Nin are better tanks now?

[trinton]

Think back to endgame now and what it has become or what is endgame anymore to that. It seem with the major improvement to nin they have made vs the paladin upgrade. Do you think in the over all Nin rate high as a tank now. I know in my ls I'm in. I'm the only nin tank and I tank everything in the abyss. Over all even in dynamis I can take a hundred fist no problem because of the evasion being so high. The only thing so far I see is the magic casting Vs Utsusemi which is a waste of tool half the time if you vs a spell caster.

[Juxtaposition]

No. MNK is the best tank right now.

[Quetzacoatl]

I'd say NIN is only second to MNK.

[Gadwin]

MNK, then NIN, then maybe THF.

[Invasion]

NIN's new found tanking ability comes from the damage created by Atma's. Personally I use NIN/DNC more often (Unless I'm there for proc's), and I generally find Haste Samba outweighs Provoke in terms of hate generation, and of course a nice increase in DoT for me and other DD's.

Violent Flourish is of course useful too for the potential chance to Stun mobs, but alas there's a chance it will miss, but the chance is nice regardless.

[Cream_Soda]

No. MNK is the best tank right now.
Depends on what you're fighting.

I would only take a mnk tank over a nin tank if red !! was not needed, as mnk is on the short end of the stick in that department.

Don't need red? Mnk

Need red? Nin

[svengalis]

I've only seen nin and mnk tanks since I came back. Most prefer mnk over nin though because they can keep hate and have higher HP.

[JagerForrester]

I want my PLD tank back!
/rant

[Superchicken]

you topic title is nin are better tanks now?

To answer that simple questiong i'd say yes they are better tanks now with things such as Yonin and the Blade: Hi if you can get a kannagi or even the WoE version and if you need to blink tank stuff and get af3+2 feet can have 5 and 4 shadows from ni ichi utsu. So yes they are better at tanking than they use to be. But even then blink tanking not hardly needed, just throw a mnk in there with his high hp and a whm can pretty much let the mnk face tank and spam cure V and VI on him and never run out of mp.

Now are they better than say a mnk tank in abyssea? Well i'd say depends. What do you need your tank to do. MNK is the choice of the majority for the tank in abyssea. Can ninja tank this stuff as well, sure, but you will see that majority of groups use a mnk to tank abyssea. PLD's rarely seen in abyssea event groups, they pretty much got stuck with coming slash /nin to the exp abyssea pts and hitting 90 then putting their gear in storage due to being told "we tank with monk so dont even bother coming PLD to todays event"

[Faule]

Ninjas certainly have come into their own these days. I can't attribute it to one or two things, but the entirety of these updates have bolstered our damage dealing capabilities in ways we couldn't have imagined at level 75.

Ninjas, in my opinion, were always capable tanks. We were adept at mitigating damage and we were good at holding hate in a lot of situations. The player base felt the survivability of Red Mage and Paladin tanks were superior to that of Ninja, and they got most of the play time. Though I'm certain that could be a lengthy discussion in itself.

Today, we have atmas that boost our damage output along with another tier of Dual Wield we didn't have at level 75. We are now hitting much harder, faster! This is keeping the enemy glued to us due to the sheer hate gain through damage. Couple that with higher Evasion Skill from the level increase and Cruor buffs that up our HP totals to a point where we have a lofty damage cushion, and there's no reason to not use us for tanking.

[Cursed]

NIN isn't a better tank. PLD is just a bad tank now and others are filling in the vacume.

[wish12oz]

Ninja was always a good tank when you could DD tank things, which basically means anything in the T or weaker range as opposed to the VT-IT range. It just so happens that now, everything is weak, so DD tanking is the way to go.

Every job has their strengths too, monk has insane HP for instance. Stuff that would 1 shot your ninja, a monk would laugh at. But for mobs with hate reset a ninja will do better then a monk, because ninja can build enmity faster starting from nothing. Also a good ninja can avoid taking damage better then a monk, they have slow, blind, good evasion and more shadows.

In the end all this discussion is sort of pointless though, several jobs are good tanks now, what it really comes down to is the person playing the character, and what sort of gear sets/atmas/abyssites they have. Player skill and how much they have bothered to go out and accomplish/bothered to learn about game mechanics is what matters most now, not job. Give me a war or drk subbing sam with a full DR set/merit abyssites/etc over a pink monk with a twilight belt any day! (`ヘ´)

[vajral]

really, maybe i had no good experience with mnk tanks, but i don't get all this excitement about it
wow, you can go mnk + whm and duo wathever you want, the mnk keep blindly hitting and the whm spams cure, at the end of the fight you see no drops and go home happy!
as a nin, i nealy never need a whm to cure me. i usually duo with a blm, we proc yellow and red 90% of the times, with stun and violent flourish i hardly take any dmg, hate reset is not an issue, just throw a hyoton san.
i'm not underestimating mnks, but for low man situation in aby, i'd rather go with a multi purpose tank and a multi purpose healer, than with a big punching ball followed by an ambulance.

the problem is always the same, /nin? no provoke waltzes and so on
/war or /dnc? no shadows
u want both? NIN/DNC and DNC/NIN are the way to go

that said, i'm sure in particular situations MNK is unbeatable, but in abyssea nin and blm can duo nearly everything, and they get better drops

[Faule]

Their boon is counterstance and perfect counter. Consider it like an unending supply of shadows for melee attacks.

Couple that with every blue proc during 22:00 to 7:00 and they will go home with drops. Red is a different story. It's where we as Ninjas shine.

[vajral]

what about grellow?

[Faule]

What about it.

[vajral]

with a mnk and whm duo it will unlikely happen. nin + blm is a different planet :)
i repeat, i'm sure mnk is a great choice for some kind of NMs, but for farming, i'd definitely go nin
and i repeat again, no need for a huge hp pool when you're hardly taking dmg and what can oneshot you nets you a sweet 0 dmg
as usual everything is situational, i just state that nin is a way more versatile choice

[Mojo]

The damage output of both NIN & MNK when contrasted to their damage mitigation properties towers above all other classes and are generally on par (in Abyssea, at least) for most of the fights in the game. The only difference between between the two, as it's been stated, is the type of procs you want for drops.

MNK => Azure procs
NIN => Amber & Ruby procs

It's that simple, really.

[Faule]

with a mnk and whm duo it will unlikely happen. nin + blm is a different planet :)
i repeat, i'm sure mnk is a great choice for some kind of NMs, but for farming, i'd definitely go nin
and i repeat again, no need for a huge hp pool when you're hardly taking dmg and what can oneshot you nets you a sweet 0 dmg
as usual everything is situational, i just state that nin is a way more versatile choice

You compare NIN + BLM to MNK + WHM. That's fairly inadequate.

MNK/NIN can cast the same Grellow spells as NIN/???.

So if you go to fight your enemy around lightsday/darksday, a very possible option, your MNK + WHM has just as good of a chance to proc yellow as your NIN + WHM.

Of course if either group brings a BLM, your Grellow chances are that much better. But in terms of proc'ing Grellow, MNK can achieve the same outcome as NIN. It's neither here nor there really.

[vajral]

hmmm i don't agree
i actually found myself doing blue procs more often with a club or dagger than with my katana
nin/war has access to
club : 3 ws
staff : 1ws
Katana: 2 ws
dagger 2 ws
h2h: 1ws
sword: 1ws

naturally 22-7 mnk is THE king of blu !!

[vajral]

mnk whm blm it's a trio, not a duo :)
nin whm blm is grellow nearly guaranteed all week long /joy, and it saves inventory space

[Faule]

But you're touting 10 weapon skills that Ninja can perform spread across a lengthy amount of time.
10 out of 59 possible blue weapon skills.

Whereas all of Monk's land in blunt time.
And Monk can perform all but two. 16 possible weapon skills (17 if /WAR) out of 18.

The very nature of Ninja's blue procs widen the spectrum of when it can use them. Because Monk's procs are contained within Blunt, as long as you're hunting during Blunt they win.


mnk whm blm it's a trio, not a duo
Yes you're right it's a duo. But I never said it wasn't a duo. You brought up NIN + BLM compared to MNK + WHM. Which isn't an adequate comparison. I was trying to illustrate that a MNK + WHM can have the exact same Grellow procs as a NIN + WHM.

[vajral]

i've been told grellow can occur even as a sub, but to be honest i never saw it
maybe it's just because i'm tanking EVERY nm
and i really think mnk/nin cannot land kurayami and hojo, correct me if i'm wrong

[vajral]

and i was also saying that a nin needs no whm to be kept alive, dunno if mnk + blm is a viable option

[Faule]

Kurayami as a subjob can land. If you have trouble I've had no problem getting it to land as MNK/NIN COR/NIN PUP/NIN etc, with the use of Ascetic's Tonic (easily obtained in abyssea). As well as Grellow procs from the elemental Ninjutsu.

And I wouldn't be caught dead saying
that a nin needs no whm to be kept aliveI'm sure my WHM's would gladly let me die just to prove a point. :D

On lesser NM's the difficulty isn't high enough to warrant a WHM, sure. Or if you're /DNC your survivability also rises. Though I don't think I would go so far as to say that WHM's aren't necessary.

[vajral]

a blm is usually more than enough, expecially if going /dnc

[Mojo]

NIN + BLM vs MNK + WHM is a fair comparison in many situations. BLM is rarely adequate support for a MNK, but it is often adequate support for a NIN. So if you're intent on duoing, especially for AF3+2 items, then NIN is much better for this not only because of Ruby procs but also more Amber procs due to the conversion of a WHM to a BLM.

My team of friends is usually NIN WHM BLM. This is very efficient for nearly every activity in the game. If there is a situation where we want Azure procs, I simply switch to MNK after farming the pop set probably on NIN.

[vajral]

NIN + BLM vs MNK + WHM is a fair comparison in many situations. BLM is rarely adequate support for a MNK, but it is often adequate support for a NIN. So if you're intent on duoing, especially for AF3+2 items, then NIN is much better for this not only because of Ruby procs but also more Amber procs due to the conversion of a WHM to a BLM.

My team of friends is usually NIN WHM BLM. This is very efficient for nearly every activity in the game. If there is a situation where we want Azure procs, I simply switch to MNK after farming the pop set probably on NIN.

THAT is a good move

[Juxtaposition]

Wow. There are a lot of bad players in this thread.


I want my PLD tank back!
/rant

If I wanted a melee to not hold hate and do no damage, I'd invite a PUP.


i usually duo with a blm, we proc yellow and red 90% of the times

No, you proc grellow 62% of the time, or 42~54% of the time on Lightningday, Lightsday, or Darskday.

You proc red 69% of the time, 76% if you have the event polearm, but I'm willing to bet you don't.


...with stun and violent flourish i hardly take any dmg, hate reset is not an issue, just throw a hyoton san.

WAIT, never mind, your red proc rate plummeted to 38%. Subbing DNC should be a last resort option only, and only, only, only if your other duo buddy is a WAR.


i actually found myself doing blue procs more often with a club or dagger than with my katana

Great, the stars aligned and you managed to proc blue on Briareus which is completely worthless, save 10 seconds of Amnesia. For things that you are actively building popsets for blue trigger items, you are going to bring a MNK and a WHM during blunt o'clock. Don't spread your ignorance that NIN > MNK when it comes to blue procs.


i've been told grellow can occur even as a sub, but to be honest i never saw it
maybe it's just because i'm tanking EVERY nm
and i really think mnk/nin cannot land kurayami and hojo, correct me if i'm wrong

You're wrong.


a blm is usually more than enough, expecially if going /dnc

Don't gimp yourself by going /DNC. You are wasting everyone else's time by not proccing red and by killing slowly.

[wish12oz]

epic post of win

I was just about to say most of that! (`ヘ´)

[Faule]

Spot on Jux, cept the part about the PUP. ;)

[Juxtaposition]

Spot on Jux, cept the part about the PUP. ;)

Well, I was going to say DRK, but they have the advantage of uncommon red (and to a lesser extent) blue triggers. :D

[Alderin]

Wow, some people know how to be arrogent don't they? Give the guy a break. But instead, I will just write why I disagree with your post:



No, you proc grellow 62% of the time, or 42~54% of the time on Lightningday, Lightsday, or Darskday.


While in a mathematical sense, yes your figures make sense. However from personal experience - I very rarely come across a time where a BRD spell is required, so lets just ignore that. BLU however comes up from time to time, as does NIN but in a sense, if you have a BLM with you - you are pretty much going to get the grellow proc regardless. 90% of time time (oh no! I am going to get slagged cause I used the number 90%!! figure of speach dude, chill.), you are going to get a proc.



You proc red 69% of the time, 76% if you have the event polearm, but I'm willing to bet you don't.

Here we are with more percentages. However I will end the red proc argument with one simple thing - MNK cannot proc red apart from Staff - unless you /WAR.

Something I may be slightly wrong with here however from what I have noticed lately is the trigger for red is usually something that is in both time "Time" and "Day" of what's on wiki. As I said I could be wrong - so say you go in Piercing time on Windsday - the proc could quite possibly be Cyclone (Just something I have a hunch on, however will repeat - could be wrong).




WAIT, never mind, your red proc rate plummeted to 38%. Subbing DNC should be a last resort option only, and only, only, only if your other duo buddy is a WAR.

If we are talking percentages - that means you have 15% chance of proc'ing as a MNK. Even as /DNC nin is better at getting red.

However truly, who cares for percentages, you can either proc it, or you can't. End of story.




Great, the stars aligned and you managed to proc blue on Briareus which is completely worthless, save 10 seconds of Amnesia. For things that you are actively building popsets for blue trigger items, you are going to bring a MNK and a WHM during blunt o'clock. Don't spread your ignorance that NIN > MNK when it comes to blue procs.

Blue = Equipment / Weapons. You want the PLD pants? Then proc Blue. Don't flame people for them wanting gear that they may actually want. Let them gear themselves up however they want.




You're wrong.

I understand you were simply correcting him however, and you are right to say that it isn't true. However:

Who defines what is "Right". There are "better" ways but never "wrong" ways to do things. If the atma / abyssite / gear / seals... w/e they are hunting for drops, then they aren't doing anything "wrong". It's mentalities like this that make the game not-fun and all about politics.



Don't gimp yourself by going /DNC. You are wasting everyone else's time by not proccing red and by killing slowly.

Disagree with you there. /DNC is a great sub for NIN regardless if you have a healer or not.
- Haste samba = hit faster. Now I know you are going to say you get a DA rate of 10% with /WAR which is true, however that's just a personal preference.
- Healing Waltz = get rid of your own status effects by hitting a macro instead of typing an {Auto-Translate} word for your JP healer.
- The difference in damage output between /WAR and /DNC is far too small to flame over. Especially with atmas thrown into the mix.
- Sure you have less procs, but it is by no means a reason to say a /DNC is a gimp subjob.
- Evasion bonus as /DNC is always nice also. There is a massively notable difference with that one.

In the end, both /WAR and /DNC are both circumstantial. I personally solo a lot of things, so the ability to heal myself if sh*t hits the fan is always nice.


I believe from the original post - the whole argument was that NIN & BLM can proc more GRELLOW. Grellow is a funny looking red if you ask me.

From what I gather, you would be a skilled player, however I would like to finish and say I am totally glad I have not run into you yet (even if you are on my server) because its people with mentalities like yours that I like to avoid.

The manner in which you responded to his/her experience is somewhat uncalled for, and the "wrong" way to go about things.

Let the man/woman play the game how they want to play.

Ps. To all you MNK's out there, MNK is a great tank and never stated NIN is better. Nor do I believe MNK is a better tank then NIN. It comes down to the player's skill, gear, atmas.

[Faule]

He said your percentages were wrong. Which they were. Please don't use "90% of the time" because it's not 90% of the time. And that's misleading. Something we should avoid here.

[Kaeoni]

Mnk has more HP, which is pretty game breaking when some moves can and will 1 shot any other job.
Nin has 4-5 shadows, Migawari and its respective de-buffs.
Thf has it's evasion but is limited being able to only sub ninja when tanking.

Drop rates red blue and grellow processions aside its just what you need at the time for what you plan to fight. All 3 of these jobs make holding hate a non issue, Atma's take care of that.

So if you don't have Sentinel's Scherzo you might want to go with a monk, however if your ninja is intelligent enough to know how to manage Migawari he can not only lessen the blow of an attack, but totally evade dmg that would have otherwise killed him. If none of this is the case, the world revolves around drop rates, Thf far out does both ninja and mnk in that department while barely skimping out on kill speed, and who cares about a minute or two more kill time on something if what everyone is looking for actually drops.

[Alderin]

He said your percentages were wrong. Which they were. Please don't use "90% of the time" because it's not 90% of the time. And that's misleading. Something we should avoid here.

It's a figure of speech, not an actual fact. Which could be easily distinguished from both the original post and my own. Lighten up. No one is posting specific stats here. If someone wanted them, they would have been asked for.

His post was either intentionally or unintentionally designed to troll the original poster's personal experience. Something I strongly don't agree with - I mean what are we talking about here? A game! No reason to get so narky and arrogent.

[Faule]

There's a good lesson to be learned here somewhere.

[Mojo]

Using math to show that you're wrong but then stating that it doesn't matter what the math shows is not a good way to win a debate.

[Alderin]

Mnk has more HP, which is pretty game breaking when some moves can and will 1 shot any other job.
Nin has 4-5 shadows, Migawari and its respective de-buffs.
Thf has it's evasion but is limited being able to only sub ninja when tanking.

Drop rates red blue and grellow processions aside its just what you need at the time for what you plan to fight. All 3 of these jobs make holding hate a non issue, Atma's take care of that.

So if you don't have Sentinel's Scherzo you might want to go with a monk, however if your ninja is intelligent enough to know how to manage Migawari he can not only lessen the blow of an attack, but totally evade dmg that would have otherwise killed him. If none of this is the case, the world revolves around drop rates, Thf far out does both ninja and mnk in that department while barely skimping out on kill speed, and who cares about a minute or two more kill time on something if what everyone is looking for actually drops.

+2. Every job has their place.

I disagree however with Migawari being the be-all and end-all. There are only a few NM's around that can 1-shot a ninja tank. Not saying they don't exist. Even if we are talking about +2 body pieces here, a hume ninja with cruor buffs and no HP atmas have about 1700HP. That means the mob has to take about 1300+HP in order for the attack to be anulled. Sure the odd NM does that, in fact I may be understating it by saying the "odd" NM does it, as there are a few - however with a spell duration 1/2 the recast time, it has to be reasonably timed in order to be worth it. I would just drop a DD atma and wack on a HP atma if there was a risk of being 1 shotted.

I believe that a good ninja always has shadows, and only gets hit if the mob's TP moves wipe / ignore shadows. That is when a WHM comes in handy. I with a recast timer of 30 seconds (or less depending on gear), you have quite a bit of time to wait for :Ni to get back up. Hell I am not even talking about :Ichi here. That is esentially only 15 seconds you have to survive before you can recast shadows.

[Orenwald]

IMO the best job to have tank your mob... is the job your tank decides to come on, cuz for the most part if your group as a whole doesn't suck it'll work out in the end :D (This being said I go NIN to everything using the excuse "But... But... I want can has Kannagi ;_;")

[Alderin]

Using math to show that you're wrong but then stating that it doesn't matter what the math shows is not a good way to win a debate.

Your ability to read is laughable. I am just defending the poor guy that was originally trolled.

Scroll back a few pages, open your eyes a little wider and re-check some usernames. You will notice that was my first post on this topic.

If your referring to me using math, hell I will admit - my math is terrible and wouldn't want to use it even if I had to.

Please grab a quote of what I said because I seem to be missing the math side of my own post here.

[SNK]

Depends on what you're fighting.

I would only take a mnk tank over a nin tank if red !! was not needed, as mnk is on the short end of the stick in that department.

Don't need red? Mnk

Need red? Nin

This in a nutshell. NIN in Abyessa went from a subpar tank outside of Abyessa to an amazing damage dealer and solid as hell tank. The ability to have 5 Shadows at once alone is close to as broken as it can get being a NIN.

I'm in a lowman static with a NIN WHM BLU DRK & me as a BLM. Thru most of what we farm and kill this setup has had almost no issues procting Red or Gello. Most recent thing we did which I never fought before until the servers went poop was the Behemoth in La Thiene. I thought it was a pretty simple fight until the Meteor Spam at 10%ish but we still managed to take it down with Red, Gello, and Blue Triggers along with me getting a 1st time ever TH10 Proct for full drops.

Fun fight and I hope we can do more when the servers are back up.~

[Juxtaposition]

Wow, some people know how to be arrogent don't they? Give the guy a break. But instead, I will just write why I disagree with your post:

There's no point in sugarcoating it, especially when they are spreading false information. You'll note that I'm not arrogant towards people with opinions that are actually opinions, nor to people who have intellectual questions. I am only painfully blunt to the ignorant people.


While in a mathematical sense, yes your figures make sense. However from personal experience - I very rarely come across a time where a BRD spell is required, so lets just ignore that. BLU however comes up from time to time, as does NIN but in a sense, if you have a BLM with you - you are pretty much going to get the grellow proc regardless. 90% of time time (oh no! I am going to get slagged cause I used the number 90%!! figure of speach dude, chill.), you are going to get a proc.

You're arguing facts with anecdote. There was a night when I was farming seals and our BLM/BRD triggered grellow four times in a row. Notice that I am not parading around forums declaring that if you have no BRD main in your party that all your BLMs should sub BRD. Point is just because you have a lucky streak one night doesn't mean that you are proccing grellow 90% of the time with NIN + BRD.


Here we are with more percentages. However I will end the red proc argument with one simple thing - MNK cannot proc red apart from Staff - unless you /WAR.

Why is your MNK not sub WAR? NIN is an absolutely terrible sub for MNK and should not be considered except in the most dire of circumstances.


If we are talking percentages - that means you have 15% chance of proc'ing as a MNK. Even as /DNC nin is better at getting red.

However truly, who cares for percentages, you can either proc it, or you can't. End of story.

What are you arguing for? That NIN is better than MNK for red? Yes, MNK is terrible for red, NIN is vastly superior. People care for percentages to maximize their efficiency with what they have available. That's why percentages are important.


Blue = Equipment / Weapons. You want the PLD pants? Then proc Blue. Don't flame people for them wanting gear that they may actually want. Let them gear themselves up however they want.

You didn't understand what I meant. Most of the time, blue is optional, an added bonus if you are able to proc it, but not the point of the run. For the cases that you are actively trying to get the blue proc items, you will enter Shinryuu/pop the NM during blunt o'clock, period. If you don't, you are doing it wrong and wasting your party's time, end of discussion.


I understand you were simply correcting him however, and you are right to say that it isn't true. However:

Who defines what is "Right". There are "better" ways but never "wrong" ways to do things. If the atma / abyssite / gear / seals... w/e they are hunting for drops, then they aren't doing anything "wrong". It's mentalities like this that make the game not-fun and all about politics.

SE defines what is "right" in this situation by virtue of this specific topic being "I don't think you can proc grellow with subjobs." This little triad would be better served with the discussion of NIN + BLM onry. In the end, I don't care how anyone else farms their seals except for two groups: my party and the DNC/NIN + WHM/RDM duo that is popping my NM and taking 15 minutes to kill.


Disagree with you there. /DNC is a great sub for NIN regardless if you have a healer or not.
- Haste samba = hit faster. Now I know you are going to say you get a DA rate of 10% with /WAR which is true, however that's just a personal preference.
- Healing Waltz = get rid of your own status effects by hitting a macro instead of typing an {Auto-Translate} word for your JP healer.
- The difference in damage output between /WAR and /DNC is far too small to flame over. Especially with atmas thrown into the mix.
- Sure you have less procs, but it is by no means a reason to say a /DNC is a gimp subjob.
- Evasion bonus as /DNC is always nice also. There is a massively notable difference with that one.

In the end, both /WAR and /DNC are both circumstantial. I personally solo a lot of things, so the ability to heal myself if sh*t hits the fan is always nice.

Oh dear. Stop trying to justify gimp subs. As I stated before, the only use for /DNC is for suboptimal party setups.
-Haste Samba: Does not make up for the DPS loss from JAs and DA.
-Healing Waltz: Kills your TP. Get a WHM that doesn't suck.
-The marginal healing gained from /DNC is completely irrelevant on nearly all abyssean NMs with a mage healer and completely irrelevant on all NMs with a WHM. The damage and triggers gained by going /WAR is so monumentally huge in abyssea that you are a fool if you don't go /WAR.
-Evasion +22 is completely irrelevant with a healer. If you find that you NEED that +22 Evasion, swapping gear is a better solution compared to gimping yourself.

Like I've stated, the ONLY time you /DNC is with a suboptimal party setup: solo, or NIN + WAR. If you have a mage with you, /WAR is always the better option.


I believe from the original post - the whole argument was that NIN & BLM can proc more GRELLOW. Grellow is a funny looking red if you ask me.

From what I gather, you would be a skilled player, however I would like to finish and say I am totally glad I have not run into you yet (even if you are on my server) because its people with mentalities like yours that I like to avoid.

The manner in which you responded to his/her experience is somewhat uncalled for, and the "wrong" way to go about things.

Let the man/woman play the game how they want to play.

Ps. To all you MNK's out there, MNK is a great tank and never stated NIN is better. Nor do I believe MNK is a better tank then NIN. It comes down to the player's skill, gear, atmas.

The whole argument in and of itself was silly; NIN does not offer much for grellow and practically any job can "get away with" subbing NIN for grellow. The point of my post was to point out fallacies that "vajral" kept making. To be frank, a lot of the stuff he was spouting out was pretty terrible and needed to be corrected. There's a few other things in the thread that I don't agree with, but didn't feel the need to comment on.

My in-game mentality is actually pretty different from my forum or twitter mentality. I have a less tolerance for stupidity when things are posted opposed to being said in-game. I suppose my reasoning is that you can better articulate your points in a forum post/tweet, rather than real time talking. But we're not hear to talk about my mentality, are we?

For the record, I could care less if he goes and plays NIN the "wrong" way. The part I care about is his giving the NIN community a bad name by saying junk like NIN being a better blue proc than MNK or /DNC as a viable party sub.

P.S. MNKs are better tanks than NINs. It does not come down player's skill, gear or atma because we are talking about a class. Discussion cannot take into consideration a particular player's skill, gear or atmas because you can have a terrible MNK go up against a wonderful NIN. Just because that NIN is better than that MNK does not make NIN > MNK. It makes Player A > Player B. Same goes for truly amazing PUPs outparsing mediocre Perle wearing WARs. Doesn't mean that the class PUP is better than the class WAR, it means Perle WAR needs to quit FFXI.


It's a figure of speech, not an actual fact. Which could be easily distinguished from both the original post and my own. Lighten up. No one is posting specific stats here. If someone wanted them, they would have been asked for.

His post was either intentionally or unintentionally designed to troll the original poster's personal experience. Something I strongly don't agree with - I mean what are we talking about here? A game! No reason to get so narky and arrogent.

Please. "man, you don't need a war proccing red, I proc red 90% of the time while subbing dnc, its ez" That statement reeks of ignorance and I'm going to call him out on his BS. If he said, "I feel like I do my fair share of red proccing. Subbing DNC I feel like I get it half the time" I wouldn't have bothered posting. Certainly 50% isn't 38%, but that would be arguing specifics. 38% is a far cry from 90%.


however with a spell duration 1/2 the recast time, it has to be reasonably timed in order to be worth it.

With proper buffs and gear, it drops to about 10-15 seconds of downtime where the buff won't be up. Might even be less, but its been a while since I last played and used Migawari.


I am just defending the poor guy that was originally trolled.

"Poor guy?" He is a terrible poster who does not bother to use basic punctuation or sentence structure and was spouting out pure nonsense. Patch up your bleeding heart and save your breath for someone who deserves it.

[Alderin]

Firstly I would like to say that was a cleaner post and gives me more respect for your opinion.


There's no point in sugarcoating it, especially when they are spreading false information. You'll note that I'm not arrogant towards people with opinions that are actually opinions, nor to people who have intellectual questions. I am only painfully blunt to the ignorant people.

While his original post may not have been bang on the money - the major issue I had was the manner in which you responded to him.


You're arguing facts with anecdote. There was a night when I was farming seals and our BLM/BRD triggered grellow four times in a row. Notice that I am not parading around forums declaring that if you have no BRD main in your party that all your BLMs should sub BRD. Point is just because you have a lucky streak one night doesn't mean that you are proccing grellow 90% of the time with NIN + BRD.

How many of those 4x was a BRD spell? My original post stated that BRD and NIN don't really come up that often for me personally. If you have a BLM with you, unless you are unlucky - you are pretty much going to proc grellow. Sure BLM only accounts for about half of the spells, however from my experience it is a BLM spell most of the time. Sure it is more efficient to have the ability to proc every single spell, however I do believe if you have a BLM with you - you are reasonably safe.


Why is your MNK not sub WAR? NIN is an absolutely terrible sub for MNK and should not be considered except in the most dire of circumstances.

I don't have MNK levelled because I have NIN. Nor have I spent much time with a MNK tanking as being a NIN main, I am usually the tank of the group. I see more MNK/DNC then I do /NIN so that was what I was intending. I know /NIN is a terrible sub for MNK as the way a MNK tanks (correct me if I am wrong) is counter rate - which is ignored if you have shadows, massive HP and cure bombs.


What are you arguing for? That NIN is better than MNK for red? Yes, MNK is terrible for red, NIN is vastly superior. People care for percentages to maximize their efficiency with what they have available. That's why percentages are important.

I am on no specific side as I know that NIN and MNK are both great tanks. I don't believe one is "better" at tanking then the other because that depends on player skill, gear and atma of course. So I will be honest - don't really have an argument there. From your original post I had that "MNK's pwn" impression - In which I stand corrected. Yes MNK's suck at red, and ninjas have a lot more options in that department.


You didn't understand what I meant. Most of the time, blue is optional, an added bonus if you are able to proc it, but not the point of the run. For the cases that you are actively trying to get the blue proc items, you will enter Shinryuu/pop the NM during blunt o'clock, period. If you don't, you are doing it wrong and wasting your party's time, end of discussion.

Correct, and stand corrected. Either that or take a WAR with you. No argument there.


SE defines what is "right" in this situation by virtue of this specific topic being "I don't think you can proc grellow with subjobs." This little triad would be better served with the discussion of NIN + BLM onry. In the end, I don't care how anyone else farms their seals except for two groups: my party and the DNC/NIN + WHM/RDM duo that is popping my NM and taking 15 minutes to kill.

Fair call. Starting to tie up my shoes with this post anyway TBH


Oh dear. Stop trying to justify gimp subs. As I stated before, the only use for /DNC is for suboptimal party setups.
-Haste Samba: Does not make up for the DPS loss from JAs and DA.
-Healing Waltz: Kills your TP. Get a WHM that doesn't suck.
-The marginal healing gained from /DNC is completely irrelevant on nearly all abyssean NMs with a mage healer and completely irrelevant on all NMs with a WHM. The damage and triggers gained by going /WAR is so monumentally huge in abyssea that you are a fool if you don't go /WAR.
-Evasion +22 is completely irrelevant with a healer. If you find that you NEED that +22 Evasion, swapping gear is a better solution compared to gimping yourself.

Like I've stated, the ONLY time you /DNC is with a suboptimal party setup: solo, or NIN + WAR. If you have a mage with you, /WAR is always the better option.

Disagree with you there.
- I havn't done the math, but I see only a reasonably small difference in DPS as /WAR or /DNC with atmas. If you show me a parser sheet with the mentioned - /WAR with beserk up, and /DNC with haste samba up - There will be a difference but I can only guess that it will be a marginal one. Sure you hit a little harder but we are using Katanas here - they aren't the strongest weapons in the world. The damage you get from katanas is from RR when you crit hit most of the time.
- My WHM rocks, but as does healing waltz in those "oh shit" situations. What is 20TP when you get it back in one round of swinging katanas anyway?
- Yes I have gear swaps, yes I know how to be an evasion tank. Also, yes +22 evasion does help. Go sub /DNC, aggro something then stand there. See how much +20 evasion gives you. You evade a lot more then you do with /WAR. Means casting shadows less, which means less work for you.
- Lastly might I just remind you of potentially DNC's best ability - and that is the ability to stun. Stun adds more to survivability. Less "oh sh*t" situations, and more time to focus on actually killing.

/WAR is a great subjob, however your opinions on /DNC being a gimp subjob - are flawed.


The whole argument in and of itself was silly; NIN does not offer much for grellow and practically any job can "get away with" subbing NIN for grellow. The point of my post was to point out fallacies that "vajral" kept making. To be frank, a lot of the stuff he was spouting out was pretty terrible and needed to be corrected. There's a few other things in the thread that I don't agree with, but didn't feel the need to comment on.

Sure, and I do agree - Nin grellow procs are really irrelevant. However earlier in the post, didnt we establish /nin is a less then ideal sub for MNK? I believe the original argument was MNK + WHM vs. NIN + BLM. Which in a sense is a fine comparison due to the fact as NIN you don't truly need the excessive healing that a MNK needs. (Due to the nature in which a MNK tanks).


My in-game mentality is actually pretty different from my forum or twitter mentality. I have a less tolerance for stupidity when things are posted opposed to being said in-game. I suppose my reasoning is that you can better articulate your points in a forum post/tweet, rather than real time talking. But we're not hear to talk about my mentality, are we?

Well actually, the mentality in which you posted your original post is what forced me to respond to it. I couldn't care less for the actual argument at hand, I believe both sides have their better and not as good sides to them. So in actual fact, yes this post is about your mentality. As was my original post rebutting yours, as I disagree with the way you spoke your points.


For the record, I could care less if he goes and plays NIN the "wrong" way. The part I care about is his giving the NIN community a bad name by saying junk like NIN being a better blue proc than MNK or /DNC as a viable party sub.


P.S. MNKs are better tanks than NINs. It does not come down player's skill, gear or atma because we are talking about a class. Discussion cannot take into consideration a particular player's skill, gear or atmas because you can have a terrible MNK go up against a wonderful NIN. Just because that NIN is better than that MNK does not make NIN > MNK. It makes Player A > Player B. Same goes for truly amazing PUPs outparsing mediocre Perle wearing WARs. Doesn't mean that the class PUP is better than the class WAR, it means Perle WAR needs to quit FFXI.

Disagree. Yes a MNK + WHM can duo pretty much anything in Abyssea. NIN/DNC can solo a lottttt of junk that MNK would struggle solo'ing.

Are MNK's better at taking a hit? Yes of course. However are NIN's better at avoiding a hit / not getting hurt? Yep!
A MNK tank needs a healing method to kill something. A nin essentially doesn't.

Both classes are better at tanking certain mobs in certain situations. Neither out-do the other.

[Mojo]

I wouldn't even say that MNK > NIN for tanking even if you forget about procs altogether. There are quite a few situations where what NIN has to offer (5/4 shadows, various ninjutsu spells, etc.) are much handier than Counterstance. It all really just depends on the situation, none is universally superior or even generally superior than the other.

[Yarly]

Disagree with you there.
- I havn't done the math, but I see only a reasonably small difference in DPS as /WAR or /DNC with atmas. If you show me a parser sheet with the mentioned - /WAR with beserk up, and /DNC with haste samba up - There will be a difference but I can only guess that it will be a marginal one. Sure you hit a little harder but we are using Katanas here - they aren't the strongest weapons in the world. The damage you get from katanas is from RR when you crit hit most of the time.
- My WHM rocks, but as does healing waltz in those "oh shit" situations. What is 20TP when you get it back in one round of swinging katanas anyway?
- Yes I have gear swaps, yes I know how to be an evasion tank. Also, yes +22 evasion does help. Go sub /DNC, aggro something then stand there. See how much +20 evasion gives you. You evade a lot more then you do with /WAR. Means casting shadows less, which means less work for you.
- Lastly might I just remind you of potentially DNC's best ability - and that is the ability to stun. Stun adds more to survivability. Less "oh sh*t" situations, and more time to focus on actually killing.

/WAR is a great subjob, however your opinions on /DNC being a gimp subjob - are flawed.


The amount of time you spend NOT swinging your katanas while doing JA already makes /DNC the inferior subjob.

Also, every 1m30s you spend 35% TP and a couple of attack rounds due to JA delay to swing 5% faster.
You're also lacking provoke, not for hate but to pull with. You can argue Animated Flourish but once again, you sacrifice a couple of attack rounds and 10% TP which is more than one attack round because you're probably getting 4.8% TP/swing at most
What's the difference? You're looking at probably 10% less WS frequency at least just due to constant Haste Samba and a lot less swinging due to JA delay. Your damage per swing probably won't be affected much but how much you swing over time is less and your Blade: Jin/Hi averages will be lower without berserk. Blah blah blah... Juxta already said it.

"They're just katanas" is a stupid 2004 argument. It's because of razed ruins that katanas are part of the top tier weaponry right now. Blade: Jin AND Blade: Hi are both critical damage weaponskills so both WS and TP phase are boosted by crit rate/damage. We live and breathe abyssea right now and thus right now, katanas are very strong.

You're building such a niche case for /dnc and then saying it's a great subjob when it's only AVERAGE when all the stars align for you. Your whm, if competent enough, is enough to heal you through anything reasonable.

There's 6 abyssites of merit available to everyone. There's no excuse to not have them all. If you don't get HP cruor buffs in abyssea then something is wrong. With that said, anything with HP can tank. I don't see why you can't just nin/war and not bother casting shadows at all. Your whm has more than enough mp to heal you. Plus, you save gil on shihei. Also, mnk have a really high counter rate. So in reality they avoid more attacks than a nin would.

But who cares? /dnc works, /pup works, /smn works, /brd works, /drg works, etc. Just because it works doesn't mean it's good.

There is no wrong subjob but better = better and gimp = gimp. It's all so very insignificant because of abyssea. You could be nin90/smn1 and still get a Kannagi just duo with you and your whm and you wouldn't have a problem, maybe it'll take you one or two days longer due to losing /war for those red proc ws, so all it costs is time. But I wouldn't say /smn1 is good just because it worked for me.

[Mojo]

Haste Samba with capped gear haste and haste spell will increase your marginal attack speed by 9.09%. However, you lose the Double Attack trait from WAR subjob (dropping you from 23% DA 18% TA with the 'ideal' set up to 13% DA 18% TA.) The 10% Double Attack trait would bump you up by a marginal 5.59% attacks per round (8.18% without Apoc.) This assumes Triple Attack procs overwrite Double Attack procs.

So, they're close even if you completely disregard effects of sinking TP into Haste Samba, the one second stasis from using Haste Samba, Double Attack procs on WS and Berserk. Should be pretty clear that, in terms of pure damage, /WAR > /DNC.

[vajral]

Wow. There are a lot of bad players in this thread.



If I wanted a melee to not hold hate and do no damage, I'd invite a PUP.



No, you proc grellow 62% of the time, or 42~54% of the time on Lightningday, Lightsday, or Darskday.

You proc red 69% of the time, 76% if you have the event polearm, but I'm willing to bet you don't.



WAIT, never mind, your red proc rate plummeted to 38%. Subbing DNC should be a last resort option only, and only, only, only if your other duo buddy is a WAR.



Great, the stars aligned and you managed to proc blue on Briareus which is completely worthless, save 10 seconds of Amnesia. For things that you are actively building popsets for blue trigger items, you are going to bring a MNK and a WHM during blunt o'clock. Don't spread your ignorance that NIN > MNK when it comes to blue procs.



You're wrong.



Don't gimp yourself by going /DNC. You are wasting everyone else's time by not proccing red and by killing slowly.

- You're right about the 90% thing, I just mean there are really good chance to proc red in a nin+blm duo (subbing war adds seraph blade and raiden trust to your arsenal, no more no less), and pls explain why you think i shouldn't have an event polearm (which i have since 2005)

- I doubt a mnk/nin can land hojo, since it's a nin48 spell. no need of further explanation about that.

- mnk+whm guarantees blue procs during 22-7. If you're farming af3+1/+2 item, going mnk+whm simply doesn't work that nicely.

- /war and /dnc depend on what you are fighting: for example kiting briareus every miute after a tp move hurts your damage more than throwing a violent frlourish. just choose the appropriate sub for the situation (or choose your favourite one).

Sorry for the punctuation, but i'm not an english native speaker :) when i see someone writing in italian i usually try to help him/her improve instead of complaining...

[Alderin]

The amount of time you spend NOT swinging your katanas while doing JA already makes /DNC the inferior subjob.

-Very true and agree, dancing does reduce slashing time. I did not say it was superior, nor did I say it was equal. I simply said it is not as gimp as it has been proclaimed.



Also, every 1m30s you spend 35% TP and a couple of attack rounds due to JA delay to swing 5% faster.
You're also lacking provoke, not for hate but to pull with. You can argue Animated Flourish but once again, you sacrifice a couple of attack rounds and 10% TP which is more than one attack round because you're probably getting 4.8% TP/swing at most
What's the difference? You're looking at probably 10% less WS frequency at least just due to constant Haste Samba and a lot less swinging due to JA delay. Your damage per swing probably won't be affected much but how much you swing over time is less and your Blade: Jin/Hi averages will be lower without berserk. Blah blah blah... Juxta already said it.

- Nor did I say /DNC's damage will match /WAR.


"They're just katanas" is a stupid 2004 argument. It's because of razed ruins that katanas are part of the top tier weaponry right now. Blade: Jin AND Blade: Hi are both critical damage weaponskills so both WS and TP phase are boosted by crit rate/damage. We live and breathe abyssea right now and thus right now, katanas are very strong.

- As I said, RR is where the damage is essentially coming from with Katanas. Ignoring atmas, Katanas are weak. Yes I know Jin and Hi are both crits. I don't understand your argument with this one. Swap Katanas out with H2h on MNK with RR and you will get out-damaged either way you look at it.. I really don't understand your point on this one - The damage with Katanas come from RR & Ninjas super low dual wield delay. I know that and have said that. What is your point?


You're building such a niche case for /dnc and then saying it's a great subjob when it's only AVERAGE when all the stars align for you. Your whm, if competent enough, is enough to heal you through anything reasonable.

Not building a niche case at all. A lot of this game - due to my time zone has to be played solo or low manned. So /DNC has become a habbit for low man situations when having to rely on less then ordinary party setups. If I am lucky enough to be with a WHM at the time I play, then I would go as /WAR. However /DNC is a great job for survivability and would pick it for a subjob in a solo circumstance anyday.


There's 6 abyssites of merit available to everyone. There's no excuse to not have them all. If you don't get HP cruor buffs in abyssea then something is wrong. With that said, anything with HP can tank. I don't see why you can't just nin/war and not bother casting shadows at all. Your whm has more than enough mp to heal you.

While true, is also not ideal, HP in abyssea is crazy of course, however a tank's job is damage prevention and holding hate off everyone else. A healer's job is to save the day if anything goes astray. (Just an opinion of course). Just because someone has a tower of HP, doesnt mean they can tank godly mobs the way a MNK or NIN can. Sure any job can take a hit, lose HP, get cure bombed. However of course this isnt ideal - even though your preeching about /WAR being the most ideal sub in the world for every circumstance possible and your a n00b if you don't sub it.


Plus, you save gil on shihei. Also, mnk have a really high counter rate. So in reality they avoid more attacks than a nin would.

For starters, merits in expertise and 100k to skill woodworking fixes the Shihei issue if that is such a big problem. Costs of tools shouldnt even come into the equation. Thought we were talking about /DNC vs. /WAR here now? I am confused... This conversation is going in circles.

Now this comment is a joke, I mean believe what you would like to believe however....
- Mnk avoid more attacks then Nin?. I am going to dip into the maths a little here since I got flamed for not doing it earlier.
Nin has a lot more base evasion as Mnk. Everyone knows that. In fact for a Mnk to counter, it has to pass the evasion check and actually get hit. So high evasion = bad counters.

Lets assume both classes are well geared and skilled. The nin will evade 80% of the time and get hit / lose a shadow 20% of the time. (80% was worked out to be the evasion cap - you will always get hit ~20% of the time give or take a few %)
I don't know the exact cap for counter, however let's assume this MNK has atmas like roaring laughter, gear etc that end up with around 80% counter rate (which is damn high, because I have only seen MNK's at 70%. Correct me if I am wrong here for all of you MNK's.

This in a sense means that the counter rate for MNK =/= Nin's evasion. (Numbers could be a little off - don't know full specifics).

Oh wait I am missing something here aren't I?

Oh right! Even if the Nin didn't have +2 feet, he would still avoid an extra 7 melee hits every 60 seconds worst case sceneario..(ignoring TP as MNK's can't counter TP as far as I am aware)

So in response to your comment - No I do not agree with the above statement. MNK cannot avoid as many hits as Ninja. What MNK hias that NIN doesn't is the tower of HP behind it. BOTH jobs have their place.


But who cares? /dnc works, /pup works, /smn works, /brd works, /drg works, etc. Just because it works doesn't mean it's good.

Now your just being ignorant. For certain situations, /DNC is an ideal sub. Yes, /WAR is better for overall DPS & Procs - I will agree with you, however to call /DNC a gimp subjob is far from the truth. /DNC has their place on many occasions.


There is no wrong subjob but better = better and gimp = gimp. It's all so very insignificant because of abyssea. You could be nin90/smn1 and still get a Kannagi just duo with you and your whm and you wouldn't have a problem, maybe it'll take you one or two days longer due to losing /war for those red proc ws, so all it costs is time. But I wouldn't say /smn1 is good just because it worked for me.

No you are right there - no subjob is wrong. Nin/Drg for all I care, and yes there are "better" or "more ideal" subjobs depending on the situation. I personally wouldn't attempt to solo Briareas as an example with /WAR (even though I am sure it's possible) as I have with /DNC simply for survivability purposes.

As most of the things I personally do for myself are solo'd or at most duo'd - I will pretty much always go as /DNC simply because it has more survivability then /WAR. Sure for LS events or big events I will go for /WAR simply for DPS - however as I will repeat and close with - /DNC is not as gimp as you make it out to be.

On a final note, I am sick of this thread - because there are arguments for both cases and this could go on forever.

I will continue to use /DNC when I see the situation suits it, and you can go believing it's gimp all you like. I can assure you there are a lot more things you can solo as /DNC then there are as /WAR. That lads, is why the job is not gimp.

Caio

[Alderin]

I wouldn't even say that MNK > NIN for tanking even if you forget about procs altogether. There are quite a few situations where what NIN has to offer (5/4 shadows, various ninjutsu spells, etc.) are much handier than Counterstance. It all really just depends on the situation, none is universally superior or even generally superior than the other.

+2

Agreed.

[Mojo]

It's fallacious to say that Razed Ruins is uniquely responsible for high katana damage. Weapon skills aside, it affects all melee weapons mostly equally. No weapon type is going to benefit from it moreso than any other in terms of sheer melee swings. In regards to weapon skills, it does help katana because Blade: Jin and Blade: Hi can crit, but crit weapon skills are not unique to katana.


Ascetic's Fury
Victory Smite
Evisceration
Vorpal Blade
Chant du Cygne
Rampage
Raging Rush
Ukko's Fury
Drakesbane
Blade: Jin
Blade: Hi
Hexa Strike
Jishnu's Radiance

All of those weapon skills and the weapon types that have access to them are thus enhanced by Razed Ruins in an almost equal way. The only exception to this is when the weapon skills can benefit from the 50 DEX through an increased WSC. Blade: Jin & Evisceration have a 30% DEX modifier while Jishnu's Radiance & Chant du Cygne have 60% DEX modifiers. Thus those weapon skills will receive either +12~13 or +25~26 to their WD from that 50 DEX. While nice, it's hardly exceptional, especially when contrasted to what other weapon skills may receive from cruor buffs. Blade: Jin vs Ascetic's Fury, for example.


Weaponskill STR VIT DEX
Ascetic's Fury 50% 50% 0
Blade: Jin 30% 0 30%

Assuming you're using Razed Ruins/Gnarled Horn/Apocalypse, then you're going to net +90/120 DEX, +40/70 STR & +40/70 VIT in various Abyssea zones. For Blade: Jin, this equates to WD +32~34 in Visions/Scars zones, WD +47-49 in Heroes zones. For Ascetic's Fury, it's WD +34 in Visions/Scars zones, WD +58-60 in Heroes zones.

I did leave a few things out. Classes that have critical attack bonus traits or gear will experience lower marginal gains from the +30% critical attack bonus on Razed Ruins. Ninja gets Kamome & Qirmiz Tathlum (also Loki's on Blade: Hi) for +15-20%, Monk has Impetus, which I'm not sure how to quantify, but I remember someone saying that it will average less than 15% and that's only while Impetus is up. Classes that experience enhanced critical hit rate through gear or abilities (Ninja with Innin, Monk with Impetus) will experience a lower marginal gain from the +30% critical hit rate on Razed Ruins.

Either way, saying that katana benefits Razed Ruins more than weapon class with a crit based weapon skill just isn't true. Hand-to-hand, for the most part, rides Abyssea buffs even moreso than katana.

Also, in regards to Berserk. Every weapon class benefits from this virtually equally unless you don't need it to cap your cRatio. Capped cRatio doesn't occur often without Berserk anyways. So, for the overwhelming majority of situations, Berserk is going to affect all weapon classes equally. The exception to this is when the weaponskill you're using doesn't use pDIF. There are a few of them, such as Wildfire, that behave this way, but those are niche cases. So implying that Berserk is somehow less considerable because of Razed Ruins or katanas or whatever is also fallacious.

[Juxtaposition]

I should note that all of my arguments are under the assumption of an ideal party setup; that is, a (reasonable) tank, a (reasonable) healer, and a utility (WAR for red, BLM for grellow, etc.) If you are soloing or duoing with two melees, for instance, I do not consider that to be ideal, and thus /DNC or MNK/NIN becomes viable. When I call /DNC a gimp subjob, it is in the context of an ideal party setup. Sorry for the confusion. That said I have a few more things to touch on.


How many of those 4x was a BRD spell?

Those four times were with Threnody, sorry I was unclear. The point I was making was that just because it so happened to occur once doesn't mean that it is the norm.


I am on no specific side as I know that NIN and MNK are both great tanks. I don't believe one is "better" at tanking then the other because that depends on player skill, gear and atma of course. So I will be honest - don't really have an argument there. From your original post I had that "MNK's pwn" impression - In which I stand corrected. Yes MNK's suck at red, and ninjas have a lot more options in that department.

NIN and MNK are both great tanks, I agree. THF and DNC are also passable tanks. PLDs are bad tanks. Conceptually, MNKs are superior tanks to NIN, player skill, gear and atmas have no consideration when discussing a class theoretically because the classes should be assumed to be played at their best.

That is not to say that MNKs are always the superior tank. Indrik is a prime example of a NIN fight; being able to bypass Scintillant Lance as a NIN is huge when it will regularly one shot MNKs is a huge boon. That said, fights where NINs are preferred over MNKs are few and far between, which is why MNK is superior.

And because someone will comment on the PLD can of worms I opened, PLDs are bad tanks because they rely on cooldowns, MP, and do not bring damage. MP I know is not a big issue in abyssea, but it is a limitation nonetheless. Cooldown dependency is a big issue because once you pop your enmity generating abilities, PLDs are a sitting duck for a DD to TP on the mob and steal hate. Their inability to deal damage is worse than you might first expect because once Johnny DD steals hate, PLDs have a hard time reclaiming it, opposed to a MNK or NIN who can easily WS to reclaim hate. Extended fights are even worse due to the enmity cap. The final nail in the coffin is a vast amount of abyssean NMs utilize hate resets. Aside from their cooldowns, PLDs cannot easily reclaim hate with a WS like NINs and MNKs can.

Enough about PLD.


- You're right about the 90% thing, I just mean there are really good chance to proc red in a nin+blm duo (subbing war adds seraph blade and raiden trust to your arsenal, no more no less), and pls explain why you think i shouldn't have an event polearm (which i have since 2005)

/WAR gives access Red Lotus Blade, Seraph Blade, Earth Crusher, Seraph Strike, and Raiden Thrust. That is five more or a 38% proc rate increase. I figured you didn't have the event polearm because you seemed to favor using /DNC which implies that you care/know little about red procs.


- I doubt a mnk/nin can land hojo, since it's a nin48 spell. no need of further explanation about that.

Who cares about Hojo? The only non-elemental ninjutsu is Kurayami.


- mnk+whm guarantees blue procs during 22-7. If you're farming af3+1/+2 item, going mnk+whm simply doesn't work that nicely.

There is no gear that drops from +1 or +2 NMs that is worth giving up grellow procs for. If there is some piece of gear that you simply must have, then save a pop for blunt o'clock.


- /war and /dnc depend on what you are fighting: for example kiting briareus every miute after a tp move hurts your damage more than throwing a violent frlourish. just choose the appropriate sub for the situation (or choose your favourite one).

That is a highly specialized reason for /DNC. My arguments are for general purpose, typical day-to-day Ninja-ing. /DNC for stunning Briareus is a good use for the sub (but then you have to leave abyssea and lose your lights and time, trade-offs!)


Sorry for the punctuation, but i'm not an english native speaker when i see someone writing in italian i usually try to help him/her improve instead of complaining...

For what it is worth, this post was leagues above your previous. For the future, try to consistently use capital letters and punctuation. Grammar and sentence structure is far less important.

[Mojo]

Eh, again, MNK being generally ahead of NIN for tanking is just an assumption.


Job D Main D Sub D Kicks ν Main ν Sub ν Kicks ν DMG TP/hit ν TP ν WS WD Main WD Sub fTP Main fTP Sub WS DMG ν WS DMG
Monk 93 93 104 0.47732 0.47732 0.068536 95.90926 5.3 5.42283 0.0542283 217 217 2.73809 3.35559 1322.32856 71.70766688
Ninja 70 51 0 0.79415 0.79415 0.000000 96.09215 4.5 7.14735 0.0714735 213 194 4.40059 1.45559 1219.71013 87.17695198

I don't have the energy to come up with a long winded explanation of everything here, but you can probably figure it out by looking at it and thinking for a while (ν means frequency.) It's my Kannagi NIN/WAR vs my Verethragna MNK/WAR in a Heroes zone with Haste only.

Minor things were ignored (such as AF3+2 set bonuses and WS TP), but it does show that NIN & MNK melee DoT are nearly identical. MNK has the upper hand for average WS damage, but NIN has such an advantage in TP gain that it makes up for and overcomes this. So, in the case of disregarding casting times and ability stasis, then NIN is the winner in sheer DoT potential.

These comparisons come before pDIF is calculated, meaning that cRatio, critical hit rate and critical damage bonus are not considered. However, the difference in attack between these two jobs is actually quite small and the critical hit rates are going to be identical unless the MNK is under Impetus. NIN can use Innin in many situation though, which will essentially ceiling your critical hit rate at 95% (only on mobs that you can bank tank.) MNK has a base of +30% critical damage bonus (which can be improved during Impetus), NIN has +45% for melee and +50% for WS. Either way, it's difficult to say which job has the advantage in regards to pDIF because there are so many unpredictable variables, but I if I went from my gut feeling I'd say that NIN has the upper hand usually.

This also ignores yet another variable, perhaps the variable, which is Counter. If MNK DoT potential ever exceeds NIN DoT potential (with just Haste spell, that is) then it's because of this. It's difficult to really quantify how much it helps, but consider that most mobs have a delay of 240, or 4 seconds. Being generous and giving MNK a 70% base counter rate (50% Counterstance, 10% Melee Gaiters, 5% merits, 5% Atma of the Gnarled Horn) yields a ν Counter of 0.16625, which essentially adds 15.46125 to ν DMG. This isn't a very reliable value though because it ignores mob double attack/triple attack rates and assumes capped player accuracy (which is common but not certain) and also that your evasion is floored (this almost never occurs.) It's very much subject to change, but it's interesting to note that this 'reference' value, when added together with ν DMG & v WS DMG, is still not enough for MNK sheer DoT to overcome NIN sheer DoT.

Either way, I play MNK & NIN extensively in Abyssea and have both Empyreon weapons. Is this what I observe in terms of sheer DoT, that NIN is greater than MNK? I wouldn't say so mostly because of how cast times affect it (although this has been said already.) I just wanted to show that, if a NIN disregards casting spells and relies on cure bombing much in the same way that MNK does, its sheer DoT potential is equivalent to or often greater than a MNK's. So if that's your criteria for which tank is better (i.e. killing the quickest while being able to survive), then NIN is at least on par, certainly not behind.

[Alderin]

+2 on that post Mojo.

Excellent post.

I know I said I was staying away from this thread but I couldn't resist.

I do agree both MNK and NIN are both great tanks, and also agree that neither outpasses the other in terms of tanking ability. It all comes down to circumstance, party setup, player skill, gear, and atma. Sure, ignoring that and purely looking on a job vs. job perspective - both have potential to be beastly tanks. They just do it in a similar but different way.

I would love to see some parses on simple evasion vs. counter/guarding although I can imagine that would be difficult to test. Because essentially a tank's primary job is to not get killed. Pure DoT is certainly a positive but your post proved that both jobs are very comparable if not ( Even Match ).

Everyone's opinion is their own and I am glad to hear some other people's, however I believe it is difficult to compare the two jobs in a pure tanking ability - especially that of NIN and MNK because as stated, they do things differently in order to achieve a similar goal.

Guarding & Counter & HP vs. Evasion & Shadows.

While guarding and counter may not avoid as many attacks, the tower of HP that comes with MNK evens out this slight disadvantage. While NIN has tools (such as Migawari, that reduces the likelyhood of being 1-shot), shadows that prevent the NIN from getting hit when the evasion check fails, and pure beastly evasion (Of course not comparible to THF, that is why there is Shihei).

Finally, I do believe that NIN has more survivability then MNK in a solo sense, as MNK relies on cure-bombs to stay alive most of the time. I have seen some things that is more ideal for a MNK + WHM duo, however there are also many cases when a NIN + WHM duo is just as good - if not more ideal.

[Alderin]

I should note that all of my arguments are under the assumption of an ideal party setup; that is, a (reasonable) tank, a (reasonable) healer, and a utility (WAR for red, BLM for grellow, etc.) If you are soloing or duoing with two melees, for instance, I do not consider that to be ideal, and thus /DNC or MNK/NIN becomes viable. When I call /DNC a gimp subjob, it is in the context of an ideal party setup. Sorry for the confusion. That said I have a few more things to touch on.

That is a reasonably fair call. I would however use /DNC in some cases that I know you wouldn't - however that is based on opinion. Yes I do agree /WAR is more ideal for most circumstances when in an ideal party setup, against your every-day Abyssea NM.

Call me gimp if you like here, or call my WHM rubbish - I do however use /DNC as a sub if I know the mob I will be fighting is going to be a debuff mob - for a simple fact of being able to remove status effects without calling for them. That, and I <3 Violent Flourish.

I do trust my WHM to the end of the earth - when in my regular static. However in my opinion (and I repeat, my opinion), against some NM's, I prefer to choose a sub with more survivability over killing the NM a little faster - Death still happens even to the best of players. Increasing survivability when there is a risk of death in my opinion is always a plus - whether or not the WHM is good. Violent flourish does indeed "save the day" at times. If the WHM is /BLM then that usually isn't an issue, however on the off chance that the WHM is casting a 3-4 second spell in any manner, an NM starts to TP - it is always nice to be able to be on the ball and stun it myself.



Those four times were with Threnody, sorry I was unclear. The point I was making was that just because it so happened to occur once doesn't mean that it is the norm.

Wow, I don't doubt that it happened but that is totally out of the norm - at least from my experience. I will be honest - there has only been one time where we have been through every possible elemental spell (BLM/NIN/BLU) apart from BRD a few times and it hasn't proc'd so we assumed it was a BRD spell. So I am sure it happens, I just personally havn't seen it as often as people state.

I guess there must be a little bit of luck involved there.


NIN and MNK are both great tanks, I agree. THF and DNC are also passable tanks. PLDs are bad tanks. Conceptually, MNKs are superior tanks to NIN, player skill, gear and atmas have no consideration when discussing a class theoretically because the classes should be assumed to be played at their best.

Very true on half of that statement. The ideal tanks in the game re NIN, MNK, THF & DNC. PLD's I will agree are less then ideal when tanking in Abyssea - however I believe PLD is still at a top-teir level outside of Abyssea.

We can disagree with this all day - I believe MNK and NIN both have their advantages and disadvantages in certain circumstances. Neither outpasses the other for absolutely every circumstance. In the end - is gear circumstantial? Yes. Is party setup circumstantial? Yes. The whole game is based on circumstances in which some setups outpass the other - and to compare NIN & MNK in a flat out tanking war, I believe it is impossible to call the winner - due to the aforementioned "circumstance".


That is not to say that MNKs are always the superior tank. Indrik is a prime example of a NIN fight; being able to bypass Scintillant Lance as a NIN is huge when it will regularly one shot MNKs is a huge boon. That said, fights where NINs are preferred over MNKs are few and far between, which is why MNK is superior.

Responded to the last part of your quote without reading this one.

True MNK is not ideal in all circumstances, however I disagree with the point that MNK can "out-tank" most other NM's as NIN can pretty much do the exact same with an ideal party setup. If we go down to the nit and grit of a tank's job and that is to avoid damage / stay alive - while keeping hate off everyone else - I believe both jobs are equal due to what I mentioned in the previous post.

Guard & Counter & HP vs. Evasion & Shadows.

Both are comparable. A NIN can tank as much as a MNK can - they just do the job differently.


And because someone will comment on the PLD can of worms I opened, PLDs are bad tanks because they rely on cooldowns, MP, and do not bring damage. MP I know is not a big issue in abyssea, but it is a limitation nonetheless. Cooldown dependency is a big issue because once you pop your enmity generating abilities, PLDs are a sitting duck for a DD to TP on the mob and steal hate. Their inability to deal damage is worse than you might first expect because once Johnny DD steals hate, PLDs have a hard time reclaiming it, opposed to a MNK or NIN who can easily WS to reclaim hate. Extended fights are even worse due to the enmity cap. The final nail in the coffin is a vast amount of abyssean NMs utilize hate resets. Aside from their cooldowns, PLDs cannot easily reclaim hate with a WS like NINs and MNKs can.

+2. Agreed completely. However I do believe PLD still has their place outside Abyssea as one of the higher tier tanking jobs. (Didn't say highest, just higher).

There are arguments - and a lot of truth behind both of our points. I know this discussion won't come to a close, however I am in a much calmer state due to the absense of trolling I read in your later posts Juxt.

I apologise for my previous assumption on your mentality, and can understand where you are coming from on the points you are making. This discussion as evolved from being trolled to something a lot more grown up and reasonable.

[Xikeroth]

Wait til voidwatch, MNK without abyssea = worthless tanks. Then it'll be PLD and NIN game again

[saevel]

I highly disagree about the crud said on PLD's tanking. If your PLD is /WAR and doing the taco / defender / tanking atma think, then yeah he's an idiot and would do just as bad on NIN as on PLD or even MNK. PLD/NIN With the ~exact~ same atma that the MNK or NIN would use, RR / GH / Apoc using a high DMG main hand weapon and either spamming Vorpal blade or CDC if they have an almace. Off hand can be another sword on weaker NM's or a shield on truly dangerous sh!t. They deal more then enough damage to maintain capped hate, flash is just used for initial hate spike and for recasting shadows. Sentinel can be used as either a hate tool (sentinel -> flash -> WS) or as an emergency "stay alive" tool.

You guys are just getting sh1tty PLD's who are still tanking in 2004/2005 era. Its about dealing enough damage to maintain capped hate and surviving all the big nasty moves until all the required !! are proced, then killing it.

[wish12oz]

I highly disagree about the crud said on PLD's tanking. If your PLD is /WAR and doing the taco / defender / tanking atma think, then yeah he's an idiot and would do just as bad on NIN as on PLD or even MNK. PLD/NIN With the ~exact~ same atma that the MNK or NIN would use, RR / GH / Apoc using a high DMG main hand weapon and either spamming Vorpal blade or CDC if they have an almace. Off hand can be another sword on weaker NM's or a shield on truly dangerous sh!t. They deal more then enough damage to maintain capped hate, flash is just used for initial hate spike and for recasting shadows. Sentinel can be used as either a hate tool (sentinel -> flash -> WS) or as an emergency "stay alive" tool.

You guys are just getting sh1tty PLD's who are still tanking in 2004/2005 era. Its about dealing enough damage to maintain capped hate and surviving all the big nasty moves until all the required !! are proced, then killing it.

This statement is true enough, but mnk/thf/nin swing faster and would be the mobs center of attention more often simply because of that. Also, anyone who is a pld and smart enough to know this, would most likely also have other jobs leveled and play them to make things die faster, since pld does much less damage, it's not like any of paladins defensive abilities are required.

[saevel]

since pld does much less damage

This part is complete and utter BS. A taco / defender PLD/WAR using "tanking" atma's will deal crap damage, a PLD/NIN using DD gear and DD atma's will deal amazing damage. Having the letter P L D as your job doesn't suddenly give you damage -50% hidden JT, so stop treating it as such. Swords actually have one of the highest damage to delay ratio's in the game, their fast, they hit hard and have access to a critical hit WS. PLD's just lack any native offensive JT / JA instead being built around defensive JT / JTs. Thankfully /NIN provides a 30% (25+5) DW bonus.

And like I said before abyssea isn't about "maximum damage" while measuring the size of each others pen1ses. Its about procing various !! then killing the monster afterwords. The "tank" just needs to deal enough damage to maintain capped hate, after this no amount of additional damage will enable him to tank better. Heck we're suffering a problem of too much damage as the NM's are dieing before we've had a chance to proc everything we want to proc.

We need to stop this constant stream of "X is the absolute best at Y and therefor is superior to Z" type comparisons / posts. They do absolutely nothing but hurt the community while spreading false information. I've successfully tanked most NM's on BLU/NIN before. Abyssea has greater flexibility then any previous expansion / system. You can have DNC / PUP's and even WHM's "tank" things if you want. There is nothing that a "MNK" tank will enable you to do that you couldn't already do with NIN / PLD / BLU / DNC / THF / WAR / ect. MNK is just the "easiest" as there is literally no skill involved, read a forum and equip the gear / atma they tell you to. Hit the monster and keep counter-stance up as much as possible while occasionally casting shadows. Then go get a beer and make a sandwich.

[Akujima]

Agree with the post above.
Get all these number crunchers outta here.
Bring back the word "Fun" into the game.

You're turning this into some kind of science experiment for crying out loud.

[wish12oz]

And like I said before abyssea isn't about "maximum damage" while measuring the size of each others pen1ses.

Actually, this is what the game is about. And the only reason you think PLD does good damage is you have never really seen what a good melee can do. Why would you want to take 20 minutes to kill something, when you could do it in 5, why kill something once when you could have killed it 4 times?

Maybe your idea of fun is wasting peoples time and doing things inefficiently, but it's not mine, and it's not anyone else's when they have to wait for you. It's not about doing more damage to keep hate better, everyone knows once you cap enmity you don't have to do much to stay there, it's about other jobs killing faster while tanking just as well and reducing the amount of time you have to spend fighting things.

[Akujima]

Actually, this is what the game is about...

so how big is your pen1s?

[wish12oz]

so how big is your pen1s?

Why do you have such a problem with being successful in FFXI and doing things quickly?

[Akujima]

Why do you have such a problem with being successful in FFXI and doing things quickly?

Because your attempt at being succesful, requires others to "fail", and therefore promotes imbalance and conflict.
Your world involves "Noobs" and "Pros". But for there to be 1 "Pro" there needs to be 10~20 "Noobs". In the process of a "Pros" rise in status quo, brings about the exploitation of those "beneath"

It's simply a micro scale model of the current monopolistic society.

But the obvious reply to my post is that I'm just another "Noob" and nobody give's a $#!% about me. But that's not true, why? Because I don't live in the perception of "Your World"

[wish12oz]

Because your attempt at being succesful, requires others to "fail", and therefore promotes imbalance and conflict.
Your world involves "Noobs" and "Pros". But for there to be 1 "Pro" there needs to be 10~20 "Noobs". In the process of a "Pros" rise in status quo, brings about the exploitation of those "beneath"

It's simply a micro scale model of the current monopolistic society.

But the obvious reply to my post is that I'm just another "Noob" and nobody give's a $#!% about me. But that's not true, why? Because I don't live in the perception of "Your World"

You're only a noob if you choose to be. Everyone can be the best, it isn't hard, some people, like yourself just don't care to try. That is what qualifies people as noobs, and nothing else. Bad players also do not need to exist for any reason, if everyone was good, the game would be a lot more enjoyable. Like for instance, you wouldn't have to wait an hour for people to kill Briarius, or anything else! Because everyone would be good and proc/kill quickly.

[Karbuncle]

Disclaimer: This won't apply to everyone, so if you're reading this and think "Who's he talking to?" assume its not you.
~~~~~~~


I love when people assume its impossible to be good at a game, and also enjoy it. I know one thing, When i look at Karbuncle, I want to be proud of my gear and proud of how i play, and i certainly enjoy doing everything i can to learn my job, Become better at it, gear myself right, and know the mechanics of how to play the game so i can further improve myself.

And guess what?

I F**king love this game

If you don't like E-Peen battles, You may not like the MMO genre. the biggest driving point in an MMO is that its an ever evolving game with ever changing goals, to be the best at what you do. If you want to play without any consequences or people hating your way, You might enjoy a Single player RPG Better, it might be more enjoyable. If you want Social Interaction i hear "outside" is a great game for that.

But as Wish Said, Some people enjoy playing this game well, and doing their jobs in a way that won't hinder everyone around them. I for one like to do my best to be the best i can be on the job i Play. I spend a lot of time gearing up, Leveling new jobs, and learning how to do things well so when i do things with my friends, I don't impede them, or become the "third leg from hell".

But i don't shoot them down either, Sometimes my brother wants to play DRK, or RNG, and i let them cause I know its important to have fun in a game.

But there's also the point where you have to accept in an MMO, there is a right way, and a wrong way to play. You can play how you want, You just need to accept sometimes the way you want to play is not efficient, and not everyone will embrace your "Style". It doesn't mean you shouldn't do it, You just need to be able to accept criticism or different opinions on the subject without resorting to name calling.

[saevel]

Umm if I read your post properly your dissing not only on NIN but on all "not perfect" jobs? This is because we've never mentioned people playing "alternative" styles on NIN.


If you don't like E-Peen battles, You may not like the MMO genre.

This is horse sh!t. Having played over a dozen MMO's I can say with authority that while every MMO does have elements of e-peen waiving, I've never ~ever~ seen it as bad as in FFXI. You people take the concept of "perfection" to such an extreme that it discourages fun and fair game-play. Things get to the point that "if your not X job doing Y function, then you need to either level X job or jump off a bridge and die". You get people like wish who turn into obvious trolls and go around like their some sort of super "elite" player. You get sites like BG that become this cesspit of elitism, where they stand around all day and pat each others back and tell each other how great they are and how much everyone else sucks. In effect you try to mold the game for the 1~5% group instead of the 95% group. We saw this with the "WAR SAM MNK BRD BRD RDM" mentality that consumed the game so much that people were quitting due to lack of enjoyment / participation. Where content was being made accessible only to the 5% and not to the 95%.

This applies to this conversation because we're discussion possible tanks and their levels of effectiveness. To be a "tank" you need to generate enough enmity that the monster is focused on you and not on other players. In FFXI the most efficient method for generating enmity is hitting sh!t really hard really fast. There is also a hard cap on the amount of enmity you can have at any one point in time. This would lead to the logic that the requirement for tank should be to hit the enmity cap as fast as possible and maintain that cap throughout the fight. There is no requirement to deal the *most* damage, only to deal enough damage to maintain enmity cap. NIN is capable of doing this fairly easily, and it also provides shadows for damage mitigation / enmity conservation.

In short, there is absolutely ~NOTHING~ that a MNK *tank* would enable you to do over a *NIN* tank. When we start talking about kill times we're not limited by damage, we're limited by red / green / blue procing. For this end the MNK and NIN fights both take the same time, if anything the MNK fight would be longer as the MNK has no way of discerning red proc while the NIN can use Ei / Yu to get readings.

[Akujima]

Disclaimer: This won't apply to everyone, so if you're reading this and think "Who's he talking to?" assume its not you.

I should follow Karbuncle around some more.

I think he/she is starting to like my nonchalant attitude.

[wish12oz]

This is horse sh!t. Having played over a dozen MMO's I can say with authority that while every MMO does have elements of e-peen waiving, I've never ~ever~ seen it as bad as in FFXI. You people take the concept of "perfection" to such an extreme that it discourages fun and fair game-play. Things get to the point that "if your not X job doing Y function, then you need to either level X job or jump off a bridge and die".

I fail to see the problem with this mentality, stop trying to put perfectionists down, if it wasn't for us, you would still be exping at 3k an hour and thinking it's effing amazing, farming 1 empyrean weapon a month and thinking it was fast, etc. My idea of fun is being the best, if it's not yours, thats fine, but don't come on these boards or any other and insult my ideals, and not expect me to insult you and yours back. Maybe if you weren't so terrible at this game you could find people to do stuff with and get the best stuff, then you wouldn't be here whining about how inferior you are.

[Greatguardian]

Maybe if you weren't so terrible at this game you could find people to do stuff with and get the best stuff, then you wouldn't be here whining about how inferior you are.

This x 1,000. There is so much hate on here for players who are actually freaking good at the game. We must all have hordes of linkshell slaves to get everything for us and kiss our asses, or be the ass kissers ourselves. We must all be soulless jackasses who screw over others at every opportunity and have no real friends.

Screw that.

It only takes one good player to solo most level 85 Empyreans. My "Abyssea group" is 3 freaking people + 1 THF mule who sometimes plays, and we all have Empyreans and at least 1 full set of AF3+2 (our Taru friend didn't have a PC for like 4 months so he's way behind, and he still finished an Almace for his BLU a couple weeks ago). We have fun, we do shit for each other, and it's not freaking hard.

Contrary to popular belief, the actual FFXI Elite doesn't look up to the tards who run around with hordes of asskissing noobs to use to get Empyreans. Those guys are gutter trash, but the people they abuse are no better. Any FFXI Player worth half a shit can just walk into Abyssea with a couple friends and complete whatever the hell they want. If you suck ass at the game, or you don't have any friends who don't suck ass at the game, fix that first and then try again. No, that doesn't particularly mean "Make new friends". If your friends aren't complete self-righteous bungholes, they'll listen to solid advice and improve themselves willingly. If you're a self-righteous bunghole who refuses to improve, that's fine. But don't hate on the "Elite" when you're the only person holding yourself back.

[wish12oz]

My "Abyssea group" is 3 freaking people + 1 THF mule who sometimes plays, and we all have Empyreans and at least 1 full set of AF3+2

My group is currently 8 people, 12 accounts, we've done uh... 7 empyreans, everyone has an empyrean, and at least 3 full sets of af3+2, even our mules are better geared then most other players. The only exception to this is that we acquired 3 new members very recently, and they're not super well geared, YET. But we do things like pass everything they want to them before we established members take it for our 4th or 5th or even 6th/7th/not leveled jobs.

And I've never been in an LS that's all about farming for the leaders, that's not my style and I wouldn't put up with it. Any LS I was ever in that acted like that I quickly left as soon as I noticed. Under no circumstances do I advocate that sort of playstyle, and I look down on anyone who runs anything that way or stays around when they see it's run that way.

http://sovietspacedogs.livejournal.com/

[Akujima]

I fail to see the problem with this mentality, stop trying to put perfectionists down, if it wasn't for us, you would still be exping at 3k an hour and thinking it's effing amazing, farming 1 empyrean weapon a month and thinking it was fast, etc. My idea of fun is being the best, if it's not yours, thats fine, but don't come on these boards or any other and insult my ideals, and not expect me to insult you and yours back. Maybe if you weren't so terrible at this game you could find people to do stuff with and get the best stuff, then you wouldn't be here whining about how inferior you are.

I'm pretty sure its you and GG that have the inferiority complex. Being the ones who have to prove themselves so superior in a video game. Needing to "Be the Best" and all that jazz. You're good at gloating how "good" you think you really are, and whether that's true or not, people like saevel and I are just sick of hearing about it.

[Greatguardian]

I'm pretty sure its you and GG that have the inferiority complex. Being the ones who have to prove themselves so superior in a video game. Needing to "Be the Best" and all that jazz. You're good at gloating how "good" you think you really are, and whether that's true or not, people like saevel and I are just sick of hearing about it.

I could care less about being "The best", but that's a far cry away from caring about being half decent at the game. FFXI is not super hard bro, but contrary to popular belief it does take an IQ greater than potato to actually succeed at it. It may be easy as shit for any good FFXI player who can understand high school algebra to solo an Empyrean weapon and get tons of AF3+2, but that doesn't mean anyone can solo an Empyrean.

Expecting people to have an IQ greater than potato and to put a modicum of effort into translating high school algebra is just way too much. It's easier to rag all day on the people who do get shit done, and talk about "elitist jerks who only care about +2s, who can only mash 1-2 macros like WoW, who have no creativity, and only worry about comparing epeen damagez with each other".

The people coming up with unorthodox new strategies that actually succeed are never the hipster tards. They're the "number crunching geeks" who know enough about the game to actually succeed at thinking outside the box.

[Akujima]

This is horse sh!t. Having played over a dozen MMO's I can say with authority that while every MMO does have elements of e-peen waiving, I've never ~ever~ seen it as bad as in FFXI. You people take the concept of "perfection" to such an extreme that it discourages fun and fair game-play. Things get to the point that "if your not X job doing Y function, then you need to either level X job or jump off a bridge and die". You get people like wish who turn into obvious trolls and go around like their some sort of super "elite" player. You get sites like BG that become this cesspit of elitism, where they stand around all day and pat each others back and tell each other how great they are and how much everyone else sucks. In effect you try to mold the game for the 1~5% group instead of the 95% group. We saw this with the "WAR SAM MNK BRD BRD RDM" mentality that consumed the game so much that people were quitting due to lack of enjoyment / participation. Where content was being made accessible only to the 5% and not to the 95%.

I don't usually try to gang-up vs the "min/max'ers"... but, yea... Dude you are on the ball with this.

If SE knows what they're doing, and they actually want the majority of players (that's where the $ is) to enjoy the game, they'll consider expanding their horizons beyond the point of cowering down to the feet of the ever persistent, outspoken and self-proclaimed "Best of the Best". Then we might actually see the implementation of dynamic game mechanics, that look further than the limited view of: Who has the most "bling-bling" gear, wins.

Something with more cooperative focus, where we work together as a team, and do away with the "10 commandments of purist elitism". The first of which being "Thou shall not let the NIN without a Kannagi, DO anything".

[Greatguardian]

If some group isn't letting your NIN do anything, I promise the problem is a lot bigger than lacking a Kannagi.

[Akujima]

Minimize what the other guy said, Maximize what I say

Yea but your so called perfectionism is so far past the point of being fanatical, its scary. You dump on people with complete disregard for their feelings, simply because "feelings" don't do any DPS. The gap between "good players and bad players" is just getting bigger and bigger, because of this small minority of super heroes that trot around their online avatars, forgetting they're actually playing a game sometimes (heaven forbid we allow games to be just recreational).

Economics is NOT just numbers man. People aren't going to buy a product if they don't enjoy it. People aren't going to continue playing this game, if they are to be contantly excluded by the "Mensa of FFXI" from forums such as these. Yet it's sad to think that SE might actually make the mistake of listening to you, because after all, you're the babies that cry the loudest.

Consider me the voice of those who are too fed up to bother saying anything about all you "min/max'ers"... Luckily, I still have hope that one of you out there can figure out there's more important things in life than just being "Top Dog". And the only reason you get so riled up at my posts, is because the $#!% I spew, strikes a chord so deep down inside, that it rattles the foundation of your most cherished beliefs.

[Greatguardian]

My god it's almost like he's attacking a made up person with beliefs that he has dictated for him in order to make it vulnerable to his crap.

I think I've heard of something like this before.

Oh yeah. It's a strawman.

I've said a dozen times that there is a huge difference between being "The best" and being half decent and understanding the basics of the game. I've said a dozen times that there's absolutely nothing wrong with dicking around on for-fun combos as long as it's not negatively impacting someone else's game experience directly.

You'd know that if you bothered to read a single post anyone ever made against you.

[Akujima]

Well I have a pretty good understand of how YOUR game functions: Get good gear. Be the best.

As far as understanding the basics? I've played XI since NA release man, with a few short breaks here and there, so you figure it out. Just because I don't speak in binary code with you, doesn't mean that I don't know about "The haste cap" and whatever else you're so worried about me understanding.

The only reason I've stopped playing, is because FF transformed from being a fun challenging game, into being: Compete over getting mediocre gear. Fight with each other about "Who is the best".

[wish12oz]

As far as understanding the basics? I've played XI since NA release man, with a few short breaks here and there, so you figure it out. Just because I don't speak in binary code with you, doesn't mean that I don't know about "The haste cap" and whatever else you're so worried about me understanding.

Except every FF game functions differently........ and you obviously have no understanding of game mechanics because you never say anything relating to actually knowing them.



The only reason I've stopped playing, is because FF transformed from being a fun challenging game, into being: Compete over getting mediocre gear. Fight with each other about "Who is the best".

You perfectly described the old Kings/HNM/sky scene, not the current abyssea scene, and used it as an excuse for quitting. End game is better now, not worse, and everyone can succeed at it, not 1 person a week.

[Greatguardian]

Well I have a pretty good understand of how YOUR game functions: Get good gear. Be the best.

As far as understanding the basics? I've played XI since NA release man, with a few short breaks here and there, so you figure it out. Just because I don't speak in binary code with you, doesn't mean that I don't know about "The haste cap" and whatever else you're so worried about me understanding.

The only reason I've stopped playing, is because FF transformed from being a fun challenging game, into being: Compete over getting mediocre gear. Fight with each other about "Who is the best".

I've noticed that, more often than not, players who use how long they've played as a testament to how well they understand the game actually understand it the least.

It doesn't matter if someone's played for 10 days or 10 years, with 20 level 10 jobs or 20 level 90s. Understanding mechanics is understanding mechanics. No one's going to just take your word for it that you understand anything about the game when your posts seem to indicate otherwise.

[Karbuncle]

Well, Glad I Didn't have to continue all this jazz. You guys seem to have it covered. Will like to touch on one thing again.

If you don't feel the goal of an MMORPG, an Ever-Expanding Game that offers you new goals, New challenges, and new armor, Is to conquer all those challenges, Get all that gear, and experience all that they give you. What is it?

In my opinion, MMORPGs aren't just some lame excuse for a social interaction. They're an ever evolving game that offers serious players goals to obtain, new armor to look forward too. I understand there are some players who enjoy other aspects, but the core design of an MMO is gear, Challenge, and making yourself better. I'm sorry if thats not your opinion on it.

When i picked up FFXI literally back in the BEta stage of the game. The first thing i did was go kill things, then stare at how cool the Crystals looked in my Inventory, didn't even know what they were for. Just... Staring at the awesome Crystals.

Eventually Beta ended and i forgot about FFXI for about a year, Eventually i picked it up again though. Made my Own Character. I Can't recall the exact date, but i know i picked THF, Leaping Lizzy still dropped Leaping Boots, and Chains of Promathia wasn't even a teaser trailer.

I leveled like a nub, I was a THF/SMN at some point, had gimp armor, and was flat out terrible. But so was everyone. Despite that I came to enjoy the game a lot.

By the time i had a serious endgame job (lv75) i had a new goal, I was going to be the best F**king THF on the server, I'm still working on that goal, And i plan to accomplish it one day. So yeah, I enjoy the MMO idea because it keeps expanding my goals to be the best. I don't want to be the best because i want to stomp on noobs, I want to be the best because I feel its a goal i can obtain. Its something i want to do for no other reason than to say I did it.

My personal opinion is, Theres no reason to pay 12.95 a month without a goal for the game. If you want to interact with your friends in game, Get skype. Or go outside. MMOs are goal oriented/driven Games by nature. If you polled 100 MMO Players in FFXI, or any other game about what they want from logging in out of these 3 choices, Assuming they all "Enjoy the game" Equally.

1) Get gear, Be good at your job.
2) Talk with people.
3) explore.

You'd be looking at ... SURVEY SAYS

Get Gear: 96
Talk: 3
Explore: 1

I'm making this up, i thought it was pretty funny though. Point being. You can enjoy the game any way you want. But its a 2 way street. Don't act like those who play the game for gear and enjoy it are so much worse than you who play the game to play the game. We all enjoy things for different reason.