Oh look more swords blu cant use! >.>

[Ezekieal]

Talekeeper Rare Exclusive
Sword
DMG:55 Delay:224
HP+50 MP+50 STR+10 VIT+10
Resistance against terror
Lv90 WAR RDM PLD BRD DRG COR DNC

and

Sagasinger Rare Exclusive
Sword
DMG:56 Delay:218
HP+75 MP+75 STR+15 VIT+15
Resistance against terror
Additional effect:
Steals enhancement effect
Lv90 WAR RDM PLD BRD DRG COR DNC

Fresh from the dat mining..... WTF SE why do brd drg cor and dnc get to use and not blu???

Yall in the dev team need your heads checked!

[Aeonk]

We get access to the best sword out there (Almace). Who cares?

[Ezekieal]

yeah but would be sic to offhand these (especially the one with add. effect: steals enhancement), and dont get me started on Almace, i am 18/50 sobek skins and i doubt i will be able to get anymore soon. Guku's Aery is absolutely F**KING retarded with all the botters and big ls's monopalizing spawns

also not every blu will be able to get almace so what you say is a non-point.

in any case the fact remains we got boned yet again.

[RaenRyong]

not to mention they may be nerfing our Efflux!

STR15 VIT15 for QC though ; ;

[ShadowHeart]

i kind of liking the tyrfing still atm but cant argue one of these would go very nice with it ^^

[Ezekieal]

Yeah would of been lovely for QC and Delta Thrust

and yeah if they nerf Efflux imma be mad as hell.

I have seen the icon for these swords now and they are Rapier style swords, so that explains why we cant wield
having said that not getting a new sword still hurts (there is one with +7 AGI but it is obviously useless).

[ShadowHeart]

i kind of laugh more at this

Dagda's Shield Rare
Shield
DEF:29 "Cure" potency +5% Enmity+6
Shield size 3
Lv90 PLD DRK

wooohooo gonna put this shield + 5% on my dark and cure people now >< now drk will have a roll in abyssea LMAO


rdm i can understand.... or whm but drk LMFAO typical SE

[Cerelyn]

its for pld, duh!

[ShadowHeart]

yes pld i can understand but its pld/drk .... LOL <inserts sarcasm to previous post>

[Kyrial]

Fresh from the dat mining..... WTF SE why do brd drg cor and dnc get to use and not blu???

Yall in the dev team need your heads checked!

You can't see it just from that text you posted, but if you look at the icons, they are rapier-type swords. Rapiers are usually usable by BRD, DRG, COR, and DNC, and are NEVER useable by BLU (with the lone exception of Lex Talionis). Just like DNC can't use baselard type daggers, but jobs like SCH can. (Which, back when Blau Dolch was still a big deal, pissed off DNCs to no end.)

But, I know many people will just say "who cares? we should still be able to use it because it's a sword and I think it looks cool and I waaaaaaant to, wahhhhhh!!" :P

[Ezekieal]

You can't see it just from that text you posted, but if you look at the icons, they are rapier-type swords. Rapiers are usually usable by BRD, DRG, COR, and DNC, and are NEVER useable by BLU (with the lone exception of Lex Talionis). Just like DNC can't use baselard type daggers, but jobs like SCH can. (Which, back when Blau Dolch was still a big deal, pissed off DNCs to no end.)

But, I know many people will just say "who cares? we should still be able to use it because it's a sword and I think it looks cool and I waaaaaaant to, wahhhhhh!!" :P

Yeah i did notice lol



I have seen the icon for these swords now and they are Rapier style swords, so that explains why we cant wield
having said that not getting a new sword still hurts (there is one with +7 AGI but it is obviously useless).

Just wish it wasnt Rapier style cos those stats are sexy ; ;

[Fyreus]

This stuff is really QQ worthy. Never thought i'd get upset over this...

[Mirage]

Man am I gonna offhand this on war.

[Lazus]

never did get why drg are on rapier type, i mean when was the last time a drg was like "Screw this Polearm that I have a A+ skill with, let pick up that sword with C- with and don't even have any ws that i could proc with".
Honestly these swords don't bother me too much, but then again i worked hard on getting my str magian sword and going for a almace, although have some swords blu can use with neat effects would be fun like stealing enhancements.

[Zagen]

never did get why drg are on rapier type, i mean when was the last time a drg was like "Screw this Polearm that I have a A+ skill with, let pick up that sword with C- with and don't even have any ws that i could proc with".
Honestly these swords don't bother me too much, but then again i worked hard on getting my str magian sword and going for a almace, although have some swords blu can use with neat effects would be fun like stealing enhancements.
Years ago in end game people used them for Spirits Within spamming when that was the cool way to do damage and DRG was lolDRG. I honestly don't think that was SE's intention but that's what the player base did with it at the time.

[Lazus]

Years ago in end game people used them for Spirits Within spamming when that was the cool way to do damage and DRG was lolDRG. I honestly don't think that was SE's intention but that's what the player base did with it at the time.

oh yea forgot about those days, probably for good reason,

[Scuro]

Oh PFFT! Ok BS I'm calling shinanigans on this, since when the hell did SE care about what type of sword we are using? I mean hell when they give RDM an AF3 that adds no native DD stats for a gear that in translation "One who uses a tuck style weapon" I mean that is almost so lolable it hurts. And also, we are using weapons that have no curve to them being completely not what the BLU is from its opening desctiption as a job class. I mean in all seriousness.... since when did they actually care enough to give us weapons that fit our job class. They still both do the same type of damage, so what does it even matter. SE are you telling me you are going to stick to this crap about a tuck style weapon not being usable by BLU's and yet you can't come up with shimitar weapons that a BLU can actually use? Aside from Isador....? Like Tyrfing for instance.... why in the hell can't that model be a BLU's almace model, or something. I mean if you're going to be such a stickler for weapon models, how about you go the full f*cking mile instead of jogging for a block and fetching a Big Gulp slurpie at the Seven Eleven.

[Kwate]

I understand people being upset about this, but to be blunt, put some effort and do a WOE (so easy to achieve) or Empyrean if you have more time to grind. This is what's going to separate your BLU.

[Volkai]

Oh PFFT! Ok BS I'm calling shinanigans on this, since when the hell did SE care about what type of sword we are using?

Always. Categorically speaking, Blue Mages cannot use Bastard Swords, Bilbos, Epees, Longswords, or Rapiers. There are individual exceptions, like ToM weapons or the Platoon Spatha, but they are exceptions.

[Charismatic]

Yeah, all that's true but why didn't they just make these be swords that were of a type BLU could equip? That's the real question... sup with that?

[Ciecle]

because it would have to have been a broadsword(and we all know broadswords are ulgy...). Meaning all classes that can use swords can use it. I personally do not care about the sword, maybe because i have almace, but personal opinion i'm glad it's a rapier, means 'Probably' later on, there might be a scimitar, broadsword, etc. like it... who knows.

[Volkai]

Yeah, all that's true but why didn't they just make these be swords that were of a type BLU could equip? That's the real question... sup with that?

Who is the sword named after? What weapon did they use?

[Charismatic]

You act as if it's difficult for them to have just used a different name instead... they obviously didn't want BLU on these swords for whatever reason, that's the point here.
Why didn't they? Seems silly.

[Volkai]

You act as if it's difficult for them to have just used a different name instead... they obviously didn't want BLU on these swords for whatever reason, that's the point here.
Why didn't they? Seems silly.

You're coming at this from the wrong angle. It's not about which jobs can use it, not to the people that made the item. It's about the story.

Raogrimm wielded a Rapier. There is a certain list of jobs that usually can or cannot wield Rapiers. This is clearly Raogrim's weapon, and therefore the job list on it will be that of a Rapier. End of story.

Had they made it a different weapon type, or named it something else, then it would not have been Raogrimm's weapon, an therefore likely would have been started differently.

TL;DR - stats are based on lore.

[Charismatic]

Sounds like excuses to me.

[Volkai]

Sounds like excuses to me.

Then you should have your 'ears' checked.

[Xilk]

Then you should have your 'ears' checked.

I think the lore fits together fine, but I don't think thats why blue don't have it. Frankly this trumps so many blue magian swords.

You get the mp of a level 90 macc/trial.
HP for currently non-used breath builds.
The dps is only a tier below Almace.
You have better than the 10 STR from a magian str sword
better than teh 10 vit from a magian VIT sword
resist terror & steal enemy enhancements...

This sword is jailbait for a blue mage. Blue mage will get more use out of this combination of buffs than probably any other job.
For any spellcasting blue, this would most anything for physical spells. A very nice boost to QC & DT.

SE seems to have had alot of trolling us in the gear this update. Methinks they are being sneaky.

[Zagen]

I think the lore fits together fine, but I don't think thats why blue don't have it. Frankly this trumps so many blue magian swords.

If you think the lore fits then you'd understand why BLU isn't on it... Consistency when it comes to the lore is one of the things SE has kept up with.



You get the mp of a level 90 macc/trial.
+MP has never been important for any mage job let alone BLU so this isn't a selling point to what makes this sword great.


HP for currently non-used breath builds.
Breath builds have been dead for a while because a lot of our spells can do much more damage and take far less time to cast and recast.


The dps is only a tier below Almace.
Until getting Almace DPS is of little value because that WS changes the way the job is played, until then 80-90% of your damage will be from spells.

Our best WS is Vorpal Blade aside from Almace if you gear/atma for it. Also the Attack and in some cases the Accuracy will do more for it than STR+1/VIT+10

Our most consistent WS is Saguine which cares not about DMG(excluding dark/magic resist mobs).

Our most used WS is Savage Blade, and for some Expiation both of which have much lower overall damage potential than the 3 I just mentioned. Yes they can break 1.8k (well savage has for me) but that isn't the norm.

Also it is a Rapier which has always had lowest delay of the sword classes so this is really a bad example as if it was a BLU friendly sword the delay would be higher reducing the DPS.

----------------------------------------------------------

It is a very nice sword that has situational uses at best even for the jobs that can use it. Stop whining over the fact BLU isn't on it and focus on other gear that BLU can use >.> though I guess this forum is more prone to whining over trying excel.

[Volkai]

If you think the lore fits then you'd understand why BLU isn't on it... Consistency when it comes to the lore is one of the things SE has kept up with.
Agreed.



----------------------------------------------------------

It is a very nice sword that has situational uses at best even for the jobs that can use it. Stop whining over the fact BLU isn't on it and focus on other gear that BLU can use >.> though I guess this forum is more prone to whining over trying excel.

See also 95% of all MMORPG-related 'public' forums.

[Xilk]

It is a very nice sword that has situational uses at best even for the jobs that can use it. Stop whining over the fact BLU isn't on it and focus on other gear that BLU can use >.> though I guess this forum is more prone to whining over trying excel.
eh? who's whining?

I was just pointing out interesting comparisons about the sword... IF blu could use it. As you say, its a nice sword.

I play the job differently for different situations, so actually I do rely on melee dps sometimes w/out Almace.
MP has been a significant point for my galka blu when not in abyssea. There have been a number of solo situations where just a little more mp would have made the difference in the fight.

It is just as easy for a dev to put the stats on a different sword. I don't believe lore is why the devs gave it to other jobs and not blu. They either didn't consider blu because of the lore as you say, or they didn't want blu to have this particular combination. Your opinion and mine are equally valid unless they actually explain the decision... so relax a bit.

I think you actually meant to respond to someone else. I'm interested in the sword, but in no ways do I feel cheated because blu didn't get it.. If I want to toy w/ it that badly I'll level a job that can use it. :P

[Volkai]

eh? who's whining?

This is all the whining (as I perceive it) in the thread:


Fresh from the dat mining..... WTF SE why do brd drg cor and dnc get to use and not blu???

Yall in the dev team need your heads checked!



This stuff is really QQ worthy. Never thought i'd get upset over this...



Oh PFFT! Ok BS I'm calling shinanigans on this, since when the hell did SE care about what type of sword we are using? I mean hell when they give RDM an AF3 that adds no native DD stats for a gear that in translation "One who uses a tuck style weapon" I mean that is almost so lolable it hurts. And also, we are using weapons that have no curve to them being completely not what the BLU is from its opening desctiption as a job class. I mean in all seriousness.... since when did they actually care enough to give us weapons that fit our job class. They still both do the same type of damage, so what does it even matter. SE are you telling me you are going to stick to this crap about a tuck style weapon not being usable by BLU's and yet you can't come up with shimitar weapons that a BLU can actually use? Aside from Isador....? Like Tyrfing for instance.... why in the hell can't that model be a BLU's almace model, or something. I mean if you're going to be such a stickler for weapon models, how about you go the full f*cking mile instead of jogging for a block and fetching a Big Gulp slurpie at the Seven Eleven.



Yeah, all that's true but why didn't they just make these be swords that were of a type BLU could equip? That's the real question... sup with that?



SE seems to have had alot of trolling us in the gear this update. Methinks they are being sneaky.

[Zagen]

eh? who's whining?

I was just pointing out interesting comparisons about the sword... IF blu could use it. As you say, its a nice sword.

I play the job differently for different situations, so actually I do rely on melee dps sometimes w/out Almace.
MP has been a significant point for my galka blu when not in abyssea. There have been a number of solo situations where just a little more mp would have made the difference in the fight.

It is just as easy for a dev to put the stats on a different sword. I don't believe lore is why the devs gave it to other jobs and not blu. They either didn't consider blu because of the lore as you say, or they didn't want blu to have this particular combination. Your opinion and mine are equally valid unless they actually explain the decision... so relax a bit.

I think you actually meant to respond to someone else. I'm interested in the sword, but in no ways do I feel cheated because blu didn't get it.. If I want to toy w/ it that badly I'll level a job that can use it. :P
I guess this part:

----------------------------------------------------------
Wasn't clear enough to denote it wasn't targeted at you specifically. My points toward your post were above it which is why your quotes have a response right below them above the dashed line.

As Volkai pointed out there is a lot of whining going on in this thread.

[renasci]

Well sure, Lore says we can't have access to the rapiers (nice as they may be) .... But where's my BLU equipable Seiryu's Sword and Ridill? Falchions both.

[katz]

We get access to the best sword out there (Almace). Who cares?

When I got to the NM Rabbit Trial and Team up with a full alliance of 18 people looking for it, I suddenly came to the conclusion that 18 x 50 Briaus Helms that dropped 1 or 2 per run was an awful lot of work and time waiting for people to finish with the NMs. This was only to get to the first stage of the Almac. Yes I care that there are other swords made available for it.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Because all 18 of those people will be working on the nms at the exact same time as you? it's not like you can't pop more than one briareus now... the former 3 don't take long to kill unless you're doing something horribly wrong.

[katz]

Because all 18 of those people will be working on the nms at the exact same time as you? it's not like you can't pop more than one briareus now... the former 3 don't take long to kill unless you're doing something horribly wrong.
They fought the same NMs at the same time I did to get to it. Even with 3 briareus popped thats still only min 3 max 6 drops per fight. KI Farming 18 times for 3 popsets and I still will need time for my sword. Im not saying Im not getting the Almac but merely what do I use in the mean time.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Isador/Mageblade are fairly easy to get until you finish Totm swords/Almace/WoE+2 Sword.

[Scuro]

ya I'm rock'n a Shamshir +2 STR sword and an Isador, and they do me good, at least until I can get my almace. Its just so disappointing that SE can't give us, who would actually use such a good sword, the ability to use such a weapon as the Sagsinger..... SE, waita rock that troll face bro.... Giving RDM no native DD abilities, no AF3 gear that even so much as ball park gives RDM DD stats.... and yet you give them a Sagsinger..... Waita go!

P.S
Volkai its not whining when your stating the obvious ignorance, K thanks.

[Rearden]

You'll get an Almace before you ever get Arch DL drops.

Just sayin'.

[StingRay104]

ya I'm rock'n a Shamshir +2 STR sword and an Isador, and they do me good, at least until I can get my almace. Its just so disappointing that SE can't give us, who would actually use such a good sword, the ability to use such a weapon as the Sagsinger..... SE, waita rock that troll face bro.... Giving RDM no native DD abilities, no AF3 gear that even so much as ball park gives RDM DD stats.... and yet you give them a Sagsinger..... Waita go!

P.S
Volkai its not whining when your stating the obvious ignorance, K thanks.

It could be worst, you could be a job with no mp that only gets mage gear every update like pup. I agree with so many points on this issue about SE being quite ignorant with their gear, but I will say this, SE decides to create a weapon based on lore first, then they stat it ou based on that lore, and finally decides who gets it. Thats how they've done every weapon in the game so far and it has caused some conflicts, for instance Gungnir is the name for Odin's spear but when they made Odin in Toau they didn't give him Gungnir they gave him a new spear called Valkyrie's Fork, which does make since seeing as Odin's army consisted of warriors called valkyries, but all in all SE is about trying to find names for alot of gear that their culture doesn't know so much about. I will always agree with anyone who questions why some jobs get certain useless gear and not useful gear IE: Drg gets joytoy but not Hauby (before lvl cap raise), but with weapons they have always gone with this lore first mentality. I know its sucks and these news weapons could be quite useful on blu and SE should take more consideration into the items they put into games but its not likely to happen IE: new set gear, PUP yet again gets great access to Mag Att, MP, and all the stats a mage would kill for.......with no native mp or spells.....Good Job SE.

[Defiledsickness]

well it's not like SE HAD to make it a rapier, so they obviously didn't want blu to have it. honestly Almace makes Blu so much of a melee DD that im sure they didn't want us to offhand these swords. Blu has to be a somewhat difficult job or it would become the only job used (like nin).

i dont really see how a rdm would need this more then a blu tho, but at least PLD gets it. Rdm is still a great DD as it always was, basically a dot beast who must never get hit. its not as easy as nin since rdm hasn't gotten any improvements to its shadow tools, but with shell5 rdm is still great.

so yes it sucks we don't get it, but its not a huge deal.

[Rearden]

well it's not like SE HAD to make it a rapier, so they obviously didn't want blu to have it. honestly Almace makes Blu so much of a melee DD that im sure they didn't want us to offhand these swords. Blu has to be a somewhat difficult job or it would become the only job used (like nin).

i dont really see how a rdm would need this more then a blu tho, but at least PLD gets it. Rdm is still a great DD as it always was, basically a dot beast who must never get hit. its not as easy as nin since rdm hasn't gotten any improvements to its shadow tools, but with shell5 rdm is still great.

so yes it sucks we don't get it, but its not a huge deal.

......what?

[Scuro]

I wouldn't say RDM is a "Great DD" hence the vision SE planned out for them is to be enfeebler/buffers not DDs, yet what I will say is that they "Can DD". That is a more fitting description of their capability on the front line. As I've said 100 times, DD RDMs out there, if you want to be a DD RDM, be a BLU.... its the reason the class was invented lol.

[Ryozen]

It could be worst, you could be a job with no mp that only gets mage gear every update like pup.... ...PUP yet again gets great access to Mag Att, MP, and all the stats a mage would kill for.......with no native mp or spells.....Good Job SE.
Mage gear like this: http://ffxi.gamerescape.com/wiki/Cirque_Attire_%2B2_Set
and this: http://ffxi.gamerescape.com/wiki/Usukane_Haramaki_Set

Right?

I'm pretty sure the folks over in the RDM melee thread would splooge on themselves for access to that sort of gear.

[Defiledsickness]

what is INT for on pup? reduces chance of overloading?

but Rdm IS a good DD. back at 80 cap you would choose Rdm to solo almost every NM in abyssea (first 3 zones). Because you have magic defense that no other job gets (you're not soloing on whm), you can /nin and have stoneskin+blink+phalanx, protect, aquaveil, bar-spells, and awesome enfeebles. the part that makes rdm not a GREAT DD is that it takes forever to kill something with auto-attack. but add an almace and you've fixed the problem. i've trio'd Dark Ixion quite a few times more recently and Nin+kannagi and Rdm+Almace are interchangeable tanks for him. and the only way they swapped hate was Dmg and taking dmg of course. (1-2k ws's outside abyssea is good in my book)

and rdm can use all the trial swords (staves too i believe). the reason the community normally would nuke over straight-DDing is because Rdm has gravity and Blizzard 4 is more impressive then melee dmg. if you already have a DD job tho, you should have great gear for your rdm. Atheling Mantle, brutal earring, raja's ring, etc.

Edit: ok let me change it; rdm is not a great DD, rdm is a great soloing job and a survivable DD. drk is a great DD but drk is not great for soloing :P

[Prothscar]

drk is a great DD

:| :| :| :| :|

[Zagen]

:| :| :| :| :|

Compared to melee RDM it is >.> LOL not that that's saying much

[Defiledsickness]

i didnt mean in abyssea trying to crit ws geez. at some point take the complete literal sense and tone it down a notch. more understanding, less trying to prove people wrong.

i picked drk because drk would get owned trying to solo. can replace it with drg or war if you want. or w/e an actual DD is these days... i guess you can just keep my comment about Rdm being good. i mean you can do as much on Rdm as you can on blu, nin, or dnc. if you're a spam spells blu DD then you dont know much anyways :P

the only downfall to rdm is you have to use Slashing dmg, and Vorpal Blade isn't very impressive. the upside is you dont need MM because you have refresh2.

[Zagen]

i didnt mean in abyssea trying to crit ws geez. at some point take the complete literal sense and tone it down a notch. more understanding, less trying to prove people wrong.

i picked drk because drk would get owned trying to solo. can replace it with drg or war if you want. or w/e an actual DD is these days... i guess you can just keep my comment about Rdm being good. i mean you can do as much on Rdm as you can on blu, nin, or dnc. if you're a spam spells blu DD then you dont know much anyways :P

the only downfall to rdm is you have to use Slashing dmg, and Vorpal Blade isn't very impressive. the upside is you dont need MM because you have refresh2.

RDM DD sucks inside and outside of Abyssea when compared to a traditional DD job.

DRK/NIN is actually a fairly good soloer with Drain/2, Dread Spikes, Weapon Bash, Stun, Absorb spells.

If you're attempting to RDM DD you shouldn't be using sword to DD unless you have Almace. Dagger's speed combined with En-spell damage as well as Eviseration > Vorpal Blade. Also Vorpal Blade is only available to RDM with these subs /WAR, /DRK, /BLU, or /PLD. Only /BLU is a good solo option and that's situational.

[Defiledsickness]

but you cant to magian trials for daggers on rdm. you can get great PDT- set with 1 or 2 -10% sword. also MAB swords to keep your TP through occ. nukes or m.acc swords. i just like swords, highest skill and fully merited :P i've never done great dmg with daggers and havent seen any good ones Rdm can use. i agree sword WS dmg is lame save Almace, but blu/pld get sanguine blade which is hot for restoring HP (rdm completely shafted on WS's that fit the job :P)

if they give Rdm new defensive buffs (magic stoneskin? blink2? migawari-type buff?) you could possibly rdm/drk with stun you'd be like blu/rdm.

[Scuro]

The only flaw you have in your argument when it comes to DD RDM, is that its RDM.... You spelt it wrong its DD BLU. Thats the whole reason why this class was created, and its the reason why SE has announced the door being slammed on the noses of DD RDMs everywhere by saying "No no no RDMs! You naughty naughtys! Your back line buffers and enfeeblers!" RDM/DRK will never rival BLU's stuns.... ever. our recast is rediculous and reduced by +1/+2 Mavi Bazubands, on top of the native fast casts we are open to. RDM's been beating the dead horse by sticking to the one description that RDM is a "Jack of All Trades" so of course its mean to DD RIGHT!?.... No BLU has been now given that definition as it should be to begin with, not only can we do multiple elements of magic damage, but we can also do multiple types of physical damage (slashing, piercing, blunt) more effectively then any RDM could ever hope to dream to do. Also we are the one's given WS's like Vorpal Blade and not RDM... I mean I just don't understand why RDMs are so determined to hold their stubborn ground on making a class that is given more mage gear then DD gear, into a DD class. It is clearly a backline job, and if it wasn't already made clear by the creation of BLU or the community, SE has pretty much knocked on your door, and said to your face "Your wrong" with the FFXI Manifesto.

[Zagen]

RDM doesn't need Magian trials for dagger setup to work.

Usually I'd ignore your posts but boy is there a lot of misinformation in it...


The only flaw you have in your argument when it comes to DD RDM, is that its RDM.... You spelt it wrong its DD BLU. Thats the whole reason why this class was created, and its the reason why SE has announced the door being slammed on the noses of DD RDMs everywhere by saying "No no no RDMs! You naughty naughtys! Your back line buffers and enfeeblers!"
SE never shut the door if they did RDM wouldn't be on Almace or any Sword trials.


RDM/DRK will never rival BLU's stuns....
RDM/DRK or RDM/BLM might not have as short of a recast as Head Butt, but it does have better consistancy... Let's not forget when you're going to Stun lock for a zerg you bring a RDM to Chainspell Stun not a BLU to Head Butt.


RDM's been beating the dead horse by sticking to the one description that RDM is a "Jack of All Trades" so of course its mean to DD RIGHT!?.... No BLU has been now given that definition as it should be to begin with, not only can we do multiple elements of magic damage, but we can also do multiple types of physical damage (slashing, piercing, blunt) more effectively then any RDM could ever hope to dream to do.
Outside of SE Apollyon who gives a damn about different damage types, that's a situational concern at best? As to elemental nukes the only thing we have over RDM that actually matters is AoE nukes and that's situational at best. Nothing in the game resists all elements besides Light and Dark which means a RDM will always nuke better than BLU.


Also we are the one's given WS's like Vorpal Blade and not RDM... I mean I just don't understand why RDMs are so determined to hold their stubborn ground on making a class that is given more mage gear then DD gear, into a DD class. It is clearly a backline job, and if it wasn't already made clear by the creation of BLU or the community, SE has pretty much knocked on your door, and said to your face "Your wrong" with the FFXI Manifesto.
RDM doesn't need Vorpal Blade to DD. As to your logic of "a class that is given more mage gear then DD gear" tell that to a PUP see how far that gets you... Again the fact RDM is on Excalibur, Mandau, and Almace definitely tell me SE wanted RDM to be a backline job(sarcasm if you can't tell). What SE intended and what the community decided works are two very different things.

I understand this is a BLU forum but really if you're going to bash another job to make BLU sound superior do it right or don't even bother.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Eh.... Best geared Blu is at least 20-30% better than max geared Rdm assuming no CA/Efflux/Enspells, so he does have a point in that regard. But imo Blu wasn't introduced to be 'melee rdm', it was introduced since it was an original job in FF lore and to promote buying TAU.

[Defiledsickness]

im not saying Rdm is a better DD then Blu, im saying rdm can DD. i didnt say it will outparse a blu in dynamis, i said it has good survivability. blu cant tank the stuff rdm can, trust me i have died a lot on blu. (blu/rdm/sch/war/pld/dnc/smn/brd/whm at lvl 90)

[Kwate]

Our Phalanx (hopefully) should change that.

[Prothscar]

Name something that a RDM can tank and a BLU can't, I'm having some trouble understanding what tools RDM has that gives it so much of an advantage that it can tank more mobs than a BLU can.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Can't think of anything due to nerfs etc.

[Ryozen]

Large-scale tanking where the BLU is being backed up by a WHM and a BRD, there may not be much difference.

Low-man or solo, a RDM requires less support due to Composure'd Phalanx, Aquaveil, Haste, Refresh II, a cheaper/higher-absorb SS, and better Fast Cast.

Good luck keeping hate on the RDM these days, though.

[Kwate]

RDM has Pro/Shell, Phalanx, Convert (useless while tanking) as an advantage over us in that regard. Our haste and refresh is 5min, which is very manageable, cocoon helps close the gap with said advantages of RDM. In regards to SS, while it's nice Occult gives us much more versatility while tanking. BLU's have a plethora of mp efficient hate control spells (ie. Actinic Burst, Jettura, etc.) as well as JA's that allow for spike damage to maintain control or to retrieve it once its lost.

[Prothscar]

Pro/Shell shouldn't really be a factor, if you're tanking you're probably getting more potent Shell from a WHM, or at least comparable Shell from another support job. SS is inefficient when it comes to casting it mid-fight, and is also somewhat chancy as Aquaveil won't always protect you for the full cast. Phalanx is nice, but Cocoon isn't very far behind in terms of pure damage reduction, though I'm not saying it's as good obviously, and is almost negligible when considering Utsusemi + Occultation. Fast Cast shouldn't be required for you to be able to tank.

[Scuro]

Grats Zagen, you get to use certain weapons (and good job pointing out weapons that were BEFORE SE told you to you're face that you are a BUFFING and ENFEEBLING Class in the manifesto, but hey, I guess some people just can't shake their denial that they have been playing the class wrong, thinking it was right). Also if you can point out to me where RDM got a single DD JA or when RDM actually recieved Fencer, I might even consider you're opinion as well.... more then what it is, opinion.

And yes as far as I'm concerned, there is nothing anymore that a RDM can do that a BLU can't in terms of solo ability. Check out a BLU solo'n Proto Omega and tell me differ. The ONLY thing you're class has up on us is a faster cast that can get buffs up a lot quicker then we can, and sure thats great, yet what RDMs probably haven't considered out of their selfish solo-dd-sword-masterbation is that maybe, just maybe.... that was intended for you to buff the party QUICKER then to buff you're self.... Just saying.

[Zagen]

Grats Zagen, you get to use certain weapons (and good job pointing out weapons that were BEFORE SE told you to you're face that you are a BUFFING and ENFEEBLING Class in the manifesto, but hey, I guess some people just can't shake their denial that they have been playing the class wrong, thinking it was right). Also if you can point out to me where RDM got a single DD JA or when RDM actually recieved Fencer, I might even consider you're opinion as well.... more then what it is, opinion.

First don't assume, I never said I agreed with SE on RDM being a DD job even back in 2003. I was just pointing out the errors in your post because they were quite bad.

Secondly Composure was SE's attempt to bring RDM back to the front with the +15 ACC bonus. There's your 1 DD related JA, not that I'm saying it was enough just that it was a legitimate attempt on SE's part to bring back their vision. How about how Enspell 2 spells all cap at what a Dual Wielding RDM's Enspell would cap at, allowing a RDM/NIN to not only get the damage from enspell but get the boost of a DNC in the party (unless they nerfed offhand samba proc, don't play RDM DD or with a DNC often so dunno if this has changed). Do you mean the manifesto which talks about jobs in the light that the community gave them and not what was necessarily originally intended by SE's design team?

[Ryozen]

I'm pretty sure the reason people use Composure is not for the +15 ACC.

The Jobs Manifesto wasn't written by the Community Team. I'm not even sure how you came up with that idea, other than perhaps that it was posted by a Community Team member. If you honestly think that it came from the Community Team and not the Dev Team, I don't know what to say to you.

[Zagen]

I'm pretty sure the reason people use Composure is not for the +15 ACC.
How we use what gets implemented doesn't mean it was designed that way. If it was designed to keep RDM in the back it wouldn't have had any ACC bonus on it at all.

Look at NIN as a tank, SE fought long and hard to insist we were doing it wrong before giving in and going with NIN tank.


The Jobs Manifesto wasn't written by the Community Team. I'm not even sure how you came up with that idea, other than perhaps that it was posted by a Community Team member. If you honestly think that it came from the Community Team and not the Dev Team, I don't know what to say to you.
Community as in the player base... SE has realized what they intended for how jobs would be played is not what happened, and not what the player base has done with the jobs. They(likely the new dev team) have begun to acknowledge this over the past few years and have begun to cater to how we play jobs instead of the original vision of the job.

[Defiledsickness]

war has defender but you dont see anyone using it on War main. you can always play any job in any way. even whm can do decent dmg melee.

[Neisan_Quetz]

That has less to do with the JA itself and more to do with defense being mostly useless in XI. If defense was useful defender would be situationally useful as well. and as Zagen said, there's no other reason for it to have +15 acc on it other than to encourage meleeing. It isn't a big reason nor is it a worthwhile one, but that doesn't stop it from being there.

I pop defender every so often on visions/scars mobs I need red proc on that die too fast otherwise.

[StingRay104]

Mage gear like this: http://ffxi.gamerescape.com/wiki/Cirque_Attire_%2B2_Set
and this: http://ffxi.gamerescape.com/wiki/Usukane_Haramaki_Set

Right?

I'm pretty sure the folks over in the RDM melee thread would splooge on themselves for access to that sort of gear.

Aside from salvage, any af, and cruor gear, our choices are mage armors don't believe me look into it sometime, don't just pick 2 of the 3 exceptions and expect your point to be valid. Hell you seen Anhur Robe yet? Noticed what job is listed on it despite having no use whatsoever for any of its enhancements? Thank god they at least gave us Mextli as well.

[Ryozen]

Community as in the player base... SE has realized what they intended for how jobs would be played is not what happened, and not what the player base has done with the jobs. They(likely the new dev team) have begun to acknowledge this over the past few years and have begun to cater to how we play jobs instead of the original vision of the job.

On a second read of your previous comment, it's sufficiently clear what you meant. I must've read it in haste, sorry.


Aside from salvage, any af, and cruor gear, our choices are mage armors don't believe me look into it sometime, don't just pick 2 of the 3 exceptions and expect your point to be valid. Hell you seen Anhur Robe yet? Noticed what job is listed on it despite having no use whatsoever for any of its enhancements? Thank god they at least gave us Mextli as well.
So, except for all the good DD gear that PUP gets, it doesn't get good DD gear? Circular logic ftw.

So you're on some mage gear. So what? Get over it. Your automaton is pretty damned versatile, and some of the stats from the mage gear are actually useful.

Anhur Robe has INT, which, last I checked, was useful for PUP.

[StingRay104]

On a second read of your previous comment, it's sufficiently clear what you meant. I must've read it in haste, sorry.


So, except for all the good DD gear that PUP gets, it doesn't get good DD gear? Circular logic ftw.

So you're on some mage gear. So what? Get over it. Your automaton is pretty damned versatile, and some of the stats from the mage gear are actually useful.

Anhur Robe has INT, which, last I checked, was useful for PUP.

OK imma ask you to level PUP first before you speak on this matter again. Seriously your knowledge of PUP is so misguided I decalre it is impossible to explain it to you. Of course you'll probably just abyssea it to 90 and never once try to buy gear for it til cirque and claim the same results.

[Zagen]

OK imma ask you to level PUP first before you speak on this matter again. Seriously your knowledge of PUP is so misguided I decalre it is impossible to explain it to you. Of course you'll probably just abyssea it to 90 and never once try to buy gear for it til cirque and claim the same results.

That's what I'm doing with my PUP (Abyssea Leeching that is) >.> lvl 20 and looks like James Bond in the Tux :D but then again I know outside of Salvage and Some AF/Relic armor PUP lacks good DD gear even after SE acknowledged PUP players want to DD alongside the puppet.

Also LOL at the concept of 5-10 armor sets from lvl 1-90 equate to a good amount of "good DD gear"

Edit: I'm most interested in how skilling up will work out speed wise on PUP with 3 skills to work on, but that sounds fun to me :D

[StingRay104]

That's what I'm doing with my PUP (Abyssea Leeching that is) >.> lvl 20 and looks like James Bond in the Tux :D but then again I know outside of Salvage and Some AF/Relic armor PUP lacks good DD gear even after SE acknowledged PUP players want to DD alongside the puppet.

Also LOL at the concept of 5-10 armor sets from lvl 1-90 equate to a good amount of "good DD gear"

Edit: I'm most interested in how skilling up will work out speed wise on PUP with 3 skills to work on, but that sounds fun to me :D

Theres some good skill up guides for PUP on wiki.

[Defiledsickness]

at least you can focus mainly on blm and whm pup skills since they're the best. rng used to be great dmg but its the same as rng... not very popular atm. melee pup is fun for a change of pace and their going to be adding new stuff to keep him alive longer.

[Scuro]

I'm pretty sure composure's main purpose was to increase spell duration so that RDMs wouldn't have to constantly deal with their cycles til they were blue in the face. Granted yes there is that bonus, but I can tell you right now, if SE were smart, they would realize that giving accuracy to a mage does not a DD make. They were trying to be people pleasers to people that play the job wrong, thus is why they were trying to give DD RDMs what they desired. Yet the "original vision" I doubt was meant to be DD RDM, while it may have been a possibility, the job RDM is extremely ambiguous and lacked any form of definition other then that which the community gaved it based on their biased of the job. Now you are being told, you're job is a buffer and a debuffer, you can deny it all you want, and you can resent it as much as you like, yet when push comes to shove, it is what the job was INTENDED to do. Hence why BLU has better sword skill and DD gear then RDM could ever dream to equip, and why AF3 for RDMs bared not a single DD stat but only buff and debuff stats. It is also why I the job does not have a single DD Job trait natively. I don't know how much more a RDM can deny it that they play the job in the manner it was not desired, yet it should be extremely evident now when you guys didn't get Fencer, although you would best apply such a role. If that hasn't given you DD RDMs the middle finger to tell you to play the job in the manner it was MEANT to be played, I don't know what does.

[Defiledsickness]

maybe composure is only for DDing. i mean whm gets no "enhances duration" stuff at all. if you're a back line mage you can just keep casting because you're not doing anything else. i mean with RDM you cast once and dont cast again until tomorrow :P although rdm was a haste whore, i doubt the devs gave it composer to keep it being abused.

composer was probably so that you could melee and not have to stop and recast all your buffs while getting pummeled. so the +acc would make sense. the only thing contrary to this at all, is that rdm AF3 has NOTHING good for melee lol. also we got no spells either except +5vit or agi from the boost spells. we should be getting bosst-str and dex soon, but it doesnt seem like we'll be seeing much DD gear from here on out.

but hey, they could have just wanted us to be able to keep up as a mage and give us our DD stuff at 91+

[Zagen]

I'm pretty sure composure's main purpose was to increase spell duration so that RDMs wouldn't have to constantly deal with their cycles til they were blue in the face. Granted yes there is that bonus, but I can tell you right now, if SE were smart, they would realize that giving accuracy to a mage does not a DD make. They were trying to be people pleasers to people that play the job wrong, thus is why they were trying to give DD RDMs what they desired. Yet the "original vision" I doubt was meant to be DD RDM, while it may have been a possibility, the job RDM is extremely ambiguous and lacked any form of definition other then that which the community gaved it based on their biased of the job. Now you are being told, you're job is a buffer and a debuffer, you can deny it all you want, and you can resent it as much as you like, yet when push comes to shove, it is what the job was INTENDED to do. Hence why BLU has better sword skill and DD gear then RDM could ever dream to equip, and why AF3 for RDMs bared not a single DD stat but only buff and debuff stats. It is also why I the job does not have a single DD Job trait natively. I don't know how much more a RDM can deny it that they play the job in the manner it was not desired, yet it should be extremely evident now when you guys didn't get Fencer, although you would best apply such a role. If that hasn't given you DD RDMs the middle finger to tell you to play the job in the manner it was MEANT to be played, I don't know what does.

You either don't know about Red Mage in the FF series, refuse to acknowledge what the development team "intended" based on the implemented spells/abilities/gear options, or just can't handle BLU in FFXI is what it is because of the failure of the front line side of RDM before BLU was introduced.

Regardless of the reason, lets agree to disagree because you can't even accept logical points that counter your "RDM = Back Line Only" thinking.

[Tashan]

Red Mage in FFXI is exactly how it has been in all Final Fantasy games.

Comparable melee/spells to other classes at low levels, multi-casts/rapid casts, then outclassed by specialist jobs at higher levels.

I'd as much argue that FFXI's RDM is the best the class has ever been in the entire series.

---

FFXI BLU is pretty faithful to all previous iterations in the series. Subpar melee to specialist class', but amazing effects through enemy skills. The Blue Mage class design also has more respectable appearances in the FF series than Red Mage.

[Scuro]

Oh lord here we go again with RDMs bringing up what they used to be in other FF's (its either this or they bring up the one term they feel is the holy light of their job "Jack of All Trades", when half of them don't understand that doesn't make you a DD RDM), rather then what they are. Man if I had a dollar for every RDM in denial that said "Well this isn't what RDM is! Look back to what the other games did!" I would be a damn millionare, time to wake up pal, because thats just it those are "other games" not "this game" While the general motif of what is representative of a RDM is carried over to this game, and while this game is still an FF game, the classes and how they operate are different, spells and JA's and etc are different. Because while this game is meant to be apart of its family of games by using classes from older FF's, and referencing past FF's in mobs, music, etc. This game is also meant to stand out from its predecessors, hence why the storyline isn't a FF7 remake part 4. And me? not drawing logical points? I'm pointing out how the community actually utilizes RDMs and their use of composure, how you're AF3 which is supposed to be a definition of what you're job role does within this community does not contain a SINGLE DD stat, and the fact that you bare not a SINGLE DD job trait native to you're class, while you, you are pointing at content that is not this game, but past FF games.

What irritates me is that even with SE coming out and flat out telling you, you are not a DD. There are still RDMs hoping for godly buffs so that they can use it on THEMSELVES to indulge in their lil solo-sword-masturbation rather then utilizing it in the manner that it was intended, to benefit the party. Accept it, this class was designed to buff, and debuff and if you can't accept it from my mouth, go to the job manifesto, pull that puppy up and read on pal. It's quite clear that you were not meant to do such a role within a party construct, now am I saying you CAN'T, no I'm saying you SHOULDN'T in a party, when you are by yourself, do with the job as you please. Yet trying to push off a DD with gimp potential and the only thing rooting for it is sickly TP feeding and high accuracy to guarantee a NM/Mob's TP move onto a party is not going to make anyone interested in the class. And you are wrong, I agreed with you that BLU is what some people wanted out of RDM, HENCE why the job was implemented into the series. God knows this series has plenty of jobs they could implement into the game from who knows how many different game universes, yet BLU was the job that was best fitting for the style of play that DD RDMs desired. SE blatantly acknowledged that RDM is not/will not be a DD class to be acknowledged in the community so they gave RDMs an option, be a BLU and be acknowledged as a DD, play RDM the way the community desires it to be played and in turn the way that SE has bent the job to be played as (hence af3 gear being debuff/buff stats only and not a single DD stat), or play DD RDM by you're self as a cast out pariah.

It just angers me that RDMs think that even with BLU they are designed as a job meant to be the true DD mage, when they couldn't be more far from the truth as SE is showing you now. And when RDMs claim that they desire this power for buffs and DD capability to "benefit the party as a cohesive whole" thats a load of c*ap. it is simply a guise they use to justify the power they want, in order to be a better DD then BLU's and DNC's, its been that way ever since RDMs started using that excuse, and that is exactly why SE will keep RDM DD in its place, as a leper cast out from society, as it should be and as of this moment forward, ever will be. :D