Page 4 GoV in Toraimarai Canal: Mission Impossible?

[Puck]

It seems that in their deranged fervor to add a boatload of high-level mobs in Toraimarai Canal (which NOBODY wants to fight on an overcrowded merged server), the devs forgot to leave in many of the old mobs. The ones they did leave in are a huge pain to get to.

Only a few Impish Bats, Stygian Pugils and Dire Bats remain for page 4. There are just BARELY enough to complete the page for one person or one party. Using Wide Scan I only managed to locate a few in the middle of map 2, surrounded by some of those neat aggroing high-level mobs everyone loves so much.

Also, to get to these very few mobs you have to pretty much run across an entire zone which is already hard to navigate. And hope that you can kill them without being swarmed by the high level mobs. Then make it all the way across the zone back to the book in a place where there are now even fewer calm areas to cast Sneak or use Spectral Jig (skeletons and bats on the walkways, pugils in the water, either can aggro no matter which level you're on).

This could have been a good alternative to Bostaunieux Oubliette for levels 60-80, which is pretty crowded now, but the lack of mobs and extreme difficulty getting to them makes Toraimarai an even deader zone than before GoV was added.

Most of those high level mobs can be removed, nobody's fighting them, there's no need for there to be so many. What in the world made them think SO MANY level 90 players were DYING to level outside Abyssea and needed level 95-98 mobs to fight in horrible dungeon zones? They added so many that the zone could easily support five full parties of level 90 players and there would still be more than enough mobs to go around.

Oh, and thanks again for the massive hordes of high-level mobs in Toraimarai Canal; it used to be a nice Magian trials location. Now it's sure to be a place that people only begrudgingly enter for AF quests and missions, now made a hundred times more frustrating to traverse.

[Octaviane]

While I like the idea of GoV in Dungeons, I have to agree with the OP having checked a few and seen the post in the In-Game bugs section here. Players are unable to complete AF 1, especially in Behemoth's Dominion because the mobs don't spawn, can't progress through ZM5 for the same reason and in Garlaige Citadel the coffer key mobs in the basement have been confined to a small area that requires you to run through a bat, beetle and bomb invasion to get to. Snk and Invis absolutely, it's just common sense, but SE stated very clearly that the entrances would be free of high level mobs. Well, the entrance to the basement isn't. Drop without stealth = die. Too many mobs in all the wrong places, not enough books. By contrast, Fei'Yin seems to be fine, but I noticed mob levels pages 7/8 are 95-100 which would need a good old fashioned party to beat. Not sure how many do those anymore. This will be similar to when they added Idle Wanderers and such to Promyvion areas. They were packed for a couple of weeks until the novelty wore off, but at least they were put out of the way of people trying to get to MR's or doing Tactic pearl quests.

This was a poorly planned addition to FFXI. However, SE answered what people asked for which was xp outside of Abyssea, they just didn't take the time to properly research and implement it. The ToAU and Campaign areas would have been a better choice, a more commonsensical progression of mob levels and difficulty than Dungeons and might have breathed some life back into both scenarios.

Oh well, I still enjoy what we do have, it's still worth my $14.95 a month. Guess I will stick around until they turn the servers off. :)

[Baccanale]

Greetings, Puck!
Thank you for taking the time to voice your concerns about the changes to the mob layout in Toraimarai Canal. Since this thread is commenting on changes in the game, I made sure to move the thread from "In-Game Bugs" to "General Discussion," so that the thread can have the proper visibility for others that may want to contribute to it. Thanks again for your participation!

[Akujima]

Im going to have to agree with this new monster placement.

They could have picked ALOT better area's that are completely unused or even unheard of. Not to mention Page 4 in Crawler's Nest is kind of ridiculous... 4 exoray and 2 hornfly to complete the page and there are like 1 exoray per 4 hornfly, which makes no sense from a design point of view. The other Exoray in Crawler's Nest are nowhere near hornfly either.


Better Area's to put higher Lv monsters:
(not sure if some of these have already been update)

Carpenter's Landing
Sea Serpent Grotto
Phomiuna Aqueducts
Purgonorgo Isle

[Crawlerbasher]

I've noticed a lot of high level mobs in places that prevent low level players from getting to there target spot for a cs or even fights.

Inner Horutoto Ruins been one of them where you go in its all too week to a high level player then there is a section were there are all easy pray to tough and once you go even deeper in, its all too week again.

I'm all for this new ground of valor thing.
But putting it in zones were people need to go to get there quest or missions completed is not helping anyone.
Specially the new players.

Don't know why there can't create a new zone.

I.e

round about G-7 of Konschtat highlands there is a tunnel that leads to a dead end.
K-7 Batallia Downs there is another tunnel that leads to a dead end.

These tunnels could be modified to lead to a new zone a new dungeons for higher level mobs
And still have pages in the lower level zones for the new and low level players as well.

And them 2 are not the only tunnels that lead to a dead end, I've seen a few more in the game.

Shoving very high level mobs in a zone full of low level mid level mobs is not helping at all.

I believe that zones should be balanced when it comes to mobs level.
one you got one extreme to another it does not help.

ie level 1 mob and then hey look a lvl 80 mob.

[wish12oz]

What in the world made them think SO MANY level 90 players were DYING to level outside Abyssea and needed level 95-98 mobs to fight in horrible dungeon zones?

I know the answer to this, it was all the people on these forums screaming that they wanted to exp like they use to before abyssea.

[Aldersyde]

I know the answer to this, it was all the people on these forums screaming that they wanted to exp like they use to before abyssea.

Lol this. Doesn't anyone else remember the clamor on these forums about Abyssea making the game completely easymode? I do. Chalk another up for the old adage be careful what you wish for.

What's the big deal anyway? Are they true sight? Because if you weren't using sneak and invisible before for af quests here you were just wasting yours and your party's time.

[Zyeriis]

Lol this. Doesn't anyone else remember the clamor on these forums about Abyssea making the game completely easymode? I do. Chalk another up for the old adage be careful what you wish for.

What's the big deal anyway? Are they true sight? Because if you weren't using sneak and invisible before for af quests here you were just wasting yours and your party's time.

Some one clearly hasn't actually researched what they added. What good is sneak/invisible in a room with a "???" point where you have to pop a NM (or 3) that is surrounded by level 100ish ghosts? One ghost might not kill you but, rest assured, the rest will kill you when you hit yellow hp and aggro them.

"So sneak pop it!" Sorry, how many pop NMs don't auto-aggro and attack and wipe your sneak?

Note: I'm referring to the ghosts they added to Fei'Yin.

Edit: Doesn't anyone remember the very same threads that didn't want AF quests and the like to be interfered with, before the update?

[Aldersyde]

"So sneak pop it!" Sorry, how many pop NMs don't auto-aggro and attack and wipe your sneak?

Well, try moving faster when you pop. If you're just standing there, you've kind of missed the point of sneak popping in the first place.

[Amanie]

ever get the feeling that old dev team is back on 11? the new team was getting things done well, ppl were happy for the most part. having fun and what not. but now all these half thought-out updates are only causing headaches and sadness.

[Kensagaku]

Well, try moving faster when you pop. If you're just standing there, you've kind of missed the point of sneak popping in the first place.

This.

Now, that aside, gonna put in my own two cents about this whole thing. Personally, I've had next to no problems with the new GoV, though to be fair I haven't been to Toraimorai Canal since the update. Finished my BLM AF1 set pre-update and never bothered to look back. That aside, I've popped by Fei'Yin (and got pwned by level 95 bats. D: They're too clustered to easily pull without massive linkga!), Garlaige (Note to self: bring stun for bombs. 2400 Self-Destructs aren't fun), Inner Horutoto Ruins (Don't do the skele pages as a THF, it's asking for headdesks at long fights) and Zeruhn Mines (that ring doesn't exist), and all of them are pretty decent. If you're having a problem getting around, invest in Silent Oils, Prism Powders, or a job/subjob with stealth. Not so hard, since they're not truesight/sound mobs.

The only complaint I have so far is that I'm not sure what happened with some of the old lottery NMs in the areas that GoV was added to. Are they still there with the same PHs, are there new PHs? Granted I haven't done extensive searching yet but as I recall they moved Serket's spawn (this is a timed spawn, I know, but it's the first NM that comes to mind) as an example.

Also +1, ^ or whatever to all of those people who said this is the result of people complaining about Abyssea EXP. You asked, SE delivered.

[Saefinn]

I like what they were going for, something more of a challenge, more stuff for lower levels, more stuff for higher levels outside of Aby, plus a different way of skilling up, but their choice of where to put the higher level mobs? Ridiculous. There's plenty of places where high level mobs can go. What about WoTG areas? Or some ToAU areas? Most of the mobs there are Easy Prey to a 90, it wouldn't actually be that crazy so long as too many camps aren't invaded, so if somebody needs to kill a mob in a particular zone, they can and without unnecessary aggro.

[Akujima]

ever get the feeling that old dev team is back on 11? the new team was getting things done well, ppl were happy for the most part. having fun and what not. but now all these half thought-out updates are only causing headaches and sadness.


I sure as hell hope this is true, then maybe the game mechanics can actually get fixed. Considering how badly the new Dev team botched the whole game, I'm hoping they come back and finally do things right.

[Aldersyde]

I sure as hell hope this is true, then maybe the game mechanics can actually get fixed. Considering how badly the new Dev team botched the whole game, I'm hoping they come back and finally do things right.

I hear ff14 is pretty grindy. Why don't you go give that a whirl.

[Zarchery]

I feel like I should throw in some whiny comment about how you're all a bunch of babies for sissifying the game, because the thread just wouldn't be complete without such an obligatory post.

[Rambus]

This problem exists because of the dev not listening to people's comments on the update notes. When they first pointed out adding higher mobs/ NMs, w/e in these areas I said it was a bad idea and that they need to go somewhere else.

what is the point of these forums if SE is going to do this:

post update notes
people point out flaws in notes
SE does what they want anyway.

SE did this before and I really did not like it, like how they lifted caps of cap zones and put random high level mobs in the area, why not put them in places where no one goes / uses; not in places where they will get in the way of people doing low level quests and such.

show how we are impacting your update notes, stop ignoring us or stop having these forums if they are going to be pointless

[Luvbunny]

GOV = nice ideas BUT horrible implementation across the dungeons = WORST idea ever. Please fix this. Add more ground tome across the dungeons to 4-5. Concentrate mobs distribution to a select few section within the areas + near 1 ground tome for easy repeat. STOP populating the entire zone with high level mobs. Easy fixes, please do this. And for the love of god, STOP adding new things that is poorly designed and implemented and instead focus on your already stretched developer resources to fix what we currently have but flawed in execution. Gukumatz for example.... please please please make this NM as popped NM and NOT claimed. In fact just get rid of claimed NM needed for the AF3+2 items. Look at what you did with the Heroes expansion, the best expansion so far.

[Krisan]

Im going to have to agree with this new monster placement.

They could have picked ALOT better area's that are completely unused or even unheard of. Not to mention Page 4 in Crawler's Nest is kind of ridiculous... 4 exoray and 2 hornfly to complete the page and there are like 1 exoray per 4 hornfly, which makes no sense from a design point of view. The other Exoray in Crawler's Nest are nowhere near hornfly either.


Better Area's to put higher Lv monsters:
(not sure if some of these have already been update)

Carpenter's Landing
Sea Serpent Grotto
Phomiuna Aqueducts
Purgonorgo Isle
The problem is that all the areas you named are expansion zones, and from a design point of view they wish to keep content like this accessible from the main game. I know, I know, who doesn't have the expansions? Especially Zilart I'm sure you wonder.. And honestly? Probably no one. But that's how they're working. This is the same reason the Abyssean Maws for Scars and Heroes are in the weird places they are - because they wanted to keep everything in the game accessible from vanilla zones.

That's not to say they can't add GoV\FoV to these zones, but it was never an option in their book to make it exclusive to these areas rather than the ones they chose.

[Karinya_of_Carbuncle]

I think they could have made more of an effort to keep the new high level mobs in separate areas, the way they did for Moongate or the high level undead part of King Ranperre's Tomb. Low level people trying to do quests and missions in KRT don't have to run right under Vrtra's nose to do them -- even hakutaku eyes can be done without getting near the high level undead. Or look at the way very different levels of monster are separated in places like Gustav Tunnel. People who want to fight the lower-level monsters and people who want to fight the higher-level monsters can each do what they want without getting in each others' way or getting a lot of aggro from the wrong kind of monsters.

[Krisan]

I think they could have made more of an effort to keep the new high level mobs in separate areas, the way they did for Moongate or the high level undead part of King Ranperre's Tomb. Low level people trying to do quests and missions in KRT don't have to run right under Vrtra's nose to do them -- even hakutaku eyes can be done without getting near the high level undead. Or look at the way very different levels of monster are separated in places like Gustav Tunnel. People who want to fight the lower-level monsters and people who want to fight the higher-level monsters can each do what they want without getting in each others' way or getting a lot of aggro from the wrong kind of monsters.
The thing is, those zones were designed that way from the get-go.. GoV mobs were just crammed into zones where it was never designed originally for them to be. There was really no way at all for it to not be a complete mess the way they approached this.. An intelligent method of implementation would have been to add new (isolated) areas in every dungeon that were specifically made for these new mobs and only for these new mobs. They apparently didn't want to waste dev time or money to do that, though..

[Alhanelem]

I've been under the impression with recent announcements that they are going to be adjusting certain pages in the future.

[Zyeriis]

Well, try moving faster when you pop. If you're just standing there, you've kind of missed the point of sneak popping in the first place.

Ah yes how silly of me, because there's no NMs with enhanced movement speed, or have fast attacks, and there's no way the enemies extend beyond the potential distance you can run before you lose sneak. Did I mention these are AF quests? I did? Oh right, I did. Talk about "missing the point in the first place."

Because if I'm gonna help a new player with their first AF quest, they need to be experienced enough to know how to pop and run, right? They won't get one shot if they screw it up, right? "Tractor them" Kthnx, I'm not a BLM and likely not on a job that would be subbing that. So, I have to aggro the whole room to get them up, and probably end up dying myself, unless I'm on thf or subbing thf (also both very unlikely as I'm not a thf) because im being attacked by 8-10 level 100+ ghosts. "Sleep them!" Not a mage. "Come on a job that can do those things" Sorry, don't have those either of those 2 jobs leveled. "So level them, leveling is easy!" Why would I want to level something I wouldn't enjoy, not to mention the inventory space and you, know, lack of ever wanting to use that job. "Level it just for that" No.

You're probably asking yourself what the point of that idiotic paragraph was? I was eliminating any more dumb responses in the pre-emp. Why'd it take me so long to respond? Was waiting for the moment to make a S&G post.

[LeaderofAtlantis]

I haven't been down in the Canal yet or most of the new Grounds of Valor zones to see where everything is, but it seems like all of these zones have a lot of the problems that Garlaige Citadel & Ranguemont Pass both have. SO, I would like to make my suggestion for where, if they wish to keep these monsters on the spawn table for these zones, they could place them. Let me start off though by saying - we don't need that many monsters in these zones. Until you make it more efficient than Abyssea, most people aren't touching these areas for experience. I would for nostalgia purposes but I'm an OLD player who likes the fun of non-zerg parties.

Garlaige Citadel: While I like not having to run around the whole basement to check for Serket when I'm bored now, having to sneak and invis at Lv90 because if I fall, I die instantly almost from the swarm below just isn't worth it. Also, what happens if poor Wanzo-Unzozo decides he wants to see the Doomed types in the end of that tunnel down there? He's essentially screwed until Lv99 parties escort him. SO, why not put the basement back to the way it was, but move these new monsters into the several rooms that are scattered behind Gates #2 and #3? At Lv75+, we have ways to get behind both gates with less than 4 people, so if we want to go there for experience, we can.

Ranguemont Pass: Why are these things right in the main path? Those 2 rooms on the east side of the map or the entire northern tunnel (Where the 3 Taisais used to sit) can be utilized for these things. A new player working on the rank missions shouldn't be seeing Lv90 creatures on their way up to the northlands where they will only run into level 50 or so creatures.

Fei'Yin: For the most part, from what I've seen, this is the one that seems to be the best overall setup, but putting them on the path to Qu'Bia Arena might have been a bit harsh. You have an entire basement area to work with. I mean you obviously can't hinder the path to the Cloister of Ice either, but there are plenty of areas off the main paths to work with. But I suppose by now, even the players ready for this zone for the first time should understand the need for sneak and invis, so it isn't too terrible.

King Ranperre's Tomb: From the Grounds of Valor pages, I'm going to assume everything is kept pretty close together with the skeletons down by Vrtra here, which is perfect... although I'm curious as to why this zone got limited to just Lv85 and lower creatures while Garlaige Citadel had Lv91+ creatures shoved in it?

Dangruf Wadi/Inner Horutoto Ruins/Outer Horutoto Ruins: Really? Why? I mean, if the stuff didn't aggro, I don't see a problem, but you put freaking Goblins in there. I mean, if you want to put high level goblins anywhere, especially near Bastok, why not inside Newton Movalpolos? I mean it's just sitting right there. In the case of these 3 zones, being so necessary early on for new players, I'd just get rid of these creatures and move them to other zones. If a player doesn't have any of the expansions at this point, do they really need to be Lv76+ anyway?

Toraimarai Canal: I think it's cool they've added Poroggos nearby present day Windurst, but surely there are places we can put these things that doesn't force a poor, unsuspecting artifact hunter to have to be even more extremely cautious. There are plenty of rooms without coffer spawns that can hold these. Wouldn't the Poroggo especially want to stay hidden down in one of these watery rooms just to make sure they aren't discovered by a Windurst extermination team should it be known they live near the capital once again? That is the story right?

Gusgen Mines/Ordelle's Cave/Maze of Shakrami: Again, I don't know why it was that necessary to put stuff in a lower level zone like this. I mean, all 3 of these zones are necessary to be gone through completely just to do some artifact quests or to get the low level RSE gear (not to mention hunting the ??? for the RSE satchet). These zones should also be used as fun "let's get to better know the game" kind of areas for newer players. I know they aren't many, but they do still exist as you guys surely have to be aware and it'll be hard to get even more if people just hear about how impossible to navigate you've made early zones.

Zeruhn Mines: Stuff isn't aggressive, so it's not a big deal.

Crawlers' Nest: I just know I've read the big room where the Strange Apparatus path is, is where the new stuff is. Again, this is where the water elementals easiest to kill for the BLM AF quest are, as well as Chest and Coffer spawns are for other Artifact quests. Yeah it's got the most space to shove things into, but why? Why not put the King Crawlers back where that Scorpion NM is? That room is fairly open. Then there's another room to the north of there where even more stuff can be placed. The Escort quest won't take you past all the high level stuff anymore either then.

Eldieme Necropolis: There are a lot of places this stuff can be put down below and honestly, anyone dropping down below with any sense would have sneak up inside here. Even at 75 1 aggro below for a party of 6, upon dropping down spelled death typically... unless you were a party of PLDs then you might stand a chance. After seeing Poroggos added inside Toraimarai Canal though, I have to ask - why weren't at least Corse added in here or perhaps some Corpselights? Here if the monsters are kept in drop down spots away from the Coffer spawns, I think we're good.

So I guess I should've done better with specifics, but I hope I made things clear enough. The main thing now is to listen to the player base and adjust things to have the least impact on older content. I hope when the test servers are implemented, this is where the players will be catching things before it's given out to the masses.

I would also like to say, start looking at the Rise of the Zilart, Chains of Promathia, Treasures of Aht Urhgan and Wings of the Goddess zones for these things. The Boyahda Tree is massive in Zilart, you have Newton Movalpolos in Promathia, Aydeewa Subturrane in Aht Urhgan, and hey, there's large, currently unused sections of the Crawlers' Nest, Garlaige Citadel, and the Necropolis in the past... in fact, it's the same spots you placed the new high level creatures - at least in the case of the first 2 zones - in the present. Why not use those for these high level creatures?

[LeaderofAtlantis]

Ok after seeing this link in another thread ( http://parchmentpaper.blogspot.com/2011/05/new-level-75-dungeon-enemies-where-they.html ), I want to amend my previous post slightly. Apparently in the big open room in the basement of the Crawlers' Nest, nothing is aggressive. That actually makes that path with Olavia a bit easier if that's the case. Toraimarai Canal is just REALLY poorly designed. I mean... why? I can't even remotely begin to dream about a reason as to why you'd do that.

[Kraggy]

The ToAU and Campaign areas would have been a better choice, a more commonsensical progression of mob levels and difficulty than Dungeons and might have breathed some life back into both scenarios.
This, 100 times this.

Given the huge boost FoV/GoV bonuses give to leveling there's zero incentive to go to the 'new' areas, even the Signet buffs are superior to those in the expansion areas so even if you don't want to fight the hordes over XoV mobs for page bonuses, you're still better off packing into Terrigan etc. .. meanwhile ToAU and WoTG zones are empty.

SE, put FoV/GoV into those, upgrade Sanction and Sigil to be on a par with Signet, give the wide open spaces of [S] a purpose beyond Campaign .. er, wait, silly me, few people Campaigned after the XP nerf, ever fewer after lolyssea .. just give the wide open spaces of [S] a purpose.

[Kraggy]

The problem is that all the areas you named are expansion zones, and from a design point of view they wish to keep content like this accessible from the main game. I know, I know, who doesn't have the expansions? Especially Zilart I'm sure you wonder.. And honestly? Probably no one. But that's how they're working. This is the same reason the Abyssean Maws for Scars and Heroes are in the weird places they are - because they wanted to keep everything in the game accessible from vanilla zones.

That's not to say they can't add GoV\FoV to these zones, but it was never an option in their book to make it exclusive to these areas rather than the ones they chose.
I don't think anyone's saying put GoV ONLY in the expansion areas, I haven't see that said in here I don't think, what people (like me) are asking for is put SOME XoV into the expansion areas which right now are full of mobs and crickets, and almost entirely devoid of players.

[Krisan]

I don't think anyone's saying put GoV ONLY in the expansion areas, I haven't see that said in here I don't think, what people (like me) are asking for is put SOME XoV into the expansion areas which right now are full of mobs and crickets, and almost entirely devoid of players.
Actually the person I was directly responding to said "they could have picked better areas than they did" and went on to name off a bunch of expansion zones at the end of his post. I was just saying that they chose the zones they did intentionally - and that's not to say I agree with their reasoning, because I don't. And yeah, I agree they should add GoV to more zones - I even said that at the end of my post.

[Aldersyde]

Ah yes how silly of me, because there's no NMs with enhanced movement speed, or have fast attacks, and there's no way the enemies extend beyond the potential distance you can run before you lose sneak. Did I mention these are AF quests? I did? Oh right, I did. Talk about "missing the point in the first place."

Because if I'm gonna help a new player with their first AF quest, they need to be experienced enough to know how to pop and run, right? They won't get one shot if they screw it up, right? "Tractor them" Kthnx, I'm not a BLM and likely not on a job that would be subbing that. So, I have to aggro the whole room to get them up, and probably end up dying myself, unless I'm on thf or subbing thf (also both very unlikely as I'm not a thf) because im being attacked by 8-10 level 100+ ghosts. "Sleep them!" Not a mage. "Come on a job that can do those things" Sorry, don't have those either of those 2 jobs leveled. "So level them, leveling is easy!" Why would I want to level something I wouldn't enjoy, not to mention the inventory space and you, know, lack of ever wanting to use that job. "Level it just for that" No.

You're probably asking yourself what the point of that idiotic paragraph was? I was eliminating any more dumb responses in the pre-emp. Why'd it take me so long to respond? Was waiting for the moment to make a S&G post.

I was specifically talking about the technique of sneak popping, which when done right, helps to avoid any extra agro other than the nm one wants pulled. Of course, eventually, the nm you pop is going to hit you. The point of sneak popping is to make sure that other mobs don't. You should be giving other agro mobs a wide berth, you should be at the furthest distance that the ??? will allow you to pop at, and you should be moving away from the spawn point as soon as you've clicked or traded to the ???. Ideally, another player should be getting the mob off you ASAP and if things go well, you should have a clean pull. If you walk up to a ??? all willy-nilly, with a mob or mobs clustering about, trade your item, and just stand there.... you deserve get your ass handed to you.

And why not expect a new player to try to sneak pop if that's what's called for and they are the only person that can pop the nm? The timing can be tricky but the concept isn't exactly rocket surgery. It may also be something they have to do again someday. No time to learn like the present as they say.

And it's moot anyway. They changed the ??? spawn location in Fei'Yin. It's at g-8, where Miser Murphy spawns (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Pieuje%27s_Decision). I found this out when I was running through Fei'Yin to help a low-level friend do mission 5-1. I wanted to scope out the terrain to see how a whm could do this fight but the ??? was not in the room with the new IT ghosts.

What was that you were saying about earlier in this thread about doing research before spouting off? While SE might have thrown in a ninja fix to the ???s (and I can't really speak for other af quests but YOU specifically were taking about whm) it's more likely that the concern about the af nms being screwed over by the new monster placement was just more "OMG-The-Sky-Is-Falling" freak-out rhetoric the FFXI community, and especially this forum, has come to be known for.

I still stand by an earlier comment that the monster placement was well advertised before the update and players should have expected the possibility of new agro mobs in the zones listed. When i went out and explored, I kept S/I up so I wouldn't get a surprise asskicking. Is carrying meds or casting spells really so difficult for the majority of the player base?

[Zyeriis]

I was specifically talking about the technique of sneak popping, which when done right, helps to avoid any extra agro other than the nm one wants pulled. Of course, eventually, the nm you pop is going to hit you. The point of sneak popping is to make sure that other mobs don't. You should be giving other agro mobs a wide berth, you should be at the furthest distance that the ??? will allow you to pop at, and you should be moving away from the spawn point as soon as you've clicked or traded to the ???. Ideally, another player should be getting the mob off you ASAP and if things go well, you should have a clean pull. If you walk up to a ??? all willy-nilly, with a mob or mobs clustering about, trade your item, and just stand there.... you deserve get your ass handed to you.
Thanks for the lesson that was blatantly obvious and completely missed the point (again). Not repeating myself on the matter.


And why not expect a new player to try to sneak pop if that's what's called for and they are the only person that can pop the nm? The timing can be tricky but the concept isn't exactly rocket surgery. It may also be something they have to do again someday. No time to learn like the present as they say.
Ah yes, because they need to get one-shot now if they screw it up. Is it hard or is it easy? If it's hard, then no, I don't expect them to know how to do it. If it's easy, then no, they shouldn't have to get one-shotted and I should be able to save them. Level 50 quests should not involve level 100 monsters.



And it's moot anyway. They changed the ??? spawn location in Fei'Yin. It's at g-8, where Miser Murphy spawns (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Pieuje%27s_Decision). I found this out when I was running through Fei'Yin to help a low-level friend do mission 5-1. I wanted to scope out the terrain to see how a whm could do this fight but the ??? was not in the room with the new IT ghosts.

What was that you were saying about earlier in this thread about doing research before spouting off? While SE might have thrown in a ninja fix to the ???s (and I can't really speak for other af quests but YOU specifically were taking about whm) it's more likely that the concern about the af nms being screwed over by the new monster placement was just more "OMG-The-Sky-Is-Falling" freak-out rhetoric the FFXI community, and especially this forum, has come to be known for.
Moot = now. Not when I made the post, depicting what I had actually gone and seen. The ??? was still amongst the level 100+ mobs. So, please, feel free to falsely claim that I hadn't done my research because my entire post wasn't based upon personal experience at the time (I wonder why I was SPECIFICALLY talking about whm?). Ah, the "you suck because I said so" rhetoric of the morons who don't actually go out and check what they're talking about before their first post trying to discredit some one else's skill, that was completely irrelevant to the point (because I wasn't the one who needed to pop the NM).



I still stand by an earlier comment that the monster placement was well advertised before the update and players should have expected the possibility of new agro mobs in the zones listed. When i went out and explored, I kept S/I up so I wouldn't get a surprise asskicking. Is carrying meds or casting spells really so difficult for the majority of the player base?
Yeah, kthx, we know, we foresaw this problem, posted about it, and nothing was done until at least a week or more post-update. Are non-lolworthy questions and intelligent sentences that don't equate to "i have no basis for this, but you suck and don't use S/I to walk around, which is irrelevant to NM popping but I'll say it anyway to try to insult you passively and falsely" really so difficult to form?

/S&G post #2.

[Aldersyde]

Moot = now. Not when I made the post, depicting what I had actually gone and seen. The ??? was still amongst the level 100+ mobs. So, please, feel free to falsely claim that I hadn't done my research because my entire post wasn't based upon personal experience at the time (I wonder why I was SPECIFICALLY talking about whm?). Ah, the "you suck because I said so" rhetoric of the morons who don't actually go out and check what they're talking about before their first post trying to discredit some one else's skill, that was completely irrelevant to the point (because I wasn't the one who needed to pop the NM).

Moot=always. Your "personal experience" is in direct conflict with person who edited the wiki to say the ??? had been moved to the large central room at g/h-8 as of May 10, 2011. Go check the history of the page's edits. You're delusional or a liar.

And ya, level 50 quests shouldn't involve level 100 mobs. Sometimes the game gets screwed up and you just have and the game is made harder because of it. The two choices you have is to find a way to do it under the new circumstances or be a quitter then run here to complain about it. I've done whm af and the ??? was previously towards the opening to the hallway (where you would have fought it so the other shadows in the room didn't link to it). It could have been easily sneak pulled with some bloody patience and a someone who had the wherewithal to actually pull it off the popper.