Pet, Wyvern and Automaton may become invincible under certain circumstances.

[Gotterdammerung]

This sounds like it might be a nerf of the 100% pet phys dmg taken minus atma+ gear+ JT Beastmaster combination. If it is i would like to ask you to please reconsider.

Here are my reasons.


#1 It doesn't take a good geared bst very long to solo these NM's so i dont know why people feel the need to act like its an eternity. Most fights take 10-15 minutes some harder ones take 30 and like 1 or 2 take an hour. Also this logic, that because u can do these nms in 10-15 minutes then you are getting your stuff faster, is kinda flawed. Even if it takes me an hour to kill sumthin, i can be 100% through with that NM in a few hours worth of play. Most groups and shells wont complete everyones needs from an NM in just a few hours. I dont get my pace slowed down because sumone doesnt show up. I dont get slowed down by having to fight sumthing i dont need anything from. You might be able to kill stuff faster but in the end, im getting stuff faster.

#2 BST will never stop soloing stuff. We will always find a way to do it. I don't think that the people who asked for this nerf realized that taking away things like this just forces us to use more resources towards defense and less towards offense. They might be asking for a nerf because they dont like waiting for us to finish a solo, but by asking for it all they have done is ensure they will be waiting even longer than before.

#3 This was never much of an exploit. We have always had to play by the rules of "our pet is a monster." there are times when this has helped us and times when it has hindered us. The pdt and mdt cap is a player cap not a monster cap. If we have to deal with the downsides of our pet being a monster and not a player, then what is wrong with reaping the benefits of this state.

For those of you who are completely lost here is some examples of monster rules applied to bst pets that hinder play.
A. Can not be the target of non offensive player spells and JA's. (Trick attack, cure, collaborator, warcry, ect ect big list.)
B. Monster AI that causes pet to switch targets uncontrollably based on current hate (this leads to uncontrollably losing claim, wich leads to a stolen target).

And here is examples of this being a benefit
A. Monsters dont share player caps. No cap for crit, haste, all that stuff players normally have caps for.
B. Monsters have some extra traits from there families.

If you want to take away the best benefit of our pets being a monster then its only right we get the downsides taken away as well.

#4 Bst is designed to solo. Its natural for us to be able to handle what normally takes multiple players. The trade off has always been, it takes a little longer and there is less added benefits from things like TH (and now !! triggers). Right now a whm + any DD can duo everything a bst can solo, and probably more. And they have a higher chance of benefitting from the !!'s. I guess i dont see the real threat of letting bst keep this.

#5 People hate us. Asking the community of players about what should be done to BST for updates is like putting the fate of all african americans in the hands of the klu klux klan. Bst has been a hated job from day 1. We are in direct competition with the rest of the player base and always have been. In MANY players minds Beastmaster and "Normy" jobs are ENEMIES. We fought for camps. What was exp mobs to a party was "pets" and "prey" to a bst. You don't know how many times i have fought against parties, linkshells, low man groups for pets, prey, and NMs. And everytime it was a full fledge war complete with hatred and spite on both sides.

To sum up this last reason, i dont think its fair to let my enemy decide my fate.

[Arcon]

If you want to take away the one benefit of our pet being a monster then its only right we get the downsides taken away as well.

I really wish you would have posted in the other thread. Those are first actual arguments I hear against this nerf. I don't agree with 100% PDT reduction, I do think that should be removed. I believe what you're saying here has more merit, and it should be considered, especially point B (losing claim due to a weird game mechanic is a bug in my eyes and should be fixed regardless).


#4 Bst is designed to solo. Its natural for us to be able to handle what normally takes multiple players. The trade off has always been, it takes a little longer and there is less added benefits from things like TH (and now !! triggers). Right now a whm + any DD can duo everything a bst can solo, and probably more. And they have a higher chance of benefitting from the !!'s.

I especially agree with this, and it was something I also posted in the other thread: BST has always excelled at doing things with less people, but in return having a challenge and taking up more time, along with some other concessions (my example was Hakutaku). And I don't think that should be taken away. I do, however, consider 100% PDT reduction a design flaw. While yes, there are occasional mobs that are completely immune to physical or magical damage, those are rare exceptions and built around that fact, which require players to develop their own strategy. However, making any pet of one's choosing completely immune to certain kinds of damage is an exploit imo (it obviously wasn't the way SE intended it, or they wouldn't be changing it) and breaks certain aspects of the game (like killing a high level monster with as much effort as hitting the Fight-button).


To sum up this last reason, i dont think its fair to let my enemy decide my fate.

Honestly, I'm not sure I can really agree with this. I don't think BST hatred is as far perpetuated through the FFXI community as some people make it out to be, at least not recently. The only reason I know of why people hated BSTs was because they messed with their parties. Also, people found leveling BST was a very tedious and complex process, since partying was frowned upon (although I don't think anyone still believes the shared EXP theory) and most people didn't have the patience to solo.

In fact, most people I know like BSTs and especially because of their usefulness ask them to help with things. Also, most BST happen to be rather competent players (I know you are, you're also the first -100% PDT BST I've ever seen, I remember that La Theine party), I guess it's one of those jobs that requires skill to pull off, and not everyone can do it, so most people give up on it. But I don't anyone these days who ever spoke ill of BSTs.

So I don't know if that's true. Also, even if it was, I don't know if SE would listen to those people. Look at how many people complain about WAR benig overpowered (even on the WAR forums), yet SE increased the critical hit damage cap. The reasons for this nerf are justified imo, and while I really don't wanna criticize your achievement, I think it's the right thing to do. As you pointed out, there are other things SE can (and should) do to make up for it.

[Gotterdammerung]

I suppose it would be better to look at wat this 100% pdt actually accomplishes on a case by case basis in order to point out how its not broken.

Against normal EP-IT mobs. Only uses would be to pull them all together. This can be accomplished just as easily with several other jobs. Pld, blu, rdm, thf. Id also like to add that once pulled together pld can cataclysm, blue can charged whisker, and thf can aoelian edge causing all these mobs to quickly die. However bst can not kill these mobs at a fast rate and therefore has little reason to use pdt 100% for pulling. Also all the aforementioned jobs benefit from subbing rdm and can therefore quickly pull these mobs together even if they are not linking monsters whereas a bst is limited to pulling linking monsters for this to be viable.

Against small NMs- Bst can use this to trounce run of the mill small nms. But run of the mill small NMs can already be trounced easily by almost every job. Bst isnt the only soloist who can work on this lvl. I have seen even monks smite down NMs of this caliber with no support. These types of NMs are supposed to be trounced.

Against large NMs- These solo's can be actually very challenging despite having 100% pdt. Many of these NMs have frequent and potent spell or magic TP spams. A lot of them have poison or bio aura's. Added elemental dmg to atks. Some of them outright ignore the PDT like resheph who will kill your pet anyway. Some of them have constant petrification that renders ur source of dmg useless. Some of them kill your pet with a stare. You would be surprised how much effort actually goes into soloing these NMs. And how many of these NMs are still unsoloable in spite of 100% pdt. Comparing this to other low man job combos, what is a challenging bst solo is actually a semi-afk breeze to a mnk + whm. Not to mention they kill the target 2 times faster, they dont have to spend any time collecting the proper gear, they dont have to spend a large amount of money to fuel there Job abilities to accomplish this.



"As you pointed out, there are other things SE can (and should) do to make up for it. "

Yeh but the problem is they are going to take away this and not make up for that.

[Runespider]

The fixed it on SMN, you didn't see it coming for other jobs?

They either missed it, thought they would let those jobs play with it a little longer or had no dev time to actually work on or had some complexities to fixing it before.

You knew it was broke, you knew it was coming, stop complaining about a obvious bug. Really -100% physical damage taken and a 4-5 mins replacable pet and your shocked it's being fixed? I don't care how "disabled" you try to make out a job is, none deserve that kind of overpowered playability. If Paladin could get full time -100% and/or fan dance never wore there could be an argument but as it is, no way.

Also they already buffed the hell out of bst, those new jugpets are monsters compared to what I used to have to use years ago.

[GlobalVariable]

Changing it won't be a problem at all if they don't cut it down so far as to make it completely pointless to have. Players have other options besides evasion and -dt for damage mitigation like shadows, I don't think its fair to cap it all the way down to 50 like Ilax demanded under those circumstances. If -dt gets adjusted to far in the other direction, all we'll have is evasion and regen to keep a pet's hp afloat till the next heal.

[Gotterdammerung]

The fixed it on SMN, you didn't see it coming for other jobs?

They either missed it, thought they would let those jobs play with it a little longer or had no dev time to actually work on or had some complexities to fixing it before.

You knew it was broke, you knew it was coming, stop complaining about a obvious bug. Really -100% physical damage taken and a 4-5 mins replacable pet and your shocked it's being fixed? I don't care how "disabled" you try to make out a job is, none deserve that kind of overpowered playability. If Paladin could get full time -100% and/or fan dance never wore there could be an argument but as it is, no way.

Also they already buffed the hell out of bst, those new jugpets are monsters compared to what I used to have to use years ago.

Bad example, even if they did give pld 100% immunity they still wouldnt be back. There problem has nothing to do with damage mitigation and everything to do with the lack of need for dmg mitigation.

Jug pet boost is also a bad example. That boost was given to counteract the loss of charm.

And ive already explained why its not broke.

And smn is not bst. There not even close to the same. Summons have a natural 50% DT that was combining with ducal's DT for 100% and it was activating at 100% pet hp. There also not designed as soloists.


Seems like your against it just because most other jobs cant do it. Kind of wierd stance in a game where diff jobs do diff things.

[Aldersyde]

The fixed it on SMN, you didn't see it coming for other jobs?

They either missed it, thought they would let those jobs play with it a little longer or had no dev time to actually work on or had some complexities to fixing it before.

You knew it was broke, you knew it was coming, stop complaining about a obvious bug. Really -100% physical damage taken and a 4-5 mins replacable pet and your shocked it's being fixed?

Actually, when smn was fixed every bst that was in the know on DG expected it to be fixed on jug pets, you could see it on other forums. So ya, bsts expected it was going to fixed. When it wasn't, bsts assumed that it was working as intended and why not? It's not unreasonable for players to believe that devs know their own damn game. As I said in the other thread, if it wasn't working right for one pet job, the possibility certainly existed for it to be broken on all pet jobs. It's just plain incompetence that it this wasn't caught back then. I certainly thought it was going to be fixed because I was thinking to myself "Damn, I never even got to play with it once."

Me? Personally, I'm still waiting for an explanation on why mobs that can be charmed in other zones can't be charmed in Abyssea since the other thread was locked. I'm not interested in other poster's speculations. I want a statement from SE explaining their rationale behind this decision to lock bsts out from their primary job ability. I personally like jugpets better for snarl and ready but no other job in Abyssea gets screwed out of their JAs like bst does. So what's the dealio SE?

[Ilax]

Changing it won't be a problem at all if they don't cut it down so far as to make it completely pointless to have. Players have other options besides evasion and -dt for damage mitigation like shadows, I don't think its fair to cap it all the way down to 50 like Ilax demanded under those circumstances. If -dt gets adjusted to far in the other direction, all we'll have is evasion and regen to keep a pet's hp afloat till the next heal.

Yes my first post (OP) said -50% pdt because i was not really happy when i did the post, but if you read on all my other post, i keep saying 80, 85, 87.5 even 95% would be acceptable.

I just hope DEV wont be like you GlobalVariable and get stuck on my first POST and nerf it to -50%, because i am sure 99% community (Including me) say this: If BST PET return to -50% PDT, the job will turn totally useless and broken at the point to not play it anymore.

No i am not a BST hater, hope you gonna get over it someday.

[HFX7686]

I don't see the point of having near invincible pets if you can't stagger anything anyway or have TH. You're going to have really long fights and just get zero drops. Why not make some friends and bring a small team and stagger the mobs as well? You can still play BST and use jug pets in a party...

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Point one we do have some triggers.

Point two they are NOT really long fights, stop confusing BST with THF or even DNC.

[Malamasala]

I'm still mad SE fixes these things in 1-4 week spans of getting attention... but things that prevent us from enjoying the jobs are ignored forever.

Puppet cure fix? Spirit assault fix? Charm fix? Where are they? Stop ignoring pet jobs for everything but nerfs.

[Vold]

In before this inevitable lock like the last thread:

Just to point out on my previous posts on this matter I managed to forget that 100% PDT through atmas is probably not intended simply because haste atma does not stack. Having a serious problem with people who whine that they have a god given right to a NM before low man because their group has more people aside, yeah 100% PDT appears to not be intended and as such it really shouldn't stick around. And in before the inevitable question: When it's been in game for about as long as Abyssea has been around, it was a pretty safe assumption that it was intended. Apparently it was not which leads me to this next statement: Devs need to learn to not take several months to fix problems on the next major update of the game. I'm tired of "living with it" when major problems pop up that any other dev in the world would fix stat instead of making their customers suffer. Food for thought.

They did a good job on knocking out drain samba pets in record time, though. That deal had me in agony it was so horrible I quit BST/DNC DNC/BST because of it.

[Khiinroye]

Ducal Guard atma was added with Heroes, so it hasn't been around since the start of abyssea, only since the last major update.

Anyways, to the OP:

1) We don't get through NMs in 10-15, its more like 2-3 minutes for competent groups, 10-15 for the ones that take you 1-2 hours. You will not be getting the same drop rate, and will thus be farming the same NM over and over and over, whereas we can trigger and actually get a good drop rate. For example, farming seals, a group of 4 can get all seals done for 4 people in about 1.5-2 hours. You will have to kill the NM at least 4 times, assuming you get 2/2 seals for your job every time. However, let's give an average of 1.5 seals per kill (assuming Dipper Yuly), evenly distributed, at 10 minutes per kill, with a measly 5 minutes per kill to farm another pop. 15 minutes per kill then. You're then looking at a bit over 5 hours, assuming nobody else pops the NM. If you get unlucky, it can take twice that. People complete stages of empyrean weapons faster than that.

"Not getting slowed down" by other people shows you don't play well with others.

2) Nobody is saying bst can't solo, or shouldn't be allowed to solo.

3) I IS an exploit. Mobs are monsters? Ok, let's consider the normal -pdt for the mobs that a bst can summon with jugpets. I believe the answer is 0%. Any damage type resistance (i.e. blunt, slashing, piercing) is still present on your jugpet.

Drawbacks:
A) Who is trick attacking, cure, collaborator, warcry etc etc while you're soloing? Irrelevant when soloing, except for cure from /mage. See: Reward.
B) True, but if you're fighting a single mob with no link, this is irrelevant.

Benefits:
A) Regular mobs don't have haste, pdt, enhanced critical, etc.
B) True
C) Can be resummoned every 4.5 minutes with no weakness, and then have hate instantly via snarl, vs player having to be raised and waiting 5 minutes to be unweak.

4) This is a repeat of #2. To the hakutaku example: people duo'd that at lv 75 just fine, it was pickup alliances who had trouble.

5) People don't hate bst, people hate bsts with a persecution complex, who think that everyone hates them and refuse to participate in group activities or accept help because everyone is out to get them. They hate the bsts who would show up to an occupied camp, charm aggressive mobs, and leave them on a party to drive it out and take the camp. "Everyone hates bst" has long since been an invalid argument to anything; it is just an argument used one-sidedly by bst to try to get things for their benefit.

Experience mobs vs pets and prey? Prey is what, exactly? Experience mobs? They are the same thing then. For NMs, did you expect people to say "oh, there's a bst here, we need to leave, if it were another party or linkshell, it'd be fine, but a bst, let's get out of here?" Its called competition, and is a part of mmorpgs. Parties fought against other parties at the same camps just as viciously as they fought against bsts, except bsts killed far slower and thus lost out more, and then resorted to MPK. Even bsts fought against other bsts for camps. That means that YOU are your own enemy, and shouldn't be allowed to decide your fate.

Anyways, its the SE development team that has the final say, and they said "NAY" to your -100% pdt.

Against EP-IT mobs: So you're fine without -100% pdt
Against small NMs: So you're fine without -100% pdt.
Against large NMs: you have to deal with concerns other than -pdt, so you're not focused on that anyways, since the other damage will devastate your pet if you keep its hp low enough to activate that, so it doesn't matter if you don't have -100% pdt. Of course, some of the mobs here only do physical damage, in which case you're completely invincible.

Also, please take a naked lv 90 mnk without atma or enhanced cruor buffs, and a naked lv 90 whm without atma or enhanced cruor buffs, and put them against most NMs. You'll find they have a much harder time than you think. Effort on your part to get gear? In the locked thread, its about 35 hours of work.

Your argument boils down to "we don't need it to do what we do, so we should have it." I don't need the ability for holy to do 1752893 damage on every mob to be able to kill it with my group, so that is how much damage it should do. The argument doesn't make much sense in that application, does it?

You're acting like they'll be completely removing the ability of pets to have -pdt. This is not the case. They're just removing the ability for bst pets to have the two hour ability Invincible active indefinitely once conditions are met.

Finally, consider this: with jugpet duration, abyssea timeout, loss of conection, and servers going offline out of the equation, who would win, a lv 35 capped rabbit familiar with -100% pdt, or the lv 95+ Cuijatender, who can wipe alliances with a single tp move? Hint: it may take dozens or hundreds of years, but if it can do 1 point of damage with a critical hit, the rabbit would eventually win, without taking a single point of damage.

[Disifer]

Says where wyvern, automaton and pets receive invincible correct?. How do pups and drgs even get to invincible? through stacking 3 atma's for damage reduction correct?

I use ducal guard (50% under 50% hp), zenith (10%) and razed ruins for DD, the rest of the 40% of through trait enhancement and gear.

Smn's are not other pet jobs, Bst have call beast timer, pups have a recall timer, as well as Drg's. Smn was nerfed because pet would die, can resummon one at anytime essentially, not even a 10 second cooldown.

If they are going to do anything, it should be to cap DT to 50% from atma, and 50% from gear, meaning with that setup you could get 93% PDT with the new back piece and like 70something% of MDT. I use my bst to solo boss clears n mobs for friends who need it cause the amount of quality players left who won't wipe to an Ironclad (LOL)for instance is few and far between. I might have even been the original BST the QQ'er cried about solo'ing Hedjedjet. I play in the A.M. and I am a EST player. Meaning no one is online, no one will be on before I log and I cannot get anything i want done. Every seal, every +2 item i've gotten has been from solo. Hedjedjet still gave an insane poison aura i had to run away and clear myself of, keep pet above 0% hp and run back to pet to snarl hate after hell scissors while trying not to get punched in the face by a huge NM or get the 100 tic poison aura. Not any idiot can do those fights.

The obvious crap about abyssea being a timed zone is an utter excuse. I have 250+ stones myself. Anyone who had 0 stones when the servers went down due to the tsunami came back with 50. Spending stones to go into a "timed zone" in order to farm what they need shouldn't be too much of a hassle, and no need to QQ about it.

The addage about taking a hour to kill a mob instead of 10 mins lies within the fact that you cannot do exactly what you want in that exact time and you get all hot and bothered. Fafnir shoulda taken 10-20 mins to kill at 75 but people still took a hour. What if i wanted ToD but didnt feel like wasting an extra 40 mins. I didn't make a thread or go complain. I read a book, or made a coffee while i waited.

The whole point is the description of this supposed nerf doesn't say what they are going to do if anything. Ducal guard, winged gloom and zenith make you 100% DT. That is both PDT and MDT for people who cannot grasp that concept, that my friends is broken. Maybe that's what is being fixed? Ever think of that. Let's not all go jump off the ship as soon as the Titanic hits the iceberg, let's wait n see if we get thrown a raft at the last second. Jeeze.

[GlobalVariable]

Yes my first post (OP) said -50% pdt because i was not really happy when i did the post, but if you read on all my other post, i keepThe fact you ever demanded 50% at all is relevant because that is what I'm arguing against. You didn't comment on any other% until page 8. What do you want me to do here, quote each and every post so you feel all the different things you said are fairly represented?
Sorry but if you can't get the point i just can't help, keep doing the clown you amuse me.
No i am not a BST hater, hope you gonna get over it someday.This is the attitude you resort to. :rolleyes: I suggest you ignore list me if my mere presence bothers you so much.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Here's a stance for the bst side. They have pets that are highly consumable with verly large recast timers. Without the pdt, you'll burn one pet in under a minute and then simply die, losing all of the effort you put into getting to that point. Whereas a smn could mearly pull out another on the spot. You're stuck on a view that says abyssea is the whole game and nothing but the game, but you have to remember that this pdt is extremely limited. Only abyssea, and only certain enemies.


3) I IS an exploit. Mobs are monsters? Ok, let's consider the normal -pdt for the mobs that a bst can summon with jugpets. I believe the answer is 0%. Any damage type resistance (i.e. blunt, slashing, piercing) is still present on your jugpet.This is NOT an exploit. If it were such, it would be in contradiction of what the game was intended to do, but this is the way is was intended to work.

To Square Enix:
You have the pet adjustments in the same update as the increased number of ??? points. If this update is a decrease in PDT, keep in mind that this decission you have made was based off of the imput of complainer and not the community as a whole. I request that you hold off on any such variety of pet adjustments until after the implementation of the additional ??? points to see if any concerns still hold valid. I do know a very large portion of the community who's gaming experience will not only be greatly dimminished, but will also more then likely never return to the game if such occures. These have been jobs that have been neglected for a very long time in favor of others, but have now finaly had new life breathed into them. If the rumors are true, you are how going to take that life out of them to cateer to the complaints and whims of a small portion of the population. Please also keep in mind the difference between a valid concern and individuals who are mearly more vocal then the rest and that these forums only also represent a very small portion of the game's population.

~Thank you.

[Khiinroye]

If it were the way it were intended to work, it wouldn't be getting fixed.

It was calculated that, in abyssea (where the 100% pdt glitch is) that reducing it to 50% and equipping a single 20/tic regen atma, a mob would have to do 17,000 damage (34,000 without pdt) in 4:30 to kill your pet. That's a tall order for anything except the strongest of the NMs, so don't act like you pet is a delicate piece of glass that dies in under a minute to anything.

[Gotterdammerung]

In Response to Khiinroye:

Ive been using 100% pet pdt outside abyssea long before Ducal.

I think 30 min to an hour is a reasonable time limit for a boss solo.

So what if i don't "play well with others" thats kind of the point of having a soloist job option. And since were comparing solo job to groups, i think its a relevant point.

Yep nobody is saying that. Including me. I actually said bst will never stop soloing. If you read what i said, you will see i merely pointed out that nerfing us causes the fights to take longer. Wich just simply boils down to you waiting even longer for a bst to finish soloing the NM you want.

You completely misunderstood my point here. And stated some things falsely. Whereas a normal monster might not actually have any PDT, that monster still has no limit on how much pdt it COULD have. Ok so a normal monster has 0 pdt. Well so does a naked pld. Also some jugs do have natural resistances. Fatso takes -25% from blunt for instance. In short, all players have the potential of 50% physical damage reduction wether they have the means to supply it or not. And all monsters have the potential of 100% pdt whether they have the means to get it or not.

A. why dont you let me worry about the usefulness of pets being targetable by player spells and abilities. To quote Paul Smecker "Greenly, the day i want the Boston Police Department to do my thinking for me, I will have a @#$%ing tag on my toe."
Just because it has limited use in solo play doesnt mean it doesnt fit the criteria for attributes of a monster that negatively effect a bstmaster.

B. Yes except for accidental agro or another groups AoEs hitting your pet. And so? it only has to happen enough to be a hindrance to meet the criteria of this list.

Benefits:
A. As i explained above. were talking about potential caps.

B. yep its tru

C. this newly added C does not meet the criteria. Call beast is merely how we obtain the monster. It is not a trait of our pet.


Yes it is up to the dev team. Wich is why i am here advocating for it. And no they havent said for sure this specific thing is being changed. We still have a little under a week to see what they do, so stop acting like its final.


Why do they have to be naked? i just said they didnt have to spend a lot of time gearing. I can take a quickly geared mnk and whm and have adequate results.

Also the pdt gear is a considerable chunk of work.

Anwig= full completion of MKD
Sheperds chain= a rare drop that on average takes 20-30 kills to obtain.
2 axes = 2 completed trials.
+1 emp legs = time spent fighting enough NMs or collection from enuf quests to get 8/8 seals and then time spent doing the event to buy the legs.
Selemnus belt= semi rare drop average 1/6 kills

Atma of the Zenith= full completion of nyzul isle

Atma of the ducal = Fame raising + NM fight + several Dom OPs

Atma of the lion = farming a pop and fighting him and getting red.

I suppose you "COULD" get lucky enough to finish this in 35 hours. But if uncle pete is being his usual troll self you will probly spend that much time just camping him and thats only 1 part.


No i wasnt saying that. People were suggesting that its broke. I was just actually analyzing the in game benefit to show how its not broke like it seems from the outside.

And i never said we didnt need it. Having it allows us to maintain a reasonable kill speed. Yes we will still be able to solo without it. but our solos will slow down. Im saying there is no harm in leaving it. The way it is causes no problems. When you change it, it will cause problems as it takes longer for bsts to solo.

Im not acting like anything, we dont know what they will do. I am merely advocating my side so when they do decide to change it, it is an informed descision and not " caving to a vocal minority"

Your last paragraph is erroneous. The maximum amount of time a bst with an underlvled pet could spend solo on cuijatender is 120 minutes. That is not enuf time for the lvl 35 rabbit to win. And no bst in his right mind would "troll" like this. We are effecient and skillful people. This kind of behaviour goes against the grain of any and every career bst i have ever met. (And ive met most of them)

[Gotterdammerung]

To Square Enix:
You have the pet adjustments in the same update as the increased number of ??? points. If this update is a decrease in PDT, keep in mind that this decission you have made was based off of the imput of complainer and not the community as a whole. I request that you hold off on any such variety of pet adjustments until after the implementation of the additional ??? points to see if any concerns still hold valid. I do know a very large portion of the community who's gaming experience will not only be greatly dimminished, but will also more then likely never return to the game if such occures. These have been jobs that have been neglected for a very long time in favor of others, but have now finaly had new life breathed into them. If the rumors are true, you are how going to take that life out of them to cateer to the complaints and whims of a small portion of the population. Please also keep in mind the difference between a valid concern and individuals who are mearly more vocal then the rest and that these forums only also represent a very small portion of the game's population.

~Thank you.

I couldn't agree with this more. If you only read 1 thing from this thread, please SE, read this.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

If it were the way it were intended to work, it wouldn't be getting fixed.

It was calculated that, in abyssea (where the 100% pdt glitch is) that reducing it to 50% and equipping a single 20/tic regen atma, a mob would have to do 17,000 damage (34,000 without pdt) in 4:30 to kill your pet. That's a tall order for anything except the strongest of the NMs, so don't act like you pet is a delicate piece of glass that dies in under a minute to anything.

You seen the tag of the update thread? "Caving the the vocal minority"

This was changed along with all in this update because of people complaining, had they not they wouldn't have bothered.

So it was an exploit for sure, but in no way was it done as it was a glitch, or not as intended.

[Aldersyde]

Hedjedjet still gave an insane poison aura i had to run away and clear myself of, keep pet above 0% hp and run back to pet to snarl hate after hell scissors while trying not to get punched in the face by a huge NM or get the 100 tic poison aura. Not any idiot can do those fights.

It's pointless to try to explain this to people on this site. The level of misinformation on DG is just unbelievable. This is just typical the-sky-is-falling mentality that pervades these forums and the community in general.

Ilax didn't even provide any proof that what he claims happened at Hedjedjed actually happened. And I'm still waiting for an explanation on how a pup soloed Dragua when the mob's AoE is range is huge, it's not physically based, and a mage puppet has way less hp than a jug pet.

[Arcon]

Here's a stance for the bst side. They have pets that are highly consumable with verly large recast timers. Without the pdt, you'll burn one pet in under a minute and then simply die, losing all of the effort you put into getting to that point. Whereas a smn could mearly pull out another on the spot. You're stuck on a view that says abyssea is the whole game and nothing but the game, but you have to remember that this pdt is extremely limited. Only abyssea, and only certain enemies.

BST and SMN comparison is a bit far fetched imo, they are very different jobs if you look at the specifics. SMN has also a lot of drawbacks, for one, they have a realistic chance to be one-shot (even inside Abyssea), unlike BST. They also require MP, can be interrupted while summoning a pet (which all by itself is crippling in many fights), can't be silenced in order to work (amnesia cripples SMN just as much as BST), their pets have very low HP compared to BST pets, they have absolutely no means of curing their avatars (unless it's an avatar ability, but using it also requires MP and resets the long BP recast timer). Not to mention magic aggro can often pose a threat to anything they attempt to do. Also, SMN's offensive capabilities are nowhere near a BST's capabilities (neither pet nor master). BSTs also have greater pet interaction capabilities and a nice hate shed move.


This is NOT an exploit. If it were such, it would be in contradiction of what the game was intended to do, but this is the way is was intended to work.

I don't really get this sentence. If it's not an exploit, why are they removing it? And don't say because people complained, why did they remove it from SMN, before anyone complained?

I don't even think it's true in this case. To be honest, I'm not sure SE cares much about what people complain about on here, or at least so far there hasn't been much indication of such concern, apart from a few isolated dev/community comments (none of which appeared on this topic btw). People on here have been complaining for much longer an many more topics, I doubt they picked this one out at random to add to their agenda if they didn't have an opinion of their own about it.

Also, from the sound of it the people advocating the -100% PDT removal are quite a few more than the opposition. I didn't do any actual counting, just seems that way to me. Even many people that want BST to stand out agree that this feature is broken and want other ways to increase their utility.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

If it were the way it were intended to work, it wouldn't be getting fixed.It's not getting fixed, it's being changed. Please understand the difference.

[blowfin]

It's not getting fixed, it's being changed. Please understand the difference.

And we don't even know for sure what they're doing, so this thread may in fact be a complete waste of time.

[Greatguardian]

And we don't even know for sure what they're doing, so this thread may in fact be a complete waste of time.

Well, to be fair it's a complete waste of time either way.

[Malamasala]

Smn was nerfed because pet would die, can resummon one at anytime essentially, not even a 10 second cooldown.

Actually it is 30 seconds cool down ON SAME avatar. So we'd have to spam two avatars to get past it, which of course is not a problem at all. I usually almost get myself killed while kiting things weakened and trying to resummon the same avatar that I have a 60 sec recast on. So while it is easy to think you have zero cool down, it can backfire on you if you are not thinking.

[blowfin]

Well, to be fair it's a complete waste of time either way.

Fair to what, exactly?


No i am not a BST hater, hope you gonna get over it someday.

You outed yourself quite nicely with the original thread I thought.

You do know that it reads like: Someone else was soloing MY mob, please nerf the job in question?

[Greatguardian]

Fair to what, exactly?

Whether we know what they're doing or not, the thread is a waste of time either way

[Gokku]

simple answer to all groups watching a bst solo , rdm+ chainspell cure 4 + convert = oh your mobs lost hate now ill just pull it to a place youll agro something and die to at and take it.

[Aldersyde]

simple answer to all groups watching a bst solo , rdm+ chainspell cure 4 + convert = oh your mobs lost hate now ill just pull it to a place youll agro something and die to at and take it.

I've been a bst long enough to put blockaid up. Good effort though.

[Sparthos]

On the "SMN can't heal their avatars": Dawn Mulsum, check it out.

[Khiinroye]

Oh, snap, there goes bst's claim about their pets can't be cured often, too. I didn't know about that. Non-stackable makes it limited use, but in a pinch, just a few would suffice.


It's not getting fixed, it's being changed. Please understand the difference.

Bold for emphasis.


The following issues will be fixed

* Incorrect messages may be displayed when players trade an item to Delivery Crate during the Trial of the Magians.
* The vial of shrouded sand can be obtained in Dynamis even though the requirements are not met.
* If the vial of shrouded sand is in the player's possession while the requirements aren't met, players must check the Trail Markings once again after the version update.
* The Treasure Casket appears after defeating Goblin's Bats in Ranguemont Pass.
* The monster that spawns from "???" in Behemoth's Dominion was not spawning.
* Pet, Wyvern and Automaton may become invincible under certain circumstances.
* The effect of Barrage Turbine was also active on frames other than the Sharpshot Frame.
The following items being deliverable:
Bridal Corsage / Benedight Coat / Benedight Hose / Chocobo Whistle
* In case these items have been delivered to another character on the same account, they cannot be sent back to the character who originally possessed them.


It's getting fixed.




You seen the tag of the update thread? "Caving the the vocal minority"

This was changed along with all in this update because of people complaining, had they not they wouldn't have bothered.

So it was an exploit for sure, but in no way was it done as it was a glitch, or not as intended.


Tags are added by forum users.

BSTs claiming that they should get physically immune pets is also a vocal minority. I could add a tag to this thread "vocal bst minority cries over exploit nerf" or "silent majority rejoices over justice dealt" but I won't, as that would be against the ToS of the forums.



You completely misunderstood my point here. And stated some things falsely. Whereas a normal monster might not actually have any PDT, that monster still has no limit on how much pdt it COULD have. Ok so a normal monster has 0 pdt. Well so does a naked pld. Also some jugs do have natural resistances. Fatso takes -25% from blunt for instance. In short, all players have the potential of 50% physical damage reduction wether they have the means to supply it or not. And all monsters have the potential of 100% pdt whether they have the means to get it or not.


Consider this view: Monsters have no way to raise their base pdt or mdt. There are a few exceptions, which are NMs like Ovni or ones that become stronger as their HP drops. The damage resistance is specially added to these NMs as part of the challenge of defeating them. Some can get immunities like ahrimans, but those are from tp moves and are temporary via physical shield, magic shield, or arrow shield effect.

Only players have the ability to increase the pdt and mdt of charmed pets, jugpets, automatons, wyverns, and summons. You can consider this fix a change to the maximum amount to which a player can adjust its pet's resistance to damage, rather than a change to the monster itself.

The fix will affect more jobs besides bst, which you seem to be ignoring. Puppetmasters also are affected majorly by this, but their attitude is more "it was good while it lasted, but I'm not that surprised." Drg doesn't care, as they never have their pet tanking.

100% pdt is the same situation as the brd glitch, where carol 2 would reduce damage of its element to 0 with two or more pieces of af3 +2. That got patched quickly, and nobody was surprised or angry about it. In fact, everyone had a laugh at SE for making such a silly error. SMN was patched faster because yes, it was easier to trigger for them and there were more of them out doing it. Every time that a job was able to grant immunity to a type of damage at a 100% rate, it has been nerfed. You shouldn't be surprised or upset about this.



A. why dont you let me worry about the usefulness of pets being targetable by player spells and abilities. To quote Paul Smecker "Greenly, the day i want the Boston Police Department to do my thinking for me, I will have a @#$%ing tag on my toe."
Just because it has limited use in solo play doesnt mean it doesnt fit the criteria for attributes of a monster that negatively effect a bstmaster.

B. Yes except for accidental agro or another groups AoEs hitting your pet. And so? it only has to happen enough to be a hindrance to meet the criteria of this list.

Benefits:
A. As i explained above. were talking about potential caps.

C. this newly added C does not meet the criteria. Call beast is merely how we obtain the monster. It is not a trait of our pet.


Disadvantages
A: Not up for discussion? It is highly relevant. In a solo situation, with -100% pdt, this hindrance is irrelevant. In a party situation, sure, but then you should be gearing for your own damage and not the pet, and the pet becomes supplemental.

C: Charmed pets may despawn and repop at an undesireable level when leave is used.

Benefits:
A: As mentioned above, it is a player capability to modify those, not the monster's.

C: Respawn conditions are part of the monster's traits. Instant respawn at full health and no weakness if 4:30 has passed since it was last called is certainly relevant to your pet. I added a C to disadvantages for this to be fair.



Yes it is up to the dev team. Wich is why i am here advocating for it. And no they havent said for sure this specific thing is being changed. We still have a little under a week to see what they do, so stop acting like its final.


It is listed in issues that will be fixed. This means the dev team sees it as a problem, and it will be fixed.



Why do they have to be naked? i just said they didnt have to spend a lot of time gearing. I can take a quickly geared mnk and whm and have adequate results.

Also the pdt gear is a considerable chunk of work.

Anwig= full completion of MKD
Sheperds chain= a rare drop that on average takes 20-30 kills to obtain.
2 axes = 2 completed trials.
+1 emp legs = time spent fighting enough NMs or collection from enuf quests to get 8/8 seals and then time spent doing the event to buy the legs.
Selemnus belt= semi rare drop average 1/6 kills

Atma of the Zenith= full completion of nyzul isle

Atma of the ducal = Fame raising + NM fight + several Dom OPs

Atma of the lion = farming a pop and fighting him and getting red.

I suppose you "COULD" get lucky enough to finish this in 35 hours. But if uncle pete is being his usual troll self you will probly spend that much time just camping him and thats only 1 part.


You said they didn't have to spend any time. Toss them in AF1 and then give them one atma, from mission completion only. A bad mnk and whm duo will still struggle. A good mnk and whm duo will have taken quite a lot of time on their gear, have 3 atmas, and willl have most likely taken more time than is needed for the -100% pdt setup.

None of the listed work for pet pdt gear is all that difficult, just repetitive killing of low level mobs. The hardest listed item is the mdt belt, which coincidentally isn't -pdt. I'm sure you could cap -mdt, but at the expense of uncapping -pdt. I haven't really looked at the gear available.

Shepherd's chain is now replaceable with Oneiros cappa, which can be bought on the AH, or you can go to new Dynamis and farm it yourself--its not that hard. Okyupete is out of the equation.

The atmas are all easy to obtain, especially Ducal guard. 20 mobs, greens quest, and the NM is severely nerfed when fought for the quest. Nyzul takes a while if you're new; otherwise you should either already have this or be able to get it in a few runs.



And i never said we didnt need it. Having it allows us to maintain a reasonable kill speed. Yes we will still be able to solo without it. but our solos will slow down. Im saying there is no harm in leaving it. The way it is causes no problems. When you change it, it will cause problems as it takes longer for bsts to solo.

Im not acting like anything, we dont know what they will do. I am merely advocating my side so when they do decide to change it, it is an informed descision and not " caving to a vocal minority"

Your last paragraph is erroneous. The maximum amount of time a bst with an underlvled pet could spend solo on cuijatender is 120 minutes. That is not enuf time for the lvl 35 rabbit to win. And no bst in his right mind would "troll" like this. We are effecient and skillful people. This kind of behaviour goes against the grain of any and every career bst i have ever met. (And ive met most of them)


Bold indicates a contradiction. If you slow down, so what? The fix is not about speed of killing it, its about having a pet that takes no physical damage.

My last paragraph was a hypothetical situation where time limits were removed. Note that I said it might take hundreds of years--nobody expects FFXI to be around that long. It was an extreme example to show the nature of the problem--the fact is, once setup, some lv 95+ NMs are completely incapable of dealing a single point of damage to a lv 35 pet.


One last thing I noticed:


Right now a whm + any DD can duo everything a bst can solo, and probably more. And they have a higher chance of benefitting from the !!'s. I guess i dont see the real threat of letting bst keep this.

You realize that bst is included in "whm + any dd" right?

[Malamasala]

On the "SMN can't heal their avatars": Dawn Mulsum, check it out.

The wiki lacks info about how much it heals. Fixed number or %? Didn't seem that terrible to make (except having the skill for it).

[Khiinroye]

Movedwiki says 25-35%. I'll add that.

[blowfin]

It's getting fixed.

Do you have any proof they're actually changing the PDT cap for pets?

... no. Ok, carry on.

[Disifer]

If it were the way it were intended to work, it wouldn't be getting fixed.

It was calculated that, in abyssea (where the 100% pdt glitch is) that reducing it to 50% and equipping a single 20/tic regen atma, a mob would have to do 17,000 damage (34,000 without pdt) in 4:30 to kill your pet. That's a tall order for anything except the strongest of the NMs, so don't act like you pet is a delicate piece of glass that dies in under a minute to anything.

You're talking a 3k-4k jug pet, cause plain simply sheep sucks due to being capped at 86 and even with BA merits its still junk compared to a rabbit. DC activates under 50% hp so cut jug pets hp to half which is 2k, MNK has more. Now think i can only reward every 1:10 or 1:15 with merits and gear, and a 20 HP Regen Atma or even 25 is crap for Ducal Guard due to the fact it can raise the mob above 50% hp, risking a huge dmg move, and one shots pet cause DG will not kick in at all.

Your logic is flawed until you play the job, simply put. Whoever did your calculations is wrong.


a true PDT setup is Zenith (10%) Ducal Guard (50% DT under 50% hp) and a DD atma like RR. Fight normal mob until DG kicks in, kill it, fight NM. Thats how you do it, not 3 DT atma's and gear. Can reach it with 2, if they release 7 more % DT gear you can get it without Zenith for crying out loud. Every MNK + WHM, Ochain PLD and numerous jobs with crit WS's are essentially "broken" in abyssea and jobs like DRK who need a complaint brought to SE's attention goes unnoticed while a QQ thread about how pets have 100% pdt is the cream of the crop. Avatars have 87% and you want pets to have 50% to the leaders of that thread. Call Beast = 4:10, Avatar = unlimited. Think before you speak please.

Like i said, Cut atma to 50% max and it'll still work. 93% pdt is max at that point. Don't make hours of a BST completing gear worthless

[Yarly]

Don't make hours of a BST completing gear worthless

Because BST is the only job that puts hours of work into completeing gear, right? Think before you speak please.

[Chocobits]

I think it's altogether possible and likely that SE will just make -DT atma non-stackable. We'll still have DG + Gear. Stackable -DT atma was broken for everyone concerned anyway. I'm happy with an 80%+ cap. I raised opposition to the nerf because when it comes to nerfs, SE doesn't always choose the right size hammer to nail the problem, and their "fixes" worry me, and sometimes lead to jobs being worthless for years at a time.

[Disifer]

Because BST is the only job that puts hours of work into completeing gear, right? Think before you speak please.

So far only job in the trial of the magians era besides DRK that put in work for a setup to just be shafted at a certain point. GS and Scythe were good, not great weapons before last update. Now with crit cap update, other jobs make them look even more horrible.

NIN/BRD didn't need gear, was nerfed. RNG spent millions on ammo to be best DD, not gear thats now "possibly worthless" RDM maybe spent time buying some enmity gear to make it the best tank at one point for varying situations, not 40+ hours camping random NM's and such just to have that gear be worthless. If Ochain gets a "fix" would they be upset about putting all that time into a shield thats now a meh upgrade from a buyable shield. Only reason Ochain will start booming popularity anymore is due to the hundred shields video. People see a nitch and and run with it.

I thought before I spoke. I said if anything make ATMA cap at 50%, the rest is through gear, that makes currently 90% possible with my setup and like 70something MDT. Top cap would be 93% for PDT with new back piece, but lose 10 accuracy. Meaning my solo will hold you up even longer cause now my pet will whiff more, can't wait to block you QQ'ers more after update

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Bold for emphasis.
It's getting fixed.That's just tech speak.
And we don't even know for sure what they're doing, so this thread may in fact be a complete waste of time.True, it is all conjecture. lol

[Khiinroye]

The calculation for damage a pet can sustain assumed a cap of -50%, which just needs Atma of the Zenith. Beast affinity merits raise Nursery Nazuna to lv 90, and it is the most popular beastmaster pet from 75-90. It was an example using the worst-case scenario of the incoming change (nobody thinks they'll lower the cap to below that of players) to show that pets are not as frail as some beastmasters are making them out to be.

It should have had Zenith substituted for ducal guard, which is an extra 10% on the base hp of the pet. Even using the rabbit, its 16,000 damage that the pet can sustain (32,000 unmitigated). Switching out the hp atma for a dd atma drops this to 15,000 (30,000 unmitigated). Yes, spike damage can kill it early and you'll have to kite, which is easy to do on most mobs. Also, you'll have your timer ready before you start fighting the NM, so it actually has to kill your first pet before you start worrying about your timer.


That's just tech speak.

I don't know what definition of fixed you're using then, but its quite clearly in the "This is not working as intended, and will be addressed" section.

[Arcon]

The calculation for damage a pet can sustain assumed a cap of -50%, which just needs Atma of the Zenith.

Interesting is also to see how much raw (unmitigated) damage a mob would have to dish out regularly to be able to even kill a pet at all.

R: Regen [HP/tick]
D: DPS [HP/s]
P: PDT []
C: Reward [HP]
T: Time till death [s]

D > (C/75 + R)/(1 - P)

So for 1000 HP Reward potency (which isn't very high) and 50% PDT with only one Regen Atma (20 HP/tick = 20/3 HP/s), we would get:

D > 40

And notice that D is damage per second. Since the average mob attacks once every 4 seconds, that value would go up to 160 HP/hit.

Now, if we assume 90% PDT:

D > 200, or 800/hit

Which means even at 90% PDT with just one Regen Atma, a pet would be pretty much Invincible on most mobs. Also, this is a somewhat low value for Reward, could push this number higher yet.

[Daremo]

Once every 4 second? What gimp ass mobs are you fighting?

[Arcon]

Once every 4 second? What gimp ass mobs are you fighting?

Was taken from wiki (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/TP#Enemy_TP_gain):

Most enemies have 240 Delay, and gain 6.4 TP per hit.

[Daremo]

I wouldn't use that as the base line for anything you might be tempted to use pdt gear on, I can't remember the last mob I fought that only attacked once per round.

[Gotterdammerung]

New style of soloing for bst. Bst/rdm Pet: Bloodclaw shasra. atma minkin MC and any movement +

Bio II>snarl> run.

Briareus is gonna lose 100 lbs. with the work out ima give him Running laps around that lake.

[Disifer]

Cannot toss a value on 90% PDT because its a latent effect that kicks in at 50% or less. Regen can and will make it go over the limit and a move such as a death scissors will oneshot it, see what I am saying. The mathmatical equation must be more complicated than that.

50% PDT is easy, thats just Zenith, but also factor in the fact that now you only have about 23% MDT in that setup as well. Atma's of my choice if this would work would be Zenith, Razed Ruins and Mounted Champion for 20 a tic. If my pet lasted the whole 4:10, my regen for that amount of time would be 1666. 250 seconds at 20 a tic which is aprox every 3 secs. so 250/3 is 83 1/3 secs times the 20 HP pet tic. Can double check my math, i may be off, im a plumber not a college grad. Now you say pet has to withstand 5666 HP for 4:10, for a mob such as Teekesselchen or Orthrus who casts heavy elemental damage, there is no way with regen alone that i can keep my pet alive. (In case of orthrus it wouldn't be a solo, it would be about a month ago a way of holding some hate incase WHM's cant keep MNK alive due to not having his atma yet and BLM's being slow on -ga stun or gates stun.)

Now factor in reward. I can start Reward at any time, and redo every 1:10-1:15. Say i start it about 50 secs into a fight, sounds reasonably fair correct? Each Reward I'll give a base value of 1200, even thats low with Zeta's. Meaning i can Reward up to 4 times if i start earlier than 50 secs, or 3 if that sounds reasonable at 50. Thats 3600 HP Recovered During that Call Beat timer cooldown. 5666 + 3600 = 9266 HP on a 4k pet. Sheep takes extra Magic Damage than the other pets, even more than i normally would most of the time, thats why it's 4k on a smaller pet to start with. 9266 divided by 250 seconds which are in a merit'd Call Beast timer, meaning I can take a constant Barrage of 37 dmg per second, not swing, and just outlive the Call Beast timer to call a new pet, send it to fight, snarl away hopefully my hate accumulation and do it all over again. You're talking 112 dmg per "tic" you can absorb. PDT wise that you can definitely deal with considering Pet isn't always gonna get hit, but even with DipperYuly, you're talking a 3.7k HP pool, lower than the 4k defined. Meaning you hope the mob doesn't have acc like a spider or you're dead with her as a pet. Magic casting? forget it, you're done for.

By no means am I perfect with calculating damage values. It's only saying i can absorb 112 per tic and with 50% PDT thats doable riding reward timers. with 23% MDT, it quite frankly is not.

Increase Ducal Guard from 50 -75%? Will prob never happen. 87.5% cap like avatars? possibly but now you're talking about making one of my pdt axes useless in Abyssea since i would get 90% with DG and Zenith, and save axe for a new MDB trial axe, perhaps to try to come closer to the 87.5% MDT cap.

Like everyone says, no one knows what it going on, could be a glitch with atma's or whatnot or the fact that DG, Zenith which is 60%, AMK head which is 10 and winged gloom which is 30% = 100% DT invincible, which can hold any NM while searching for all 3 proc's, including Shinryu. especially if i have a whm cast regen on me and i can deal with 25 a tic slip damage which can easily be managed with reward gear.

This "update" isn't set in stone what it will be fixing, and if you think that getting bst's away from doing "your" NM's will solve this, come next two cap updates, things will be even easier for us in the end regardless of what they think to do

[Disifer]

New style of soloing for bst. Bst/rdm Pet: Bloodclaw shasra. atma minkin MC and any movement +

Bio II>snarl> run.

Briareus is gonna lose 100 lbs. with the work out ima give him Running laps around that lake.

I want youtube videos please

[Ilax]

The fact you ever demanded 50% at all is relevant because that is what I'm arguing against. You didn't comment on any other% until page 8. What do you want me to do here, quote each and every post so you feel all the different things you said are fairly represented? This is the attitude you resort to. :rolleyes:

I said 50% once, and -75%+ many time, was maybe on page #8 because subject derailed, instead talking about the % ppl jumped about how bst would fail without -100% and jumped on multiple false conclusion about me?


I suggest you ignore list me if my mere presence bothers you so much.

I should yes, think that actually a good idea.

[Volkai]

This sounds like it might be a nerf of the 100% pet phys dmg taken minus atma+ gear+ JT Beastmaster combination. If it is i would like to ask you to please reconsider.

Here are my reasons.


#1 It doesn't take a good geared bst very long to solo these NM's so i dont know why people feel the need to act like its an eternity. Most fights take 10-15 minutes some harder ones take 30 and like 1 or 2 take an hour. Also this logic, that because u can do these nms in 10-15 minutes then you are getting your stuff faster, is kinda flawed. Even if it takes me an hour to kill sumthin, i can be 100% through with that NM in a few hours worth of play. Most groups and shells wont complete everyones needs from an NM in just a few hours. I dont get my pace slowed down because sumone doesnt show up. I dont get slowed down by having to fight sumthing i dont need anything from. You might be able to kill stuff faster but in the end, im getting stuff faster.

#2 BST will never stop soloing stuff. We will always find a way to do it. I don't think that the people who asked for this nerf realized that taking away things like this just forces us to use more resources towards defense and less towards offense. They might be asking for a nerf because they dont like waiting for us to finish a solo, but by asking for it all they have done is ensure they will be waiting even longer than before.

#3 This was never much of an exploit. We have always had to play by the rules of "our pet is a monster." there are times when this has helped us and times when it has hindered us. The pdt and mdt cap is a player cap not a monster cap. If we have to deal with the downsides of our pet being a monster and not a player, then what is wrong with reaping the benefits of this state.

For those of you who are completely lost here is some examples of monster rules applied to bst pets that hinder play.
A. Can not be the target of non offensive player spells and JA's. (Trick attack, cure, collaborator, warcry, ect ect big list.)
B. Monster AI that causes pet to switch targets uncontrollably based on current hate (this leads to uncontrollably losing claim, wich leads to a stolen target).

And here is examples of this being a benefit
A. Monsters dont share player caps. No cap for crit, haste, all that stuff players normally have caps for.
B. Monsters have some extra traits from there families.

If you want to take away the best benefit of our pets being a monster then its only right we get the downsides taken away as well.

#4 Bst is designed to solo. Its natural for us to be able to handle what normally takes multiple players. The trade off has always been, it takes a little longer and there is less added benefits from things like TH (and now !! triggers). Right now a whm + any DD can duo everything a bst can solo, and probably more. And they have a higher chance of benefitting from the !!'s. I guess i dont see the real threat of letting bst keep this.

#5 People hate us. Asking the community of players about what should be done to BST for updates is like putting the fate of all african americans in the hands of the klu klux klan. Bst has been a hated job from day 1. We are in direct competition with the rest of the player base and always have been. In MANY players minds Beastmaster and "Normy" jobs are ENEMIES. We fought for camps. What was exp mobs to a party was "pets" and "prey" to a bst. You don't know how many times i have fought against parties, linkshells, low man groups for pets, prey, and NMs. And everytime it was a full fledge war complete with hatred and spite on both sides.

To sum up this last reason, i dont think its fair to let my enemy decide my fate.

Here are my counter-reasons:

#1 : It's a glitch.

#2 : Utilizing a glitch is cheating.

#3 : Cheating is against Terms of Service.

#4 : Leaving opportunities to violate Terms of Service in the game is bad.

Conclusion: Remove glitch, avoid opportunities for people to get themselves banned, make more money from subscription fees of people that don't get banned for abusing an invincibility glitch.

Upshot: People will complain about no longer being able to abuse a glitch, because they always do. But people who complain about something and keep playing are more profitable as customers than people who get banned and then no longer pay subscription fees.

===========


Your logic is flawed until you play the job, simply put.
Logic does not work that way. Personal experience does not determine the flawed or flawless state of logic.


That's just tech speak.
Coincidentally, techies use a lot of 'speak' that happens to mean the exact same thing it does when non-techs use it. Like 'fixed' means altering the state of something that is broken such that it becomes not broken.

[Disifer]

Here are my counter-reasons:

#1 : It's a glitch.

#2 : Utilizing a glitch is cheating.

#3 : Cheating is against Terms of Service.

#4 : Leaving opportunities to violate Terms of Service in the game is bad.

Conclusion: Remove glitch, avoid opportunities for people to get themselves banned, make more money from subscription fees of people that don't get banned for abusing an invincibility glitch.

Upshot: People will complain about no longer being able to abuse a glitch, because they always do. But people who complain about something and keep playing are more profitable as customers than people who get banned and then no longer pay subscription fees.

===========


Logic does not work that way. Personal experience does not determine the flawed or flawless state of logic.


Coincidentally, techies use a lot of 'speak' that happens to mean the exact same thing it does when non-techs use it. Like 'fixed' means altering the state of something that is broken such that it becomes not broken.

How is my logic flawed? I would like to know where the two of you thus far believe 16000 damage is what you can handle on BST. Where is 16k coming from, its not HP is it? Let's math a little bit and see if im wrong please. If i am then so be it, but pretty sure I am correct....

50% PDT is easy, thats just Zenith, but also factor in the fact that now you only have about 23% MDT in that setup as well. Atma's of my choice if this would work would be Zenith, Razed Ruins and Mounted Champion for 20 a tic. If my pet lasted the whole 4:10, my regen for that amount of time would be 1666. 250 seconds at 20 a tic which is aprox every 3 secs. so 250/3 is 83 1/3 secs times the 20 HP pet tic. Can double check my math, i may be off, im a plumber not a college grad. Now you say pet has to withstand 5666 HP for 4:10, for a mob such as Teekesselchen or Orthrus who casts heavy elemental damage, there is no way with regen alone that i can keep my pet alive. (In case of orthrus it wouldn't be a solo, it would be about a month ago a way of holding some hate incase WHM's cant keep MNK alive due to not having his atma yet and BLM's being slow on -ga stun or gates stun.)

Now factor in reward. I can start Reward at any time, and redo every 1:10-1:15. Say i start it about 50 secs into a fight, sounds reasonably fair correct? Each Reward I'll give a base value of 1200, even thats low with Zeta's. Meaning i can Reward up to 4 times if i start earlier than 50 secs, or 3 if that sounds reasonable at 50. Thats 3600 HP Recovered During that Call Beat timer cooldown. 5666 + 3600 = 9266 HP on a 4k pet. Sheep takes extra Magic Damage than the other pets, even more than i normally would most of the time, thats why it's 4k on a smaller pet to start with. 9266 divided by 250 seconds which are in a merit'd Call Beast timer, meaning I can take a constant Barrage of 37 dmg per second, not swing, and just outlive the Call Beast timer to call a new pet, send it to fight, snarl away hopefully my hate accumulation and do it all over again. You're talking 112 dmg per "tic" you can absorb

Absorb meaning you can take 112 per tic dmg, use reward, use regen, and you would still have to call a new pet at 4:10 cause it dies "exactly" then.

That isn't my personal experience, thats pretty much the way the game works.

Cap if nerfed should be same as avatars. Said that from the getgo, but you guys just love to have a stranglehold on someones nuts.

[Greatguardian]

A lot of people for this nerf have advocated the 87.5% cap too. It's not like it's going to stop any good BST from doing what they did before. They'll simply be doing it without legit Invincible.

Does it mean they can still take an hour fighting some things? Yeah. Do whole alliances of troglodytes do this too? Yeah. So there's really no difference. Abyssean Fiends should just hardcore rage after 30 minutes, if we want to deal with Apoc abuse and crap-tier killspeeds.

[Khiinroye]

If it takes 50 seconds to lower your pet's hp to use a 1200 reward, that's only doing 32 damage per second, factoring in regen. Sheep base hp at 90 is 5430, 5973 with zenith, so its 11,239 with only 3 rewards of 1200. 44.9 damage per second sustainable. Bump yourself up to eta and use only monster gaiters / ogre gloves instead of a full reward set, and you should be around 2100 per reward, which is 13,939 damage, or 55.7 per second. Wiki has Dipper Yuly at 4k base hp, not 3.7k, which amounts to 4.4k with zenith, which works out to 9666 (38.6); 12366 (49.5) with the stronger reward set.

I guess assuming using the top tier biscuits and easy-to-get reward boosting gear is flawed. You can get up to +50% potency, and the formula for eta is 1200 + 4*(MND-50). The lowest racial bst/nin mnd at 90 is 67, bst/dnc is higher, and you should have at least +40 mnd in cruor buffs. A r a quick google search shows set from 8 months ago with +46% potency +59 mnd, which, on low mnd races, works out to ~2429 reward in Visions zones. It will be higher in scars and heroes zones due to the boosts to cruor buffs. Oh, I was operating on the assumpion that Zoraal Ja's axe was ra/ex, but its neither, so 3 AH purchases and one dynamis drop gets you to +50% potency--2x axes (macro them in for 1 second), ogre gloves, and monster gaiters (every day dynamis, high drop rate on AF, low competition for bst).

Why are all the wiki values for jugpet hp so much more than what bsts are claiming here? I guess they might have already had zenith included, in which case its still 4078 hp with zenith for dipper yuly. The guy who added that is Daniel_Hatcher, who has posted in this thread.

If it takes 50 seconds to make it worth it for you to use reward, that's 1200 damage + countering regen, which amounts to 1540 damage in 50 seconds, or 30.8. Even with the stronger reward, its 2440 / 48.8. Last I checked, 30.8 < 37.0 < 38.6 < 44.9 and 48.8 < 49.5 < 55.7, and your pet should be able to survive the full timer. The only one where your pet won't have several hits left is if the Yuly hp calculation was done wrong, and you have the strong reward set. That one, your pet will be 175 hp short of meeting the damage in 4:10, which is about...3.5 seconds. You're not going to die in that interval, even though the mob is stronger than one assumed for the weak reward set.

Meanwhile, its 10% (zenith) + 10% (anwig) + 9% (legs +1/2) +3% (belt) in mdt, which is 32%, not 23%.

Also keep in mind that you'll likely have a spare pet to start with, so even if its close to being able to beat your timer, it will have to kill your first pet, then race to kill your second pet before your timer is up.

You can also get some dawn mulsum crafted to be able to cure your pet more, or use your healing salve in a pinch.

I guess it boils down to: after the fix, good bsts will still be able to solo stuff, and incompetent bsts will struggle and fail instead of breezing through. A vote for not fixing the patch is a vote for promoting incompetence, I guess.

[Arcon]

Your logic is flawed until you play the job, simply put. Whoever did your calculations is wrong.

This was the statement he was referring to, and he's right. This statement is logically wrong.

I see your argument centers mostly around MDT, which is not at all what people are talking about here. The formula to calculate survival time is:

T = H/(D*(1-P) - (R + C))

T: Time till death [s]
H: Max HP [HP]
D: DPS of the mob [HP/s]
R: Regen value [HP/s]
C: Reward potency [HP/s]
P: PDT reduction []

Now let's assume 4k HP, 20 HP/tick Regen, -50% PDT, 100 HP/s DPS, 1000 Reward potency every 1:15, and we get:

T = 4000HP/(100HP/s*(1-0.5) - (6.7HP/s + 13.3)) = 130s

So a little over two minutes. The amount of damage the pet will have sustained by then is 130*100 = 13k.

If we take a few different numbers, say Sheep with 6k HP, 1500 Reward potency (which still isn't very high) with the same gear/Atma choices, we get:

T = 6000HP/(100HP/s*(1-0.5) - (6.7HP/s + 20)) = 257s = 4min17s

Meanwhile sustaining a total of 25k damage.

[Khiinroye]

Keep in mind, these are all assuming WORST CASE that they drop it to 50%. Most people expect it to be dropped to around the smn cap of 87.5, which is 75% less damage than 50% -pdt. In that case, you'd still be using ducal guard, and be at your -78% mdt as well.

[Runespider]

New style of soloing for bst. Bst/rdm Pet: Bloodclaw shasra. atma minkin MC and any movement +

Bio II>snarl> run.

Briareus is gonna lose 100 lbs. with the work out ima give him Running laps around that lake.

a) you would time out

b) it's boring as hell and you are spiting yourselr more than anyone else.

c) if it became an issue where peopel bothered a GM on you they would fix it with rage or depop timers.

d) they would put everyone possible there to outclaim you on the ??? any time they saw you near it.

[Gotterdammerung]

a) you would time out

b) it's boring as hell and you are spiting yourselr more than anyone else.

c) if it became an issue where peopel bothered a GM on you they would fix it with rage or depop timers.

d) they would put everyone possible there to outclaim you on the ??? any time they saw you near it.


A. Not if i got my minutes up in the stratosphere b4 i started.

B. I enjoy every aspect of the game. I wouldn't be bored.

C. Rage woudn't change a thing and i doubt they would ever put depop timers on normal NMs.

D. They always put everyone possible on the ??? to outclaim me. So. I still get my pops.

[GlobalVariable]

*removed so as not to give a certain someone excuse to keep going with their "I'm a victim" crazyness*

[Aldersyde]

Keep in mind, these are all assuming WORST CASE that they drop it to 50%. Most people expect it to be dropped to around the smn cap of 87.5, which is 75% less damage than 50% -pdt. In that case, you'd still be using ducal guard, and be at your -78% mdt as well.

See, if you've seen the way that SE deals with adjustments and corrections to jobs over the course of the game's life, it's best to assume the worst case scenario, because the worst case scenario is usually what happens. Avatars are fundamentally different from jugs because they already have a native -pdt. I really doubt that SE is going to give jugs the same -pdt as avatars just because. Of course, it's still just speculation but if playing this game for 8 years has taught me anything about SE, it's expect the worst so If anything better happens I'm pleasantly surprised.

[Miera]

It's pointless to try to explain this to people on this site. The level of misinformation on DG is just unbelievable. This is just typical the-sky-is-falling mentality that pervades these forums and the community in general.

Ilax didn't even provide any proof that what he claims happened at Hedjedjed actually happened. And I'm still waiting for an explanation on how a pup soloed Dragua when the mob's AoE is range is huge, it's not physically based, and a mage puppet has way less hp than a jug pet.

YES PLEASE TELL US! <.<

They are able to solo Its baby Cousin in Tahrongi Canyon but they require movement speed gear which means obvious pet death and kiting..

But please, Dragua... [I'm Interested.]

[Miera]

A. Not if i got my minutes up in the stratosphere b4 i started.

B. I enjoy every aspect of the game. I wouldn't be bored.

C. Rage woudn't change a thing and i doubt they would ever put depop timers on normal NMs.

D. They always put everyone possible on the ??? to outclaim me. So. I still get my pops.

Rage would never change anything, People will just Zombie stuff. Atma of the Apocalypse, [Do you need it?]

[Louispv]

Bold indicates a contradiction. If you slow down, so what? The fix is not about speed of killing it, its about having a pet that takes no physical damage.

It is entirely about kill speed. The complaint was that BST were holding monsters for a really long time in order to solo it, and that made Ilax mess up his beloved schedule.

This is stupid for 3 reasons.
A) If it slows down our solos, Baby Ilax will have to wait LONGER for us to finish.
B)SE is adding more ??? to pop the NM's, eliminating the entire problem. SE wouldn't care if you held fafhog back in the day, if more than one fafhog could be up at once. Why do both?
C) They're nerfing a dead event. A finished event. An event they are trying to move us out of. Meaning all they are doing is punishing people who didn't "abuse the exploit," and thus still need old gear. That'd be like if they lowered dynamis armor drop rates instead of raising it a couple years ago. Why even bother?

I only used 100% physical immunity on Alfard, and even then to save money. (90% resistance was enough but I had to throw about 3 dozen 25k a stack biscuits per fight to do so because razed ruin is unremovable. Alfard takes less than 20 damage from non critical hits.) Nothing else really opened up once I got 100% immunity. All the other NM's I couldn't kill at 80% or 90% were still unsoloable because the vast majority of NM's in abyssea cast magic, have magical WS's, have strong endamage effects, have 100-300 damage poison/bio auras, or have outright Death/doom.

So why nerf it if it doesn't solve the problem, does nothing but piss people off, and over an event we won't even be doing anymore soon? It's not like BST is able to kill pandemonium warden while other people can't. We're doing solo what anyone else can do duo, and doing so less well as punishment already.

[Runespider]

C. Rage woudn't change a thing and i doubt they would ever put depop timers on normal NMs.

30 min to kill or depop, if time becomes an issue and lots have to wait they will do it.


So why nerf it if it doesn't solve the problem, does nothing but piss people off, and over an event we won't even be doing anymore soon? It's not like BST is able to kill pandemonium warden while other people can't. We're doing solo what anyone else can do duo, and doing so less well as punishment already.

So why do you care so much if you won't be doing it soon. If others have to duo, so should bst. Take 2 bst and duo it, problem solved.

[Arcon]

It is entirely about kill speed. The complaint was that BST were holding monsters for a really long time in order to solo it, and that made Ilax mess up his beloved schedule.

Wrong, again. It never was about killspeed, it never was about Ilax, just because he started the thread it doesn't even mean it has anything to do with the problem. The problem is, that players shouldn't be able to avoid a whole class of damage by simply doing nothing at all, that's it. It's not even related to BST in particular, if that happened to PLD, it would be just as wrong.

Also, nothing will take longer in the first place. Replace one PDT Atma with Regen Atma, same deal, you'll still be nearly invincible and have still the same other Atmas, so no loss, no gain.

Your "dead event" argument is also not really an argument, because Abyssea is far from dead, and even if it was, it would still be no argument. What about Dynamis? Dynamis has been what you call "dead" for a while, yet they gave it a major revamp last update. It does solve a problem, it only pisses a fraction of people off, less so than 90% of the other things they did recently, and it is still relevant.

[Louispv]

Wrong, again. It never was about killspeed, it never was about Ilax, just because he started the thread it doesn't even mean it has anything to do with the problem. The problem is, that players shouldn't be able to avoid a whole class of damage by simply doing nothing at all, that's it. It's not even related to BST in particular, if that happened to PLD, it would be just as wrong.
Why is that wrong?

[Arcon]

Why is that wrong?

Ask SE, they're fixing it.

[blowfin]

Ask SE, they're fixing it.

What are they fixing, exactly?

[Arcon]

What are they fixing, exactly?

The fact that a pets, wyverns and automatons may become invincible under certain circumstances.

[Xilk]

The fact that a pets, wyverns and automatons may become invincible under certain circumstances.
do you seriously not understand the question? is just that "Brawndo's got what the body needs!"

dang, I didn't post my response 2 hours ago... gonna have to summarize.

this is the point I was trying to discuss before.

Why is it wrong to have 100%-pdt? There is no book of orthodoxy. SE is not God decreeing commandmants for players, they are just the gods of vana'diel tweaking the world which is their sandbox.
It is entirely what is intended by SE and what is acceptable to SE and players (what keeps players playing or sends them cancelling accounts and raging). Abyssea breaks all kinds of game mechanics. its a playground for it. In order to examine if its broken or not you should really take a look at the practical impact of it. Examine some details. I don't think its any more unbalancing than at least 1/2 of what abyssea has.

Its less of a discussion now. SE say they are 'fixing' it. We'll see what they do. The offensive part was that this would be a response to a player rant thread, but upon examination I found there actually WAS a bug report thread regarding this issue 2 days before the rant. I find that a little reassuring, but it doesn't really convince me one way or the other as to why SE is addressing it now.

Players expected something when smn was changed, but the effects on smn were so strange and the solution didn't fit the theories (hp activation at 100%, or was it guard damage reducing it to 0??) that it was believed that the trade offs made it a non-issue for bst. you really need to trade most of your offensive to do it, where smn really did not.

We'll see.

[Volkai]

Wrong, again. It never was about killspeed, it never was about Ilax, just because he started the thread it doesn't even mean it has anything to do with the problem. The problem is, that players shouldn't be able to avoid a whole class of damage by simply doing nothing at all, that's it. It's not even related to BST in particular, if that happened to PLD, it would be just as wrong.

Why is that wrong?
What is Invincible? It's effectively -100% PDT for 30 seconds, once every two hours.

So look at this -100% PDT thing this way: Beastmaster's Pets can be given the effect of Invincible with no time restriction or cooldown.

Should a Stormwaker Automaton have perpetual Manafont? Should a Wyvern have perpetual Mighty Strikes? Should every Sharpshot Automaton's attack be an Eagle Eye Shot? Would it be okay if Pets got perpetual Perfect Dodge? How about Hundred Fists? Should a Valoredge Automaton have a Blood Weapon that never ends? Should every Light Elemental's Cure be a Benediction?

[Greatguardian]

Even if there wasn't a bug report, there's nothing wrong with information on potential glitches being gleaned from retarded complaint threads. Imagine this:

New Thread: "Ugh these groups tripling their Salvage drops using a glitch is BS!"

Do the Com and Dev teams really care that much about one person's angry ranting? Probably not. I sure as hell don't. Does a thread like that bring to their attention the fact that something may not be working as intended? Most definitely. The end result may be them fixing Salvage duping, but that doesn't mean they did it because someone was whining about it.

Edit: As a parallel that I think really should be explored more, a huge number of people involved in the Salvage Bans also claimed that they were "Completely Justified" in using the glitch because "Salvage drop rates were too low to begin with", "You had to get a piece to drop before you could dupe it so they still had to do work", and "If they remove it, people will just take longer to complete their Salvage sets".

Herp derp just because something doesn't suit you (Whether it's Salvage drop rates or Bst's utility in Abyssea), using a glitch is totally okay because it "makes up for the bad system". For all the hate the Salvage Banned got, you guys are using the exact same arguments they did when it was discovered.

[GlobalVariable]

People making those "thing X makes up for thing Y" arguments are effectively undermining anyone else trying to defend high pdt. /grumble

[Gratinao]

I made this replay in one other Thread and it fits here to so here it is

If you going to take away -100% PDT for pets you need to take it away for any class that can get it and on the same note take away super high Evasion where some classes all most never get hit. PLD can get Magic and Physical damage taken to -100% its not hard atma Earth Wyrm, Ducal Guard and Zeuith = -70% damage taken 30% more is not hard to get. So if you do not want to put in the work you self to get there don't dump on the ones that are will to do it.

[GlobalVariable]

I made this replay in one other Thread and it fits here to so here it is

If you going to take away -100% PDT for pets you need to take it away for any class that can get it and on the same note take away super high Evasion where some classes all most never get hit. PLD can get Magic and Physical damage taken to -100% its not hard atma Earth Wyrm, Ducal Guard and Zeuith = -70% damage taken 30% more is not hard to get. So if you do not want to put in the work you self to get there don't dump on the ones that are will to do it.
Players normally cap at 50% and it takes other special abilities to avoid or reduce the damage further, such as shield blocks phalanx or guard.

If all my pets had such abilities and were buff-able like players and could /nin for shadows I might be able to say 50% was a fair number, but this deficit does not excuse 100%.

I didn't even know I could get magic damage to zero as well until recently, because that would require an atma combination I would never use including one that as I understand it wasn't working correctly until recently. The only damage would be slip damage with that combination if I correctly understood the person telling me. This change could easily be about that specific atma combination.

[Greatguardian]

Accuracy has a 20% floor so no matter how much evasion you have, you will never evade more than 80% of attacks. That's still less than the Avatar PDT cap of 87.5%

PLD (or anyone else) can't break the 50% PDT/MDT barrier without a Relic Shield and/or a Mythic Sword. Even then, I do not believe it has been shown that they can break 90% (approx) MDT or PDT. It is very likely that they are simply capped at 87.5% now with Aegis and Burtgang.

Edit: Beaten

[Xilk]

Accuracy has a 20% floor so no matter how much evasion you have, you will never evade more than 80% of attacks. That's still less than the Avatar PDT cap of 87.5%

PLD (or anyone else) can't break the 50% PDT/MDT barrier without a Relic Shield and/or a Mythic Sword. Even then, I do not believe it has been shown that they can break 90% (approx) MDT or PDT. It is very likely that they are simply capped at 87.5% now with Aegis and Burtgang.

Edit: Beaten

but how does the thf compare to the smn this way? is avatar always going to trump thf or dnc or nin?

[Greatguardian]

but how does the thf compare to the smn this way? is avatar always going to trump thf or dnc or nin?

Who cares about trumping? Some jobs are obviously better at things than others. The fact of the matter is, though, that no one can evade more than 80% of attacks. 80% is less than 100%. It is less than 90%. It is 80%.

Being a shit-tier job is not an excuse for glitched game mechanics.

Salvage drop rates being ass was not an excuse for duping them.

[Aldersyde]

Ask SE, they're fixing it.

It's absolutely adorable you think SE will give us an answer to a question simply because we ask.

SE answers whatever they feel like answering. Official forums really haven't changed their secretive nature. They're extremely selective about what they're going to address here. For example, the bst forums has a thread that's been around for a couple of months which addresses whether charm is going to be useful again and asks to a lesser degree why charm isn't usable in Abyssea. Another thread suggests that jugpets be zoned with the master like wyverns and automatons. These are pertinent issues for bsts but neither has received any kind of acknowledgment from the devs here. On the other hand, the thread asking for different wyvern colors at least got a response on why it couldn't be implemented. I'd like to see a response to the charm question at least, since it is, or it was earlier in the game's life, bst's job defining ability.

I'm still interested in why this issue wasn't addressed when avatars were fixed as well. Seems that most of the frustration from this upcoming patch is because a lot of bsts believed this was working as intended since it wasn't fixed before. Again, is it really too much to expect SE to know the mechanics of pet jobs that they created? If one kind of pet job was messed up, isn't there adequate grounds to speculate that all of them may be messed up?

I'm not trying to justify 100% pet pdt. I just want some acknowledgment that SE holds bst concerns at least in the same light as Maat's scary teeth or the backwards-facing beetle's foot; that is, if at all.

[GlobalVariable]

You mean Cid's evil choppers of DOOM (http://i56.tinypic.com/t87seg.png) not Maat's teeth.

[Metal]

So to silence all the whiners SE has (as usual) just completely nerfed BST by not allowing Atma's to transfer over to pets.... Check it yourself Atma's no longer transfer over to pets as of today

This is your fix? so since you have taken it upon yourself to satisfy the whinners and now have made the BST job completely useless in parties and now solo I would like to request my money back for all three Abyssea exp.

Why?

BST is a solo based job so all the work BST's in general have put into DG and PDT gear in general for use in Abyssea no longer have any effect.

A well thought out solution (to your oversight) would have been to reduce the effect within reason, make Pet WS's such as Spiral Spin, Sheep Charge and a few others to be a part of the necessary proc's, in essence making BST's an integral part (as other jobs) of Abyssea.

But as we have seen in the past (even under the new development team) is to simply take the quick easy fix for your own blunders. So how many pet based jobs complaining will it take to implement a proper fix...50 80 100 it appears from the threads I have read approx 30-40 whiners gets you off your butt.

Or should the collective pet based jobs simply ask for their money back as we bought the expansions under the assumption that PDT gear and the corresponding Atama's would allow us to continue to play the job as intended/designed...solo

BTW you do realize that the above constitutes "Bait and Switch" which in most countries is illegal so requesting our money back would be within our legal realms...get your lawyers to check that one out

~Metal~

[Metal]

So to silence all the whiners SE has (as usual) just completely nerfed BST by not allowing Atma's to transfer over to pets.... Check it yourself Atma's no longer transfer over to pets as of today

This is your fix? so since you have taken it upon yourself to satisfy the whinners and now have made the BST job completely useless in parties and now solo I would like to request my money back for all three Abyssea exp.

Why?

BST is a solo based job so all the work BST's in general have put into DG and PDT gear in general for use in Abyssea no longer have any effect.

A well thought out solution (to your oversight) would have been to reduce the effect within reason, make Pet WS's such as Spiral Spin, Sheep Charge and a few others to be a part of the necessary proc's, in essence making BST's an integral part (as other jobs) of Abyssea.

But as we have seen in the past (even under the new development team) is to simply take the quick easy fix for your own blunders. So how many pet based jobs complaining will it take to implement a proper fix...50 80 100 it appears from the threads I have read approx 30-40 whiners gets you off your butt.

Or should the collective pet based jobs simply ask for their money back as we bought the expansions under the assumption that PDT gear and the corresponding Atama's would allow us to continue to play the job as intended/designed...solo

BTW you do realize that the above constitutes "Bait and Switch" which in most countries is illegal so requesting our money back would be within our legal realms...get your lawyers to check that one out

~Metal~

[Arcon]

It's absolutely adorable you think SE will give us an answer to a question simply because we ask.

I don't think that, just saying if they feel like fixing it, they obviously think there's something wrong with it.

[GlobalVariable]

Check it yourself Atma's no longer transfer over to pets as of todayHuh? I don't see any version update or maintenance announcement showing this occurred and I can't go check for myself in game right now. If true that is just crazy.

[Greatguardian]

Oh boy. The "We can sue SE for changes they made in their video gamez" argument has come out. Everyone hit the deck.

[Dallas]

EDIT: I'm going to retract this until I check the atma situation.

[Arcon]

Huh? I don't see any version update or maintenance announcement showing this occurred and I can't go check for myself in game right now. If true that is just crazy.

It's not true.

[Aldersyde]

So to silence all the whiners SE has (as usual) just completely nerfed BST by not allowing Atma's to transfer over to pets.... Check it yourself Atma's no longer transfer over to pets as of today

This is your fix? so since you have taken it upon yourself to satisfy the whinners and now have made the BST job completely useless in parties and now solo I would like to request my money back for all three Abyssea exp.

Why?

What exactly doesn't work? I just went to test this with my pet with RR/MC/AoA and it's still regening and it still has enhanced crit hit damage.

[Aldersyde]

I don't think that, just saying if they feel like fixing it, they obviously think there's something wrong with it.

Then say that instead of just being obtuse.

[GlobalVariable]

It's not true.
What exactly doesn't work? I just went to test this with my pet with RR/MC/AoA and it's still regening and it still has enhanced crit hit damage.
Thats what I thought. I don't recall ever having things changed without an update or maint and I don't recall either of those not having an accompanying entry in pol's news thingy.

[Dallas]

If it's anything like the SMN nerf, BST will still be hogging NMs and making people cry. You guys will find a way to make it happen!

[Aldersyde]

If it's anything like the SMN nerf, BST will still be hogging NMs and making people cry. You guys will find a way to make it happen!

Gotterdammerung's shasra/bio technique gave me a chuckle. Someone should do it at least once on Fenrir.

[Khiinroye]

Plenty of rdms have done that to plenty of mobs, we don't need to see that, thanks.

[Korpg]

Ilax didn't even provide any proof that what he claims happened at Hedjedjed actually happened. And I'm still waiting for an explanation on how a pup soloed Dragua when the mob's AoE is range is huge, it's not physically based, and a mage puppet has way less hp than a jug pet.

Since when does the uninformed need any proof to make bold claims as Ilax has done?

[Swords]

As I mentioned in another thread, each job that has had a history of great solo capabilities always seems to have a following that likes to cry Nerf. Throwing -pdt aside for a second and taking a lonnnng hard look at what people fight in abyssea, now think what kills you more than anything in abyssea...

A. Physical Damage.
B. Magical Damage.
C. DoT.
D. Doom, Death, Critical/1 HP moves.

I don't know about the rest of you but 95% of the time I tend to die more from B-D playing on MNK or RNG, of which all pets are susceptible too and all can die from. The -100% pdt really has a limited uses and it's honestly hard to argue that it's overpowering when there are RDM, BLM, BLU, WHM, MNK, THF, NIN, DNC, and other jobs out there that solo/duo most things BST can, and take just as much time to kill.

You can't really use a terrible drop rate or lack of triggers as an arguement either, most of the more difficult mobs that BST can solo have a 100% drop rate on at least one or two items. And taking into account what one of our BST friends mentioned earlier when you got a group of 5-6 people competing for +2 items, taking account for the time it takes to get triggers, how many +2 items actually drop, and so on, one person getting all 6-9 of his +2 items solo is going to be faster than getting everyone 30+ of their +2 items.

And seeing how people love to bring up Hedjedjet as an example, I would like to state that I see more non-BST jobs trying to duo/solo him on any given day.

[Volkai]

...I would like to request my money back for all three Abyssea exp.
Yeah good luck with that.




Or should the collective pet based jobs simply ask for their money back as we bought the expansions under the assumption that PDT gear and the corresponding Atama's would allow us to continue to play the job as intended/designed...solo
Wow, you knew there would be -PDT Atma before you made the decision to buy Abyssea? You got into it late, didn't you?


BTW you do realize that the above constitutes "Bait and Switch" which in most countries is illegal so requesting our money back would be within our legal realms...get your lawyers to check that one out
HA! Good luck getting that one to hold up in court!

No but seriously I'd like to hear how you plan to get past all the contractual stuff that you agreed to when you made your account and make this stick. I'm sure it will make for a great read.

[Aldersyde]

Since when does the uninformed need any proof to make bold claims as Ilax has done?

True.....true. Sorry, I don't know what I was thinking.

[Xilk]

Who cares about trumping? Some jobs are obviously better at things than others. The fact of the matter is, though, that no one can evade more than 80% of attacks. 80% is less than 100%. It is less than 90%. It is 80%.

Being a shit-tier job is not an excuse for glitched game mechanics.

Salvage drop rates being ass was not an excuse for duping them.

100% spell interruption reduction.
+100% critical hit damage
+100% MAB

the number doesn't matter. the end result does. but feel free to keep watering your fields w/ Brawndo.

Also, there is no hierarchy of jobs. You might determine hierarchy for a specific task, if you set some benchmark to measure by, but that only compares 1 narrow item. The jobs in the game are not equal, and not meant to be. Hence, I cannot condone the attitude in calling something
a shit-tier job. there is a certain lack of credibility.

[Greatguardian]

If Bst is not a shit-tier job, tell that to every other Bst posting in these threads. They are supposedly more credible about the job than I am.

[Gotterdammerung]

You think its broke. (its not broke)

You think nerfing it will stop bsts from soloing, Freeing up your NMs for there rightful owners. (It wont stop us, it will only make it worse by increasing our solo times and our general disdain for you and your ilk.)

You think it undermines true tanks. (It doesnt. A lack of a need for a true tank caused the death of tank jobs.)

You think we should have expected this. (hell yes we expected it. But not because it was necessary or right. I personally expect this because fear, ignorance, jealousy, and impatience are all strong driving forces of humanity.)


Aside from that, Comparing 100% pet pdt to duping items is laughable. there not even close to the same. I explained b4. This wasnt a mistake. It was a side effect at best. Rather than invent a pet category with its own rules (i.e. player, pet, monster) SE chose to use the pre-existing monster rules for our pets. Our pets have always had the potential to have 100% pdt from day 1. They didnt have the ability to get pdt that high but even on day 1 pets never had a pdt cap. If its being changed, it is simply a change to the existing rules. Its not the same as figuring out a glitch that lets u multiply your treasure.

In closing, be prepared.
Be prepared for cutthroat relations between bsts and normals.
Be prepared for standing in line behind a hour and a half bst soloist, who will not be reasonable and team up with you.

And remember... you asked for it.

[Louispv]

How is it wrong though?

Is the BST able to kill things that are otherwise unkillable? No, everything we can solo is easily duoed or even soloed by other jobs. (For example, DNC and NIN can solo Alfard way easier than BST can. Shadows guarantee they can't be one shotted the second regen takes them from 50-51% hp.)

Is the BST killing things faster than anyone else with this technique? No in fact they're one of the slowest methods of soloing since you can use at most 1 and at worst no DD atmas.

Is BST somehow getting better drops with this method? Nope we've got next to no triggers and no enhanced treasure hunter.

So what is broken? Who is suffering? How is anyone negatively affected? What tank has been replaced by a sheep? What thief has been replaced with a ladybug? How can any fucking thing I'm doing solo affect you in any way?

Who cares about trumping? Some jobs are obviously better at things than others. The fact of the matter is, though, that no one can evade more than 80% of attacks. 80% is less than 100%. It is less than 90%. It is 80%.
Utsusemi says hi. So does counter. So does utsusemi, counter and 80% evasion combined. And the 3 dozen other ways you have to guarantee you tank never gets hit.

[Gotterdammerung]

What is Invincible? It's effectively -100% PDT for 30 seconds, once every two hours.

So look at this -100% PDT thing this way: Beastmaster's Pets can be given the effect of Invincible with no time restriction or cooldown.

Should a Stormwaker Automaton have perpetual Manafont? Should a Wyvern have perpetual Mighty Strikes? Should every Sharpshot Automaton's attack be an Eagle Eye Shot? Would it be okay if Pets got perpetual Perfect Dodge? How about Hundred Fists? Should a Valoredge Automaton have a Blood Weapon that never ends? Should every Light Elemental's Cure be a Benediction?

Wow. Did you realy just imply that emulating a 2hour is overpowered?

Stacking all available crit rate + gear and atmas is identical to what bst is doing. And it emulates mighty strikes...

Refresh gear and atmas gives the same effect in the end as manafont.

Everytime a melee manages to avoid dmg for 30 seconds they have emulated invicible and perfect dodge. Hell just utsi ni with decent evasion is almost the same effect as perfect dodge and it blocks spells as well.

Fast cast caps have recently been increased and that is getting dangerously close to 24/7 chainspell.

Nin and thf have both been pooping all over hundred fists for a while now. Dual wield haste triple atk double atk builds = full time 100 fists. (same thing bst is doing. Gear + JA + abyssea cheese = full time 2 hour)

ISL chests crap all over a cor's 2 hour. Revitalizer temp items from gold boxes even do a good job of making cor 2 hour obsolete.

Hell if ur sitting in town doing absoluetly nothing, you are emulating a bsts 2 hour. (thats right! all u bazaar mules are BROKEN!)

And the rest of the 2 hours are either useless or so specialized that they cant be copied.

I mean really? Based on your statement that emulating a constant 2 hour = unfair and broken, the entire of abyssea should be nerfed.

And thats just looking at things that = 2 hours. 2 hours arent even that strong conceptually anymore. There are things in abyssea that make 2 hour seem weak sauce. Atma of the Apoc makes a 2 hour look like crap. It basically gives a large group immortality and rewards risky unskilled play. Im actually gunna stop going down this angle. I dont agree with the whole "nerf everything that is awesome" attitude and if i sit here listing broke combos there will probly be new QQ threads popping up trying to get those poor people nerfed too.


So basically this nerf is saying its ok for everyone else to do it but not ok for bst to do it. Because when bst does it... its SOO BROKE. Even tho its been explained time and time again here in this forum that its not broke. Its completely on par with the power lvl of abyssea. It doesnt allow us to trigger more, kill faster, kill stuff u cant. Its not broke and its on par with everything else. But noooo we get our toys taken away...

[Faithful]

Wow. Did you realy just imply that emulating a 2hour is overpowered?

Stacking all available crit rate + gear and atmas is identical to what bst is doing. And it emulates mighty strikes...

Refresh gear and atmas gives the same effect in the end as manafont.

Everytime a melee manages to avoid dmg for 30 seconds they have emulated invicible and perfect dodge. Hell just utsi ni with decent evasion is almost the same effect as perfect dodge and it blocks spells as well.

Fast cast caps have recently been increased and that is getting dangerously close to 24/7 chainspell.

Nin and thf have both been pooping all over hundred fists for a while now. Dual wield haste triple atk double atk builds = full time 100 fists. (same thing bst is doing. Gear + JA + abyssea cheese = full time 2 hour)

ISL chests crap all over a cor's 2 hour. Revitalizer temp items from gold boxes even do a good job of making cor 2 hour obsolete.

Hell if ur sitting in town doing absoluetly nothing, you are emulating a bsts 2 hour. (thats right! all u bazaar mules are BROKEN!)

And the rest of the 2 hours are either useless or so specialized that they cant be copied.

I mean really? Based on your statement that emulating a constant 2 hour = unfair and broken, the entire of abyssea should be nerfed.

And thats just looking at things that = 2 hours. 2 hours arent even that strong conceptually anymore. There are things in abyssea that make 2 hour seem weak sauce. Atma of the Apoc makes a 2 hour look like crap. It basically gives a large group immortality and rewards risky unskilled play. Im actually gunna stop going down this angle. I dont agree with the whole "nerf everything that is awesome" attitude and if i sit here listing broke combos there will probly be new QQ threads popping up trying to get those poor people nerfed too.


So basically this nerf is saying its ok for everyone else to do it but not ok for bst to do it. Because when bst does it... its SOO BROKE. Even tho its been explained time and time again here in this forum that its not broke. Its completely on par with the power lvl of abyssea. It doesnt allow us to trigger more, kill faster, kill stuff u cant. Its not broke and its on par with everything else. But noooo we get our toys taken away...

Very well put and I totally agree. If Bst get their Abyssea toys taken away then every job should have their broken Aby toys removed.

[Komori]

I agree, if BST gets nerfed, then everyone else should as well.

[Khiinroye]

Everyone can use /pup, and use charm as /bst. Just because they can't use jugpets and reach -100% pdt, doesn't mean that a cap won't apply to them. Congratulations, everyone else got the same nerf you're getting.

[Greatguardian]

You think its broke. (its not broke)

Yes it is

You think nerfing it will stop bsts from soloing, Freeing up your NMs for there rightful owners. (It wont stop us, it will only make it worse by increasing our solo times and our general disdain for you and your ilk.)

No, I don't. That's Ilax, not me.

You think it undermines true tanks. (It doesnt. A lack of a need for a true tank caused the death of tank jobs.)

Lol what?

You think we should have expected this. (hell yes we expected it. But not because it was necessary or right. I personally expect this because fear, ignorance, jealousy, and impatience are all strong driving forces of humanity.)

I think it's always a safer bet not to put all your eggs into a basket with questionable survivability.


Aside from that, Comparing 100% pet pdt to duping items is laughable. there not even close to the same. I explained b4. This wasnt a mistake. It was a side effect at best. Rather than invent a pet category with its own rules (i.e. player, pet, monster) SE chose to use the pre-existing monster rules for our pets. Our pets have always had the potential to have 100% pdt from day 1. They didnt have the ability to get pdt that high but even on day 1 pets never had a pdt cap. If its being changed, it is simply a change to the existing rules. Its not the same as figuring out a glitch that lets u multiply your treasure.

Would you prefer it to be called an unintentional side-effect of allowing the transfer of Atma to pets?

In closing, be prepared.
Be prepared for cutthroat relations between bsts and normals.
Be prepared for standing in line behind a hour and a half bst soloist, who will not be reasonable and team up with you.

And remember... you asked for it.

This last part just makes me lol. Oh hey guys, BST so angsty, we gonn' grief err'body up in here cuz they reported our toy. Tell you what. Despite the fact that I am not Ilax, and could not give a crap less about Bst solo'ing, go ahead and come to Cerberus and stalk me. Solo every NM I want to pop before I get to it. It does not bother me. Why? Because I really, absolutely do not care if someone is self-righteous or just unlikable enough to choose a 90 minute solo with no procs over just killing 20~ NMs with one single friend in the same amount of time (yes, even on BST).

[Khiinroye]

You think its broke. (its not broke)


You think its not broken. It is.



You think nerfing it will stop bsts from soloing, Freeing up your NMs for there rightful owners. (It wont stop us, it will only make it worse by increasing our solo times and our general disdain for you and your ilk.)


You're the only one who thinks we think that. None of us think that.



You think it undermines true tanks. (It doesnt. A lack of a need for a true tank caused the death of tank jobs.)


No, we think that the fact that other jobs tank better than tank jobs undermined tank jobs. You're the only one who thinks we think that.



You think we should have expected this. (hell yes we expected it. But not because it was necessary or right. I personally expect this because fear, ignorance, jealousy, and impatience are all strong driving forces of humanity.)


You admit that beastmasters expected it. The rest of them expected it because it was broken, and you think its because of fear, ignorance, jealousy, and impatience.




Aside from that, Comparing 100% pet pdt to duping items is laughable. there not even close to the same. I explained b4. This wasnt a mistake. It was a side effect at best. Rather than invent a pet category with its own rules (i.e. player, pet, monster) SE chose to use the pre-existing monster rules for our pets. Our pets have always had the potential to have 100% pdt from day 1. They didnt have the ability to get pdt that high but even on day 1 pets never had a pdt cap. If its being changed, it is simply a change to the existing rules. Its not the same as figuring out a glitch that lets u multiply your treasure.


What about my comparison to the bard nerf where carol 2s were giving 100% resistance to their element with the set bonus of empyrean +2? You conveniently ignored that fact, and that was one that required a lot of work to be able to pull off, and helped on more limited selection of mobs than your -100% pdt.

There was no differentiation between pets and monsters on day 1 because there was NO NEED FOR IT. As you admit, there was no way to get that high for players. Did you expect the developers to think "Oh, 8 or 9 years down the road, a different development team will provide a bonus that will allow pets to reach -100% pdt and -78% mdt simultaneously, but we're cool with them having that"? Or did they think "Hey, pets have the ability to reach -100% damage taken, but there's no way for them to even come close; heck, we don't even give them the ability to increase that, so we'll just leave it as is."



In closing, be prepared.
Be prepared for cutthroat relations between bsts and normals.
Be prepared for standing in line behind a hour and a half bst soloist, who will not be reasonable and team up with you.

And remember... you asked for it.

Who differentiates between bst and "normals" these days? Are you stuck in 2005? There are people who are slow who are bst, there are people who are slow who are not bst. There were people who refused to team up anyways. However, the more gimp among them had the option of, you know, actually taking damage and dying. Don't even bring up "some mobs are a lot harder, and need more than -100% pdt to kill" because guess what? Bad players died to them before, and will die to them after.


Wow. Did you realy just imply that emulating a 2hour is overpowered?

Stacking all available crit rate + gear and atmas is identical to what bst is doing. And it emulates mighty strikes...

Refresh gear and atmas gives the same effect in the end as manafont.

Everytime a melee manages to avoid dmg for 30 seconds they have emulated invicible and perfect dodge. Hell just utsi ni with decent evasion is almost the same effect as perfect dodge and it blocks spells as well.

Fast cast caps have recently been increased and that is getting dangerously close to 24/7 chainspell.

Nin and thf have both been pooping all over hundred fists for a while now. Dual wield haste triple atk double atk builds = full time 100 fists. (same thing bst is doing. Gear + JA + abyssea cheese = full time 2 hour)

ISL chests crap all over a cor's 2 hour. Revitalizer temp items from gold boxes even do a good job of making cor 2 hour obsolete.

Hell if ur sitting in town doing absoluetly nothing, you are emulating a bsts 2 hour. (thats right! all u bazaar mules are BROKEN!)

And the rest of the 2 hours are either useless or so specialized that they cant be copied.

I mean really? Based on your statement that emulating a constant 2 hour = unfair and broken, the entire of abyssea should be nerfed.

And thats just looking at things that = 2 hours. 2 hours arent even that strong conceptually anymore. There are things in abyssea that make 2 hour seem weak sauce. Atma of the Apoc makes a 2 hour look like crap. It basically gives a large group immortality and rewards risky unskilled play. Im actually gunna stop going down this angle. I dont agree with the whole "nerf everything that is awesome" attitude and if i sit here listing broke combos there will probly be new QQ threads popping up trying to get those poor people nerfed too.


So basically this nerf is saying its ok for everyone else to do it but not ok for bst to do it. Because when bst does it... its SOO BROKE. Even tho its been explained time and time again here in this forum that its not broke. Its completely on par with the power lvl of abyssea. It doesnt allow us to trigger more, kill faster, kill stuff u cant. Its not broke and its on par with everything else. But noooo we get our toys taken away...

People from day 1 have said that atma of the Razed Ruins is overpowered, but guess what? Everyone can use it, and does, because it is broken. If it gets nerfed, people will whine, but say that they're surprised it took so long.

Even with refresh atmas, I run out of mp on blm all the time; even on whm, where casting costs are much lower, I've run low on mp a few times. There's really not all that much fast cast gear available to jobs to get to quickcasting 100% of the time. We're not going to set all our atmas for that, either, since the refresh helps a lot more.

Hundred fists has been a weak 2hour ability for a long time now. All it does is let them swap out haste gear for attack / str gear.

Yes, cor's 2hr isn't spectacular in abyssea. Outside of abyssea, however, its still quite powerful.

Standing in town forces an IT charmed mob who would turn on you in 10 seconds to stay with you for 30 minutes? And gives it stat boosts? News to me.

The rest of the 2hrs can't be copied--except for Invincible on pets.

Not taking damage is the same as perfect dodge or invincible? Pull 50 non-casting mobs (not mandies; let's use the marids in uleguerand) with one set of shadows. How many hits do you absorb / reduce to 0 in 30 seconds? I'm guessing around 3. PD and Invincible will stop ALL of them. Your pet would take 0 damage from ALL of them. After 30 seconds, your utsusemi guy is dead, because he's been interrupted casting. Now, your Perfect dodge and Invincible guy have their 2 hours run out. And they die. However, your pet is still taking 0 damage.

So, because some 2hours are weaker than others, its ok to permanently have one of the stronger ones active? May I please get effect of Benediction every time I attack, cast, get attacked, or get cast on for my linkshell's tanks? I'd love to see
Mob casts silencega.
*list of people silenced*
*list of same people instantly getting cured to full and having status effects removed*

Bst gets haste gear and utsusemi. They can equip fastcast atmas. They can open ISL chests and use revitalizers. They get the same set of benefits as everyone else, and yet YOU ARE DEMANDING MORE.

[Swords]

Not taking damage is the same as perfect dodge or invincible? Pull 50 non-casting mobs (not mandies; let's use the marids in uleguerand) with one set of shadows. How many hits do you absorb / reduce to 0 in 30 seconds? I'm guessing around 3. PD and Invincible will stop ALL of them. Your pet would take 0 damage from ALL of them. After 30 seconds, your utsusemi guy is dead, because he's been interrupted casting. Now, your Perfect dodge and Invincible guy have their 2 hours run out. And they die. However, your pet is still taking 0 damage.


I highly doubt youd see a BST try something like that because a BST's pet is bound by the same hate system as monsters, meaning any one of those marids used in your example can cause the pet to swap targets. This actually works AGAINST a BST because the pet would not allow a BST to hold claim on any mob for a long period from target swapping, so ANYONE can just come up and steal a weakened mob defeating the purpose. It would be faster for a BST to just kill them one at a time.

Secondly this sounds more like a Fell Cleave example which is pretty moot considering I see THF, DNC, WAR, BLMs, and other jobs soloing/duoing this already.

Third the arguement is pretty flawed in itself, because the main factor people are complaining about is BST's soloing NM's for exaggerated periods of time. But problem with this arguement is other jobs can solo the same mobs taking just as much time as any BST would.

If SE was looking for a real solution to the real problem, which is soloing a NM for extended periods of time, they should just apt a rage timer on all Abyssea NM's where once a certain time has passed the NM bypasses all forms of damage mitigation, evasion, shadows, counter, ect. Pets will get eaten, THFs will get stomped, DNC will have their legs broken, RDMs will be torn asunder, MNK's will be pounded, and so on.

[Greatguardian]

If SE was looking for a real solution to the real problem, which is soloing a NM for extended periods of time, they should just apt a rage timer on all Abyssea NM's where once a certain time has passed the NM bypasses all forms of damage mitigation, evasion, shadows, counter, ect. Pets will get eaten, THFs will get stomped, DNC will have their legs broken, RDMs will be torn asunder, MNK's will be pounded, and so on.

I feel like these are two separate problems. However, I do agree with the implementation of a rage timer. Seeing tard-tier NIN+WAR+WHM+BLM groups take 30+ minutes to kill Carabosse when I can duo dualbox (2 players, 4 accounts, MNK THFmule WHM BRDmule, laptops ahoy) her in 5 minutes pisses me off to no end, it's not a problem limited to BSTs.

[Malamasala]

The game is filled with balance issues. Yet, it is only the ones that people are annoyed at others having that get fixed.

Take fell cleave for example, which is incredibly unbalanced, but fine since it means all your party members get exp faster. BST invulnerable pets though, makes killing NMs slower, so it is a bothersome issue and needs patching.

This is why subjob cures being max potency has been accepted all these years. While it is unbalanced and let non-healers heal, it benefited others so they were happy and didn't complain.

Keeping these things in mind, you just know that an unkillable PLD (that does not solo NMs) would be really popular. Summoners with 1 min recast on Astral Flow would be popular. Any broken content that means YOU will gain exp faster, or kill NMs faster is completely acceptable in all cases. You won't be surprised when SE patches it though, but you'll take what you can get.

Which is just what I wanted to have said about the concept of "broken" content. It is only broken if it bothers enough people to whine on a forum. (Like RNGs having uncapped damage, and then being nerfed)

Real broken content is stuff like "no mobs to charm" and "Only about 4 sets of armors per pet job" or "Incorrect cure and -na spell AI" and my favorite, "spirits not casting spells due to assault command". But all these real issues are kept in the dark because there won't be any WARs, SAMs, WHMs or any other super popular jobs complaining about them.

[Greatguardian]

Assuming BST and SMN need -100% PDT to do anything or be useful is, and let me give this its own line for emphasis,

The most absolutely wrong, counter-productive, masochistic, foundation-smashing thing you could possible say about pet jobs.

All 3 pet jobs are powerful DDs in their own right. Would I take one with me for low-man Empyrean farming? Hell no. Would the average population benefit from having a good BST/SMN/PUP around when they need Brews to kill freaking Resheph? You bet your ass they will. Each of the pet jobs is capable of powerful solos without the use of PDT atmas or Ducal Guard anyways, as they were doing this long before Heroes was released and killing things ten times faster. For Summoner in particular, you only hurt yourself by giving up a DD atma to rely on lolDG.

As for the nerf of Petvincible, you guys are not helping your case with the player base at all by crying so hard about it. What do you think everyone thought of PUP when they shed a Noah's flood of tears over Burritos? Obviously they're freaking useless without Burritos if they're crying so hard, amirite?

How about this: Remove Razed Ruins. What would happen? Would you be happy because then everyone is "useless"? Guess what, I'd still be pulling 4k+ Victory Smites and taking all your invite slots. I would still be useful even without my most powerful atma. Why? Because I'm not pretending to be a one-hit wonder. Bst has plenty of things going for it despite its disadvantages in Abyssea (herp like people have used Charm in endgame since Despot).

Ducal Guard hasn't made you more wanted while it's intact. It's not going to make you less wanted if it's removed.

[Gotterdammerung]

If you don't like waiting your turn for NMs then how about getting some skill and learn to claim/pop them faster. You would think that since ur leet with ur 5 minute kills you would have the skill to outclaim anyone. This is what bothers me about non pvp games. It breeds spoiled players who are scared of any competition. Is this an MMO or a console game? I'm pretty sure its an MMO. You keep thinking that "since i kill faster i deserve to kill all the NMs whenever im ready to fight them and no one should stand in my way." When in actuality the person who "deserves" the NM is the one who had the skill to claim it b4 you.



And Khiinroye i didnt "conveniently ignore" anything. I stopped responding to your posts on principle.

#1 i dont feel your responses threaten my points. And since my goal in posting is to get a clear message to the dev team, you are not a threat. If you make a valid point and i feel it holds merit i will agree with you on it. If you make a reasonable argument i will respond to it, as it could threaten my position if left unanswered. But based on your current contribution to this discussion, i am content to ignore you.

#2 I don't care for your debate etiquette.


But since you asked i will respond to your Bard Supposition.

All Carol II's state "Increases resistance against X and sometimes nullifies X damage for party members within area of effect" where X = the element of the Carol II you cast.

From this statement we can clearly see original intent.

Extra resistance all the time.

Complete negation some of the time.

Therefore : If the effect becomes

Extra resistance all the time AND complete negation of damage all the time, it is clearly outside the original intent of the skills parameters.

It was clearly an unintended mistake.

This is completely different from the bst situation. And therefore unrelated.

Not to mention this combo was infinitely stronger.

Magic damage is more of a threat than physical against abyssea NMs. When magic immunity and high status resistance is added by the proper carol II's to a high DD job designed to avoid physical dmg (nin and thf are good examples) or to a high hp threshhold job who can easily withstand the predictable physical dmg (war and mnk good examples), you get an unstoppable combination that turns a nasty NM into a puppy dog. And you do this without ANY sacrifices to kill speed.

[Greatguardian]

Having killed literally everything in Abyssea, I would have to disagree with Magic damage being a bigger threat than physical damage. The only spell worth a shit in Abyssea is Rani's Meteor.

Coincidentally, BST doesn't get 100% PDT with 0% MDT on their pets either. The last I checked, a good -DT build was rocking at least 50-70% MDT to go along with 100% PDT. At least, that's what has been claimed by BSTs in these threads here. So it's not like they're taking thousands of points of magic damage either.

Inafter Claiming takes skill, uJelly, uScurred, etc. The next time my skill affects the speed at which ???s appear on anyone's client, let me know. Skill is not taking an hour to kill a Visions-level NM.

[Khiinroye]

Here's a post from the FFXI AH thread, by a bst, detailing just how easy it is for 100% pdt AND mdt.



Ducal Guard/Winged Gloom/Razed Ruin or Mounted
+ferine legs
+Shepherd
+MKE Helm
=
-100% DT (That's MDT/PDT) Making you invincible.

How does that work you say?

When your pets health is between 25-50% health your invincible. At 50% it takes approx 1.5mins to get your pet down to 25% with the slip dmg from winged gloom. So you reward to 50% and wait. Regen from food slows the slip damage and you get to reward every 2min.

If you use mounted champion and regen on MKE head you can go 9mins before you need to reward.


0 damage taken from magic or physical sources, with less work to achieve than your previously claimed equipment set. One weak Reward every 9 minutes. How is that not broken?


The bard glitch only worked for water or stone magic damage, meaning Cuelebre was the only thing that couldn't harm you. Glavoid still had physical attacks. Sedna is lol without it. Nothing else was affected by it, and thus the scope was far less than that of the pet -dt exploit.

Edits: The quoted post was made 4 days ago, in a thread you posted in, on the page before your post, so you obviously already knew this.

You don't care for my debate etiquette, but you compared everyone who is disagrees with you members of the KKK in your first post. Oh, right, also your "you don't decide what's important, I do, so shut up" argument in your first response to me. Then you go on to tell us how we think, and threaten to make the lives of normies hell if you don't get your way. Great etiquette there.

[Gotterdammerung]

Here's a post from the FFXI AH thread, by a bst, detailing just how easy it is for 100% pdt AND mdt.



0 damage taken from magic or physical sources, with less work to achieve than your previously claimed equipment set. One weak Reward every 9 minutes. How is that not broken?


The bard glitch only worked for water or stone magic damage, meaning Cuelebre was the only thing that couldn't harm you. Glavoid still had physical attacks. Sedna is lol without it. Nothing else was affected by it, and thus the scope was far less than that of the pet -dt exploit.

Edits: The quoted post was made 4 days ago, in a thread you posted in, on the same page, before your post, so you obviously already knew this.

You don't care for my debate etiquette, but you compared everyone who is disagrees with you members of the KKK in your first post. Oh, right, also your "you don't decide what's important, I do, so shut up" argument in your first response to me. Then you go on to tell us how we think, and threaten to make the lives of normies hell if you don't get your way. Great etiquette there.


Winged gloom is crap for bst. Much more suited for pup. If you actually had first hand experience with what your talking about, you might already know this. Problem with mathing everything out from a distance with 2nd hand info is you lose out on unmentioned variables or make miscalculations from misinformation. In other words, you don't know what your talking about.

Also, i did not say everyone opposed to me was a member of the KKK no more than i implied that everyone agreeing with me was an African American.

Analogy (from Greek "ἀναλογία" – analogia, "proportion") is a cognitive process of transferring information or meaning from a particular subject (the analogue or source) to another particular subject (the target), and a linguistic expression corresponding to such a process. In a narrower sense, analogy is an inference or an argument from one particular to another particular, as opposed to deduction, induction, and abduction, where at least one of the premises or the conclusion is general. The word analogy can also refer to the relation between the source and the target themselves, which is often, though not necessarily, a similarity, as in the biological notion of analogy.

The whole point of an analogy is that the source and the target are 2 different things. Otherwise, there would be no point. Its actually interesting that you thought i called everyone a racist. And further supports my decision to ignore you.

In the other post i didn't say "i decide whats important, not you." I stated that because my pet is a monster type, It can not receive support from the majority of player spells and JA's. This is a fact. I then stated that this fact is a negative consequence of being a monster type. Also a fact.

You tried to argue this fact by stating that a bst is fighting solo and there aren't any useful player spells or JA's that a solo bst could use to benefit his pet.

This is ridiculous. Firstly, bst does not ALWAYS solo. Secondly, there are many sub job abilities and spells that would be extremely useful to bst IF said bst could target his pet with them. And here lies the source of my rebuttal.

In my rebuttal i was trying to explain that your inability to realize and deduct the valuable JA's and spells a bst could utilize, assuming all Ja's and spells could target pets, has rendered your judgment questionable. And therefore, i stated that you need not worry about doing my thinking for me. Because I don't trust your cognitive ability.

As for "telling you how you think." If i make a statement , "You are wearing red pants." There are 3 possibilities pertaining to the accuracy of this statement and how it affects you personally.

#1 You are wearing red pants.

#2 you are not wearing red pants.

#3 The pronoun in the statement was intended to indicate another person, who may be wearing red pants. (i.e. I'm not talking to you.)


Apply #3 to our scenario.

If the definitive statement does not apply to you, then isn't it possible that you weren't its intended target?



And lastly, you accuse me of threatening you. I did not threaten anyone. I spoke to the psychological affect this Nerf will have on the community. And predicted the affect that it will have on relationships within that community.

A threat would of been "if this gets nerfed i will kill you all" What i said was not a threat. It was an observation + a prediction.

[Louispv]

0 damage taken from magic or physical sources, with less work to achieve than your previously claimed equipment set. One weak Reward every 9 minutes. How is that not broken?

Because then you are completely incapable of killing the enemy. It can't kill you, but it is also invincible. Without razed ruin I hit alfard for 0-12ish and yuly hits him for 10-30. Alfard has 85,000~ hp. If you never ever miss, (which you will because pets have about 75-80% acc, and so do you because of the pet gear) and you're hitting for those max damages (which your not because your attacks do 0 and your crits do considerably less for 10~ seconds after he ws's) you MIGHT be able to kill him if you can get 120 minutes when you enter and pop him within a minute of entering the zone. If you're lucky.

And that's forgetting that if your reward or regen ever takes the pet to 51% hp, a triple attack or a ws can kill your pet in one round and kill you outright. And the fact that you somehow have to deal with that hp-30/tick on yourself as well. Or that you can easily pull hate off your pet and eat that ws or triple attack yourself, making the invincible pet useless. (there is after all, a hate cap, and this is a very long fight.

And Alfard's one of the weaker nm's you use this kind of set up on. Like I said, I rarely ever used 100% immunity, because it wasn't broken. It was pretty rarely even useful. So why freaking remove it. It's rarely done and not hurting anyone.

[Greatguardian]

Because it's 100% immunity. If it's rarely done, no one ought to care that it's being removed.

[Louispv]

Because it's 100% immunity. If it's rarely done, no one ought to care that it's being removed.

Because it can kill anything in a few seconds, and people rarely ever have a bloodweapon/kraken club combo, I guess SE should remove all multihit weapons from DRK and no one should care.

You still haven't explained why 100% immunity is wrong from pages back. If It's so overpowered, how come Is till can't kill over half the stuff in abyssea?

For example, in the same zone, why can't I kill azdaja? Oh that's right, cause it can still kill me and ignore my pet entirely. Why can't I kill bukhis? Oh yeah because of doom. Why can't I kill Rasheph? Because his attacks just ignore the immunity anyway. Why can't I kill the skeleton for BST head seals/or the nm tonberries in khonschtat? Oh yeah because of Death. The imp for BST hands? Oh yeah because of the 200 hp/tick bio aura. Why does Hrosshalvur beat me about as often as I beat him? Oh because he ignores hate entirely and just kills the master. Seps for BST feet seals? 100+ hp/tick enpoison. The tiger in la theine? Endoom. The eye in khonschtat? 100% physical immunity on the enemy's part. Glavoid/ulhadashi/amphitrite/melo-melo? Because we can't kill them when our attacks heal them. Absolutely anything with paralyze? Oh because this entire strategy requires you to reward every minute, which is always eaten by paralyze.

And yet again, it's in dead content. Content we will have finished soon and moved on to new stuff. Voidwatch hasn't got this problem. Walk of Echoes doesn't. The new burning circle fights don't. SE hasn't nerfed MNK in salvage because it can do naked what everyone else can't do fully geared. Because it was one dead event.

[Gotterdammerung]

Because it's 100% immunity. If it's rarely done, no one ought to care that it's being removed.

Hes talking about full DT gloom ducal. Its rarely done because it sucks. And to answer ur question, if u remove it u ruin the 100% pdt. How you got 12 pages in on this thread and still don't know the parameters of the discussion is beyond me.

[Greatguardian]

Hes talking about full DT gloom ducal. Its rarely done because it sucks. And to answer ur question, if u remove it u ruin the 100% pdt. How you got 12 pages in on this thread and still don't know the parameters of the discussion is beyond me.

So was I. Character limit.

[Louispv]

So was I. Character limit.

Because in the rare instance where it is useable, it's useful. Why take that way other than to make you stop bitching about it?

[Greatguardian]

Because in the rare instance where it is useable, it's useful. Why take that way other than to make you stop bitching about it?

Check the names of the people replying in these threads. I'm not bitching about anything. I'm simply awed by the clamor people are causing over what appears to be an entirely unintentional mechanic.

When was the last time the FFXI Dev Team cowed to the bitching of the masses with regards to potential glitches? They are completely unrelated things. The bitching, and the previous bug report about this feature only gave the Developers a heads up that something might be happening that isn't supposed to be happening. If they had intended for BST pets to be able to hit -100% PDT, they would not adjust it.

Many, many more people bitched about SMN burning for a much longer time. Did the Development team nerf it? No. Why? Because, as far as the mechanics are concerned, everything was working as intended. There was no glitch being exploited. Summoner's Astral Flow does not have a multi target damage reduction. It has always been able to hit as many targets as it wanted at full strength. The only thing that changed was the scale with which players were able to apply it.

Know what else got a lot of bitching? Abyssea being usable at level 30. Multiple 2000+ post threads about it, in fact. Are they nerfing that? Lolno. If you really think this change has anything to do with Ilax's lolthread, other than the fact that it may have let the developers know that such a thing was possible, you're just hopeless.

[Louispv]

Just as soon as you can explain why permanent mighty strikes is okay, but permanent invincible isn't we can have a discussion. Until then there's no logical reason other than "SE wants to appease whiners."

[Arcon]

Just as soon as you can explain why permanent mighty strikes is okay, but permanent invincible isn't we can have a discussion. Until then there's no logical reason other than "SE wants to appease whiners."

1. It isn't ok

To be honest I don't know why SE did that, it seems like a very weird move.

2. It isn't permanent Mighty Strikes

It only affects a few select weapon skills, whereas Mighty Strikes works for all.

3. It is very different from permanent Invincible

The 2hr argument was brought up once, a while ago. And while it makes sense, it isn't all there is to it. That would be arguing about the uses of 2hrs and everyone knows some are more useful to others.

The difference is between Invincible and Mighty Strikes. Mighty Strikes makes you a bit stronger, Invincible makes you invincible. Even if Mighty Strikes made you twice as strong (which isn't true), it would be comparable to 50% Haste (from 0, less the higher you get). Invincible is equivalent to -100% PDT. Despite arguing its uses, Invincible is an objectively stronger 2hr (the rewards are only limited due to its short duration).

So that argument holds no water to begin with. Invincible is a very strong status effect and it simply wasn't what the devs intended to be made permanent. The fact that 90% of user suggestions/complaints get ignored (even good and useful ones) shows that SE doesn't act on the whims of complaining users. They wouldn't be changing it if it wasn't wrong in their eyes.

[Leonlionheart]

Just as soon as you can explain why permanent mighty strikes is okay, but permanent invincible isn't we can have a discussion. Until then there's no logical reason other than "SE wants to appease whiners."

How is invincibility on the level of a PLD's 2hour or a THF's 2hour except without time restrictions even comparable to the level of crit rate given by Razed Ruins?

First off, Razed Ruins only gives about 55% Crit Rate, which is hardly Mighty Strikes. It also doesn't make EVERY WS a CRIT WS like Mighty Strikes does. Go use Fell Cleave with Mighty Strikes with Crit Dmg+ atma on and do more damage than Ukko's Fury does.





But the issue at hand is that there are dozens of people Q.Q'ing about something that is obviously not right.

What other game has invincible pets? Maybe very powerful pets, but certainly not invincible ones.

Then you'll ask what other game has 100% Crit Rate, and I'll start naming off dozens of them. WoW comes to mind, and if there is a MMO business model to copy, it's that one.

[Disifer]

Cap is now same as avatars after doing 15 minutes of testing, usual setup. Looks like it's time to roll out and get a nifty MDB axe for giggles. Thought about dropping anwig but thats DT, can drop shep chain now for ferine necklace.

Cant wait till abyssea is nothing but a place people exp at, give it 6 months, then this will be laughable by then.

[Malamasala]

When was the last time the FFXI Dev Team cowed to the bitching of the masses with regards to potential glitches?

I don't remember last, but it surely felt like RNG nerf happend due to complaints. BST anti-PK patch also happened after complaints. I'm sure some complained about perma-WSing MNKs too, even though that one could have been considered a valid glitch.

[Neisan_Quetz]

The original RNG nerf happened because other DD jobs were being excluded over RNG in events (although it was so harsh people ditched the job in droves).

Bst was just a casualty of the anti-mpk patch.

Perma Weaponskilling could be considered circumventing game mechanics due to how the battle system is setup, although they probably didn't realize it was possible in the first place since, the only 999 delay weapons I am aware of are base relics, and they probably didn't think anyone would actually use them for melee because their dps was so horrible. Although I believe DRG could do it as well.

[Khiinroye]

Drg could, if they had 100% accuracy on penta thrust or got a double attack and missed one hit. It would be for next to no damage because the weapon damage was 1. You can see how much damage that does even now by using pentathrust with the event pitchfork (or you could get a relic lance, level drg, and try it out).

Mnk with relic knuckles was still a 31 damage weapon, so they could still do 600-800 damage with their non-stop asuran fists, and only needed to hit 5/8 hits to keep going. For comparison, destroyers were 48 dmg and spharai was 53 damage.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Well? What happens now with PDT in abyssea?

[Arcon]

Well? What happens now with PDT in abyssea?


Cap is now same as avatars after doing 15 minutes of testing, usual setup.

I wouldn't call that extensive testing, but it does seem to make sense and I think most people expected something like this too.

[Xilk]

I wonder how extensive the change was... I know that mountain clots in mount Zhayolm could also acheive 100% -pdt to blunt damage. Testing these on some trolls w/ a 25%+ pdt gear set will tel if they changed mob mechanics or specifically put a cap on each bst jug. I"m guessing its the bst jugs :P.

IF so... Well an Invincible pet still exists!! lolz

[Atomic_Skull]

Honestly, I'm not sure I can really agree with this. I don't think BST hatred is as far perpetuated through the FFXI community as some people make it out to be, at least not recently. The only reason I know of why people hated BSTs was because they messed with their parties.

People hate BSTs because they don't bathe and they smell like urine and manure.

[Xilk]

People hate BSTs because they don't bathe and they smell like urine and manure.

Wow! there's an olefactory plugin for ffxi!? Where do you get these?

[Volkai]

Wow! there's an olefactory plugin for ffxi!? Where do you get these?
It's not a where but a how, and that how is through the power of your imagination!

See also: where everyone's ideas on the appearance of male mithra (until WotG came out) and female galka came from.

[Ezikiel]

so it caps now at 87.5%