View Full Version : Common Courtesy
How much should it matter in this game?
A player named Pewpeww shouted for a YOYD "Horns of War". After I clarified that the Behemoth Tongue still drops in Horns of War per this post:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/5782-Dev-1009-Force-Pop-HNM-s-FTW?p=80514#post80514
He sent me a tell saying that he'll give me a chance to lot BB item on both his and his LS-mate's orb if it dropped.
When it was my turn (3rd/last) the Tongue still had not dropped. I asked if I still get to keep my shank if my orb didn't drop Tongue. He said that wasn't part of the deal I made, that it wasn't his fault I misinterpret the deal.
"The deal was not for the BB item itself, but the chance for you to lot it if it drops on our orb. Even if it doesn't drop on your orb, we still get your shank. You misinterpret the deal, not our fault."
Is this what you call a "Confidence Man Tactic"? Cuz through the "fine print/contract" he is right, but not through the "General Perception" or "Common Courtesy" way.
Zyeriis
05-16-2011, 02:59 PM
You misunderstood, not his fault. Always get clarification before signing up, never make assumptions.
Isnt this a game built around common courtesy though?
You try to do an NM, others are already there. Both groups take turns.
Zyeriis
05-16-2011, 03:13 PM
Isnt this a game built around common courtesy though?
You try to do an NM, others are already there. Both groups take turns.
Not a good comparison (also, not everyone waits their turn like you would hope). He said he'd give you a chance not that if it dropped that you could keep it without being lotted against. If anything, he gave you a concession, you merely misunderstood the concession. By agreeing to that concession, you agreed to let other people, also have that concession, should the item have dropped on your orb. What he did was common courtesy.
Side Note: Not sure what you mean by "your shank". I can only make the assumption that it was referring to them getting everything else that drops on your orb. If that's the case, you made a bad deal and shouldn't have used your orb. You will need to clarify this before continuing.
Not a good comparison (also, not everyone waits their turn like you would hope). He said he'd give you a chance not that if it dropped that you could keep it without being lotted against. If anything, he gave you a concession, you merely misunderstood the concession. By agreeing to that concession, you agreed to let other people, also have that concession, should the item have dropped on your orb. What he did was common courtesy.
I don't see how it's common courtesy to "sign a contract to willingly give away stuff even if the item I want doesn't drop". It's a "Confidence Man Tactic"! "You are stupid and naive, we took advantage of that." How is that common courtesy?
Plus, the shout was clearly for a "YOYD" run.
Side Note: Not sure what you mean by "your shank". I can only make the assumption that it was referring to them getting everything else that drops on your orb. If that's the case, you made a bad deal and shouldn't have used your orb. You will need to clarify this before continuing.
I did not trade my orb at all when I was told this. and the shank is the "Beastly Shank" used to force pop Behemoth in "Behemoth's Dominion".
Arcon
05-16-2011, 03:23 PM
I'm not sure if I fully understand what you said, but if I got this right, the deal was that you could lot BB items in return for them lotting the shank?
lowkey
05-16-2011, 03:24 PM
Isnt this a game built around common courtesy though?
Yes, but only up to the point where it isn't. Like when it becomes inconvenient. Pretty much like real life.
The one thing I've noticed, over and over in this game over the last 7 years or so, is that many people will bend over backwards to help strangers out, provided they don't stand to gain anything at all from it. Throw in the opportunity for personal gain in the process though, and those same players become the most selfish, unreasonable people imaginable.
I'm not sure if I fully understand what you said, but if I got this right, the deal was that you could lot BB items in return for them lotting the shank?
Yes, and when it was down to the last orb (mine) no Tongue had dropped, so I asked "So if the TONGUE still doesnt drop, I get to keep shank right? Since it is MY orb."
"No, the deal was for a CHANCE to lot the TONGUE on our orbs in return for your shank. Not for the item itself. You misunderstood."
Arcon
05-16-2011, 03:47 PM
Yes, and when it was down to the last orb (mine) no Tongue had dropped, so I asked "So if the TONGUE still doesnt drop, I get to keep shank right? Since it is MY orb."
"No, the deal was for a CHANCE to lot the TONGUE on our orbs in return for your shank. Not for the item itself. You misunderstood."
Sorry then, but I'll have to side with them. That's actually a common occurence, and it seems logical to me. If you think about it, they put their own time into helping you kill it, the fact that it's only a chance at the item is irrelevant, because that's what it always is, it's a calculated risk. If you put yourself in their shoes, it's just the same thing, they were expecting to get a chance at a shank, that's why they agreed to team up with you. However, if you now say they can only have it if the tongue doesn't drop, that lowers their chance at a shank to 25% of that what it would normally be, so one quarter the chance they previously had. That is pretty significant, they may not have agreed to this in the first place.
Imo it can't just be written off as a lack of common courtesy, because it would be a significant loss on their part. As I said, this is a quite commonplace deal, trade the chance at some items for a chance at others, regardless of the outcome, and imo it's perfectly fair like that.
The one thing I've noticed, over and over in this game over the last 7 years or so, is that many people will bend over backwards to help strangers out, provided they don't stand to gain anything at all from it. Throw in the opportunity for personal gain in the process though, and those same players become the most selfish, unreasonable people imaginable.
I don't know where you made that observation, but it seems you're not anywhere near where I've been.
Me and most people I know often help random strangers with anything, often even refusing rewards. Maybe you confuse it with something else, I had this happen once on a Yaanei shout. Someone asked for help, said he didn't want any drops. So I invite him and say we're ready to go, and after a while it was dead, I personally got red and blue and kept myself alive while he stood and watched, Aias Bonnet dropped. He got win, Atma and then wanted to lot still. I told him he said he didn't want any items, to which he countered "but I was here too, it's only fair". So I let him have it and warped.
Maybe the thing about an "opportunity for personal gain" is because it's something annoying and tedious, and you wouldn't do it normally, especially when there's plenty of other people who would. So if someone tells you you can have some form of a reward (items, gil, whatever) which you actually want, and that convinces you to go help them, then you are entitled to it. There's nothing selfish about it, you made a deal, both sides are supposed to keep up their part.
Zyeriis
05-16-2011, 03:51 PM
I don't see how it's common courtesy to "sign a contract to willingly give away stuff even if the item I want doesn't drop". It's a "Confidence Man Tactic"! "You are stupid and naive, we took advantage of that." How is that common courtesy?
Plus, the shout was clearly for a "YOYD" run.
I did not trade my orb at all when I was told this. and the shank is the "Beastly Shank" used to force pop Behemoth in "Behemoth's Dominion".
I don't think your following me here. The shout was YOYD, you asked for something that went against that, and he said yes (this is a concession as it broke the pre-established rule, the very same rule you are arguing that would've prevented you from making the deal in the first place). The deal, from what I read, was that they removed the YOYD rule from one specific item, that item being the Tongue. Not that it matters, but you didn't make mention of the shank in your line about the tell you sent him. I am led to believe that the deal you made to allow the exception to the YOYD pre-established rule regarding the Tongue was agreed upon under the condition that the same be done for the Shank, thus adding another exception to the rule (the shank). Meaning, had the shank dropped on one of their orbs, you would've been able to lot it as well.
As you didn't ask specifically whether or not you would be the only one allowed to lot the Tongue (regardless of whether other people could lot the shank) before-hand, what occurred was in no-way his fault. He said what he meant, you made an assumption. In the end, you didn't lose anything, other than the time it took to do the first two runs, you should consider yourself lucky for not losing anything during such a misunderstanding. Next time, ask for specific clarification before joining. Think of it as common courtesy toward yourself. (Common courtesy doesn't fall under the jurisdiction of the person you are making the deal with to make absolutely sure you know what said deal is, if not asked for clarification, which tbh in this case, he did when he said "chance to lot".)
Edit: You also tried to change the deal right before your orb, which honestly, is pretty rude and no one would ever agree to that. If anything, you were the one trying to break the deal, AFTER they had used their orbs, which, let's face it, is the exact opposite of common courtesy.
Imo it can't just be written off as a lack of common courtesy, because it would be a significant loss on their part. As I said, this is a quite commonplace deal, trade the chance at some items for a chance at others, regardless of the outcome, and imo it's perfectly fair like that.
It is a lack of courtesy cuz they preyed on my naivety by pulling this Confidence Man tactic.
And this was a "YOYD" run. How is it a significant loss for them? It would've been a enormous loss for me whose only reason for going there was the the Behemoth Tongue. If the tongue had not dropped on my orb, I would've had to given my Shank to them and receive nothing from a "YOYD" run.
"Nothing from a YOYD run."
Cuz the only worthwhile drops from Horns of War is either Tongue, or Shank for another chance at Tongue.
What server calls it shank? We call it loot.
Anyway, sounds kind of greedy to me. I can understand where you're coming from, but from a third person's point of view, it does seem greedy. Wanting BB item plus all of your items.
I don't think your following me here. The shout was YOYD, you asked for something that went against that, and he said yes (this is a concession as it broke the pre-established rule, the very same rule you are arguing that would've prevented you from making the deal in the first place).
He offered it in the first place by sending me a tell.
Again, all of that is kaput cuz isn't this going against the nature of common courtesy towards even your fellow man? They were trying to take something from me and in return I received nothing.
I don't know how else to describe it. A Capitalist Way of Thinking? A Republican Way of Thinking? A Confidence Man tactic?
I wanted to believe in the good-natured will of people. Not to have words be thrown about and twisted like he did.
What server calls it shank? We call it loot.
Anyway, sounds kind of greedy to me. I can understand where you're coming from, but from a third person's point of view, it does seem greedy. Wanting BB item plus all of your items.
no no no, it is an actual item "Beastly Shank", used to force spawn Behemoth.
If my orb had dropped a BB item, I would've gladly given them my "Beastly Shank" since I don't care for D. Ring at this point.
But if the BB item DIDN'T drop, I would've wanted to keep "Beastly Shank" to force spawn Behemoth, get his "Savory Shank" and force spawn "King Behemoth" for a chance at Tongue again.
SE: "You didn't get a Behemoth Tongue from this BCNM? Here take this Beastly Shank and kill 2 more NMs for another chance at it!"
Zyeriis
05-16-2011, 04:04 PM
He offered it in the first place by sending me a tell.
Again, all of that is kaput cuz isn't this going against the nature of common courtesy towards even your fellow man? They were trying to take something from me and in return I received nothing.
I don't know how else to describe it. A Capitalist Way of Thinking? A Republican Way of Thinking? A Confidence Man tactic?
I wanted to believe in the good-natured will of people. Not to have words be thrown about and twisted like he did.
Only need to change "you asked for" to "he asked if you wanted " and "he said yes" to "you said yes" in the second sentence I made. Refer to the edit on my previous post at the bottom. He increased your chances at getting the Tongue with this deal while increasing his chances at getting the Shank. Where's the fault exactly? Other than you trying to back out because it was your turn and it hadn't dropped yet?
Only need to change "you asked for" to "he asked if you wanted " and "he said yes" to "you said yes" in the second sentence I made. Refer to the edit on my previous post at the bottom. He increased your chances at getting the Tongue with this deal while increasing his chances at getting the Shank. Where's the fault exactly? Other than you trying to back out because it was your turn and it hadn't dropped yet?
Because he wanted to take my Shank under a common tactic to trick naive people leaving me with nothing.
And of course I'm naive. I'm human just like anyone else with feelings. I don't WANT to believe that someone would take away my second chance at getting a BB item and leave me with no tongue.
Zyeriis
05-16-2011, 04:24 PM
He's not even listening is he?
Runespider
05-16-2011, 04:26 PM
Isnt this a game built around common courtesy though?
You try to do an NM, others are already there. Both groups take turns.
People generally take turns cause they fear if they don't they will get outclaimed out the wazoo, if they had a tool to insta claim and only they had it they wouldn't take turns at all, ever. I've been in positions where I asked to take turns when I arrive, they ignore or say no and I outclaim them for 4-5 in a row, then they get talkative. So no.
To OP, if you don't like it make your own group. He made the group, he makes the rules, if you don't like them don't join it.
Arcon
05-16-2011, 04:35 PM
All I'm saying is I doubt he used you. If I made that kinda deal with you, I would expect the same thing as he did. It's not taking advantage of you, there's no naivety involved. As was stated before, you agreed to a certain rule, but then expected an exception to the rule.
"I lot this, you lot that."
That's all that has been said. There's no "unless" clause. There's no "but I didn't get anything so far, why shouldn't I lot now?", that's no argument at all. That would actually be unfair to him, because you had your fair chance. Sometimes you just lose, that's all there is to it. I don't believe you got tricked, it's simply a deal you agreed to (a very fair one, that is commonplace in FFXI), and as such I don't think it violates common courtesy.
All I'm saying is I doubt he used you. If I made that kinda deal with you, I would expect the same thing as he did. It's not taking advantage of you, there's no naivety involved. As was stated before, you agreed to a certain rule, but then expected an exception to the rule.
"I lot this, you lot that."
That's all that has been said. There's no "unless" clause. There's no "but I didn't get anything so far, why shouldn't I lot now?", that's no argument at all. That would actually be unfair to him, because you had your fair chance. Sometimes you just lose, that's all there is to it. I don't believe you got tricked, it's simply a deal you agreed to (a very fair one, that is commonplace in FFXI), and as such I don't think it violates common courtesy.
How do I lose everything in a YOYD run ;;
It's not like I live in a perpetual state of some movie where I'm expecting this type of action to be used. It's in retrospect that I see it. Like "hey, doesnt this sound familiar? Like those lawsuits of this or that which you see in random news articles?"
Zyeriis
05-16-2011, 04:54 PM
How do I lose everything in a YOYD run ;;
It's not like I live in a perpetual state of some movie where I'm expecting this type of action to be used. It's in retrospect that I see it. Like "hey, doesnt this sound familiar? Like those lawsuits of this or that which you see in random news articles?"
1) Lost nothing, as you backed out because they wouldn't take back the deal just because it was your turn.
2) Them being able to lot the Tongue as well, on their orbs, has nothing to do with you trying to back out of the deal just because it didn't drop on their orbs.
3) You are making assumptions again (and still) that you wouldn't have been able to lot the shank, which was nowhere in the deal you mentioned and you could've said that to counter the fact that they could still lot on the Tongue). The deal only mentioned that everyone would be able to lot the Tongue (and by extension the Shank) if one of them dropped, regardless of orb. It worked both ways, he didn't "con" you, you made a deal, made assumptions, and backed out under false reasoning AFTER the fact that they used their orbs.
1) Lost nothing, as you backed out because they wouldn't take back the deal just because it was your turn.
2) Them being able to lot the Tongue as well, on their orbs, has nothing to do with you trying to back out of the deal just because it didn't drop on their orbs.
3) You are making assumptions again (and still) that you wouldn't have been able to lot the shank, which was nowhere in the deal you mentioned and you could've said that to counter the fact that they could still lot on the Tongue). The deal only mentioned that everyone would be able to lot the Tongue (and by extension the Shank) if one of them dropped, regardless of orb. It worked both ways, he didn't "con" you, you made a deal, made assumptions, and backed out under false reasoning AFTER the fact that they used their orbs.
and again, I said it is a common Confidence Man tactic to "pull a fast one" on someone. I'm pretty sure "Confidence Man Tactic" is not the term correct term, but I can't for the life of me think of the correct one. Ya know, something akin to a Pyramid Scheme...but obviously NOT one. In the same group of "terms".
And if it's so common why did it (almost) work? Cuz I don't like to jus instantly think someone who I've never met before will pull a trick on me that I've heard about in news articles or such to con people. It's in retrospect.
Zyeriis
05-16-2011, 05:07 PM
and again, I said it is a common Confidence Man tactic to "pull a fast one" on someone.
And if it's so common why did it (almost) work? Cuz I don't like to jus instantly think someone who I've never met before will pull a trick on me that I've heard about in news articles or such to con people. It's in retrospect.
You do realize that one could make you look like the one who "pulled a fast one" by not using your orb after they used theirs don't you? "You will have a chance to lot the Tongue if it drops on one of our orbs if we get the chance to lot the shank on yours" is pretty clear, if you ask me.
If it had dropped, and you had won the item, you may as well have ran off without using your orb. You ran off because you didn't understand the word "chance" and then tried to "pull a fast one" by asking if they could get rid of the "if we get the chance to lot the shank on your orb" part of the deal, because the part of the deal that you were interested in could no longer occur, and then leaving once they said no (regardless of you being unable to understand the word "chance" in the deal, that has nothing to do with it, even included, your actions/motives are the only ones i can question now).
You do realize that one could make you look like the one who "pulled a fast one" by not using your orb after they used theirs don't you? "You will have a chance to lot the Tongue if it drops on one of our orbs if we get the chance to lot the shank on yours" is pretty clear, if you ask me.
If it had dropped, and you had won the item, you may as well have ran off without using your orb. You ran off because you didn't understand the word "chance" and then tried to "pull a fast one" by asking if they could get rid of the "if we get the chance to lot the shank on your orb" part of the deal, because the part of the deal that you were interested in could no longer occur, and then leaving once they said no (regardless of you being unable to understand the word "chance" in the deal, that has nothing to do with it, even included, your actions/motives are the only ones i can question now).
But that's not what happened.
Again, all of that is kaput cuz isn't this going against the nature of common courtesy towards even your fellow man? They were trying to take something from me and in return I received nothing.
No you did not. You received a chance at an item. The actual item was never offered to you, simply the chance for it.
Sorry, but YOU are the one being unreasonable, not them.
No you did not. You received a chance at an item. The actual item was never offered to you, simply the chance for it.
Sorry, but YOU are the one being unreasonable, not them.
No one in their right mind would make this deal unless:
1. They didn't fully understand and were taken advantage of beforehand
2. REALLY didn't wanna fight regular Behemoth and King Behemoth
It's not unreasonable to expect common courtesy from my fellow man by not having this Confidence Man tactic thrown at me
No one in their right mind would make this deal unless:
1. They didn't fully understand and were taken advantage of beforehand
2. REALLY didn't wanna fight regular Behemoth and King Behemoth
Actually they would because 4 chances during the ks99 is better than 1 chance of behemoth.
Zyeriis
05-16-2011, 05:54 PM
No one in their right mind would make this deal unless:
1. They didn't fully understand and were taken advantage of beforehand
2. REALLY didn't wanna fight regular Behemoth and King Behemoth
It's not unreasonable to expect common courtesy from my fellow man by not having this Confidence Man tactic thrown at me
....what?...
Gokku
05-16-2011, 06:01 PM
No one in their right mind would make this deal unless:
1. They didn't fully understand and were taken advantage of beforehand
2. REALLY didn't wanna fight regular Behemoth and King Behemoth
It's not unreasonable to expect common courtesy from my fellow man by not having this Confidence Man tactic thrown at me
3. Didnt have friends to do the orb with them and then keep the behemoth pop item and pop it your self
cuz you know... old contents hard bro! you made a dumb deal and got screwed over for it end of story.
Actually they would because 4 chances during the ks99 is better than 1 chance of behemoth.
That would actually depend on the drop rates of BCNM Vs King Behemoth. So that's up in the air.
But the fact remains that it was a YOYD run. And when it was my turn I was expected to give away my only consolation chance at another Tongue regardless of whether or not Tongue dropped due to taking advantage of my good hearted nature to believe in ppl i dont know ><
Kazen
05-16-2011, 06:29 PM
Everyone else discussing this with you is corrrect. In this situation you were the one in the wrong not the group you went with.
3. Didnt have friends to do the orb with them and then keep the behemoth pop item and pop it your self
Not that you even need friends, as the bcnm is soloable.
That would actually depend on the drop rates of BCNM Vs King Behemoth. So that's up in the air.
But the fact remains that it was a YOYD run. And when it was my turn I was expected to give away my only consolation chance at another Tongue regardless of whether or not Tongue dropped due to taking advantage of my good hearted nature to believe in ppl i dont know ><No, you were expected to turn it over, because you agreed to.
Brb, gonna go buy a lottery ticket. Except i am not going to pay for it until after i win. If i lose, then there is no way i am going to pay for it!
No, you were expected to turn it over, because you agreed to.
Brb, gonna go buy a lottery ticket. Except i am not going to pay for it until after i win. If i lose, then there is no way i am going to pay for it!
This was not what I agreed to. My faith in them was that they were gonna do it the common courtesy way. I in no way expected to just hand over my consolation chance at getting a Tongue when it was *my* orb if I had received no Tongue.
It was a YOYD run. Your Orb Your Drop. Which they tried to pull one on me with the Confidence Man tactic. Different from a government run lottery.
Arcon
05-16-2011, 07:00 PM
This was not what I agreed to. My faith in them was that they were gonna do it the common courtesy way. I in no way expected to just hand over my consolation chance at getting a Tongue when it was *my* orb if I had received no Tongue.
It was a YOYD run. Your Orb Your Drop. Which they tried to pull one on me with the Confidence Man tactic. Different from a government run lottery.
As I said before, no one pulled anything. There was no subtext in their deal, no clause you skimmed over and missed, no fine print that screws you over. It's not even a bad deal, not at all. You got a chance at three tongues, they helped you with the fight. You simply expected a safety net that wasn't there, that they had no responsibility to hold up, neither contractually, nor morally. They didn't force you into this, they didn't coerce you into this, they offered you a simple deal, they didn't say "you'll get the tongue in return for the shank", they said "you lot this, we lot that" and you agreed to that (it isn't a bad deal anyway if you just want a Behemoth Tongue).
I try to be as fair as I can, always, and I would do something like that too. It's not to screw anyone over, it's just a normal deal, I don't even understand how you can take it the wrong way. You made a mistake, no one played you, you expected something unrealistic and then backed out, which means now you got two shots at the tongue for absolutely nothing in return.
they helped you with the fight.
It was a YOYD shout in Port Jeno. We all helped each other. Not like I jus asked some random d00ds to help me with something I had to do
blowfin
05-16-2011, 07:19 PM
Everyone else discussing this with you is corrrect. In this situation you were the one in the wrong not the group you went with.
The leader of the group probably should have given more detail. Certainly if I planned to keep something that came from someone elses orb in a YOYD run i'd make it pretty clear what said item was before commencing.
Seems like there was an assumption made by the leader of the group really, and maybe our OP here. But it's up to the organizer to not run a complete gong show, not the guests.
It was a YOYD shout in Port Jeno. We all helped each other. Not like I jus asked some random d00ds to help me with something I had to do
No, you were helping them really if they were shouting.
Byrth
05-16-2011, 08:00 PM
If you don't like the deal, you're free to walk away even if it's "your turn." Deals have two sides, so he misinterpreted it just as much as you did. If he managed to peer pressure you into a deal that you didn't want, my condolences.
This was not what I agreed to. My faith in them was that they were gonna do it the common courtesy way. I in no way expected to just hand over my consolation chance at getting a Tongue when it was *my* orb if I had received no Tongue.
It was a YOYD run. Your Orb Your Drop. Which they tried to pull one on me with the Confidence Man tactic. Different from a government run lottery.Yes it is what you agreed to. It is right fucking there in the OP.
He sent me a tell saying that he'll give me a chance to lot BB item on both his and his LS-mate's orb if it dropped.
Stop blaming him because you cannot read.
Randwolf
05-16-2011, 08:32 PM
This was not what I agreed to. My faith in them was that they were gonna do it the common courtesy way. I in no way expected to just hand over my consolation chance at getting a Tongue when it was *my* orb if I had received no Tongue.
It was a YOYD run. Your Orb Your Drop. Which they tried to pull one on me with the Confidence Man tactic. Different from a government run lottery.
It seems to me you are here trying to justify your behavior. You did not need a clarification on the terms until it was your orb on the line. The fact that you asked for clarification meant you had this question in the back of your mind. But, it only became relevant when it came time for you to fulfill your end of the bargain. So, either you were the conman or you let your greed overrule your questions until it was time to pay up.
Bubeeky
05-16-2011, 09:26 PM
Honestly, I'd have to take Linh's side in this...he agreed for the chance at the BB item, but he never got that chance, so he shouldn't have to pay the piper for it...plus, wouldn't the others have gotten the shank from their own orbs? sounds to me like they still wanted payment so that they could take advantage of Linh's misfortune...
Ravenmore
05-16-2011, 09:55 PM
I see it as that bubee, but still hate to say lesson learned. Take it in to the next time and go over every point in great detail. I think thats how some of the people that are selling RA/ex on my server are doing it, paying for the rite to lot even if it doesn't drop.
Tamoa
05-16-2011, 10:06 PM
In the OP's defense, this was a YOYD run. And to me, that has always meant you get to keep whatever you want that drops off your orb, including behe pop item in this case unless some other agreement was made prior to the run.
I haven't read every single post in this thread, but I'm assuming if BB item had dropped from one of the other orbs, the OP would have been allowed to lot it in exchange for the behe pop item from his orb. Which is all good. But no BB item dropped and OP was still required to give up his behe pop item. That kinda sounds like having to pay for an item you didn't receive?
But like I said, I haven't read through all the pages here and I may have missed some valid points as to why the OP was in the wrong. And either way, this, very much this:
I see it as that bubee, but still hate to say lesson learned. Take it in to the next time and go over every point in great detail. I think thats how some of the people that are selling RA/ex on my server are doing it, paying for the rite to lot even if it doesn't drop.
I think thats how some of the people that are selling RA/ex on my server are doing it, paying for the rite to lot even if it doesn't drop.
Who the hell would agree t that? >.>
Zyeriis
05-16-2011, 10:42 PM
In the OP's defense, this was a YOYD run. And to me, that has always meant you get to keep whatever you want that drops off your orb, including behe pop item in this case unless some other agreement was made prior to the run.
I haven't read every single post in this thread, but I'm assuming if BB item had dropped from one of the other orbs, the OP would have been allowed to lot it in exchange for the behe pop item from his orb. Which is all good. But no BB item dropped and OP was still required to give up his behe pop item. That kinda sounds like having to pay for an item you didn't receive?
But like I said, I haven't read through all the pages here and I may have missed some valid points as to why the OP was in the wrong. And either way, this, very much this:
The second he agreed to the exception of the Tongue and the Shank, it was no longer a full-on YOYD run, the deal itself was a contradiction. He agreed to let the others lot on his shank in the same manner he would be allowed to lot on the Tongue, it didn't matter who's orb either of them dropped on, anyone would've been able to lot. Under this deal, the other 2 went first, and neither dropped. Then, before his turn, he asked if they could annul the deal, because it was his turn, because the item hadn't dropped. This equates to saying: "The deal is off because it didn't drop, so you don't get the chance at all! I had my chance but, I didn't get what I wanted so...I'm not going to uphold my part of the deal."
The fact that he misunderstood a relatively clear deal about whether or not they would just give him the Tongue if it dropped (which is an idiotic assumption at best as he argues that the Tongue and shank are the only things worth getting from the KSNM, both of which are tied to getting Black Belt, the shank just gives you another shot at it) has nothing to do with it. He was still trying to back out the deal because it was his turn.
If anything, he was the one using "confidence man" tactics to get a chance at what he wanted off of their orbs (but didn't) while leaving them nothing, not even the chance to get what they wanted, on his (which, is pretty much the same exact item, which is why he wanted to back out, to further increase his chances to get the tongue by getting the shank to pop Behemoth for another chance to get the Tongue).
YOYD was the shout, and it would've been equally as fair. The exception made, was also equally fair, as it increased everyone's chance to get one of the two items. He thought that he was making a deal where he would have a better chance at getting the item than they would, which was downright foolish and in no way the fault of the other two.
Who the hell would agree t that? >.>
Same people as the people on Phoenix who dish out 100-300k (or more) per hour to leech in a Fell Cleave party probably.
Same people as the people on Phoenix who dish out 100-300k (or more) per hour to leech in a Fell Cleave party probably.
100k/hr? Damn, that sounds like a pretty good deal, considering a good cleave party can hit upwards of 200k/hr.
Tamoa
05-16-2011, 10:47 PM
@Zyeriis: Sure, if there were 2 separate deals here, then yeah the OP can't really complain. I just thought it sounded like the shank off his orb would be the payment for him lotting the BB item off someone else's orb.
I just thought it sounded like the shank off his orb would be the payment for him lotting the BB item off someone else's orb.
You must have read a different post than we did. The post i read explicitly said he was trading the shank for a chance to lot the tongue.
Byrth
05-16-2011, 11:14 PM
It's Futchy. If the OP had gotten a Behemoth Tongue and Warped justice would have been served.
http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/80423-WARNING-Jacob-Futch-A.K.A-Jamofu-Deemos-Guni-Futchy-Ikuni-UPDATED-3-7-Pewpeww-on-Valefor
It's Futchy. If the OP had gotten a Behemoth Tongue and Warped justice would have been served.
http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/80423-WARNING-Jacob-Futch-A.K.A-Jamofu-Deemos-Guni-Futchy-Ikuni-UPDATED-3-7-Pewpeww-on-Valefor
ok, but him arguing that he was in the right for any other reason makes him wrong.
Hoshi
05-16-2011, 11:35 PM
I can't believe all of you are defending Futchy lol.... and I've been thinking that since page 1 >.>;;;. Perhaps it comes from being on a server with him but I know he's a scammer and a mean spirited person. Don't get me wrong, I'm not impressed with Linh either (some of the stuff he posts on these forums is bizarre +1) but it sounds like he was being scammed by Futchy. YOYD means your orb your drop and if someone says you can lot on something on their orb that does not preclude YOYD.
Tamoa
05-16-2011, 11:42 PM
If the deal was "you can lot on BB item if it drops on someone else's orb, we get to lot your behe pop item whether you get BB item or not" then fine. To me, the way the OP is wording it, the agreement was left wide open to being misinterpreted. Especially with the term YOYD being used.
I can't believe all of you are defending Futchy lol.... and I've been thinking that since page 1 >.>;;;. Perhaps it comes from being on a server with him but I know he's a scammer and a mean spirited person. Don't get me wrong, I'm not impressed with Linh either (some of the stuff he posts on these forums is bizarre +1) but it sounds like he was being scammed by Futchy. YOYD means your orb your drop and if someone says you can lot on something on their orb that does not preclude YOYD.
It does not matter who the person was. He was right, and the OP was wrong. If the OP said lolfutch, and purposely ran off without using his orb, then we would not be discussing this. However he tried to blame the other guy when in fact he was right this time.
Hoshi
05-16-2011, 11:56 PM
He was right? The OP states that the deal was YOYD and you can lot on our behe tongues. He does not mention any deal about the shanks. If the deal was you can lot on our behe tongues and we get to keep your shank that would be one thing but if you find that in the OP let me know.
"The deal was [...]we still get your shank.
Was pretty clear to me.
Arcon
05-17-2011, 12:00 AM
He was right? The OP states that the deal was YOYD and you can lot on our behe tongues. He does not mention any deal about the shanks. If the deal was you can lot on our behe tongues and we get to keep your shank that would be one thing but if you find that in the OP let me know.
[..] "No, the deal was for a CHANCE to lot the TONGUE on our orbs in return for your shank. [..]"
There .
Hoshi
05-17-2011, 12:01 AM
How much should it matter in this game?
I asked if I still get to keep my shank if my orb didn't drop Tongue. He said that wasn't part of the deal I made, that it wasn't his fault I misinterpret the deal.
"The deal was not for the BB item itself, but the chance for you to lot it if it drops on our orb. Even if it doesn't drop on your orb, we still get your shank. You misinterpret the deal, not our fault."
From this post no deal was made about the shank beforehand. Really the point is moot, in YOYD runs you ask for QM and leader or someone runs off with your PCC (usually Futchy... what a coincidence).
From this post no deal was made about the shank beforehand.
Yes there was, he clearly refers to it.
Hoshi
05-17-2011, 12:04 AM
Ahh I see ... 5 posts down. Fair enough. I still cheer for anyone who pulls a number on Futchy though. >.>
Zyeriis
05-17-2011, 12:04 AM
If the deal was "you can lot on BB item if it drops on someone else's orb, we get to lot your behe pop item whether you get BB item or not" then fine. To me, the way the OP is wording it, the agreement was left wide open to being misinterpreted. Especially with the term YOYD being used.
That's because the OP left out the actual quote line for the /tell where the other guy proposed the deal. He also left out the part about the shank until he started talking about when it was his turn. Also forgetting that the OP waited until it was his turn before getting "clarification", and that was only because he tried to back out of the deal just because it didn't drop yet. Which leads it open to interpretation that the OP knew full-well, or at least had some degree of understanding, what the deal was. Since he didn't get anything out of the deal, he decided to not use his orb, and save it for the next group, where I can assume he'll try the same thing again. Which would be to get the Tongue off of some one else's orb.
The YOYD argument holds no water whatsoever when the OP agreed upon something that completely contradicts that. If he wanted YOYD, he shouldn't have agreed nor should he have gone. He just wanted YOYD, so long as it was only his orb.
Zyeriis
05-17-2011, 12:06 AM
Ahh I see ... 5 posts down. Fair enough. I still cheer for anyone who pulls a number on Futchy though. >.>
That...I won't argue with ^^;
Glamdring
05-17-2011, 12:19 AM
How much should it matter in this game?
A player named Pewpeww shouted for a YOYD "Horns of War". After I clarified that the Behemoth Tongue still drops in Horns of War per this post:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/5782-Dev-1009-Force-Pop-HNM-s-FTW?p=80514#post80514
He sent me a tell saying that he'll give me a chance to lot BB item on both his and his LS-mate's orb if it dropped.
When it was my turn (3rd/last) the Tongue still had not dropped. I asked if I still get to keep my shank if my orb didn't drop Tongue. He said that wasn't part of the deal I made, that it wasn't his fault I misinterpret the deal.
"The deal was not for the BB item itself, but the chance for you to lot it if it drops on our orb. Even if it doesn't drop on your orb, we still get your shank. You misinterpret the deal, not our fault."
Is this what you call a "Confidence Man Tactic"? Cuz through the "fine print/contract" he is right, but not through the "General Perception" or "Common Courtesy" way.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but you did only ask about the BB item. It is a general rule of YOYD that only stuff on your orb is yours. If you are given a chance at Items off someone else's orb it will ONLY be the specified item. Offerring the BB item lot WAS common courtesy, but the rest of it...? No, that's people's compensation for using seals and time to KS99 with you.
Greatguardian
05-17-2011, 12:43 AM
Ahh I see ... 5 posts down. Fair enough. I still cheer for anyone who pulls a number on Futchy though. >.>
Scammers can still get scammed. The OP didn't even know it was Futchy. While I honestly don't care one bit either way, it's very clearly the OP who was in the wrong. It's sad, really.
Protip for the OP: Don't wantonly accept deals that you don't like in the hopes that you'll get what you want for free. In this case, you made a deal, completed two runs, and then bailed on the rest of your group. You basically just cost them a shank. Is said shank worth all that much, when they didn't have to kill your KS99 Behe? Not really. But that doesn't make what you did acceptable.
Be upfront. Be clear. Be consistent. If you have questions or misunderstandings, it is your responsibility to clear them up before you even leave town. If you don't like the arrangements, don't go with that group. That's all there is to it.
Heady
05-17-2011, 01:20 AM
Its probably already been said, but im not reading all this. Learn a lesson, make your own groups or only bring friends to BC/Orb battles. I learned a long time ago pug's suck for orb battles. At least 70% I joined turned into drama fests, ninja looting a few times, or just plain fail cause some people can't function w/o you telling them when to stun,nuke,ws,curebomb etc..
I had asked the question because it was during the second run he mentioned this.
We were about to /random to see who wouid go next, I asked to go last in case Tongue didn't drop. He then mentions that wasn't the deal. Before I get to ask if this means I get to lot the shank on the 3rd/their orb (if I had went second) in case NO Tongues dropped at all he DCed. He came back, his friend immediately traded orb, we went in fought, won, then I asked again.
This was when he absolutely clarified that I don't get to keep my shank at all and he will warp out but his friend was free to stay and help me out since he wasn't him.
Romanova
05-17-2011, 01:41 AM
It's Futchy. If the OP had gotten a Behemoth Tongue and Warped justice would have been served.
http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/80423-WARNING-Jacob-Futch-A.K.A-Jamofu-Deemos-Guni-Futchy-Ikuni-UPDATED-3-7-Pewpeww-on-Valefor
Requoting this incase people miss it. Idk if the OP is right or wrong but at this point it's the FFXI's community to keep track of this thread, learn who futchy is, and if you don't trust him after reading it, don't join in his events. And tell others.
Basically what i am getting from this is that linh is even worse than futchy, and i should avoid lin at all costs, whereas futchy can at least keep a deal apparently (better than linh anyway).
Greatguardian
05-17-2011, 01:48 AM
Linh can't seem to keep their story straight at all.
Either way, pro-freaking-tip: Don't even leave town unless you know exactly what is happening and who is lotting what.
Ordain
05-17-2011, 01:51 AM
Why do I after reading all of this and then the last post by Linh feel like A) The entire story changed or B) We never were actually given the correct insight into the issue to begin with...?
It's Futchy. If the OP had gotten a Behemoth Tongue and Warped justice would have been served.
http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/80423-WARNING-Jacob-Futch-A.K.A-Jamofu-Deemos-Guni-Futchy-Ikuni-UPDATED-3-7-Pewpeww-on-Valefor
Thx. Goes to show he's been doing shady stuff even from before.
Why do I after reading all of this and then the last post by Linh feel like A) The entire story changed or B) We never were actually given the correct insight into the issue to begin with...?
Nah, everything was in the OP.
1) linh agreed to give his shank to futchy in exchange for a chance to lot the tongue if it drops on anyone's orb.
2) the tongue does not drop on their orbs.
3) linh runs off refusing to pay for the chances he agreed to pay for.
blowfin
05-17-2011, 05:19 AM
Either way, pro-freaking-tip: Don't even leave town unless you know exactly what is happening and who is lotting what.
As I've said in this thread earlier, it's up to the organizer of the group to make sure people are clear on who lots what before they leave. If you want to maintain any sort of decent reputation.
I also love it how you're all trying to defend a proven scumbag.;)
Greatguardian
05-17-2011, 05:28 AM
As I've said in this thread earlier, it's up to the organizer of the group to make sure people are clear on who lots what before they leave. If you want to maintain any sort of decent reputation.
While true in an ideal situation, the fact of the matter is that (if you're dealing in pickups at all) more often than not you're just going to get people who don't know how to read. Both parties need to be responsible. The leader is responsible for being clear, concise, and making sure to lay things out where everyone can see it before the run starts. By the same token, members who don't pay attention, missed something, or who are simply not clear on something are responsible for asking for clarification before they start wandering off into something they're not sure about.
Edit: Futchy is scum. The OP is still wrong. There's no double standard about it.
blowfin
05-17-2011, 05:40 AM
The leader is responsible for being clear, concise, and making sure to lay things out where everyone can see it before the run starts. By the same token, members who don't pay attention, missed something, or who are simply not clear on something are responsible for asking for clarification before they start wandering off into something they're not sure about.
Well, it seems like the finer points here were a bit of a grey area.
Would have been quite simple:
- In exchange for lotting your BB item we get to keep the HQ pop if it drops on your orb.
(and OP if that did happen then you're clearly in the wrong, first thing you do when someone offers you a deal like that is drop party)
Basically you got offered garbage items that probably would have gone to the floor in exchange for the HQ pop if it dropped on your orb.
Get the feeling that wasn't outlined too well though. To who's advantage?
Greatguardian
05-17-2011, 06:03 AM
Well, it seems like the finer points here were a bit of a grey area.
Would have been quite simple:
- In exchange for lotting your BB item we get to keep the HQ pop if it drops on your orb.
Get the feeling that wasn't outlined too well though. To who's advantage?
Fair enough~. Though neither of them really walked away with anything extraordinary either way.
HFX7686
05-17-2011, 06:21 AM
I'm a bit unclear what the original deal was. Was the Behemoth Shank part of the original deal or not?
Linh, before you set out from Jeuno to the BCNM did you or did you not agree to allow this Pewpeww person to have the Behemoth Shank on your orb in exchange for being able to lot on the Behemoth Tongue on all orbs?
Firebert_Lakshmi
05-17-2011, 10:05 AM
Here's how I'm interpreting this. In the original post, the tell said the TC would have a chance to lot on the tongue in exchange for the the shank. No tongue, no chance to lot. Therefore I side with TC.
I've seen similar deals set up with Royale Ramble back in the day. Members would trade their ingot to lot a weapon that they wanted.
Firebert_Lakshmi
05-17-2011, 10:19 AM
Brb, gonna go buy a lottery ticket. Except i am not going to pay for it until after i win. If i lose, then there is no way i am going to pay for it!
A better analogy would be giving the cashier the money for a ticket, but never receiving a ticket in return, winning or losing.
A better analogy would be giving the cashier the money for a ticket, but never receiving a ticket in return, winning or losing.
No, i want to be the one who takes advantage, like the OP.
I'm a bit unclear what the original deal was. Was the Behemoth Shank part of the original deal or not?
Linh, before you set out from Jeuno to the BCNM did you or did you not agree to allow this Pewpeww person to have the Behemoth Shank on your orb in exchange for being able to lot on the Behemoth Tongue on all orbs?
Beastly Shank was part of the original deal yes. I was to be allowed to lot the BB item if it dropped on any orb (instead of only lotting it on my orb, since it is a YOYD) in return for giving up the Beastly Shank from my orb.
Following Pewpeww's logic, I was not even guaranteed the Tongue EVEN IF IT DROPS. Cuz by that logic, I'm only allowed to lot it right? Not win it.
EDIT: To answer your second question, no. It wasn't until we were at Ronfaure and after I supposedly convinced Pewpeww that Behemoth Tongue still dropped from KS99 (cuz he said it didn't anymore) that he sent me this /tell with the agreement.
Greatguardian
05-17-2011, 12:16 PM
Beastly Shank was part of the original deal yes. I was to be allowed to lot the BB item if it dropped on any orb (instead of only lotting it on my orb, since it is a YOYD) in return for giving up the Beastly Shank from my orb.
Following Pewpeww's logic, I was not even guaranteed the Tongue EVEN IF IT DROPS. Cuz by that logic, I'm only allowed to lot it right? Not win it.
Okay no. You're 100% in the wrong. Thanks for making this thread. Sure, it backfired for you. But the rest of us know who never to invite to things.
Okay no. You're 100% in the wrong. Thanks for making this thread. Sure, it backfired for you. But the rest of us know who never to invite to things.
So if Behemoth Tongue had dropped I'm only allowed to lot it right, and not win it? And I have to give up my Beastly Shank regardless?
Wtf pewpeww is kind of notorious for a douchebag on caitsith that left he was always stealing shit LS banks and the sort~
Greatguardian
05-17-2011, 12:26 PM
So if Behemoth Tongue had dropped I'm only allowed to lot it right, and not win it? And I have to give up my Beastly Shank regardless?
Yes. You're already lotting on someone else's orb. That doesn't guarantee you a win on the lot. That means you're lotting on someone else's orb. It's not anyone else's fault that you made what appears to be a stupid deal for you and then got greedy. Because that's all that happened.
The deal was you had the opportunity to lot a drop which was not yours if it dropped, in exchange for a 100% drop from your orb. You took their concession and then ran. You scammed them. They just got lucky that they lost nothing from it.
I don't care how notorious Futchy is. I know all about Futchy. That doesn't mean this guy is any less guilty.
Edit: Hell, if this guy even knew who Futchy was and was intentionally trying to scam him because it's freaking Futchy, I'd have just laughed and been okay with it. But this guy does not know who Futchy is, and this could have just as easily happened to some other random person.
Yes. You're already lotting on someone else's orb. That doesn't guarantee you a win on the lot...
That's treating your fellow man like crap, and you know it.
Greatguardian
05-17-2011, 01:00 PM
That is them doing you a favor and saying "Even though this is supposed to be mine according to the rules, I will give you the opportunity to cast lots on it in exchange for X."
You know what common courtesy really is, buddy?
If someone offers you the chance to lot on their orb without any strings attached, common courtesy is letting them lot something from your orb that they want with no strings attached. Unfortunately, common courtesy is rare these days and people just take something for nothing whenever they can get it. Thus people make arrangements before events in order to ensure that some form of equity is maintained.
Common Courtesy:
Player A shouts to give away AF3 feet they don't need.
Player B gets said boots from Player A, and thanks him by tipping him in some fashion, usually 50k or 100k for their trouble.
Common Practice Situation A:
Player A shouts to give away AF3 feet they don't need
Player B takes the feet and disbands, forgetting the guy's name within a couple days and neither paying forward or paying back the favor.
Common Practice Situation B:
Player A shouts to sell AF3 boots they don't need for 50k because no one has common courtesy these days
Player B freaks out, calls Player A a prick, makes a warning thread about them on FFXIAH, and otherwise verbally abuses someone whose only expectation was that people reciprocated his courtesy. He could have just let the chest depop.
People who can only take favors and can never repay them or return them in kind are just leeches on the system.
That is them doing you a favor and saying "Even though this is supposed to be mine according to the rules, I will give you the opportunity to cast lots on it in exchange for X."
You know what common courtesy really is, buddy?
Not treating your fellow man like crap by making it so he can only lot the item and not even win it^-^
Yes. You're already lotting on someone else's orb. That doesn't guarantee you a win on the lot.
blowfin
05-17-2011, 01:14 PM
It wasn't until we were at Ronfaure and after I supposedly convinced Pewpeww that Behemoth Tongue still dropped from KS99 (cuz he said it didn't anymore) that he sent me this /tell with the agreement.
So he accepted the original deal based on the fact that he thought BB item didn't drop.
SCUMBAG.
If someone offers you the chance to lot on their orb without any strings attached, common courtesy is letting them lot something from your orb that they want with no strings attached.
What are you smoking? 100% right to lot on the Shank should result in 100% right to lot on the first BB item.
Greatguardian
05-17-2011, 01:15 PM
What part of the transition from:
"This is YPYD, you cannot lot on anyone else's stuff no matter how much you want it"
to
"This is YPYD, but you're welcome to cast a lot on Behemoth Tongue if it drops on my orb if you want"
do you not understand? Christ, some people have absolutely no sense of common decency.
So he accepted the original deal based on the fact that he thought BB item didn't drop.
SCUMBAG.
You're misreading his post. Here are things in order:
1) Pewpeww did not know Behe Tongue dropped from KS99, and sets up the run as YPYD.
2) Linh gets to Ronfaure and convinces Pewpeww that Behe Tongue drops from KS99
3) Pewpeww then proposes the deal to allow Linh to lot Tongue on all orbs in exchange for his Pop
4) Linh agrees to this proposal.
5) The first two KS99 are fought and won
6) Linh pulls back on the original agreement and warps.
Edit2:
What are you smoking? 100% right to lot on the Shank should result in 100% right to lot on the first BB item.
Except that's exactly what I said. If they're both free lotting the tongue, he would just free lot his shank. If he's solo lotting the tongue, they're solo lotting his shank. I never said he would be free lotting the tongue and then not lotting his own shank. That's just your misinterpretation.
blowfin
05-17-2011, 01:22 PM
1) Pewpeww did not know Behe Tongue dropped from KS99, and sets up the run as YOYD.
1a) Pewpeww accepts the deal thinking he's getting a free shot at a HQ pop item
2) Linh gets to Ronfaure and convinces Pewpeww that Behe Tongue drops from KS99
3) Pewpeww then proposes the deal to allow Linh to lot Tongue on all orbs in exchange for his Pop
4) Linh agrees to this proposal.
5) The first two KS99 are fought and won
6) Linh pulls back on the original agreement and warps.
More like the above. Both parties are at fault really. I just don't think you need to go quite so far with vilifying the OP to be perfectly honest.
Except that's exactly what I said. If they're both free lotting the tongue, he would just free lot his shank. If he's solo lotting the tongue, they're solo lotting his shank. I never said he would be free lotting the tongue and then not lotting his own shank. That's just your misinterpretation.
Needed more clarity really. You implied that it would be fine for the other members to lot on the same tongue too.
...Except that's exactly what I said. If they're both free lotting the tongue, he would just free lot his shank. If he's solo lotting the tongue, they're solo lotting his shank. I never said he would be free lotting the tongue and then not lotting his own shank. That's just your misinterpretation.
This is exactly the type of Confidence Man tactic I've been talking about.
blowfin
05-17-2011, 01:32 PM
If they're both free lotting the tongue, he would just free lot his shank. If he's solo lotting the tongue, they're solo lotting his shank. I never said he would be free lotting the tongue and then not lotting his own shank.
And yes, you did.
Yes. You're already lotting on someone else's orb. That doesn't guarantee you a win on the lot.
Greatguardian
05-17-2011, 01:35 PM
This is exactly the type of Confidence Man tactic I've been talking about.
No, that's the deal you accepted straight up. Is it what I would expect to happen without an arrangement between two courteous people? Not at all. But once you make an agreement, you stick to it. If you aren't clear on something, you straighten it out before anything starts.
@Blowfin, I realize the OP didn't cause anyone serious harm in the end. I also realize Futchy is absolute scum and I am in no way defending his intentions, his history, or his character.
However, he did come in here making a thread about common courtesy when he himself has shown absolutely none, while repeatedly attempting to vilify someone who hadn't done anything wrong in this particular scenario. Did Futchy have the best intentions? Probably not. In fact I'm sure he had horrible intentions. But he didn't trick the OP into doing anything. He said "You can lot on Tongues on our orb if you give us your shank", and the OP agreed to it. The OP did not, or does not, even know who Futchy is so it could have very well been anyone else that this happened to.
If someone says "I'll fight Alfard for you and let you lot Widowmaker if it drops if you pay me 10Mil", and someone agrees, kills the NM, and then warps without paying if the Axe doesn't drop, which person is the scammer and which is the scamee?
Edit: I still think we're missing each other.
Situation A: The OP is allowed to lot on the tongue with orb owner A despite it being YOYD.
Expected result: Orb owner A lots with OP on the OP's Shank.
Situation B: The OP is allowed 100% dibs on the first tongue.
Expected result: Orb owner A is given 100% rights to OP's Shank.
Yes, I believe these situations are a good deal. However, people are allowed to make deals that are not good. That does not mean anyone is being misleading. That simply means the person who takes the bad deal is an idiot.
Do I think the OP's deal was very fair? No. It was very one-sided. But, frankly, the OP shouldn't have agreed to it if that was the case. Even then, it should be mentioned that it was never explicitly stated that anyone but the OP would be lotting on Behemoth Tongues. The fact of the matter is that none dropped, and the OP left specifically because there was the possibility that 0 tongues would drop and he would still be expected to give up his shank because that was the deal.
No, that's the deal you accepted straight up.
Not what I accepted straight up. From what you stated, this was all Confidence Man tactic. period.
Arlynne
05-17-2011, 01:53 PM
The point I am getting out of this is that there is no way Pewpew can lose out on this deal. The reasonable thing would be to let the op get his shank if he didn't get a tongue and then get together to do the king behemoth fight. He already got his two shanks with OPs help, he could just let the op keep his shanks to preserve his chance to get to get the tongue.
blowfin
05-17-2011, 01:56 PM
Not what I accepted straight up. From what you stated, this was all Confidence Man tactic. period.
So what changed, you expected to be able to lot on the shank too, and then you were told you weren't able to?
Zyeriis
05-17-2011, 01:59 PM
The point I am getting out of this is that there is no way Pewpew can lose out on this deal. The reasonable thing would be to let the op get his shank if he didn't get a tongue and then get together to do the king behemoth fight. He already got his two shanks with OPs help, he could just let the op keep his shanks to preserve his chance to get to get the tongue.
Why the hell is this thread still going? It shoudl've been over like 7 pages ago.
The leader of the run increased his chances at getting the Tongue, end of story. The OP didn't actually care about the shank, otherwise he wouldn't have agreed to the deal. It wasn't until his turn came up that he tried to make a big deal out of things because the Tongue hadn't dropped. Who the person was? Irrelevant. Whether or not the OP fully understood the deal? Irrelevant, he should'n't have agreed to the deal if he wasn't sure (Which is apparent when he tried to change the deal because it was his turn).
Other guy got scammed, not the OP. It's just that no one lost anything.
End.
Of.
Story.
Why the hell is this thread still going? It shoudl've been over like 7 pages ago.
The leader of the run increased his chances at getting the Tongue, end of story. The OP didn't actually care about the shank, otherwise he wouldn't have agreed to the deal. It wasn't until his turn came up that he tried to make a big deal out of things because the Tongue hadn't dropped. Who the person was? Irrelevant. Whether or not the OP fully understood the deal? Irrelevant, he should'n't have agreed to the deal if he wasn't sure (Which is apparent when he tried to change the deal because it was his turn).
Other guy got scammed, not the OP. It's just that no one lost anything.
End.
Of.
Story.
It was a confidence man tactic. Due to all this convuluted wording, even if the Tongue didn't drop I wasn't guaranteed to win the lot at all!
That is the real end of story. Keeping your fellow man down and treating him like crap and scamming him instead.
So what changed, you expected to be able to lot on the shank too, and then you were told you weren't able to?
I expected to be able to keep my shank *if no Behemoth Tongue dropped*.
Zyeriis
05-17-2011, 02:08 PM
It was a confidence man tactic. Due to all this convuluted wording, even if the Tongue didn't drop I wasn't guaranteed to win the lot at all!
That is the real end of story. Keeping your fellow man down and treating him like crap and scamming him instead.
Translation: "Words are hard, I don't understand the concept of increased chance, if anyone else can lot, that means I'm 100% not going to get the item because the game is specifically coded to not allow me to win lots. *Jibberish* Confidence Man tactics *More jibberish* FIGHT THE POWA! *extra jibberish*
^ Inflammatory? Maybe but, this is getting old. You think saying "confidence man tactics!" enough will make it true?
blowfin
05-17-2011, 02:13 PM
I expected to be able to keep my shank *if no Behemoth Tongue dropped*.
And that's why you went last? If that's the case then I think you were perfectly entitled to warp out then if the rules of the deal weren't set out properly. You were basically about the throw away 99KS. Shame that it took you so long to realise that though, and you probably didn't need to make a thread about it.
Translation: "Words are hard, I don't understand the concept of increased chance, if anyone else can lot, that means I'm 100% not going to get the item because the game is specifically coded to not allow me to win lots. *Jibberish* Confidence Man tactics *More jibberish* FIGHT THE POWA! *extra jibberish*
^ Inflammatory? Maybe but, this is getting old. You think saying "confidence man tactics!" enough will make it true?
Because that's exactly what it is. People trying to put their fellow man like me down.
And if you truly wanted this thread to be over, you wouldn't still be here arguing about it, since apparently it was already "End. Of. Story." for you.
Zyeriis
05-17-2011, 02:20 PM
I expected to be able to keep my shank *if no Behemoth Tongue dropped*.
And where'd you get that notion? That one has absolutely no basis aside from you thinking that your side of the deal didn't matter whatsoever. Just shows that you knew full-well what the deal was. You had absolutely no intention of giving up your shank and lucky for them, the tongue didn't drop so you could lot on it and warp if you won it. You might've made a big deal if some one else had lotted it too but, I doubt you would've stuck around after the fact either way.
I doubt you would've stuck around after the fact either way.
This wasn't what happened, so it has no basis in this conversation.
Arlynne
05-17-2011, 02:36 PM
I don't why you assume he wouldn't give up the shank if he got what he wanted, the tongue. He doesn't want to fight king Behemoth unless he has to. Getting the tongue in exchange for a shank is a much better deal for him. If he doesn't get a tongue or a shank why give up 99 ks for someone guy he doesn't know and who has a rep for being a lootninja.
Zyeriis
05-17-2011, 02:52 PM
I don't why you assume he wouldn't give up the shank if he got what he wanted, the tongue. He doesn't want to fight king Behemoth unless he has to. Getting the tongue in exchange for a shank is a much better deal for him. If he doesn't get a tongue or a shank why give up 99 ks for someone guy he doesn't know and who has a rep for being a lootninja.
Did you forget he's trying to say that no one has common courtesy? The very thing the thread is about, is what he lacks. And, again, he didn't know the person was a douche (and if he did, he shouldn't have gone in the first place, seeing how the deal proposal wasn't until after they left). That person being who that person was, is completely irrelevant. Wasn't the other person's fault the tongue didn't drop. There's no justification to not upholding his side of the deal, aside from a lack of "common courtesy" on his part. He backed out of a deal that gave him a chance, not a guarantee (either way, whether it was if it dropped that he would 100% get it or that if it dropped that he would get a chance to lot it even if it wasn't his orb). If he wanted to know what would happen if it didn't drop, then he would've asked that right as the deal was being made not after the fact.
This is quite literally, the last time I'm going to say this. The are no even plausibly legitimate counter-arguments to be made. "These are confidence man tactics!" being said over and over doesn't make it so. The person who lacked any form of courtesy in this situation was the OP. More than common courtesy was given with the deal proposal in the first damn place. I'm labeling this as a troll thread and going about my business since the OP couldn't even give specific details about the situation in his first post, why does he think that everyone else should be overbearingly explicit in making a relatively clear deal is beyond me.
Did you forget he's trying to say that no one has common courtesy? The very thing the thread is about, is what he lacks. And, again, he didn't know the person was a douche (and if he did, he shouldn't have gone in the first place,seeing how the deal proposal wasn't until after they left). That person being who that person was, is completely irrelevant. Wasn't the other person's fault the tongue didn't drop. There's no justification to not upholding his side of the deal, aside from a lack of "common courtesy" on his part.
This is quite literally, the last time I'm going to say this. The are no even plausibly legitimate counter-arguments to be made. "These are confidence man tactics!" being said over and over doesn't make it so. The person who lacked any form of courtesy in this situation was the OP. More than common courtesy was given with the deal proposal in the first damn place. I'm labeling this as a troll thread and going about my business since the OP couldn't even give specific details about the situation in his first post, why does he think that everyone else should be overbearingly explicit in making a relatively clear deal is beyond me.
And yea, not even being able to WIN the lot and simply "only lot" due to all this convoluted wording is definitely not fair. Which is exactly what you all have been saying and the exact same as him which is what I'm trying to get at. You're the type of people who are trying to keep me down and scam me when I've done nothing wrong to you as a fellow man.
Zyeriis
05-17-2011, 03:09 PM
And yea, not even being able to WIN the lot and simply "only lot" due to all this convoluted wording is definitely not fair. Which is exactly what you all have been saying and the exact same as him which is what I'm trying to get at. You're the type of people who are trying to keep me down and scam me when I've done nothing wrong to you as a fellow man.
You know, aside from all the stuff you did wrong.
You know, aside from all the stuff you did wrong.
Didn't do anything wrong, I was the one who was wrong by fellow man. And if I were to use your logic, shouldn't I have taken your 2 earlier posts at face value and that you are truly "End. Of. Story" and not posting in a thread that should've ended 7 years ago even though it was only started yesterday?
Ordain
05-17-2011, 03:23 PM
7 years ago even though it was only started yesterday?
He said 7 pages ago, don't take it out of context against your fellow man.
----
All I can see is Linh is a person who though may not realise it is rather selfish.
Would you have gotten scammed? No. Why? Because the rules prevented any scamming to take place.
This is what you have said the rules are.
a) You have a CHANCE to lot on the Behemoth Tongue if it drops, period.
b) They also can and will try to lot on the Behemoth Tongue.
c) They can lot on your Shank.
d) (This part is unclear, you never tell us if YOU can lot on your Shank or not.)
Now if you both can lot on the tongue and the shank. It's an equal trade deal. You both have been given boosted rates and better chances as such.
If you can not loot on your shank then from what you've told us, you didn't clarify the deal good enough. I could see if this was the case that it would seem like a scam, but since you didn't get it all fleshed out ahead of time it really isn't.
---
You warping out when you saw that the deal wasn't what you thought you got into was right, to some degree. It also was wrong. Though you made a mistake you did BREAK you're part of the deal. Even though you weren't aware fully to the terms.
There was no Confidence Man act pulled on you. Simply you CHOSE not to read or ask about the small print. It's everywhere and if you ignore it, it will ALWAYS bite you in the rear.
This is what you have said the rules are.
a) You have a CHANCE to lot on the Behemoth Tongue if it drops, period.
b) They also can and will try to lot on the Behemoth Tongue.
c) They can lot on your Shank.
d) (This part is unclear, you never tell us if YOU can lot on your Shank or not.)
Now if you both can lot on the tongue and the shank. It's an equal trade deal. You both have been given boosted rates and better chances as such.
If you can not loot on your shank then from what you've told us, you didn't clarify the deal good enough. I could see if this was the case that it would seem like a scam, but since you didn't get it all fleshed out ahead of time it really isn't.
---
You warping out when you saw that the deal wasn't what you thought you got into was right, to some degree. It also was wrong. Though you made a mistake you did BREAK you're part of the deal. Even though you weren't aware fully to the terms.
There was no Confidence Man act pulled on you. Simply you CHOSE not to read or ask about the small print. It's everywhere and if you ignore it, it will ALWAYS bite you in the rear.
I did not even ask if I could lot on my own shank. I asked if I could KEEP my own shank.
And small print? I stated before I don't live in some perpetual state of a flick or something to always expecting my fellow man to do me wrong and screw me over. Common Courtesy dictates this as what I strongly had faith in:
Here's how I'm interpreting this. In the original post, the tell said the TC would have a chance to lot on the tongue in exchange for the the shank. No tongue, no chance to lot. Therefore I side with TC.
I've seen similar deals set up with Royale Ramble back in the day. Members would trade their ingot to lot a weapon that they wanted.
, not that words would be convoluted into:
"You only can lot, I didn't say you would win it."
As this would deteoriate into (due to all this Face Value convoluted mess):
"You can lot, but that doesn't mean I can't kick you from the party after you do."
All of that is truly trying to keep your fellow man down.
He said 7 pages ago, don't take it out of context against your fellow man.
Alright, my bad.
Arcon
05-17-2011, 04:21 PM
And this thread is still going, because it's a call to the community about common courtesy, or lack thereof. And while some people may be selfish and try to scam people over a large portion of the community is actually very nice and fair, from my own experience.
I expected to be able to keep my shank *if no Behemoth Tongue dropped*.
That's you expecting something that was clearly stated not to be the case.
This "fellow man" talk is getting kinda stale, you haven't been wronged, even if that was indeed the intention of Pewpeww. I don't know him, so won't say it is either way, the fact is you made a deal and expected an inappropriate exception. And then you accuse others of keeping you down.
I wanna make clear on two things, because you haven't explained that properly anywhere:
1. How many people were in the party?
2. Did he actually say they were going to lot against you on the tongue? Because from the way you said it yourself, I think you misinterpreted his "chance". I don't think he meant a "chance" among others, but a chance as in, if it drops or not. At least that's how I understood it.
As was stated before, I think you're selfish without realizing it. You expected there to be a safety net, insurance, that, even if the run went wrong, you'd get something out of it at least. Reverse that situation, would you be ok if no shanks dropped, and they said "because no shanks dropped, we'll lot your tongue as well, just to get something out of all this"?
I can only relate this to myself, I would offer the same deal he did, and I don't do it to scam anyone or put anyone down. It's a simple deal, can't you see that everyone here interprets it the same way except for you? As I said, I think it's simple misinterpretation (or wrong expectation) on your part, no one pulled anything on you.
blowfin
05-17-2011, 05:09 PM
ITT: common courtesy is giving away 99KS
1. 3
2. No
And there has been people who has agreed with me.
This was what was said BEFORE the run while at Ronfaure:
"I'll give you the chance to lot on the Tongue if it drops, in return I get your shank."
Does most DEFINITELY NOT equal this "clarification":
"The deal was not for the BB item itself, but the chance for you to lot it if it drops on our orb. Even if it doesn't drop on your orb (meaning, "at all") we still get your shank."
Bubeeky
05-17-2011, 09:12 PM
it seems that Linh never got the chance to lot at a BB item, so the other person was unable to uphold his end of the bargain, so common rule says that the bargain is null and void...sounds to me like the other person was trying to manipulate the situation to get more than his share...I doubt he planned to invite or look for Linh the next time they went to fight this particular BCNM, or whenever they went to use these Shanks.
Greatguardian
05-17-2011, 11:15 PM
it seems that Linh never got the chance to lot at a BB item, so the other person was unable to uphold his end of the bargain, so common rule says that the bargain is null and void...sounds to me like the other person was trying to manipulate the situation to get more than his share...I doubt he planned to invite or look for Linh the next time they went to fight this particular BCNM, or whenever they went to use these Shanks.
This doesn't void any agreement. From Linh's own posts, to any player with a brain it's obvious that the other players were not lotting on the Behemoth Tongue. What he said was this:
"We are not trading you a tongue for a shank. We said you can get the Tongue if it drops on our orbs, but in exchange for that opportunity we get your shank period even if no Tongues drop."
This only means that the the deal was to remain intact even if 0 Behemoth Tongues dropped. That does not mean that he was expected to lot against everyone else when/if the Tongue dropped. Linh is either being intentionally dense for the sake of attempting to back up his own case, or is really just that bad. Either way, it's a red flag for anyone on Valefor. It's easy enough to add another name to the blist.
Tamoa
05-17-2011, 11:38 PM
Call me gullible or whatever, but if the initial deal was worded the way Linh says, I too would interpret that as "you can lot BB item if it drops on another orb, in exchange for the shank off your orb". Meaning the shank would be considered as payment for the BB item, and therefore Linh also had to go last. And I can't help but think that's exactly what happened here really. Luckily, gullible or not, I wouldn't find myself in a situation like this as I never ever do KS99s with people I don't know.
No doubt though, if you go on a KS run like this with people you don't know, make 100% certain the lotting rules are absolutely impossible to misunderstand/misinterpret.
Greatguardian
05-17-2011, 11:43 PM
Eh, maybe if the OP provided screenshots we might be able to gauge how iffy the wording was. Personally, I'm in no rush to take his quotations at face value considering how many times he's jumped around, corrected his story, backpedaled, and otherwise tried to change the situation every time someone calls him out.
Definitely agree about making sure everyone's clear on the rules though. That is the #1 thing to do before even starting.
Volkai
05-17-2011, 11:46 PM
By my understanding, what would happen if the tongue never dropped was not specified, and what had been said left what would happen if the tongue never dropped up to interpretation -- which of course means that both parties read the interpretation as that which is most favorable for them.
This was an agreement for an exception to the otherwise agreed upon drop rights, so a gap in the agreement should be resolved by defaulting to the otherwise-agreed-upon-drop-rights.
In this case, the default distribution of items was "Your Orb, Your Drop" and therefore Linh is in the right in expecting to keep drops.
HFX7686
05-18-2011, 12:03 AM
Beastly Shank was part of the original deal yes. I was to be allowed to lot the BB item if it dropped on any orb (instead of only lotting it on my orb, since it is a YOYD) in return for giving up the Beastly Shank from my orb.
Following Pewpeww's logic, I was not even guaranteed the Tongue EVEN IF IT DROPS. Cuz by that logic, I'm only allowed to lot it right? Not win it.
EDIT: To answer your second question, no. It wasn't until we were at Ronfaure and after I supposedly convinced Pewpeww that Behemoth Tongue still dropped from KS99 (cuz he said it didn't anymore) that he sent me this /tell with the agreement.
Then you're technically in the wrong I'm afraid.
Although, I think your best bet would be to gather some friends up and do the KS99 yourself without deals.
Octaviane
05-18-2011, 12:16 AM
I know neither the OP or Pewpeww, so can only say what many have said here. Make certain you have all the i's dotted and the t's crossed before joining a PUG for things of this nature. I don't understand why you wanted to go last because what you wanted hadn't dropped yet except that it seems you had no intention of sticking around to keep your end of the deal Linh. Nor do I know why you didn't understand the words "CHANCE TO LOT" in exchange for YOUR SHANK.
I would like to point out though that on the FFXIAH forums, I noticed that this Pewpeww is now offering to buy KS99 orbs. He isn't saying for how much, and only says that people will get a chance to lot BB items from HQ Kings when his LS does them. The word chance is key word here because BB drop rate is less than 100% from Kings and most definitely less than 30% from KS99's. My interpretation is of course that he is going to take advantage somehow simply because of the use of the words "chance to lot" in any deal he makes. I can see many people might mis-interpret this statement.
Greatguardian
05-18-2011, 01:15 AM
Chance to lot means chance to lot. It's fairly straightforward. It's a bad deal if I ever saw one, but he's not being dishonest about it. In fact, it seems very upfront. Just don't take bad deals.
Bubeeky
05-18-2011, 01:27 AM
I don't understand why ppl are so quick to judge the other person as being completely on the up and up...most of the posts I've read seem to attack Linh in some way for being stupid, gullible or otherwise at fault...maybe the other guy intentionally screwed Linh? Maybe the other guy isn't a saint and is kinda at fault?
Volkai
05-18-2011, 01:30 AM
I don't understand why ppl are so quick to judge the other person as being completely on the up and up...most of the posts I've read seem to attack Linh in some way for being stupid, gullible or otherwise at fault...
Blaming the victim is a popular pastime, donchaknow.
maybe the other guy intentionally screwed Linh?
I think it's pretty clear that's the case
Maybe the other guy isn't a saint and is kinda at fault?
In the same way a loan shark is at fault - technically they aren't, but really....
Greatguardian
05-18-2011, 01:36 AM
I don't understand why ppl are so quick to judge the other person as being completely on the up and up...most of the posts I've read seem to attack Linh in some way for being stupid, gullible or otherwise at fault...maybe the other guy intentionally screwed Linh? Maybe the other guy isn't a saint and is kinda at fault?
Pewpeww is a well-known piece of scum.
That doesn't mean the OP is in the right.
No one's threatening to break anyone's knee caps if they don't sign a deal and pay up. This isn't a loan shark, it's just a shitty bank. When you sign stupid contracts, sometimes you get screwed. The solution? Don't sign shitty contracts. Clarify everything in advance, and then simply don't go if you cannot reach mutually beneficial terms.
Bubeeky
05-18-2011, 01:45 AM
I just don't understand why ppl have to berate Linh for a bad decision...we've all made poor decisions before, and when that happens, we need a little compassion from ppl, not post after post pointing out the stupidity of the initial decision...I'm sure Linh will learn from this experience without us pointing out the lack of forethought or beratement....
Greatguardian
05-18-2011, 01:53 AM
When you make a poor decision, do you proceed to blame the other party and make threads on forums that leave out half the story in order to make yourself look like a poor, deceived victim of a con artist?
Arcon
05-18-2011, 02:08 AM
I don't understand why ppl are so quick to judge the other person as being completely on the up and up...most of the posts I've read seem to attack Linh in some way for being stupid, gullible or otherwise at fault...maybe the other guy intentionally screwed Linh? Maybe the other guy isn't a saint and is kinda at fault?
I just don't understand why ppl have to berate Linh for a bad decision...we've all made poor decisions before, and when that happens, we need a little compassion from ppl, not post after post pointing out the stupidity of the initial decision...I'm sure Linh will learn from this experience without us pointing out the lack of forethought or beratement....
First of all, stop making him the victim. He didn't lose anything at all. He doesn't need our sympathy. He came here to post about how other people suck.
Secondly, I don't see anyone who berated him for his decision (at first). Everyone said something along the lines of "Sucks to hear that, should try to avoid these situations next time", but he kept going about how he was mistreated and wronged, and altered his story in misleading ways. And that is just wrong. It's not his decision that annoys me (or most people here, I'm guessing), but his inability to admit that shit happens, insisting on him being played. He misinterpreted them, that's all there is to it. Although frankly, I have no idea how you even could misinterpret that.
You can lot tongues on every run if we get your shank.
If no tongues drop, how is that a special case, an exception? It doesn't change a thing at all, it simply meant he was out of luck. That case is very well defined within these parameters (if what Linh was saying about it is the truth). He hasn't been wronged, used or mistreated in any way, he made a clear and well defined deal and when he realized what that deal meant for him if he doesn't get any tongues, he got cold feet and backed out. That's all there is to it.
Personally I'd find it insulting if I shouted for people who didn't need shanks, did KS99s with them, expecting their shanks, not because I'm greedy or selfish, but because it's part of the (very simple) deal and because I'm doing 3x KS99, letting them have an item off my runs which I could sell for upwards of 1M (or quite possibly higher after this update), and then that person backs out, leaving me with effectively 50% less loot. If I knew that person was gonna react this way, I wouldn't have invited him and shouted for others instead.
HFX7686
05-18-2011, 02:16 AM
I don't understand why ppl are so quick to judge the other person as being completely on the up and up...most of the posts I've read seem to attack Linh in some way for being stupid, gullible or otherwise at fault...maybe the other guy intentionally screwed Linh? Maybe the other guy isn't a saint and is kinda at fault?
Linh is trying to convince us that he did not understand the word "chance" or the fact that the Behemoth Tongue isn't a 100% drop. He tried to change the deal when it was his turn, even though he agreed to the terms. Now he is looking for sympathy. If anyone is a con man here, it's Linh.
This Pewpeww fellow is a known bad guy and information about known bad guys in FF11 is available on multiple forums, including BG which has an entire section dedicated to making sure people know about known bad guys. In this case, however, I can't see that he did anything wrong except offer a deal which he had to know would likely leave Linh without a Behemoth Tongue due to the drop rates involved.
Really, Linh's best solution is to get his own run going. Obviously the KS99 is quit easy to do now and it shouldn't be difficult for him to find a few people to go with.
...This only means that the the deal was to remain intact even if 0 Behemoth Tongues dropped. That does not mean that he was expected to lot against everyone else when/if the Tongue dropped. Linh is either being intentionally dense for the sake of attempting to back up his own case, or is really just that bad. Either way, it's a red flag for anyone on Valefor. It's easy enough to add another name to the blist.
From your guys' logic and how things should be taken at face value, this:
"I'll give you the chance to lot on the Tongue if it drops, in return I get your shank."
Does NOT equal this:
"The deal was not for the BB item itself, but the chance for you to lot it if it drops on our orb. Even if it doesn't drop on your orb (meaning, "at all") we still get your shank."
HFX7686
05-18-2011, 02:27 AM
From your guys' logic and how things should be taken at face value, this:
"I'll give you the chance to lot on the Tongue if it drops, in return I get your shank."
Does NOT equal this:
"The deal was not for the BB item itself, but the chance for you to lot it if it drops on our orb. Even if it doesn't drop on your orb (meaning, "at all") we still get your shank."
You said there were two other people there. Did either of them express interest in lotting the Behemoth Tongue against you at any point?
Bubeeky
05-18-2011, 02:39 AM
the deal as I understand it Greatguardian was for a chance at the tongue...when the tongue didn't drop on one of the previous orb runs, the deal was null and void...you don't pay the auction house when you lose a bid do you? Linh never got the chance he made the deal for so the way you're interpreting it, Linh should pay for a service he never recieved...I'd understand what you're saying if the tongue did drop and he just lost the lot and was trying to back out of the deal, but that's not the case...through no maliciousness, the other guy couldn't uphold his end of the bargain, so Linh shouldn't be expected to pay for that.
HFX7686
05-18-2011, 02:44 AM
the deal as I understand it Greatguardian was for a chance at the tongue...when the tongue didn't drop on one of the previous orb runs, the deal was null and void...you don't pay the auction house when you lose a bid do you? Linh never got the chance he made the deal for so the way you're interpreting it, Linh should pay for a service he never recieved...I'd understand what you're saying if the tongue did drop and he just lost the lot and was trying to back out of the deal, but that's not the case...through no maliciousness, the other guy couldn't uphold his end of the bargain, so Linh shouldn't be expected to pay for that.
Linh had to realise that the tongue wasn't 100% drop however. He's trying to claim he didn't understand this fact nor what the word "chance" means.
I'm not saying it was a good deal, but it was, however, a clear deal. He understood the deal and then tried to change it when it was time for his orb.
Bubeeky
05-18-2011, 02:48 AM
I understand that HFX, but the deal was for a chance....he never got that chance, so he shouldn't have to pay for a chance he never received...if he was just complaining that he lost the lot and had to pony up his shank still, that would be a different story, but he flat out never got the chance he made the deal for.
HFX7686
05-18-2011, 02:52 AM
I understand that HFX, but the deal was for a chance....he never got that chance, so he shouldn't have to pay for a chance he never received...if he was just complaining that he lost the lot and had to pony up his shank still, that would be a different story, but he flat out never got the chance he made the deal for.
The chance is being in the KS99. The tongue has a chance to drop every run. I think that stating without a drop to lot on he doesn't have to pay up is just twisting words about.
I doubt very much the other two people there were after BB items, they likely wanted to go for KB pops and defending ring drops.
Arcon
05-18-2011, 02:56 AM
I understand that HFX, but the deal was for a chance....he never got that chance, so he shouldn't have to pay for a chance he never received...if he was just complaining that he lost the lot and had to pony up his shank still, that would be a different story, but he flat out never got the chance he made the deal for.
And that's where you understand it (and him) wrong. He got three chances. The chance was not to lot against others, because he was the sole lotter. The chance was about the drop itself.
P: "For 10 bucks I'll toss this coin three times. If it's head, you win a prize."
L: "Alright."
First toss: Tails.
Second toss: Tails.
L: "Wait, do I have to pay even if it's tails again?"
P: "Yes. 10 bucks bought you a chance to try three times."
L: "You wrong me!"
Bubeeky
05-18-2011, 03:00 AM
Being in the run is not the chance...the chance was for him to lot on the BB thing, if it dropped. It may have a chance to drop every run, but the deal is basically contingent upon there being a tongue to drop to lot on...you can't be expected to pay when there wasn't a chance to lot at all...since the deal was for the chance, when the chance does not exist, the deal, by extension no longer exists.
HFX7686
05-18-2011, 03:06 AM
Being in the run is not the chance...the chance was for him to lot on the BB thing, if it dropped. It may have a chance to drop every run, but the deal is basically contingent upon there being a tongue to drop to lot on...you can't be expected to pay when there wasn't a chance to lot at all...since the deal was for the chance, when the chance does not exist, the deal, by extension no longer exists.
The chance did exist: there was a chance for the tongue to drop, even on that third orb that was never done.
Again, not a good deal, but he changed the deal when it was time for his orb. He's not in the right.
Bubeeky
05-18-2011, 03:06 AM
He didn't say whether he was the sole lotter or not, and I'm assuming that he wasn't since the deal was the chance to lot, but that's irrelevant...the fact is that he never got the chance he bargained for.
HFX7686
05-18-2011, 03:08 AM
He didn't say whether he was the sole lotter or not, and I'm assuming that he wasn't since the deal was the chance to lot, but that's irrelevant...the fact is that he never got the chance he bargained for.
While he has not said that it seems extremely likely he was the sole lotter. It would be nice, however, for him to explain this point.
I don't understand why you are not clear on the fact that the tongue is not a 100% drop in this KS99. Everyone I know is aware of this fact. He had to realise that this might be the case and that the bargain he made might not cover this contingency. Bad deal. Buyer beware.
Bubeeky
05-18-2011, 03:10 AM
Again, not a good deal, but he changed the deal when it was time for his orb. He's not in the right.
That part I do agree with...he should not have backed out of the third run, but by extension of that, he should have clarified the deal to begin with...I don't think he's changing the deal so much as new details of the deal came out after the fact...anyway, it's a learning experience for Linh.
Greatguardian
05-18-2011, 03:10 AM
He didn't say whether he was the sole lotter or not, and I'm assuming that he wasn't since the deal was the chance to lot, but that's irrelevant...the fact is that he never got the chance he bargained for.
He was the sole lotter. He is just being dense and trying to twist what was said in order to make himself look like a victim.
"The deal was not for a Behemoth Tongue, but for the chance to lot it if it dropped."
Period. End of story. That's what was said. This does not mean that other people are lotting against him. That simply means that there is no obligation to get a Behemoth Tongue if one happens to not drop on any of the orbs.
And that's where you understand it (and him) wrong. He got three chances. The chance was not to lot against others, because he was the sole lotter. The chance was about the drop itself.
P: "For 10 bucks I'll toss this coin three times. If it's head, you win a prize."
L: "Alright."
First toss: Tails.
Second toss: Tails.
L: "Wait, do I have to pay even if it's tails again?"
P: "Yes. 10 bucks bought you a chance to try three times."
L: "You wrong me!"
Exactly this.
JensenM
05-18-2011, 03:12 AM
Isnt this a game built around common courtesy though?
You try to do an NM, others are already there. Both groups take turns.
No.
I got bitched at for checking someone. Nobody cares about common courtesy.
Bubeeky
05-18-2011, 03:13 AM
I don't understand why you are not clear on the fact that the tongue is not a 100% drop in this KS99. Everyone I know is aware of this fact. He had to realise that this might be the case and that the bargain he made might not cover this contingency. Bad deal. Buyer beware.
I realize that it's not a 100% drop...the deal was made on the basis that IF the tongue dropped, he'd have a chance at it. Unfortunately, the tongue did not drop, so unfortunately, the deal maker got screwed...such is life, and the deal doesn't exist if the tongue didn't drop...both Linh and the other guy should have cleared this up to begin with.
Arcon
05-18-2011, 03:15 AM
He didn't say whether he was the sole lotter or not, and I'm assuming that he wasn't since the deal was the chance to lot, but that's irrelevant...the fact is that he never got the chance he bargained for.
It's not irrelevant, it's the core of the argument, because it means he did in fact have a chance. He got exactly what he bargained for. And the others didn't want it, because as Linh pointed out himself, they didn't even know it dropped from KS99 (and at least one of them has a Black Belt already). Only after he told them, they offered him that deal, which shows clearly that they had no interest in the tongue to begin with. He got exactly what he asked for (even more, since he backed out before upholding his part of the deal, which means he got two shots at a tongue for free). Three shots at a Black Belt for one shank, for someone who has no interest in a Defending Ring, that's as good as a deal is gonna get.
Bubeeky
05-18-2011, 03:16 AM
He was the sole lotter. He is just being dense and trying to twist what was said in order to make himself look like a victim.
"The deal was not for a Behemoth Tongue, but for the chance to lot it if it dropped."
Period. End of story. That's what was said. This does not mean that other people are lotting against him. That simply means that there is no obligation to get a Behemoth Tongue if one happens to not drop on any of the orbs.
I'm not sure you fully understand what's been stated Greatguardian...he's never specified that he was or was not the sole lotter...if he was the sole lotter, then why would the deal have been for a chance and not the item itself? and for that matter, if there was not other potential lotters, why was the run done in the first place? He didn't start the run, the other guy did...Linh just joined along.
Bubeeky
05-18-2011, 03:20 AM
kay, I'm tired of carrying on three+ seperate conversations at once lol, especially when there's really no benefit to continuing...the situation is past and gone and will be a learning experience for all, and is thus not worth arguin' about :)
anywho, <3 u all from the awesomest taru in Carby!
PS. I broke 100 posts!!! This is a happy occasion!
Kindra
05-18-2011, 04:16 AM
Beastly Shank was part of the original deal yes. I was to be allowed to lot the BB item if it dropped on any orb (instead of only lotting it on my orb, since it is a YOYD) in return for giving up the Beastly Shank from my orb.
Following Pewpeww's logic, I was not even guaranteed the Tongue EVEN IF IT DROPS. Cuz by that logic, I'm only allowed to lot it right? Not win it.
EDIT: To answer your second question, no. It wasn't until we were at Ronfaure and after I supposedly convinced Pewpeww that Behemoth Tongue still dropped from KS99 (cuz he said it didn't anymore) that he sent me this /tell with the agreement.
This post says it all. You agreed and knew the agreement when going in. The chance to lot BB item for in exchange for your shank. I hate to say it but yes you are in the wrong here. If you had asked before getting started the question of what happens if it doesn't drop the BB item you probably wouldn't be having this issue because if you are like me you wouldn't have gone.
You still have yet to say if anyone else in the group was after the BB item as well. From my understanding this part is very unclear.
To avoid this type of thing ever happening again just do these things with friends. Its easier and far more fun this way anyway :).
blowfin
05-18-2011, 05:41 AM
Linh is either being intentionally dense for the sake of attempting to back up his own case, or is really just that bad. Either way, it's a red flag for anyone on Valefor. It's easy enough to add another name to the blist.
Quit being such an asswipe. I'm sure plenty of people here would have warped out at the realisation they were about to get screwed out of their orb, probably yourself included. We can just hope he's learnt and never has to "screw over" a known jerkwad again. You keep defending a leader who appears to have changed the rules on the fly an didn't bother to clarify what he wanted before they left jeuno. You know why people like Rog think the OP is wrong? They enjoy screwing people over who they see as more stupid than themselves.
Sure he might not have made the greatest deal, but I don't think that was intentional to be honest, at least he had the smarts to warp out before he got totally burnt.
My 2 cents.
This post says it all. You agreed and knew the agreement when going in. The chance to lot BB item for in exchange for your shank. I hate to say it but yes you are in the wrong here. If you had asked before getting started the question of what happens if it doesn't drop the BB item you probably wouldn't be having this issue because if you are like me you wouldn't have gone.
Did you not read the part about the deal being clarified by the leader and being quite different from the original one?
Greatguardian
05-18-2011, 05:51 AM
The deal wasn't clarified by the leader halfway through. The original deal was YPYD only.
The OP then convinced the group that KS99 still dropped BB items (He says themselves that they thought it did not), and that he wanted them, and they finally said "Okay fine, you can lot the BB item if it drops on our orbs but in exchange we get your shank."
I'm not being an asswipe because of what the OP did, even if it was really stupid. I'm being an asswipe because he's spent the past 15 pages trying to play up a pity party for himself and refuses to acknowledge any wrongdoing or mistake on his part. None. At. All. According to him, he made 0 mistakes, and was simply conned from the get-go. Total crap.
blowfin
05-18-2011, 05:56 AM
I'm not being an asswipe because of what the OP did, even if it was really stupid. I'm being an asswipe because he's spent the past 15 pages trying to play up a pity party for himself and refuses to acknowledge any wrongdoing or mistake on his part. None. At. All. According to him, he made 0 mistakes, and was simply conned from the get-go. Total crap.
Regardless you're ripping on the guy pretty hard for not much good reason other than the fact that he might have been a bit naive. It's unnecessary really.
And it's 6 pages, learn to change your forum settings.
Alkalinehoe
05-18-2011, 05:58 AM
Quit being such an asswipe. I'm sure plenty of people here would have warped out at the realisation they were about to get screwed out of their orb, probably yourself included. We can just hope he's learnt and never has to "screw over" a known jerkwad again. You keep defending a leader who appears to have changed the rules on the fly an didn't bother to clarify what he wanted before they left jeuno. You know why people like Rog think the OP is wrong? They enjoy screwing people over who they see as more stupid than themselves.
Sure he might not have made the greatest deal, but I don't think that was intentional to be honest, at least he had the smarts to warp out before he got totally burnt.
My 2 cents.
Did you not read the part about the deal being clarified by the leader and being quite different from the original one?
I don't even think that's the point. The OP agreed to the deal (everyone in this thread including GG agreed it was a bad deal) and was even informed by the leader before they arrived to the BC. OP either misinterpreted the rules/realized it was a bad deal/didn't feel like using his orb for whatever reason at the last minute, warped and proceeded to the forums to call the leader shady. Sure you can the leader of the KSNM group was greedy/1-sided, but as Linh clearly states before hand the leader told him he could lot the Tongue in exchange for the King pop item from his orb and Linh agreeing. Weather or not the tongue would have dropped is irrelevant, you gave up the trig drop from your orb at a shot for a BB item.
blowfin
05-18-2011, 06:08 AM
I don't even think that's the point. The OP agreed to the deal (everyone in this thread including GG agreed it was a bad deal) and was even informed by the leader before they arrived to the BC. OP either misinterpreted the rules/realized it was a bad deal/didn't feel like using his orb for whatever reason at the last minute, warped and proceeded to the forums to call the leader shady. Sure you can the leader of the KSNM group was greedy/1-sided, but as Linh clearly states before hand the leader told him he could lot the Tongue in exchange for the King pop item from his orb and Linh agreeing. Weather or not the tongue would have dropped is irrelevant, you gave up the trig drop from your orb at a shot for a BB item.
That's the thing though, that wasn't the deal he entered into.
It was a classic case of misinterpretation.
Blame sits evenly with both the leader and the member if the deal isn't clarified.
Leader accepted the deal believing he'd get a free shank, or plotting to get a free shank. It's possible he hid details to his own advantage.
OP accepted the deal believing he'd get a tongue OR a shank. Which to be perfectly blunt, is pretty reasonable if the only thing he wants is the BB item. WHY WOULD YOU CHOOSE TO VOLUNTARILY COME BACK FROM THE BC WITH NOTHING? The OP isn't quite stupid enough to do that, and in his mind, that wasn't something he was doing.
OP tried to clarify the deal before his orb. Discovered it was quite different than what he assumed (the fair and reasonable thing). Warps out.
Those are the facts. Regardless of whether the leader was shady or not the fact remains that he let his run be a total going show and didn't attempt to iron out the misunderstandings in the deal before our OP warped out. Not that he would have cared because he already had his shank.
HFX7686
05-18-2011, 06:17 AM
Well, if nothing else this thread has taught a number of people that they either need to get very clear details concerning in game details or get friends to do stuff with. Hopefully teaching Linh most of all.
blowfin
05-18-2011, 06:18 AM
Well, if nothing else this thread has taught a number of people that they either need to get very clear details concerning in game details or get friends to do stuff with. Hopefully teaching Linh most of all.
Exactly. This whole exercise has been quite painful, I hope somebody has at least learnt something.
Alkalinehoe
05-18-2011, 06:36 AM
That's the thing though, that wasn't the deal he entered into.
It was a classic case of misinterpretation.
Blame sits evenly with both the leader and the member if the deal isn't clarified.
I disagree. Sometimes when I lead shit I feel like I have explained the rules clearly. In this case, it's the member's responsibility to ask for clarification if they still do not understand the rules.
Leader accepted the deal believing he'd get a free shank, or plotting to get a free shank. It's possible he hid details to his own advantage.
Clearly. It's obvious the leader just wanted the trig for Behe. But key word, possible. Right now the OP has no SSs and the only thing we have to go on is his story, which he said was informed of the new agreement before the BC.
OP accepted the deal believing he'd get a tongue OR a shank. Which to be perfectly blunt, is pretty reasonable if the only thing he wants is the BB item. WHY WOULD YOU CHOOSE TO VOLUNTARILY COME BACK FROM THE BC WITH NOTHING? The OP isn't quite stupid enough to do that, and in his mind, that wasn't something he was doing.
I don't even.... You gave up your orb for a chance at a BB item. Weather or not it dropped is irrelevant. People had their orb before him and he had a chance to lot on those tongues if it dropped. It didn't, the OP got scared and ran away when his turn was up. The idea of your drop not dropping and you can take something else isn't reasonable, it borders on greed. If we did a seal NM, let's say with a pop set that is somewhat expensive (like Amarok), and in the first few pops no DNC seals dropped and my turn was up. I decided not to pop because I wanted to have all the other seals go to me too if DNC didn't drop. Would that really be a reasonable request?
OP tried to clarify the deal before his orb. Discovered it was quite different than what he assumed (the fair and reasonable thing). Warps out.
Again, wasn't fair or reasonable. He did try to clarify it, but he was still confused. It's up to him to try to understand.
Those are the facts.
Except not.
Regardless you're ripping on the guy pretty hard for not much good reason other than the fact that he might have been a bit naive. It's unnecessary really.
And it's 6 pages, learn to change your forum settings.
It was only 5 pages when he said it. learn to set your forum settings properly.
I feel like both sides were conning here. Linh talks like s/he understood the con, and was planning to warp out period if they didn't get a tongue in their inventory on the first two kills and was told no to keeping the shank. Come time for Linhs orb and no tongue yet, they ask to keep their shank out of "common courtesy", and was told no. And so they warped out. Was this pew character trying to rob someone of their shank? Sure. Was Linh right to prevent it? Sure. Was Linh wrong for trying to do their own "confidence man tactic" ? Yeeeeeeep. Sorry Linh, but the fact that you were trying to confirm the deal or change it or whatever when it was your time to pop says a lot. It says you knew something was up. I don't think you were as dumb about it as you lead on. It sounds like you agreed to give up your shank for a better chance to get a tongue if it dropped, and when it didn't drop you were begging to keep your shank so you don't leave empty handed. And now you make this thread complaining about how the others weren't being courteous by letting you keep your orb.
That's how I see this. And until you provide us with the whole story or screenshots that probably don't exist, I have no choice but to stick to this mindset. He tried to con you. It didn't work. You tried to con him back by playing dumb. It didn't work. Life goes on. Also I just want to point out that it is insulting to relate con men with some of the things you did. Con men are con men. All races. All religions. All everything. You should be grateful Pewwhateverhisnameis was straight up with you when you asked. That was courteous enough, con man or not. He could have lied to your face and said sure, you can keep it.
If you were as oblivious as you lead on, you never would have asked them about your shank. You would have used your orb due to lack of wisdom and maybe gotten screwed out of a shank. So really, want to tell us another story? 'cause I promise you right now if you come out and tell the truth we'll think more highly of you regardless we lead that on or not in following replies. If by some miracle your story is 100% true and you are innocent of any wrong doing then you're just going to have to live with some people thinking what they're going to think. Learn from your mistake of making this thread and move on. And for the love of God, the cliche is "con man."
Was this pew character trying to rob someone of their shank? Sure.Uh, no he was not.
blowfin
05-18-2011, 10:33 AM
Uh, no he was not.
Haha. I'm pretty positive his eyes would have lit right up when the OP agreed to the deal.
Free shank! Hell yeah! Of course I agree. Christmas has come early, and all I have to do is give the guy the chance to lot a drop that's useless to me.
Maybe it should be re-phrased though. While he might not have intended to rip off the OP, he would have been more than happy to relieve him of his shank with little or nothing to show for it. How you can rationalise doing that and effectively wasting someone's orb if tongue doesn't drop, I'll never know.
Haha. I'm pretty positive his eyes would have lit right up when the OP agreed to the deal.
Free shank! Hell yeah! Of course I agree. Christmas has come early, and all I have to do is give the guy the chance to lot a drop that's useless to me.
Maybe it should be re-phrased though. While he might not have intended to rip off the OP, he would have been more than happy to relieve him of his shank with little or nothing to show for it. How you can rationalise doing that and effectively wasting someone's orb if tongue doesn't drop, I'll never know.Just because he did not have to give anything up (that he cared about) does not the OP did not get anything. It was a great deal for futchy, and a mediocre deal for the OP (but not really terrible).
Regardless, the OP agreed to give it up, and then refused when it was time to pay for the chances he already got.
blowfin
05-18-2011, 11:25 AM
Regardless, the OP agreed to give it up, and then refused when it was time to pay for the chances he already got.
Did he agree to give it up though? I thought the crux of the issue at the moment was the deal wasn't properly understood by both parties (and if you don't think it is you might need to review the last few pages). How on earth are you backing out of a deal if you weren't aware you were in that deal in the first place?
I'd like to hear something else other than the OP being called a liar and a cheat. If you can't muster that then don't bother.
P.S. It was a terrible deal for the OP whichever way you look at it. Until he warped out.
Did he agree to give it up though? I thought the crux of the issue at the moment was the deal wasn't properly understood by both parties (and if you don't think it is you might need to review the last few pages). How on earth are you backing out of a deal if you weren't aware you were in that deal in the first place?
I'd like to hear something else other than the OP being called a liar and a cheat. If you can't muster that then don't bother.
P.S. It was a terrible deal for the OP whichever way you look at it. Until he warped out.Yes he did agree to. He just was not aware that he did (apparently). It is his fault for not bothering to understand what the word "chance" means.
Greatguardian
05-18-2011, 11:41 AM
Yes he did agree to. He just was not aware that he did (apparently). It is his fault for not bothering to understand what the word "chance" means.
What I've gleaned from reading the OP's posts here is that he most definitely was aware what he was agreeing to. He simply had second thoughts when he realized that his gamble may not pay off in his favor, and got greedy.
Instead of FFXI, pretend this was a carnival game.
Host: "If you give me $5, I'll let you throw this ring 3 times. If it lands on a bottleneck, you get a stuffed animal."
Linh: "Okay. "
Linh throws twice and misses
Linh: "So, before I throw this last one, I get my money back if I miss right?"
Host: "What? Of course not, you paid for chances to get a prize. That has nothing to do with whether or not you got one."
Linh: "Confidence Man!!"
blowfin
05-18-2011, 12:22 PM
What I've gleaned from reading the OP's posts here is that he most definitely was aware what he was agreeing to. He simply had second thoughts when he realized that his gamble may not pay off in his favor, and got greedy.
You've assumed that for some reason or another, whether it's to back your own argument or what I don't know. But there isn't any proof.
Plus he pretty clearly said on the last page that the final deal was not what he thought he agreed to. Even Rog had the sense to see that.
Greatguardian
05-18-2011, 12:43 PM
Like I said, that's simply the notion I've been given by the OP's posts. Without screenshots, there's no proof either way so it's really a moot point. As for claiming he didn't know what the deal was, I'd say feigning ignorance at best. Maybe I expect too much from people, but if the options are the OP being either greedy or dumb, I don't see any reason to support him.
HFX7686
05-18-2011, 12:44 PM
You've assumed that for some reason or another, whether it's to back your own argument or what I don't know. But there isn't any proof.
Plus he pretty clearly said on the last page that the final deal was not what he thought he agreed to. Even Rog had the sense to see that.
No, he repeatedly pointed out that he was getting a chance to lot on a tongue. He knew the wording and he surely knows what the word chance means. He has been trying to get sympathy because he agreed to a bad deal.
blowfin
05-18-2011, 12:48 PM
Maybe I expect too much from people
Yep, that's probably it in a nutshell.
Zyeriis
05-18-2011, 12:51 PM
Like I said, that's simply the notion I've been given by the OP's posts. Without screenshots, there's no proof either way so it's really a moot point. As for claiming he didn't know what the deal was, I'd say feigning ignorance at best. Maybe I expect too much from people, but if the options are the OP being either greedy or dumb, I don't see any reason to support him.
I think I love this line, since you expect too much of the OP and the OP expected way too much out of the deal. It's a tad ironic isn't it?
...If you were as oblivious as you lead on, you never would have asked them about your shank...
I asked them about my shank, because when it was time to /random for the second person to go, I asked if I could just simply go last and let Pewpeww's friend go 2nd, because if it didn't drop the Tongue still, I would want to keep my Shank (unless my orb dropped a Tongue) This was when he mentioned that this wasn't the deal we made and he doesn't play that way. When I was about to ask if this means I can lot their Shank on their 3rd run (assuming I won the /random and went 2nd) if the Tongue still had not dropped then, he DCed.
I alt tabbed out to surf the net while waiting for him to come back. Minutes later I see they're already in without me and he hasn't said anything. I said "wb", and he said "I wasn't away."
So I thought to myself, "aren't you just supposed to say "ty", even if that wasn't the case? Ya know, like conversations at a retail store. Cashier says how are you? You reply fine ty, even if you really aren't fine."
So the 2nd run ended, and now it was time for my orb. Since he hasn't said anything besides the "I wasn't away." during the 2nd run, this was when I asked the question about the Shank again. and where he "clarified" it.
And hey wb Zy. Thought the story ended and you were walkin away.
Zyeriis
05-18-2011, 01:23 PM
And the story continues to change. Great assumptive powers btw, I'm not surprised (at how you try to twist things). End of story = it ended, you're just changing it now (in a very ugly and poor manner that changes absolutely nothing). Me saying I'm not going to repeat myself again = I haven't repeated myself. Troll thread is still troll thread.
*Waits to be called a confidence man or that I don't have "common courtesy (which to Linh = he deserves stuff for free/deals where he gets increased chance don't get respected or completed if it doesn't happen because increased chance means 100% or it's not an increase)" or that I'm kicking my fellow man or some other nonsense (I don't consider people like Linh who bail because they didn't get what they want as a "fellow man" to begin with though).
blowfin
05-18-2011, 01:31 PM
And the story continues to change. Great assumptive powers btw, I'm not surprised (at how you try to twist things). End of story = it ended, you're just changing it now (in a very ugly and poor manner that changes absolutely nothing). Me saying I'm not going to repeat myself again = I haven't repeated myself. Troll thread is still troll thread.
ITT: giving people more information when they ask for it is "changing the story".
Maybe don't jump to conclusions quite so fast?
Zyeriis
05-18-2011, 01:37 PM
ITT: giving people more information when they ask for it is "changing the story".
Maybe don't jump to conclusions quite so fast?
One would think that throwing in the fact that he didn't even help on the second run, would be changing the story (makes him look even worse if you ask me).
One would think that throwing in the fact that he didn't even help on the second run, would be changing the story (makes him look even worse if you ask me).
It had only been a few mins when I tabbed back in. They were jus finished buffin and started running towards Chlve-whatever when I entered the BC.
HFX7686
05-18-2011, 05:30 PM
I asked them about my shank, because when it was time to /random for the second person to go, I asked if I could just simply go last and let Pewpeww's friend go 2nd, because if it didn't drop the Tongue still, I would want to keep my Shank (unless my orb dropped a Tongue) This was when he mentioned that this wasn't the deal we made and he doesn't play that way. When I was about to ask if this means I can lot their Shank on their 3rd run (assuming I won the /random and went 2nd) if the Tongue still had not dropped then, he DCed.
I alt tabbed out to surf the net while waiting for him to come back. Minutes later I see they're already in without me and he hasn't said anything. I said "wb", and he said "I wasn't away."
So I thought to myself, "aren't you just supposed to say "ty", even if that wasn't the case? Ya know, like conversations at a retail store. Cashier says how are you? You reply fine ty, even if you really aren't fine."
So the 2nd run ended, and now it was time for my orb. Since he hasn't said anything besides the "I wasn't away." during the 2nd run, this was when I asked the question about the Shank again. and where he "clarified" it.
So you knew before you even randomed for your turn that the deal you agreed to was a bad deal and you tried to change it. The problem is, you did agree to the original deal...you didn't need clarifications because you tried to change it before your orb...therefore you were still in the wrong about dodging the deal that you agreed to.
I don't know, why did you make this thread anyway? To teach people not to make bad deals? I think you misunderstand the meaning of 'common courtesy'.
Arcon
05-18-2011, 05:48 PM
P.S. It was a terrible deal for the OP whichever way you look at it. Until he warped out.
OP said himself he doesn't care for a Defending Ring. Which means, he's only after the tongue. Which means, it was a good deal.
YOYD:
25% chance for tongue
Chance at KB: 5%
Assuming 100% chance for KB tongue drop (which is false, because SE lowered it):
Total chance to obtain a tongue is 30%
If he gives up his shank for a chance to lot the other two orbs:
1-75%^3 = 58% chance to obtain a tongue
How can you argue with that? How is that not better for him (twice as good)?
And the OP understood him wrong, that's all that happened. There's no arguing there, it's not a matter of opinion, the deal couldn't be clearer, there was no need for an additional clause "You lot tongues, we lot shanks", how hard is that to understand? Where is the ambiguity?
Plus he pretty clearly said on the last page that the final deal was not what he thought he agreed to. Even Rog had the sense to see that.
I followed that with "apparently". Apparently meaning supposedly. As in, he said he did not understand the deal. I have no idea if he actually did or not.
So you knew before you even randomed for your turn that the deal you agreed to was a bad deal and you tried to change it.
No, the deal I thought I agreed to was giving my shank and in return obtaining the BB item.
Miiyo
05-18-2011, 11:10 PM
Rog's Conversation Skill has gone up a few levels. I see multiple sentences in some of his/her posts. Tis a good site to see.
Common courtesy is nice but shouldn't be expected. I pay to play. I owe you nothing and vise versa. Human nature should be expected more than anything. Most people aren't jerks, but everyone wants something and that is when frustration comes in.
Greatguardian
05-19-2011, 12:08 AM
I think I love this line, since you expect too much of the OP and the OP expected way too much out of the deal. It's a tad ironic isn't it?
I expect a modicum of intelligence when dealing with people. The OP expected a "courtesy" which has absolutely nothing to do with courtesy. The OP expected to get something for nothing. The OP expected to "Play till you when". The OP expected to get money back on his lottery tickets if he didn't win Mega Millions.
His expectations and my expectations are nothing to be compared.
Korpg
05-19-2011, 12:51 AM
/popcorn
Love this thread, I can see a lot of future liberal lawyers coming out from this thread.
You know, the kind that would try to break a contract because it was "unfair" for them even though the other side did their part of the bargain.
Although, I don't condone Futchy's methodology in the deal. It was a bad deal on itself, and the OP should have seen it as a bad deal. Since he didn't, he should be the one to pay the price for a service of a bad deal, learn from his mistake, and move on. Futchy can't survive on bad deals alone, so this one time was probably a lucky break for him.
My advice to the OP? Life is hard, you better learn that you can't leech off of other's "kindness" because in the end, only one person counts in this world, and that is yourself (message to everyone, yourself means that person who is reading this post, not the person this post was intended for).
Arlynne
05-19-2011, 01:28 AM
Linh just come clean with the full story if you want sympathy.
He brought 2 characters to the BCNM. He had agreed to give up one of his shanks in exchange for being able to lot the tongue when it dropped. After Pewpew's run, which went smoothly, he went and they failed because Pewpew left the bcnm at 10% thinking they would be fine to finish without him. When Linh was asking if he had to give up his other shank to lot the tongue, the Leader rushed into the next bcnm before answering him. At this point most of us would be upset if not suspicious. So yeah he didn't want to have to give up his other shank if the tongue didn't drop since Pewpew had caused them to fail Linh's first run. IDK if Pewpew did that on purpose, but he was in Jueno selling King Behemoth runs the next day so I wouldn't put it past him to try and monopolize the market.
Gallus
05-19-2011, 01:44 AM
Love this thread, I can see a lot of future liberal lawyers coming out from this thread.
My thoughts exactly lol. The mindset is completely bonkers to me. It's as if he can't grasp the basic concept of a (verbal) contract or their mechanics.
Korpg
05-19-2011, 03:08 AM
My thoughts exactly lol. The mindset is completely bonkers to me. It's as if he can't grasp the basic concept of a (verbal) contract or their mechanics.
That requires a course of basic Business Law to know though. Most people wouldn't understand that, and they are the ones who vote lawyers into Congress and "other places."
Then those lawyers make it so other lawyers can change the system into a "fair" system which undermines the whole contractual concept to make it so "little people" can be "protected" from "big bad corporations" which turns out that the people who take advantage of these new rules are the lawyers and their "clients."
But thats beyond the point.
The point being: Know what you are getting into, because you can't expect anyone to back out of a contract agreement after they fulfilled their part of the agreement. Thats like doing work for nothing.
Volkai
05-19-2011, 03:09 AM
/popcorn
Love this thread, I can see a lot of future liberal lawyers coming out from this thread.
You know, the kind that would try to break a contract because it was "unfair" for them even though the other side did their part of the bargain.
Right, because Republicans never break contracts... like, say, with teacher's unions for example.
Oh wait.
Let's keep the politics out of this, alright?
Korpg
05-19-2011, 03:12 AM
Right, because Republicans never break contracts... like, say, with teacher's unions for example.
Oh wait.
Let's keep the politics out of this, alright?
Politicians are corrupt period. There are not left/right wing honesty there. Thats why I don't trust any politicians or anyone who freely associate themselves with a political party, because that limits their thinking to one viewpoint.
But yeah, lets keep the politics out of this.
Yarly
05-19-2011, 03:16 AM
I fail to see the reason for this thread. These kinds of stories are stupid and baseless.
Volkai
05-19-2011, 03:20 AM
I fail to see the reason for this thread. These kinds of stories are stupid and baseless.
To learn who does or does not follow Wil Wheaton's Law.
Khiinroye
05-19-2011, 03:49 AM
The deal was
"I'll give you the chance to lot on the Tongue if it drops, in return I get your shank."
Pewpeww meant
"I'll give you the (chance to lot on the Tongue if it drops), in return I get your shank."
wherein the shank is forfeit either way.
The OP thought he was agreeing to
"I'll give you the chance to (lot on the Tongue if it drops), in return I get your shank."
wherein the tongue would need to drop to for the trade.
Same word order, different interpretations, both valid. Clarify next time.
It should have been "The first tongue that drops on our orbs is yours, but we get your shank whether or not it drops."
Kindra
05-19-2011, 03:54 AM
Quit being such an asswipe. I'm sure plenty of people here would have warped out at the realisation they were about to get screwed out of their orb, probably yourself included. We can just hope he's learnt and never has to "screw over" a known jerkwad again. You keep defending a leader who appears to have changed the rules on the fly an didn't bother to clarify what he wanted before they left jeuno. You know why people like Rog think the OP is wrong? They enjoy screwing people over who they see as more stupid than themselves.
Sure he might not have made the greatest deal, but I don't think that was intentional to be honest, at least he had the smarts to warp out before he got totally burnt.
My 2 cents.
Did you not read the part about the deal being clarified by the leader and being quite different from the original one?
I did read. I read that "The shank was part of the original deal, yes." Which tells me he knew. and I also read where he asked that question. The timing of that question was self serving. It came at a point when the tongue hadn't dropped yet and he then tries to change the deal because of it.
He was given a chance to lot on the tongue if it dropped in exchange for the shank. We all know the drop rates of BB items in a KSNM are low to begin with. So he had to have known that there was also the chance it would not have dropped at all before going in.
I'm sorry Blowfin but this is what I have read.
No, the deal I thought I agreed to was giving my shank and in return obtaining the BB item.
Hey, guess what? If you speak fluent english, people are going to expect you to understand words that all 4 year olds understand. If you do not, then you should just suck it up, and give up the item you promised to give up, if only as payment for teaching you such a valuable piece of vocabulary.
Arlynne
05-19-2011, 05:12 AM
Hey, guess what? If you speak fluent english, people are going to expect you to understand words that all 4 year olds understand. If you do not, then you should just suck it up, and give up the item you promised to give up, if only as payment for teaching you such a valuable piece of vocabulary.
However, perfectly reasonable English-speaking person could interpret the arrangement as being "I get your shank If the tongue drops". English is not a simple language where every piece of dialogue is always perfectly clear, there are nuance to language that is often lost over written media. Can you honestly say you have never read a post and been unable to tell whether the post was sarcastic? Besides if you had read my post you'd see that Pewpew screwed himself out of a shank and Linh out of an orb.
However, perfectly reasonable English-speaking person could interpret the arrangement as being "I get your shank If the tongue drops". English is not a simple language where every piece of dialogue is always perfectly clear, there are nuance to language that is often lost over written media. Can you honestly say you have never read a post and been unable to tell whether the post was sarcastic? Besides if you had read my post you'd see that Pewpew screwed himself out of a shank and Linh out of an orb.
I have never read the word "chance" and took it to mean anything else, no.
Jeff wants item A
Sue wants item B
A and B both drop from the fight
they go together so they each get two chances to get the item they want
Sue trades her item for them to fight
neither item drops
Jeff decides he doesn’t like just the one chance at his item so he says, “well since I didn’t get A from yours I get B if it drops in mine”
Sue: “But B didn’t drop in mine and I don’t even want A”
Jeff: “Well I didn’t get what I wanted from yours, so I’ll leave and do this deal again with someone else for more chances”
*Jeff warps out*
*Sue looks at her empty hands and begins to cry*
basically a scenario for what happened.
You didnt like that you didnt get the drop from his so didnt want to burn yours even though he burnt his for you to get a chance.
I used to get it in YOTD when I'd go we'd do their orb then theyd warp away, thanks for the help and drops, gl with yours
YOU are the one who did wrong OP
leonorado
02-27-2012, 07:23 AM
so if the tongue had dropped on their orb and you won the lot would you be posting this?
Glamdring
02-27-2012, 08:08 AM
this is the problem with any popped content. Ideally, if a group goes together to do multiple attempts at x it should be that all pops are consumed, whether you choose to use it come your turn or not. That would end the whiney puss-bags that just quit when they find out the drop isn't theirs no matter who's pop it's from.
simple answer, if you commit to the runs with a rule on drops for the group then you are commited. quit before the runs are done and yeah, you're an ass.
Veran
02-28-2012, 12:07 PM
How much should it matter in this game?
A player named Pewpeww shouted for a YOYD "Horns of War". After I clarified that the Behemoth Tongue still drops in Horns of War per this post:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/5782-Dev-1009-Force-Pop-HNM-s-FTW?p=80514#post80514
He sent me a tell saying that he'll give me a chance to lot BB item on both his and his LS-mate's orb if it dropped.
When it was my turn (3rd/last) the Tongue still had not dropped. I asked if I still get to keep my shank if my orb didn't drop Tongue. He said that wasn't part of the deal I made, that it wasn't his fault I misinterpret the deal.
"The deal was not for the BB item itself, but the chance for you to lot it if it drops on our orb. Even if it doesn't drop on your orb, we still get your shank. You misinterpret the deal, not our fault."
Is this what you call a "Confidence Man Tactic"? Cuz through the "fine print/contract" he is right, but not through the "General Perception" or "Common Courtesy" way.
Those are the moment you /blm and d2 one of them while they're not looking.
Maybe you'd get lucky getting them both without one running away.
Jokes Jokes. Even though i've always wanted to do it lol.
wish12oz
02-28-2012, 11:44 PM
typing in a 10 month old thread that has no relevance.
Trumpy
02-29-2012, 02:28 AM
ok i keep seeing "chance at shank." isnt that a 100% drop? i thought it was and every bcnm ive done since the change dropped a shank (but no tongue /sigh).