Dual weild

[Shinsonja]

hurry up and give thf dual weild to the same lvl as dnc already, while your at it add subtle blow again same lvl.

[Alaik]

Or just tell us the reasons you believe this is imbalanced. I'll be fine with either.

[Babygyrl]

i think that its more imbalanced that dnc has it over thf.. dnc can heal them selves.. debuff and etc.. they dont need the subtle blow.. thfs need it bad! and dnc evasion is practically on par with thf with the abilities.. we deserve the subtle blow and duel weld over dncs :x we had been waiting way longer then dancer too..

[Myew]

Even a BLU has more native DW than a Thief. Someone at SE really has a love affair going with DNC and THF seems to have been a forgotten relic.

[Pesh]

We still outdamage Dancers. ;)

[Kalima]

From someone who only plays both DNC and THF equally I must say that the two jobs are pretty balanced as they are. Yes THF only has DW2 (DW3 with /nin) but triple attack rate (especially with gear/atmas) pushes THF forward in the TP gain department. Not to mention higher dagger skill and much MUCH higher evasion (my DNC can't even come close unless I throw on a bunch of gear and I'm STILL behind THF's eva), and not to mention that sexy AF3+2 that can add a ton of damage to Triple attack procs. So yeah, THF still has some really good advantages over DNC as it stands now. The reason that DNC needs more DW is because it HAS to cure, and use steps, and all that other stuff which of course slows down damage output and so on.

I do agree with one point though...THF seriously needs some subtle blow....

[Rambus]

I want to know why they gave DW IV to DNC and not to thf, then left thf with DWI

hey guyz but you can still get DW III on /nin -.-

That would be my argument on giving DW IV to thf, if you are going to give a job a trait, the trait progression needs to outdo anything that is granted off a sub. If you are not going to do that, it is a waste of time to grant such a trait.

[Kalima]

Most likely its because of using THF as a subjob. I remember a while back SE saying in an interview that they wanted people to experiment with diff subjobs and implied that they didn't want THF to be one of them (mostly due to 2handers using it for SAWS). That coupled with the DNC job being designed to be used primarily as a SJ first is why it has DW tiers at earlier levels.

Because of this, I totally see THF getting DW 3 and 4 the next 2 level increases since it was given DW 1 and 2 on the last 2. Sucks that we have to wait that long, but in the end it will work out.

[Renesmay]

Kalima, I am the same as you are I Love my THF and simply Adore my Dancer! I play them both equally. My Thf can deal more dmg in abyssea but dnc last alot longer. I am just happy Thf finally has the DW ability instead of having to stick with /nin or /dnc 24/7 for the ability. When i first noticed it i went /sam and got two of my friends killed with the tp dmg output i was doing with TA and SATA. It woudl def be nice for thf to have moer SB bc frankly my thf with capped haste + is wicked

[Frost]

We still outdamage Dancers. ;)

Sadly, no. Having leveled both, I can say my Dnc easily out DD's my thief, and can cure itself to boot. Both jobs have near perfect gear. Dnc just overwhelms my thief in so many ways, but never the one way that matters: Treasure Hunter.

Not Trolling, not picking a fight, I love both jobs, typically play Thief more.

Edit: Saw the post further down. I find my Dnc to be more evasive than thief personally, they get a potent native Evasion bonus too, and a lot of their standard gear has evasion on it, where thief tends to stray from Evasion in lieu of more attack rate. Iirc the last time I did the numbers I think my thief only had something like 15 more evasion than my Dnc.

[Myew]

Not wanting to go too far off topic, but between DNC and THF, a DNC easily either out-performs or matches a THF in every category except Treasure Hunter.

THF has a natrual advantage in Eva as pointed out, but you have to remember that you can only have so much evasion. A mob will never have less than a 20% chance to hit you. A DNC doesn't have to out-do a THF's Eva, they just have to get it to that point - which they can easily.

They out-damage a thief. You have to match like with like. Saying stuff like "their triple attack is even better with atma!" is facetious. A DNC can load the same Atmas. So a THF only has a +10% triple with max merit, which equates to 20 extra swings per 100. This is roughly equal to haste samba's collective bonus. Also, the AF+2 armor's triple bonus activation with max armor on is a 5% chance of a 10% chance (up to 30% if you stack atmas and gear). Versus the DNC AF+2 bonus which is at best a 10% chance of a 100% chance. (Since a DNC will always have a samba activated). That bonus ends up being much larger than the one THF gets.

Add on top of this that a DNC can natively heal better than even a SCH or RDM, stun and employ dmg reduction, there isn't even a contest between the two. All THF gets is TH and with the latest update, we have shown exactly how worthless large TH bonuses are.

[Kalima]

Edit: Saw the post further down. I find my Dnc to be more evasive than thief personally, they get a potent native Evasion bonus too, and a lot of their standard gear has evasion on it, where thief tends to stray from Evasion in lieu of more attack rate. Iirc the last time I did the numbers I think my thief only had something like 15 more evasion than my Dnc.

THF has 20 more skill and 25 more straight eva over DNC not including merits/CP etc. I don't know about you, but when I solo an NM on DNC then solo it on THF I just notice a huge difference in evade rate.

As far as damage goes, well all things considered DNC really can pump out some good numbers. With the right buffs I can ride my presto/step/RF timers and throw out a solo darkness SC every 30 secs or so. But at the same time would an optimal DNC be able to outparse say a pimped out mandau or twashtar THF? I honestly couldn't say.

But at the same time, it's absurd to think about such things lol...aside from a few tweaks here and there I'm pretty happy with both jobs.

[Pesh]

Sadly, no. Having leveled both, I can say my Dnc easily out DD's my thief, and can cure itself to boot. Both jobs have near perfect gear. Dnc just overwhelms my thief in so many ways, but never the one way that matters: Treasure Hunter.

I have yet to see a DNC match my THF in Abyssea. Between VV/RR/Apoc, low delay daggers, higher native skill, I simply trounce any DNC who has ever gone up against me.

We may swing a tiny bit slower (DW3 vs DW4), but we hit harder per swing (due to a higher native skill), we Triple Attack 1/3 of the time, and our AF3+2 is built to augment our damage. I'm sorry, but in a damage over time race, again I've yet to meet a DNC that isn't more than just a prancing wannabe THF.

[Kasandaro]

But at the same time would an optimal DNC be able to outparse say a pimped out mandau or twashtar THF?

For the record, wouldn't "optimal DNC" be a "Twashtar DNC"? And other than Homam and the AF3 sets, what optimal gear does THF90 get that DNC90 doesn't?

---


I have yet to see a DNC match my THF in Abyssea. Between VV/RR/Apoc, low delay daggers, higher native skill, I simply trounce any DNC who has ever gone up against me.

I've parsed both, with the gear I have, and if I'm not tanking on thf or healing on dnc, they're about the same, over time.


We may swing a tiny bit slower (DW3 vs DW4), but we hit harder per swing (due to a higher native skill)

Not notably, especially with what Atma does to everyone's numbers - and I've parsed it using the same daggers and atma.


we Triple Attack 1/3 of the time

True, DNC gets 15% less Triple Attack than what THF gets from AF3 and job traits. But DNC can pop up a lot of Double Attack.


and our AF3+2 is built to augment our damage.

DNC's AF3+2 is also built to augment our damage - namely, it occasionally doubles the damage of a hit when a samba is up. Which, unless they're Fan Dancing, is continual for a DNC.

teal deer? I'd be really surprised, due to the game-bending effect of atma and due to the sheer amount of common gear, if THF was actually that far ahead of DNC on damage. Is it a problem? For DNC, no. For THF? Kinda, yeah.

[noodles355]

Thief should have had native subtle blow a very long time ago. It's rediculous that it never got it.

Who cares if Dnc or Thf is better than the other? You should use this forum to talk about thief's strengths and weaknesses. You don't need to compare it to Dancer to do that. By all means compare their trait differences, but there's no point arguing about which is the stronger DD.

[Amoklauf]

I'm not surprised at all at how this thread became about DNC vs THF. DNC started trouncing on part of THF's territory/playstyle pretty early on after it was introduced.

THF's evasion made it pretty unique and a decent solo'er. DNC totally destroyed that aspect of THF overnight (in the sense that it was much better at it). NIN didn't suffer as much, since it could sub DNC with little sacrifice. I just hope that THF's durability does get a boost so that a THF subbing DNC would capable of similar things as DNC mains are now. Even better if THF's could maintain the safety of NIN sub and have unique ways of recovering and avoiding damage.

An obvious addition:
Perfect Evasion or Perfect Parry (ala Perfect Counter)

Perhaps not as obvious, but a personal favorite:
Better Bloody Bolts. I always felt like THF Marksmanship was given up on. It hasn't had new bolts in ages. Bloody bolts recover pathetic amounts of HP compared to huge HP pools we've gotten used to since Abyssea. The amount afaik is modded by VIT, which is a bit odd and not something you'd really want to stack up on over R.acc. Something in the range of 250 HP per shot would seem fair. The current total delays are already comparable to Curing Waltz3.

[noodles355]

250HP recovery per shot is rediculous and not comparable to a Waltz at all. Waltz costs 50% TP to use. That's about 5 attack rounds depending in your Dual Wield reduction and Store TP. That'll probably take around 15 seconds if you have a good haste setup and dont stop to cast any spells or use any JAs in the mean time. IT also then uses up that 50% TP.

A thief uses an xbow with either 216 delay (Ziska's) or something similar up to 288 delay. In that same time frame, a thief with said Xbow can make at least two shots. That would recover 500HP for free. Not only that, it would also make you do over 500 damage to the mob in two shots. It would also give you TP. That is completely overpowered.

[Arcon]

250 HP wouldn't really be overpowered imo, considering it slows your damage down a lot. In the time it takes you to get two shots off (including the delay while aiming and after the shot) you would do a lot more damage with melee swings. You could prolly do 4 rounds in that time, 6~8 probably depending on your magical haste. And considering you can do over 1k damage in a single round, it's simply a trade off between damage and health. And 250 HP per shot still doesn't mean much for mobs that THF has trouble tanking regardless. Namely AoE damage mobs. Not to mention you can't cast shadows while aiming, again including a 1~2s, which just means taking a risk of taking even more damage, something that DNC hasn't, cause JAs are instant.

THF vs. DNC is a sad argument imo. Because, as it is right now, DNC has an edge, which, added to their overall versatility, makes THF kinda seem like DNC-1, abused only for TH. Not saying it's a bad job, it still performs very well for its tasks (and it does in fact a lot higher evasion, so much that it's capped on almost all NMs, without needing specific gear or Atma). It's just hard not to be jealous at all the buffs DNC has been getting, while THF seems to have pulled the short straw.

Which is why I suggested that they do something about Steal/Despoil and Mug, make THF more useful in other areas, areas it was intended for originally.

On the topic.. THF should have always had the Dual Wield ability, as does WAR imo. Not even for any gameplay reasons, just cause it seems appropriate.. THF and WAR both sound like classes that should be allowed to carry two weapons. WAR possibly rather low tier, THF rather high. That's just my opinion though, would have always liked that.

[Claquesous]

I've still never been able to wrap my head around the logic of a dancer wielding one weapon, let alone two.

[thefinalrune]

As a THF my issue with our native dual wield was never so much in comparison to DNC as much as it was just insulting to start with. The high level, the odd level number and the limited tier of the whole thing just screams that it was an after thought tacked on trait instead of something thought out and truly designed for THF. I'd have rather we received a more useful trait than a gimp dual wield.

[Sagrav]

DNC and THF have their own advantages... DNC is good soloing when THF cant really (due to lack of heals and eating up large spells like -GAs). Don't add bolts, cause they are time consuming, and you cant even drain some mobs.

But what i can tell you is just add a healer to a THF and it will be no way it can be beaten. So far in Abyssea, only a WAR and a NIN which i know can out-damage me, and both using uber equipment (including full AF+2 and Trail weapons @ 85).

My layout (atma/equip/merits) allows me to do a WS every 15-20 secs; with Evi ranging from 1k-4k depending on the mob, and i dont have full AF+2 yet neither Twasthar.

How can you beat that??? i doubt Dancer can...

As of native Dual Wield... /NIN is the best friend of a thief... shadows are life savers, so id say its fine like right now.

But really, SE needs to drop some Subtle Blow into THFs... its ourageous the way i feed TP to mobs >.<

[Crazze]

Between VV/RR/Apoc.

Errr keep using RR no doubt and Apoc has it's merits as well but if going for straight DD set up idk if I would use it. But for sure replace VV with either Dark Depths or Gnarled Horn. With either of those you should be able to increase critical hit rate up to about 80%. And depending on the situation I would exchange Apoc (most likely if tanking), VV (very nice DD atma of course) and dread (If TH is your main concern). Just my suggestion but feel free to ignore me.

Now for getting back on topic and staying out of this stupid DNC vs THF debate that has no place in this thread... Getting some native subtle blow on THF would be absolutely amazing and something SE should really consider giving us. But only if they give us subtle blow IV or higher other wise it is just a wasted and pointless trait.

[Frost]

Why is there so much call for subtle blow? With the way Agi reduces monster TP gain now, I really don't see a reason to ask for it.

In related logic: giving thief "just any ol' dual wield" does one thing that's more valuable than I could ever begin to explain, when I change jobs to say, blm sub to warp and back to nin, I dont' have to make it all the way out to the field and start fighting before I realize I forgot to put on my offhand... Would I have liked that luxury earlier? sure.

Personally I am at the point where any job that natively/typically(Twilight Belt jobs) uses 1-handed weapons should get native Dual Wield, and have it progress competitively to align with the bonuses the 2-handed jobs now possess.

[Yarly]

Oh look, another QQ thread.

[Frost]

Oh look, another QQ thread.

Oh look, another person upping their post count by contributing absolutely nothing...

[Gredival]

Thief gets: Triple Attack (10%), Dual Wield I, Sneak Attack, Trick Attack, 13 Dagger Skill, Feint, Conspirator

Dancer gets: Saber Dance, Dual Wield IV, Haste Samba

Generally in this matchup I would say that Thief comes out ahead, especially if the Dancer is attending other duties besides offense.

However this match up is closer than it should be. Dancer is not supposed to be a solely offensive job, and given that I think it's damage output shouldn't be nearly as close to Thief's as it is. When Dancer was first introduced it was pretty well balanced. However it was given numerous damage related buffs and what has made so close to Thief is their innate level of DW they were given. Dancer having native DW IV gives them the ability to use /WAR and not give up any delay reduction. Thief having only DWI restricts them to staying /NIN.

I think Thief should get DW IV, or the two jobs should both get DW III. There should be a decent offensive difference between the two jobs and the best way to accomplish this would be to equalize Dual Wield and keep Thief's other offensive abilities intact to provide that edge.

Alternatives to adjusting Dual Wield include adjusting Sneak Attack and Trick Attack timers to be significantly lower (30~ seconds vs. 60). At the haste levels the game is played at now their timers are far too high. Right now the skill difference is insignificant in the majority of situations. Even against more evasive mobs I think we need to be at natural A+ with Dancer staying at natural B+ before skill really becomes a deciding factor.

[Arcon]

Oh look, another person upping their post count by contributing absolutely nothing...

This.

Also, THF can solo quite well actually, depending on the mob of course. AoE heavy mobs will kill you fast, however all others are very easily soloable. I rarely get hit at all, and the occasional AoE can be either cured with temp items, or even better get one Regen Atma (Mounted Champion for highest Regen value or Vicissitude for some extra MDB). That way THF can easily solo many NMs in Abyssea.

Also, just one Regen Atma allows a THF to constantly kill regular mobs without shadows. I was able to solo Dom Ops to the point where I would get TEs like crazy, with never capping pearl/azure before the fight, instead just getting pearl from kills and azure from chests. THF's solo capabilities are really great with the right setup, sure you have to sacrifice some damage with a Regen Atma, but still they are able to dish out quite a bit.

[Kalima]

Thief having only DWI restricts them to staying /NIN.

Not to nitpick but it keeps coming up in this thread...you guys do know that THF got DW2 in last level increase right?

Of course still have to sub /nin and not as good as DNC's DW4...but following the trend we probably will see DW4 by 99...

[Frost]

God I been fighting to urge to continue the Dnc vs. Thief thing but it IS relevant.. And I apologize in advance for continuing this line of conversation. With that shaky apology in hand I continue:

Two words: Wild Flourish...

Not only do Dancers get the awesome ability to skillchain with themselves, they get the added boon of a native skillchain bonus to boot. In Abyssea anyways, I toss out a Evisceration for 2,600-ish that's followed by a transfixtion for 1,700... every single minute.

And the only reason I even thought Dnc worth mentioning in the first place is I can solo shit on my dancer that I just, for the life of me cannot kill on my thief. And ironically, it's not because of the cures, as I dont' tend to use them, as they are just not needed. One reason is Fan Dance mitigating something on the order of 90% of the damage of an attack, this is great for attacks that remove shadows, or go through shadows. So an attack like say, Iktomi's Sickle Slash that goes through shadows, where my thief might take a 1k+ swipe to the face, my dancer laughs off a 40 or so damage bonk to the noggin.

Take those points and add the combined abilities to lower crit defense, defense, evasion, etc, it's really not hard to start to piece together why I had originally said what I said.

It's by no means a slight on the thief job whatsoever. As I prefer thief. The differences are null in the presence of any kind of healer. Save for the main difference that being I'M GOING TO GIT ME SUM LEWTZ! Which in the end is why Thief > Dnc.

If you get a Thief AND a Dancer... well then, you're just livin in fat city, as the benefits dancer brings to the tabel makes the thief shine more too, and vice versa. TH, Haste sambas, cure, Feint, SA, TA, fully backed by shadows, and all steps... It's 500% win.

[FrankReynolds]

if they gave us dual wield IV, we would still have to sub ninja. they should give thief an ability on a timer that allows us to parry the next 3-4 attacks, maybe 2 traits. so that we can sub something else.

[Luces]

Correction.



Thief gets: Triple Attack (20%)**, Dual Wield II*, Sneak Attack, Trick Attack, 13 Dagger Skill, Feint, Conspirator

**empy +2 head and triplus dagger are both very easy to get you should be sporting at least 13-17% triple attack, 20% comes from epeen ring added.



Dancer gets: Saber Dance, Dual Wield IV, Haste Samba, Fan dance, No Foot Rise, the move that allows them to get near 100%tp back when merited so they can self skill chain, Presto(sp?).


bolded for important things left off. Dnc also get a ridiculous amount of access to large amounts of stp along with their haste gear where as stp gear thf would/could wear would be just hurtful.

[Strife]

What could be done to give THF some more durability is to give THF an ability similar to the aura steal trait that steals a mobs HP. This would have to be on a separate & lower timer than steal/despoil to be useful but it would solve the problem of unbalancing bolts.

SE definitely needs to give THF subtle blow but please don’t start us on tier 1 at level 91+ that'd be useless.

Regarding DW I'd say SE is just thinking of how jobs will be balanced at level 99 when THF should -I hope- have natively higher DW than we'd get from any sub, sucks we have to wait & be stuck /NIN until then tough.

The difference in tiers THF gets vs DNC will therefore probably narrow at 99 & is probably something SE is using to lift DNC DD up so it stays relevant against other jobs such as THF. Considering all the other buff they get and are likely to get in the future I think it's unnecessary as most if not all the composite jobs as I like to think of them such as DNC, PUP, SCH etc. that have abilities over a range of other jobs territories are already powerful enough though I'm probably just QQ'n because they're taking a little of the shine off my THF, MNK & BLM lol.

[katori]

i know every has different set up for their thf's. but my thf out dmg's most dd's easy. dont get my wrong dnc/nin is a beast but i solo same mobs without even getting hit on thf. and kill them faster. you also get DW on boomerang which helps. i have soloed almost all my seals on thf and even killed vnm on thf solo. on regular mobs without ws gear i easy 3k on them.

if they made the subtle blow ability timer like 30 secs it would be nice.

[Karbuncle]

if THF got DWIV, They would still be confined to /NIN for Tanking, But for the DD aspect, They could open their Possibilities. Even Dual Wield 3 Would erase the need (in terms of Damage, not survivability) of /NIN.

I also like the idea of a "Perfect Parry" Ability, similar to Perfect Counter, That would allow THF's to Parry the next 1-2 Attacks. Adds Survivability, While lacking in productive DD category, It would be welcomed in my eyes.

And While i know THF is a beastly DD, I can still admit we fall behind when compared to a competently geared "main" DD, Like a WAR, or a DRG (</3 You Drakesbane). We sure dish out a Frick-ton of DPS as well as feed minimal TP, and if we lose out to those DD, Its never by much, but we're far from the top ;o.

What i like most about my THF is the fact i can low-man with my friends so easily, I'll Tank, DD, and Heck, Stick TH6+ on it while I'm at it. I really like what THF has become because of Abyssea =.=a

[Arcon]

if THF got DWIV, They would still be confined to /NIN for Tanking, But for the DD aspect, They could open their Possibilities. Even Dual Wield 3 Would erase the need (in terms of Damage, not survivability) of /NIN.

Depends on the mob really. Because I'm a cheapskate, and shihei price is skyrocketing, I tried to see how good I'd do without shadows and I found, extremely well. There's only a few mobs with devastating moves/attacks that are worth using shihei on, which means even for most tanking needs /WAR would do just fine. Sure, occasionally would still need to /NIN it up, but I'd be ok with that.


I also like the idea of a "Perfect Parry" Ability, similar to Perfect Counter, That would allow THF's to Parry the next 1-2 Attacks. Adds Survivability, While lacking in productive DD category, It would be welcomed in my eyes.

Yeah, that would be a great addition, especially if those parries would allow skillups.

[Atomic_Skull]

I'd rather have something like Martial Arts or Hasso for daggers than native DW because THF is almost always going to need to sub NIN anyway.

That, and SA should be changed back to how it originally worked (you only needed to be out of sight of the mob). TA and SA timers also need to be cut in half for main job THF.

If DNC gets Evasion Bonus and our exclusive dagger WS then THF should at least have Accuracy Bonus.

[Gnoir]

I agree with thf getting DW and subtle blow, thf has deserved atleast one for a long time.

[LeaderofAtlantis]

Not even thinking about some of the gear options we have now, THF/WAR, with Dual Wield 3, would have insane TP gain. Double Attack (10% activation) + Triple Attack (5% base or up to 10% with merits) + DW3 (Delay -25%) is starting to get crazy enough. Add in say Twilight Knife + Triplus Dagger, Raider's Bonnet +2, Raider's Belt, Assassin's Poulaines, Epona's Ring, Brutal Earring, Raider's Earring, Homam Corazza (I'm ignoring Haste gear mostly for simplicity off the top of my head here) and now you're up to Quad. Attack (3%) + Triple Attack (23% - Only theoretical here as I can't test this since I'm missing several pieces of this gear set) + Double Attack (13%) and with Raider's Boomerang you're up to -28% delay with DW3. Now since I've heard there's a Triple Attack cap (seen 10% and 15%, but I'm not anal enough to try to test and measure which or if it's true or not), but caps don't necessarily happen inside Abyssea with Atma, I'm going to assume they still felt all of this would be a bit too much.

I think there's also a mantle with Double Attack +2% or something we can equip, but it's Rare/EX and I can't even remember the name at the moment, but even if there is a Triple Attack cap that we can hit, it's still kind of nuts.

[Eeek]

I started FFXI as a THF, and it was my first 75. It's been my favorite job for years. It hurts to admit this, but I don't use it anymore unless I, or my group, needs TH.

I have both THF and DNC geared solidly, and my DNC just embarrasses THF. DNC is extremely sturdy in solo and group situations. THF needs support for cures/haste and party members for SA/TA in order to really deal damage. DNC doesn't rely on positional JAs to deal damage, and DNC needs far less support to thrive: Saber Dance, Haste Samba, and self-cures come to mind. Unless THF wants to swing as slowly as a DRK, they need outside sources of haste (I'm not kidding...THF attacks so slowly in comparison to DNC). DNC's AF3+2 set bonus is better, and DNC can generate tons of TP through JAs for more weaponskills and self-skillchains.

What does THF really have aside from TH? Higher dagger skill and evasion skill? Accuracy/Attack is easy remedied through food, and let me know if SE removes evasion Kilas from the game. THF does make better use of Twashtar, and aside from TH, I can't think of much more that they have going for them.

It's clear that SE has never really known what to do with THF. I'd like to play it more, but unless TH is needed, DNC is a stronger job.

[RaenRyong]

DNC due to its accuracy bonus traits actually has more acc than THF with dagger <_>

And yeah, SE is utterly clueless when it comes to THF. Stick everything they should've got on DNC and then some.

[Arcon]

Mostly hat's true, and overall DNC would probably out-damage an equally geared THF. However, THF doesn't need SA/TA to deal good damage, I even dare to say in some situations they may not be worth using (other than to push the TH value).

With best TP gear, DNC gets ~20% faster attack speed than THF and reaches 100% TP about ~15% faster (assuming equal delay daggers, THF usually get a bit faster daggers, but DNC still wins in overall attacks/time).

And considering how self-sustaining DNC is, and durable, compared to THF, I really hope SE looks into it a bit more and adjusts it somehow, either upgrade THF or downgrade DNC. The only thing THF has going for it in the overall DD-tanking department is its native evasion, which does show a lot compared to DNC (30 difference, even if DNC has full Closed Position merits, up to 45 difference otherwise), which makes us more viable DDs when survival is a problem. Where DNC has to keeps casting shadows all the time or keep curing itself with its TP, THF doesn't even get hit. Also, THF has a few better evasion pieces than DNC, more than DNC has over THF (I'm looking at you, Charis Tights +2), although that's not too much of a difference, since only a few pieces can be worn over DNC to maintain high DD capabilities.

This allows some interesting solo strategies on certain mobs, especially in Abyssea. With some temporary meds THF can take down unexpectedly many NMs solo, only AoE happy mobs are a problem. Yet it still doesn't beat a DNC for overall DD-tanking. We still have our uses, but if there's an equally skilled DNC around, they will usually get the job done easier. Thankfully we have TH.

[Karbuncle]

Mostly hat's true, and overall DNC would probably out-damage an equally geared THF. However, THF doesn't need SA/TA to deal good damage, I even dare to say in some situations they may not be worth using (other than to push the TH value).

With best TP gear, DNC gets ~20% faster attack speed than THF and reaches 100% TP about ~15% faster (assuming equal delay daggers, THF usually get a bit faster daggers, but DNC still wins in overall attacks/time).

And considering how self-sustaining DNC is, and durable, compared to THF, I really hope SE looks into it a bit more and adjusts it somehow, either upgrade THF or downgrade DNC. The only thing THF has going for it in the overall DD-tanking department is its native evasion, which does show a lot compared to DNC (30 difference, even if DNC has full Closed Position merits, up to 45 difference otherwise), which makes us more viable DDs when survival is a problem. Where DNC has to keeps casting shadows all the time or keep curing itself with its TP, THF doesn't even get hit. Also, THF has a few better evasion pieces than DNC, more than DNC has over THF (I'm looking at you, Charis Tights +2), although that's not too much of a difference, since only a few pieces can be worn over DNC to maintain high DD capabilities.

This allows some interesting solo strategies on certain mobs, especially in Abyssea. With some temporary meds THF can take down unexpectedly many NMs solo, only AoE happy mobs are a problem. Yet it still doesn't beat a DNC for overall DD-tanking. We still have our uses, but if there's an equally skilled DNC around, they will usually get the job done easier. Thankfully we have TH.

THF can solo an amazing number of mobs. Just the other day i had a dream i Solo'd AV to about 25%, Then i kited it cause i got hit with Aeroga II (lol?) and only had 108 HP, and for some reason my Utsusemi: Ni timer was @ 24minutes:00seconds.

I love how absolutely insane dreams are.


AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAnyway. On topic.

More so as an Elaboration, I heard an idea i liked, give THF a "Martial Arts" of Daggers. Would be a good start. And don't give it to DNC. Fk DNC.

I think something that needs to be done for THF too is access to more Job Abilities that actually work on the THF(While he tanks)! most of our new Job Abilities only effect non-tanks, or other party members (Accomp, Collab, Conspir). I always felt THF should have gotten Impetus personally... But I can't fret on that.

Why not give THF something in the lines of Restraint? Except, For each hit instead of increasing your WS Damage, Each hit would increase the Damage of SA or TA? A good Formula would be for each hit landed, Increases the DEX or AGI mod by an additional 0.5%, to a Maximum of 50%, so instead of adding 100% of your DEX to dmg, it would add 150%, same with TA.

Could also give THF Stances. I would love to see THF stances. One could really help their DD/Tank aspect, one could really help their Support/Hate-control Aspect. For instance, On stance could increase DD stats, and Lower SA recast to 30 seconds. While the other could increase...something I dunno, Ranged Accuracy/Attack? and lower Recast timers for Coll/Accomplice, and TA.

I'm just spitballing :\, I love THF and its really good as it is, Doesn't mean i wouldn't like to see new things moving forward :)

[Laphine]

Cool ideas Karbuncle, sa/ta one would be awesome!

Something interesting i thought of some time ago was a "dagger mastery". This trait would enhance our equipped daggers base damage based on our dex. 1 extra base damage with every idk, 30 dex, woudn't be so bad! Ok, maybe it's broken lol, but i don't care~

sa2/ta2 is another thing i thought of too. There would have no position requirements, but with a lower dex/agi mod and shared timers with sa/ta. I think a lower damage is a good trade for being able to use sa/ta solo hehe.

[Karbuncle]

Cool ideas Karbuncle, sa/ta one would be awesome!

Something interesting i thought of some time ago was a "dagger mastery". This trait would enhance our equipped daggers base damage based on our dex. 1 extra base damage with every idk, 30 dex, woudn't be so bad! Ok, maybe it's broken lol, but i don't care~

sa2/ta2 is another thing i thought of too. There would have no position requirements, but with a lower dex/agi mod and shared timers with sa/ta. I think a lower damage is a good trade for being able to use sa/ta solo hehe.

That second thing could just be a Job Trait, I think that would be a good idea.

but only for sneak Attack, If SA is used outside of its Designated area, it gets a 50% Penalty to damage, But still gets a damage boost. I wouldn't mind that.

Being able to SA>WS from the front, or if you're in a party that can't keep a mob still, and still get benefits of SA would be wonderful.

----

As for the Dagger mastery, 30DEX = 1 Base Damage wouldn't be too broken. Even in Abyssea my DEX is only about 200 (only i say, lol), which is only +6 Base damage, not very significant but enough. I would prefer a Delay Reduction though :P

[Atomic_Skull]

sa2/ta2 is another thing i thought of too. There would have no position requirements, but with a lower dex/agi mod and shared timers with sa/ta. I think a lower damage is a good trade for being able to use sa/ta solo hehe.

Ugh, please no. First of people don't see DPS only damage spikes and that would invite even more "lol THF" from the FFXI community.

Secondly, changing SA and TA to work from any position is just dumbing down the game.

[Karbuncle]

Ugh, please no. First of people don't see DPS only damage spikes and that would invite even more "lol THF" from the FFXI community.

Secondly, changing SA and TA to work from any position is just dumbing down the game.

Perhaps, At least he's not suggesting being able to SATA form anywhere with no penalty, Which would be worse. I think Allowing SA (maybe not TA) from any direction with a Penalty to Damage wouldn't be a horrible adjustment. It'd make at least 1 of our Worthless-while-solo-or-lowman Abilities slightly less so.

Maybe make it to where, From the back it deals normal 100%, from the Sides it deals 75%, From the front 50%. It wouldn't be that bad if combined with my idea earlier with the "Restraint" for SA/TA. It wouldn't be like this from level 1, Maybe make it a level 80+ Job Trait. not base from level 1.

I just don't like to see that nearly all of THF's job abilities being pointless If you're Lowmanning as the tank (Usually THF + WHM, or THF/etc) or Soloing. I mean, in terms of NMs.

Sneak Attack - impossible to use in Battle when solo/lowman (outside of a few NMs you can land sleep bolts on or those that you can hide from)
Trick Attack - Impossible to use in above situation, (perhaps you could coerce the mage to come into range for a while, Depends on the mob you're fighting)
Mug - Worthless Inside Abyssea
Steal/Despoil - Worthless on NMs, as it doesn't work. Baring Aura Steal (So this one gets half pass)
Col/Acomp - Rarely useful, But This is Useful
Flee - Well... If you need to run
Hide - Doesn't work on NMs
Feint - Less than useful these days (Unless fighting Indrik or a select few other super-high evasive mobs)
Assassin's Charge - This ones useful Solo
Conspirator - Useless Lowman (described above THF + WHM situation)

So out of all of THF's job abilities (2hour not counted for), we only have at best 2-3 That are useful in low-man (THF + WHM) or Solo Situations. I don't think theres a single other job in the game that has more than 80% of its Job abilities completely pointless when Soloing or low manning.

I just think this 1 change to SA would not be as catastrophically nerfing/dumbing down the game enough to make it not worth a thought-out implementation, as long as it was perhaps a Job Trait at higher levels (like Assassin came at level 60, Giving us the SA JT at 80 wouldn't break the game in my opinion).

Also as a final thought, I haven't heard LolTHF in a very long time unless its from some ignorant moron who just came back from the game from 2005. Even then it was useful for TH. Today THF is one of the better DD/Tanks, especially in Abyssea. While it wont do the damage of WAR or MNK, it can tank as good and keep TH on the mob. THF has come a long way :\. You shouldn't value the opinions of people who see spike damage over DPS as the end-all means of Damage output :P, those of us good players realize the value of Thieves!


Edit: I mean, Adding a job Trait that allows SA to work from more angles with a small nerf in Damage wouldn't be any more "Easy mode" than Impetus, Empyrean+2 Sets, Ukon's Furry, Victory smite, Capped Counter-rates, 3k+ HP, obtainable 100% Critical hit Rate, obtainable capped Critical hit Damage+%, etc etc that is the game inside Abyssea.

Edit2: I'm never good with words, So i hope you can at least understand the basics of what I'm trying to say here ...

[Eeek]

@Arcon:

It's (obviously) true that THF has the edge over DNC in terms of evasion. I've soloed and low-manned many NMs on both THF and DNC, and to be honest, THF doesn't "feel" like it has the superior evasion while in the field (although I'm sure a parser could show the difference). In fact, I have not used my evasion set on either job in a long time. One or two AGI/Evasion Kilas +2 is all that's needed for evasion.

In my experience, THF's survivability doesn't even remotely compare to DNC. I can't eyeball any real difference between the evasion rates of my THF and DNC, but if shit hits the fan, I'd prefer to be on DNC.

DNC can self-cure in an instant for over 1000HP. DNC can activate Fan Dance for incredible damage reduction, and this is especially nice if problematic TP moves ignore shadows. DNC can provoke an NM when hate is too loose. Provoke will never hold hate, but that's not the important part. Provoke allows the DNC to melee/WS the mob a few times, and that will help stabilize the fight. DNC can act decisively to regain control of a bad situation.

In an 'Oh Shit!' situation, THF's abilities are just too passive for my tastes. Perfect Dodge is near useless in bad situations. It only benefits the THF, and against problematic NMs, it's usually not physical damage that causes the problems. Accomplice/Collaborator is very nice, but the THFhas only one chance to Accomplice/Collaborator someone in the party. If they choose....poorly, then hate is still loose. TA is largely worthless in an ohshit situation with an NM running loose. What else is left? Try to land SA, melee the NM, and pray you take hate before all the mages die. Or you can Flee and laugh as everyone dies but you (or make yourself useful by kiting).

@Karbuncle

Even though DNC's 'stances' are amazingly good, I really dislike the limitations imposed when using them. If THF ever got stances, I'm afraid they'd come with deal-breaker limitations.

If anything, I'd like to see SE embrace and really ramp up THF's potential for dealing critical hit damage. I like the hate control tools added over the past year or two, but a DD must deal decent damage to be worthwhile. SE also needs to stop pussyfooting around and giving critical hit enhancements to jobs stronger than THF in an attempt to be inclusive. No. Stop that. SE needs to go balls out in making THF the king of critical hit damage.

Now, I'm not calling for SE to break THF; just to make THF competitive because we will be leaving Abyssea some time soon. RR/GH/Apoc 'fixes' THF, and SE should take some of the benefits from these atmas (more DEX, more AGI, more critical hits, more critical hit bonus damage, another tier of the Triple Attack job trait) and roll them into THF on a permanent basis. That being said, I have no idea how to math out appropriate bonuses to strengthen THF, but at the same time, keep from breaking THF.

[Laphine]

That idea came as an innovative way to increase our dps. SA/TA is still a very big chunk of our dps and increasing their overall use is a mean to increase our damage. Usually when i'm tanking i hardly use them, and this is really bad because they are an essential part of our play style.

I really don't mind that we need a tank to effectively use them, but being so, they are incredibly underwhelming as they are now. The way i see it we have 2 options: either decrease their damage and remove position requirements or increase their damage in some considerable way and keep the position requirements. My initial thought on removing position requirements was purely based on increasing our performance. I didn't want it just to make our job easier (how hard it is to line up anyway?).

So yeah, even though it would be nice to get more dual wield (and i do see DW3 being very much real otw to 99), this isn't going to change much. On innovative ways SE did give us crit attack bonus, which is completely synergic to thf game play. But then they went out and gave it to war and dnc as well. Sense much? Even worse, they went and gave crit attack bonus to a number of jobs thru af/items that puts our 8% in dust. I'm looking at war again (af feet), drg (af legs), nin (kamome), all of these giving +10% crit damage. Idk if there are any others, but this is completely unballanced imo.

Increasing sa/ta damage is something i would be very fond of. But not by the trashy amounts we have from both our af hands. It's got to be something meaningful! Something that would make ppl say: "ok, thf damage sucks solo, but it completely crushes things with a partner!".

lol just another something i just thought about which could help achieve that: placing SA/TA mods inside the ws calculations. Dex and agi would act as ws mods because they would also be multiplied by fTP. This way we would become epeen masters of the game, and it makes sense with our game play (that being based on oportunity attacks). Imagine a TARudras/Mercy for 5k outside abyss lol, talk about hate control! This would be a big game play change in a way too, we would probably become the only job that has to actually sit on tp to deal damage. How cool is that?! haha

Talking about reality though, i think the best JA we could get is that based seigan+third eye/perfect counter concept, which was also an idea thrown on these forums somewhere. DW3 + /war + something like that would make us very competitive. Without such JA we wouldn't have as many oportunities to use /war and things would just stay like they are now.

Anyway, don't mind me SE, gogo 5k TARudras outside Abyssea, (Yes, please.)!!!!!!

[scaevola]

For the record, wouldn't "optimal DNC" be a "Twashtar DNC"?

Yes, but Twashtar is substantially better for THF than DNC thanks to how Rudra's is designed. So there's that.

Notably, DNC gets a pretty solid response in the Double Attack Parazonium +2, but this is all beside the point because THF's damage is "balanced" around the assumption you'll be able to use SA and TA, which are undeniably very strong; if you increase THF's native TP damage through DW to the point where it's competitive with all the other MNK clones out there when they can't use SA or TA, they'd be totally unreal when they could.

THF doesn't need an increase in raw damage so much as it needs abilities that would make the use of SA and TA viable in realistic, 2011 situations.

[Laphine]

Except these jobs with delay reduction traits receive more and more delay reduction that provide increased gain with each new tier. SA/TA can't beat that the way it currently works. Well, we did get a boost on this department, but the crit attack bonus trait we got is really underwhelming and it was just not enough.

First, everyone and their mom has at least some form on "enhance crit attack damage", so whatever balance it would provide was negated. Second, the trait walks over a decreasing return line. The more sources we have less productive it is to add new sources on top. And also the trait itself sucks. First tier being 5%, second being 3%, third will most likely be 3% too. Dual wield works with 5% and 10% delay reductions that are automatically better. No way around, 10% dual wield will always be better than 10% crit damage. If you had an imaginary crit hit rate of 100%, that 10% crit damage boost would provide an increase of 10% to damage if you had 0 crit damage bonus. DW coming from 0 is an 11% increase.

So yeah, it's no wonder we dream of having more and more DW.

I do believe increasing sa/ta performance, which are abilities that define our play style, would be best the approuch, and i can't say this enough, it really has got to be something significant. 8% increase to crit damage doesn't cut it.

An overhaul on ws damage that i proposed before would be incredible for one (lol i fell in love with this idea). 5k TARudras i was talking before was certainly an exaggeration, as the numbers would sit much lower, at around 3k. SARudras would stay around 3.5k. And all this with if we had capped attack. That's completely reasonable imo. The "big dds" can scratch those numbers with some luck, and we would still have a big restrictions of position and ja time, which means our average ws damage would be lower because we would still have to throw some unstacked ones inbetween.

[scaevola]

With the pattern of both DNC and NIN getting a new DW trait every twenty levels, it is extremely unlikely either will get another tier at 99. If anything, THF is more likely to get one than they are.

[Kaeoni]

I was hoping that this was just one big troll. But here we are ....

Any way you cut it, unless the dual wield is higher than what /nin currently gives us, it's worthless because it's our end all subjob. If you're subbing war i hope its for red procession, if you're subbing dnc i hope you're farming.
No other reason exists to not sub ninja on thief.

Thief is a multipurpose masterpiece which will always have a party slot, It can Evasion tank like a boss, It can deal massive amounts of Damage (Huge Triple attack values now strengthening our Offense, making it far more valuable than say saber dance as an example) It can manipulate hate freely, It has the 1 job ability that unlocks and successfully perpetuates what all MMO's are based around, Gear. We could only have TH and we would still be invited endgame, however we have the entire package, any thief worth their weight can tango with the vast majority of DD's out there. I know i can, and that's against a fully upgraded Verethragna friend of mine, all i'm using is an Evasion Kila+2 and a Triplus, in fact i tank more often then he does because my thief hits far faster then him, when you're at hate cap it just bounces to whoever hit it last which is usually just me. I know i don't deal as much damage as him but i cap hate closely behind him.

Dancer as a job is designed as a survivalist and it does it very very well, however Haste samba is no longer needed in an optimum setup because all forms of haste combined cap at 80%, and its healing ability in party is sub par due to it's limitation to waltz3 and basically healing waltz for itself. Why? It has unreasonable timers on all waltz's above 3, healing waltz included.
I'm a 90 dancer so It's not like i don't know what i'm talking about, If you need a healer you're better off getting a white mage or any mage who can sub white mage. A blm/whm offers more grellow opportunity a brd/whm has grellow haste marches elegy mambos. A Whm is just pure insanity in the curing aspect with light grellow. A smn/whm has additional DD, favors and the like. These all offer more utility. Dancer is just not a party specialized Job because it offers what exactly? It can't do anything a Thief can't already excel at in terms of a 2man or higher. Thief just does it better because when the NM dies it actually drops stuff. I'm not saying dnc is useless but they are not as highly valued in my book since haste samba dropped off the map. It's an excellent low man job but offers nothing but abilities that can be performed better by other jobs. Usurper is the only thing i like a dancer tanking because of its high impact Monk piercer ability and dnc gets fan dance for that. If any job needs to be fixed it's dancer's waltz timers.

The game has changed everyone, the days of an entire LS needed, or orchestrating an event are dead and gone.
Everything can be killed with 1-6 people regardless of your gear and if you have some type of relic or not.

Brought to you in part by: Atma, The god slayer.

[Laphine]

With the pattern of both DNC and NIN getting a new DW trait every twenty levels, it is extremely unlikely either will get another tier at 99. If anything, THF is more likely to get one than they are.

My point was not whether or not they will get new tiers of the trait otw to 99, but atually if they do get any new sources of DW, it will be a bigger boost to their dps compared to the small amounts of crit damage (or straight sa/ta damage) we get. If we didn't get anything in terms of DW we really wouldn't be able to keep up. So getting DW3 is indeed nice, even though it will hardly change anything because chances are we will use /nin most times. But at least it does opens up sub job options, since we wouldn't lose 10% DW by swapping /nin out.

The biggest balance issue is not really the trait itself, it's on the item selections we have. Both dnc and nin can get up to ~50% DW without many sacrifices. The most we get without sacrifices is 33%, maybe 36% by counting mirke, although that doesn't sit so well these days, since the best melee set combinations we have involve using the af3 body.

This 17% extra DW it's a an increase of 34% to melee dot tied with an also respectable increase to ws frequency (which means ws damage). SA/TA can increase both our melee dot and ws damage too, sadly, not this high. And more, if we use SA/TA to increase our ws damage, we lose dot. We don't lose overall damage, but the damage that would be used as melee damage is transfered to ws damage. It's like a balance, transfering weights them from one plate to the other.

But the biggest issue is that SA/TA it's a small fragment of our overall damage, and the more haste/dw/multi hits we get, the less it contributes. We can still only use the JAs once every minute, if you can do more damage inside that 1 minute then SA/TA becomes less prominent. So in a situation we already do high damage inside this window, increasing sa/ta damage by a small margin it's even less prominent in our final damage. Say SA/TA compromises with 20% to our damage, melee dot with 40%, ws with 40%. If we increase only the SA/TA part by, say, 20%. This is a final 4% increase to our total damage. If by adding haste/dw/multi hits SA/TA becomes only 10% of our total damage, that 20% boost represents a mere 2% increase to our damage.

I'm still in favor of ideas that fix SA/TA. The reason for that is because they go back to the very foundation of our job, which is a job that makes use of the perfect oportunity to strike, dealing massive damage. This is the reason i like rogue like classes, and the reason i fell in love with the job. But right now, we do lack the "massive" part...or maybe the "perfect"...we do lack something.

We have 2 jobs that make use of daggers to do their thing. Thf and dnc. Dnc is clearly a support role job. A support role that started getting too close to damage dealing role. What is thf? Certainly not a support job. A DD then? But why is it that thf is not on the same tier of the so called "big" ones? And more if dnc is support and thf is a DD, why is it that dnc can deal the same damage thf can? Makes no sense at all...

[Atomic_Skull]

Any way you cut it, unless the dual wield is higher than what /nin currently gives us, it's worthless because it's our end all subjob.

This is why I would have preferred a trait that reduces 1H weapon delay like Martial Arts does for H2H. Because it would still be useful while subbing NIN.

[scaevola]

We have 2 jobs that make use of daggers to do their thing. Thf and dnc. Dnc is clearly a support role job. A support role that started getting too close to damage dealing role. What is thf? Certainly not a support job. A DD then? But why is it that thf is not on the same tier of the so called "big" ones? And more if dnc is support and thf is a DD, why is it that dnc can deal the same damage thf can? Makes no sense at all...

Define "tier". I generally do a bit less damage in Abyssea on THF than I do on my DNC but both completely destroy my 5-hit Hagun 2.0 SAM. The best DDs are the ones who benefit the most from RR and other crit Atma; to say that THF isn't among these is totally insane.

[Laphine]

Same tier (rank) of damage capability. The thf damage is still far from those that are considered heavy dds. This mostly means thf vs mnk or war by today standards.But i didn't mean to say we should be able to deal the exact same damage of those jobs. Instead i think there should be some kind of parameter which would define game balance.

On my previous post i used utility as the parameter and compared both dnc and thf. And then i threw the question which could also be read as: if dnc has more utility what is that thf can add to the table to balance that? Certainly not damage since both jobs are pretty much tied. One could say thf has TH. This doesn't make the job better tho, only necessary. And this is why that ppl with resources have a TH mule. It's a mule because it simply doesn't add much else. Many jobs are better at that other things we can offer.

If we think of war vs mnk it can be quite reasonable. Both can deal crazy damage. War can deal more tho, but it trades damage for an inability to survive. Meanwhile, mnk is undestructible. Of course, given some exaggeration, but still, this makes sense for me.

What i'd like to see on thf is a better mastery of a trait (be it damage, survivability, hate management) that's not related to treasure hunter. Otherwise the job will always be relegated to mules because the player really doesn't need to be active to set th.

[Frost]

Idk, I seem to have no issue keeping up DD wise with most of the "Heavy Hitters". Granted, as I said earlier my Dnc seems to do even better. Personally I'd put thief in that "Top Tier" slot, but I have seen way too many pink thieves that I cannot. One apple spoiling the bunch is one thing, but jeez... There's a lot of rotten pink apples...

That being said... A "Dagger Mastery" of some sort would obviously be a nice addition. If anything just because we have NO alternative weapon. Most jobs have at least one other weapon only one tier down, but all of thief's are two tiers lower.

But what would it add? Accuracy? I don't have accuracy problems. Haste/Reduced delay like Martial arts? Maybe, but that's kinda the void Dual Wield fills (And if you ask me, any "One-Handed" weapon user should have this natively anyways)... Attack bonus? Possibly, I'd go so far to suggest a level of "Ignore Defense". Then there's things like Crit Attack Bonus, or Crit rate that could be added, etc.

What are thief's actual deficiencies though? What coudl the trait correct WITHOUT putting it so far ahead that balance would be upset. Especially when it comes to soloing.

[Laphine]

I for one believe our deficiency lies on sa/ta. Most changes proposed over here to these JAs would be quite significant too. Currently SA/TA adds a fixed amount of dps to our final dps, and if for example, this extra damage were to be more dynamic and able grow with our melee dps things will change quite a bit. Lol look at me talking about making JAs be affected by haste. And of course, if this was the case, it would just add more balance issues. Maybe only a select few JAs could get this bonus? haha I know dncs would also love their big waltzes with lower delays.

And i still love the idea of adding dex/agi bonus to the base ws damage lol. This would be an indirect increase to SA/TA damage because it would get multiplied by ftp. Say inside abyssea we solo a SA for 1250, and SARudras for 3500. With this little boost we would SARudras for a bit under 6k, not too shabby~.We would have no reason to stack SA with a multi hit ws too (due low ftp bonus), but that's something i can live with hehe.

[scaevola]

What i'd like to see on thf is a better mastery of a trait (be it damage, survivability, hate management) that's not related to treasure hunter. Otherwise the job will always be relegated to mules because the player really doesn't need to be active to set th.

Oh, you mean like having close to a flat 20% greater chance to dodge an attack than the next most evasive job, or the ability to plant hate from a large attack on another player, or even take hate from the same and redirect it to itself? And perhaps having these advantages ON TOP of Treasure Hunter, a totally unique advantage that by its mere existence makes THF a necessity?

Yes, I suppose that would compensate THF for not having the undisputed highest damage output in the game. :rolleyes:

(ps complaining that you can't outdamage a WAR or MNK is pretty silly when there are seventeen other jobs that can't outdamage WARs or MNKs either)



if dnc has more utility what is that thf can add to the table to balance that? Certainly not damage since both jobs are pretty much tied. One could say thf has TH. This doesn't make the job better tho, only necessary

DNC does the damage it is capable of doing by shutting off all utility other than Haste Samba. A DNC that cures is a DNC that is not using Saber Dance (to say nothing of TP spent), and is not at all competitive with a THF's damage; if you're proceeding from the assumption that DNC and THF are neck-and-neck damage-wise, then you have to basically write off DNC's ability to heal something more than once every three minutes.


Lol look at me talking about making JAs be affected by haste. And of course, if this was the case, it would just add more balance issues. Maybe only a select few JAs could get this bonus? haha I know dncs would also love their big waltzes with lower delays.


There are a lot of jobs, DNC included, that are already very powerful thanks to their JAs; allowing their recasts to scale with Haste would be just dumb.

I guess my SAM/DRG would be happy...?


(pps JA recasts reduced by haste, and suddenly THFs start crying about needing to sub NIN all the time because it turns out THF/COR with 30 second QD cooldowns is pretty loller)

[Alaik]

A flat 20% better evade rate? Dude, you really have to look up how evasion works. There's an evade cap and THF and DNC both hit it on most NMs easily. Trick Attack doesn't do anything after 20 seconds if your DD/tanks are any good cause of hate caps, look those up as well; at that point trick attack is just a dmg boosting ability. !!! > TH on 95% of all items in abyssea and outside isn't exactly important for most players.

THF and DNC are neck in neck dmg wise when DNC isn't giving up their utility, if they go balls to the wall they pull ahead. The exception being when twashtar comes into play, DNC can't utilize that NEAR as well as THF can.

[scaevola]

I was responding to Laphine pointing out that THF already does what he proposed they ought to do. Both DNC and THF can cap evasion against any Abyssea NM but THF's higher native evasion means DNC has to give up more gear slots to do it. The enmity cap problem is real but I believe overstated, since if the tank stays ahead of everybody else (perhaps with the assistance of TA!) the vast majority of NMs are going to be dead or close to it before DDs start capping; people assume it's an oversight, but I believe it's actually an intended penalty for low-manning.

THF does more damage than DNC if DNC is healing because DNC healing is an all-or-nothing proposition: either your group is counting on you to heal so you're saving TP for when you need it rather than spamming WSes, or they don't so you aren't. You are using Saber Dance furtively, if at all. Two CW3s for a pathetic 1200 or so healed is the equivalent of a 2k+ weapon skill for either of them. I really don't understand how one could come to a different conclusion.

[Laphine]

Oh, you mean like having close to a flat 20% greater chance to dodge an attack than the next most evasive job, or the ability to plant hate from a large attack on another player, or even take hate from the same and redirect it to itself? And perhaps having these advantages ON TOP of Treasure Hunter, a totally unique advantage that by its mere existence makes THF a necessity?

Yes, I suppose that would compensate THF for not having the undisputed highest damage output in the game.

Yep. We sure can do a lot of stuff, but none of them good enough (except THing), and every single one of these things we can do is outshined by THing. No one needs us because we evade better, plant hate, steal hate or debuff with xbow (laughable as it is).

TH does make us necessary, a necessary burden...and since the trait is easily activated by a simple /ra, most advanced groups got a TH mule that does nothing but a ranged attack and sits there. The last update was indeed positive on this aspect, and now we get more TH boosts by having an active thf. Whether these boosts are even worth a damn or not is another topic, and probably, most times they aren't. We then fall back to being a burden, and we can even add the tp feeding machine on top as condiment.

The other thing i can say we are good at is evading. Yeah, i won't deny that, but the real problem is that everyone can do it too. Every job in the game can have capped evasion against a number of mobs. Some (like thf) can cap on a wider range. But i can't really call ourselves masters of evasion while we are still limited to the 80% cap like everyone else. This is the reason why i liked ideas like having our very own anticipation/counter concept ja, by which we could dodge attacks randomly and break this 80% cap.



(ps complaining that you can't outdamage a WAR or MNK is pretty silly when there are seventeen other jobs that can't outdamage WARs or MNKs either)
Did i ever?

I only said we needed to set a parameter to compare balance between jobs. War for one exists to deal damage, doesn't add anything but damage, and so of course, it deserves to be the best dd there is. Now mnk has both great damage and survivability, i would call it unfair that mnk should be able to deal more damage than war.

We think of dnc vs thf and mnk vs thf too. In one side we have a job that's much better support than thf and does comparable damage (even if less, not so much less), and in the other side we have a job that does much more damage and have comparable (if not better) survivability. Where do we shine? Oh, there is the TH coin. But the problem is that it really doesn't take an actual player to throw this coin.


DNC does the damage it is capable of doing by shutting off all utility other than Haste Samba. A DNC that cures is a DNC that is not using Saber Dance (to say nothing of TP spent), and is not at all competitive with a THF's damage; if you're proceeding from the assumption that DNC and THF are neck-and-neck damage-wise, then you have to basically write off DNC's ability to heal something more than once every three minutes.

Not really. Dnc doesn't need saber dance to actually be able to beat a thf. It does, however, need to use JAs sparingly.

If a dnc does nothing but keep haste samba up, it will outdamage a thf. But such a dancer doesn't really exist, and saber dance becomes necessary to counter the dps loss of ja spam.

[Glamdring]

yes, thief need DW IX so I can sub paladin! get a life people, thief has plenty of abilities to make it unique and a strong job in it's own right. Triple attack puts end-game thief in the top damage dealers even without Atma, TH means we can actually afford to play (even if it doesn't work as well as we think it should). Flee|hide so we have an out when it all hits the fan and hate stealing abilities that would actually work better on a designed tank job-or at least on both.

Seriously, not every job should simply have every other job's signature abilities-and thief's signature abilities are steal, SATA and TH, not Dual Wield-otherwise we could simply redesign the game with no classes and you basically merit up every ability the game has to offer. Personally, I would quit.

[Laphine]

Seriously, not every job should simply have every other job's signature abilities-and thief's signature abilities are steal, SATA and TH, not Dual Wield-otherwise...

I do agree a lot with this.

We got a positive boost for TH on the last update. This was of course necessary because everyone else was getting TH2 access, and the gain from TH3 to TH2 is most likely smaller than TH1 to TH2 (decreasing returns like most things in the game). Now we just need a SA/TA and Steal fix (and who knows, fixing things like lockpicking would be awesome too) and i'll be a proud and happy thief.

All these abilities worked in one way or another back in 2003. Update after update the game evolved and most of them died out. Back then, considering how unique thief was, i would have seen no reason for us to deal big damage. After all we had much more to make it "fun" for us. Now if we consider this completely different game, with so many jobs that make it difficult to keep each one unique, stepping on each others business is inevitable.

[scaevola]

Yep. We sure can do a lot of stuff, but none of them good enough (except THing), and every single one of these things we can do is outshined by THing. No one needs us because we evade better, plant hate, steal hate or debuff with xbow (laughable as it is).

TH does make us necessary, a necessary burden...and since the trait is easily activated by a simple /ra, most advanced groups got a TH mule that does nothing but a ranged attack and sits there. The last update was indeed positive on this aspect, and now we get more TH boosts by having an active thf. Whether these boosts are even worth a damn or not is another topic, and probably, most times they aren't. We then fall back to being a burden, and we can even add the tp feeding machine on top as condiment.

Even if you were right, which you aren't because people use THF as a DD-centric tank all the time, there are 20 jobs in this game; everyone can be rendered down to a one-trick pony when you start putting them in groups. Do you think White Mages get the short end of the stick by being sought after because of their healing and not, uh, Hexastrike or Banish?

The best thing about FFXI, literally the best thing, is the ability to change jobs freely. If the primary unique benefit of the job you have chosen is insufficient for your needs, you can and should play another job, and the game encourages you to do so.



The other thing i can say we are good at is evading. Yeah, i won't deny that, but the real problem is that everyone can do it too. Every job in the game can have capped evasion against a number of mobs. Some (like thf) can cap on a wider range. But i can't really call ourselves masters of evasion while we are still limited to the 80% cap like everyone else. This is the reason why i liked ideas like having our very own anticipation/counter concept ja, by which we could dodge attacks randomly and break this 80% cap.


You can get to that 80% cap through the sacrifice of fewer gear slots than other jobs. DNC does okay, granted, but MNK is pretty screwed IIRC.


I only said we needed to set a parameter to compare balance between jobs. War for one exists to deal damage, doesn't add anything but damage, and so of course, it deserves to be the best dd there is. Now mnk has both great damage and survivability, i would call it unfair that mnk should be able to deal more damage than war.

I would disagree with the idea of WAR not having utility; WAR is, after all, the best Red !! proccer in the game, and while that might strike you as kind of beside the point, I'd say there are two reasons why it's relevant:

1) WAR is, by design, the "weapon master" class with the broadest selection of options, so it seems totally intended to me that a mechanic designed to encourage the use of multiple weapon types would be made with WAR in mind, and

2) the fact that this advantage is Abyssea-only is important for this discussion because while I concede DNC's damage in Abyssea might be a bit higher than it really needs to be, I assure you this is only because of its incredible Atma synergy. Dagger damage is still quite low outside and we don't get a better option than Dancing Edge. You wouldn't think the grass was so green on this side of the fence without Razed Ruins.


We think of dnc vs thf and mnk vs thf too. In one side we have a job that's much better support than thf and does comparable damage (even if less, not so much less), and in the other side we have a job that does much more damage and have comparable (if not better) survivability.

Counterstance has always been a horribly-designed ability. Funny how nobody complained about it when the game was still kind of hard.


Where do we shine? Oh, there is the TH coin. But the problem is that it really doesn't take an actual player to throw this coin.

This might hold water, except:

1) the much-needed TH proc mechanic, which added a little bit of interactivity (giving groups an incentive to find a way for the THF to TP on things you wouldn't normally TP on)

2) FFXI is, as a whole, pretty simplistic in terms of controls and activity; how are you going to say THF's best advantage is boring to use when DNC and MNK's best advantages, Haste Samba and Counterstance, are just as passive?


Not really. Dnc doesn't need saber dance to actually be able to beat a thf. It does, however, need to use JAs sparingly.

If a dnc does nothing but keep haste samba up, it will outdamage a thf. But such a dancer doesn't really exist, and saber dance becomes necessary to counter the dps loss of ja spam.

No, a DDing DNC keeps Saber Dance up because healing at all is a huge damage loss, so nothing is lost by locking out abilities you weren't going to use anyway.

Using JAs "sparingly" is a recipe for failure on any DD. That's pretty much why people stopped making skillchains in 2005.

[Alaik]

Counterstance a horrible ability?

I really don't know what to say....

[Laphine]

Anyone can tank today. Thief isn't used because it's good, it's used because it's convenient. Nothing wrong with that anyway. We get the job done, just really not with the same success rate of a mnk that has more dd power and survivability. Most times a thief is only able to tank due the lack of this better option. This was my case. I've tanked almost every nm from abyssea as thief because we didn't have a mnk. In big groups, no way a thief will ever get to be the main tank (which is reasonable after all), and before the last update, i wouldn't even doubt of the existence of groups that didn't allow their thieves to melee.

I've also invested a lot of time to get my thief together. Imagine now a new player as a thief. This guy wouldn't even have a chance among the big boys. In a big shell he would just sit in a corner, if lucky to get into a shell because he has no TH+ gear.

As i've said before (not exactly in these words) i don't want thief to become a mnk, i can just go out and level mnk if i felt like it. This is not for me though. I love this job called thief, and really wish for it to grow and evolve with the game. And i'm sure many here, if it isn't thief, have those jobs they relate with the most. Everyone deserves some patting from SE.

Anyway, saying "give us power!" is an easy thing to be said. This is the current hype in the game. I don't think it's too much too wish for since in 9 years of the game we have received 1 damage boost. And a indirect one at that. The dagger damage boost in 2006. And we did receive nerfs: SA positioning restriction and removal of tp floor ( that pretty much only affected thf and nin back then) are two i can think of.


You can get to that 80% cap through the sacrifice of fewer gear slots than other jobs. DNC does okay, granted, but MNK is pretty screwed IIRC.

Naked monk vs naked thief should have a difference of evasion rate of about 34% on average. If a thief has a bit more than 50% evasion rate against high level nm, it's not far fetched that a mnk would have about 20%. Monk does have his own unique damage mitigation tool: counter. 70% counter is easilly reached with 10% base, 10% GH (maybe 15%?), 50% counterstance (far from horrible). With 20% evasion and 70% counter a mnk mitigates 76% of the melee damage he receives. The other 24% damage the mnk receives would have increased multipliers due low defense though. Still, the mnk can mitigate this even further with perfect counter ( its own TE+Seigan) and not to say a better pdt selection (who wears this anyway).

Having an over the floor evasion also means that any extra point of evasion added will be put to use. So it's not unreasonable for a mnk to use an evasion set while casting utsu:ichi (but wait, what mnk does /nin anyway?).


No, a DDing DNC keeps Saber Dance up because healing at all is a huge damage loss, so nothing is lost by locking out abilities you weren't going to use anyway.

Using JAs "sparingly" is a recipe for failure on any DD. That's pretty much why people stopped making skillchains in 2005.

The reason why dancer can't spam JA is because this does decrease their dps. Each JA used locks the dancer dagger swing for 2 sec. And each JA used after the first one adds another second. So if you use 2 JAs one after another (like sata) you lose 3 secs of damage. Sure there are dances that can be used to increase the dps (which might or not counter the lost seconds), and those that obviously won't. Thief is also affected by this with sa/ta, but we don't get to spam them like dancers do with their dances.

Let's math something out just for the sake of it.

Some considerations:

-Thief using Twash+Triplus, Dancer using Twash+DA Parazonium (not sure on best dnc off hand weapon).

-Thief with 33% DW, Dancer with 48%, and both with 25% haste (not even going to use haste samba).

-Thief with 44% TA and 13% DA, Dancer with 28% TA and 23% DA(no saber dance). ->This also means RR/AO/Apoc atma combo.

-Thief with 1.8 cratio, and since dance has about 30 less attack, dancer cratio is 1.725. Thief has 58% crit rate (with 38% extra damage) and dancer 54% crit rate (with 43% extra damage).

THIEF
Attack round base damage: 80
Round base delay: 352 ||| DW delay: 235 ||| Haste delay: 176
TP/hit: 4.4
TP/s: 2.256
Dps:29.31
Multi hit average: 1.9528
Multi hit modified dps: 57.23
TP/s (after STP and multi hits): 6.12
Attack modified dps(Attack + crit bonus 2.99 multiplier): 171.12

Calculating SA/TA gain:
(Using 60 70 secs being a humanly possible average usage with an aggressive stance)
SA @ 280 dex = +336(20% boost) base damage every 60 secs.
Base added dps: 5.6
Crit modified dps (4.0 multiplier ) = 22.4

TA @ 230 agi.= +264(15% boost) base damage every 70 secs.
Base added dps: 3.77
Crit modified dps (4.0 multiplier)= 15.08

SA/TA dps: 37.48
60% hit rate: 22.48 (it's not uncommon to miss sa/tas)

Thief SA/TA modified dps: 193.6 (or 208.6 by never missing a single sa/ta)

DANCER
Attack round base damage: 93
Round base delay: 387 ||| DW delay: 201 ||| Haste delay: 150
TP/hit: 4.3
TP/s: 2.554
Dps:37.2
Multi hit average: 1.7256
Multi hit modified dps: 64.19
TP/s (after STP and multi hits): 7.17
Attack modified dps(Attack+ crit bonus 2.89 multiplier): 185.51

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So there we have it: 193.6 dps to thf and 185.5 dps to dnc. This is only the dagger swing damage for both; i didn't factor ws damage. Things might or not change if we add ws to the mix. To calculate ws damage contribution to dps i would need ws sets, and oh well, i'm not really in the mood to check these out (maybe later). But thief will need to ws quite a bit harder to counter the dancer tp gain.

And finally this calculation simulates a dancer that only hit stuff and ws. At least i don't feel so humiliated by being outdamage by an "afk" dancer. We still have to work to reach this dancer damage performance tho <.<

[scaevola]

Counterstance a horrible ability?

I really don't know what to say....


Yes, an ability that stops half of all incoming hits in a game with a spell like Utsusemi available to all classes via easy customization is terrible design.

Sorry that you somehow managed to read that wrong, but I'm not sure how anybody could not think Counterstance is broken just from looking at the help text.



b-b-b-but monks

counterstance is a terribly-designed ability and while we're at it H2H damage calculation is pretty messed up, too, but i have never claimed every other job in the game is not pretty bad compared to MNK


also, if you're feeling saucy you could sub MNK yourself to tank


(it is actually pretty good for aga-heavy NMs with lots of debuffs, like Fuath, for instance)


math that leaves out weapon skills so as to ignore how much better Twashtar is for THF than DNC, and also assumes a Twashtar THF or DNC has any reason to bother doing anything meaningful without WHM or BRD support, making up the delay reduction deficit as they both hit the cap

oh and also i guess that either of these hypothetical dudes WILL be tanking whatever they fight (the DNC, who can't TA/Rudra's, will be doing so immediately) and the THF's higher evasion makes him less likely to have to worry about taking AO out for GH, but whatever

Three things.

1) I said initially I believed the solution was an increased utility for SA/TA, so that they could be used more readily.

2) In any real-world situation, you are not endlessly swinging in perpetuity. The less your time on target, the better SA and TA become; downtime between pulls while meriting is less an issue now and Abyssea lets you be lazy about endlessly TPing on NMs, but we'll be leaving there soon and will be back in a world where you actually have to try not to feed TP or get drilled by AoEs. This is why X's/blau was better than blau/sirocco, even though the latter was mathematically more DPS with the added effect factored in, as somebody on alla figured out a few years ago and no, I won't go dig up that thread, because holy crap waste of time.

3) Perhaps more importantly, if either THF or DNC, hell, if ANYONE is doing around 200 DPS, which is enough to solo down Raja, iirc the highest health mob in Abyssea at 150k, in 12 and a half minutes, does it really matter who is doing more? It's like arguing whether level 99 Steiner is better than level 99 Amarant when they can both kill Ozma in like 3 turns.

[Laphine]

Yes, utsusemi is certainly the most broken thing in the game in terms of defense. Still, in the current state of the game, it's hardly necessary. Thief is even among those that can brag about not needing it, being that i've heard accounts of thieves tanking things like orthrus as /war. Mnk is on its own level though (b-b-b-but monks indeed). Again: great damage mitigation without sacrificing dot in any way (which anyone is doing just by casting utsusemi), high hp pool to afford being hit, and the list goes on.

I agree with you that we could make /mnk work. But we are still working with trade-offs because +10 DW it's a very big deal. The day we get natural DW3 this sub will become very interesting.

1) Agreed.

2) Agreed. SA/TA doesn't get better though. It's % on our total damage does increase, yeah, because we decrease the normal dot.

3) 200dps, but this method doesn't provide very realistic numbers but it's good enough as a mean to compare them, as it simplifies things. Two things that would reduce these numbers are considering 95% hit rate and using pdif instead of cratio. So the reason why we don't have 200dps on Raja is because we simply don't have 1.8 cratio and 100% hit rate.

My idea on that math was to use evisceration to compare the jobs. This of couse, favors dancer, since as you have said, thief can put RS to better use. But this simplifies the calculation because i didn't have to worry about reducing SA dps and increase ws dps. And because evis is taken as the better option when soloing a ws i decided using it full time. Why are you crying anyway? Thief won. I lost the discussion that dancer could beat thief with a hand tied.

This doesn't change my belief that we deserve a damage boost. Even SE promised it last year saying something like increasing thief damage on hnms or something. We have forgotten about what's hnm today, but i still don't see much that contributes to that finality today.

[Alaik]

No, counterstance is not underpowered. At all. You don't block 100% of attacks, only 75-80%.. And increasing your DoT every single time. Utsusemi is casting and losing a more damaging sub. This isn't 2004 where MP was like gold. Give me a choice between a MNK with relic feet, merits and GH and a MNK who's subbing NIN and not using counterstance... The goal isn't to make the healer able to sleep, and if we've learned anything it's DEF/VIT aren't even in the top 5 defensive stats. My wife actually complains about not being able to heal enough with MNK/WAR tanks.

You know what, forget it.

[Karbuncle]

Counterstance is actually incredibly useful. I'll "Do it" for Alaik. The Ability that while creating a defense that allows you to take 0 Damage and in turn INFLICT the enemy with some pretty decent damage, drastically increasing your DPS as ~80% of the Enemys attacks become your attacks.

Yes Utsusemi Is amazing, But Alaik is right, Its not (RIGHT NOW! Not Post-Abyssea!) the same age where MP Was Gold and everyone needed to Keep up shadows/etc. Counterstance is an amazing tool for jobs that do-not rely on Evasion. Key words there. (Jobs that don't rely on Evasion)

That being said, on THF, the Ability is far less useful than on MNK, as THF have super-high EVA, So they are unlikely to be hit more than ~20% of the time (I think thats EVA cap?). Meaning you'll counter far less attacks, It'll be less on your DPS than a MNK would gain from it, by -alot-. But it's still there however.

When it comes down to it i think /NIN will win until THF Gets Dual Wield III or higher, After that its really a toss up depending on what your fighting, and where it is. If you ever do Inside abyssea content 95+ when THF is likely to get Dual Wield III, /MNK will outperform /NIN in everyway. Your WHM will never run out of MP, and baring the mob you're fighting, you should never be one-shotted either. /MNK's "Defensive" Ability doesn't rely on reducing your DPS (Shadow Casting) and instead only servers to INCREASE your DPS.

Then Again, NIN/MNK would probably be better than NIN/anything if you're Duoing a mob with a WHM. You won't need the extra Survivability from /DNC, and NIN's have less EVA than THF, while they can still cap EVA on a lot of mobs, They fall behind on some bigger game. making /MNK+Counter-stance more viable. Assuming the mob doesn't have a TP move that could potentially 1-shot you (not many do, Mind you).

Is really is complicated, but TL;DR I think right now THF/NIN is winning, If/When THF gets Dual wield III /MNK will be a better Subjob for Inside-Abyssea Activities (when duoing with a WHM, or tanking with WHM in group). When we move out of Abyssea, Not so much. (which will happen).

[Alaik]

^^^^^^ This.

EDIT: Thank you Karbuncle for taking the time to explain it further.

[scaevola]

Wow, incredible.

Counterstance is brokenly overpowered. Yes. This is what I meant when I said it was broken.

Take 15 seconds to read what I what I posted and explain to me how anything I said could be understood as Counterstance being weak.


I passingly advocated /MNK novelty tanking for mobs on which shadows are by-design impractical, though unless it's something that just has a straight-up silence aura /BLU is probably better.

EDIT: If you're zeroing in on the part where I said "MNKs get screwed", that was pretty obviously in reference to a lack of +evasion on their gear compared to NIN, THF, or DNC (they're out 20 evasion and 9 agi right out of the gate for not being able to DW); it's a testament to how broken Counterstance really is that MNK is considered a tank at all.

[Karbuncle]

Wow, incredible.

Counterstance is brokenly overpowered. Yes. This is what I meant when I said it was broken.

Take 15 seconds to read what I what I posted and explain to me how anything I said could be understood as Counterstance being weak.


I passingly advocated /MNK novelty tanking for mobs on which shadows are by-design impractical, though unless it's something that just has a straight-up silence aura /BLU is probably better.

I'm working off reading Alaik's Posts. If his responses don't reflect your argument you can ignore my response as I would be working from an Inaccurate representation of your thoughts.

Sarcasm and berating is not required nor needed.

Thank you and good Day!

[Laphine]

lol some misunderstanding. When i replied i only kept "horrible design" in my mind and not the whole context you used it hehe. It's all Alaik's fault!!

[Karbuncle]

Indubitably my good Laphine, Indubitably.

[Alaik]

Counterstance a horrible ability?

I really don't know what to say....


Yes, an ability that stops half of all incoming hits in a game with a spell like Utsusemi available to all classes via easy customization is terrible design.

Yes when asked, "Counterstance is a horrible ability?", also the way you're comparing it to utsusemi (One of the ackowledged best forms of damage mitagation in the game) also implies it's terrible in comparison. It would be like someone saying, "Cars being able to take you 360 miles in 6 hours when a jet can take you 2,000 miles is terrible design." did you flat out say cars are terrible? No, but it's sure implied.




counterstance is a terribly-designed ability and while we're at it H2H damage calculation is pretty messed up, too, but i have never claimed every other job in the game is not pretty bad compared to MNK

Again, "While we're at it" implying both are in similar states in your opinion and then stating, "Not that I'm saying others jobs have it better." which, "while we're at it", double negatives are typically a no-no.

Of course that's based off the fact I have never heard someone say, "Man, having a million dollars is so great, not that I never said that other income classes don't have it worse than them."

Yeah, but if everyone thought it meant one thing, it's their fault, not your poor wording choice.

EDIT: Karbuncle, lay off my word. I am the only one allowed to say "Indubitably", and am in fact required to say it 5 times per sentence. Read ffxiah!

[Karbuncle]

Yes when asked, "Counterstance is a horrible ability?", also the way you're comparing it to utsusemi (One of the ackowledged best forms of damage mitagation in the game) also implies it's terrible in comparison. It would be like someone saying, "Cars being able to take you 360 miles in 6 hours when a jet can take you 2,000 miles is terrible design." did you flat out say cars are terrible? No, but it's sure implied.





Again, "While we're at it" implying both are in similar states in your opinion and then stating, "Not that I'm saying others jobs have it better." which, "while we're at it", double negatives are typically a no-no.

Of course that's based off the fact I have never heard someone say, "Man, having a million dollars is so great, not that I never said that other income classes don't have it worse than them."

Yeah, but if everyone thought it meant one thing, it's their fault, not your poor wording choice.

EDIT: Karbuncle, lay off my word. I am the only one allowed to say "Indubitably", and am in fact required to say it 5 times per sentence. Read ffxiah!

Interesting.

So my Original post still applies!

WOO!

[scaevola]

Yes when asked, "Counterstance is a horrible ability?", also the way you're comparing it to utsusemi (One of the ackowledged best forms of damage mitagation in the game) also implies it's terrible in comparison. It would be like someone saying, "Cars being able to take you 360 miles in 6 hours when a jet can take you 2,000 miles is terrible design." did you flat out say cars are terrible? No, but it's sure implied.


The quote means Counterstance is made horribly overpowered by the existence of Utsusemi. Though certainly an open question, I think there's an argument to be made that Counterstance would be balanced and fine if Utsusemi did not allow MNK to basically ignore its pretty huge penalty. I am not evaluating the effectiveness of each against the other, at least not in that quote. There may be other ways to read it but given the context (especially the context to which you originally replied), none of them strike me as particularly reasonable.


Again, "While we're at it" implying both are in similar states in your opinion and then stating, "Not that I'm saying others jobs have it better." which, "while we're at it", double negatives are typically a no-no.


The strength of language lies in its versatility, and double negatives are sometimes useful as a rhetorical flourish. The person who told you they were bad was a 7th Grade English teacher who (apparently correctly) thought they were too subtle for you to handle.

Counterstance is broken, and the scaling of hand-to-hand damage calculation is also messed up. This does not mean that they are messed up in ways that are bad for the people who use them.

[Alaik]

Double negatives are nonstandard in most English speaking countries outside South America, actually. Unless you want to argue you meant double negatives in Afrikaans next.

Double negatives can denote one of two things: an inversion of the verb's original meaning. "I didn't do nothing" Not doing nothing = doing something.

Or in the rarer case, they are used (again, often in south american countries) to cause a weakened form of affirmation.

Either way it's not the way you applied it. But hey, you know rules of the English language the guys at Oxford don't is WAY more plausible than some guy back pedaling once Karbuncle dropped some knowledge on them.

Totally forgive me, I won't mention it again. It'll be out of sheer respect for you and your unseen knowledge of how people are supposed to use poor language the right way. Not because I think we're arguing in circles because someone can't say they were wrong.

[scaevola]

Double negatives can denote one of two things: an inversion of the verb's original meaning. "I didn't do nothing" Not doing nothing = doing something.


There seems to be some confusion here.

In order to be a double negative in the sense that you mean, the two negatives must be in the same clause.


I have never claimed

independent clause; negative used to underscore absence of an as-of-yet-unidentified claim


that

optional introductory word for dependent clause, which I omitted


every other job in the game is not pretty bad compared to MNK

dependent clause that admittedly could do without "pretty"; internal litotes ("not bad"), clause as a whole refers to the claim the independent clause said I wasn't making


The two negatives create the effect of a litotes throughout the phrase ("I wouldn't say it isn't bad", if that serves as a simpler example)

Dig?


EDIT: "I didn't do nothing" could actually be a good example of a litotes, though not in the sense you're using it. "I didn't do nothing" could mean something distinct from "I did something" in the same way "It isn't terrible" means something distinct from "It's great".

[Alaik]

The two phrases "I didn't do nothing" and "It isn't terrible" aren't really anything alike. I did not do nothing does in fact mean you did something. There's no way saying you did nothing would be you did anything. Saying it isn't terrible means, you guessed it. It isn't terrible. Could be average, amazing or just mildly poor, but not terrible. You could in fact look up litotes in any high school level textbook and get that much.

Either way, arguing linguistics dependent on intonation (as a generalization) is retarded and not the point. You say you meant something other than what people thought you meant by your wording, cool, whatever.

[scaevola]

You say you meant something other than what people thought you meant by your wording, cool, whatever.

(pretty sure that was just you, friend; nobody else seems to have bothered reading what i typed, so i guess i should thank you for that)

[noodles355]

Where are people getting this 75-80% counter attack rate from? Counterstance brings your base counter rate up to 50%. With Gnarled Horn you're looking at 60% on Thf/Mnk. Not 80%. Exaggerate less.

[scaevola]

I think we were all referring to MNK main with that number, not /MNK.

[Laphine]

Don't remember anyone saying 80% counter rate, but there is a base counter of 10% too, and i imagine it's not gimped as sub, so that's a final 70%.

[noodles355]

Don't remember anyone saying 80% counter rate, but there is a base counter of 10% too, and i imagine it's not gimped as sub, so that's a final 70%.No, counterstance brings your counter rate from 10% to 50%. It is not +50%.

[Laphine]

hmmm, that's interesting, and a bit odd too.

I remember an account of a 75% counter rate parse somwhere. A theorical counter rate (with my old understanding) would be 80% but the 95% hit rate would put it pretty much on 75%. Can't remember with much detail anyway.