Any new HNM coming?

[Natenn]

Since the rise level cap the traditional HNM(3 Kings, Sandworm Dark Ixion, Cerberus, Khimaira, Tiamat, ect.) Have pretty much lost their allure, now its not uncommon to see these monsters pop and just sit there unclaimed for minutes, hours, possibly days in some cases. The forced popped HNM in abyssea lose value in my opinion since anyone can just go kill them w/o competition. Camping and claiming is what kept alot of people hooked as it meant more to claim since the spawn timers were once a day/few days. Now all there is to do is stuff anyone can do, game seems less fun without anything worth competing over, i really hope to see a new batch of HNM for endgame Lv91-99 release. Ones that are rare, not like the current trend where anyone can do it. Any developers to share their thoughts, opinions, info.?

[Sureal]

the only reason anyone camped those HNM's in the first place was because of the drops, if you actually liked sitting in one spot for 3 hours (or 72 for tiamat) then im sorry, you have other issues,

people that stayed in the game because of those aspects were there mainly to block other players from obtaining the gear, or get everyone in their ls all the gear from each mob (and because of absolutely horrendous drop rates i.e. d ring or ridill, people are still trying to get them)

force pop nm's are the way this game should have been since day one

[Vold]

Is it really still competition when people bot? We enjoy the competition aspect of the game, but when people cheat their way to claims the system no longer works, and is no longer worth keeping around. It only serves to make botting hardcore LSs rich and I think the game has done enough for their ego over the past 9 years. There are severe problems with a MMO when players cannot progress fairly in the end game and must resort to paying cheaters for the items they want.

With that said, if for some reason SE feels they need to go the HNM route again, I want to see zone wide pops to make it impossible to bot.

[Natenn]

the only reason anyone camped those HNM's in the first place was because of the drops, if you actually liked sitting in one spot for 3 hours (or 72 for tiamat) then im sorry, you have other issues,

people that stayed in the game because of those aspects were there mainly to block other players from obtaining the gear, or get everyone in their ls all the gear from each mob (and because of absolutely horrendous drop rates i.e. d ring or ridill, people are still trying to get them)

force pop nm's are the way this game should have been since day one

Well were all entitled to our opinion, heres my opinion: I play on PS2 only, i outclaimed bots plenty of times and i rarely got beat on SW/DI. bar kings you stand a better chance claiming legit then vs a bot, even then ive claimed more with PS2 then ppl botting did. I think forced pop NM are to easy to access and kill. All the FF games usually have several rare/hard to beat/great reward monsters, this 1 doesn't anymore.

[Natenn]

Maby a system like "Mob pops claimed to a random person in its aggro range thats above a certain lvl" that way it's impossible for anyone to bot and claims get distributed accordingly. Like say if they did this to Fafnir and made minimum lvl 70. you bring 6 ppl, theres a total of 12 in his aggro range above Lv70 = you have a 50% chance it pops claimed to you. I think this is a good idea, just tweak it a bit ect. OR if you bring 6 ppl but 2 are Lv69 or less with 12 total aggro range but only 10 are 70+ = your PT has a 40% chance to claim 4/10 eligible in range.

[Sureal]

Well were all entitled to our opinion, heres my opinion: I play on PS2 only, i outclaimed bots plenty of times and i rarely got beat on SW/DI. bar kings you stand a better chance claiming legit then vs a bot, even then ive claimed more with PS2 then ppl botting did. I think forced pop NM are to easy to access and kill. All the FF games usually have several rare/hard to beat/great reward monsters, this 1 doesn't anymore.

lol, somehow i seriously doubt that

IF what you say is true, then why have bots in the first place, oh wait, i know, its cause you CANT outclaim bots on hnm's, true with the claim delay it made it easier and would happen from time to time, but um from "first hand experience", sorry but no, bots>ps2 claiming

[Vinc]

Maby a system like "Mob pops claimed to a random person in its aggro range thats above a certain lvl" that way it's impossible for anyone to bot and claims get distributed accordingly.

So you want content that forces you to bring massive amounts of mules and pretty much disregards linkshells without?

I agree with Vold, enough has been done for this style of play.

[Natenn]

lol, somehow i seriously doubt that

IF what you say is true, then why have bots in the first place, oh wait, i know, its cause you CANT outclaim bots on hnm's, true with the claim delay it made it easier and would happen from time to time, but um from "first hand experience", sorry but no, bots>ps2 claiming believe it or not skill is required to claim, i personally had no trouble claiming SW/DI 3 vs 1 because im alert wide scanning with several powder boots ready to go AND i know how to solo hold claim till my LS gets there. With kings it was hard but i can assure you PS2 can beat bots, i tagged Nidhogg vs 20+ ppl and the competition were notorious botters, 5 days later i tagged Nid again. But as i suggested even if they were to add a small pop area HNM just make it popped claimed to a random person above X level so ppl cant bring a bunch of low lvl mules to get claim. That being said i do prefer the zone wide pops like SW/DI.

[Sureal]

i dont believe it, and my 5-6 years of camping hnm's back me up, skill is not involved in claiming nidhogg, it takes

1. luck
2. good connection
3. no jp's (at least on bahamut it did for the longest time, im looking at you FI)
4. bots

[Natenn]

Well in my experience i guess im just lucky, even though i have also solo tagged NQ Behe vs a whole alliance simply because i knew "these guys are new, they are gonna spam to claim soon as it pops" so i just counted 3 seconds after i saw his red dot pop on my compass radar located above chat log then sure enough, i claimed. No luck involved that time. Id rather camp HNM then do the same stuff everyone else does, thats what made it special, not everyone would get it. HNM titles use to distinguish the real end game players from the average. Anyway im not gonna debate you over this, i just think Abyssea is to cater to casual players. The hardcore gamers need something to look forward to also. I just wanna hear from the developers on what could happen regarding the issue of HNM. /endrant :P

[Burmecia]

the only reason anyone camped those HNM's in the first place was because of the drops, if you actually liked sitting in one spot for 3 hours (or 72 for tiamat) then im sorry, you have other issues,

people that stayed in the game because of those aspects were there mainly to block other players from obtaining the gear, or get everyone in their ls all the gear from each mob (and because of absolutely horrendous drop rates i.e. d ring or ridill, people are still trying to get them)

force pop nm's are the way this game should have been since day one

I agree with what Sureal and Vold are saying here. My LS gave up on camping HNMs due to the fact that 3-4 linkshells would use bots to claim against everyone. As long as this game is going to have cheaters who use botting to gain the upperhand, I never want to see HNMs introduced with 24+ hour spawn times and 3 hour windows. I actually still really want forced pop on the current ones for people still working on their Black Belt (an lsmate has been stuck on adamantoise egg for a very long time now). :/

That being said, I absolutely LOVE the thrill of just fighting them. There's something just so cool about fighting a huge dragon! I would love for SE to release some new HNM-like monsters outside of abyssea just for the challenge and pure fun of it.

[Gwynplaine]

Challenging HNM like Pandemonium Warden can be kinda cool. Just so long as they don't ever repeat the mistake of creating completely freely spawned HNM that require camping and claiming in some way.

[skoof]

For the record it is not impossible for a PS2 user to claim over a bot. all a good bot does is detect the pop on server and stager the linkshells claim actions to cover as many times in pop window as possible. if Mr. PS2 hits it when claim shield drops he wins, if the bot hits it at the time shield drops bot wins.

Yes because of the more precise coverage and staggering of times bots have a huge advantage over the rest of the player base. However by no means is it impossible to do. IF the bot was a guaruntee they would just nab the pop through claim shield and that would be it. Since we can all see claim shield stopping the first couple casts from claiming we know that this is not the case.

[Yarly]

force pop nm's are the way this game should have been since day one

the game should also have a high chance to drop all the best gear from wild rabbits and other misc starter zone mobs.

this way all the new players can ding into their defending rings and black belts, right?

[Purraj]

Well were all entitled to our opinion, heres my opinion: I play on PS2 only, i outclaimed bots plenty of times and i rarely got beat on SW/DI. bar kings you stand a better chance claiming legit then vs a bot, even then ive claimed more with PS2 then ppl botting did. I think forced pop NM are to easy to access and kill. All the FF games usually have several rare/hard to beat/great reward monsters, this 1 doesn't anymore.

There is no opinion here, actually. This statement is worded to be taken as fact, not opinion. On that note, do not try to convince someone that you repeatedly outclaimed a bot program. We all know they exist, and we all know how effective they are. I myself have lost several HNMs to them over the years. They are programmed with algorithms that allow them to initiate a claim on the mob faster than human reflexes permit. Assuming a bot malfunctions or isn't setup properly you would have a standard chance at claiming a particular NM, but that is rare seeing as how people who buy bots normally don't allow for those mistakes. I hate bots, and so does SE, which is why they made them obsolete.

Second, you REALLY should stop trying to convince people that you have outclaimed bots several times, as this is a lie supported by two points:

1. Nearly the entire first paragraph of my reply.
2. You assume you know when someone had used or will use a bot, thus giving yourself credit for outclaiming it. I'd love for you to tell me the name of the idiots that would have repeatedly told you they were botting and then being all "Whoa dude, we bot and you totally beat us to that!"

Stop losing credibility by fishing for something that sounds believable.

[Sureal]

exactly

while you MAY have beat 1 bot, hnmls's have never, i repeat, in bold no less, NO HNMLS HAS EVER CAMPED HNM'S WITH ONLY ONE BOT

[Imakun]

HNMs camping needed to die in a fire a long time ago >_>
I loved my End-game LS, but when HNMs were due to pop in our time zone we just stood there doing nothing for the duration of the windows, most of the time getting nothing out of it and skipping other events witch could have actually helped us gear ourselves while at least moving around doing things.
How is camping fun? Claiming is fun?
What about actually fighting the damn thing? Yea, sure! I enjoyed battling HNMs but standing there for hours doing nothing is just retarded.
I heard people say "You can do something else while camping". Huh? Why would I want to do something else if I logged into the game in the first place?
Old HNMs system was stupid and outdated and should never see the light of the day again. Make new HNMs popped or even quested and make them hard to kill. Old HNMs weren't that much of a challenge, let's face it. Especially since they started rising the level cap.
I'm all for new giant stuff to kill, but everyone should have a chance at fighting them. Claiming wars have no place in this day and age of the game in my opinion.

Edit: Just to clarify.. yes, I really hated camping lol

[Defiledsickness]

lol well they still make you camp nms for the physical trials so i doubt they'll ever get rid of it. at this point its a part of history that behemoth and others pop when they do. cerberus is always up at least :P though i doubt anyone has ever camped stuff like YY Robe (just wait for maint :P). And sandworm is still good because the scorpion drops the White Talthum (1.5mil on my server). At least with a 99 cap when they make new HNM's they dont need long respawn timers, only to make them incredibly deadly. So claiming wont be the problem, surviving will ^^

[katoplepa]

HNM titles use to distinguish the real end game players from the average.

I'm not completely agree: HNM titles are to distinguish someone who CAN stay @ pc desk hours on hours waiting for a claim and maybe loose it because someone cheat, and for someone who put snooze in the middle of the night for wake up because Faf is in window... this is not "real" end game people... this is something for "don't forget your family, your school, your work" etc. ...

Pandemonium Warden or Absolute Virtue, are a way to demonstrate you are a real end game player anyway without the needs to lost your social life watching a monitor and spamming a macro like an idiot for hours...


force pop nm's are the way this game should have been since day one

^
this
and no need to drama, no need to cheat, no need to file.excel on forums with points, lot rights, presence, tier, or others things that are more like a work, and not a game...

my 2 cents.

[Alhanelem]

Any new HNM coming?



I sure hope not. HNMs and spending hours camping 30 minute windows such that all you could do was go afk for 29 minutes, be alert for 1, go afk another 29 minutes, it was just a huge waste of time. Anyone who thought that was fun seriously needs to re-examine what makes a game fun for them.

I did HNMs for a long time. I hated being in the middle of something or about to do something and then i see on LS "OMG TIAMAT POPPED EVERYONE HERE NOW!" only to rush over there and watch some LS spend 7 hours failing at killing it. I could have done something fun and productive for those 7 hours instead of hoping some other group would wipe.

[Sureal]

I sure hope not. HNMs and spending hours camping 30 minute windows such that all you could do was go afk for 29 minutes, be alert for 1, go afk another 29 minutes, it was just a huge waste of time. Anyone who thought that was fun seriously needs to re-examine what makes a game fun for them.

I did HNMs for a long time. I hated being in the middle of something or about to do something and then i see on LS "OMG TIAMAT POPPED EVERYONE HERE NOW!" only to rush over there and watch some LS spend 7 hours failing at killing it. I could have done something fun and productive for those 7 hours instead of hoping some other group would wipe.

so you've heard of Kazoku then lol

[Burmecia]

exactly

while you MAY have beat 1 bot, hnmls's have never, i repeat, in bold no less, NO HNMLS HAS EVER CAMPED HNM'S WITH ONLY ONE BOT

Yep. >.> And on my server some linkshells "buddied up" together because they used the same bot. It was entertaining to see them say they were teaming up because they were "friends," but in the beginning they hated each others guts lol. But once they both started using the same bot they got together to outclaim everyone else's bot... :P

I dunno, it's just sad. I don't want to see FF11 ever go down that drama-filled road once more. e_e; But again, would love forced pop HNMs. Some new ones outside of abyssea would be awesome. ^_^

[Ragmar]

There are two sides to this. The bot crowd and the non bot crowd. The question is simple SE ... where do you stand? Are you going to promote continued botting or are you going to create content which eliminates the most notorious aspect of this game?

When I started this game if you were found to be a botter you would be kicked from your LS, your future endevours were then so severly limited by your reputation that people often chose to start a new character on a new server. Inaction on the part of SE over the years made botting seem almost acceptable. Thankfully most of the cheaters went to FFXIV since their ability to bot claim force popped NMs wasnt as valuable anymore and all their "hard earned" gear became less epeenish. /Sadface. But if you bring back HNMs that are relavent and exploitable in the same manor then /farewell. I'm not going to waste years chasing gear that only those willing to cheat have real chances to obtain.

[Dethard]

A reason I would not like new HNM's like the old ones is the long re-spawn time. Everyone pays the same for the game and should have an opportunity to fight these mobs to obtain equipment or drops. Fair enough if they are difficult and you don't have the skill then you cant get the drops, but a HNM that pops once every 72 hours will only spawn approximately 122 times a year. I am not sure on server populations but say for example there are 5000 people on a server and everyone took a turn it would take over 40 years for everyone to have a chance at that HNM, effectively meaning majority of server have little or no chance of ever fighting the HNM let alone getting the drops.

These type of HNM's only serve to stoke the egos of elitists and promote cheating and drama, and I for one hope they do not implement any more of them. I would prefer to see more HNM's that required tactical fights with some difficulty that could be popped as required.

[Tempo]

I might be the only one but i want some hnms back at 99.

[Dazusu]

I might be the only one but i want some hnms back at 99.

I agree. I would love to see HNMs back at 99.

Make them spawn in a random zone from a selected region in the original zones so they can't be botted.

[Natenn]

That guy is right, there are two sides to this: The people who wan't everything handed to them and the people who want to play a game that has an actual challenge. HNM made the game exciting, if you like doing things where theres no competition or difficulty to it go play a game like My little pony or w/e. People running around in full Perle aren't endgame. I busted my butt getting all my kings gear/D ring/$ from SW and DI drops. Now all i see is quitters crying not to make new HNM with long windows because they were bad at claiming, so many ppl quit this game because HNM died out giving the competitive ppl nothing left to do, i know 5 ppl off the top of my head who would be back if HNM came back. I liked camping cause having the drops not many ppl had meant something. With abyssea things like Twilight gear are more common so theirs no prestige to them or those titles. I want things to be hard, not the easy boring stuff that abyssea has brought.
And i know ppl botted because enemy were on DS daily Purr

[Sasukeuchiha]

Hnms are stupis 24 hour pop nms need to be done away with all together. It just promots more botting and less fairness the hole system was stupid from the get go in my oppinion.

[Alhanelem]

That guy is right, there are two sides to this: The people who wan't everything handed to them and the people who want to play a game that has an actual challenge. HNM made the game exciting, if you like doing things where theres no competition or difficultyI'm sorry, but HNMs are not a challenge. Frustration and challenge are not the same thing, and there are challenges that aren't HNMs (and challenges that are big strong mobs, but you have control over when you fight them.

When you're in an HNM group, you always have to be prepared that at any moment, your plans for the day could be ruined because you're needed to help claim (not even help kill, really, just help claim) an HNM. So you go there. And you wait. And wait, and wait. That's what's really not fun, the waiting. You could be doing something more productive and/or fun with your time.

Plain and simple: 24hr and multi-day pops with half hour pop windows suck. Challenging NMs you pop when you want after collecting items needed to do so = much better.

People who don't like HNMs aren't asking for everything to be handed to them. They're simply looking for fun and challenge without the frustration aspect that HNMs have. We're playing a game. Games are supposed to be fun.

[Catsby]

It would be fun to see all the old HNMs at 100+ but the world spawn garbage has to go. Having a quest chain or something in order to get the trigger in each starter city would be awesome. Showing off how great you are to other LS is as simple as leader boards not bots.

[Natenn]

Thats my choice and what i chose to do. As many other ppl did, like i said: if you want easy content stay in abyssea. There will be new HNM, either 24hr+ pops or hard enough most ppl can't kill anyway. 21-24hr pops were nothing. Id be elated to do it again. every FF had HNM at endgame 7: The weapons. 8: Omega. 9: Ozma 10: The big thing in calm lands arena. 11: ??? 12: Dragon in Collaseum that takes hours to kill. 13: Titan trials. Trend dictates there will be a new hard HNM in 11. Hope it pops once a week in any zone.

[Sureal]

world pop hnm's are dumb and if you like them then you never camped, end of story

[Natenn]

World pops are for real gamers.

[Sureal]

and by gamers you mean botters right

[Starcade]

Is it really still competition when people bot? We enjoy the competition aspect of the game, but when people cheat their way to claims the system no longer works, and is no longer worth keeping around. It only serves to make botting hardcore LSs rich and I think the game has done enough for their ego over the past 9 years. There are severe problems with a MMO when players cannot progress fairly in the end game and must resort to paying cheaters for the items they want.

With that said, if for some reason SE feels they need to go the HNM route again, I want to see zone wide pops to make it impossible to bot.

Again:


"Fraud is generally defined in the law as an intentional misrepresentation of material existing fact made by one person to another with knowledge of its falsity and for the purpose of inducing the other person to act, and upon which the other person relies with resulting injury or damage. Fraud may also be made by an omission or purposeful failure to state material facts, which nondisclosure makes other statements misleading."


Listening, Square-Enix? Because that is what you are doing when you refuse to deal with bots, Windower, and all the other BS which has made your game a cheaters' paradise.

It almost gets to the point that you understand that this conduct is socially necessary for progression, and you sanction it by refusing to further gut endgame shells that you know should be gutted.

For this reason, I want no further HNMs in this game. There's too much freaking elitism as it is.

[Starcade]

and by gamers you mean botters right

No, he means "botters" = "real gamers".

They care not for integrity or fairness. They got the pop, you didn't. So us playing fair, in their eyes, can go FOAD, HAND, and STFU.

[Natenn]

even if ppl didn't bot you would still cry "bots!!!" Don't bash hnm just cause you couldn't tough it out.

[Orson]

You're comparing other FF's "endgame" to the haijin style of gaming that world spawn HNMs were? You do realize every world spawn HNM's deterrent was never really the difficultly of the monsters except for very early in their releases? The main deterrent to regular people to do HNMs was the fact that you had to live your freaking life around the time line of the game. You do remember that the other FFs allowed you to pick up and play whenever and had a freaking pause button!?

World spawn HNMs with out a shadow of a doubt were the worst thing ever added to this game. What made it worse, was and apparently is still, the inability of egotistical haijins like yourself to realize it as such. Pathetically perceiving that out claiming a group and denying them the opportunity to experience the content they were paying for was some how a victory for you. The fact that SE for the longest time refused to fix world spawn HNMs or out date them was one of the big reasons many people got tired and quit. They alleviated sky, sea, dynamis, etc. bottle necking because of the high influx of high level players into endgame. Yet they stubbornly refused to admit that HNMs needed the same treatment. This caused the game's gear and focus to stay stagnated on a pathetic game of whack a mole. Einherjar really came too little, too late. A lack luster effort to try and appease the majority of the community yet still keeping gear from half a decade old HNMs the best. If SE repeats their mistakes and puts the best gear in the game on a few 21+ hr HNMs that will be the nail in the coffin for this game.

Edit: Also don't give me, "oh you just didn't like HNMs because you sucked at them." I've beaten everything in this freaking game that matters and out claimed botters. Yes, you can do it if they suck at linking or don't pay attention their radar aps but when it happens it's because you got lucky. The small amount of dedication it takes to watch a screen every few minutes is minuscule in comparison to the fact that you can't actively do world spawns without forgoing a combination of a full time job, school, RL friends, and/or healthy romantic relationship.

[Natenn]

then quit QQ

[Runespider]

If they add new HNM put them in BNCM arenas, they can't control botters and they simply became required apps to participate. They can't even hide mobs properly, everyone runs around able to see the dead mobs in FFXI.

In a game where there are proper things in place to stop botting competitive spawns would be amazing and adds to the excitment, I loved HNM till my server was merged with another heavy botting one but after that it just became the best bots win as was the case on other busier servers. If the devs can't compete then they need to find other ways to offer content and it's been proven they can't.

[Juxtaposition]

then quit QQ

You're the one crying that you can't use your bot to control the endgame anymore, you quit.

[PandyTwi]

while I've never been one for competition for NM's, mainly because I really hate losing, I will agree that I do want a new HNM of some kind. reskin's of khim, cerb, and whatnot are just getting a bit old for me. a small part of me wants to see a giant, demonic, wyrm-sized bunny rabbit. but I think that's just from my first experience starting off the game. tried to fight one of the stronger bunny's in the back of Ronfaure Dx. pretty sure someone from Bastok wouldn't mind seeing a massive bee of some kind.....or maybe they would. they've already done a really big mandy and a giant worm. hell, I've not seen any snake-type mobs in this game at all, unless pieste's count. anyone else got any fancy ideas on some giant god-slayer looking monster that we could fight?, think we've squeezed all we can out of dragons since Shinryu.

[Ragmar]

That guy is right, there are two sides to this: The people who wan't everything handed to them and the people who want to play a game that has an actual challenge. HNM made the game exciting, if you like doing things where theres no competition or difficulty to it go play a game like My little pony or w/e. People running around in full Perle aren't endgame. I busted my butt getting all my kings gear/D ring/$ from SW and DI drops. Now all i see is quitters crying not to make new HNM with long windows because they were bad at claiming, so many ppl quit this game because HNM died out giving the competitive ppl nothing left to do, i know 5 ppl off the top of my head who would be back if HNM came back. I liked camping cause having the drops not many ppl had meant something. With abyssea things like Twilight gear are more common so theirs no prestige to them or those titles. I want things to be hard, not the easy boring stuff that abyssea has brought.
And i know ppl botted because enemy were on DS daily Purr

Whats funny is you keep talking like HNM had some level of challenge. THE ONLY CHALLENGE HNM EVER PRESENTED WAS CLAIMING AGAINST BOTS. If you found any other aspect of HNMs a challenge then I feel bad for you. KA, Argus, VE, LL, Hoo Mjuu the Torrent just to name a few all had the same level of challenge during the RMT/bot glory days. You had a nice run. SE let you rape your fellow players for a number of years without consequence.

You're not asking for any kind of challenge you're asking SE to keep in place a system that rewards cheaters far above anyone else. You say others who dont like world spawn bot competition should go play something else but its your crowd that couldnt handle FFXI the way it was designed. You had to break the rules to get ahead because you lacked the ability to do so otherwise or at the very least the integrity to do so without cheating. You're asking for the dev team to help you feel better about yourself through continued content that rewards only those who refuse to abide by the ToS. ??? is your new notorious monster buddy. Don't like it? QQ quit.

[Sureal]

hey, i will be the first to admit, the first time i fought fafnir i was like "OMG IM TANKING FAFNIR"

then after the 150th kill i was like "heh, 8 mins, we can do better next time"



if you SERIOUSLY consider the world pop hnm's to be "hard" and "challenging" then your "hnmls" fails at life and should stop camping in the first place, wait, are you in Kazoku, cause to kazoku adamantoise was serious business

[Orson]

then quit QQ

No matter how you cry I'm not going quit. Especially since the game is pretty awesome right now. You have start realizing you're the minority here and your ideas are terrible.

In fact you should probably just start your own professional whack a mole league. You can call your friends randomly at all times of the day and night to play but only allow them to play for a minute every half hr. People can pitch in $15 a month to buy sweet prizes like hoodies, hats, and bo staves. Of course you only have 1 prize a month for every 10 friends (only giving them 1 if they come enough.) Damn that sounds awesome, oh wait...

[Sureal]

No matter how you cry I'm not going quit. Especially since the game is pretty awesome right now. You have start realizing you're the minority here and your ideas are terrible.

In fact you should probably just start your own professional whack a mole league. You can call your friends randomly at all times of the day and night to play but only allow them to play for a minute every half hr. People can pitch in $15
a month to buy sweet prizes like hoodies, hats, and bo staves. Of course you only have 1 prize a month for every 10 friends (only giving them 1 if they come enough.) Damn that sounds awesome, oh wait...


more like, you have one person that gets a prize 4 months in a row while everyone else gets the shaft

[Natenn]

I meant "Then quit QQing" not quit the game. I never botted, don't spread lies when you don't even know me. All im trying to get across is this: Make something competitive for us to do, theres no glory to be had in abyssea, everything in there is a joke to kill. Im sorry if you took it the wrong way but up to this day the only competitive thing to do was HNM. Theres no real reason for LS to exist anymore outside socializing, with the exception of PW/AV(drops outdated anyway), everything can be done with 3-6 ppl at 90. And if something is to easy whats to brag about? Nothing, i made a Kanaggi solo, big whoop 200+ ppl on server have 1 to. I want to beat ppl at something , i have always loved competitive things.

[Dazusu]

Personally I love HNM, I love the competetive nature of them.

If you don't, and you prefer Abyssea - that's fantastic. No one is asking to take away your easymode. Infact, I hope they continue to add more of it. But for those of us who do love to be tortured, cater for us too. You don't want to be apart of it, then don't. No one is forcing you.

I'd be quite content if they added new HNM that was a challenge to claim, and even more difficult to fight; even if they dropped items which were readily available in Abyssea.

What the Abyssea fanbois don't seem to get is that most of us aren't after an NM which spawns every 21-24 hours that drops some uber fantastic best of the best item that only one person will get once a week. No, what we're after is a challenging fight and a competetive claim (this can be across several zones to alleviate any chance of botting).

For those of you who want disproportionate rewards in comparison to the difficulty of the fight, you will have Abyssea and your Abyssea-Dynamis matrix; for the what, 10% of the player base who do enjoy HNM, would it hurt to add one or two in? Just like DI and SW were added a couple years ago.

[Orson]

I meant "Then quit QQing" not quit the game. I never botted, don't spread lies when you don't even know me. All im trying to get across is this: Make something competitive for us to do, theres no glory to be had in abyssea, everything in there is a joke to kill. Im sorry if you took it the wrong way but up to this day the only competitive thing to do was HNM. Theres no real reason for LS to exist anymore outside socializing, with the exception of PW/AV(drops outdated anyway), everything can be done with 3-6 ppl at 90. And if something is to easy whats to brag about? Nothing, i made a Kanaggi solo, big whoop 200+ ppl on server have 1 to. I want to beat ppl at something , i have always loved competitive things.

I enjoy a challenge but camping isn't challenging. I think adding some tougher NMs would be fine but the reward to time spent ratio as it stands is very good right now. If they introduce new HNMs they should not only have gear drops but have a point, badge, seal system that rewards players cumulatively. Even if it's a relatively slow process of earning the gear from the points at least you are gaining progress and you won't be the person unlucky enough to random poorly consistently.

At this point in the game how do you make challenging HNMs? SE is already riding the monster damage output vs the player's ability to mitigate and heal that damage on a razors edge. There's very few ways to make a NM harder without making it nigh impossible or require silly gimmicks like AV. If you do make a NM like that then you better be able to kill it otherwise most people will write it off out of annoyance. Making groups throw more people at a HNM is a bad idea too. Players do not want to be reliant on a full alliance to play any more. Smaller groups are the way people have been doing everything for the last 2-3 yrs. Definitely any worth while LS wasn't tending to need more than like 6-8 people for the majority of events and NMs.

Finally for people care about e-peen, I really wish would just straight up leave the game. Most people do want the best gear for many reasons but just to want the best gear so you can rub it in peoples faces is an egotistical attitude. It's the poor sport that wins and then bad mouths the competition and professes their superiority. No one likes that person but because they have the anonymity online they seem to forget how foolish it makes them look. Fair competition is fun but when the game is all about who has the most free time, the most friends, and best the bots I have a hard believing that's fair. Odds are if competition is your main draw to this game you're either solely focused on that far too much or you just don't have the skills to play true competitive games like RTS, FPS, Sports, etc.

@Dazusu
You can't cater to both crowds because as our friend Natenn shows us the whole reason that people liked the world spawns was the bottle neck it created on the best gear in the game. People who enjoy abyssea and other events like that tend to hate the idea of other players preventing them from getting the best gear. So what then, you add the best gear to both? You really think that'll make people happy? It's possible but automatically the world spawn fans will spout off saying well we have to camp these NMs like hardcore so the droprates should be worse off the stuff that you can just fight any time. In turn that'll piss off the people who prefer instanced/triggered content because they'll be pushed to go fight both because the droprates are far better on the NMs. So it's just lose lose.

Also you can't prevent botting. Maybe in theory you can but SE has put little to no effort into stopping bots. Bots progressively got better and more common. If you think that you have an advantage over a botter for stuff like DI/SW then no one has explained to you what some of these programs can do. POS hacking and other blatant cheating aside you can set up your system to alert you the second a monster pops from any where in the zone. Even if you're a fully leveled Rng avidly hitting your widescan you're probably at a disadvantage. Everything that you do that you consider skillful can easily be replicated and probably done better by a program for the most part. Even if SE did take botting extremely seriously it would almost be impossible to stop.

[Dazusu]

If you think that you have an advantage over a botter for stuff like DI/SW then no one has explained to you what some of these programs can do.


You're right, a legitimate player will never outclaim DI/SW vs packet ID scanner, or staggered bots. I don't need anyone to explain to me how they work.

I enjoy the claiming competition and the challenging/rare fights.

There's absolutely no reason both types of player can't be catered for. It was done in the past, it can be done now (Kings : Salvage, as an example).

It's evident that some people really detest the HNM/old end-game scene, and that's fine. It's definitely not for everyone. For those who do enjoy it, letting it die is a shame. Again - no one is asking for Abyssea content to be removed, or for less of such accessible content. Keep it coming; but throwing in the odd HNM every now and then isn't going to hurt anyone.

MMOs in general are designed for people with varying levels of free time - and content available should match that. If you don't have many hours to play - then there should be easily accessible content available. If you are fortunate enough to have more time to play - then there should be tougher content available too.

It doesn't come down to "not having skill to play an FPS", that's just silly. Is it really difficult to believe that some people just enjoy that type of HNM content? We all have our own tastes, likes and dislikes. Don't impose yours upon others.

[Michaeluk]

hey, i will be the first to admit, the first time i fought fafnir i was like "OMG IM TANKING FAFNIR"

then after the 150th kill i was like "heh, 8 mins, we can do better next time"



if you SERIOUSLY consider the world pop hnm's to be "hard" and "challenging" then your "hnmls" fails at life and should stop camping in the first place, wait, are you in Kazoku, cause to kazoku adamantoise was serious business

If you are talking about kaz on quetz i was one of the sack holders in there when Tony was around, and we never camped ada before d4. Also i hope they bring hnm back because you're tears are delicious.

[Sureal]

kaz was on quetz cause they got tired of being the joke of bahamut, ask ANYONE on bahamut, i guarantee they will all say the samething

and im gonna go out on a limb here and say the only reason you didnt camp ada was because tony had everything he wanted from aspid, ask all his former minions from bahamut



and for all of you saying you want a "challange" go fight AV, or PW, world pop hnm's are a joke and have been for years

[Natenn]

This Daz guy basically trying to tell me im a bad person for being competitive, i suppose everyone who plays sports are to cause theres always trash talk in something competitive, its a game RELAX. The pop warner type score a TD but get 15 yard penalty on kick off if you celebrate crap really irritates me.

As for never being able to beat a bot on SW/DI, i fought against at least 4 or 5 different LS and positive at least 2 botted since they had ppl where it died last waitin on death spot to move. You can talk botters up all you want i never lost to em, only LS who had ppl who could beat me was Kupo. (Pandemonium days) I never saw botters or heard of em using pos hack to get to NM first, any time i saw it claimed they would die in seconds cause they couldn't hold w/o shadowbind. Send those botters you QQ about to Asura id be happy to camp vs them.

[Dazusu]

If they had people where it died, they were doing it wrong.

Secondly, no one said you were a bad person for being competitive. That's part of why HNM were great - they encouraged competitive play. Good thing. Learn to read.

Finally who is QQing about botters?

[Sureal]

This Daz guy basically trying to tell me im a bad person for being competitive, i suppose everyone who plays sports are to cause theres always trash talk in something competitive, its a game RELAX. The pop warner type score a TD but get 15 yard penalty on kick off if you celebrate crap really irritates me.

As for never being able to beat a bot on SW/DI, i fought against at least 4 or 5 different LS and positive at least 2 botted since they had ppl where it died last waitin on death spot to move. You can talk botters up all you want i never lost to em, only LS who had ppl who could beat me was Kupo. (Pandemonium days) I never saw botters or heard of em using pos hack to get to NM first, any time i saw it claimed they would die in seconds cause they couldn't hold w/o shadowbind. Send those botters you QQ about to Asura id be happy to camp vs them.


lol, cool story bro


you know what, you should sell your services, i mean the makers of all those bots were selling them, DUDE YOU COULD BE RICH, i mean with your mad botter beating skills, oh and by the way, since you sincerly believe that you can beat bots whenever you like, i have some land id like to sell you

[Dazusu]

lol, cool story bro

I like you.

[Natenn]

well not on SW/DI anyway, on small pop area mobs yea but it broke even about. Don't be emo just cause you couldn't claim. I think your just bashing HNM cause you don't wanna lose. Put the haterade away bro.

[Sureal]

lol, get over yourself, i was in one of the top hnmls's on bahamut for a very long time, Apkallu Vendetta, i fought everything enough, and there was no challenge in any of them after the first kill, and trust me, i claimed enough, and ill be the first to admit, i botted, cause you know what, YOU CANNOT RELIABLY BEAT A BOT, let me say this one more time, with emphasis, YOU CANNOT RELIABLY BEAT A BOT, and one more thing, ive heard the, im on ps2, excuse many many times by people who, /GASP, BOT, so im going to take all your posts and narrow them down


"/QQ I BOT AND NOW MY BOTTING DAYS ARE OVER AND I HAVE NOTHING TO DO ANYMORE BECAUSE I DONT HAVE ANY REAL SKILL IN THIS GAME BEYOND BEATING FAFNIR"


world pop nm's, as has been said over and over in this thread, are dumb, they do nothing but reward people who bot, anyone who says different is an idiot.

fighting these nm's was fun, the first few times, then it just got old and tired, being in an hnmls that camped everything i know firsthand, you have no game to play, you have no time to do anything for yourself, your camping hnm's AT least 9 hours a day, cause we all know when faf will pop, last window as always, you want a challenge, like i said, world pop hnms are not it, AV, PW, hell even dynamis lord was more of a "challenge" than any of the hnm's and that was only because you missed a stun and you were done, you miss a stun on faf and you can still kill him without thinking about it


one more time

WORLD POP HNM'S ARE DUMB AND YOU ARE DUMB FOR WANTING MORE OF THEM

kthxbai

[Orson]

You're right, a legitimate player will never outclaim DI/SW vs packet ID scanner, or staggered bots. I don't need anyone to explain to me how they work.

I enjoy the claiming competition and the challenging/rare fights.

There's absolutely no reason both types of player can't be catered for. It was done in the past, it can be done now (Kings : Salvage, as an example).

It's evident that some people really detest the HNM/old end-game scene, and that's fine. It's definitely not for everyone. For those who do enjoy it, letting it die is a shame. Again - no one is asking for Abyssea content to be removed, or for less of such accessible content. Keep it coming; but throwing in the odd HNM every now and then isn't going to hurt anyone.

MMOs in general are designed for people with varying levels of free time - and content available should match that. If you don't have many hours to play - then there should be easily accessible content available. If you are fortunate enough to have more time to play - then there should be tougher content available too.

It doesn't come down to "not having skill to play an FPS", that's just silly. Is it really difficult to believe that some people just enjoy that type of HNM content? We all have our own tastes, likes and dislikes. Don't impose yours upon others.

Ok so let's see would you be fine with them putting in an extremely hard monster that you camped for 1-24 hrs with no spawn window? Then they make it so that if you fought that NM you can't fight the same NM that is instanced that you can pop every day? I'm talking the exact same drops and the exact same challenge just one spawns and one is instanced. You could put out the hardest NM in the game that had a 1-72 hr window and despawned after being up for 3 hrs but if it dropped the same gear as something that took you 1-72 hrs to farm a pop for you'd think this was unfair.

No, you don't like that? Of course you don't because the heart of your competition isn't about fighting over claims it comes from the wish to feel elite by getting the best gear that no else has access to. Sure maybe you couldn't spend quite as much time farming other portions of the game but it didn't block you from enjoying other content. Some players simply just do not have the time to camp stupid NMs that have obscene spawn schedules and putting the best gear on them is a slap in the face to those players.

Basically it's like I said you can't cater to both sides. Everyone actually enjoys playing the game as opposed to watching other people play the game. It will be impossible to find a balanced middle ground between these 2 ways of playing. Given that the majority of players will never get to take advantage of a truly bottlenecked HNM system you have more upset than happy players. So unless you can come up with something that is fair to the rest of the community world spawn style HNMs will never be popular with the majority. If SE does bring them back they will have a massive outrage on their hands to satisfy a tiny group of players.

As for it being about competition. You should realize, that as an individual you are not important when it comes to competing for HNMs. If you really have been claiming the majority of NMs it isn't skill. You're either extremely lucky, the rest of your server sucks, and/or you cheat like crazy. The HNMs you're talking about are just a contest of who has the most free time, the most friends, and the best bots. Argue all you want that it takes skill but you're just deluding yourself. The only thing that might take some skill is holding the NM until the mass army gets their so you can kill it before it rages.

If you actually were looking for challenge then you'd play real sports or games that actually relied on you having a quick reaction time like RTS, PVP, and FPS games. This game is terrible for PVP experiences all it has is the ability to stop other players from enjoying content. Which in most other MMOs is considered griefing!

[Natenn]

You just admitted to botting, breaking ToS on SE official site, great job sir. Apkallu Vendetta? never heard of em. Bar AV i killed everything legitimately when the cap was 75. You need to calm down, all im sayin is id like some new content to compete for. You don't see me all up in abyssea threads damning them do you? Anything worth having is worth fighting for, otherwise everyone would have same gear ect.. Don't sit there and QQ about fairness and then come out and tell me you yourself bot. see: hypocrisy.

[Orson]

Simply answer me this Natenn. Would you be ok with competitive HNMs that had the same armor as instanced/triggered counterparts? Keep in mind that to be fair the time it takes to camp and fight the NMs would be approximately set at about the same either way you pursue. Then after that ask yourself. Outside of hardcore players that will just end up doing both for faster drops will anyone be doing the competitive HNMs?

[Alhanelem]

GREIFING. not GREIVING. Two totally different words with toally different meanings.

[Natenn]

Well there buddy, that defeats the purpose no? maby give the world pop one the /EX drop?

[Tamarsamar]

Well there buddy, that defeats the purpose no? maby give the world pop one the /EX drop?

"The purpose" being what? HNM monopolization, the thing that we're all trying to avoid?

[Orson]

Well there buddy, that defeats the purpose no? maby give the world pop one the /EX drop?

And there you have it the true reason you want "competition."

[Natenn]

Whats wrong with wanting competition? I fight against third party tool users, i fight the good fight, easy out = no thanks.

@ Surreal, believe what ever makes you feel better friend. You do you, And im gonna do me. Don't camp new content if/when it comes if you dont like it, I'm sure they'll add stuff that appeals to your interests.

[Sureal]

only one r please, thanks

[Denabond]

I neither like or hate HNMs, but the general consensus is they suck. With the things are going, SE would rather appeal to the masses rather then a few hardcore players. I could be wrong and they add in HNMs next update, but i wouldn't count on it.

[Sureal]

one thing i have yet to see mentioned, who is holding you back from camping fafhogg/kb/aspid/tiamat, you want you hnm's they are still there

you can get your ls and have claim wars, you can have one of them bot and you can outclaim them and rub it in and be all like "I BEAT BOTTERS ON MY PS2" and no one will care

[Natenn]

/facepalm
whatever dood lol. I hope they add new set of kings or something at 99. You can QQ about the idea all you want. You just wanna have the last word in.

[Fondle]

one thing i have yet to see mentioned, who is holding you back from camping fafhogg/kb/aspid/tiamat, you want you hnm's they are still there

you can get your ls and have claim wars, you can have one of them bot and you can outclaim them and rub it in and be all like "I BEAT BOTTERS ON MY PS2" and no one will care

Some people already have A:hands and W:Body and hauticlaires, so what incentive do we have to continue going to those outdated monsters though we enjoyed the content while it was still relevant

[Loir]

Some people already have A:hands and W:Body and hauticlaires, so what incentive do we have to continue going to those outdated monsters though we enjoyed the content while it was still relevant
The same incentive to enjoy outdated concepts such as contested world spawns with day-long respawn times

[Orson]

OMG lmao that sig is absolutely perfect for that post my good sir.

[Dazusu]

Stuff

You just took what I said and twisted it about several different ways to make it sound absurd.

They could make a world spawn that pops every 5 minutes after death. That's accessible, no?

At what point did I say I wanted to spend 1-24 hours, or 1-72 hours camping a HNM?

For the players that don't have "time to camp stupid HNMs", there exists 9 whole zones of Abyssea. Fantastic!

What you're saying is (I'm paraphrasing you understand): "There shouldn't be any content that I don't agree with, or have time to do myself."

[Sureal]

having world pop hnm's is broken, no matter what you do to it, if you have them spawn in the wild every 2 mins, there will be a ls that bots every claim, end of story

i really dont get why people are so against force pop nm's, the only, i repeat, THE ONLY thing you are "losing" is the claim battle, you still get the challenge of the fight, and /gasp, you actually get to fight, instead of standing in one spot for 3 hours hoping you didnt just waste your day, this game is not just for endgame players, its for everyone, some level 15 war newb pays the same money that you pay to play, why shouldnt they get a chance to experience everything, what makes you better than him, me, or anyone else, world pop hnm's advocate a distintion between players, those who bot and those who dont (and those who claim everything on ps2)

the first time i ever saw someone running around with a koenig cuirass i still remember to this day, i started playing at pc launch waaaaay back when, so when i got to jeuno the first time it was all level 40ish characters and such, prolly 2 weeks after i got to jeuno i saw a japanese player named Cobra wearing a koenig cuirass and i about drooled on myself, it took me a while longer to get to 75 and to get into a ls that actually attempted hnm's, but getting to camps we soon found out that a japanese ls fantastic impromptu basically had a complete stranglehold on all things endgame, this lasted for years, because not only did they have the best bots, but of course the had the ping as well from being in japan, this got incredibly frustrating, it wasnt until i was in a ls that said to hell with it, we want this gear too, that we did what we had to, we all got ps2's..., wait, thats wrong lol, like i said, we did what we had to, but we still couldnt get a steady claim rate until FI broke completely, literally 4-5 years of complete domination in endgame, bahamut was, being the first server online, very heavily comtrolled by japanese players, this was not fun, and put a deep resentment in me towards a few select players

i will be the first to admit that in the real world there are people that you just do not like, but this is a game, you should not literally hate people just because of what they are doing, THIS IS A GAME, i pay my money to do everything in this game, unless you want to contact SE and ask them to have some players pay less than you so you can have access to parts of the game that others do not, world pop hnm's need to die in a fire

sorry if thats a tad incoherent, its 8 in the morning

[Loir]

I feel bad for you guys from bahamut. We had an oldschool member that was with us for a couple months before vanishing back to WoW and the stories he would tell of bahamut in its infancy were far worse than anything I had personally experienced on Asura. Between your JP dominance than the later UAE shells I would hear about I kinda have pity for ya. Though granted like yourself I was and still in one of those LS's that took beyond the normal means to get those claims for drops and I have spent my time in the aery, dom, VoS, and pre-pandy merge through the past zones doing all forms of world spawns.

The trend in this MMO and what seems to be shown in others is less of the creation of the contested world spawns and more the ability to allow everyone equal access regardless of when their play schedule allows for. It worked for EQ AC and AO but that was almost a decade ago and the greater masses of players in the MMO market are sitting between casual and dedicated with a small hardcore fanbase. I really doubt a complany these days is going to go out of their way and re-alienate the larger fanbase to appease the few.

By no means am I personally against whatever current end-game SE decides to give us post 90 as already I am more than blindly ablidged to anything they give us be it another 3 king world spawn scenario or abyssea-esque time/reward system. Just stating that world-constested spawns are a dinosaur of MMOs, just as much as the holy-trinity of classes DD/healer/Tank. Though thank god the mindset of most of the community these days is to blend that dd and tank.

[Sureal]

god, i completely forgot about Sisteforsek, or sister*bleep* lol, god they were horrid, they just did not care at all, bought characters, had all the bots, charaters got banned, GO BUY ANOTHER, and good lord were they terrible, wiping to fafnir was a reoccuring theme with them

[Loir]

For asura we either drove the JPs out with our heavy NA linkshells with bots or they really had all the drops from those mobs. Will and Armada were the only JPs worth a damn. Will only camped if their members needed something and Armada were tools. Altimus was the guy that joined us for a bit. Not sure if his name is known much these days. Though he might be back playing on bahamut now.

[Sureal]

lol, yeah he is, he was in Apkallu Vendetta with me

[Natenn]

All this talk about unbeatable botters gettin me excited i wanna fight em to

[Orson]

You just took what I said and twisted it about several different ways to make it sound absurd.

They could make a world spawn that pops every 5 minutes after death. That's accessible, no?

At what point did I say I wanted to spend 1-24 hours, or 1-72 hours camping a HNM?

For the players that don't have "time to camp stupid HNMs", there exists 9 whole zones of Abyssea. Fantastic!

What you're saying is (I'm paraphrasing you understand): "There shouldn't be any content that I don't agree with, or have time to do myself."

I didn't twist anything around you guys said you wanted old style world HNMs. I explained as to why they didn't work in the past and gave a rebuttal as to why world spawn HNMs are a bad idea and not really competitive. If you think having the best only on world spawns then you don't have a leg to stand on. Also look at what Natenn has been saying there's no way some one like him would be satisfied with SE adding like 15 HNMs that spawned all over the world on 5 minute intervals. Nobody else would either because unless they all had the same drops you'd have next to an impossible task to get what you wanted. Try again though maybe you're close to figuring some good system.

[Sureal]

I didn't twist anything around you guys said you wanted old style world HNMs. I explained as to why they didn't work in the past and gave a rebuttal as to why world spawn HNMs are a bad idea and not really competitive. If you think having the best only on world spawns then you don't have a leg to stand on. Also look at what Natenn has been saying there's no way some one like him would be satisfied with SE adding like 15 HNMs that spawned all over the world on 5 minute intervals. Nobody else would either because unless they all had the same drops you'd have next to an impossible task to get what you wanted. Try again though maybe you're close to figuring some good system.

I KNOW, HOW ABOUT FORCE POP HNM'S


just saying

[Natenn]

Or we can jusy buy things like D ring from an NPC for 1 gil, that would be right up your alley!

[Denabond]

Or we can jusy buy things like D ring from an NPC for 1 gil, that would be right up your alley!
I'm sure all the lazy ppl would rejoice if that happened, but seriously though you make it sound like Force pop NMs are so easy that a lvl 1 can solo it or something.

[Sureal]

the only "challenge" he wants is for claim, once its popped it may as well be a rarab, just so long as he wins claim with his super ps2

[Riko]

This game lacks competition and rivalry since HNMs stopped getting camped. For me that was the most exciting part of this game, beating the other Linkshells to claim something. You get a sense of pride claiming over others and also being able to kill whatever you claimed in a decent manner and pace with your Linkshell. But maybe this is just me, heh. I miss old times.

[Catsby]

This game lacks competition and rivalry since HNMs stopped getting camped. For me that was the most exciting part of this game, beating the other Linkshells to claim something. You get a sense of pride claiming over others and also being able to kill whatever you claimed in a decent manner and pace with your Linkshell. But maybe this is just me, heh. I miss old times.

The problem is that the competitive aspects of the game were never developed upon and aspects that were never intended to be competitive became that way for the wrong reasons. The developers probably never expected hundreds of players standing around in dragon's aery during the spawn window

In my opinion world spawns wouldn't have been as much of a problem if the rage function worked better. i.e monster spawns however many hours after death and rages for a random amount of time after spawn .

[Loir]

I am pretty sure they expected exactly that to happen and either were empathic to the people unable to partake in said fights or did not want to further tweak that aspect so that certain pieces of gear would have that higher pedestal to the community.

[Manicora]

Well I for 1 want to kill every NM in game, beat all missions/quest get all jobs to max level and Then get banned, im not sure why you want any New HNM's but why not have a timer like Dyna where you cant get claim on another HNM/NM within 72 hours as a group. Get nq Behemoth as a Pt of 6, kill it see u again in 3 days. I like the pop idea but even so not every LS can kill KB NID or Tiamat without having 18+ there, hell most lvl 90 players who are less than 2 years in game Dont even know how Kirin is. Let them get Kills on those NM's 1st before u talk about New HNM's. But if they do make new ones, Let them be as hard or harder than PW and AV were at 75. give them 30 min Timer before d-pop give them Total AOE like CC/KB/Nid/Aspid etc. Give them ZONE draw in, Give them everything that makes you mad just so some crybaby noob cant beat it without Learning how to play. BTW still havent killed Tiamat or Vtra with 6 ppl, I got alot to learn.m <o^o> m

[Michaeluk]

BTW still havent killed Tiamat or Vtra with 6 ppl, I got alot to learn.m <o^o> m

Suck less, people were doing that at 75

[Orson]

I am pretty sure they expected exactly that to happen and either were empathic to the people unable to partake in said fights or did not want to further tweak that aspect so that certain pieces of gear would have that higher pedestal to the community.

Actually SE devs specifically have stated they never anticipated that HNMs were going to be camped the way they were. The devs were actually kind of upset that people were taking the haijin approach to the NMs. That's why I'm guessing they tried to make it harder to camp NMs by adding new ones with longer windows and varied pop areas. They also said basically that they had wanted HNMs to be found or discovered through exploration. If you explored deep into dungeons then you might luck out on finding the NMs and being able to kill them. It's true that they wanted some of the gear that was put on these NMs to stay exceedingly rare. They just didn't anticipate how many of us were willing to waste a huge amount hrs camping every day for the best gear.

[Glitch]

I personally do not miss camping HNMs for hour on end and I hope they never bring back those types of things. Uber powerful force popped NMs with really good gear drops is certainly the way to go.

[Loir]

Actually SE devs specifically have stated they never anticipated that HNMs were going to be camped the way they were. The devs were actually kind of upset that people were taking the haijin approach to the NMs. That's why I'm guessing they tried to make it harder to camp NMs by adding new ones with longer windows and varied pop areas. They also said basically that they had wanted HNMs to be found or discovered through exploration. If you explored deep into dungeons then you might luck out on finding the NMs and being able to kill them. It's true that they wanted some of the gear that was put on these NMs to stay exceedingly rare. They just didn't anticipate how many of us were willing to waste a huge amount hrs camping every day for the best gear.

Stating that it wasn't their intention and then implementing the same concept with longer wait times is even less of a constructive way to cancel out the same effect to the player bases approach to camping if I am remember the correct progression of when that Q&A was done. The lack of any real creative change to the King camp even to this day still has my thoughts of a more empathetic outlook regardless of original concept.

The only progressive world spawn change was WoTG but with the in-dredged mindset of end game communities you still had shells camping the 3-whywon'tcampaignendinthatonezone amount of hours for the pops.

[Sureal]

there was quite a while where the devs werent exactly the most intelligent of folks, short bus window lickers even (*cough*AV*cough*)

but they seem to have come around, very happy with how things are now

NO MAS WORLD POP HNM'S.... and stuff

[Starcade]

exactly

while you MAY have beat 1 bot, hnmls's have never, i repeat, in bold no less, NO HNMLS HAS EVER CAMPED HNM'S WITH ONLY ONE BOT

You hear that, Square-Enix???

(And that's not an accusation to you personally...)

See the second half of my sig.

[klops]

the challenge should be in the fight, not the claim.

nonetheless, if you want a competitive fix, play sc2. the competitive mmo is a dying genre.

[Ethereal]

I agree, they should make new very very difficult hnms. If spawning ones, as mentioned before, make them spawn in any original zone. I think knowing this thing could spawn anywhere, would make it more exciting to actually find it. Kind of a similar idea to the horse and sandworm, but not as annoying in terms of it changing zones and running away etc. Just straight spawn anywhere and roam.

[Dazusu]

I agree, they should make new very very difficult hnms. If spawning ones, as mentioned before, make them spawn in any original zone. I think knowing this thing could spawn anywhere, would make it more exciting to actually find it. Kind of a similar idea to the horse and sandworm, but not as annoying in terms of it changing zones and running away etc. Just straight spawn anywhere and roam.

Yes prease

[Orson]

I agree, they should make new very very difficult hnms. If spawning ones, as mentioned before, make them spawn in any original zone. I think knowing this thing could spawn anywhere, would make it more exciting to actually find it. Kind of a similar idea to the horse and sandworm, but not as annoying in terms of it changing zones and running away etc. Just straight spawn anywhere and roam.

Just make sure to put the best gear on instanced or triggered HNMs instead of these. I'm sure since you're just in it for the competitive challenge you'll be fighting and camping the free spawning mobs anyways.

Also I'm morbidly curious and you could just as easily lie but have you actually even killed AV or even PW for that matter? Heck have you fought and beat Rani and Shinryu with no brews? Try them without cruor buffs and atma if you want real challenges.

[Vold]

Personally I want to see zone wide pops, across all zones, even if it means some lowbie has to get their ass handed to them on a silver platter time from time, with 2-4 week timers. Basically DI and Tia combined on steroids. I dare someone to bot that. I double dog dare you to go through the trouble of making 200ish bots or however many you would need to cover every zone just to look for a super rare HNM that only spawns a dozen and a half times a year. Oh but no, we only want stuff that we can realistically get our hands on so it'd be about 1 month after release before someone starts crying about it and demands the timer be changed. Uber gear, prestige of making the kill, and competition be damned.

My idea is more or less the only way to fix ground HNMs in their current state. It doesn't have to follow my idea 110%. Just make them unpredictable. Right now you can predict their spawns. It didn't take us long to figure out respawn. We were crazy enough to wait at a spot for 24 hours to learn their timers were 21-24 hours. So up the timers if nothing else. Turn them all into Tiamat. Putting an end to claim botting isn't hard, but it requires action instead of no action to work. Make the change and force players to send out their little army of mules to watch for pops.

I would love to see new HNM or old HNM come back to life but do us a favor and just forget about it if it's going to be more of the same stuff, tailor made to bot by a handful of LSs that will monopolize it, and focus on content everyone can enjoy instead. If you need to cater to hardcore gamers and imo you should as they are the heart and soul of every MMO, throw them a bone via +3 emp gear with whatever insane requirements. I'm sure they'll be grateful for it and I'll even put my money on exactly that happening via Abyssea additions well before we might see more HNMs added to the outside world. And I'm sure empy weapons will continue to grow, becoming increasingly time consuming with every update.

I have lots of ideas for this stuff, and I'm sure I have not thought of something SE hasn't already thought themselves. But we really need to see action taken instead of old content being forgotten about and "fixed" with new content. If FFXI is doomed to few and far between expansions to the game from here on out because of the PS2 then we have to see current content adjusted to keep things fresh. Plain and simple. Timer adjustments. New drops. The whole nine yards. Reuse old content. Dynamis is a good first step with this goal in mind.

[Natenn]

Id love to see a 2-4 week HNM pop in any zone, no one gonna camp it like SW/DI/Tiamat. At most botters would only be able to check death spot with third eye to see if it popped in that zone, but with maintenances and updates there wouldn't be any DS up long enough to for them to rely on. After server reset have it open 24hrs after and closes a week after that, then normal timer 2-4 weeks.

Side note: Make Behemoth/King Behemoth pop in that whole outside area in dominion, can at least make botters spread out and not have every 1 able to claim.


Some double HQ of kings be neat to.

[Ethereal]

Just make sure to put the best gear on instanced or triggered HNMs instead of these. I'm sure since you're just in it for the competitive challenge you'll be fighting and camping the free spawning mobs anyways.

Also I'm morbidly curious and you could just as easily lie but have you actually even killed AV or even PW for that matter? Heck have you fought and beat Rani and Shinryu with no brews? Try them without cruor buffs and atma if you want real challenges.

Never killed it at 75, not until 90. We've only killed AV a handful of times via perfect defense and tp burning method. PW we haven't actually tried yet (it's the only thing we havent killed but that's not much to say these days anyway), but again these nms at 90 arent nearly as challenging as they should be. Rani without brewing, yes we have done that, but had buffs. Shinryu without brewing I haven't personally done. But meh @ abyssea nowadays, it's losing luster imo. These NMs would have been great if there was no option to brew or abyssea buff. I like to be proud of accomplishments via reflection of equipment the linkshell has obtained. So we beat Rani or shinryu without brewing, ok great, but every character out there is running around with the same rewards already from a pickmeup group in port jueno.

My opinion, but i would like to be back out in the non-abyssea areas again. I could be crazy but I actually enjoyed camping for hnm. I didn't mind sitting around waiting for pops and fighting for claim, i could get stuff done between windows and it was exciting if we actually claimed.

Why not make 2 versions of these hnm...free ones that pop and you compete to claim, or ones that require high kindred seals or something that you can get the same drops from for people that don't have linkshells that would camp religiously. But i still think they should make juuuust ONE really difficult hnm that spawns.

Exciting to me in this game is getting suprised. Gathering up your forces and a plan and just popping nms is great and all but I think it's weak in entertainment. I prefer to be surprised or caught off guard. Thoughts like "Guys xxx NM is up! get there quick!" or "Hurry up we just claimed xxx, get here quick!" Stuff like that was fun to me, idk

[Runespider]

The only reason people want HNM back is to get the prestige of the old HNMLS and being thought of as better than everyone else, if they added new HNM and gave them drops inferior to what you can already get in ABY how many would want to go kill them for the competitive aspect? None.

HNM were about making bot makers rich, turning endgame players into RMT and encouraging botting and cheating.

[Zaknafein]

As a longtime playstation user. Ps2 then on to Ps3 a few years back I obviously don't bot. I can honestly say at this point I'd welcome fighting against douchey bot users just to fight some new HNM's for the hope of a fight with some actual risk of losing. This era of abyssea easy mode is getting really old. B4 you start with the Durr hurr if you want a challenge fight stuff w/o cruor buffs etc blah blah blah. No thanks! How about some content where you actually have to be a decent player, and there are no crutches period like atma's & cruor buffs and all that crap. As said above nothing can replace the feel of rushing to a HNM when it popped, or being the ones holding it while people rush there.

As far as the rewards they should be above average. Maybe a mix of a slight upgrade and different gear models only availabe from HNM all of which is rare/ex. That would give the people who chose to do the content something to show off. I love when people generalize players who enjoyed HNM like the only possible people who went there were botters. While bot using cheaters did represent a significant portion it was by no means an absolute. I think for the most part the people who whine, and cry on these HNM threads are ones who never even gave it a shot. A significant part of the draw was the excitement of the claim, and the teamwork.

[Runespider]

I can honestly say at this point I'd welcome fighting against douchey bot users just to fight some new HNM's for the hope of a fight with some actual risk of losing.

On my old server everyone had a share of HNM...until a botting LS sprang up and from that point on they got the vast majority of all HNM (crappy players too which made it worse). They had so many members and so many botters that they easily dominated claim on everything, wasting 3 hours+ for them to insta claim it almost every time against the other 4 ls there over and over was not fun or a challenge, nor was constant scanning for >6 hours for worldspawn HNM when they had 3 bots per zone that told them the instant it popped while they were watching TV or something. Once our server merged it completely and utterly destroyed even the small chance of claiming legit because the 3 big botting LS were competing with each other with 5-10+ botters in each all with staggered claim delays. HNM were only for the specific LS that made sure nobody else got them, even after the capped on gear...because they could then sell it.

If they want to make something more challenging add BCNM or force pop HNM which are genuinly difficult and are rationed in some way, anything that can be botted will be botted and bots when used right give a massive advantage. Shells didn't pay upto $1k for bots for no reason.


I think for the most part the people who whine, and cry on these HNM threads are ones who never even gave it a shot. A significant part of the draw was the excitement of the claim, and the teamwork.

I did it for many years, every single day. I know exactly how bad it was when you didn't have any botters in your LS. I do understand what you say about rushing out to the HNM when you got a claim on something with a hold team and I genuinly loved that part of it but after a while the sheer degree of success botters had at claiming meant they could field a lot more people to camp, so in the end none of those exciting times happened.

No matter how good something is if they can't find a way to make it work without cheating giving such an advantage to give them a monopoly then it should be left in the past.

[Zaknafein]

Yeah I hear that. People who bot deserve to be stoned to death. Personally I would love to see a new zone with some scattered enemies, a few T3, and a HNM. Whole zone PvP. Then if a group or linkshell cheats you can kill them. Sounds like hours of good entertainment to me. Lot's of drama sure, but would be exciting drama :)

[Auredant]

Since the rise level cap the traditional HNM(3 Kings, Sandworm Dark Ixion, Cerberus, Khimaira, Tiamat, ect.) Have pretty much lost their allure, now its not uncommon to see these monsters pop and just sit there unclaimed for minutes, hours, possibly days in some cases. The forced popped HNM in abyssea lose value in my opinion since anyone can just go kill them w/o competition. Camping and claiming is what kept alot of people hooked as it meant more to claim since the spawn timers were once a day/few days. Now all there is to do is stuff anyone can do, game seems less fun without anything worth competing over, i really hope to see a new batch of HNM for endgame Lv91-99 release. Ones that are rare, not like the current trend where anyone can do it. Any developers to share their thoughts, opinions, info.?

Personally i think claiming an HNM is overrated and am glad they've made it obsolete. It just fosters ill will and is not indicative of any skill whatsoever. On top of being extremely boring. And then ya get the odd player that wants to rub in ur face that they beat u to claim. Good riddance.

[Gildrein]

Greetings fellow adventurers!

Seems like many of you are looking for a new challenge in Vana'diel.
It's great to know that spirits for a challenge is burning in your heart.

Well guess what? Dev. team is working on to implement new HNM in the next major version update! :D

More details will become avaialble soon so stay tuned!

[Rosalie]

whatever it is, i just hope that it's a forced pop and not some ridiculous 21-24hr nightmare again. (or god forbid, 3-7 days)

[Randwolf]

whatever it is, i just hope that it's a forced pop and not some ridiculous 21-24hr nightmare again. (or god forbid, 3-7 days)

I agree. If it's a challenge, claiming it shouldn't be part of the challenge. Otherwise, you get a few groups who monopolize it. And, it should not be some long respawn window if it isn't a forced pop.

[Tempo]

Greetings fellow adventurers!

Seems like many of you are looking for a new challenge in Vana'diel.
It's great to know that spirits for a challenge is burning in your heart.

Well guess what? Dev. team is working on to implement new HNM in the next major version update! :D

More details will become avaialble soon so stay tuned!

Awsome very nice to hear.

[Runespider]

Greetings fellow adventurers!

Seems like many of you are looking for a new challenge in Vana'diel.
It's great to know that spirits for a challenge is burning in your heart.

Well guess what? Dev. team is working on to implement new HNM in the next major version update!

More details will become avaialble soon so stay tuned!

Lets see if they figured out a way to stop people botting, I seriously doubt it.

Can there be some indication of the spawn system?

[RaenRyong]

You'll be reducing the game back to its terrible botting roots.

[Lukielucas]

Yes cos I'm having great difficultly in claiming Guk in Aby Mis. Coast for the last Sobek KI and tried for 3 hours but i couldn't get it cos there was way too many botters that was camping him.... come on SE, help us out here pls, Abyssea is a timed event so how are we meant to do the things we wanna do when it's ruined our fun by the mass players who trying to claim Guk for the last KI for Sobek

[Belphantom]

Greetings fellow adventurers!

Seems like many of you are looking for a new challenge in Vana'diel.
It's great to know that spirits for a challenge is burning in your heart.

Well guess what? Dev. team is working on to implement new HNM in the next major version update! :D

More details will become avaialble soon so stay tuned!

Oh joy, something else for the top 3 most botted ls to battle out til the end of time, while everyone else stays away refusing to deal with the crap.

((Thanks for the offer, but I will have to pass.))

[Natenn]

Ppl who whine about bots need to suck it up, i went to Fafhogg for a year and maby got 3 or 4 claims a month when there would be 100 ppl in aery, same with KB. When SW/DI came out my PS2 stomped all the competition using bots, why? because botters aren't focused as someone who is spamming WS till it pops. Im not saying i don't get where your comming from, i know how frustrating it is to lose claim, but when you do claim you feel really good "awwwwww yea whose mad now?!" like that. I never gave up thats why i got so good claiming vs SW/DI. No lie my group beat a LS with 30 scanners (1 on each pop spot and 1 on Death spot per zone for them) almost every time bc they were so obsessed with getting bots and claimers out there that they would die holding and watch us claim bc we know how to hold and have 2-3 pairs of powder boots each. A LS like that will only excel at easy NM that pop in small areas. They wiped SO many times to cerb bc they weren't smart enough to stun.

[RaenRyong]

A system based around claiming and botting is not good, mkay?

[Natenn]

My final opinion: Get better or hush. If i can do it so can you, giving up and just QQing to developers about how you can't claim annoys ppl who actually bust their butts fighting against bots for so long, the claim and fight should be as equally hard, and if its something any average joe can do why bother? No prestige in killing things like Rani/Shinryu ect w/o brew bc no one gonna hear about it. Its a fame game for me, i wanna fight to be on top. Its not for everyone, just like WoE isn't, ive never done it.

[RaenRyong]

No fame in killing fafnir etc either, it's just who claims.

[Natenn]

113 posts, willing to bet most are complaints? just sayin. don't bash my idea of fun bc you don't approve.

[Cream_Soda]

No fame in killing fafnir etc either, it's just who claims.
Pretty much this.

If you're that worried about how you look to other people (omg this guy can claim an NM, he's so effin cool), then idk what to tell you.

[RaenRyong]

Most of my posts are satire actually :( and it's the idea of fun for an extremely small destructive minority.

[Cream_Soda]

113 posts, willing to bet most are complaints? just sayin. don't bash my idea of fun bc you don't approve.
It has nothing to do with bashing. It's just true. Fafnir was never hard. Nidhogg was never hard. it's all in the claiming, so it comes down to which shell's bots are that day's victor.

[Sovereign]

I'm excited to hear about a new HNM, this is some great news.

[Runespider]

It has nothing to do with bashing. It's just true. Fafnir was never hard. Nidhogg was never hard. it's all in the claiming, so it comes down to which shell's bots are that day's victor.

They were challenging when they added them, best you could do at the time was pld/wars tanking and smns doing blinkga rotations with DD struggling damage it. After many updates and merits etc they became a hell of a lot easier and it was all about claim though yeah, wasn't even worth hanging around once a shell got claim in the last few years cause even crappy shells never wiped..even the ones that kept linking all the darters could recover easily.


Ppl who whine about bots need to suck it up, i went to Fafhogg for a year and maby got 3 or 4 claims a month when there would be 100 ppl in aery, same with KB.

I did them for about 4 years I think, we got about the same claim rate..4-5 a month if we were lucky and maybe 1 HQ every few months. The 2 other botting LS got the rest and never left DA, winning by cheating should never be this obvious. If they learned nothing from HNM of old they better be ready for a hell of a lot more botting, everyone will bot now cause they have just had enough and it's been written in stone that cheaters are winners in FFXI.


When SW/DI came out my PS2 stomped all the competition using bots, why? because botters aren't focused as someone who is spamming WS till it pops. Im not saying i don't get where your comming from, i know how frustrating it is to lose claim, but when you do claim you feel really good "awwwwww yea whose mad now?!" like that. I never gave up thats why i got so good claiming vs SW/DI.

I was the same but you know what? You spent 5-6 hours scanning constantly since it had no windows, the death point scanners were watching teletubbies on youtube while you worked your ass off for 6 hours straight and with enough mules they could still beat you out on those now since both those HNM had very specific spawn spots on the map.


They wiped SO many times to cerb bc they weren't smart enough to stun.

Bots stun stuff.

[Satyr]

Ppl who whine about bots need to suck it up, i went to Fafhogg for a year and maby got 3 or 4 claims a month when there would be 100 ppl in aery, same with KB. When SW/DI came out my PS2 stomped all the competition using bots, why? because botters aren't focused as someone who is spamming WS till it pops. Im not saying i don't get where your comming from, i know how frustrating it is to lose claim, but when you do claim you feel really good "awwwwww yea whose mad now?!" like that. I never gave up thats why i got so good claiming vs SW/DI. No lie my group beat a LS with 30 scanners (1 on each pop spot and 1 on Death spot per zone for them) almost every time bc they were so obsessed with getting bots and claimers out there that they would die holding and watch us claim bc we know how to hold and have 2-3 pairs of powder boots each. A LS like that will only excel at easy NM that pop in small areas. They wiped SO many times to cerb bc they weren't smart enough to stun.

I'm sorry but the old NM(HNM) system in this game is just poor game design. I do not care how you argue it...putting monsters in that have revolving spawn times and have 21-24 hour respwans with 3 hour spawn windows (or worse) is poor game design. Endgame content should be about making fights that are a real challenge yet accessible to anyone that wants to participate. The old system forced you to be in an HNM shell due to the spawn mechanics and it is unrealistic for people to have to get up at 3AM to participate in content because some LS decided to hold King Arturo for 5 hours.

The game has consistently been moving away from the old HNM system seeing as the majority of endgame content since Zilart has been instanced, or forced spawn with the end results being things like Abyssea, Nyzul, Assault, etc. They still threw in some absurd HNMs to appease the LSs that think fun is sitting somewhere for 4 hours and spamming a provoke macro for 30 seconds every 30 min. The result? Many people liked Nyzul, and Assault, and pretty much anyone who is playing currently likes the abyssea system. The reason is because unlike with HNMs, you get rewarded for the time put in as well as the effort, whereas I would venture to guess that the vast majority of players have never even seen (let alone killed) Dark Ixion.

TL;DR: Endgame content should be about teamwork and effort, not about who can spam their provoke macro the fastest or who can have the most players awake at 3 AM.

[Mrbeansman]

113 posts, willing to bet most are complaints? just sayin. don't bash my idea of fun bc you don't approve.

Your idea of fun comes at the price of inconveniencing others.

[Runespider]

I really hope the devs can make a comment on how they plan to implement the spawn system cause I think thats as important as the fact they are adding them, if they are world spawns or anything we have seen before I'll just pretend they don't exist as content as will a lot of others. No point getting excited about content tthat is being made for botters, hell not even botters in general but the serious botters with more powerful claiming systems.

[Mirage]

As long as it doesn't require hours of camping, and competing with other claimers on better connections than I have, I think this is a good idea.

[Natenn]

Only inconvenient if you see it that way, all i see is pessimism in most of the ppl posting, its gonna be another ??? HNM or something that actually requires skill to kill thats hard to find out in the field.

[Dracoth]

One idea might be to have the old school HNM system (rotating 21-24 hour respawn with 3 hour pop window and everything) AND a BCNM type battle field that people could enter and fight the same mob. Make it so that the drop rate might be higher (not absurdly so) for the HNM but make sure that everything that drops from said HNM still drops from the BCNM. Kinda like how we have the KSNM battles for Black Belt items - just put the "abjuration" drops in the pool, as well. Then, those that like competing with others (whether botting or not) have a chance at still enjoying their aspect of the game but everyone else that would rather not participate in the "botting" fest have their chance to get the items, too.

[Runespider]

I really hope this "new HNM are coming" isn't the first sign of the dev team trying to push FFXI back to the old types of endgame, I don't think they will be ready for the backlash if they try that after allowing everyone to do content to making it just for the few with bots or putting every endgame event on a timetable to log on to. Did the old pre-abyssea XI staff working on FFXIV that got fired come back to FFXI recently? >_>

Idk about anyone else but I got sick of dynamis/limbus/Ein/salvage at "time" twice a week that all cost money (very often at times you had to stay up late to attend) and HNM camps for the rest of the time you were online. Could be the FFXI update of FFXIV proportions if they try that.

[Natenn]

World spawns will rise again.

[RaenRyong]

And retards with it.

[Mrbeansman]

Only inconvenient if you see it that way, all i see is pessimism in most of the ppl posting, its gonna be another ??? HNM or something that actually requires skill to kill thats hard to find out in the field.

I suppose you'll only be happy if they drop the best gear in the game right? Cause you know only people with no lives and bots deserve to have that gear right?

[Natenn]

the real life card? well played sir, well played.


Edit: i would be happy, why add the best gear to stuff that can be spammed? at least with HNM you see who really put the time/work in to earn it.

[Mrbeansman]

Seriously though content should be available to everyone not a select few with big wallets to spend on bots.

[Runespider]

Seriously though content should be available to everyone not a select few with big wallets to spend on bots.

It used to be accepted cause it was how FFXI was, people accepted that do get an Ebody you had to join certain botting shells or buy it off a RMT linkshell and that was just how it was. They changed all that with Abyssea and many people came back due to the changes, so people really won't take it very well if they try to go back down that road now lol

Can the FFXI dev team be stupid enough to try change the game back now? will see I guess. Old HNM = Botting and linkshells that sold the drops for RMT.

This staff comment is more worrying than exciting to me, I wish they would post how they plan them to be spawned or something. If they are going back to old FFXI I'm calling it quits after 8 years, I've had enough of that crappy bot ridden life draining endgame. Can't give people steak and go back to coconuts.

[Mrbeansman]

It used to be accepted cause it was how FFXI was, people accepted that do get an Ebody you had to join certain botting shells or buy it off a RMT linkshell and that was just how it was. They changed all that with Abyssea and many people came back due to the changes, so people really won't take it very well if they try to go back down that road now lol

Can the FFXI dev team be stupid enough to try change the game back now? will see I guess. Old HNM = Botting and linkshells that sold the drops for RMT.

This staff comment is more worrying than exciting to me, I wish they would post how they plan them to be spawned or something. If they are going back to old FFXI I'm calling it quits after 8 years, I've had enough of that crappy bot ridden life draining endgame. Can't give people steak and go back to coconuts.
Yeah complaining about botting kings is a moot point at this point. I just don't want to see SE add more bottable HNMs.

[Kuraudo]

I'm sorry but the old NM(HNM) system in this game is just poor game design. I do not care how you argue it...putting monsters in that have revolving spawn times and have 21-24 hour respwans with 3 hour spawn windows (or worse) is poor game design. Endgame content should be about making fights that are a real challenge yet accessible to anyone that wants to participate. The old system forced you to be in an HNM shell due to the spawn mechanics and it is unrealistic for people to have to get up at 3AM to participate in content because some LS decided to hold King Arturo for 5 hours.

The game has consistently been moving away from the old HNM system seeing as the majority of endgame content since Zilart has been instanced, or forced spawn with the end results being things like Abyssea, Nyzul, Assault, etc. They still threw in some absurd HNMs to appease the LSs that think fun is sitting somewhere for 4 hours and spamming a provoke macro for 30 seconds every 30 min. The result? Many people liked Nyzul, and Assault, and pretty much anyone who is playing currently likes the abyssea system. The reason is because unlike with HNMs, you get rewarded for the time put in as well as the effort, whereas I would venture to guess that the vast majority of players have never even seen (let alone killed) Dark Ixion.

TL;DR: Endgame content should be about teamwork and effort, not about who can spam their provoke macro the fastest or who can have the most players awake at 3 AM.

I couldn't have said it better myself. No one in their right mind likes spending hours upon hours sitting in one spot to claim one NM that spawns once a day. It's ridiculous and it shouldn't be done.

I'm pretty sure SE has learned from their mistakes and we won't be seeing 24 hour day spawns ever again.

EDIT: I hope we'll get a chance to somehow fight the great dragon Drogaroga. :)

[Psxpert2011]

"Botting" was the biggest problem which disabled the fun factor for legit players everywhere and I don't think we deserve to suffer the consequences from those who are lazy, greedy or who are utterly disrespectful and inconsiderate of the rest of the community. The game suffers, more countermeasures are added and it's plain cheating the challenge. If there was a way to tracked third party tools, how come "botters" where never punished?

Okay, enough of my yappin, I think the zones where HNMs reside are just plain targeted because of the lack of precaution needed to claim them when they pop. Let's say you need more than one person (like six members), the area would be guarded by EP mobs with no value that would link to the ground king if it aggroes any by-standards.

I think the same method would apply as to the fisher-bots, keep the character activated and busy. No two set of bots would constantly be doing two things at the same time and before you know it, they'll be dead, or reported and probably banned.

[Olor]

I would venture to guess that the vast majority of players have never even seen (let alone killed) Dark Ixion.


Funny enough I just saw dark Ixion awhile ago, wandering around, no one interested at all...

[Malamasala]

Because he does no longer drop anything interesting. Which is just proof of how nobody kills a single HNM for challenge, only for items.

[Sasukeuchiha]

The hoel thing stupid. It better not be 21 to 24 hour+ spawn nm agan i do not want to see botting come back agan. Unfair to everyone who is trying to play the game fair and legit.

[Atomic_Skull]

There are only three possibilities for HNM "challenge"

A. A 100% win strategy is figured out, and it becomes easy.

B. It's impossible to kill (e.g. oldschool Absolute Virtue)

C. Whether you win or loose is a lottery based on what it does. Either you get lucky and win or you are unlucky and it does something and destroys you.

[Atomic_Skull]

Because he does no longer drop anything interesting. Which is just proof of how nobody kills a single HNM for challenge, only for items.

I remember something I read years ago about this.

"People who claim to want "challenge" in MMO endgame bosses are clearly lying. They don't want a challenge, they want something slightly harder than easy"

An example of this in FFXI would be Einherjar. People said they wanted king/sky gear without having to camp and SE gave it to them. Then they complained that Einherjar was too hard, so SE dumbed it down. Then they complained that they had to show up to a 30 minute event twice a week so SE changed it so only the person trading the lamp had to have all feathers.. Then they complained that the drop rates were too low.

People will never stop complaining until everything they want is handed out by a NPC for free.

[Sasukeuchiha]

I remember something I read years ago about this.

"People who claim to want "challenge" in MMO endgame bosses are clearly lying. They don't want a challenge, they want something slightly harder than easy"

An example of this in FFXI would be Einherjar. People said they wanted king/sky gear without having to camp and SE gave it to them. Then they complained that Einherjar was too hard, so SE dumbed it down. Then they complained that they had to show up to a 30 minute event twice a week so SE changed it so only the person trading the lamp had to have all feathers.. Then they complained that the drop rates were too low.

People will never stop complaining until everything they want is handed out by a NPC for free.

I do not want anything handed to me i just want a system that more fair and does not promote cheating aka botting. It is unfair to the people who actualy trying to play the game right. Harder more challenging nms is ok by me as long as being able to fight the nm is fair for everyone.

[Atomic_Skull]

I do not want anything handed to me i just want a system that more fair and does not promot cheating aka botting. ITs unfair to the people who actualy trying to play the game right. Harder more chalanging nms is ok by me as long as being able to fight the nm is fair for everyone.

If that's true then you shouldn't have any problems with this idea:

Have the mob stay yellow for 5 seconds after it pops. During this time anyone can attack it. After 5 seconds are up claim will be passed to a random person on the mob's hate list.

This way you still have the excitement and competition of world spawns because you have to be paying attention and be fast to get into the claim pool. But bots would give no advantage to claiming the mob.

[Sasukeuchiha]

I do not want anything handed to me i just want a system that more fair and does not promote cheating aka botting. It is unfair to the people who actualy trying to play the game right. Harder more challenging nms is ok by me as long as being able to fight the nm is fair for everyone.


If that's true then you shouldn't have any problems with this idea:

Have the mob stay yellow for 5 seconds after it pops. During this time anyone can attack it. After 5 seconds are up claim will be passed to a random person on the mob's hate list.

This way you have to be paying attention and be fast to get into the claim pool and bots won't give any advantage to claiming the mob.

I beleave they still did that with old hnms and people still botte. The time spawn 21 to 24+ spawn nms just promoted botting. Harder is good promoting cheating is not.

[Atomic_Skull]

I beleave they still did that with old hnms and people still botte. The time spawn 21 to 24+ spawn nms just promoted botting. Harder is good promoting cheating is not.

No they did not do that. What they did was make the mob unclaimable for 0.5-3 seconds after it spawns and if you try to claim it during this "unclaimable" window your abilities are stunned for a few seconds.

If you did the reverse of that i.e. make the mob able to be attacked by anyone for a few seconds window after it pops and then pass claim randomly to someone who attacked it then it would make bots completely useless. It wouldn't matter if they botted or not because it wouldn't increase their chance of getting claim.

[Sasukeuchiha]

No they did not do that. What they did was make the mob unclaimable for 0.5-3 seconds after it spawns and if you try to claim it during this "unclaimable" window your abilities are stunned for a few seconds.

If you did the reverse of that i.e. make the mob able to be attacked by anyone for a few seconds window after it pops and then pass claim randomly to someone who attacked it then it would make bots completely useless. It wouldn't matter if they botted or not because it wouldn't increase their chance of getting claim.

Well that would work but without a dout someone with time will find a way to manipulate the system just to make sure they get the nm anyway. They need a way better way to camp and claim a nm then a 21 to 24+ hour spawn nm.

[Cream_Soda]

the real life card? well played sir, well played.


Edit: i would be happy, why add the best gear to stuff that can be spammed? at least with HNM you see who really put the time/work in to earn it.
Because sitting around for up to 3hrs at a time is your definition of work?

A NM doesn't have to be a 21-24 hour spawn to be difficult, lol.

"Oh hey, I put in so much work. I sat there for 3 hours, actually tried to claim it for 2 minutes, and fought it for 20 minutes!"

[LadyRagefist]

Greetings fellow adventurers!

Seems like many of you are looking for a new challenge in Vana'diel.
It's great to know that spirits for a challenge is burning in your heart.

Well guess what? Dev. team is working on to implement new HNM in the next major version update! :D

More details will become avaialble soon so stay tuned!

Hooray. New army of botfests.

[BurnNotice]

Respectfully, I welcome the challenge of some HNMs that are tougher than what is out now. Force spawn is cool, but having a little old school time popping isn't bad neither. I agree with everyone about the bots. People who use them, clearly are more than just cheaters, they are poor sports. I mean, why else would you want to use a tool to claim a monster from everyone else ALL THE TIME? lol.

[Mrbeansman]

Respectfully, I welcome the challenge of some HNMs that are tougher than what is out now. Force spawn is cool, but having a little old school time popping isn't bad neither. I agree with everyone about the bots. People who use them, clearly are more than just cheaters, they are poor sports. I mean, why else would you want to use a tool to claim a monster from everyone else ALL THE TIME? lol.

So you can sell ridills to noobs for 20 mil each.

[Atomic_Skull]

Well that would work but without a dout someone with time will find a way to manipulate the system just to make sure they get the nm anyway. They need a way better way to camp and claim a nm then a 21 to 24+ hour spawn nm.

And how exactly are they going to do that? You need to come up with something better than "they'll use their magic powers to find a way around it... somehow"

I think the real problem here is that you just don't like competition.

However some people do and they deserve to enjoy the game as much as people who don't like to compete.

[Mrbeansman]

And how exactly are they going to do that? You need to come up with something better than "they'll use their magic powers to find a way around it... somehow"

I think the real problem here is that you just don't like competition.

However some people do and they deserve to enjoy the game as much as people who don't like to compete.

So only you people who like competition deserve the gear that would come from these HNMs.

[Sasukeuchiha]

And how exactly are they going to do that? You need to come up with something better than "they'll use their magic powers to find a way around it... somehow"

I think the real problem here is that you just don't like competition.

However some people do and they deserve to enjoy the game as much as people who don't like to compete.

The isue is a 21 to 24+ time spawn nm is going to promot cheating. Unless it has a extreaming high drop rate to get the botting people away from it soon to let the people who want to play fair have a chance the hole system is flawed. They need to impliment a system that does not promote cheating. There nothing rong with compition is the fact people wont have there fair chance at the nm.

[Zaknafein]

Greetings fellow adventurers!

Seems like many of you are looking for a new challenge in Vana'diel.
It's great to know that spirits for a challenge is burning in your heart.

Well guess what? Dev. team is working on to implement new HNM in the next major version update! :D

More details will become availalble soon so stay tuned!

^+1 I approve this message!

[Anon]

Timed world pops were the best. That new abyssea crap is mehhh... sure it's fun for all but FF in it's roots has been more about the stature. Spamming abyssea nm's and e'one in the same gear is ftl. World spawn HNM's would be ftw and might bring players back. AFk'n @ joachim with what you whiners will never equip so you can see it on your way to get what e'one else has. And fyi I did quit; after 8 years it was time to go. Might come back for some old skool DA action!

[Cream_Soda]

I have a superiority complex
Basically what your post amounts to.

As long as I can personally do well, I couldn't care less about anyone else.

Someone getting a great piece of gear I have isn't going to ruin my day, lol.

[RaenRyong]

The HNM lovers really are the bottom of the barrel as far as players and people go. And SE want to cater to them? Dear lord.

[Draylo]

lol wow that is hilarious. Just because people like a challenge they are automatically at the bottom of the barrel, teehee.

[Karbuncle]

iTroll

Nothings challenging about openning a Bot. which is what most of Old-School HNM camping was. You can create a Challenge without a 21-24hr window.

Stop trollin!

[Atomic_Skull]

So only you people who like competition deserve the gear that would come from these HNMs.

And you're saying that people who enjoy competition don't deserve to enjoy the game.

[Atomic_Skull]

Nothings challenging about openning a Bot. which is what most of Old-School HNM camping was. You can create a Challenge without a 21-24hr window.


No you really can't. Either people will figure out a strategy that will allow them to always win or it'll be like oldschool AV and be completely impossible.

I already said how they you could make bots 100% useless on HNM's earlier. You just have the mob open to attack by anyone for about 5 seconds when it pops and then give claim to a random person on the hate list.

[Karbuncle]

No you really can't. Either people will figure out a strategy that will allow them to always win or it'll be like oldschool AV and be completely impossible.

I already said how they you could make bots 100% useless on HNM's earlier. You just have the mob open to attack by anyone for about 5 seconds when it pops and then give claim to a random person on the hate list.

I may be misinterpreting your statement, and if i am I'm sorry, But Adding a 21-24 Hours window isn't going to make people not be able to figure out a Strategy for Easy win.

I mean, one was discovered for Fafnir, Nidhogg, Aspid, Adamantoise, Behemoth, King Behemoth, Dark Ixion, Sandworm and all his inside Buddies, Cerberus, Hydra, Khimaira, etc etc. For the most part, despite being 21-24hr nms, the hardest thing about them was Claiming against the other botters.

I apologize for confusion but i just don't see the connection between 21-24hour spawns and difficulty. You can make an NM have a short-spawn window, or a Force pop (look at Kirin back in the day, Byakko, etc).

It doesn't have to be as simple as "Kill x mob of x family, get x pop item for x NM" like it is in Abyssea, it could be a system like Sea, Sky, or ZNMs where you had to build up to the HNM.

This may not be directed at you, But i have a feeling all the people itching for 21-24hr world-claim NMs being the level 99 Kings of gear, are just the people who bought thousand dollar bots, only to have thousand-dollar wasted Computer Memory now because of what Abyssea had made the game, and they want the e-peen and false sense of superiority they had back when they ruled the FFXI endgame scene.

[RaenRyong]

lol wow that is hilarious. Just because people like a challenge they are automatically at the bottom of the barrel, teehee.

It's the superiority complex, not the wanting of challenge which makes them bottom of the barrel.

Though I don't know why I dignify a response on you.

[Runespider]

This may not be directed at you, But i have a feeling all the people itching for 21-24hr world-claim NMs being the level 99 Kings of gear, are just the people who bought thousand dollar bots, only to have thousand-dollar wasted Computer Memory now because of what Abyssea had made the game, and they want the e-peen and false sense of superiority they had back when they ruled the FFXI endgame scene.

This.

If Square offer these HNM in the way Faf/DI popped they are basically validating botting/scanners knowing what they do about how badly they were abused for years, if they do that then every single person that wants to fight them needs to get a bot cause the devs are basically telling you thats how they want the game to be.

It wont be cheating anymore it will be the valid claiming system the dev team selected cause they know they can't beat the botters.

The big endgame shells never liked competition they liked being able to cock block others with their better bots and having gear others could not get unless they bought it off them. I'm amazed a dev doesn't make a comment on the spawn system they intend to use seeing how many people are annoyed at the possibilities of the game returning to being the best = buying the best bot.

[Karbuncle]

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]

You appear to be incredibly upset over this situation. Perhaps you could cancel your account as to not further your pain.

I understand that when things don't go the way you want, you want to cry and blame other people for misfortunes, But it is simply not the solution. It can lead to medical problems due to excessive anger. I suggest stepping back from the game, and these forums, and enjoying an evening anger free.

[Karbuncle]

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]

I have no idea what you mean by "People like me". Is that a Racist comment? I've reported you for it.

[Cream_Soda]

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]
Saying "its not a superiority complex" right before defining superiority complex doesn't make it any less so, just sayin.


No you really can't. Either people will figure out a strategy that will allow them to always win or it'll be like oldschool AV and be completely impossible.
yea, because if the NM is 21-24 hours, you'll never bea ble to come up with a strategy to beat the NM. Clever thinking there, buddy.

[Natenn]

oh boo hoo, mods aren't gonna ban ppl unless something bluntly offensive is said.

Hey SE, soon as you announced new HNM i told my ex ffxi ppl who quit to go play WoW and like not even 3m later i had 5 ppl saying they'll come back to FFXI if they're world spawn HNM. Now im only 1 person and i got 5 ppl ready to pay $12 a month again, theres prolly a ton of other ppl that would be back to. Smart move on your part, though the ppl sulking about it might not like it they won't quit/deactivate their account, not enough of them vs the amount that would be back. SE aim is to profit like any other company in the world, they'll do w/e brings in the most cash for them. Am i wrong?

[Shibayama]

Honest to god I would be totally amenable to HNM's that just dropped awesome furniture pieces.

In any case, it seems like the major argument for the old-style HNM's is that it was "challenging". I don't particularly see how the higher tier abyssea NM's are less challenging than the older ones. Sure you have the option to brew, and there are the weakness triggers for reliable drops but there aren't really too many big NM's that you can throw an alliance of clueless people with no semblance of strategy at and expect them to win. I think the abyssea HNM system put the stress where it needed to be - fighting the monster as opposed to claiming it. Sure, it requires considerably less organization and time, thus making gear more readily available and making that epona's ring of yours feel less special than your defending ring but does the perception that you clawed your way through more people for one really make it more valuable?

I'm sure not everybody who liked the old-style HNM's got off on the fact that they were part of some "Elite Group", smugly listening to the server-wide whispers of that one linkshell that totally dominates. But I think the old NM spawn and claim systems rightfully deserve to stay in the past - they were kind of a poorly thought out concept that players just got used to as the standard of highest difficulty and skill in my opinion.

As far as people who liked the challenge of competing with other people for gear, instead of the old HNM system why not push for a more rigorous PVP system where good gear is gained from your accrued victories (more like assault and less like "get it in afew hours" cruor gear). You'd get your hands on gear that people knew required skill to get while still giving you the satisfaction of ruining somebody else's day.

[Natenn]

does the perception that you clawed your way through more people for one really make it more valuable? To me, yes it does, it means all my hard work keepin track of ToD/not giving up paid off. It took me years to get D ring, fighting against botters up till the day i got it. So yea its of much more value to me then an eponas ring.

[RaenRyong]

Hey SE, soon as you announced new HNM i told my ex ffxi ppl who quit to go play WoW and like not even 3m later i had 5 ppl saying they'll come back to FFXI if they're world spawn HNM. Now im only 1 person and i got 5 ppl ready to pay $12 a month again, theres prolly a ton of other ppl that would be back to. Smart move on your part, though the ppl sulking about it might not like it they won't quit/deactivate their account, not enough of them vs the amount that would be back. SE aim is to profit like any other company in the world, they'll do w/e brings in the most cash for them. Am i wrong?

You were part of HNMLS and therefore have HNM members. A minority, nonetheless.


In the process of crying your way to AH-Elite jack holes you've almost ruined FF. Hopefully some more world HNM's would put you guys where you really belong. The bottom of the barrel you speak of. That's what you were in '03~04. And that's where you'll always be.

There's a very strong chance I'm better than you :)


Read through my post. See what I'm talking about? I did quit lol. I linger here because it's fun. I rather enjoy watching you white knighters and gimps galore get blown up and bow out silently. Makes me smile on the inside. On topic world hnm's would be a good idea. Bring people like me back to ruin the days of people like you.

Play some real competitive games, not just "buy a bot and claim" and get destroyed. If you thrive off of the "competition" of the claim, you need to play real competition.

[Natenn]

So you are calling me retarded? Im am offended by your statement greatly and am outraged, i have a family member who is retarded and you dare mock them? I will report this outrage.

[RaenRyong]

In the colloquial and non-literal sense of the term, yes - your arguments are very poor and are essentially based on your need to wave your epeen around. The game is better off without you.

[Natenn]

How do i report ppl? I don't see a report user anywhere.

[Cream_Soda]

So you are calling me retarded? Im am offended by your statement greatly and am outraged, i have a family member who is retarded and you dare mock them? I will report this outrage.
If you think he was mocking w/e family that you probably never had to begin with, you obviously misunderstood his point, so if he isn't calling you it, I am.

Edit: in before being reported for calling you "it"!

[RaenRyong]

Exclamation mark below the avatar.

If you need to report, well ... I dread the day that braindead idiots have their superiority complexes fulfilled again.

[Cream_Soda]

Exclamation mark below the avatar.

If you need to report, well ... I dread the day that braindead idiots have their superiority complexes fulfilled again.
My fav ones were the ones w/ good gear, who had the play style of a 10 year old and were easily put aside by average gear players who knew what they were doing. Like those people who used ridill for who knows how long after the 2hand update and thought they were better than everyone else while they were doing it, lol.

[RaenRyong]

My fav ones were the ones w/ good gear, who had the play style of a 10 year old and were easily put aside by average gear players who knew what they were doing. Like those people who used ridill for who knows how long after the 2hand update and thought they were better than everyone else while they were doing it, lol.

But but but I thought HNMs were super challenging and you had to be awesome to kill them?

[Runespider]

So you are calling me retarded? Im am offended by your statement greatly and am outraged, i have a family member who is retarded and you dare mock them? I will report this outrage.

XD


Hey SE, soon as you announced new HNM i told my ex ffxi ppl who quit to go play WoW and like not even 3m later i had 5 ppl saying they'll come back to FFXI if they're world spawn HNM. Now im only 1 person and i got 5 ppl ready to pay $12 a month again, theres prolly a ton of other ppl that would be back to. Smart move on your part, though the ppl sulking about it might not like it they won't quit/deactivate their account, not enough of them vs the amount that would be back. SE aim is to profit like any other company in the world, they'll do w/e brings in the most cash for them. Am i wrong?

If you wanna go there, the best way to make money in an MMO is to target the largest audience, the largest audience is not the 100-200 people that did HNM. The people that would quit at the only endgame being stuff people can't do would far outweigh the tards that you mention. Most of the shells I know that disbanded and the leaders quit cause of Abyssea were the shells that sold all the events gear they got for obvious reasons.. game is far better off with them gone.

[Natenn]

New HNM should involve luck claiming AND intellect to kill it afterward. Now when i say intellect i mean something that requires every member of your party to be on the ball. A ??? NM like AV was a little extreme, everyone knew how to kill it but it required everyone to have a MDT set, be skilled at their job, ect. right now all most ppl are doing are crying because they scared of not claiming. Im sure the new BCNMs for KC/HKC will drop the stuff that the new HNM drop, only at a lower rate. But, this is only my speculation mind you.

[Natenn]

yea but ppl won't quit bc HNM added, 100-200 ppl will be back per server. 1000-2000 ppl comming back x $12 a month at least = $ for SE.

[Shibayama]

XD



If you wanna go there, the best way to make money in an MMO is to target the largest audience, the largest audience is not the 100-200 people that did HNM. The people that would quit at the only endgame being stuff people can't do would far outweigh the tards that you mention. Most of the shells I know that disbanded and the leaders quit cause of Abyssea were the shells that sold all the events gear they got for obvious reasons.. game is far better off with them gone.

Agreed. Nothing sucked more than getting your first job to 75 thinking you're going to have so much fun only to realize that you were stuck to your linkshell leader's schedule of events. Abyssea is awesome because there is always something to do, enough gear to placate more casual players as well as items that give you a fair amount of clout because of the amount of work you were willing to put into getting it. This whole paranoia that FFXI is on easymode and that a new player is going to sweep up black belts and Ridills is rediculous - it's just not going to happen and it just seems like an attempt to make the accomplishments of clearing your schedule and showing up to something on time have meaning. Just because a player has enough time in their schedule to get a +2 peice doesn't mean they have the time, drive or connections to get an Ukonvarasa too.

There's a difference between actual difficulty and poor play design. The old HNM system was the later and instead of going back down the path of excluding certain players from content and gear, new methods of competition and reward need to be explored.

[Cream_Soda]

New HNM should involve luck claiming AND intellect to kill it afterward. Now when i say intellect i mean something that requires every member of your party to be on the ball. A ??? NM like AV was a little extreme, everyone knew how to kill it but it required everyone to have a MDT set, be skilled at their job, ect. right now all most ppl are doing are crying because they scared of not claiming. Im sure the new BCNMs for KC/HKC will drop the stuff that the new HNM drop, only at a lower rate. But, this is only my speculation mind you.
Luck =/= skill. Name one good reason for a luck based system for claim.

[Natenn]

Everyone doing the same thing every day is silly. Why give NMs titles if everyone else on the server has it to?

[Cream_Soda]

Everyone doing the same thing every day is silly. Why give NMs titles if everyone else on the server has it to?
Why do you care what everyone else is doing? "Oh hey, they like to do this too, so it's not cool anymore"

[RaenRyong]

Didn't you camp the same HNMs every day before?

[RaenRyong]

Why do you care what everyone else is doing? "Oh hey, they like to do this too, so it's not cool anymore"

Well, not that this is news to you, but these type of people are just epeen-driven idiots who need to play real competitive games and realise that pushing for non-pvp competition in this game is dumb. There is triumph in beating someone in a real game or a proper pvp setting, but over a claim? Get real. You're seriously sheltered if you consider it good and fulfilling competition.

[Natenn]

Also, thats how SE wanted HNM, to be found by exploration. If they had a HNM that popped in any zone that you couldn't see on WS till someone found it/aggro it(like how Iron giants are) that would be wonderful, making it harder to find, you would actually have to find it manually. Not sit in a cramped area like kings or be able to wide scan it like SW/DI.

[Shibayama]

Everyone doing the same thing every day is silly. Why give NMs titles if everyone else on the server has it to?
If you're so concerned about having something nobody else has, why not just spend yer time raising the best darn chocobo ever in an exotic color or something. It's just as much of a timesink.

[Karbuncle]

oh boo hoo, mods aren't gonna ban ppl unless something bluntly offensive is said.

Hey SE, soon as you announced new HNM i told my ex ffxi ppl who quit to go play WoW and like not even 3m later i had 5 ppl saying they'll come back to FFXI if they're world spawn HNM. Now im only 1 person and i got 5 ppl ready to pay $12 a month again, theres prolly a ton of other ppl that would be back to. Smart move on your part, though the ppl sulking about it might not like it they won't quit/deactivate their account, not enough of them vs the amount that would be back. SE aim is to profit like any other company in the world, they'll do w/e brings in the most cash for them. Am i wrong?

Clearly My Statement Went over your head. I apologize that you are unable to capture the sarcasm in someones who's given up on showing an obviously angry troll the light :)!

(This is in regards to my racism comment on the "Anon")

And i mean really, I look away from this thread for like, 1 hour, and You guys blow up 3 more pages >.>

[RaenRyong]

I agree that it sounds like a really cool idea, but it's how they'd implement it without it turning into just a huge timesink...

[Natenn]

I agree that it sounds like a really cool idea, but it's how they'd implement it without it turning into just a huge timesink...

What does?

[Runespider]

Also, thats how SE wanted HNM, to be found by exploration. If they had a HNM that popped in any zone that you couldn't see on WS till someone found it/aggro it(like how Iron giants are) that would be wonderful, making it harder to find, you would actually have to find it manually. Not sit in a cramped area like kings or be able to wide scan it like SW/DI.

Square made Sandworm and DI as horrible as they did because they thought nobody would actively camp them (full 6 hour windows) and just stumble on them, they were wrong. Also you know as well as anyone else most of the people (especially near the end) that camped DI/SW didn't have widescan...they just sat on(or ran past) the dead mob and had the few spawn spots covered.

If Square found a way to hide dead mobs maybe what you suggest could work but not with the way the game is and how easy it is to abuse.

[RaenRyong]

What does?

The idea of free roaming really hard monsters is a really cool one. However, with the system in its current state, I am unconvinced that they can introduce such a thing without it becoming a huge timesink and/or camped around the clock.

[Natenn]

4hr window, i camped sw/di everyday till Lv85 came out, botg were 20-24 bar the SW skips occasionaly bc to many in Everbloom

[Natenn]

if a NM like that was 1-2 week pop no one would "camp" it. eve 3-5 days, id not be looking for it like a mad man. i might take a stroll around on a chocobo occasionaly but not long.

[Sasukeuchiha]

if a NM like that was 1-2 week pop no one would "camp" it

Sure there would but only a select few.

[Runespider]

4hr window, i camped sw/di everyday till Lv85 came out, botg were 20-24 bar the SW skips occasionaly bc to many in Everbloom

DI was 4 but campaign made it go on longer and JPs always scared it to extend the tods, SW was 5 and it despawned if unclaimed for an hour. I camped them every day since a few months after they added them till they added Abyssea, wasted way too much of my life rescanning over and over for a disgusting amount of time every day, as did many others.


if a NM like that was 1-2 week pop no one would "camp" it

So they just made an NM that nobody legit will camp but that people can buy alts and park in zones to death scan instead, you just made HNM just for cheaters again. People would pay over $1k for good bots, you think they won't pay a few extra bucks a month for however many mules?

[Natenn]

Not me lol and SW/DI never popped in same zone the died/depop in last. theres over 20 zones they can make it pop in, and if its a 1-2 week pop thats only 4-8 death spots a month, the chance of it popping in a zone 2x b4 a maintenance or update is extremly low, making DS camping unreliable.

[Runespider]

Not me lol and SW/DI never popped in same zone the died/depop in last. theres over 20 zones they can make it pop in, and if its a 1-2 week pop thats only 4-8 death spots a month, the chance of it popping in a zone 2x b4 a maintenance or update is extremly low, making DS camping unreliable.

The general rule of thumb in FFXI is bot makers > Square devs in regard to spawning HNM, people made way too much rl money off them for it to be any other way. No matter how fullproof you think your idea is they would end up going to the same LS that had that specific app made to find the mob, nobody would just stumble onto it.

[Natenn]

Bot don't mean you can kill it.

[Runespider]

Bot don't mean you can kill it.

Shells with reliable bots attract more/better members since they get claim, that means they can kill it.

[Svenny]

There are only three possibilities for HNM "challenge"

A. A 100% win strategy is figured out, and it becomes easy.

B. It's impossible to kill (e.g. oldschool Absolute Virtue)

C. Whether you win or loose is a lottery based on what it does. Either you get lucky and win or you are unlucky and it does something and destroys you.


I'll take B please! ^^;

[Tivaud]

Well were all entitled to our opinion, heres my opinion: I play on PS2 only, i outclaimed bots plenty of times and i rarely got beat on SW/DI. bar kings you stand a better chance claiming legit then vs a bot, even then ive claimed more with PS2 then ppl botting did. I think forced pop NM are to easy to access and kill. All the FF games usually have several rare/hard to beat/great reward monsters, this 1 doesn't anymore.

I see your point about anyone poppin anytime, but just because you pop it, doesn't mean you can beat it. Making the required pop set difficult to get or time consuming is nearly the same as 1-7 day HNMs. I would suggest just making the pop NMs much harder with respect to lvl 99 jobs and in Abyssea the HNMs should be even more difficult due to the introduction of brewing.

[Tivaud]

Maby a system like "Mob pops claimed to a random person in its aggro range thats above a certain lvl" that way it's impossible for anyone to bot and claims get distributed accordingly. Like say if they did this to Fafnir and made minimum lvl 70. you bring 6 ppl, theres a total of 12 in his aggro range above Lv70 = you have a 50% chance it pops claimed to you. I think this is a good idea, just tweak it a bit ect. OR if you bring 6 ppl but 2 are Lv69 or less with 12 total aggro range but only 10 are 70+ = your PT has a 40% chance to claim 4/10 eligible in range.

So what happens if you and your 6 man group are waiting on it and a LS of 30 ppl show up...now you're chances are crap. (17%)

[Mittenz]

Those who say abyssea has improved FFXI and the vast majority of players have never been happier I would like to state my servers are at an all time low for population and since the release of abyssea there planning a 2nd wave of mergers. A lot of players stuck to this game because it was a hard game if we wanted a wowified game we would play wow just because YOUR happy dont make a generalization for all players that server populations will argue rather clearly.

As for new HNM I am happy for this I love a challenge who cares if its a long spawn or not, and yes I think it should have better gear unlike something you can spam because you put the time and effort into something hard. I like competition and before you whine that people who bot win obviously never tried hard enough botting is not a 100% win its still luck involved. Besides not like you can't bot abyssea or ???'s anyway so idk why you think thats a golden example.

I personally want new tiamat/khim style mobs that you race against 3-4 other LS's every 2-5 days to get to through agro and if your tank dies you lose the race.

[Runespider]

Those who say abyssea has improved FFXI and the vast majority of players have never been happier I would like to state my servers are at an all time low for population and since the release of abyssea there planning a 2nd wave of mergers. A lot of players stuck to this game because it was a hard game if we wanted a wowified game we would play wow just because YOUR happy dont make a generalization for all players that server populations will argue rather clearly.

The server merges were planned 12 months ago, this is part 2 of that, is nothing new and was done before Abyssea was added.

Also sorry but HNM are nothing to the vast majority of players, when I did HNM every name was familiar. Would be lucky it 100-200 people did them on the entire server.


I like competition and before you whine that people who bot win obviously never tried hard enough botting is not a 100% win its still luck involved. Besides not like you can't bot abyssea or ???'s anyway so idk why you think thats a golden example.

It's not 100% but its not far off, good botters that work as a team have a very very high chance to claim.

Someone else posted a good workaround really, if they want to add worldspawn nms just let them pop in a state where everyone can put a claim on them for 30 seconds and it randomly give claim to one of them. Easiest way to leave it competitive but remove the huge bonus botting gives.

[Mittenz]

My first statement was to those whining how everyone likes abyssea its how it should always be and such not in regards to specifically HNM.

[RaenRyong]

Those who say abyssea has improved FFXI and the vast majority of players have never been happier I would like to state my servers are at an all time low for population and since the release of abyssea there planning a 2nd wave of mergers. A lot of players stuck to this game because it was a hard game if we wanted a wowified game we would play wow just because YOUR happy dont make a generalization for all players that server populations will argue rather clearly.

Hi2u correlation-causation confusion

I would say there was some validity to your points, if

1. FF14 hadn't come out (lol but still, it hurt subscriber numbers as people left and stayed there or left and decided to not come back)
2. WoW Cataclysm came out
3. Rift came out
4. etc etc etc

This ain't a vacuum.

[Catsby]

Hi2u correlation-causation confusion

I would say there was some validity to your points, if

1. FF14 hadn't come out (lol but still, it hurt subscriber numbers as people left and stayed there or left and decided to not come back)
2. WoW Cataclysm came out
3. Rift came out
4. etc etc etc

This ain't a vacuum.

Not to mention there isn't much promotion for FFXI aside from steam sales every now and again.

[Swords]

I'm a bit torn on the subject. Both HNM's and Instanced mobs are fun, I liked doing both, and they each have their share of drawbacks.

I don't care for HNM's 3 hour windows, nor waiting 21 hours for the thing to possibly respawn, I did love the excitement and thrill of outclaiming others, making you think on your feet and stay on your toes.

On the other hand, Instanced NM's eliminate the wait, but you can pretty much take your time preparing when your good and ready eliminating some of the challenge.

I would love to see a change in current HNM's, maybe revamping their drops, the challenge, and shortened respawn/windows giving way to more oppertunities for people to claim, and not possibly waiting weeks for a HNM to respawn back in your timezone. But that's just a bit of wishful thinking on my part.

[Catsby]

I would love to see a change in current HNM's, maybe revamping their drops, the challenge, and shortened respawn/windows giving way to more oppertunities for people to claim, and not possibly waiting weeks for a HNM to respawn back in your timezone. But that's just a bit of wishful thinking on my part.

My friend, let me introduce you to the concept of leaderboards, trophies, and achievements. Suppose you and your linkshell just killed an instanced version of a really strong monster. You want to flaunt your kill and waggle your e-dingdong in front of other linkshells because...well why the heck not? They obviously can't be there to watch you and the title you now have might have been from a kill some time ago. The easiest solution is to provide a sort of kill list at the scene of the fight of all the best kills in recent history including the duration of the fight, the number of members, the names of the members and the jobs they were on. The next step would be difficulty levels, meaningful level caps and player imposed restrictions on the fight all visible with the kill list.

So the next time your friend in a rival linkshell says "we just killed tiamat in 20 minutes with 6" you can say "yeah? we did in 18 with 6... naked. Don't believe me? check the kill list".

[Atomic_Skull]

This may not be directed at you, But i have a feeling all the people itching for 21-24hr world-claim NMs being the level 99 Kings of gear, are just the people who bought thousand dollar bots, only to have thousand-dollar wasted Computer Memory now because of what Abyssea had made the game, and they want the e-peen and false sense of superiority they had back when they ruled the FFXI endgame scene.


Which is why you would make the bots useless by having the mob pop yellow for a few seconds and then pass claim to a random person on it's hate list. That way you'd still have to pay attention and be fast to get claim but it would also make bots completely worthless because attacking it first would not claim it. Claim would be given randomly to one of the people who attacked it during the 2-3 second long claim window.

[Atomic_Skull]

So what happens if you and your 6 man group are waiting on it and a LS of 30 ppl show up...now you're chances are crap. (17%)

If bots didn't exist and claiming was completely fair your chances would be 17% with 6 vs 30 anyway.

[Sasukeuchiha]

If bots didn't exist and claiming was completely fair your chances would be 17% with 6 vs 30 anyway.

I would rather have that then a almost 0% unfair chance because people bot.

[Atomic_Skull]

I would rather have that then a almost 0% unfair chance because people bot.

How about this?


Which is why you would make the bots useless by having the mob pop yellow for a few seconds and then pass claim to a random person on it's hate list. That way you'd still have to pay attention and be fast to get claim but it would also make bots completely worthless because attacking it first would not claim it. Claim would be given randomly to one of the people who attacked it during the 2-3 second long claim window.

[Swords]

SE already did something similar to that in the past to interrupt spam bots, but all it really does it keep people from constantly spamming Job abilities and spells. All you end up doing is fake claiming the mob, receiving invalid message, and temporary delay penalty before you can recast the action, which by then is too late. Most of the bots now have been modified to adjust for the delay through packet sniffing, that lets people cast or use a JA so they can claim the exact moment the computer will allow people to claim.

Though the idea is not half bad, it's pitfall would be whomever has the most people would likely get claim. Most botters lack any real skill in playing their job, so they tend to have a bunch of people to throw at the NM to begin with. Besides, even if they did have some skill, it wouldn't take much to create or use a bunch of mule/trial accounts soely for claim.

[Sasukeuchiha]

How about this?

In the end they should not make it a 21 to 24 hour + spawn. Can you not see all the problems that come from this system yet,. Bottting unfairness the faster it spawns and the faster people get there gear the faster there going to move on so everyone will have there fair chance at the nm.

[Snaplin]

Jesus Christ so much crying in this thread... Suck Less™ at claiming or don't camp. Easy as that.

[Cream_Soda]

Jesus Christ so much crying in this thread... Suck Less™ at claiming or don't camp. Easy as that.
Most people's problem isn't w/ the camping itself rather than the possibility of NMs only popping once a day again, taking our step forward with the past couple of updates a huge step back in the wrong direction.

[Atomic_Skull]

SE already did something similar to that in the past to interrupt spam bots, but all it really does it keep people from constantly spamming Job abilities and spells. All you end up doing is fake claiming the mob, receiving invalid message, and temporary delay penalty before you can recast the action, which by then is too late. Most of the bots now have been modified to adjust for the delay through packet sniffing, that lets people cast or use a JA so they can claim the exact moment the computer will allow people to claim.

I am aware of this, however my idea is the complete opposite of that so I don't see how it's relevant.


Though the idea is not half bad, it's pitfall would be whomever has the most people would likely get claim. Most botters lack any real skill in playing their job, so they tend to have a bunch of people to throw at the NM to begin with. Besides, even if they did have some skill, it wouldn't take much to create or use a bunch of mule/trial accounts soely for claim.

If bots did not exist and claiming was completely fair this would be the case anyway. More people would still = higher chance to claim.

Trial accounts aren't a problem SE discontinued them a while ago.

[Mrbeansman]

For people saying there's no competition in the game anymore go camp Gukumetz or Amun during JP prime time and then come back with your QQing.

[Snaplin]

For people saying there's no competition in the game anymore go camp Gukumetz or Amun during JP prime time and then come back with your QQing.

This^^, lowering the re-spawn time won't make a difference but LS's who bot can claim more often. Poping once a day lets LS's be able to sit around and bot claim more then once. Suck it up and get better at claiming or don't camp is about all you can do.

Remember when Sandworm and Dark Ixion came out and everyone cheered SE on for such a good idea of a multi zone/Area pop NM? Hi2u Death spot scanner, no matter what SE comes up with there will always be a way to get an edge over the competition. ("???" Spawned HNM's?) There are bots that can trade a pop before your F8 Spam even clicks on it. Sorry but its one of those "Just deal with it situations. :/

On a Side note I do hope they bring HNM's back hell 30 min between each window means I can afk and get real life stuff done, I afk for 30 min in abyssea and my LS is on the opposite side of the zone while I'm getting face raped by some mob attacking me. I will agree tho windows like Tiamat, WTF was SE thinking?

Edit: To be honest SE prob. didn't think people would ally face camp HNM's who knows, Maybe they though LS's would mule there and race out. Can't be mad at them for other people having time on there hands. :/

[Runespider]

For people saying there's no competition in the game anymore go camp Gukumetz or Amun during JP prime time and then come back with your QQing.

I spent years among HNM players, they don't want competition...at all.

They want to be able to win and either cockblock others or just get their stuff asap, but they really don't like/want anything where they could routinely lose. As in they don't like fair odds compeition gives, thats why all the biggest shells were the botting shells.

People that say they want compeition from HNM really just want the old status they used to have standing around afk in an ebody that almost nobody else owned, every time I see people lose claim even in Abyssea they start turning on or searching out the bots. Thats all this games playerbase boils down to, if they can't win most of the time they'll cheat while spouting excuses as to why.


Though the idea is not half bad, it's pitfall would be whomever has the most people would likely get claim. Most botters lack any real skill in playing their job, so they tend to have a bunch of people to throw at the NM to begin with. Besides, even if they did have some skill, it wouldn't take much to create or use a bunch of mule/trial accounts soely for claim.

I wouldn't have a problem with this personally but it's easy to stop. Make it so that once claim is given to the random player your alliance is locked and you can't invite or outside assist that alliance. Now unless you can field 2 fully capable kill squads you can only claim on max of 18 players same as other shells.

[Snaplin]

I wouldn't have a problem with this personally but it's easy to stop. Make it so that once claim is given to the random player your alliance is locked and you can't invite or outside assist that alliance. Now unless you can field 2 fully capable kill squads you can only claim on max of 18 players same as other shells.

That's not entirely true, The JP bot shell on my server have so many f'king mules they could easily kill with an alliance of mules. I swear to god they Mule ally camp EVERY King even to this day, even if there is no competition because their the only ones who gives 2 cents about kings.

[Runespider]

Well if they locked the alliance from moment of claim given till all drops have dropped then there would be a lot less point in that...unless they really wanted to gear mules. Anyway having mules is something everyone shares these days, especially since Abyssea and I would rather this method and Square get more money from that to work on new FFXI content than some retarded bot maker get it.

[Mrbeansman]

This^^, lowering the re-spawn time won't make a difference but LS's who bot can claim more often. Poping once a day lets LS's be able to sit around and bot claim more then once. Suck it up and get better at claiming or don't camp is about all you can do.

Remember when Sandworm and Dark Ixion came out and everyone cheered SE on for such a good idea of a multi zone/Area pop NM? Hi2u Death spot scanner, no matter what SE comes up with there will always be a way to get an edge over the competition. ("???" Spawned HNM's?) There are bots that can trade a pop before your F8 Spam even clicks on it. Sorry but its one of those "Just deal with it situations. :/

On a Side note I do hope they bring HNM's back hell 30 min between each window means I can afk and get real life stuff done, I afk for 30 min in abyssea and my LS is on the opposite side of the zone while I'm getting face raped by some mob attacking me. I will agree tho windows like Tiamat, WTF was SE thinking?

Edit: To be honest SE prob. didn't think people would ally face camp HNM's who knows, Maybe they though LS's would mule there and race out. Can't be mad at them for other people having time on there hands. :/

What I meant to say was if you want competition for mobs that drop the best gear in the game it's still there. It's just not your POS cockblock everyone for your giant epen competition.

[Zaknafein]

At this point in the game's life anything that retains players, or brings back ones who are retired is a plus. For people who love abyssea for w/e reason there is plenty of that to go around. Have a blast in the 9 zones.

For people who like to camp HNM's give em a couple to go do what they do. Make them a true challenge, where claiming is not 96% of the difficulty. Make them a true challenge to a lvl 90 alliance. Toss in a couple seriously devastating tp moves that it does at random twice or so every 10 mins. PLEASE do not place them in an abyssea zone.

For people who want to PvP SE needs to revamp the system so it is easily accessible, and located at the very least in a major hub say WG. Place is damn near empty now. Make it completely optional with a feature to ignore all requests for PvP.

Those are 3 viable choices that appeal to a wide range of players both hard core, and casual. Engage in all three if that what makes you happy. If there is an option there you don't care for avoid it. This caters to everyone, and does not crush the life out of any one faction.

[Randwolf]

New HNM should involve luck claiming AND intellect to kill it afterward. Now when i say intellect i mean something that requires every member of your party to be on the ball. A ??? NM like AV was a little extreme, everyone knew how to kill it but it required everyone to have a MDT set, be skilled at their job, ect. right now all most ppl are doing are crying because they scared of not claiming. Im sure the new BCNMs for KC/HKC will drop the stuff that the new HNM drop, only at a lower rate. But, this is only my speculation mind you.


To me, yes it does, it means all my hard work keepin track of ToD/not giving up paid off. It took me years to get D ring, fighting against botters up till the day i got it. So yea its of much more value to me then an eponas ring.

I'll have to say, of all the posts about 21 - 24 hour, single zone HNM's, yours seem the least informed as to what the HNM shells do. Even people in HNM's with bots pretty much wanted the old system to end. Because, it wasn't about luck. It was about who brought the most well-staggered set of bots to the zone. The only luck involved was when someone got lucky enough to beat out the bots. And, the HNM shells weren't impressed. They were chuckling because of someone's dumb luck. Honestly, taking years to get an item because you were losing to botters is as unimpressive as those who made all their claims through bots. So, if you're arguing to bring back that kind of HNM, you are in a true minority. Unless of course you're planning to run some bots this time. Otherwise, the bots will be back in force and you can lose to them for several more years.

p.s. - I never botted and even beat the bots on a couple occasions. But, I knew that it was dumb luck and laughed about it myself. The type of HNM you are arguing for should never return.

[Orson]

For people who like to camp HNM's give em a couple to go do what they do. Make them a true challenge, where claiming is not 96% of the difficulty. Make them a true challenge to a lvl 90 alliance. Toss in a couple seriously devastating tp moves that it does at random twice or so every 10 mins. PLEASE do not place them in an abyssea zone.

Oh please you sit there and say, "make it difficult" but fail to have any good or original ideas on how to do this. There 2 kinds of difficulty in games for the most part. First is gimmick and the second is attrition. Almost every encounter in a traditional RPG can be one or a combination of these 2 things.

For a gimmicky encounter it relies on it's surroundings, positioning, and other factors that are controlled usually by the player. Dark Ixion and Doomvoid versions of KA, Guirve, and Lambton are all gimmick based HNMs. Gimmick based encounters are as difficult as you want them to be. The problem is you learn the gimmick and the difficulty fades away.

Attrition was PW, literally inflict as much damage as possible on your players slowly killing them. This is very difficult to balance because as seen with PW players will just keep throwing PCs at the mob to hold it and slowly zerg it down. You make it too hard you end up with AV.

In short difficulty is only temporary on anything that can be killed. Making something more difficult just raises the number of players needed to take it down. This makes it harder to reward everyone in a fair way. Just having single item drops is a bad idea you're better off with point systems.

You could argue that reaction time is part of the difficulty but that's more part of gimmick like stunning Cerb's GoHs. This game would have to overhaul their combat massively to allow true action/reaction based gameplay.

TLDR: Difficulty is usually a fleeting feeling in an MMO because everything is repeated so much it becomes easy.


Finally on the heart of issue. Having free spawn NMs are fine as long you have every single reward on them able to be obtained at the exact same rate from an instanced version at the player's convenience. Having to live with your schedule centered around a game just to have a chance at the best gear nuts and pretty pathetic.

[Sasukeuchiha]

Oh please you sit there and say, "make it difficult" but fail to have any good or original ideas on how to do this. There 2 kinds of difficulty in games for the most part. First is gimmick and the second is attrition. Almost every encounter in a traditional RPG can be one or a combination of these 2 things.

For a gimmicky encounter it relies on it's surroundings, positioning, and other factors that are controlled usually by the player. Dark Ixion and Doomvoid versions of KA, Guirve, and Lambton are all gimmick based HNMs. Gimmick based encounters are as difficult as you want them to be. The problem is you learn the gimmick and the difficulty fades away.

Attrition was PW, literally inflict as much damage as possible on your players slowly killing them. This is very difficult to balance because as seen with PW players will just keep throwing PCs at the mob to hold it and slowly zerg it down. You make it too hard you end up with AV.

In short difficulty is only temporary on anything that can be killed. Making something more difficult just raises the number of players needed to take it down. This makes it harder to reward everyone in a fair way. Just having single item drops is a bad idea you're better off with point systems.

You could argue that reaction time is part of the difficulty but that's more part of gimmick like stunning Cerb's GoHs. This game would have to overhaul their combat massively to allow true action/reaction based gameplay.

TLDR: Difficulty is usually a fleeting feeling in an MMO because everything is repeated so much it becomes easy.


Finally on the heart of issue. Having free spawn NMs are fine as long you have every single reward on them able to be obtained at the exact same rate from an instanced version at the player's convenience. Having to live with your schedule centered around a game just to have a chance at the best gear nuts and pretty pathetic.

Well if you had an instance version of a mob that drop the same item them could solve alot of isues. Hnms just promote to much botting and is un fair if said gear only drops from them. Give some alternative, make the gear drop faster, or make it much lower then 21 to 24 hour pluss will solve alot of problem. Find a decent solution to get people off the mobs for good so other people have there fair chance at the nm. Everyone deserves there fair chance to get the gear not just people who want to bot.

[Natenn]

Theres no real point putting HNM drops in another BC unless BC is way harder, the best gear should be rare, not everyone should have it, the only ppl debating this are those who won't claim/lazy. They wan't everything equal so they wont look bad running around in old content equip while ppl who are good at the endgame scene have the new/good stuff.

Don't badmouth us bc you don't wanna spend time getting claims.

[Karbuncle]

Theres no real point putting HNM drops in another BC unless BC is way harder, the best gear should be rare, not everyone should have it, the only ppl debating this are those who won't claim/lazy. They wan't everything equal so they wont look bad running around in old content equip while ppl who are good at the endgame scene have the new/good stuff.

Don't badmouth us bc you don't wanna spend time getting claims.

That can be played both ways though. like say

"The only people arguing for it are those who want their expensive bots to be useful and can hoard the good gear over more casual players and feel pretty in town. "

But Both sides have multiple reason, and both can be looked at in a negative light, But I'm pretty sure everyone has their own reasons. Not everyone would stand by that reason i listed on your side of the argument, and not everyone on the other side would agree to your interpretation.

[Natenn]

Ppl think crying "bots bots bots" means HNM are bad, I never botted, i claimed. So world spawns are bad bc most ppl can't cut it? Thats not fair to the hardcoe base. SE gonna cater to everyone, not just 1 group of ppl.

[Orson]

Ppl think crying "bots bots bots" means HNM are bad, I never botted, i claimed. So world spawns are bad bc most ppl can't cut it? Thats not fair to the hardcoe base. SE gonna cater to everyone, not just 1 group of ppl.

That's the problem free spawn HNMs don't allow you to cater to both groups. If they could no HMN enthusiast would care if the equivalent gear could be obtained from else
where. Why shouldn't the instanced version have the best gear? See the problem is it's not about having both. Free spawn HNMs are based around exclusion not challenge. If you really think it is, why not make a retarded strong HNM that has a special title that you only get at a 10% drop rate? Don't lie all you care about is the gear and doing your best to keep it from others.

I've said before too but I'll say it again. The supposed hardcore player that you refer to is largely gone and even the few that still are around are the worst players to try and please. If SE wants to keep making money they need to keep releasing accessible content. It doesn't have to be dumbed down or stupidly easy but it has to be able to be done at the players leisure and with smaller groups.

[Zaknafein]

Yeah I bot claim all day on console.. oh wait. Seriously there is an unreal amount of crying over this issue. Saying that every casual player should have the same shot at gear that comes from camping, and killing HNM is silly. If I'm gonna fight botter's/heavy competition I want it to be for something rare. I am all for the "have that same gear in Einherjar" system. At least every whack casual couldn't stroll into Einherjar, and brew/zombie their way to decent gear.

[Natenn]

This is why Twilight gear has no meaning behind it, anyone can kill it bc of brew. Anyone can get title np. Who cares about why you do or don't want new world spawn HNM? Having the best stuff should be earned, not givin to you on a silver plate like abyssea. Long windows cut the flow of items so that not only are they actually good, but rare to see. Not like twilight mail where you see a WAR full time it + helm with 0% haste. We all pay to play, don't preach this "i want my way only" stuff just cause you don't like the thought of HNM. They'll add stuff besides HNM, seems your only focus is to badmouth world spawns just cause you don't wanna lose to others.

[Runespider]

Yeah I bot claim all day on console.. oh wait. Seriously there is an unreal amount of crying over this issue. Saying that every casual player should have the same shot at gear that comes from camping, and killing HNM is silly. If I'm gonna fight botter's/heavy competition I want it to be for something rare. I am all for the "have that same gear in Einherjar" system. At least every whack casual couldn't stroll into Einherjar, and brew/zombie their way to decent gear.

You don't have to bot yourself to benefit from it, friend of mine never botted but he joined a shell he knew were one of the biggest bot claiming shells on the server, he still benefitted greatly from botting. It's like living with a drug dealer, you may not deal yourself but you cetainly get to live in a nicer house with nicer things around you. I don't mind gear being rare or very few being able to get it, I just don't want stinking botters to get it over others having had to deal with them for years.


This is why Twilight gear has no meaning behind it, anyone can kill it bc of brew. Anyone can get title np. Who cares about why you do or don't want new world spawn HNM?

See what this whole thing was always about was "I don't really want compeition or difficult fights...I just want gear others don't have so I can afk in port with it while I'm in bed dreaming about others checking my char ;-; also please let them be bottable so I can forcably stop others getting it ><;" I did HNM for over 4 years I know exactly how it works, the mentality of the players that do them and the driving forces behind doing them.

These new HNM will be a good sign if the devs learned anything, if they really do add hnm as they did in the past after how many complaints they had from good endgame players at the vanafests etc and how much they knew botting was abused well...they are a lost cause.

As far as I'm concerned make the fights really damn hard, put harsh time restrictions on them too, but just let everyone be able to try it. WoW for all the bashing is popular because everyone gets to at least try all the endgame raids, win or fail they can at least say they lost due to not being good enough instead of not having the correct bot system. Half the NMs in abyssea were very challenging if not for curor buffs and atams so they can certainly make difficult nms.

People say that once information gets out about how to kill them any NM is easy, so like if your in a top tier shell and think this...don't share the info if thats what you want? You put the information out there on BG for anyone to read and you are giving people an easy win, same as what hapened with AV...this applies even more if the fights are out of public view. Stop sharing information if you don't want everyone being able to do them, you make your own situation. Either you want to help everyone do this stuff or you don't, can't have it both ways.

[Randwolf]

I don't care what S/E does with it so long as bots are marginalized or are completely worthless for the claim. I saw an idea in the thread where it remains unclaimed for a short period and then chooses off its hate list of people who have acted upon it. That's not a bad idea.

Another idea would be to use the proc system to claim. Where it stays yellow until the randomized appropriate action has been performed upon it then that person has claim. Also, make it choose from a list that has an exclusive job ability or spell for every job. So, all jobs have value in coming to the HNM pop. Not just a few select jobs.

Finally, for anyone talking about a 6 man party, if you can win with less than an alliance, then this isn't the HNM people have been asking for.

[Cream_Soda]

besides HNM, seems your only focus is to badmouth world spawns just cause you don't wanna lose to others.
Not at all, a large number of people in the thread have been there, done that, been successful, are better geared, are better players than you, still don't agree, and just feel its a retarded, outdated system. Not because they don't want to lose to others.

[Natenn]

Not you. Im saying ppl QQ bc they assume anyone who likes HNM are botters which is not true.

[Cream_Soda]

Not you. Im saying ppl QQ bc they assume anyone who likes HNM are botters which is not true.
Every individual no, but every even half reputable HNM on any server had members who botted.

[Cream_Soda]

I personally don't care either way about botting, however, I just find 21-24 hours to be a retarded idea/concept.

[Zaknafein]

I don't care what S/E does with it so long as bots are marginalized or are completely worthless for the claim. I saw an idea in the thread where it remains unclaimed for a short period and then chooses off its hate list of people who have acted upon it. That's not a bad idea.

Another idea would be to use the proc system to claim. Where it stays yellow until the randomized appropriate action has been performed upon it then that person has claim. Also, make it choose from a list that has an exclusive job ability or spell for every job. So, all jobs have value in coming to the HNM pop. Not just a few select jobs.

Finally, for anyone talking about a 6 man party, if you can win with less than an alliance, then this isn't the HNM people have been asking for.

Oooh I like that Randwolf. Like a weakness trigger to get claim. That is an excellent idea sir! Hopefully someone official see's this. If that could be implemented on existing HNM as well it would be awesome x2 Could make HNM's melee attacks count like Iron Giants for stagger purposes. That sounds as if it would go a long ways towards disrupting current botting practices.

[Dazusu]

Every individual no, but every even half reputable HNM on any server had members who botted.

You'll find plenty of botters who hate HNM, and that part of the community. Botting isn't restricted to HNMLS members.