RNG Ammo

[Sequdaz]

I've been wanting to play ranger again but everytime i think about ammo cost and availability it just makes me wonder, why is ranger ammo so rare, expensive and requires a very high skill to make?

99 Dweomer bullet costs ~50k, requires Alchemy ~80 Smithing ~50 and on top of that Synergy skill, Antlion Arrows are on a similar condition as they require woodworking ~80 high bonecraft and synergy.

the real problem isn't really the skill required only but also the trouble rangers/crafters have to go through to make Arrowheads/Ingots/Boltheads then synthesizing them again to make the ammo because nobody else does. some materials come from campaign/woe only, some others are just ridiculous to get.

Maybe if we had a NPC that sells ammo or/and Arrowheads/Boltheads this wouldn't be a problem.

Update:
Ammo market is dead at Ragnarok. :/ (http://www.ffxiah.com/search/item?&slots[]=8&jobs[]=2048&description=DMG&fields[0]=2&order[0]=1#adv)

[Gratinao]

Why not just do like ever other MMO out there and do away with ammo all together. we could keep the ammo types like bloody bolts acid blots but just make it so it does not use it all you need it 1 in to slot to use that type

[Raksha]

Why not just do like ever other MMO out there and do away with ammo all together. we could keep the ammo types like bloody bolts acid blots but just make it so it does not use it all you need it 1 in to slot to use that type

Or perhaps change it so that normal /ra doesnt consume arrows, but barrage/WS does.

[bungiefan]

Say, turn them into something like spells. Get the ammo and have infinite use of it. RNG and COR are the most expensive jobs because of this, besides maybe NIN. That or NPC shops need to sell the ammo at a cost that can actually be affordable to players.

[Glamdring]

at least have materials purchasable, crafters use ammo, food and ninja tools as their income source. That's also why so many rng, nin and cor level crafts to make their own ammo. But the scarcity of materials for end-game ammo is a problem. So is the lack of market for end-game ammo on the crafter's side. Why should a crafter keep putting the same stuff up on the AH every 3 days on the off chance that this go round a player might buy a single stack of his Antlion arrows-after he's already paid 3 weeks worth of AH fees?

Even bazaaring it is a problem, unless you put it on a mule when you are AFK this stuff takes space in your character's active inventory, and if you want to actually play your character you are probably not going to be in an area where people are shopping for ammo! And not everyone has 2 seperate systems and 2 seperate discs to dual box a mule to just sit there hoping a customer decides to walk by.

[Icerod]

I partialy agree with this. I do believe all ammo should share the same shaft. I do not believe we should have magical unlimited ammo.

[Inafking]

Wow, I was gonna put this in my Manifest thread, but I thought I was gonna be trolled for "get moar gil n00b."

[Catsby]

I always thought it would be nice if you could either use ammo or not use ammo. For example if you choose not to use ammo you can still fire your bow/gun/xbow but the +DMG you get doesn't have an additional effect/stat and follows a linear pattern based on job level. If you do chose to use ammo you get a higher +DMG boost from the ammo and all the other benefits that come from that ammo slot. So by not using ammo you get unlimited ammo but less damage and whatever other benefits.

[Taint2]

Ammo is a huge issue. I just finished Harrier+2 and am having a terrible time finding Ruszor/antlion arrows. Atleast make them synergy only because woodworkers don't exist.

[Feliciaa]

They need to just add a npc that sells all ammo types at a cheap price. It's really sad when having the most current ammo makes a player seem like a elite RNG.

[Raksha]

They need to just add a npc that sells all ammo types at a cheap price. It's really sad when having the most current ammo makes a player seem like a elite RNG.

I think it would be better just to sell the materials at a reasonable price. That way it empowers the crafters (at the expense of the farmers though)

[Feliciaa]

The only issue with that is players need multiple high lvl crafts to even make them which is one if the main reasons no one is really making the ammo.

[Raksha]

The only issue with that is players need multiple high lvl crafts to even make them which is one if the main reasons no one is really making the ammo.

True, but if an NPC sold them for cheap then there would definitely be no reason to ever craft them.

Fix the recipe and make the ingredients available from NPCs (maybe limited, like from guild stores)

[Zenpachi]

its not hard or expensive to level up crafts anymore, i made emp bow a few months back and once i found out how arrows hungry it was i started to level WW, took me about 1 month to get it from 1-90 and that was crafting maybe 3hrs a day, and i only spent 1.5m to do it

[Feliciaa]

Oh nice. If synergy is also around that much then I can see why just adding the materials would be good. But I still like the idea of also just being able to buy the ammo I need since the price won't change like it can with players.

[noodles355]

True, but if an NPC sold them for cheap then there would definitely be no reason to ever craft them.No one crafts them anyway so who cares?

[Mirabelle]

No one plays RNG because it costs gil, is finicky to play with all the distance restrictions and despite those two annoyances, it only does decent not exceptional damage. Because no one plays the job, no one buys the ammo. Because no one buys the ammo, no one makes the ammo. Because no one makes the ammo, no one farms the mats.

I think, at this point, RNG is so stigmatized that even fixing the job to be the uber DD it was meant to be, will not change the situation. SE should just accept that fact and make ammo available from an NPC just like QD cards. No one crafts those and it hasn't ruined crafting.

[Washburn]

The newer ammo is expensive because people are dumb.

Antlion arrows... 20k per stack or 200k per 12 quivers

Using the above, ill break it down for you:

- arrowheads are made by 85+ bone using 1 antlion jaw (easily farmed in attowah or abyssea attowah) and arent really put up on the ah bc they sell for 2k, then you need bone chips and wind crystals. Pretty cheap synth so far

- arrowwood lumber... Buy them for like 500gil/stack from the woodworkers guild in north sandy

- colobri fletchings... Can buy the feathers or just go stand near a colobri party in abyssea for 5 minutes and mooch their drops, the synth is like level 55 cloth, and uses 2 colobri feathers and a wind crystal,

With that being laid out, you can have a level 85+ wood worker sit in your party and lv 45+ synergist craft them. Nq synth is 1 full stack everytime with no lost materials, only fewell. The hq2 is 2 stacks and hq3 is 3 stacks, and they hq pretty often. I can literally make 12 quivers, mats and all for less than 30k... fewell included.

[Raksha]

The newer ammo is expensive because people are dumb.


Or smart. Take your pick.



With that being laid out, you can have a level 85+ wood worker sit in your party and lv 45+ synergist craft them. Nq synth is 1 full stack everytime with no lost materials, only fewell. The hq2 is 2 stacks and hq3 is 3 stacks, and they hq pretty often. I can literally make 12 quivers, mats and all for less than 30k... fewell included.

You also have to have a bonecrafter in the party in addition to the woodworker (or the woodworker has to have bonecraft sub levelled). They both have to be online at the same time. And unless you have woodworker/bonecrafter friends, then those guys are going to want some form of compensation.

If it were just that easy then more people would be doing it. Lots of people I talk to think that synergy is too big a hassle to deal with, so they don't even bother.

[Washburn]

Well, im bone sub and 80 synergy, so for me, the bonecrafter is only needed to make the heads, then from there i usually pay a wood worker to go eat dinner for a half hour while i make 3-4 stacks of quivers... Which helps if you do this in the nation that has the lead so you dont have to travel to quiver then go back to craft.
But yes, i suppose the crafters would be dubbed smart, but if ammo were cheaper, more people would be less intimidated by ranger and arrow sales would shoot up, no pun intended.

The real reason the synergized ammo is still so high is because most people don't know about the update that tripled the HQ results from making 33/66/99, to 99/198/297.

[Raksha]

The real reason the synergized ammo is still so high is because most people don't know about the update that tripled the HQ results from making 33/66/99, to 99/198/297.

I'm willing to bet that isn't the reason. It's probably a combination of RNG not being a great DD anymore, coupled with the synergy requirements, and the fact that there are other better paying synergy synths.

[Washburn]

I'm willing to bet that isn't the reason. It's probably a combination of RNG not being a great DD anymore, coupled with the synergy requirements, and the fact that there are other better paying synergy synths.

Maybe in your clique, but from everyone that asks me about ranger, which is often, says they never really played it b/c they always thought it was super expensive, which it WAS, but now it's not bad at all. It still sucks that you're paying like 100g per shot on average, but RNG is still a decent DD, but that depends heavily on what you're fighting, distance, gear/ammo, the player, the party setup etc.

[Raksha]

Maybe in your clique, but from everyone that asks me about ranger, which is often, says they never really played it b/c they always thought it was super expensive, which it WAS, but now it's not bad at all. It still sucks that you're paying like 100g per shot on average, but RNG is still a decent DD, but that depends heavily on what you're fighting, distance, gear/ammo, the player, the party setup etc.


I notice you have a Gandiva. Explains why you think RNG is such an awesome DD.

I'm still using slugwinder, and I have to say my DNC does more dmg than my RNG (in abyssea).

[Vortex]

I notice you have a Gandiva. Explains why you think RNG is such an awesome DD.

I'm still using slugwinder, and I have to say my DNC does more dmg than my RNG (in abyssea).

Ranger has always been an awsome DD...(yes i have a gandiva to but so what)

But much like war, drg, drk, RNG is a Spike damage job not a "dot" job like thf dnc and nin you need to know how to use it.

Try using arching arrow/heavy shot with razed ruins instead of slugwinder, you'll see much better results.

[Raksha]

Ranger has always been an awsome DD...(yes i have a gandiva to but so what)

But much like war, drg, drk, RNG is a Spike damage job not a "dot" job like thf dnc and nin you need to know how to use it.

Try using arching arrow/heavy shot with razed ruins instead of slugwinder, you'll see much better results.

The problem is that most other DD jobs got a massive boost when the lvl cap was raised, but RNG didnt get much. With every DD being able to cap haste and get massive crit rate (in abyssea) we have been outpaced.

I don't play RNG much anymore, but i'll check out arching arrow next time I get a chance.

[Vortex]

The problem is that most other DD jobs got a massive boost when the lvl cap was raised, but RNG didnt get much. With every DD being able to cap haste and get massive crit rate (in abyssea) we have been outpaced.

I don't play RNG much anymore, but i'll check out arching arrow next time I get a chance.

You are missing the over looked advantages of rng, like a good example is a mob with bad spikes, it is still a good dd, that can stay out of range of dangerous mobs due to aoe or punishment meele. my point is, RNG is not meant to be a warror or mnk, each job has it's own aspect, rng is already powerful if they did to much rng would be to strong. the only issues rng has is hate control since they have 0 defense. and /nin is worthless. giving up most of your damage for 3 shadows that won't last long is just a good way of gimping the job. But just like DRG PUP and DNC they can't "proc" anything other then blue so people don't really "ask" for the job.

[noodles355]

Try using arching arrow/heavy shot with razed ruins instead of slugwinder, you'll see much better results.Nah, you'll see fairly equal or maybe slightly better ones. Now, if Dead Aim was to work on weapon skills, it'd be a different story.

[Vortex]

Nah, you'll see fairly equal or maybe slightly better ones. Now, if Dead Aim was to work on weapon skills, it'd be a different story.

Since when? arching arrow has always and will always outperform sidewinder, because it is a critical based ws

sidewinder cannot critical at all. if they are doing the same you are definatly doing something wrong.

[Raksha]

Since when? arching arrow has always and will always outperform sidewinder, because it is a critical based ws

sidewinder cannot critical at all. if they are doing the same you are definatly doing something wrong.

A ranged crit increases your pdif by 25%. Sidewinder's FTP mod is ~40% higher than Arching Arrow's. So without "crit. dmg.+" arching arrow is inferior to sidewinder. Do crit dmg atmas make up the difference?

[Vortex]

A ranged crit increases your pdif by 25%. Sidewinder's FTP mod is ~40% higher than Arching Arrow's. So without "crit. dmg.+" arching arrow is inferior to sidewinder. Do crit dmg atmas make up the difference?

Yes, why do you think i'm saying go try it? RR SS and stout arm. assuming you are shotting off the ws in gear like loki's and cavaros mantle. One of the things that made me switch to it before i got jishnu's is that sidewinder has that terrible problem of missing alot and in order to solve that you would need to use drifter since it has ranged accuracy. arching arrow can miss of course but wil be alot more relaible.

[noodles355]

Gnarled Horn would be better than Stout Arm.

[Catsby]

A ranged crit increases your pdif by 25%. Sidewinder's FTP mod is ~40% higher than Arching Arrow's. So without "crit. dmg.+" arching arrow is inferior to sidewinder. Do crit dmg atmas make up the difference?

Doesn't dead aim add a bit more too? You can regularly break 4k with Arching Arrow/Heavy Shot.

edit: on topic, rng needs easier access to ammo and more ammo variation.

[Raksha]

Doesn't dead aim add a bit more too? You can regularly break 4k with Arching Arrow/Heavy Shot.

edit: on topic, rng needs easier access to ammo and more ammo variation.


People are saying Dead Aim doesn't apply to WSes.

[Alkalinehoe]

Meh, I averaged about 3.5k on most exp mobs in abyssea with Sidewinder, and I had bad/decent gear at that time. So AA vs Sidewinder is pretty moot when Jishnu's outdoes both considerably.

[noodles355]

Insert argument about what to use *whilst* you are farming your Empyrean bow, as you can't just buy it form NPC.

[Catsby]

Insert argument about what to use *whilst* you are farming your Empyrean bow, as you can't just buy it form NPC.

Condor +2.

[Raksha]

Insert argument about what to use *whilst* you are farming your Empyrean bow, as you can't just buy it form NPC.

Some job besides RNG.

[noodles355]

To be honest, the time spent uprading a different TotM Bow as a placeholder untill you get Gandiva is time not getting Gandiva. Should probably just pick up a Siege Bow or something.
Although the question was about what WS to use untill Gandiva, not what bow to use.

[noodles355]

Good news. Managed to get a response out of camate in the Cor topic:

We already put in a request to the dev. team regarding ammunition-related concerns. However, instead of holding up the release on these posts, we chose to proceed with them and update with further details after the fact.

Dunno about you guys, but just hearing that the issue has been raised and not completely ignored makes me feel substantially better.

[esoR]

To be honest, the time spent uprading a different TotM Bow as a placeholder untill you get Gandiva is time not getting Gandiva. Should probably just pick up a Siege Bow or something.
Although the question was about what WS to use untill Gandiva, not what bow to use.

gah! be careful with such information! suggest vision bow, not siege! lol, we are lvl 90.. siege should be tossed on sight! :D

[Alkalinehoe]

gah! be careful with such information! suggest vision bow, not siege! lol, we are lvl 90.. siege should be tossed on sight! :D
Yeah, Kur is easily soloable on DNC. I imagine THF or NIN wouldn't have much trouble either. Regardless, a duo would destroy it too.

[Camate]

In regards to making new ammo, and making ammo more readily available in general, the development team is still looking into a variety of things, so please wait a bit more.

Currently the main reason high level ammo is not being circulated is due to the difficulty of obtaining the materials. We will be making adjustments in the upcoming version update so that these material items will be more prevalent and as a result the circulation of ammo should increase and prices should go down.

[Alkalinehoe]

Awesome work Camate!

P.S. Tell the Dev team I love the new Trick Attack ability for RNG. Mind telling us the duration and recast? *winkwink*

[Catsby]

In regards to making new ammo, and making ammo more readily available in general, the development team is still looking into a variety of things, so please wait a bit more.

Currently the main reason high level ammo is not being circulated is due to the difficulty of obtaining the materials. We will be making adjustments in the upcoming version update so that these material items will be more prevalent and as a result the circulation of ammo should increase and prices should go down.

It would also help if there was interest in the job itself. Right now RNG and ranged attacks are so broken I'm not sure a new JA and more prevalent materials will do anything.

[Washburn]

In regards to making new ammo, and making ammo more readily available in general, the development team is still looking into a variety of things, so please wait a bit more.

Currently the main reason high level ammo is not being circulated is due to the difficulty of obtaining the materials. We will be making adjustments in the upcoming version update so that these material items will be more prevalent and as a result the circulation of ammo should increase and prices should go down.

I think the main deterrent is directly related to the requirment of a chain of high level crafters to ensure a higher HQ rate, so its actually worth the time you put into farming. Currently, antlion arrows are my choice at this time, and to make a decent stash of them, i first have to farm antlion jaws, because there is no other usable reason to farm them anymore other than for antlion arrows, then i have to hope theres bone chips on the AH, or go kill sleletons... THEN i have to hope someone with 85+ bonecraft is still playing and actually online. The wood is taken care of by a simple trip to sandoria, and the fletchings, again, no realistic use for colibri feathers anymore, so i farm those, and use my clothcraft to make those. Thankfully i capped synergy as well, but to be able to hq them, i have to find/beg/pay a high level wood worker to sit in my party while i synergize arrows, bc my 60-woodworking is too low to hq at a high rate.

Producing arrows is a daunting task that requires too many high level crafts to be able to keep costs down. High level crafters spent millions upon millions of gil getting their craft up, and selling quickly depleting items such as ammo / silent oils etc is their reliable source of hopefully come out on top and actually pulling a profit. There needs to be a balance where the hq rate is either raised, or the nq result is raised so you get more for the trouble, or have the items needed to make arrowheads produce more arrowheads per synth.

Relying on and waiting for certain crafters shouldnt be a NECESSITY for any job to function, and since ranger is my passion and my main since july 2004, and gandiva is my bow, ive seen my share of 100-300 gil per shot arrows fly away from me, and having gandiva with a 5-hit build means: just under 40% of the arrows i go through are just from jishnu's radiance, and boy do they go fast.

[Glamdring]

agreed. the materials are not particularly hard to get... the RAW materials. Take a thief for an hour and you can have sufficient materials to make several full stacks of quivers of antlion and/or ruszor arrows (until I started leveling ranger I just NPC'd and/or dumped them). Now bolts and bullets? whole 'nother story. But seriously, all this end-game ammo requires crafters about 90 just to hit the skill cap, so HQ is gonna be few and far between. Couple that with it requiring a high level synergist too? Then add in that the only person really benefiting from their time is me (to the short-sighted, the long-sighted realize that with lvl-appropriate ammo ranger is back in viable DD mode [if the proposed changes in fact work as advertised]).

[SpankWustler]

Currently the main reason high level ammo is not being circulated is due to the difficulty of obtaining the materials. We will be making adjustments in the upcoming version update so that these material items will be more prevalent and as a result the circulation of ammo should increase and prices should go down.

I'm not sure this will help with the stuff Ranger uses, since the materials are already obtainable from killing monsters, but it will definitely help Corsair out. Good to hear they're taking the issue seriously enough to work on it, if nothing else.

[xbobx]

Quick question. The newer ammo, according to wiki it sounds like it is synergy only. Can you make with normal woodworking?

[Glamdring]

Quick question. The newer ammo, according to wiki it sounds like it is synergy only. Can you make with normal woodworking?

if you can I've never found a recipie for it... and I've looked.

[Francisco]

Right now RNG and ranged attacks are so broken I'm not sure a new JA and more prevalent materials will do anything.

Broken how?

I have two rangers in my LS, one was thrilled at the last version update - another never uses his RNG because "it's boring".

[Xellith]

RNG is very weak compared to other options. The job itself is broken due to its damage capabilities.

MNK goes nuts.
MNK pulls hate.
MNK keeps going nuts.
MNK doesnt care.
MNK kills mob.
MNK smiles

RNG gets in sweetspot
RNG goes nuts
RNG pulls hate
RNG is no longer in sweetspot
RNG makes the other DDs chase the mob
RNG is shouted at
RNG cries
RNG changes job to DD BRD or something better.

RNG needs to have -enmity traits that increase with level.
RNG needs to have low enmity shots from behind a mob permanently with no ability use.
RNG needs to have hate loss abilities which can be used frequently.

Until these issues are addressed rng is just a broken and more or less useless job unless you want blue proc during piercing time.

[Raksha]

Broken how?


Because snapshot is a piss-poor replacement for haste. And the only way to do decent damage is Jishnu's Radiance.

[Atomic_Skull]

In regards to making new ammo, and making ammo more readily available in general, the development team is still looking into a variety of things, so please wait a bit more.

Currently the main reason high level ammo is not being circulated is due to the difficulty of obtaining the materials. We will be making adjustments in the upcoming version update so that these material items will be more prevalent and as a result the circulation of ammo should increase and prices should go down.

The real problem isn't materials it's the synergy requirement combined with RNG being a dead job. If ammo is made to be cheaper high level crafters will be even less likely to want to make it because not only will it sell slowly there will also be less profit to be had.

[Raksha]

The real problem isn't materials it's the synergy requirement combined with RNG being a dead job. If ammo is made to be cheaper high level crafters will be even less likely to want to make it because not only will it sell slowly there will also be less profit to be had.

You can have the same amount of profit with cheaper material cost. Doesn't seem likely to end up that way, but it is possible.

[Washburn]

................................

Ok, so I've been thinking of ways to solve RNG's issues with emnity. The things I've come up with are asking s lot of the dev team, but it would put RNG back on the map. We do pay for the damage we do each shot, so why shouldnt we be an awesome form of damage?!

Things that would work:

- Eliminate distance modifiers, and let RNG be what it was when it was created, instead of trying to mold it into some sort of complex damagedealer that is more of a neusance than it is worth. Yeah kraken club rng would be insane, but for 40m, or a .5% chance of getting one from "Up In Arms", its not like it would be every RNG in the game...DRK with kraken club is still better for dmg for the most part

- Have a 30 second ability that allows emnity gain from a weaponskill to have a delay of about 5 seconds, so you could run to the sweet spot, hit the ability, weaponskill, and run back in to normal melee range without dragging the monster all over the place.

- Add an ability or a special ammunition that is used on a party member that works basically like a reverse callobrator and dumps a portion of your emnity on the tank until you have time to get behind them and use rng trick attack dealio.

- Lastly is a bit extreme, but the only thing left would be a super special ability that allowed RNG to use an ability called "The Orb of Confusion", which converted 10,000 of your accumulated experience points into a single merit point for use on another job, so you could just level-down and make really good use of all thise hard earned experience points on jobs that worked correctly.

Sorry for the harshness on that last one, i was initally going to name it something else that would have been bad-news-bears, but the sponge bob referrence seemed pretty awesome, so i went with that. :).

[noodles355]

They should make it so attacks don't cause Shadowbind to wear off. Tht would really fix the distance problem. Wouldn't be too broken either because even though you could go nuts for 45 seconds without the mob wailing on you, it'd still come for you afterwards and try to eatface.

[Glecent]

I don't entirely understand the ammo issue. Maybe it's just Quetz but I don't ever have issues getting Antlion Arrows from the AH. I see a problem getting Ruszor Arrows but that's because the materials are near impossible to get.

[Alkalinehoe]

I don't entirely understand the ammo issue. Maybe it's just Quetz but I don't ever have issues getting Antlion Arrows from the AH. I see a problem getting Ruszor Arrows but that's because the materials are near impossible to get.
This. Levi has a fairly healthy Ammo market, Antlions aren't hard to get at all (last time i checked, 90-100k per stack of antlion quivers), Ruzsors are though.

[Raksha]

I don't entirely understand the ammo issue. Maybe it's just Quetz but I don't ever have issues getting Antlion Arrows from the AH. I see a problem getting Ruszor Arrows but that's because the materials are near impossible to get.

Then you do, in fact, understand the ammo issue.

[Ryx]

There are crafters, the problem's in the materials. I've given it a little bit of thought, and come up with a couple ideas as to how SE could throw us a bone without doing much at all.

Ruszor Arrows...Ruszors are annoying, and there's little reason to fight them, aside from their fangs. But what if we gave people another reason to fight them, like involving them in magian trials for a popular weapon path or two, and make the drop rate a little better on their fangs. It'd have to be a trial that people are going to do, regardless of challenge, like the cure potency staff, or an empyrean weapon upgrade trial. Tbh, I'd kinda like this *not* be a Blm-related trial, since Blms (esp. the quality ones that do magian staves) are notorious for having inventory nightmares, and since Ruszor Fangs don't stack, you could see them quickly going to waste.

Option two is Voidwatch. You get a lot of crap drops in Voidwatch because they feel the need for "everyone participating to get something, even if that something is crappy." But what if we added the materials used to make modern RNG ammo to the pool for that crap, and made it fairly prevalent? You'd have people doing Voidwatch putting materials into circulation, etc, etc, ammo appears on the AH.

Voidwatch, in turn, being HARD content as opposed to kiddie-land abyssea, gives RNG the opportunity to do its job again, and should hopefully see some revived interest in the job. Ranger shines better against high defense, non-zergable mobs, being less reliant on buffs and haste (which ranger doesn't need, we are NOT a melee) to do steady, consistent damage from outside of AoE range. There's more to strategy than who can do the most damage to a wild rabbit. Could you zerg down Voidwatch NMs? Maybe. But why would you want to, you're not going to get drops that way.



Ninja Tools: I want to be able to create inoshishinofuda/shikanofuda/chonofuda through synthesis. We are planning on implementing this.

They mentioned in the nin post about add non-synergy recipes for the master ninjutsu tools, would it be unreasonable to do this for ammo as well? I understand the idea of rewarding people for using synergy, so tone the yields back to normal ammo 33/66/99 yield model. As-is, the synergy recipe for Ruszor arrows is actually pretty stupid efficient. 1 Ruszor Fang = 6~36 stacks of arrows, depending on HQs.

Dark Adaman Bullets / Bolts & Oberon's Bullets - These use crafting materials already fairly common in the game. Just add the option to synth them without synergy at a less efficient ratio, and it should work itself out.

That's my two gil on the matter. Now back to more important matters, like when we're getting our passive enmity reduction trait based on position or info on the recast / effectiveness of Decoy shot.

[Agetos]

great! so what's the news on Cor ammo?

[Atomic_Skull]

You can have the same amount of profit with cheaper material cost. Doesn't seem likely to end up that way, but it is possible.

If the profit per stack is too low then it's not worth the work involved in making them. That's why I only make 50k-100k per stack foods and not mithkabobs. Sure they sell fast and I could make as much profit off mithkabobs if I did 10x as much work but it's just not worth synthesizing mass amounts of them for much lower profit per stack.

[Raksha]

If the profit per stack is too low then it's not worth the work involved in making them. That's why I only make 50k-100k per stack foods and not mithkabobs. Sure they sell fast and I could make as much profit off mithkabobs if I did 10x as much work but it's just not worth synthesizing mass amounts of them for much lower profit per stack.

That's what I'm saying.

If it is profitable to make the ammo NOW, then it will still be profitable to make them if the material costs go down, but profit remains the same.

Just because the materials are super cheap doesn't mean you cant make huge profit on the synth.

[Francisco]

I agree on the enmity thing...

I think a good solution would be to change the enmity gained from ranged attacks to strictly (or almost strictly) volatile enmity (the kind that goes down with time), removing any link (or almost all of any link) it has to cumulative enmity (the kind that goes down when you take damage. This would give rangers a little more control and the option to "hold back" for a while til the mob forgets about them (with CE, the mob doesn't forget).

Rangers DO have one advantage over MNKs and WARs as well... the ability to deal damage while avoiding AoE, -ga/-ja spells, auras, etc... (unless they're the target of course). Being able to stand at a distance and do good damage is a pretty nice advantage.

I like rangers... I kinda think they should work as somewhat "stealth" damage dealers... snipers or something... It's definitely a niche job - I'd like to see it get more opportunities...

One thing I'll say about the job as an outsider... I don't really view RNG as a "main job" people play full time. I'm sure some do... but I've always viewed it more as a "special" job used for certain fights where more conventional DDs aren't as practical. (Not many of those exist right now, however... to me RNG feels kinda like BRD or COR in Abyssea... nice to have... but a luxury of sorts... and you probably won't find one around).

[Washburn]

Rangers DO have one advantage over MNKs and WARs as well... the ability to deal damage while avoiding AoE, -ga/-ja spells, auras, etc... (unless they're the target of course). Being able to stand at a distance and do good damage is a pretty nice advantage

Well, if you're using a gun or crossbow, the sweet spot is inside the AoE range, so you're screwed there too. Only bows have the luxury of being outside AoE range while maintaining a sweet spot.

[Lordscyon]

Usually best way too lvl rng cheap is goo too lower jeuno too goblin junxshop and buy arrows!

[Lokithor]

I know this thread is a bit old but figured I'd bump it anyway. God knows the rng sub forum could use a bump once a week or so. It's otherwise like a mausoleum in here.

The main problem with rng ammo is that there is no reason for anyone to play ranger any more. There is no demand therefore nobody to buy the crafters' product therefore no crafters making it. The few rangers that do play and buy ammo pay through the nose because ammo is so scarce, the few crafters that do make it jack the price through the roof (which they always do when they post something for sale with zero other units currently on sale). This does not result in other crafters coming in and driving the prices back down again because the demand is so low.

The way to address the ammo problem is to give people a reason to play ranger again. Get more people playing the job and supply and demand will take care of itself.

[FANCY60]

ammo is always an issue and i agree that it should be infinite if u choose not to use any you can buy on ah the ur damage would be that of 2-3 if u buy from ah the it should be as is. i believe that would reduce the pain alot

[Ryx]

I agree with Lokithor here. Ranger needs a reason to be played again, outside of diehard dedication. There are two parts to fixing this:
1. Add mobs with insane levels of defense/evasion. Ranger has ALWAYS shined better against the hard mobs, esp. those with lethal AoEs, like Gods in Sky (even post-floor removal), Fiat Lux' Shadow Lord, etc.
2. Fix Ranger's enmity dilema. While you can't fix stupid suicidal retards, an intelligent, restrained ranger should be able to keep themself out of the mob's attention. Vicious cycle that's been going since they distance equation was added (and disregard anyone who wants the distance factor removed -_-): Ranger stands at ideal distance > Ranger deals its best damage > Ranger pulls hate > Mob chases after the Ranger > Ranger is no longer at ideal distance, doing their best damage + everyone's pissed at the Ranger for moving the mob.

I've heard Decoy shot has potential, I haven't really had a chance to play with it myself yet, since it's in the harder events like Voidwatch that I think it's going to be the most pronounced. Sadly, I don't have the kanican-type reasoning or the patience to do the necessary tests to decipher the exact effect. I'm still waiting to see about our PASSIVE enmity reduction trait, but my gut's afraid we won't be getting it this update...may Altana have mercy if we don't see it in the next tho.

A couple additions to the crafting-side would help tho:
1. Add non-synergy recipes for everything made via synergy. Lower the yields as a trade-off.
2. Add/Increase drop rate of the annoying materials (such as Ruszor Fangs) to Voidwatch's "Crappy drop" pool.

While I'm sure that we'll see new ammo at 99, right now, Ruszors & Dark Adaman are the main factors. Ruszors are a total pain in the behind to farm, and rarely drop fangs in my experience. The main consolation is that the synergy recipes are stupid efficient, yielding 6~36 stacks of arrows per fang, depending on HQs.

Ammo is a necessary cost of Ranger. The fact that Ranger isn't free is part of what's kept the unskilled masses from playing Ranger, and I've always rather enjoyed that. I could invite Rangers without worrying about them being absolutely TERRIBLE like you do with any of the "Bandwagon jobs" of the time. And while yes, Ranger was bandwagon for a time in the wake of the Penta-Nerf while we still had our damage floor, that was also back in the day when people generally tried hard to be good at their jobs (except Plds, those were the dark ages /shudders).

That's my two gil on the matter.

P.S: Fancy60, these are the "English" forums, so please speak english.

[Catsby]

Well if the cooldown on this new ability is like 5 mins I don't understand how that helps anybody. The enmity system is old and needs to be fixed. Also, it's not just the ammo availability that's a problem. Ammo has been boiled down to the laziest degree. Look at the way ammo varies and progresses up to level 60 and then do the same for 61-90. No new add. effects, no new elemental variants, no new patterns. It's just higher base damage without any utility.

[Catsby]

So. Do we have more ammo now or is it too soon to tell?

[esoR]

they upped drop rate on ruszor fangs. thats a start?

[xbobx]

sometimes their idea of upped is 1%. They said they upped the drop rate of coins in Woe, people get maybe one to two a run.

[Shadowsong]

Say, turn them into something like spells. Get the ammo and have infinite use of it. RNG and COR are the most expensive jobs because of this, besides maybe NIN. That or NPC shops need to sell the ammo at a cost that can actually be affordable to players.

BST, to a tremendous degree, is the most expensive job to maintain.
Some single HNM fights can cost 100k+ in consumables

[Catsby]

BST, to a tremendous degree, is the most expensive job to maintain.
Some single HNM fights can cost 100k+ in consumables

That may be true but do they have trouble finding their jugs/biscuits?

[noodles355]

BST, to a tremendous degree, is the most expensive job to maintain.
Some single HNM fights can cost 100k+ in consumablesPeople use Bst at HNM?

[Yukichibi]

In regards to making new ammo, and making ammo more readily available in general, the development team is still looking into a variety of things, so please wait a bit more.

Currently the main reason high level ammo is not being circulated is due to the difficulty of obtaining the materials. We will be making adjustments in the upcoming version update so that these material items will be more prevalent and as a result the circulation of ammo should increase and prices should go down.

Wouldn't it be easier to make pounch and quiver drop from voidwatch ?

[Lordscyon]

They don't plan on making any WOW Changes too players they try too think of ways on how too nerf a player...
It is soo cool how Square Enix makes all these cool ideas i mean they Should Get a big GOLD Star that says Best Game of the Year! I love Square Enix Cool amazing outstanding ideas for us too play there games makes me wana play there game more golf clap.

[noodles355]

They don't plan on making any WOW Changes too players they try too think of ways on how too nerf a player...
It is soo cool how Square Enix makes all these cool ideas i mean they Should Get a big GOLD Star that says Best Game of the Year! I love Square Enix Cool amazing outstanding ideas for us too play there games makes me wana play there game more golf clap.
what is this i dont even

[Catsby]

I forgot to ask earlier but was any new ammo added? I wasn't watching datmine threads anywhere.

[xbobx]

No new ammo as far as I can see.

[Feliciaa]

If increasing ruszor fangs drop rate really is all SE did I think it's safe to say the "Dev team" is two guys with one Ipad. >.>

[Raksha]

Yeah it's a case of "careful what you wish for".

[Ryx]

They also added Ruszor Quivers, Oberon Bullet Pouches & the like to treasure casket drops, and possibly other sources as well. Don't go whining "They didn't do anything" before you know the full extent of what's come out. For all you people know, some of the crafting materials like Ruszor Fangs might come up as "Crap drops" in Voidwatch.

[Feliciaa]

I hope that's not the case or ammo prices won't change since void seems to not have much popularity vs abyssea. But I guess a bandage fix is a start while we wait on 99.

[Barber]

14 ruszor fangs up atm on our server which will make 84 stacks of arrows if there are no hqs on the arrowheads or the arrows. With hq's you are looking at over 100 stacks of arrows on the auction house that you can make for about 5k a stack. Of course you need to have or know a bonecrafter, but at least arrows are there now even if they are still a bit of a pain to get.

[Nynja]

If increasing ruszor fangs drop rate really is all SE did I think it's safe to say the "Dev team" is two guys with one Ipad. >.>

How so? If Ruszor arrows are the top arrows, and the problem was fangs had a 1% drop rate, then the problem is fixed. Theyre not gonna make infinite arrows for you to buy at 1g a piece.

if you dont know any bonecrafters or what not, thats your problem. its a MMO for a reason.

[Feliciaa]

Fangs were not the only issue. You need multiple high lvl crafts to make the materials and then multiple high lvl crafts to make the arrows. Which usually means the cost will be high unless you can find some really nice people who are willing to stand around while you craft ammo and not ask for any gil in return.

Yes it's a MMO but this much effort just to make standard ammo for your current level is way over kill. Not to mention the cost/dmg ratio vs. other classes does not match up at all.

My hope is they stop trying to spread Ammo between soo many high lvl crafts and just make it a high lvl woodworking with 2 low lvl crafts. Or just get it over with and add a Ammo NPC like every other MMO already has.

[Glecent]

It's not that hard to find any random clothcrafter to synth the fletchings, bonecrafter to synth the arrowheads, and then a woodworker to be in party to do the synergy. But perhaps I'm spoiled since I took the time to level woodworking to 100 on a second character (like a week), synergy to cap on 2 characters (like 4 days each), and have a brother who leveled bonecraft.

[Saelae]

Regardless of how you obtain it, ammo represents a significantly larger series of hoops that Rangers have to jump through just to play the job, relative to all other jobs except Corsair. Most other DD's you can just go out and start damaging things. Ranger you HAVE to have ammo to even be functional. If Ranger's damage was significantly better than other jobs to match the effort, or it could DD without having to worry about taking damage from the mob, the cost would be a little more justified. But why should Rangers currently need to put so much more effort into the job for the same results as other DD (sometimes even less)?

[Mirabelle]

It's not that hard to find any random clothcrafter to synth the fletchings, bonecrafter to synth the arrowheads, and then a woodworker to be in party to do the synergy. But perhaps I'm spoiled since I took the time to level woodworking to 100 on a second character (like a week), synergy to cap on 2 characters (like 4 days each), and have a brother who leveled bonecraft.

If that's all the time it took for you to get to 100 WW, then you a) have no job and b) have no friends outside of the game. No casual player (3 hr or less per day) is ever going to get WW to 100 in a week.

I always hate these "its so easy" time estimates from people that just play the game 24/7. There are many players that have grown with the game, got jobs and families and other responsibilities that no longer can play the long hours. We don't need that same time sinks any more with our limited playtime. And especially not a crafting time sink just for ammo.

Now I'll sit back for the inevitable. "but I have a life and friends and a 80 hr work week and still levelled WW in week, your just doing it wrong" reply.

[Nynja]

Once again...
if the materials for synthesis are unavailable because they have a disgusting low drop rate, thats a problem on SE's end.

If you cant get your hands on the ammo cause you have no friends with WW/Synergy lvled (btw you dont even NEED synergy lvled to synth arrows, you just wont get any HQ's really), thats your problem.


When antlion arrows were tops, I spent like 3 hours farming those stupid antlions for jaws, then turned them into arrowheads. my WW mule is on the same POLID as my main (bonecraft) who is the char I have with synergy lvled. my other mule (diff polid) took the heads, went all the way to sandy to meet my WW mule, and synthed up all those antlion arrows with lv 10-15 synergy, when they were 33/66/99, I got maybe 5 HQ's out of 50 synths...but its doable. You dont really need synergy skill to do any synergizing.

[Catsby]

That still isn't reasonable. When I equip a katana or dagger I don't need a consumable item for me to swing it. If a ranged weapon is going to require ammo then the ammo should be either dirt cheap/easy to obtain or powerful/serviceable enough to justify the extra pain in the ass.

[noodles355]

It's price is justified because it has the benefit of shooting from outside AoE.

Of course, with enmity capping so easilly and mobs moving, as well as the damage being lower than a melees (thanks to haste), the benefit doesn't really equal the cost of ammo.

[Mirabelle]

It's price is justified because it has the benefit of shooting from outside AoE.

Of course, with enmity capping so easilly and mobs moving, as well as the damage being lower than a melees (thanks to haste), the benefit doesn't really equal the cost of ammo.

Then explain to me bullet costs? According to SE's damage adjustment I'm supposed to shoot well within AoE range for max damage from a gun. If I have to stand in danger to use a gun and still can't keep up with other melee why are dark adaman bullets so damn expensive?

[Lumiya]

I would like to see useful changes made to ammo as well. It can be a bit ridiculous sometimes to even get ammo, forget the cost concerns. However, making it sold from a NPC isn't a for sure workable issue. When they made the universal tools on NIN and made them buyable at a NPC, it sounded like a great idea. Until you realize most of the tools are 1.5x-3x the cost of the AH individual tools. Not every solution is going to seem great. In the end though, I'm still quite happy with the tool resolution, but I know many who weren't.

Honestly though, this isn't 2007. I love the fact that not only does the dev team work on things that are useful, they actually listen to us as well. The thing is, if we let them know of a problem, they will come up with a solution they think works with what they desire. It's their game, not ours. I'd say just be happy they keep listening and continue to provide them with feedback, and a better come will hopefully come out of it.





This whole thing sounds lame, I'm sorry. I do mean it though.

[noodles355]

Then explain to me bullet costs? According to SE's damage adjustment I'm supposed to shoot well within AoE range for max damage from a gun. If I have to stand in danger to use a gun and still can't keep up with other melee why are dark adaman bullets so damn expensive?
Hi there, how are you? Good? Great. I explained the technical reasoning behind the absurd ammo cost. I never said I agreed with it. In fact, I insuinated that it was a load of bollocks. Would you care to actually read my post where I state "the benefit doesn't really equal the cost of ammo"?

ITT: "You're wrong. I didn't read what you wrote. We actually are arguing the same thing but you're still wrong."

[Feliciaa]

Tools being 1.5x-3x the cost of the AH individual tools might be the case on Valefore but on Phoenix NPC tools are 3-5k cheaper then their AH counterpart. Also, a NPC would help set a baseline that could be affordable and not crazy over priced. Plus a crafter could still HQ and make profit off that and everyone wins.

It's 2011. Why is having the most basic function of a RNG only accessible to the rich?

[Catsby]

Outside AoE would be justifiable if the enmity system wasn't still at level 75.

[Glecent]

If that's all the time it took for you to get to 100 WW, then you a) have no job and b) have no friends outside of the game. No casual player (3 hr or less per day) is ever going to get WW to 100 in a week.

I always hate these "its so easy" time estimates from people that just play the game 24/7. There are many players that have grown with the game, got jobs and families and other responsibilities that no longer can play the long hours. We don't need that same time sinks any more with our limited playtime. And especially not a crafting time sink just for ammo.

Now I'll sit back for the inevitable. "but I have a life and friends and a 80 hr work week and still levelled WW in week, your just doing it wrong" reply.

I do have a life and friends but I don't work, I just go to college. May have taken 2 weeks, I'm not sure but it still did not take very long at all. It's easy to spam through arrows almost all the way to 90 and thanks to Abyssea the mats for level 90+ items are extremely cheap.

[Alderin]

Add Antlion / Ruszor quivers to the Voidwatch / WoE chest pools.

[Alderin]

As for ninja tools - which I know more about then I do arrows & bolts:

As a ninja main, there are 18 different tools (not including universal). Couple this with a tp set, nuke set, m.acc set, ws set, pdt set, mdt set, evasion set - you are sitting well and truly over your 80/80 slots. If not, you are damn close to it. Sure BLM's have it tough too - with various staves & obi's etc. These tools were a godsend.

Pretty sure SE hit the nail on the head with universal tools. I am also happy they aren't synthable (although slightly more expensive) - at least they are a solid price if you make the effort to run to Bastok. Do the same with Ammo and we are talking... Keep Antlion & Ruszors synth only - however create another arrow that is slightly less efficient as these, at a decent price from an NPC for us to at least use for TP - then switch over to our more expensive / annoying-as-hell-to-find arrows when we are popping a WS.

[Ophannus]

Anyone else thing Scavenge should be overhauled completely and make it dig up Temp items relevant for RNG(Swiftshot Tonic for example) and "Temporary Ammo". Ammo with comparable or better stats than currently available ammo to make it worthwhile JA to use endgame?

Was also thinking of a level 1 bullet/arrow/bolt with 0 DMG on it that has Recycle+100 on it that can be used for skillups for jobs that aren't RNG and lack acc bonus that want to cap their ranged skills. Also spending gil to skillup is painful for RNG as most of the ammo we spend gil on to initiate a ranged attack will end up missing due to low skill, thus wasted gil. A trainee bullet/arrow/bolt with Latent Effect: Recycle+100 would be awesome whereby the latent effect is activated when your skill is uncapped. I don't see how this could be taken advantage of seeing as how the damage rating would be 0 so the only damage you'd get is from the Bow/Gun/Xbow's DMG.

[Aeyliea]

Outside AoE would be justifiable if the enmity system wasn't still at level 75.

Get an Annihilator and use relic WS. Emnity problem solved :)

[Fyreus]

Well, im bone sub and 80 synergy, so for me, the bonecrafter is only needed to make the heads, then from there i usually pay a wood worker to go eat dinner for a half hour while i make 3-4 stacks of quivers... Which helps if you do this in the nation that has the lead so you dont have to travel to quiver then go back to craft.
But yes, i suppose the crafters would be dubbed smart, but if ammo were cheaper, more people would be less intimidated by ranger and arrow sales would shoot up, no pun intended.

The real reason the synergized ammo is still so high is because most people don't know about the update that tripled the HQ results from making 33/66/99, to 99/198/297.


I think the reason reason it's so high is because not many are interested in a tedious thing to do. While i'm not knocking synergy, sitting in 1 place to level it is such a hassle to a non crafter. That's why i TP scorpion and WS ruszor (yeah i'm cheap) to save time/money/energy.

[Helel]

So adaman ingots are now 70k. This means that at minimum (not counting fewell and firesand costs) a stack of bullets currently costs 35k. I love ranger, but I'm always wary to play it because I feel like I'm hindering my ability to upgrade my mythic. The enhance recycle effect on the beret helps, but it's not enough. Please please please fix this issue so we don't have to think twice about playing this job. You shouldn't be penalized for wanting to play it...

[Mirabelle]

So adaman ingots are now 70k. This means that at minimum (not counting fewell and firesand costs) a stack of bullets currently costs 35k. I love ranger, but I'm always wary to play it because I feel like I'm hindering my ability to upgrade my mythic. The enhance recycle effect on the beret helps, but it's not enough. Please please please fix this issue so we don't have to think twice about playing this job. You shouldn't be penalized for wanting to play it...

Yes while gil is easier than ever to obtain, SE has started throwing in a ton of gil sinks of late. Heavy metal plates, forgotten items, geodes and -ites, voiddust, etc are all competing for this gil over ammo. But I don't see SE changing things. They've really jumped the shark of late with their ideas and nothing for the better is happening at all.

[Helel]

The only reason I posted was because they said they were going to address this issue. It may have been on the COR forums, or in this very topic (I'm too lazy to check), but the fact is, they've made it WORSE. 70k per ingot? Seriously? I go through about 4-5 stacks per 3 hours of voidwatch. SE, do you really expect players to have to pay 100k/hour to play RNG?

[Gaspee]

I agree, the ammo situation is quite dire. On Bismarck a stack of Adaman bullet bags is 1.1mil. And that's even if they are up for sale, which they frequently aren't.

[Fyreus]

I think it's time to 5/5 recycling and fish out that stupid af2 hat out of storage :/

Stacks of gargoille arrows are 50k each on sylph and jishu eats those things alive. 2 stacks every half hour >_<

[Nynja]

I think it's time to 5/5 recycling and fish out that stupid af2 hat out of storage :/

Stacks of gargoille arrows are 50k each on sylph and jishu eats those things alive. 2 stacks every half hour >_<

Theres no reason it should cost that much, at all...

Arrowheads:
Gargouille Horn 1k (easy to cleave farm in vunk)
Bone Chip 150g?
Wind Crystal 500g?

Fletchings:
Peapuk Wing x2 1k each (easy to cleave farm in vunk)
Wind Crystal 500g

Arrowwood lumber
10g npc


From my experience synthing them, it takes about 15 earth feedings and 5 wind feedings, depending how you manipulate the fewell and leaks...at 3k per fewell orb, comes to about 60 gil per feeding, so roughly 1200g per feeding. Comes to about 6k per stack.

You're getting ripped off hardcore at 50k per stack

[Saelae]

Theres no reason it should cost that much, at all...

Arrowheads:
Gargouille Horn 1k (easy to cleave farm in vunk)
Bone Chip 150g?
Wind Crystal 500g?

Fletchings:
Peapuk Wing x2 1k each (easy to cleave farm in vunk)
Wind Crystal 500g

Arrowwood lumber
10g npc


From my experience synthing them, it takes about 15 earth feedings and 5 wind feedings, depending how you manipulate the fewell and leaks...at 3k per fewell orb, comes to about 60 gil per feeding, so roughly 1200g per feeding. Comes to about 6k per stack.

You're getting ripped off hardcore at 50k per stack

Math is a bit off actually, each synth of arrowheads/fletchings produces 6 on NQ.

Arrowheads: 1650 / 6 = 275

Fletchings: 2500 / 6 = ~417

275 + 417 + 10 + 1200 = 1902

1902 * 12 + Carnations = ~23.5k for a stack of quivers


50k for a stack of quivers is the most I would pay anyone for this, easily double your investment, and more than fair for the low amount of risk involved. Yet somehow people think these are worth 400k+ for a stack and wonder why they sell so slowly. List a fair price and people will buy them.

[Mirabelle]

Math is a bit off actually, each synth of arrowheads/fletchings produces 6 on NQ.

Arrowheads: 1650 / 6 = 275

Fletchings: 2500 / 6 = ~417

275 + 417 + 10 + 1200 = 1902

1902 * 12 + Carnations = ~23.5k for a stack of quivers


50k for a stack of quivers is the most I would pay anyone for this, easily double your investment, and more than fair for the low amount of risk involved. Yet somehow people think these are worth 400k+ for a stack and wonder why they sell so slowly. List a fair price and people will buy them.

This is all people are asking. Not to be held to a king's ransom be synergists.

Of course the hardcore answer is level synergy. But unfortunately not everyone plays this game all day and can manage levelling synergy, attending LS events, farming dyna, completing empy/relic/mythic trials with a RL schedule.

If there was an NPC synergist for ammo where we could farm our ingredients and have him make ammo for a nominal markup. These 300% markups are killing me.

[Komachii]

Really annoying, gargouille horn has rly sucky drop, its difficult to find a bonecrafter who is willing to do it,partly because some of them are making arrows with their friends/alternate char whatever and protecting their market.
Guess its the same for bullets between smithing guys and alchemists.

[Nynja]

My bad
I have a bad habit of starting a number crunch for something, then i lose track and get the number for something related but not what i started.

[Fyreus]

The price in the eyes of the bow/gun user actually changes a bit more when you acquire a lower hit build (3hit or so depending on atmas/traits/gear/etc or less in VWNM) which means that 50k stack of 99 end up being 2 arrows or less if you only WS them after a few fights especially if you don't recycle... 33 ws = 1 stack. Some days i swap out of rng and onto dnc/drk/smn/blu/??? and cash in stuff to deal with the upkeep for that job as well as the others.

While people will say something about farming i'd like to point out the perpetual loss over time for those who might want to buy armor upgrades or would rather spend money on devious die-that-don't-drop/heavy plates/liminal-things-that-don't-drop. What i spend on food and arrows a day kinda puts me back 1 die/residue a day IF they pop up at a reasonable price.

I haven't had the time to check out the new adjustments but for a rng we need a strong bow/gun and strong arrow to catch up with those who's weapons do half or a quarter of our weapon's base damage in this game.

We consistently compete for slots/damage and are an AH/crafting/synergy dependent class. Please reevaluate our ammo.

[Sequdaz]

Farming for 3+ hours should never be the option for any player willing to play RNG. Never.

We need ammunition to be sold by NPC at a cheap price(1~90gil per), crafters do not make nor sell the ammo at proper rate to care about their market as they got none here. (http://www.ffxiah.com/search/item?&slots[]=8&jobs[]=2048&description=DMG&fields[0]=2&order[0]=1#adv)

[Psxpert2011]

In regards to making new ammo, and making ammo more readily available in general, the development team is still looking into a variety of things, so please wait a bit more.

Currently the main reason high level ammo is not being circulated is due to the difficulty of obtaining the materials. We will be making adjustments in the upcoming version update so that these material items will be more prevalent and as a result the circulation of ammo should increase and prices should go down.


There you go, talking like it's a world of difference...
__SE asked for what pet the community wanted more for bst and they was ignored. Something this trivial they shouldn't even have bat an eye. I don't think ammo is expensive and quite frankly, they're woodworkers best clients. Players are mad cuase they think they're getting played but the game's fine and functioning.
__All we need is more gatherers for mats and for that to happen, drops need to increase. We need better success rate for crafters to deliver goods because mats would be cheaper and easier to obtain.

People who play this game (as if it was WoW) don't see the adventure and the journey as part of the fun. Maybe they should move on or STOP being cheap-skates. Many goal oriented adventurers would probably help if you just ask but it wasn't easy to lvl craft either, that's how they make their gil. Smart way to lvl. rng is if you have funds rolling in, lvl woodworking, cloth and bone-craft. It'll be well worth your time and energy plus profitable.

I got my Rng to 61 will low lvl ammo and done decent dmg(triple digits). I have a Loxley Bow and a War Bow+1 and do awesome dmg even with low level ammo(lv.30~55 ammo- quadruple digits!). I use my lv.60+ ammo for fun and to steal hate from Mnks and Plds but hey, I sub nin when doing that! Learn how to play your job, get good gear, equipment and use your abilities right. Oh, don't forget to skill up your range weapons... you'll need skill too!

DEX gear can destroy mobs and maybe leave you dead in the process too. For what I've learned so far and skilled, Rng can be as dangerous as blm... I wouldn't worry so much about the cost( that's really irrelevant). As I recall, Rng is an advance job, "keep away from children".

[Feliciaa]

DEX gear can destroy mobs and maybe leave you dead in the process too. For what I've learned so far and skilled, Rng can be as dangerous as blm... I wouldn't worry so much about the cost( that's really irrelevant). As I recall, Rng is an advance job, "keep away from children".

DEX gear......... Riiiiiiiight...... ANYWAY, It's sad that in 2012 you need multiple high level crafts to play RNG at its best. I really hope the design team considers RNG + COR ammo as part of the crafting changes that are about to come. Not only is ammo in short supply but the cost to even buy the ammo is way out of hand.

[Mirabelle]

I thought its time to bump this topic as I'm sure everyone is noticing ammo prices getting ridiculously high again:
Adaman Bullets 120k/stack
Orichalcum Bullets 80k/stack
Gargouille arrows 50K/stack (ooo a bargain)

Last stand costs 2.5k/ws. Jishnu's costs 1.5k/ws.

Normally I wouldn't be too upset about ammo costs excpet for the fact that I have 3000 HMP's to pay for empy gun and bow and would rather spend my gil on that than restocking ammo.

And sadly it doesn't seem to be crafter gouging these days since the price of an adaman ingot is 90k and orichalcum ingot is 50k. So even if I levelled synergy, I'd still have to spend a large chunk of gil for ammo.

So I'm beseeching the Dev team once again to make some adjustment to ammo costs. There are currently enough time sinks in this game. Wasting large quantities of gil on ammo rather than HMP's shouldn't be one of them.

[Hohenheim]

The secret is to use crossbows, adaman bolts make out like a bandit ;D

SE could do with changing how the adaman bullet synth works too. IIrc, it's one ingot that makes 99-297 bullets, perhaps they should change it to be more similar to arrow and bolts synths, where you have the additional median of arrow/bolt heads. That would help increase the supply without even needing to increase the stock of craftable items; make adaman gunshells or somethingl 1ingot -> 6gunshells, 1 gunshell ->99-297 bullets. (even though it defies logic, but then 1 bolt head to make 99-297 bolts does too ^^)

[Mirabelle]

The secret is to use crossbows, adaman bolts make out like a bandit ;D

SE could do with changing how the adaman bullet synth works too. IIrc, it's one ingot that makes 99-297 bullets, perhaps they should change it to be more similar to arrow and bolts synths, where you have the additional median of arrow/bolt heads. That would help increase the supply without even needing to increase the stock of craftable items; make adaman gunshells or somethingl 1ingot -> 6gunshells, 1 gunshell ->99-297 bullets. (even though it defies logic, but then 1 bolt head to make 99-297 bolts does too ^^)

There are oodles of solutions to the problem. Increase supply of ingots. Increase output per mats used. If supply massively outstrips demand then prices will fall. I recall SE promising some help when we were complaining about Oberon's and Dweomer bullets. They've done nothing but made it more expensive to play the job.

I'm just hoping if threads like this keep going the Devs will feel obligated to act.

RNG and COR are my favorite and best geared jobs but it burns me to play them when a run of VWNM costs me more in ammo than I get from loot and cruor.

[Nala]

Posted under the new director thread, like it if my idea is sound otherwise tell me where my logic is flawed.

[Okipuit]

Fellow rangers,

I have some great news! The lead developer is proceeding to analyze the cost for ammo made via synthesis and synergy, as well as considering ways for rangers to be more conservative through job abilities.

We definitely appreciate the feedback provided so far in this and the Producer Matsui (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/26797-Let-Producer-Matsui-Know-How-He-Should-Catch-Up-on-2-Years!) suggestion thread; they will be take into consideration. However, if you have any left over concrete feedback you would like to provide or if there is a really great suggestion that you feel must be implemented, please let us know!

[Helel]

Fellow rangers,

I have some great news! The lead developer is proceeding to analyze the cost for ammo made via synthesis and synergy, as well as considering ways for rangers to be more conservative through job abilities.

We definitely appreciate the feedback provided so far in this and the Producer Matsui (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/26797-Let-Producer-Matsui-Know-How-He-Should-Catch-Up-on-2-Years!) suggestion thread; they will be take into consideration. However, if you have any left over concrete feedback you would like to provide or if there is a really great suggestion that you feel must be implemented, please let us know!

Awesome, thanks guys. It would feel kind of weird to have to use a JA to conserve ammo unless there are other benefits to using the JA. I think tacking recycle onto velocity shot, or simply making it a native RNG trait, would be a great. If you have a super cool JA ability in mind then disregard!

[Luvbunny]

Simply by altering the ways you can make ammunition would be a great help - or have vendor that sells the materials at reasonable price, or buy direct ammo from them. The goal is to make the job accessible and not restricted by gils and materials.

[scaevola]

It really doesn't seem like a difficult problem to fix; just increase synergy yield and put firesand at a low price on an NPC vendor.

They HAVE made good on their promise to increase the flow of ingots, but they way in which they've done it (random "bust" rewards from events that give crafting materials and Abyssea gold boxes) has made this increase in supply so erratic that the people getting them are encouraged to vend them all and the RNGs/CORs don't get to see any benefit.

[Nala]

Or the general recipe concept revamped, arrow/bolt heads (base material + base material yeilds 6-12) shaft (relatively cheap) + fletchings (2x wings/feathers yeilds 6-12 relatively cheap) yields 33-99 (or 99-297 for higher tier synergy recipes)

Bullets Ingot (base material) + fire sand (relatively cheap) yields 33-99 (99-297)

So in the case of adaman bullets beyond the fact that they are needed for high level smithing there is also a yield inequality or imbalance, generally with bolt/arrow heads they use 1/2 expensive/rare base materials but an intermediate syth stretches them out to 6 more syths as opposed to the 1 syth you get from bullets.

So to put that into perspective arrows can be produced at a 6:1 ratio by comparison using the recipes alone, now this doesnt even take into consideration that adaman ingots are already more expensive then most arrow/bolt recipe components (well even if you are talking about adaman bolts still 6:1)

My solution introduce shell casing's (shaft type intermediate and generic go between for all bullet recopies = arrow wood, perhaps add an alternate type cannon shell for use with a neo culverin type weapon and syth able cannon shells!) add an intermediate bullet/slug syth that stretches ingots out for bullet syths, could have a lower overall yield to keep bullets more expensive (nq yields 3 vice 6 or recipe requires 2 ingots but still yields 6)

Also considering that adaman is in high demand for crafters as well perhaps ontop of this add more sources of adaman.

ive posted this before a few times but since you are asking for specific input reiterating for consideration.

[Mayoyama]

Please allow all forms of ammo (bullets and arrows) to be bundled! still a number of arrows in particular that cant be bundled ):

[Onimeonokyo]

Need a headband that gives you infinite ammo.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Need a headband that gives you infinite ammo.

SNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAKE!!!!!

[xbobx]

First make all ammo that is synergy only be able to be made with synthesis. That was a very bone head move to restrict it in the first place and screw all the rangers that leveled crafts to make their own ammo.

[Crimson_Slasher]

I think increasing synthesis yield is a good start, but also another option that could be nice would be to place a Less efficient crafting npc(s) somewhere(s). Im thinking if you can provide say... An ingot(Or lumber) and the appropriate other materials, they exchange it for half the number of a normal quality synth of X ammo. Like if turning in the materials to normally make 99 adaman bullets, instead the npc takes them and exchanges them for 50 of said bullets. Im not sure this is the best option, just brainstorming.

[Garota]

Pst... Hey... And how about all that Rare/Ex Ammo? Aeolus Arrow, Vertex Arrow, Hightail Bullet, Heavy Shell, and Omphalos Bullet? Can you guys do the same thing you did with Temple Knights Arrow, Iron Musketeer Arrow, and Combat Caster Arrow?

[Mirabelle]

Great news that finally something is being done. I could suggest a billion ways to make it better. Lowered crafting requirements, easier access to ingots, npc vendors for supplies or ammo, new ammo that uses easily available ingredients, adding recycle as a level 30 job trait that increases in potency with higher levels for both RNG and COR, increase recycle potency on gear, make WS not expend ammo.

Well I guess that's not a billion, but it's still a goodly number of ideas. Anyone would make me happier.

[Dekar]

Pst... Hey... And how about all that Rare/Ex Ammo? Aeolus Arrow, Vertex Arrow, Hightail Bullet, Heavy Shell, and Omphalos Bullet? Can you guys do the same thing you did with Temple Knights Arrow, Iron Musketeer Arrow, and Combat Caster Arrow?

Unfortunately, they said no.


Greetings,

I have some feedback to share in regards to some of the suggestions in this thread for changing the functionality of Omphalos bullet.



While we understand that players are concerned about accidentally misfiring this item, unfortunately it is not possible to make so that it cannot be fired, such as certain throwing weapons that cannot be used, as it would also render it impossible to use Quick Draw with it.



The main reason why the Patriarch Protector’s arrow and Iron Musketeer's bolt was converted to the Combat Caster’s quiver/Iron Musketeer's quiver, which could be used to dispense ammo once every 168 hours, was to improve the situation where conquest points could not be spent on other items due to the need to replenish ammunition. As you may recall, it was quite difficult to earn conquest points at the time we introduced these quivers.

We understand that obtaining an Omphalos bullet is certainly not easy, but the high stats were set based on that factor and our stance is for players to take caution when changing out ammo, so we do not have plans of changing this.


http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/24999-Making-Omphalos-Bullet-a-Quickdraw-only-bullet

[Glamdring]

Fellow rangers,

I have some great news! The lead developer is proceeding to analyze the cost for ammo made via synthesis and synergy, as well as considering ways for rangers to be more conservative through job abilities.

We definitely appreciate the feedback provided so far in this and the Producer Matsui (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/26797-Let-Producer-Matsui-Know-How-He-Should-Catch-Up-on-2-Years!) suggestion thread; they will be take into consideration. However, if you have any left over concrete feedback you would like to provide or if there is a really great suggestion that you feel must be implemented, please let us know!

the biggest issue? ok, I know ranger is already a walking hate magnet if you play it only half-way competently, full bore and well, it was nice knowing you. That said, our damage numbers were majorly nerfed long ago, and we never really got them back. Put it this way, originally rng was a distance DD with damage that equalled a top flight blm, albeit without the ability to meaningfully target elemental weaknesses and at the cost of MB damage. So much so that rangers were interchangeable with BLM when building conventional parties. That was scaled WAY back, but our squshiness wasn't-in terms of our LACK of ability to take a hit we're still on par with blm. Worse, we weren't given anything to balance the loss of DD. Now in terms of basic internal balancing jobs have generally been designed such that the greater the ability to deal damage while not in harms way, the lower the ability to take a hit. that's the problem with ranger, there's nothing on the left of the = sign there. Our def and the like suck as much as they always did, but our damage simply doesn't justify it.

I'm not asking for our defensive abilities to be increased, please don't think in any way that I even want that discussion to happen. I want our DD back. Distance DD is no longer part of strategy building because it is no longer part of the game, at least in a viable way. On that subject, I think a few BLM would like to hop on this bandwagon, too. We want the ability to do our big numbers again. If that means you have to allow the traditional tanks to "stand up, grow a pair and put their big boy panties on" so be it; seems to me the tanks have been asking for just that anyway. We need the DD numbers to get back to their former glory, AND to scale into end-game proportionally. When a straight DD 2-hour like EES is easily outdone by a mediocre roll on a mid level weapon skill-or even just a regular crit hit for that matter-something is not just slightly warpped but in fact totally bent out of shape in the basic design of the job.

You are so fond of the term balance, so I'm asking, where is it in any of the above?

[Nala]

heh basically they need to first and foremost fix enmity for a level 99 environment, then give the proper tank classes newer abilities that actually compliment the enmity system overhaul and allow for tanking to be practical.

when given a full compliment of buffs rng doesn't slack as much as you would think, but there is a lack of snapshot gear, the only buff that adds snapshot is a roll, which is probably better spent towards chaos/tacticians. that and we have no real way of pulling through if we take too much hate too soon save dying. (though decoy shot is pretty awesome)

[Mirage]

I think there should be cheap mid-tier ammo available from NPCs, and then let crafters make the very best stuff. Let rangers and corsair just buy cheap and "all right" ammo for use in exp parties and lower difficulty NMs, and then they (or we, when i eventually get rng99) could spend extra money on the best ammo when it really mattered, such as on tough NMs and events where only maximum efficiency is good enough.

NPC ammo could for the most part have no stat boosts, just a dmg rating, and that dmg rating could be slightly lower than the "equivalent" crafted ammo. Additionally, you could add NPC ammo that had the same DMG as the best crafted ammo, but had stat penalties that made them unfeasible for use in the real hard endgame activities. For example, a lv99 rng with capped skill and accuracy bonus traits isn't going to get below 95% hit rate on DC enemies even if they equip ammo that has -10-20 ranged accuracy, but you would probably not want to use this kind of ammo in the events that actually matter. In these events, we would pull out our high-end, 100k-a-stack ammo that we could only get from crafters.

[Glamdring]

heh basically they need to first and foremost fix enmity for a level 99 environment, then give the proper tank classes newer abilities that actually compliment the enmity system overhaul and allow for tanking to be practical.

when given a full compliment of buffs rng doesn't slack as much as you would think, but there is a lack of snapshot gear, the only buff that adds snapshot is a roll, which is probably better spent towards chaos/tacticians. that and we have no real way of pulling through if we take too much hate too soon save dying. (though decoy shot is pretty awesome)

the full slat of buffs? that could be said about almost any job. my point is our base numbers; you can address most things in this game with a combo of buffs, gear, food, meds, picking a prey weak to your damage type and possibly atma effects depending on zone. But a discussion of job shortcomings should start with a solo, base gearred job with no buffs, otherwise you can't address a core issue, like EES being effectively nothing.

so, on that note, I loved playing with Xbows, using my elemental bolts and the like, coupled with actually being able to shoot at high speeds. Why isn't there a decent end-game Xbow? and don't say the mythic rocks, I know it looks sweet but the entire mythic system is stupid hard to complete, regardless of weapons, and the numbers that exist totally bear that out. Until they bring the difficulty down to something REASONABLE mythic simply isn't a viable path to take. And for the DPS junkies who insist you take gun, you are simply wrong. An Xbow that would scale into end-game levels would allow you to take almost 3 shots to every 1 with a gun, so while you would need to connect 5 times for every 2 gun connects, the damage from those 5 are about a wash-but with the added bonus of the stat or elemental effect on MOST bolts which-properly exploited-can even make them more efficient. Not to mention bloody bolts can keep you alive, can't say that about much in the gun world.

[Mirage]

Yeah. There should be a better crossbow selection as well. There's always Moros Crossbow, but something better wouldn't hurt either.

I'm a pretty recent ranger, anyway. I was looking into using that crossbow because I had already leveled marksmanship on a different job, but was adviced pretty strongly against it, and ended up spending a day skilling archery to 300+.

[Khajit]

the biggest issue? ok, I know ranger is already a walking hate magnet if you play it only half-way competently, full bore and well, it was nice knowing you. That said, our damage numbers were majorly nerfed long ago, and we never really got them back. Put it this way, originally rng was a distance DD with damage that equalled a top flight blm, albeit without the ability to meaningfully target elemental weaknesses and at the cost of MB damage. So much so that rangers were interchangeable with BLM when building conventional parties. That was scaled WAY back, but our squshiness wasn't-in terms of our LACK of ability to take a hit we're still on par with blm. Worse, we weren't given anything to balance the loss of DD. Now in terms of basic internal balancing jobs have generally been designed such that the greater the ability to deal damage while not in harms way, the lower the ability to take a hit. that's the problem with ranger, there's nothing on the left of the = sign there. Our def and the like suck as much as they always did, but our damage simply doesn't justify it.


Full bore blm back in the day was crap. It only looked like it was amazing damage because the DD didn't have the gear, food, didn't bother to parse or math out the damage done, and skillups were hard to get plus brds were exceedingly rare. Fast forward to when people had decent gear, food, skillups done,etc finally and your vaunted full bore blm was quickly realized to be garbage and banished to Mount Z.
SE has been slowly reversing the original nerf for years to the point where rng is actually stronger than it was pre nerf days outside of being able to melee for tp barring Kclub users. The problem is that DD have been getting better all this time to the point where they can uncap haste.

What you really need is a way to do ranged autoattacks and for the various buff jobs to increase snapshot so that rng can have similar buff levels to current melee. Making stuff like omphalos bullet stackable so that we can at least have our backups ready would probably help alleviate the rage incitement SE is doing with their current stances too.

[xbobx]

Although the idea on paper for auto attack seems good, I think they need to address the enmity. I have always felt that enmity was broken on ranged attack. I have seen many times where I won't attack a mob, but have left over tp and join in half way through the fight and ws and get hate. Yet, a sam has been hitting hitting hitting then do a 1.5k ws, I come in do a 1.7k ws and get hate. It just doesn't add up. Yet sam's equip had +enmity and I had over -25 enmity.

So when I am on ranger I always have to stop shooting to not pull hate, I hardly ever use barrage unless I am going for kill shots and double shot sits there because of the enmity issue.

[Afania]

Although the idea on paper for auto attack seems good, I think they need to address the enmity. I have always felt that enmity was broken on ranged attack. I have seen many times where I won't attack a mob, but have left over tp and join in half way through the fight and ws and get hate. Yet, a sam has been hitting hitting hitting then do a 1.5k ws, I come in do a 1.7k ws and get hate. It just doesn't add up. Yet sam's equip had +enmity and I had over -25 enmity.

So when I am on ranger I always have to stop shooting to not pull hate, I hardly ever use barrage unless I am going for kill shots and double shot sits there because of the enmity issue.

If your enmity is capped, mob will come for you after you WS regardless. Technically if your melee is on the NM full time, ranged job shouldn't pull hate unless your melee is gimp, or your enmity is capped already.

[Camate]

Hello!

Producer Matsui has been carefully looking into ways to address players’ concerns about ammo costs, and is planning on the below changes:


Recycle job trait


Instead of acquiring this trait via merit points, it will be learned naturally through leveling. The strength of the effect will increase in tiers depending on your level.
Adding merit points to the Recycle category will enhance the activation rate.



While there were other suggestions given as feedback, the development team feels that increasing the effect of Recycle holds the most benefit. They are still in the midst of discussing what would be a good amount to enhance it, but as a starting point they have currently mentioned a rate of 90% with the job trait, merit points, and equipment. Please note that they are not planning any kind of damage decrease to go along with these changes.

We will be sure to keep you posted on any additional information we hear!

[Kalilla]

Camate, there is a bit of confusion going on at the other forums atm.

Is this only for RNG? or will COR be receiving some love as well?

COR obviously doesn't need it as much as RNG, however it would be nice to know if both jobs are in the deal or if it's just RNG.

[Raksha]

90% recycle rate (@_@)

[Camate]

Camate, there is a bit of confusion going on at the other forums atm.

Is this only for RNG? or will COR be receiving some love as well?

COR obviously doesn't need it as much as RNG, however it would be nice to know if both jobs are in the deal or if it's just RNG.

From the looks of things this is a ranger specific change; however, I will double check with the development team to be certain.

[Kalilla]

Thank you Camate :)

[HimuraKenshyn]

90% breaks out my rng gear for a party.....

[Helel]

Holy **** thanks!

[Afania]

Camate, there is a bit of confusion going on at the other forums atm.

Is this only for RNG? or will COR be receiving some love as well?

COR obviously doesn't need it as much as RNG, however it would be nice to know if both jobs are in the deal or if it's just RNG.

The best RNG bullet is only 10k more expensive than best COR bullet on my server, plus many RNG uses gandiva which is a whole lot cheaper.

So no reason that RNG gets this and COR doesn't IMO. If COR can get it maybe ppl would stop TP/WS in bronze bullet ._.

[Lyberty]

Wow 90% recycle is awesome! Finally after so many nerfs we are getting some love back! :)

[Sapphires]

The best RNG bullet is only 10k more expensive than best COR bullet on my server, plus many RNG uses gandiva which is a whole lot cheaper.

So no reason that RNG gets this and COR doesn't IMO. If COR can get it maybe ppl would stop TP/WS in bronze bullet ._.

Since it will be a job trait, COR can just sub ranger if they want more recycle procs that badly.

COR has enough going for it already since they bring rolls to the table in addition to ranged damage, blanket traits for multiple jobs hurts diversity of jobs. So many Lazy aby burned COR will still TP with a bronze bullet and only use wildfire even if you gave them recycle as a job trait to a lesser extent.

Lets be honest who invites a RNG to something like voidwatch when they can get a wildfire cor unless they are super paranoid about procs and want someone to cover archery staggers. RNG is a bit overdue for some love.

I play COR and RNG, the game needs more RNGs playing with the best ammo, maybe we'll see more Annihilator RNGs around using adaman bullets now and see RNG being used in something else besides Odin v2/Legion

[Helel]

The best RNG bullet is only 10k more expensive than best COR bullet on my server, plus many RNG uses gandiva which is a whole lot cheaper.

So no reason that RNG gets this and COR doesn't IMO. If COR can get it maybe ppl would stop TP/WS in bronze bullet ._.

I agree COR should get the trait as well, though you have to take into consideration that COR shoots so much slower than RNG that the number of bullets they use is substantially lower. I play both jobs and I know that COR is much cheaper.

And anyone still using gandiva shouldn't be playing RNG in the first place, so you can discount all those individuals.

That said, a half-potency recycle trait would make sense. It's annoying trying to find people willing to play COR because the bullet costs are so high.

[Afania]

Since it will be a job trait, COR can just sub ranger if they want more recycle procs that badly.

COR has enough going for it already since they bring rolls to the table in addition to ranged damage, blanket traits for multiple jobs hurts diversity of jobs. So many Lazy aby burned COR will still TP with a bronze bullet and only use wildfire even if you gave them recycle as a job trait to a lesser extent.

Lets be honest who invites a RNG to something like voidwatch when they can get a wildfire cor unless they are super paranoid about procs and want someone to cover archery staggers. RNG is a bit overdue for some love.

I play COR and RNG, the game needs more RNGs playing with the best ammo, maybe we'll see more Annihilator RNGs around using adaman bullets now and see RNG being used in something else besides Odin v2/Legion

Why do you want to use gimp SJ to save money ._. You'd better off using better SJ and cheaper bullet ._. Also COR and RNG already sharing several job trait, I don't see what's wrong with 2 ranged job in this game getting same job trait to save gil. Heck even BLU has ranged attack job trait. Jobs like DW also gave to several jobs, so it's not uncommon for jobs to share job trait.

Able to roll is irrelevant, COR's output is already lower than RNG, and bullet still cost 90% of RNG ammo. That's like tossing a lot of money to deal subpar dmg, not worth it at all. After RNG gets recycle COR may ended up being more expensive than RNG, while still dealing subpar dmg, which just doesn't make sense.


As for COR v.s RNG thing in VW, it depend on who you already have and who you can get.

Although COR is more needed than RNG to VW, but you can really only have 2, unless you're focusing on magical DD on rex/bismarck. After you get 2 COR for each DD pt, it's probably better to get 1 RNG for proc and dmg. Of course, that's assuming the RNG is good and not too gimp. Most ppl skip RNG is not because RNG is a bad VW job, but rather how hard it is to find a good RNG that can actually DD. Same goes for DRG SAM etc, I skip those jobs all the time, but there are a few DRG SAM on the server I would want to invite them to DD pt.

[Sapphires]

Why do you want to use gimp SJ to save money ._.
Didn't say i would sub rng on cor to save ammo, i'm saying people could if they were really hard up for a recycle trait and corsairs shouldnt act so damn entitled when rangers get something.

Anyone sweating ammo costs should stay away from COR and RNG imo anyways and yeah sub /WAR - duh.
Not really looking forward to recycle being so potent that we have people bandwagoning on a job like they do with war+ukon or drk+rag

[Ryce]

They are still in the midst of discussing what would be a good amount to enhance it, but as a starting point they have currently mentioned a rate of 90% with the job trait, merit points, and equipment.

I don't know anything about the current activation rate of this trait, but I read this as a maximum 90% enhancement to it's current effect. Translation: If it's currently 10%, you can boost it to 19%.

I could be completely wrong here, but I'd hate to see people crying foul when this ends up being not as earth-shattering as it sounds.

[Sapphires]

I don't know anything about the current activation rate of this trait, but I read this as a maximum 90% enhancement to it's current effect. Translation: If it's currently 10%, you can boost it to 19%.

I could be completely wrong here, but I'd hate to see people crying foul when this ends up being not as earth-shattering as it sounds.

Without much effort you can get about 50% recycle just with scout beret, 5/5 recycle merits and libeccio mantle for rng.
People selling ammo will probably try to adjust their prices upward based on lower sales volume if people are able to hit 75%+ recycle rate with any further changes.
Personally i'd like to see them strike a balance on increasing availability of synthesis materials to curb the costs since stuff like adaman ore is pretty hard to come by.

[Camate]

I went ahead and checked with the development team about your question regarding corsair.

While the possibility is not zero for corsair to receive a Recycle job trait, in the event that they did, it would not be as strong as the effect ranger is to receive.

The current focus at the moment is for ranger adjustments, so once concrete plans for this have been decided we can look into this as well.

[Kalilla]

I went ahead and checked with the development team about your question regarding corsair.

While the possibility is not zero for corsair to receive a Recycle job trait, in the event that they did, it would not be as strong as the effect ranger is to receive.

The current focus at the moment is for ranger adjustments, so once concrete plans for this have been decided we can look into this as well.
Thanks for the follow-up Camate, appreciate it.

[Nebo]

CORs will see some love maybe in another few years.

The RNG update will be implemented before that time. But it will take so ridiculously long that the developement team will change their minds about it and consequently, it will not make it to the live servers.

"We appreciate your understanding and tolerance for the absurd amount of time it takes us to do....everything. Further communications will be sluggish and mostly irrlevant to actual game play mechanics...and your concerns."

-Thank you

[Cowardlybabooon]

Demand will go down, price will go up, corsair will pay the bills. Consider this sooner than later.

[Helel]

In response to some ridiculous JP posts about scout's beret +2, do NOT nerf this piece of equipment please. RNGs already have a hard time keeping up with TP gain when every other melee is operating under capped haste. I can't believe people are even questioning whether to use the piece in the first place. Anyone who knows what they're doing should be using the beret right now... This should be a buff, not a nerf.

[Afania]

Didn't say i would sub rng on cor to save ammo, i'm saying people could if they were really hard up for a recycle trait and corsairs shouldnt act so damn entitled when rangers get something.

Anyone sweating ammo costs should stay away from COR and RNG imo anyways and yeah sub /WAR - duh.
Not really looking forward to recycle being so potent that we have people bandwagoning on a job like they do with war+ukon or drk+rag

Nobody is acting damn entitled to get everything ranger get, more like you just want RNG to be so unique, try harder. I was merely stating the fact that tossing gil to do subpar dmg is pointless. And considering it's very hard to get a decent COR due to the cost of the ammo(majority of the player isn't interested in playing ranged job properly due to the cost), this actually benefits everyone who is into endgame, playing COR or not. If you're into endgame, you most likely will pt with another COR. Out of all CORs I've known on my server, I know maybe 3 player, including myself, full time most expensive bullet. Everyone else all using bronze/steel and rarely shoot for TP. That means everytime me, or you, or another player pt with a cheap COR, entire pt output is lowered because nobody want to use more expensive bullet and would rather gimp themselves. And that hurts everyone in the ally.

If I'm going to act as if COR so damn entitled to get everything ranger gets, I'd ask for velocity shot, ask for A rank skill level, ask for relic access, ask for A.bullet, ask every single offensive job trait Ranger has, but I didn't. COR getting recycle doesn't increase COR's output, doesn't make it surpass RNG in terms of DDing, it doesn't change the job AT ALL. It just makes this job less expensive to play and that benefits everyone who brings a COR to endgame scene. "Don't play COR if you can't afford it" is a poor arguement, because you will need to bring COR to endgame no matter what, so if nobody want to play COR due to the cost, then you get no COR and your RNG + other DD will do piss poor dmg.


Make COR cheaper to play with, it not only benefits ppl already playing COR, but also a good incentive for more ppl to play COR, and easier to find a COR full time best bullet when you need one in ally. I fail to see why anyone would against it when everyone gets benefit.

[Ryx]

Hello!

Producer Matsui has been carefully looking into ways to address players’ concerns about ammo costs, and is planning on the below changes:


Recycle job trait


Instead of acquiring this trait via merit points, it will be learned naturally through leveling. The strength of the effect will increase in tiers depending on your level.
Adding merit points to the Recycle category will enhance the activation rate.



While there were other suggestions given as feedback, the development team feels that increasing the effect of Recycle holds the most benefit. They are still in the midst of discussing what would be a good amount to enhance it, but as a starting point they have currently mentioned a rate of 90% with the job trait, merit points, and equipment. Please note that they are not planning any kind of damage decrease to go along with these changes.

We will be sure to keep you posted on any additional information we hear!

Camate, please tell Director Matsui this: Don't waste your time with insignificant gimmicks, focus on the real issues the jobs are facing.

I would like to call attention to what was said in the "Job Adjustments Manifesto" ( http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/11485-FINAL-FANTASY-XI-Job-Adjustmentｓ-Manifesto )




Vision
Hunters who use the wisdom they gain from tracking Vana'dielian beasts to deliver excruciatingly painful and precise attacks from long range, yet almost never draw the target's attention away from the front lines.

We plan to enhance rangers' ability to stay out of sight and out of the minds of their targets while rewarding their long-distance efforts.
Example Adjustments

Adding the effect of Subtle Blow to ranged attacks that are unleashed from a suitable distance.
Adding an effect to ranged attacks from an enemy's side or back that reduces enmity.
Adding an ability that increases enmity towards party members positioned between the ranger and his/her target.


Nowhere in that list do you see ammo as a concern. It's a trivial matter compared to the real issues surrounding Ranger: HATE.

Ranger deals its best damage at a distance, but when Ranger deals its best damage, it draws the monster's attention. Ranger draws the monster's attention, the monster chases the Ranger, drawing the monster away from the melee who are on it, and reducing Ranger's damage by no longer being at a distance.

It's really pushed a reliance on the relic weapons, Yoichinoyumi and Annihilator, because of their fixed-hate weapon skills, and even that's not enough to keep them out of trouble, as the white damage on those weapons is crazy.

The third example turned out to be Decoy shot, and it helps, but it's not nearly enough. We were promised a TRAIT enmity reduction based on our position, and that hasn't come through for us. Ranger has NO defensive ability to speak of, is severely lacking in damage reduction gear, and inconveniences everyone else when they pull hate unless they're standing in melee range and that's exactly what you're NOT supposed to do on Ranger.

I'm not saying the natural recycle is a terrible idea for Ranger, but I don't want you to think "We gave Rangers natural recycle (that we don't really need), so we're not going to give you an enmity reduction trait (that we DO NEED)." The current situation is such that a person basically NEEDS a relic weapon in order to be able to play the job as it's intended.

That's my feelings on the matter. I'm all for seeing Ranger get some much-needed love, but give us what we need, not some silly distraction.

-Ryx

[Afania]

I'm not saying the natural recycle is a terrible idea for Ranger, but I don't want you to think "We gave Rangers natural recycle (that we don't really need), so we're not going to give you an enmity reduction trait (that we DO NEED)." The current situation is such that a person basically NEEDS a relic weapon in order to be able to play the job as it's intended.

That's my feelings on the matter. I'm all for seeing Ranger get some much-needed love, but give us what we need, not some silly distraction.

-Ryx

I wouldn't say cheaper cost isn't silly distraction nor "don't really need", when there are many times a player is being asked to come RNG or COR to help out, and player refused to and would rather come another job because he/she isn't in the mood of spending a couple hundred K of gil just to help. Plenty of ppl did that, including some relic RNG. I did that(sometimes) too, if LS want me to help a random VW which I don't need anything and don't get any benefit, I can. But I can't promise that I'm always in the mood to spend a couple hundred K just to help friend/LS. Either I'm coming another job(as previous post stated, don't play it if you can't afford it. So why should I play it if I can't afford it?), or you sponsor my bullet. And I'm not the only one doing that, plenty of well geared anni RNG does it too, that they often demand to come mage if they're not in the mood to spend a couple hundred K to help LS/friend.

Cheaper cost address the issue that you can get ppl to play the job easier when the pt needs it. Of course I'm not saying hate issue for none-relic RNG isn't important. But there's a reason why RNG and COR are one of the least played job in FFXI. In the case of COR, it's very high demand and still one of the least played job.

[Glamdring]

I have to wonder sometimes, if rng and cor were PLAYED as much as nin would we see ammo availability like there is with nin tools? after all, as a crafter what's the point in putting anything on AH when it never sells?

[hiko]

Demand will go down, price will go up, corsair will pay the bills. Consider this sooner than later.


Orichalc. Bullet x99 97 [Ammo] All Races
DPS: 2225 DMG:89 Delay:240 "Magic Atk. Bonus"+2
LV 97 RNG COR
80,000k
(0.872 sold/day;
Pouch*1: 2.433 sold/day;
p*12: 0.160 sold/day


Adaman Bullet x99 98 [Ammo] All Races
DPS: 3175 DMG:127 Delay:240
LV 98 RNG
100,000k

4.139 sold/day
pouch*1: 5.785 sold/day



Gargouille Arrow x99 97 [Ammo] All Races
DPS: 3400 DMG:51 Delay:90 Ranged Accuracy+5
LV 97 RNG
40,000k

1.173 sold/day
q*1: 0.448 sold/day
q*12: 2.904 sold/day



ammo used: arrow> Abullet >Obullet
cor can't use arrow nor Abullet

[Psxpert2011]

They need to just add a npc that sells all ammo types at a cheap price. It's really sad when having the most current ammo makes a player seem like a elite RNG.

I like this idea and any others related. There are NPCs who make quivers, let there be NPCs that also make arrow for a flat rate. This can help crafters(or not) but mainly rangers who don't have the craft. Just bring the MATs and cook up some arrows!!

This in turn may lower AH prices to something reasonable instead of price abusing.

[Glamdring]

I like this idea and any others related. There are NPCs who make quivers, let there be NPCs that also make arrow for a flat rate. This can help crafters(or not) but mainly rangers who don't have the craft. Just bring the MATs and cook up some arrows!!

This in turn may lower AH prices to something reasonable instead of price abusing.

I can see where they wouldn't want to do an NPC for ammo MANUFACTURE as this is a player income source. That being said, the obvious answer is an in-game buletin board service allowing players to commission ammo from a crafter for hire. The fact is, the bulletin board could also have other uses, like planning for an event and the like as well, hiring a mercenary crew to help with a certain battle, etc. This would strictly be posting only, for security you would want to have all dealings via message/tell and deliveries via DB and/or direct trade UNLESS SE wants to do something crazy hard like an in-game escrow service. Face it, no one would want to trade 500k in crafting materials only to see the guy log and disappear, then AH the mats on their mule. Problem is, I suggested an in-game BBS once before and I seem to recall I got an answer shooting it down, but also saying these forums were not an appropriate place either to do the advertising.

UPDATE: I forgot the "wanted" bazaar feature on ffxiah, you could work a commission there if you wanted to, I've used it a couple times for items that never stay on AH, no fees. not sure how you would message in that it's a commission, not a sale.

Hm... sounds like a business opportunity here...

[Helel]

Is this update planned for December or do I have to continue spending 500k per event to play RNG?

[Feanorsof]

Can we have an update on this please? Ammo has reached 200k a stack for bullets now, are these changes scheduled for the next update?

[Mirabelle]

Can we have an update on this please? Ammo has reached 200k a stack for bullets now, are these changes scheduled for the next update?

Think RNG is totally forgotten now. SE is concentrating on new expansion and how to screw up two new jobs.