job forum monitoring

[Glamdring]

I'll be the 1st to admit, most of the ideas posted in the job-specific forums are ideas to buff their 1 job at the expense of every other job and totally destroy balance with the sole purpose of being able to say "I have the damage record!" Therefore, most are to be ignored as the trash they clearly are. You are clearly succeeding at that SE.

Unfortunately, buried in all that trash are posts about very real legitimate concerns that should be addressed. The lack of any response-at all-leads the playerbase to believe that SE simply does not care. Honestly, you can look at threads by the number of responses to see player feeling on such and such topic to see that it is important to the playerbase, then read the responses and see which have likes to see which way players are wanting to go. Would it hurt to toss those concerned players a bone and show that SE is at least aware of their concerns?

Topics like beasts wanting to charm again, paladins wanting to do ANYTHING again, cor brd rng wanting to be wanted again, these and others are all very real concerns, and in many ways central to how the entire gameplay system was envisioned, but the lack of response to anything leads players to believe that even the core of the game is an issue that SE is fundamentally unconcerned about. I don't actually believe that (you want your jobs' to continue if nothing else), but a response now and then would get others to believe that you take the players seriously, too.

[wish12oz]

cor brd rng wanting to be wanted again,

You lose all credibility for saying BRD is useless. Only fools don't want CORs and BRDs, tell you what, anyone here that wants to play BRD/COR, after the update, move to odin (on ifrit right now), and send me a tell in game, names Kaerin, you can join my LS and play BRD or COR to your hearts content, we'll even pimp it like west coast customs/Xzibit~

[Glamdring]

never said they were useless, I said they weren't wanted, big difference. Caitsith they simply get no Aby love, and as we all know, there is no FFXI outside Aby. now /brd... Honestly, I'm a 90 bard, and a pretty good one (at least my regular group hasn't looked to replace me 4 years running). Nonetheless, I'm asked to come on my bst, dnc or thf more than my brd, although /brd to do Threnody !!. Bard, cor and ranger all still have utility, even paladin do when you are willing to look beyond the "cookie-cutter" approach used by most party leaders for almost anything, but without a serious change (or more properly serious promotion) these jobs will not be put into the "cookie cutter" builds. So, no want...

I'll be honest, I don't love bard, I levelled it because my beast (which I do love) got no Dynamis love, or any other end-game love for that matter, but people would fight over who got the available bards at 75. I still don't love bard, but there are times when I really would rather use it than my other jobs (no jug/pet food $ as an example). But unless my Social LS decided to take pity on it I could seek for 2-3 hours for a seals party for my bard. Ranger is so bad that I haven't seen Imrahilsquiver stocked in like a month. Cor? ROFLMAO if you think they'll get an invite ! pld, only if you can't find anything else. To get rng and cor in the mix would require a significant need for blue !! processing, which you simply don't see. Paladin basically needs to function as a ghetto war trying for red !!; but they are actually excellent at getting 1 mob off an aby puller, especially since blm are too busy trying to show off MAB numbers to sleepaga (and remember, we have no bards), because pld can still take a hit.

[wish12oz]

What you and others fail to realize is that double march doubles the damage output of all melees who receive it, if not more. I have no idea how anyone considers this anywhere near not wanted, or even useless, but then people are stupid I guess.

[Supersun]

The biggest issue really is that since things tend to die so fast and all you really need is a healer + DD to kill 99% of abyssea mobs the only real way to get all your crap faster is to bring fewer people and given how the proc system currently works certain jobs get terribly shafted in what they can proc.

My theory about the next update atm is that they are expanding the proc system. It's already been noted that it looks like from one of the images that Chi Blast is procing something. (also Grellow might have to die since we have green and yellow now D: )

Though I can certainly understand how this issue is being raised. The main jobs being updated this update are Drk, Rng, and Pup and I remember the Drk and Rng threads specifically leaking into the general forum. It could be very easy to derive that they only pay attention to the general forum for job adjustments since most of the jobs receiving buffs this update had a dedicated thread that was created in the general forum (and later moved).

This point might be important to address since if more and more people start thinking this is the case they will just start creating job specific threads in the general forum instead of the job forums like for example the Pld and Pet job threads on the general forum atm.

(also I pity whoever actually has to wade through the Rdm forums though XD)

Edit: I thought of an interesting idea. You know how a thread lists how many views it has gotten. What if there was a special column that recorded how many "dev tracker views" a thread has gotten. Like any views a thread gets by a person that if they made a post would warrant an update on the dev tracker would add 1 view to the "dev tracker view" column. That would at least give us an idea that the higher ups are watching even though they may not have anything in particular to say.

[Kayn]

about SE not looking at the job forums, i feel the same way, there's horrible issues with the automaton AI and there's a VERY well written post on the puppetmaster's forum and it was there from the get go. still no response. :/

[blowfin]

I actually think it's policy for them to not respond explicitly in job threads. To counter that, I'm sure every single thread in this forum gets read at one point or another too.

As for the reasons they don't reply in job threads? I'll take a couple of guesses. It might create feelings of favoritism amongst the playerbase if they were to single out job threads, it also might create (even more) ridiculous suggestions if the threads get attention.

[Bigboy]

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]

It is a highlighted fallacy in the thread creator's post. It is important to point out because in that sentence the creator displays a lack of understanding of the topic they chose to post about. So for the record, it is not a derail. It is a fair critic of the post, and attempting to narrow the scope of the argument so as not to include jobs he is so obviously wrong about.

If you want to actually get something done, you don't present a daunting laundry list of things that need to happen, but 1 or two things you would really like. More details, especially when they are wrong, are usually a deterrent when you are trying to convince someone to just show some interest. Once they have, then load them up with all the details you can.

[Korpg]

I kindof wish that people would post specific job queries to their specific forums. Seeing how much PLDs don't get invites should go in PLD forums, not general forums.

Generic Pet questions, however, have no specific forum to go to, since it can go to any of the pet jobs, but whats the point in posting the same question over 4 forums?

[wish12oz]

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]

I'm the guy who knows double marches makes everything die twice as fast, killing twice as fast means doing double what you would of otherwise gotten done in a set amount of time.
Let's say you take 10 min to kill some NM, and have an hour, you can kill that NM 6 times.
Now lets add a bard, it doubles your damage and you can now do that NM 12 times in an hour.
Saying the job that doubles your efficiency is not desired is just plain stupid and wrong.

I.E. if he is so wrong about this one thing he mentioned, the rest of his argument is hurt by his lack of understanding of the game. It's sort of like how you think throwing is good, even though math says it's completely terrible, he's misinformed, and I am trying to inform him. He said bards are hurting because no one wants them around, this is entirely not true, EVERYONE who is intelligent wants bards around.

It's not 'derailing' it's arguing against the points he is trying to make because he is incorrect. It's just like debating. I'm sorry you don't understand this concept.

also: everything Bigboy said.

[Glamdring]

um, guys? there was a specific point and I included bards in the no love list for a reason. The no love list are jobs that get passed over when building parties, and as a bard I can state with authority that we are one of those jobs. Now, wish might like bards in its parties, good for him, but on caitsith that just ain't happening. Atma, gear and buffs have made us largely unnecessary, and so when going low-man (the current trend) bard is simply not in the mix. We bards think we should be, as cor, rng and pld players no doubt think they should be. Apparently wish thinks we should be too, that's fine. But it doesn't put us there.

Now, players of these jobs can try to talk our jobs up all we want but since other players already know that we are unnecessary, we can't teach them that we are, because there is nothing that players need to learn, since they know different already. But if a dev, or mod comes flat out and says that ___ job does improve gameplay for all, then players will learn that they don't in fact already know what these jobs bring to the table.

The point of my original post is that if a paladin has a concern about his job the logical place for him to address it is the forum with his name on it, I would. Unfortunately, the dev/mod response seem to indicate that those forums are simply a black hole to post to, so a legitimate post, with legitimate argument might as well never have been made as far as the playerbase can tell. That's the point I want addressed; are you reading these? do you have any plans to address these? A legitimate question deserves a legitimate answer; we've seen plenty of questions, what's missing?

[Jar]

YEAH FIX COR!!

[Akujima]

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]

Yes, I do agree that the job forums are being slightly overlooked, and that trolls are continuing to toss out bogus idea's such as "Give more Dual-Wield to NIN" and "Just get rid of all the San: spells, they're pretty useless anyways". And I don't blame the developers if they're annoyed by seeing ridiculousness like that.

I have first hand experience with a thread I made in the NINJA forums -> "A Ninja Without Throwing"

Where I try to promote a dynamic factor to a job, so it can at least FEEL like it was intended to when the job was first conceived. But what do I get? Attacked.

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]

[Greatguardian]

EVERYONE who is intelligent wants bards around.

And this pretty much highlights why some Bards may feel like they're not wanted. You'd have to find an intelligent player for them to get an invite, and most (not all) intelligent players play exclusively with their friends already.

[Ravenmore]

I think why no one invites brds, lot of party leaders may still have a bad taste from brds back when ToAU merit parties were the best place to merit. Now they are not needed to get a decent rate of Exp though having them would still speed things up. It still comes back to what players do with jobs and what they are willing to do for them self. If you wait around for someone to shout for a NM that drops seals you want but don't want to go as a job they asking for tough luck.

[Korpg]

Where I try to promote a dynamic factor to a job, so it can at least FEEL like it was intended to when the job was first conceived. But what do I get? Attacked. Tag-teamed by staunch defenders of elitism, who are so blinded by their own quest for power, they could care less about "Imbalance".

Because what does balance bring? Equality. Something which they DO NOT want.

Actually, its very hard to improve on one job without weakening another. Sometimes the job you are trying to weaken by strengthen another job also hurts a third, unrelated job, so finding a perfect balance where all jobs are equally balanced is very hard to do.

Thats why it is pointless to try, and SE knows that. That is why they are bringing up their strengths because each person has their own play style. Have a SMN90 and no other jobs at 90? They will be very hard pressed to get any seals because most people only do low-man situations, which require only certain jobs. So what is that SMN90 going to do?

Level a different job.

There is no rule stating that you can only have one job, just like there is no rule stating "One job to rule them all." Everyone has their own strengths to go by, you just have to find a group of people who will accept you for who you are, not for who you are not.

[Vold]

I don't know what's up with this no brd getting invites deal. Every shout I ever see includes BRD in it for procs. /BRD isn't THAT popular.

But even then many people who do the shouting probably already have a brd. I've actually never gone to a pickup group and not seen a brd whether it was someone else or myself. I've never seen a blm/brd. But then I haven't joined many pick ups because I don't really need to.

Any LS that does Abyssea has enough brains to have a BRD and COR around. If they don't have one or the other or neither, they sure enough wished they did have those jobs as mains. You are gimp without them plain and simple. The answer to this so called problem is to start being social, join linkshells, and enjoy this MMO as it's meant to be played. And the same holds true for the other jobs. A dedicated LS will have all procs covered at all times. The only jobs that are left out of the 18 man alliance mix is DNC and SCH. I mean I might be wrong on this but I remember doing the math and it came out to like 16 or 17 must have jobs to cover all procs and there was room for 1-2 more, which probably would fit another WHM or 2 long before other jobs. Or maybe it was like 14 or 15 and I counted the extra WHMs for 16-17. Anyways.

People have been going on for awhile now about how broke Abyssea is, and really the problem isn't the procs. It's players not wanting to team up as a linkshell to take care of business. They want to do pick ups so they don't have to join a LS and make an obligation to play and that's all fine and dandy. But it doesn't mean Abyssea is broken. It's working as intended. It's just "broken" for pick up groups.

[Glamdring]

I don't know what's up with this no brd getting invites deal. Every shout I ever see includes BRD in it for procs. /BRD isn't THAT popular.

But even then many people who do the shouting probably already have a brd. I've actually never gone to a pickup group and not seen a brd whether it was someone else or myself. I've never seen a blm/brd. But then I haven't joined many pick ups because I don't really need to.

Any LS that does Abyssea has enough brains to have a BRD and COR around. If they don't have one or the other or neither, they sure enough wished they did have those jobs as mains. You are gimp without them plain and simple. The answer to this so called problem is to start being social, join linkshells, and enjoy this MMO as it's meant to be played. And the same holds true for the other jobs. A dedicated LS will have all procs covered at all times. The only jobs that are left out of the 18 man alliance mix is DNC and SCH. I mean I might be wrong on this but I remember doing the math and it came out to like 16 or 17 must have jobs to cover all procs and there was room for 1-2 more, which probably would fit another WHM or 2 long before other jobs. Or maybe it was like 14 or 15 and I counted the extra WHMs for 16-17. Anyways.

People have been going on for awhile now about how broke Abyssea is, and really the problem isn't the procs. It's players not wanting to team up as a linkshell to take care of business. They want to do pick ups so they don't have to join a LS and make an obligation to play and that's all fine and dandy. But it doesn't mean Abyssea is broken. It's working as intended. It's just "broken" for pick up groups.

Full alliance bard does get invites in my experience, but cor gets nothing. Honestly, I never see any action to cover the blue !!, only yellow and red. If a cor or ranger do get in it's generally the only job that player has.

On Caitsith, the current trend is to low-man everything, increasing the individual player's chance of the drop. Low man has no place for bard, or at least people see it that way. I think it's because they are more concerned with the DD and getting multiple kills on the same NM. I'm asked to come bst, dancer or thief, /brd because I manage to land my threnodies anyway. I rarely get resisted, only when the mob is strong to the element of the threnody (bst/brd on sedna was a bitch, it was fire threnody, twice), but if you spam it enough it will land.

However, this is off-topic, and a derail. The question was why aren't the devs/mods watching the job threads to respond to legitimate points made there? Someone decided to say that one of the examples of a legitimate concern was wrong and so the whole point of this thread keeps getting lost. I keep trying to bring it back, but responses keep trying to get it back off-topic.

[noodles355]

He said bards are hurting because no one wants them around, this is entirely not true, EVERYONE who is intelligent wants bards around.
Actually it kind of averages out. Yes, your kill speed increases with a bard, however, if you take a bard that's one more person you need to farm seals for before you disband if you already have one person on each seal. Whether the increased killspeed from the bard will outweigh the extra pops needed to complete everyone's desired AF piece is difficult to say.

[AyinDygra]

*sigh* at all the off-topic responses based on examples given. Forget the examples, and the original post is a valid concern that the Job Forums do seem to be ignored, even if that is not the case.

SOME sort of feedback from the Devs would be extremely welcome, if for no other reason than to direct conversation in directions the Devs are interested in pursuing. This would also help to weed out requests for things the Devs have decided against or go in directions the Devs are not willing to pursue (goes against their vision/plans whatever) And when they do pop up, the Dev post can be referenced to stop the conversation before it goes too far.

Dev Team posts I'd like to see would come in these main forms:
1 ) (Response) We're looking into something similar to that! (we like it!)
2 ) (Response) We've decided against that concept. (we don't like it) (reasons please?)
And most importantly:
3 ) (Discussion) We want player input on <insert subject here>, with the Dev Team's concept under discussion and background reasoning along with the direction they want to take the subject at hand. (Similar to the post on 2hrs (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/1184-New-ideas-for-v2-Two-Hour-abilities.?p=68001&viewfull=1#post68001)), the posts on Corsair's 11 roll (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/1128-dev1004-Corsair%E2%80%99s-Phantom-Roll-Ability?p=50190&viewfull=1#post50190) and the post on Craft Skill Limitations (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/4771-Craft-Skill-Limitations). These discussion posts are different from your announcement posts, ideally allowing player input BEFORE too much time has been spent on programming the features and interface, allowing player input to potentially change what is decided upon.

Don't Forget: As you did with the Corsair topic, coming back to us with the Dev Team response to the discussion made that a very encouraging interchange with the Dev Team. (a little more would have been nice - they were still really vague on what was being implemented as a result.)

[Soundwave]

They should at least come on the job section and say "Hey we really like this idea etc. can we get more feed back on this?" instead of multiple wish list threads, we could actually be responding to something that will make a difference.

Granted I'm sure all ideas are considered and then weeded out for balance...

[Greatguardian]

Honestly, there's just no easy way for the Community Team to say "Sorry, but the Devs just don't like this idea/can't implement this idea." There isn't. There are a ton of absolutely terrible/impossible ideas in the Job Forums with huge cult followings. No matter what the Com Reps say, any sort of negative response would be met with extreme hostility.

I also feel like the primary response the Com/Dev teams are getting is different from what they intended/wanted to gain from these forums. I highly doubt they want to hear everyone's ideas on "How to fix Paladin", or "How to make Puppetmaster Awesome". Instead, I think it's far more likely that they simply want to hear the concerns/issues people have with jobs so that the Developers themselves can design and implement fixes/adjustments for them.

Example:
What the Devs want to hear: "We, the players, feel that the Paladin job is focusing too heavily on Defensive abilities that may not be entirely necessary for them. Would it be possible to enhance our melee capabilities in order to allow us to better keep up with the ever-increasing strength of Damage Dealing jobs?"

What the Devs get from the Job Forums: "This is how to FIX PALADIN: Change Defense. Change Enmity. Give Paladin a higher Enmity cap. HERE ARE FIVE DIFFERENT JOB TRAITS AND JOB ABILITIES TO GIVE PALADIN TO FIX IT OKAY. Make it Paladin from WoW please. Take away Paladin's DD'ing, CdC is too strong for a tank job. No, make Paladin a better melee. No, u suck. No u. No u. No u."

(NOTE: All of these are real suggestions pulled from the Paladin job forum, albeit paraphrased to conserve space)

[Seriha]

(also I pity whoever actually has to wade through the Rdm forums though XD)I can only hope they don't listen to those who think Cure V, Reraise, and Flash are all RDM could use. I still say they're WHMs in denial. :x

As is, I kind of take the "Use a shotgun to swat a fly" approach to ideas. Put out enough of a spread, eventually you'll get lucky. I don't go into a suggestion expecting everything to be taken as is, and at times purposely overpower things if, for any reason, to get people talking about refining it. I'm not really a fan of the baby step approach as too little changes nothing while giving some the fuel to say, "Well, you got that. Shut up, our problem's more important!"

[Soundwave]

Honestly, there's just no easy way for the Community Team to say "Sorry, but the Devs just don't like this idea/can't implement this idea." There isn't. There are a ton of absolutely terrible/impossible ideas in the Job Forums with huge cult followings. No matter what the Com Reps say, any sort of negative response would be met with extreme hostility.

I also feel like the primary response the Com/Dev teams are getting is different from what they intended/wanted to gain from these forums. I highly doubt they want to hear everyone's ideas on "How to fix Paladin", or "How to make Puppetmaster Awesome". Instead, I think it's far more likely that they simply want to hear the concerns/issues people have with jobs so that the Developers themselves can design and implement fixes/adjustments for them.

Example:
What the Devs want to hear: "We, the players, feel that the Paladin job is focusing too heavily on Defensive abilities that may not be entirely necessary for them. Would it be possible to enhance our melee capabilities in order to allow us to better keep up with the ever-increasing strength of Damage Dealing jobs?"

What the Devs get from the Job Forums: "This is how to FIX PALADIN: Change Defense. Change Enmity. Give Paladin a higher Enmity cap. HERE ARE FIVE DIFFERENT JOB TRAITS AND JOB ABILITIES TO GIVE PALADIN TO FIX IT OKAY. Make it Paladin from WoW please. Take away Paladin's DD'ing, CdC is too strong for a tank job. No, make Paladin a better melee. No, u suck. No u. No u. No u."

(NOTE: All of these are real suggestions pulled from the Paladin job forum, albeit paraphrased to conserve space)

We don't know this because they don't really say, so this is just assuming what they are thinking?

[CrystalWeapon]

[...]

SOME sort of feedback from the Devs would be extremely welcome, if for no other reason than to direct conversation in directions the Devs are interested in pursuing. This would also help to weed out requests for things the Devs have decided against or go in directions the Devs are not willing to pursue (goes against their vision/plans whatever) And when they do pop up, the Dev post can be referenced to stop the conversation before it goes too far.

Dev Team posts I'd like to see would come in these main forms:
1 ) (Response) We're looking into something similar to that! (we like it!)
2 ) (Response) We've decided against that concept. (we don't like it) (reasons please?)
And most importantly:
3 ) (Discussion) We want player input on <insert subject here>, with the Dev Team's concept under discussion and background reasoning along with the direction they want to take the subject at hand. (Similar the the post on 2hrs (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/1184-New-ideas-for-v2-Two-Hour-abilities.?p=68001&viewfull=1#post68001)), the posts on Corsair's 11 roll (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/1128-dev1004-Corsair%E2%80%99s-Phantom-Roll-Ability?p=50190&viewfull=1#post50190) and the post on Craft Skill Limitations (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/4771-Craft-Skill-Limitations). These discussion posts are different from your announcement posts, ideally allowing player input BEFORE too much time has been spent on programming the features and interface, allowing player input to potentially change what is decided upon.

Don't Forget: As you did with the Corsair topic, coming back to us with the Dev Team response to the discussion made that a very encouraging interchange with the Dev Team. (a little more would have been nice - they were still really vague on what was being implemented as a result.)

I agree with you on how they should post, but I would like to add something. For ease of play, ui, cosmetic, job suggestions, etc... (minor updates), it would be nice to receive something other than the "Too costly to do atm, we're too busy with what we have planned" response. I understand that major updates should always come before things of this nature, but it would be nice to get a definitive response over vague ones to know whether or not to expect any kind of action in the distant future.

"We will see what we can do to impliment these changes."
(Will try to work it into the game within a handful of updates.)

"This is a good idea, unfortunately we cannot impliment it at this moment. We may look into it again in the future."
(We're too busy right now, but this idea isn't getting brushed under the rug. May look into it again in half a year or so.)

"This update would be too costly to impliment, unfortunately we have no interest in persuing it."
(Would be far too much work to program, we will not look into it any further.)

[Octaviane]

It would be nice to see some kind of acknowledgement from the Developers that they are indeed reading the job forum posts. Players are not expecting everything asked for/suggested to be implemented and some posts are just plain nonsensical, but, there are some very good ones that could be further explored/discussed. I like the idea of seeing a counter that shows how many times posts are read by Developers.

We know that there aren't many Developers/Moderators checking the forums plus they take the weekends off, and, Monday is update time, so I am certain they have their hands full at the moment. However, please let people in the jobs forum know that you are looking. Thanks.

[Greatguardian]

We don't know this because they don't really say, so this is just assuming what they are thinking?

It is an assumption, but an educated one. Every single time the Development Team has responded to player feedback before the implementation of these forums, it has been in the format I presented above. They are smart guys, and they have a unique outlook on the game that differs from that of us players. They have generally shown a propensity for introducing their own solutions based on the problems we present them in the past. Sometimes, this does lead to a bit of frustration because the Devs may or may not understand what exactly it is the players have a problem with, and thus fix something unrelated to the original issue. However, this does not mean that they want their hands to be held throughout the development process.

[Glamdring]

That was why I suggested focusing on the threads with high reply/view counts. Quite simply, this is an indicator that-good or bad-the post has touched a nerve with the playerbase, and is something we feel strongly about. Then you take a cursory look at the like responses, but don't set anything in stone off that; something might be liked by 14 people, but there are 400 posts in the thread about why the idea sucks or should not be a priority.

Some things are ok to leave vague in our suggestions. Noone I know of asked for anything remotely like Abyssea before it was implemented, the devs came up with that on their own and it has clearly been successful. Therefore, simply requesting that the 90-99 content take place outside the Abyssea system and leaving the devs to do as they wish is a valid request, as is asking that the new content be in Abyssea. Suggestions for job abilities, as the post above mentioned, were actually requested, although I lost that thread ages ago, those should actually go into some specifics. A Generic "fix paladin" however doesn't do anything except communicate a player's angst. Talk of revising or adding abilities and such is a bit more enlightening.

The biggest problem I see for the devs/mods (aside from the sheer volume of posts to go through) is to anticipate the direction that players will actually take jobs in if such-and-such content is added. I remember a mod at one point made a comment about how some jobs were taken in directions that the developers never envisioned by the way players used them. That is an unenviable task. Another poster here mentioned how a buff to 1 job can amount to a nerf to another, not intentionally, but still... The fact is, there are alot more of us than there are developers and so we have the capacity for more thoughts than they can anticipate and address implementing anything. Example, if they raise the hate threshold of a paladin/nin and give them the tools to reach that, all of a sudden it is free for blm, drk, rng and any other big DD to rain down maximum damage without fear of any retalliation except an AoE, since paladin can self-heal (and blm can /rdm to help him) all healer main jobs are suddenly excluded from party builds, something I guarantee you noone playing healer wants. And that was just a mild example...

All we ask for is a "we're considering it," "not a current priority," "not possible under the current combat system," etc. type of response. Yes, a negative response may not please people, but "you can't always get what you want"; at least if we know which way the wind blows we can learn to live with it, and hopefully stop harping on it. If you do make a positive response, we can give intelligent input into whatever it is if the devs need it to help "flesh out" the idea. Or we can just say "Thank you" and get out of your way...

[Seriha]

Simply judging an idea's merits by replies to a post isn't a good way to judge things, especially if later replies just break down into petty bickering or people trying to prove they know more about the game than the next guy.

In general, conversation can be improved, even if it's a simple question like, "How do you feel about Blue Mage's club selection?" Actually give us some topics to focus on and we'll hammer them down one way or another. You can pretty much do similar for all of a job's combat and magic skills, which could leader to timer reductions, duration boosts, tweaks to WS, or whatever. No single person will have the exact same ideas or goals for a class, but to use BLU as the whipping boy of examples, most of their magical damage spells prior to the cap increases stunk. Reworking them could give the job a better diversity and enrich the leveling experience... assuming you don't just key whore it to 90+.

[Soundwave]

It is an assumption, but an educated one. Every single time the Development Team has responded to player feedback before the implementation of these forums, it has been in the format I presented above. They are smart guys, and they have a unique outlook on the game that differs from that of us players. They have generally shown a propensity for introducing their own solutions based on the problems we present them in the past. Sometimes, this does lead to a bit of frustration because the Devs may or may not understand what exactly it is the players have a problem with, and thus fix something unrelated to the original issue. However, this does not mean that they want their hands to be held throughout the development process.

Fair enough:rolleyes:

[Glamdring]

Simply judging an idea's merits by replies to a post isn't a good way to judge things, especially if later replies just break down into petty bickering or people trying to prove they know more about the game than the next guy.

Oh, I never meant to exclude things from being read, I just meant that posts with alot of activity, be it response or just views is a decent jumpping off point. As an example, the "letter to the Devs from the Puppetmasters of Vanadiel" post sees alot of activity for a job post; as a Dev/Mod you might want to look there 1st in the pup forum. Each job forum has several posts like that, things that don't die because they've touched a nerve with the playerbase.

But you are right, many things don't see alot of activity, and I think you simply have to look at it in terms of the forum it sits in. The posts on Synergy/Crafting don't see nearly the traffic the job forums do, but those that do post in there feel as strongly about their topic as those in the job forums. Even the posts where people talk about the nice things they've seen in FFXI, if I'm a dev I'm looking at those to find what things players have found appealing.

[Glamdring]

*sigh* at all the off-topic responses based on examples given. Forget the examples, and the original post is a valid concern that the Job Forums do seem to be ignored, even if that is not the case.

SOME sort of feedback from the Devs would be extremely welcome, if for no other reason than to direct conversation in directions the Devs are interested in pursuing. This would also help to weed out requests for things the Devs have decided against or go in directions the Devs are not willing to pursue (goes against their vision/plans whatever) And when they do pop up, the Dev post can be referenced to stop the conversation before it goes too far.

Dev Team posts I'd like to see would come in these main forms:
1 ) (Response) We're looking into something similar to that! (we like it!)
2 ) (Response) We've decided against that concept. (we don't like it) (reasons please?)
And most importantly:
3 ) (Discussion) We want player input on <insert subject here>, with the Dev Team's concept under discussion and background reasoning along with the direction they want to take the subject at hand. (Similar to the post on 2hrs (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/1184-New-ideas-for-v2-Two-Hour-abilities.?p=68001&viewfull=1#post68001)), the posts on Corsair's 11 roll (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/1128-dev1004-Corsair%E2%80%99s-Phantom-Roll-Ability?p=50190&viewfull=1#post50190) and the post on Craft Skill Limitations (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/4771-Craft-Skill-Limitations). These discussion posts are different from your announcement posts, ideally allowing player input BEFORE too much time has been spent on programming the features and interface, allowing player input to potentially change what is decided upon.

Don't Forget: As you did with the Corsair topic, coming back to us with the Dev Team response to the discussion made that a very encouraging interchange with the Dev Team. (a little more would have been nice - they were still really vague on what was being implemented as a result.)

Exactly, this is just he kind of feedback I am asking for. As I stated in the OP, most of the threads in the job forums are just stupid and really deserve no response (with the possible exception of killing the thread... THAT'S a hint). The type of response you mention for the legitimate postings is excellent. The only additional request is when they say it is in the works a mention to any possible timetable, too... and periodically update it. i.e. pups were told the AI issues were being "looked at" over 4 years ago and as of this moment nothing has ever been done or heard from since. I would hardly call that an adequate response.