Raise the minimum allowable job level in Abyssea from 30 to 70+

[Cream_Soda]

oh, well in that case, people who like to exp (key whore) but just don't like the strategy she uses could say the same, no?

[Dubberrucky]

It has nothing to do with feeling better. It has to do with everyone has things they like and things they dislike. That was my only point and it just happens that some people dislike leveling in the fashion that you do like.

Hence, letting people choose how they level. You level how you want. I'm not trying to force my way of leveling on you. All I ask for in return is the same notion.

Well, I only did it once (cor) and there was a lot of people I knew there, so the time just flew by. I didn't find it to be a boring experience.

Had it not known anyone and actually paid attention to only the boxes, that may or may not have been a different case, but i can't say, because that was not my situation.

Edit: Where as lving cor 10-30 was such a drag and one of more boring things I've done on this game. 1-10 was actually fun, but I find all jobs 1-10 to be fun, so no surprise there.

OK then by what you just said the end all be all of enjoyable leveling is leeching. Nothing that SE does to the game will change that for "the majority" of players. That exact attitude is what put this whole thread right into the gutter. I never said leave the outside of abyssea alone or that SE shouldn't change things around to make leveling faster than it used to be, they have already taken steps in this direction that are being used but not so much by oldschool parties. Maybe even give 30- 60ish jobs their own aby zone to play in if people really only like to aby party? People on both sides of this thread have looked at as an end all be all and its not the game changes constantly and has done so for many years. I mean exactly what I said and have said again in several dozen ways and stand by is that a level 30 has no business in a zone designed for 75+.

[Avina]

oh, well in that case, people who like to exp (key whore) but just don't like the strategy she uses could say the same, no?

Absolutely.

[Cream_Soda]

OK then by what you just said the end all be all of enjoyable leveling is leeching.

I never said that.

I said people should level the way they want to.

[Dubberrucky]

I never said that.

I said people should level the way they want to.

According to you as well as many other people in this thread its either the old way that "sucks" or leeching your levels neither of which needs to be true as we have all seen but suggestions for compromise between the 2 sides have been largely ignored when they shouldn't be. Contrary to your belife leeching effects everyone on the game not just those who leech if it was actually possible to avoid leechers 100% I would be a happy camper but its not there is no reliable way to avoid partying with them while still enjoying the broader scope of the game. If there was a way to label people who leech in a /search this would be a nonissue.

[Cream_Soda]

There are people who play your way and still suck, so I'm not really seeing your point here. They have an affect on everyone as well.

There are going to be horrible players and yes, you're 100% right, we can't avoid them all 100% of the time, but guess what. Leechers aren't the only people in that category.

[rog]

Whether other people enjoy it or not, if you do not, then your claims of enjoying the entire game are false. As for me, I enjoyed doing chests when I leveled Corsair (only job I leveled prior to 75 in abysssea)
Actually i kind of liked it too. It was mildly entertaining. Certainly nothing i'd want to do regularly, but every once in a while, i wouldn't mind it.

[nobodyhere]

it not like old fastion way stinks just if ya want a instant 90 job this way shouldnt be first choice
i dont care if ya do it but damn lol skilling up sucks
i would hate to do it but that just me

[Dubberrucky]

There are people who play your way and still suck, so I'm not really seeing your point here. They have an affect on everyone as well.

There are going to be horrible players and yes, you're 100% right, we can't avoid them all 100% of the time, but guess what. Leechers aren't the only people in that category.

Any way people level there will still be those who do not grasp the game. Since abyssea leeching this number has risen significantly but you are just causing me to beat an dead horse here that you already know but do not choose to look at the effect it does have on others in the game. If it was not a problem and leeches stuck to partying in party's OK with it no one would care either way. As we all know the honor system does not work so unless someone comes up with a good solution this topic will never die.

[Zumi]

Who really cares if someone takes their level 30 character in abyssea to do keys for exp. Not me.

There are other problems that could be fixed this really isn't a problem at all.

[Greatguardian]

ITT: People who are only recently beginning to grasp basic to advanced game mechanics think that the "Bad player influx" (a very mild term) started or increased with Abyssea.

Hint: It didn't. There were thousands of level 75, absolutely horrid players who ruined the game for other people when they managed to get in some sort of group with them years before Abyssea was released. Don't kid yourself into thinking Key-Mastering has allowed a higher number of these people to level up. Before Abyssea, it was East Ronfaure birds and level sync that made everyone hit max level and suck at their jobs. Before East Ronfaure birds and level sync it was Lesser Colibri and ToAU exp that made everyone hit max level and suck at their jobs.

The only thing Abyssea has created is a huge section of FFXI's 'Middle Class' that have managed to gain some autonomy with the release of easily accessible lowman-oriented endgame content and let it go to their heads. There's a reason every top tier player posting in this thread just wants it to end.

[Dubberrucky]

ITT: People who are only recently beginning to grasp basic to advanced game mechanics think that the "Bad player influx" (a very mild term) started or increased with Abyssea.

Hint: It didn't. There were thousands of level 75, absolutely horrid players who ruined the game for other people when they managed to get in some sort of group with them years before Abyssea was released. Don't kid yourself into thinking Key-Mastering has allowed a higher number of these people to level up. Before Abyssea, it was East Ronfaure birds and level sync that made everyone hit max level and suck at their jobs. Before East Ronfaure birds and level sync it was Lesser Colibri and ToAU exp that made everyone hit max level and suck at their jobs.

The only thing Abyssea has created is a huge section of FFXI's 'Middle Class' that have managed to gain some autonomy with the release of easily accessible lowman-oriented endgame content and let it go to their heads. There's a reason every top tier player posting in this thread just wants it to end.

The increase is not only in the amount of people but in the amount of jobs a distinct difference. People are cutting corners and being lazy on more jobs. This results in on top of an already strugleing to keep up player who just does not grasp the game an otherwise good player coming to an event or party as some gimped crapily played job. Therefore it has worsened the problem that it is so readily available and quick to do like it or not to those who believe aby burning is the best thing since sliced bread. To say that it doesn't exist without it or that it has not increase since introduction is rather naive regardless of opinion on whether the level should be raised.

[Greatguardian]

Okay.

Let's take this one step at a time since you seem to refuse to use paragraph breaks or differentiate between your ideas at all.

There are not more players in general that are max level and bad, you have conceded this point.

Instead, you contend that more of these bad, max level players have more jobs at max level that they are bad at.

Okay. Next you're asserting that *Otherwise Good Players* will now come to things on poorly geared, unskilled jobs.

I contest this point and assert myself that any otherwise good player would not use a poorly geared, unskilled job until it was properly geared and skilled.

You then contend that the problem is that leveling jobs is readily available and quick.

I contest this point and assert that leveling has no effect on whether or not someone is a bad player, or has multiple unskilled jobs.

You then say that it would be naive to believe that [quick and easy leveling] doesn't exist without [Abyssea], and [unskilled player numbers] have not increased since [Abyssea's] introduction.

It does. They haven't. People are still dumb. Leveling has been easy for years. The difference now is... No, there's no difference now. Just more bad players looking down on worse players.

[Seis]

The increase is not only in the amount of people but in the amount of jobs a distinct difference. People are cutting corners and being lazy on more jobs. This results in on top of an already strugleing to keep up player who just does not grasp the game an otherwise good player coming to an event or party as some gimped crapily played job. Therefore it has worsened the problem that it is so readily available and quick to do like it or not to those who believe aby burning is the best thing since sliced bread. To say that it doesn't exist without it or that it has not increase since introduction is rather naive regardless of opinion on whether the level should be raised.

Eh, it's not like bad players have been increasing. Most of the playerbase has been around for years.

Rather, I think you're confusing the real issue. Instead of sitting in town for days trying to organize events (before bads ruined it for you), you now get to do it inside an hour - because there's more people to choose from and party structure is largely irrelevant. It's not that the problem got worse, it's that it's more emphasized, and most people will take that, because their chances to succeed went up as well.

[Xilk]

arguing w/ Dubber on this point is pretty useless. The point stays the same but the reason behind it just cycles through the ninjutsu elemental wheel. 3 full cycles so far on this thread?

[Dubberrucky]

Meh probably more than 3 but when people continue to miss the point it keeps on going. It amuses me that they all get so bothered by a different opinion but I could give an entire book of reasons that I have that opinion lol.

[rog]

Meh probably more than 3 but when people continue to miss the point it keeps on going. It amuses me that they all get so bothered by a different opinion but I could give an entire book of reasons that I have that opinion lol.
Maybe if you had a point to make that wasn't wrong, we wouldn't miss it. When someone says something sooo beyond stupid, many people will simply assume they misunderstood, or that you worded it poorly, and assume you meant something else. After all, why would you ever intentionally say something that is so stupid, and wrong?

[Xilk]

Meh probably more than 3 but when people continue to miss the point it keeps on going. It amuses me that they all get so bothered by a different opinion but I could give an entire book of reasons that I have that opinion lol.

no body is missing the point but you. Changing the claimed underlying reason is what you do when your reason is smashed to the ground as completely invalid or just not important to others. Then rinse recycle. Its almost like arguing by filibuster. Tire them out so they don't care to keep repeating themselves since you can't just keep talking to prevent anyone else from having the chance.

I think this thread makes it pretty clear that most do not share your opinion.

[MetalKhaos]

I have to sort of agree with that. I see many people burning to 90 through Abyssea, but do not gain any of the skills from actually going through the process of leveling up. I understand also though that many people won't even exp in many of the old places as well.

[Cream_Soda]

but do not gain any of the skills from actually going through the process of leveling up.So, please. Tell me what skills a smn main heal gets lv'ing 10-75+ (because that's all they ever get invited for) to help them with their use of avatars at 90.

What skills do rdm get in exp pts 10-75+ that make them better soloist than bsts at 90 or the best fell cleave burn pullers?

etc. etc. etc.

The way you play 99% of the jobs 1-89 is not how you play them at 90.

[Bahamut_Norm]

The way you play 99% of the jobs 1-89 is not how you play them at 90.

So uh, what skills do they get in abyssea by opening chests helps them at 90?

You know, let's just not have levels anymore. It seems like too much work.

Let's just forget that whole Maat thing, while we're at it.

[rog]

So uh, what skills do they get in abyssea by opening chests helps them at 90?
None.

Which isn't much worse than what you'd get from killing some pink birds.

[Cream_Soda]

So uh, what skills do they get in abyssea by opening chests helps them at 90?
When did I ever claim that's where you got skills? You guys are the ones claiming that skill comes from leveling the traditional way.

I'm saying neither gives you skill at a job.

Research your damn job and once you do the research practice the proper application of what you researched. That's where the skill comes from.

If you can do what I just said above, it matters not how you get to 90, so level the way you prefer.

If you like to level traditionally, do so. If you prefer to open chests, do so.

In the end, if you research your job, and are able to apply what you learned in game, you will be a good player.

[Fiarlia]

Research your damn job and once you do the research practice the proper application of what you researched. That's where the skill comes from.

If you can do what I just said above, it matters not how you get to 90, so level the way you prefer.

If you like to level traditionally, do so. If you prefer to open chests, do so.

In the end, if you research your job, and are able to apply what you learned in game, you will be a good player.

This. So many times this. I don't get why all the people screaming that Abyssea ruined exp, or the game, or people think we're trying to force our preferred way of exping on them.

[Ilax]

To be honest, i did not read all this thread, i can just imagine is just a tons of QQ, i am just surprise that people cry to get it more easy, leveling never been that easy, next step of SE would be to make your Character lv90 on creation with full skill. i mean common guy, can't ask SE to do better then what it is already. Level form 1 to 11 can be done in 1h max, then you can smn burn from 11 to 30 in another 1h... and in 3~5 hours can jump form 30 to 90... Skill up frequency been raised...

[Chrisstreb]

Really though in all honesty, if you don't research the job(s) you leveled up via key leeching in Abyssea, and learn how to play them in some way shape or form before Level 30, then you shouldn't really play the job. For some people (myself included), I see the leeching as a way to take up jobs I've wanted to take up for a while but dont want to spends weeks (sometimes even months) to get it to 75 (90 these days). Theres jobs I took up into the 50s and 60s before the increased level caps that I've wanted to do but couldn't since I really didn't have the extra time to do those jobs, and know how to play those jobs already, Abyssea Leeching is just a way to get your job up to the higher levels faster so you can enjoy it more. Sadly, these days though... see way too many people playing on jobs that really don't know what they are doing... Full Aurore DNCs are one of them that comes to mind, I see SMNs full-timing AF1, and have since the Level Sync introduction.... What Abyssea introduced was more people playing jobs poorly, but it's not the sole reason for it. Level Sync really introduced it in some aspects.

[Bahamut_Norm]

I don't usually reply more than once to anyone with Justin Bieber in their signature, but I'll make an exception this one time.


I'm saying neither gives you skill at a job.

Oh, did square introduce that patch that makes all jobs melees that don't time shadows, learn spells, gear swap, use any job abilities, self-skill-chains and stand idly about 90 percent of the time only to use a single command on a non threatening NPC target to auto-win simple fights?

I suppose in that case, you're right.


practice the proper application of what you researched. That's where the skill comes from.

Well, I guess a pickup Shinryu fight is just perfect for practice then! Who cares if you have no actual melee skill. There's an an atma for that, right?


This. So many times this. I don't get why all the people screaming that Abyssea ruined exp, or the game, or people think we're trying to force our preferred way of exping on them.

Now that's an interesting and somewhat true statement. There are some people who react with rather strong hyperbole about what the effects of Abyssea actually are. To some extent, their complaints are invalid. Though, I don't think I've actually ever heard anyone say something so far as it's being "forced upon them."

Furthermore, this thread isn't concerning the greater effects of Abyssea, just the great deal of imbalance caused at levels that are far below what one might expect to be appropriate.

[Cream_Soda]

Well, I guess a pickup Shinryu fight is just perfect for practice then! Who cares if you have no actual melee skill. There's an an atma for that, right?

You can get plenty of practice in while you're skilling up from being so far behind. By the time you get your skills capped you should be versed in your job, provided you actually did research and was applying it during your skill up time.

Fighting robber crabs and colibri isn't going to get you ready for Shinryu, either.

[Ilax]

Really though in all honesty, if you don't research the job(s) you leveled up via key leeching in Abyssea, and learn how to play them in some way shape or form before Level 30, then you shouldn't really play the job. For some people (myself included), I see the leeching as a way to take up jobs I've wanted to take up for a while but dont want to spends weeks (sometimes even months) to get it to 75 (90 these days). Theres jobs I took up into the 50s and 60s before the increased level caps that I've wanted to do but couldn't since I really didn't have the extra time to do those jobs, and know how to play those jobs already, Abyssea Leeching is just a way to get your job up to the higher levels faster so you can enjoy it more. Sadly, these days though... see way too many people playing on jobs that really don't know what they are doing... Full Aurore DNCs are one of them that comes to mind, I see SMNs full-timing AF1, and have since the Level Sync introduction.... What Abyssea introduced was more people playing jobs poorly, but it's not the sole reason for it. Level Sync really introduced it in some aspects.

I did all my job to 75 pre-abyssea release, and to be honest there not much difference, when you level job like BLM (let say the hardest way) then you have to buy spell/gear/song and so on, that you might never use again at lv75 (or let now say 90) I could have say something different back in the time where CoP was still caped, but is not anymore the case.

To say someone will play better just because he did from lv1 to 90 the hard way is just wrong, i have just too many job to keep track of all new JA/Magic/strategy etc, no matter how good i was with all job 75, it worth nothing anymore for me since every job have a different play style since abyssea got introduced. So what i mean is i had to relearn everything for all job, so i am not more expert then any new player rushing his job to 90. (i still have more general experience, but what that worth since everyone interest is only abyssea now... And who say what i learned will really apply for lv99 release...)

Just a quick example, Look at warrior, they fell cleave 40 mob at the same time (no way you going to learn how to do this pre-90). Do they really need to know how to SC with other mele job? Or learn how to Trick attack tank, so why even bother anymore with these detail. For WHM you don't really need cure bomb everyone for 2,000 hours to learn the job... For RDM job, well is kinda messed up for them, they just have too many play style. Anyway i am not going to talk about all job, but in general what i learned pre-abyssea and what it is now is 2 different world.

[Fiarlia]

Oh, did square introduce that patch that makes all jobs melees that don't time shadows, learn spells, gear swap, use any job abilities, self-skill-chains and stand idly about 90 percent of the time only to use a single command on a non threatening NPC target to auto-win simple fights?

I suppose in that case, you're right.

His comment runs under the assumption that the people who would read up on their jobs and be able to apply said knowledge within the game would be the ones likely to skillup their weapons, get the spells, skill their magic, understand how to skillchain and magic bust and so on. He does not in any way say you learn what you need to by leeching. He merely contests that you don't need to do a normal party in order to learn (and apply) those skills or tactics either.

I for one, agree with this. If you've been playing the game for a while you should be well aware that there were plenty of level 75's that were horrible. Even before the introduction of Level Sync. Even before the introduction of Campaign. And also before ToAU was introduced.

One of his main points is that gimps have always existed and will always exist. The way they level has zero impact on this. An idiot that whacks away at Robber Crabs or Colibri to 75 (90) will still be an idiot. An idiot that keys chests to 90 will still be an idiot. Many other people are trying to argue that Abyssea has produced more idiots, which they're mostly attributing to key leeching. The people who are smart will pretty much always be smart at their job. None of the jobs in the game are hard, and any reasonable person will be able to properly gear their job and play it regardless of how they got it to level 90. The smart people I'm talking about are likely to understand the value of having their spells, skilling their weapons and understanding how to properly time shadows and/or other spells.

Making people level the "original way" will serve as nothing more than a timesink and/or cockblock (if people abhor the original way of leveling) if the player in question is good. Making the bad players level the "original way" will do nothing to improve their performance, and they'll still make it to max level one way or another. The only valid argument I'm seeing against Abyssea leeching is that these bad players will have more jobs at max level. I will concede and agree on this point. Though, I'll ask in return: what difference does that make? They'll be terrible whether they have one job at max level or all 20. They'll just have more flexibility when it comes to grouping with other terrible players. Again, so what? If it takes 18 terrible players to do what a group of smart players could do with 2-6, then hey, at least they can get some shit done for themselves. Abyssea leeching is not the problem. The problem is the players themselves. As has been mentioned before, this can be solved by playing with people you know and trust, or finding people that can trust, and get to know them.


Now that's an interesting and somewhat true statement. There are some people who react with rather strong hyperbole about what the effects of Abyssea actually are. To some extent, their complaints are invalid. Though, I don't think I've actually ever heard anyone say something so far as it's being "forced upon them."

Furthermore, this thread isn't concerning the greater effects of Abyssea, just the great deal of imbalance caused at levels that are far below what one might expect to be appropriate.

Read the title of this thread. Now read some of the others thread titles. Now go to some other forums and read those threads. Or even just the topic titles. Hell, just read soem of the posts in this very topic. The idea of "nerfing" Abyssea leeching is fairly prevalent. There are people who want to raise the level cap to 70 to enter Abyssea, or (further) reduce the exp gain to characters in Abyssea under level 75 (70, 90, whatever arbitrary number they decide to use). These are the people trying to "force" their ideas and ways upon others, offering up whatever explanation they can can up with, however ridiculous and/or stupid it might be to make it happen and make it seem like a legitimate concern or issue.

Meanwhile, most everyone in the other camp (the people that like or support leeching) are not arguing that it should be the only option. In fact, many people (myself included) are saying that there is an issue with exp outside Abyssea, even with the new upgrades. I'm all for revamping or enhancing exp in other areas. I understand there are people who wish to exp the old way. I have zero problem with this. If they wanna do it, by all means let them! Make it more viable, too! Hell, I might even do it once in a while for fun. Nearly everyone arguing against the people that want to stop Abyssea leeching has said the same.

I don't want to take away from others enjoyment of the game... so why are they trying to do it to me (and by extension, the others who like Abyssea leeching)? Everyone should be able to level the way they choose, putting a stop to Abyssea leeching is not conducive to this idea.

Any anger or arguing you're seeing from "this side" of the fence is only shooting down the reasons people are asking for Abyssea leeching to stop, because any reason that has been offered is complete bullshit, as well as any reason I can come up with.

[Fiarlia]

Oh, and let me clarify something before it's mentioned. I know that there are not two levels of skill with players; only utterly stupid versus only completely awesome.

My definition of a good player, at least in terms of my above post, is anyone who does not fall into the stupid category. An average player may not be as good as a super hardcore elitist, but will still have the mental capacity to read some stuff on the wiki, or ask friends, and perhaps even peruse a few forums for the general gist of what they should be doing. Their in game performance may not wow you, but it certainly won't disgust you either. They may not know the formulas and be able to tell you what pDIF even means, or begin to calculate when their fSTR is capped, but they're certainly not borderline chin-nibblers.

These people, despite not necessarily being the cream of the crop, are more than able and competent enough to play their jobs well, and gear fairly well.

[rog]

I did all my job to 75 pre-abyssea release, and to be honest there not much difference, when you level job like BLM (let say the hardest way) then you have to buy spell/gear/song and so on, that you might never use again at lv75 (or let now say 90) I could have say something different back in the time where CoP was still caped, but is not anymore the case.

To say someone will play better just because he did from lv1 to 90 the hard way is just wrong, i have just too many job to keep track of all new JA/Magic/strategy etc, no matter how good i was with all job 75, it worth nothing anymore for me since every job have a different play style since abyssea got introduced. So what i mean is i had to relearn everything for all job, so i am not more expert then any new player rushing his job to 90. (i still have more general experience, but what that worth since everyone interest is only abyssea now... And who say what i learned will really apply for lv99 release...)

Just a quick example, Look at warrior, they fell cleave 40 mob at the same time (no way you going to learn how to do this pre-90). Do they really need to know how to SC with other mele job? Or learn how to Trick attack tank, so why even bother anymore with these detail. For WHM you don't really need cure bomb everyone for 2,000 hours to learn the job... For RDM job, well is kinda messed up for them, they just have too many play style. Anyway i am not going to talk about all job, but in general what i learned pre-abyssea and what it is now is 2 different world.
Knowing how to 1shot pets is very important to a blm too.

[Chaani]

His comment runs under the assumption that the people who would read up on their jobs and be able to apply said knowledge within the game would be the ones likely to skillup their weapons, get the spells, skill their magic, understand how to skillchain and magic bust and so on. He does not in any way say you learn what you need to by leeching. He merely contests that you don't need to do a normal party in order to learn (and apply) those skills or tactics either.


I completely agree with this. Those that take the time to learn their jobs are going to regardless of which path they take. My roommate, who plays, leveled warrior casually with my in-game friends and I during the heyday of toau. It wasn't until we brought her to our small number Dynamis runs of between 4-6 people that she admittedly said she saw what her role was, that being co-tanking and switching to tanking if a rogue statue is running around. Also, generally learning to be aware of where everyone is, which groupings of mobs are asleep and things to do when routine breaks down.

That kind of strategy and awareness isn't going to be learned fighting crabs and colibri.

Abyssea has nothing to do with anything with regards to the average skill level of the player base. The biggest component of skill in FFXI is related to paying attention, either you're going to, or you're not, Abyssea did not change this.

[Sama]

For bad players they simply DON'T deserve the fast xp just like every other hard working players.

[Randwolf]

First job is actually new, and was tolerable. second-tenth job were leveled to help in endgame/to kill time between other things/etc.

It's one thing doing something the first, second, maybe even third time. By the time you get to the 10th+ job, that 5k/hr simply doesn't cut it anymore.
This is probably the statement I most agree with.

I think if new players were forced at gunpoint to stay in the game until they finished 1 job to at least 75 the old way, they might get a greater appreciation for the evolution of the game. They might gain some of the work ethic involved in keeping your sub leveled, working to get your gear, LFP for hours or putting together your own party, cursing S/E when 100 Fists was 100 Whiffs pre-sushi, fighting to get a claim on Moon Pass spawn, traveling all over the world to find the best Exp spot that wasn't completely over-camped, dying to idiots who pulled trains to zone and closed down the Nest, and so on. However, since they can just quit, it probably wouldn't work. And, I don't want to go back to the old way of leveling jobs myself just so that the new players have to go through it too. It was hell. Glad I did it. But, I don't need to relive the pain to remember all the lessons I learned during that climb.

[Ilax]

Knowing how to 1shot pets is very important to a blm too.

God i loved that part on BLM :) no worry, it was also awesome to MB every battle back in the old day, kinda sad that many will never experience that, but i have more bad memory back in that time then good one, like LFG on my BLM 10h and have to run @ Sky to get tell sorry the PT disbanded lol oh well, i can't say the Abyssea experience is that bad, not at all :)

[Bahamut_Norm]

His comment runs under the assumption that the people who would read up on their jobs and be able to apply said knowledge within the game would be the ones likely to skillup their weapons, get the spells, skill their magic, understand how to skillchain and magic bust and so on. He does not in any way say you learn what you need to by leeching. He merely contests that you don't need to do a normal party in order to learn (and apply) those skills or tactics either.

I for one, agree with this. If you've been playing the game for a while you should be well aware that there were plenty of level 75's that were horrible. Even before the introduction of Level Sync. Even before the introduction of Campaign. And also before ToAU was introduced.

I agree, to this much, to an extent. Someone who's chronically on one extreme end of the spectrum will likely stay there. However, people are not made of extremes.


One of his main points is that gimps have always existed and will always exist. The way they level has zero impact on this. An idiot that whacks away at Robber Crabs or Colibri to 75 (90) will still be an idiot. An idiot that keys chests to 90 will still be an idiot. Many other people are trying to argue that Abyssea has produced more idiots, which they're mostly attributing to key leeching. The people who are smart will pretty much always be smart at their job.

This is where we diverge. The real issue up for debate that I and obviously others strongly believe (and I realize this is a subjective personal belief that neither of us can provide any evidence for) that the current situation is much more conducive to, well, the furtherance of idiots.

You cannot seriously try and tell me that practice of leveling does not have some positive impact in the development of skill in an averagely skilled player. You just can't, it assumes people are incapable of learning.

Furthermore, do not even dare attempt a package-deal fallacy here. Just because some gimps will always be gimps does not mean that adjustments to game balance and difficulty encouraging players to develop skill has no impact on any of them.


None of the jobs in the game are hard, and any reasonable person will be able to properly gear their job and play it regardless of how they got it to level 90. The smart people I'm talking about are likely to understand the value of having their spells, skilling their weapons and understanding how to properly time shadows and/or other spells.

Again, another bunch of fallacies. No, jobs themselves are not hard. Situations in which skill is required to play said jobs correctly can be hard. Practice improves this skill level in reasonably skilled players. Are you trying to tell me that there is nothing to be gained from practice?


Making people level the "original way" will serve as nothing more than a timesink and/or cockblock (if people abhor the original way of leveling) if the player in question is good.

Then why even play the game at that point? What would said player even be seeking to accomplish? Compare;


I got my PLD to 99, hooray!

To:


There, I finally leeched PLD to 99. Now I'll do BLM.

Doesn't sound very rewarding, does it? Why even bother making it a game? Seriously, this isn't a rhetorical question. Why play a game if you don't actually want to be challenged on some level? Guitar hero wouldn't be popular if you could win just by pushing the start button.

Sure, it doesn't remove all challange from the game, but you sure can't deny it removes a portion of it. The significance, being very relative person to person.


...If it takes 18 terrible players to do what a group of smart players could do with 2-6, then hey, at least they can get some shit done for themselves.

Agreed, but not relevant to my point.


Abyssea leeching is not the problem. The problem is the players themselves. As has been mentioned before, this can be solved by playing with people you know and trust, or finding people that can trust, and get to know them.

Correct, Abyssea leeching is not the problem. The imbalance it creates is. Trust is totally irrelevant to my point.


These are the people trying to "force" their ideas and ways upon others, offering up whatever explanation they can can up with, however ridiculous and/or stupid it might be to make it happen and make it seem like a legitimate concern or issue.

That's a matter of perspective. What you call forcing, I call game balance. The historically carefully maintained game balance is one of the largest appeals of FFXI and one of the highest valued by it's player base. The sheer number of these topics should be a clear demonstration of that.


Meanwhile, most everyone in the other camp (the people that like or support leeching) are not arguing that it should be the only option.

Irrelevant to the discussion.


In fact, many people (myself included) are saying that there is an issue with exp outside Abyssea, even with the new upgrades...Hell, I might even do it once in a while for fun. Nearly everyone arguing against the people that want to stop Abyssea leeching has said the same.

So you haven't actually experienced the changes from the update, but you believe it's not enough anyway?


I don't want to take away from others enjoyment of the game... so why are they trying to do it to me (and by extension, the others who like Abyssea leeching)? Everyone should be able to level the way they choose, putting a stop to Abyssea leeching is not conducive to this idea.

Do not appeal to consequences, no one is trying to suck the fun out of the game for you. They are in favor of maintaining game balance.


Any anger or arguing you're seeing from "this side" of the fence is only shooting down the reasons people are asking for Abyssea leeching to stop, because any reason that has been offered is complete bullshit, as well as any reason I can come up with.

Really?


The only valid argument I'm seeing against Abyssea leeching is that these bad players will have more jobs at max level.

[Dominaria]

Abyssea is fine for thepeople that like it, but im tired of trying to make parties and being told "no ty, i'm waiting for an abyssea invite." I haven't had a regular party in months and I never get to leech, if anything i'm ready to quit since i didn't join an mmo to play by myself.

[Greatguardian]

The only sure way to get an Abyssea leech spot is to make the party. That's all I did when I took RDM 37-90. If you need advice on what jobs to look for and monsters to hunt while in Abyssea, I'll be free to answer any questions you have. However, you can't expect people to pick up a random leech these days. Key-mastering is fulltime job when you take into account the fact that the key-master/Alliance leader will also have to keep an eye on their party at all times and, more than likely, will be finding replacements for half the people who leave.

[Ilax]

So let say the {Monk} {Key} is an idot at playing his job correctly and the other guy leveling is an idot to not be able built his own PT without a Key whore member :)

Just messing, but ya, is easy to be stereotype like this, i just saw too many ppl leech they job and fail badly, as i saw the same number of player fail without leeching any of they job, just take dynamis, i see people doing the same mistake even after 6yr long. Some learn some just never learn. I doubt it change much if they leech or not.

Take my ninja, i was NIN main for 3yr long doing Sky, CoP etc, now that make a good 3yr that job is retired. I played back the job form 75 to 90 just to have it available just in case someday i have back some interest into the job, because yes to me that job is not anymore fun to play, to not say imo is a fail job lol, but wait a min don't jump on my word till i am done explaining, 2 of my friend did level Ninja lately, and they actually finish the job in 3 day max >.> Both of them... And guess what? They are actually doing better then me on everything with that job, is like they are always been playing the job since game is out, and the job is not as fail as i was thinking.

So ya, i am hella happy to have both of them as ninja in my LS, is funny also because one of them used to be a very good/skilled BLM, and his blm isnt anymore anything amazing, once again he get outbeated by the new wave of BLM that did leech.

All this to say, you might only look the negative side of leeching, but there more then that. How many was not looking into another job just due to all the work into leveling the job. Personally i did level all job back in the time for one reason... Was not to brag about maat cap or brag about the number of job i had, but just to have an overview of what all job can offer. It helped me to lead and understand more the mechanic of the game. Its also made me understand the mistake my friend was doing with they job, and i got able to lead them, because no matter what wiki say, is not always how we are playing.

Too many take wiki for the ultimate reference, i can't tell you how many time i saw wiki wrong, like one i can remember right now is the KS99, i failed all KS99 till i find my own way, i can easy explain why too, wiki is stereotype guide line, you can see it more then ever now with abyssea, according to wiki a MNK + WHM can solo everything... Ya that might be true for some WHM and MNK, but not mean all mnk and whm, and what happen when you try apply they strategy with only the WHM? Is the solution to tell your member i am sorry go level MNK bc wiki say so? Imo that even more retarded then actual people that leech they job.

In the end all this is irrelevant, point of all the garbage i said resume to: An idiot stay an idiot, and is for sure not going to change anything how fast or easy people can reach 90, but might just give a better chance to someone to discover a hidden talent. Who know maybe i was just an idiot Ninja?

[Starcade]

For bad players they simply DON'T deserve the fast xp just like every other hard working players.

And it encourages more of them.

It really gets back to the problem that you have a bunch of FFXI players who don't deserve to be here and deserve to be with the immature little window-lickers who play WoW.

[Greatguardian]

And it encourages more of them.

It really gets back to the problem that you have a bunch of FFXI players who don't deserve to be here and deserve to be with the immature little window-lickers who play WoW.

You know it's bad when BG posters are advocating people playing however they like and Starcade is talking about players who suck too much to deserve the right to play.

mind = blown.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

So instead of Abyssea burning, we will be stuck in East Ronfaure [S] and Qufim? Or Astral Burning?

People are using Abyssea to level because the old way SUCKED. Trying to change it is just imposing your nostalgia on others. If people loved levelling the old way so much, they would.No, they did it because they were lazy and wanted instant gratification. Abyssea gave everyone access to quick leveling, not just the people who happened to know a couple of SMNs and RDMs, or the people who had the money to pay those people.
Though I agree with a cap increase, it would inevitably turn people away fromt he game since it has already made itself the staple. On the flip side, a game without midgame content is lacking. We're already a game for complainers, just live with it the best you can and ride that train. Next stop FFXIWOW.(Oh wait, that was FFXIV. lol)

[Starcade]

You know it's bad when BG posters are advocating people playing however they like and Starcade is talking about players who suck too much to deserve the right to play.

mind = blown.

I'll take your blown mind even a step further.

Many of those BG players are exactly the kind of twits I'm talking about.

All BG was ever good for, to me, was fodder to send to the Special Task Force.

[Greatguardian]

For what, exactly?

I know what I'm getting into, but I dare say this might be worth the lulz.

[Starcade]

Let's see:

Admitted bot usage
Admitted RMT (on both sides of the equation)
Illegal 3rd-party program usage on a WIDE scale

and that's just for starters.

But, again:


"Fraud is generally defined in the law as an intentional misrepresentation of material existing fact made by one person to another with knowledge of its falsity and for the purpose of inducing the other person to act, and upon which the other person relies with resulting injury or damage. Fraud may also be made by an omission or purposeful failure to state material facts, which nondisclosure makes other statements misleading."

[browolf]

if they can manage to make campaign battle attractive again that could be a reasonable stop-gap between 60ish and 75 and would support a cap on abyssea.

[Fiarlia]

I agree, to this much, to an extent. Someone who's chronically on one extreme end of the spectrum will likely stay there. However, people are not made of extremes.

I tried to clarify this in my followup post. In the context of this debate, I'm grouping anybody not on the extreme end of stupid in the "smart" category. But I still don't believe that the middle-ground people need to level the old fashioned way in order to learn their job and apply themselves. I will admit that the learning curve may be more severe for them due to this, but this is irrelevant as the argument being made is to contest that Abyssea leeching breeds morons. If you want to get into this, I will admit that middle-ground players could stand to gain something from traditional parties, but I assert it is nowhere near necessary, nor will it have a hugely negative impact upon their overall performance, especially in the long run.


This is where we diverge. The real issue up for debate that I and obviously others strongly believe (and I realize this is a subjective personal belief that neither of us can provide any evidence for) that the current situation is much more conducive to, well, the furtherance of idiots.

I'll admit it's easier for idiots to level. Yet at the same time it's easier for the smart players (again, in the context of this argument I include average and even slightly below average in the smart category, because it applies to these people just as much as the well above average players) to gain levels as well. For example, there's many derps that have a bunch of levels that were easily obtained. But now that awesome RDM you know has leveled WHM too, and possibly even a DD job if mostly mage-oriented people in your linkshell (hypothetical) are on. Maybe he's better at WHM than he was RDM, and quite possibly the only reason he leveled it was because of the ease and painlessness (subjective, I'll admit, but there are obviously people who feel/felt this way) of leveling.


You cannot seriously try and tell me that practice of leveling does not have some positive impact in the development of skill in an averagely skilled player. You just can't, it assumes people are incapable of learning.

I admitted to this above. I will concede that it can help to an extent to the average player. But you cannot tell me that not having this experience will have a permanent negative effect on the same player. An average player should, reasonably, be able to learn and adapt, through whatever means he or she chooses, regardless of the trip that got them to max level.


Furthermore, do not even dare attempt a package-deal fallacy here. Just because some gimps will always be gimps does not mean that adjustments to game balance and difficulty encouraging players to develop skill has no impact on any of them.

We must have different ideas of what constitutes a gimp. I'm not speaking of an average or even somewhat below average player who may not know the formulas and may not know that certain drops even exist (I don't expect everyone to read as much as I do). I'm talking about the people who are frustratingly bad, and either don't care that they are, make up an excuse as to why they are (such as not being able to make gil, when simple improvements could be made for less than 100k), or think that they're right, and that full teal is super awesome for nuking, or who wear STR backs on a mage job, or who fulltime dual Balance Rings and then defend their gear vehemently. The people who absolutely will not change. These are the gimps I'm referring to, and the statement stands.


Again, another bunch of fallacies. No, jobs themselves are not hard. Situations in which skill is required to play said jobs correctly can be hard. Practice improves this skill level in reasonably skilled players. Are you trying to tell me that there is nothing to be gained from practice?

Depends on the person and the job. Have any casting job that occasionally (or constantly) gets hate? You'll likely already know how to time spells between mob swings, be it for shadows, sleeps, binds, gravity, or whatever. Been a mage or a tank? You'll likely understand the value of ensuring monsters stay off the mages, though the applications of how you'd pull hate back may differ from job to job. Auto-attacking is pointless to discuss. If you're any of the higher end DD's, you'll likely understand how hate works. It's not like playing a job will only get you experience and knowledge for just that job. Many skills (player skills, not character skills) carry over, overlap or just plain become apparent by having played the game at all in any reasonably intelligent fashion. I will, however, admit that some subtleties can only be gleaned from first hand experience. In this matter, however, I will refer to an above point: any reasonably intelligent person will still be able to pick up on these nuances even after burning to cap.


Then why even play the game at that point? What would said player even be seeking to accomplish? Compare;


I got my PLD to 99, hooray!

To:


There, I finally leeched PLD to 99. Now I'll do BLM.

Doesn't sound very rewarding, does it? Why even bother making it a game? Seriously, this isn't a rhetorical question. Why play a game if you don't actually want to be challenged on some level? Guitar hero wouldn't be popular if you could win just by pushing the start button.

|
v


Sure, it doesn't remove all challange from the game, but you sure can't deny it removes a portion of it. The significance, being very relative person to person.

I've done enough jobs to cap the traditional way. The only challenge to me is getting parties together with good players and hoping to find an open camp. I enjoy endgame activities, but the old way of leveling, were it the only option for leveling, is simply unappealing to me. I find literally zero challenge in beating up birds or crabs for hour on end. I know I'm not the only one who feels this way. However, I also acknowledge that there are many who do not feel this way, and would prefer to level the old fashioned way. I have no problem with this, and I don't think anyone does. If someone wants to go level that way, have at it. I also realize that the exp gained in that fashion does not compare to Abyssea leeching exp. I'm all for buffing the exp obtained from other areas, in whatever way(s) would work. Make mobs give more exp (again)? Cool. Extend chain timers to make it easier to maintain chain and get more exp? Awesome. Drop the mob level requirement for getting chains in the first place (to Decent Challenge and above)? Sounds good to me. Buff FoV exp rewards (regardless of whether they touch Tabs/Gil)? I'm all for it. I have zero problem with people leveling the way they want to, and also have zero problem with making changes to enable these methods to being more equal. But the way I want to level is by leeching. And what irritates me is the people who campaign and bitch to take that ability away. Make it fair to everyone, that's the way it should be anyway. Obviously there's enough support to warrant a retooling of old-style exp.


Correct, Abyssea leeching is not the problem. The imbalance it creates is. Trust is totally irrelevant to my point.

I don't see it creating an imbalance. There's just as many idiots playing now as there were years ago. And it is relevant, since if there is any imbalance, nobody is making you participate with these people anyway. It's like the people who bitch about being /checked and refuse to turn on the filter... if you think it's that big of a problem.. filter it out. Getting yourself a group of trusted friends will effectively reduce any interactions with the stupids of the game to a very minimal amount. Don't join an Abyssea /shout exp group that's going for 18, go get a few friends, like maybe 5, and have yourself a single exp party. Despite the huge desire and trend to do exp alliances, I can assure you it's not needed. My group that goes on Sundays only has 3 people actively killing the mobs.

Furthermore, if you agree that Abyssea leeching is not the problem, you're agreeing that it's ultimately the idiots that are the problem. Where we differ is whether there is an imbalance created by by the idiots because of the leeching. Regardless of which one of us is right, the problem itself still lies with the idiots, not the leeching. Simply cut out the problem (the idiots) from your gaming experience and it honestly doesn't matter which one of us is right. Even if you are right, and there's suddenly more idiots than there used to be, so what? Don't play with them and the problem is solved.

[Fiarlia]

That's a matter of perspective. What you call forcing, I call game balance. The historically carefully maintained game balance is one of the largest appeals of FFXI and one of the highest valued by it's player base. The sheer number of these topics should be a clear demonstration of that.

This is not something that ruins the balance of the game. If any part of your argument, or the millions like it, are correct, it only creates an imbalance in the players. I still disagree with you on this point, but that's irrelevant to this point. I'll admit that game imbalance is an issue, but this has nothing to do with leeching. PLD is essentially worthless, nearly everything can be duo'd by a MNK and a WHM, and if you're soley after Abyssea procs you only need MNK+WHM/SCH+BLM/BRD+BLU/NIN for grellow and blue (blunt time). Need Red, throw in WAR+NIN. Then there's the whole topic of Atma/Cruor/Brews as well. This is game imbalance. Player imbalance, whether or not affected by Abyssea, has existed throughout the history of the game and is honestly not something that can be handled by SE. Leeching does not create any imbalance within the game itself.


Irrelevant to the discussion.

Incorrect. Check the topic title again. People want to abolish Abyssea leeching, or at the very least limit it to level 70-ish+. That's kinda been the basis for most of the discussion, and the initial point I raised that you contested was that nobody was trying to force anything upon us (those against the abolishment/restriction of leeching). Soo.... yeah, people want to make leeching stop, but nobody want to make traditional exp parties stop. Sounds like a one-sided deal to me, and if it did come to pass, would be forcing the people that don't want to exp the traditional way to exp the traditional way.

If you want something irrelevant, I'd like to state that it was Level Sync that initially killed traditional exp parties. Or you could make a case for ToAU and its bird camps.


So you haven't actually experienced the changes from the update, but you believe it's not enough anyway?

I'm not quite sure where I said I hadn't experienced it. Done an exp party the old way for hours as a means to actually level up? No. Did it to see how the values were changed with some friends who were curious? Yep.


Do not appeal to consequences, no one is trying to suck the fun out of the game for you. They are in favor of maintaining game balance.

Being forced to level the old way when there's a current way that I very much prefer would be sucking the fun out of the game for me. Regardless, it does not create game imbalance. Leeching did not make PLD suck. Leeching did nothing to game balance. If it created any imbalance whatsoever, it would only be with the playerbase. And frankly, I don't see it as possible. Not like FFXI is getting vast amounts of new subscribers and they're all idiots, or everybody that quits was a smart person. No, generally, the same people play the game that used to, maybe a few left, maybe a few joined. The same relative amount of idiots remains, and they'd have all made it to cap anyway. Perhaps it seems like there's more because most people don't play with them. Or because the gap between having 3 lunar abyssites and good atmas and not having them is so ridiculously huge that it seems that there's more, or that they're worse than they used to be. Or possibly because many people join larger groups, and more people usually means more idiots.




Really?

Yes, really. Since you seemed to think it meant that I thought it was a valid argument against leeching (or pro-creating imbalance, or whatever), let me clarify. It's an argument that people are making. It's also true, and valid. But, it's irrelevant towards the point they're trying to make. Here's the part that comes immediately following the line you are trying to make into a contradiction by taking out of context:


Though, I'll ask in return: what difference does that make? They'll be terrible whether they have one job at max level or all 20. They'll just have more flexibility when it comes to grouping with other terrible players. Again, so what? If it takes 18 terrible players to do what a group of smart players could do with 2-6, then hey, at least they can get some shit done for themselves.

Yes, Abyssea leeching gets idiots more jobs at cap than they'd likely have had before leeching. And again, so what? An idiot is an idiot, regardless of the amount of different jobs they have. This is what makes this particular reason for getting rid of leeching bullshit. The argument itself may be valid, which it is, but the application of it is not.

We all know that stupid players exist. Using them as a crutch or scapegoat to abolish Abyssea leeching is just bullshit.

[Ilax]

And it encourages more of them.

It really gets back to the problem that you have a bunch of FFXI players who don't deserve to be here and deserve to be with the immature little window-lickers who play WoW.

Those immature little window-lickers as you call them allow a company like SE to create content that you enjoy to play, same as those people that pick up your garbage every week in RL, allow you to not deal with it. Everyone they world, as far i know, there no obligation for you to invite them, and if you join an abyssea PT just because you too lazy to make your own, then sorry buddy but you have to deal with it.

No matter how many job 90 anyone have, i am never looking at this when we plan invite someone in my LS that is btw very successful, and while we at this, i also never invite people just because they have good gear, all this mean nothing to me.

As side note, just keep in mind that probably the main reason WoW is more popular and more successful, they don't close the door to anyone... (even the immature little window-lickers as you say)

[Fiarlia]

#1, as Yuna would say, you're a bad liar. But since you're more socially acceptable to the player-base than I am, you'll probably get away with it.

#2, I've been waiting for a post like this...

You might as well say the creators of illegal software contribute more to the game...

You might as well say RMT does as well...

You might as well even say that griefers and cockblockers do the same...

I'm not sure how creating illegal software has to do with determining and discovering new gameplay strategies, allowing people to become better at the game. Nor what it has to do with doing math and figuring out formulas for how damage in the game is being calculated. Both of these things are done without the use of third party tools, and contributes greatly to the game, especially to those willing to read up on said formulas and strategies. And quite a number of these come from BG.

[Ilax]

Think you guy Derailed badly here.

[Starcade]

Those immature little window-lickers as you call them allow a company like SE to create content that you enjoy to play,

Stop.

Stop right there.

If they are necessary for the continuance of FFXI, I've made my position repeatedly clear -- FFXI does not deserve to survive. Because, at that point, they have the right to dictate terms to the rest of the player-base and to Square-Enix.

My enjoyment of the content would be heightened significantly if the player-base had one ounce of integrity between them.


same as those people that pick up your garbage every week in RL, allow you to not deal with it. Everyone they world, as far i know, there no obligation for you to invite them, and if you join an abyssea PT just because you too lazy to make your own, then sorry buddy but you have to deal with it.


There's always the option to tell the alliance to go blow and warp out. I've even gotten to the point that, faced with the option of paying one of these window-lickers not to cockblock or getting tossed out of my alliance, I got tossed.


No matter how many job 90 anyone have, i am never looking at this when we plan invite someone in my LS that is btw very successful, and while we at this, i also never invite people just because they have good gear, all this mean nothing to me.


Then you would be a rarity in this game. Frankly spoken...

For many people, their gear is their reputation.


As side note, just keep in mind that probably the main reason WoW is more popular and more successful, they don't close the door to anyone... (even the immature little window-lickers as you say)

ESPECIALLY the immature little window-lickers. I was watching a gaming group doing a WoW marathon, and the maturity level of most of the comments and of a lot of the in-game chat approximated that of a pre-school student.

[Starcade]

I'm not sure how creating illegal software has to do with determining and discovering new gameplay strategies, allowing people to become better at the game. Nor what it has to do with doing math and figuring out formulas for how damage in the game is being calculated. Both of these things are done without the use of third party tools, and contributes greatly to the game, especially to those willing to read up on said formulas and strategies. And quite a number of these come from BG.

Let me put it this way:

I used to have in my linkshell on another server (in fact, finding out about this guy is one of the reasons I left the server!) one of the most prominent in-game tacticians/theorists on the entire game.

Of course, he was on his second character, having been banned for the Salvage bans of January 22, 2009.

Point being: I don't give a flying rip about how much strategy you form if it's clear that, by your conduct, you have no business playing FFXI.

That would be like giving Michael Vick credit for being a great athlete, even though he's a dog-killing piece of scum who has no business in organized society.

[Cream_Soda]

That would be like giving Michael Vick credit for being a great athlete, even though he's a dog-killing piece of scum who has no business in organized society.

He's a great athlete. Being a bad person doesn't mean you're not good at what you do best.

[Ilax]

@Starcade i totally disagree your stereotype personality, to even add up is shocking that you generalize that much everything like the world should just be composed of perfect people (Hi Adolf Hitler doctrine) You might think the way you play the game is perfect enough to say such of thing, but how good are you versus Avesta? Is the next step to make my game more enjoyable to also have you kicked out of the game just because imo you not good enough to play my game? Seriously i am just shocked man, and i am sure more then only me are by such of rude comment.

[Starcade]

He's a great athlete. Being a bad person doesn't mean you're not good at what you do best.

Yes it does, especially when (and this is where it becomes on topic to FFXI) it means you have no business doing what you are good at doing best.

[Starcade]

Is the next step to make my game more enjoyable to also have you kicked out of the game just because imo you not good enough to play my game? Seriously i am just shocked man, and i am sure more then only me are by such of rude comment.

I don't think you want my answer to that question.

The answer to that question is an unequivocal YES -- the next step to make your game more enjoyable is to remove people like me from it (forcibly and with the GMs if necessary), because of my non-tolerance for what probably makes your gameplay enjoyable.

The only reason I play FFXI is to spit at the cheaters and force Square-Enix, when the time finally comes, to basically either enforce their ToS against things they've said they would have no tolerance for (but continually LIED about), or basically render them irrelevant in the face of effective mob rule.

[Greatguardian]

It's been dull having you banned from any forum of repute in the FFXI community. You're so delirious it's funny.

[Starcade]

It's been dull having you banned from any forum of repute in the FFXI community. You're so delirious it's funny.

Well, let's make no secret: This is about the only place I'm allowed to post -- because I hold the player-base (pretty much rank and file) with utter contempt.

[Kagato]

*sings*

Going off the rails on a Crazy Train....

[Ilax]

I don't think you want my answer to that question.

The answer to that question is an unequivocal YES -- the next step to make your game more enjoyable is to remove people like me from it (forcibly and with the GMs if necessary), because of my non-tolerance for what probably makes your gameplay enjoyable.

The only reason I play FFXI is to spit at the cheaters and force Square-Enix, when the time finally comes, to basically either enforce their ToS against things they've said they would have no tolerance for (but continually LIED about), or basically render them irrelevant in the face of effective mob rule.

Once again you derail, i never talked about RMT, Cheater and so on, as much i can agree on those statement, i still and never going to agree that the one who not an expert at FFXI should switch the game just to make you happy.

Stop derail just to win a point that clearly you lost from base, if you wan talk about RMT just go post a new thread, i don't like the way this turning, because clearly you too much stereotype person and over it you derail it just to win your point.

[Starcade]

Once again you derail, i never talked about RMT, Cheater and so on, as much i can agree on those statement, i still and never going to agree that the one who not an expert at FFXI should switch the game just to make you happy.


The problem is there are those who even are considered experts who should run themselves off to Azeroth, as far as I am concerned -- and their conduct vis-a-vis cheating and RMT is a large reason why.

(Especially when you get to groups like BG.)

You're not going to get full separation of those concepts, especially with the belief by many that cheating, in certain forms, is necessary to their enjoyment of FFXI.


Stop derail just to win a point that clearly you lost from base, if you wan talk about RMT just go post a new thread, i don't like the way this turning, because clearly you too much stereotype person and over it you derail it just to win your point.

It's actually part of the reason that the concept of raising the Abyssean level floor is not a bad idea: You've got a bunch of people who are willing to openly screw over everyone in their path for their own advancement -- and Abyssea has added a whole new dimension to this.

It drives me up the wall to basically hear people /shout to try to be the key master (read: level-accelerator for themselves), not realizing that, in most cases, the key master is the one making the group.

It also drives me up the wall when I am in such a group to see the leader having to keep track of everyone to assure that they are actually doing the work -- in most cases, they aren't!!

[Cream_Soda]

Yes it does, especially when (and this is where it becomes on topic to FFXI) it means you have no business doing what you are good at doing best.
That makes no sense.
Even if you think he shouldn't be doing something. He's still good at it, regardless. Unless you're saying you can beat him and his team in football?

[Starcade]

That makes no sense.
Even if you think he shouldn't be doing something. He's still good at it, regardless. Unless you're saying you can beat him and his team in football?

No, you're completely missing the point.

He has no business in organized society. It's almost as if we have made him into some sort of a God who must be bowed down to (like FFXI has done to many of the Salvage-dupers, etc.) to be considered acceptable.

That's hogwash. I don't care if he eventually does get people to reinvent the position of quarterback -- the guy is utter slime and has no business on the field, and those who cheer him on are just as culpable in the mockery of even base decency that his presence there does.

Hence, it invalidates how good he is, in any sane person's eyes. Just like botting and 3PP's and duping invalidate the good work the players involved in said do.

[Fiarlia]

[everything]

Seriously man, I willing to bet that you cheat like crazy. There's no way anyone would be so outspoken against it unless they did.

[Ilax]

@Starcade

Your experience and mine is 2 different story line, trust me the member in my LS are by far not 'The best player in FFXI' but they are mature/friendly/helpful, trust me the best gear/skill mean nothing if your group is ready to make fun of you. No matter how good you are, is most of the time the synergy of your linkshell.

Quit trying put everyone in the same boat...

[Cream_Soda]

No, you're completely missing the point.

He has no business in organized society. It's almost as if we have made him into some sort of a God who must be bowed down to (like FFXI has done to many of the Salvage-dupers, etc.) to be considered acceptable.

That's hogwash. I don't care if he eventually does get people to reinvent the position of quarterback -- the guy is utter slime and has no business on the field, and those who cheer him on are just as culpable in the mockery of even base decency that his presence there does.

Hence, it invalidates how good he is, in any sane person's eyes. Just like botting and 3PP's and duping invalidate the good work the players involved in said do.
That's a horrible comparison. botting directly correlates to ffxi. Fighting dogs has absolutely nothing to do with his ability to play football.

Someone caught using steroids would make a better example than Vic, as that actually has an effect on football and the outcome of games.

[Juri_Licious]

If they did this, then how would that be fair to all the people that were able to do it before they would apply this kind of patch?

It would mean that those people had unfair access with 30+ jobs while other people in the future who didn't get a chance to go there would have to do it 70+.

[Glamdring]

I've organized a party where I brought in a 90 blm. Turned out he had levelled all 60 levels in 5 days, and his skills were at level 30ish. He did have his spells, because blm was not his 1st job and he had money. He cast a Blizzard V on Raskovnik for 154, yes 154 damage. He had claim, so I kicked him from the pt, and had the rest of the party all flux out and leave him to it. He was not invited back, and I told our rdm if he went to raise him he was not welcome back either.

Show up prepared to do your job in a reasonable manner or quit the game! THAT is why I despise low-level leeching. I don't even particularily like level sync. If a mob is a skillable mob relative to your level you should be able to skill, period.

Now, ask me how I feel about people who AFK...

[Starcade]

Seriously man, I willing to bet that you cheat like crazy. There's no way anyone would be so outspoken against it unless they did.

And, given this player-base, why would you believe otherwise?

You see, this is one of the reasons I am so outspoken about cheating: It places the conduct of every player into question -- so why wouldn't you? I'm not saying you have cause to, but why wouldn't you?

[Starcade]

I've organized a party where I brought in a 90 blm. Turned out he had levelled all 60 levels in 5 days, and his skills were at level 30ish. He did have his spells, because blm was not his 1st job and he had money. He cast a Blizzard V on Raskovnik for 154, yes 154 damage. He had claim, so I kicked him from the pt, and had the rest of the party all flux out and leave him to it. He was not invited back, and I told our rdm if he went to raise him he was not welcome back either.

Show up prepared to do your job in a reasonable manner or quit the game! THAT is why I despise low-level leeching. I don't even particularily like level sync. If a mob is a skillable mob relative to your level you should be able to skill, period.

Now, ask me how I feel about people who AFK...

Kinda reminds me of that 75 BLM I saw in a YouTube video, who had ZERO magic skill at all.

You know, I read this and agree with every word (which is why I'll ask what my role is with a party if I am unclear on it), but I do wonder how many people in the game would openly respond with: "You must have a lot of trouble actually getting parties..."

[Ilax]

@Starcade all what you saying just sound wrong, stop trying beat a dead beef.

I am skilled enough to built a 3 man party that would out beat any of your elitism party you ever made, how good are you? How good i am? answer is simple: Nor me or you care, and you can be sure none on this forum even care.

Do i join random party? Yes i do, do i like them every time? No. Do i stay in it: Depend.

Did you ever question yourself why they invited you in the party? Are you so good that they think, hey let invite this guy so we all can leech from him? No way, and if you are that a great player then why are you lfg?

Seriously man, quit this b$llsh!t because is now getting real annoying. i am also done derailing with you, because seriously all this go no where.

[Starcade]

That's a horrible comparison. botting directly correlates to ffxi. Fighting dogs has absolutely nothing to do with his ability to play football.


Yes it does, actually, when you actually understand some of his backstory.

It also has to do with his popularity too. One of the reasons I've largely sworn off the NFL.

One's conduct ties into a lot more about a person than one thinks -- that's why it's a good comparison to many players in FFXI.

[Cream_Soda]

Yes it does, actually, when you actually understand some of his backstory.

It also has to do with his popularity too. One of the reasons I've largely sworn off the NFL.

One's conduct ties into a lot more about a person than one thinks -- that's why it's a good comparison to many players in FFXI.
It's still a stretch for a comparison.

You're comparing cheating at the actual thing you're doing (botting = cheating in xi) vs what you do outside of the game. Dogs or not, he is still a good athlete. Am I a fan? no, but that doesn't make him suck because I don't care for the guy.

Chris brown is still a good singer and dancer. Him beating Rhiana has not changed that. Is he a good person? I don't think so, but he still has music and dance talent.

[Starcade]

@Starcade all what you saying just sound wrong, stop trying beat a dead beef.

I am skilled enough to built a 3 man party that would out beat any of your elitism party you ever made, how good are you? How good i am? answer is simple: Nor me or you care, and you can be sure none on this forum even care.


I strongly disagree with that last clause (about others on the forum), for reasons I'm not sure you are aware.


Do i join random party? Yes i do, do i like them every time? No. Do i stay in it: Depend.

Did you ever question yourself why they invited you in the party? Are you so good that they think, hey let invite this guy so we all can leech from him? No way, and if you are that a great player then why are you lfg?


I usually don't, except in very specific cases where the group needs to fill a slot (which answers your other question)

I spend VERY LITTLE TIME LFG, because, in most cases, I don't even trust everyone in my linkshell!


Seriously man, quit this b$llsh!t because is now getting real annoying. i am also done derailing with you, because seriously all this go no where.

Bye. *waves*

[Starcade]

Chris brown is still a good singer and dancer. Him beating Rhiana has not changed that. Is he a good person? I don't think so, but he still has music and dance talent.

By saying that, you endorse his conduct. His beating Rhianna ABSOLUTELY changed and invalidated ALL of his talent.

Just like the conduct of a lot of FFXI players forcing people to demand serious changes in how Abyssea works, because any good they might do is invalidated by, at best, lazy conduct -- if not outright illegal conduct.

[Fiarlia]

I've organized a party where I brought in a 90 blm. Turned out he had levelled all 60 levels in 5 days, and his skills were at level 30ish. He did have his spells, because blm was not his 1st job and he had money. He cast a Blizzard V on Raskovnik for 154, yes 154 damage. He had claim, so I kicked him from the pt, and had the rest of the party all flux out and leave him to it. He was not invited back, and I told our rdm if he went to raise him he was not welcome back either.

Show up prepared to do your job in a reasonable manner or quit the game! THAT is why I despise low-level leeching. I don't even particularily like level sync. If a mob is a skillable mob relative to your level you should be able to skill, period.

Now, ask me how I feel about people who AFK...

I'm aware that stuff like this is a problem, but really, if they leveled up their BLM the normal way, they likely wouldn't have been worth a spot in your party anyway with the mindset that the player in question has. Their Elemental Magic would've been skilled, yes, but someone that thinks they can actually contribute after leeching a job and not ensuring that the proper skills have been leveled are likely going to be total douches even if they had it skilled.

For example, I leeched my BLU. I've always wanted to lvl BLU, but didn't want to go through the irritation of farming spells in the state the game used to be in. (Personal preferrence, by the way, in no way am I saying that those who did it the "proper way" shouldn't have.) Now that it's at 90, I have yet to party on it (exp or NMs or events or anything else) because I haven't yet acquired all the spells. I also will not party on it until I have done so. This is fine with me though, as I do it my off time, and I build seals/+2 items to make it that much better when I have gotten the spells. Hell, I even made up spreadsheets of which spells I'll want to set (when I have them all) for various situations and NM's.

The difference between that BLM and me is that I care. We both got to 90 by leeching, obviously, it hasn't had a negative impact on me. Leeching is not the problem, it's the players.

[Cream_Soda]

By saying that, you endorse his conduct. His beating Rhianna ABSOLUTELY changed and invalidated ALL of his talent.That's what you assume. I don't endorse his conduct. I think what he did was terrible. Just because you do something terrible doesn't mean he can't sing.

There are plenty of horrible hearted people who still have skills. He is one of them.

When I speak of his talent, I'm making an unbiased judgment on that talent.

When you say "he is a bad person so his music sucks too" that is a biased judgment, which is worthless.

[Naturebeckles]

The example Glamdring gave about a level 90 blm with no skill is what I referred to earlier by the old way producing better players. Maybe I should have said overall skilled players. Look, I'm not saying they should get rid of the Abyssea way of exping. But as an LS leader, I have helped mediocre players become better players. This fake world is not much different than the real world: not everything fits neatly into a little box. Yes, some players are not teachable and they'll keep being idiots no matter what you do. Some players are naturally good at learning their jobs well. Most other people need some guidance to become good. Those are the players that can't do that by key whoring their way to 90. That I suppose is what I specifically meant by the old ways producing better players.

I'm slow at leveling jobs. Yes... once I hit 70 on that job, I hit abyssea up for the rest of my levels. I'm leveling smn right now - the first mage job I'm going to take all the way. I admit I don't know a whole heck of a lot about smn. Mine is 35. I'm purposely leveling the old way and by solo'ing exp pages so I can learn how to do my job. God knows, I don't want to be level 90 and not know what the hell I"m doing because I spent my time key whoring my levels. That's just my choice. Everyone is free to choose how they want to level. Hell, I saw a level 24 blu in a level sync duo in Qufim Island wearing his crafting body gear.

Point is, I know my limits and I try to strengthen my weaknesses as a player. I don't mind the struggle and the challenges of doing stuff the harder way. Keeps me from being bored. Veteran players who already have a bunch of jobs at 90 and don't want to spend lots of time leveling more jobs... have at it.

But level 90 noobs do piss me off along with many others. Abyssea just... seems to exenuate (sp?) the high level noobs. Seems you can't even really tell if those morons bought their accounts or not. lol

[Starcade]

That's what you assume. I don't endorse his conduct. I think what he did was terrible. Just because you do something terrible doesn't mean he can't sing.

There are plenty of horrible hearted people who still have skills. He is one of them.

When I speak of his talent, I'm making an unbiased judgment on that talent.

When you say "he is a bad person so his music sucks too" that is a biased judgment, which is worthless.

You're enabling him by basically supporting his work. He is a bad person, so the very fact he even makes music at all (and that he is even allowed to) sucks.

I mean, that gets back to the comment I made to someone else: If one believes similar to how you believe, a case could be made for the very positive contributions of RMT, griefers, botters, Windower, etc.

[Bahamut_Norm]

I will admit that the learning curve may be more severe for them due to this, but this is irrelevant as the argument being made is to contest that Abyssea leeching breeds morons.

My concern is primarily game balance, not idiots, concern addressed by the title of the thread. If something makes a given aspect of the game easier or harder in some significant way, it affects balance, would you not agree?


If you want to get into this, I will admit that middle-ground players could stand to gain something from traditional parties, but I assert it is nowhere near necessary, nor will it have a hugely negative impact upon their overall performance, especially in the long run.

In the very long term no, it does not. But it's kind of a slippery slope until you're trying to assert that levels aren't at all relevant, and difficulty of that entire half of the game is unimportant. Is it by choice? Sure. But a lot of the older player base intentionally signed up for an extremely difficult game, and this change especially seems to be creating a great deal of grief for them. (I'd play more Demon's Souls, but I like difficulty, not masochism.) From what I've learned through observation so far is that it removes a great deal of challenge on a very large scale.


I'll admit it's easier for idiots to level. Yet at the same time it's easier for the smart players to gain levels as well.

I think that may actually be why. A significant portion of the older player base appreciated the level of difficulty and discouragement that separated people like that. It's a form of elitism, sure, but it was for a hard fought battle to prove yourself capable.


Maybe he's better at WHM than he was RDM, and quite possibly the only reason he leveled it was because of the ease and painlessness of leveling.

Oh sure, easier leveling is a perfectly good reason to go out and do something you wouldn't. But the whole point I'm trying to make is that it's so extremely disproportionately easy to leech in Abyssea versus all the other methods, and that's hitting the nail on the head with my point about balance.


We must have different ideas of what constitutes a gimp. I'm not speaking of an average or even somewhat below average player who may not know the formulas and may not know that certain drops even exist (I don't expect everyone to read as much as I do). I'm talking about the people who are frustratingly bad.

A fascinating linguistic problem! Different servers appear to have different definition of the word 'gimp'. On Bahamut it tends to be thrown around over the most trivial deficiencies. (Ah BG, where would we be without your rampant elitism?)


In this matter, however, I will refer to an above point: any reasonably intelligent person will still be able to pick up on these nuances even after burning to cap.

Sure, I made a few remarks about players who didn't learn from leveling, and largely, you're right about that, eventually average players will figure it out. It's the idea that some of these people go straight from being 99 into endgame without any of the other effort into skill development or practice that bothers me and probably many others.


I find literally zero challenge in beating up birds or crabs for hour on end. I know I'm not the only one who feels this way....

The time consuming nature of the act could easily be argued as part of the challenge, and a significant part of the game to the older player base.


...I also realize that the exp gained in that fashion does not compare to Abyssea leeching exp. I'm all for buffing the exp obtained from other areas, in whatever way(s) would work....


I have zero problem with people leveling the way they want to, and also have zero problem with making changes to enable these methods to being more equal. But the way I want to level is by leeching.

Which is the point I'm trying to make about game balance...effort != reward. Leeching gives so much reward to any other form of effort or time, that either other methods need to be increased to make the ratio par, or rewards for leeching should be decreased to make it proportional to it's effort. If you like leveling by leeching, then someone who kills mobs solo should get twice as much experience as you.


Furthermore, if you agree that Abyssea leeching is not the problem, you're agreeing that it's ultimately the idiots that are the problem.

Nope. Abyssea leeching isn't the problem. The reward disparity is. Idiots are just an unpleasant side effect.

[Cream_Soda]

You're enabling him by basically supporting his work. He is a bad person, so the very fact he even makes music at all (and that he is even allowed to) sucks.

I mean, that gets back to the comment I made to someone else: If one believes similar to how you believe, a case could be made for the very positive contributions of RMT, griefers, botters, Windower, etc.
Not at all, because every one of those things you listed has a direct effect on FFXI. Chris Brown beating Rhiana has 0 affect on his musical talent.

Totally unrelated. and if by supporting, you mean downloading his music and him getting nothing, then yes, I support him very much.

[Fiarlia]

By saying that, you endorse his conduct. His beating Rhianna ABSOLUTELY changed and invalidated ALL of his talent.

Incorrect. Talent is not an opinion. Perhaps how talented is, but that's different.

Somewhat related example: I hate country music. I find it annoying and I can't stand to listen to it. This does not make all country musicians bad. In fact, despite the fact that I can't stand the genre I do recognize that some of them are quite talented and creative, and very good at what they do. I still don't like it.

Talent is objective. The guy you are talking about can't suddenly not sing anymore. His vocal chords are still there and work exactly as they did before. Now, they guy himself is a douche. And I fully understand not supporting him and refusing to buy his stuff or even listen to it because of his actions. In fact I'd say you'd be right to do so. But despite how much you hate him, and his actions, it does not take away from his ability to sing. Perhaps his ability to stay famous and keep making money, yes, if enough people boycott him or he gets too much bad PR.

If it turns out that some document that's verified to be true and legitimate gets discovered exposing Beethoven or Bach as anti-semites, does this suddenly mean that all their music is horrible and invalidate everything their music has done for the world? All the inspiration they've provided genuine, good (as in good people) artists and/or bands, everything they unintentionally helped create over history, and the people they inspired to go on and make other beautiful and touching music should all be regarded as horrible trash that doesn't deserve to be sold, or put in movies, or ringtones, or games any longer?

[Starcade]

Not at all, because every one of those things you listed has a direct effect on FFXI. Chris Brown beating Rhiana has 0 affect on his musical talent.

Totally unrelated. and if by supporting, you mean downloading his music and him getting nothing, then yes, I support him very much.

Then you're clearly enabling him, and, hence, no longer worthy of my time.

[Starcade]

Incorrect. Talent is not an opinion. Perhaps how talented is, but that's different.


I disagree with that entirely. It's kind of the matter of one person's garbage being another person's treasure.

Talent is entirely an opinion, be it music, acting, sports, FFXI, or whatever.


If it turns out that some document that's verified to be true and legitimate gets discovered exposing Beethoven or Bach as anti-semites, does this suddenly mean that all their music is horrible and invalidate everything their music has done for the world? All the inspiration they've provided genuine, good (as in good people) artists and/or bands, everything they unintentionally helped create over history, and the people they inspired to go on and make other beautiful and touching music should all be regarded as horrible trash that doesn't deserve to be sold, or put in movies, or ringtones, or games any longer?

I don't think you want my answer to that. I once read someone's Twitter account who basically called on all who read her account to support Planned Parenthood because of the government cutting funding to it.

A couple days later, she found out who was behind PP, and, hence, was forced to invalidate that stand because of the people behind it.

Yes, that degree of repulsion would invalidate it, yes.

[Cream_Soda]

Then you're clearly enabling him, and, hence, no longer worthy of my time.
Biased opinions are like biased news sources, worthless.

[Fiarlia]

I disagree with that entirely. It's kind of the matter of one person's garbage being another person's treasure.

Talent is entirely an opinion, be it music, acting, sports, FFXI, or whatever.



I don't think you want my answer to that. I once read someone's Twitter account who basically called on all who read her account to support Planned Parenthood because of the government cutting funding to it.

A couple days later, she found out who was behind PP, and, hence, was forced to invalidate that stand because of the people behind it.

Yes, that degree of repulsion would invalidate it, yes.

Is the Pope completely worthless (as a person and religious figure, not asking about personal beliefs in the slightest, and don't care to know)? Crusades and all.

[Randwolf]

Is the Pope completely worthless (as a person and religious figure, not asking about personal beliefs in the slightest, and don't care to know)? Crusades and all.
The Pope is really old but I don't think he was around for the Crusades.

[Fiarlia]

The Pope is really old but I don't think he was around for the Crusades.

And the people that Beethoven and Bach inspired would have had zero to do with their views, but it counts cuz Starcade said so!

[Starcade]

Is the Pope completely worthless (as a person and religious figure, not asking about personal beliefs in the slightest, and don't care to know)? Crusades and all.

You don't even have to go back to the Crusades on that one. Clergy sexual abuse, anyone?

[HFX7686]

Then you're clearly enabling him, and, hence, no longer worthy of my time.

Your reasoning is stupid. I am sure that Chris Brown is a talented musician and can sing quite well. I'm also sure that he's a terrible person because he beat his girlfriend and therefore I won't buy his music. Recognising his talent does not enable him, buying his music does.

The same thing goes for FF11 players. Recognising they are bad because of Abyssea is not the same thing as enabling them by inviting them to groups. If I think they're bad I'm not going to do things with them.

[Starcade]

Your reasoning is stupid. I am sure that Chris Brown is a talented musician and can sing quite well. I'm also sure that he's a terrible person because he beat his girlfriend and therefore I won't buy his music. Recognising his talent does not enable him, buying his music does.

The same thing goes for FF11 players. Recognising they are bad because of Abyssea is not the same thing as enabling them by inviting them to groups. If I think they're bad I'm not going to do things with them.

It's not simply because of Abyssea, though -- it's because some of these players have no business in FFXI in the first place.

As far as Chris Brown goes, even recognizing he has talent is more than he deserves at this point -- and that's not unlike a lot of the aforementioned people in FFXI.

[Greatguardian]

You should practice what you preach and stop playing FFXI. You clearly don't deserve to, by your own standards.

[Naturebeckles]

I can't believe you guys argued over Chris Brown and the definition of talent for so long. Arguing over semantics? Really?

[Fiarlia]

You should practice what you preach and stop playing FFXI. You clearly don't deserve to, by your own standards.

I know, right, Starcade obviously bots harder than anyone else. He's probably the guy that wrote some of the bots; that's why he's trying act all internet-tough-guy against it.

[Greatguardian]

I know, right, Starcade obviously bots harder than anyone else. He's probably the guy that wrote some of the bots; that's why he's trying act all internet-tough-guy against it.

Starcade = Wizbutt? :O

[Fiarlia]

Isn't it obvious? lol

He's so outrageously anti-botting that he obviously makes them, and his attitude and self-righteousness fits with the attitude.

[Naturebeckles]

Excellent Point. Well spoken... I meant towards HFX7686

[Starcade]

I would suggest an immediate demand for investigation of my account by the GM's and STF if you truly believe that.

But I've said it for over two years now: Why WOULDN'T one believe that any given player would attempt to compromise fair play?

That's why I get so pissed at the jackalopes and botters and slime: No player can state themselves legitimate and not have people such as these challenge it -- so I dare you to actually challenge it and attempt to have me removed from FFXI.

[Naturebeckles]

I would suggest an immediate demand for investigation of my account by the GM's and STF if you truly believe that.

But I've said it for over two years now: Why WOULDN'T one believe that any given player would attempt to compromise fair play?

That's why I get so pissed at the jackalopes and botters and slime: No player can state themselves legitimate and not have people such as these challenge it -- so I dare you to actually challenge it and attempt to have me removed from FFXI.


Maybe you should stick to talking about Chris Brown. lol

[Fiarlia]

I would suggest an immediate demand for investigation of my account by the GM's and STF if you truly believe that.

But I've said it for over two years now: Why WOULDN'T one believe that any given player would attempt to compromise fair play?

That's why I get so pissed at the jackalopes and botters and slime: No player can state themselves legitimate and not have people such as these challenge it -- so I dare you to actually challenge it and attempt to have me removed from FFXI.

If you're smart enough to make the bots that you did, then you probably have covered your tracks fairly well. Or made sure to not use them in a manner that would get you discovered. Or have some sort of excuse lined up (like all these posts, it's obvious you're trying to create your own alibi or at least evidence to the contrary).

Besides, I don't have enough evidence to initiate something like that. Your attitude, posts and actions make it fairly obvious, yet I doubt the STF would actually do an investigation based on that.

It's kinda like Arthur Leigh Allen, everyone involved pretty much knew he was the Zodiac, but there never enough information to convict him... I'm not even sure if he was ever even arrested.

[HFX7686]

It's not simply because of Abyssea, though -- it's because some of these players have no business in FFXI in the first place.

As far as Chris Brown goes, even recognizing he has talent is more than he deserves at this point -- and that's not unlike a lot of the aforementioned people in FFXI.

If their accounts are paid for then they have business to be in FF11.

I'm not sure how anyone can deserve or not deserve to play FF11. You either pay for it or you don't pay for it. Deserve doesn't really come into the picture.

[Kjara]

while a 3rd thread is unnecessary I do believe abyssea level requirement should be raised for various reasons.
first and foremost for the exp parties. People who have a job above 30 will refuse to join an exp party that isn't in abyssea, and this will cause any player who doesn't want to burn their job to get stuck in qufim island or kazham (because all the other ppl partying will be under 30 as they can't go in abyssea).
on second place, less exp parties hurt the economy. I'm on Siren and the crystals here raised to awful prices because with less exp parties, crystals are more rare (not all crafters want to go farm their clusters).
More pricey crystals means more expensive consumable items (10k for a stack of shihei), and less mid-level gear (because the crafters can't sell them anymore at a worthy price and rate, as key-whores will skip that armor to wear cruor armor when they hit 78).
So yeah, please raise the level required to access abyssea for the sake of all those who like to exp a job in a party and learn how it works, instead of trading keys to a chest for hours and hours.

[Xilk]

If you're smart enough to make the bots that you did, then you probably have covered your tracks fairly well. Or made sure to not use them in a manner that would get you discovered. Or have some sort of excuse lined up (like all these posts, it's obvious you're trying to create your own alibi or at least evidence to the contrary).

Besides, I don't have enough evidence to initiate something like that. Your attitude, posts and actions make it fairly obvious, yet I doubt the STF would actually do an investigation based on that.

It's kinda like Arthur Leigh Allen, everyone involved pretty much knew he was the Zodiac, but there never enough information to convict him... I'm not even sure if he was ever even arrested.

Wow this is a remarkably useless and low accusation. I'm impressed by the daring to say such a thing w/out expecting to be laughed into shame... then again, this is the internet.

[rog]

while a 3rd thread is unnecessary I do believe abyssea level requirement should be raised for various reasons.
first and foremost for the exp parties. People who have a job above 30 will refuse to join an exp party that isn't in abyssea, and this will cause any player who doesn't want to burn their job to get stuck in qufim island or kazham (because all the other ppl partying will be under 30 as they can't go in abyssea).
on second place, less exp parties hurt the economy. I'm on Siren and the crystals here raised to awful prices because with less exp parties, crystals are more rare (not all crafters want to go farm their clusters).
More pricey crystals means more expensive consumable items (10k for a stack of shihei), and less mid-level gear (because the crafters can't sell them anymore at a worthy price and rate, as key-whores will skip that armor to wear cruor armor when they hit 78).
So yeah, please raise the level required to access abyssea for the sake of all those who like to exp a job in a party and learn how it works, instead of trading keys to a chest for hours and hours.tl;dr: you don't like it, so you want to force everyone to play with you.

[Starcade]

Wow this is a remarkably useless and low accusation. I'm impressed by the daring to say such a thing w/out expecting to be laughed into shame... then again, this is the internet.

And to consider how many of Fiarlia's friends probably cheat like Hell (I'll leave it at a "probably"...)...

The thing is, people don't get what I've been trying to say for over two years now:

There is no legitimacy in FFXI with the present player-base. Fraud is rampant, all over the game, both on the part of the players and the part of Square-Enix.

Why wouldn't someone who badly needs people like me to STFU and GO AWAY make that kind of an accusation?

But to get back to the thread, this is one of the reasons why you have a bunch of AFK leeches who will sap up all the XP until they get caught, because they had no desire to legitimately play the game at all.

Remember: A lot of the people who got banned are many of the biggest heroes in the community -- and the illegal conduct is part of that (positive) reputation.

[Starcade]

tl;dr: you don't like it, so you want to force everyone to play with you.

No. In fact, one has to wonder if one would be a stickler (like me) that one would have to question the legality of a certain amount of this leeching.

[Greatguardian]

legality

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

[rog]

I don't think that word means what you think it means.Actually it does, but he's an idiot anyway.

[Greatguardian]

Actually it does, but he's an idiot anyway.

What law, praytell, would Abyssea leechers be breaking?

Legality is related to legitimacy, however the adjective "Legal" specifically refers to a function of Law and not equity. As funny as it is to hear him call players illegitimate, illegal is quite wrong.

[rog]

What law, praytell, would Abyssea leechers be breaking?

Legality is related to legitimacy, however the adjective "Legal" specifically refers to a function of Law and not equity. As funny as it is to hear him call players illegitimate, illegal is quite wrong.None, hence why he's an idiot.

However illegal can refer to anything that is against any set of rules. For example, an illegal move in chess. It doesn't only refer to laws passed by a government.

[Pikel]

on second place, less exp parties hurt the economy. I'm on Siren and the crystals here raised to awful prices because with less exp parties, crystals are more rare (not all crafters want to go farm their clusters).
More pricey crystals means more expensive consumable items (10k for a stack of shihei), and less mid-level gear (because the crafters can't sell them anymore at a worthy price and rate, as key-whores will skip that armor to wear cruor armor when they hit 78).

Wow we need to stop abyssea leeching to force people to farm crystals and such because prices are to high for crafters? We'll I am naturally against raising the level cap to me this would be a dumb reason to raise it. Prices have gone up on a lot of things that are effected by not having old school exp parties. Signet staves, Imperial coins and crystals are the 3 I notice are greatly effected by less old school parties. Know what I say to that? Sweet and easier way to farm gil. That's how the game works boys and girls. The mechanics change and someone steps in to farm up the items.

I think what some of you are failing to realize is the deterrent to leeching say nin from 30-90 then main tanking the next day is YOU SUCK! You have to take the time to play catchup to some sort of degree on the job before you play it. Even if you have the skills from another job you still don't know the new jobs play style and it will show. Now someone sucking in abyssea wow like that's not new but people do get sick of it quick and stop asking these retards to join them. Just my two cents

[Avina]

tl;dr: you don't like it, so you want to force everyone to play with you.

People are entitled to their opinion dude lol. Yes, this is has taken away from people who like 6-man. On the flip side, you are saying "I like my fast exp, those of you who don't, tough luck." It's the same argument that you are complaining that she is making except from the opposite point of view.

Bottom line is that some people love it, some people hate it. But really, why troll people for differing opinions (oh right, the internet). All you can really do is give your opinion on the situation, and let others give theirs.

[Greatguardian]

None, hence why he's an idiot.

However illegal can refer to anything that is against any set of rules. For example, an illegal move in chess. It doesn't only refer to laws passed by a government.

Quite true. The context in particular I was pointing out was his saying that leeching exp in Abyssea was illegal, which is absolutely hilarious. Botting may be illegal within the confines of FFXI's rules, but extending that to include bad sportsmanship or leeching exp is just trolling at its finest. I wish I had Starcade's gift for this sort of thing.

[Ilax]

Quite true. The context in particular I was pointing out was his saying that leeching exp in Abyssea was illegal, which is absolutely hilarious. Botting may be illegal within the confines of FFXI's rules, but extending that to include bad sportsmanship or leeching exp is just trolling at its finest. I wish I had Starcade's gift for this sort of thing.

Seriously yes, just wow Starcade. now is at the point where is totally absurd. If you really have something to report, seriously make a favor to everyone and create thread for the STF, if you call every unskilled player a cheater then i wish a MOD come here and remove all your post, to me is very inflammatory (I am already surprise none did it already) As far we can agree with you about cheating in the game and some frustrating action from many group, i doubt is appropriate to put everyone in the same boat.

Your action to keep this going imo is on purpose to troll everyone in your fabulation.

[rog]

People are entitled to their opinion dude lol. Yes, this is has taken away from people who like 6-man. On the flip side, you are saying "I like my fast exp, those of you who don't, tough luck." It's the same argument that you are complaining that she is making except from the opposite point of view.
No, i don't care how you play. If you want to exp outside of abyssea, then feel free to do so. it doesn't bother me one bit.

Oh, but you can't find anyone else willing to exp outside abyssea? Well that means that every other person thinks abyssea is a better place to exp at. In which case you want force every single other person to do something they don't want to, just to accommodate 1~ people? Don't you think that's just a little selfish?

[Fiarlia]

The logic that he's using is the exact same logic I'm applying when I'm saying that he must be Wizzbot.

He says that nobody (not leaving any sort of leeway for anyone... even PS2/360 users who, while it may be possible, would have one hell of a hard time being able to cheat in this game. Anyone who claims they don't cheat is, by his logic, hiding the fact that do in fact cheat.

Since he's the absolutely most outspoken anti-cheat poster in existence, anywhere... well, his logic dictates that it's obviously because he not only cheats like crazy, but he creates those cheats and distributes them.

Also, rofllegality.

[Madmax]

Only fix I'd like to see is characters being ejected from abyssea for inactivity for more than 20 minutes, like the auto-logout feature. One thing I hate more than anything is seeing a level 75+ player come into an Abyssea party and them going perma afk hoping that no one will notice. These are the people that if I have party lead get kicked after 10 minutes and I won't invite them to a party again. The true "leeches". At least a key man is busting ass and using their own cruor to do a job. Where a "leech" is someone that just stands there, does nothing, and reaps all the rewards. That is true failure.

[Cream_Soda]

Only fix I'd like to see is characters being ejected from abyssea for inactivity for more than 20 minutes,

This is a horrible idea.

I like being able to take a nap wake up and kill some more NMs when I'm sitting on 1000+ minutes.

[Orson]

People are entitled to their opinion dude lol. Yes, this is has taken away from people who like 6-man. On the flip side, you are saying "I like my fast exp, those of you who don't, tough luck." It's the same argument that you are complaining that she is making except from the opposite point of view.

Bottom line is that some people love it, some people hate it. But really, why troll people for differing opinions (oh right, the internet). All you can really do is give your opinion on the situation, and let others give theirs.

Saying "force people to exp the way I like to exp or don't let them exp at all," isn't an opinion. It's blatantly an biased demand.

[cnedra]

let everyone decide for him/her self ppl who want be my guest its just gonna be hard to be really good at it till you have skilled it. But yes atfirst i was like 30 is to low also.

[Starcade]

What law, praytell, would Abyssea leechers be breaking?


There at least used to be a "law" which allowed Square-Enix to remove any account which exploited the game in any way in which the creators did not intend. It was basically used as a catch-all to cover any future exploits that the creators didn't think of.


Legality is related to legitimacy, however the adjective "Legal" specifically refers to a function of Law and not equity. As funny as it is to hear him call players illegitimate, illegal is quite wrong.

Actually, vis-a-vis FFXI, that's two different concepts. Otherwise, you'd have seen bans for every Souleating DRK or every SCH that annihilated Absolute Virtue. The moves were legal, but they were not considered legitimate. Two different mechanisms.

[Starcade]

I don't think that word (legality) means what you think it means.

There's a reason I post this, both with respect to the players' conduct and with respect to Square-Enix' conduct:

(From uslegal.com, through The Market Ticker)

"Fraud is generally defined in the law as an intentional misrepresentation of material existing fact made by one person to another with knowledge of its falsity and for the purpose of inducing the other person to act, and upon which the other person relies with resulting injury or damage. Fraud may also be made by an omission or purposeful failure to state material facts, which nondisclosure makes other statements misleading."

If I had known, before I started, that the rank-and-file players of FFXI were so abusive and spit at the rules so much, I'd never have started this game. There is no way that I could recommend this game to anybody in the MMO market, unless and until most of the American player-base is probably eliminated, because of the griefing, abuse, illegality, and fraud which is all over FFXI.

(And, really, isn't that, to some degree, why the request which this thread started with was made? The amount of abuse which Abyssea absolutely appears to encourage by the players is one of the reasons I think the argument of raising the level requirement for Abyssea has significant merit!)

[Starcade]

I think what some of you are failing to realize is the deterrent to leeching say nin from 30-90 then main tanking the next day is YOU SUCK! You have to take the time to play catchup to some sort of degree on the job before you play it. Even if you have the skills from another job you still don't know the new jobs play style and it will show. Now someone sucking in abyssea wow like that's not new but people do get sick of it quick and stop asking these retards to join them. Just my two cents

In a game which encourages so much abuse, and doesn't really start until you hit the level cap (Protip: 3/4 of the characters on, at any given time, are at the level cap...), what deterrent does "YOU SUCK" have, in any real respect?

Answer: None.

[Starcade]

Saying "force people to exp the way I like to exp or don't let them exp at all," isn't an opinion. It's blatantly an biased demand.

I'd say "Force people to actually play the damned game." You could get to the point that Abyssea could be openly used as a manner in which RMT could get a level 90 rather quickly and then try to avoid the RMT PWNER v. 1.337 long enough to do some real damage again.

[Avina]

Saying "force people to exp the way I like to exp or don't let them exp at all," isn't an opinion. It's blatantly an biased demand.

Uh, last I checked, she didn't demand anything. She was explaining what she perceived was a problem and was posting her opinion on it. All she did was say she thinks it should be raised and she gave some reasons for saying that. You know, something that supposedly an online forum is supposed to encourage, and her reply was markedly more polite than any of the replies she got from people who seem apparently terrified to lose their precious exp.

But seriously, take some time to actually read someone's post before you try to spin it in the worst possible way.

[Starcade]

The logic that he's using is the exact same logic I'm applying when I'm saying that he must be Wizzbot.

He says that nobody (not leaving any sort of leeway for anyone... even PS2/360 users who, while it may be possible, would have one hell of a hard time being able to cheat in this game. Anyone who claims they don't cheat is, by his logic, hiding the fact that do in fact cheat.

Since he's the absolutely most outspoken anti-cheat poster in existence, anywhere... well, his logic dictates that it's obviously because he not only cheats like crazy, but he creates those cheats and distributes them.

Also, rofllegality.

The player-base makes it very difficult for me to have any such leeway. There are in fact speculations that even some JP PS2 users have a form of Windower (only speculations, to the best of my knowledge).

I think you better have some words with Square-Enix' Legal Department -- I think they'd be very interested in your claims.

But why would you? You spit at the entire concept of legality, by your own words and admission.

[Sagian]

Put a skill-floor requirement on Abyssea.

If your major skills aren't leveled - no Abyssea for you!

[rog]

Put a skill-floor requirement on Abyssea.

If your major skills aren't leveled - no Abyssea for you!
That's even dumber than raising the level requirement.

[Sagian]

That's even dumber than raising the level requirement.

Justify why it's dumb or stop trolling.

[Starcade]

That's even dumber than raising the level requirement.

No it's not. It'd be a better way to curtail the abuse.

[rog]

Justify why it's dumb or stop trolling.
Dual wield war.
drk's best weapon in abyssea is axe, because of the crit ws, which is not a weapon type they are intended to use.
No skill matters in exp parties for rdm, whm, or smn.

etc.

Not only would it prevent leeches, it'll also prevent people who have legitimate reasons for not being skilled up in their main wepaon.

[chubrocka]

I'd like to see it not entered till level 75. New area exp should take place after you've played the game and skilled up like all others before. Just my two cents.

............................................................**************************************************************************************************************************
Maybe we can get back to the posting???? I thought it said raise level for abby not where the last few pages are??? Is there anyt moderators in the forum to move posts?

[Sagian]

Dual wield war.
drk's best weapon in abyssea is axe, because of the crit ws, which is not a weapon type they are intended to use.
No skill matters in exp parties for rdm, whm, or smn.

etc.

Not only would it prevent leeches, it'll also prevent people who have legitimate reasons for not being skilled up in their main wepaon.

None of that matters as long as they keep their major skills at a certain level, which they may be encouraged to do outside of Abyssea. How do rdm, whm, and smn skills not matter?

[Meyi]

I like it being 30+.

It takes a lot of the irritation out of gaining experience and gives people more time to enjoy the game. It helps with subjobs. Some of my friends figured out jobs they took all the way up with Abyssea faster than I did when I leveled it oldschool 1~75. ^^; So abyssea does not mean a person cannot learn...

[Greatguardian]

Now Abyssea leeching is an exploit. Okay.

I'll not bother replying to your replies to me because it's fairly obvious you can't read, and completely parroted back the exact reasons I said you were wrong.

I do find it funny, however, that you believe you have the right to dictate how FFXI should be played. As I recall, that is Square Enix and Square Enix alone's prerogative. Unless you're best friends with Sundi and Tanaka and are thus conveying their will, let them speak for themselves. Since it's obvious that they haven't declared Abyssea leeching an exploit, it is thus acceptable.

When SE found out about Salvage duping, they declared it an exploit and had an emergency maint (and banned people who intentionally exploited it *instead* of telling GMs because it was hidden for so long). When SE found out about Ironclad freezing and that crap with Amhuluk, they declared it an exploit and had an emergency maint. SE knows about Abyssea leeching, and have not declared it any sort of exploit or had an emergency maint to remove it. Therefore, Abyssea Leeching is legal. Hell, it is legitimate. Call a GM on a key-leecher if you want, see how well that goes.

If this makes you feel that Square Enix is simply not enforcing their game properly and enabling bad players, it is your *Responsibility* to stop supporting that "Illegitimate" company and just quit. You're not really worth the lulz.

[Rubeus]

hmm.. people are all complaining about relative intelligence by gear choice. This is altogether confusing, because as a THF I gear as a double/triple attack thief with an emphasis on haste and dual wield+. Most mithra thieves gear purely for DEX and ATK. you can't always tell if a person is a "bad player" at first glance without understanding what they've merited and what their gear-swaps are and what they were aiming for. there is no "1 right way" to play a job.

and at the idea of raising the xp outside abyssea again? Does anyone actually realize how wasteful that actually would be? I'm not going to run from Bastok to Dunes in less than an hour from 1-12 and then dunes to qufim 12-21 and then qufim to jungles 25-32 and then altepa or garlaige and then other altepa or CN and then ... do you see how time-consuming that would be? deal with the fact that abyssea is easier.

^ totally agree with Unaisis on P15: make it DC exp chains and lengthen the time. maybe make it so you have to have signet (or equivalent) on to get that bonus. that's a fair way to do it. also, maybe make chains cap beyond 300 or whatever it is depending on area, maybe to 600. make rings not useless save for once a day. or you could even add a Title for getting an xp chain over say, 500. that way you could tell a bad player from a good one. would that make you who want "nostalgia" happy, and you who still want to abyssea and just don't care happy? the nostalgia people get what they want and the pragmatic people still get to do abyssea.

everyone's whining about "all the stupid players." has anyone stopped to think that, just perhaps, some of them aren't ignorant, just uninformed? if a brand-new player reads this thread, they're going to quit today because people are so insensitive to a source of XP they -thought- they SHOULD be monopolizing on (because of popular opinion they received on the server, etc). This means that ultimately if you said to XYZ player "hey you can skip these spells but these ones here are -really- important. blah blah (same for gear) (same for tactics of pulling/curing/etc)" THEY'D LEARN and PROBABLY be grateful. Stop demonizing the game.

[Ilax]

Maybe we can get back to the posting???? I thought it said raise level for abby not where the last few pages are??? Is there anyt moderators in the forum to move posts?

I already raised the question many time, already pointed how this was derailing, moderator must be busy somewhere else. Because i read up the 'agreement' and this if by far not respecting it by multiple clause.


the following actions are not allowed while participating in the forums

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Please MOD come clear this (Review Starcade Post and who derailed with him), so we all can go back talk to the initial topic.

[Greatguardian]

The initial topic has been talked to death anyways. Both sides say the exact same things pretty much every single post. "Don't tell others how to play the game" on one side, and "Abyssea caused 12/10/2012 and made all the new players quit" on the other. Really, no one is going to get anything more at all out of this. It was a useless thread to begin with. I don't mind if it gets locked/removed or whatnot, I'm just enjoying watching Starcade embarrass himself.

[Ilax]

I don't mind if it gets locked/removed or whatnot, I'm just enjoying watching Starcade embarrass himself.

He could have done this in his own thread, tbh.

[Rubeus]

personally, i don't see how soloing makes you any better a player than abyssea keying does. if anything, that just means you know how to deal with a DC mob (on average by average job/subjob), probably don't have an endgame SJ, probably don't know "how to party" endgame style, probably have poor gear choices for your job's strengths, and above all else, are probably more interested in saving your own hide when stuff hits the fan. and if you spent 6 months levelling "the old fashioned way", you still probably have a majority of the above problems. accept that this game is roughly 10 years old now by japanese standards, that gear has come and gone, and that new players are pigeon-holed into being what they are.

take bard for example. you're tought from 1-12 to just save yourself and dont take anything tough. then from 12-24 to sing a few songs here and there and basically cure every now-and-again. and then from 25-54 you have to organize mages. Anyone who played way back remembers that etudes hit the whole group so you'd be doing INT and ballad. then updates happened etc. anyway from 55-75 pre-TOAU ballad II came out so it was a whole different game for bards. then when TOAU happened we were expected to pull, which meant dropping our time-tried /WHM for /NIN. Dynamis had similar expectations.

as a new player, you can't learn everything in under a year, on any job, because its role changes too much with different updates, different content, and different gear additions. there will ALWAYS be something to skill up, some piece of gear you need, some quest to do, some key item you want, some NM you haven't heard of, some combination for your job you haven't thought about, some person you haven't met who will enrich your game experience and on the flipside some other person who will undoubtably enrage you. you're paying monthly for this mixed blessing, and so are the new people. teach them or shut up and don't make it worse for them.

also, if gear on the AH is such a problem for new and low-level players that they won't party outside abyssea and you WANT them to, petition SE to make NPC shop gear more useful and/or more variety for a LOT less gil. make gil easier to come by. and while you're at it, make crafting not suck as a time/money investment. you can't; you can't even come up with solutions for those problems without breaking things elsewhere in the game. don't complain about abyssea leeches and then do nothing to contribute how to make new player's game experience enjoyable. you like to call all the people who are for leeching selfish, but really, whose being selfish making a new player leave because they have no friends, no gear, no cruor, and no parties?

[Orson]

Uh, last I checked, she didn't demand anything. She was explaining what she perceived was a problem and was posting her opinion on it. All she did was say she thinks it should be raised and she gave some reasons for saying that. You know, something that supposedly an online forum is supposed to encourage, and her reply was markedly more polite than any of the replies she got from people who seem apparently terrified to lose their precious exp.

But seriously, take some time to actually read someone's post before you try to spin it in the worst possible way.

So you're saying she doesn't want to nerf a largely popular way that people like to exp now? The heart of the matter is that the OP and the poor little person you are defending want to subject everyone to their demands. They are literally grasping at straws to make it seem like faster, easier exp is bad.

Ok you want a rebuttal? Fine...

High crystal prices are a good thing because it's easy income for new players that don't have much gil. If you are a crafter that can't afford to buy crystals then there is something seriously wrong and you shouldn't be crafting. If the cost of materials goes up the end product's price goes up the crafter doesn't lose anything unless the market is over saturated.

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]

[Naturebeckles]

There at least used to be a "law" which allowed Square-Enix to remove any account which exploited the game in any way in which the creators did not intend. It was basically used as a catch-all to cover any future exploits that the creators didn't think of.




Actually, vis-a-vis FFXI, that's two different concepts. Otherwise, you'd have seen bans for every Souleating DRK or every SCH that annihilated Absolute Virtue. The moves were legal, but they were not considered legitimate. Two different mechanisms.



One of the things I hate most about some people is that some of them like to THINK they're intelligent and even SOUND like they're intelligent... but they're really not. You're one of them, Starcade.

[Naturebeckles]

personally, i don't see how soloing makes you any better a player than abyssea keying does. if anything, that just means you know how to deal with a DC mob (on average by average job/subjob), probably don't have an endgame SJ, probably don't know "how to party" endgame style, probably have poor gear choices for your job's strengths, and above all else, are probably more interested in saving your own hide when stuff hits the fan. and if you spent 6 months levelling "the old fashioned way", you still probably have a majority of the above problems. accept that this game is roughly 10 years old now by japanese standards, that gear has come and gone, and that new players are pigeon-holed into being what they are.

take bard for example. you're tought from 1-12 to just save yourself and dont take anything tough. then from 12-24 to sing a few songs here and there and basically cure every now-and-again. and then from 25-54 you have to organize mages. Anyone who played way back remembers that etudes hit the whole group so you'd be doing INT and ballad. then updates happened etc. anyway from 55-75 pre-TOAU ballad II came out so it was a whole different game for bards. then when TOAU happened we were expected to pull, which meant dropping our time-tried /WHM for /NIN. Dynamis had similar expectations.

as a new player, you can't learn everything in under a year, on any job, because its role changes too much with different updates, different content, and different gear additions. there will ALWAYS be something to skill up, some piece of gear you need, some quest to do, some key item you want, some NM you haven't heard of, some combination for your job you haven't thought about, some person you haven't met who will enrich your game experience and on the flipside some other person who will undoubtably enrage you. you're paying monthly for this mixed blessing, and so are the new people. teach them or shut up and don't make it worse for them.

also, if gear on the AH is such a problem for new and low-level players that they won't party outside abyssea and you WANT them to, petition SE to make NPC shop gear more useful and/or more variety for a LOT less gil. make gil easier to come by. and while you're at it, make crafting not suck as a time/money investment. you can't; you can't even come up with solutions for those problems without breaking things elsewhere in the game. don't complain about abyssea leeches and then do nothing to contribute how to make new player's game experience enjoyable. you like to call all the people who are for leeching selfish, but really, whose being selfish making a new player leave because they have no friends, no gear, no cruor, and no parties?

This is a very well spoken post, Rubeus. ^^

[Naturebeckles]

hmm.. people are all complaining about relative intelligence by gear choice. This is altogether confusing, because as a THF I gear as a double/triple attack thief with an emphasis on haste and dual wield+. Most mithra thieves gear purely for DEX and ATK. you can't always tell if a person is a "bad player" at first glance without understanding what they've merited and what their gear-swaps are and what they were aiming for. there is no "1 right way" to play a job.


I agree completely. I'm an Elvaan thf and a player who doesn't place nearly as much emphasis on haste as many other players do. I build my thf on mainly dex, agi, and now chr with str as a secondary emphasis just so I can dps a little harder. dex and agi are obvious, but why chr? Because Dancing Edge is still my all time favorite weapon skill (except in sky... as the sky gods seem to be weakest to Mandalic Stab) and chr helps my Dancing Edge hit harder. I regularly WS for 1300-1500 damage with SA or TA and have sometimes even hit 1700-1800. that's NOT in abyssea areas. I consider that pretty darn good for a thf who isn't a hard core DD like sam or war. I'm not saying that brag... just pointing out that it's not always smart to criticize somebody else's gear choices. Oh yeah, and I'm a DD (war & sam) who tries to balance out gear as best as possible so I DON'T have gear changing macros. Why? Because I like for my mages to actually be ABLE to cure me. Not everybody has windower's Blink Me Not!

[Rubeus]

I agree completely. I'm an Elvaan thf and a player who doesn't place nearly as much emphasis on haste as many other players do. I build my thf on mainly dex, agi, and now chr with str as a secondary emphasis just so I can dps a little harder. dex and agi are obvious, but why chr? Because Dancing Edge is still my all time favorite weapon skill (except in sky... as the sky gods seem to be weakest to Mandalic Stab) and chr helps my Dancing Edge hit harder. I regularly WS for 1300-1500 damage with SA or TA and have sometimes even hit 1700-1800. that's NOT in abyssea areas. I consider that pretty darn good for a thf who isn't a hard core DD like sam or war. I'm not saying that brag... just pointing out that it's not always smart to criticize somebody else's gear choices. Oh yeah, and I'm a DD (war & sam) who tries to balance out gear as best as possible so I DON'T have gear changing macros. Why? Because I like for my mages to actually be ABLE to cure me. Not everybody has windower's Blink Me Not!

^ this. this so hardcore. completely agree.

[Naturebeckles]

^ this. this so hardcore. completely agree.

Thanks :)

Oh yeah! And I forgot! I have a couple of eva skill + pieces to use for tanking. I LOVE tanking on my thf/nin. ;)

[Naturebeckles]

Overall, reading this long thread made me realize there are legitimate reasons for people to key whore in abyssea. It's kind of like an anology to concept of people who want to screen people and make them do parenting classes before they decide to have kids. In America at least, that's a concept that isn't going to fly, but the idea is the same: the dumb people who shouldn't have kids are like the dumb people who shouldn't be key whoring in abyssea because they need to learn their jobs. But, you can't possibly enforce something that ruins it or take the rights away from people who are perfectly able to be parents/learn their jobs well even while exping in abyssea.

The other thing I learned reading this thread? Starcade spends a lot of energy trying to convince others he's more intelligent than he really is. *giggles*

[Fiarlia]

You act like you're the only one that knows why THFs would want CHR or Evasion. >_>

Sorry, nope. While it's possible that some people may not be aware that CHR is a mod for DE, the evasion gear should be pretty obvious.

It's still fairly easy to tell who is an idiot and who isn't by /checking someone. It may be harder to discern from the avergae to above average yes, but I'm talking about the people who use starting rings at 90, or level 14 ones, or an Ether Ring on a WAR. The people who are beyond stupid and beyond help. Those are easy to pick it. Quite often you don't even need to /check them to see that they're a window licker. Reading their shouts or comments may often be enough, /sea and check their subjob, and even times just look at their name. If I meet someone named Xxxcloudxgokux, chances are, they're absolutely stupid. Or most drug referencing names, really, figuring out who is stupid isn't impossible, and certainly not even hard. Pretending otherwise is silly.

[Rubeus]

@ dubberrucky: not all magian trials and AF3 can be done in 1-2 days. I've been working for awhile on some of mine... for instance, kill adze 30 times? that's not exactly something you can get done in 2 days time. especially if you solo most of all the stuff before that.

@ greatguardian: and the entire concept of an FFXI-middle class is absolutely assinine. from what i'm gathering, you *want* it to be a kingpin system where those of us that played back at US Release and got our crafts to 100 and hoarded gil and basically set the prices for new items and have our relic 5's and survived the economy crash way back at christmas of 2005 where gil-buying was so rife they had to make a task force for it. you want -those- players to be the upper class? and the rest of us to be somewhere-in-between-but-good-enough-that-we-aren't-considered-bad-players? ... yeah... cos that's completely fair in every conceivable way. let me go quit my day job and buy 100 million gil with money i don't have and rewind time so i can use mr argus in order to have even a CHANCE at catching up to you. the last thing this game needs is an oligarchy.

or.. i could just play the game without cheating and still get top tier by myself.

^ gonna go for that last one.

if anything, abyssea has given more jobs more reasons to level and more options for what they can do afterwards. it's a good thing.

what I'm seeing most in 40 pages is people who used to be "tier 1, tournament-level professionals" get dropped down to common throng by new tactics and new gear/advancements/etc when THEY didn't invent it this time. "They" gave us colibri camps, and an economy, and a method for levelling crafts, and an AH with stuff on it, and so on. "They" didn't give us abyssea leeching and why would they because "They" get smothered into the middle class because of it. Of course they hate it.

I levelled my thief from 37 to 75 by myself, solo, the entire way, over the course of 6 months when Wings first came out, and I did it entirely through campaign. The trick is that Sneak Attack is a guaranteed hit, so even for a lvl 37 I'd do my 5 damage here, 15 damage there (before they nerfed NPCs and buffed mobs in campaign. before the northlands, before any of that.) and you could get away with it and earn yourself a good little 200 xp a fight. Which, at a time when THF wasn't getting invites at all (my flag was up for most of my campaigning experience. even with a seacom. even though I can speak Japanese.) it was the ONLY way to level. I levelled it because I wanted a way to support my goldsmithing, which needed gold ingots and beyond. THF did that for me and got it through the 70s with gold and hanging out in Oldton Movalpolos for -ever-. Am I upset that people who joined 5 days ago can get to 90 THF? No. I'm upset that I couldn't. Am I jealous of them? No. Am I upset that my goldsmithing 80+ is worthless now? Absolutely.

But I have other threads proposing how to make that change. I don't just whine about it. :)

[Naturebeckles]

You act like you're the only one that knows why THFs would want CHR or Evasion. >_>

Sorry, nope. While it's possible that some people may not be aware that CHR is a mod for DE, the evasion gear should be pretty obvious.

It's still fairly easy to tell who is an idiot and who isn't by /checking someone. It may be harder to discern from the avergae to above average yes, but I'm talking about the people who use starting rings at 90, or level 14 ones, or an Ether Ring on a WAR. The people who are beyond stupid and beyond help. Those are easy to pick it. Quite often you don't even need to /check them to see that they're a window licker. Reading their shouts or comments may often be enough, /sea and check their subjob, and even times just look at their name. If I meet someone named Xxxcloudxgokux, chances are, they're absolutely stupid. Or most drug referencing names, really, figuring out who is stupid isn't impossible, and certainly not even hard. Pretending otherwise is silly.

Well Fiarlia, considering I've yet to run into other thfs on sylph who actually DO try and build chr, I found it necessary to point it out as an actual working gear strategy for that job.

I do agree with what you're saying though with people who play war and wear an ether ring. I'm not sure ALL of those people are beyond help. I think it mainly most people don't want to devote that much energy turning a window licker to a decent player. A lot of people on Sylph are too busy standing around Port Jeuno in their AF3 +2 gear looking like they're all special.

[Rubeus]

Well Fiarlia, considering I've yet to run into other thfs on sylph who actually DO try and build chr, I found it necessary to point it out as an actual working gear strategy for that job.

I do agree with what you're saying though with people who play war and wear an ether ring. I'm not sure ALL of those people are beyond help. I think it mainly most people don't want to devote that much energy turning a window licker to a decent player. A lot of people on Sylph are too busy standing around Port Jeuno in their AF3 +2 gear looking like they're all special.

I actually left Sylph for Bismarck last March for that very reason.

[Greatguardian]

I think you misunderstand me. I appreciate the rise of FFXI's middle class. More well-geared, competent players means more people I can talk to, work with, and enjoy time with in game without tearing my hair out. The only thing I don't appreciate is the idea that "Everyone is now good at FFXI, so everyone has the right to tell the developers what to do and make pointless threads bitching about what other people do." Or, "I'm a middle-class player but FFXI is too easy, give me more challenge SE."

Do people think it makes them cool to say that? Why, because it's what certain upper class players have been saying for ages? I tell you what, it didn't make those people cool either. That said, I have no issue with rog, or Thorny, or any of the other upper class players who said FFXI was easy. But they earned the respect of the playerbase by contributing to the advancement of the community, not by going around bragging about how easy AF3 NMs that were designed to be easy are.

No one in the Dev team or the community cares specifically about my opinion, or Rog's, or Cream Soda's, Raen Ryong's, Fiarlia's, etc just because we're upper tier players. Why so many people seem to think their whims are of the utmost importance to the Devs and the community as a whole just because they're no longer low tier players is beyond me, and easily the most frustrating part of reading these forums.

Edit: For clarity, there is a huge difference between "Well, I don't like this." and "The devs need to change this or everyone will quit because I am awesome at economics and stuff"

[Fiarlia]

Well Fiarlia, considering I've yet to run into other thfs on sylph who actually DO try and build chr, I found it necessary to point it out as an actual working gear strategy for that job.

Fair enough, I certainly can't fault you for trying to halt any bashing towards you before it happens. Just keep in mind that not everyone has to have it explained. :)


I do agree with what you're saying though with people who play war and wear an ether ring. I'm not sure ALL of those people are beyond help. I think it mainly most people don't want to devote that much energy turning a window licker to a decent player. A lot of people on Sylph are too busy standing around Port Jeuno in their AF3 +2 gear looking like they're all special.

Well, we're just going to have to disagree there. I personally believe any DD job that wears an MP ring, or gears for MP (this is not counting COR/WHM, obviously... the debate on how worthless that job combo itself is for another time though), or any BLM that nukes in STR gear is beyond help. I'm talking about the kind of gear that can actually make your head hurt if you try to wrap your mind around what their reasoning could have possibly been. The kind of gear that makes your jaw drop in disbelief.

I'm not talking about simple misguided gear choices, such as stacking STR upon STR for WS's in Abyssea, when fSTR is (likely) going to be capped and you'd be better off gearing for Attack (if uncapped) or the modifiers. I understand that not everyone will know when fSTR is capped, and may not even know what it is, and that's fine. Those people are simply misguided or not knowledgeable enough, and are usually open to suggestions and will take an effort to understand and apply it to the best of their ability. In fact a good number of these types of people will outright ask people for help, especially if they have friends that know the formulas and understand the inner workings of game mechanics. Now, since these people can be slightly off or misguided, seeing an occasional "WTF" piece of gear amidst otherwise perfectly sound selections (even if not quite the absolute best for that slot) is understandable, and /checking them usually won't make you think they're stupid when they're not. These people are also incredibly unlikely to wear MP rings on a DD job, or STR on BLM, nuking in a scythe.

I'm sorry, but I firmly believe there are players of this game who really are beyond help, whom I affectionately call window lickers. And I would rather sit afk in my AF3+2 or Twilight gear than help them. The slightly misguided? Sure! I'll even run the calculations for them (most that I talk to know I have spreadsheets of formulas). I have no problem helping those who can be helped, and do so fairly often.

[Naturebeckles]

I actually left Sylph for Bismarck last March for that very reason.

I understand why. I myself though have made just enough friends on Sylph that I'll probably always be here (unless they pick Sylph to merge servers again of course). I made more friends when Fairy got merged with us last March. I have the attitude that if people don't like the way I am or how I play my game, they can go *bleep* themselves. I have no problem telling them that to their faces on the game either. I'll just keep leading Dynamis runs around people who can handle how I get worked up over the run just because I want it to be successful and can crack jokes with me and the other officers the whole run. We sometimes get some really great laughs by the end of it. ;)

[Naturebeckles]

Well, we're just going to have to disagree there. I personally believe any DD job that wears an MP ring, or gears for MP (this is not counting COR/WHM, obviously... the debate on how worthless that job combo itself is for another time though), or any BLM that nukes in STR gear is beyond help. I'm talking about the kind of gear that can actually make your head hurt if you try to wrap your mind around what their reasoning could have possibly been. The kind of gear that makes your jaw drop in disbelief.

I'm not talking about simple misguided gear choices, such as stacking STR upon STR for WS's in Abyssea, when fSTR is (likely) going to be capped and you'd be better off gearing for Attack (if uncapped) or the modifiers. I understand that not everyone will know when fSTR is capped, and may not even know what it is, and that's fine. Those people are simply misguided or not knowledgeable enough, and are usually open to suggestions and will take an effort to understand and apply it to the best of their ability. In fact a good number of these types of people will outright ask people for help, especially if they have friends that know the formulas and understand the inner workings of game mechanics. Now, since these people can be slightly off or misguided, seeing an occasional "WTF" piece of gear amidst otherwise perfectly sound selections (even if not quite the absolute best for that slot) is understandable, and /checking them usually won't make you think they're stupid when they're not. These people are also incredibly unlikely to wear MP rings on a DD job, or STR on BLM, nuking in a scythe.

I'm sorry, but I firmly believe there are players of this game who really are beyond help, whom I affectionately call window lickers. And I would rather sit afk in my AF3+2 or Twilight gear than help them. The slightly misguided? Sure! I'll even run the calculations for them (most that I talk to know I have spreadsheets of formulas). I have no problem helping those who can be helped, and do so fairly often.

I myself am guilty of checking people and thinking WTF???

But I have experiences of helping somebody who others might consider a window licker turn into a decent player and some of those players are actually some of my BEST players in Dynamis. I have also tried to help some people become better players and it was just a flat out lost cause. But yeah, I do know what kind of people you mean and I don't disagree that those people exist. I guess I'm hard headed enough to try and help some of them and then just give up when it's obvious they're a true window licker. ;)

[Rubeus]

I think you misunderstand me. I appreciate the rise of FFXI's middle class. More well-geared, competent players means more people I can talk to, work with, and enjoy time with in game without tearing my hair out. The only thing I don't appreciate is the idea that "Everyone is now good at FFXI, so everyone has the right to tell the developers what to do and make pointless threads bitching about what other people do." Or, "I'm a middle-class player but FFXI is too easy, give me more challenge SE."

Do people think it makes them cool to say that? Why, because it's what certain upper class players have been saying for ages? I tell you what, it didn't make those people cool either. That said, I have no issue with rog, or Thorny, or any of the other upper class players who said FFXI was easy. But they earned the respect of the playerbase by contributing to the advancement of the community, not by going around bragging about how easy AF3 NMs that were designed to be easy are.

No one in the Dev team or the community cares specifically about my opinion, or Rog's, or Cream Soda's, Raen Ryong's, Fiarlia's, etc just because we're upper tier players. Why so many people seem to think their whims are of the utmost importance to the Devs and the community as a whole just because they're no longer low tier players is beyond me, and easily the most frustrating part of reading these forums.

Edit: For clarity, there is a huge difference between "Well, I don't like this." and "The devs need to change this or everyone will quit because I am awesome at economics and stuff"

I wasn't going on the assumption that things NEED to be changed or anyone NEEDS to listen to anyone else; and for what it's worth, I wholeheartedly agree that the pseudo-french-revolution in ffxi is a direct result of so many low-tier players becoming middle-tier and feeling spit-upon the entire way up the ladder. Now they have an easymode (and I will concede that's what it is) but as many many people have already pointed out, skill is not a direct correlation to how you got there, and your choices are abundant.

I'm not trying to make any other point besides this: there are other opinions besides my own, your own, his/her own, and so forth. Understanding this is tantamount to understanding necessary changes, if any. You would need to know all the business repercussions to SE before you could know the repercussions to the game's economy which would still affect new players' coming in and old players' leaving rate.

In short, lots of things in FFXI take a long time to do. LOTS of things. If it isn't broken, don't fix it. Face-value judgments are the worst. Fanatical devotion to an opinion without seeing anyone elses is called ignorance. There is a lot on the table in this very tiny category of debate, and knowing it all would take time and analysis of every possible outcome. If a person can't contribute towards HOW to 1: analyze it and 2: improve it then DON'T TALK ABOUT IT.

P.S.: this isn't directed at anyone in specific; but pages 30-35 should give you an idea of how it SHOULDN'T go.

[Alhanelem]

If you want to be judgemental, that's fine
If you want to not like people who don't do things the way you think they should, that's fine.

In either of those cases, you should either
1) help that person if they can be helped
2) ignore them and be on your way, or
3) blacklist them., don't party with them, do whatever, I don't care, as long as it's not demanding a band-aid for a non-problem.

What doesn't need to be done is have changes made. Most people playing the game now are not new. In most cases, if they're leeching a job at all, they probably already have the skills for leveled from another job, or they're leveling it purely as a sub and have no intention of playing that job seriously.

[Naturebeckles]

I wasn't going on the assumption that things NEED to be changed or anyone NEEDS to listen to anyone else; and for what it's worth, I wholeheartedly agree that the pseudo-french-revolution in ffxi is a direct result of so many low-tier players becoming middle-tier and feeling spit-upon the entire way up the ladder. Now they have an easymode (and I will concede that's what it is) but as many many people have already pointed out, skill is not a direct correlation to how you got there, and your choices are abundant.

I'm not trying to make any other point besides this: there are other opinions besides my own, your own, his/her own, and so forth. Understanding this is tantamount to understanding necessary changes, if any. You would need to know all the business repercussions to SE before you could know the repercussions to the game's economy which would still affect new players' coming in and old players' leaving rate.

In short, lots of things in FFXI take a long time to do. LOTS of things. If it isn't broken, don't fix it. Face-value judgments are the worst. Fanatical devotion to an opinion without seeing anyone elses is called ignorance. There is a lot on the table in this very tiny category of debate, and knowing it all would take time and analysis of every possible outcome. If a person can't contribute towards HOW to 1: analyze it and 2: improve it then DON'T TALK ABOUT IT.

P.S.: this isn't directed at anyone in specific; but pages 30-35 should give you an idea of how it SHOULDN'T go.

I would like to add that any player who has been here long enough to remember level 75 being our highest level can attest to SE's severe lack of using feedback to improve their game in the past. The first time that opinion changed for me was when they FIXED Despoil for thf and Restraint for war (when those two ja's came out they were HORRIBLE and not even worth using).

The fact that SE even cares enough to listen now after a good 8-9 years of not giving a crap speaks volumes to me. Do I think my own little voice matters more than it did a year ago? Not really. It's harder than hell to get a hold of a GM in the game now for legitimate reasons. But at least SE is making an effort to keep its already paying customers to fix or change the game to make it the most worthwhile experience for the most people possible. Well, at least the development team is.

[HFX7686]

Uh, there is a little bit on the forum rules that talk about respecting one another. I think my point was rather that you can phrase your comments in ways that don't make you look like a complete troll. Poor little person? I like how you think game forums are some sort of hardcore cut-throat environment. Newsflash buddy: you are posting on a website devoted to a video game, getting all bent out of shape and offended because someone else shares a different opinion than you. Grow up, lol. It's a video game (although you may view it as more).

And by the way, its not your little amateur poetry night-whatever crap. Go hang out in a real bar sometime and talk to people like that, you might get some black eyes.

I think the idea of raising the level minimum past the current minimum of level 30 to be a very bad idea. I disagree with the suggestion and do not wish for it to be implemented.

I do not believe leveling slowly in a six person party outside of Abyssea will allow someone to attain more skill than someone who does level from 30 up inside of Abyssea. This is especially true for someone who has leveled several jobs already and has a good idea of how to play the game.

I do not find the slow "traditional" experience points party to be enjoyable. It is a slow, boring slog, fighting through the same monsters over and over again. I would much rather be doing quests, missions, special events, or fighting Notorious Monsters with the little time I have to play FF11.

I am glad that Abyssea allows players of level 30+ to exp in the relatively painless 'key leech' method these days and I hope to see this method continue for some time.

Was that polite enough for you?

[gigasnail]

i suffered through the first 8 pages of this goatscrew of a thread, i severely regret it.

[Orson]

Uh, there is a little bit on the forum rules that talk about respecting one another. I think my point was rather that you can phrase your comments in ways that don't make you look like a complete troll. Poor little person? I like how you think game forums are some sort of hardcore cut-throat environment. Newsflash buddy: you are posting on a website devoted to a video game, getting all bent out of shape and offended because someone else shares a different opinion than you. Grow up, lol. It's a video game (although you may view it as more).

And by the way, its not your little amateur poetry night-whatever crap. Go hang out in a real bar sometime and talk to people like that, you might get some black eyes.

Oh, wow...

Never ceases to amaze me. Respect has nothing to do with being nuturing towards people. Heck, it's not even about being nice to people. I pointed out the fact that your opinions are not so much opinions but authoritative demands. Sure you can argue semantics saying, "No no no my opinion is that Abyssea exp is bad." The problem is on the end of it you put a big AND then make the demand for everyone to abide by what you find fun and acceptable. You completely ignore that though and think I'm just being mean. You by definition are a troll you're adding nothing to the discussion and just starting pointless side arguments. Go away and stop trying to be an e-thug. If you have a real point I'll respond.

[Avina]

Oh, wow...

Never ceases to amaze me. Respect has nothing to do with being nuturing towards people. Heck, it's not even about being nice to people. I pointed out the fact that your opinions are not so much opinions but authoritative demands. Sure you can argue semantics saying, "No no no my opinion is that Abyssea exp is bad." The problem is on the end of it you put a big AND then make the demand for everyone to abide by what you find fun and acceptable. You completely ignore that though and think I'm just being mean. You by definition are a troll you're adding nothing to the discussion and just starting pointless side arguments. Go away and stop trying to be an e-thug. If you have a real point I'll respond.

I missed where you got around to thinking we were talking about my point of view. I gave my point of view back at page 20, if you want to go and read it there you can. I'm pretty sure I say there, pretty clearly that I don't think it would necessarily be best to raise the entrance cap. I explain there some of the problems that I've seen, at least on Siren, that have resulted from this, but there is clearly a large part of the game's population that doesn't want to see this entrance cap raise.

How would I fix it? I'd give buffs to perks to exping outside of Abyssea. Conquest points/Imperial Standing/Allied Notes gear rewards haven't been updated for years. Put some solid, good gear that's useful for a level 90 and maybe people will come out and exp 6-man more. Doesn't hurt the people who want to Abyssea leech and might increase the amount of people who do these activities. Not saying this would guaranteed fix it, but bonuses such as this (if they were worthwhile enough) would probably help.


Was that polite enough for you?

Works by me, lol. And I agree with you on many of the points.

[Starcade]

personally, i don't see how soloing makes you any better a player than abyssea keying does.

And it's about here that I see the post is going to go south...

Soloing means you actually have to play the job, or you aren't going to last long in any capacity...

I think that's what the OP is calling for here, as am I (but for a different reason).

[Starcade]

One of the things I hate most about some people is that some of them like to THINK they're intelligent and even SOUND like they're intelligent... but they're really not. You're one of them, Starcade.

Well, only because of the fact I don't bend over to the popular players (most of whom should be investigated -- some again...)

[Greatguardian]

I fail to see how that has any correlation with your intelligence and self-awareness (or lack thereof).

[Starcade]

Now Abyssea leeching is an exploit. Okay.


Anything is an exploit which is not what the developers intended. Such is one of the nasty side effects of the 1/22/09 Salvage bans.

Because (and I said this voluminously at the time) now you have to question not only what is legal, but whether Square-Enix is deliberately turning their back on certain players and allowing only certain players to do illegal conduct...


I'll not bother replying to your replies to me because it's fairly obvious you can't read,


I didn't know the definition of "reading" was "agreeing with me (GreatGuardian)". Common malady on the Internet.


and completely parroted back the exact reasons I said you were wrong.

I do find it funny, however, that you believe you have the right to dictate how FFXI should be played. As I recall, that is Square Enix and Square Enix alone's prerogative.

Which the players OPENLY abrogate (to the large extent) and Square-Enix turns it's back on (unless they get called on the carpet enough and embarrassed into doing something about it).


When SE found out about Salvage duping, they declared it an exploit and had an emergency maint (and banned people who intentionally exploited it *instead* of telling GMs because it was hidden for so long).


Baloney -- Square-Enix knew for 18 months.


If this makes you feel that Square Enix is simply not enforcing their game properly and enabling bad players, it is your *Responsibility* to stop supporting that "Illegitimate" company and just quit. You're not really worth the lulz.

I would, except that's what the cheaters and their supporters (and I'll be generous for this post alone to say I am not sure which you are) want.

[Starcade]

Quit lying, Ilax.

If we didn't have a player-base no one would trust, this wouldn't be necessary.

You're not going to fix the problem the OP posted about until you deal with the player-base.

Square-Enix has CONTINUALLY trusted the player-base FAR too much. There's no derail here.

[Rubeus]

And it's about here that I see the post is going to go south...

Soloing means you actually have to play the job, or you aren't going to last long in any capacity...

I think that's what the OP is calling for here, as am I (but for a different reason).


wow. Just wow. [dev1003] how do i blacklist someone on forums?

Here's the thing, honey, since you just don't seem to get it yet.
1: the world doesn't revolve around your point of view.
2: the world is not black and white.
3: the illuminati don't run the world. there is no supermafia controlling all of life and its various transactions and interactions as we know it. the aliens really won't save you. your paranoia about the CIA really is JUST paranoia.
4: saints are not superhumans with an infallible moral backbone and a divine connection to a surreal force beyond comprehensibility. the pope is not the arbiter of justice and the goodness in humanity given flesh. sinners aren't demon-chimera abominations who've done nothing good for anyone in their lives. not everyone cheats to get what they want. you are not the SE gestapo who decide what cheating is and is not.

and for the moneyshot:
5: soloing does not in any capacity have anything to do with how you play endgame. neither does abyssea. neither one will make you more or less gil. neither one can be said to produce more quality without adequate testing and confirmation. you are not a superscientist. moreover, i can solo anything you name, even whm or brd, to 90 off of FoV 10 levels behind me and going very, very slowly. I am NOT going to play this if a little person is over my shoulder the ENTIRE time making sure YOUR idea of "fair play" is enforced the ENTIRE way through MY game career.

YOU need to get over your god complex before someone in "that HD thing outside the window with all the bad people my cultist mother told me to watch out for" slaps the dumb out of you. :)

have a nice... i can't even BRING myself to call it a life.

[Cream_Soda]

Anything is an exploit which is not what the developers intended.

How long have you been playing? Did you ever tnak on ninja? You were exploiting if so! It was not initially designed to be a tank! Unless you didn't start playing the game and never had a nin tank in any of your pts until after SE gave in to the player base to make nin a tank.

[Starcade]

wow. Just wow. [dev1003] how do i blacklist someone on forums?


Click my name, it'll pull up my profile.

There should be a link to the left as to adding to the ignore list.


Here's the thing, honey, since you just don't seem to get it yet.
1: the world doesn't revolve around your point of view.
2: the world is not black and white.


The problem is when the "grey" basically compromises the entire experience except for an elite few.

This was one of the reasons that VanaFest 2010 actually gave me hope for the future of this enterprise.

There is far too much "grey" in FFXI -- one of the reasons I never touched FFXIV (and WILL NOT) is because of how much grey area is in this game.


3: the illuminati don't run the world. there is no supermafia controlling all of life and its various transactions and interactions as we know it. the aliens really won't save you. your paranoia about the CIA really is JUST paranoia.


Someone's been reading some of my other writings.


4: saints are not superhumans with an infallible moral backbone and a divine connection to a surreal force beyond comprehensibility. the pope is not the arbiter of justice and the goodness in humanity given flesh. sinners aren't demon-chimera abominations who've done nothing good for anyone in their lives. not everyone cheats to get what they want. you are not the SE gestapo who decide what cheating is and is not.


No, but when those who ARE the Square-Enix gestapo ignore their own words and their own edicts, someone has to call them on the carpet.

You see, you don't get that -- you just want this massively multiplayer sandbox to go run over with a steamroller.

I can't and won't operate in that atmosphere. If I thought the way you did, people would get hurt badly. (One more for Alia or the like to put under "criminal behavior" or somesuch.)

If respect for this player-base is required to play FFXI, then Square-Enix has one option -- to expel me from said player-base.


and for the moneyshot:
5: soloing does not in any capacity have anything to do with how you play endgame. neither does abyssea. neither one will make you more or less gil. neither one can be said to produce more quality without adequate testing and confirmation. you are not a superscientist. moreover, i can solo anything you name, even whm or brd, to 90 off of FoV 10 levels behind me and going very, very slowly. I am NOT going to play this if a little person is over my shoulder the ENTIRE time making sure YOUR idea of "fair play" is enforced the ENTIRE way through MY game career.


Then you have to have your presence on this game questioned. You don't want ANYONE'S idea of "fair play", including Square-Enix'.

The players need to have to look over their shoulder vis-a-vis "fair play", else you get like what FFXI has been the last four years or so, and that's a game who's population has been stagnating and/or dropping because illegitimate and illegal play has been propping it up.


YOU need to get over your god complex before someone in "that HD thing outside the window with all the bad people my cultist mother told me to watch out for" slaps the dumb out of you. :)


That a threat or an offer?


have a nice... i can't even BRING myself to call it a life.

I can't live what you call a "life".

[Rubeus]

sweet silence of blist.
i'm half tempted to just ask anyway though... is it lonely up there on your pedestal?

i should thank you though, honestly. you know, if not for you, i'd still be defending that any player whose willing can be taught. now i changed my mind. bravo on you for that epiphany. i'm going to go shower with a brillopad now until i forget this illogical travesty tainting my brain.
good night all

[Greatguardian]

@Starcade

Here's the thing:

Who are you to dictate what the developers did and did not intend? I'm going to narrow the parameters for this query to Abyssea leeching. Prove to me that FFXI's Development or Community Teams have shown in some fashion, beyond reasonable doubt, that they do not approve of or did not intend to allow Abyssea leeching.

You are the one who broached leeching as an exploit. In order to be an exploit and not an innovation, it must be something which actively subverts game mechanics in an unwanted (unwanted by FFXI Dev, NOT by you) manner.

As for your query, I don't need to "cheat" to be a better player than you. Though I'm sure you'd devise some reason to call me a cheater having completed two Empyreans in a week's time. Obviously anyone who plays the game well cheats in some fashion or another, etc etc etc.

[Vinc]

Just ignore Starcade, stop asking for his responses...christ, this is why we can't have nice things. Eventually he will grow tired of trolling and move on.

[Starcade]

@Starcade

Here's the thing:

Who are you to dictate what the developers did and did not intend? I'm going to narrow the parameters for this query to Abyssea leeching. Prove to me that FFXI's Development or Community Teams have shown in some fashion, beyond reasonable doubt, that they do not approve of or did not intend to allow Abyssea leeching.


Questions like this -- actions like the Fortification nerf in Campaign a while back. They want players participating, not usurping the system for their own ends.


You are the one who broached leeching as an exploit. In order to be an exploit and not an innovation, it must be something which actively subverts game mechanics in an unwanted (unwanted by FFXI Dev, NOT by you) manner.


And I can come up with a way that it would -- see above.


As for your query, I don't need to "cheat" to be a better player than you. Though I'm sure you'd devise some reason to call me a cheater having completed two Empyreans in a week's time. Obviously anyone who plays the game well cheats in some fashion or another, etc etc etc.

I don't have to "devise some reason". You want the status quo retained, and there's a reason for that.

[Starcade]

Just ignore Starcade, stop asking for his responses...christ, this is why we can't have nice things. Eventually he will grow tired of trolling and move on.

You don't deserve nice things if that's the attitude you want to have -- because that tells me far more than I think you want to tell me.

[Fiarlia]

Just ignore Starcade, stop asking for his responses...christ, this is why we can't have nice things. Eventually he will grow tired of trolling and move on.

No, actually, he keeps going until he gets banned from the forum. See: any other FFXI forum.

I just desperately hope that when it happens again here, the ban will carry over to the game. This guy a self-righteous, self-important holier than thou asshat of the highest calibur. He refuses to ever acknowledge any viewpoints differing from his own and constantly throw around insults and slander. He also completely ignores any valid point against his argument (read; pretty much everything anyone else ever says, anywhere at any time).

The only way we will ever be free of this idiocy is waiting and biding time until he gets banned (again). Either that or everyone puts him on their ignore list, which isn't likely to happen.

[Cream_Soda]

Questions like this -- actions like the Fortification nerf in Campaign a while back. They want players participating, not usurping the system for their own ends.



And I can come up with a way that it would -- see above.



I don't have to "devise some reason". You want the status quo retained, and there's a reason for that.
Your assumption

[Greatguardian]

Just ignore Starcade, stop asking for his responses...christ, this is why we can't have nice things. Eventually he will grow tired of trolling and move on.

Starcade's been playing the same act for something like 5 years or more now. He's not going to stop any time soon. The only reason he doesn't have more publicity is he's been long banned from pretty much every FFXI community forum. If no one gives him places to spout his crap, he'll make a new thread to spout more crap. I figure it's better to have him in a worthless, long-finished thread like this than making new threads and giving even more people headaches.

Hell, he thinks I care about the status quo, that's funny. Read my discourse with Rubeus, I feel I make it fairly clear that I appreciate the change in the status quo; I simply dislike people who think it's their right to forcefully impose their standards for playing an open-world online game on other people.

Edit: For clarity, there is a difference between telling a WAR that TP'ing in full Heca is stupid and petitioning SE to have full AF Wars Banned. Key difference.

[Starcade]

No, actually, he keeps going until he gets banned from the forum. See: any other FFXI forum.

I just desperately hope that when it happens again here, the ban will carry over to the game.


That's what's going to have to happen -- because, when it does, it will show that Square-Enix is so desperate to make a buck that they couldn't give two whits about the equity or legality of play. I've heard it once -- I've heard it 100 times: "All they care about is your $12.95/mo."

I only play FFXI to say that it had better be more than that on their end -- else, why bother? The players (who, as a whole, I have zero respect for) will just steamroll any mechanism that Square-Enix attempts to better the game with.

They steamrolled Abyssea -- they're going to steamroll new-Dynamis -- they're going to make it such that the only players getting enjoyment from the game either have long-standing friendships or a mastery of griefing and a desire to deny progress to everyone who doesn't kiss their royal behind.


This guy a self-righteous, self-important holier than thou asshat of the highest calibur. He refuses to ever acknowledge any viewpoints differing from his own and constantly throw around insults and slander. He also completely ignores any valid point against his argument (read; pretty much everything anyone else ever says, anywhere at any time).


You mean anything which requires me to kiss royal behinds. I'm not good at that, in case you last checked.


The only way we will ever be free of this idiocy is waiting and biding time until he gets banned (again). Either that or everyone puts him on their ignore list, which isn't likely to happen.

That's what's going to have to go down, both here and in-game.

But let me make it very simple for you:

There are so many cheaters out there that I trust NO ONE.

[Alhanelem]

I think you have all forgotten what the topic is about.

[Starcade]

Starcade's been playing the same act for something like 5 years or more now. He's not going to stop any time soon. The only reason he doesn't have more publicity is he's been long banned from pretty much every FFXI community forum.


Considering I have zero respect for the FFXI community (and it's enablement and inclusion of cheaters), that's no real surprise.


If no one gives him places to spout his crap, he'll make a new thread to spout more crap. I figure it's better to have him in a worthless, long-finished thread like this than making new threads and giving even more people headaches.


Basically, my very presence breathing gives people headaches. Found that out a long time ago.


Hell, he thinks I care about the status quo, that's funny. Read my discourse with Rubeus, I feel I make it fairly clear that I appreciate the change in the status quo; I simply dislike people who think it's their right to forcefully impose their standards for playing an open-world online game on other people.


You're a bad liar. The only reason there is any order in such an open-world game is such imposition. You just want to be the imposer, rather than the imposed.

[Greatguardian]

I think you have all forgotten what the topic is about.

The topic sucked, and was talked to death over the first 25 pages. If you can find something that wasn't actually mentioned or talked about a dozen times already to legitimately discuss, feel free to bring it up.

[Greatguardian]

You're a bad liar. The only reason there is any order in such an open-world game is such imposition. You just want to be the imposer, rather than the imposed.

Oh I see. If I'm not [insert what Starcade thinks I'm doing] then I'm lying about ['']. Guess there goes just about anything anyone could ever say in a discourse with you. Wow you're smart, you've got this all figured out.

[Starcade]

The topic sucked, and was talked to death over the first 25 pages. If you can find something that wasn't actually mentioned or talked about a dozen times already to legitimately discuss, feel free to bring it up.

Then the thread should've been locked twenty pages ago.

The fact is simple: Questions like the OP's would not be necessary in a playerbase which respects legal play, which this one DOES NOT.

[Rubeus]

No, actually, he keeps going until he gets banned from the forum. See: any other FFXI forum.

I just desperately hope that when it happens again here, the ban will carry over to the game. This guy a self-righteous, self-important holier than thou asshat of the highest calibur. He refuses to ever acknowledge any viewpoints differing from his own and constantly throw around insults and slander. He also completely ignores any valid point against his argument (read; pretty much everything anyone else ever says, anywhere at any time).

The only way we will ever be free of this idiocy is waiting and biding time until he gets banned (again). Either that or everyone puts him on their ignore list, which isn't likely to happen.

to that last part? ohhhh... you'd be surprised. /trendsetting

[Rubeus]

I think you have all forgotten what the topic is about.

there's like, 5 of these exact same subject-ed threads. they're just worded cleverly. i dislike repeating myself, so i'm only making my point on this one. this one has thoroughly taken the "don't change it" approach though, from the majority anyway. should we go move our banter into ANOTHER thread or just stay in this one?

I know what I would prefer if I were in your shoes.

[Alhanelem]

well then you should all just stop posting in them then or hope for the staff to get to locking :p

[Rubeus]

Starcade's been playing the same act for something like 5 years or more now. He's not going to stop any time soon. The only reason he doesn't have more publicity is he's been long banned from pretty much every FFXI community forum. If no one gives him places to spout his crap, he'll make a new thread to spout more crap. I figure it's better to have him in a worthless, long-finished thread like this than making new threads and giving even more people headaches.

Hell, he thinks I care about the status quo, that's funny. Read my discourse with Rubeus, I feel I make it fairly clear that I appreciate the change in the status quo; I simply dislike people who think it's their right to forcefully impose their standards for playing an open-world online game on other people.

Edit: For clarity, there is a difference between telling a WAR that TP'ing in full Heca is stupid and petitioning SE to have full AF Wars Banned. Key difference.

^ I agree with GG. SE made these forums for us to provide feedback and say what we would like for the game. Feedback, at least on a business and scientific level, isn't "I LIKE THIS COS I DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!1!!@" feedback is "this is what I think, and why, and why it makes sense to me." someone else disagrees they say "well I disagree. I think this, and this is why I think that way, and I can understand why you'd think your way, but did you stop to consider ___" to which person 1 will either retort with 'yes, it was an unspoken' or 'no, but in regards to that my plan would be ___, or 'no, I am wrong, apologies.' that isn't happening with star. you can't even try; its been done. I don't even need to feign proof of that, it's 20 pages knee-deep in itself like a 4th of july with full band celebration just begging "LOOK AT ME FOR PROOF!"

-endoftransmission-

[Rubeus]

Just ignore Starcade, stop asking for his responses...christ, this is why we can't have nice things. Eventually he will grow tired of trolling and move on.

this made my face happy.

[Topdogg]

think its time this thread gets closed.

[Rubeus]

think its time this thread gets closed.

merging it with the other "Make abyssea 75+" would be so much more entertaining.

[mystery]

I find that people that do nothing but abyssea burn are not nearly the players that a person that learned their job the old fashioned way knows theirs. You must not have partied with one of these ppl that have lvl 30 skills on a lvl 90 job

[Rubeus]

is anyone here familiar with the term "falling on deaf ears"? I feel that, since nobody is willing and able to listen to another person's views without getting all "ZOMG NO WAI UR DOIN IT RONG", this isn't getting anywhere. this started innocently enough but i think page... 25. is where stuff started getting personal and then someone *cough* made a lil soapbox for themselves while the rest of the choir *read: everyone except that someone* sang "papa don't preach."
^^

[Alhanelem]

For me, the thread is only 23 pages.

You can change the number of threads per page.

[Rubeus]

I show 10 responses per page/thread, so I suppose a more conventional method would be to say, what, post #200~250~300? somewhere in that ballpark it became silly.

[Naturebeckles]

Considering I have zero respect for the FFXI community (and it's enablement and inclusion of cheaters), that's no real surprise.


Then what are you doing on here? Do us all a favor and shut the f*** up and GO AWAY TROLL! *rolls eyes*

[Crazze]

I wasn't going to read through 11 pages of pointless bickering to see if anyone mentioned this but is so I apologize. Leeches suck this I would think would be agreed upon on both sides of the argument. But I did level my Warrior from level 40 to 90 in abyssea. I took a break @ 62 and skilled up all possible weapons that weren't already skilled from other jobs.

When I did this though I in no way would consider myself a leech. I bought forbidden keys and opened boxes which as we all know if a vital role in an abyssea exp group. Having a low level job doing this or a high level job doing it makes no difference, and I am sorry but if I am high enough to fight that's what I am going to do, I am not going to waste my cruor to open boxes when killing things is a more efficient job for me.

So my stance is bring your low level jobs into abyssea but if you are going to do so make yourself useful, bring keys otherwise if it was my party you would be getting kicked after a brief warning or two.

To the two sides bickering over this just stop unless you have anything useful to say. If you don't then just go troll BG.

[cnedra]

i know him well enough to know he will not stop and he will not go. im not gonna debate against him hes 1 off the poeple who thinks besieged is not ment for skillups

[Randwolf]

Considering I have zero respect for the FFXI community (and it's enablement and inclusion of cheaters), that's no real surprise.


Then what are you doing on here? Do us all a favor and shut the f*** up and GO AWAY TROLL! *rolls eyes*

My thought exactly. Talk about an egotistical attitude: "I have no respect for you but you better pay attention to my opinions."

p.s. - Starcade, have you thought about sharing a flat with Charlie Sheen?

[Fiarlia]

p.s. - Starcade, have you thought about sharing a flat with Charlie Sheen?

XD

Best post in the entire thread.

[Luvbunny]

I understand the concerns on xp leechers, but it is a bit of a double edge sword. Once you taste the dominion xp party, it is really really hard to do xp party the normal pre-abby ways. It is just not very time efficient or rewarding at all. Granted SE is trying to fix this with the last update, but it could be a whole lot more. The game is no longer focusing on lvlng from 1-75 but more on getting you to 90 the fastest way possible so you can participate on gears hunting activities on abby (or any other endgame content from the pre-abby). If you think you learn a lot about your job on exp party, you are delusional. Normal xp party or abby alliance party does not teach you much about how to deal with NM battle. The best way to learn about your job is by doing a lot of these endgame battle since you really do have to know what to do, which vary from NMs to NMs. Often in normal xp party set up, you pretty much do the same 2-3 things over and over, and in the case of melees, 1 thing over and over.

[Starcade]

My thought exactly. Talk about an egotistical attitude: "I have no respect for you but you better pay attention to my opinions."

p.s. - Starcade, have you thought about sharing a flat with Charlie Sheen?

No. I think that would be more your speed.

And, BTW, thank you for proving WHY I don't respect the player-base.

[Randwolf]

Deleted my own post. Not worth the time debating someone without a grip on reality.

[Starcade]

Deleted my own post. Not worth the time debating someone without a grip on reality.

Why don't you just admit it and say "Not worth the time debating someone who won't kiss my royal behind."?

[Starcade]

i know him well enough to know he will not stop and he will not go. im not gonna debate against him hes 1 off the poeple who thinks besieged is not ment for skillups

No, it's not.

It's something Square-Enix needs to address as another abuse the players have inflicted upon the game.

[valdus]

OK just felt i should give another aspect on this. leeching is gonna happen regardless if it's abbysea, smnburning, or just pty leeching. the problem with abbysea is that it has made it so easy that it's gotten crazy. now regardless of how you lvl you're gonna learn how to play the job- be it in ptys or spending time skilling up (which you're gonna have to do if you leech 30+ lvls). granted a leeched player will never be quite as good at the job but they will understand enough to not bring a pty/alliance down. the real problem that this has done to the game is the lack of gear selection available on the auction house for lower lvls. with the amount of leeching ppl don't craft lower lvl gear and a vast majority of the top gear is crafted. now someone tell me how a new player is gonna have 90+ skill lvl in any craft at lvl 30? if the lvl limit was increased then ppl would have to lvl there jobs the old fashioned way- thereby increasing the amount of low lvl gear needed and available. i admit that i like to lvl the old fashioned way and so do many other ppl- it's not fair to that part of the population that our choice to not leech is halted simply because of the unavailability of gear.

also just to point this out- abbysea was intended to be an end-game thing. and since all other end-game things require you to be rank 6 and/or lvl 65+, wouldn't it make sense to put those same restrictions on abbysea?

[odomspa]

people hit 30 think it's abysessa time, they do not want to xp in regular party anymore 70 is a good level to start abyssea

[Icestein]

This whole thread is based on a false dichotomy. Do people really think that if leeching stops that there will suddenly be hundreds of people LFP from the levels of 30-70? There will not.

[Randwolf]

Why don't you just admit it and say "Not worth the time debating someone who won't kiss my royal behind."?

What is the sound of one hand clapping?

[Naturebeckles]

No. I think that would be more your speed.

And, BTW, thank you for proving WHY I don't respect the player-base.


And thank you for continuing to prove why everybody should blacklist your sorry *ahem* butt on this forum. I'll be doing it right now so I don't have to be annoyed by your stupidity-hidden-behind-big-words-self while I"m engaged in REAL conversation.

[Kuwabaraone]

YO! First post! Nice! But I digress: The problem with raising the cap is determining which cap to use. Some would say that 75 is too low for the Abyss, and would consider that leeching. USEFUL, but leeching nonetheless. However, I myself have leeched before and attempted to fight alongside those of higher level (Pride, and all). And let's be honest here, ever since the Heroes addon, there is no place of equal standing in regards to EXP other than inside the Abyss. I'm a fan of Old School, but when you can get from 60-90 with 20 merits in 8 hours easy you stop going anywhere else (This is including taking a 2 hour break just to rest one's eyes). This is excluding quests/missions/key items that enhance your performance in the Abyss; just straight on grinds...if you can call them that. SquareEnix is doing their best to balance this, but even they are seeing the potential the Abyss has to offer in Endgame content (Multi-FoVs without multiple Tab/Gil won't be enough; you're gonna have to add them in). Though Skillups will not go out of style for a long time, and they can only be done outside the Abyss in a noticable way.

KB1

[Randwolf]

Though Skillups will not go out of style for a long time, and they can only be done outside the Abyss in a noticable way.

KB1
Actually, it depends on your skill. I kept my skills near cap, as best as I could, as the level cap went up. I found that the quickest way to level them was to do it in Abyssea. Even with my guard skill only at 210, I have not found a better way to work on it than to go into Abyssea and let Mandies pound on me. I'm also getting Parry skill-ups more commonly in Abyssea. Part of that is you can take bigger risks with the Atma.

[Starcade]

And thank you for continuing to prove why everybody should blacklist your sorry *ahem* butt on this forum. I'll be doing it right now so I don't have to be annoyed by your stupidity-hidden-behind-big-words-self while I"m engaged in REAL conversation.

"Real conversation", of course, being defined as "that which I agree with".

Kiss my entire rotund behind on the way out.

[Naturebeckles]

Starcade
Player
This message is hidden because Starcade is on your ignore list.

Oh how peaceful! I like friendly debate when it's ACTUALLY intelligent.

[NightDagger]

I have now read all 3 of these threads & i am noticing a very repetitive trend. People do not like the "old way". But that is just saying alot of the players prefer to play WoW & just can't admit it. The "Old Way" was awesome and every time you gained a level you felt some achievement. Now you feel nothing cause you level every 10 minutes. I must say that if the "old way" was so bad why did SE have all servers full and continuously making new ones? It seems that as the games gets older SE makes it easier to XP & more people leave. If I wanted to start this game from scratch i would be level 90 in just over a week. That is sad! It took me just under a year to get my first job to 75 (started with PS2 release) & that was only because I was a WHM. So everyone take a second and think about this:

A person would like to get the sense of satisfaction of actually having to spend dedicated time to get a high level job & all you can do is bash the idea cause you would prefer to have 2 lvl 90 jobs just to tell your friends???? This kind of defeats the purpose of this game. SE has stated that this game is for the "Hardcore" gamer & FFXIV is for the more casual player. WELL with leveling this fast it is easier to lvl in FFXI then FFXIV O.O.

Makes no sense I I agree I would love to see the XP get back on track and make people work for their level's. If you have a problem actually having to earn you job then go play WoW cause you will fit in great.

NightDagger
Server - Lakshmi

[chrism]

I have now read all 3 of these threads & i am noticing a very repetitive trend. People do not like the "old way". But that is just saying alot of the players prefer to play WoW & just can't admit it. The "Old Way" was awesome and every time you gained a level you felt some achievement. Now you feel nothing cause you level every 10 minutes. I must say that if the "old way" was so bad why did SE have all servers full and continuously making new ones? It seems that as the games gets older SE makes it easier to XP & more people leave. If I wanted to start this game from scratch i would be level 90 in just over a week. That is sad! It took me just under a year to get my first job to 75 (started with PS2 release) & that was only because I was a WHM. So everyone take a second and think about this:

A person would like to get the sense of satisfaction of actually having to spend dedicated time to get a high level job & all you can do is bash the idea cause you would prefer to have 2 lvl 90 jobs just to tell your friends???? This kind of defeats the purpose of this game. SE has stated that this game is for the "Hardcore" gamer & FFXIV is for the more casual player. WELL with leveling this fast it is easier to lvl in FFXI then FFXIV O.O.

Makes no sense I I agree I would love to see the XP get back on track and make people work for their level's. If you have a problem actually having to earn you job then go play WoW cause you will fit in great.

NightDagger
Lakshmi




I agree with Lakshmi, I play FF11 because it was supposed to be different than other MMOS and I felt so much accomplishment when I got my samurai to Lv.75 the old fashioned way and just 2 weeks later Visions of abyssea comes out and next thing you know Lv.30s are going straight to 80 in about 7-8hrs of abyssea XP.... So I just played all that time of FF11 not only leveling and farming the old fashioned way to make money and level But just to get out leveled by a someone who started just a week ago... I agree with this Thread I say increase the cap on Abyssea to something reasonable like 65+ Because players at that minimum level cap are actually useful , Plus another thing I don't get is square-enix even says on their product, " Meant to pose a challenge to players 75+ " if thats the case ( and this is for square-enix)why even make the minimum cap on abyssea lv.30? Just so they can leech xp and get to 90 in 1 night... kind of defeats the purpose of actually investing time in FF11.


<3 FF11 - 80SAM - 62RDM

[viion]

Its extremely difficult to level the old way now, coming from a returning player whos starting up again. I hardly see anyone in the low areas doing pt's, FOV takes forever. Luckily a old friend on Lakshmi gave me his acc info so I can PL myself which means i can setup my own PT's without problem, but even that is difficult.

From what I understand leeching isnt so bad if you're not AFKing, if you do stuff its fine, so ruining for people who are 30 but are useful is a bit harsh imo. There is much better ways around it.

But in the end are those people who leeching 30+ really bothering your gameplay that much? Does it prevent you from doing something? Or is it all just jealousy. If your the leader kick them, if you're not the leader complain in the PT and get them kicked, it can all be resolved by the player.

[Dubberrucky]

I have now read all 3 of these threads & i am noticing a very repetitive trend. People do not like the "old way". But that is just saying alot of the players prefer to play WoW & just can't admit it. The "Old Way" was awesome and every time you gained a level you felt some achievement. Now you feel nothing cause you level every 10 minutes. I must say that if the "old way" was so bad why did SE have all servers full and continuously making new ones? It seems that as the games gets older SE makes it easier to XP & more people leave. If I wanted to start this game from scratch i would be level 90 in just over a week. That is sad! It took me just under a year to get my first job to 75 (started with PS2 release) & that was only because I was a WHM. So everyone take a second and think about this:

A person would like to get the sense of satisfaction of actually having to spend dedicated time to get a high level job & all you can do is bash the idea cause you would prefer to have 2 lvl 90 jobs just to tell your friends???? This kind of defeats the purpose of this game. SE has stated that this game is for the "Hardcore" gamer & FFXIV is for the more casual player. WELL with leveling this fast it is easier to lvl in FFXI then FFXIV O.O.

Makes no sense I I agree I would love to see the XP get back on track and make people work for their level's. If you have a problem actually having to earn you job then go play WoW cause you will fit in great.

NightDagger
Lakshmi

I agree with you. It seems a bit redundant that so many of the mmos out there are designed for easy play, now we have lost the challenge in this one as well. SE seems to be abandoning their niche trying to compete with other games with things like a level 30 being able to leech off of higher leveled players. Hopefully some bright executive at another game company will see the open market to make a good challenging mmo again if SE continues down this path.

[NightDagger]

When you create a party & you have 18 lvl 90 job's in it you expect great things. The problem is only 9 out of the 18 will have even average gear & 4 of those 9 will be the only ones who truly know how to play their job. Anyone could have any DD at 90 and just hit crap but that is not the point. We want a DD that knows what to do & when to do it not someone who just got from lvl 1-90 in 2 days & is like "look at me i just did Dragon kick for 550 dmg. O.O"

Spend the time to skill up
learn your job role & it's abilities
get even par gear not AF1 that you quested in 2 hours

after people actually spend the time to do these easy steps then people will enjoy them in their PT even if their Monk only has the standard/quested WS & is doing 1-2k dmg. That is just great. I by far do not have the best gear for my job BUT i spend everyday i play either getting merits for my job, getting seals for my AF3 or am out skilling up & doing Trials so that I will have decent gear to be able to do some decent dmg with my Monk.

I am by far no pro but I truly do believe we can all still only learn more about this game. Their is to much to be able to memorize off wiki to call yourself an expert.

NightDagger
Server - Lakshmi

[Greatguardian]

When people refer to the "old way", dare I ask what exactly that entails?

I'm willing to bet it involves pink toucans in some way, shape, or form.

[Topdogg]

omg, not this thread again ; ;

[NrvnqsrKhaos]

I'd just like to point out, as a lowbie and someone who started playing recently, that messing around in Abbysea, watching my LSmates tackle huge birds and stuff, occasionally learning simple things like "Ladybugs aggro by sight", and basically having a good time is a lot more fun than a regular party. I imagine if I was just keywhoring with a random group, it wouldn't be nearly as entertaining. Banning entry to Abyssea would ruin this fun, and limit what I can do with my high-level friends, even as a spectator.

Also, I then went and soloed my Skill-ups (I got XP from the bosses they killed, leveled up a few times!), cause seeing blue numbers is nicer than white numbers.

[Greatguardian]

I like this guy.

[Juri_Licious]

Well, my message was ignored due to people arguing a while back so, i'll repost what I can remember.

How would this be fair to people who get Abbysea after a patch like this happens?

That means that previous players would've been level 70- (Minus) leveling up considerably easier while, after this patch would happen those, who are new to Abbysea would have to level all the way up to level 70.

That's an insane unfair advantage.

[Aerius]

I see how limiting abyssea could both be good, as well as (very) bad.
From a marketing standpoint, you don't give something and then take it away.

'Ts like SE coming out now and saying: "You know what guys, you're right. Lv90 and Abyssea destroyed the game. We're removing the Abyssea content with all the gear you could get from it, as well as reducing the cap back down to 75. This also means we're rolling back all characters that have leveled through Abyssea.
Oh, and we're putting back the caps on all the missions and stuff, good luck!"

(Oh yes, I'm fully aware some people would LOVE that, but it's just not how it works anymore.)

[Kitheren]

I don't really care that the minimum entry level is 30.

If people wanna leach experience that badly, they will. There are many ways. And they are only gimping themselves in the long run. Yes, getting from level 30-90 doesn't take much time. But what about the countless hours it will take to skill up? I think that is their price to way, along with the usual leach fee.

Personally, I use Abyssea to level subjobs and be done with them. Forever.

[Invasion]

Too little too late, Abyssea has been around for nearly a year now and the only jobs I don't have leveled are the jobs I have no interest in.

[Kjara]

I don't have anything against the people who do grind levels through leeching really, what I dislike is:
- People who burn their first 90 job and then act like they know everything and are better than most.
- People around lv30-68 who will refuse your EXP pt invite and keep flag up hoping to be invited as leeches.
EXP is EXP, why screw up a potential exp pt where the exp/kill is even superior to whatever you can get in abyssea?

SE did a lot of things to incentive people into EXP pting again (double exp, FoV, level sync, tags buffs), but that doesn't seem to be enough.
If they really don't feel like *forcing* people to exp pt by raising Abyssea level limit, maybe all they can do is put EXP chests out of abyssea too.

[Xensai]

yeah in some aspects the older ways were different some could say better but ask yourselves this? how is leeching abyssea any different from getting PL'd throughout 1/2 of your levels? i mean the dunes back in the day you loved it when u were getting PL'd i dont know about the other people who use abyssea to leech but i myself have 2 accounts which i ask the leader if i can leech on one whilst healing on the other and before i see rants/flames about how im gonna be gimp because i didnt level my job correctly so i dont know how to play it properly. i get the gear i need level the skills i need to and play the job inside and out with my friends before i take it anywhere where the general public can see how/what i've even done.

[Kjara]

I don't think leeching in abyssea can be compared to being PLed... PL in the first place can't kill the mobs for you, you can't just stay idle and watch. But I guess I see your point.

[Invasion]

There's a difference between burning a job to 90 and knowing the job and not. This game has been around long enough for people to have an understanding of game mechanics, so when I recently burned WAR to 90 I knew exactly what I was doing once finished. Just because I'd never used Raging Rush before doesn't mean I don't know how to gear for it, the same for TP in that you follow the same rules.

[Rambus]

There's a difference between burning a job to 90 and knowing the job and not. This game has been around long enough for people to have an understanding of game mechanics, so when I recently burned WAR to 90 I knew exactly what I was doing once finished. Just because I'd never used Raging Rush before doesn't mean I don't know how to gear for it, the same for TP in that you follow the same rules.
you would think so wouldn't you?

na i hate the abyssea being able to enter at 30, really need to go back to real parties where people actally kicked people if they use a level 10 scythe and mab gear on a level 75 drk

[Morlen]

i say let em, they wanna leech their way up, thats fine

cuz the ppl that know the jobs, u know, the ones that have actually logged like 100+hrs on it fighting hnms/gods etc will be able to spot em in a heartbeat

back in the day with bought characters, i used to kick em from my xp pt's all the time
an rdm that doesnt use convert to save his mp(odd i know)
a war that never used provoke when nin lost hate and mob went for the mages
a drk that blows all /ja's +ws at start of fight
a rng using /whm and a 'rang wearing melee att gear( this one made me lol when i saw this)

they will get known in time

and to those that do learn the job they burn up, good for u!
less of a burden on those ppl depending on u to do the role

[Rambus]

I Disagree with OP.

I have 3 jobs at 60 now, because its harder then hell to get them into regular parties at that point.

I'm sick of all these whiners about lower lvls in abyss. I havent been in abyss for weeks because they dont let in anyone under 75 already. Which translates into a bunch of whiners not allowing me to leech for two hours so I can xp for a couple weeks with a nongimp character. Sad really.

thats WHY entery should be 70+ or 75+ if people under those levels can't enter abysea the old way of pting would be more common and thus your personal invites would increase.

I had 19 75s before abyssea, it was not hard to get into a party the days before abyssea came out. it was hard for some jobs like how pup, dnc, pld, drk may be looked down on but all and all it wasn't that hard, plus you had level sync to make it easier.

the only counter I can see to my agurment is that new people entering is low, I do not understand why, maybe recruit a friend program like wow does, i really dont know its kinda strange to me

[Ezikiel]

i get with my shell all the time and just go do Random xp parties all you need is good friends not everyone is stuck in abyssea 24/7 LS wintersoul on bismarck

[viion]

If they did this to prevent leechers, they might as well fix up astral burn (if they havent already)

[Kailea_Nagisa]

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]

tell me why his post is stupid? Leveling was not hard, and hell with the new updates to it, it is even easier, I duoed with an LS mate, and we where level synced to level 11, I went from 42 to 43 in about 20-25 mins. That is not bad at all. We had a PL but they really did not do much since we where 1-2 shooting everything. If the PL was not there I would have said more like 30 mins, and even then, that is not bad.

This is an MMORPG you should not beable to level a job from 30 to 75 in a day -.-

[NightDagger]

I understand what everyone is saying here and I agree with 75% os the posts. There is not alot of difference between what people are trying to say.

If the cap in abyssea was say 45+ for Visions, 60+ for Scars & 75+ for Hero's then it would still allow everyone equal opportunity. That is of course in accordance with the mob levels in each zone. Why can't a 45 pt be made and go burn in Vision zones? It would work, people would be getting good xp & then they could actually feel some accomplishment.

These are all just thoughts but we know SE will have a hard time changing anything at this point. They could nerf abyssea which would eliminate the alliance & back to 6 person party. I personally enjoy just going in with 4 or 5 people, do some DOM's and get some merits.

Is nice to see that people are getting more civilized on these threads and not as negative towards the OP for just stating something that a lot of people agree with.

NightDagger
Server - Lakshmi

[rog]

This is an MMORPG you should not beable to level a job from 30 to 75 in a day -.-
Why not? I don't see why that is a problem.

[Ezikiel]

Why not? I don't see why that is a problem.

i agree totally

[Kuishen]

tell me why his post is stupid? Leveling was not hard, and hell with the new updates to it, it is even easier, I duoed with an LS mate, and we where level synced to level 11, I went from 42 to 43 in about 20-25 mins. That is not bad at all. We had a PL but they really did not do much since we where 1-2 shooting everything. If the PL was not there I would have said more like 30 mins, and even then, that is not bad.

This is an MMORPG you should not beable to level a job from 30 to 75 in a day -.-

His post was stupid for a number of reasons:

This game is 8 years old, the content is no longer focused on leveling. Why would you want to make something that should no longer be the main focus of an 8 year old game more time consuming? Why would you want to make something that was not at all in any shape or form enjoyable last longer than it has to? Why would you do the above after having the restrictions of leveling lifted for almost a year now?

Nobody plays this game to level their jobs now. It is a means to an end.

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).] the fact that below level 65ish you're not even halfway done with the exp curve to get to 75. So of course it's going to be somewhat fast.

This is an 8 year old MMORPG and making something that is outdated harder than it needs to be is stupid and redundant. End of discussion.

[Kailea_Nagisa]

My example still stands, because before hand it used to take about an hour, to atleast for low levels the EXP time has been but in half. You might not like leveling, but there are many out there that like the path to the end, and not just the end. Yes this game is 8 years old, but that does not mean SE should dumb it down to where there is almost no point in playing it anymore.

[Ezikiel]

i still have fun playing it even with the speed with which u level i now go to abyssea and fight solo most of the time to skill up and hunt items faster xp has not made this game too easy

[Kuishen]

My example still stands, because before hand it used to take about an hour, to atleast for low levels the EXP time has been but in half. You might not like leveling, but there are many out there that like the path to the end, and not just the end. Yes this game is 8 years old, but that does not mean SE should dumb it down to where there is almost no point in playing it anymore.

No it doesn't. EXP parties do not fight EP-DC mobs.

By many you mean few. As the majority of the people posting on this forum or in this thread have disagreed with the OP. EDIT: Nobody is stopping you from leveling the old way. So again, your argument is invalid.


Yes this game is 8 years old, but that does not mean SE should dumb it down to where there is almost no point in playing it anymore.

You're still in the mindset that leveling is everything to do in the game, thus without leveling there is no point in playing anymore. Hence why your argument is invalid, because that simply isn't true.

[Kailea_Nagisa]

Again leveling from 30 to 75 in a day is horrible in an MMORPG environment, it breeds nothing but laziness.

it is sad how spoiled MMORPG players have been in recent years.......

[Kuishen]

Again leveling from 30 to 75 in a day is horrible in an MMORPG environment, it breeds nothing but laziness.

it is sad how spoiled MMORPG players have been in recent years.......

Explain to me how actively doing something for an entire day to achieve a goal is breeding laziness? I'd say that's being ambitious.

Also, again, 8 year old game, leveling is not the main focus, your arguments are invalid. Stop repeating yourself and go away.

EDIT: Apparently something that takes less than a couple weeks is lazy. Well ***. Why don't we all just stop playing and start working on jigsaw puzzles with 400k pieces.

[Kailea_Nagisa]

Does not matter how old the game is, Ultima Online did not do this, EverQuest did not do this, and they are both a good bit older then FFXI. Place a cap on the new zones, and make people do things the right way. The idea of stepping up the level caps is even a better idea, although I would put it at more like 50/60/70.

and really? Not breeding laziness? You stand there and leech EXP, how is that not lazy?

[NightDagger]

After leveing what is there to do? You can work on AF3+2 which does not really take that much time when looking at how it use to be to get your AF2/gods. Soo what we are left to do is level a job to 90, spend a week getting the skillups needed. Then another 2 weeks of farming to get AF3+2 and you Emp. Weapon. Then your done. You don't need an endgame LS anymore cause what are you going to fight? So all you are stating is that this game is now at it's end and SE can pretty much stop any updates cause everyone is happy with the final result we have.

That is NOT what this game was built for. If you have played this game for the 8+ years most have then you know what we all went through when getting our first lvl 75. You can say no one liked leveling but there was 3 times the amount of people on the servers 7 you could always get a PT invite. now you either pu your flag up to go to abyssea, lvl synch. or just /tell people asking to key whore or leech. WOW that is just sad, the difficulty level of this game is at a 2 now. Maybe the only job that is still fun & they are not able to assist it in any way is Blue Mage. Atleast i still have to get spells the old way or would you prefer just being able to buy those spells as well?

I am having a hard time understanding why people are so in love with just logging online playing for 6 hours & getting a lvl 9 job plus hlaf an Emp. Weapon completed.