LETTER TO THE DEVELOPERS FROM THE PUPPETMASTERS OF VANA'DIEL

[Anza]

Dear FFXI development team,

Puppetmasters appreciate the increased attention given to our job since the beginning of 2010, after several years of feeling that PUP was a neglected job. Because we feel that the current development team is paying more attention to the players in general, and the PUP job in particular, we would like to bring to the attention of the dev team several key issues that the English-speaking PUP community has struggled with for a long time. These are not just my concerns, but an attempt to clearly voice some longstanding issues from many in the community. Your consideration of these issues would be greatly appreciated.

(1) Mage puppet AI.
Likely the most widespread complaint within the English-speaking PUP community. Despite the former development team suggesting that all was working as intended, the PUP community generally dislikes the Soulsoother head's priorities forcing a status removal spell over a cure whenever the master or puppet has a status effect (no way to force a Cure VI over Blindna when the master is at 50hp is not very helpful!). Many monsters that seem perfectly in line with what a PUP with adequate control over the automaton could solo become highly impractical, and usefulness of the automaton in parties is also compromised.

In addition, the high automaton HP/MP thresholds for Spiritreaver head choosing to cast Drain/Aspir is a problem for PUPs using that head. This becomes a very big issue when fighting targets where Aspir or Drain are ineffective - the puppet will cast Aspir and get a tiny amount of MP back, meaning that as soon as it can cast Aspir again it will do so and waste a cast. PUPs need a way to override this behavior and force the automaton to not cast Drain/Aspir (just as we have a way to avoid Absorb-INT, simply don't use a Dark Maneuver)

How about some AI modifications? Some possible suggestions:


a)Maneuvers.
Make Soulsoother head only use -na spells on the master and itself when a water maneuver is active (the same current prerequisite for the automaton to use those spells on other party members). For Spiritreaver, only allow Drain/Aspir when a dark maneuver is active (same condition as Absorb-INT).

b) Attachments.
Make an attachment modify the normal priorities. For example, with Damage Gauge equipped, Soulsoother will prioritize Cure spells above all else. Or make this an opportunity for Tactical Processor to do something useful.

c) Adjustments to default priorities.
Simply change the default priorities. Make the automaton always choose a cure above a -na spell, or adjust the threshold for casting Aspir or Drain (lower automaton MP/HP level).

d) Separate spell timers for Cure/-na.
Instead of operating on the shared spell timer for all spells, break status removal spells out on their own unique timer. This way the puppet can still cast Blindna, Paralyna, Poisona, etc., but that cast will not mean a long wait for the spell recast timer for an opportunity to cast that needed Cure.

There is a possible argument that the PUP can take steps to avoid the pitfalls of quirky automaton AI priorities. For example, to avoid the vicious cycle of automaton focusing only on status removal, the master can stay out of range of nasty enemy abilities as well as keep puppet at a distance. However, forcing the player to take these drastic actions to avoid AI priorities that seem non-sensible does seem to be an unnecessary limitation on the players.

(2) Weaponskill priority.
The system by which automaton weaponskills are triggered by a particular dominant maneuver is becoming cumbersome, and will become even more of a burden with new automaton weaponskills that PUPs hope are coming in the journey to level 99. In addition, some weaponskills simply get in the way (mage puppets with high HP, like Soulsoother which cures itself, become useless with vital light maneuvers since they will use the undesirable Magic Mortar). PUPs need to hold back and use otherwise useless dark maneuvers to trigger desired WS on Valoredge (Cannibal Blade) and Sharpshot (Armor Piercer) frames. Perhaps it is time to adjust this aspect of the job.

One suggestion is a simple menu - perhaps accessed through an NPC similar to the Rendezvous Point menu (changing Fellowship NPC job, use of area of effect WS, etc.) This NPC could allow the PUP to program the automaton to choose appropriate WS for the master's liking, or even set "trigger" maneuvers as chosen by the player for each automaton WS. This "Automaton Adjuster" NPC could even be expanded to address the spellcasting AI issues described above.

(3) Tactical Processor.
The PUP community has done testing for years and cannot figure out what this attachment does. Can the dev team explain this item, or adjust it? The community believes this item to either be not working as intended, have such an unusual use that it has not been discovered, or that the attachment is simply useless/nearly useless. Perhaps a change could be made to give this attachment more utility.

We appreciate your attention and hope to continue a more open dialogue with the dev team.

Sincerely,

The PUPs of Vana'diel

[Auraeon]

Extremely well written. You tackled all of the biggest concerns we Puppetmasters have about the current state of the job we hold so dear. I truly hope the development team will finally hear us out on these topics. Thanks for putting for the effort into this post!

[Linny]

I'm agree with this. Maybe this post should be in "Feed-back & Suggestion".

[Thango]

I think the problem is here.

Status Removal → Cure VI → Silence → Slow → Blind → Paralyze → Bio II → Poison

When it will be.

Cure VI → Status Removal → Silence → Slow → Blind → Paralyze → Bio II → Poison

It seems easy to fix it.

Thanks Anza.

[Zhronne]

Was about to write something like this. Would have tried to keep it shorter, but nonetheless excellent work on your side Anza.
I really like solution d) for caster issues, of all the hypothesys I've been reading and making all these years, it's the best.
Don't forget they should fix the Silence on enemies with MP. Currently mage automatons cast Silence on any target with MP, despite the fact that target does or doesn't cast spell.
But here it's probably hard to overcome the issue. I guess the AI has some "variables" it uses to tell wether or not it should do an action. Probably they had no way to put monsters in two different groups ("those who cast spells", "those who does not") so they used the presence of MP as a discriminant variable for the AI mechanism.

Also, other few things you may want to add:

1) While Puppetmasters can define themselves pretty happy with their Mage automaton damage, the same can't be said for Melee and Ranged automatons. The first needs either a new WS or some deep and big modifications to the current WS damage calculation methods (i.e. buff up damage of at least bone crusher), the second needs more TP damage. For example make it so automaton's ranged attacks can crit, just like every other ranged attack currently in-game.

2) Please make the "Ashu Talif" 8 attachments available through other means. Some of those still are the best attachments you can get, and they still are unreasonably expensive and hard to find on AH/Bazaars.

3) Stout servant is an excellent idea, but at the moment its potency is a bit lackluster. We understand additional tiers of the trait will be released, but developers are probably reluctant in doing so because it could potentially make the automaton too powerful. There is one way to give the trait more potency without ruining the balance in power of automatons: simply make it work so it greatly reduces the AoE damage of spells/abilities not directly cast on master/automaton. That way abilities/spells that directly target master/automaton will still do full damage, but other dangerous AoE will have their damage greatly reduced. This would also solve the issue that ranged automaton and mage automaton need to be under 20yalms from the target to be able to attack/cast, making it unviable in a wide range of fights.



Edit:
A very very very secondary thing I forgot about. This only affects Abyssea (which may or may not be a big part of our daily time in FFXI in the future, about that I have no clue), but it's a shame pets aren't affected by Cruor buffs. Stats do not really make a huge difference, but the MP and especially HP do. It's a shame :( Any ideas to go around this problem?

[Lushipur]

everything said by the OP will make all of us pup really happy.

and the cruor buff too please ^^

[Siviard]

I second everything that has been mentioned in this thread.

Great job, Anza

[hakrev]

Another large concern that many pups are having problems with is not being able to adequately control the nukes our puppets cast. Lets say my party triggers yellow with blizzard V, my auto continues to cast blizzard V and thus I get yelled at by my party for something i can't really control except to deactivate my auto altogether and just sit there and do nothing. Why should we be stuck standing there during a big boss fight doing nothing while every other job in the game can participate to some extent. The solution is simply make a system like blue mage has where we can select the spells we wish to use, that solves the debuffing problem and gives us a measure of control over our automatons that will allow us to be useful during big fights.

Also there is the problem with a lack of usefulness of our melee frames. At the current time there is NO reason whatsoever to even bother skilling up these automatons because they are so horribly overlooked by the dev team that their damage output and tanking ability are so sub-par that they can't even compete with the worst tank in vanadiel or the worst melee job in vanadiel. The black mage spells given to us have been the only things we have gotten from 75~90 (also the tactical switch and cure 6) but those are simply a given and haven't required any thought, it's just a copy and paste method and it's just a blatantly pathetic effort. How about give us something, ANYTHING that can make our other automatons useful and give us more automatons (be creative like the square-enix I grew up with), there's so much that can be done to make us unique and fun and I just don't think any effort whatsoever has gone into the job in years, it's very disappointing. I am a fulltime pup and I'm just tired of my job being completely ignored while other jobs get MASSIVE bonuses and fun new things all the time.

[Zhronne]

Another large concern that many pups are having problems with is not being able to adequately control the nukes our puppets cast.
This is a problem only in abyssea and only in certain circumstances, I'd say.
Sure... it can be annoying, but no way of solving it. I think this is one of those things we'll have to learn to live with.

[Lushipur]

thing is, scanner (attach or built is) should see if a mob is immune/absorb or triggered by a spell and avoid it.

[hakrev]

Only in abyssea....that's all we have to do these days and that is the only thing for anyone 75+, i don't see other jobs struggling with the simple act of casting the right spell at the right time and being forced to sit there and do nothing because people don't want you to cast the wrong spell and ruin the yellow proc. They gave us blm spells and we should totally be allowed to use those spells how we want to.

[hakrev]

thing is, scanner (attach or built is) should see if a mob is immune/absorb or triggered by a spell and avoid it.

Yes it should, but instead it makes our auto stop casting anything alot of the time...another thing that really needs fixing.

[Drac]

As a Career PUP the only truly viable option is to make separate timers on Cures and -na spells. Their are times where silena, paralyna or stona will get shadows back up, which can be much more valuable.
PUPs also have a fair number of options for Hp and MP restoration, the spells Drain, Aspir, and Aspir II can be removed from the matons spell list with little to no repercussions.

Their are alot of other issues with matons but these are the two that everyone can agree needs to be changed

[hakrev]

Yes that will solve the whm puppet AI, but we need to think broader then that, that will do nothing to solve our Blm puppets casting the wrong spells. Scanner seeing if a spell has been triggered is a great idea and deffinately should be implemented, but having a blue mage style selecetion to make a spell list and allowing the automaton to chose from those spells would literally fix all of our mage AI problems. Blm would stop double procing yellow, whm would stop casting blindna when you're about to die etc.

[Kayn]

Dear FFXI development team,

Puppetmasters appreciate the increased attention given to our job since the beginning of 2010, after several years of feeling that PUP was a neglected job. Because we feel that the current development team is paying more attention to the players in general, and the PUP job in particular, we would like to bring to the attention of the dev team several key issues that the English-speaking PUP community has struggled with for a long time. These are not just my concerns, but an attempt to clearly voice some longstanding issues from many in the community. Your consideration of these issues would be greatly appreciated.

(1) Mage puppet AI.
Likely the most widespread complaint within the English-speaking PUP community. Despite the former development team suggesting that all was working as intended, the PUP community generally dislikes the Soulsoother head's priorities forcing a status removal spell over a cure whenever the master or puppet has a status effect (no way to force a Cure VI over Blindna when the master is at 50hp is not very helpful!). Many monsters that seem perfectly in line with what a PUP with adequate control over the automaton could solo become highly impractical, and usefulness of the automaton in parties is also compromised.

In addition, the high automaton HP/MP thresholds for Spiritreaver head choosing to cast Drain/Aspir is a problem for PUPs using that head. This becomes a very big issue when fighting targets where Aspir or Drain are ineffective - the puppet will cast Aspir and get a tiny amount of MP back, meaning that as soon as it can cast Aspir again it will do so and waste a cast. PUPs need a way to override this behavior and force the automaton to not cast Drain/Aspir (just as we have a way to avoid Absorb-INT, simply don't use a Dark Maneuver)

How about some AI modifications? Some possible suggestions:


a)Maneuvers.
Make Soulsoother head only use -na spells on the master and itself when a water maneuver is active (the same current prerequisite for the automaton to use those spells on other party members). For Spiritreaver, only allow Drain/Aspir when a dark maneuver is active (same condition as Absorb-INT).

b) Attachments.
Make an attachment modify the normal priorities. For example, with Damage Gauge equipped, Soulsoother will prioritize Cure spells above all else. Or make this an opportunity for Tactical Processor to do something useful.

c) Adjustments to default priorities.
Simply change the default priorities. Make the automaton always choose a cure above a -na spell, or adjust the threshold for casting Aspir or Drain (lower automaton MP/HP level).

d) Separate spell timers for Cure/-na.
Instead of operating on the shared spell timer for all spells, break status removal spells out on their own unique timer. This way the puppet can still cast Blindna, Paralyna, Poisona, etc., but that cast will not mean a long wait for the spell recast timer for an opportunity to cast that needed Cure.

There is a possible argument that the PUP can take steps to avoid the pitfalls of quirky automaton AI priorities. For example, to avoid the vicious cycle of automaton focusing only on status removal, the master can stay out of range of nasty enemy abilities as well as keep puppet at a distance. However, forcing the player to take these drastic actions to avoid AI priorities that seem non-sensible does seem to be an unnecessary limitation on the players.

(2) Weaponskill priority.
The system by which automaton weaponskills are triggered by a particular dominant maneuver is becoming cumbersome, and will become even more of a burden with new automaton weaponskills that PUPs hope are coming in the journey to level 99. In addition, some weaponskills simply get in the way (mage puppets with high HP, like Soulsoother which cures itself, become useless with vital light maneuvers since they will use the undesirable Magic Mortar). PUPs need to hold back and use otherwise useless dark maneuvers to trigger desired WS on Valoredge (Cannibal Blade) and Sharpshot (Armor Piercer) frames. Perhaps it is time to adjust this aspect of the job.

One suggestion is a simple menu - perhaps accessed through an NPC similar to the Rendezvous Point menu (changing Fellowship NPC job, use of area of effect WS, etc.) This NPC could allow the PUP to program the automaton to choose appropriate WS for the master's liking, or even set "trigger" maneuvers as chosen by the player for each automaton WS. This "Automaton Adjuster" NPC could even be expanded to address the spellcasting AI issues described above.

(3) Tactical Processor.
The PUP community has done testing for years and cannot figure out what this attachment does. Can the dev team explain this item, or adjust it? The community believes this item to either be not working as intended, have such an unusual use that it has not been discovered, or that the attachment is simply useless/nearly useless. Perhaps a change could be made to give this attachment more utility.

We appreciate your attention and hope to continue a more open dialogue with the dev team.

Sincerely,

The PUPs of Vana'diel

100% support as you already know.

excellent anza, way to go. hopefully we can have an official answer to this very well written letter.

[Ramenuzumaki]

I definitely agree with this post!

Ramenuzumaki of Odin!

[xbobx]

I don't think anyone mentioned the problems with Cures. Have the Whm puppet use appropriate cure. Puppet already understands threasholds and how much hp/mp extra so can we have it stop using Cure 6 when i only need 300 hp. So much wasted mp.

there must be a way this can be handled better.

[Drac]

Guys Lets please stick to the topic of the OP, We need to send a clear message to SE on the biggest issues.

Mage Frame Matons need AI Fix being the top of the list.

Lets be honest, Ashu Talif is not that hard @ lvl 90, and SE has given us Deus Ex making MP a non issue.

[Flyinghippress]

Another large concern that many pups are having problems with is not being able to adequately control the nukes our puppets cast. Lets say my party triggers yellow with blizzard V, my auto continues to cast blizzard V and thus I get yelled at by my party for something i can't really control

Just wanted to point out that T5 nukes can't proc yellow so this is a non-issue. I do however agree that we should have more control over the spells it uses. Like reprogramming it similar to how we put attachments in.

[Bhujerba]

the healing priority should be like this:
Cure 30-40% > -na > Cure 60-70%
you see, if it was only Cure > -na there is a very high chnace that the AI will get stuck on cure without casting a single -na even when you are safe, I faced this issue when i was trying to build my healing gambit in FFXII, It can be different though or not needed here, but this method of AI healing is the most logical way I can think of and work perfectly in other games.

[hakrev]

Just wanted to point out that T5 nukes can't proc yellow so this is a non-issue. I do however agree that we should have more control over the spells it uses. Like reprogramming it similar to how we put attachments in.

irregardless of the T5 not procing yellow if my auto casts T5 Blizzard after it is proc'ed with T4 blizzard or something then I essencially shorten the !! effect, resulting in getting yelled at for casting the spell. Normally I deactivate at this point, but sometimes it's impossible to cast anything else when you pop out a new puppet, so you literally have to just sit there and do nothing while every other job can do stuff.

[Kayn]

hopefully we'll get any kind of response to this thread, it feels sad that the only response of an admin on this forum was regarding someone else posting on a wrong forum D:

[Barber]

On our server (Siren) most of the puppetmaster attachments that drop from the "Ashu Talif" battlefield have not even been sold on the auction house since last August (7 months without a single sale).

The benefits from equipping these attachments are not nearly as great as upgrades other jobs have gotten that are much more easily available. There is absolutely ZERO interest in this bc fight from anyone other than puppetmasters and bringing along 2-5 people for 1-2 hours every night for a month is not going to happen. And even then with random drops there is no guarantee of completing a set.

Many emp weapons could be completed in the same amount of time so finding a group that would spend time equipping a lowly puppetmaster when they could use that same time to complete another (85) masamune.....well it just isn't going to happen. I would suggest these be made available through some other avenue.

[Zhronne]

Guys Lets please stick to the topic of the OP, We need to send a Lets be honest, Ashu Talif is not that hard @ lvl 90, and SE has given us Deus Ex making MP a non issue.
Not like it was difficult at 75. I was able to easily trio the #2 BC "Royal Painter Escort". Only the first one was moderately hard because it required specific setups.

But that's not really the issue. The real issue is finding people to do it with you, since you need a lot of pre-requisites to be able to access the BC, then you have a lot of walking, and then you have a fight which has a low chance to drop an attachment.
It's not a coincidence if these attachments are so insanely rare on most servers, "difficulty" of the BC itself is not the real problem here.

[xiozen]

3) Stout servant is an excellent idea, but at the moment its potency is a bit lackluster.

<Yes, please> I love the idea, however even adding -10% pdef equipment (stacked), with associated -pdef attachments, the automaton is taking dmg... and this is with all merits associated with def activated. Please review SE devs and the idea, which you initially made public of having the Valor Edge frame become more "Paladin" like, can you do "something" to make it a reality. I know it can be done... I believe in you! :)

[Lushipur]

the healing priority should be like this:
Cure 30-40% > -na > Cure 60-70%
you see, if it was only Cure > -na there is a very high chnace that the AI will get stuck on cure without casting a single -na even when you are safe, I faced this issue when i was trying to build my healing gambit in FFXII, It can be different though or not needed here, but this method of AI healing is the most logical way I can think of and work perfectly in other games.

I should be fixed so it doesnt always cast the high tier cure spell but the right cure for the right amount of hp.

if blm automaton can chage the nuke depending of remaining hp of the monster, i suppose whm automaton can do it too.

and please, add cure spell to valoredge...give him a new head with both tank and cure ability.

[Bhujerba]

sure the above formula have to take Cure tiers , because it can be independent from it for example:
HP 1%-30% Cure 6
HP 31%-50% Cure 5
HP 51%-70% Cure 4
( % increases with attachments)
Cure 3,2,1 should stop at certain level to be factored IMO, the reason is, it will become weak in compression to higher tier, even tho we want full MP efficiency we have to factor the time cost for these spells (is it really worth it to waste 20 secs for the pet to use Cure II just because its the right amount?), also, the fact that damage output will be higher than these low level Cures (pet start casting Cure II while getting a hit for 200-300 dmg, that Cure II was a waste of pet recast).

now integrate the above Cure priority in this formula:

Cure Low% > -na > Cure High%

the idea here is not to make -na spells the lowest priority and of course not the highest :p but somewhere in between, the reason is to prevent Cure lock up, we will be facing new issue where the pet could not use -na at all due the constant damage you may take , and there is no way to lower Cure % threshold to make pet stop curing, we can only increase it..(attachment + light maneuver), its exactly the same right now when pet lock up on -na spells each time you get inflected by status effects, the same will happen if curing was always higher than -na , they have to prevent this from happening in the first place and the above cure method will solve this issue completely, of course this may not be as huge problem as -na being prioritize (in this game status effect are mostly tied to moves which makes it harder to prevent, but damage is easier to avoid in general, so -na lock up have higher chance to occur than cure will be) but still, it will be stupid to solve one issue and create another...

AI can be tricky sometime, you have to think of all the possible issues that may happen, I don't want to wait another 5 years to fix the AI again :(.


(sorry for my bad English :p)

[xbobx]

I don't like the idea of having to trigger a na with water. what if you paralyzed, or amneisa and silenced etc. You try to do water manuever, can't, its paralized, no na spell from puppet.

or with amnesia you are stuck with any other effect on you.

I think the only real answer is seperate timers, with cure being first priority. the damage guage does say prioritize cure doesn't it? if it does, it don't work.

[Ramenuzumaki]

I really dont see the problem with it casting Cure VI all the time. If anything I've mainly used my Automaton to cure others not so much myself. However, I would rather get the most optimal cure possible. As your automaton CAN cure itself, plus be given regen via light maneuvers, and repair, PLUS Deus Ex Automata busting out a Cure VI isnt really a huge deal. Even outside of Abyssea I've never had a problem with MP, and inside without Atma Refresh I've never had a problem either. With all the blink tanks etc, you cast maybe one cure, then four enfeebs before another cure is needed by the tank. With the proper evasion set up, and ninja sub job you should be able to make use of your MP without needing too many cures.

Also as I mentioned we have tons of ways to get the Automaton's HP to 100% one of which is having it Cure itself when the master doesnt need it. Then you just deactivate, then reactivate. My WHM frame is CONSTANTLY at full HP, and with the Mana Conserver/Mana Converter/Cure VI keeping his MP up really isnt a problem. The way I see it is what if you're 1% under Cure V, and you get a Cure IV, then get hit with a TP move? You'll get cured yes, but you may just drop right back to where you were, and be stuck waiting 20-30 seconds on another cure. Personally I like the fact that it uses his biggest cure. You also have to look at the MP cost difference between the spells the BLM and WHM frames cast. BLM almost constant casts a high MP tier V nuke, whereas the WHM casts a Cure VI then low MP enfeebs. I'd say having more control over BLM spells should take priority over changing which Cure the WHM frame casts.

I do however, agree that a separate timer, or a different priority is needed for -na and cure.

It would also be greatly appreciated if the Aspir I/II and Drain were cast at a later time. I cast two Tier V dropping me to around 800-900 MP, and he starts aspiring? What about the rest of his MP pool? Then he would Aspir for 9 MP and do it again.

[xbobx]

Just because you don't have a problem with mp doesnt mean it isn't something that should be fixed. If a whm didnt have mp issues would you consider him an idiot for casting Cure 6 on you only?

[Toth]

Good stuff, good stuff. Hopefully the devs will listen :D

[Ramenuzumaki]

Just because you don't have a problem with mp doesnt mean it isn't something that should be fixed. If a whm didnt have mp issues would you consider him an idiot for casting Cure 6 on you only?

If it got the job done, no i would not. Plus unless you're spamming light maneuver you're only getting cured at yellow HP, so a cure VI really isnt that bad.

[Dfoley]

Well put together but i think you are forgeting a few things
1) Can repair oil stack to 99, please please please
2) Can we get 'attachment sets' so we can macro in "whm attachments" to cure, and then "blm attachments" to go back to nuking? /drool at the idea of being able to switch bodies on the fly.

[xiozen]

Well put together but i think you are forgeting a few things
1) Can repair oil stack to 99, please please please
2) Can we get 'attachment sets' so we can macro in "whm attachments" to cure, and then "blm attachments" to go back to nuking? /drool at the idea of being able to switch bodies on the fly.

I love the idea (#2) about attachment set... its such a pain and time consuming to have to manually switch attachments--especially when I generally use the same set-up everytime...because it works. An "attachment set", similar as stated to macro into, would be awesome and much more efficient.

As far as idea (#1)... hmm do bst pet foods stack to 99?... the concept is the same... also I don't think it would be a good idea. Considering how slowly I use my oils and also the same I would imagine would go for bst... how could anyone who synth the foods (no oils since most if not all pup's buy them from an npc, but some pup's may choose to have them synth'd)...make a profit or any type of income if the pet foods stacked to 99? I don't think there's that many active bst or pups on any server at any time, burning through them enough for it to even make sense to stack them to 99. I think having them at 12 is reasonable, it also continues to add profit to those who choose the synth route and rely on this as a source of gil income. Not to burst your suggestion, but I just don't think it would be a fair adjustment to the game populace.

[TimeMage]

Just wanting to say that I totally agree with Anza's letter. Those issues are probably the oldest and most important aspects the devs should fix from PUP, of course not counting as proper job additions, but merely bugfixed/adjustments.

[Kayn]

Just wanting to say that I totally agree with Anza's letter. Those issues are probably the oldest and most important aspects the devs should fix from PUP, of course not counting as proper job additions, but merely bugfixed/adjustments.

i completly agree, i dont want an update where they fix this things and call it a day with pup, this are blatant problemas and they are not up for debate, they need fixing one way or another, this is the official forums, so there's no excuse for SE not knowing about this anymore.

(Dev. team) (Response) (Can i have it?)

[Anza]

Also there is the problem with a lack of usefulness of our melee frames. At the current time there is NO reason whatsoever to even bother skilling up these automatons because they are so horribly overlooked by the dev team that their damage output and tanking ability are so sub-par that they can't even compete with the worst tank in vanadiel or the worst melee job in vanadiel.

Get Burattinaios and get back to me... I was EASILY soloing Om'Yovras with Valoredge last night. Sharpshot with Armor Piercer spam is a fantastic DD. If we get an even better automaton WS on VE/SS, look out.

Even without Burts though, the point of the puppet isn't really to replace a whole player. It supplements you. The master itself is on par with good DDs, and adding the puppet's contribution pushes us over the top in many situations just from an added DoT perspective, along with giving us additional tools from having a puppet.

That being said, the automaton is still pretty strong. Especially in Abyssea with Atma.



There is absolutely ZERO interest in this bc fight from anyone other than puppetmasters

People who like gil should like it, whether they're PUPs or not. Targeting the Captain is easy, and has valuable AH-able drops. I'm surprised more people don't do it simply for the money. I've had 100% of the attachments for a long time, but I still have plenty of motivation to go to Targeting the Captain so I can SELL the valuable attachments.

If you're a PUP who needs one or two of the attachments, get two friends to come and say everything but those attachments is free lot (and show them how much they can get for selling them). That's motivation. You can't be totally greedy and say all PUP attachments go to you and nothing for them, but maybe you can reserve 1 or 2 drops. Or agree to trio it and pay each of your partners some set amount if you get one of the drops you need.

Still, I do agree that availability is an issue. And S-E has changed attachments in the past to make them more widely distributed (Chocobo Hot and Cold, ZNM drops, etc.). I bought my Attuner and Target Marker for over 1mil each when they were new and rare, before they dropped like a rock from becoming more widely available.


Well put together but i think you are forgeting a few things
1) Can repair oil stack to 99, please please please
2) Can we get 'attachment sets' so we can macro in "whm attachments" to cure, and then "blm attachments" to go back to nuking? /drool at the idea of being able to switch bodies on the fly.

YES. I'm very much hoping Oils are one of the items they plan to change in connection with the noted stack size changes.

And pre-set attachment sets would be fantastic too.

[Keiyoshi]

I agree with Drac. The mages AI is a big issue. Sometimes it will use a debuff instead of curing you. I use scanner to prevent that, but then im stuck without it using debuff's. So its a win/lose scenario. It uses Cure 6 when my hp is at 80%. Its cool that it brings me to full, but still so much mp waisted. It would be nice on the other hand, if the auto could heal you without having to be engaged. I think that's the annoying part. Doing so would help add more believability that the auto is actually alive in some way but you still have complete controll. Or at least give an ability to allow it to heal outside of battle.

While we are on that subject, It should heal people with lower hp than myself unless close to dying... Thats touchy though, so I understand if thats never changed. Its cool that its looking after me, but at the same time would be helpful. Is it possible to allow it to do buffs? what good is a whm if it cant buff you against dmg as well as cure you?

Maybe allow it to cast hastga? Ok... maybe thats a bit much but, LOL that would really annoy Scholar's. Or even Curaga?

Other than new ws's and abilities.. It would be nice to be able to organize the attachments in the list. Or make attachment presets so we dont have to spend mins trying to get auto rdy in the middle of a fight. Even though I have my attachments memorized for each auto, id like to be able to just go down the list in the order I created and apply them accordingly. It would help speed up switching of the atuo's with attachments.

A more useful 2hr as well.. I can count on the same hand how many times I use my 2hr on pup. Ive been one since TOAU came out so ill say maybe three total? Two of those moments was me showing people what it does... Its cool that it raises the burden by a huge margin, but still.... Perhaps allow us to use more than three manuevers for maximum damage? Four would be nice and shorten the maneuver recast to five seconds during 2hr so we have time to put up the maneuvers again. That way we would have more of an incentive to use it.

Other than that, SE has really made up for how pup was in the beginning.It was a struggle but Most of us stuck with it. Its so impressive now that people I thought would never lvl it are leveling it. Then there are some that are envious

For instance... Ive heard people say...

"How come your auto has cure VI and two of the mages in the game dont have cure V"?
"How come your auto gets Fire/Blizz V?"
My answer was: "Regardless of what you think, its a Mage and should have the same spells as well."
"Its not fair that pup can be 2 different jobs at once and on the fly..."

***Not to everyone***
A job in this game or any game should not be Gimp based on the specs of the creators... It should only seem gimp by the personal preference of the people who play and are ignorant towards it.

-Keiyoshi

[Lushipur]

automaton cure priority are fine

master > automaton > others pt member

if u want to keep the tank cured, just dont engage the fight to avoid unnecessary hit. its the same logic with a real whm...if it have to cure too much ppl have to make choice ^^

but a way to order the automaton tu nuke or cure without engage will be nice...wyvern got that last update..so i suppose we can get it too. i hate to engage random mob when i need a cure XD
maybe this can be a targetable action, like /pet cure <st> so we can direct cure to other pt member too :P

[Ramenuzumaki]

i think attachment sets would be awesome. I do sometimes find myself starting off as a BLM then quickly having to switch to a WHM frame. As many of you do I do use the same attachments each time, because they work well, so having some sort of set would be amazing. Sure when you have enough practice you can do it kinda fast, but when you own every single attachment there are a lot of ones you need to scroll through to get tot he ones you want. Even if it wasnt macroable i would be happy. Simply have it so we manually remove the previous attachments, then click on a attachment set, which would then instantly fill your attachment window, close, activate, dont in about 10 seconds rather than 30-40. That would save a lot of damage/deaths when needing to switch from one frame to the WHM frame.

[Anza]

automaton cure priority are fine

master > automaton > others pt member

if u want to keep the tank cured, just dont engage the fight to avoid unnecessary hit. its the same logic with a real whm...if it have to cure too much ppl have to make choice ^^

I've been more on the side of "learn to deal with your limitations" than most over the years... But surely you can't agree that it makes sense that if you're soloing and you get Blinded or Silenced while at dangerously low HP, the automaton will fix that status effect instead of give you the cure you need to survive.

I agree that if your priority is curing a tank in a party, you should stand back - and fixing -na/cure priorities doesn't change that. You would still get spells targeted toward the master and automaton ahead of other party members, so you need to take extra care to not lost HP or get enfeebled on both master and puppet. Stand back with a light and water maneuver up to force the puppet to toss cures on the tank.

[Lushipur]

I've been more on the side of "learn to deal with your limitations" than most over the years... But surely you can't agree that it makes sense that if you're soloing and you get Blinded or Silenced while at dangerously low HP, the automaton will fix that status effect instead of give you the cure you need to survive.

I agree that if your priority is curing a tank in a party, you should stand back - and fixing -na/cure priorities doesn't change that. You would still get spells targeted toward the master and automaton ahead of other party members, so you need to take extra care to not lost HP or get enfeebled on both master and puppet. Stand back with a light and water maneuver up to force the puppet to toss cures on the tank.

i didnt say that the -na over cure its not a problem, i want that fixed too

but the "you vs. other pt member" is not really an issue...as you can deal with it with strategy...

[Keyln]

So its a win/lose scenario. It uses Cure 6 when my hp is at 80%. Its cool that it brings me to full, but still so much mp waisted.

Why is MP for automatons an issue? With the right attachments, they have near endless amounts of MP that they can waste.

[xbobx]

That is not the point that mp isn't an issue, it is still stupid to have that limitation there. You shouldn't have to deactivate activate to restore your mp after a couple cures.

Who says one day they won't take DAD away. It could happen

[Ramenuzumaki]

i call it Adda haha Activate Deploy Deactivate Activate :P

As for the priority for spells I think the reason it's like that is because if the master dies, so does the automaton. if the master is fine, but the automaton is dying it cant cure the pt if its dead, so thats why it does itself second, then the pts get their dues. like most people have said if yer curing your pt just stand back. I normally stand 16-17 yalms away from the mob, trying to keep my automaton in front of me. if hes behind me he's normally further tha 18 yalms away and starts running to the mob causing unnecessary damage to itself. Some sort of stay command would be kewl.

[Krystal]

this may have already been covered....but i will state my peace anyways. the "Tactical Processor" actually is more useful than anyone knows. I myself have done numerous amounts of tests with an without it. and i have noticed an tremendious change in the automation's AI when using it and not. a big example of this being it's ability to determine a proper action more quickly. without the attachment equipped my automation would not cure me nearly as quickly when i really needed it when using the soulsoother head or would often times cast an enfeeble on the mob instead. i have also noticed a universal 30seconds to 1min drop recast timer on all attachments and a 5-10 second drop on spell recast timers when using mage frames. my automation also seems to be more intelligent when using a weaponskill. instead of firing off no sooner it has 100%TP it will wait till it has at least 150% most of the time to use a weaponskill. i have not had a chance to test the blm head as of yet. but all these tests i did above were with and without the "Tactical Processor" equipped to see the difference in the ranged,tank, and whm frames. the only reason i have no undated wiki with this is becuase i fear without proof they would just edit my post out and state it can't be verified so it's not substantial enough for the wiki page. i may update wiki however anyways with this...to see if it does go unchanged.

[Sp1cyryan]

Personally I am split. In abyssea Cure VI from the puppet is fine, needed, and manageable. However if I am not in abyssea I hate it casting cure VI as it is a waste of MP and less MP efficient than cure V

[Kayn]

this may have already been covered....but i will state my peace anyways. the "Tactical Processor" actually is more useful than anyone knows. I myself have done numerous amounts of tests with an without it. and i have noticed an tremendious change in the automation's AI when using it and not. a big example of this being it's ability to determine a proper action more quickly. without the attachment equipped my automation would not cure me nearly as quickly when i really needed it when using the soulsoother head or would often times cast an enfeeble on the mob instead. i have also noticed a universal 30seconds to 1min drop recast timer on all attachments and a 5-10 second drop on spell recast timers when using mage frames. my automation also seems to be more intelligent when using a weaponskill. instead of firing off no sooner it has 100%TP it will wait till it has at least 150% most of the time to use a weaponskill. i have not had a chance to test the blm head as of yet. but all these tests i did above were with and without the "Tactical Processor" equipped to see the difference in the ranged,tank, and whm frames. the only reason i have no undated wiki with this is becuase i fear without proof they would just edit my post out and state it can't be verified so it's not substantial enough for the wiki page. i may update wiki however anyways with this...to see if it does go unchanged.

ok... i dont know if you are telling the truth or just eyeballing everything and thinking you see a change, why dont you instead of coming here and telling everyone you know what Tactical processor does, go and actually test it, if you say you see a gloval recast reduction on many attachments, that is hell easy to test. just go do it, and if only one of those tests comes as being actually true, then you can come and post it here, and we all here will help test everything else, rigth now your post is just gonna be archived on the "hey guaissss i knowz what Tactical Pro does!!!111oneone!1!" category, sorry :/.

[Krystal]

ok... i dont know if you are telling the truth or just eyeballing everything and thinking you see a change, why dont you instead of coming here and telling everyone you know what Tactical processor does, go and actually test it, if you say you see a gloval recast reduction on many attachments, that is hell easy to test. just go do it, and if only one of those tests comes as being actually true, then you can come and post it here, and we all here will help test everything else, rigth now your post is just gonna be archived on the "hey guaissss i knowz what Tactical Pro does!!!111oneone!1!" category, sorry :/.

i DID test it...i wouldn't be making a post here if i didn't...geez..you honestly think i would go through the trouble of making a post based on what i found out on my own just for my post count? and if you honestly think that's the case then wow....just *** wow...but anyways. every time i go out on my pup job i test it when i go up against mobs. all of my testing with it so far has shown me what i posted above. beyond actually recording it which i don't think would help in the least...there not much more i can do to prove my tests and their results. if you want to argue what i found then please go out and test what i have said above yourself. i don't know about you but i want the mystery behind the "Tactical Processor" solved! and multiple opinions on this based on people's testing of the attachment would be best to unravel this attachment's mysterious nature. but no one wants to test it...at least not properly. time your attachment timers as i did and pay attention to your automation and it's actions during battle with and without the processor on. test all aspects as i have been. it's not as easy as you think. judging by what i have figured out so far the "Tactical processor" is an attachment that can't be tested easily due to the benefits if gives can not be seen...at least not directly that anyone not paying attention and timing every aspect separately would notice.

[TimeMage]

i have also noticed a universal 30seconds to 1min drop recast timer on all attachments and a 5-10 second drop on spell recast timers when using mage frames.

What do you exactly mean by this? Specifically, the "30 seconds to 1 min drop" on non-mage attachments. does it refer to abilities like flash from flashbulb, or maybe it does refer to spells from Harlequin, for example?

I'm going to test this in order to see if you're correct (which would be awesome) or wrong, but I need more details and if possible specific setups in which you know it works, so that the comparison is effective.

[Ramenuzumaki]

Personally I am split. In abyssea Cure VI from the puppet is fine, needed, and manageable. However if I am not in abyssea I hate it casting cure VI as it is a waste of MP and less MP efficient than cure V

i honestly dont see a problem with it casting Cure VI I've never had a problem with MP. I dont see why people are complaining.

[xbobx]

Again JUST BECAUSE MP ISNT AN ISSUE DOESN'T MEAN IT IS STUPID FOR IT TO CAST CURE 6 IF YOU NEED ONLY 300 HP.

How can you not see how stupid it is. What if they take away DAD. You will have a mp issue outside abyessa, anyone without MM will have a problem in abyessa.

I guarantee you would start complaining about it being fixed then. So why not just fix it now. It is an A.I. issue.

[Krystal]

What do you exactly mean by this? Specifically, the "30 seconds to 1 min drop" on non-mage attachments. does it refer to abilities like flash from flashbulb, or maybe it does refer to spells from Harlequin, for example?

I'm going to test this in order to see if you're correct (which would be awesome) or wrong, but I need more details and if possible specific setups in which you know it works, so that the comparison is effective.

well usually when i tested out the "Tactical Processor" i left most non-vital attachments off unless i was testing that attachment's recast timer directly. For example when testing the "Shock Absorber" attachment it would often activate it roughly 30 seconds sooner than it would normally. while this doesn't seem to be a big thing it ts still an effect of the Tactical Processor. I've also seen my automation use it's "eraser" attachment literally less than 15 seconds later after it activated the first time. in other words it used it no sooner i activated the light maneuver after the 10 second recast timer was up for activating a maneuver.(this has only happened a few times mind you and not every time) because of my testing each individual attachment it makes me wonder if it's a universal recast lower or just on a single attachment when activated. perhaps the tactical processor itself has a recast timer in which it will lower the recast time of an attachment? i can't properly test all attachments at once due to the fact they each have their own recast timers and it would be nearly impossible to keep an eye on them all in the middle of combat. so basically there was no "set up" as i have only tested individual attachments up till now. and as for spell casting i left all other attachments off except the processor for that testing. same goes for when i tested how effectively it used it's TP

[TimeMage]

Thanks, as soon as servers are up I'll test Shock Absorber recast timers and spell recast timers, using only TP and SA in the first case and just TP in the second.

[Superchicken]

Another large concern that many pups are having problems with is not being able to adequately control the nukes our puppets cast. Lets say my party triggers yellow with blizzard V, my auto continues to cast blizzard V and thus I get yelled at by my party for something i can't really control except to deactivate my auto altogether and just sit there and do nothing. Why should we be stuck standing there during a big boss fight doing nothing while every other job in the game can participate to some extent. The solution is simply make a system like blue mage has where we can select the spells we wish to use, that solves the debuffing problem and gives us a measure of control over our automatons that will allow us to be useful during big fights.

Also there is the problem with a lack of usefulness of our melee frames. At the current time there is NO reason whatsoever to even bother skilling up these automatons because they are so horribly overlooked by the dev team that their damage output and tanking ability are so sub-par that they can't even compete with the worst tank in vanadiel or the worst melee job in vanadiel. The black mage spells given to us have been the only things we have gotten from 75~90 (also the tactical switch and cure 6) but those are simply a given and haven't required any thought, it's just a copy and paste method and it's just a blatantly pathetic effort. How about give us something, ANYTHING that can make our other automatons useful and give us more automatons (be creative like the square-enix I grew up with), there's so much that can be done to make us unique and fun and I just don't think any effort whatsoever has gone into the job in years, it's very disappointing. I am a fulltime pup and I'm just tired of my job being completely ignored while other jobs get MASSIVE bonuses and fun new things all the time.

good thing blizzard V is not a yellow trigger! But yes i see your point and yes it could be an issue as it could come to a point where say Blizzard IV or thunder IV was the trigger and you could get to the point where you automaton cast one of these or any tier IV trigger spell.

[Niyariko]

I've posted this on other forum before long ago, I hope to see more feed back on this idea...
May I suggest a Gambit system (attachment?) for us to customize auto's AI? just like how we can customize and prioritize action / spells of our members in FF12 HTTP://img223.imageshack.us/img223/3894/gambit8ey.jpg

Once this attachment is equipped an additional window opens in the equipment menu with 3 rolls and 3 columns with preset list of (subject)(Condition)(action) too choose from.. and will perform in order if situation is meet as listed whenever action timer is up.

-subject list (allied/enemy):
.Master
.Automaton
.Party member1 (p1)
.party memeber2 (p2)
..
...
.Party member hate major
.Alliance member hate major
..
.<bt>

-condition list (current situation):
HP<10%
HP<20%
HP<30%
..
.bad status
...
Magical type
Physical type
...
Impossible to gage
Too Weak
.. etc

-Action (what to perform)
Cure
CureII
CureV
...
Status cure
move back
move towards
..
support magic
offensive magic
..
.

an example would be...

| (Member hate major) | (HP<40%) | (Cure V) |
| (bt) | (Magic type) | (move back) |
| (bt) | (HP < 20%) |(support magic)|

[Krystal]

I've posted this on other forum before long ago, I hope to see more feed back on this idea...
May I suggest a Gambit system (attachment?) for us to customize auto's AI? just like how we can customize and prioritize action / spells of our members in FF12 HTTP://img223.imageshack.us/img223/3894/gambit8ey.jpg

Once this attachment is equipped an additional window opens in the equipment menu with 3 rolls and 3 columns with preset list of (subject)(Condition)(action) too choose from.. and will perform in order if situation is meet as listed whenever action timer is up.

-subject list (allied/enemy):
.Master
.Automaton
.Party member1 (p1)
.party memeber2 (p2)
..
...
.Party member hate major
.Alliance member hate major
..
.<bt>

-condition list (current situation):
HP<10%
HP<20%
HP<30%
..
.bad status
...
Magical type
Physical type
...
Impossible to gage
Too Weak
.. etc

-Action (what to perform)
Cure
CureII
CureV
...
Status cure
move back
move towards
..
support magic
offensive magic
..
.

an example would be...

| (Member hate major) | (HP<40%) | (Cure V) |
| (bt) | (Magic type) | (move back) |
| (bt) | (HP < 20%) |(support magic)|

you got this idea from FFXII's gambit system...didn't ya?

[Kayn]

i DID test it...i wouldn't be making a post here if i didn't...geez..you honestly think i would go through the trouble of making a post based on what i found out on my own just for my post count? and if you honestly think that's the case then wow....just *** wow...but anyways. every time i go out on my pup job i test it when i go up against mobs. all of my testing with it so far has shown me what i posted above. beyond actually recording it which i don't think would help in the least...there not much more i can do to prove my tests and their results. if you want to argue what i found then please go out and test what i have said above yourself. i don't know about you but i want the mystery behind the "Tactical Processor" solved! and multiple opinions on this based on people's testing of the attachment would be best to unravel this attachment's mysterious nature. but no one wants to test it...at least not properly. time your attachment timers as i did and pay attention to your automation and it's actions during battle with and without the processor on. test all aspects as i have been. it's not as easy as you think. judging by what i have figured out so far the "Tactical processor" is an attachment that can't be tested easily due to the benefits if gives can not be seen...at least not directly that anyone not paying attention and timing every aspect separately would notice.

Ok, sorry but those recordings you are talking about that you didn't bother with ARE the proof all of us want. until you, the person who is claiming is correct, provide us with proof of it, its mere speculation. im sorry but thats how the world works, im not making ANY claims myself, thats why "I" dont have to go test anything for you, as you are suggesting, please... if i go saying that the world is flat and "squared" and I have nothing to prove it and start saying "well you should go do all the tests yourself so you can see im right", dont you think people will doubt me?
We had threads like this all over the place on allakhazam. it is not new. brainstorming about what tactical processor does is something we used to do years ago over there.

im sorry but until you come up with actual facts. dont go saying your word means anything over the interwebs.

and sincerely i dont have anything against you, really i offer an apology if i said something out of place. but im guessing you can undearsteand where im coming from?

this dead horse it's already decomposing.

[Lushipur]

Thanks, as soon as servers are up I'll test Shock Absorber recast timers and spell recast timers, using only TP and SA in the first case and just TP in the second.

long time ago, but really really a long time, i tryed TP with every single attach that have an inner timer like flash or stoneskin. i never seen a change in the timer. BUT. it was a long time ago. i never tested it after all the numerous patch, cause in the notes it was never mentioned a change to TP.

[Awezomeos]

About the Tactical Processor.
Im 100% sure it does what it says on it.
Decreases decision-making time, but increases the tendency to Overload
That also equals my experience.
Example Eraser: If eraser is attached and a light maneuver is up it will be used immediatly after a negative spell is cast up on you. without TacticalProcessor it may take a few secs.
Example WS: Automaton use Weaponskill as soon as it has =>100 TP
Shielbash : TacticalProcessor is Very noticeable with it. With T.P. Shieldbash catch enemy actions better even if they only have short readying phase. Without even something long casting as Bomb toss may not be chatched due to the utomatons decision making time is to long.
Also it works the same way with most other attachments.

[Krystal]

Ok, sorry but those recordings you are talking about that you didn't bother with ARE the proof all of us want. until you, the person who is claiming is correct, provide us with proof of it, its mere speculation. im sorry but thats how the world works, im not making ANY claims myself, thats why "I" dont have to go test anything for you, as you are suggesting, please... if i go saying that the world is flat and "squared" and I have nothing to prove it and start saying "well you should go do all the tests yourself so you can see im right", dont you think people will doubt me?
We had threads like this all over the place on allakhazam. it is not new. brainstorming about what tactical processor does is something we used to do years ago over there.

im sorry but until you come up with actual facts. dont go saying your word means anything over the interwebs.

and sincerely i dont have anything against you, really i offer an apology if i said something out of place. but im guessing you can undearsteand where im coming from?

this dead horse it's already decomposing.

possibly but it's nerve racking everytime i look at wiki see nothing on the processor that's useful..>.<

[Krystal]

About the Tactical Processor.
Im 100% sure it does what it says on it.
Decreases decision-making time, but increases the tendency to Overload
That also equals my experience.
Example Eraser: If eraser is attached and a light maneuver is up it will be used immediatly after a negative spell is cast up on you. without TacticalProcessor it may take a few secs.
Example WS: Automaton use Weaponskill as soon as it has =>100 TP
Shielbash : TacticalProcessor is Very noticeable with it. With T.P. Shieldbash catch enemy actions better even if they only have short readying phase. Without even something long casting as Bomb toss may not be chatched due to the utomatons decision making time is to long.
Also it works the same way with most other attachments.

maybe i'm confusing recast timers with the time it takes to make an action? oi-vey..this attachment is annoying to figure out...

[Ramenuzumaki]

Again JUST BECAUSE MP ISNT AN ISSUE DOESN'T MEAN IT IS STUPID FOR IT TO CAST CURE 6 IF YOU NEED ONLY 300 HP.

How can you not see how stupid it is. What if they take away DAD. You will have a mp issue outside abyessa, anyone without MM will have a problem in abyessa.

I guarantee you would start complaining about it being fixed then. So why not just fix it now. It is an A.I. issue.

well considering we still have ADDA i'm not worried. the thing is there is no issue with MP so I dont see the problem. who cares if it doesnt cast a different cure, since its not impeding on our MP pool, or causing and stress. I normally only have one light maneuver up so I normally get cured when I have heck of a lot less than 300HP. Maybe if you used less Light maneuvers your automaton would cure later thus making it not "stupid" to cast a cure VI. I seriously don't see a problem with it. Especially since we do have ADDA. You dont need the "What if?" scenario since it's not going to happen. If they did that they would have to take away the DRG's dismiss functionality, then the DRG would complain, and then where would they be? I think the reason why the BLM changes what tier it casts is because it normally casts Tier V which cost a huge amount of MP thus needing to conserve the MP at lower mob HP; whereas the WHM casts one cure every so many cats, then casts low MP debuffs. there are MUCH more pressing matters to be concerned about other than the fact that our Automaton is casting a Cure VI that posses no threat to our MP pool, emnity, or anything for that matter other than the fact that it is a cure that is too large. Cry me a river, then build a bridge and get over it my friend. :3

[chubrocka]

HUMMMMMM still waiting for a response from any of the SE peeps on this one??? Oh great info and suggestions. <<<< faithful PUP player

[Miera]

well considering we still have ADDA i'm not worried. the thing is there is no issue with MP so I dont see the problem. who cares if it doesnt cast a different cure, since its not impeding on our MP pool, or causing and stress. I normally only have one light maneuver up so I normally get cured when I have heck of a lot less than 300HP. Maybe if you used less Light maneuvers your automaton would cure later thus making it not "stupid" to cast a cure VI. I seriously don't see a problem with it. Especially since we do have ADDA. You dont need the "What if?" scenario since it's not going to happen. If they did that they would have to take away the DRG's dismiss functionality, then the DRG would complain, and then where would they be? I think the reason why the BLM changes what tier it casts is because it normally casts Tier V which cost a huge amount of MP thus needing to conserve the MP at lower mob HP; whereas the WHM casts one cure every so many cats, then casts low MP debuffs. there are MUCH more pressing matters to be concerned about other than the fact that our Automaton is casting a Cure VI that posses no threat to our MP pool, emnity, or anything for that matter other than the fact that it is a cure that is too large. Cry me a river, then build a bridge and get over it my friend. :3

My, my. You know that everytime you use Deus Ex or Deactivate and Reactivate it causes is bigger Overload problem? Honestly, I hate using DAD now a days because Overload can get you killed. I think SE has a problem with us using the DAD trick that's why the Overload is there from keeping us from having a infinate MP pool. I agree with the other guy though. Just because you don't feel you have a problem with it doesn't mean others do. C'mon now.

[Lushipur]

HUMMMMMM still waiting for a response from any of the SE peeps on this one??? Oh great info and suggestions. <<<< faithful PUP player

i doubt we will see response to anything till the japanese situation will become less problematic -_-

[xSylarx]

you do know SE intention was Pup/Whm all mage gear can be worn by pup. they have supplied use with more then enough gear. equipment the atma i would use VV,SA,SD with Burattinaios ws can spam armor piercer and cannibal blade. So think its fare if we need anything it more attachment say priority curing 2 or attachment that force certain ws.

[Exzir]

Ok it is really hard to follow all that is here the first post is good there is alot going on about cure 6 and MP and tatical processor. First if you are on a non AOE mob Mp should relly never be an issue with pup. I cast cure 6 alot with Deactivate and Activate full mp pool. wish there was another job that could do it that fast. I mean I know convert but you still loose hp.... The Tattical Processor works best with the Scanner Flash Provoke and Stoneskin actions. It quickens the time for shield bash if it is up. For doing the -na if it did then Deactivate --> Activate --> Light man. Deploy. Pupetmaster is the only job i know you can Attack an NM without ever claiming it. Get 6 PUP's that know what they are doing and you can kill NM's in the Yellow.

[Kayn]

Ok it is really hard to follow all that is here the first post is good there is alot going on about cure 6 and MP and tatical processor. First if you are on a non AOE mob Mp should relly never be an issue with pup. I cast cure 6 alot with Deactivate and Activate full mp pool. wish there was another job that could do it that fast. I mean I know convert but you still loose hp.... The Tattical Processor works best with the Scanner Flash Provoke and Stoneskin actions. It quickens the time for shield bash if it is up. For doing the -na if it did then Deactivate --> Activate --> Light man. Deploy. Pupetmaster is the only job i know you can Attack an NM without ever claiming it. Get 6 PUP's that know what they are doing and you can kill NM's in the Yellow.

even tho you kind of know what you are talking about, you lost my attention at the bolded part.

[Dalcour]

When I was reading this (not all of it cause I'm lazy).. I wasn't sure if you mentioned a way for us to Modify our List of magic for our automaton's such as:
Dia II: On (O)
Bio II: Off (X)

Something similar to that would help as well, or a Gambit type system similar to that in FF12.
Mob HP>80%
Automaton casts tier 3+ elemental spells.
or
Master HP<40%
Automaton casts Cure VI,V,IV,III,II,I (Cure based on Automaton's current MP)

Also, I read something with someone saying that we should get new Automatons... I completely agree with that. We should get some based on jobs in the game like a Samurai looking automaton or something with skills similar to a Samurai, that would be pretty cool.

[Miera]

SE said the Valor Edge frame is supposed to tank like a real live PLD but I don't see him busting out any Cures, I wants meh PLD Automaton! D:

Cannibal Blade Doesn't heal him as good as a Cure would and I believe I would have to watch what Maneuvers I put up or he'd prioritize another WS rather than CB.

[KorPoni]

Looking at job roles, the only automaton type that doesn't cover a role is support automaton. We have debuffs, healing, tanking, and dd, but the closest to buffs is a good regen from time to time. That, and one similar to thf and dnc, that doesn't hit hard, but goes nuts swinging fast.

[Miera]

I was just reading the PUP threads on the Japanese section and I have to say that They were saying the same thing Exzitr was saying. Apparently it's supposed to help with the Stoneskin, Blink, Flash, Provoke, ect attachments I think it's supposed to be used faster than normal. I want to see if this is true or not.

[Jski]

I think every pup in ff11 should give this a like its not the best of things but its needed for pup and other pet jobs.

[Titain]

I'm a new PUP player myself, and so far I've noticed a few things I would like to see done.

First) faster cast times during the automatons actions, as a player doing whm u can cast and cast but the PUP can't. I think this should be Tweeked slightly to let it cast more.

Second) Buffs, where are the Protect, Shell or atleast Haste?

I do think more control over its AI would be nice. more Manevers and a new frame would also be neat.

[xbobx]

It is sad when for the most part NPC Fellows are smarter then puppets, and they need no maneuver to tell them what to do.

[Lushipur]

y start to post the job adjustment...cant wait anymore to see what we get :P

[Glamdring]

I've been farming hiltroll puppetmasters the last couple weeks. Their rdm pup uses protect, shell, refresh, dispel and a few other spells, meaning the AI to do buffs/debuffs exists. I have yet to see my pup do so. It is only recently, I was farming them about 1 month before the tsunami and it was just the at most tier 2 nukes, Dia/Bio 2. Was there an AI change for mobs recently and I just missed the notes?

Oh, and the damage gauge is just as broken as the scanner. I've played whm, rdm and brd-you do NOT poisana a player at level 50+ who only has 12 HP left if you have the MP for a cure IV, you cure to keep them alive long enough to get off your poisana. It may be AI, but why did you have to model it after Lindsey Lohan's intelligence?

[Psion]

FYI, I made a post in battle content forums that has a link to this thread and quotes the original post in it. Hopefully the mods will notice the thread better there, and maybe we can get an actual comment from them!

[Vazerus]

Read OP, skipped over all the other posts. I agree with everything that was said in that post >.>b

[Glamdring]

It is sad when for the most part NPC Fellows are smarter then puppets, and they need no maneuver to tell them what to do.

yeah, but can your NPC dance? I don't think so. Oh, and your NPC runs outta MP left and right, a well-played pup with mana converter has MP forever!

[Kayn]

I cant stress enough how we need an official answer on this topic, with the changes to puppetmaster incoming, months and months of coming frustrations can be prevented, the dev team need to know this issues, and i still have hope that we will get an official response before the update takes place.

[Bhujerba]

did they ever respond in other jobs forums? if they don't then i don't think they will start now.
tho,I'm 90% positive they read them, I mean look at the original post by Anza I don't recall so many ppl liked a topic this much from a normal user and not SE representative, and they listened to issues smaller than this, so there is still hope for PUPs.

I hope mage pets get some serious love (being another DRG/BST does not much appeal to me, but fully functional magic caster pets?...HELL YEAH! :D)

[xbobx]

Yes they have responded to other jobs, like why they can't change teh colour of wyverns. they tend to answer to fluff, I guess they are afraid to respond to the real questions that require real answers.

[Bhujerba]

Yes they have responded to other jobs, like why they can't change teh colour of wyverns. they tend to answer to fluff, I guess they are afraid to respond to the real questions that require real answers.
hmmm
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
maybe they answered because they knew the answer? from what I see most of their responds in the forum are to confirm what DEVs said in the subject and they can report it back to us, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.




5 days till update...

[xbobx]

Are you saying teh developers after this many years still don't have any idea how to fix the issue? I don't get what you are saying.

I don't see any excuse for not responding, I really don't. If it was on purpose say so, but I know it isn't because about 4 years ago they admitted it was not working as intended and would look into it during question answer period at a fan festival.

guess they forgot to look into it for 4 years, or maybe you are right, maybe they saving face because they have no clue how to fix it.

Here is a hint, the AI is not broken, the attachment that "prioritizes Cures" does not prioritize cures. The attachment has been broken since day one.

[Kayn]

Are you saying teh developers after this many years still don't have any idea how to fix the issue? I don't get what you are saying.

I don't see any excuse for not responding, I really don't. If it was on purpose say so, but I know it isn't because about 4 years ago they admitted it was not working as intended and would look into it during question answer period at a fan festival.

guess they forgot to look into it for 4 years, or maybe you are right, maybe they saving face because they have no clue how to fix it.

Here is a hint, the AI is not broken, the attachment that "prioritizes Cures" does not prioritize cures. The attachment has been broken since day one.

i don't really know whats up with the dev team, they do pretty smart stuff suddenly (Deus Ex Automata) but they can't answer simple questions to apeace the community, im not asking for emediate fixes (but at stage in the game i think we kinda diserve it honestly.) but at least recognition from them that this issues are being looked into, and probably a "migth not make it on this update but stay tunned for next one" or what ever. i dont like the whole silent treatment, it feels like old SE /shivers.

[Bhujerba]

Are you saying teh developers after this many years still don't have any idea how to fix the issue? I don't get what you are saying.

I don't see any excuse for not responding, I really don't. If it was on purpose say so, but I know it isn't because about 4 years ago they admitted it was not working as intended and would look into it during question answer period at a fan festival.

guess they forgot to look into it for 4 years, or maybe you are right, maybe they saving face because they have no clue how to fix it.

Here is a hint, the AI is not broken, the attachment that "prioritizes Cures" does not prioritize cures. The attachment has been broken since day one.
huh?
are you talking to me? O.o

I meant CM probably never asked to report back for some reason, the devs might have fixed it the coming update who f knows.




4 years ago SE didnt have devs...until 2010.

[Glamdring]

one other thing we really need, Stormwalker head. Spells die at a very low level, we get nothing past Tier 3 nukes and cure 4, why? the pup is an emulation of a rdm and rdm exists past level 68, why doesn't the pup? And give it Dispel, seriously... The only reason I use this thing post 70 is on my Emp weap trials, I need pet kills and I also need healing help, whm will waste time killing me while it cures my blindness with its stupid AI and blm can't do anything on these undead I have to kill as far as survival.

[Xanaduu]

we could always flood the pup forum w/ new threads headlined "WE WANT ANSWERS NAOW!!", might help get a response.... or would just annoy every1 >.>; either way i'll be prayin to the goddess! @.@

[Glamdring]

that's actually not a bad idea, once in awhile flaming is the only way to get an answer...

[Kayn]

i'm impartial about it. if it gets the admin attention so be it. we might as well post something REALLY stupid like, "can we has differant automation collors pl0x" and we migth get some looks, i feelt guilty for thinking that way, but no response in a topic that clearly addresses most of the horrible bugs that still hold this job from years, is to me, laughable.

[Lyrminas]

so many views and comments/concerns, so little input from the dev team. From what I gather, the devs seem to reply most to the issues that no one really cares about, like aesthetic changes. This thread encases real concerns to real problems that have plagued the job since launch yet it garners no attention. It just makes me feel underwhelmed that a forum like this exists but pressing matters aren't addressed.

I would love to be proven wrong about how I feel things are going to develop for the remainder of FFXI's lifespan.

[Kayn]

and now, they nerf burattinaios...

Great SE, just great. and im not saying this things were not broken, but what happen to fixing what ever else is broken with the job that actually BENEFITS the job.

speechless.

[Amerlyn]

I kinda like the NPC idea where u can reprogram your automaton to cast specific spells/WS. Maybe add in on this npc a way to program the way the AI reacts. The issue where -na spells greater than cure.. maybe make it where the PUP can adjust the AI to Value Cure over -na at an NPC. Or if the pup values -na over cure, they can set it back to that. Every pup plays slightly different than another, so having the ability to adjust the AI to suit those needs would be nice.

[Drac]

This thread warrants a reply from the dev team!

[xbobx]

They don't care.

[Dfoley]

look at every reply...

I am sorry but at the moment the developers dont have time/skill/ability to do that.

[Vazerus]

Or "We already did that, so look forward to it soon!"

[Drac]

The AI issues outlined in the first post need to be addressed.
I understand the dev team has many limitations they have to work with but; I don't think it's uncalled for to get a reply from them if they've looked into this issue

[Niyariko]

SE doesn't seems to care, they are working to release on their next lolMMO.

The AI has been broken since day one on pup release, if they thought this was an issue, they could have fixed it years ago, they gave us new attachments, new WS, even new head and frames without going thru the trouble to fix the AI or even say anything about it... orz

[Drac]

SE doesn't seems to care, they are working to release on their next lolMMO.

The AI has been broken since day one on pup release, if they thought this was an issue, they could have fixed it years ago, they gave us new attachments, new WS, even new head and frames without going thru the trouble to fix the AI or even say anything about it... orz

This is really the reason we can't just let the issue die off without a response. It really has been broken for too long!

[Blueyes]

Hmm. Seems this little fella got lost on page 3...

Anyway, I'll agree that improving of the automaton AI should be a high priority since I'm pretty sure the general consensus would agree that it does not function the way it should. Having split timers for "Cure" and "-na" spells is certainly my favored suggestion, but I think I would like to see it taken a step further and applied to all variants of the Stormwaker puppet. Like it was also mentioned how spells such as Drain and Aspir can be an annoyance when using Spiritreaver. What if those types of spells were also split from the usual nuking cycle? Not so much of a problem then. Full Stormwaker has the most complex variety of spell types so it could take a bit more thinking to figure out how to split that one, but as a general rule I would say that Cure and -na spells should never occupy the same space without Cure being given proper priority. (Edit: Though, looking back I remember that Stormwaker itself doesn't have -na spells anyway.)

[Dohati]

thing is, scanner (attach or built is) should see if a mob is immune/absorb or triggered by a spell and avoid it.

i'm pretty sure scanner doesn't tell the automaton when a mob will absorb a spell. i tried using blm with scanner at JoL and she healed him a lot. i had to give up and swap to rng puppet.

[Kristal]

i'm pretty sure scanner doesn't tell the automaton when a mob will absorb a spell. i tried using blm with scanner at JoL and she healed him a lot. i had to give up and swap to rng puppet.

The keyword here is should. If a mob has 50% resistance to all elements except one, and that element is absorbed instead, the maton will happily do it's best to cure the mob as best it can. Even though a 50% resisted nuke is preferable over a negative damage nuke...
I could understand if the default scanner of the automaton could not make the difference, but when you slap on a Scanner attachment, on Spiritreaver no less, it should use expected damage rather then expected resistance.

[Anza]

With the new announcements of PUP changes, it looks like it's possible the devs actually did consider the player feedback in this thread. If so, a gigantic THANK YOU for addressing these concerns.

Most of us understand implementing these changes does take time, but the important part is getting it right... and it looks like the newly announced PUP adjustments heading to the testing server do address the big issues.