'm on Trial 1708. Thats the "kill 200 bees with 150+ ice damage at the end"

Now, I'm in Wajorm linking 6 bees together, nuking them down to 0 with Blizzaga III at the end, and collecting 6 kills at once. According to your logic, that is a shortcut, and shortcuts are bad. You would rather have me kill each bee individually, effectively doubling the 3 hours this would take to 6 hours worth of work. Why?

Also, while I was doing the "kill 150 arcana mobs with 50+ ice damage" part, I did snolls in Ugly range. During ice weather, snow geodes dropped. Now I have 15 snow geodes for my final trial. Since I have my final trial done already, is that considered cheating since I went out of order and/or did 2 trials at the same time, which the game "intended" people to do 1 trial at a time?

What is your response to that?

My response to this is, the lot of you are fanatical and won't grasp the concept of a healthy balance. You keep coming up with extreme examples to defend your case. If the cap to Abyssea was 70~75, Abyssea would be no different then it is now, it would just balance out the population outside.


Wait, is this your argument? Because Abyssea gives a chance for a level 30 newcommer to get to 90 as soon as possible, they can't do any of the stuff that everyone else had to do pre-abyssea?

What are they really missing?

Outdated and horrible-to-wear/use Artifacts?
Meaningless quests with no real rewards?
NMs that does nothing (looking at you Mimas)?
Missions that they can do at a stronger level by themselves compared to a level 30 perspective of the same fights?

You really think that they are missing anything? Do you really want them to go thru years of torment because you went thru the same thing? For what? Because you feel justified in doing the same thing everyone did at that time?

Come on man, stop being selfish. Telling everyone they are cheating and/or demanding this level cap will cause new players to LEAVE which is what we don't want in this game at its stage of life cycle.


Actually, right now in Asura I can name 4~5 people that I just met, who are new to the game or are returning from a very long long time ago. They don't do Abyssea, and they don't plan to until they hit 75. The only people who would be complaining, are those who haven't leeched all their jobs to Lv90. One of those players also told me her boyfriend quit playing BECAUSE of Abyssea, but she still plays the other content that you consider a waste of time. So YES, people are still playing and do other things in this game, even if they don't like Abyssea.

Also, what are you afraid of? You think the LvCap will be risen? SE will not even comment on this thread, because any comment will have a negative response from the community. The sole reason I created this thread, was to show SE that there is an imbalance in the design of Abyssea and to not make the same mistake over again when creating the Lv99 endgame content.

Abyssea was most likely a test design for the Dev's to see how the players react to it. They have already said there won't be anymore Abyssea zones, but the fact that people can skyrocket all the way to Lv90 (and 99 when it comes out) makes the "normal" way to exp obsolete.

And answer this: What is the point in having those other zones, with other content such as FoV, GoV and "normal" EXP Zones/Mobs, if Abyssea is truly the only worthwhile way to LvUp? It's basically the same comparison with equipment found inside Abyssea and equipment found inside Salvage/Nyzul/Sky/Sea/Einherjar/ZNM. All that gear is useless now because of Abyssea gear and now with Lv30 Cap, all those zones designed to LvUp 30~75 are useless because of Abyssea EXP gain.

Expansions/Addons shouldn't make everything else completely useless, there should be a reason to complete all that other content still. You think the majority of people who thought it was ok to AbyLeech, will waste their time going through that other content? I think not.


...

I don't know why I continue posting here...ugh...

[Korpg]

My response to this is, the lot of you are fanatical and won't grasp the concept of a healthy balance. You keep coming up with extreme examples to defend your case. If the cap to Abyssea was 70~75, Abyssea would be no different then it is now, it would just balance out the population outside.

Wait, you are calling people here fanatical when you are the one defending a very unpopular and defeated viewpoint?

My example isn't extreme, its happening right now. Do a /sea all Kingnobody (better do that soon, I'm on 9 kills left) and you will see that my example is true.

As for putting Abyssea to 70-75 cap. Guess what. Astral Flow Burns will become very popular all over again. Paid PLs will become very popular again (which means that the PL will paid by the soloer to level with them, why would anybody pay to have somebody else leech off the exp?) FoV/GoV will be overcamped...again.

What you are suggesting is not the main solution to your problem, its spreading the problem to another part of the game. And odds are, you will complain about that too!

"SE, FoV is overcamped, do something about that or face the wrath of Akujima"

Edit: My /sea all example is no longer valid, because I'm finished with that trial and am no longer there. So sorry Akujima, you missed out. But the example you quoted and therefor assumed it was extreme was still valid. And true. And not extreme

[blowfin]

And answer this: What is the point in having those other zones, with other content such as FoV, GoV and "normal" EXP Zones/Mobs, if Abyssea is truly the only worthwhile way to LvUp? It's basically the same comparison with equipment found inside Abyssea and equipment found inside Salvage/Nyzul/Sky/Sea/Einherjar/ZNM. All that gear is useless now because of Abyssea gear and now with Lv30 Cap, all those zones designed to LvUp 30~75 are useless because of Abyssea EXP gain.

The point was to give people like you a choice.

While Abyssea is the fastest way to level up past 30, it's hardly the only option.

Just for arguments sake I've been doing some pages on WAR for a couple of reasons:
-Breaking out the NPC every now and then
-Getting some skills ups in the bargain

You know what I've found though? It's dead boring, it's dead slow.

I also plan to give campaign a go once I hit 60 just for the hell of it, and I suspect I'm going to come to the exact same conclusion. The only problem there is I don't even get skill ups for my troubles.

[Sayelle]

Expansions/Addons shouldn't make everything else completely useless, there should be a reason to complete all that other content still. You think the majority of people who thought it was ok to AbyLeech, will waste their time going through that other content? I think not.

You think wrong.

[Olor]

All that gear is useless now because of Abyssea gear and now with Lv30 Cap, all those zones designed to LvUp 30~75 are useless because of Abyssea EXP gain.



Yeah and my level 1 bronze cap was useless when I got to level 10 and I could wear the basty conquest gear cap. What's your point? You think that old gear should be top of the line forever? Crap changes. Deal with it.

[blowfin]

You think the majority of people who thought it was ok to AbyLeech, will waste their time going through that other content? I think not.

The augment system introduced for sky/abj. gear, and the new dynamis zones, have already done that in part.

[scaevola]

key whoring is mutualist: key whore use cruor but get xp, others fight/pull/buff/heal but doesn't use cruor

This is actually a big deal and isn't being mentioned enough. If you don't think spending 500 cruor on a key to pop open a gold/silver light red chest or a TE/1250 XP blue chest (which is pretty much necessary to do it reliably; I would argue it's necessary to open it at all for the top-tier red chests) is a big deal, you either haven't killed Shinryu and considered what opportunities 200k brews are capable of opening up for you, or are completely crazy.

Low-level chestpoppers contribute by taking a MAJOR cruor hit to make sure a necessary aspect of Abyssea XP gets taken care of. They bite the bullet on cruor gain so that the more powerful players who've long since capped XP/Merits but REALLY need the cruor don't have to. If you barred them from entry the entire institution of the Abyssea XP Alliance would last maybe another month before the big guns all just said "screw it, I'm soloing".

[Korpg]

Actually, right now in Asura I can name 4~5 people that I just met, who are new to the game or are returning from a very long long time ago. They don't do Abyssea, and they don't plan to until they hit 75. The only people who would be complaining, are those who haven't leeched all their jobs to Lv90. One of those players also told me her boyfriend quit playing BECAUSE of Abyssea, but she still plays the other content that you consider a waste of time. So YES, people are still playing and do other things in this game, even if they don't like Abyssea.

Also, what are you afraid of? You think the LvCap will be risen? SE will not even comment on this thread, because any comment will have a negative response from the community. The sole reason I created this thread, was to show SE that there is an imbalance in the design of Abyssea and to not make the same mistake over again when creating the Lv99 endgame content.

Abyssea was most likely a test design for the Dev's to see how the players react to it. They have already said there won't be anymore Abyssea zones, but the fact that people can skyrocket all the way to Lv90 (and 99 when it comes out) makes the "normal" way to exp obsolete.

And answer this: What is the point in having those other zones, with other content such as FoV, GoV and "normal" EXP Zones/Mobs, if Abyssea is truly the only worthwhile way to LvUp? It's basically the same comparison with equipment found inside Abyssea and equipment found inside Salvage/Nyzul/Sky/Sea/Einherjar/ZNM. All that gear is useless now because of Abyssea gear and now with Lv30 Cap, all those zones designed to LvUp 30~75 are useless because of Abyssea EXP gain.

Expansions/Addons shouldn't make everything else completely useless, there should be a reason to complete all that other content still. You think the majority of people who thought it was ok to AbyLeech, will waste their time going through that other content? I think not.


...

I don't know why I continue posting here...ugh...

A) 4-5 people who just started this game and said that they won't go to Abyssea until they are 75, you know why that is? It is because they can't get enough cruor to effectively key an actual alliance until they can actually participate in that said alliance. Once they get the cruor built up, they can effectively do that alliance some good. Until then, they have to either hope that one of their friends would let them leech their job to 75+ status, then work on skillups until 200~ level, then they can do some good for the exp party.

B) As for quiting because of Abyssea, that was their choice. They chose to not like abyssea, and they quit because of it. One example does not make a mob's mentality. Remember that!

C) As for what I'm afraid of, I don't care about raising the level cap, or leeches, or anything like that. You know why? Because why should I care what others do? That level 90 wiffing too much? So what? That's the leader's discretion to kick that person or let them stay. If that person is in a pickup group with me, so what? I can handle doing 75% of the damage, let them learn from me if they want to become as good as I am. Not my place to tell them how to play.

D) As for the test statement, I'm guessing that it is a success. 1 person saying no vs 1000 people saying yes sounds like a success to me.

E) To answer your question: What's stopping people from doing that? Because you limited your viewpoint to Abyssea only, doesn't mean that everyone else is the same. As for Salvage/Nyzul/Sky/Sea/Einherjar/ZNM, as yourself this: Why do people do that content? Is it because the content is fun, or is it for the gear? If people like it for the gear, then they would stop doing that content after they got their gear. If they like it because its fun, then they will continue doing so. Abyssea does not stop people from doing anything else. Stop blaming one part of the game from keeping others from playing other parts of the game.

F) Expansions and Addons don't make anything else useless. It makes the whole game fun, and the whole game isn't limited by any one content, like you have shown to believe.

G) I don't know why you continue posting here either. You are fighting a losing argument, and you assume that because people don't agree with you, they have nothing worthwhile to say and therefor not worth reading. Don't say you don't think that, because I got a couple of quote from you stating so!

[Akujima]

Wait, you are calling people here fanatical when you are the one defending a very unpopular and defeated viewpoint?

This idea is unpopular and defeated, according to who? I said you guys won, because you claim to be the majority. The majority you're in, is players still actively subscribing to FFXI, not those who've already quit the game or don't post/read these forums.


My example isn't extreme, its happening right now. Do a /sea all Kingnobody (better do that soon, I'm on 9 kills left) and you will see that my example is true.

I don't care if you kill 6 mobs at once to finish ToM quests. Blizzaga is designed to do that and that example is extreme and fanatical. Panthera is fanatical for saying that EXP scrolls are cheating or whatever.


As for putting Abyssea to 70-75 cap. Guess what. Astral Flow Burns will become very popular all over again. Paid PLs will become very popular again (which means that the PL will paid by the soloer to level with them, why would anybody pay to have somebody else leech off the exp?) FoV/GoV will be overcamped...again.

They've changed the re-spawn timer for old world mobs, they now spawn as quickly as Colibri do. FoV/GoV would not be over camped, as there are many different camps for different Level Syncs throughout the world. People would be able to accumulate Tabs/Gil along with EXP while grouping together.

Vana'diel would feel alive again.


What you are suggesting is not the main solution to your problem, its spreading the problem to another part of the game. And odds are, you will complain about that too!

What problem is that exactly? Not allowing people to leech? Over population, because you assume that the only things that exist outside Abyssea are Crabs and Colibri camps? (which is again, a fanatical/extreme view)

Since when was "Leeching" ever considered proper before Abyssea came out? If I recall, a player who went AFK for too long in a normal EXP PT, was booted and replaced with an active member. Now that leeching has become mainstream, everyone should just hop on the AbyLeech bandwagon and toss out their previous morals. You think that is a good excuse?

[scaevola]

They've changed the re-spawn timer for old world mobs, they now spawn as quickly as Colibri do. FoV/GoV would not be over camped, as there are many different camps for different Level Syncs throughout the world. People would be able to accumulate Tabs/Gil along with EXP while grouping together.

Vana'diel would feel alive again.



What would actually happen is fifteen guys floundering through the 60s would be humping one hellbat in Bostineaux, at which point one guy gets the bright idea to get everybody in an alliance, followed by him instantly having to switch from happy player to Internet Cop because half the people have gone AFK.

Any plan based around expecting people in a video game to stop finding ways to be People in a Video Game is doomed to failure, friend.

[BorkBorkBork]

Wait a tic I thought we won?? Keep Abumping

[Akujima]

G) I don't know why you continue posting here either. You are fighting a losing argument, and you assume that because people don't agree with you, they have nothing worthwhile to say and therefor not worth reading. Don't say you don't think that, because I got a couple of quote from you stating so!

The reason I'm fed up with posting here, is paragraphs like these. You just continually assert that this argument is invalid and put words in my mouth, saying that I secretly also think so. You came in here defending leeching and after almost 60 pages you're still defending it. If this battle was a lost cause and so unpopular as you claim it to be, then why has it gone on this long? (hint: try not to come back with silly stuff like "because you won't give up already!")

As said before: This is not the only thread that deals with this subject. If people thought this topic was insignificant, they wouldn't bother posting or replying to it and it wouldn't get as much feedback as it has.

[Kensagaku]

There is nothing wrong with being apart of the minority. Just because an angry mob attacks you, doesn't mean that we should give up and join them. Those amongst the minority are forced to learn their lessons the hard way, because the majority refuse to learn their lessons at all.

I know where these forums are heading. They're heading into a clash of who can withstand the longest belittling. Those who "win" are those who don't cave in. There wont be any equal compromise or collaborative efforts, about how to work towards creating a healthy balance. Anyone who speaks out about a topic they believe has merit, will just be consistently attacked and drown out, pushed to the side and ridiculed.

So there you go. You won. But not because you are right, but because you are the majority.

I see no reason to post further, in this thread or any other.

I would like to quote this post. Bolded for emphasis. Also only two days, didn't even make a week. Called it~

[Korpg]

This idea is unpopular and defeated, according to who? I said you guys won, because you claim to be the majority. The majority you're in, is players still actively subscribing to FFXI, not those who've already quit the game or don't post/read these forums.

It is unpopular because you are in the vast minority of extremes here. 2 people arguing vs how many now? 36 or so? Think that a 1 on 13 fight as a little onesided? I do. And I should think you do too. Also, see below for being defeated.


I don't care if you kill 6 mobs at once to finish ToM quests. Blizzaga is designed to do that and that example is extreme and fanatical. Panthera is fanatical for saying that EXP scrolls are cheating or whatever.

What about people who don't have access to AoE spells? Like, every job besides BLM? Is it fair to them that I can get my trial done in less than half the time that they do? Isn't that your whole argument? A small number of people getting to 90 faster than most other people? I made the connection, I'm sure a lot of people who has/will read this have made the connection. Why not you? Maybe you see the connection and don't want to admit it, because that would be detrimental to your whole argument.


They've changed the re-spawn timer for old world mobs, they now spawn as quickly as Colibri do. FoV/GoV would not be over camped, as there are many different camps for different Level Syncs throughout the world. People would be able to accumulate Tabs/Gil along with EXP while grouping together.

Vana'diel would feel alive again.
Having 20+ people fight less than 10 mobs in a zone/area, all of which are either soloist or duoist (mostly solo players, because we are talking about EP and DC mobs here) if you force people who don't want to level the "old" way to level. Its happening now! Look at Qufim Island. You will see more soloist than parties of 4+ people in the zone.




What problem is that exactly? Not allowing people to leech? Over population, because you assume that the only things that exist outside Abyssea are Crabs and Colibri camps? (which is again, a fanatical/extreme view)

Who said I said that? Those are the most popular camps, and usually those are the ones that get filled up first. Some oldschoolers might fight in Eastern Altep Desert at level 30, maybe Kazham at 25, but those are rare now, since its much faster to get exp in Qufim and Colibri camps.


Since when was "Leeching" ever considered proper before Abyssea came out? If I recall, a player who went AFK for too long in a normal EXP PT, was booted and replaced with an active member. Now that leeching has become mainstream, everyone should just hop on the AbyLeech bandwagon and toss out their previous morals. You think that is a good excuse?

You know, I was once against AFB, right when it became popular. Then I realized, its their game, why not let them play it the way they want to play it. Leeching was never accepted prior to Abyssea, and that is because one person going afk for extended periods of time would turn a 40k/hr camp to 15k/hr camp, maybe less if that afk person was the puller or healer. So those people get kicked. Now, since 4 people alone can kill a mob in less than 15 seconds, and there is no penalty for being in an alliance in Abyssea, but its a pain in the ash to have to keep looking into chests and opening up the ones you want, there are your keywhores, ready to do it for you in a flash.

As for the AFKers, since I'm not a leader in a pickup group, I can't kick them. But I do tell the leader all the time if there is an afker in the party. Its up to the leader to kick them out.


I wonder why, though, you feel like controlling everyone's enjoyment. By telling people "this is the right way, you have to do it this way or you are doing it wrong, you are cheating, you are undermining my entire experience and I want you to quit right now because you are a bad player" sounds a little like Hitler. Are you going to be all "Third Reich" on us and demand "Perfection of FFXI" and the "liberation of leechers everywhere"? Because thats what I'm getting from you.

[Korpg]

The reason I'm fed up with posting here, is paragraphs like these. You just continually assert that this argument is invalid and put words in my mouth, saying that I secretly also think so. You came in here defending leeching and after almost 60 pages you're still defending it. If this battle was a lost cause and so unpopular as you claim it to be, then why has it gone on this long? (hint: try not to come back with silly stuff like "because you won't give up already!")

As said before: This is not the only thread that deals with this subject. If people thought this topic was insignificant, they wouldn't bother posting or replying to it and it wouldn't get as much feedback as it has.

I'm not defending leeching. You are assuming too much again. If you didn't skim over my posts, you would see what I'm really attacking, which is your arrogance towards others in determining what is fun and what they should do.

Please read before you respond. Otherwise you will make yourself look like a fool (again).

[Romanova]

Expansions/Addons shouldn't make everything else completely useless, there should be a reason to complete all that other content still.

while I definitely don't want a WoW vs. FFXI debate, nor do I want to say that FFXI has to be like WoW, BUT

They've done this with a lot of expansions in WoW. How many people are in shatt? or in dalaran? maybe like 3 people happening to pass by on a random quest.

A lot of those dungeons are never used unless someone is randomly leveling in there.

Now again ffxi doesn't have to be like WoW, but WoW does prove that out-dating content =/= a dying game. Basically, all I want to point out that sometimes it's ok to outdate content and it's not the end of the world (or the game).

[Ravenmore]

Aku if you think level is real content go play FF14 thats pretty much the only real content it has. Real content is missions story lines and gear. Nothing stoping people from doing the story lines Now before you say no reward for people to do it it also work the other way too. Even with reward but needing the perfect set up to win missions put a fair amount of people off. Thats also why people told new player don't bother with CoP at level caps cause you'll need a 75 to beat some the missions and other jobs better for other missions if you didn't pick WHM as you first job.

[Akujima]

What about people who don't have access to AoE spells? Like, every job besides BLM? Is it fair to them that I can get my trial done in less than half the time that they do? Isn't that your whole argument? A small number of people getting to 90 faster than most other people? I made the connection, I'm sure a lot of people who has/will read this have made the connection. Why not you? Maybe you see the connection and don't want to admit it, because that would be detrimental to your whole argument.

It's a very small connection and is incomparable with the ability to Skyrocket every single job in the game from Lv30 to Lv90 in less than 1 month. That's why it's fanatical.


Those are the most popular camps, and usually those are the ones that get filled up first. Some oldschoolers might fight in Eastern Altep Desert at level 30, maybe Kazham at 25, but those are rare now, since its much faster to get exp in Qufim and Colibri camps.

Very subjective. It may be "easier" to get EXP in those camps, but not "faster".


I wonder why, though, you feel like controlling everyone's enjoyment. By telling people "this is the right way, you have to do it this way or you are doing it wrong, you are cheating, you are undermining my entire experience and I want you to quit right now because you are a bad player" sounds a little like Hitler. Are you going to be all "Third Reich" on us and demand "Perfection of FFXI" and the "liberation of leechers everywhere"? Because thats what I'm getting from you.

Again, more fanaticism.

[Akujima]

I would like to quote this post. Bolded for emphasis. Also only two days, didn't even make a week. Called it~


Another disgusting childish response, that made me want to stop posting in the first place.


You're right though.
I am an idiot for continuing this. You can quote me on that too.

[Mirage]

Panthera, you are a classic Scrub (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Scrub). Read the article, become enlightened, change your life.

If something isn't against the TOS, it isn't cheating. Per. I. Od.
God damn you! I've been clean for months and now I've got 50 tvtropes tabs open again and it's all your fault.

[Aliekber]

God damn you! I've been clean for months and now I've got 50 tvtropes tabs open again and it's all your fault.

"Hi. My name is Aliekber and I'm a tropeaholic."

[Mirage]

Good thing there is a finite number of tropes, so sooner or later it'll be over, right?

RIGHT?!?

[Korpg]

Akujima, I'm just calling it as I see it.

Your posts dictate a controlling attitude, and I'm not the only one who has said that. I just finished reading up to my first post on this thread on page 54, and I still see that you two are not really making any sense anymore. Almost all of your posts from page 40 onwards has been nothing but defensive and nonconstructive, most of which have given me a headache! Should I bill you for the aspirin I took just to read your posts?

Just admit that this argument is void now, stop replying to this thread, and it will eventually die down.

Also admit that you need to change your attitude towards others. I suggest therapy, but that might cost too much. I see a lot of troubled times ahead of you though.

[HFX7686]

God damn you! I've been clean for months and now I've got 50 tvtropes tabs open again and it's all your fault.

It caught me too. I thought I was the only one. I'm glad I'm not alone in my struggle with this addiction.

[scaevola]

while I definitely don't want a WoW vs. FFXI debate, nor do I want to say that FFXI has to be like WoW, BUT

They've done this with a lot of expansions in WoW. How many people are in shatt? or in dalaran? maybe like 3 people happening to pass by on a random quest.

A lot of those dungeons are never used unless someone is randomly leveling in there.

Now again ffxi doesn't have to be like WoW, but WoW does prove that out-dating content =/= a dying game. Basically, all I want to point out that sometimes it's ok to outdate content and it's not the end of the world (or the game).

Also, there ARE still reasons to complete that older content; the fact that direct and indirect mission rewards like Rajas, Suppanomimi, Brutal Earring, Sea Gorgets, and so forth have held up a lot better than most other 75 gear is not a coincidence. MKE/ASA/ACP augments are still a godsend for specialized macro gear, as well, to say nothing of old-content synthetic atma.

[Leonlionheart]

Very subjective. It may be "easier" to get EXP in those camps, but not "faster".


It is in every way both easier and faster.

[HFX7686]

Also, there ARE still reasons to complete that older content; the fact that direct and indirect mission rewards like Rajas, Suppanomimi, Brutal Earring, Sea Gorgets, and so forth have held up a lot better than most other 75 gear is not a coincidence. MKE/ASA/ACP augments are still a godsend for specialized macro gear, as well, to say nothing of old-content synthetic atma.

I've seen more people doing sky in the last month than the previous 2-3 years as well.

And Dynamis, well, there's always people in Dynamis now.

[Sesh]

I wonder why community reps don't post in threads like this? Is it because they would agree with all the sensible people, and pretty much tell the AnitAby ppl they're wrong? That would probably make them /wrists and that's bad for business I suppose.

[Sesh]

Quote Originally Posted by Aliekber View Post
Panthera, you are a classic Scrub. Read the article, become enlightened, change your life.

If something isn't against the TOS, it isn't cheating. Per. I. Od.

I just read that article, and wow it's so dead on I like it.


Scrubs may also put down others who use certain characters/teams/etc. for simply using them like everyone else is using in order to win. In other words, they don't like it when people use something that everyone else is since it's not "original" and will even go as far as accusing these people at sucking at the game for not using anyone or anything besides the top tiers.

Combined with the Noob, a scrub can quickly turn into a God Modder.

The Scrub is the antithesis of the Stop Having Fun Guy, although one could argue that the two are very similar — Stop Having Fun Guys demand that everyone use the most efficient and powerful choices (with failure to do so considered proof of inferiority), while Scrubs insist that everyone follow their personal house rules (with failure to do so considered cheating). Both make the mistake of taking things very seriously, both are more than willing to start a Flame War rather than let the other exist in peace, and both are eager to assign anyone to the side of their enemies who doesn't agree with their style of play (if you're not a Scrub, you must be a Stop Having Fun Guy, and vice versa).

That ^ is dead on to pretty much all of what Pan has been trying to accomplish in their posts. (I don't think it will ever sink in though) Pan. claims to have read it, but obviously it was ignored. Thanks for the link Aliekber :P

[Chocobits]

It only took Akujima a few pages before posting a buncha stuff again? Hmm, I thought he had abandoned this thread because he realized the forums were about 5000:12 against changing the entrance level. I didn't bother to read the last few pages, I've already done my fair share of reading in this thread.

Has he backpedaled his position? Is he still preaching about the evils of easy exp/lack of lolLowLvContent? Is he copypasta-ing thesaurus terms that he thinks make him look cool? Is he debating the meaning of the word "the", in an attempt to twist it into something that somehow makes us sound like we have double standards, and enjoy cheating our way through life? Someone bring me up to speed with a slightly comical rehash of the last 5 pages prs, possibly in musical format.

[Sesh]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiRjywbypLA&feature=youtu.be there you go XD

[blowfin]

Someone bring me up to speed with a slightly comical rehash of the last 5 pages prs, possibly in musical format.

I think Bohemian Rhapsody is just about perfect.

To be honest I think the main problem is he doesnt seem to be able to discern between leeching and keying.

[Catsby]

This thread is hilarious. Also, check the tags...

[Olor]

I just added "muffins" for max taggage

[Arlan]

Akujima, I'm just calling it as I see it.

Your posts dictate a controlling attitude, and I'm not the only one who has said that. I just finished reading up to my first post on this thread on page 54, and I still see that you two are not really making any sense anymore. Almost all of your posts from page 40 onwards has been nothing but defensive and nonconstructive, most of which have given me a headache! Should I bill you for the aspirin I took just to read your posts?

Just admit that this argument is void now, stop replying to this thread, and it will eventually die down.

Also admit that you need to change your attitude towards others. I suggest therapy, but that might cost too much. I see a lot of troubled times ahead of you though.

No...No.. Therapy is good.
I don't see a problem with that.

[Korpg]

yeah, Tags are overdoing it guys >.>

[Chocobits]

I just added "muffins" for max taggage

Ya I had created that tag when I wanted to start a healthy discussion about muffin preferences, but the forum police deleted all mention of muffins because they said I was intentionally derailing the thread.

I actually think it was very on-topic because muffins DO NOT CHEAT. They are sugary and delicious, and they didn't need to experience low level content or grind unnecessarily to be moist and wonderful. And neither do we. We are all moist and delicious snowflakes in our own way, regardless of if we killed 750 crabs/colibri or if we opened 500 chests. And so it is with muffins. You don't need a fancy oven. All you need is a 45 watt bulb. The main ingredient though, was love. -Murphy

[noodles355]

Talk about Self Confidence.

So then why don't we make every zone look the same? Heck why are there even color tones in the game, I'm sure the game would be just as interesting if every character was the same height, same color and composed of crude easily thrown together pixels... Sheesh... What an unbelieveably retarded comment. I mean seriously? Did you really write that? In fact its so unbelieveably stupid I really dont want to read the rest of your post, but I'll give it a quick skim over so you dont say "you didnt read it because you know im right" or some other rubbish.

Ok, so it appears you ignored the rest of my post and wrote some rubbish about /drg in the early levels. Firstly: dont kid yourself, you did not start a trend. Secondly: cool story bro. Thirdly: Tropical punches are a terrible weapon for level 40. Fourth: it appears from that gearset and your comment below it that you do not gear swap - suck less.

Now, back on topic. I'm actually going to answer your retarded question now:
Why dont we make everything gretscale and look the same? Because firstly I would like to refer you back to the key point of my last post "not everyone likes the same things". And secondly: because there is content outside of leveling. Some people see leveling as a means to an end. After they reach that end, they might want to go to different zones and do different things.

So next time you reply to me, please try to A) Not post stupid rhetorical questions, and B) Actually respond to the points in my post instead of typing some irrelevam\nt story about cookie cutter crap.

This reply may be 50 pages overdue, but I've had better things to do than argue on an internet forum.

[jamieg]

Well, the problem with leeching is it kills the gaming experience for people who do not want to leech. If SE is going to continue down this path they should at least make monsters not so overpowering in abys, so that people can be able to solo them for seals and stuff, since no one else wants to help out. They should also make it easier for people who are soloing in areas outside of abys that can't get in a regular party. I thought the exp increase would help, but it doesn't. A person should be able to get anywhere from 300 to 600 exp at least when they solo, so that they may lvl up their jobs by themselves without worry. The game needs to be made more soloable and less party necessitated. I remember when I had to find other people to help me out on some of the missions and it was a pain to even get them.

[Ravenmore]

jamieg everything you wrote has been gone over and debunked. Also many of the seal NMs can be soloed and theres quest that gives out seals, body and hands seals come from ops pages. Reason you can't find people to help is game is 9 years old people get tired of doing them over and over for new people. I can only think of A few missions at 90 you need help with all can be with 2 or 3. Also those that don't want to leech are really just to lazy to put thier own parties together to leech. Don't have keys get two other leechs to pop chest till you build little crour up. Doesn't take long on pages. Whole pages on wiki tells you everything you need to know to put a party together for abyssea.