RDM tanking(post your comments and thoughts on it here)

[wildsprite]

I personally want to be able to tank as a RDM whenever the situation might call for it, for example the tank has too many mobs on them at once and nobody else in the party is situated to tank, like with most parties you got mostly DD but they arent really equipped to tank, RDM can in most cases tank fairly well after level 34 with flash and stoneskin, and even better with Utsusemi:Ichi/Ni and with the right gear

[rog]

Yeah. I still don't understand why they nerfed it to begin with. Especially after so many years we had been tanking just fine.

[wildsprite]

I think they had some fear we would be used as tanks in a regular party or something....they should at the very least give us gear that allows us to better tank/melee for when the situation calls for it

[rog]

I think they had some fear we would be used as tanks in a regular party or something....they should at the very least give us gear that allows us to better tank/melee for when the situation calls for it
I'm pretty sure rdms have been tanking exp parties much longer than hnms.

[wildsprite]

hmm, well I still think if the job is capable it should be able to do it, and RDM is capable of tanking fairly well if they have the right gear and can keep hate

[Duelle]

I think they had some fear we would be used as tanks in a regular party or something....they should at the very least give us gear that allows us to better tank/melee for when the situation calls for itEmnity is a big issue, though. The way our class is designed is that we have no baseline emnity tools. We get whatever we can from subbing something, but that is not nearly enough.

Emnity as a whole needs changes, but you'd have to toss in a RDM-native spell or ability to generate hate, then toss flash on top of it and do something to allow damage from enspells to generate hate as well. Then melee performance and its role in generating hate has to be re-evalued, after which re-evaluing how that interacts with jobs like /BLU, /PLD and /WAR. Much like our melee, tanking needs mechanic changes, it would seem.

[rog]

and can keep hate
Hence the problem. Our only real hate tools now are cures, which suck for CE, and dd. We can hold hate great on weaker nms that we can nuke for 4k damage, but tanks aren't even sort of needed for such nms, so it doesn't really matter.

[Xikeroth]

Hey SE seems to have no issues with MONKS tanking weaker NMs, I think SE should re-think RDM as a whole because what they wanted us to be just isn't needed or isn't done. I remember with proper SATA from SAMs I was RDM/NIN tanking Byakko quite decently(even though he still hurt lol)

I think SE needs to take a serious look at RDM because instead of being the frontline "jack of all trades" they wanted us to be people stuck us to one trade, cure.

[Zade]

RDM tanking in my experiences is a lot of fun! To do so successfully you will need a lot of patience and practice. The first thing you will want to do is get as much VIT, DEF, and -physical damage gear as you can. Second is get the highest DEF "type 1" shield you can, this will make a HUGE difference; it doesn't matter that the "type 1" shield blocks less damage per hit because it blocks more often and with Stoneskin and Phalanx on, the difference becomes null except in the case of a critical hit. Keep your opponent/s in front of you to allow the shield and parry to proc. Shield and parry might not be much in and of themselves but every "grain" of sand will be added to cement a wall of defense. Keep Aquaveil on at all times; along with -spell casting interruption rate gear(macro swap in your Warlock's Tabard for Stoneskin) and merits. You really only need for Stoneskin to last until it can be recast; if it lasts longer than that, it's just icing on the cake. Campain battles are a great place to practice tanking especially so if you can get your hands on some of the Campain specific gear. Icespikes are a RDM's best friend along with a pair of Duelist's tights. Use Enaero II to lower you foe's resistance(if any) to ice magic so that your ice spikes will have a probability of greater effect. To engage your enemies with "Composure" I think says a lot about what it takes to tank as a RDM. The ability is amazing by itself, but the real magic is in the meaning.

[cidbahamut]

RDM tanking in my experiences is a lot of fun! To do so successfully you will need a lot of patience and practice. The first thing you will want to do is get as much VIT, DEF, and -physical damage gear as you can. Second is get the highest DEF "type 1" shield you can, this will make a HUGE difference; it doesn't matter that the "type 1" shield blocks less damage per hit because it blocks more often and with Stoneskin and Phalanx on, the difference becomes null except in the case of a critical hit. Keep your opponent/s in front of you to allow the shield and parry to proc. Shield and parry might not be much in and of themselves but every "grain" of sand will be added to cement a wall of defense. Keep Aquaveil on at all times; along with -spell casting interruption rate gear(macro swap in your Warlock's Tabard for Stoneskin) and merits. You really only need for Stoneskin to last until it can be recast; if it lasts longer than that, it's just icing on the cake. Campain battles are a great place to practice tanking especially so if you can get your hands on some of the Campain specific gear. Icespikes are a RDM's best friend along with a pair of Duelist's tights. Use Enaero II to lower you foe's resistance(if any) to ice magic so that your ice spikes will have a probability of greater effect. To engage your enemies with "Composure" I think says a lot about what it takes to tank as a RDM. The ability is amazing by itself, but the real magic is in the meaning.

You have absolutely no idea what they're talking about, do you?

[rog]

You have absolutely no idea what they're talking about, do you?
Nope, he doesn't.

The SATA nonsense above was pretty silly too.

[Tamarsamar]

Well, while this thread is here, I might as well post my thoughts on it . . .

First of all, the so-called "RDM tanking nerf" was nothing short of spiteful, plain and simple. Not only did it prohibit a Red Mage of any sort from tanking (not from an inability to take hits, but rather an inability to get the mob to look at us), but as a side-effect, it totally demolished the PLD/RDM (which also suffered from Paladin natively obtaining Phalanx), NIN/RDM, and NIN/DRK options as well, essentially leaving only PLD/WAR, PLD/NIN, and maybe PLD/DNC and NIN/WAR as the remaining tank options, total. One could argue that the enmity decrease could help protect genuinely dedicated mages from meeting a messy end, but if that was the purpose of that update, then why was the enmity from spells such as Sleepga untouched?

As far as my opinions on whether Red Mages should be able to tank or not, I see absolutely no reason why not; in fact, I daresay that being the versatile "jack of all trades," should lend itself well to tanking! Think about it this way: all party roles can be divided in to varying degrees of two elements: killing the mob, and keeping everybody else alive. What roles other than "tank" pull as heavily from both those elements? It follows that a good tank should be versatile.

Again, the only thing keeping Red Mages from being a good tank is that the devs refuse to allow us to be easily equipped for holding enmity, presumably because Paladin is their baby or something. I mean, not that we should tank nearly as well as a Paladin, but to all you Red Mages complaining about our now sub-par healing abilities: imagine what it would be like if we didn't have the spell Cure at all, and you'd roughly have the equivalent of our tanking ability right now. We can survive to Apocalypse Nigh, yes, but generating enmity at all? Good luck with that . . .

[Valkrist]

You have absolutely no idea what they're talking about, do you?

I don't think his post says anything wrong. He's just stating what he feels about RDM tanking, the same as what the topic is. If anything if SE reads it, it's a positive note that someone enjoyed doing it.

As for my opinion of the subject, I really have not much to say since I've never done it. My RDM was leveled after the change was implemented. Though I can comment that that update caused my BRD to die much more due to Sleep enmity being nonexistent.

I don't think that SE purposely used that update to nerf RDM tanking. I feel that they were trying to give a bone to BLMs that complain of dying due to the CE building over time.

[Tamarsamar]

I don't think that SE purposely used that update to nerf RDM tanking. I feel that they were trying to give a bone to BLMs that complain of dying due to the CE building over time.

Read the post above yours: if this is truly the case, why hasn't the enmity on Sleepga been reduced?

[cidbahamut]

I don't think his post says anything wrong. He's just stating what he feels about RDM tanking, the same as what the topic is.

No, no he is not. He's yammering on about how to not fall down while wielding a sword and shield. That is not tanking.

[rog]

I don't think that SE purposely used that update to nerf RDM tanking. I feel that they were trying to give a bone to BLMs that complain of dying due to the CE building over time.
That might explain sleep (but not really, because even for ablm, it's a pain in the ass, not having the mob wake up and come right to us, just because someone used a cure1 on us, and instead runs off to who the hell knows where), but not blind, dispel, and bind. It was a nerf directed at us, pure and simple. They removed ever last source of CE for us, except cures which give very little, and cost huge amounts of mp.

[Valkrist]

The enmity from Sleepga was reduced. Like I said, it's quite noticeable to the point where BRDs stacking Lullaby with Sleepga tend to die after Sleep wearing, instead of the BLMs we're used to seeing when Sleep wears. Even when the BLM casts Sleepga I and then Sleepga II to prolong the sleep duration. I can quite easily say that the enmity was reduced.

As for why the other spells that RDMs cast that generate so much hate, again it may very well be SE's bone to try to make it so that mages don't die as quickly. Yes, I know I changed my statement from BLM to a more general mage. I know that non-tanking mages enjoy this improvement, which is more of the population than the tanking mages population. It really could be nothing more than appeasing the larger crowd than the smaller one.

As for what the guy I defended earlier... I'll be honest, I skimmed through what he had to say because I'm not particularly interested in self promoted, dramatized, explanations to the way to do things. So I'll admit if he really was saying something along the lines of what you said, I'm sorry for derailing the thread.

[HazyEvo]

Never done it, have wanted to but yeah...

I would've taken a slight enmity reduction on my spells other than almost completely nulllify it. Typically it was awesome when shit hit the fan and you're the only one that keeps their head, cast a few spells then kite. That's where I remember it being really useful. I'd like some enmity back prz.

[GERM]

at the rate things are going I would like to avoid this and leave the tanking abilities and improvements to the tanks, i do like the ability to take hits and what not but they have already caused enough jobs to take over primary rolls that doing this is just going to cause PLD and or WAR and DNC to be pushed even more to the side

[rog]

Pld can't be pushed more to the side, it's already been pushed into being useless, which is not likely to change.

Rdm tanks do not even sort of do the same thing as war or dnc tanks, so not sure why you think we'd make them obsolete.

[Supersun]

If anything I think it would almost break the game if Pld WAS a viable tank again, I mean Ochain already makes them near immortal >.>.

[noodles355]

Rdm's use as a tank is on a mob that you can't melee. If it's melee-able then even if rdm had it's enmity generating abilities restored and even buffed to extreme leveles, it still wouldn't take the spot of the other tank jobs. You know why? Because if it's meleeable then you take a tank that can DD it while tanking to increase killspeed. Comparing Rdm tanking to war, drk, sam, mnk, nin, etc tanking is retarded.

No melee Rdm doesn't count.

[Supersun]

I'd take a melee Rdm over a Drk or Sam currently.

[noodles355]

I'd take a melee Rdm over a Drk or Sam currently.If he had Chant du Cigne then maybe. But that's the only reason you ever would.

[Skylark]

If he had Chant du Cigne then maybe. But that's the only reason you ever would.
^ This, while DRK / SAM may be underpowered outside of late, RDM most of the time still isn't going to do as well. Of course, gear, skill, etc all play a part, but I'm assuming standard players.

[Supersun]

That's because the standard red game trying to melee would be better off naked then some of the gear they decide to wear.

Was more referring to the standard red mage who actually knows how to melee. Those would probably beat your average Sams and Drks (and White Mages that know how to melee curb stomp them).

[Raka]

I support this idea and Red mage does hold the title of "Jack of All Trades" in my opinion. I personally would like to see Swords and/or Shields specifically built for Red mage that help to modify their MAB or MAA at the very least so they can actually make use of their melee capabilities in paticular.

Was there ever a reason that SquareEnix removed "Flash" from the Red mage spell list in the first place? I never did understand why they did that, yet they left Divine magic skill accessibly high.

I would like to see Cure V added somewhere down the road, too. As Cure IV isn't cutting it anymore, especially within Abyssea.

Also, sorry in advance if I had reposting anything that was already said.

[Alukat]

yeah RDM needs something to hold hate.
<3 RDM tanking, i can remember the time (level 75) when i went to skill up parrying / shield during Sea Horrors hundret fists.
RDM/blm is nice on mobs that don't put out tooooo much damage (hitting for 200+ [before pdt- & shield block]and DA or TA too frequently).Drain adds some good dmg/cure.
RDM/nin is fine for all mobs.
But I always use Genbu's shield as sub because the 10%pdt- and high block rate is nice. ^^

PS: i didn't have the time to read all posts.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I support this idea and Red mage does hold the title of "Jack of All Trades" in my opinion. I personally would like to see Swords and/or Shields specifically built for Red mage that help to modify their MAB or MAA at the very least so they can actually make use of their melee capabilities in paticular.

Was there ever a reason that SquareEnix removed "Flash" from the Red mage spell list in the first place? I never did understand why they did that, yet they left Divine magic skill accessibly high.

I would like to see Cure V added somewhere down the road, too. As Cure IV isn't cutting it anymore, especially within Abyssea.

Also, sorry in advance if I had reposting anything that was already said.

Dia was originally Divine Skill.

As for Jack of all Trades, they are magic wise but after lvl. 50, whether anyone likes it or not, they lost the melee capability, and that's all SquareEnix's fault, trying not to over power them left them gimped in the melee department, their Empyrean Armour is a testament to that. The only job that was originally meant to melee that gets no STR, Attack, haste or anything to help at all where melee is concerned.

It's funny they got careful not to over power RDM, yet look at WAR and MNK at the current time who are severely over-powered.

[Tamarsamar]

As much as I hate making posts on the bottom of the page, I figure making a new topic for this would be rather uncouth.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/5950


Job Trait: Tranquil Heart
WHM Lv. 21
RDM Lv. 26
SCH Lv. 30

Reduces enmity gain when casting healing magic.

Well, it seems that, most unfortunately, the devs have spoken, and have decided to get rid of the one source of enmity that we had left.

Red Mage tanking was already depressingly dead. This is simply the final nail in the coffin. :(

[Glamdring]

Well, it seems that, most unfortunately, the devs have spoken, and have decided to get rid of the one source of enmity that we had left.

I don't know about the ONLY source, as a guy you might fight in a PVP if you cast Fire IV on me I WILL try to sink an axe into your forehead...

[Tamarsamar]

I don't know about the ONLY source, as a guy you might fight in a PVP if you cast Fire IV on me I WILL try to sink an axe into your forehead...

Only problem with that is that the conventional rules of enmity and tanking don't exactly apply in PVP. :p

And yes, strictly speaking our damage is also a source of enmity . . . but (assuming each job is going for damage) we should really only be out-damaging, what, Bards and (hopefully) White Mages? Which I suppose is passable if you're duoing with one of those jobs, but otherwise . . .

(Though there's not much reason for our damage to not be on par with the likes of Corsairs, Dancers, or Paladins . . .)

[Seriha]

A good BRD and WHM would probably trounce a RDM these days, sadly. Perhaps the only jobs RDM is better than martially would be SMN, SCH, and BLM. Though, I'd be fuzzy on SMN depending on whether or not you wanna count the avatar.

[Tamarsamar]

WHM I could see being debatable (which is actually very, very sad), but I'm not sure I could say the same for BRD. Though it got stupidly good melee gear "back in the day" (Sky gear and Hecatomb, anyone?), I haven't kept up with whether or not that trend continued with their gear past 75.

Concerning SMN, I am, in fact, counting avatars, and for SCH and BLM I'm counting magical damage (and assuming the SCH is in DD mode).

(And seriously S-E, I can understand not wanting to make RDM out-damage half of the jobs in the game, but if it's a distinct possibility for a *White Mage* to out-damage us, then it becomes just plain stupid.)

[AyinDygra]

Sorry for the "necrobump", but don't think we need two tanking threads out there.

In my recent "expansion" megapost, I added 6 "new jobs" that would have been 7, but when I reviewed the job, I realized "this isn't a new job, it's Red Mage in a tanking position." This job was Mystic Knight (link). (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/14365-My-Ideal-Expansion?p=190091&viewfull=1#post190091)

I'm wondering what Rdms would think about this topic: Would this be a potential compromise for the Rdm Melee crowd and magic crowd? Would they both welcome this new twist on the job? I'd like to keep the discussion here, rather than in the expansion thread, so I'll copy-paste it here.

* Mystic Knight
Basically, they're a combination of Celes from FF6, the Magical Fencer of FF5, Steiner of FF9, & Tidus' spheregrid section in FFX; Knights that used Runic & Swordspells, designed to be the perfect tank against magic casters and great damage dealers against monsters weak to certain elements. There is enough to this job to make it unique in FFXI, but Red Mage almost fits the description already with its selection of En-spells and in the past, Red Mage has shown its potential as a tank job, which is where I think it should be when it's on the front lines (sadly, most of its enmity tools were cut away, possibly intentionally, but likely just a side effect of helping other mages since they generated so much enmity). In this role, they can easily co-tank with a Paladin, so the party gets the best of both worlds.

To create the "Mystic Knight" side of Red Mage, add:
Abilities aimed at Tanking:

Runic Blade: (level 10) Several acceptable implementations come to mind, absorbing spells to prevent damage to self or party & gain MP. (This should be at a support job level so Paladin can use /Rdm against magic using enemies too.) Enemies should hate when their spells get absorbed. (enmity)
All For One and One For All:(Afoaofa) (Level 50) A Sphere effect that copies all self-target spell effects on the Red Mage to party members in range while they are in range. (May have a perpetuation cost associated with each active effect, like -1mp each) This needs to build more enmity for each person in range.

* Shield Job Abilities of some sort: one related to the Null-spells below. One may convert some damage blocked by their shield into MP. One may allow more than one "spikes" type effect to be active, like Ice Spikes and Shock Spikes or, if not possible, may increase the duration of spikes (alternatively, or additionally, they could have a shield-based ability that makes spikes spells actively strike their currently engaged enemy on a tick basis, and also reactively when hit.)
* "Ethereal Guard" that reduces magic damage taken in an area of effect for your nearby party members, and requires a shield to increase its AoE range and/or potency. (more enmity)

Job Abilities aimed at Melee:
Ensorceled Blade: (level 20) Allows elemental magic cast (by enemies, your party, or even yourself) to grant you a single-use effect like "sneak attack", that delivers the spell's damage through your next physical strike, bypassing normal magic evasion rates, replaced by physical checks. (may be linked to "Runic Blade"'s effect to absorb the spell first) This would be unique to Red Mage, perhaps simply granted to Red Mage as a trait, so use of Runic Blade enables this effect. This sort of additional damage DOES count toward enmity, unlike en-spell damage.
Spellsword (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/294-On-Red-Mage-melee...?p=89399&viewfull=1#post89399) Similar to Ensorceled Blade, this allows the Red Mage to strike physically and release a magic spell at the same time for the cost of MP and TP. They can't normally cast Ancient Magic; it can be done only through their blades. (see link above for more detail)
* Maybe an "En Garde" type stance that increases sword & dagger skill levels and improves Riposte rate at the expense of higher MP costs for spells.

Melee job traits

Riposte This allows counterattacks when wielding a sword. Riposte-Counter ignores defense.
Magic Fencer: Increases en-spell damage & elemental affinity related to current enspell's element.
Swordbreaker: When using a mainhand sword & offhand dagger, Increase Parry; may grant "offhand wield" without the offhand attacks of dual wield and will not add the delay impact of a second weapon in this case.
Existing Traits now given to Red Mage: Fencer, Critical Defense Bonus, Occult Acumen (stronger tiers of this and earlier than others) And more tiers of Shield Mastery starting at lower levels.

All sword weaponskills (with the exception of other jobs' mythic weaponskills)

A few unique spells:

Like Temper (would work great with "Afoaofa".)
Sharpen Increase melee attack power.
Lock Lowers enemy evasion. (an enfeeble that doubles as a melee bonus for those without much accuracy gear)
Reflect Reflect one single target spell back at caster. Does not reflect -ga spells, but -ga spells do not remove the reflect status when they hit. This capitalizes on the Magic Tank concept. Many times, however, casters attack with spells that they themselves are strong against, so the spells sent back at them won't be as powerful as feared by most who think this would be overpowered. As an example of a similar effect at work, see Ninja shadows which can completely nullify several single target spells; they just don't cause counter damage. (they don't cost MP either)
At higher levels:
Astra AoE spell that protects each person with the Astra status from the next enfeeble that hits. (Pld and Whm should get this too)
Null-Blaze/Frost/Thunder/Stone/Water/Wind Prevent damage from the next spell matching the current Null-element spell (not enfeebles, and enfeeble spells will not remove this status). Only one Null-spell can be active at any given time. These may be boosted in effect if a shield is equipped and a new shield skill is used to occasionally allow 2 spells to be blocked rather than one. Null-spells could also be given to Whm.
Tier III En-spells: The next offensive single-target spell (Tiers I-III, maybe IV) selected by the Rdm is "Instantly Cast" at no MP cost after all critical hits for the duration. (This effect could extend to also trigger after closing a skillchain that the chosen spell can magic burst off of, similar to a wyvern breath.) Enfeeble Spells may also be used with this ability, perhaps bypassing normal resistance checks, replaced by physical accuracy (and crit rate).



Gear that encourages melee/tanking

The tradeoff on these sets will be neglecting the magical stats. These sets of gear would have stats like:
* Enmity+
* Melee stats
* Enhance dual wield (despite not having it natively)
* Enhance convert (Converting more HP from each MP, so as a tank, they can directly convert their MP into HP to survive in dire circumstances. While spells may be more efficient and powerful at restoring HP, they can be interrupted.)
* Much more "enhance en-spell damage" gear along with some weapons that boost melee-mage stats like +accuracy and +magic accuracy of spells matching your current en-spell's element. (the use of en-spells to increase magic accuracy could also become a mage-side bonus, even when they're not engaged in melee combat.)

With these things, it's got a solid hold on a new niche when it's not on the back lines. (If any of this seems too powerful, you're expectation of the effect is too strong. If you math-wiz people feel so inclined, please provide SE with math to show how crazy something really is to be called overpowered, or show how strong it would have to be to be useful.) As for being the ultimate self-enhancers in the game, this concept builds on that vision quite well. Many of these abilities and spells should be available from /Rdm as a support job for other tanks.

This is what we end up with:

Back Lines Red Mage: Enhance self and others & Enfeeble monsters, with some Curing & Nuking thrown in. (These are the current abilities that cause them to be invited to parties such as Haste and Refresh. I'm not suggesting removing this party role. They do need more unique enfeebling spells that no other jobs get, and they need debuffs to land on more enemies that matter, which is one thing that's being adjusted as I write.)

Front Lines Red Mage: Anti-Magic Tank & Elemental Damage Dealer. Enhance self with spells to damage & protect while enfeebling the enemy to survive. Cure self & party members for more enmity (maybe En Garde cancels out Tranquil Heart's effect and makes all magic create more enmity?, especially enfeebles), nuke for extra damage and for bonus enmity from magic bursts (trait of En Garde?).

These are mutually exclusive roles. You shouldn't expect a front lines Red Mage to fulfill any/many of the back line roles simultaneously unless your party runs into problems and they have to switch roles on the fly. And they certainly wouldn't fill their enhancing role while tanking, unless they get sphere effects or AoE buffs that don't have to be cast on each individual party member over and over.

If this sounds too much like a new job... and you want to step this far onto Red Mage's toes, taking over En-spell mastery and curing and nuking... go ahead and make Mystic Knight!

P.S. Many of my ideas are elaborated on my post in the Red Mage melee thread here. (link) My concept has evolved since then, as seen in this job idea, beyond what I originally posted. (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/294-On-Red-Mage-melee...?p=85016&viewfull=1#post85016)

[Jeez]

boom magic tank class out of nowhere
Actually, I very much like the idea of an anti-magic tank. Runic and Reflect have long been suggestions for RDM to have, and combining elemental magic with sword swings I'm pretty sure I've seen one or two versions of it suggested. Now that I think about it, since PLD was stripped of its right to tank physical attacks, do you suppose that SE is trying to push PLD to become a primarily magic defense job? This would probably be more likely than giving RDM the ability to tank again.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Actually, I very much like the idea of an anti-magic tank. Runic and Reflect have long been suggestions for RDM to have, and combining elemental magic with sword swings I'm pretty sure I've seen one or two versions of it suggested. Now that I think about it, since PLD was stripped of its right to tank physical attacks, do you suppose that SE is trying to push PLD to become a primarily magic defense job? This would probably be more likely than giving RDM the ability to tank again.


Who is your dealer and where can I get some of that good stuff.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

How has PLD been stripped? just because it isn't used as one doesn't change the fact it's still the best job for DMG mitigation.

[Jeez]

Of its right, not its ability! It's been removed from tanking by the presence of evasion and shadow tanks, that's all I meant.

[Swords]

Eh that's all on perspective, it's always been a back and forth deal between PLD and NIN and really it always comes down to which is better according to the situation.

[Jeez]

Haha, maybe I'm just thinking too much of Abyssea. I have heard PLD does tank in Voidwatch, but I and anyone I know haven't done it.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Haha, maybe I'm just thinking too much of Abyssea. I have heard PLD does tank in Voidwatch, but I and anyone I know haven't done it.

Yeah, some of them realistically can only safely be tanked by a PLD with an Aegis, otherwise it's a rough fight.

The new ones on the test server are vile things.

[Gokku]

what mobs need an Aegis?

[Daniel_Hatcher]

what mobs need an Aegis?

I never said any mobs needed it, I said: "can only safely be tanked by a PLD with an Aegis" that doesn't mean it's only done that way.

/sigh

[saevel]

I never said any mobs needed it, I said: "can only safely be tanked by a PLD with an Aegis" that doesn't mean it's only done that way.

/sigh
I second this, some of them are straight up EVIL. Their basically abyssea NM's without the crour buffs / mega atma's, no Apoc / RR / GH silliness. Our shell has one O.Chain PLD and one Aegis PLD, both have Almaces and they get tore up, but at least their alive. Melee's tend to die in seconds after pulling hate, this isn't an exaggeration some of those NM's have PT moves that deal 1~1.5K, outside of abyssea. Windy T4 Iron Giant use's Arm Cannon, it was a 20 foot range on target, which is usually your healer. Problem is "cure" max casting range is 20 (you can get away with 20.8), so your healers can and will be one shoted quite frequently. Sandy T4 VWNM will put your tanks into a weakened state, and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it. They gotta learn to tank with half the HP and long timers / ect. Bastok T4 is about the tamest of the bunch, but she's got evil aoe moves that will take away all your MP and deal heavy damage. One of her moves is aoe encumberment (locks all gear). T3 Sandy VWNM likes to do a move that dispell's all your buffs aoe, then immediately follow it with another move that strips all your gear and locks everything out for 30~60s, and then cast Fast Cast Blizzaja or Thundaja onto your tanks.

Anyhow the days of (MNK + WHM beats EVERYTHING!!) is over once you step outside Abyssea. Counterstance tanking doesn't work so well on VWNMs.

[Seriha]

I see nobody has expressed their love for Lord Asag yet.

Stupid charm. -.-

[SpankWustler]

I see nobody has expressed their love for Lord Asag yet.

Stupid charm. -.-

The charm is the best part. It gives the melee a chance to have a 95% hit rate on each other instead of a 70% hit rate on Lord Asag. Helps them get their self-esteem back.

[Covenant]

Should a redmage be allowed to tank? Sure. Should a RDM be allowed to melee? Sure. Should a RDM be allowed to heal? Sure. Should a RDM be allowed to range? Sure. HOWEVER,...

...should they do it better than the "main" jobs? NO. should they do it at equal levels as "main jobs"? NO.

I hate when RDM's quote the "Jack of all trades" comment, yet fail to quote the follow up line which is...
...Jack of all trades...MASTER OF NONE.

The fact that SE gave us the job of "enfeeble/enhance" caster is awesome enough without going into making us DD or nukers or whatever job players "think" a RDM should be.

[Gokku]

i tanked him the other day on pld, he really isnt that bad we did wipe/time out @ 43% due to DD's not being able to hit it since only the DD's from my LS bring sushi and pizzas to voidwatch. and with me on pld there was no UKKO'S!. id have said aegis would be a big help on that fight but i had 0 problems tanking him even though it was the first time i was on pld in a solid 4-5 months.

[Stylin]

I hate when RDM's quote the "Jack of all trades" comment, yet fail to quote the follow up line which is...
...Jack of all trades...MASTER OF NONE.

Master of none doesn't mean "Sucks at them all" either, so I don't see your point.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I hate when RDM's quote the "Jack of all trades" comment, yet fail to quote the follow up line which is...
...Jack of all trades...MASTER OF NONE.

Proved by them having less skill, traits, abilities, no AoE's, and one tier less than the master jobs... well all except healing.

[Covenant]

@stylin. My point is that the RDM threads that want more melee/tank options always point to this idea that RDM's are supposed to be an up front fighter as well as Mage. Yes, they can but RDM ARE supposed to do so in a "limited" quantity or quality. Saying they "suck", is a comparative statement. They suck compared to a melee job or tank job. They do a lot better than other Mage jobs. This is what game balance is supposed to be like..not a RDM that can weaponskill for 2k and drop another 4k in nukes.

[cidbahamut]

melee/tank options

It bothers me that people keep trying to lump these together, because they are not the same thing at all.

[FrankReynolds]

I don't personally think that red mage should be able to tank anything that requires a large group, but......

Didn't SE show a video of a bunch of red mages killing AV? Just sayin.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I don't personally think that red mage should be able to tank anything that requires a large group, but......

Didn't SE show a video of a bunch of red mages killing AV? Just sayin.

Not so much killing them, but the RDM was tanking him.

[Stylin]

@stylin. My point is that the RDM threads that want more melee/tank options always point to this idea that RDM's are supposed to be an up front fighter as well as Mage. Yes, they can but RDM ARE supposed to do so in a "limited" quantity or quality. Saying they "suck", is a comparative statement. They suck compared to a melee job or tank job. They do a lot better than other Mage jobs. This is what game balance is supposed to be like..not a RDM that can weaponskill for 2k and drop another 4k in nukes.

When the only jobs a Red Mage can safely say they can out melee is BLM, SMN, and SCH it's not "comparative" at all.



It bothers me that people keep trying to lump these together, because they are not the same thing at all.

This too. Sure, a Red Mage has all the tools to survive, but what's the point when all the enmity tools have been nerfed into non-existence? Do you expect them to hold hate with mediocre DD?

[Seriha]

Hate reset TP spam is secretly SE's way to get RDM tanking again. :P

[AyinDygra]

So, what I take away from pretty much 99% of these comments after my proposal (Mystic Knight):
Everyone skipped my proposal (because I addressed hate generation and bad melee damage) and just posted their thoughts about tanking off the tops of their heads. (Teaches me for posting in an old thread, guess I should have started a new one)

[Seriha]

Trying not to be a smartass, but proposing a new job as a "fix" to a currently existing one is hardly a fix. Look at all the good BLU's existence has done for those who wish for viable melee on RDM, much as some would wish we'd just smile, migrate, and never return.

FFXI has 20 jobs right now. Arguably too many depending on who you ask. While you could probably place Mystic Knight somewhere between RDM and DRK with a dash of PLD, hybrid jobs are having a rough time actually being hybrids because SE is doing a poor job in giving them what they need, and it doesn't help that some people within these particular job camps fight against doing just that. Personally, until SE has all their ducks in a row, I don't want to see any new jobs.

[AyinDygra]

I specifically noted that it "started" as a new job class, but that it really is more of an addition to Red Mage. (and it's not really all that much of an addition, in the grand scheme of things) It's mostly an extension of existing Red Mage abilities and Spell lines.

edit:

but when I reviewed the job, I realized "this isn't a new job, it's Red Mage in a tanking position."


Would they both welcome this new twist on the job?


There is enough to this job to make it unique in FFXI, but Red Mage almost fits the description already with its selection of En-spells and in the past, Red Mage has shown its potential as a tank job, which is where I think it should be when it's on the front lines (sadly, most of its enmity tools were cut away, possibly intentionally, but likely just a side effect of helping other mages since they generated so much enmity).


To create the "Mystic Knight" side of Red Mage, add:


This is what we end up with:
Back Lines Red Mage:
Front Lines Red Mage:


If this sounds too much like a new job... and you want to step this far onto Red Mage's toes, taking over En-spell mastery and curing and nuking... go ahead and make Mystic Knight!

[SpankWustler]

FFXI has 20 jobs right now. Arguably too many depending on who you ask. While you could probably place Mystic Knight somewhere between RDM and DRK with a dash of PLD, hybrid jobs are having a rough time actually being hybrids because SE is doing a poor job in giving them what they need, and it doesn't help that some people within these particular job camps fight against doing just that. Personally, until SE has all their ducks in a row, I don't want to see any new jobs.

Pretty much this. Balancing current jobs and mechanics should come before huge new additions, otherwise we just end up with two mediocre things (but one is new!) instead of one good thing.

Things aren't as out of whack as some folks advertise, but there is plenty of broken stuff laying around.

[Yandaime]

If anyone remembers the studies done by Kanican when RDM tanking was first discovered, you'll see that when you break down FFXI's Enmity system, CE (Cumulative Enmity) from spells and damage, greatly outweighs VE (Volatile Enmity) from JAs. Before the nerf, several spells that RDM were able to use all had, CE values of 50-100 each, so by simply casting Bind and Dispel back to back repeatedly, RDM was able to generate CE at a staggeringly high rate causing it to completely fold any Tanking counterpart at pulling and keeping hate. Because of this, and RDM's natural ability to survive and its superior shadow casting ability (At that time) RDM was easily the most powerful tanking class vs any NM that needed shadow tanking. I'm sure some of you might remember that with a RDM tanking, BLMs and DDs were more free to let loose than they could ever be with a PLD or NIN tanking. It was simply too hard to take hate from a RDM.

I wanted to remind everyone of this because this is why SE killed RDM tanking. Having a Mage Class, that is naturally self-sufficient, able to hold and keep better hate on major fights, is ground breaking. And for that very same reason, SE will probably not allow RDM to tank like that again. Just a heads up. It took them 2 years before they finally put their foot down on RDM tanking but they did, and they had Chuck Norris do the stomping. RDM tanking is done, for good reason lol

[Seriha]

I feel like it was more of a stab at NIN/DRK than RDM/NIN, really.

[Yandaime]

Meh, I don't see why SE would find any fault in NIN tanking is the only reason I don't want to accept that. NIN/DRK was very good at pulling and holding hate, but their main CE tools were Bind and Stun and MP was a constant problem for NIN/DRK. They were better at holding hate than a PLD and Arguably on the same Level as DRK tanking? But RDM tanking trumped them. Probably the most notorious cases were RDM tanking vs JoL and getting CE so high that it took the DRK in my LS 1 BloodWeapon + Souleater + K Club and 3 consecutive Curebomb K Clubs to finally pull hate. And RDM tank used to stand-tank Kirin instead of kiting. Alot of people like to say it was done to nerf DRK/NIN but the evidence points to them stopping RDM tanking, when they killed the CE values, they did it for ALL spells we use except Cure 4... Our Bar-Spells, Dispel, Sleeps, nothing worked anymore after that and all of these are spells that NIN cant use with DRK sub.
I'm confident SE did that to stop RDM tanking, don't get me wrong I loved being a RDM tank but it was wrong on so many levels... A RDM *Shouldnt* be a better tank than a NIN or PLD and PLDs and NINs got hit in the cross-fire cuz at that time, /DRK and /RDM were viable subs for them

[saevel]

The single issue with RDM "tanking" was it took awhile to build up hate. PLD's and even NIN's had spells / abilities with a high VE value. And while CE and VE are equally valuable, VE wears so fast as to be impossible to maintain, but you tend to get more of it at once. RDM sucks as a sole tank, but absolutely shines when your dual tanking. PLD/NIN + RDM/NIN was the crazy good combo, the PLD would sentinel and blast their hate through the roof, then the RDM would slowly build it and eventually overtake the PLD. Typically took 5min for this to happen, by myself the mob would be chasing the WHM's or the BLM's before I had a chance to build super hate.

So while RDM tanking as awesome, it did have it's limits.

[SpankWustler]

The single issue with RDM "tanking" was it took awhile to build up haste. PLD's and even NIN's had spells / abilities with a high VE value. And while CE and VE are equally valuable, VE wears so fast as to be impossible to maintain, but you tend to get more of it at once. RDM sucks as a sole tank, but absolutely shines when your dual tanking. PLD/NIN + RDM/NIN was the crazy good combo, the PLD would sentinel and blast their hate through the roof, then the RDM would slowly build it and eventually overtake the PLD. Typically took 5min for this to happen, by myself the mob would be chasing the WHM's or the BLM's before I had a chance to build super hate.

So while RDM tanking as awesome, it did have it's limits.

All of this, and additionally, Red Mage tanking went downhill even faster than Paladin tanking once engaging the monster entered the equation. I don't understand why something honestly situational was considered overpowered by the development team.

Tanking seems to be an aspect of the game which the development team takes a large, albeit bizarrely expressed, interest in. If a spell's enmity generation is taken advantage of by people on large, that spell is changed as soon as they can figure out how to untangle their own spaghetti code and change it.

I don't know if I should be hopeful or fearful that they would ever pay so much attention to all elements of FFXI.

[Mageoholic]

The single issue with RDM "tanking" was it took awhile to build up hate.

False. RDM capped hate faster then both PLD and NIN. At the time RDM was the single best tank in the game. This is why it was nerfed because it was being used on everything. 3 minutes and you were capped on CE and VE, and nothing was taking it off. If you wanted DD to be able to start right away you had a THF SATA you and then go sit in his corner out of the ally to watch.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Nin/drk had access to stun/blind/sleep etc., Not sure what Nins you had that were taking significantly longer.

*3 minutes of dealing little damage to the mob