80% haste for melee jobs is plain BS.

[Malamasala]

Just thought I'd spread the whining so people against PDT can see how broken their melee jobs are as well.


That is, with 50% Haste, attacks rounds will occur twice as often. With 66% Haste, attack rounds will occur 3 times as often.

Logically you should not be able to reach even 50%, since you double your TP gain and damage output. Ever see a mage or pet job double their damage? (That is like -30 BP timer... twice todays cap).

For sake of balance, the cap should be 25% haste. That would make you do like 1.5 times the damage, which is still a large increase in damage compared to many other sources of damage than melee.

I don't particularly care if you make it 25% in either magic, gear, JA or make it like roughly 10 cap on each.

Of course this is only for balance. If you want to keep melee the superior DDs, and leave pet jobs and magic users behind, you can always keep the game unbalanced. Though then it would be nice with some other nice bonuses, like 100% PDT for the jobs who can't do enough damage to get party invites due to the haste system.

[Runespider]

Making silly posts like this only serve to put more of a spotlight on the bst problem, good job.

[GlobalVariable]

You know what? It is BS!...For poor cor and rng who get zero benefit from it on their ranged attacks.




Yeah, I went there. Don't take me to seriously if you didn't see the funny here folks. Also nearly anything and everything can be broken thanks to atma.

[RAIST]

Have to realize though, you need more than just haste...80% haste doesn't do you much good if all you're doing is whiffing faster. Then there is the hate control issue...sometimes it's not such a good idea to be swinging that fast on some jobs, other times it may be the best way to keep your hate when the mages are nuking the piss out of something.

Posts like this are getting a little old. So many situational setups that are actually needed now--sometimes they are the one thing that give the edge to certain jobs that actually makes them useful when they would otherwise be shunned. But, a small group will QQ and make a big fuss about it, and here comes the nerf bat...and back to the sidelines those jobs go.

[Arcon]

Making silly posts like this only serve to put more of a spotlight on the bst problem, good job.

.

You don't seem to understand that Haste and PDT have the exact same underlying mechanic. The closer to 100% you get on either, the higher your gain is on an exponential scale.

80% haste (which is very hard to obtain for some jobs) multiplies your damage output by 500%. 80% PDT (which is incredibly easy to get) multiplies your survival time by 500%.

Do you know why 100% haste isn't possible? Because it would make you infinitely strong (offensive). So why should 100% PDT be possible? It also makes you infinitely strong, only defensive.

If PDT cap was reduced to 80%, I would be perfectly happy. You grossly exaggerated what people in the other thread were trying to say.

[GlobalVariable]

If PDT cap was reduced to 80%, I would be perfectly happy. As would I and my lowman group that actually lets me use bst.


You grossly exaggerated what people in the other thread were trying to say.People have been stretching the arguments both ways on the pdt issue in that thread with both pro and anti nerf factions blowing things way out of proportion. I'm sorry but the OPs post would fit right in that mess.

[rog]

Ever see a mage or pet job double their damage?Blm af3+2?

[Leonlionheart]

You don't seem to understand that Haste and PDT have the exact same underlying mechanic. The closer to 100% you get on either, the higher your gain is on an exponential scale.

80% haste (which is very hard to obtain for some jobs) multiplies your damage output by 500%. 80% PDT (which is incredibly easy to get) multiplies your survival time by 500%.

Except when you deal more damage faster, there are less chances that you will die (See: offense is the best defense).

Pretty much any DD job with simply AF3+ CAN cap haste if they are smart enough to use dusk gloves instead of perle/aurore, with the exception of drk drg pup and sam (and sam actually kind of goes over gear cap, because pants give hasso +2.5% haste).

WAR can actually get 31% haste and thf can actually get 34%.

Point is, don't give people an excuse to not cap haste. If a DD isn't capping haste, something is probably wrong.

[wish12oz]

I totally agree with the OP, haste should not be capped at 80%, it should be capped at 95%.

[Alkalinehoe]

I totally agree with the OP, haste should not be capped at 80%, it should be capped at 95%.

It should be capped at 100%. Ya know, to keep in line with BST's 100% PDT.

[JTF]

Just thought I'd spread the whining so people against PDT can see how broken their melee jobs are as well.



Logically you should not be able to reach even 50%, since you double your TP gain and damage output. Ever see a mage or pet job double their damage? (That is like -30 BP timer... twice todays cap).

For sake of balance, the cap should be 25% haste. That would make you do like 1.5 times the damage, which is still a large increase in damage compared to many other sources of damage than melee.

I don't particularly care if you make it 25% in either magic, gear, JA or make it like roughly 10 cap on each.

Of course this is only for balance. If you want to keep melee the superior DDs, and leave pet jobs and magic users behind, you can always keep the game unbalanced. Though then it would be nice with some other nice bonuses, like 100% PDT for the jobs who can't do enough damage to get party invites due to the haste system.

Bleh.

It was more fun years ago when you could get 90%+ haste and DRKs with a Great Axe could do things like this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGfARdrjRnQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaS_nLqVaxU

[Xilk]

Wow, I can't believe you actually say 100% pdt is comparable to 100% haste. that is one of the stupidest things I"ve ever heard. Does this even need a response? I guess so because some people are agreeing w/ it.

If it were 100% ALL Damage reduction and immunity to status ailments I might agree. Although 100% haste woudl literally break the game, that each fight would all last as long as it takes to attack, while complete invincibility would just make the game completely boring in a slower way.

You continue to ignore the facts. Please find out how many NM's this actually affects. Compare to how it makes bst perform against them vs another job or party.

[Leonlionheart]

BST can kill anything.

WHM and MNK can kill anything.

Brew can kill anything.

I don't see why you are all complaining about anything.

[Runespider]

BST can kill anything.

WHM and MNK can kill anything.

Brew can kill anything.

I don't see why you are all complaining about anything.

Only two of these can be done for your entire stay and only one of them kills so slow as to block content from everyone else, if enough people see the BST topic and go level bst to use in this way nobody will be able to do anything.

[Atomic_Skull]

Do you know why 100% haste isn't possible? Because it would make you infinitely strong (offensive). So why should 100% PDT be possible? It also makes you infinitely strong, only defensive.

Before there was an 80% cap 99.9~ haste was theoretically possible.

[Dekoda]

Alright case solved then... let's just make PDT an 80% cap to bring it in line with Haste.

Or do you propose we make it 100%? This line of reasoning can go either way, I'm not sure what you're trying to prove with this thread. Certainly, nerfing Haste isn't the answer to stopping BSTs from slowkilling everything.

[Atomic_Skull]

J

I don't particularly care if you make it 25% in either magic, gear, JA or make it like roughly 10 cap on each.




You realize that many AF3 sets have around 15-20% haste and that capping gear haste at 10% would be stupid in light of that, right?

[Xilk]

Only two of these can be done for your entire stay and only one of them kills so slow as to block content from everyone else, if enough people see the BST topic and go level bst to use in this way nobody will be able to do anything.

bst cannot kill anything. Thats what I've been saying. you don't understand the real impact of this. Good grief I've been actively fighting NM's this way for the last 5 months. Pick an NM.

And as far as a bst blocking out an NM from other players... good grief that happens whenever you have 2 parties wanting the same prize. The argument does not hold water. Pick an NM you think takes forever that a bst is taking an unfair length of time for. It also doesn't consider that you need the weakness triggers to get good loot anyway. The limitations are already in place to make this a non-bst issue. Go find another scapegoat.

[Leonlionheart]

bst cannot kill anything. Thats what I've been saying. you don't understand the real impact of this. Good grief I've been actively fighting NM's this way for the last 5 months. Pick an NM.

And as far as a bst blocking out an NM from other players... good grief that happens whenever you have 2 parties wanting the same prize. The argument does not hold water. Pick an NM you think takes forever that a bst is taking an unfair length of time for. It also doesn't consider that you need the weakness triggers to get good loot anyway. The limitations are already in place to make this a non-bst issue. Go find another scapegoat.

You sound so stupid right now.

BST can kill anything, seriously what part of 100% damage taken reduction don't you understand?

1 WAR 1 NIN 1 WHM is what you need for red in most situations and would take about 10% of the time it takes for a BST to kill anything, while getting red. Seriously WAR and NIN are some of the biggest contenders for DD.

BST can't get red, and would have to do the fight till the KI drops.

How is that not a problem?

[Xilk]

You sound so stupid right now.

BST can kill anything, seriously what part of 100% damage taken reduction don't you understand?

1 WAR 1 NIN 1 WHM is what you need for red in most situations and would take about 10% of the time it takes for a BST to kill anything, while getting red. Seriously WAR and NIN are some of the biggest contenders for DD.

BST can't get red, and would have to do the fight till the KI drops.

How is that not a problem?

LOLZ you don't get it, I"VE BEEN USING THIS FOR 5 MONTHS! I play BST for most everything. I know what it means. I know how effective it is. You don't have a clue and you refuse to educate yourself.

BSt CANNOT kill anything. just because it can't kill your pet doesn't mean you can kill it. And its PHYSICAL DAMAGE it doesn't mean the pet doesn't take damage. Magic does damage, DoTs do damage. Resheph's tarsal slam doesn't care if you have -pdt at all. it drops you down, then next hit kills your pet even at 100% pdt.
instant Death and doom abilities work just fine. I cannot remove status ailments easily from my pet.
Hate resets put NM's on the master all the time.
I guess it sounds stupid trying to explain algebra to a 1st grader who hardly has a grasp of addition and subtraction. Does that make algebra stupid?

Bst can get alot of red triggers by depending on support job. Length of time to kill an NM is a non-bst issue. by capping it at 80% you most likely only limit bst in a few fights and make the rest take longer.

[rog]

Before there was an 80% cap 99.9~ haste was theoretically possible.
No it was not. 25% ja+25% equip+43.75% magic = 93.75% cap.

[Yinnyth]

Just thought I'd spread the whining so people against PDT can see how broken their melee jobs are as well.



Logically you should not be able to reach even 50%, since you double your TP gain and damage output. Ever see a mage or pet job double their damage? (That is like -30 BP timer... twice todays cap).

For sake of balance, the cap should be 25% haste. That would make you do like 1.5 times the damage, which is still a large increase in damage compared to many other sources of damage than melee.

I don't particularly care if you make it 25% in either magic, gear, JA or make it like roughly 10 cap on each.

Of course this is only for balance. If you want to keep melee the superior DDs, and leave pet jobs and magic users behind, you can always keep the game unbalanced. Though then it would be nice with some other nice bonuses, like 100% PDT for the jobs who can't do enough damage to get party invites due to the haste system.
25% haste does not increase your damage by "like 1.5 times". It cuts your delay by 25%, so your delay becomes 3/4 what it once was, so your TP gain becomes the inverse which is 4/3, or 1.33333333333333 times.

Ultimately, that is irrelevant to the point so I shall put the logical fallacies aside. I fear you have outright closed your mind on this topic and no amount of reasoning is possible. However, I shall retain hope.

Damage taken -%, and haste +% are very similar. They both approach infinity at 100%. That is to say that PDT-% is ultimately measured in the attacks you can sustain, while haste+% is ultimately measured in attacks per second. At 100% haste, you would deliver infinite attacks per second. At 100 PDT, you can sustain infinite attacks.

100% is broken on either of those. Yes, even if it's for a neglected and underpowered job. Focus your efforts on the things about your job which actually need to be fixed. Two truths remain and both should have been fixed long ago: 100 PDT is possible on pets, and pet jobs are not nearly as strong as they should be.

[Leonlionheart]

LOLZ you don't get it, I"VE BEEN USING THIS FOR 5 MONTHS! I play BST for most everything. I know what it means. I know how effective it is. You don't have a clue and you refuse to educate yourself.

BSt CANNOT kill anything. just because it can't kill your pet doesn't mean you can kill it. And its PHYSICAL DAMAGE it doesn't mean the pet doesn't take damage. Magic does damage, DoTs do damage. Resheph's tarsal slam doesn't care if you have -pdt at all. it drops you down, then next hit kills your pet even at 100% pdt.
instant Death and doom abilities work just fine. I cannot remove status ailments easily from my pet.
Hate resets put NM's on the master all the time.
I guess it sounds stupid trying to explain algebra to a 1st grader who hardly has a grasp of addition and subtraction. Does that make algebra stupid?

Bst can get alot of red triggers by depending on support job. Length of time to kill an NM is a non-bst issue. by capping it at 80% you most likely only limit bst in a few fights and make the rest take longer.

Hold on, let me pull up a SS of Reward healing 1.9k HP and you can come back to me with the same argument...

Till then see: other thread.

[hiko]

give pets haste and they stop QQ

[RaenRyong]

LOLZ you don't get it, I"VE BEEN USING THIS FOR 5 MONTHS! I play BST for most everything. I know what it means. I know how effective it is. You don't have a clue and you refuse to educate yourself.

"If I can't do something, nobody can?"


BSt CANNOT kill anything. just because it can't kill your pet doesn't mean you can kill it. And its PHYSICAL DAMAGE it doesn't mean the pet doesn't take damage. Magic does damage, DoTs do damage. Resheph's tarsal slam doesn't care if you have -pdt at all. it drops you down, then next hit kills your pet even at 100% pdt.

Because A. so many mobs have a Throat Stab move B. you cannot heal your pet in any way C. you can't summon a new pet!

At risk of looking dumb, does the diremite even have any nonphysical moves? Surely Tarsal would just put you to low hp and then you'd be taking 0 damage from anything anyway...


instant Death and doom abilities work just fine. I cannot remove status ailments easily from my pet.
Hate resets put NM's on the master all the time.

The master makes a lot of hate and can't wear PDT gear?


I guess it sounds stupid trying to explain algebra to a 1st grader who hardly has a grasp of addition and subtraction. Does that make algebra stupid?

No - but apparently if you can't do a bit of math, nobody can.

[Arcon]

At risk of looking dumb, does the diremite even have any nonphysical moves? Surely Tarsal would just put you to low hp and then you'd be taking 0 damage from anything anyway...

Very nice observation, didn't even notice. This holds true for many mobs with such moves as well. Not sure about tonberries, how does Everyone's Grudge/Rancor work on pets? Same damage as on masters? Some of them cast magic though, so guess that's not always a solution. Still a nice catch. And of you have (groundless) low-HP-OCD, there's always Reward.

[Leonlionheart]

Very nice observation, didn't even notice. This holds true for many mobs with such moves as well. Not sure about tonberries, how does Everyone's Grudge/Rancor work on pets? Same damage as on masters? Some of them cast magic though, so guess that's not always a solution. Still a nice catch. And of you have (groundless) low-HP-OCD, there's always Reward.

Considering Everyone's Grudge is a magic BLU spell, I assume it's magic damage.

OFC it can do like 10 damage if you have no/low hate.

[Arcon]

Considering Everyone's Grudge is a magic BLU spell, I assume it's magic damage.

Yeah, I was just wondering if it depends on the master's Tonberry hate, since I doubt a pet has something like that.

[Aaralyn]

Wait, 80% is new cap? Only DD job I have is DNC, and it's not my main. So woosh, either way.

[rog]

Wait, 80% is new cap? Only DD job I have is DNC, and it's not my main. So woosh, either way.
Serious?


80% is a very olde cap. Iirc, was added 2-3 years ago? Or longer?

[Aaralyn]

Serious?


80% is a very olde cap. Iirc, was added 2-3 years ago? Or longer?

Yup, woosh. I thought 25% in gear and spell haste OR marches capped haste. Well, then. I'll retreat back to under my rock.

[Greatguardian]

Yup, woosh. I thought 25% in gear and spell haste OR marches capped haste. Well, then. I'll retreat back to under my rock.

That's probably because you're a Dancer and are working with high levels of dual wield and Haste Samba.

Haste doesn't cap at 80% persay, Delay Reduction caps at 80% and Haste is a part of that. So is Dual Wield.

Assuming Dnc is using Suppa and AF3+2 body for 45% base Dual Wield,

0.2 = (1 - 0.45) * (1 - X) where X = Haste required to cap,

0.2 = 0.55 * (1 - X)

0.363 = (1-X)

X = 63.7%, with 25% in gear and 10% from Samba.

35% + 23% (marches only) = 58%, so you're close but still 5.7% Haste from cap.

35% + 15% (haste spell only) = 50% so you're still 13.7% Haste from cap.

35% + 38% (March+Haste) = 73% and puts you handily over cap, to the point where a lot of your Dual Wield is actually hurting more than helping.

Of course, if you're using more Dual Wield than just AF3+2 body and Suppa then it's possible that you'd cap Delay Reduction with just Marches. You can use the formula to check different levels of DW/Haste for yourself if you wanted.

0.2 = (1 - DW) * (1 - Haste)

[Khiinroye]

If you put a war with 100% haste (restrict weapon to Ukonvasara) vs a bst pet with -100% pdt pre-activated, the pet will win every time. Just saying.

80% haste (delay reduction) requires at least two others to assist you, unless you're doing something like dnc/whm, which is doing it wrong.
-100% can be done solo.

Maximum haste has already been nerfed, and next week's miniupdate is nerfing pet pdt in abyssea (the only place where -100% pdt is possible), so let these threads die already.

[rog]

If you put a war with 100% haste (restrict weapon to Ukonvasara) vs a bst pet with -100% pdt pre-activated, the pet will win every time. Just saying.
No, because war can sub rdm and get enspells, which would instant kill the bst pet even with 0 enhancing skill.

Of course without enspells, you are still wrong, because no one would win. When the servers crash, it would be a tie.

[Glamdring]

read the haste guides for the misinformed and all the posts stating that the foundation of everything is haste, all you need is haste, work on nothing but haste.

You don't need to hit the mob, you need to swing faster. You don't need to evade the mob's swings at you, you only need to swing back faster. Your swings don't need to do any appreciable damage, you just need alot of them. You don't need to avoid being one shot, you simply need to RR faster so you can get haste back on you. It's all about haste!

[Malamasala]

You realize that many AF3 sets have around 15-20% haste and that capping gear haste at 10% would be stupid in light of that, right?

About as stupid as capping BP timer reduction at 15 when you can get about 20-25 reduction.

[Glamdring]

read the haste guides for the misinformed and all the posts stating that the foundation of everything is haste, all you need is haste, work on nothing but haste.

You don't need to hit the mob, you need to swing faster. You don't need to evade the mob's swings at you, you only need to swing back faster. Your swings don't need to do any appreciable damage, you just need alot of them. You don't need to avoid being one shot, you simply need to RR faster so you can get haste back on you. It's all about haste!

And yes, that was sarcasm. I have I think 6% haste in my gear for my highest hasted job. I still pull hate off almost anybody because I connect more often for higher damage. My bard-on the few occasions I bring it (generally just to recap my XP after a bad dynamis run [i.e. my bard has to start pulling]) actually usually ends up scherzo|mambo or madrigal|march to help survival or skill-up, as well as Ballad x2 for mages that are deficient in refresh atma. I don't use haste Atmas either, usually a regen, eva and either an attack or refresh atma based on whether I'm bringing my mage pup or some other job. I do change that up if I know what I'm fighting and something else might work better situationally.

Haste is nice... so is almost everything else. Try a little balance sometime, you may live longer.

[Greatguardian]

Two hits for 30 damage do more damage than one hit for 50 damage, and nets you twice as much TP which doubles your WS damage (and you don't even WS in Haste, so you aren't losing damage per WS), and that's being super incredibly lenient towards the amount of damage/hit other stats would give you. It's not like players are abso-super-lutely gimp to the point where they're barely doing any damage without stacking attack/acc in slots where you can use Haste, or that Haste pieces don't have any other relevant stats on them (See: MNK AF3+2).

Edit: And using "Pulling hate" as a reference for how much damage you're dealing is so 2004 and completely wrong in every way imaginable, sorry.

[Sayelle]

And yes, that was sarcasm. I have I think 6% haste in my gear for my highest hasted job. I still pull hate off almost anybody because I connect more often for higher damage. My bard-on the few occasions I bring it (generally just to recap my XP after a bad dynamis run [i.e. my bard has to start pulling]) actually usually ends up scherzo|mambo or madrigal|march to help survival or skill-up, as well as Ballad x2 for mages that are deficient in refresh atma. I don't use haste Atmas either, usually a regen, eva and either an attack or refresh atma based on whether I'm bringing my mage pup or some other job. I do change that up if I know what I'm fighting and something else might work better situationally.

Haste is nice... so is almost everything else. Try a little balance sometime, you may live longer.

Ugh, so much dumb in one post I can't believe it...

You do realize that it's possible to cap or near cap both gear Haste and Accuracy at the same time, then you fill in the remaining spots with attack and other stats and eating attack food. You claim that you are always the one getting hate, well I hate to break it to you, but the way that hate works in this game even some one who makes horrible gear decisions can end up hitting hate cap and getting the mobs attention. A person who actually knows what the fuck and gears in haste/acc will have the mobs attention far more often than you since once hate is capped the mob will attack whoever took the last action on it, and guess what, that will be the person who is hitting faster.

Please do these boards and the rest of us a favor and stop posting until you have a basic understanding of the game mechanics.

[rog]

Two hits for 30 damage do more damage than one hit for 50 damage, and nets you twice as much TP which doubles your WS damage (and you don't even WS in Haste, so you aren't losing damage per WS), and that's being super incredibly lenient towards the amount of damage/hit other stats would give you. It's not like players are abso-super-lutely gimp to the point where they're barely doing any damage without stacking attack/acc in slots where you can use Haste, or that Haste pieces don't have any other relevant stats on them (See: MNK AF3+2).

Edit: And using "Pulling hate" as a reference for how much damage you're dealing is so 2004 and completely wrong in every way imaginable, sorry.I pull hate with 2 nukes on blm, that means blm is an amazing dd, amirite?

[Greatguardian]

I pull hate with 2 nukes on blm, that means blm is an amazing dd, amirite?

Best in the game, brah

[Glamdring]

Two hits for 30 damage do more damage than one hit for 50 damage, and nets you twice as much TP which doubles your WS damage (and you don't even WS in Haste, so you aren't losing damage per WS), and that's being super incredibly lenient towards the amount of damage/hit other stats would give you. It's not like players are abso-super-lutely gimp to the point where they're barely doing any damage without stacking attack/acc in slots where you can use Haste, or that Haste pieces don't have any other relevant stats on them (See: MNK AF3+2).

Edit: And using "Pulling hate" as a reference for how much damage you're dealing is so 2004 and completely wrong in every way imaginable, sorry.

Actually, considerring the number of players with just STUPID skill gaps that is exactly what I see happening.

Next, using the taking of hate as a measure of how my damage stands... isn't that PRECISELY why they say paladin is dead as a tank, they can't do damage so the jobs doing damage are taking the hate? Whiffing twice as fast is just as effective as single whiffing... i.e. not at all. When you only hit for 1-20 per hit you get to eat it's TP moves in greater numbers, enjoy yourself. The extra attack round given by the haste boost (hard to estimate how often it occurs because of differing weapon delays) may amount to nothing. In factm the only thing I see as always benefiting from haste is the Utsu recast timer. Other boosts may be much more effective, and your choices should reflect that in your character build of gear, atma, food and the like.

[rog]

Best in the game, brah
I think so. You silly melee dds cannot pull hate with only two of your normal attacks. Damn gimps.

[Greatguardian]

Actually, considerring the number of players with just STUPID skill gaps that is exactly what I see happening.

Next, using the taking of hate as a measure of how my damage stands... isn't that PRECISELY why they say paladin is dead as a tank, they can't do damage so the jobs doing damage are taking the hate? Whiffing twice as fast is just as effective as single whiffing... i.e. not at all. When you only hit for 1-20 per hit you get to eat it's TP moves in greater numbers, enjoy yourself. The extra attack round given by the haste boost (hard to estimate how often it occurs because of differing weapon delays) may amount to nothing. In factm the only thing I see as always benefiting from haste is the Utsu recast timer. Other boosts may be much more effective, and your choices should reflect that in your character build of gear, atma, food and the like.

You're so misinformed I really just don't know where to start. Let's divide things up point by point.

1) No, additional attack rounds have nothing to do with the delay of the weapon. All weapons attack twice as often at 50% Haste no matter what the delay is. All weapons attack three times as often at 66% Haste. All weapons attack four times as often at 75% Haste. All weapons attack five times as often at 80% Haste.

2) Who the hell cares about retards who don't have capped skill? Are you one of them? No? Then this argument obviously does not apply to you and your gear, so you should be using Haste.

3) Paladin does not deal as much damage as a normal DD. This is true, and a good portion of why it sucks.

3b) Unfortunately, that has nothing to do with Enmity. Paladin can cap hate just as easily as anyone else. The problem with Paladin is not, and has never been, about Enmity.

4) Who the hell whiffs on anything aside from Neo-Xarcabard content these days? Combat skills, Level Correction, and Atmas where Level Correction isn't giving you a huge boost pretty much auto-cap accuracy.

You'd have a point in theory if players were hitting ridiculously low Accuracy numbers (like sub-60%) and had absolutely no outside Haste. The former is most definitely not the case unless someone just seriously sucks hardcore, like trying very hard to suck as much as possible, so your argument is invalid.

[Mirage]

Just stopping by to say GG is totally right.

More on topic, 80% haste on melees isn't unfair to bst, simply because bst can actually you know, melee too. Sure, you won't be hitting as hard as a war or a nin or a thf, but the damage you're outputting is being supplemented by the damage your pet does. The very same pet you can give fulltime Invincible. Why not give them fulltime mighty strikes as well? Surely, that can't be any more BS than fulltime Invincible.

[rog]

When you only hit for 1-20 per hit you get to eat it's TP moves in greater numbers, enjoy yourself.If you care that much about feeding tp, you do not use any melees, and instead stick with blms that can do 3-5k+ damage for 10 tp.

Oh, you say that is too slow?

[Mirage]

Also, hitting for 1-20 damage. Why are you meleeing on blm?

[rog]

Also, hitting for 1-20 damage. Why are you meleeing on blm?
uh...what?

[Glamdring]

Ugh, so much dumb in one post I can't believe it...

You do realize that it's possible to cap or near cap both gear Haste and Accuracy at the same time, then you fill in the remaining spots with attack and other stats and eating attack food. You claim that you are always the one getting hate, well I hate to break it to you, but the way that hate works in this game even some one who makes horrible gear decisions can end up hitting hate cap and getting the mobs attention. A person who actually knows what the fuck and gears in haste/acc will have the mobs attention far more often than you since once hate is capped the mob will attack whoever took the last action on it, and guess what, that will be the person who is hitting faster.

Please do these boards and the rest of us a favor and stop posting until you have a basic understanding of the game mechanics.

there are other stats in the game that are as relevant as attack speed, power, acc and the like, defensive skills and such. Often defense is as or more important than haste. Query: how much damage are you doing dead? How does haste prevent death? Only way I know of is Utsu, but /nin isn't the only character build used in game.

There are also many mobs with extremely heavy defense, Attack power is going to be more of a friend there, because the high def yields more 0 damage hits. Then there are mobs that evade like nobody's business (giant birds as an example), acc is your friend there. There are even mobs you only want to take with ranged weapons due to auras and the like, haste doesn't even work on ranged attack. For whatever reason, bard haste seems to only affect ninjitsu casting (not exactly fair to other casters but that's the way it is), so it's not really useful on mages unless they plan to melee as well.

Haste may be a decent default to build for, depending on your job, but you may get more milage out of other things. Galka pld may want MP, Taru may need HP or eva for survival, Mithra may need strength, pseudo casters may benefit more from magic acc/mab, bard want anything to speed casting but that's not haste-it's more a variant of fast cast, etc.

I've built my dnc to work on eva, not haste as an example. The Eva allows me to tank for 1. Hitting so I gain TP is more important than swinging often so I prefer acc to haste. I use a truckload of +store TP since TP fuels my abilities. And last but not least, haste LOWERS my samba effectiveness, meaning I drain for less. I haste samba situationally, when the mob is easy to hit and not doing much damage to my group, but if it's able to put out alot of damage I'll switch to drain (unless it's undead), if I'm working with alot of MP using DD (blue, dark, etc) I may use aspir samba, and if solo I'll use drain almost exclusively since it cuts the # of waltzes I need in half, letting me WS more often. That's just 1 job...

[Glamdring]

If you care that much about feeding tp, you do not use any melees, and instead stick with blms that can do 3-5k+ damage for 10 tp.

Oh, you say that is too slow?

I certainly don't say that, but the haste meisters do...

[Arcon]

there are other stats in the game that are as relevant as attack speed, power, acc and the like, defensive skills and such. Often defense is as or more important than haste. Query: how much damage are you doing dead? How does haste prevent death? Only way I know of is Utsu, but /nin isn't the only character build used in game.

There are also many mobs with extremely heavy defense, Attack power is going to be more of a friend there, because the high def yields more 0 damage hits. Then there are mobs that evade like nobody's business (giant birds as an example), acc is your friend there. There are even mobs you only want to take with ranged weapons due to auras and the like, haste doesn't even work on ranged attack. For whatever reason, bard haste seems to only affect ninjitsu casting (not exactly fair to other casters but that's the way it is), so it's not really useful on mages unless they plan to melee as well.

Haste may be a decent default to build for, depending on your job, but you may get more milage out of other things. Galka pld may want MP, Taru may need HP or eva for survival, Mithra may need strength, pseudo casters may benefit more from magic acc/mab, bard want anything to speed casting but that's not haste-it's more a variant of fast cast, etc.

I've built my dnc to work on eva, not haste as an example. The Eva allows me to tank for 1. Hitting so I gain TP is more important than swinging often so I prefer acc to haste. I use a truckload of +store TP since TP fuels my abilities. And last but not least, haste LOWERS my samba effectiveness, meaning I drain for less. I haste samba situationally, when the mob is easy to hit and not doing much damage to my group, but if it's able to put out alot of damage I'll switch to drain (unless it's undead), if I'm working with alot of MP using DD (blue, dark, etc) I may use aspir samba, and if solo I'll use drain almost exclusively since it cuts the # of waltzes I need in half, letting me WS more often. That's just 1 job...

A few misconceptions:
- Marches do reduce other caster's recast times as well
- Haste doesn't lower delay (that would be dual wield), and as such doesn't gimp your sambas
- Capped haste with absolute zero accuracy lands more hits than capped accuracy, even with 5% Haste
- If a mob takes 0 damage, it's very likely that some Attack won't make a difference at all
- Gear can be situational, you don't have to fulltime one set for every situation
- More often than not Haste doesn't sacrifice other stats at all

[Greatguardian]

I certainly don't say that, but the haste meisters do...

Before this goes any further, I'm just going to assume you don't switch gear at all. That would explain a lot, really.

If so, carry on. You're a lost cause and there's no point arguing with you.

[Glamdring]

You're so misinformed I really just don't know where to start. Let's divide things up point by point.

1) No, additional attack rounds have nothing to do with the delay of the weapon. All weapons attack twice as often at 50% Haste no matter what the delay is. All weapons attack three times as often at 66% Haste. All weapons attack four times as often at 75% Haste. All weapons attack five times as often at 80% Haste.

2) Who the hell cares about retards who don't have capped skill? Are you one of them? No? Then this argument obviously does not apply to you and your gear, so you should be using Haste.

3) Paladin does not deal as much damage as a normal DD. This is true, and a good portion of why it sucks.

3b) Unfortunately, that has nothing to do with Enmity. Paladin can cap hate just as easily as anyone else. The problem with Paladin is not, and has never been, about Enmity.

4) Who the hell whiffs on anything aside from Neo-Xarcabard content these days? Combat skills, Level Correction, and Atmas where Level Correction isn't giving you a huge boost pretty much auto-cap accuracy.

You'd have a point in theory if players were hitting ridiculously low Accuracy numbers (like sub-60%) and had absolutely no outside Haste. The former is most definitely not the case unless someone just seriously sucks hardcore, like trying very hard to suck as much as possible, so your argument is invalid.

you apparently didn't understand what I meant by attack round, i.e. how often you swing. Unfortunately, if there is an accepted term for this I'm not aware of it. When I said I can't estimate it, that's because the guy using HTH might swing twice every 5 seconds with 0 haste, but the guy with a scythe is swinging once every 12 seconds with 0. If hasted to the point of swinging twice as fast our HTH guy is swinging every 2.5 sends, but our scythe guy is every 6. I know those aren't the actual game numbers for these attack types, just numbers to fill in x in the haste cap equation. So the extra attack round I refer to is the point at which-in the same 30 seconds-the haste value would grant you the extra swing. Sorry, terminology limitation there.

2. I chose not to use haste because I live longer and get more done generally with other boosts, eva and the like. If I don't need the eva, or def, or whatever more than haste, then yes, I'll usually use haste (depends on what gear I have).

3. I agree pld isn't about enmity, it's about enmity control. However, last guy to attck you is not the only factor controlling this. If haste is coming from uniform sources, and so is damage (i.e. a pld and war both swinging at mob with similar weap speed, acc and dmg) and so both have 60% haste the war will get the hate because they hit harder (and they prolly have an acc advantage, too), tie goes to the guy what hits harder.

4. in the face of all the jobs leeched to the moon without the skill to back it up, whiffing/doing no damage is exactly what I see alot of. It's also why most skill-up parties Ive been in with my bard I'm asked to madrigal, because it's more effective to that purpose than march.

[Francisco]

For those who don't know - 100% Haste would basically be 0 delay - meaning anything you engage would die instantly (if it didn't actually crash the game due to some logic fail).

You could engage Absolute Virtue with a DMG: 1 Delay: 999 weapon with 0 skill that hits for zero on every swing, but has a 0.0000000000001% chance to crit hit for 1 damage... with 0 skill, while slow, blinded, paralyzed and being Rambus and it would still instantly die and your skill for that weapon would cap itself (likely considering it'd take hundreds of thousands - maybe millions) of swings (all firing off instantaneously) to kill it... Either way, it'd break something... even if the software was programmed to understand what's going on, the amount of data being forced at once would probably overwhelm your computer's memory or knock the FFXI server offline. If you're on PS2, it'd probably just catch on fire... or evolve ... ending the era of PS2 Limitations.

[Mirage]

uh...what?

I just can't think of many other jobs that would hit for that little damage at level 90. Except for on a few NMs.

[Arcon]

[..] If you're on PS2, it'd probably just catch on fire... or evolve ... ending the era of PS2 Limitations.

I vote 100% Haste cap.

[Arcon]

I just can't think of many other jobs that would hit for that little damage at level 90. Except for on a few NMs.

Try any job (even heavy melee) that actually has no native skill in a weapon. WAR with a Katana for example.

Edit:
Bollocks. My first double-post.

[RaenRyong]

you apparently didn't understand what I meant by attack round, i.e. how often you swing. Unfortunately, if there is an accepted term for this I'm not aware of it. When I said I can't estimate it, that's because the guy using HTH might swing twice every 5 seconds with 0 haste, but the guy with a scythe is swinging once every 12 seconds with 0. If hasted to the point of swinging twice as fast our HTH guy is swinging every 2.5 sends, but our scythe guy is every 6. I know those aren't the actual game numbers for these attack types, just numbers to fill in x in the haste cap equation. So the extra attack round I refer to is the point at which-in the same 30 seconds-the haste value would grant you the extra swing. Sorry, terminology limitation there.

This is a common fallacy and only works in a vacuum. There are so many factors involved such as variable time length, more DDs... etc.

To put in on a parallel: accuracy? If you add 1% to 90%, how many attack rounds must you go through to see this on average? I guess accuracy sucks too.

STR? How much do you need until you "save a hit"? I guess STR sucks too. Etc...


2. I chose not to use haste because I live longer and get more done generally with other boosts, eva and the like. If I don't need the eva, or def, or whatever more than haste, then yes, I'll usually use haste (depends on what gear I have).

Gimping yourself to live longer is dumb (exception: full PDT to MACRO IN in a desperate situation), especially with the healing power we have nowadays.

[Sayelle]

you apparently didn't understand what I meant by attack round, i.e. how often you swing. Unfortunately, if there is an accepted term for this I'm not aware of it. When I said I can't estimate it, that's because the guy using HTH might swing twice every 5 seconds with 0 haste, but the guy with a scythe is swinging once every 12 seconds with 0. If hasted to the point of swinging twice as fast our HTH guy is swinging every 2.5 sends, but our scythe guy is every 6. I know those aren't the actual game numbers for these attack types, just numbers to fill in x in the haste cap equation. So the extra attack round I refer to is the point at which-in the same 30 seconds-the haste value would grant you the extra swing. Sorry, terminology limitation there.

2. I chose not to use haste because I live longer and get more done generally with other boosts, eva and the like. If I don't need the eva, or def, or whatever more than haste, then yes, I'll usually use haste (depends on what gear I have).

3. I agree pld isn't about enmity, it's about enmity control. However, last guy to attck you is not the only factor controlling this. If haste is coming from uniform sources, and so is damage (i.e. a pld and war both swinging at mob with similar weap speed, acc and dmg) and so both have 60% haste the war will get the hate because they hit harder (and they prolly have an acc advantage, too), tie goes to the guy what hits harder.

4. in the face of all the jobs leeched to the moon without the skill to back it up, whiffing/doing no damage is exactly what I see alot of. It's also why most skill-up parties Ive been in with my bard I'm asked to madrigal, because it's more effective to that purpose than march.

The fact that you are a solo Dancer explains sooooooooooooooooooo much.

[Korpg]

Just thought I'd spread the whining so people against PDT can see how broken their melee jobs are as well.



Logically you should not be able to reach even 50%, since you double your TP gain and damage output. Ever see a mage or pet job double their damage? (That is like -30 BP timer... twice todays cap).

For sake of balance, the cap should be 25% haste. That would make you do like 1.5 times the damage, which is still a large increase in damage compared to many other sources of damage than melee.

I don't particularly care if you make it 25% in either magic, gear, JA or make it like roughly 10 cap on each.

Of course this is only for balance. If you want to keep melee the superior DDs, and leave pet jobs and magic users behind, you can always keep the game unbalanced. Though then it would be nice with some other nice bonuses, like 100% PDT for the jobs who can't do enough damage to get party invites due to the haste system.

/slow clap

Good job!

[Mirage]

Try any job (even heavy melee) that actually has no native skill in a weapon. WAR with a Katana for example.

Edit:
Bollocks. My first double-post.

Well, sure. I was just of the impression that we were talking about situations where you're seriously trying to deal as much damage as you can. I wouldn't melee with a 0-skill staff when up against a monster whose TP moves I'm afraid of.

-edit-
Oh yeah, just felt a sudden urge to comment on this


Logically you should not be able to reach even 50%, since you double your TP gain and damage output. Ever see a mage or pet job double their damage? (That is like -30 BP timer... twice todays cap).
Actually, I have seen a pet job triple their damage. He wore 25% haste in gear, Haste spell, and a couple of those marches you might know of.

[Khajit]

Haste needs to become uncapped again. Not only is it annoying that i cant have hasso, last resort, or haste samba up at the same time but all of the haste atma SE gives are worthless because of that. Why don't you want your own atma to be useful SE?

[GlobalVariable]

This thread exists as an extension of the other one, why not lock it to?



Oh I have another request for my nerf list. Can we ban players who dualbox, they're up in my business all the time, fighting MY mobs.
Where is my Apoc autoreraise nerf?Where is my ridiculously long kite solo nerf its not fair I have to wait for people! Where is my refresh atma nerf, its obviously an exploit having higher than normally attainable refresh!
Haste is broken to!

[Leonlionheart]

If they capped haste at anything other than 80, there would be a global emotional breakdown of all DDs.

As if there wasn't enough QQ when they capped it at 80%.

Allow pets to get haste spell and marches, and this thread would never have been created.

[Tannlore]

If they capped haste at anything other than 80, there would be a global emotional breakdown of all DDs.

As if there wasn't enough QQ when they capped it at 80%.

Allow pets to get haste spell and marches, and this thread would never have been created.

There is a pet that gets a haste spell, AoE even.... just saying you know :)

[Darka]

ITT: Haste doesn't affect BSTs too.

80% isn't even attainable solo for most, how this is =/= to 100% PDT is just a mind***.

[GlobalVariable]

how this is =/= to 100% PDT is justI think it was intentionally crazy like that.

[Leonlionheart]

There is a pet that gets a haste spell, AoE even.... just saying you know :)

Kinda irrelevant when Garuda doesn't need TP to do it's biggest damage ability.

Now if Shiva could get that haste, or there were separate Blood Pacts for physical/magical abilities...

[Tsukino_Kaji]

80% haste for melee jobs is plain BS.
Just thought I'd spread the whining so people against PDT can see how broken their melee jobs are as well.Dont' forget the BS of the 80 some-odd % crit rates, or that something like 75% counter rate. God forbid any of us get to use the atma as intended. lol

[blowfin]

Dont' forget the BS of the 80 some-odd % crit rates, or that something like 75% counter rate. God forbid any of us get to use the atma as intended. lol

Yep, hit the nail on the head, the most broken thing in Abyss right at the moment is crit. damage. I'm still utterly astounded that they raised the cap so far to be honest.

[Tannlore]

Kinda irrelevant when Garuda doesn't need TP to do it's biggest damage ability.

Now if Shiva could get that haste, or there were separate Blood Pacts for physical/magical abilities...

Sarcasm... lost on the interwebz.... le sigh

[Arcon]

Haste needs to become uncapped again. Not only is it annoying that i cant have hasso, last resort, or haste samba up at the same time but all of the haste atma SE gives are worthless because of that. Why don't you want your own atma to be useful SE?

Haste was still capped in the respective categories, so the total cap was still 93.75%, and Atma (since they count as equipment haste) would still be useless.

[Tannlore]

Pet giving haste to players != player giving haste to pet. Just saying.


Ah but here she gives ti herself AND the players! ZOMG! Call the haste po-po! We has haste violation! pet haste and player haste all in one! It is riotz! It is mass genocidez! It is... who cares? seriously?

[GlobalVariable]

Ah but here she gives ti herself AND the players! ZOMG! Call the haste po-po! We has haste violation! pet haste and player haste all in one! It is riotz! It is mass genocidez! It is... who cares? seriously?

Dangit, I edited that out because I didn't wanna deal with the stupidity and you still quoted in it that 15 seconds. And didn't even comprehend what you were reading. Wow. Nobody gives a crap that one pet can self haste. The only reason a smn pulls out hastega is to haste melee dd PLAYERS. Also you don't sound sarcastic, just absurd.

[Khajit]

Haste was still capped in the respective categories, so the total cap was still 93.75%, and Atma (since they count as equipment haste) would still be useless.

You seem to forget how gimp a large portion of the player base is.

[Mirage]

You could still put on the haste atma and replace 10% haste gear with like idk, attack and DA gear?

But I doubt that would outweigh the extra damage output you could get from a different third atma

[Greatguardian]

You could still put on the haste atma and replace 10% haste gear with like idk, attack and DA gear?

But I doubt that would outweigh the extra damage output you could get from a different third atma

Pretty much not in a million years.

[Topdogg]

Who says haste cap is going over 25%?

[Ravenmore]

Topdgg are you talking bout the total haste cap of just gear haste.

[Jar]

bst can cap haste... well can get 72~%