Sentinel VS Last Resort

[Himrik]

Hello,

Looking at the last update, i thought of a way to really increase PLD's effectiveness at tanking without changing his role.
Since Last Resort got an increased duration, why couldn't Sentinel be given the same upgrade ?
Think about it: Enmity+100, PDT-90% decaying over time, and Guardian, for a full 3-minutes time.

PLD's role has always been to tank with it's JA, and this will follow the same path. No uber-DD capabilities needed, or new effects that we'll never see anywhere in the game, only increasing an existing ability.

The question is "Will it be usefull in Abbysea, where any DD can tank ?"
Any DD can tank, providing there's a full time healer covering their back. But what if PLD can survive long fights without the help of a WHM ?

There would be parties revolving around a DD+WHM combo, and parties revolving around a PLD.

This way, no job is necessary, but all are usefull.

Please SE, hear my pledge :)

[Zagen]

Sounds potentially broken but if the decay is fairly quick still I think it would be ok.



The question is "Will it be usefull in Abbysea, where any DD can tank ?"
Any DD can tank, providing there's a full time healer covering their back. But what if PLD can survive long fights without the help of a WHM ?

The problem isn't the damage taken it is the damage dealt. A DD tank will kill a NM faster than a PLD. The DD can hold back when needed to make a monster live longer. A PLD can't do that because they don't deal damage in the same range as the DD.

For example currently the "best" job at not taking damage in the game is a BST, well the BST's pet since it can currently achieve -100%PDT. How often has a BST pet tanked mobs for your group?

[Himrik]

Indeed a DD will kill faster than a PLD, but 5 DD and 1 WHM won't kill faster than 5 DD and 1 PLD.
It takes a DD and a healer to hold hate and survive. If a PLD can do this by himself, it will be very efficient for low-man groups or against NM without many AoE moves.

[Greatguardian]

5 DD and a WHM will kill faster than 5 DD and a PLD.

Paladin can't cast Haste.

Zing.

[Zagen]

5 DD and a WHM will kill faster than 5 DD and a PLD.

Paladin can't cast Haste.

Zing.

PLD/WHM can! the new butter sheep! >.>

[Laciante]

lol, but then it won't have Provoke

[Judge]

pld doesnt need voke to tank lol

regarding OP.. i agree it would be helpful for soloing and withstanding bigger NM's. but ppl wont like to use pld still for the simple mindedness that bigger dmg is better tanking.
pumping up sentinel however would mean that pld could use more DD oriented accessories and join the DD's more often with the bloodlust and WS spam

[Zagen]

When PLD was used for tanking it didn't need Provoke to keep hate, PLD/NIN says hi.


pumping up sentinel however would mean that pld could use more DD oriented accessories and join the DD's more often with the bloodlust and WS spam
What DD oriented accessories wouldn't you use on PLD?
I ask because the only way my PLD has performed in any respectable manner has been to gear with DD items not "turtle" items. Not counting macro swaps for PDT/MDT/MDB obviously.

[Defiledsickness]

Pld can hold hate with RR and enough defensive gear to not take dmg. /nin and wearing gear that reduces hate lost with dmg you can tank decently. add an almace and ur good ^^

however it requires work from the pld and the DD to make sure you keep hate. but xp parties required Drk/Sam/Blu to be careful before abyssea so they didnt steal the hate. i never see Thf's SATA plds in abyssea either...

to the OP sentinel definitely needs this boost. Fan Dance pretty much mops sentinel up only sentinel increases enmity.

[Zagen]

however it requires work from the pld and the DD to make sure you keep hate. but xp parties required Drk/Sam/Blu to be careful before abyssea so they didnt steal the hate. i never see Thf's SATA plds in abyssea either...
Probably because even after TAing a 3k WS the THF will be tanking in the next 5-10 seconds assuming they're both capped on hate, so it still keeps the THF tanking or any DD recapping hate faster than a PLD can.

My NIN can do almost as much damage as my friend's THF when we kill Briareus but most of the time it locks on him longer than me, Triple Attack Merits + Atmas + Haste + Haste Sambas are hard to compete with but then again I wouldn't have it any other way, I'm only NIN/DNC to keep the TP gain manageable and to stun all TP moves.

DDs don't need to hold back anymore because there is no need, aside from Ochain PLD they take just about the same amount of damage as a PLD, even a turtle PLD.

[Naix]

Pld can hold hate with RR and enough defensive gear to not take dmg. /nin and wearing gear that reduces hate lost with dmg you can tank decently. add an almace and ur good ^^

however it requires work from the pld and the DD to make sure you keep hate. but xp parties required Drk/Sam/Blu to be careful before abyssea so they didnt steal the hate. i never see Thf's SATA plds in abyssea either...

to the OP sentinel definitely needs this boost. Fan Dance pretty much mops sentinel up only sentinel increases enmity.

I think your over-rating how good Almace is. Almace allows PLD to be acceptable with the rest of non-empryean DD's. When you compare apples to apples though, it goes through the same issue. PLD will hold as much hate as anyone else once it's capped in 1min or what have you.

PLD is broken in so many different ways I don't even know where you begin to fix it, unfortunately. PLDs (tanks) used to exist/be necessary because NMs wouldn't take enough dmg from DDing that they could hold hate through the cures they needed to be alive. PLD, RDM/NIN, NIN/DRK etc could hold hate without dealing damage and thus the tanking aspect was there. However, before Abyssea was out, gear that DDs could equip would keep increasing, to the point where they could hold hate through cures. Further to that, mages also got better gear/sj (/sch was huge) that would help them being filled with mp/more efficient with mp.

I would like to point out that a properly geared PLD will take less dmg then most jobs, or at worst, manageable damage in smaller chunks (as opposed to spike damage that you have to react to quickly.)

[Zagen]

I would like to point out that a properly geared PLD will take less dmg then most jobs, or at worst, manageable damage in smaller chunks (as opposed to spike damage that you have to react to quickly.)
Which jobs would that be? Because I can't think of a single DD job that can't gear the same amount of Damage Reduction and/or have something that currently out weighs the benefits of shield blocks (not counting Ochain or course). I just don't see it unless you're talking about Relic/Emp holder PLDs.

[Aeonk]

Which jobs would that be? Because I can't think of a single DD job that can't gear the same amount of Damage Reduction and/or have something that currently out weighs the benefits of shield blocks (not counting Ochain or course). I just don't see it unless you're talking about Relic/Emp holder PLDs.
I can think of a few jobs.

WAR for one. Even though they share the majority of PLD's PDT/MDT selection of armors (like Valhalla, Metallon Mantle, Nierenschutz, etc.) there is one piece they can't wear: Creed Cuirass +2. At high enmity that body piece mitigates 10ish% dmg taken. No body piece WAR has access to can top that.

JA wise, the only defensive skill WAR has access to is Defender. Which does nothing for them in the face of an HNM. Anything else comes from a sub job, meaning PLD has access to whatever that may be as well (making it a moot point.)
Shield blocking, Phalanx, Reprisal, Sentinel, and Rampart vs Defender... WAR has nothing on PLD.

Next up is DRG. Gear wise, they share most of the PDT/MDT gear too (minus valhalla). But Creed Cuirass +2 (and Valhalla) still puts PLD ahead.

Defensive JA's and such... nothing but a hate wipe on a 3 minute timer and their pet wyvern. If they're dealing the type of dmg they're supposed to be dealing, that Super Jump won't be doing them many favors. After that it's up to the wyvern. And although great for healing the dmg dealt in small doses, any HNM scale mobs will be hitting too hard for him to keep up.


I could probably think of some other examples, but it's time for my particular post to have a reality check. Although PLD may be relatively better than some of the jobs at raw dmg mitigation (or in the case of Ochain/Aegis, far outclass them) on paper, the other jobs can get enough dmg mitigation through all those ignored pieces I mentioned earlier, to bring their dmg taken down to levels that the healer can manage.
It's not so much that they do it better than PLD, just that they do it well enough on their own. Especially in abyssea, where very few mobs require "PLD levels" of dmg reduction to win (if any at all.)

[Greatguardian]

PDT and MDT also cap. Every job is able to hit capped MDT with relative ease. Some jobs have an easier time capping PDT than others (MNK/SAM/NIN have a massive advantage here, even over PLD), but it should not be impossible for most to do.

[Zagen]

WAR for one. Even though they share the majority of PLD's PDT/MDT selection of armors (like Valhalla, Metallon Mantle, Nierenschutz, etc.) there is one piece they can't wear: Creed Cuirass +2. At high enmity that body piece mitigates 10ish% dmg taken. No body piece WAR has access to can top that.

WAR PDT:
Balestarius -8%
Valhalla Helm -5%
Twilight Torque -5%
Grim Cuirass +1 - 6%
Melaco Mittens -3%
Metallon Mantle -4%
Nierenschutz -3%
Dst. Subligar +1 -3%
Jingang Greaves -3%
Dark Ring x2 -12%
-52%

That's 2% above the cap well 1%~ due to fractions either way WAR can reach the Cap.

WAR MDT:
Iron Ram Lance -10%
Valhalla Helm -5%
Twilight Torque -5%
Merman's Earring x2 -4%
Cor. Scale Mail +1 -4%
Coral Fng. Gnt. +1 -3%
Dark Ring x2 -12%
Nierenschutz -3%
Coral Cuisses +1 -3%
Askar Gambieras -2%
51%

1% Above or at MDT cap(not counting Aegis cap)

So again how does WAR not reach damage caps? Are these the most practical armor sets? Not really but then again neither is a full -PDT set on PLD.



Next up is DRG. Gear wise, they share most of the PDT/MDT gear too (minus valhalla). But Creed Cuirass +2 (and Valhalla) still puts PLD ahead.
DRG PDT:
Iron Ram Lance -10%
Darksteel Cap +1 -2%
Twilight Torque -5%
Colossus's Earring -1%
Gavial Mail +1 -4%
Melaco Mittens -3%
Dark Ring x2 -12%
Metallon Mantle -4%
Nierenschutz -3%
Gavial Cuisses +1-4%
Jingang Greaves -3%
51%

DRG MDT:
Iron Ram Lance -10%
Hydra Mask +1 -3%
Twilight Torque -5%
Merman's Earring x2 -4%
Cor. Scale Mail +1 -4%
Gavial Fng.Gnt. +1 -4%
Dark Ring x2 -12%
Colossus's Mantle -2%
Nierenschutz -3%
Coral Cuisses +1 -3%
Askar Gambieras -2%
52%

Again just like WAR not the best gear in the world but even DRG can get to -PDT/MDT caps.

Since the key to tanking currently is damage dealing and not mitigating it neither of these 2 jobs nor PLD "need" defensive JAs to tank.

Nice try though DRG had me worried until I remembered the Gavial/Hydra set.

Edit: the MDT sets are more for me wanting to see if the 2 jobs could reach -50% not that they need to I believe its -22% or -23% again depending on the fractioning of each gear and Shell V merits.

[Aeonk]

refer to post below

[Aeonk]

Gear sets
While items like the Iron Ram lance do help WAR and DRG hit the 50% cap, I left it out because it's impractical. Sacrificing TP to go defensive everytime the mob gets ready to do something nasty... you probably won't be tanking anyway so the whole point of the set is moot.

That said, you did prove that WAR and DRG can hit the respective caps. I'll give you credit for that. But that's where the JA's come into play. They're not needed, but they do technically disqualify WAR or DRG from being better at dmg mitigation than PLD.

I do agree with the point you're making though. PLD does desperately need some Offensive tweaks to have an easier time fitting in with the current trend of gameplay. I'm all for that, have been since I started posting here.

[Zagen]

While items like the Iron Ram lance do help WAR and DRG hit the 50% cap, I left it out because it's impractical. Sacrificing TP to go defensive everytime the mob gets ready to do something nasty... you probably won't be tanking anyway so the whole point of the set is moot.

That said, you did prove that WAR and DRG can hit the respective caps. I'll give you credit for that. But that's where the JA's come into play. They're not needed, but they do technically disqualify WAR or DRG from being better at dmg mitigation than PLD.

I do agree with the point you're making though. PLD does desperately need some Offensive tweaks to have an easier time fitting in with the current trend of gameplay. I'm all for that, have been since I started posting here.
Haha it was more "Oh you're challenging me eh!?" kinda moment, and then the MDT was "I wonder if they could hit 50%" moment, even though they only need about half that with a WHM (though I "think" -MDT caps at -25% for gear, I foreget since I don't leave home without a WHM on stuff that matters). Boring day at work after all :D

On my DD jobs when I tank, I actually use 0 -PDT/MDT gear most of the time and for the NMs I've fought with DD + WHM I've managed just fine (except that stupid Ranger Gigas for Bri pop KI, that sucker is random) There just isn't a "need" on many of the jobs because my WHM mule isn't running out of MP.

[Aeonk]

Haha it was more "Oh you're challenging me eh!?" kinda moment, and then the MDT was "I wonder if they could hit 50%" moment, even though they only need about half that with a WHM (though I "think" -MDT caps at -25% for gear, I foreget since I don't leave home without a WHM on stuff that matters). Boring day at work after all :D

On my DD jobs when I tank, I actually use 0 -PDT/MDT gear most of the time and for the NMs I've fought with DD + WHM I've managed just fine (except that stupid Ranger Gigas for Bri pop KI, that sucker is random) There just isn't a "need" on many of the jobs because my WHM mule isn't running out of MP.
Agreed. I keep enough MDT gear to cap on a macro and most of my PDT stuff on standby (unless I'm expecting near perma-stun/terror.) And that's more than enough in abyssea.
I'll admit, it's nice seeing someone else on the same wave length, rather than the same "raise PLD's hate cap" crap arguements.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Haha it was more "Oh you're challenging me eh!?" kinda moment, and then the MDT was "I wonder if they could hit 50%" moment, even though they only need about half that with a WHM (though I "think" -MDT caps at -25% for gear, I foreget since I don't leave home without a WHM on stuff that matters). Boring day at work after all :D

On my DD jobs when I tank, I actually use 0 -PDT/MDT gear most of the time and for the NMs I've fought with DD + WHM I've managed just fine (except that stupid Ranger Gigas for Bri pop KI, that sucker is random) There just isn't a "need" on many of the jobs because my WHM mule isn't running out of MP.

And that is the point in Abyssea WHM never does so it's irrelevant the DMG you take when they can heal you up, never take the hate or run out of MP.

But 99 is coming and Abyssea isn't being expanded on, so unless crazy ATMA comes outside or you have a RDM and BRD all the time the WHM WILL run out of MP. You wont have ridiculous HP, cruor buffs and so on so you can take the previously deadly moves like Spike Flail and laugh it off.

[Nebo]

I never see Thf's SATA plds in abyssea either.

Maybe if you guys would sit still or close enough to the mob that I'm not outside of melee range!!!

/sarcasm

In exp alliances, it is not very practical. Everything is moving around so much, I'm Trick AAttacking the nearest DD when my timer is up. Waiting to line up just to the PLD is going to be counterproductive. The rest of the time I'm going to be the one tanking most likely, so...come stand in front of me I guess?

For NM's, again if the THF isn't tanking it would be in everyone's best interest for him/her to Trick Attack the tank. TH procs and all.

[Zagen]

And that is the point in Abyssea WHM never does so it's irrelevant the DMG you take when they can heal you up, never take the hate or run out of MP.

But 99 is coming and Abyssea isn't being expanded on, so unless crazy ATMA comes outside or you have a RDM and BRD all the time the WHM WILL run out of MP. You wont have ridiculous HP, cruor buffs and so on so you can take the previously deadly moves like Spike Flail and laugh it off.

DD + WHM + BRD/RDM = Abyssea style WHM + DD combo all over again. BRD/RDM with +2 legs and that ballad harp from AVNM can do 9MP/tick with Ballad2/3 + Refresh for 12MP/tick, this doesn't count the Refresh gear a WHM can get (off the top of my head, head +1, body +2, quest legs +1, Hands/Feet +1 for another +5mp/tick)

Lower HP isn't a "huge" concern it hasn't been for a few DD jobs (MNK/THF/NIN/DNC come to mind) they have either Subtle Blow, High Evasion, or ways to reduce TP gain of the monster to a controllable rate while still dealing damage.

Not only that but adding BRD buffs on the DD tank = faster kill. BRD debuffs help make for an easier kill as well unless they full on get resisted.

Also FYI unless Sentinel is up Spike Flail rips through a PLD's HP too.

Unless SE does something either be it nerfing DD's damage output on monsters in the future or upping PLD's damage potential PLD will be an inferior job that is used by personal job preference not superior tanking ability.

[Himrik]

Looking at the enmity table, there's a simple way of "nerfing" enmity without nerfing damage output.
Enmity gain via damage should take Max HP in factor, as enmity loss via damage do.

Against HNM with thousands of HP, DD's will gain less enmity when compared to JA or Curing

[Zetonegi]

Looking at the enmity table, there's a simple way of "nerfing" enmity without nerfing damage output.
Enmity gain via damage should take Max HP in factor, as enmity loss via damage do.

Against HNM with thousands of HP, DD's will gain less enmity when compared to JA or Curing
No that wouldn't work. It would make any job that isn't trying to tank not tank, meaning the healers would be tanking. If you're dividing by a factor of a few thousand(how much HP NORMAL mobs in abyssea have) the WHM would end up tanking over every job that doesn't have access to some kind of provoke. You would have to make a fairly complex function that takes into account things like mob level, is it an NM, how strong of an NM is it, etc. so that DDs can outpace cures and sleeps BUT they can't outpace a dedicated tank. Additionally, why wouldn't you just use a NIN who does more damage and can hold hate fairly well thanks to /DRK or even /PLD? And if they change how damage gives hate, why WOULDN'T you just get the BLM army back together since there would no longer be a downside to spam nuking.

No, the problem with PLD isn't because hate is screwy, its because PLDs can't DD. That's been the problem with PLD ever since Monks discovered that if they punch skeletons hard enough they don't actually need someone to be a tank. It became much more pronounced in Aht Urhgan when SE gave us paper mache birds in the form of Colibri.

In the past SE got away with simply giving PLD an easier job keeping hate because the DD jobs still needed someone to be a dedicated tank but defensive abilities and ease of holding hate won't save PLD when the most of the jobs its trying to hold hate from are very much capable of tanking as well. There are 2 options SE can go with PLD, 1) They can do a series of buffs to PLD in addition to releasing new NMs such that PLD is the only job that can reliably tank them. Or 2) give PLD boosts to its offensive prowess, directly or indirectly, so that it can fill the roll of DD/Tank like most of the old pure DDs have. I don't know about you but I'd prefer a buff to PLDs DD potential over crazy NMs that require a PLD.

[Laciante]

While items like the Iron Ram lance do help WAR and DRG hit the 50% cap, I left it out because it's impractical. Sacrificing TP to go defensive every time the mob gets ready to do something nasty...

While swapping spears when you start taking lethal dmg isn't practical; using the IR Lance, or the Earth Magian spear later on, as your weapon when you expect to take damage is fully possible, as they have comparable dmg to other commonly used weapons of their level, so you won't be losing much DPS.

And my note about losing Provoke, in an earlier post was a joke, I know full well Provoke is not a necessity ;P

[Zagen]

In the past SE got away with simply giving PLD an easier job keeping hate because the DD jobs still needed someone to be a dedicated tank but defensive abilities and ease of holding hate won't save PLD when the most of the jobs its trying to hold hate from are very much capable of tanking as well. There are 2 options SE can go with PLD, 1) They can do a series of buffs to PLD in addition to releasing new NMs such that PLD is the only job that can reliably tank them. Or 2) give PLD boosts to its offensive prowess, directly or indirectly, so that it can fill the roll of DD/Tank like most of the old pure DDs have. I don't know about you but I'd prefer a buff to PLDs DD potential over crazy NMs that require a PLD.

Is this back in the day when people thought IT++ EXP was the way to go and turtle PLDs ran rampant even though back then T-VT chains were better back then?

PLD wasn't "better" back then either it was just what people assumed needed to be used and were close minded to other concepts.

I agree with the boost to DD option over beefy NMs because honestly outside of Relic/Mythic/Empyrean items PLD isn't better than most DD jobs at tanking even if you nerf their damage potential.

[Zetonegi]

Is this back in the day when people thought IT++ EXP was the way to go and turtle PLDs ran rampant even though back then T-VT chains were better back then?
No, most of the PLD buffs came out around the time Aht Urhgan came out, Shield Mastery and Auto Refresh came out a bit before it while several buffs, such as the Sentinel and Rampart change as well as the Shield Mastery preventing spell interruption, came after the release.

[Himrik]

Even if SE boost the offensive part, it doesn't seem logical that PLD deal greater damage than other DD.
And if we don't, we'll still be useless.

Turtle build is for mitigate damage, not really to keep hate.
It doesn't seem weird to me that you need JA to build hate when you're a tank.
Provoke is only used to claim these days, strange, for a JA that was designed to give a lot of hate.

If DD gain less enmity by damage alone, they indeed will rely again on JA that gives fixed amount of enmity.

[Malacite]

I agree that a 3-minute Sentinel would be a great fix, but it would need some tweaking.

The damage down would start at 90% and decay to 75~ by the 1st minute, 40~50% by the 2nd minute and then reduce at a rapid rate during the final minute. The entire time however, enmity of other players should be suppressed in addition to the reduced enmity decay for PLD.

The whole point of having a PLD around is to take the hits and keep the mob out other people's faces, and if SE is unwilling to raise the enmity cap then I feel this is the next best thing that wouldn't be horrendously broken. In addition, I'd like to quote a post by Obsidian over at BG, as he brought up a great suggestion.

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/105039-Dev-Tracker-Job-adjustments-3rd-June-2011/page4


If they're determined to keep PLD as the only purely defensive job in the game, making Cover a job trait instead of an ability would go a long way. The gear enhancing Cover would actually be worth carrying around, and then it wouldn't matter if PLD could hold hate or not. Stack everyone behind him and you're golden. Change the G1 Cover merit to -6% damage taken while covering someone, and rise by 1%/merit to a cap of -10% damage taken while covering someone.


This would pretty much solidify PLD's role and stop all the crying once and for all, and I really don't think it's unreasonable in the least. PLD should not require Almace or Ochain just to be even remotely effective compared to WAR MNK or NIN.

[Himrik]

Changing cover can be a good idea, but the problem is always the same, as long as all DD can keep hate off mages, and can survive long fights with a WHM cure bombing, parties don't need a PLD.
DD shouldn't be able to tank so easily, so their enmity gain should be lowered in some way. Even if the hate cap is increased, they would still reach the cap faster than PLD.