Were Emps supposed to be this easy?

[Runespider]

Do you think they realised just how easy they made emps to get, and with that do you think they will be unable to upgrade them beyond 90?

When you actually bash out an Emp it's amazing just how quick and easy they are and quite how powerful they are with it. Not hard to cap one in a week and they are literally everywhere now, to the point of being common.

When you finish a relic and see how minor an upgrade they always were and for such a massive time investment it's kinda boggling how they did Emps.

Anyone else think they misjudged how easy they made them? It's hard to balance a game where they have weapons that are so powerful and so easy to get.

[Karbuncle]

I think Empyreans were suppose to be a easier-to-obtain goal as compared to Mythic/Relics. I think they were suppose to be the "Casual" Mythic/Relics.

What i don't think they knew would happen is the WS's being so powerful it completely obsoletes relics/mythics on most jobs.

Which is why they're adjusting the power of Relic/Mythics, not adjusting how to obtain Empyreans.

[Mirage]

I think they knew how strong they were gonna be, yeah.

And I'm pretty sure relic weapons weren't a small increase in power form normal weapons, at least not when relics were introduced. The problem was however that relics for a long time put a "soft cap" on how fast and how big the "power creep" in the rest of the game could be. Until they finally realized that was a bad idea and introduced empyrean weapons anyway.

[Eeek]

I only have a WoE Empyrean, and I still don't mind that they're so 'easy' to make. These weapons still take time, effort, and friends to upgrade all the way to 90. Empyreans are accessible. They do not require a player to be filthy rich or play FFXI 80 hours a week.

I vastly prefer this way of making top-of-the-line weapons as opposed to the absolute BS that are the Relic and Mythic quests.

[Leonlionheart]

If they were to do relics and mythics justice in comparison to the difficulty of making empyreans, I would say mythic WS's should do about 6x as much as empyreans, and relics maybe 4x's. Or at least have better utility.

But I would accept mythics or relics being just a small upgrade, as long as they were the best.

Right now however nothing really seems to come close to empyreans, besides the infamous Ryunohige. Ragnarok might have a chance, but compared to Caladbolg, I doubt it.

[Eeek]

I agree, but the game's still in flux right now and will be until the cap's settled at 99. I don't mind that the balance between relics, mythics, and empyreans is a little wonky until then.

[Mirage]

If they were to do relics and mythics justice in comparison to the difficulty of making empyreans, I would say mythic WS's should do about 6x as much as empyreans, and relics maybe 4x's. Or at least have better utility.

But I would accept mythics or relics being just a small upgrade, as long as they were the best.

Right now however nothing really seems to come close to empyreans, besides the infamous Ryunohige. Ragnarok might have a chance, but compared to Caladbolg, I doubt it.

I'm of the impression that it's normal that things get progressively harder (read: time consuming) to get compared to the power of the item. That's also pretty similar to how it works in the real world, for example when buying a computer or other fancy devices. The more "cutting edge" something is, the less bang for the buck you get. In a game where you have rare/ex items, your buck is of course time invested.

I don't know about you guys, but I think it would be ridiculous if an new greataxe was implemented which was exactly twice as strong as ukonvasara in every aspect, would only take twice the time to complete.

[Kingofgeeks]

they're only easy to get if you have time to get them

[wish12oz]

Do you think they realised just how easy they made emps to get

How many empyreans do you have exactly? And what level are they?
Recently I've noticed 99% of the people who complain about how easy empyreans are, or how overpowered they are, don't have any, and I find it pretty funny. Empyreans are not all that easy to get to 90, it's perfectly fine the way it is.

We need less QQ empyreans are easy and overpowered threads, and more THANKS FOR THE AWESOME WEAPONS THAT ARE ACCESSIBLE TO EVERYONE SE threads.

[RaenRyong]

How many empyreans do you have exactly? And what level are they?
Recently I've noticed 99% of the people who complain about how easy empyreans are, or how overpowered they are, don't have any, and I find it pretty funny. Empyreans are not all that easy to get to 90, it's perfectly fine the way it is.

We need less QQ empyreans are easy and overpowered threads, and more THANKS FOR THE AWESOME WEAPONS THAT ARE ACCESSIBLE TO EVERYONE SE threads.

trust a cat to come forward with the winning argument!

This is entirely true. They're easy in so much that they're accessible but you still need organisational skills/some level of skill/etc.

Wanting only a tiny tiny fraction of players having the top gear is akin to thinking Defending Ring's droprate is reasonable, or that you should have to compete in HNM to get the best stuff. Why does it matter to you what other people have?

Empyreans are still not "common" by any stretch of the imagination.

[Tsuneo]

I'm sure after the update relic owners will feel even more slighted. We will probably be hearing "relics are too easy to get now". Regardless of what happens relic owners are gonna feel like they got the short end of the stick.

[Karbuncle]

I'm sure after the update relic owners will feel even more slighted. We will probably be hearing "relics are too easy to get now".

And i'll be using my Mandau to surf on their wave of tears :3

[Alukat]

And i'll be using my Mandau to surf on their wave of tears :3

me too ^^

rudra's storm (emp): 60% dex mod, tp multiplier 100%: 3.25, 60s weight, occ. double dmg.
mercy stroke (relic): 60% str mod, tp multiplier 100%: 3.00, 30 sec crit rate bonus.
mandalic stab (myth): 30% dex mod, tp multiplier 100%: 2.00, multiplies att by 1.66,
100%tp: acc+10, 180 sec
200%tp: acc+ & att+20,180 sec
300%tp: occ twice attacks, occ. double damage dmg, 120 sec

dmg output order (high>low): emp > relic > myth
difficulty/time to obtain (hard > easy): myth > relic > emp

usually the most difficult/time consuming weapon should have the highest dmg output.

ninja edit: but we'll se how they perform after next update, with the new crit dmg calculation.

[Karbuncle]

me too ^^

rudra's storm (emp): 60% dex mod, tp multiplier 100%: 3.25, 60s weight, occ. double dmg.
mercy stroke (relic): 60% str mod, tp multiplier 100%: 3.00, 30 sec crit rate bonus.
mandalic stab (myth): 30% dex mod, tp multiplier 100%: 2.00, multiplies att by 1.66,
100%tp: acc+10, 180 sec
200%tp: acc+ & att+20,180 sec
300%tp: occ twice attacks, occ. double damage dmg, 120 sec

dmg output order (high>low): emp > relic > myth
difficulty/time to obtain (hard > easy): myth > relic > emp

usually the most difficult/time consuming weapon should have the highest dmg output.

ninja edit: but we'll se how they perform after next update, with the new crit dmg calculation.

is that 3.0 the new ftp mod for the 90 Emps? Im pretty sure there was mention of level 90 Relic WSs getting a boost.

Wonder if they'll get another in the future :O


[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]

For a 20 min picture, that looks really awesome lol :o, I can't draw even half that good.

[wish12oz]

ninja edit: but we'll see how they perform after next update, with the new crit dmg calculation.

You mean the VIT/crit damage update that doesn't apply to players attacking mobs?

[Karbuncle]

You mean the VIT/crit damage update that doesn't apply to players attacking mobs?

^ A rep mentioned the VIT update will only effect Players, not enemies!

We're in the clear there =3

[Alukat]

You mean the VIT/crit damage update that doesn't apply to players attacking mobs?

i got it wrong? :o

@ karbuncle i used wiki at source, could be that i missed the memo with ftp mod change on 90 relic.

[hiko]

I think SE also underestimated effect of 3atmas/cruor buff/200k brews on players

[Karbuncle]

i got it wrong? :o

@ karbuncle i used wiki at source, could be that i missed the memo with ftp mod change on 90 relic.

Hmmm, I dunno if WIki is updated on that lol D:

I Know there were updates to the strength of Relic Weaponskills on a 90 Relic weapon though :O

[Byrth]

Relics have +25% damage to their WSs at 90.
Mythics have +15% damage to their WSs at 90.

Rudra's Storm looks good, but it's shitty in comparison to other Empyrean WSs and would be the lowest damage Empyrean WS if there was no SA/TA. 4.25 fTP (inc offhand) -> 7.25 fTP (inc offhand), but you can only force the first hit to crit still. This fTP level would make it better than Dancing Edge outside Abyssea, but not mind-crushingly so.

6.1875 fTP, 30% DEX, 40% CHR
vs.
7.25 fTP, 60% DEX

SE divides dagger WSs into four categories, the first two of which are important:
1) Designed for a crit-forcing JA like SA, TA, or SF (Shark Bite, Viper Bite, Mandalic Stab, Mercy Stroke, Rudra's Storm)
2) Designed to be unstacked (Dancing Edge, Evisceration)
3) Magic WSs, perhaps a nod to Red mage and Bard (Energy Drain/Steal, Gust Slash/Cyclone/Aeolian Edge)
4) Low level WSs that are so bad people use E skills to avoid them. (Shadowstitch, Wasp Sting)

To make a WS fall into both the first and the second category, all you'd need to do is give it a respectable first-hit fTP and enough extra hits that the total WS fTP is respectable. Like adding three hits to Rudra's.

[Jalonis]

The str mod on mercy stroke pretty much kills it. Otherwise, I'd just like to note that magical WS are the ultimate for brewing.

[Olor]

I only have a WoE Empyrean, and I still don't mind that they're so 'easy' to make. These weapons still take time, effort, and friends to upgrade all the way to 90. Empyreans are accessible. They do not require a player to be filthy rich or play FFXI 80 hours a week.

I vastly prefer this way of making top-of-the-line weapons as opposed to the absolute BS that are the Relic and Mythic quests.

This so hard.

And enough with the "finished in a week" crap. Ok, so you play a lot and have a lot of friends that play alot, and you already have excellent gear and know how to do all this stuff. Yeah, then you can finish in a week.

The majority of the playerbase isn't in the same situation. I don't think anyone in my LS has an Emp weapon.

[Olor]

THANKS FOR THE AWESOME WEAPONS THAT ARE ACCESSIBLE TO EVERYONE SE threads.

And this. Thank you.

[Eeek]

How many empyreans do you have exactly? And what level are they?
Recently I've noticed 99% of the people who complain about how easy empyreans are, or how overpowered they are, don't have any, and I find it pretty funny. Empyreans are not all that easy to get to 90, it's perfectly fine the way it is.

We need less QQ empyreans are easy and overpowered threads, and more THANKS FOR THE AWESOME WEAPONS THAT ARE ACCESSIBLE TO EVERYONE SE threads.

This is so good and so right that it just has to be quoted again.

SE, you guys do a lot of dumb things that frustrate us, but the last year or so has been outstanding. The quote above, especially the bolded part, is why.

Keep being awesome.

Oh, and this thread is that much more amazing thanks to Surfing Mandau Cat. :3

[Aliekber]

This so hard.

And enough with the "finished in a week" crap. Ok, so you play a lot and have a lot of friends that play alot, and you already have excellent gear and know how to do all this stuff. Yeah, then you can finish in a week.

The majority of the playerbase isn't in the same situation. I don't think anyone in my LS has an Emp weapon.

This. I just got my 80 Kannagi yesterday--took me about a month to do it, grinding out a lot of it solo/duo. It will probably be several months until I get the 85. By the time I get the 90, I expect to have put about 8 months of effort into it, which isn't unreasonable for a weapon of its caliber.

What the complaining people aren't getting is that the linkshells that are cranking out a new 90 Emp every week are the same sort of linkshells that would use their banks to buy most of a relic from nothing to complete in a week or two (depending on Attestation, etc.) using the gil they got mercing drops. To the rest of us (i.e. people not in that kind of shell), Emps are much closer in difficulty (still not there, but a lot closer), just without the gil requirement. The requirements for Mythics were always retardedly high for what they give, which is why there are so few of them even today.

If any magian weapons need to be adjusted, it's the Fire/Light elemental line, anyway.

[Satyr]

I think relic owners just need to grow up and realize that old content is old content. If relics were intended to always be the best weapons in the game then how can the game ever progress. Making relics always be the best weapon in the game effectively puts a ceiling on how powerful any weapon that comes after it can be meaning that there is really no point to doing anything in this game outside of getting a relic if you want your character to be at its best. The only way this could work would be if they introduced new weapons and then made a way for you to upgrade your relic to be comparable ......wait a second......hmm.

You should be happy that SE has designed their game so that almost all of the content is still relevant 10 years in. Take Wow for example, people who made Sulfuras Hand of Ragnaros, Thunderfury, or Aitesh were never given a quest to be able to upgrade it. The day the new expansion came out Sulfuras, Thunderfury, Aitesh and every single inch of content from vanilla wow became completely irrelevant. Yes some people complained, but they got over it quickly because the game introduced new stuff that was better and added new legendary weapons to bash your head against for months. Do you really think wow could have done as well as it has if the best weapons in the game were still weapons that were 3 expansions old? No it would not have, and your a fool to assume that FFXI is any different. I personally would say screw this game if the best weapons in the game still came from Dynamis.

And therein lies the beauty of FFXI compared to other games. Despite the fact that it is almost 10 years old and boasts several expansions and add ons, all of the content is still somewhat relevant. Relics are a good example of this. Even though new weapons that are better than relics had to be added just to keep this game from being stagnant, SE realizes that people put a lot of money in to their relics and thus gave you a way to keep it relevant. So all in all grow up and get over it, times change and so do games, if you feel like you wasted your time getting a relic.....NEWSFLASH......Video Games are a waste of time and that is the whole point of them.

[Arcon]

Every time someone is disagreeing people call QQ. It's such an overused and (more often than not) inappropriate term. Everything that's ever been said in this discussion is an opinion. People are allowed to be mad at decisions SE makes, and personally I prefer whining and crying to just sucking it up. Also, I have no idea what QQ stands for or where it comes from. It's confusing.

On topic, I'm almost certain SE didn't anticipate the way things went with Abyssea. And if you remember, at first many people started doing WoE, because they didn't believe they'd ever get 50 Glavoid shells. It took people quite a while to catch on to how easy things work when done right (and how to do them right in the first place). I'm also pretty sure they didn't expect people to abuse brews with stopping the timer. If you still had to get a full alliance, farm a whole day for one boss KI, and then expect 5+ other people to lot (if you didn't wipe to it), then switch zones and bosses, so everyone in the alliance gets to do one of their mobs, it would take an individual months of constant Abyssea farming (every day for several hours) just to get a level 80 weapon.

I'm not saying they didn't expect it to be sped up at all, they did add Atmas after all, but I still believe they underestimated the effects those would have on the game. And this is only level 90. Sure, there'll be other trials after that to upgrade to 95 and 99, but just imagine how easy the current content will become at level 99. Getting a level 90 Empyrean Weapon will be more of a joke than it already is. Joke in this case refers to the effort put into them in relation to the reward you gain from it, not the effort in itself, because it still takes a few friends and some time farming to obtain it.

Now, whether awesome weapons that are accessible to everyone is good or bad is up for interpretation.

[Satyr]

QQ is a case of letters forming a picture. In this case "QQ" represents crying eyes, hence the term "Stop QQing about everything!" Much like "orz" represents someone down on their knees in exhaustion.

In response to the above poster, While I do agree that brews are a problem in the current state of the game, the fact of the matter is that from what I see the majority of people who have Emp Weapons did not brew their way to an emp weapon. I think I would fall over laughing if I saw someone brew Briarius to be honest. I am not saying that people haven't brewed to get upgrade items, but if you really think about it it would be much more impractical to brew the majority of your emp weapon that it would be to go out with a solid group and kill them. Think about it that's over 5 million cruor just to do the boss enough times to get 50 upgrade items and that is assuming they drop 2 every time.

And lets be perfectly honest here...outside of attestations there is ZERO challenge to building a relic. The only challenge to building a relic is finding a way to make enough gil to pay for currency out of bazaars or sponsored runs. When you really think about it...other than the attestation and quests in the final stage, you could hypothetically build your relic without ever stepping foot in Dynamis. Now this is a fairly ridiculous suggestion, however this brings up the point that relics take almost no skill to obtain and the only real determining factor as to whether you got one or not is how much gil you had.

Emp weapons on the other hand were handled perfectly IMO. It is a powerful item that literally anyone can obtain if they are willing to put in a reasonable amount of time and effort to get it. And that is what makes good game design. Because if everything in a game is so hard to get that unless you play 24/7 you can never obtain it.... people won't play. Getting cool looking and shiny stuff makes people enjoy the game more. Dare I say "WTF PWNING" stuff is fun.

So all in all I have to wonder if all of this "QQ" is just a result of people who are regretful of wasting all that time getting a relic, not because there is something better now, but because they look back and realize that even when it was the best weapon in the game ... it really was a complete waste of time to get. So lastly I have to wonder, if you had fun getting your relic then why does it matter? If it wasn't fun getting your relic...then why did you bother?

[wish12oz]

QQ had something to do with a command in an old online game, and it was how you shut down the game. So when people complained and whined you told them to QQ, so it got associated with crying and being a whiner and quiting a game. It also kinda looks like a crying face, (Q.Q) and thats what it means now, crying/complaining/that sort of thing.

[Olor]

I'm also pretty sure they didn't expect people to abuse brews with stopping the timer..


Actually a post right in here from the mods on this forum confirms that interrupting brews with chests etc is "working as intended" so "abuse" is the wrong word...

[Byrth]

The str mod on mercy stroke pretty much kills it. Otherwise, I'd just like to note that magical WS are the ultimate for brewing.

A STR mod WS in RotZ wasn't that bad (best kind of mod, actually). Heca was the top WS gear anyway.

What kills Mercy Stroke is its fTP. It has the same fTP and mod as Tachi: Kaiten, but it has 40% the weapon base damage. They made the WS with the assumption that it would always be a crit.

[Karbuncle]

A STR mod WS in RotZ wasn't that bad (best kind of mod, actually). Heca was the top WS gear anyway.

What kills Mercy Stroke is its fTP. It has the same fTP and mod as Tachi: Kaiten, but it has 40% the weapon base damage. They made the WS with the assumption that it would always be a crit.

This is what kills everything SE gives to THF, And why DNC kinda suffers because of it. (in terms of the Emp WS).

[Arcon]

Actually a post right in here from the mods on this forum confirms that interrupting brews with chests etc is "working as intended" so "abuse" is the wrong word...

Depends how you define abuse. In a colloquial sense it would mean spamming a certain game mechanic and taking advantage of it, often violating legal or logical rules. While it doesn't affect any actual rules, when an effect, that was intended for three minutes, is used for about half an hour I believe it qualifies as defying logical rules. Even more so if you use those three minutes to kill ten supposedly rare and notorious monsters.


What kills Mercy Stroke is its fTP. It has the same fTP and mod as Tachi: Kaiten, but it has 40% the weapon base damage. They made the WS with the assumption that it would always be a crit.

I didn't see Mercy Stroke used inside Abyssea much. But outside Abyssea at 75 I've seen it do up to 2.5k (unstacked) on Colibris, I don't believe I've seen it drop under 2k once. I know those aren't great examples, but seeing how DRG and SAM had trouble keeping up, I never considered it bad. Especially after the 25% buff and (way) higher base damage, I figured it would still be great.

[Vold]

Do you think they realised just how easy they made emps to get, and with that do you think they will be unable to upgrade them beyond 90?

When you actually bash out an Emp it's amazing just how quick and easy they are and quite how powerful they are with it. Not hard to cap one in a week and they are literally everywhere now, to the point of being common.

When you finish a relic and see how minor an upgrade they always were and for such a massive time investment it's kinda boggling how they did Emps.

Anyone else think they misjudged how easy they made them? It's hard to balance a game where they have weapons that are so powerful and so easy to get.


You know what... I wrote this entire essay giving you the business, but I'm just going to make this short and sweet and to the point.


Empyreans are never going to be allowed to be #1 over relics or mythics at the end of the day but they WILL be #1 for right now. They have to be because hardcore players need content to hold them over and that's exactly what Empyreans are doing for the time being - holding hardcore players over. If they had sucked none of you boys and girls would have bothered with them. It's just this simple and people need to get over it already. Do you seriously believe the developers knowing full well what people went through and are still going through to obtain a relic or mythic had the intentions of making Empyrean weapons the be all end all weapon of choice? Do you believe that they are oblivious and accidentally made them #1? Do any of you, self proclaimed "pros" of the game, elitists, experts, whatever, actually believe SE is incompetent enough to give us weapons that are easy to get AND are better than relics and mythics combined without any future plans to balance things out?


Whaaaaaaaat????


I hope relic owners like Magian trials, cause you're sure enough going to be doing a lot more of it for your weapons.

[Zumi]

The "It only takes a week" thing is pretty incorrect. If your going at it solo or duo, or even in a group of 5 or 6 with everyone doing a weapon it most certainly takes much longer then a week, talking several months here.

The only way it takes a week is if you have around 10-12 people devoted to doing your weapon only and not any others during that time frame. Then yes it can take a week. But this situation will most likely not occur, and very few people have access to that many people willing to only do their weapon for a whole week. A lot of people like soloing or duoing and it will take them much longer then 1 week.

[Runespider]

The "It only takes a week" thing is pretty incorrect. If your going at it solo or duo, or even in a group of 5 or 6 with everyone doing a weapon it most certainly takes much longer then a week, talking several months here.

I took my Ukon to 85 in just over a week with 3 people.

This wasn't a complaint about letting casuals have fun weapons, was just asking if people thought Square realised just how many people would be getting them and how so many having them would affect game balance in content they are making from now on.

[wish12oz]

I took my Ukon to 85 in just over a week with 3 people.


And now you need to spend 3 weeks on each of their weapons to get them to 85, then spend another week or so on each to get them to 90. I fail to see how this is super easy/broken/bad.

4 people, 2 months, everyone gets an awesome lvl 90 weapon.

Compared to the old dynamis for relic system where in 6 months you farm enough for maybe 1? and need 18+ people? Cool, would only take 9 years to get everyone one.

[Zumi]

I took my Ukon to 85 in just over a week with 3 people.

This wasn't a complaint about letting casuals have fun weapons, was just asking if people thought Square realised just how many people would be getting them and how so many having them would affect game balance in content they are making from now on.

Where all 3 people doing weapons? Because if they weren't then it still take longer. When someone wants to do dagger, h2h or something ones makes it take even longer.

If you have help of people not doing weapons yes you can get done fast everyone knows that.

[Runespider]

And now you need to spend 3 weeks on each of their weapons to get them to 85, then spend another week or so on each to get them to 90. I fail to see how this is super easy/broken/bad.

You don't need to get 90 at all, they are plenty strong enough at 85, 90 is just for completionism but the weapons are fine at 85.

When I finished my relic after over a year I used it for the first time and was so underwhelmed my heart sank, they were improvments but very small (from fear of them being overpowered and breaking balance) over everything else. Everyone that's obtained a relic knows this feeling. This is why Emps are so suprising, you can finish them quickly and easily and they blow away everything that came before, hard to balance a game where so many can get super weapons.

[wish12oz]

You don't need to get 90 at all, they are plenty strong enough at 85, 90 is just for completion-ism but the weapons are fine at 85.

And this is where the casuals come in. Casuals will probably never get past 85 or maybe 90, or maybe very slowly work on them for months and months once we're 99, while the hardcore people can continue to work on them up to 99 and have something superior. There's no flaws in this system I can find and I like it.

EDIT::: Ya, relics were always terrible and not worth the cost, that's why I never really bothered with one.
Thinking about making a ghorn for my mule right now though, guess it depends on what happens after the update! maybe a yagrush if mythics become possible without spamming salvage, or if salvage becomes better somehow and is worth doing - and I can enter with just myself and my mule, so I don't have to bother others for help.

[Alukat]

grind money for relics solo, grind NMs for emp weapon solo, what's the difference? both takes a lot of time. and the weapon which requires more time should be on top.

here's a little relic time calculation:
mandau (yeah like to use it because i have experience in building it)

1 byne bills * 10400 *6000 gil = 62400000gil = 62,4M gil
o.bronzepiece * 1400 * 13000gil = 18200000 = 18,2M gil
t. whiteshell * 6100 *11000gil = 67100000 = 67,1M gil
sum = 147,7M gil
now calculating with a profit of 125k gil per hour (farming/crafting, BCNMs and other high gil rewarded events excluded)
= 147700000 gil / 125000 gil/h = 1181,6 hours just for the currencys.now u still need attestion & fragment, this will add approx another 20 hours,depending on drop rate, makes 1201,6 hours = 3,29 years if u craft 24/7 for 125k profit per hour.
due to the fact that u are sometimes able to get more or less due to ah economy this will be an average (did it with cooking 100+8) and that u can't play 24/7 for 3,29 years, this is a good estimated time for a non dynamis running relic hunter.that's for stage 75
75 stage +1 dmg = 4h (~50 kill shots per hour)
75 stage +2 dmg = 4h (~50 kill shots per hour)
75 stage +3 dmg = 6h (~50 kill shots per hour)
80 stage = 6h (~50 kill shots per hour)
85 stage = 8h (~50 kill shots per hour)
90 stage = 15h (3h hours per dynamis run)

summing the relic = 1244,6 hours > 3,4 years

now twashtar:

nocuous weapon *3 = 9h (1-6h repop took the average)
black triple stars *3 = 5h (assuming 2 nights no pop)
serra * 3 = 12h (1-6h repop took the middle)
bugbear strongman *4 = 24 hours (repop time of 1-10h)
la velue * 4 = 8h (stated 1 hour no max repop time known, so gave it 2hours)
hovering hotpot *4 = 20h (average of 2-3h stated on wiki, but i gave it 5hours ;) )
yacumama *6 = 24h (gave u 4 hours per kill ;) )
feuerunke *6 = 24h (gave u another 4 hours per kill )
tammuz *8 = 32h (another 4 hours per kill )
now u are at 75 stage
level 80 stage:
glavoid = 6,8h max + 1h + 30 min(for 1 pop set, shouting, killing) = 8,3hours per kill * 34 kills (used 1,5 shells drop average per kill) = 282,2h (if u solo all the KI's)
- azde 15 min repop 33% chance for KI (15 min killtime, wiki dnc solo) = 90 min > 1,5h per ki
- alectryon forced pop 3 min ??? repop, 33% KI drop rate, 30 min killtime = 99 min > 1,65h per ki
- muscaliet forced pop 3 min ??? repop, 33% KI drop rate, 30 min killtime = 99 min > 1,65h per ki
- minhocao respawn 10-30 min (taking 20 min average), 30% KI drop rate, 20 min kill time (dnc post on wiki states 5 min)= 120 min > 2h

now lets sum it all
9+5+12+24+8+20+24+24+32+282,2 = 440,2 hours for level 80 stage (yep u are already 1 stage above mandau's level)

now stage 85:
itzpapalotl 7 hours + 1 hour + 0,5h (KI farming, shouting, kill) * 34 kills (again 1,5 per pop) = 292,4h
granite borer , forced pop , 11% KI droprate, 20 min to kill = 200 min > 3,3h (to get 1 KI)
blazing eruca , forced pop , 22% KI droprate, 20 min to kill = 100 min > 1,6h (to get 1 KI)
tunga , 15min repop, 48% KI droprate, 30 min to kill = 45min * 3 kills = 135 min > 2,2h (to get 1 KI)

now stage 90:
orthrus: 1h to kill (took whm + nin duo of wiki) + 1h for KI * = 100h
- amarok forced pop 3 min repop forced spawn, 50% KI droprate, 30 min to kill = 60 min > 1h (to get 1 KI)

now lets sum it all up :D
440,2h (stage 80) + 292,2h (stage 85) + 100h (stage 90) = 832,4 hours = 2,28 years.

now u have the proof that relic takes much more time.

(and it was nice preparation for math exam :D )

[wish12oz]

Mythics take longer then relics, maybe you forgot that in your math, but try again.

Relics are outdated and no one but people with relics care, you should feel happy SE even bothered to let you upgrade it at all. If this was any other MMO, you would of been SOL and not given anything to make relics better.

EDIT: neither relic or emp is 99 yet too, so while relics get simple kill 20 mob trials to upgrade, emps will no doubt get 'collect 75 or 100 of this new item' trials, all the way up to 99.

EDIT2:: I currently put very little effort into making gil, but I have managed to make 3-6mil per day for a while now, I'll tell you how after the update/server merge if you like, but it's not up for discussion right now until it gets taken away by the merge. How long you think it would take me to buy a relic? A month and a half of what I'm doing would net me like 200mil, is that enough? and is that faster then soloing an empyrean up to 90? I think so~

[Alukat]

Mythics take longer then relics, maybe you forgot that in your math, but try again.

Relics are outdated and no one but people with relics care, you should feel happy SE even bothered to let you upgrade it at all. If this was any other MMO, you would of been SOL and not given anything to make relics better.


well that's the usual response when peeps have no arguments left lolol

[wish12oz]

well that's the usual response when peeps have no arguments left lolol

I left you another edit, and its the usual response cause it's the correct response. People with relics complain they don't have the best when they did more work then anyone else, when in fact they did not, mythic holders did way more work. And you just made the same tired response all relic holders say, because you got nothing left and know they're wrong.

[Alukat]

I left you another edit, and its the usual response cause it's the correct response. People with relics complain they don't have the best when they did more work then anyone else, when in fact they did not, mythic holders did way more work. And you just made the same tired response all relic holders say, because you got nothing left and know they're wrong.

well idm if myths are better.
and lol @ know we are wrong.
hmm would like to see you ripping of your ass for something and SE comes and says: "screw it, we make something easier than yours" if u tell me now u won't be upset in that case, then u are just a liar.

[Eeek]

In this thread, people never grow old and die. The mightiest warships never sink. The most powerful muscle car never rusts to dust. The day never turns to night, and night never becomes day.

Time is moot.

Nothing changes.

Relics will always be the best weapon for every job in every situation always.

[wish12oz]

hmm would like to see you ripping of your ass for something and SE comes and says: "screw it, we make something easier than yours" if u tell me now u won't be upset in that case, then u are just a liar.

I would not be upset, I would just go get it.

And after I went and got it I would be happy that I was then more awesome.

[Arcon]

I left you another edit, and its the usual response cause it's the correct response. People with relics complain they don't have the best when they did more work then anyone else, when in fact they did not, mythic holders did way more work. And you just made the same tired response all relic holders say, because you got nothing left and know they're wrong.

I'm not a relic holder and never even got close to one. I don't have a mythic or empyrean either. Technically speaking, I'm as neutral as I can be. That being said, I think the most effort should be the most rewarding. Does it matter if content is old or not? To some degree, yes. I do believe there should be exceptions.

Two reasons for that, first of all, the time involved in obtaining a relic is incomparable to anything else in the game. Not everyone can make 3M a day, even now, and that doesn't even matter. What matters is that people invested years back in the day. Where do we draw the line? Some people don't draw it, they simply believe everything old is outdated. Others are the other extreme (to some extent that includes SE), who want to reuse old gear, zones and even abilities. This is simply a matter of opinion, what do people prefer? The summer before last, I decided to camp King Arthro with a friend. 8 months and two Velocious Belts later, SE announced the level increase. As soon as the update arrived, I went to a data miner page and searched the page for "Haste+7%", because I knew I'd find something. The cursor immediately jumped to the Bullwhip Belt. And sure enough, my precious belt I "wasted" 8 months on is now in storage. Good or bad? While I was certainly annoyed with the result, I accepted it. And still I believe that shouldn't be the case with relics, because the effort of obtaining them is significantly more than 8 months.

Secondly, I don't even think relics are easier. People keep going on about how you can simply buy relics, but the exact same thing applies to empyreans (and mythics, although those require most actual work out of those three). You don't have to put in any work at all for empyrean weapons if you buy your way to Lv90 (and it is a lot cheaper than relics and mythics). Even if you compare doing Dynamis vs. doing Abyssea, Dynamis still requires more people and better strategy than Abyssea to do it efficiently. So in essence, relics can either be bought, just like empyreans, only for a lot more, or they can be farmed, same as empyreans, only for a lot longer.

Objectively speaking, relics take more effort to be obtained in either case. And some people already invested a nice chunk of their life into obtaining one. Whether or not you still wanna ignore it is only your opinion, but the relic holders' concern is certainly valid.

[Olor]

I left you another edit, and its the usual response cause it's the correct response. People with relics complain they don't have the best when they did more work then anyone else, when in fact they did not, mythic holders did way more work. And you just made the same tired response all relic holders say, because you got nothing left and know they're wrong.

Yeah, really I think it is sad that relic holders think that they should have the best weapon for ALL TIME. I mean, gimme a break, games change, new gear comes out, HECK EVEN THE MAX LEVEL HAS INCREASED. Sorry but that weapon you got 5 years ago SHOULDN'T be the best. I don't care how much work you put in five years ago.

I mean do you bring back your five year old computer to the store and demand that they scale down all the computers they are selling because it was "top of the line when you bought it"? Or do you demand they upgrade your five year old junker for free?

Who cares how much time you spent on it? I had to work for like 50 hours to buy my laptop in 2006 - and now it is a piece of crap. Woop de doo. If you want whatever gear you earn to remain static in the hierarchy of things forever, you should be playing single player games.

[Karbuncle]

SE has already mentioned they're aware relics have lost their "power". They're updating it in the future to not only buff relics, but also make them easier to obtain.

While the latter won't quell the tears of the Original Relic holders, Its likely that the Empyreans will also become progressively harder to upgrade to level 95, and 99, where balance will likely be achieved in terms o difficulty to obtain.

Also, Lol@ Empyreans are fine as 85 weapons lol. Yes, They're good at 85, but my level 99 you're going to lose a lot of damage by keeping it 85. Probably 10~30 base Damage depending on the weapon itself, or more. This will really hurt h2h more than anything I'd think though.

[Alukat]

oh we start with rl, ok here another example, u worked on the relationship with your gf and after 2 year she tells you that u are "old content" and she needs to get a new one lol

[Sama]

Emp Wpn is easy to get but hard to camp because everyone is doing it so you have to fight the other 5928572938 people for Sobek especially in weekend.

[wish12oz]

Relics are by far the easiest to get,

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]

Even if you bought all 175 items for your empyrean, you would still have to be there while people farmed pops and killed the NMs, all 88 to 175 of them. And personally, I wouldn't sell empyrean items for less then 500k/each, thats 87.5m for a lvl 90, and you have at least 2 more gather trials to get it to 99, that will end up costing more then some relics.

If anything, mythics should blow the doors off everything else, empyreans should be second and relics last if you want their strength to be affected by difficulty to obtain/time put in.

[Olor]

oh we start with rl, ok here another example, u worked on the relationship with your gf and after 2 year she tells you that u are "old content" and she needs to get a new one lol

If that happens...urdoinitwrong

A relationship is nothing like a physical product (or game data). A good relationship gets better with time. A good computer gets worse with time. A good game gets dated over time. A good weapon in a fantasy game becomes replaced by a better one over time.

If you're comparing a weapon made of pixels to a relationship, well, maybe you should have spent less time on your relic and more on real life.

[Akujima]

If anything, mythics should blow the doors off everything else, empyreans should be second and relics last if you want their strength to be affected by difficulty to obtain/time put in.

Empyrean should be 3rd and you know it. You can solo Briareus and Sobek, and alot of other Empyrean NM's or wait around while people kill them and don't really want/need the item and just give it away for free.

The only reason you say otherwise, is because you don't want to put in the time or effort to achieve something actually worthwhile. And if you're response is to cheat, steal and/or BOT to get a relic/mythic, then that just shows where your head is at. Not everyone has such dishonest thoughts.

That being said. Relics in the first place were extremely overdone in order to obtain, and should have been toned down quite a bit.

[wish12oz]

or u simply use a bot to get a lot of gil to buy all emp items........


Even if you bought all 175 items for your empyrean, you would still have to be there while people farmed pops and killed the NMs, all 88 to 175 of them. And personally, I wouldn't sell empyrean items for less then 500k/each, thats 87.5m for a lvl 90, and you have at least 2 more gather trials to get it to 99, that will end up costing more then some relics.

Ya, you could do that, I went over it, but its still more of a time sink then buying a relic cause you have to be there while they kill stuff to lot the items if nothing else. Which will take longer then getting a relic.



The only reason you say otherwise, is because you don't want to put in the time or effort to achieve something actually worthwhile.

You're talking to the wrong person if you think I don't have enough gil to get a relic. In fact, I'm debating buying a g horn FOR MY MULE. lol, thats way better then a relic for your main. And I also said this earlier, why do I have to repeat myself so much?


And if you're response is to cheat, steal and/or BOT to get a relic/mythic, then that just shows where your head is at. Not everyone has such dishonest thoughts.


I said that because, as I also said,
That is how pretty much every relic on both the servers I was on were obtained.


EDIT::
I just realized all I did with this post was say some stuff I already said, you all need to learn reading comprehension, or just how to read.

[Alukat]

not everyone in the game are rmting,botting....
there are still legit players out there, i am one of them.
but screw us because some lazy ppl use bots or rmt services?

[wish12oz]

not everyone in the game are rmting,botting....
there are still legit players out there, i am one of them.
but screw us because some lazy ppl use bots or rmt services?

Well, as one of those people you should be happy there's a new set of weapons that are pretty good for the most part, that require friends and effort to obtain. And then you should go work on them and let go of the old broken relic system.

[Alukat]

Well, as one of those people you should be happy there's a new set of weapons that are pretty good for the most part, that require friends and effort to obtain. And then you should go work on them and let go of the old broken relic system.

well if my major targets wouldn't be af3+2's for my job and ebisu rod then probably would go for them ;)

[JiltedValkyrie]

I'm on my second Empyrean if I just decided to camp Fistule for two days straight. Already have half my Bukhis Wings. All it comes down to is how determined you really are. Most people don't finish their Empyreans for months. No, I didn't have mass pops for my Empyrean. Wasn't in that kind of situation. I just wanted it bad.

[Satyr]

I guess under the relic logic if the level cap was currently lv300... a lv 75 relic weapon should still be top dog right? If this absurd analogy were the case no one would give a damn about new content because dynamis would always be the only thing you would need to do to have the best weapon in the game.

The Reality...SE give relic and mythic owners a way to upgrade their weapons to be comparable to current level weapons. Most games do not do that. SE has done you a favor. Yet you still arent happy. There is more QQ over relics that are upgradeable then there ever was over legendaries in WOW even though legendaries became useless once new content came out. And really when you think about it, it isn't even the weapons themselves that you are complaining about its the WS that is attached to them. It just happens that the relic WS were designed back when SE didn't really know what they were doing with regards to stats and power creep. I bet if SE just buffed the relic WS many would stop complaining. With that said I feel as though there would be a few that would still complain because the enjoyment that they got out of their relic was the mere fact that they had something that most others didn't have and now they don't feel so special anymore.

[Wenceslao]

Im happy with my dynamis lance, lol, and i'll be happiers when i get my Gungnir, idc if its obsolete, lol, i still want it, if emps are as easy as everyone states here, well i'll be glad to know that i'll have an oportunity og owning 2 fancy weapons ^^, lets face it, we are taking our time and effort for weapons that at this time are oldfashiones, but we still want it for the love to the weapon, or nostalgia, its natural that with new content, new weapons and armors will be realised and this last can be more powerful than the old ones because of the level we are facing, still, don't lose hope, maybe some update SE eill give us the desired revamp for relics and mythics, but while this not happens, give thanks u have a really neat weapon, many players didn't got during many years, (im one of them, and i still want my Gungnir)

[Runespider]

EDIT2:: I currently put very little effort into making gil, but I have managed to make 3-6mil per day for a while now, I'll tell you how after the update/server merge if you like, but it's not up for discussion right now until it gets taken away by the merge. How long you think it would take me to buy a relic? A month and a half of what I'm doing would net me like 200mil, is that enough? and is that faster then soloing an empyrean up to 90? I think so~

You have no idea. when I started my relic I already have the majority of the gil, it still took me over a year. You can't just buy the coins from an NPC, I had to check EVERY SINGLE BAZAAR everywhere and as I said still took me that long..and this was when rolan bazaars actually existed.

[Arcon]

You have no idea. when I started my relic I already have the majority of the gil, it still took me over a year. You can't just buy the coins from an NPC, I had to check EVERY SINGLE BAZAAR everywhere and as I said still took me that long..and this was when rolan bazaars actually existed.

And it's worse now, with currency becoming scarce. Will have to see what the update brings.

And no, empyreans don't take any time to obtain, you don't even have to spend a single traverser stone. Zone in for the drop, lot, zone out, that's it. Do that a few times while they fight the boss, then go back to fishing or gardening or whatever else you do in your spare time, while they go back to farming key items.

Should those items really be 500k? Does it matter? No, it matters what price they are, and Lv80 items usually go for 200~300k, Lv90 items for 500k (don't know about other servers). And still it's not even half of some relics. Exactly the same arguments can be given for relics and empyreans, only the quantity is a lot higher for relics, in any regard.

I know three relic holders, none of which botted for any money. And in fact, RMT is probably the most inefficient way to get money in this game I know. Bot? How do you bot money? Fishbot? That's peanuts. You'd have to fish for years, constantly (not even taking fatigue into account) to get enough money for a relic. Claimbot? What are you gonna claim? Most people who get a relic have either their own linkshell for it, profiting from their members' attendance, or make money in other ways, bazaar resale, logging, HNM NM farming, selling high end drops, back when Novio Earrings, Herald's Gaiters, Black Belt items, Ridills and E.Bodies were still worth something. I don't even know anyone who bots, but it's hard to just imagine making any kind of decent money out of it.

[Alukat]

The Reality...SE give relic and mythic owners a way to upgrade their weapons to be comparable to current level weapons. Most games do not do that. SE has done you a favor. Yet you still arent happy. There is more QQ over relics that are upgradeable then there ever was over legendaries in WOW even though legendaries became useless once new content came out. And really when you think about it, it isn't even the weapons themselves that you are complaining about its the WS that is attached to them. It just happens that the relic WS were designed back when SE didn't really know what they were doing with regards to stats and power creep. I bet if SE just buffed the relic WS many would stop complaining. With that said I feel as though there would be a few that would still complain because the enjoyment that they got out of their relic was the mere fact that they had something that most others didn't have and now they don't feel so special anymore.

is this game WoW?
now with the option given to give some feedback for improvements or whatever, why shouldn't use it?
anyway given with the trial option they should be able to make relics better, what would u say if the emp weapons still would be at level 80 and if they are crap at 99?
everyone can post their opinion, this has nothing to do with QQing.

Edit: okay u would say, it doesn't matter, because u spent only a couple weeks or months to finish 80 stage and relic took years.

[Atomic_Skull]

The str mod on mercy stroke pretty much kills it. Otherwise, I'd just like to note that magical WS are the ultimate for brewing.

Actually the STR mod is what makes it good because it fits perfectly with the Hecatomb set. Heca has a lot of DEX but it has even more STR.

[Atomic_Skull]

And lets be perfectly honest here...outside of attestations there is ZERO challenge to building a relic. The only challenge to building a relic is finding a way to make enough gil to pay for currency out of bazaars or sponsored runs.

It took me 3 years, playing 6-8 hours a day, making gil every day to self fund Mandau. That isn't zero challenge, that is the most soul crushing thing I have ever undertaken, inside FFXI or outside of it. It was a challenge just to to force myself to log into the game every day and continue.

[Atomic_Skull]

SE has already mentioned they're aware relics have lost their "power". They're updating it in the future to not only buff relics, but also make them easier to obtain.

They never said they were going to make them easier to obtain they said they were going to balance the difficulty between obtaining relics and mythics.

Also I will laugh my ass off if the the 95 and 99 Empyreans use dynamis currency to upgrade. And I can totally see SE "balancing" the difficulty of Empyreans and Relics that way.

[Alukat]

They never said they were going to make them easier to obtain they said they were going to balance the difficulty between obtaining relics and mythics.

Also I will laugh my ass off if the the 95 and 99 Empyreans use dynamis currency to upgrade. And I can totally see SE "balancing" the difficulty of Empyreans and Relics that way.

wuhahaha awesome.
or they turn the 1-2 100% drop rate into a 1 drop 5-10% droprate

[Atomic_Skull]

wuhahaha awesome.
or they turn the 1-2 100% drop rate into a 1 drop 5-10% droprate

Would be funny if...

Empyrean 95 and 99 upgrades require you to go give Switchstix 7000 and 10,000 currency. ("That weapon looks a little banged up pal, but I know somebody that could fix it right up. It won't be cheap though")

Relic 95 and 99 upgrades require you to collect 75 Angra Mainyu wings and 100 Dynamis Lord Fragments.

And in the end they end up exactly equal in both power and effort to upgrade.

[Alukat]

of course the 75 Angra mainyu wings & 100 Dynamis lord have to be a 100% for 1 drop and with a chance for 2nd drop ^^
to make them equal ^^

[Karbuncle]

They never said they were going to make them easier to obtain they said they were going to balance the difficulty between obtaining relics and mythics.

Also I will laugh my ass off if the the 95 and 99 Empyreans use dynamis currency to upgrade. And I can totally see SE "balancing" the difficulty of Empyreans and Relics that way.

The context of the words where they mention "Balancing" tells me they're making relics easier. The fact they're adjusting old Content like Dynamis to be accessible once per day, and to anyone, as well as planned adjustments to Salvage in the future, Tells me their goal is to make Relics/Mythics easier to get, not empyreans harder.

Context is everything, and from the way things are going my guess is simpler. You're usually pretty smart, but it seems to me like you're letting your anger over your relics becoming less than useful cloud your better judgment. Because anyone can see by the upcoming updates, and their wordings, their plans are to make Relics/Mythics easier to obtain.

They may do both (Make Empyreans harder to upgrade to 95-99) but i think the will make Relics, at least, slightly easier to come by. not a lot i suspect, as their adjustments to currency will probably suck. But at the same time who knows, I know i'll be getting on my THF and checking out Sandy to see how everything is lined up.

[Byrth]

The magian trials for Empyreans have been harder than the Magian trials for Relics. Apart from making relics easier to get (which they've implied they're doing by increasing currency in circulation, reducing Dynamis entrance time, etc.), Relics are probably going to enjoy an extension of their current joke trials on the way to 99. The difficulty of getting a relic is essentially going to become the difficulty of getting the currency, which could change dramatically with this coming update.

Empyreans, on the other hand, seem likely to keep getting trials in line with their current ones, which makes them progressively harder by comparison.

[Dart]

trust a cat to come forward with the winning argument!

This is entirely true. They're easy in so much that they're accessible but you still need organisational skills/some level of skill/etc.

Wanting only a tiny tiny fraction of players having the top gear is akin to thinking Defending Ring's droprate is reasonable, or that you should have to compete in HNM to get the best stuff. Why does it matter to you what other people have?

Empyreans are still not "common" by any stretch of the imagination.

I've completed two in 3 1/2 weeks lol. They're a joke. Raennnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn

I'm on the fence about relics. I put in my time and got my apoc. Was a ton of work and would not have been possible without a small legion of friends. I do kinda wish they were the best, but I doubt SE will adjust them that much. Guess I"ll had to find solace in other ways. /goes to play with ukon & caladbolg.

[RaenRyong]

I've completed two in 3 1/2 weeks lol. They're a joke. Raennnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn

I'm on the fence about relics. I put in my time and got my apoc.

Exactly, you're the kind of player who can achieve these empyreans fairly quickly. For most people, it takes a lot of time and commitment and the majority will never get one. It took me about 2-3 weeks to finish my Almace90 which isn't particularly fast but I acknowledge was still more hardcore than a lot of players could do (cost me upwards of 4m doing the Apademak stage, had to pay loads of people for Briareus to speed it up - and I had a fairly well geared Pitchfork NIN to do the red procs with, as well as a lot of friends who helped - not everyone will have these resources, or your resources, etc).

[Byrth]

Assuming you can farm 200 currency per hour (last Dyna-Bastok net me 650), relic weapons take about 15000 currency. 75 hours of Dynamis per relic weapon, or 25 runs.

If you sleep 8 hours a night and have a hardcore group of friends, you could complete Relic weapons in a week too if it wasn't for the entrance restrictions. It's a similar amount of work, you just can't blitz it like you can with Empyreans.

[Anewie]

Empyreans being easy is a good thing I think. A better thread title would have been "are relic weapons supposed to be this weak?"

[Dallas]

The road for emp weapons is not complete. We're on Stage 3. How hard is stage 3 of relic? Yes, Stage 3 emp is much better than stage 3 relic, but we would have to wait years for the final stage if SE held it from us.

[Alukat]

Assuming you can farm 200 currency per hour (last Dyna-Bastok net me 650), relic weapons take about 15000 currency. 75 hours of Dynamis per relic weapon, or 25 runs.

If you sleep 8 hours a night and have a hardcore group of friends, you could complete Relic weapons in a week too if it wasn't for the entrance restrictions. It's a similar amount of work, you just can't blitz it like you can with Empyreans.

let me guess, 4 100's + 250 1's currencys? 4 100's is pretty lucky though.

[Satyr]

It took me 3 years, playing 6-8 hours a day, making gil every day to self fund Mandau. That isn't zero challenge, that is the most soul crushing thing I have ever undertaken, inside FFXI or outside of it. It was a challenge just to to force myself to log into the game every day and continue.

Sounds like getting relic was a lot of fun....why did you even bother if it was soul crushing. Secondly your essentially saying that the only difficult thing about making a relic is trying to justify in your head the fact that you are logging in to a video game to not have fun .... why even play? You choose to buy in to quite possibly the worst thing to ever be put in to an MMO. Well, SE finally learned how bad their old design philosophies were (hint: relics) and made something that the majority of their player base can enjoy.

So now, because some of you choose to have zero fun getting a weapon that you now feel you wasted your time making (actually as an above poster mentioned, some of you regretted it the first time you even equipped it), those of us who are having fun making our emp weapons are unworthy of the weapons we now wield? No...times change.

The analogy that someone made earlier about buying a new computer is perfect. Why should I expect my 5 year old computer to always be the best? I don't. I go out and upgrade my old computer to be better (hmm sounds like relic and mythic trials) or I just go buy a new one. Should I be pissed off that the computer I got 5 years ago cost me 1500 bucks and that now computers that are 10x better than my old one cost about 700 bucks? No... I am happy cause now I can get something that is new and bad ass for half the price that I previously paid.

...and by the way if someone says "omg you can't compare RL to FFXI"... your right, I can't, because I sure as hell worked a lot harder at my job to pay for a new computer than anyone ever did to get some pixels on a computer screen.

[Yinnyth]

The analogy that someone made earlier about buying a new computer is perfect. Why should I expect my 5 year old computer to always be the best? I don't. I go out and upgrade my old computer to be better (hmm sounds like relic and mythic trials) or I just go buy a new one. Should I be pissed off that the computer I got 5 years ago cost me 1500 bucks and that now computers that are 10x better than my old one cost about 700 bucks? No... I am happy cause now I can get something that is new and bad ass for half the price that I previously paid.

Moore's Law. Wiki it if you've never heard of it. As computers age, they have definate and obvious speeds at which they become obsolete. There is no such law related to weapons in FFXI because the rate at which weapons become obsolete are completely up to the fickle minds of developers which no one can read.

Aside from the fact that there is no Moore's Law for weapons in FFXI, the cost also does not degrade at the same rate. If a newer, better computer becomes available in real life, the cost of the older computers instantly decrease. Relics have decreased in cost once, and that was before mythics had been released. This latest update promises make it take more time overall for one person to finish a relic weapon if linkshell runs are their only source of currency. So not only is the computer obsolete, but it's actually increasing in price. Just like RL, eh?

Overall my feeling is that relics, mythics, and empyreans should all be re-examined. Not just the 3 quests with one another, but all empyreans should be roughly the same difficulty to obtain (some are several times harder to complete than others), and all relics, mythics, and empyreans should be roughly equal in terms of utility (claustrum, I'm looking at you).

[Eeek]

Overall my feeling is that relics, mythics, and empyreans should all be re-examined. Not just the 3 quests with one another, but all empyreans should be roughly the same difficulty to obtain (some are several times harder to complete than others), and all relics, mythics, and empyreans should be roughly equal in terms of utility (claustrum, I'm looking at you).

They're not now, nor have they ever been, equal. Some relics have always been significantly more expensive than other relics. Some relics have always been significantly more useful than others. The same can be said for mythic weapons (with the exception that they're all grossly expensive due to the limited availability of Alexandrites).

Some Empyreans are just easier to complete than others. That's perfectly normal as not every weapon can follow the easiest NM/VNM/Empyrean item path - FFXI would be a complete mess if every weapon followed the easiest path. It's also normal that some of them are simply better weapons than others.

Just like Life, FFXI will never be inherently fair.

[Olor]

This latest update promises make it take more time overall for one person to finish a relic weapon if linkshell runs are their only source of currency. So not only is the computer obsolete, but it's actually increasing in price. Just like RL, eh?

I don't recall a promise to make relics take longer... I recall a promise to not have to pay for hourglasses every time and to be able to go and farm currency every day.

Also even if they lower the drop rate for currency - if more people are doing Dyna - there will be more on the market. The days of a few linkshells holding most of the ancient currency in the game are probably done with. I think it is too early to complain that the changes to dyna will make relics harder to complete.

I, for one, suspect it is just the opposite.

[Byrth]

let me guess, 4 100's + 250 1's currencys? 4 100's is pretty lucky though.

3 100s and a full clear with 9, I've heard of people doing it with less.

[Yinnyth]

Just like Life, FFXI will never be inherently fair.

This is no excuse not to strive for fairness. We also will all ultimately die someday, why even struggle?


Also even if they lower the drop rate for currency - if more people are doing Dyna - there will be more on the market. The days of a few linkshells holding most of the ancient currency in the game are probably done with. I think it is too early to complain that the changes to dyna will make relics harder to complete.

This was debated fairly heavily. For some background, my Dynamis LS doesn't buy outside currency, and we don't sell our excess currency. Any currency leftover from one sponsor is saved for the next. Under this system, they have mentioned decreasing the drop rate of currency per mob, which will in fact make our sponsors take longer to finish. More individuals will be capable of grinding their way towards a relic with the changes, but seeing as how empies are easier and generally stronger, I don't really foresee a tidal wave of people rushing to finish a relic.

As for the cost of currency, think back to when glass costs were halved. The price of currency on the market actually increased even though the cost of obtaining it decreased. Most endgame players already have the majority of the AF2 they need, so the only draw to Dynamis will be for the currency. Most people who do Dynamis for the currency are doing it so they can finish a relic, not so they can sell it. After all, there are better sources of gil than Dynamis. The cost of currency isn't high because a few linkshells hold a monopoly on it. It's high because the people who get currency and are willing to sell it are few and far between, which I doubt this update will change.

The majority of currency being sold will probably be people who try to finish a relic, decide it's a lot harder than they expected and give up. Granted, it's impossible to tell until the changes actually hit.

[Karbuncle]

This is no excuse not to strive for fairness. We also will all ultimately die someday, why even struggle?





Because life is a journey, not a destination :)

[blowfin]

Under this system, they have mentioned decreasing the drop rate of currency per mob, which will in fact make our sponsors take longer to finish.

Yes but we have no idea of mob numbers and distribution yet, making that assertion nothing more than speculation. The idea of a "sponsor" isn't going to exist anymore too, because entrance is going to be free once you've got your Key Item(s).

IMHO they aim to make relics easier to obtain, and if that means linkshells have to handle currency differently, then I think that's not a bad thing at all.

[Yinnyth]

Yes but we have no idea of mob numbers and distribution yet, making that assertion nothing more than speculation. The idea of a "sponsor" isn't going to exist anymore too, because entrance is going to be free once you've got your Key Item(s).

IMHO they aim to make relics easier to obtain, and if that means linkshells have to handle currency differently, then I think that's not a bad thing at all.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/237-dev1000-Dynamis-Reborn!


•Along with the reduction of the entry time restriction, the amount of Ancient Currency earned per session will be lowered. Overall, this change should increase the Ancient Currency distributed across the World.
Their stated intent is to lower the amount of currency we obtain per run. My speculation that our sponsors will take longer to finish is based on statements made by SE officials.

I will admit I love that sponsoring will no longer cost gil because it opens the opportunity of sponsorship to the poorer members of my LS who loyally attend every run but could never afford sponsoring under the previous system. I'm not really sure if the sponsor system will die for our LS or not yet. If we let currency fall randomly to members, either people will save it for a relic and take ~3 years to finish, or more likely, they'll sell it. The goal of our LS is to see relics finished, and if we're distributing the currency equally amount members, we're less likely to ever see one finished. So it's a toss up. I personally would hate to shift from the sponsor system because I don't think our LS would ever see another relic finished again.

[Tsuneo]

While there may be less currency dropping per run, it was stated that creating relics would become easier this update. How much easier is anyone's guess, but here is the post where it was said.


We are aware that there currently exists a major difference between the strength of Empyrean weapons and that of Relic and Mythic weapons.

In regards to that balance issue, we are planning to make adjustments. We plan to create a higher level of balance by strengthening both Relic and Mythic weapons instead of simply weakening Empyrean weapons.

Along with that, we are also planning to make adjustments to both the time and cost required to create and strengthen Relic and Mythic weapons. Eventually, we would like to even out the differences in the amount of time required to create and strengthen these weapons.
I saw someone say that they said they were only making Mythics easier, but it clearly says both in that post.

[Byrth]

The person was probably confused. There's another post where Camate says Salvage/etc (and mythics by extension) won't be seeing an adjustment in this coming patch.

Also, you'll only sponsor relics slower if you stick to your 3 days a week schedule.

[Yinnyth]

Yes, it will still be a while before they get to balancing out difficulty and reward on all 3 endgame weapon classes, as has been stated. Also, given their track record, there will still probably be the laughable relics and empyreans and mythics- weapons which are harder to obtain than their cousins and/or substantially less useful. Regardless, I still hold out some hope for a vastly more complete level of balance between them all, as well as keeping them all unique from one another.

Edit:
Also, you'll only sponsor relics slower if you stick to your 3 days a week schedule.
While it's true that if I managed to convince my LS to do Dynamis more frequently than the twice a week we currently go (which would be an ordeal in and of itself), it's possible we'll finish more relics per year under this new system... But the truth is that it will still require more hours of active play in Dynamis to finish a relic than it currently requires. The only way this update could make relics easier and faster to obtain is if we somehow get a flood of people doing Dynamis only to sell currency at reasonable prices, which I somehow doubt will happen.

[Alukat]

I don't recall a promise to make relics take longer... I recall a promise to not have to pay for hourglasses every time and to be able to go and farm currency every day.

Also even if they lower the drop rate for currency - if more people are doing Dyna - there will be more on the market. The days of a few linkshells holding most of the ancient currency in the game are probably done with. I think it is too early to complain that the changes to dyna will make relics harder to complete.

I, for one, suspect it is just the opposite.

not for sure, i often saw ppl who bought cheap currencys (5k/10k/12k) and placed them up in bazaar for 7k/12k/15k to make some profit.earlier they were in rolan market now i can find this ppl in port jeuno.bet after a dynamis most ppl warp to jeuno and u just got a small chance to find some cheap currencys before those ppl buy them and push the price.
another point is the possibility to raise 2 crafts to 100 with the coming update.could be that the ah prices of your crafted items drops > slower money making.

25% price drop at currency + 25% price drop at items sold on ah = the same amount of time as it is now.

[Atomic_Skull]

The context of the words where they mention "Balancing" tells me they're making relics easier


They only mentioned relics and mythics in that paragraph, more likely you're just reading it that way because that what you would like it to mean.

[Atomic_Skull]

The analogy that someone made earlier about buying a new computer is perfect. Why should I expect my 5 year old computer to always be the best?

Question: Why should I expect a diamond to keep it's value?

Answer: Because the diamond cartel keeps it that way.


This is not a bad thing.

[Atomic_Skull]

While there may be less currency dropping per run, it was stated that creating relics would become easier this update. How much easier is anyone's guess, but here is the post where it was said.


I saw someone say that they said they were only making Mythics easier, but it clearly says both in that post.

To me it clearly says that they are buffing mythics and relics relative to empyreans and balancing the difficulty between relics and mythics.

[Tsuneo]

To me it clearly says that they are buffing mythics and relics relative to empyreans and balancing the difficulty between relics and mythics.

Along with that, we are also planning to make adjustments to both the time and cost required to create and strengthen Relic and Mythic weapons.
I'm not quite sure how you can read that any other way than it is. Clearly says creating both will be made easier.

[Atomic_Skull]

I'm not quite sure how you can read that any other way than it is. Clearly says creating both will be made easier.

I like how you cut part of the original post out to make it say what you want it to.

Here's the original:


We are aware that there currently exists a major difference between the strength of Empyrean weapons and that of Relic and Mythic weapons.

In regards to that balance issue, we are planning to make adjustments. We plan to create a higher level of balance by strengthening both Relic and Mythic weapons instead of simply weakening Empyrean weapons.

Along with that, we are also planning to make adjustments to both the time and cost required to create and strengthen Relic and Mythic weapons. Eventually, we would like to even out the differences in the amount of time required to create and strengthen these weapons.

"These weapons" means Relic and Mythics weapons, it does not mention or include Empyreans in the last paragraph.

[Tsuneo]

I don't even think you know what you're talking about anymore. When exactly did I say anything about Empyreans? Did you actually ready any of my posts? I don't even know what point you're trying to argue because of lack of consistency. You said SE never said they were making relics easier to obtain, and I provided information to prove otherwise.

[Runespider]

Also, Lol@ Empyreans are fine as 85 weapons lol. Yes, They're good at 85, but my level 99 you're going to lose a lot of damage by keeping it 85. Probably 10~30 base Damage depending on the weapon itself, or more. This will really hurt h2h more than anything I'd think though.

85>90 right now isn't worth the upgrade time unless you're really anal about it, minor upgrade really. Difference between an 85 and 90 emp is marginal. If your only concern is at 99 then a) you don't know if emps will even go past 90 and b) if you care enough you can kill or even brew 1-2 NM every few days and have it done by the time 99 come around anyway.

[Atomic_Skull]

I don't even think you know what you're talking about anymore. When exactly did I say anything about Empyreans? Did you actually ready any of my posts? I don't even know what point you're trying to argue because of lack of consistency. You said SE never said they were making relics easier to obtain, and I provided information to prove otherwise.

You didn't prove anything though. You edited out a sentence in the original post to change it's meaning.

[Arlan]

Compared to Relics and mythics, yes, Your right, they are easyer to obtain and are much powerful than previous armor/weapons.

But, I think the gear in general for AF3+1, in my experience, isn't that UBER even tho it is the most Uber thing so far in ffxi. They most likely going to add MORE stats for the future lvl99 gear. I think what we think is uber today, wont be so uber the next few major updates for lvl99.

Also, the rate you obtain your AF3+1 and the base is pretty decent in my opinion.
You can get your seals by forming ur own pt, and then killing NMs that drop it.
So ya, I like it. I think its pretty decent rate to obtain and earn your armor.
Specially for those who have lives and still love to game!

I think what I really like about the AF3s are the facts that they are equipments that you earn, Not equipments that you can just buy with gilz to upgrade.

I enjoy killing NMs with friends and LS mates. So I think its fun for a change.

[Tsuneo]

You didn't prove anything though. You edited out a sentence in the original post to change it's meaning.
I proved that they did say they were making relics easier to obtain. I never said anything about Mythics. I only proved you wrong in claiming that they never said they were making relics easier. Good job trying to put words in my mouth.

[Catsby]

My only problem with empyrean weapons is that it's so mindless to produce one and that the upgrade progression is backwards.

With Relic weapons each upgrade was harder and harder for your wallet and for the countless people helping you (directly and indirectly). The weapon itself also gradually got stronger as you upgraded, maybe not at the rate it should have but it still was a noticeble boost between upgrades.

Mythic weapons had probably the best upgrade system (hear me out for a second before you hit post quick reply). Instead of mindlessly grinding a single event for months maybe years you were required to experience pretty much everything that ToAU had to offer. I realize that there is plenty of grinding involved there too but take a high level look at everything required before you look deeper at the numbers involved;

Reach floor 100 of nyzul isle
Reach Captain mercenary rank
Clear Odin's chamber
Kill all the beastman leaders
Clear all 4 remnants areas
Collect rare drops from upper tier ZNMs
All the other quests involved

These events themselves took a long time to complete even if you had some of them knocked out before mythics were even introduced. They were also reasonably difficult enough to justify a sweet item after you clear it all ( before you even add in the bullshit requirements like alexandrite, eyepatches and assault ledgers). Going from mythics to empyreans seemed like the developers learned absolutely nothing or just simply doubted that abyssea would be as popular as it was.

In my opinion building an empyrean weapon would be more exciting and would leave less people feeling butthurt if there was a series of requirements similar to mythics. For example a quest chain that requires the player to defeat all the zone bosses, defeat all the caturae, defeat shinryu, turn in X different abyssites and atmas (they are temp key items remember), score a certain number of points in dominion and bastion, use a primeval brew and complete all the quests. You know, requirements that show you did pretty much everything that the add-ons had to offer and in the end you get a nice shiny weapon for it.

edit: also the upgrade progression for empyreans is dumb. it goes from weak and worthless to weak and worthless all the way until you get it to 85. Then the upgrade after that is completely unreasonable for the requirements.

[Kimble]

Mythics would have been fine if they alex cost was A LOT lower or just removed totally. Relics would have been better if maybe currency was dealt with like cruor and given universally to everyone that entered.

[Shoko]

If Mythics costed like 5k in Alex, that alone would be epic. But with today's terms they could cut the costs of ampoules and nyzul credits as well and it would justify upgrading one.

Speaking of Relics, I just have this feeling that they will be crazy easy to obtain soon for some reason.

[Yinnyth]

I agree with you partially, Catsby, but you're cherry-picking the mythic quests. The pre-requisite quests were indeed beautifully done for mythics, and to be fair, I'm glad they're there. I don't want some newb who's never seen Odin getting an ultimate weapon. But those are just pre-requisites. You do them once, then you never have to do them again no matter how many mythics you make. Just like how getting to level 75 is a pre-requisite for wielding one. The real portion of the mythic is the grind. 50 assaults redone (reasonable), Wyrmseeker Areuhaut (mostly reasonable), Balrahn's Eyepatch (slightly reasonable), 3 ZNM trophies (only unreasonable because the zeni system is retarded), 30,000 alexandrite (100% unreasonable BS).

That's what it boils down to. You have to look at what is actually preventing people from completing the weapon. For relics, it's currency. For mythics, it's alexandrite. For empyreans, it's... crowded zones. Ok, I kid- it's the abyssea NM drops. That is what the majority of time is spent on for these weapons. That is what people think of when they think of getting these weapons.

[Leonlionheart]

Something tells me that the new dev team despises ToAU content, considering they haven't used any of it for anything yet, other than the jobs PUP BLU and COR, and the drop rate increases (which happened everywhere other than abyssea).

Maybe thats why Dynamis is seeing so much attention but no ToAU end-game content is? (Einherjar, Salvage, Assault, Nyzul, ZNM)

The point is, new development team, new FFXI. You can't really expect to see similar patterns in updates and content like we used to (Pretty much every piece of gear after sky was a side grade or a minimal upgrade from even AHable gear).

Not that I mind, in fact I quite like Abyssea. I applaud the dev team for not listening to all the QQ HARD STUFF ISN'T HARD LIKE IT WAS IN 2004!

As if "takes up most of your life" = hard.

[Yinnyth]

As if "takes up most of your life" = hard.

This has always interested me. In an MMORPG, what does constitute "hard"? Given the chance to design a quest to create the game's ultimate weapon, how would you go about doing that? How do you create an ultimate weapon which newbs can't get? Would you put it on an extremely difficult boss like an unzergable AV? Make it a reward at the end of a dungeon crawl similar to salvage? Have an NPC sell it for a large amount of gil? Make it crafted out of rare items from several difficult enemies?

In the end, getting the ultimate gear all seems to boil down to time. If you try enough times, you will eventually beat the ultimate NM, finish the dungeon crawl, or acquire enough gil. There is a skill modifier involved, certainly. Some groups manage to milk more currency out of Dynamis, some groups of people kill abyssea NMs faster, etc. But even complete newbs will get it eventually, given enough time.

Ultimately it boils down to the average amount of time one of these items takes to finish, and the time your average player invests in the game. SE can't (directly) control the average time we play their game, and we can't (directly) control the average amount of time it takes to finish a relic. That being said, players have indirectly controlled the average amount of time it takes to finish an empy. For whatever reason, SE decided even the most casual of players deserved ultimate weapons, making it substantially harder to tell hard-core players apart from everyone else. Is it right for anyone with 70 hours of free time to "beat" FFXI? Depends on who you ask, I suppose.

Judging from your signature, I'd say there's lots of things you did on your character that you're proud of, which later got downgraded and made substantially easier for casual gamers. Now that those accomplishments would be so easy, you're forced to put that information in your signature to maintain your pride. And you should be proud of those accomplishments, I'm not trying to belittle them or bash you at all on this. I just think you're being a little hard on the QQers who miss the good old days when it took 30 tries to beat promyvions and relics took a year and a half.

[Dart]

This. I just got my 80 Kannagi yesterday--took me about a month to do it, grinding out a lot of it solo/duo. It will probably be several months until I get the 85. By the time I get the 90, I expect to have put about 8 months of effort into it, which isn't unreasonable for a weapon of its caliber.

What the complaining people aren't getting is that the linkshells that are cranking out a new 90 Emp every week are the same sort of linkshells that would use their banks to buy most of a relic from nothing to complete in a week or two (depending on Attestation, etc.) using the gil they got mercing drops. To the rest of us (i.e. people not in that kind of shell), Emps are much closer in difficulty (still not there, but a lot closer), just without the gil requirement. The requirements for Mythics were always retardedly high for what they give, which is why there are so few of them even today.

If any magian weapons need to be adjusted, it's the Fire/Light elemental line, anyway.

your tears are delicious. I joined some RL friend since I came back who never did kings/merc'd drops or anything like that. (they were always a sea, limbus, dynamis shell) I've been back for 6 weeks now and after helping to organize them we're currently working on empy # 8 and 9. They all have fulltime jobs and the like. Get organized, do some research and actually help each other. There's no reason why you cannot get 6-7 friends together and get everyone an empy and just zerg everything for 4-5 hours during the weekday after work and go a little harder on the weekends.

[Runespider]

This has always interested me. In an MMORPG, what does constitute "hard"?

For me, mobs that are actually so difficult or heck even unfair to fight that you have to be competent to kill and even then have a chance of failure, also yes time is a difficulty because it will scare off some. Emp NM's are a joke, take very little skill or competence to kill and can be finished in a small amount of time.

I finished a kanagi for my sister a few months back just so she could have a toy to mess around with. If she had asked me to get her a relic or a mythic I would of simply laughed but the time and effort was so minimal that I did it for her, that's the ease of Emps.

[Runespider]

•[dev1003]Abyssea Adjustments
The upcoming major version update will see the following adjustments made to Abyssea:
•New Ways to Obtain Empyrean Upgrade Items
•Empyrean +1 seals will be made obtainable via new battlefields.
•Empyrean +2 items will be made obtainable from notorious monsters in additional Abyssea areas as follows:

•Heroes of Abyssea area items will also appear in Scars of Abyssea.
•Scars of Abyssea area items will also appear in Vision of Abyssea.

Having re-reasd, I guess this will add some difficulty. People will not only be popping chloris for emps now but +2!

[Alkimi]

I'd imagine the opposite. People struggle to get help for Visions NMs because there's nothing in it for them but the chance of +2 items will make it more worth their while.

[Atomic_Skull]

I proved that they did say they were making relics easier to obtain. I never said anything about Mythics. I only proved you wrong in claiming that they never said they were making relics easier. Good job trying to put words in my mouth.


How exactly did you prove this?

[Miera]

Unless you are sitting on your butt and having your LS build you every Emperyean weapon without you liften a finger, I'd say, Yea, that is easy...

But no, Not all are easy, H2H and Polearm and great Axe/ Dagger are a pain in the butt. Not to kill though, the KI farms are the killers.... Oh Glavoid, Glavoid, glavoid... Why does Tahrongi Canyon has to suck so bad.

Apademak, is a major killer, literally..

[Mordanthos]

grind money for relics solo, grind NMs for emp weapon solo, what's the difference? both takes a lot of time. and the weapon which requires more time should be on top.

here's a little relic time calculation:
mandau (yeah like to use it because i have experience in building it)



1 byne bills * 10400 *6000 gil = 62400000gil = 62,4M gil
o.bronzepiece * 1400 * 13000gil = 18200000 = 18,2M gil
t. whiteshell * 6100 *11000gil = 67100000 = 67,1M gil
sum = 147,7M gil
now calculating with a profit of 125k gil per hour (farming/crafting, BCNMs and other high gil rewarded events excluded)
= 147700000 gil / 125000 gil/h = 1181,6 hours just for the currencys.now u still need attestion & fragment, this will add approx another 20 hours,depending on drop rate, makes 1201,6 hours = 3,29 years if u craft 24/7 for 125k profit per hour.
due to the fact that u are sometimes able to get more or less due to ah economy this will be an average (did it with cooking 100+8) and that u can't play 24/7 for 3,29 years, this is a good estimated time for a non dynamis running relic hunter.that's for stage 75
75 stage +1 dmg = 4h (~50 kill shots per hour)
75 stage +2 dmg = 4h (~50 kill shots per hour)
75 stage +3 dmg = 6h (~50 kill shots per hour)
80 stage = 6h (~50 kill shots per hour)
85 stage = 8h (~50 kill shots per hour)
90 stage = 15h (3h hours per dynamis run)

summing the relic = 1244,6 hours > 3,4 years

now twashtar:

nocuous weapon *3 = 9h (1-6h repop took the average)
black triple stars *3 = 5h (assuming 2 nights no pop)
serra * 3 = 12h (1-6h repop took the middle)
bugbear strongman *4 = 24 hours (repop time of 1-10h)
la velue * 4 = 8h (stated 1 hour no max repop time known, so gave it 2hours)
hovering hotpot *4 = 20h (average of 2-3h stated on wiki, but i gave it 5hours ;) )
yacumama *6 = 24h (gave u 4 hours per kill ;) )
feuerunke *6 = 24h (gave u another 4 hours per kill )
tammuz *8 = 32h (another 4 hours per kill )
now u are at 75 stage
level 80 stage:
glavoid = 6,8h max + 1h + 30 min(for 1 pop set, shouting, killing) = 8,3hours per kill * 34 kills (used 1,5 shells drop average per kill) = 282,2h (if u solo all the KI's)
- azde 15 min repop 33% chance for KI (15 min killtime, wiki dnc solo) = 90 min > 1,5h per ki
- alectryon forced pop 3 min ??? repop, 33% KI drop rate, 30 min killtime = 99 min > 1,65h per ki
- muscaliet forced pop 3 min ??? repop, 33% KI drop rate, 30 min killtime = 99 min > 1,65h per ki
- minhocao respawn 10-30 min (taking 20 min average), 30% KI drop rate, 20 min kill time (dnc post on wiki states 5 min)= 120 min > 2h

now lets sum it all
9+5+12+24+8+20+24+24+32+282,2 = 440,2 hours for level 80 stage (yep u are already 1 stage above mandau's level)

now stage 85:
itzpapalotl 7 hours + 1 hour + 0,5h (KI farming, shouting, kill) * 34 kills (again 1,5 per pop) = 292,4h
granite borer , forced pop , 11% KI droprate, 20 min to kill = 200 min > 3,3h (to get 1 KI)
blazing eruca , forced pop , 22% KI droprate, 20 min to kill = 100 min > 1,6h (to get 1 KI)
tunga , 15min repop, 48% KI droprate, 30 min to kill = 45min * 3 kills = 135 min > 2,2h (to get 1 KI)

now stage 90:
orthrus: 1h to kill (took whm + nin duo of wiki) + 1h for KI * = 100h
- amarok forced pop 3 min repop forced spawn, 50% KI droprate, 30 min to kill = 60 min > 1h (to get 1 KI)

now lets sum it all up :D
440,2h (stage 80) + 292,2h (stage 85) + 100h (stage 90) = 832,4 hours = 2,28 years.

now u have the proof that relic takes much more time.

(and it was nice preparation for math exam :D )

Hmm, this is pretty accurate however you forgot to factor in one thing to make this argument more accurate. You forgot to mention that all that time required in getting the KI and Items from the bosses in Abyssea also means you'll have to have the Traverser Stones to do so. What happens when you run out of stones? You get 3 stones per day which is only equal to 90 minutes. If you factor in the fact that you have only 3 stones a day, the time spent on aquiring the Emp weapons will equal out to the time required to get the relic.

And also if u just dont do it for a couple days to get some Traverser Stones in stock, then you will have to add that amount of time waiting as time invested in obtaining the weapon. If you wait for 3 days to get 9 stones for a run or two, u have to add that time waited as 72 hours towards the time required to obtain the weapon.

[Byrth]

Hmm, this is pretty accurate however you forgot to factor in one thing to make this argument more accurate. You forgot to mention that all that time required in getting the KI and Items from the bosses in Abyssea also means you'll have to have the Traverser Stones to do so. What happens when you run out of stones? You get 3 stones per day which is only equal to 90 minutes. If you factor in the fact that you are have only 3 stones a day, the time spent on aquiring the Emp weapons will equal out to the time required to get the relic.

Not trying to nitpick, but 3 stones * 48 minutes per stone (if you're assuming all celerities, assume all sojourns) gives you 144 minutes in Abyssea per day even assuming you don't accidentally get time chests.

[Mordanthos]

Not trying to nitpick, but 3 stones * 48 minutes per stone (if you're assuming all celerities, assume all sojourns) gives you 144 minutes in Abyssea per day even assuming you don't accidentally get time chests.

Yes indeed you are correct. But even then, the times capped 120 when you "buy in" so even then youd still have to factor in 120 a day. and according to his big mathematical time log, 120 min isnt enough time to barely get a couple items towards the 50 u need till ur waiting for a new day of 120. And even more so, in terms of soloing, 120 min isnt even enough time to farm a single KI, this is according to his time math.

Id also like to note that his math is pretty wierd in terms of how many years it takes. That relic weapon, at 1,244.6 hours, is not 3.4 years, thats only 51 Days, if u take 1,244.6 Hours devided by 24 Hours per day, it = 51 days, and the Emp weapon at 832 Hours, is like 34 days, so im not sure where this 3.4 years and 2.28 Years thing is coming from.

We are talking a difference of a measly 17 days, its not that much of a difference in terms of "time".

If you factor in the amount of time waiting for refreshed stocks of Traverser Stones and only getting a single KI a day when it requires 3-4 KI to pop the Nm you need for 1-2 Items out of 50, thats already at a minimum of 75-100 days to complete if its 2 drops per kill, and 150-200 days if its 1 drop per kill towards the first 50 items, and don't forget there is another 50 items and 75 items after this, which is already WAYYYYYYYYYYYYY over the 51 days of Relic Completion, it actually would take longer to do a solo Emp Weapon ONLY, and Only, if you always had 0 stones everyday. But also keep in mind, you just can't Solo it anyways, its going to require some sort of Dispel or status removal and heals no matter how good a ninja you are. So now you have to factor in the hours of wasted time shouting in town looking for help, or waiting for your friends that have lives outside of FFXI. In the long run, We make Emp weapons "look" easy, but according to this mathematical table, by adding the above factors, it would probably take longer to do the Emp weapon than it would the Relic in terms of Soloing by a long shot.

[Mordanthos]

Now to make the above argument more fair, i have to take sides with both parties here, in terms that Emp weapons take longer, and relic weapons take longer. Lets change the perspective to Relics here for a moment.

You always compare the time to relics with Gil, and only gil, u always are claiming that it takes so long to get the gil to buy the currency. But the problem is, you dont have to buy the currency. So to make it fair, i will even the odds here.

What if you didnt buy it, you farmed it. Now what we have here is the fact that you only have limited time in Dynamis once a week. So now u have to calculate on average how many items you get for that week, and then add all those days andhours of not being able to go into Dynamis till the next week, adding to the total time it takes to get the currency in dynamis. What is longer? Well in terms of having to wait a week to get inside Dynamis to try again for more Currency, then most likely Relic weapon, but in terms of buying currency, the Emp weapon solo would take longer.