[DEV 1009] Kings update, drop rates.

[wish12oz]

So it's been a few days now, and it has become apparent that the drop rate from NQ kings on the HQ king pop, is right around 5%.
I am completely outraged at this.
The only item from kings left for me to acquire is a defending ring, it's been that way for a long time, and I was pretty happy initially with this announcement, but this is just stupid.

Let's do some quick math for a second.
99 KS per NQ pop, 5% drop rate on HQ pop, then 5% drop rate on Defending ring.
5% drop rate means 1 in 20 drops drops the item.

So how many kindred seals do you need to get a King Behemoth pop?
99*20=1980.
So you need 1,980 KS per King Behemoth pop, then on top of that, Defending ring is 5% drop rate, so you need
(1980*20) 39,600 Kindred seals per Defending ring on average.

I was expecting to be able to actually work towards this goal and have it be something that I could actually acquire, but this is to much and just downright stupid. You need to increase the drop rate on Defending ring to at least 35% or increase the drop rate on HQ pop items to at least 35%, either of these is ok with me, because then you would only need around 6,000 kindred seals per Defending ring, which is a goal you can realistically work towards with a lot of effort.

Beyond doing this, you need say that you're doing it, and give specifics. If you raise the drop rate on HQ pops, you need to tell us how much you're increasing the drop rate to, same with Defending ring. And yes, I'm mad.

[Runespider]

It's a rare drop, one of THE most rare drops infact.

If it was common nobody would care for it much at all, it's a trophy piece. Be glad you have any chance at it, before this update you had pretty much none. I'm in the same position as you btw, I have everything else from kings long ago this being the last.

[wish12oz]

It's a rare drop, one of THE most rare drops infact.

If it was common nobody would care for it much at all, it's a trophy piece. Be glad you have any chance at it, before this update you had pretty much none. I'm in the same position as you btw, I have everything else from kings long ago this being the last.

I actually had more of a chance at it before the update, so did everyone else who actually wanted it, because I could camp it, pay attention for 7 minutes during 3 hours, and then if I won claim just solo it with my NIN and WHM mule.

And its good because it's good, not because it's rare. You can get almost half your remaining MDT required to cap from this 1 item, and it has -10% Physical damage too! (capped sellra5 is 27%, 23% MDT required to cap, D ring would give -10%)

But seriously, you think 40,000 kindred seals per D ring is ok? seriously?

[Runespider]

But seriously, you think 40,000 kindred seals per D ring is ok? seriously?

It's random, some newb could get one on his first shot. It's not guaranteed to need the numbers you give.

As I said it's still better than before, I know on my server we were lucky to see 1-2 a year and that would only be to a handfull of shells. This fits into "nothing else to complain about" imo.

They will either leave it as it is or make it as common as a jelly ring, you know how this stuff works.

[wish12oz]

It's random

It is random, but this is the average.
AVERAGE
Give it a year and there will be 1 new Defending ring per 40,000 wasted seals. That's how it works.
Which is also the problem, some random guy will get one first pop, and people who try to get it and are smart enough to use it correctly never will.

As a side comment: I've played since NA PC launch and I've only acquired 3000 or so Kindred seals, Leveling 7 jobs to 75 and almost capping merits before abyssea, and before Kindred crests/HKC's existed to take the drop slot of kindred seals. Maybe that information will help you put the average required into perspective.
40,000 is NEVER going to happen, it's just not feasible.



They will either leave it as it is or make it as common as a jelly ring, you know how this stuff works.

It doesn't have to be common, I gave a good drop rate percentage that would keep it rare but also keep it as an eventual goal people could realistically work towards. I just think 40,000 is a slap in the face and an insult.

[GlobalVariable]

Defending ring is as near a myth as drops get, when the NM was a free spawn we'd see what, 1 drop per 2 years? Serious question, anyone got any actual data to go on for it, tell me. I know its always been crazy rare.

edit:
Pardon me if I don't take wiki's data as accurate even if I implicitly trust such a small sample size to be accurate it seems like there would be high probability of many of unreported kills without a drop.

[Arcon]

It's a rare drop, one of THE most rare drops infact.

If it was common nobody would care for it much at all, it's a trophy piece. Be glad you have any chance at it, before this update you had pretty much none. I'm in the same position as you btw, I have everything else from kings long ago this being the last.

Before this update I agreed with you. Now I severely disagree. Before the update you had a very slim chance. Now you have realistically none.

For comparison: In a KSNM run, which is already outside of the reach of some players who burned their KS on other things pre-Abyssea, and since have barely made any Kindred's Seals at all, you have a chance of 0.25%, or 1 in 400 to obtain a Defending Ring. That means that only one item will drop for every 400 KS99 done by people, on average.

Before you actually had to go out and camp it, and I've done it recently, there wasn't as much competition as there used to be, only after maintenance. Most people simply didn't wanna go through the trouble. Those who actually wanted to work towards getting it, those were the people standing there and camping it, and it wasn't that many. While it was still a rare chance, at least you could do something about it. After enough camping, even after three years, it could be yours. 400 KS99 on the other hand is completely unrealistic. All they've done is make it accessible to random people who casually try it every now and then, but people who actually wanna put effort into it are likely to be completely unrewarded for it.

400 KS99, I don't believe any player has ever done that many, even considering other people's pops. If you do one KS99 every day, you'd still be on it for over a year. And there's no way you can ever farm that many pops, it takes at the very least 8h 15min to get 100 KS, then do the KS99, then do the NQ, then do the HQ. That chain alone is worth more than one day of effort put into it, and statistically it's more likely to be a three or four day effort, because Kindred's Seals don't always drop that much.

Which means even if you dedicate every day, all day long, every hour you play just to obtaining a Defending Ring, high chance says you'll still be here this time next year, empty handed, and quite possibly for more years after that. If you're a casual player, high chance says you won't get it in a life time (literally one human life time).

Even with a 100% HQ pop I didn't like this idea very much, because it still means I have to get 2,000 KS on average for a Defending Ring (and knowing my luck it'll be more like 10,000 KS), but at least that I could work on. With the current system I won't even bother, because it took me years of playing casually to get ~500 KS. I'm sure as hell not gonna farm 80 times the amount that took me several years to accumulate.

It seems this update had the casual MNKs in mind, and nothing else.

[wish12oz]

Defending ring is as near a myth as drops get, when the NM was a free spawn we'd see what, 1 drop per 2 years? Serious question, anyone got any actual data to go on for it, tell me. I know its always been crazy rare.

The real drop rate is 5%, which is once every 20 KBs, which averaged once a week real time per spawn basically, so every 20 weeks a new one would drop. Which is every 4 months on average.



edit:
Pardon me if I don't take wiki's data as accurate even if I implicitly trust such a small sample size to be accurate it seems like there would be high probability of many of unreported kills without a drop.

If you camped kings seriously at all, you knew when D rings dropped, and I assure you the rate is right around 3 per year, I don't really care if you believe me or the wiki or anything else, go ask oldschool hardcore HNMLS people on your server.

Or! actually, I know of this LS, they chased off every other HNMLS on their server and recorded drops and kills on their forums, and got every D ring on their server the whole time they were an LS, why don't you go there, check their old posts on their forums, and then you can get specifics regarding how often KB spawned on their server, and how often it dropped D ring.

http://z6.invisionfree.com/NewKazoku/index.php?showforum=20
Here's the specifics:
In 51 KBs, they got 3 D rings. Which is just over 5%, but since this is a very small sample size, we can assume a small margin of error, so between like 4% and 8% would be their drop rate
11/15/09 - 10/31/2010 is the date recorded for the 51 kills, 349 days. If we assume they got every KB that poped, that's an average of 6.8 days between pops. or once a week like I said.

So this LS's statistics are exactly what I said.

[MarkovChain]

Gotta love BG rejects doing statistics with 50 sample size. Also D ring is useless : Cure 6 etc. Anyone easily caps mdt/pdt if they want to.

[Rorald]

I've personally seen KB pop with no competition and killed with mules many times in the past months before the update, so saying you had no chance before isint right at all.

Agree with the OP, you have to understand that your not going to get 99 ks's with any speed at all and it will take a long time, and after that you have to realize how slim your chances of even getting a kb pop. Kings poped usually onec a week before now youll prolly be lucky if you even see one king a month on your entire server, there is no way you can see that as having a better chance @ getting dring then before.

and @ Mark, its best for slot enough said.

Regardless of all that i was thinking the idea was to actually help people get their BB items but now your basiclly only gonna get it from the ks99 which you could do already.

[Rie]

Gotta love BG rejects doing statistics with 50 sample size. Also D ring is useless : Cure 6 etc. Anyone easily caps mdt/pdt if they want to.

Sample size of 50 isn't horrible for something that occured on average once per week. So much mayad towards BG, are you still hurt about getting bant?

[Kari]

Just wanted to say that my group got a D Ring on our first ever KB kill together. [My first kill ever, too.]
This was before the new system, where we happened to find KB just sitting in his zone by himself.
So, average is average, but it doesn't mean you're not going to be the one in that average to not waste a ton of seals.

Either way, I do prefer the old system. New system would have been fine, if they kept some natural spawn conditions or something.

[wish12oz]

New system would have been fine, if they kept some natural spawn conditions or something.

New system would be fine if you got HQ pops at a rate of at least 33% from NQs. 300 KS for chances at the old gear isn't terrible, it's not like most of the stuff is even good anymore. But 20 KS99's per HQ pop on average is just ludicrous.

[MarkovChain]

I've said it [deleted by moderator] when the giant thread occured and nobody would listen. The new system is 10x worst than the previous one for 3 mains reasons

* Nobody has KS because nobody does exp on pre 80 mobs
* For the same reasons the global of amount KS on the server increases very slowly, not that it matters because you can't buy others KS so you have to farm them on your own.
* You are losing the chance of free pop NM or even buying it from others

As a result, I think the difficulty of getting BB is about the same as pre VU and 10x worse than prior to abyssea.

King have always been SE's little baby. They don't want people to kill them, I don't know why. Make D ring be a rare drop from shinryu if you kill it without brewing, problem solved.

[Shibayama]

I have to agree that something needs to be done about the kings drop rate. I feel like the drop rate of the +1 pop items is horribly low (been on 11 runs so far and not one has dropped even with thf's trying for "max TH" each time) in comparison to the amount of regular pops you can get. Were the requirement to fighting the first kings different (such as getting the pop item through a different means) I think it would be alright if the +1's were so rare.

However my group spent over 1000 seals trying for +1 pops and got nothing. I think it's a little unusual to set up a tiered system of popping them, with many people's goal the +1 kings, making the first two relatively easy and the last the equivalent of a Kraken club. Maybe if the drop rate were atleast 25% on king +1 items, it would be a bit easier to swallow.

[Tamoa]

I was there for the last "real" KB spawn and kill on Asura, popped 2 minutes before the update was scheduled to start. It was actually a rather nostalgic occasion, kings have been a part of this game for so many years, and now they are gone. The times I went to camp KB in the last few months, there was never much competition, and next to none for the last 2-3 weeks. So yes, I do believe that if you were serious about obtaining a Defending Ring, your chances of obtaining one were much better before this update.

[Runespider]

Almost everything from kings is now obsolete, they said they are making a belt stronger than BB. You think they won't add a defending ring +1 anyway?

[thinktank909]

The +1 pop items for the HQ Kings should have a fair drop rate of 1/6 like how the NM's used to pop once per 5-7 days.

[Tamoa]

The +1 pop items for the HQ Kings should have a fair drop rate of 1/6 like how the NM's used to pop once per 5-7 days.

Err, I have seen plenty day 4 king pop, I have also seen a day 13 King Behemot pop. Day 8+ king pops weren't that uncommon back when I actively camped all 3 kings either.

But either way, as it is now, it seems that the only way of obtaining a Defending Ring is through some amazingly dumb luck and nothing else. SE should have just left kings alone, they weren't exactly overcamped these last few months.

[Garota]

Proc Blue !!

[Gokku]

serious question has any even gotten a HQ king item to drop? my ls is 0/8 4 faffys 4 behemoths all with th8-10 on kills and nodda has droped.

[Yarly]

Drop rates for the pop items for HQ kings need to be increased to at LEAST 33%. This isn't a complaint about wanting gear nowz and whatnot. This is a necessary fix for OLD content.

The crappy drop rates that we're all so used to should be left for the new mobs, for new gear.

[Rorald]

In all that ive heard out of probably 75+ at this point now on behemoth i havent heard of anyone getting HQ item.
I read about 2/7 on turtle and i think maybe 1/10 nid.

[GlobalVariable]

go ask oldschool hardcore HNMLS people I thought I just did exactly that.


I don't really care if you believe me or the wiki or anything elseChill out. All I did was give reasons why I was asking here in my edit and went to bed because I was dozing off in the edit window. I didn't even read past where my own post is till I got up today.

[Karbuncle]

I've said blurp thread occured and nobody would listen. The new system is 10x worst than the previous one for 3 mains reasons


I post here like... twice a week at best now. Or a few times 1 night once a week. I don't get your personal grudge for me...

[Coldbrand]

Gotta love BG rejects doing statistics with 50 sample size. Also D ring is useless : Cure 6 etc. Anyone easily caps mdt/pdt if they want to.
Defending Ring is useless? What a stupid post, Jesus Christ. God forbid blue gartr people actually use logic and math, it's almost as if they provide results and allow people to reinforce arguments.

[MarkovChain]

I post here like... twice a week at best now. Or a few times 1 night once a week. Grow up.

It's weird because your profile shows an average of 17 post per days.

[MarkovChain]

Defending Ring is useless? What a stupid post, Jesus Christ. God forbid blue gartr people actually use logic and math, it's almost as if they provide results and allow people to reinforce arguments.

It's useless because almost every job can cap pdt and mdt for one, and for two cure 6 removes the need of any defensive stat. This has nothing to do with doing math, just common sense. Now if we are back to killing stuff than can do 1k + while having 2K HP sure.. maybe.

[Karbuncle]

It's weird because your profile shows an average of 17 post per days.

that's based off how many posts you have over time from your start date and averages them, not as a completely factual representation of day by day posting.

I posted a lot when the forums were first released, So my averages are high, even though as of late I have posted less and less often.

Edit: Well, Less often than i used too. used to average like 30 a day when the forums were first released.
.....

on a more Topical note. The drop rate is rather low. Upping it just a bit would be reasonable. Give it maybe a ~20% "upgrade' rate. The current system is even crushing those who were excited about the update.

[Anewie]

Im with Tomao on this one (and we HATE EACHOTHER <3).

Useless fix/update is useless. No one cared and the people who did, did not, and do not like something like this..

[RaenRyong]

I post here like... twice a week at best now. Or a few times 1 night once a week. I don't get your personal grudge for me...

Pchan hates EVERYONE.

Popped kings are a great idea - botting and competing over claims is just artificial skill-less competition and should be eliminated.

... however, stupidly low drop rates are a terrible and boring way of sustaining gameplay (and how FFXI used to be)! Please change them. I don't want to sit through 20 KS99s on average just to get an MBody.

[wish12oz]

I thought I just did exactly that.

Chill out.

You ask, I said it's it's 5% and you doubted it, so I provided information to prove my prove my point. And I'm not angry at you or being hostile with you, just providing information to back up my claims.


Gotta love BG rejects doing statistics with 50 sample size. Also D ring is useless : Cure 6 etc. Anyone easily caps mdt/pdt if they want to.

Ya Pchan, a whole year's worth of statistics is terrible. I just posted that to go with what the wiki said and personal experience, if you have statistics that say something else please present them and argue against me, but I doubt you do, cause you never have anything useful to say. So take your full usukane, your earth resist build, and go back to brewing the dragua's you said were so easy and tried to make fun of people for brewing.

How about this, in the just over 2 and a half years I actively did HNMs, I can name all 8 D rings that dropped in that time frame. That's 2 and a half years worth of statics saying 5% drop rate, combined with that LS's posted rates, and combined with what wiki/alla/every other site says the drop rate is. Is that good enough? Or do you think it's worth arguing that the drop rate is not 5%?

I got an idea, how about you go to this thread here:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/3647-What-is-the-best-DD?p=54703&viewfull=1#post54703
And answer the question I have ask you to answer 10 times now, that you refuse to answer because you know you're wrong.

Let's take one last look at something you said, you called me a BG reject. Implying that I am somehow rejected from BG. Last I checked, about an hour ago, I'm not banned from BG, and people don't respond to every post I make telling me how stupid I am, so I have not been rejected there, unlike you. So now, how exactly am I a BG reject?


It's useless because almost every job can cap pdt and mdt for one, and for two cure 6 removes the need of any defensive stat. This has nothing to do with doing math, just common sense. Now if we are back to killing stuff than can do 1k + while having 2K HP sure.. maybe.

Defending ring is the best piece in the game for MDT and PDT combined or separate.
You give up the least in the ring slot for it compared to anywhere else.
Most jobs cannot actually cap PDT without giving up their weapon slots.
You argue people should carry around 20 pieces of gear to reduce magic damage by 15% when you can reach 33% reduction with 4 pieces of gear, why are you saying this isn't worth it? I completely don't get your logic.
This update has tons of outside abyssea content, every other update from this point on will be that way too, saying stuff is only useful outside of abyssea is not a valid arguement.

Now stop ruining my thread with your off topic comments Pchan, no one likes you and no one cares what you have to say, just like on FFXIAH, BG, and everywhere else you try to throw your opinion around and provide nothing useful.

[GlobalVariable]

And I'm not angry at you or being hostile with you, just providing information to back up my claims. It just looked like you thought the edit was a reply to you, it wasn't. Either way thank you for the info and linking that was indeed helpful.

[RaenRyong]

beautiful words

I'm afraid I'll be needing video evidence of each and every one of those D Ring drops and non-drops. When you show me the video, I will pretend it doesn't exist and start insulting you instead.

[rog]

It's weird because your profile shows an average of 17 post per days.
You must have missed the qualifier "now". My profile says 13.6 posts/day, and now i post around once a day on average. It says 13.6, because for the first few days the forums were up, i averaged 100+ posts per day, then after that i averaged 10-20 for a few weeks, after which i averaged 2-5, and currently post 0-3 times or so per day. That is how averages work. They do not necessarily reflect current trends at all.

[MarkovChain]

You argue people should carry around 20 pieces of gear to reduce magic damage by 15%


Where did I say that ? Carrying 20 pieces of gear for 15% reduction is idiotic especially with cure 6. I think I'm actually saying the opposite. While it's a nice item to have because well it *can* save space (sometimes, assuming you actually NEED mdt/pdt to achieve what you want). It's not useful because whenever you would need it you can use alternative gear and be exactly as much efficient or even more efficient. Its ONLY benefit is to save inventory.

Two situation can happen

99% of the fights where the mobs cannot harm you even with zero pdt gear => useless obviously. Mages have infinity MP, the MP saved over time argument doesn't work. Taking 90 instead of 100 damage doesn't make you better at anything.

1% of the fight were stacking pdt is useful which can be for instance supertanking which is a super rare situation and which can be generally done with basic earth staff & co. One situation I can think of is PW while holding the lamps. For anything else cure 6 spam. You asked for "easy game" now you have it.

Now if we are back to the old FFXI where optimizing matters why not. Although technically cure6 is more useful outside than inside abyssea. This item is nothing but a trophy and for a long time. It will become useful when they uncap pdt/mdt .. maybe. How likely are we going to have shell 6 ? More magical/physical damage taken - ? PLD is the job that takes the least damage wether from magical or physical sources. PLD is useless as every one knows. Why would Defending ring all of a sudden become useful ?

[wish12oz]

Where did I say that ? Carrying 20 pieces of gear for 15% reduction is idiotic especially with cure 6.

You said it repeatedly in the post I linked to in my last comment to you. And it's exactly what I was pointing out to you. With an MDT set you lose 4 spaces and take 33.5% of magic damage (according to you) and you were championing resistance gear at 20++++ spaces of inventory to take 15% of magic damage. Which is completely not useful IMO. MDT set only. And the less gear required to cap MDT the better IMO. D ring is amazing, it's best in slot, best out of all options available based on what you lose to equip it compared to other slots. People who think it's useless are really bad at this game, nothing more needs to be said about it.



PLD is useless as every one knows. Why would Defending ring all of a sudden become useful ?

Because the ring is not for PLD. It's for jobs that require PDT to tank effectively sometimes. Or for melees who pull hate and aren't trying to tank to avoid dieing.



Now if we are back to the old FFXI where optimizing matters

Everything you post everywhere is all about optimizing everything, why are you arguing against it for this and saying D ring is useless?

[Raksha]

Almost everything from kings is now obsolete, they said they are making a belt stronger than BB. You think they won't add a defending ring +1 anyway?

They'd have to add two, actually.

But back on topic: My LS went 1/8 on behemoth tongue, and 1/8 on KB pop item. We also went 1/10 on wyrm beard and 1/8 on nidhogg pops, with 0/8 ridills.

My LS has pretty much given up on ks99/kings for the time being until SE fixes it.

[SNK]

Gotta love BG rejects doing statistics with 50 sample size. Also D ring is useless : Cure 6 etc. Anyone easily caps mdt/pdt if they want to.

Still mad that you got banned I see.

[Atomic_Skull]

... however, stupidly low drop rates are a terrible and boring way of sustaining gameplay

Highly effective though as B.F. Skinner and countless scientists since then have proven. Infrequent random rewards are much more effective at maintaining a behavior than a frequent predictable reward.

[MarkovChain]

You said it repeatedly in the post I linked to in my last comment to you. And it's exactly what I was pointing out to you. With an MDT set you lose 4 spaces and take 33.5% of magic damage (according to you) and you were championing resistance gear at 20++++ spaces of inventory to take 15% of magic damage.

I'd like to know how you can equip 20 piece of gear. This must be a troll secret. I don't know wtf you are talking about with -15% magic damage thing. Resistance build is nearly -100% damage taken not -15%. Look

full damage p=0.95
1/2 damage 0.0475* 1/2
1/4 damage 0.002375 *1/4
1/8 damage 0.000125 *1/4
=> on average you take 19.22% of the full damage. With shell V that is 14.56%. In other word a elemental reisist build would be equivalent to -61% magic damage taken. Contrary to what you claimed, it is done 6 pieces of gear only because there is this wonderfull spell called bar-

As a jackpot bonus your are immune to enfeebling spells to that element.

It's funny, it's almost as if BG is learning elemental sets in 2011.


Because the ring is not for PLD. It's for jobs that require PDT to tank effectively sometimes. Or for melees who pull hate and aren't trying to tank to avoid dieing.


If your melee pulls hate and aren't trying to tank maybe you should reconsider why you are bring them. I think you are too much in the 2004~ hnm mentality of fighting weak mobs like Fafnir. If you are doing it right you bring 2 healer 2 tanks (=DD) 1 BRD and 1 THF. At no point anyone but a tank can possibly pull hate. "Pulling hate" is an expression that refers to an FFXI era where people tanked with PLD in dynamis, and fought hnms with PLD, an era that you clearly seem to belong. You should use a time machine. There is no situational where, under the new FFXI (since 2006), a tank would require a D ring, nor a mage.

[Ravenmore]

You really thought they were going to give a higher drop rate then 5%. With a mob that pop once every 3 days. Now going with your numbers it would be mad to think one person would pop all of the KS99s. Take a whole LS poping as many KS99s as they can and you see how many HQs over the old system will be killed.

Your just mad that your have to compete with LS mates were you thought you could take just a couple of flunkies that wouldn't care that you got D.ring. 1/8 HQ pops is not that bad. I say its pretty nice. Just think how the HNMls felt when they beat 100 other people back in the day and got nothing but a BB item they were giving to thier mules if they couldn't find a buyer.

Just goes to show that everyone that was complaining how they would never get to fight these mobs never cared about fighting them just the drops.

[Arcon]

Highly effective though as B.F. Skinner and countless scientists since then have proven. Infrequent random rewards are much more effective at maintaining a behavior than a frequent predictable reward.

While that is true it also depends on the chance. If people don't see any reward at all, they get tired and give up. Dynamis is a good example of how to do it right. It found a nice balance of rewarding people (several AF a run), but not necessarily you. But since you could see others getting drops, and you knew you were rotating zones, you knew that you'd get an item eventually. Many people often went months without getting a single AF, sometimes to the point of frustration, yet when they did, it rekindled their hope in the system. They were happy and kept doing it. Then dreamlands Dynamis added onto that with HQ items, which weren't really any better, but a status symbol of high-end players who already got most of the things they needed from the old areas. Everyone had something to work on, everyone was happy.

Abyssea on the other hand is an example of how to do it wrong, and it fits perfectly in your scheme. When it was new, a challenge and people competing for drops, Abyssea thrived. Ever since people figured out the system, everything became predictable. People got annoyed when they didn't get anything in a single run, or even if they just got a little. They completely forgot how they sometimes waited months just to obtain anything. Even after years of playing and dubbing Dynamis "old content" it's still largely unfinished for most people. Abyssea on the other hand has several people clueless as to what to do, because they already have everything, despite being out for less than a year.

This new kings system is a different kind of mistake, it makes people lose hope completely. How many people do you think will do kings a week from now? No one, because everyone used up their seals. And why won't they farm new seals? Some may even try actually, and I predict they will give up quickly, because they see it going nowhere.


Just goes to show that everyone that was complaining how they would never get to fight these mobs never cared about fighting them just the drops.

You say that as if it's a bad thing. Of course I want the drops. And I don't know many people who just wanted to do the fight. At 75 maybe, but now, when even average players can lowman kings without much of a threat, that argument is moot.

Also, the chance of even fighting HQ kings is lower than it has ever been. I did my first ever HQ king fight by asking one of the LS present camping if I could join for the fight. Maybe that wouldn't have worked on Nidhogg, but apart from that there's not much a random person can screw up on. The new system makes it marginally easier for BB hunters (and only a certain subset of those people, worse for others), but apart from that I don't see anyone profiting from it.

[Octaviane]

"Regardless of all that i was thinking the idea was to actually help people get their BB items but now your basiclly only gonna get it from the ks99 which you could do already."

Exactly, I feel I will stand a better chance of finishing BB doing KS99's, plus I MIGHT get a pop item, which MIGHT pop an HQ, which MIGHT drop a BB item if the KS99 doesn't work. The odds are certainly 1000x higher than for those who would like Defending ring.

[Raksha]

You really thought they were going to give a higher drop rate then 5%. With a mob that pop once every 3 days. Now going with your numbers it would be mad to think one person would pop all of the KS99s. Take a whole LS poping as many KS99s as they can and you see how many HQs over the old system will be killed.

Your just mad that your have to compete with LS mates were you thought you could take just a couple of flunkies that wouldn't care that you got D.ring. 1/8 HQ pops is not that bad. I say its pretty nice. Just think how the HNMls felt when they beat 100 other people back in the day and got nothing but a BB item they were giving to thier mules if they couldn't find a buyer.

Just goes to show that everyone that was complaining how they would never get to fight these mobs never cared about fighting them just the drops.


I didn't camp kings before, and with these drop rates i'm not gonna do it now (unless it's an official LS event where I get compensation).

Your argument is flawed since NOW popping kings costs a limited resource.

you heard it here first folks, 800 kindred seals to pop a KB is 'not that bad'.

[wish12oz]

I'd like to know how you can equip 20 piece of gear. This must be a troll secret. I don't know wtf you are talking about with -15% magic damage thing. Resistance build is nearly -100% damage taken not -15%. Look

full damage p=0.95
1/2 damage 0.0475* 1/2
1/4 damage 0.002375 *1/4
1/8 damage 0.000125 *1/4
=> on average you take 19.22% of the full damage. With shell V that is 14.56%. In other word a elemental reisist build would be equivalent to -61% magic damage taken. Contrary to what you claimed, it is done 6 pieces of gear only because there is this wonderfull spell called bar-


So you're advocating that you can take 15% of total magic damage, and this is your math behind it. Well, lets say you have an MDT set and bar spells, that means you take 30% of the total damage according to your math. So you're advocating taking 15% less damage at the cost of carrying bar-element sets of gear.

You say it can be done with 6 pieces of gear? Ok, so how many elements are there? and its 6 pieces per element? that sounds like 20++++++ pieces of gear you are advocating people carry around.



It's funny, it's almost as if BG is learning elemental sets in 2011.

BG learned of resistance gear back in 2005 or so after people started killing Tiamat, you weren't there so I guess you wouldn't remember.
Obligatory me killing Tiamat in 2005 PS2 screenshot: http://s28.photobucket.com/albums/c243/r5n/?action=view&current=img000068.jpg



If your melee pulls hate and aren't trying to tank maybe you should reconsider why you are bring them. I think you are too much in the 2004~ hnm mentality of fighting weak mobs like Fafnir. If you are doing it right you bring 2 healer 2 tanks (=DD) 1 BRD and 1 THF. At no point anyone but a tank can possibly pull hate. "Pulling hate" is an expression that refers to an FFXI era where people tanked with PLD in dynamis, and fought hnms with PLD, an era that you clearly seem to belong. You should use a time machine. There is no situational where, under the new FFXI (since 2006), a tank would require a D ring, nor a mage.

Everything SE is adding to the game now is outside abyssea content. No more 4k HP or unlimited MP pools to default to when you're bad at the game, so that -10% damage taken ring will be pretty good. And if your melees are tanking, you better hope they have a good DT set for when they get caught with their pants down. Maybe next time you will read what people say before you reply with this nonesense, but then you still wear full usukane on your monk and think it's good, so it's not like your opinion on gear should even be taken seriously.

[MarkovChain]

So you're advocating that you can take 15% of total magic damage, and this is your math behind it. Well, lets say you have an MDT set and bar spells, that means you take 30% of the total damage according to your math. So you're advocating taking 15% less damage at the cost of carrying bar-element sets of gear.

You say it can be done with 6 pieces of gear? Ok, so how many elements are there? and its 6 pieces per element? that sounds like 20++++++ pieces of gear you are advocating people carry around.

This why you shouldn't argue with intelligent people. I didn't count barspell's mdb in my math. Therefore you shouldn't count 30% but 50% for your set, so try again.

Whatever you do mdt caps at 50% no matter what.



Everything SE is adding to the game now is outside abyssea content. No more 4k HP or unlimited MP pools to default to when you're bad at the game, so that -10% damage taken ring will be pretty good. And if your melees are tanking, you better hope they have a good DT set for when they get caught with their pants down. Maybe next time you will read what people say before you reply with this nonesense, but then you still wear full usukane on your monk and think it's good, so it's not like your opinion on gear should even be taken seriously.

Losing an argument and then procedding to use personnal attacks (aside from being compelete bullshit). Never did I claim full usu was better either, I think you are a little mad right now. Maybe you will post the links though.


And if your melees are tanking, you better hope they have a good DT set for when they get caught with their pants down

Now obligatory "give us examples" of concrete situations.



BG learned of resistance gear back in 2005 or so after people started killing Tiamat, you weren't there so I guess you wouldn't remember.
Obligatory me killing Tiamat in 2005 PS2 screenshot: http://s28.photobucket.com/albums/c2...=img000068.jpg

Yes I know that BG people form years ago knew it.

[SNK]

This why you shouldn't argue with intelligent people.

Shame that doesn't count for you. I mean afterall your ban should be up sometime this year I think since Isladar only hammered you for two years.

You are a real piece of work Pchan.

[Ravenmore]

When you see how many people have over 1k + seals doing nothing since all the drops for KS30 were outdated what else are you going to do with them. They are also not limited they didn't get removed from the game. Go out and farm them no different then farming items to sell on the AH. Still 800 seals between a whole 8 people is one orb per player. Hey guess there is a reason why every other forum see most of the posters here the way they do.

[Rorald]

too many off topic posts here, the thread isint a debate over dring ect being good or not.
The point to it is that its way to many ks to even get a shot at an HQ, I thought with the updates we have had in the past months that we were past things like this.

[Ravenmore]

Again what else would you use KS for. you can go right outside of WG and farm the KS. Though people can only see how many it would take them to solo a HQ. Hey who cares if the posters here don't bother with it less people spamming the ???.

[wish12oz]

This why you shouldn't argue with intelligent people. I didn't count barspell's mdb in my math. Therefore you shouldn't count 30% but 50% for your set, so try again.

Whatever you do mdt caps at 50% no matter what.


You said with just barspells you resist 40% of the damage from magic spells.
Add 50% MDT to that and you only take 30% of the damage from magic spells, I don't understand whats so hard about that for you to get.


Losing an argument and then procedding to use personnal attacks (aside from being compelete bullshit). Never did I claim full usu was better either, I think you are a little mad right now. Maybe you will post the links though.


I did not attack you, I just provided evidence for why your opinion on gear should not be taken seriously.
And I stated in my original post I am mad, 40k seals per d ring, and 2000 per king is way to much.


Now obligatory "give us examples" of concrete situations.

Let's say you're duoing Dragua, cause you know, real monks can do that without brews. And say someone tries to fight the shadow dragon thats right there, and wipes, right by your mages, and at that time, Dragua uses wing and you and your WHM get petrified. I bet you'd be glad you had some -damage taken gear then~



Yes I know that BG people form years ago knew it.

Yes we did know it, we also understand when it's useful, unlike bad players.
See this thread for what I mean:
http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/20707/dragua-strategy-as-mnk
The part where the person posts a video of Duoing Drague with his MNK+WHM and no MDT or Earth resist build is priceless.

[Raksha]

When you see how many people have over 1k + seals doing nothing since all the drops for KS30 were outdated what else are you going to do with them. They are also not limited they didn't get removed from the game. Go out and farm them no different then farming items to sell on the AH. Still 800 seals between a whole 8 people is one orb per player. Hey guess there is a reason why every other forum see most of the posters here the way they do.

If you're going to respond to me, i'd appreciate it if you'd quote my text so people who haven't read the entire thread will at least have some understanding of the discussion.


How long would It take you to farm 800 k.seals? Ok now multiply that by the shitty drop rate of d.ring and then you will see why people have a problem with this system.



Still 800 seals between a whole 8 people is one orb per player.


The point is that YOU PERSONALLY would have to spend 800 k.seals on average to get a HQ king pop. Dividing them up among eight playes isn't a solution since EACH PLAYER probably wants their own d.ring.

[rog]

How long would It take you to farm 800 k.seals? Ok now multiply that by the shitty drop rate of d.ring and then you will see why people have a problem with this system.
Bare minimum is 66.6 hours, since you can get one seal every 5 minutes. Realistically, it would be at least double to triple that, since they do not always drop right at 5 minutes, and if a beastman seal drops, you cannot get one for 5 minutes.

[MarkovChain]

You said with just barspells you resist 40% of the damage from magic spells.
Add 50% MDT to that and you only take 30% of the damage from magic spells, I don't understand whats so hard about that for you to get.

Nope, you can't read.

*Without accounting for any mdb you are stuck at 50% magic damage taken, while I'm at 14.56%.
*If you add y amount of mdt, you take 0.50/(1+y/100) and I take 0.1456/(1+y/100)

Therefore, mdb doesn't matter when you want to compare the two options because none of them offer mdb. Faceplam.



The part where the person posts a video of Duoing Drague with his MNK+WHM and no MDT or Earth resist build is priceless.
So when I ask you for a mob where defending ring would be useful, you link me to a video where a guy proves that you can kill dragua with ZERO defensive gear. LOL.

[Arcon]

It's one of the most useful defensive items in the game. It doesn't only reduce damage by 10%, that is only the worst case. The fact is, without a weapon/shield you can't cap PDT on most jobs (is there any job that can? I don't think so).

Let's assume you have -46% PDT without Defending Ring. Switch out a 6% Dark Ring for Defending ring, increase PDT reduction to 50%.

0.54/0.5 = 8% more reduced damage than before. And 46% is very generous, I don't know any job that can get that much. If it's an increase from 40% to 50%, you'd get 0.6/0.5 = 20% bonus damage reduced.

The question where that is useful depends on how you play. If you have MNK and a WHM mule, it probably doesn't (right now). If you solo things on THF or DNC, it can easily be the difference between life and death.

[rog]

It's one of the most useful defensive items in the game. It doesn't only reduce damage by 10%, that is only the worst case. The fact is, without a weapon/shield you can't cap PDT on most jobs (is there any job that can? I don't think so).
Mages can all cap pdt with earth staff, which is fine to use, since they do not really lose anything by using it.

Even without a staff though:

full +1 darksteel: 4+3+2+2+2=13%
twilight torque: 5%
dark ring x2: 12%
darkness earring x2: 4%
umbra cape: 6/12%

is 46% at night already, and louhi's mask takes that to 47%.

[MarkovChain]

0.54/0.5 = 8% more reduced damage than before..

No. The effectiveness of pdt doesn't depend on other gear. You are doing semantic. If a mob hits for 100, -5% pdt always means -5 damage. I don't care if going from 55 to 50 is -8%, it's not more efficient than 100->95.

[Greatguardian]

When you can cap PDT or MDT without a Dring, the only benefit you gain by having one is opportunity cost. Putting a Dring on instead of a 6/6 Dark ring means you can ditch 4% PDT and/or 4% MDT from other slots. That's it. Look at your own set to see how useful that is for you.

If it means keeping a reasonable X-hit in PDT gear because you could toss on another STP piece? Very useful. If it means you can use a nice offensive piece in place of a PDT/MDT piece? Useful. If you're keeping all of the same gear on anyways and just rocking -54% PDT/MDT? Useless unless you're also rocking Aegis or Burtgang. That's just how it is. Fortunately, any smart player should be in one of the first two situations anyways. There is absolutely no reason not to remove a 4% DT piece for other armor if you get a Dring.

As for killing Dragua on Mnk+Whm without MDT or Resist Gear, is it really that impressive? Heck, that's all I've been doing so I could save some inventory space. RR GH Apoc or RR VV Apoc, MNK/WAR + WHM/SCH and not sucking. Easy 5-10 min kill depending on how fed up I am with food being dispelled and how much I crammed my inventory with.

[rog]

No. The effectiveness of pdt doesn't depend on other gear. You are doing semantic. If a mob hits for 100, -5% pdt always means -5 damage. I don't care if going from 55 to 50 is -8%, it's not more efficient than 100->95.
It most certainly is.

[RaenRyong]

No. The effectiveness of pdt doesn't depend on other gear. You are doing semantic. If a mob hits for 100, -5% pdt always means -5 damage. I don't care if going from 55 to 50 is -8%, it's not more efficient than 100->95.

If you have 100 delay, 5% haste always means -5 delay. I don't care if going from 50% to 55% is +11.1%, it's not more efficient than 0=>5%.


So when I ask you for a mob where defending ring would be useful, you link me to a video where a guy proves that you can kill dragua with ZERO defensive gear. LOL.

You mean the same mob you claimed couldn't be killed without

a. /nin
b. earth resist gear
c. earth resist atma?

[Arcon]

No. The effectiveness of pdt doesn't depend on other gear. You are doing semantic. If a mob hits for 100, -5% pdt always means -5 damage. I don't care if going from 55 to 50 is -8%, it's not more efficient than 100->95.

Actually, it very much is, and that is my point. It reduces the same amount of damage, yes, but when you take 100 and reduce it by 5, you probably won't notice much of a difference (it means you can take 5% more damage). If, however, you only take 55 damage (due to other PDT gear) and reduce it by another 5 damage, you can take 10% more damage than before. It's because the reduction is the same as with the delay reduction from haste, where also more haste means higher benefits. To take an extreme example: pets and their 100% PDT can live infinitely long (on physical only mobs). The final reduction from 5% to 0% PDT is infinitely more efficient than the reduction from 100% to 95%. These are just extremes, but same point.

[MarkovChain]

If you have 100 delay, 5% haste always means -5 delay. I don't care if going from 50% to 55% is +11.1%, it's not more efficient than 0=>5%.

These are 2 different things. I'll try to explain it to you with simple words. More haste has increasing return on the dps. More pdt has NOT increasing returns on damage taken per second. Lol BG. Take my above exemple with a mob hitting for 100 every 10 seconds. 5% pdt always removes the same damage, aka 5, every 10 seconds. 5% haste doesn't always add the same amount of damage depending on your base haste. It adds a lot more damage if you have already 75% haste than if you have zero%. What's the difference ? Mobs always hit at the same speed regradless of your gear... Isn't this obvious ? I bet you are one of those pseudo-elistist posting in the newb haste threads too.





Actually, it very much is, and that is my point. It reduces the same amount of damage, yes, but when you take 100 and reduce it by 5, you probably won't notice much of a difference (it means you can take 5% more damage). If, however, you only take 55 damage (due to other PDT gear) and reduce it by another 5 damage, you can take 10% more damage than before. It's because the reduction is the same as with the delay reduction from haste, where also more haste means higher benefits. To take an extreme example: pets and their 100% PDT can live infinitely long (on physical only mobs). The final reduction from 5% to 0% PDT is infinitely more efficient than the reduction from 100% to 95%. These are just extremes, but same point.

Nope. If your pet takes 1 damage instead of 2 damage you indeed get 50% damage reduction, but your are nowhere clearly more efficient. It's still as broken and your pet can't die. With cure 6 and all the broken things that came with the level cap increase there is no point in reducing damage further when you are getting hit with less than 100 damage.

[rog]

These are 2 different things. I'll try to explain it to you with simple words. More haste has increasing return on the dps. More pdt has NOT increasing returns on damage taken per second. Lol BG.
Except it does. Subtracting a set number from a larger number has a lesser effect than subtracting it from a smaller number.

Subtraction is always increasing returns, and addition is always decreasing returns.

[MarkovChain]

You don't know what increasing returns means rog. What you are saying is that it has increasing returns on the % reduction of the damage you are taking, which is ALOT different than saying it has increasing returns on the global of amount of damage you are taking.

Extreme exemple

I'm at 1 damage taken per hit with 40% pdt and I equip defending ring. I'm now getting hit for zero. This equals to -100% damage taken. But I'm still taking -1 damage per second campared to 40% pdt.

I'm at 4 damage taken per hit with 0% pdt and I equip defending ring. I'm now getting hit for 3. This equals to -33% damage taken. But I'm still taking -1 damage per second campared to 0% pdt.

In both cases the aboslue damage taken is a constante increase (1 damg per second)

For haste it's different. Haste increases the amount of damage (not the %) dealt depending on you base haste :

If you deal 100 damage per second with zero% haste, adding 1% haste adds 1.01 damage per second

If you deal 100 damage per second with zero% haste, adding 50% haste adds 100 damage per second

If you deal 100 damage per second with zero% haste, adding 51% haste adds 104.08 damage per second

As you see pdt has constant returns on the global amount of damage taken per second, while haste as increasing returns. 1% hast can add between 1 and 4 damage depending on haste. 1% pdt always removes 1 dmg. It is THAT simple.

[rog]

You don't know what increasing returns means rog. What you are saying is that it has increasing returns on the % reduction of the damage you are taking, which is ALOT different than saying it has increasing returns on the global of amount of damage you are taking.

Extreme exemple

I'm at 1 damage taken per hit with 40% pdt and I equip defending ring. I'm now getting hit for zero. This equals to -100% damage taken. But I'm still taking -1 damage per second campared to 40% pdt.

I'm at 4 damage taken per hit with 0% pdt and I equip defending ring. I'm now getting hit for 3. This equals to -33% damage taken. But I'm still taking -1 damage per second campared to 0% pdt.

In both cases the aboslue damage taken is a constante increase (1 damg per second)

For haste it's different. Haste increases the amount of damage (not the %) dealt depending on you base haste :

If you deal 100 damage per second with zero% haste, adding 1% haste adds 1.01 damage per second

If you deal 100 damage per second with zero% haste, adding 50% haste adds 100 damage per second

If you deal 100 damage per second with zero% haste, adding 51% haste adds 104.08 damage per second

As you see pdt as constant return on the global amount of damage taken per second, while haste as increasing returns. 1% hast can add between 1 and 4 damage depending on haste. 1% pdt always removes 1 dmg.
With 0% pdt i take 1000 damage per second.

with 1% pdt i take 990 per second (1% less than with 0%).

With 99% pdt i take 10 damage per second.

With 100% pdt, i take 0 damage per second (INFINITY GODDAMN PERCENT less than with 99%).

Increasing returns. QED.

[Greatguardian]

So guys, does Double Attack have static or decreasing returns?

While we're at it, is Adaman Hauberk Blue or Purple?

[MarkovChain]

With 0% pdt i take 1000 damage per second.

with 1% pdt i take 990 per second (1% less than with 0%).

With 99% pdt i take 10 damage per second.

With 100% pdt, i take 0 damage per second (INFINITY GODDAMN PERCENT less than with 99%).

Increasing returns. QED.

Each time you add 1% pdt you decrease the same amount. It's called "constant" return. www

[rog]

Each time you add 1% pdt you decrease the same amount. It's called "constant" return. www
Each time you add 1% haste you decrease delay by the same amount.

Going from 98->99% haste doubles damage.

Going from 98->99% pdt halves damage taken.

Not sure how they are not exactly the same.

[MarkovChain]

Each time you add 1% haste you decrease delay by the same amount.

Going from 98->99% haste doubles damage.

Going from 98->99% pdt halves damage taken.

Not sure how they are not exactly the same.

Correct. It's seems you are progressively understanding what we are talking about. Haste has constant returns on delay but increasing returns on damage per second. Final Fantasy 101.

[rog]

Correct. It's seems you are progressively understanding what we are talking about. Haste has constant returns on delay but increasing returns on damage per second. Final Fantasy 101.
Right, same thing with -dt%.


Pchan, if i take 20 damage per second with X pdt, but 10 damage per second with Y pdt, can you solve for x and y? If you can, what is x and y? If not, why not?

[rog]

So guys, does Double Attack have static or decreasing returns?

While we're at it, is Adaman Hauberk Blue or Purple?Decreasing.

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll220/ffxiRog/ultramarine.jpg

[Arcon]

You don't know what increasing returns means rog. What you are saying is that it has increasing returns on the % reduction of the damage you are taking, which is ALOT different than saying it has increasing returns on the global of amount of damage you are taking.

Extreme exemple

I'm at 1 damage taken per hit with 40% pdt and I equip defending ring. I'm now getting hit for zero. This equals to -100% damage taken. But I'm still taking -1 damage per second campared to 40% pdt.

I'm at 4 damage taken per hit with 0% pdt and I equip defending ring. I'm now getting hit for 3. This equals to -33% damage taken. But I'm still taking -1 damage per second campared to 0% pdt.

In both cases the aboslue damage taken is a constante increase (1 damg per second)

For haste it's different. Haste increases the amount of damage (not the %) dealt depending on you base haste :

If you deal 100 damage per second with zero% haste, adding 1% haste adds 1.01 damage per second

If you deal 100 damage per second with zero% haste, adding 50% haste adds 100 damage per second

If you deal 100 damage per second with zero% haste, adding 51% haste adds 104.08 damage per second

As you see pdt has constant returns on the global amount of damage taken per second, while haste as increasing returns. 1% hast can add between 1 and 4 damage depending on haste. 1% pdt always removes 1 dmg. It is THAT simple.

That's true, and you still got it wrong. It is exactly the same as Haste. It increases your survival time for the same percentual value that Haste decreases your kill time. The reason they seem different is because they behave invertly. Where the kill time approaches zero, survival time approaches infinity. The effect they're having behaves exactly the same though.

50% Haste = half the kill time, shortened by a factor of 2
50% PDT = twice the survival time, increased by a factor of 2
67% Haste = third the kill time, shortened by a factor of 3
67% PDT = triple the survival time, increased by a factor of 3
75% Haste = quarter the kill time, shortened by a factor of 4
75% PDT = quadruple the survival time, increased by a factor of 4

Et cetera.

Edit:

While we're at it, is Adaman Hauberk Blue or Purple?

Blurple.

[RaenRyong]

Everything has constant returns because adding one always adds one. FFXI math, simplified - the pchan way.

[MarkovChain]

Nope, haste has no constant return, which you have yet to understand.

[MarkovChain]

That's true, and you still got it wrong. It is exactly the same as Haste. It increases your survival time for the same percentual value that Haste decreases your kill time. The reason they seem different is because they behave invertly. Where the kill time approaches zero, survival time approaches infinity. The effect they're having behaves exactly the same though.

50% Haste = half the kill time, shortened by a factor of 2
50% PDT = twice the survival time, increased by a factor of 2
67% Haste = third the kill time, shortened by a factor of 3
67% PDT = triple the survival time, increased by a factor of 3
75% Haste = quarter the kill time, shortened by a factor of 4
75% PDT = quadruple the survival time, increased by a factor of 4

Et cetera.

Edit:


Blurple.

Your survival time is correct. PDT has increasing return on survival time. At least that would be the case if you had noone to cure you. Check my first post : cure VI compeltely defeats the purpose of this ring.

[rog]

Nope, haste has no constant return, which you have yet to understand.
Yes it does. 1% haste always reduces delay by the same amount, regardless of how much you have.

[rog]

Your survival time is correct. PDT has increasing return on survival time. At least that would be the case if you had noone to cure you. Check my first post : cure VI compeltely defeats the purpose of this ring.
Oh, ok, as long as you can admit you were wrong.

[Raksha]

Yes it does. 1% haste always reduces delay by the same amount, regardless of how much you have.

You guys are talking past each other, maybe it's best to clarify your terms.

Haste has constant returns because (given a base delay of 1000, for instance) 1% haste will always return -10 delay.

When pchan says that haste has increasing returns, he is referring to returns in DoT, not returns in -delay. His position would best be described as Increasing Utility (wikipedia it).

You guys are basically arguing semantics, and since the point of this thread is kings drop rates, I suspect this'll get locked soon.

tl;dr inb4 the lock

[MarkovChain]

Rog is not the brightest person, I already expalined him this twice. Constant return on delay, increasing of dps.

[RaenRyong]

pdt has constant return on damage reduced per point, increasing on survival. Cures ruin that? WSs(yes I know WS frequency is influenced by Haste before you say) / downtime / etc all reduce Haste's effect too.

[wish12oz]

Nope, you can't read.

*Without accounting for any mdb you are stuck at 50% magic damage taken, while I'm at 14.56%.
*If you add y amount of mdt, you take 0.50/(1+y/100) and I take 0.1456/(1+y/100)

Therefore, mdb doesn't matter when you want to compare the two options because none of them offer mdb. Faceplam.


I'm not talking about MDB, I'm talking about how you said bar-element spells reduce the damage you take by resisting spells of that element.

You said barspells reduce damage taken by 40% because they make you resist them.

Add 50% MDT to the fact you can resist 40% of the damage you take because of barspells making you resist the spells, and you end up taking just over 30% of the original damage of that element.

You are arguing that carrying 20++++ pieces of gear and using barspells so you can resist every element and take 15% of the total damage is better then carrying 4 pieces of gear that would cap your MDT while using barspells to resist the spells reducing damage taken to 30%, and I am saying it is not required, and just an MDT set is good enough and there is no reason to waste 20+++ inventory slots.

I still don't understand why you are talking about MDB at all, we're talking about how barspells combined with MDT sets are better then carrying 6 pieces of gear for every element.


So when I ask you for a mob where defending ring would be useful, you link me to a video where a guy proves that you can kill dragua with ZERO defensive gear. LOL.

I posted that thread because in it you argued that you had to use NIN sub, earth resist gear and earth resist atmas to win, and you were proven completely wrong. You really think that fight wouldn't of been easier with a PDT and MDT set?

I also gave an example of something that could happen (and did happen to me, except I wasn't soloing) to make a PDT set worthwhile.

PDT/MDT sets are for situations when things go wrong, you seem to be misunderstanding this aspect. This can happen with a great many number of mobs.

Bennu for instance, right down the way from dragua, lets say you're fighting it and the BLM is having difficulty getting grellow to proc, ends up pulling hate for a split second between one your tanks attack rounds. Mob moves ever so slightly, and dread wings, hitting the healers and you, then turns and starts hitting your tank again (from behind no less) A PDT set would be useful here.

Briarius does a 1111 mercurial strike then colossal slams 3 times, and you cant be cured, PDT set is useful.

Carabosse does dispelga/stunga then casts tornado 2 on you, MDT set is useful.

Glavoid does disgorge again before your stunners stun is back up.

Tunga dispels all your buffs then breakga's your mages and you.

Abyssea Omega (pankrator? is that its name?) uses hundred fists a lot, PDT set = useful.

I can could go on, but I think everyone other then you gets it.

[Greatguardian]

I agree in principle, but feel obligated to point out that no one should realistically ever get hit with Bri's 3 Slams. Better me pointing it out than Pchan making a 2-page long reply about it, especially considering he's made references to Bri requiring a party of 6 in previous posts and gotten slammed for it.

[wish12oz]

I agree in principle, but feel obligated to point out that no one should realistically ever get hit with Bri's 3 Slams. Better me pointing it out than Pchan making a 2-page long reply about it, especially considering he's made references to Bri requiring a party of 6 in previous posts and gotten slammed for it.

Taking merc strike then 1 slam is perfectly reasonable, and about 2k worth of damage, if not more, kiting away the second 2 wouldn't be a problem, but you still cant be cured for a bit, and while its acc is terrible, it could still hit you.

[Greatguardian]

Taking merc strike then 1 slam is perfectly reasonable, and about 2k worth of damage, if not more, kiting away the second 2 wouldn't be a problem, but you still cant be cured for a bit, and while its acc is terrible, it could still hit you.

Eh, I guess if you're dualboxing or something maybe. I don't think I've ever been hit with the first slam unless I'm totally reading BG or these forums during the fight and don't even see the 1111, haha. There's such a huge charge time and the range is only 15', I'm usually at 25' or so and turning around to wait for Bri so I don't disengage before he starts running for the second slam.

Then again I'm on Bri Empyrean #3 at this point so the whole fight is just kinda automatic now.

[MarkovChain]

considering he's made references to Bri requiring a party of 6 in previous posts and gotten slammed for it.

I never said that, please link us.

[MarkovChain]

Add 50% MDT to the fact you can resist 40% of the damage you take because of barspells making you resist the spells, and you end up taking just over 30% of the original damage of that element.

Are you saying you can resist with just barspells ? YOU DON'T. If so I'll suggest to go back to reading the magic evasion pages on the wiki (written my me) to learn what resisting a spell means. With 120-130 you resist nothing. You will need AT LEAST a brd with double carols or/and an atma. Other that that I don't understand anything you are saying.


Capping mdt gear makes you go from -27% mdt to -50% mdt so -23% mdt equivalent.
capping elemental resists makes you go from -27% mdt to -27% mdt plus 95% resist rate so If you followed the maths I mad on my post #41 it is equivalent to going from -27% mdt to 14.56% which is equivalent to -61% mdt. Nevermind the fact that you take less than 50 damage on 80% of the spells, that you systematically resist all enfeeblings of that element.




Bennu for instance

Wat. I'll just give you two way to fight it safely

* Cure 6
* earth staff

inebefore : but you lose TP and it makes you kill 10 seconds slower. HAHAHAHA.




Briarius does a 1111 mercurial strike then colossal slams 3 times, and you cant be cured, PDT set is useful.

stun.




Carabosse does dispelga/stunga then casts tornado 2 on you, MDT set is useful.


Farm 8 set and brew them, it's faster and better




Glavoid does disgorge again before your stunners stun is back up.


It's not magical nor physical damage



Tunga dispels all your buffs then breakga's your mages and you.


Recast barspells.. seriously. Or let a mage out of range ? That's how I do but hey who care it will only last the time I'll need the drops then basta. And thanks for pointing out yet another a mob where earth resist = win.




Abyssea Omega (pankrator? is that its name?) uses hundred fists a lot, PDT set = useful.

I can could go on, but I think everyone other then you gets it.

Dodge.

It's funny how you went from "no you're wrong defending ring is useful" to "no, you're wrong mdt gear useful" to "no you wrong pdt gear is useful". I already said that you can cap all of them without D.ring. You failed to prove us how DEFENDING is going to make a difference in all the above exemples, just saying.


And a last word, all your exemple inside of abyssea are irrelevant. Brew is no cheat, it's normal, SE made mobs so that you would brew them. Stop trying to min/max anything inside abyssea.

[Linh]

Just so I understand this right....

Is the Savory Shank a 100% drop?

[wish12oz]

Are you saying you can resist with just barspells ? YOU DON'T.

Actually..... You said that, not me.



4) On an IT mobs at 90, 300-330 ish is required to cap. Therefore 210-240 is only required to resist 50% of the time which in essence means that :
* barspell from a WHM (~150 ?)
* addle (30 ?)
* int from cruor above ~90 (30 ?)
is already enough to resist ~50%-70% of the time. Let's say you need those 210 meva for 50% rate. The mob's landing rate is therefore p=0.5 (50%) and you take
full damage : p=0.5=50% of the time
1/2 damage : p*(1-p) of the time
1/4 damage : p*(1-p)^2 of the time
1/8 damage : (1-p)^3 of the time
When you sum up it works as if you take 67% of the maximum damage, which you pair with shell5 for about -25% which ends up being equivalent to : 50% mdt.


Why are you trying to argue against some stuff you already said?
You clearly said you could resist spells a large portion of the time with barspells as the only elemental resistance you have.



If so I'll suggest to go back to reading the magic evasion pages on the wiki (written my me)

Maybe you should go read it so you can keep your story straight.



inebefore : but you lose TP and it makes you kill 10 seconds slower. HAHAHAHA.

Why lose TP when you don't have to?
Also: you are the one arguing that you should give up a DD atma for a resistance atma, thus lowering your kill speed much more then swapping to an earth staff, why is the thought of killing 10 seconds slower suddenly funny to you? Or am I understanding this incorrectly, and what you are trying to say is that killing slow is ok, because efficiency is a bad thing.


It's funny how you went from "no you're wrong defending ring is useful" to "no, you're wrong mdt gear useful" to "no you wrong pdt gear is useful".

I fail to see how giving examples to show both aspects of the item as being useful is somehow a bad thing. If this is to complex for you let me know, I'll try to dumb it down in the future.


And a last word, all your exemple inside of abyssea are irrelevant.

They are all perfectly valid examples of things that have happened to me while I was playing FFXI (except getting hit with 3x colossal slam, I usually range the first and always the second two, but then I always main tank and main heal, so getting hit by a colossal slam after a 1111 merc strike isn't uncommon when I'm on my WHM and not my NIN when it's used.) How does that make any of them irrelevant? Because you can't deal with the fact that you are wrong?

Now, quit making off topic comments in the thread, you know you're wrong, just let it go.


Just so I understand this right....

Is the Savory Shank a 100% drop?

The pop item for NQ Behemoth from the KS99 is 100%, the pop item for King Behemoth from NQ Behemoth is 5% or so.

[Linh]

Savory Shank 5%

*face palm*

[wish12oz]

Savory Shank 5%

*face palm*

ya, it's terrible, it's why I made this thread!

20 KS 99's per King is ridiculous!
In the entire time I've been playing since NA PC Launch, I have acquired enough kindred seals to get 1.5 King pops. How is this even remotely acceptable?

[MarkovChain]

Actually..... You said that, not me.




You can't read what's being discussed. You link to a discussion where a guy asked if mix and match mdt/ earth resist was better than pure earth resist, hence why part of the damage is being resisted. If you actually read what I said, which you clearly did NOT, you'll noticed that "barspell from a PIMP whm + cruor buff + adle" puts exaclty at floor resist rate at which point anything on gear/atma/carol contribute to resisting. So yeah, there is no way you resist anything while wearing ZERO resist gear or atma or carols .



Why lose TP when you don't have to?
Also: you are the one arguing that you should give up a DD atma for a resistance atma, thus lowering your kill speed much more then swapping to an earth staff, why is the thought of killing 10 seconds slower suddenly funny to you? Or am I understanding this incorrectly, and what you are trying to say is that killing slow is ok, because efficiency is a bad thing.

I think you are new to the game because there is abosultely nothing that you DD inside abyssea beside low tier NQ mob that die before you get 100 TP. Almost every NM is done by gimping yourself procing it with weak weapons and weak spells, weak weapon skill and such. Giving up "DD" atma on a mob like tunga is lol at best. You spent 5 minutes procing it while turning your back and then bam it procs, two ws later it's dead. Because 15% TA rate does SO MUCH when you are facing away from the mob. Jesus.

[wish12oz]

If you actually read what I said, you'll noticed that "barspell from a PIMP whm + cruor buff + adle" puts exaclty at floor resist rate [/B].

So it can be done? COOL!
Now quit arguing against yourself.


I think you are new to the game because there is abosultely nothing that you DD inside abyssea beside low tier NQ mob that die before you get 100 TP.

You're just doing it wrong. I DD everything.

[MarkovChain]

So it can be done? COOL!
Now quit arguing against yourself.

Floors means 5% so I'm not sure what you r" It can be done means" ... It means the in the best scenario you don't resist anything because your magic eva is to low. Which means that you are wrong obviously.



You're just doing it wrong. I DD everything.


Even when perma slowed and perma stoned on tunga ? ww

[wish12oz]

Floors means 5% so I'm not sure what you r" It can be done means" ... It means the in the best scenario you don't resist anything because your magic eva is to low. Which means that you are wrong obviously


I don't know how I am wrong when all I am doing is quoting what you said, which is that with barspells, cruor buffs and maybe addle you get the following result:

"When you sum up it works as if you take 67% of the maximum damage, which you pair with shell5 for about -25% which ends up being equivalent to : 50% mdt."

How is that a 5% resist rate? and why are you changing your answer to 5 now?

And I haven't fought tunga trying to proc red since level 85, I'm sure its a lot easier now.

[Akujima]

For once I will actually agree with this OP lol...

If they wanted to make King's "easier" so to speak, they should have just lowered the spawn timer in half for all of them. And if people would still hate that because they don't like to claim NM's, then just fix the drop rates for the BCNM.

SE has whacky views on how to patch up old content, now that 99% of Abyssea gear totally blows everything else out of the water. Not to mention there's still 10 Lv's to go, and Defending Ring might just have a superior clone by then.

[SNK]

I'll try to explain it to you with simple words.

No matter how much you try and argue Pchan, you're not as smart as you think you are. That small little island where you feel like you're never wrong keeps getting smaller and smaller each time the tide that's your mouth keeps coming in.

[Ragmar]

This week my LS did 3 KS99 Behemoth and 7 KS99 Wyrm. We were lucky on the BC and got 2 tongues as well as the HQ pop item from the NM 1/3. With Wyrm we got 1 Beard but 0/7 on HQ pop/Ridill from Fafnir. I am astounded at the terrible drop rate of the HQ pop item as it should have been around 20-25%. BB items are now made more rare by the NQ NM no longer dropping it and the 5% chance you get the HQ pop item it is no longer 100%. Mix all this with the lack of availability to even obtain KS's SE has really dropped the ball on this one. I hated the old system because of the bots that were used to monopolize it but damn ... this is not the answer. I had 10 75's pre abyssea and solo'd more exp than most could stand. After years of KS30's Im left with 500 ish KS's. In other words I will likely never see another Nidhogg or Aspid and will have only one more chance to kill KB.

[Rorald]

would be nice if we could get some feedback on this issue.

[Ravenmore]

What is with all this lack of gaining KSs, did they remove them from the birds right outside of white gate. Exp parties were never the best way to get seals. Its easier now seeing how you can do it with you social LS and not suck up to some HNM LS leader and hope you get the scraps.

[Bhujerba]

the potential of poped kings were a better idea than the old way, assuming good drop rate which is what most ppl and me were hoping for, but it turns out the opposite, they manage to make the new feature actually worse...meh

I guess they should increase the drop rate, but I don't think they are going to do that anytime soon until they implement the "seals exchange" feature to see how it will play out.

[wish12oz]

What is with all this lack of gaining KSs, did they remove them from the birds right outside of white gate. Exp parties were never the best way to get seals. Its easier now seeing how you can do it with you social LS and not suck up to some HNM LS leader and hope you get the scraps.

You actually can't do it with your social LS because the drop rates are to low.
You need 20 pops to get a king on average, how long is it going to take you to farm up 2000 KS on those birds?

[Bumbeen]

Just buy orbs

[Ravenmore]

Easy if you use the 3 man alli with one person lotting the seals for the LS. Also not everyone wants one. only thing thats its good for is -magical dmg which with a whm with cap shellra is not worth the effort. If the mob cast magic thats you think the ring would do anything you would take a whm, throw in a sch/rdm rdm/sch phy dmg taken care of too. Its not a must have its more of a toy. When there were reports of 3 or so droping in a year you really think SE would have increased its drop rate.