The Decline of FFXI: Forums, Gameplay and Nostalgia

[Akujima]

First I would like to mention that yes, this is a long post. But I assure you that I will try not to make it an overly negative bitter rant and instead just try to point out things which have come to my attention.

I decided to make this thread based on a few things I've seen in different sections of this forum. It's a reoccurring statement, where people are disappointed with certain new content that is being added, while their own creative (and I personally think, very good) ideas are being brushed aside by the developers, simply because (they say) they don't have enough time to implement them.

The example I will use is in the JOBS section: DRAGOON: "Change your wyvern color!"

The link is here: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/455-Change-your-wyvern-color!

Needless to say, the idea is to have different color options for your wyvern, giving a more unique touch to the DRG job.

Now I will say that, in no way is this a major request and in no way does this affect combat, major quests or areas. Heck, it's not even a very major upgrade for DRG. But... There is one thing that this idea does represent: Fun. Simply put, it would be fun for the players, it would be something interesting to see and would add more feeling and character to the DRG job.

There are others who agree with me on this point, and I would like to quote some posts from that thread.


Really SE what is happening with you guys?, 6~9 years ago FFXI was the best MMORPG, you opened this forum to receive feedbacks from the players and to looks what we are wanting, and what we receive? Dynamis-Reborn? (a thread in which the majority of the players are against) New Trigger Conditions to pop Fafnir, Nidhogg, Behemoth and King Behemoth (another thread in which, player are against of implement it). I know you have lot of work to do and I am not against it, but you should take a closer look on what the players really want, as stated by many DRGs on this thread, this is not something new, we have been asking this for years, in the end we are the ones who are playing and this past months has been a wth? is happening with FFXI, many changes are expected to take action, but please do it properly, the general feeling of the players is not good, you have been focusing in add-ons scenarios and not in the expansions, you have been focusing on add more stuffs to do (when we already have many stuffs to do, but many players just don't do it because the rewards are gimped now) why not take a closer look on what we really want and not in what you think we want?.

I know you are working hard but please there are some content we would like to take effect in the short run (like this thread) than other stuffs, if you could delay the world merge, you can delay other stuffs in favor of what your customers wants more, anyway hope you read this, and thank you for taking the time to give us an explanation.

And another.


This is the 2nd or 3rd response from SE stating something along the lines of player requested changes being a "low-priority" to other things.
What other things? Things like [dex1012]? What a waste of time. SE did the same thing with the promyvions, what good did that do? Things like [dev1011]? Treasure caskets...seriously? I've soloed 3 or 4 jobs to level 50 and roughly a dozen to level 30 and I've rarely ever had the need for the items found in these random chests.

I would consider things such as this (wyvern color customization) one of the highest priorities. What separates a good game from a great game is the little things. FFXI already has the makings of a really good game, a VAST and complex story, lots of areas to explore and quests to do, tons of jobs to play, etc. FFXI is pretty late into it's life cycle and is obviously not getting nearly as much attention as FFXIV, why not take the time to make lots of the smaller tweaks that people have been wanting for so long?
Just my 2 gil. :)

Very good posts above, that deal with a ton of subject matter. But I could go on forever with this post, and I doubt many will read it.

So I'll get to my point now.

Forums

My theory is this. Is that Square-Enix designed these forums as a place for us to chase our tails, giving them ideas, thinking they will listen to us. When in reality they just want to implement more time consuming scenarios, in order for us to continue our monthly fee. I believe that this forum itself is a "time consuming tool" invented to get our hopes up that our ideas will be put into the game, waiting and watching while spending precious time and money.

On the other hand, I could just be a psychotic conspiracy theorist.

Gameplay and Nostalgia

Slowly and slowly, the colorful battle system, (that in my opinion made FFXI the classic it is) is slowly vanishing, in favor of the "solo" mindset. You can solo to 90, you can solo Abyssea, you can solo so many things now... And that's great and all, but it really takes away from what makes a good online RPG...

Not to mention how far the difficulty level has decreased or changed. The mobs and bosses are ALOT easier. The only difficulty now is just fighting with one another on who gets to pop what first. I also hear there is a new coming idea, to make an Abyssea like scenario outside of Abyssea. Again only decreasing the difficulty level and adding further imbalance to jobs more and more.


A great video for comparison
The video is a bit silly, but it presents a great synopsis of how developers extend the game time, in order for people to feel like they "got more out of the game"

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aip2aIt0ROM
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So...

What I'm saying is. Actually listen to peoples ideas. Give us FUN things, not just empty promises and false hopes. Give us a difficulty level where we feel a sense of accomplishment and teamwork after downing a boss, or completing a tough quest. Give us LESS of this annoying grind and bland tasteless jobs that play very similar to one another.

Do away with this bitter competition between players, and give us what we felt back when FFXI first came out... A lasting colorful world, where the little things are important too.

[Luso]

I agree with this entirely; many suggestions I've seen from players have either been said to have been something that will be "looked at and considered for the future" or that they will be overlooked or delayed due to limited "developer [or system] resources". The latter can go along with "high-costs", as well.

To me, if SE has the funds to develop XIV and stated that money is not an object in order to get it back on its feet, then where the heck is XI in all of this? I'm pretty sure people are still playing XI more than XIV right now. It still isn't up to par with what I expected. So, concentrate on both MMO's with EQUAL focus; don't put all of your resources into on game and semi give-up on the other. Regardless if it's a decade old or not, if people are still paying for it and it's still profitable to you, give the people what they want (reasonably want) and don't infer or assume that people want what you release.

[Hoshi]

It's quite possible to prove anything by selecting a few quotes and omitting those that say something contrary to your point. I can't say that I see devs refusing to reskin wyverns as a sign that this game is dying. The proposed adjustments are still focusing on much larger scale problems and until all of the big problems are fixed I agree with devs saying that little fun things are not where they're going to focus their time.

I don't find the forums to be an intentional timesink. There have been a lot of little tweaks that have been garnered from the forums and approved by devs (getting to kirin, ranger fixes, vit adjustments as an attempt to fix plds [no i don't think that's the answer], relic vs emp weapon adjustments, the difficulty of xi for attracting and keeping new players). There are a lot of suggestions made on this board and it would be impossible to implement all of them so I don't blame devs for prioritizing. I don't think it's a waste of your time to post a good idea here if you have one.

Yeah the old days were awesome but you'd be complaining about that too if things were exactly the same as they were 8 years ago... the grass is always greener and whatnot.

[Karbuncle]

We cannot expect every single silly or asinine idea will be added to the game. This Forum* was more about the open discussion of ideas, and feed-back on upcoming content. as well as some suggestions. They do listen, they just can't listen to everything. especially with a very limited staff and development time.

The Community Reps have responded to a lot of threads, and the good ideas will generally get looked into. And how is the game slowly becoming a "Solo" mindset, when just about every announced new event for this update requires a minimum of 3/6 or 18 people? I think if Anything they're moving back to their roots of "Team oriented" playstyles.

The mobs and bosses aren't "A lot easier" per-say, Go fight Rani and Shinryu without a brew. The mobs are fine and dandy in terms of difficulty, its the fact that Brews exist that makes them do-able by most failure groups. A lot of Abyssean mobs are just as difficult, if not more so, than past mobs (PW and AV excluded).

The only difficult fights of past days were PW and AV, anything else is Nostalgia-vision. The mobs weren't difficult or hard, in fact the most difficult part of a lot of fights back at 75 was claiming the mob. Besides, as a game progressing, players tend to get smarter, Enemies become easier due to finding a pattern, or learning how to fight it. eventually every enemy becomes "Simpler".

I won't deny Atma/Cruor has put the game on an Easier track, To sound like a broken record, mobs like Rani, Raja, and Shinryu show that even with Cruor/atma, There are still challenging opponents, what ruins that is Brews being so readily available. However no ones forcing you to use one if you do indeed want the Challenges.

I see shouts every so often for Non-brewed Shinryu on Asura.

On the topic of the Wyvern thing, Yah, It may sound simple on our side, but it would take a lot of time and effort to program it in, i hate to say it but you should really consider .dat swaps if you want your wyvern to be prettier. Maybe down the line they'll add this.

What needs to be understood is that right now they're limited on Production time, and staff. The ideas we think now are great that can't be added, might very well be added down the line when the team has more free-time. While it may seem like they aren't listening or taking ideas, they are.

Even if their response is "not right now" we need to accept they're probably very busy with the upcoming updates, and while i really agree something like a Wyvern color change option would be fun, I'd sooner take "Content" over "Something accomplished through .dat swaps" if i had to choose between the two.

Trust me when i say, They are taking our ideas, each post they make is proof of that. Even if not every single thread gets attention, I'm sure they're looking through them and presenting them to the Reps.

[Olor]

Well I would be a lot more forgiving of developer "limitations" if it wasn't for the fact that they are siphoning money off XI to invest in XIV. It seems pretty bogus that we have to finance their failure to produce a game that's even remotely playable.

[Akujima]

I read the post above :P

Actually, it might have been unintentional, but remember how in "A Ninja without Throwing" I kept mentioning how everyone was ganging up and pressing their own "like button" against me. Then a few days later, they did an update to the forum and now we can't press our own "like button"... lol...

Funny huh? :D

[Karbuncle]

Well I would be a lot more forgiving of developer "limitations" if it wasn't for the fact that they are siphoning money off XI to invest in XIV. It seems pretty bogus that we have to finance their failure to produce a game that's even remotely playable.

Yah i don't disagree it sucks, But they're not magic. They have limited production time because of the higher ups.

I bet you ... alot?.. that if the Dev team had their way, 99% of the ideas here would be added. They want the game to be nice. Its not their fault they're restricted on time/team members. The highers basically said "Revive FFXIV" and they got shafted.

No game developer wants to see their creation die.


Actually, it might have been unintentional, but remember how in "A Ninja without Throwing" I kept mentioning how everyone was ganging up and pressing their own "like button" against me. Then a few days later, they did an update to the forum and now we can't press our own "like button"... lol...

Funny huh? :D

See? Some things are getting added. Even if its crappy forum features.

[Airget]

Honestly I think people are just huffing and puffing over things they don't have full knowledge of yet. When it comes to the dynamis zones, they are areas that could now be done by 6 people with little to no problems and make good gil from it, however they could claim the zone making it difficult for others to do it if they happened to want to go at the same time. When you consider the frustration that can come from that some people may just give up the idea of even entering dynamis. With the new idea in mind they are allowing people to enter dynamis as they please and on a daily timer, so if what they really want a relics they can spend 2hrs a days working on obtaining currency for it rather then pay 500k claim a zone and farm it for as long as they can.

When it comes to customization sometimes you just have to accept the fact that it's the ps2 that's holding that aspect down, you know the company is capable of making customization if you look at XIV but XI has grown based on it's content rather then it's overall customization that to add it now based on the resources it would require just doesn't make sense in the long run. In a sense changing wyvern colors could be seen as pankration or even chcoobo racing, while it looks to be fun in the end it's gonna be looked over and only slightly given notice at the time of it's creation. If I'm correct they even said that it's not as simple as a texture change since they would have to create unique names for each aspect of the wyverns action and such so if one wyvern takes up x data then 7 more colors will take up 7x, and with the ps2 they do have to be stingy with what they can and can't do. While later on they may be able to find loopholes to ease the amount of memory it'll use overall actual content should take priority.

On the aspect of "easy mode" I dunno I kind of disagree with that, when you consider how abyssea first started it looked to be difficult and challenging but through the unlocking on lunar abyssites we were given a means of evening the odds against foes that may destroy smaller groups. While people may say things like MNK WHM can duo nearly anything what good is duoing when you end up having to fight the same monster 5 times more to get the drops you want when you could have just teamed up with others and proced to increase your odd, as well as make the fight overall easier and quicker. It's not truly SE's fault that people duo MNK/WHM in abyssea it's greed. They don't want competition for their items so they rather solo it so they don't have to share what they obtain.

Also there is a bit of irony in your last comment lol "Do away with this bitter competition between players, and give us what we felt back when FFXI first came out... A lasting colorful world, where the little things are important too."

If you have ever camped the 3 land kings for 3hrs you would see there is a lot of bitter competition to be had between players and the use of claim bots to get what people want. With what they added by making it a pop they have slightly eased the frustration as well as the unnecessary bickering between players to claim such mobs, while it may be a bit late some who had wanted a BB but felt discouraged because of time can now actually have a fighting chance. If one wished to make a suggestion about the orbs used to pop the kings a simple one would be to reduce the KS needed from 99 to 50, it's not like they haven't reduced the cost of something before, Limbus use to be 30k, Salvage 1.5k assault points and Dynamis 1million gil entry fee.

Overall though if you look at the big picture what SE is attempting to do is bring life to the world as a whole and ease on the time constraints we were once stuck with ie 3hr dynamis now a max of 2hrs. A lot of content in XI use to be sit and wait or a long session of killing baddies to arrive at the boss, it's suddenly changed to having a wide variety of options to choose from within Abyssea and slowly working it's way out into the outside realm. It's difficult to add everything in one fell swoop which is why everything is being done in steps, as well as tweaks where they seemed necessary.

Think about Abyssea for a second, odds are all 3 expansions were setup the same way a lot of KI to pop the Boss NM and then a secret boss to fight, but the players felt the amount of KI needed to pop the Bosses were unnecessary so with the later add ons they eased it and made less KI needed for the scar bosses and later on the hero bosses.

It's not that they aren't listening to people ideas it's that they can't take every single persons idea. What you also need to remember is there are also 3 other forums that have their own opinions as well, so just because a majority of "forum posters" may not approve or dislike the idea of dynamis changing doesn't mean the other forums think the same way or even those that choose not to state their opinion.

[Zumi]

No the dyanmis reborn is a good idea, and people are so stubborn that they don't want SE to change the outdated content for the better.

[Seriha]

Until we're 99 and a few more of the "new endgame" environments are fleshed out, panicking over current levels of solo or even low-man ability is a lost cause as current things aren't quite meant to be the pinnacle of eventual cap difficulty. Personally, I don't miss the good old days of sitting on my duff waiting for a party or waiting for the perfect job to appear LFG if making one. I don't miss trying to organize 12+ people for a single event, and I'm sure those who did that consistently didn't really enjoy it when paired against complaints of favoritism, someone not wanting to play X job, no shows, maintaining point systems, etc.. Events that require high numbers of people for large chunks of time are, unfortunately, not on the plate of your average casual player, which also tends to be a growing majority of the XI players as we've grown up, gotten out of high school/college, taken on full-time jobs, started families, etc.. To the dismay of some, SE is often better served catering to the majority if dealing with limited resources, which means the people with the time and ability to do such things will probably be left hanging.

Now, when it comes to posting ideas here and feeling like we're spinning our wheels, I'd agree there's a bit of despair floating around, particularly when it comes to current job balance or lack of knowledge on future plans. On the other hand, you have ideas like the Wyvern color, which to some are just going to come off as a waste of time for a moment of vanity. Compared to the alluded job issues, Campaign, Beseiged, the state of crafting, and other pressing ills, things like that, the backwards beetle foot, or Cid's bum opening up into another dimension should not be priority.

As is, we're unsure how knowledgeable our CT is when it comes to the overall game and how it works since they don't chat with us mere mortals too often. Some problems come up from such a perspective, so it's possible things could go over their head, not get translated properly, and so on. It just gets more murky when you see a bunch of bad ideas floating around that might unfortunately make sense to those unfamiliar with actual mechanics or community perceptions.

[Akujima]

Well I like all the replies so far.
It's good to hear peoples feedback.

[Leonlionheart]

Oh god, if 90% of the 'ideas' given in this forum were implemented in the game, we'd be playing a watered down version of the power rangers game for game boy advanced.

Most of this forum is completely retarded, and the rest of it is generally QQ.

Yeah, Dynamis reborn is meh. The synergy thing is meh.

However everything else in the upcoming update has the potential to be awesome, but it also has the potential to fail just like some of the previous updates (Evolith?).

You also have to consider that there are more players than not that don't give a rat's ass about the community and are just in game right now enjoying it. They have an opinion, you'll just never hear it anywhere outside of the game.

Don't act like the few of you who are discontent represent the entire playerbase.

[Bigboy]

Another thread with a few people who think they speak for most people. I see that there are a fair amount of people jumping into this thread to express similar sentiments to my own though. This upcoming patch brings so much awesome to the game, I am really looking forward to it.

You really can't spend your time complaining about the things SE hasn't done (except implement jumping, or laxing height restrictions on movement to allow moving over 3 inch ledges) when you are still getting something. If they were sitting on their thumbs, like I felt they were doing about 2 years ago (I was wrong) then we wouldn't be seeing all these enhancements to game play.

I also feel like it is really important to not slap them in the face before we've seen an update just because we have a better idea of what it entails. Only recently has SE become as transparent with their game development as I'd like, and to spit in their faces for finally telling you what to expect seems like taking a step backwards.

If you can't see the massive improvements, you may need to take a break. I took one for about 4 months, and when I came back about 2 months ago, I got completely re-hooked. They've really been working hard, and it amazes me when people cant see that.

[Anewie]

I deactivated my account today and am planning on quitting. I've been playing 8 years, completed 2 relics, 2 empyreans, 2 salvage sets, mutiple sets of af3 and killed almost every major NM/HNM long spawnshort spawn/lottyery in game! I've had a good run. Met my husband on here and I am not dissapointed as I am a bit sad it's just fun anymore.

I come from the aquaresoft generation. Final antasy 7 came out when I was in junior high, amazing game. I played ff7-10 and loved mutiple games squaresoft released! I love fairy tales and that's what the majority of squares old titles revolved around: story telling.

I got hooked on ffxi, and ever since they became square enix, their offline games just were so bland and uninteresting. Hard to get into. They lacked the heart and soul of a good story, but I still had FFXI! I enjoyed everything from exping in the dunes and qufim island (alot of fun imo) to camping khimaira/tiamat on my busy days when All i could do was watch for a pop every hour.

I won't lie, I have a great dislike for whining. I also have a great appreciation for the casual player. Casual players are kinder. They are usually not drama queens and are often more considerate. I'm glad they getting abyssea and having lots of fun. I'm not a hater. I had my elitest fun with salvage, nyzul and hnms for YEARS while the casual and kind couldnt even attempt such content. They got an event that is designed for them, finally. However, I feel the game has lost too much to keep me interested. Im just blazing through empyrean and af3 and it's rly boring ;/.

I'll use the word noob, but not in an elitest way, just as a way to define someone who just doesn't care to play their job with any amount of focus, i hate these players. They are the same as botters/cheaters imo. Botters/cheaters will block ppl and ruin another persons gamejust to win.

A noob doesn't care at all and also has no consideration for others. They don't care for levels or progress. Unlike people who always want to be better than such person, these people want everyone to be as bad as them, and they don't want others to be able to do things, they cannot do or do not WANT to do..

They will grip and complain about anything that is even remotley incovnienant to them, without even trying and they don't want anyone to be better than or have access to things they don't have. Not because it's an unfair situation, but they simply are inconsiderate to the fact that some people enjoy different things than them and want to do different things. They want the game to revolve around them, instead of them revolving around thhe game.

They don't want people to have the option to strive harder than them, because they know they couldnt care. They want things handed to the and they want the best, without effort. They are never satisfied and I find players like this.. worse than the cheaters. Theres something amazinsingly pathetic about a person who just doesn't want to even try. Let alone try and enjoy the process of MAKING PROGRESS on goals as opposed to just getting the best in 1-2 hours. They are jealous of others who are honestly hard working player, and also, enjoys playing to the best of their abilities. They often justify their success by labeling them cheaters or no lifers etc. Get out.

You can easily a spot a player like this, they are usually blaming botting and other people for their lack of success. The fact is, as Orson said in another thread: these people will always suck and they will always complain.

The issue is, SE is giving in to these people it seems.

In a perfect MMO, there should be content to that exists for all types of players. There should be content for the casual, the elite, the hardcore and everyone should respect eachother. But it seems that will never be the case. Before, the casual were getting screwed on the fun and the jerks were loving their tears. Now, the casual get everything and the long term more hardcore base is, in my honest opinion, getting very shafted.

Part of me finds it funny, honestly. All these years of botting, drama and screwing the little guys out and now theyre getting screwed. Lets take relics for example, Relics are the hardest item to get in ffxi. Yet they are gimped down by such a large portion to weapons that take 1-3 weeks to complete. It took me 2 years OF farming and sponsorship to complete my gjallarhorn. My friend took 2 1/2 years to complete his aegis. We are not jerks eithers. Sure, ive seen my fair share of drama. All in all i am a more kind player in game. I respect everyones interests and don't laugh at others. I DESPISE the drama on bg. (i enjoy trolling though! Thats harmless^^)

This game has one sever problem. The player base has no respect for other. I was once considerred at the top of game. I had everything and I was a good player. I was a dedicated customer to this company. Now, although my gear and merits are still top tier. I am bored and it seems they have stopped adding content that really interested me and my groups, because other people decided to cheat and ruin it. Then you had the noobs who have never seen the inside of the king camp and complaining about black belt. The same people blame botters and rmt for their lack of success when the fact is, they just suck and are lazy. They only skill they have to crying until they get what they want.

I used to hope square enix would release a RPG that had a real story to tell and was fun. Like the old FF's. Final fantasy has NOT been good, had the quality of heart and soul, since Final fantasy X. It just hasnt and anyone whos played a variety of the older and newer games, whether they enjoyed them or not, will agree. The heart is gone. After ff13, i accepted, the days of heart in their RPGs is gone.

I have a simliar feeling about FF11. This game has done a 180. It's not even a bad 180. As before when you didnt have content that appealed to the casual, now they don't have any content that appeals to the uncasual or "elite". I hate that word but I don't know what else to call it. I know it seems like a petty thing to cry about, Who doesnt wanna complete an ochain in 3 weeks, mostly duo/trio?:P but, Its just not fun. If theyre going to fund ffXIV with FFXI, which is undoubtedly what they are doing.. The best way to do it is to make content that appeals to people who are casual. Making a new char and rushing them to lvl90 and getting the best gears take.. what.. a month? It's easy to start and get the best now. That's good for business. FFXI is easy to start and it's not hard to get the best. It's actually fairly easy. Requires only time. SE needs the game to appeal to the casual and to appeal to people who don't have a lot of game time. This will increase the likelyhood of someone activating an account. The game is not difficult at all.

I don't think they are going to add new world NM/HNM or any other creative events like salvage or sandworm doomvoid! That would be so much fun! But i think voidwatch and even "The last stand" will be of the abyssea related and although I think they will add many more events, I think it will all revolve around atmas, cruour, and things of the "abyssea nature". They reworded it "atmacite" but thats more than liely just going to be a gimped down version of an atma.

I dont think we will get anymore new area/expansions outside the Last stand, and I dont think they will discontinue ps2 support.

I believe they are focused on putting minimal amount of creativity into ffxi, just enough to keep the game flowing to its player base. They have to save ff14 and thats their priority. If ff14 does not recover, it will mean the end of Square enix. FF14 is a major thing for them because the future of the company rests on it. Funding dev. for ffxi on a creative scale like the past, i can't see it being possible, while still being able to put substantial funds into FF14.I guess the longevity, luck and unknown aspect of the old ffxi was exciting to me! I loved it!

Anyway, One positive note about the game is, we are more connected as a base now. We work together more and theres hardley any drama anymore. Thats awesome! Does the game lack variety, fun, mystery, excitment? I think so, very much. But after 8 years, it maybe time for others to have some fun!

The game cannot, should not, revolve around you, your group or just on player type. Everyone deserves a chance at stuff and i had mine and got what i payed for.

[Karbuncle]

I keep seeing "Their priority is saving FFXIV". While this is correct for the company, I assure you the people you're typing this too, the Devs and Reps, want all the focus back on FFXI. Because its their game and its their project.

They really don't have a choice but to obey the higher ups. When they gave the call to save FFXIV and FFXI got robbed of a lot of its resources, I'm sure the dev team was as disappointed and as upset as anyone.

So don't be too upset with the Devs, I'm sure its not their choice to have limited time and resources :|

[Romanova]

one thing I want to say to the "fun" aspect, is that they do still add fun little things, and that doesn't mean they have to add all the fun little things.

For example, job emotes. They add zero to the game, but they are fun and silly little things to get that can give you a couple of chuckles.

I agree with you (OP) that they should keep adding the big and the small, but you have to keep it in perspective and realize they are adding small, even if it just doesn't happen to be a particular drg one at this point.

[Akujima]

I come from the Squaresoft generation...

I used to hope square enix would release a RPG that had a real story to tell and was fun. Like the old FF's. Final fantasy has NOT been good, had the quality of heart and soul, since Final fantasy X. It just hasnt and anyone whos played a varioety of the older and newer games, whether they enjoyed them or not, will agree. The heart is gone. After ff13, i accepted, the days of heart in their games is gone.

Thank you.

Thank you for such an awesome post and I'm glad you posted it in this thread. Amazing read.

[Anewie]

Thank you.

Thank you for such an awesome post and I'm glad you posted it in this thread. Amazing read.
<3 People in the spam section of BG, say I am incapable of an intelligent conversation :P. They would be surprised to know, I am really just kidding most time in that section! I loved FFXI and I loved Square soft. I payed for great games and i got great games. Times change, MMOs change, People move on. Butt hurt noobs and cheating jerks or not, FFXI was an amazing game back at 75. I personally tried to find fun, in the things I had time for, at that time in my life. Even though I was guilty of stepping on others toes occasionally, I tried really hard not too.

Lovex from BG!

[Meyi]

What did I just read...?

I think that accusing Square Enix of having evil intentions for creating the forums is wrong. The odds are high that they took notice of all the fan made forums (BG, Wiki, Killing Ifrit, Alla, etc) and realized that such a strong community base for FFXI is strongly desired by the fans.

We should also take note that several suggestions are stupid. And to be fair, Square Enix representatives have come into a handful of topics and explained that while yes, the development team thought it was a fascinating idea, they don't have the man power/time/money/resources to pull it off. Or, if they did like it and did have all the resources they needed, the idea would be considered and possibly added at a later date.

I found it amusing that you talked so sweetly of FFXI in its younger years as if it had been perfectly constructed. As if there was no competition and everything was the perfect flare of challenge. Do some more digging around here and other forums and you'll discover how silly it is to think that the game had been perfect then and pointless now.

Do you think that pop NMs are a pain? Consider the Kings then. And it wasn't as if Kirin -- one of the few popped NMs of the old era -- could have more than one pop up at once. (Not to mention that Kirin took hours to kill while popped NMs in Abyssea take a few minutes.) The difference between then and now is that now we control when our Notorious Monsters are up and have much more incentive to group up and help each other out. Odds are nobody wanted to group up to kill Fafnir, but people don't mind helping a group kill their popped Wherwetrice faster so that they can pop their own.

The difference is that today the game is a game and no longer a second job.

[Seriha]

We should also take note that several suggestions are stupid. And to be fair, Square Enix representatives have come into a handful of topics and explained that while yes, the development team thought it was a fascinating idea, they don't have the man power/time/money/resources to pull it off. Or, if they did like it and did have all the resources they needed, the idea would be considered and possibly added at a later date.

This reminds me, while we'll eventually be getting access to the test server, giving players the tools to actually create content for the game could be an insanely successful maneuver if done right. Back in the day I worked with a few others on a Diablo II mod that ran on a private server. We'd pretty much redone the entire equipment progression, loot tables, mods, skills, and while somewhat restrictive earlier in D2s life, we'd also made custom areas and monsters.

Understandably only the most savvy and dedicated would actually be able to create things of quality, but with the players basically working as free labor in this case, they gain the ability to pick and choose additions they'd like to port over, be it as is or with some tweaks. Aside from some possible community recognition, successful mods could grant the creators free subscriptions, names on possible equipment tied to whatever, the mobs themselves, and so on. Repeat successes could possibly lead to actual hiring to the dev team.

The downside, and perhaps why this would never happen, is this level of control and creation would give players access to knowledge we can only currently estimate or believe we've reverse engineered. In effect, some of the "mystery" they cherish would be lost even though so many things could be looked into or problems solved.

As is, I haven't been particularly hyped about this update. Sure, there are some creature comfort perks to look forward to, but those range anywhere from "Should've been that way from the start." or "Too late to really care about it." for people. Other things are simply too much in "wait and see" status. NMs don't excite me much, for example, without knowing what they drop and their overall difficulty. And if they're designed so you have to kill them dozens upon dozens of times, they'll lose their charm pretty quick, especially if they're more on the annoying side (and I differentiate this from actual difficulty). The VIT thing could maybe be interesting, but I just can't see it ushering the return of blood tanking in situations where Atmas aren't involved. Maybe they're hiding some doozies like a Part II to job updates? I dunno, but holding back on such things aren't what I'd call beneficial this close to patch time.

[Akujima]

This reminds me, while we'll eventually be getting access to the test server, giving players the tools to actually create content for the game could be an insanely successful maneuver if done right. Back in the day I worked with a few others on a Diablo II mod that ran on a private server. We'd pretty much redone the entire equipment progression, loot tables, mods, skills, and while somewhat restrictive earlier in D2s life, we'd also made custom areas and monsters.

OMG if they gave us this much to play around with, I would be in there everyday, tweaking Throwing and improving it for NIN...

...(waits for Karb/Wish/GG to come into this thread and bash my skull in)

[Anewie]

What did I just read...?

I think that accusing Square Enix of having evil intentions for creating the forums is wrong. The odds are high that they took notice of all the fan made forums (BG, Wiki, Killing Ifrit, Alla, etc) and realized that such a strong community base for FFXI is strongly desired by the fans.

We should also take note that several suggestions are stupid. And to be fair, Square Enix representatives have come into a handful of topics and explained that while yes, the development team thought it was a fascinating idea, they don't have the man power/time/money/resources to pull it off. Or, if they did like it and did have all the resources they needed, the idea would be considered and possibly added at a later date.

I found it amusing that you talked so sweetly of FFXI in its younger years as if it had been perfectly constructed. As if there was no competition and everything was the perfect flare of challenge. Do some more digging around here and other forums and you'll discover how silly it is to think that the game had been perfect then and pointless now.

Do you think that pop NMs are a pain? Consider the Kings then. And it wasn't as if Kirin -- one of the few popped NMs of the old era -- could have more than one pop up at once. (Not to mention that Kirin took hours to kill while popped NMs in Abyssea take a few minutes.) The difference between then and now is that now we control when our Notorious Monsters are up and have much more incentive to group up and help each other out. Odds are nobody wanted to group up to kill Fafnir, but people don't mind helping a group kill their popped Wherwetrice faster so that they can pop their own.

The difference is that today the game is a game and no longer a second job.

Reading comprehention isn't your strong point I'm guessing.

The post was less about how better ffxi then was than now, and more about how the then, there was much more choice and variety. When theres more choice and variety, it makes the flaws much LESS apparent.

Karbuncle made an excellent point however, the game is in a transition period. The problem I have with this is, ever since abyssea came out. The only new content they have added is things that are in relation to abyssea. Now it's been 7 months and again voidwatch, is nothing more than abyssea v2. You can argue the abyssites and various changes will make a signifcant difference, but the fact is, its abyssea related-ish.

Most people want something new. Waiting a year and a half for something NEW is totally unreasonable. From the roadmap, it appear the soonest we will get something totally new is The last stand. FFXIV is a new game so it's a bad example but they are getting new stuff. We are just getting scaled up (or down) abyssea related content. Also, from the description, its just a single NM per battle. So, in all, its less content than an abyssea zone but it could be.. harder.. Right?

I'm not one of those people who is complaining about mob difficulty. Game mechanics are too recognizeable now. What I think people want, is something new of something old. Dont want bot wars and drama, but something that resembles some form and scale of the original endgame event would be nice. Even if that is not the case, which I think it is...

What people don't want? More abyssea and more abyssea TYPE content. People are less upset by the fact that they didnt add new content, as the fact that it SOUNDS like they are planning.. New abyssea type stuff. Weakness procs.. Stones.. abyssites...That npc that issues stones... And the mobs looks exactly the same minus a few. It really reeks of Abyssea-related content, and there is ENOUGH stuff like that. Save the update till you come up with something more interesting..


People are sick sick sick sick sick, of VNMs, Abyssea, magian trials. Is that saying it sucks and isn't fun? Absolutley not. And adding trials for dumb sh*t like king gears is insulting.

OH HAY, WE WONT GIVE U NEW CONTENT BUT... WE'LL MAKE IT WORTH YOUR WHILE TO DO THE OLD STUFF AGAIN! TEE HEE.

Because that makes sense. That specifically the reason why people wanted an abyssea type event so bad, because of the old stuff. Keep in mind, they didn't make the old stuff any easier to do. They just increased our level, instanced some of the content and threw in trials. The only issue is, most of us already been there done that, and now that we're freakin 15 levels higher, now its even easier. More mindless and almost as pointless, because i doubt augments on zenith slacks will be so amazing, ill just have to use them over goetie or adoios legs+2. And the people who didn't get their black belts and kill any nq/hq kings, let alone get into a ls that does ks99... well, they are just as incapable as they ever were. Theyre not gonna do it anymore than they did before. Know what theyre gonna do? Complain.

And if you veiwed the game as a job, that only highlights your flaws, not the games. The game was designed a certain way for a reason. The game wasn't flawed, the player bases assumptions about how it should be played were. It was never a second job. It was simply a game that required more time and focus to see the the best rewards than most mmos. Just because you weren't having fun reaching for your goals, doesn't mean others werent. It's not the companys fault you didn't have the time to accomplish things as fast as you wanted too. Neither did i or anyone else. You play when you can, if you want too, and if you can't finish something, log in when you can. Most all content had this option available to you.

What you wanted was to complete an ultimate weapon in a week, with just yourself and another person. FFXI, imo, thats not how it should work. There are plenty of mmos for people who like finishing things quick and like having the best stuff handed to them. FFIX is not a solo player game and the best should always come from time, focus, dedication. Considering its a video game, it's hardley work.

[Akujima]

What you wanted was to complete an ultimate weapon in a week, with just yourself and another person. FFXI, imo, thats not how it should work. There are plenty of mmos for people who like finishing things quick and like having the best stuff handed to them. FFIX is not a solo player game and the best should always come from time, focus, dedication. Considering its a video game, it's hardley work.

Agree. I mean isn't that the whole idea of the weapon being ultimate? Because it took a crap load of questing/battling to get it, that's why. (But personally I think they overdid it a little with it taking nearly a year to get relics. Something like 3~ months seems better... But a week? Jeez...)

I vote for less of the spoon fed attitude, get in some difficulty and challenge. And I'm not talking about gear and cool items, all the treasure whoring is great and all, but I'm talking about difficult and strategic battles. Battles that make you think on your feet, and make you attempt the boss fight 2~3 times even with the best gear. I love how in depth FFXI's battle system was when it first came out... Trick Attack... Skillchains... Magic Bursts... It was just so cool... I loved lower levels so much simply because of that.

More dynamic game play please!

[Anewie]

Agree. I mean isn't that the whole idea of the weapon being ultimate? Because it took a crap load of questing/battling to get it, that's why. (But personally I think they overdid it a little with it taking nearly a year to get relics. Something like 3~ months seems better... But a week? Jeez...)

I vote for less of the spoon fed attitude, get in some difficulty and challenge. And I'm not talking about gear and cool items, all the treasure whoring is great and all, but I'm talking about difficult and strategic battles. Battles that make you think on your feet, and make you attempt the boss fight 2~3 times even with the best gear. I love how in depth FFXI's battle system was when it first came out... Trick Attack... Skillchains... Magic Bursts... It was just so cool... I loved lower levels so much simply because of that.

More dynamic game play please!

I agree. I felt bad for my friend. He spent years getting aegis and I freakin shot through ochain like nobodies business and it is so gamebreaking o.o. I mean it rly is an AMAZING shield. It makes aegis laughable.

It's is by far, imo, the best ultimate weapon in ffxi. It's more useful than yagrush, ghorn and aegis. It makes pld, literally unkillable. The problem is, game atm makes pld useless. If pld was the main tank again, It would be stunning for a group or linkshell.

[Akujima]

I agree. I felt bad for my friend. He spent years getting aegis and I freakin shot through ochain like nobodies business and it is so gamebreaking o.o. I mean it rly is an AMAZING shield. It makes aegis laughable. And not sarah palin laughable. I'm talkin someone lonely enough to stalk freakin debbie gibson laughable.

It's is by far, imo, the best ultimate weapon in ffxi. It's more useful than yagrush, ghorn and aegis. It makes pld, literally unkillable. The problem is, game atm makes pld useless. If pld was the main tank again, It would be stunning for a group or linkshell.

Ochain sounds pretty broken. But making PLD unkillable... Hmm~ Sounds like another decrease in the difficulty level. But who knows, maybe they'll get the picture with FFXIV and realize that dynamic creative content is the only way to go. We need more heart in our games... For serious.

PS. Need a 2nd husband? We can reminisce about the good ole days, when Square's were Soft, play Secret of Mana together and drop our controllers in awe when Aeris died in... wait. It just hit me. After all these years, she died... NoooooooOOOOooOOO!!!!...

[Anewie]

Ochain sounds pretty broken. But making PLD unkillable... Hmm~ Sounds like another decrease in the difficulty level. But who knows, maybe they'll get the picture with FFXIV and realize that dynamic creative content is the only way to go. We need more heart in our games... For serious.

PS. Need a 2nd husband? We can reminisce about the good ole days, when Square's were Soft, play Secret of Mana together and drop our controllers in awe when Aeris died in... wait. It just hit me. After all these years, she died... NoooooooOOOOooOOO!!!!...

I cried when that happened! So shocking. I was pissed too cause was a main party member too>< I had to lvl someone else up in her place >.>.

[Meyi]

Reading comprehention isn't your strong point I'm guessing.

The post was less about how better ffxi then was than now, and more about how the then, there was much more choice and variety. When theres more choice and variety, it makes the flaws much LESS apparent.

I've been told that a lot, unfortunately.

The first post (which was the only post I was responding to), first talked about Dragoons and different colored wyverns, then about the forums and SE not listening to its players, to Abyssea is easy, to wanting the game to be fun again. I've yet to find "choice and variety" in the first post.


And if you veiwed the game as a job, that only highlights your flaws, not the games. The game was designed a certain way for a reason. The game wasn't flawed, the player bases assumptions about how it should be played were. It was never a second job. It was simply a game that required more time and focus to see the the best rewards than most mmos. Just because you weren't having fun reaching for your goals, doesn't mean others werent. It's not the companys fault you didn't have the time to accomplish things as fast as you wanted too. Neither did i or anyone else. You play when you can, if you want too, and if you can't finish something, log in when you can. Most all content had this option available to you.

What you wanted was to complete an ultimate weapon in a week, with just yourself and another person. FFXI, imo, thats not how it should work. There are plenty of mmos for people who like finishing things quick and like having the best stuff handed to them. FFIX is not a solo player game and the best should always come from time, focus, dedication. Considering its a video game, it's hardley work.

First I would like to point out that you are making a lot of poor assumptions about me. Never once did I expect things to ever be handed to me. Never once did I expect end game at 75 to be completed with a duo.

Because I highly disagreed with End game shells and their rules, and because I found the events rather depressing and boring rather than enjoyable, I did not do the events. I never complained how people who did these events got the items because they put forth the effort, and therefore, they deserved the gear. That's great for them. But such an event was not an event for me. Instead I did other things in the game that I found enjoyable because it's that, a game.

I'm going to break down the previous quote and respond to it.



And if you veiwed the game as a job, that only highlights your flaws, not the games. (...) It was simply a game that required more time and focus to see the the best rewards than most mmos.

The reason the game felt like a job was because it required players to log in at odd hours for a desired item because the monster popped at those hours. I remember setting my alarm to wake up at 3 in the morning to help a friend get her YinYang Robe. After that I realized no video game is worth losing sleep over. Unfortunately Shikigami popped every 21 hours and in order to not lose the Time of Death, someone would at least have to go watch for it. Eventually yes, it would come back into North American time, but, when it did, the Time of Death would again be unknown.

The same applied to Land Kings.

So yes, while the game itself did not require anyone to play at odd hours -- because nothing in the game is a necessity -- the monsters did have terrible hours. That was a problem with the game itself, not the players. And while I appreciate the attempt to make the world alive and interlinking the timezones together by making monsters pop throughout the day, I feel it caused more harm than good. From a roleplaying perspective, it was awesome. From a player wanting to complete a character, it was terrible.


Just because you weren't having fun reaching for your goals, doesn't mean others werent. It's not the companys fault you didn't have the time to accomplish things as fast as you wanted too.

I can't name many people who enjoyed having a long respawn notorious monster be outclaimed from under them. Nor do I know of anyone who enjoyed having to kill a monster over a hundred times to see a drop.

And in a way, yes, the company could have stepped up and helped relieve these monsters in some way. I am a big fan of the pop system. But even then, a shorter respawn timer would have sufficed as well. Or a higher drop rate.


What you wanted was to complete an ultimate weapon in a week, with just yourself and another person.

Couldn't be any farther from the truth.

What I wanted was an ability to continuously put effort into a goal and eventually reach it. I despise luck and prefer hard work. This is why I am such a fan of Magians. I can log on whenever, work on it some, and then log out when I need to. Every monster I kill for the trial will count towards the trial, guaranteed. Each monster is one step closer to completing and I enjoy slaying monsters for a better weapon. Whether this process takes a day, a week, or a month, I'm satisfied because I know I'm progressing.



FFXI, imo, thats not how it should work.

You are entitled to your opinion.


There are plenty of mmos for people who like finishing things quick and like having the best stuff handed to them. FFIX is not a solo player game and the best should always come from time, focus, dedication. Considering its a video game, it's hardley work.

I like FFXI because of its world and its storylines. I like FFXI because I can use a controller to play it. I like FFXI because I can communicate with people all over the world and learn new languages.

While I realize it is a MMO and we therefore cannot divorce the multiplayer aspect, I think it's fair to realize that not everyone will have synced time schedules, dedication, or interest.

I know that I personally prefer to solo because I hate asking other people to give up their fun time to help me out. I don't like bothering people. Thankfully Abyssea has been very reward friendly which means I can ask for one item and give the rest to my friends who help me out.

Just because someone wants to solo, or just because someone completes something relatively quick does not mean that person lacks time, focus, or dedication. There is nothing wrong with enjoying a video game. For some of us this means completing things quick. For others, this means spending a copious amount of energy and time. Some people wish to challenge themselves with solo while others wish to not burden their friends. And some people want to do everything in small or large groups. There are players who want access to all content of the game and others who want to prove themselves as more dedicated.

I will end on this note. FFXI use to be like a job because of the hours of the monsters and the duration of the events. Add insult to injury by adding low drop rates to the events which required more repetitions. To add icing on the cake we sprinkle in some competition. Long hours and timed hours were the problem. I think Abyssea has addressed these issues quite nicely.

[Carth]

Just because someone wants to solo, or just because someone completes something relatively quick does not mean that person lacks time, focus, or dedication. There is nothing wrong with enjoying a video game. For some of us this means completing things quick. For others, this means spending a copious amount of energy and time. Some people wish to challenge themselves with solo while others wish to not burden their friends. And some people want to do everything in small or large groups. There are players who want access to all content of the game and others who want to prove themselves as more dedicated.
Finally, someone with some sense in this thread.

[Akujima]

...From a roleplaying perspective, it was awesome. From a player wanting to complete a character, it was terrible.

You do realize this is a role-playing game right?


And in a way, yes, the company could have stepped up and helped relieve these monsters in some way. I am a big fan of the pop system. But even then, a shorter respawn timer would have sufficed as well. Or a higher drop rate.

Yes they could have added multiple items per NM and increased the drop rates a little as well as the respawn timer. But instead they created Abyssea and gave themselves more work because all that old content has now become obsolete to players wanting to "complete a character"

Now they created these forums for us to come up with idea's (apparently) on how to fix all that old content, so we can do the work for them.

Instead of what they should have done, which is create a new expansion altogether and fix current issues with the game, as opposed to just sweeping them under the rug.


What I wanted was an ability to continuously put effort into a goal and eventually reach it. I despise luck and prefer hard work. This is why I am such a fan of Magians. I can log on whenever, work on it some, and then log out when I need to. Every monster I kill for the trial will count towards the trial, guaranteed. Each monster is one step closer to completing and I enjoy slaying monsters for a better weapon. Whether this process takes a day, a week, or a month, I'm satisfied because I know I'm progressing.

So what I see here, is that you're not OK with waking up at 3 AM to go to work, but you are OK with doing repetitive simple tasks all day long at work.

The whole idea of past NM's and the items they dropped was to /check someone and say "Oh wow that guy/girl got lucky with that drop". And that's why some of those items were pretty awesome in stats and/or looks. What started happening, is that people complained that they couldn't get their hands on such and such an item, and wanted uber items for themselves, without the "luck" factor.

The problem is, people like this opt for absolutely EVERYTHING being changed and having ZERO "luck" in the game, when in reality these things CAN coexist. You CAN have NM's that are based on luck, that give equally good and different gear, than the ones based on pure progression.

Actually that was already there. The CoP rings were the best in the game, and all you had to do was finish CoP to get one. The ZM earrings were pretty good actually, all you had to do was finish ZM. There's a laundry list of items that were on par with luck NM drops, that came from progression based scenarios. The problem is, they simply didn't add more of the progression based items.


I will end on this note. FFXI use to be like a job because of the hours of the monsters and the duration of the events. Add insult to injury by adding low drop rates to the events which required more repetitions. To add icing on the cake we sprinkle in some competition. Long hours and timed hours were the problem. I think Abyssea has addressed these issues quite nicely.

Like I said above. Instead of sweeping stuff under the rug (like the old content), fix current issues and add more depth and dynamics.

But now we have Abyssea, which actually is just a scaled down model of the past system that you disliked. Now instead you have HOARDS of competition, AND for certain Empyrean weapon, you still have to compete for timed spawns to get Key Items. Not to mention you are in an area with a time LIMIT to boot!

So waiting to claim Gukumatz AS A SOLO/DUO for a Sobek pop, and then not being able to claim because of massive amounts of LS competition, having to be booted out of Abyssea or go use up more stones, more time, run back and forth re-get buffs, atma, etc, etc... How is that LESS annoying?

Anyways... I used to like Abyssea myself, but then once I got to Shinryu in less than 2 weeks after Hero's came out, I saw the real truth behind it.

[Meyi]

You do realize this is a role-playing game right?

Yes I do, but it's not a single player role-playing game. It's a game that has no pause button. People generally play to accomplish some goal. When the environment inhibits these goals from being attempted, that's when players feel frustration.



Yes they could have added multiple items per NM and increased the drop rates a little as well as the respawn timer. But instead they created Abyssea and gave themselves more work because all that old content has now become obsolete to players wanting to "complete a character"

Now they created these forums for us to come up with idea's (apparently) on how to fix all that old content, so we can do the work for them.

Instead of what they should have done, which is create a new expansion altogether and fix current issues with the game, as opposed to just sweeping them under the rug.

Allow me to suggest reading through these forums some more. There are many suggestions posted by fellow players that have been addressed by Square Enix. It seems the most common issue is lack of resources on the developers' behalf. Not that they don't want to, just that they don't have the funds or manpower.




So what I see here, is that you're not ok with waking up at 3 AM to go to work, but you are ok with doing repetitive simple tasks all day long at work.

... What...? I never said anything about work. I was talking about waking myself up, out of a sound sleep, to get on a video game to help kill a monster and then go back to bed for school. Work = money, and money is necessary to live. Video games aren't. If I had to wake up at 3 AM for a job I would.

That sentence is utterly baffling.


The whole idea of past NM's and the items they dropped was to /check someone and say "Oh wow that guy/girl got lucky with that drop". And that's why some of those items were pretty awesome in stats and/or looks. What started happening, is that people complained that they couldn't get their hands on such and such an item, and wanted uber items for themselves, without the "luck" factor.

The problem is, people like this opt for absolutely EVERYTHING being changed and having ZERO "luck" in the game, when in reality these things CAN coexist. You CAN have NM's that are based on luck, that give equally good and different gear, than the ones based on pure progression.

Sounds like Abyssea monsters to me. You can proc yellow !! for higher seal/gem drop, but then again, you may only end up with one seal/gem. Or, even without yellow !!, you can luck out and get decent seal/gem drop without yellow proc.

If there were armors with equal stats that were luck based and progression based (perhaps different .dats), then I wouldn't mind one bit. I don't care if people want to play with luck; it's their game too and they're free to play how they want. However, I also enjoy progression and would be disappointed if the hard work progression item was inferior to the luck item.



But now we have Abyssea, which actually is just a scaled down model of the past system that you disliked. Now instead you have HOARDS of competition, AND for certain Empyrean weapon, you still have to compete for timed spawns to get Key Items. Not to mention you are in an area with a time LIMIT to boot!

So waiting to claim Gukumatz AS A SOLO/DUO for a Sobek pop, and then not being able to claim because of massive amounts of LS competition, having to be booted out of Abyssea or go use up more stones, more time, run back and forth re-get buffs, atma, etc, etc... How is that LESS annoying?

Anyways... I used to like Abyssea myself, but then once I got to Shinryu in less than 2 weeks after Hero's came out, I saw the real truth behind it.

I think competition now is the best it's ever been. The numbers are on par with the past, but, people are more willing to cooperate now. We take turns popping monsters or we team up to help each other out. And this happens at Sobek, too. While my linkshell was farming Sobek for all of our +2 pants, we would invite people there for the emp. weapon skins and let them take them.

I admit that it's not any less annoying. I'm frustrated by the hordes of players at +2 NMs. Luckily for me I have a new linkshell that's very supportive. When I'm frustrated they'll help me take my mind off of my monster by asking me to come help them with seals. And when we're finished with their seals, we'll go back to my monster and try again. And I must add that I don't enjoy having to leave the zone/get more stones/rebuff either. But, it's more enjoyable to have a respawn timer of 15 minutes than 21~24 hours.

Abyssea is not perfect. It's just an event were previous issues have been somewhat corrected.

[Akujima]

Abyssea is not perfect. It's just an event were previous issues have been somewhat corrected.

I read your whole post (saying this because I've been accused before of just skimming over others posts), the whole waking up for work analogy just means this: We do simple repetitive tasks at work all day, and Magian trials as well as Abyssea farming just seems like work for some people, but I guess you're not one of them.

Anyways, I'm not trying to ridicule anyone for liking Abyssea. All I'm asking for is a difficulty increase and dynamic depth to battle tactics and strategies. But IMO they are making the game a little TOO easy, and a little TOO simple. "Farming" seals was not my idea of endgame content.

If the battles were actually difficult and made me use my brain in order to defeat the enemy, then yea I'd still be playing. Pre-Endgame 75, even doing an EXP PT you had to think of tactics and strategies depending on where your PT camped at, and what jobs you had.

You know what pissed me off? The counter for Utsusemi. And it all happened because whiney players who subbed /NIN (It wasn't even their MAIN job for crying out loud) complained that "Boohoo, counting shadows is so annoying!"

NIN pre-endgame 75 was a very, very FUN job. You had to focus and time your nukes and enfeeble ninjutsu correctly. You had to WATCH your enemy carefully to determine when you would cast your next Utsusemi. Timing was key. It was FREAKEN fun to count those shadows, and "Pro Ninja's" were the ones who could do that, and at the same time keep hate, WS, SC and MB.

But overnight, as soon as the shadow counter was added, NIN went from being a cool IN DEPTH DYNAMIC JOB, to being a cakewalk @$$ wipe job, and stole all the fun out it.

The example given of a NIN pre-endgame 75, is EXACTLY what I'm talking about in regards to "IN DEPTH, DYNAMIC, STRATEGIC, GAMEPLAY"

God Dang!!! my posts are so good.

(yea yea, lots of caps because I really feel strongly about this topic)

[Bhujerba]

. It was FREAKEN fun to count those shadows... :O
fun is subjective... :|
plus nothing much really changed, going from watching chat log now you watch buff icon instead, the whole timing thing and strategy still remained almost exactly :O , this what I love about the job (timing shadows and/or abilities around it, keep me busy constantly) and what I fell playing nin now,before and ever!

you just are over thinking it! snap out of it now! *poke*

[Akujima]

fun is subjective...

Fun is objective　too! So... I object!

Actually my chat log scrolled up and　I had to remember how many shadows I had, due to other things going on in the battle. But I'm still trying to make a point about dynamic game play. Back in the day, Trick Attack actually had a use. But now people don't really care if they're trick attacked, because most all melee can tank in Abyss without shadows or evasion gear or whatnot.

Anyhow... This is also a test of my sig, wanting to see if it works heh...

Edit: Guess it doesn't work. How do you get a pic to show up in your sig?...

Edit#2: Figured out the sig thing. Cool.

[Karbuncle]

Fun is objective　too! So... I object!

Actually my chat log scrolled up and　I had to remember how many shadows I had, due to other things going on in the battle. But I'm still trying to make a point about dynamic game play. Back in the day, Trick Attack actually had a use. But now people don't really care if they're trick attacked, because most all melee can tank in Abyss without shadows or evasion gear or whatnot.

Anyhow... This is also a test of my sig, wanting to see if it works heh...

Edit: Guess it doesn't work. How do you get a pic to show up in your sig?...

Edit#2: Figured out the sig thing. Cool.

This is all Nostalgia vision and false.

Ninja has barely changed at all. The only thing thats different about the job is you have more shadows. You're still an Evasion tank, you still need to keep track of shadows (Either by log or by Icon), and Timing is still key on a lot of fights. Ninjas have great Evasion, But they're about 60 Evasion behind THF, so they still have to eye their shadows on a lot of Enemies, that hasn't changed.

Beyond that, You can still Debuff a mob with Ninjutsu in Abyssea...? That hasn't changed either. Trick Attack was frankly just as "useful" then as it is now. Only now NIN's are able to get hate easier through DD. If your complaint is that TA is "Useless" because you don't need the Enmity, your Complaint is NIN is too powerful through damage. "Trick Attack" isn't 'not wanted' because of melee damage blah blah blah, Trick Attack just isn't NEEDED. its not a WANT, its a need. Right now, especially for jobs like NIN, the Added Enmity is simply not required. it can help early in a fight or after a Hate reset.

Thats funny though, Trick Attack is still useful in the exact way you want, strategically, Its useful after an Enemy uses Hate reset. It just became an ever more strategic hate tool, adding depth to a fight, but you failed to mention that... You're overlooking exactly what you want, Strategy and in-depth fights.

I Won't go into how much i hate a lot of THF Abilities for being "Party onry", So I'll try to focus away from the Trick Attack Subject more, Sorry :X

Going form here on, I don't know what quite else to say. If you guys are so disappointed with how this game is turning out, take Anewies initiative and just quit already. If the game is truly so unfun to you that you can't even see how it still has almost everything you want because you're blinded by nostalgia and animosity, you simply need to deactivate your account.

The Representatives on this website, while not responding to every single (Really TERRIBLE) ideas are in fact looking through and commenting on decent ideas. As i said before, They have limited time and resources. This is likely not their fault. In a company, you obey who is above you, or you lose your job. I'm sure if they had their way there would be much more time/staff devoted to FFXI.

I mean, I don't complain my "Personal Beast pet" idea has never got dev attention, even though its gotten mostly positive responses. I simply feel its either "Horrible idea" or "Too unrealistic". I've come to terms with that, and i certainly don't think that we should start a complaint thread every time we see a thread without a Crown icon by it.

Edit: Throwing Sucks. (you know you laughed)

[HFX7686]

I think that you are taking this game, and your "fun", far too seriously. Instead of worrying about the fun of all people, worry about the fun of yourselves and your friends.

If it comes to a point where you're bored and tired of the game you realise you don't have to keep playing right?

[Bulrogg]

I used to jokingly ask if I had a case against SE because I had played Ninja so long, I could no longer count past four.



You know what pissed me off? The counter for Utsusemi. And it all happened because whiney players who subbed /NIN (It wasn't even their MAIN job for crying out loud) complained that "Boohoo, counting shadows is so annoying!"

NIN pre-endgame 75 was a very, very FUN job. You had to focus and time your nukes and enfeeble ninjutsu correctly. You had to WATCH your enemy carefully to determine when you would cast your next Utsusemi. Timing was key. It was FREAKEN fun to count those shadows, and "Pro Ninja's" were the ones who could do that, and at the same time keep hate, WS, SC and MB.

But overnight, as soon as the shadow counter was added, NIN went from being a cool IN DEPTH DYNAMIC JOB, to being a cakewalk @$$ wipe job, and stole all the fun out it.


I couldn't agree more. I very much enjoyed playing Ninja before then. Since then Ninja has become just another 'Bandwagon' job. I'll be happy when SE unintentionally adjusts something and then [Insert Job Here] becomes the next 'bandwagon' job and everyone jumps ship.

[Karbuncle]

How does a job becoming a bandwagon effect how you play the job in any way shape or form?

read my post above you. Ninja is as in depth as it was back then. You still get AoE nukes removing your shadows, You still have to count shadows to some extent (Text or Icon), You still can debuff the mob, you still need to keep hate on the Enemy, You still need to be careful on some mobs (Bennu perhaps? Dread Wind > You're face), etc.

The game as a whole is only simpler due to Atmas, but the job itself as a core remains in tact. All the things you described i still do when i play NIN. I still debuff, watch shadows, etc. I Rarely use the icon cause the font sucks and i can barely read it on half the backgrounds.

We're moving out of Abyssea soon, You'll be going back to wearing Earth Staff and subbing DRK in Arhat's, losing hate, being useless, and getting 1 shotted soon enough. Then You'll be happy?

Cause it really sounds like you want the old days of 2007~ back when NIN was back-seat to PLD/NIN on almost all fights. Why would you purposefully want your job to backseat?

[Kingofgeeks]

there's nothing SE can do about the diminishing numbers of this game... its old, and there's not really much they can do. Hell, with the stupid PS2 limitation thing they can't even add more DAT files. I, personally, think its pathetic that they used Maws to enter abyssea instead of giving us something new to look at.

I think the problem with a lot of things in this forum is that they're expecting too much out of SE. People complained for years about the difficulty of CoP missions, hard to find parties, and the lack of soloability. The game is getting old, and regardless of how poorly its doing, ffxi is competing with ffxiv.

It is my belief that SE lifted the level cap as a final bang on this game. They pulled out all the stops and gave us more to sink our teeth into. The moment FFXIV picks up speed (if it ever does) and becomes more popular, that's when ffxi will start to fade.

I am thankful that they made this game easier for casual players to partake on. Although i hate it, i'm glad they gave us the ability to be a complete n00b at level 90, because in a lot of situations, the game does turn into a game of skill over time put in (i am fully aware of the vastness of scenarios where this statement is not true).

but seriously, you do have a point. Give us a few more DAT files so we can change our Dragon's color, its fun and it doesn't mess up the balance of anything. Do more things like this and it will keep people happy.

[RaenRyong]

But overnight, as soon as the shadow counter was added, NIN went from being a cool IN DEPTH DYNAMIC JOB, to being a cakewalk @$$ wipe job, and stole all the fun out it.

... counting to 4 is hard? SE just rightfully made something that was not challenging but inconvenient far more convenient. Likewise what they did for exp.

[wish12oz]

So......... the OP thinks because SE is adding useful content, like new BCNMs, and a new NM system (voidwalker) instead of stuff like letting you change your wyverns color, and since people can do things in small groups with their friends instead of requiring large stupid LS's that mainly work to acquire gear for the leaders, and because we now have 'official forums', FFXI is in decline and is going to not be fun anymore?

I have to disagree with you, yet again, big surprise. FFXI is getting better. The only thing that could ruin it at this point is if SE started listening to 99% of the dumb ideas proposed on these forums.

[Leonlionheart]

I've said this somewhere before, but...

SE is a corporation, and as such they like to make money. This is pretty similar to, well, the rest of humanity.

There are a handful of players that are classified as "Hardcore," or players that can play for long periods of time most of the week.

How many people used to have top notch gear, Adaberk, Relics, even Byakko's haidate (although one of the most popular pieces of high end gear in the game) were used by less than 50% of the player base, because probably 75% of players were casual. You talk to a lot of people who tried out the game and the reason they didn't like it was because it was too time consuming.

How SE, and the rest of the gaming universe, is handling the 'casual gamer' situation is by making games more casual. Believe it or not, they are actually making MORE money because more people can only play for 1~3 hours 2~3 times a week. Casual players in FFXI can now actually accomplish something beyond the rare occurrence of having the patience to get a job to 75 and using AH gear at best.

Abyssea, and subsequently all 80+ content as it stands now, actually brought life to a dying game. Before this, content had been completely static. Gear beyond AHables were only SMALL upgrades, or they brought out gear that wasn't better at all (EVOLITH).

Point is, it's more profitable to cater to the casual gamer.

[Glamdring]

Aku, I do agree with you on most points. However, there is difficult content out there, the problem is getting anyone to join you on it. I expect the new KCNMs might also address some of your concerns in that regard. In addition, while we talk about how easy Abyssea is now, we are forgetting what it was like when we 1st started working on it; XP was always easy there, but getting the gear, drops, Atma, Lunar Abyssites and the like were hard; once you have the upgraded gear and 3 Atma and the abyssites that increase Cruor Buff efficiency the zones do get easy. Personally, while I have 3 Atma I don't have the top ones except Voracious Violet, Merciless Matriarch and all the Caturae and Iron Giant ones, and only 2-3 AF3+1 pieces on bst, brd, thf and dnc so soloing is still a bit of a challenge for me.

They need to increase the attractiveness of non-Abyssea end-game activities, no question. They also need to address many of the other ideas brought up in the forums. They can mostly ignore all the job ability post threads, they all seem to be requests to make whichever job more powerful at the expense of all the others, destroying any semblance of balance. Also, some are simply frivolous, so not really for everyday play; but they could fit within the confines of one of their events (which I personally never participate in). Some, like the wyvern color one you referenced, I could care less about, except that I think it is much more important to address content issues, like jobs being made irrelevant under current content; I would be incensed if someone could make their wyvern red but Cor still couldn't get a party invite as an example.

Players need to really think out and develop their proposals in here. A generic statement like "give X job dual-wield" is not of any help to the player base or the developers. You need to make a case addressing game balance, job mechanics, why we need to deviate from the current build, why getting it from SJ is inadequate, etc. The best example is the Gyms of Vanadiel proposal by Kingfury, as it clearly shows the type of attention to detail that a developer needs to address when thinking about implementation. When there is that kind of detail players can actually address specific concerns instead of only saying yes or no to the whole shooting match.

We also need to have more aggressive moderators to kill the troll posts so that good ideas are not simply overlooked by having to wade through all the trash. Enough about getting rid of the PS2, they obviously have no intention of EVER doing so. Abyssea entry level, one thread would do. Your relic is no longer godly, again, 1 thread could take care of that. How am I going to get my blackbelt now, one place where I can tell you to "work for it just like anything else in life" will do.

Oh, and give the developers a chance people. Making new content or changes to the game is not a simple process, especially the way code interracts in object oriented programing. They could add a tremendous amount of content, if they didn't care that the platforms were crashed 90% of the time. Point is, they do care. In fact, they care more than the players do about keeping the game viable for all players, since if they don't they are looking for work tomorrow. To be sure, many things are poorly addressed, they've known pup AI has been broken for years and still haven't announced any intention of repair, defensive skill-up rates are attrocious, etc. and whatever else your favorite long-term gripe is; it wouldn't kill anyone on the developers side to actually say what steps they are taking to address those concerns, even if the answer is "nothing" that would be an answer. Playerbase, on the other hand, has to realize that a new proposal by us needs time to be developed-and tested; patience is a virtue, unfortunately it appears not to be a virtue of most of the playerbase.

[Olor]

How SE, and the rest of the gaming universe, is handling the 'casual gamer' situation is by making games more casual. Believe it or not, they are actually making MORE money because more people can only play for 1~3 hours 2~3 times a week. Casual players in FFXI can now actually accomplish something beyond the rare occurrence of having the patience to get a job to 75 and using AH gear at best.


Yeah, I really don't like the attitude that is like "oh well if you don't have the time to play 30+ hours a week you don't deserve to accomplish anything in the game" - or making out like people who have less time are automagically less skilled than other players.

If someone wants to play 30+ hours a week that is fine as long as they don't expect the developers to make the content more tedious and time consuming to keep them busy.

Honestly I'm losing interest in XI right now because at lvl 66 progression is so slow (I haven't really got any way into Abyssea and there are not really any exp parties out there, especially for a BST). I log on and kill a few things, look at the exp bar, say "f*ck it" and log off.

Am I a bad player? No. But I am a busy person, and at any one time I usually have a few leisure activities I would like to pursue. Like it or not, in order for XI to be enjoyable, I need to feel like I can make progress in the time I have. I've been playing Tactics Ogre cause at least I can play a short while and actually feel like I did something.

I was having a great time until about the time I hit 60. Why? Because I could log in at lunch time, play for an hour and maybe finish off a level. Now, I could go home in the evening and spend 4 hours playing and if I was lucky get 1 or 2 lousy levels after all those hours of mind-numbing grinding.

I haven't logged in for more than a couple hours since easter- and then I was working on a new job (BLU). I haven't really played BST for weeks.

It is sort of sad. But really, I just have better things to do than spend all night waiting for a ding.

[Anewie]

I've been told that a lot, unfortunately.

The first post (which was the only post I was responding to), first talked about Dragoons and different colored wyverns, then about the forums and SE not listening to its players, to Abyssea is easy, to wanting the game to be fun again. I've yet to find "choice and variety" in the first post.



First I would like to point out that you are making a lot of poor assumptions about me. Never once did I expect things to ever be handed to me. Never once did I expect end game at 75 to be completed with a duo.

Because I highly disagreed with End game shells and their rules, and because I found the events rather depressing and boring rather than enjoyable, I did not do the events. I never complained how people who did these events got the items because they put forth the effort, and therefore, they deserved the gear. That's great for them. But such an event was not an event for me. Instead I did other things in the game that I found enjoyable because it's that, a game.

I'm going to break down the previous quote and respond to it.




The reason the game felt like a job was because it required players to log in at odd hours for a desired item because the monster popped at those hours. I remember setting my alarm to wake up at 3 in the morning to help a friend get her YinYang Robe. After that I realized no video game is worth losing sleep over. Unfortunately Shikigami popped every 21 hours and in order to not lose the Time of Death, someone would at least have to go watch for it. Eventually yes, it would come back into North American time, but, when it did, the Time of Death would again be unknown.

The same applied to Land Kings.

So yes, while the game itself did not require anyone to play at odd hours -- because nothing in the game is a necessity -- the monsters did have terrible hours. That was a problem with the game itself, not the players. And while I appreciate the attempt to make the world alive and interlinking the timezones together by making monsters pop throughout the day, I feel it caused more harm than good. From a roleplaying perspective, it was awesome. From a player wanting to complete a character, it was terrible.



I can't name many people who enjoyed having a long respawn notorious monster be outclaimed from under them. Nor do I know of anyone who enjoyed having to kill a monster over a hundred times to see a drop.

And in a way, yes, the company could have stepped up and helped relieve these monsters in some way. I am a big fan of the pop system. But even then, a shorter respawn timer would have sufficed as well. Or a higher drop rate.



Couldn't be any farther from the truth.

What I wanted was an ability to continuously put effort into a goal and eventually reach it. I despise luck and prefer hard work. This is why I am such a fan of Magians. I can log on whenever, work on it some, and then log out when I need to. Every monster I kill for the trial will count towards the trial, guaranteed. Each monster is one step closer to completing and I enjoy slaying monsters for a better weapon. Whether this process takes a day, a week, or a month, I'm satisfied because I know I'm progressing.




You are entitled to your opinion.



I like FFXI because of its world and its storylines. I like FFXI because I can use a controller to play it. I like FFXI because I can communicate with people all over the world and learn new languages.

While I realize it is a MMO and we therefore cannot divorce the multiplayer aspect, I think it's fair to realize that not everyone will have synced time schedules, dedication, or interest.

I know that I personally prefer to solo because I hate asking other people to give up their fun time to help me out. I don't like bothering people. Thankfully Abyssea has been very reward friendly which means I can ask for one item and give the rest to my friends who help me out.

Just because someone wants to solo, or just because someone completes something relatively quick does not mean that person lacks time, focus, or dedication. There is nothing wrong with enjoying a video game. For some of us this means completing things quick. For others, this means spending a copious amount of energy and time. Some people wish to challenge themselves with solo while others wish to not burden their friends. And some people want to do everything in small or large groups. There are players who want access to all content of the game and others who want to prove themselves as more dedicated.

I will end on this note. FFXI use to be like a job because of the hours of the monsters and the duration of the events. Add insult to injury by adding low drop rates to the events which required more repetitions. To add icing on the cake we sprinkle in some competition. Long hours and timed hours were the problem. I think Abyssea has addressed these issues quite nicely.

If getting yinyang robe was hard for you, then yeah... old ffxi wasn't for you. Freakin yy robe was stressful to you? Not only is a 50% drop, but the comp wasn't even that bad. You're right though, it not worth loosing sleep over.

Especially since it barely had a window. Almost always popped on the 21 hour mark or 15minutes later..

And seriously? You bringing kings up? Get out.

Heres a question, if kings were such a problem, why didn't you do einherjar or ks99? That was too hard for you? Wwas going to bed and getting a new tod later on in the week such a difficult thing for shikigami? Or joining an einherjar LS? Or you don't like playing in groups? I'm sorry, idc how many people "like"d your post.

I have never, not in all the time shikigami weapon has been in game, heard someone complain about the window. And stop bandwagoning on kings. Fact check, ok? You didn't have to do kings to get king gear. Einherjar was amazing, offered gear kings didnt and then some. Einherjar just lacked dring/ridill, but it more than made up for it. I'm guessing you probably never done einherjar.

[Olor]

The funny thing is, when I am making progress at a good pace, I am likely to play longer because I feel like I am getting somewhere - but when progress is slow, I play less because it is boring.

[Olor]

If getting yinyang robe was hard for you, then yeah... old ffxi wasn't for you.

Yeah, and clearly it wasn't for most people since the population was in freefall before the developers made content that wasn't only accessible and fun for less than 20% of the playerbase.

Whether you like it or not, companies can't get away with charging the majority of players for content only a minority of players can enjoy. That's why Abyssea exists - because the model where 100% of the playerbase paid for content that only 10-20% could use/access/wear/whatever was leading down the road to failure.

[Anewie]

The funny thing is, when I am making progress at a good pace, I am likely to play longer because I feel like I am getting somewhere - but when progress is slow, I play less because it is boring.

I agree. As I said, I'm not looking down on casuals. Im looking down on the whiners and people who don't try anyway. Complaining about shikigamni weapon? I saw someone else complaining aboiut Charydbis in another thread.. that mob has a 100% drop..They dropped the best gear at a time. They should be rare spawns... They werent botted more than likely, and comparing them to kings is stupid.

Nobody has the right to complain about kings. Nobody. Ridill was useless since gaxe update and a dring did not make or break a pld. Both epeen pieces. Black belt was easily attainable vbia ks99 and most good einherjar shells shelled out odin kills every 2 weeks.

[Anewie]

Yeah, and clearly it wasn't for most people since the population was in freefall before the developers made content that wasn't only accessible and fun for less than 20% of the playerbase.
Whether you like it or not, companies can't get away with charging the majority of players for content only a minority of players can enjoy. That's why Abyssea exists - because the model where 100% of the playerbase paid for content that only 10-20% could use/access/wear/whatever was leading down the road to failure.

Are you saying the population in FFXI was in downfall because of long spawn notorious monsters? I have news for you. That ain't the case.

Many people quit once the announcment of FFXIV(which bombed) and lvl 99. After ffxiv was announced, many people both casual and uncasual started quitting because they figured ffxiv would be a complete mimic of XI. That wasn't the case. I agree with you old endgame wasnt as appealing to you and many others, but that's not at all why the player base was declining. They had alternate methods for the casuals like einherjar and ks99, but they shoulda added more I think. Casuals didn't have exclusive events like the uncasual. They just had events added for them that had alternate means of the gear the uncasual could alrdy attain elsewhere.

You are saying the game was dying because it didn't appeal to casuals and that's not true. It did appeal to casuals, it just didn't offer nearly as much content. If you hadnt notice, abbyssea has been out 6-8months, and the second server merge within a year is incoming. The base is still declining. Abyssea didn't didnt revive the game, it just reconstructed it. The game is more appealing to people who might want to start over or make a new character. The flaw in that is, the game is 9-10 years old. You have a slew of newers MMOs, with better graphics, more money in the devs team that offeres the same casual content. FFXI can't compete with that, using the same thing as something new and fresh.

Doing a 180 on ffxi to try to draw in new players and appeal to people who are only casual, 10 years into the games life, was an extremeley flawed tactic. It would have been great business in the first 2-5 years but this game is old and soon half the server will be gone. You don't totally alienate your long time player base in an attempt to try and get new players back. I'm not sure, that's what they did, I'm just saying, if thats what you are telling yourself they did, that is not a good thing for the life of ffxi. You make it sound like the player is returning and ffxi is more alive than ever. No, the base is continuing to decline at the same rate it was before. Becuase now a lot of more uncasuals are quitting, and you can bet people are not rushing to play FFXI because it appeals so much to casuals now. Sure, ssome, maybe even a lot of people are joining ffxi now. But nothing SE does besides adding content that is very well balanced for both parties, is going to revive the game.

.

[Karbuncle]

Are you saying the population in FFXI was in downfall because of long spawn notorious monsters? I have news for you. That ain't the case.

Many people quit once the announcment of FFXIV(which bombed) and lvl 99. After ffxiv was announced, many people both casual and uncasual started quitting because they figured ffxiv would be a complete mimic of XI. That wasn't the case. I agree with you old endgame wasnt as appealing to you and many others, but that's not at all why the player base was declining. They had alternate methods for the casuals like einherjar and ks99, but they shoulda added more I think. Casuals didn't have exclusive events like the uncasual. They just had events added for them that had alternate means of the gear the uncasual could alrdy attain elsewhere.

You are saying the game was dying because it didn't appeal to casuals and that's not true. It did appeal to casuals, it just didn't offer nearly as much content. If you hadnt notice, abbyssea has been out 6-8months, and the second server merge within a year is incoming. The base base is still declining. Abyssea didn't didnt revive the game, it just reconstructed it.

Except you're just guessing as well, Because you have no facts any more than he has facts other than word of mouth. Before FFXIV was announced, I assure you the game was still losing population.

This game lost a lot of players over time, even back at 75 when Ground Kings were the only way. (Aside from Salvage/etc). There were also the Salvage bans hurting the population tremendously. Even some people not hit by the ban eventually quit due to friends being hit.

I don't think he was saying "The game was dying because it didn't appeal to casuals" persay, I think what he's saying is "The game has been dying for a while, not just because of the new era appealing to casuals". I don't really think "Dying" is a good word either, Its on a decline of population (Slowly, its more of a "rollarcoaster"), but the game is in its later years, is what i mean.

Meaning both in the "hard-core" times and even now in the "Casual times", the game loses people because its just getting old, not only because its "appealing more to casuals".

Basically, No matter what you do, a games population will always slowly decline at some point in time, so right now they're trying to salvage who they can and make the game switch from "Hardcore inaccessible content" to "Casual Content that can be enjoyed by all", which is a smart move. Some will quit, but oh well, Some will always quit. At least this way those who remain will actually be able to enjoy the game and access all the content it offers.

[Anewie]

Except you're just guessing as well, Because you have no facts any more than he has facts other than word of mouth. Before FFXIV was announced, I assure you the game was still losing population.

This game lost a lot of players over time, even back at 75 when Ground Kings were the only way. (Aside from Salvage/etc). There were also the Salvage bans hurting the population tremendously. Even some people not hit by the ban eventually quit due to friends being hit.

I don't think he was saying "The game was dying because it didn't appeal to casuals" persay, I think what he's saying is "The game has been dying for a while, not just because of the new era appealing to casuals". I don't really think "Dying" is a good word either, Its on a decline of population (Slowly, its more of a "rollarcoaster"), but the game is in its later years, is what i mean.

Meaning both in the "hard-core" times and even now in the "Casual times", the game loses people because its just getting old, not only because its "appealing more to casuals".

Basically, No matter what you do, a games population will always slowly decline at some point in time, so right now they're trying to salvage who they can and make the game switch from "Hardcore inaccessible content" to "Casual Content that can be enjoyed by all", which is a smart move. Some will quit, but oh well, Some will always quit. At least this way those who remain will actually be able to enjoy the game and access all the content it offers.

"Kings were the only way", Can you explain what they were the only way for? I really don't know what people mean.

When I retired from kings to lead an einherjar LS, I saw more king bodies doing that then camping nidhogg. Kings were/are fun for a time but when you don't have the time anymore, I admit, yes its time to move on. I'm just wondering why you all didn't do einherjar? Really. That statment is not only not true but it sounds rediculous... Kings were not the only way. They hadnt been since 2004.. >.>

[Karbuncle]

"Kings were the only way", Can you explain what they were the only way for? I really don't know what people mean.

When I retired from kings to lead an einherjar LS, I saw more king bodies doing that then camping nidhogg. Kings were/are fun for a time but when you don't have the time anymore, I admit, yes its time to move on. I'm just wondering why you asll didn't do einherjar? Really. That statment is not only not true but it sounds rediculous... Kings were not the only way. They hadnt been since 2004.. >.>


This game lost a lot of players over time, even back at 75 when Ground Kings were the only way. (Aside from Salvage/etc)

I did mention "and salvage/etc", I figured to most people that would mean "including Nyzul, Salvage, Einherjar, General accepted end-game activities". Maybe i was expecting too much of my readers :(, I'm guilty of that. I guess i mentioned ground kings cause thats generally the loudest complaint on both sides. Either "Game sucks cause I cant bot/cockblock Armor from people anymore" or "Games great cause Camping kings is dead". So its generally the "loudest" complaint i here.

Einherjar was great, I won't deny that, But the Abjuration drop rate asbolutely awful outside of Odin. So unless you just wanted E-Body or a select other few decent Abjurations, You still had to do Kings. Especially for items like D.ring, and Black belt items (BB to a lesser extent, there were still KSNMs). I don't think I can put my finger on any ground abjurations outside of Heca Sub that would be worth worrying about in Normal Wing Einherjar though... So i guess thats a little moot.

Point being, Explanations above aside, The game has been in a steady decline since its peak of about 500,000 Subscribers some odd years ago, Right now they seem to be realizing what everyone already knows, people will complain/cry/whine/quit no matter what they do. So they're switching the game toward "Casual party friendly content anyone can enjoy" and away from the old ways, Which is a good thing in the end. Sure as i said, people will quit, but the game will be better off for those of us who enjoy it how it is and what its becoming.

No one Can blame you for quitting, when a game doesn't appeal to you anymore, Its the logical conclusion. however, If you really are quitting, I don't see why you put yourself through the extra stress of posting/reading these forums when they won't matter to you anymore. :X It seems like unnecessary stress.

[Anewie]

I did mention "and salvage/etc", I figured to most people that would mean "including Nyzul, Salvage, Einherjar, General accepted end-game activities". Maybe i was expecting too much of my readers :(, I'm guilty of that. I guess i mentioned ground kings cause thats generally the loudest complaint on both sides. Either "Game sucks cause I cant bot/cockblock Armor from people anymore" or "Games great cause Camping kings is dead". So its generally the "loudest" complaint i here.

Einherjar was great, I won't deny that, But the Abjuration drop rate asbolutely awful outside of Odin. So unless you just wanted E-Body or a select other few decent Abjurations, You still had to do Kings. Especially for items like D.ring, and Black belt items (BB to a lesser extent, there were still KSNMs). I don't think I can put my finger on any ground abjurations outside of Heca Sub that would be worth worrying about in Normal Wing Einherjar though... So i guess thats a little moot.

Point being, Explanations above aside, The game has been in a steady decline since its peak of about 500,000 Subscribers some odd years ago, Right now they seem to be realizing what everyone already knows, people will complain/cry/whine/quit no matter what they do. So they're switching the game toward "Casual party friendly content anyone can enjoy" and away from the old ways, Which is a good thing in the end. Sure as i said, people will quit, but the game will be better off for those of us who enjoy it how it is and what its becoming.

No one Can blame you for quitting, when a game doesn't appeal to you anymore, Its the logical conclusion. however, If you really are quitting, I don't see why you put yourself through the extra stress of posting/reading these forums when they won't matter to you anymore. :X It seems like unnecessary stress.

Well, you see. I guess thats the difference between you me as players and people.

Video games and video game forums don't stress me out. If a video game or a forum stresses you out, that's pretty extreme. I have fun in video games or i quit. I do things that appeal to me. I don't sit around crying or complaining about things to fit my interests only and welcome the next guy getting his stuff and moving along.

[Karbuncle]

Well, you see. I guess thats the difference between you me as players and people.

Video games and video game forums don't stress me out. If a video game or a forum stresses you out, that's pretty extreme. I have fun in video games or i quit. I do things that appeal to me. I don't sit around crying or complaining about things to fit my interests only and welcome the next guy getting his stuff and moving along.

What? No, forums generally don't stress me out, Don't get me wrong, Everyone gets worked up sometimes however, its natural. you cannot say you've never been emotionally effect by something done in game, or on a forum. Because while its print, We're all real live people behind here.


But, Generally when i find someone on a board arguing with people over things, Especially when they seem to have an attitude over the entire thing, or are "Snappy" I assume they seem to be stressed over it. Or at the very least upset, which is usually a result from stress.

Also, You say you don't sit around crying/complaining about things to fit your interest, When , at least by my definition, arguing with people over why the game currently sucks or no longer appeals to you seems complainy to me :|. If i quit I think the first thing i'd want to do is move on with my life, not spend my days on a forum dedicated to said game. So i guess you're right, Thats the difference between me and you as a player and person.

Plus, I'm not sure if you're doing it on purpose, but why do you type like i didn't say:



No one Can blame you for quitting, when a game doesn't appeal to you anymore, Its the logical conclusion.

I.E if the games not fun its okay to quit. Where your entire response seems to be geared toward you think I'm saying "Why did you quit? you should stay and complain on the forums more". When I'm not saying that at all, like in any way what so ever.

Again, Of course its completely logical to quite a game if you no longer enjoy it, thats incredibly logical and 1000 times better then the people who constantly complain how terrible the game is yet continue to play.

However, That doesn't seem to be whats going on here. you quit the game, yet you linger on these forums still. If you're interested in the development of this game simply because you may return one day, Thats understandable, but if you've planned on quitting for good, My original question applies still. Why bother arguing with people on the internet about a game you no longer play/enjoy/participate in?

Edit: I neglected to mention, You are of course entitled to your opinion, and you're entitled to tell people why you left/quit. but you've succeeded in doing that for us, I Only ask why, after explaining to use why you quit, and why you feel the game no longer appeals to you, do you care what anyone on this game thinks anymore?

[Anewie]

What? No, forums generally don't stress me out, Don't get me wrong, Everyone gets worked up sometimes however, its natural. you cannot say you've never been emotionally effect by something done in game, or on a forum. Because while its print, We're all real live people behind here.


But, Generally when i find someone on a board arguing with people over things, Especially when they seem to have an attitude over the entire thing, or are "Snappy" I assume they seem to be stressed over it. Or at the very least upset, which is usually a result from stress.

Also, You say you don't sit around crying/complaining about things to fit your interest, When , at least by my definition, arguing with people over why the game currently sucks or no longer appeals to you seems complainy to me :|. If i quit I think the first thing i'd want to do is move on with my life, not spend my days on a forum dedicated to said game. So i guess you're right, Thats the difference between me and you as a player and person.

Plus, I'm not sure if you're doing it on purpose, but why do you type like i didn't say:



I.E if the games not fun its okay to quit. Where your entire response seems to be geared toward you think I'm saying "Why did you quit? you should stay and complain on the forums more". When I'm not saying that at all, like in any way what so ever.

Again, Of course its completely logical to quite a game if you no longer enjoy it, thats incredibly logical and 1000 times better then the people who constantly complain how terrible the game is yet continue to play.

However, That doesn't seem to be whats going on here. you quit the game, yet you linger on these forums still. If you're interested in the development of this game simply because you may return one day, Thats understandable, but if you've planned on quitting for good, My original question applies still. Why bother arguing with people on the internet about a game you no longer play/enjoy/participate in?

I can go back and reread my posts and there no argument there. Im stating my opinion as regards to things posted. Who exactly am i arguing with? And what about? If you mean me coming back and correcting people stating BS is arguing, well, ok. I stated my opinion and I simply stated a fact in regards to kings.

They hadn't been the only way since 2004, and the player base is still declining. Those are facts. No argument in my posts. My opinions on the player base were stated when I said The heart is gone. That is an opinion. Just because I feel the need or want to correct the constant silly things stated about the past and present state of FFXI, doesn't mean I'm arguing.

An argument would be, myself not agreeing with other peoples opinions on things. I respect you and anyone else on your opinion with the current and past state of the game. However, if someone is going to say something like its a fact, when its not, theres nothing wrong with someone correcting them. Saying kings were the only way to get king gear and abyssea saved or revived the game, those are not opinions. Thats BS.

Maybe abyssea made the game more appealing for a specific person, ok. Even then, kings were not the only way. At least not after 2004. Whos arguing any of this? You? I'm not, lol.

[Olor]

The playerbase is still declining but I see a lot of people (myself included) coming back.

I would have never come back without the lure of Abyssea. My current annoyance would go away if I could just figure out a way to use Abyssea like everyone else (unfortunately it seems to be really hard for newer players to get in on Abyssea - when really they stand to benefit the most).

If this was still the same old game where someone like me could play for a year and a half without even reaching lvl 75, let alone getting any equipment worthwhile... then I would have never even considered coming back. I know I am not alone.

Heh, remembering how long I played for so little reward, puts my current annoyance in perspective. That said, it doesn't make it go away (unfortunately).

[Karbuncle]

I can go back and reread my posts and there no argument there. Im stating my opinion as regards to things posted. Who exactly am i arguing with? And what about? If you mean me coming back and correcting people stating BS is arguing, well, ok. I stated my opinion and I simply stated a fact in regards to kings.

They hadn't been the only way since 2004, and the player base is still declining. Those are facts. No argument in my posts. My opinions on the player base were stated when I said The heart is gone. That is an opinion. Just because I feel the need or want to correct the constant silly things stated about the past and present state of FFXI, doesn't mean I'm arguing.

An argument would be, myself not agreeing with other peoples opinions on things. I respect you and anyone else on your opinion with the current and past state of the game. However, if someone is going to say something like its a fact, when its not, theres nothing wrong with someone correcting them. Saying kings were the only way to get king gear and abyssea saved or revided the game, those are not opinions. Thats BS.

Maybe abyssea saved the game for a specific person, ok. Even then, kings were not the only way. At least not after 2004.


You're arguing with me :) On a side note, Read my Edit. I think you missed it. Plus, I thought i was the one arguing that The player base has been Declining since day 1? if we're both on the same side of the argument... then... wat?

Also, While i agree that "Stating things as fact", I remember this entire thing began because you stated your opinion that people left because of FFXIV as fact. Or at least it felt you said it with the same inflection as the guy you quoted who said they left because of kings.

The only fact either of us know is the game has been gaining and losing people since day one. Everything else is guess work. We don't know why they quit (FFXIV? or Maybe Abyssea?).

Then again You could have been purposefully making an example of how illogical it is to claim something so wild, In which case this is a misunderstanding. Either way, It does kind of feel like your posts seem to be gradually getting more... angry? I can't explain it, your inflections feel a bit different. I'm reading a bit more aggressiveness behind them.

Don't get all upset over this conversation :O its unnecessary stress!

[Anewie]

You're arguing with me :) On a side note, Read my Edit. I think you missed it. Plus, I thought i was the one arguing that The player base has been Declining since day 1? if we're both on the same side of the argument... then... wat?

Also, While i agree that "Stating things as fact", I remember this entire thing began because you stated your opinion that people left because of FFXIV as fact. Or at least it felt you said it with the same inflection as the guy you quoted who said they left because of kings.

The only fact either of us know is the game has been gaining and losing people since day one. Everything else is guess work. We don't know why they quit (FFXIV? or Maybe Abyssea?).

Then again You could have been purposefully making an example of how illogical it is to claim something so wild, In which case this is a misunderstanding. Either way, It does kind of feel like your posts seem to be gradually getting more... angry? I can't explain it, your inflections feel a bit different. I'm reading a bit more aggressiveness behind them.

Don't get all upset over this conversation :O its unnecessary stress!

Lolz, Okay. I'm not arguing with you. Moving on. Although I can't prove it as fact, im willing to bet a large portion of the mass quittings, not banning, happened right before ffxiv. I knew so many people who were like "FFXIV coming out. dead game is dead. Moving to rabanastra next week!" etc etc. The player base had always been in decline but I personally knew quite a few people who were in the mind set FFXI would be replaced by XIV and that was why they were quitting, then and there. Anyone who says the game is seeing a signifcant number of reactivations via abyssea. Needs a reality check. The second server merge in less than a year with abyssea related content taking a large portion of that time up, speaks for itself. Does it say abyssea killed FFXI? Course not. But it did anything but revive it. In fact, it more than likely caused more quittings. I'm just going by the server merge announcements. If the player base wasn't continuing to fall fast, why would they need a 2nd server merge so soon?
It's possible theyre just trying to reduce costs more but then you have an inflation issue.

Only time will tell if it keeps the player base playing longer and more dedicatedly than the original 75 endgame. Soon, ffxiv will be fixed and running accordingly, How many can bet people will bounce once that happens? I guess we'll see.

[Karbuncle]

Lolz, Okay. I'm not arguing with you. Moving on. Although I can't prove it as fact, im willing to bet a large portion of the mass quittings, not banning, happened right before ffxiv. I knew so many people who were like "FFXIV coming out. dead game is dead. Moving to rabanastra next week!" etc etc. The player base had always been in decline but I personally knew quite a few people who were in the mind set FFXI would be replaced by XIV and that was why they were quitting.

While true, I bet a lot of people came back after FFXIV Tanked. Just like some people are coming back now (who quit cause of abyssea... Lol?) because Abyssea is ending.

Maybe ;O

[Carth]

While true, I bet a lot of people came back after FFXIV Tanked. Just like some people are coming back now (who quit cause of abyssea... Lol?) because Abyssea is ending.

Maybe ;O
I can say straight from first-hand experience that I quit nearly a year ago because of FFXIV (which I played during the beta) and I wanted to play an all-new game with an all-new story, which is the focal point of any FF game for me. New gear and new gameplay updates are just icing on the cake. Despite this I was in an endgame LS that did all the old content except for Kings, but that pretty much fell apart right as FFXIV came out because the leader, as well as the officers on that linkshell left. This echos largely for the Fenrir Server in general as it was originally one of the most packed servers but now it's barely holding anyone (this is also because the server is locked due to server merge). Personally, I came back to FFXI not because FFXIV got slammed, but because I heard FFXI became more casual, which was essentially a game I really needed in order to juggle between my gaming and my college studies. A lot of people who deactivated their content IDs are reactivating them as well, though I can't say why without assumption.

As to the topic at hand... I don't really know where all this is going, but these "FFXI is dying" threads have popped up even during the WotG era, which also include these "I quit because X" posts. This thread in it's entirety is complaining about things that have already been complained about. However, for each "I quit" notice I've seen, I notice one, if not more returning/new player rolling into the game, especially these days where those type of threads clog up the front page on Alla.

Bottomline is, FFXI is not dead, and there is no need to call out for a revival.

[Akujima]

because Abyssea is ending.

...Maybe ;O

So rolling through alot of posts, I found some interesting things to note. Even though it seems that the conversation has gone everywhere, it's still quite interesting.

Myself like Anewie, have somewhat quit already. And by "somewhat" I mean, that the game made me lose so much interest, I'm considering weather or not to even bother waiting for what is after Abyssea.

@Karbuncle I would like to go back to your comment about Trick Attack for a moment and use that as an example for complex battle strategies. Yes, you are right, Trick Attack still could be used for tactics and strategies, but the importance of it, is so far dumb down to a point where the actual NEED to use it, is near pointless.

When the player base can have AND is given an excuse to be lazy, they WILL heed the opportunity to do so. We've seen this with Skillchains and Magic Bursts in the old days. And back when it was hard to get THF into an exp PT, because the general assumption was that THF did crap damage (which is complete bullocks) or that the other melee were too lazy to set up for SATA.

The same goes for shadows. In the past, having shadows up or down could have meant the difference between being KO'd or not. But now, the importance on having those shadows up, has been toned down so far, that it requires little to no skill level (of the player) or focus to even bother with.

And on another note.

You're also forgetting about people who quit FFXI because after they came back from the mess that is XIV, they didn't like the direction XI took, because they enjoyed how FFXI was before. I can name 10~15 people that I knew in game for a LOOOONG time (I would even chat with them in ventrillo sometimes) who very much enjoyed Pre-Endgame 75. They never complained about not having certain pieces of gear, or cried constantly about how it was so hard to do something.

No. They enjoyed the difficulty level of the game, and they enjoyed that when they DID obtain an epic piece of gear, it made it all the more worthwhile in having it. They enjoyed how "Epic" certain things were, and the kindergarten that is now Abyssea, was a spit in their face. Why? Because "The Heart" that Anewie and I speak of, was torn out from their game. What was that "Heart"?

It was the "Epicness" in achieving something, and actually doing things that felt worthwhile. But now when I mindlessly grind on Magian trials, or farm some fairly simple NM's for the best gear, that sense of "Epicness" is not there anymore. And yes, this IS the reason why alot of people quit..

[Akujima]

Bottomline is, FFXI is not dead, and there is no need to call out for a revival.

Actually this threads intention was not to imply that FFXI is dying or is dead. Rather it's to discuss the decline in quality gameplay, playerbase and last-ability.

Those things in turn, would/could cause a game to be dying or dead.

[Carth]

I've been accused of speaking for everyone when I post some topics, but that's only coming from those who get offended at other peoples opinions.
As a person who was playing since 2004 (on and off admittedly with 2-3 month long breaks), and as a person who can sympathize with your complaints (but not entirely), I have to say you shouldn't generalize people like that. For the most part, Abyssea did bring in returning players. While their views on Abyssea's activities are mixed (most disagreed about the viability of leech parties), they do enjoy the casual outlook of the game. I also enjoy this myself. Players are much friendlier than they were pre-Abyssea.

I do however have to ask what you consider when you talk about difficulty, because when it comes to FFXI, difficulty is often mixed up with tedium. For example, Old-School CoP was more tedious than difficult. Camping Charybdis (since this came up) was more tedious than difficult. Killing Absolute Virtue was way more difficult than tedious.

EDIT:


Actually this threads intention was not to imply that FFXI is dying or is dead. Rather it's to discuss the decline in quality gameplay, playerbase and last-ability.

Those things in turn, would/could cause a game to be dying or dead.
Very well. But before I answer this I'd like to see your reply to my question in this post, if you don't mind.

[Akujima]

I have to say you shouldn't generalize people like that.

You caught me while still overlooking my post, and I realized this fact and edited that part out.


I do however have to ask what you consider when you talk about difficulty, because when it comes to FFXI, difficulty is often mixed up with tedium. For example, Old-School CoP was more tedious than difficult. Camping Charybdis (since this came up) was more tedious than difficult. Killing Absolute Virtue was way more difficult than tedious.

I had replied to Mevi earlier in this thread about something similar.

And that is, it's been replaced with a different "kind" of tedium. Now instead of the tediousness being based on "luck of the draw" (which in my eyes doesn't really consist of being tedious, unless you're dead set on constantly camping that particular NM over and over again.) instead has been replaced with the tediousness of repetitive grind.

Repetitive grind is a major issue nowadays, and that can be discussed forever. Simply put, alot of people are tired of this style of MMO, and FFXI (Pre-Endgame 75) offered a different approach to this. But SE seemed to have jumped on the WoW bandwagon and brought in "the casual grind".

Yes you are right when mentioning battles like AV or other certain NM's. Difficulty is something that requires you to figure out through planning, strategy and teamwork, how to defeat a particular enemy. How well the co-ordination of your PT/Alliance is, how few mistakes you can make in order to defeat that enemy, determines it's difficulty.

CoP was difficult, because it had many of these battles. The level cap on certain fights, required you think EVEN more about how to defeat an enemy without all those super powered abilities at 75. My assumption of how people thought CoP was tedious, is the many cut scenes required to progress (because most of these people just skipped through and didn't watch the storyline anyways).

All that being said. What they should have done (or still have a chance to implement) is to take their own path, and find a balance between the oldschool XI AND the casual players demands, instead of wiping out one style of play in favor of the other.

[Anewie]

All that being said. What they should have done (or still have a chance to implement) is to take their own path, and find a balance between the oldschool XI AND the casual players demands, instead of wiping out one style of play in favor of the other.

I agree and it's funny because the only reason the player base saw a sudden increase was bcause of FFXIV bombing so epically. The increase isn't even enough to warrant them keeping some servers around, so it's nothing significant, because so many are still quitting.

Once FFXIV is "fixed", the same people who came back because of it, are gonna peace out. At least the majority of the uncasual who enjoyed the grind of the 75 endgame, would stay in FFXI. Mostly because they didn't want to start all over in a new MMO. That was my reason.

It makes sense too. FFXIV is a beautiful game. It wont have the same limitations as XI with the ps2 era. It can go much farther than XI could. It has potential to become FFXI +10. Since my playtime had become gimped down due to irl, I can look at it from a casual point of view. I personally would not care for FFXI if FFXIV was actually playable. Its really awesome looking and there is so much mystery in it. The problem is, the actual playability is too funky.

FFXIV has a new world, new mobs, new everything. It just failed machanics atm. They will fix that in time. FFXI was funky at first too. It wasn't nearly that bad, but it had issues. Why would anyone stay and do the casual grind of XI, which is very limited. Basically abyssea only, when they can do it XIV, and be offered so much new content?

Assuming they "fix" it. It could never get fixed. My guess is though, they will fix it, even if comes down too changing everything about it to mimic FFXI system. SE isn't gonna let ffxiv die without a fight and they will do some drastic stuff to save it, if they have too.

[Carth]

I had replied to Mevi earlier in this thread about something similar.

And that is, it's been replaced with a different "kind" of tedium. Now instead of the tediousness being based on "luck of the draw" (which in my eyes doesn't really consist of being tedious, unless you're dead set on constantly camping that particular NM over and over again.) instead has been replaced with the tediousness of repetitive grind.

Repetitive grind is a major issue nowadays, and that can be discussed forever. Simply put, alot of people are tired of this style of MMO, and FFXI (Pre-Endgame 75) offered a different approach to this. But SE seemed to have jumped on the WoW bandwagon and brought in "the casual grind".
Personally I've never played WoW long enough to compare this but I do see the major difference just from ToTMs and I do agree that the repetitive grind is mind-numbingly boring, though both methods have their perks.

ToTMs is really really slow, but it's constant progression. If you needed to kill 300 mobs, you can kill 30 and call it a day knowing you got something done.
The Pop system is pretty much instant with a strict time window (unless it's a lottery pop then it starts getting lopsided). This time window allows the player to do what they wish for any time outside that window.

While the Pop system had really bad issues with competition, low drop rates, and time issues, (I don't really consider getting up at 3 AM to camp a mob as 'losing sleep', but it is a major problem when the help needed is not online or too tired to help), the Magian trials has really bad issues with lack of moderation and just having really dumb conditions (Weather/Day trials)

I honestly prefer neither of these methods. I'm more of the type who liked to get pop items to pop a NM, or going through a long series of quests to get the ultimate weapon, or going through a large gauntlet of battles to get weapons/equipment, which is why I'm a big fan of Nyzul Isle and the VNM system. Popping NMs have been around since Sky.

However if I had to choose one it'd be the Pop system, if only because I'm a pretty busy guy outside of the game, and I am able to occupy my time with other things. Killing mobs constantly or having to kill the same lottery pop NM over and over again has caused me to more irritation than the former method.


Yes you are right when mentioning battles like AV or other certain NM's. Difficulty is something that requires you to figure out through planning, strategy and teamwork, how to defeat a particular enemy. How well the co-ordination of your PT/Alliance is, how few mistakes you can make in order to defeat that enemy, determines it's difficulty.

CoP was difficult, because it had many of these battles. The level cap on certain fights, required you think EVEN more about how to defeat an enemy without all those super powered abilities at 75. My assumption of how people thought CoP was tedious, is the many cut scenes required to progress (because most of these people just skipped through and didn't watch the storyline anyways).
It seems you and I have the same concept of difficulty, so that's good. Personally I duo with a friend and fight mission bosses without any help, because it's easy to kill a boss with a party and/or alliance, but it's really a challenge when you do things your way. We've been doing this since 75 was the level cap and is actually the main reason why we play this game. Very recently (and I know people will get pissed at this) we duo'd Bahamut and won after four tries. I do however, have to touch upon CoP.

The reason why CoP's restrictions were lifted was because no one did them. Storyline and Battle-wise, I personally commend it as the best expansion they made and it has yet to be topped. However between these storylines and battles you were constantly running around the world farming/buying items that can be summarized as "easy buttons". This stops around Chapter 6, but that's a pretty long time. The worst part of it all though was when you failed the battle and lost your "easy buttons". No one wants to go back to the AH and spend more money, let alone farming them if they weren't in stock. This is how most of my statics fell apart because after one or two losses no one felt like going through the zone playing Metal Gear Solid. This is what I call tedium, and is the reason why I actually like WoTG's storyline because you don't have to farm "easy buttons" and getting to battles were relatively easy.


All that being said. What they should have done (or still have a chance to implement) is to take their own path, and find a balance between the oldschool XI AND the casual players demands, instead of wiping out one style of play in favor of the other.
I believe they had it right with Nyzul Isle and VNMs, but I have no qualms with Abyssea either.

[Karbuncle]

I agree and it's funny because the only reason the player base saw a sudden increase was bcause of FFXIV bombing so epically. The increase isn't even enough to warrant them keeping some servers around, so it's nothing significant, because so many are still quitting.

Once FFXIV is "fixed", the same people who came back because of it, are gonna peace out. At least the majority of the uncasual who enjoyed the grind of the 75 endgame, would stay in FFXI. Mostly because they didn't want to start all over in a new MMO. That was my reason.

It makes sense too. FFXIV is a beautiful game. It wont have the same limitations as XI with the ps2 era. It can go much farther than XI could. It has potential to become FFXI +10. Since my playtime had become gimped down due to irl, I can look at it from a casual point of view. I personally would not care for FFXI if FFXIV was actually playable. Its really awesome looking and there is so much mystery in it. The problem is, the actual playability is too funky.

FFXIV has a new world, new mobs, new everything. It just failed machanics atm. They will fix that in time. FFXI was funky at first too. It wasn't nearly that bad, but it had issues. Why would anyone stay and do the casual grind of XI, which is very limited. Basically abyssea only, when they can do it XIV, and be offered so much new content?

Assuming they "fix" it. It could never get fixed. My guess is though, they will fix it, even if comes down too changing everything about it to mimic FFXI system. SE isn't gonna let ffxiv die without a fight and they will do some drastic stuff to save it, if they have too.

Agreed, if FFXIV is anything like FFXI, We'll go to FFXIV it in 7 Years when its actually playable riding the tide of Q_Q tears from those who think its ruined because its too casual, even though in reality its more fun, accessible and enjoyable than before, its just people have been playing it for 7 years and it no longer excites them like it used to, so they try to find things to scapegoat their blame on.

See you guys on FFXIV in 7 years ;O

[Leonlionheart]

You're also forgetting about people who quit FFXI because after they came back from the mess that is XIV, they didn't like the direction XI took, because they enjoyed how FFXI was before. I can name 10~15 people that I knew in game for a LOOOONG time (I would even chat with them in ventrillo sometimes) who very much enjoyed Pre-Endgame 75. They never complained about not having certain pieces of gear, or cried constantly about how it was so hard to do something.

No. They enjoyed the difficulty level of the game, and they enjoyed that when they DID obtain an epic piece of gear, it made it all the more worthwhile in having it. They enjoyed how "Epic" certain things were, and the kindergarten that is now Abyssea, was a spit in their face. Why? Because "The Heart" that Anewie and I speak of, was torn out from their game. What was that "Heart"?

It was the "Epicness" in achieving something, and actually doing things that felt worthwhile. But now when I mindlessly grind on Magian trials, or farm some fairly simple NM's for the best gear, that sense of "Epicness" is not there anymore. And yes, this IS the reason why alot of people quit..

You're talking about a minority. This 'hardcore' gamer minority also tends to be the loudest because casuals just don't really care that much.

Like I said earlier, casuals is where the money's at.

Even if all these players giving feed back are considered, 80% of the population of FFXI will never see these forums besides maybe the update notes.

[Leonlionheart]

It was the "Epicness" in achieving something, and actually doing things that felt worthwhile. But now when I mindlessly grind on Magian trials, or farm some fairly simple NM's for the best gear, that sense of "Epicness" is not there anymore. And yes, this IS the reason why alot of people quit..

So "Epicness" to you was doing salvage over and over and over and over and over to get the one drop you want?
Or was it camping HNM for 3 hours in the odd hours of the night?
Or was it farming diorite for 8 hours only to have no Byakko's Haidate drop?
Maybe you just loved doing Dynamis week after week to never see Assassin's armlets?

Now me and my friends can go out and accomplish bigger goals with less amount of time.

If you enjoy things that take excessive amounts of time, a hobby like watching paint dry might be more suitable for you than video games.

[Akujima]

You're talking about a minority. This 'hardcore' gamer minority also tends to be the loudest because casuals just don't really care that much.

Like I said earlier, casuals is where the money's at.

Even if all these players giving feed back are considered, 80% of the population of FFXI will never see these forums besides maybe the update notes.

You're not reading it properly.

My friends and I enjoyed Pre-Endgame 75. "Pre" as in Before Endgame (Kings, Sea, Salvage, etc).

@Leonlionheart: It was the developers idea to toss aside old issues with how brutal something was to obtain, rather than fix and adjust the drop rates or shortening the time it took to get whatever item you wanted. So don't blame me. I realize some things we're extremely overdone.

An example is Relics taking 1~1.5 years to get, which is quite bogus (Something like 6~7 months seems decent enough to call them "Epic"). But complaints about Ying-Yang Robe, Chary or Black Belt are just ridiculous. I've spoken to people who said it was too difficult to obtain O-Kote or Fuma Kyahan, which just tips the scale over to laziness.

What they COULD have done is adjusted the drop rates, lowered the timers A LITTLE BIT.

But instead, with Abyssea. What they did was sweep the problems under the rug, instead of truly cleaning up the mess.

[Leonlionheart]

You're not reading it properly.

My friends and I enjoyed Pre-Endgame 75. "Pre" as in before (Kings, Sea, Salvage, etc ).

... So leveling up?

Then I have good news, now instead of killing colibri from 37~75 in level sync you can now solo/duo/trio rather easily to 75!
If you hated level sync, then just make a party that syncs to you!

Even then casual players still enjoy the current game more, because they can do more than just level up and buy AH gear now. Making a Seal party is pretty much the same as making an exp party, except you don't get the fun of being restricted to SAM SAM WAR BRD COR RDM using only penta thrust.

[Akujima]

... So leveling up?

Then I have good news, now instead of killing colibri from 37~75 in level sync you can now solo/duo/trio rather easily to 75!

Umm, actually I did like Level Sync alot. And no, I don't follow a rigid mentality of "the quicker the better". Because if the quicker way was also mind numbingly boring, I didn't go there. Besides. That whole train of thought is kind of whacky to me. Keep that up and pretty soon we'll be hearing about how long it takes to EXP in Abyssea........

But it looks like SE had to accommodate this mentality and create a long drawn out constant grind, in order to get something done. Not to mention the grind consists of "Barcode quests" (Trial #2123, Trial #504!.. how exciting?) that lack any storyline whatsoever. And to boot, are fairly simple battles and/or quests.

But, if you enjoy that style of play, just don't get upset when not everyone agrees with it.

[Leonlionheart]

Umm, actually I did like Level Sync alot. And no, I don't follow a rigid mentality of "the quicker the better". Because if the quicker way was also mind numbingly boring, I didn't go there. Besides. That whole train of thought is kind of whacky to me. Keep that up and pretty soon we'll be hearing about how long it takes to EXP in Abyssea........

But it looks like SE had to accommodate this mentality and create a long drawn out constant grind, in order to get something done. Not to mention the grind consists of "Barcode quests" (Trial #2123, Trial #504!.. how exciting?) that lack any storyline whatsoever. And to boot, are fairly simple battles and/or quests.

But, if you enjoy that style of play, just don't get upset when not everyone agrees with it.

I have no idea what game you are playing where killing 500 bats in Garlaige citadel to get from level 48~49 is any different than ToM? If you didn't level up like everyone else did than I'd love to hear your method.

EDIT: For the record I think that ToM is mega retarded.

[Anewie]

Agreed, if FFXIV is anything like FFXI, We'll go to FFXIV it in 7 Years when its actually playable riding the tide of Q_Q tears from those who think its ruined because its too casual, even though in reality its more fun, accessible and enjoyable than before, its just people have been playing it for 7 years and it no longer excites them like it used to, so they try to find things to scapegoat their blame on.

See you guys on FFXIV in 7 years ;O

Those are your opinions. It only highlights my point you're not really any better than an elitist jerk who goes around taunting and making fun of people, because they can do things and enjoy doing things and having things, others don't.

I'm from asura as well. I could say you're totally bsing saying their are shouts for shinryus and ranis w.o brews consistantly, when that's not true at all. I could say you were just a whiney noob who didn't enjoy old ffxi because your main job was drg and you couldn't be bothered to do anything outside duo/trio. I could say you were so terrible, no einherjar ls would accept you and because you had to be told every 5 minutes to pass cells, no salvage ls would keep you either.

I just checked your ffxiah profile.. and I could say alot but its to be expected.

I'm sorry to say :O! Not everyone is like you. Snarkyness aside, I've never seen a non brew shinryu in the hours i've been on. The game was always accessable for me. You're not me though, and I understand your interests aren't the same as mine.

I do have one question though, what exactly about FFXI was so inaccessable to you? We already talked about kings, which were obselete since odin. I'm really curious what so hard about this game for you? I can understand trash drop rates or long spawns. None of that is "hard" or "stressful" to me though ; ;

Again, everyone is different and plays differently. Those things didn't stress me out. I'm sorry if they did you. Just a video game though^^. Why would you continue playing a game that was stressful or too hard for you?o.O

You made a comment before about how progressively more angry my posts seem. Allow me to comment on yours and how progressively snarky you're trying to be. You seem content with starting an argument with me. Unless you have something new to add, my opinions not changing and neither is yours. If I wanna post in a thread here on the forums, thats my business. You seem to care though!

No idea why !

[Ravenmore]

Anewie you have never seen a non-brewed rani really lol. I seen them all the time. What you don't see is shouts for them i'll call some BS on that or that they won't win. Many LSs or small group of friends that have a clue can kill raja/rani with out a brew. sorry didn't really read all of your post but same cqan be said pick ups most likey couldnt win shin with out a brew but close nit group of friends could. Its really easy to kill if you don't heal it as well as easy to fail even if you brew.

[Wenceslao]

Well i think we are receiving many changes in so short time, many of us we still don't get, and many of us maybe will accept with more easy than others, the point is many players feels that its not necessary come with big updates with new areas, harder mobs, or more challenging content, what many of us want its a game enjoyable, many players (at least in Ramuh server), feels the game has lost something important, imo allowing us to change color to a wyvern, to revamp ballista, garrison, dynamis, limbus, BCNM and crafting activities its more important that adding me new abyss-like content, maybe i'm nostalgic, maybe i'm so old-fashioned but that was the part i enjoyed most, an first i was dissapointed with the new method for dynamis, but as time passed and i kept reading about how they were changing it, give me hope, i may not be doing Voidwatch or whatever is named, but i assure i'll find another interesting thing to do, i just hope SE listen all our suggestions and gradually (when the time and funds allows them) implement them to give us a better experience.

[Anewie]

Anewie you have never seen a non-brewed rani really lol. I seen them all the time. What you don't see is shouts for them i'll call some BS on that or that they won't win. Many LSs or small group of friends that have a clue can kill raja/rani with out a brew. sorry didn't really read all of your post but same cqan be said pick ups most likey couldnt win shin with out a brew but close nit group of friends could. Its really easy to kill if you don't heal it as well as easy to fail even if you brew.

Yeah, my playtime has been gimped down a lot recently. I only have casual gametime now. From what I've seen when I'm on, everyone is like "RANI DO YOU NEED HAVE! RING RESERVED! X2 BREW" ETC.

Just a note to all people, I am really not against the game atm. Unlike some people (cough), I'm all for catering to casuals. But let me ask you this, remember the days when SE only catered to elite players? How did that make you feel? It probably irritated you. Well now is a different scenario. I find it funny, I personally have been very supportive of catering to casuals. I just didn't think my groups would be completley left in the dust forever.

The same casuals are now laughing at me and others because we aren't enjoying "new casual only endgame". The same people who were made fun of and laughed at for not being able to get relics, ultimate gear, the titles from rare HNM, are now saying stuff like "Your tears are delicious" etc.

You know.. That kind of talk sounds awfull familiar to the time the botting generation was on bg, laughing at others because they had nasa and no one could beat them. People with 5/5 salvage laughing at others because they duped gear and got away with it. (not for long tho! tee hee)

Now some of you very casuals are attacking people who are asking for more of some of the old stuff. Calling us QQers and stuff. Although you're not cheating and entitled to your opinion, you sound exactly like those botting cheating jerks who made fun of you back at 75. How funny is that?

I guess being happy with what you can do isnt good enough. Good enough meaning fun and entertaining. The difference between asking for things to be easier for you and someone asking for MORE harder content, is this: one if a whiner. One person doesnt like the harder stuff, so they are constantly complaining about the content. Even when SE is constantly making fixes and adjustments for you. I really don't think that is the same thing as what myself and others like me are asking. I'm not asking for things to be changed for me. I welcome change. What i was asking as an 8 year player, was for content to be added that interests me and my groups. Then you have people who don';t want that content added, even if theres alternate means of obtaining the rewards, because they simply can't and don't want anyone to have the option to do more and have more than them.

That's nothing but pure selfishness. Sorry. A player like this is only different from a botter in the sense they don't cheat. They are just as inconsiderate and snotty. No consideration or thought for the next guy.

HOW ABOUT ADDING DIFFERENT CONTENT FOR DIFFERENT GROUPS OF PEOPLE WITH DIFFERENT PLAYTIME AND INTERESTS? NO? THAT WOULD BE UNFAIR AMIRITE? lolz

[Yarly]

These forums were made as an outlet for SE, not as an inlet for players' complaints and flames and demands. Updates cost money for SE, but they're free for us aside from our monthly fee.
Everyone makes demands on these forums. Some of them are easier to apply than others, some of them are completely outlandish and unbalanced. I don't see why SE doesn't just delete threads like this one. They serve no purpose whatsoever.

[Yarly]

Now some of you very casuals are attacking people who are asking for more of some of the old stuff. Calling us QQers and stuff. Although you're not cheating and entitled to your opinion, you sound exactly like those botting cheating jerks who made fun of you back at 75. How funny is that?

This is so true, the irony is hilarious.

[Akujima]

I'm from Asura as well.

I'm Shinjima on Asura. But I came over from Pandemonium during the first merge.

Lol... I've never cared one bit about any hockey team, sports team or even the country I live in, rofl... But when Pandemonium got taken away, I was furious -_-...

[Akujima]

I have no idea what game you are playing where killing 500 bats in Garlaige citadel to get from level 48~49 is any different than ToM?

Well first off I didn't go from Lv 37~75 on birds alone. There are other mobs that required different tactics and strategy to defeat...

Also, back in the day EXP'ing was actually fun.

- The WAR had to provoke and line up with the NIN so the THF could SATA.
- The NIN had to focus and keep those shadows up so the WHM isn't cure spamming and getting hate.
- The BLM had to watch nukes and not do TOO MUCH damage, so the NIN could keep hate.
- The THF had to pull off SATA and know when to go fishing for the next mob so a steady flow of EXP could come in.
- The RDM had to keep dispels up, enfeebles up and refresh on to help out the mages.


THAT is dynamics. That's what I enjoyed about FFXI back in the day.


What FFXI has turned into: Everyone mashes their buttons and spams all their abilities, trying to out damage, out heal, out parse their LS mates, in a non-stop E-Peen competition.

[Olor]

HOW ABOUT ADDING DIFFERENT CONTENT FOR DIFFERENT GROUPS OF PEOPLE WITH DIFFERENT PLAYTIME AND INTERESTS? NO? THAT WOULD BE UNFAIR AMIRITE? lolz

There is tons of content for people with different playtimes and interests. If unbrewed shinryu battles are so important to you why don't you just have at it?

Also Crabknuckle treats everyone here pretty respectfully and you're comments were totally out of line. Just cause you're butthurt doesn't mean you have to get personal.

[Anewie]

There is tons of content for people with different playtimes and interests. If unbrewed shinryu battles are so important to you why don't you just have at it?

Also Crabknuckle treats everyone here pretty respectfully and you're comments were totally out of line. Just cause you're butthurt doesn't mean you have to get personal.

How this, Lets just agree to disagree. That's your opinion on the content. Unless you would like to go into detail and explain what content thats appealing outside abyssea that appeals to anyone? You think there is so much content, I'd love to hear it. Last a checked, only abyssea offered new gear. Maybe I missed something? I'm open to correction! Please, feel free.

INB4: kings, salvage, einherjar, nyzul, assault, campaign and besigied are still so much fun and offer so many nice rewards! Leaping Lizzy and Valk Emp. are still so much fun too!

[Olor]

OH. I see - you want the devs to use resources to make NEW content that only 10 per cent of the playerbase can enjoy... if that is the only thing that will make you happy, then you will probably be soley dissapointed by MMOs from this day forward - given the fact that developers like making money and I am pretty sure most of us who like to pay to play MMOs are not into paying full price for a game where most of the best content is utterly inaccesible

[Anewie]

OH. I see - you want the devs to use resources to make NEW content that only 10 per cent of the playerbase can enjoy... if that is the only thing that will make you happy, then you will probably be soley dissapointed by MMOs from this day forward - given the fact that developers like making money and I am pretty sure most of us who like to pay to play MMOs are not into paying full price for a game where most of the best content is utterly inaccesible

If you took time to read my posts, I said the player base would enjoy anything not abyssea related, but dont back track. I'm very curious to know what exact content you're talking about.

OK, please, explain what you mean. What besides HNMs were inaaccessable to you and so many? Can you go into detail? Again, king gear was put in a bcnm. What was so inaccessable besides that? Last i checked the toau/wotg HNM gear didnt make up even a fraction of the gear the several others INSTANCED-ish events such as dyna,nyzul,assault,salvage,einherjar offered. That stuff was inaccessable for you?o.O

[Akujima]

That stuff was inaccessable for you?o.O

I was just going to make the same post you did lol... But yea... I think we're going to see this same trend non-stop...

It's like saying, "The 3rd floor of my apartment is inaccessible because it has stairs and not an escalator".

Ridiculousness

[Anewie]

I was just going to make the same post you did lol... But yea... I think we're going to see this same trend non-stop...

It's like saying, "The 3rd floor of my apartment is inaccessible because it has stairs and not an escalator".

Ridiculousness

ITS TOO HARD! IT'S GONNA TAKE TOO LONG; ;! CAN SOMEONE NERFE THE APARMENT BUILDING SO I CAN GET TO MY HOMEPOINT?; ;

[Olor]

Hey, it's cool, I don't have an epeen to defend here. Yeah, actually Ein. Salvage etc. was inaccessible to me. Still is, lol. I am at level 66 now and it the highest I have ever been. I played for a year and a half and didn't even get to 50 before. I've gotten to see a lot more of the game on my new char in a month than I saw in a year and a half on my old char.

I am sure if I had played another two years on that 1 char, I probably would have gotten to access some of that content. But in the meantime I was paying for content I have STILL never even seen. That's not really okay.

It's fine if you want to make fun of me for my lack of progress or whatever, but the original XI was designed to be a horrific time sink that only rewarded the most hardcore of hardcore players. It's too bad that you believe that things taking a eon to complete = hard and having endless hours to spend doing that = skill.

I have never even been to Abyssea outside of one (crappy) leech session on my DNC and doing the quest to accumulate stones, so I don't have any especial complaints about it/love of it. That said - the way XI is now, where I can get to 66 in a month versus spending a year and a half to not even get a level break, is much better and sensible.

At the moment I think XI rewards time put in without punishing people who just don't have the time to put in - a lot better than it ever did.(Although I think it could still be better)

I am not, nor have I ever been, in the position to do scheduled events on a video game. If you think that having to treat a game like a job to access content is "accessible" - well, you might need to get to know your local dictionary better.

[Aureus]

Hey, it's cool, I don't have an epeen to defend here. Yeah, actually Ein. Salvage etc. was inaccessible to me. Still is, lol. I am at level 66 now and it the highest I have ever been. I played for a year and a half and didn't even get to 50 before.
...
It's fine if you want to make fun of me for my lack of progress or whatever, but the original XI was designed to be a horrific time sink that only rewarded the most hardcore of hardcore players. It's too bad that you believe that things taking a eon to complete = hard and having endless hours to spend doing that = skill.

How would you know, you've never done any ffxi endgame.

You're making judgments based on how you HEARD ffxi used to be, not how you've experienced it.

[Olor]

Um... actually... the fact that in two years of combined playtime (over 3 chars) with "vanilla XI" (pre-aby) I never got over 50 - I can make the statement that the game was a horrific time sink - not even including endgame.

[Akujima]

Hey, it's cool, I don't have an epeen to defend here. Yeah, actually Ein. Salvage etc. was inaccessible to me. Still is, lol. I am at level 66 now and it the highest I have ever been. I played for a year and a half and didn't even get to 50 before. I've gotten to see a lot more of the game on my new char in a month than I saw in a year and a half on my old char.

I am sure if I had played another two years on that 1 char, I probably would have gotten to access some of that content...


...I am not, nor have I ever been, in the position to do scheduled events on a video game. If you think that having to treat a game like a job to access content is "accessible" - well, you might need to get to know your local dictionary better.

Alright so there's two definitions of that word. But try not to take this as an insult, is that one definition of the word is for the handicapped. You may have not played Abyssea much, or have seen oldschool content, but it's quite literally a handicap compared to bygone days.

I played FFXI for years man, years. I had LOADS of fun on FFXI, I met amazing people, made amazing friends and loved the unique battle system that had so much depth it was scary. And I still didn't get to do everything in it. I'm upset that when I finally was able to actually ENTER Endgame 75... They announced a level increase, completely making all the content I never got to experience, worthless. So can you see where I'm coming from?

I did Sea once or twice, I never did Salvage or Einherjar and I disliked HNM (alot of people disliked HNM, but a few loved it). But as much as I didn't play alot of the endgame scenarios, there were still many choices for me, such as Sky, Dynamis, Limbus, Nyzul Isle and Campaign. All in themselves having decent rewards and being fun to mess around in with friends.

The difference between now and then is that there is basically one thing to do at Lv90... Abyssea. And it's not even remotely difficult. If Abyssea is one thing though, it is rewarding. But I'm not into being spoon fed like a baby... Not my thing.

[Tezz]

FF11 time sinks were very bad, and still can be to this day. If you let it be.

Back then if your LS had their sh!t together then events would rarely take over 2-2.5hrs(non-COP Dynamis excluded). A good night with a few events packed in could easily go 3-5hrs~. People should know what they signed up for when/if they filled out an application with their LS.

FF11 was getting to an overwhelming point IF you tried to do everything at once (Einherjar, Salvage, Nyzul/Assaults, Dynamis, Sky, Sea/Limbus, Kings etc...) then it all seemed impossible & unhealthy.
But if your LS had good time management then they would rotate events in the given week.

Even though most events could be done in around 2hrs, i agree that they were underwhelming on drops most of the time. I always thought we needed NMs to have either better drop rates, a larger array of drops, and/or a running-total that kept track of how many times you killed it and upped the drop rate to a point until you got it (then it would reset for you/everyone).
Because of the bad drop rates many people (to this day) confuse tedium with difficulty (won't even get started on FF11's AI & "Strategies").

[Olor]

The difference between now and then is that there is basically one thing to do at Lv90... Abyssea. And it's not even remotely difficult. If Abyssea is one thing though, it is rewarding. But I'm not into being spoon fed like a baby... Not my thing.


All the other content is there to be used. It didn't go anywhere. Oh, the rewards aren't good enough anymore? So, what?

Man I still want to do that old content - rewards be damned. If you can't have fun unless you are aiming for the absolute best gear in the game, then what do you mean, you don't want to be spoonfed? You don't want to do content unless you are given carrots. That is arguably a form of spoon-feeding.

I am not arguing that Abyssea is the be all or whatever, I haven't even done Abyssea really - but it really is silly to complain that Abyssea is "all there is" when there is a ton of content that isn't Abyssea.

So what is your problem? You don't like that the new dynamis will be more like Abyssea?

I am pretty sure the devs have a better handle on the numbers of incoming versus outgoing players than we do, and I am betting the reason that they are making new content more like Abyssea is because they can see how many hours the average character is online, how many of their new subs are online for how much time etc. and they have probably conjectured (and rightly so) that it is better to please the majority of their playerbase versus a small, vocal minority that feels like it is only fun if it is "elite" (Codeword for: I only like to play if I can feel superior to others) and unavailable to most people.

Seriously, get over yourselves. If you stopped worrying about the fact that scrubs can get nice gear now, and spent time doing all that content you like better than Abyssea for fun - instead of worrying if you are keeping up or whatever, the game would probably be a lot more enjoyable.

[Ravenmore]

The old way of exp targeting IT++ was a player created problem. People only seen the exp per kill were killing 2 VTs in the same amount of time would give better exp over time. That been in the game since day one people were just going after the wrong exp targets.

Before 37 nin was a poor tank with out a co-tank. High recast on shadows and low haste from gear and mages was the problem along with going after IT++. After 37 haste gear and spalls starts opening up.

I'm not super casual I did all the old endgame and really i'm sick of it. As were lot of other people. Having to keep going back over and over for a chance to get one drop from a event with 3 day cool down gets old. Waiting on mobs that took no skill to kill but was camped by botters and 100 others gets real old.

I did salvage till af2/af1 was released for blu and seen I didn't need to bother with a event that would offer nothing more over something I would get the in finish form or get mats and coins at the same time. Low drop rates for gear that would then need mils to upgrde was poor disign.

Abyssea is not perfect but its a improvement over the most the old content. Only thing I enjoyed as much was limbus, Decent drop rate on gear and could be done in small groups, or large could make you own diffculty.

[Leonlionheart]

Well first off I didn't go from Lv 37~75 on birds alone. There are other mobs that required different tactics and strategy to defeat...

Also, back in the day EXP'ing was actually fun.

- The WAR had to provoke and line up with the NIN so the THF could SATA.
- The NIN had to focus and keep those shadows up so the WHM isn't cure spamming and getting hate.
- The BLM had to watch nukes and not do TOO MUCH damage, so the NIN could keep hate.
- The THF had to pull off SATA and know when to go fishing for the next mob so a steady flow of EXP could come in.
- The RDM had to keep dispels up, enfeebles up and refresh on to help out the mages.


THAT is dynamics. That's what I enjoyed about FFXI back in the day.


What FFXI has turned into: Everyone mashes their buttons and spams all their abilities, trying to out damage, out heal, out parse their LS mates, in a non-stop E-Peen competition.

It's still fighting the same mob over and over and over and over and over, you just move to other mobs more often. That's why I mentioned 500 bats instead of 48958769 colibri.

Even your description of a party is just another GOTTA HAVE DAT JOB, in a scenario where other jobs are left behind. That's just about as much 'dynamic' as it is now when fighting things like Glavoid or things that absorb damage when they are performing certain actions. Sounds like it's all just timing, not really dynamic play.

You still need to line up in most fights, NIN still keeps shadows up, I've never even seen a good WHM get hate. BLM still play exactly like you described, just to a lesser extent. THF still does all that. RDM is still the same job, just doesn't need to refresh everyone anymore.

Skillchains and Magic Bursts have been gone for more than 4 years now. SE tries to bring it back, but increasing WS frequency is just so much more efficient than slightly higher damage/accuracy nukes and a percentage of ws damage as skillchain damage.

More for the record: My first job was MNK to 75 right around when ToAU came out.

[Leonlionheart]

I'm upset that when I finally was able to actually ENTER Endgame 75... They announced a level increase, completely making all the content I never got to experience, worthless.

Let me save you the suspense: It's a hell of a lot of doing the same thing over and over and over and over again without much reward, or a lot of reward for just a few people.

[Akujima]

Even your description of a party is just another GOTTA HAVE DAT JOB, in a scenario where other jobs are left behind

Actually it was an example. And the whole "GATTA HAVE DAT JOB" would not include NIN or THF lol... It's more like "Invite a PLD plz, I don't feel like voking first for SATA. thx"

Personally I would invite every single job out there. But obviously running with too many tanks and not enough healing is just foolish, or vice versa. I'm not going to invite a DNC if we already have a RNG (to fish) and a WHM and RDM (for heals). I would invite every single job to an EXP PT, you name it, SMN, BST, PUP, DNC, COR, DRK, THF (all those jobs other people disliked or knew nothing about). And you can ask anyone who knew Akujima or Shinjima on Pandemonium or Asura server, my EXP PT's were 95% quality.

Why were they always 95% quality? Because I knew what I was doing, and I knew how each job worked together. I never played the favorites game, but unfortunately alot of people did, and alot of people still do.

[Leonlionheart]

Actually it was an example. And the whole "GATTA HAVE DAT JOB" would not include NIN or THF lol... It's more like "Invite a PLD plz, I don't feel like voking first for SATA. thx"

Personally I would invite every single job out there. But obviously running with too many tanks and not enough healing is just foolish, or vice versa. I'm not going to invite a DNC if we already have a RNG (to fish) and a WHM and RDM (for heals). I would invite every single job to an EXP PT, you name it, SMN, BST, PUP, DNC, COR, DRK, THF. And you can ask anyone who knew Akujima or Shinjima on Pandemonium or Asura server, my EXP PT's were 95% quality.

Why were they always 95% quality? Because I knew what I was doing, and I knew how each job worked together. I never played the favorites game, but unfortunately alot of people did, and alot of people still do.

Pretty sure I may have played with Shinjima at some point, sounds familiar. I'm from pandemonium too.

My point, however, was that essentially no jobs role has really changed at all. The only thing different is that you NEEEEEEEED Red/Blue/Yellow procs to be successful inside abyssea. (And that having RR makes everyone with a crit hit ws godly.) All jobs can still be used successfully inside abyssea, but they just aren't needed.

[Yarly]

Well first off I didn't go from Lv 37~75 on birds alone. There are other mobs that required different tactics and strategy to defeat...

Also, back in the day EXP'ing was actually fun.

- The WAR had to provoke and line up with the NIN so the THF could SATA.
- The NIN had to focus and keep those shadows up so the WHM isn't cure spamming and getting hate.
- The BLM had to watch nukes and not do TOO MUCH damage, so the NIN could keep hate.
- The THF had to pull off SATA and know when to go fishing for the next mob so a steady flow of EXP could come in.
- The RDM had to keep dispels up, enfeebles up and refresh on to help out the mages.

THAT is dynamics. That's what I enjoyed about FFXI back in the day.


What's stopping you from doing this now? Oh right, nothing.

[JensenM]

Ok, I used to play back in 2005/2006. I had some nice stats too. Derik was my character's name. The game didn't lose it's nostalgia factor for me back then, I just stopped playing because of life in general.
Fast forward some 6 years... was looking at games online and game across the Vanadiel collection. I thought to myself, "Man, this game is still around? I have to get it again!".
I am so glad I did.
While there aren't as many people playing as their used to be, I still find myself running into helpful, friendly people willing to help a low level guy out. I finally got my sub-job after about 3 weeks, thanks to my girlfriend, who plays too, and Kalamarie, who was nice enough to help both of us get the magicked skull. Just the other day I FINALLY reached level 30 and I'm starting the advanced job quests.
Maybe it's because I have so much to do, I don't know, but the game still seems fun to me and I find myself playing it a lot somedays, just like I used to in 2005.
I find myself solo'ing a lot, but that's to be expected when everyone is so much further ahead than me lol.
So, yes, maybe there is a decline in dedicated players, but it would be unfair to say all players, since it's awfully nice when there are people running around, with all of their jobs at level 90, willing to help out newbies.
As far as the forums, well, this is my first post, so yeah =]
Gameplay still seems fun, to me at least. And the nostalgia factor is incredibly high for me. All in all, I'm glad I came back to play, and to all of you who are uber-far in the game, and still willing to help people out, thank you.

Just my two cents. Agree or disagree, it's all the same.

[Karbuncle]

Derp

Sorry this is like 4 pages late, I went to bed. On the topic of quitting if the game became to stressful? Yeah, I would. a Game is not worth uneccessary stress all the time. if its something small like "I didn't get drop" its not a big deal. I don't think i can find a lot of things that would honestly stress me so much to quite though...

But i've never blamed nor condemned you for quitting, in fact I've mentioned its likely the best choice you could have made. I agree with your decision.

Also! You really need to laugh more! I thought it was pretty funny. Though, actually resorting to trying to dig up dirt on my FFXIAH profile to add to our little conversation, That hurt bad, Luckilyi had Migawari up. something we didn't have back at 75 ^_~

1) if its about my BLU Gear. I'm working on +1/+2 gear for it. Which is better than i can say for most players. I used it for Targeting the Captain and i rarely play the job, But I'm still bothering to try and gear it, and at least i have all my spells :|

2) If its about my Comment. Thats an Inside joke with my friends, but I'm sure you took it differently, or thought i was being serious, right? Yah, You did. Don't lie to me. I can tell!

3) If you want to judge me based on a my current gear shown, thats your prerogative. Also I haven't updated those gear-sets in months (especially PLD and RDM), Judge me on my THF, WAR, and MNK, the 3 jobs that I've actually succeeded in getting gear for so far. Seal drop rates suck, but theyre easy to farm, So i'm working on it :D!

4) Gear is not everything, While some may lead you to believe differently, I know my jobs, I know how to play them, and i know what I'm doing, Which is more than i can say for half the game. If you think something "...and i could say a lot but i wont" based on a AH page, you yourself are far more "Bad" elitist than i ever am. You mention irony, I think its ironic that you say the things you say, then turn around and try to find as much dirt on me as possible. Here i thought we were enjoying a pleasant conversation?

I certainly didn't try to dig up dirt on you or stalk your FFXIAH page for information to sling in an online internet 'conversation'. shame on you good madam.


See now, You could have said something like "LOL, Yah, and we'll be surrounded by the idiots who can't tell its a dying game and blindly accept their casual fantasy XIV" and i would have chuckled. Cause all this time I could have sworn you told me this isn't stressing you, and that we weren't "Arguing". I thought you'd handle a joke better, even if it was slighlty aimed in your direction.

Secondly, Yes, I've been playing since NA Release, I've enjoyed this game for years, I have a life, a GF, My own apartment, and a job too, So you can't pull a RL Card next response :D! I started when i was about 15-ish, I'm now 22, Full time job, and i love what the game is now.

Thirdly, I don't mind if everyone is not like me, Its never been about that, I'm not sure where this even came into play...

Fourthly, on Rani/Shinryu, I didn't say constantly, i said "Occasionally". I see shouts for 6-man Shinryu's often. Also, I said nothing about un-brewed Rani's. Read back to that post and you can see clearly i only mention Shinryu in context with "no brews". Am i assuming? Yah, Probably, When i see "Shinryu Do you need it? WHM, Can i have it? 5/6" I assume they're trying to kill it without a brew, or why would you bring 6 people? I admit i assume its for non-brew. I could be wrong, but it would be an honest mistake.

I'm just not accustomed to people bringing 6 others to an easily brewable fight without the intentions of doing it un-brewed. Cause it feels like thats a lot of unnecessary jobs/lot competition.

Also, You need to learn the difference between Snarky and anger. I quite enjoy a debate, or conversation, sometimes my sarcastic side shows yes i know, i slip up. I try not to be a sarcastic freak online. But I figured since you, yourself told me you don't get "upset" or "stressed" about these things, You might laugh it off. Clearly, one of us is wrong. Either I misjudged your character, Or you're lying to me when you say you don't get stressed over forums. When I talk to someone who assures me they aren't angry over it, i assume then they can take jokes.

Also i only care about you posting on this forums because I'm worried about your well being clearly, You can be so hurtful sometimes.

As a Side note, I Don't "attack" The hardcore. If you check out the "Will there be any new HNMs?" thread, I actually quite understand the ENTIRE mindset of a hardcore. Their Achievements mean nothing because everyone else can achieve it. I understand the game has lost its meaning to those types of people. However, They're no saints either. They condemn and blame casuals for every single problem in the game, and don't tend to realize that Purely "Hardcore" games suck almost as bad as "Purely casual" Games. I've always believed there needs to be a balance of Hardcore and Casual goals.

But if a game decides it wants content to be user-friendly and accessible to anyway, i respect those types of decisions, because its a hard one to make. You upset Hardcores but you make Casuals happy.

Theres a lot more to be said, But in the interest of not making too big of a giant post i'll stop here.

OH! BTW if you quote me, Edit my post down to 1 word. I'd like to see what word you chose. (Also i have a strange feeling even though this thread has turned into back-and-forht's, We should end this soon!)

[RaenRyong]

So-called "hardcores" are not those you want to cater to anyway. Not only do they typically represent a very obnoxious demographic, but content such as old HNM which is designed for them only benefits them, whereas content anyone can participate in benefits everybody. Epeen players should be ignored.

[Glamdring]

Personally, I think they'll never change the Aby entrance cap, but they'll "easy mode" everything to get there. It's a shame really. There was a real sense of accomplishment involved in beating the content I had to go through to get to end-game. I love my Raja's ring. I still use my ACP,ASA and MKT gear on my beast and my pup. I found the synthetic Atma I got for completeing what I have done useful until I got the Stronger Atmas for beating certain NMs and I still use them situationally.

If they add more content, but require pre-reqs of beating some of the old I think more players would develop an appreciation for the world outside Abyssea. You want those outposts for tele, you want that rank 10 in your home nation, a Raja's, a beastly earring, a temperance torque, etc.

[Anewie]

Sorry this is like 4 pages late, I went to bed. On the topic of quitting if the game became to stressful? Yeah, I would. a Game is not worth uneccessary stress all the time. if its something small like "I didn't get drop" its not a big deal. I don't think i can find a lot of things that would honestly stress me so much to quite though...But i've never blamed nor condemned you for quitting, in fact I've mentioned its likely the best choice you could have made. I agree with your decision.

Also! You really need to laugh more! I thought it was pretty funny. Though, actually resorting to trying to dig up dirt on my FFXIAH profile to add to our little conversation, That hurt bad, Luckilyi had Migawari up. something we didn't have back at 75 ^_~

1) if its about my BLU Gear. I'm working on +1/+2 gear for it. Which is better than i can say for most players. I used it for Targeting the Captain and i rarely play the job, But I'm still bothering to try and gear it, and at least i have all my spells :|

2) If its about my Comment. Thats an Inside joke with my friends, but I'm sure you took it differently, or thought i was being serious, right? Yah, You did. Don't lie to me. I can tell!

3) If you want to judge me based on a my current gear shown, thats your prerogative. Also I haven't updated those gear-sets in months (especially PLD and RDM), Judge me on my THF, WAR, and MNK, the 3 jobs that I've actually succeeded in getting gear for so far. Seal drop rates suck, but theyre easy to farm, So i'm working on it :D!

4) Gear is not everything, While some may lead you to believe differently, I know my jobs, I know how to play them, and i know what I'm doing, Which is more than i can say for half the game. If you think something "...and i could say a lot but i wont" based on a AH page, you yourself are far more "Bad" elitist than i ever am. You mention irony, I think its ironic that you say the things you say, then turn around and try to find as much dirt on me as possible. Here i thought we were enjoying a pleasant conversation?

I certainly didn't try to dig up dirt on you or stalk your FFXIAH page for information to sling in an online internet 'conversation'. shame on you good madam.


See now, You could have said something like "LOL, Yah, and we'll be surrounded by the idiots who can't tell its a dying game and blindly accept their casual fantasy XIV" and i would have chuckled. Cause all this time I could have sworn you told me this isn't stressing you, and that we weren't "Arguing". I thought you'd handle a joke better, even if it was slighlty aimed in your direction.

Secondly, Yes, I've been playing since NA Release, I've enjoyed this game for years, I have a life, a GF, My own apartment, and a job too, So you can't pull a RL Card next response :D! I started when i was about 15-ish, I'm now 22, Full time job, and i love what the game is now.

Thirdly, I don't mind if everyone is not like me, Its never been about that, I'm not sure where this even came into play...

Fourthly, on Rani/Shinryu, I didn't say constantly, i said "Occasionally". I see shouts for 6-man Shinryu's often. Also, I said nothing about un-brewed Rani's. Read back to that post and you can see clearly i only mention Shinryu in context with "no brews". Am i assuming? Yah, Probably, When i see "Shinryu Do you need it? WHM, Can i have it? 5/6" I assume they're trying to kill it without a brew, or why would you bring 6 people? I admit i assume its for non-brew. I could be wrong, but it would be an honest mistake.

I'm just not accustomed to people bringing 6 others to an easily brewable fight without the intentions of doing it un-brewed. Cause it feels like thats a lot of unnecessary jobs/lot competition.

Also, You need to learn the difference between Snarky and anger. I quite enjoy a debate, or conversation, sometimes my sarcastic side shows yes i know, i slip up. I try not to be a sarcastic freak online. But I figured since you, yourself told me you don't get "upset" or "stressed" about these things, You might laugh it off. Clearly, one of us is wrong. Either I misjudged your character, Or you're lying to me when you say you don't get stressed over forums. When I talk to someone who assures me they aren't angry over it, i assume then they can take jokes.

Also i only care about you posting on this forums because I'm worried about your well being clearly, You can be so hurtful sometimes.
As a Side note, I Don't "attack" The hardcore. If you check out the "Will there be any new HNMs?" thread, I actually quite understand the ENTIRE mindset of a hardcore. Their Achievements mean nothing because everyone else can achieve it. I understand the game has lost its meaning to those types of people. However, They're no saints either. They condemn and blame casuals for every single problem in the game, and don't tend to realize that Purely "Hardcore" games suck almost as bad as "Purely casual" Games. I've always believed there needs to be a balance of Hardcore and Casual goals.

But if a game decides it wants content to be user-friendly and accessible to anyway, i respect those types of decisions, because its a hard one to make. You upset Hardcores but you make Casuals happy.

Theres a lot more to be said, But in the interest of not making too big of a giant post i'll stop here.

OH! BTW if you quote me, Edit my post down to 1 word. I'd like to see what word you chose. (Also i have a strange feeling even though this thread has turned into back-and-forht's, We should end this soon!)

Thank you so much for the elaborate post Karby! Debate? I'd ask you what exactly we're debating about but you'll probably ramble on about random stuff agaiin and throw in some sarcastic remarks instead. I know I asked you before what was so inaccessable for you back at 75 besides "lolHNM" and I didn't get a response, but it's okay! I didn't even bother to read all of your posts about your irl and all that, lol. You're the only one who had the mindset of irl having anything to do with.. final fantasy forum and ffxi. You're the only one mentioning stress and a video game.

If your definition of a debate is instead of answering questions directly and intelligently, and instead making off the wall and sacarstic comments in a thread you have said several times over you don't agree with, okie dokie!

You've mentioned stress and irl a lot lately. Most people don't get stressed out by video games and i'm only assuming you either use the IRL card or have had it used against you, in which case, not all of us are that immature. Also, none of us care about your irl.

You seem to want the last word really badly, though! You seem to have a really hard time letting things go! Let me help you out with that. ;)

[Karbuncle]

Its never about the last word >___> What are you my mom?

I just feel the need to defend myself when i see assaults one way or the other. Rather they be direct, Or passive aggressive~

Truthfully if you had left the FFXIAH stalking part out, I'd probably of never responded :D

[RaenRyong]

If they add more content, but require pre-reqs of beating some of the old I think more players would develop an appreciation for the world outside Abyssea. You want those outposts for tele, you want that rank 10 in your home nation, a Raja's, a beastly earring, a temperance torque, etc.

Would have to be one hell of a reward for me to want a Beastly Earring O_o

[Zaknafein]

Anewie,

Love your posts in this thread. Your view points are 98% my thoughts on those issue's. Why casual people balk, and get defensive anytime a veteran posts asking for some challenging content outside abyssea is always amusing imo. Like having content without atmas, abyssite, and the option to "just brew it" is blasphemy. Or the usual line of "if you want a challenge just don't get atma's or buffs." Why they can't grasp the concept of killing things w/o buffs is not rewarding because those same targets are killed by people using those crutches baffles me.

I certainly hope when 99 hits there will be a two tiered option for End Game the way Einherjar was to kings. Only this would be geared toward Casual/hardcore. Hopefully it can be implemented simultaneously, and not retroactively this time around. I am very happy that casual gamers have had the option to experience more of the game. I have helped many, and accepted a decent amount into my linkshell over the past 7 months.

That being said. The game itself just isn't as rewarding as it used to be. Sure gearing out my jobs, and my members is cool. Although none of it feels like it was an accomplishment. While casual players are basking in this now, because they were denied that for years they fail to realize they are headed to the same conclusion as vets who are bored. With the easy mode floodgate wide open it is only a matter of time (not as long as u think either) till they have geared their jobs, and find the abyssea/TotM are not as fun when you have everything you wanted already.

Considering SE is trying to re use as much as possible I still hope they will incorporate a new, and improved PvP. The time, and resources spent on say converting the coliseum in WG to a PvP arena would continue to pay dividends far into the future. People who have all the gear they want and sit aimlessly in town, or staring at their moogle spin would always have the option to do that. It doesn't need "elite" gear as rewards. Could be as simple as fancy town gear, and furnishings that are only obtainable from there. Being able to go participate in or just go watch/bet on 1vs1 or 3vs3 & 6vs6 matches would be great entertainment.

I am keeping an optimistic outlook that SE will incorporate both the Pvp, and a two tiered difficulty option for the 99 End game experience. However if at least one of these options doesn't materialize when we cross that bridge I don't see vets sticking around, and casual gamers will not be far behind. Once they've exhausted the things to do, and gear to obtain because everything is handed out like door prizes nowadays.

I know I personally have no desire to begin a new MMO ff14 included. Even if it hadn't been released in the horrific state it was, and was a solid product it would make no difference. I <3 FFXI, and have put many years/effort into it. With any luck SE will see that catering to one side or the other was never the correct methodology. There needs to be content for everyone to enjoy, and take pride in. /crosses fingers

[Karbuncle]

Anewie,

Love your posts in this thread. Your view points are 98% my thoughts on those issue's. Why casual people balk, and get defensive anytime a veteran posts asking for some challenging content outside abyssea is always amusing imo. Like having content without atmas, abyssite, and the option to "just brew it" is blasphemy. Or the usual line of "if you want a challenge just don't get atma's or buffs." Why they can't grasp the concept of killing things w/o buffs is not rewarding because those same targets are killed by people using those crutches baffles me.



I don't think I've heard anyway say the bolded complaint... if they did :( god save them.

99% of the "Casuals" you're referring too likely want fresh out-of-abyssea content as much as everyone else. We simply don't want Content that is only accessible to certain people who, face it, Live on FFXI.

We don't like Abyssea cause its "Super-Easy-Mode", We like it because its accessible and enjoyable by everyone, even if they aren't the absolute best.

For instance, I enjoyed einherjar, Because while difficult, everyone had a chance to participate. I did not like Kings because it was content not everyone could enjoy. It was a 1-a-day shot at competing for a mob. While that left a sense of "Accomplishment" in claiming/getting a drop, I don't think the game should focus around that sort of content.

You can make enjoyable, challenging, meaningful content without Atma/etc (Which i even hope they do in the future, i really do), but that hasn't been the complaint of every Anti-Abyssean person. Just like "wah i want atmas" isn't the complaint of every pro-abyssea person. I've heard a lot of complaints (not necessarily from you, or anyone in this thread) over wanting "Challenging" Content, When in reality they just want to go back to 21-24hr HNMs, Cockblocking servers, and botting it up while Afk 58 out of 60 minutes per hour "playing".

These are just examples. Old FFXI was fun, I enjoyed Nyzul, Salvage, Einherjar, Sky, Sea a lot. Some of it got boring and Tedious over time (as does everything, even Abyssea), But i also enjoy new FFXI!

I hope pretty much what you do, that down the line we have casual content, and a little difficult "hardcore" content. While i Hope hardcore content is at least widely accessible (Read: not world spawn NMs), i hope its limited too. FFXI Should appeal to both audiences, but the problem is too much of one, and one group gets angry, too much of the other, and the other group gets angry.

While i hope for balance, its hard to achieve.

[Akujima]

As a Side note, I Don't "attack" The hardcore. If you check out the "Will there be any new HNMs?" thread, I actually quite understand the ENTIRE mindset of a hardcore. Their Achievements mean nothing because everyone else can achieve it. I understand the game has lost its meaning to those types of people. However, They're no saints either. They condemn and blame casuals for every single problem in the game, and don't tend to realize that Purely "Hardcore" games suck almost as bad as "Purely casual" Games. I've always believed there needs to be a balance of Hardcore and Casual goals.

Actually, what I got from this is that you think each and every single hardcore player was a jerk, which is completely untrue. Just because someone enjoys the rarity of certain things, which would make them feel like they accomplished a daunting task, does not in anyway, mean they are a nasty person who looks down upon others. I've met many "decked out" (so to speak), players who were friendly and nice, but also had really rare equipment back in the day.

Saying that completely hardcore games suck just as much as complete casual games is another subjective term. But what I think people are confused about, is why the game suddenly took a 180 in the other direction. It feels nothing like it used to, and for some people feelings matter, even if it does involve feelings towards a game.

But I'll reiterate myself again, in that what they should have done, was keep the same style of play and added an Abyssea~like scenario for the casual gamers. A scenario that offered equal yet different rewards WITHOUT completely wiping out the previous style of play. But now the balance is tipped in favor of "the casuals", and "the hardcore" are being mostly, if not entirely left out.

There is a point to this thread, and that is to hear both sides of the story. It IS possible to make a game that caters to both the "hardcore" and "casual". In my opinion, the past days of FFXI had everything a great MMO should have, but it was just missing one piece of the puzzle. What was shocking to see, is that SE decided to do a complete overhaul and cater to the casuals, forgetting about the rest of us who already enjoyed the game the way it was.

All in all, that move from them wasn't necessary, and that's the reason I made this thread, so people can discuss their personal views about where the game is going. If that's not important, then I don't know what is.

[Karbuncle]

Actually, what I got from this is that you think each and every single hardcore player was a jerk, which is completely untrue. Just because someone enjoys the rarity of certain things, which would make them feel like they accomplished a daunting task, does not in anyway, mean they are a nasty person who looks down upon others. I've met many "decked out" (so to speak), players who were friendly and nice, but also had really rare equipment back in the day.

Saying that completely hardcore games suck just as much as complete casual games is another subjective term. But what I think people are confused about, is why the game suddenly took a 180 in the other direction. It feels nothing like it used to, and for some people feelings matter, even if it does involve feelings towards a game.

But I'll reiterate myself again, in that what they should have done, was keep the same style of play and added an Abyssea~like scenario for the casual gamers. A scenario that offered equal yet different rewards WITHOUT completely wiping out the previous style of play. But now the balance is tipped in favor of the casuals, and "the hardcore" are being mostly, if not entirely left out.

There is a point to this thread, and that is to hear both sides of the story. It IS possible to make a game that caters to both the "hardcore" and "casual". In my opinion, the past days of FFXI had everything a great MMO should have, but it was just missing one piece of the puzzle. What was shocking to see, is that SE decided to do a complete overhaul and cater to the casuals, forgetting about the rest of us who already enjoyed the game the way it was.

All in all, that move from them wasn't necessary, and that's the reason I made this thread, so people can discuss their personal views about where the game is going. If that's not important, then I don't know what is.

Then you're wrong.

Cause I considered myself "Hardcore" too way back when. Before i got a job/life/etc, I played like, almost every waking moment. Levels multiple jobs and was almost always doing some event (Limbus, Sky, Sea, Etc).

Now a days thats changed. Frankly, If you thought i was saying that, you clearly missed Raenryong's post, Cause hes actually saying that. I don't think all Hard-core people are bad players, Sure, Most of you don't help your case when your first response to a negative comment is a report or rage-fest explosion of text passively aggressivly blaming Causuals for everything, epitome of hypocrisy if i do say so myself.

(not that you're doing that right now, but in this thread, look through it, may have missed some of it.)

So yah, Thats not what I'm saying at all. If it came off that way, I'll word it better next time.

[Anewie]

Anewie,

Love your posts in this thread. Your view points are 98% my thoughts on those issue's. Why casual people balk, and get defensive anytime a veteran posts asking for some challenging content outside abyssea is always amusing imo. Like having content without atmas, abyssite, and the option to "just brew it" is blasphemy. Or the usual line of "if you want a challenge just don't get atma's or buffs." Why they can't grasp the concept of killing things w/o buffs is not rewarding because those same targets are killed by people using those crutches baffles me.

I certainly hope when 99 hits there will be a two tiered option for End Game the way Einherjar was to kings. Only this would be geared toward Casual/hardcore. Hopefully it can be implemented simultaneously, and not retroactively this time around. I am very happy that casual gamers have had the option to experience more of the game. I have helped many, and accepted a decent amount into my linkshell over the past 7 months.

That being said. The game itself just isn't as rewarding as it used to be. Sure gearing out my jobs, and my members is cool. Although none of it feels like it was an accomplishment. While casual players are basking in this now, because they were denied that for years they fail to realize they are headed to the same conclusion as vets who are bored. With the easy mode floodgate wide open it is only a matter of time (not as long as u think either) till they have geared their jobs, and find the abyssea/TotM are not as fun when you have everything you wanted already.

Considering SE is trying to re use as much as possible I still hope they will incorporate a new, and improved PvP. The time, and resources spent on say converting the coliseum in WG to a PvP arena would continue to pay dividends far into the future. People who have all the gear they want and sit aimlessly in town, or staring at their moogle spin would always have the option to do that. It doesn't need "elite" gear as rewards. Could be as simple as fancy town gear, and furnishings that are only obtainable from there. Being able to go participate in or just go watch/bet on 1vs1 or 3vs3 & 6vs6 matches would be great entertainment.

I am keeping an optimistic outlook that SE will incorporate both the Pvp, and a two tiered difficulty option for the 99 End game experience. However if at least one of these options doesn't materialize when we cross that bridge I don't see vets sticking around, and casual gamers will not be far behind. Once they've exhausted the things to do, and gear to obtain because everything is handed out like door prizes nowadays.

I know I personally have no desire to begin a new MMO ff14 included. Even if it hadn't been released in the horrific state it was, and was a solid product it would make no difference. I <3 FFXI, and have put many years/effort into it. With any luck SE will see that catering to one side or the other was never the correct methodology. There needs to be content for everyone to enjoy, and take pride in. /crosses fingers

I really believe the people who are getting defensive, are typically people and players who aren't just casual but not very good players in general. Not very good meaning, they are unable to play any job, let alone their main job, with any amount of focus or dedication. When events are mindless, (which is fun sometimes, which is whyy i continue to support abyssea) it really makes no difference how a person is really playing. I personally don't have a real issue with brews. I might make jokes and etc to prove my point about how mindless and effortless it is, but brews are part of abyssea.

Abyssea was meant, to be mindless and effortless. It was for UNDER-casuals. I'mma call them that now. Getting gear ina byssea wasn't supposed to be "omg i accomplished this." These rewards were meant for the under-casuals who had long been shafted from the HNM scene and various endgame activities. I actually support brewing/afking/sucking/idkwtfim doing in abyssea.

That, to me, is what made abyssea so refreshing and cool. I have a life too. I can't always devote time to doing thing's that require lots of time. When I had the time, I'd make time for my goals. Sometimes though, I'd just like to mess around and RELAX without focusing or being dedicated, WHILE still getting some neat toys.

My issue and the issue with 80-90% of BG (this is based on observation, not facts) is that after 9 abyssea zones, there is no new real endgame content still. The game atm is basically a walk to lvl30 and then in my honest opinion, its just mindless content from there. Sure, u can exp the normal way (oh wait, no u cant really, because no one really parties outside) or chose to do everything the more difficult way. That however, doesnt make you a better player, it just means you're retarded.

Do I want content Karbuncle can't do!!!? Or not have access too!?!? No.. Idc about other players who aren't interested in what I'm interested. OMG you're having fun and just LOVE only doing abyssea and shooting through things. K. Well just an fyi, I enjoy that content too.

Another thing to note to all the people who keeps saying "the game was inaccessable at 75!". Get a clue. The only thing inaccessable was HNMs and HNMs outside trophy stuff and enjoying camping, meant almost nothing. Einherjar,salvage,nyzul assaults and every other "endgame" activity was more than accessable.


The problem was not accessability. The problem was, people who weren't good players, who could focus (notice i said, could. It doesnt mean they had to play ffxi like a job) didn't get in groups and they didn't get gear. They didn't get the rewards because of they didn't try or care too. That's the only logical explination for not doing any of the many very accessable and casual events.

Abyssea isnt just a casual event, it allows you to gain rewards and gear even when you are terrible, obnoxious and dont know wtf. Before at 75, even in freakin dynamis, you had to focus somewhat and couldn't just do silly things if yo wanted to survive. Abyssea is a double edged sword in that, sure, its nice and all but it promotes sucking basically. It encourages it. Did we need any event like this? I'd say yes based on the fact that even the casual stuff at 75, u had to focus. Even the best groups couldnt just stroll through dyna xarc and afk whenever. Its very "hand-it-you" content. It just is.

There are 9 abyssea zones. If you are just so terrible, and you have such a hard life.. That you can't do anything in game that requires the same amount of focus and strategic effort that is equivalent to salvage, dynamis, einherjar, nyzul isk @ 75, then really... Enjoy the nine zones.


You can label it inaccessable, blame cheaters or your irl but those are scapegoats for the fact that you have no drive, no ambition, you probably aren't a very skilled player (i say that respectfully) and you're not a team player. You don't work well on your job or in groups, and you simply don't want content that requires you to do so.


Fact check, some of us want to try and feel accomplished. It has nothing to do with wanting to better than you. We don't care about you. You care about us.

[Olor]

I don't think I've heard anyway say the bolded complaint... if they did :( god save them.


Yeah I would like to see a quote there... heck I know (since I haven't really even done Abyssea) that I certainly didn't say anything like that.

I do think casual players balk at scarce developer resources (and our monthly fees) being used to create elitist content that is only used by a small portion of the playerbase though. Those aren't the same thing.

Again, all the content that people think is so much better than Abyssea still exists - so I don't get why people who think it is so much better don't just go and do that.

Oh, actually, I do get why.

It is because they know damn well that salvage, Ein. etc. isn't anymore difficult than Abyssea - they only hate Abyssea because everyone has a shot at getting nice gear now, and they no longer have special shinys to set themselves apart from the scrubs.

Sorry, I have no sympathy for that.

I don't care about Abyssea as such (ie. Atmas, brews/whatever) but I do strongly oppose going back to the bad old days when most players who paid for the game could only dream of getting the opportunity to join an endgame shell so they could slave away on someone else's relic.

[Karbuncle]

Lies.

Continually mentioning me in all your post in a passive aggressive crazy server-jumping way doesn't help your case in the least bit. It makes you look like a psychopath who can't let things go. I don't feel i've warranted that yet, have i?

Plus, after reading this little rant, I can safely say now you haven't read a single thing I've posted, Or you just have terrible reading comprehension. Cause nothing you mention even remotely reflects what i've said to this point.

I thought i made it clear that a balance of Hardcore, and Causal content, leads to an Ideal game. its simply hard to maintain that balance accurately. My only gripe about old-FFXI was Ground Kings, Everything else was just peachy.

I want difficult content, I just dont want content were certain people won't be able to enjoy it. I don't think this is your view, but i can actively enjoy content even if other people can enjoy it. I can get armor and be happy even if other people have that armor.

There can be fun, challenging content, without the need to limit how many people can realistically achieve it (I.e Ground kings bad - Einherjar good).

You haven't mentioned Kings as far as i know, i Just wanted to really drill it in the only real thing i hated about old FFXI was World Spawn HNMs, the other systems at least gave people oppurtunities to participate every day, regardless of "Compitetion". .

[RaenRyong]

Casual players don't have full +2 sets often, nor Empyreans, nor multiple full +2 sets ... etc.

Hardcore players are still allowed to excel, just not in having special "I botted this" drops like Ridill. You just end up further along a line of progression that everyone is on.

[Anewie]

Continually mentioning me in all your post in a passive aggressive crazy server-jumping way doesn't help your case in the least bit. It makes you look like a psychopath who can't let things go. Really, Its a bit on the insane side?

Plus, after reading this little rant, I can safely say now you haven't read a single GD thing I've posted, Or you just have terrible reading comprehension. Cause nothing you mention even remotely reflects what i've said to this point.

I thought i made it clear that a balance of Hardcore, and Causal content, leads to an Ideal game. its simply hard to maintain that balance accurately. My only gripe about old-FFXI was Ground Kings, Everything else was just peachy.

You really shouldn't get so mad D:! Try and cheer up! We're just having a friendly debate here^^;

[Karbuncle]

You really shouldn't get so mad D:! Try and cheer up! We're just having a friendly debate here^^;

Sounds a little more like Mockery than friendly debate.

Friendly debate does not including parroting my responses back and me then taking jabs at me in responses to other people :|

That, or you have some really mean friends.

Edit: Also, I edited my response a bit. you should read the rest of it, it might let you know my point of view a bit more. I'm beginning to understand yours at least though.

[Olor]

Casual players don't have full +2 sets often, nor Empyreans, nor multiple full +2 sets ... etc.

Hardcore players are still allowed to excel, just not in having special "I botted this" drops like Ridill. You just end up further along a line of progression that everyone is on.

Yeah I second this. Heck the people in my LS barely do Abyssea at all and I don't think anyone has a full set of upgraded Emp. gear or an upgraded emp weapon.

Now, if hardcore folks went and burned through all the content in Abyssea and are burned out on it now and are complaining that the devs didn't make it a bigger time sink or whatever... all I can say is "boo hoo."

Those of us that can't play a game 24/7 shouldn't be forced to spend every hour of spare time we have in every day to make reasonable advances in a video game. It isn't fun. I know I wouldn't pay for it.

Those with enough time on their hands to have every emp they want in the game already might want to play two MMOs at once to get enough content to keep themselves busy - I don't know. Either that or go find a Korean grinder to play.

[Akujima]

I want difficult content, I just dont want content were certain people won't be able to enjoy it. I don't think this is your view, but i can actively enjoy content even if other people can enjoy it. I can get armor and be happy even if other people have that armor.

If there is one thing we have learned from this thread, is that this statement right here is not 100% possible.

Why? Because as is happening already, "the hardcore" (we'll refer to them as such in order to save time) are complaining about too much casual content. And in the past, "the casuals" (also referring them as such to save time) complained about hardcore content such as Ground Kings.

In reality, you're not going to hear the end of it from one side or another.

There will always be SOME amount of complaints from "the hardcore" about the casuals "just being noobs cuz they can't kill K.Behemoth"

And there will always be SOME amount of complaints from "the casuals" about the hardcore "being pampered with all the endgame content, I don't have the time for!"

How to make balance is this. (Please read this, 'cause I actually think there is some valid points in here)

Let's go back to Endgame 75 for a moment. We had events like Ground Kings (hardcore) Einherjar, Salvage, Sea, Sky (mediocre hardcore) Limbus, Dynamis, Nyzul Isle (mediocre casual) and Campaign and Leveling Up (casual)

The problem here is that, the most "hardcore events" yielded the most powerful rewards. And it wasn't even close to comparison. The casuals who were being left out of "hardcore events" were denied a ton of cool equipment. But there IS a solution to this problem.

My solution is this.

Keep events like Ground Kings for the "hardcores", BUT make event's like Abyssea that exists side-by-side for the casuals. All the while you can keep events that are similar to Nyzul Isle and Limbus for the "mediocre" players who enjoy a bit of a challenge, that is also casual at the same time.

But what you do with rewards is this. You make all the rewards from each of these play areas Equal BUT at the same time Different. They will be all Equally powerful, but just have different stats that play differently from each other.

Example: From events that are "Hardcore" you have a Bow that has Ranged Attack with AGI, and from events that are "Casual" you have a Bow that has Ranged Accuracy with STR. (of course this is just a rough example to show the basic idea of what I'm trying to point out)

If this happened. You will still hear complaints from both sides, but not as much as you would if there was no equal catering such as the example given above. "The hardcore" will still complain about "the casuals" being able to get awesome gear from stuff they think isn't very difficult. And "the casuals" will complain about not being able to get awesome gear from stuff they think, requires too much time and effort than they can afford to put into a game.

But the plus side to all this would be, that "the hardcore" will still be able to do "casual content" and experience the game the way they want to AND "the casuals" will be able to be geared enough from doing "the casual events", so that IF they decided to try out a "hardcore event" they would be able to do so.

Hope that wasn't confusing, but I'll be overlooking and editing this post again.

[Anewie]

Sounds a little more like Mockery than friendly debate.

Friendly debate does not including parroting my responses back and me then taking jabs at me in responses to other people :|

That, or you have some really mean friends.

Edit: Also, I edited my response a bit. you should read the rest of it, it might let you know my point of view a bit more. I'm beginning to understand yours at least though.

You're not the first person to say the things i type some off as mega *** and rude. Almost every forum ive ever been on says that same thing. I apologize if its too harsh or rude. I'ts not personal and I'm not by any means upset or stressed. I come off very stern and direct. Some would say i'm a matriarch or a ***. My comments were rude and insensetive and I apologize.

You and me aren't the same type of player, but honestly our views aren't totally different. Just our priorities with the game. I'm not an elitest but I have a habit of always striving for the absolute best. I'm not dissatisfied with being equal to others but i have more fun in game always striving for the best and being the best player I can. It's not so relaxing i suppose but its fun! My husband loves abyssea. He can't get enough!


I love you Akuji! You're spot on! Room for everyone!

[Karbuncle]

You're not the first person to say the things i type some off as mega *** and rude. Almost every forum ive ever been on says that same thing. I apologize if its too harsh or rude. I'ts not personal and I'm not by any means upset or stressed. I come off very stern and direct. Some would say i'm a matriarch or a ***. My comments were rude and insensetive and I apologize.

You and me aren't the same type of player, but honestly our views aren't totally different. Just our priorities with the game. I'm not an elitest but I have a habit of always striving for the absolute best. I'm not dissatisfied with being equal to others but i have more fun in game always striving for the best and being the best player I can. It's not so relaxing i suppose but its fun! My husband loves abyssea. He can't get enough! >.>

I'm the same way >__>?

My goal has always been to play each of my jobs in the best way. When i feel a job i have isn't the best, I try not to play it until I get better gear for it.

Recently i was forced on RDM and BLU, two jobs i'm not greatly geared on, While i enjoy the jobs, I hate walking around in "gimp" armor, even though it doesn't entirely matter.

That being said, i reiterate, My goal is to be the best. Ever since day 1 my goal has been to be the best THF possible, I'm working on that goal, and will continue too until content dies out.

[Anewie]

I'm the same way >__>?

My goal has always been to play each of my jobs in the best way. When i feel a job i have isn't the best, I try not to play it until I get better gear for it.

Recently i was forced on RDM and BLU, two jobs i'm not greatly geared on, While i enjoy the jobs, I hate walking around in "gimp" armor, even though it doesn't entirely matter.

That being said, i reiterate, My goal is to be the best. Ever since day 1 my goal has been to be the best THF possible, I'm working on that goal, and will continue too until content dies out.


Apologies, I worded it in the wrong place. Makes it look like im assuming those aren't your priorities.
Also akuji, u should report whatever loser put that tag up. It's getting really immature. One things for sure, players still have no respect for eachother.

[Akujima]

Apologies, I worded it in the wrong place. Makes it look like im assuming those aren't your priorities. Also akuji, u should report whatever loser put that tag up. It's getting really immature. One things for sure, players still have no respect for eachother.

It's ok, it's bound to happen, but I'll leave the tags up. I'm not the type of person who gets offended easily or reports others so quickly. If anything, it is just proof of their immaturity, so it's kind of like they're insulting themselves lol.

PS. I love you too, and I don't think your posts are that harsh. But people are generally afraid of someone with strength of character^^<3

And...

@Karbuncle. Please take a look at my post before this one. Don't you think that would be a good idea?

[Karbuncle]

Well, Kinda. The idea of Balanced Casual and Hardcore content is truly ideal. But the problem is, if Casual content is met with equal rewards, The hardcore will complain the "hard way" should have better rewards.

If the Hardcore Rewards are better than Casual contents, Casuals will complain they're stuck with mediocre crap because they don't have the time/etc to do Hardcore Content.

Even though, in theory, more effort should = More Reward.

Its a tough call labeling something Hard-core. I personally thought Einherjar was "hardcore" due to its difficulty, not many "noob groups" Could tackle it, it took decent people. While some people only consider 21-24hr Kings "Hard-core".

The problem is, what would be labeled as "Hardcore", if its an Event like Einherjar, Thats actually great, because even though its difficult, its Available to everyone, any time of the day.

Like i said earlier, I want difficulty to, Its just i want Difficulty in the fight, not difficulty getting to fight it. (i.E claiming).

[Eeek]

Casual players don't have full +2 sets often, nor Empyreans, nor multiple full +2 sets ... etc.

Hardcore players are still allowed to excel, just not in having special "I botted this" drops like Ridill. You just end up further along a line of progression that everyone is on.

Yep.

The better/harcore players on my server are definitely ahead of me, and I'm perfectly fine with that. I accomplish what I can given real life constraints. What I *** love about Abyssea is that the best gear is accessible to everyone who wishes to pursue it. Very strong gear is very available.

I don't have an Empyrean, and I doubt I'll have one before 2012 rolls around. That's fine. I have the WoE Empyrean dagger along with about 10-12 other Magian daggers and staves, each one of them being a powerful weapon in their own right.

I don't have a single full set of AF3+2 gear. That's fine. I complete what I can, and as of this post, that I have 12 pieces of +2 gear: 4/5 DNC, 3/5 THF, 3/5 RDM, and 2/5 BLM. This is not impressive at all to hardcore players, but still a sizable number of players would love to be in my shoes.

I have lots of assorted r/ex drops from Abyssea ranging from an Atheling Mantle to a Hecate's Earring. I don't have all of the best gear, but I do have some of it.

I'll never have the best-equipped or best-played job on Asura. Ever. But I do aim to play and gear my jobs well, and that I can accomplish. They're all above average, solidly geared, and always improving. I'm happy with my progression thus far.

I greatly hope that, in the future, the vast majority of the game's content will be as accessible as Abyssea for players like me.

[Anewie]

Well, Kinda. The idea of Balanced Casual and Hardcore content is truly ideal. But the problem is, if Casual content is met with equal rewards, The hardcore will complain the "hard way" should have better rewards.

If the Hardcore Rewards are better than Casual contents, Casuals will complain they're stuck with mediocre crap because they don't have the time/etc to do Hardcore Content.

Even though, in theory, more effort should = More Reward.

Its a tough call labeling something Hard-core. I personally thought Einherjar was "hardcore" due to its difficulty, not many "noob groups" Could tackle it, it took decent people. While some people only consider 21-24hr Kings "Hard-core".

The problem is, what would be labeled as "Hardcore", if its an Event like Einherjar, Thats actually great, because even though its difficult, its Available to everyone, any time of the day.

Like i said earlier, I want difficulty to, Its just i want Difficulty in the fight, not difficulty getting to fight it. (i.E claiming).

agreed. Einherjar was hardcore but it was also casual too. I liked how quick it went. I remember dynamis gather/entry/stay time could get very boring. Einherjwas very quick-and-easy type stuff even if you timed out. Most people timed out as sopposed to wiping.
I miss einherjar and salvage more than anything.

[Olor]

Yep.

The better/harcore players on my server are definitely ahead of me, and I'm perfectly fine with that. I accomplish what I can given real life constraints. What I *** love about Abyssea is that the best gear is accessible to everyone who wishes to pursue it. Very strong gear is very available.



This is exactly how I feel. I have no problem with people who have played longer/who play more having better gear than I do. They always have and always will be better geared than I am.

I do have a problem with not being able to pursue the best gear in the game at all.

[Olor]

I miss einherjar and salvage more than anything.

They haven't gone anywhere...

[Akujima]

Like i said earlier, I want difficulty to, Its just i want Difficulty in the fight, not difficulty getting to fight it. (i.E claiming).

Ok I agree with this as well. Claiming probably was annoying after doing it for years and years. But it still doesn't mean that there can't be SOME claiming type battles going on (for whoever liked going AFK to watch a movie between fights, or whatnot). I don't really consider botters, because cheating isn't in my vocabulary. But making the drops rare/ex was a smart move from SE to stop RMT, eventually lowering the amount of bots as well.

The gear issue would be solved by tipping the scale VERY slightly and offering something different. Something like WoW PvP Gear sets. There was an equally good set designed for Player Vs Player combat, but it had "PvP Stats" that made it more useful to players who wanted to PvP often. And then there was a Raiding Gear Set, that was designed for PvE combat.

But the same is possible for FFXI. You give the Casuals gear that works well while solo'ing/duo'ing/trio'ing in their casual content areas, but is not so crappy that hardcore players would never invite them to their events. Hardcore players would still be able to get all the content that is available to the casuals, and the casuals will still be on par with the hardcore players when it comes to gear types.

The only thing that would be different is that the casuals won't be penalized for not being able to put in long hours at 1 single time.

And what I mean by "Hardcore" is events that take more than a PT of 6 to complete. AND are difficult battles even with 18 people. I think the problem of the past was not the type of gear that these events/bosses dropped, it was how frequently you could attempt them AND how much stuff they dropped, just didn't satisfy all 18 people who came to the event.

I really believe this is possible, to have Equipment that is Equal in Power, yet Different Enough so that there is merit in having either/or for whatever situation or play style you prefer.

[HFX7686]

Casual players always want what hardcore players have without doing the work.

You can add all kinds of casual/solo events with gear that is almost as good as what the hardcore players have and the casual players will still be upset because they don't have what the hardcore players have (without doing the work).

The game right now is really well balanced in terms of casual and hardcore players. Hardcore players have a lot of Abyssea gear finished. Casual players have a few pieces of Abyssea gear finished but still have the opportunity to complete more.

I remember old FF11. I started playing a couple months after NA release. It was slow, annoying, and had me awake at 4am to try to claim Nidhogg against 200 other people doing the same thing. I don't want it back.

[Karbuncle]

Casual players always want what hardcore players have without doing the work.

You can add all kinds of casual/solo events with gear that is almost as good as what the hardcore players have and the casual players will still be upset because they don't have what the hardcore players have (without doing the work).

The game right now is really well balanced in terms of casual and hardcore players. Hardcore players have a lot of Abyssea gear finished. Casual players have a few pieces of Abyssea gear finished but still have the opportunity to complete more.

I remember old FF11. I started playing a couple months after NA release. It was slow, annoying, and had me awake at 4am to try to claim Nidhogg against 200 other people doing the same thing. I don't want it back.

That is simply just not true. At least not about anyone who has posted here.

We don't want all the gear hardcores have with no effort, We want content that we can access when we want. We want challenges from FFXI that we can experience. We don't want Systems like Kings where the challenge is the claim, not the fight. Or content where if you lose claim, You don't get to participate or enjoy what that content had to offer until the next window, so long as it doesn't interfere with work, School, or your sleep schedule.

We want content that while challenging, difficult, and enjoyable, is accessible by everyone. Events like Einherjar, While challenging, was still available to all players to participate in when their schedule allowed, not when its window was up.

[Akujima]

...We don't want all the gear hardcores have with no effort, We want content that we can access when we want. We want challenges from FFXI that we can experience...

...Events like Einherjar, While challenging, was still available to all players to participate in when their schedule allowed, not when its window was up.

Like I said before. We won't stop hearing the complaining from BOTH sides. The only solution is to find a healthy balance between the two.

In my personal opinion, Abyssea does not "feel" difficult in areas at all. Instead it feels like a time sink with the illusion of progression. Battles are watered down in difficulty, and getting better gear just makes these battles even simpler, without adding many awesome, super powerful, well thought out, boss battles that actually require good gear in the first place.

Abyssea feels like a farm-fest, where people go shopping for equipment. But events like Nyzul Isle took some practice and teamwork to climb those floors. The problem with FFXI of the past is that, most SUPER powered up rewards came from "Hardcore Time Sinks" and not so much from actually "Hardcore Challenging Events" that required teamwork and rewarded more than just a few players who put time and effort into it.

Difficulty Level and Time Sinks are two very different things.

[HFX7686]

That is simply just not true. At least not about anyone who has posted here.

We don't want all the gear hardcores have with no effort, We want content that we can access when we want. We want challenges from FFXI that we can experience. We don't want Systems like Kings where the challenge is the claim, not the fight. Or content where if you lose claim, You don't get to participate or enjoy what that content had to offer until the next window, so long as it doesn't interfere with work, School, or your sleep schedule.

We want content that while challenging, difficult, and enjoyable, is accessible by everyone. Events like Einherjar, While challenging, was still available to all players to participate in when their schedule allowed, not when its window was up.

That's why I wrote the second half of my post. I don't think it's a good idea to put in events that are so exclusive as to stop certain players from doing it or events that give consolation prizes that won't quite be good as the hardcore player gear. Casuals will still complain that that gear isn't good enough. Make events that are accessible to everyone.

[Karbuncle]

That's why I wrote the second half of my post. I don't think it's a good idea to put in events that are so exclusive as to stop certain players from doing it or events that give consolation prizes that won't quite be good as the hardcore player gear. Casuals will still complain that that gear isn't good enough. Make events that are accessible to everyone.

Yah. Its a half motto of mine, but i believe people will always complain.

Which is why i also advocate a balance implied. However when it comes to rewards, there also needs to be balance in those.

its a very difficult job.

[Anathiel]

Don't know about decline...I came back after a 3 year break and I love the new direction. Just wish I had more time now a days to do more. Oh well. And yeah, i'd like more casual content, but its not really an issue for me. I just plan a Saturday or Sunday to be hardcore lol. Trying to get caladbolg is proving to be a little painful, but I think I'm just gonna drop the crests for a penitenance +2 (for my drk that is)

Edit: in the last month I've had 4 friends come back to the game...and they love the new game direction as well.

[Yopop]

I remember always being someone who would dispute that the game was heading down a rocky path. I went around digging up numbers of subscriptions and searching up investor memos to prove it.

But to be honest I give the game a couple more years and it'll be a memory. In television the moves that SE are making to FFXI are considered "Jumping the Shark" .. it's a last ditch effort to avoid cancellation.

The things that made Final Fantasy ... Final Fantasy ... are slowly disappearing. It takes no effort to do anything now. I realized this when I returned and soloed BST from 75-90 outside of Abyssea and then King B was up and I soloed him with 4 pets. It wasn't fun or exciting I was sending tells to people basically saying "are you kidding me"

The biggest broken part of this game is that it takes no effort to do anything so building social links in the game are no longer there. The ties that keep people playing years are gone.

The path of a rare "new player" is one who joins the game and is level 11 in around 15 mins ( confused and getting bored ) finds a player to encourage them to dunes where they join a party ( 95% chance it has a Power Level ).. where they are level 20+ in an hour or two.. ( no concept of their job ) .. they ask around to get help with sub job and repeat the cycle.. ( still little understanding of the game and already in their 20s ) ... they head to Jeuno where they catch a Qufim party .. ( they stay there til 30+ usually ).. they see all these people talking about Abyssea so now they are getting annoyed because they want to be 90 so they shout and shout to be a key person because people told them that's what you do now a days..

They get a spot and reach 90 in about a week of starting the game... they have little to no understanding of the game.. good chance they built no social ties in the game.. they are now 90 in a job they aren't sure how to play in a game they are extremely new to... they get frustrated because no one will help them on the servers where they are 300-1500 players average during a day to do every aspect of the game so they unsubscribe and say screw it.

there's no walls to slow down these players and SE obviously wants them to level faster. I think their target now is to get atleast 1 month subscription out of people before they get bored and quit or try to get them to forget they are sub'ed and get the roll over subscriptions :)

sadly there's no game anymore. It's a broken social network with no real substance anymore. I was so excited about the upcoming world mergers but a lot of the players are quitting when it happens because they are bored with the ease of the game. There's no challenge anymore. And to those that think there is.. that's great that this is a challenge but it's literally one gold medal and a red helmet away from being the special olympics of mmorpg

[Supersun]

The difficulty is certainly there. It's just buried under 200k brews. Just imagine though that you had to fight Rani or Shinryu without a brew. Yeah, that would be a plenty difficult fight. It was just the brew that made it easy mode.

Now we are in a position where they are making NEW NMs outside of abyssea where you can't just pop a brew and easy button something. As long as they make some of the new monsters equivalent to Rani or Shinryu then if anything we'll have players screaming the opposite that things are too hard. I expect some of these 6 man new BCNM fights to be plenty difficult (or course this is all meaningless if there aren't ample rewards behind them).

[Ravenmore]

Seen more people quit over the grind back in the day then today. If the exp outside of abyssea was around 6 years ago this game would be better off. SE won't up and turn off the servers they already made back thier investment if anything SE will keep merging servers. Then if it gets to the point were profit from the last 2 or 3 servers no longer supports the cost to keep them up then they will pull the plug.

[Olor]

The path of a rare "new player" is one who joins the game and is level 11 in around 15 mins ( confused and getting bored ) finds a player to encourage them to dunes where they join a party ( 95% chance it has a Power Level ).. where they are level 20+ in an hour or two.. ( no concept of their job ) .. they ask around to get help with sub job and repeat the cycle.. ( still little understanding of the game and already in their 20s ) ... they head to Jeuno where they catch a Qufim party .. ( they stay there til 30+ usually ).. they see all these people talking about Abyssea so now they are getting annoyed because they want to be 90 so they shout and shout to be a key person because people told them that's what you do now a days..




You're trolling. I'm a reroller (so I actually have a lot of knowledge a total noob wouldn't) and it took me more than a month to get to 66. Getting to 90 in a week is not going to be possible for a utter noob who logs in not knowing anyone. I mean maybe it is statistically possible that 1 in 10,000 noobs will meet a bunch of level 90s when they first start who want nothing more than to steamroll them to 90, but yeah, unlikely.

I have a linkshell that is people I've known for quite awhile who have helped me out a lot. I even found a mog tablet on my first day back and got a lot of free exp from it. But, don't be ridiculous. No utter noobs are getting to 90 in a week.

Hell, I can't even figure out my way into Abyssea even WITH friends and at level 66 - let alone keywhoring on my first job to 30.

[Aliekber]

Hell, I can't even figure out my way into Abyssea even WITH friends and at level 66 - let alone keywhoring on my first job to 30.

I hope you're at least stockpiling stones for when you do decide to venture into Abyssea.

[Olor]

I hope you're at least stockpiling stones for when you do decide to venture into Abyssea.

Oh yeah, I picked up the first x-pac as soon as I hit 30. I have something like 70 stones already saved up.

[Leonlionheart]

Karbuncle's and Raenryong's posts pretty much sum everything up, and those arguing against them are quite delusional if you ask me.

We want accessible content, which King HNMs are not. I also don't believe that needing 18+ people for an event makes it accessible, (75 cap Dynamis, Einherjar, ZNM at a certain stage, Sea at a certain stage, etc).

Yeah, cheap brews are pretty lol and make gear that would otherwise be rare rather common (Zelus Tiara, Twilight gear, Epona's ring). Other than that I don't see where the "QQ ABYSSEA SO EASY" is coming from in heroes zones, sure some mobs are easy, but most are challenging enough to have you second guessing every other pop. As for Visions and Scars, low level content is always easier.

[Akujima]

I expect some of these 6 man new BCNM fights to be plenty difficult (or course this is all meaningless if there aren't ample rewards behind them).

And it's exactly this mindset that is becoming a major problem for MMO's in general.

Now instead of the reward being one of teamwork and accomplishment (intangible things) to down a difficult boss, has turned into a cry out for bigger, better, cooler looking equipment/accessories. True satisfaction seems to be the real problem. Which is why I will always lean towards the side of the "Hardcore Players". At least some of them have a sense of what it means to achieve something for themselves and teammates, rather than have it handed to them on a silver platter.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying to completely get rid of bosses dropping "phat lewt", just simply pointing out where the majority of the focus has shifted towards.

It's sad to see, that such things are fading from the real world and now the game world. But things like teamwork and friendship was the idea from Square, when they decided to let the Japanese and English Speaking players play on the same servers. Noble actions like this, hold much more reward than any item ever could.

[Olor]

Get real, people have always only done content if they can see a benefit in it (or a benefit to one of their friends). Name one NM which drops nothing but garbage that anyone will hunt down regularly just for fun.

That doesn't devalue friendship and teamwork - but the game and every game like it is focused around friendship and teamwork in a way that revolves around achieving goals.

The reason why people don't do old content like Assault and campaign much anymore is the reward to effort ratio is too low compared to other things people could be doing.

Most of us play to have fun, but the fun is not just being with friends - what makes it epic is achieving goals.

[RaenRyong]

Now instead of the reward being one of teamwork and accomplishment (intangible things) to down a difficult boss, has turned into a cry out for bigger, better, cooler looking equipment/accessories. True satisfaction seems to be the real problem. Which is why I will always lean towards the side of the "Hardcore Players". At least some of them have a sense of what it means to achieve something for themselves and teammates, rather than have it handed to them on a silver platter.

So these "hardcore" players pre-Abyssea would go and kill Vrtra and Jormungand regularly right? After all, these two fights are the epitome of "challenging fight, terrible reward". Were unclaimed Vrtras or Jorms a rare sight on any server, ever?

The focus and the driving motivation between any event in FFXI has always been the reward at the end. Of course you grow as a team and there is a great sense of satisfaction if you vanquish a particularly difficult adversary, but these are secondary bonuses. Without good rewards, nobody wants to do these fights and this is not a phenomenon that has suddenly occurred with the advent of Abyssea.

On a side note with Shinryu, I would hate this fight so much if it wasn't brewable. The droprates on the gear are ridiculous and though my record is an anomaly, requiring 6 people to engage in a challenging BC all for a tiny shot at a good piece of gear which they will all want is absolutely sadistic game design. I refuse to believe SE designed Shinryu with anything but mass brewing in mind. Personally, don't get me wrong - I'd prefer they made him unbrewable and instead you get a choice of his gear each time you kill him, but hey.

[Akujima]

So these "hardcore" players pre-Abyssea would go and kill Vrtra and Jormungand regularly right?

You're picking out part of my post and not referring to other things I said in it. So I'll reiterate.

I'm not saying to completely get rid of bosses dropping "phat lewt", just simply pointing out where the majority of the focus has shifted towards.

It's not my fault that SE decided to sweep the current problems under the rug, regarding various NM's, spawn timers and whatever crap is in their drop table. What I AM saying, is that they decided to run away from solving the problems they already had, and create more with Abyssea. And I understand that you don't see Abyssea as a problem, but some of us do. Just because you don't give a $#!% about DEPTH and DYNAMICS, doesn't mean that others share similar thoughts.

Telling us hogwash such as "If you want more difficulty, then go fight Shinryu without a brew", implies that we're completely retarded. The fact that brew is even available, means that bosses are just going to be cakewalk, and why WOULDN'T we take advantage of this?

But realize this. That everyone who quit because they figured out Abyssea is just a farm fest for casual "mall-rats", is not bothering with these forums. They know it's just people crying to the Dev's, about how much faster/easier things should be obtained/accomplished.

[Ravenmore]

I'm finding this interesting. Like how every generation sees a distant time as a golden era were things had more meaning or value, when in fact its not the case.

[Leonlionheart]

But realize this. That everyone who quit because they figured out Abyssea is just a farm fest for casual "mall-rats", is not bothering with these forums. They know it's just people crying to the Dev's, about how much faster/easier things should be obtained/accomplished.

It's the same with most of the casuals, there's only a slight few who actually post in a forum compared to those that view it in the first place, and there are even less people who care about these forums at all rather than just stay in the game.

Yeah, there are a lot of people who quit because of abyssea and level cap raise. But there are a CRAP TON MORE that started playing again because of all this new wondrous stuff. And then there's always the declining rate at which FFXI loses players because it's a really old game, and has freaking horrible advertising so there's not much influx of new players.

[thefinalrune]

After reading over several pages and doing my best to ignore any derailments from the original post I've come up with this to say and/or add in response to the initial posting.

In regards to the forums being a pure distraction to nullify or pacify players:
While there is no doubt that many, if not all, of the design elements directly in place within FFXI are there solely for the purpose of creating longer play times and extending user subscription, I sincerely doubt SE is conspiring against us to distract us from focusing on the things a lot of posters claim aren't getting done or simply brushed aside.

I very truly believe that the new heads of the development team are desperately looking into every single way possible to extend the life and maintain the subscriber base of FFXI. Its no secret how poorly FFXIV is doing, but what most people also aren't aware of, Square-Enix as a whole, while still incredibly more fiscally capable and stable than a lot of developers, is currently at an all time low in their stocks. Now, that's not to say they're dying, but they reported earning a meager 12% of their projected earnings during the last fiscal year. Even with just 100k subscribers, far far under FFXI's actual subscriber numbers, SE is still earning approximately 1-1.5 million in gross profit every month. That said, FFXI is a staple of income for the company, the last thing they would ever do is neglect, ignore or devalue its importance.


Secondly, regarding the loss of nostalgia and the changing face of FFXI's battle systems:
The OP stated here:
Slowly and slowly, the colorful battle system, (that in my opinion made FFXI the classic it is) is slowly vanishing, in favor of the "solo" mindset. You can solo to 90, you can solo Abyssea, you can solo so many things now... And that's great and all, but it really takes away from what makes a good online RPG...

Not to mention how far the difficulty level has decreased or changed. The mobs and bosses are ALOT easier. The only difficulty now is just fighting with one another on who gets to pop what first. I also hear there is a new coming idea, to make an Abyssea like scenario outside of Abyssea. Again only decreasing the difficulty level and adding further imbalance to jobs more and more.Now, I can fully sympathize with where the OP is coming from. Having joined six months before the Treasures of Aht Urgan expansion came out I am all to familiar with the way things used to be. But, on that exact same note, I am all to familiar with the way things used to be.

Try not to misunderstand me, I loved the old methods, but they were and are, redundant within the current world of FFXI. I've leveled just about every job at one time or another and played each type of party role and enjoyed just about all of them. The one thing that always stood out to me though was that while the system was enjoyable, its effort vs. reward ratio was always so defeating. The system frequently punished players that didn't want to fit into the standard preset roles the community had established as the right way or the only way in their eyes. This was of course not an issue with the community so much as the result of an unbalanced job system. There were and are to many overlapping roles.

Jobs didn't stand apart from each other enough to the point where certain jobs were ignored or forsaken in favor of easier use applications. The most prevalent example of this was post the ToAU expansion when Black Mage suddenly became a useless job as of level 55 because of the nature of the most commonly preyed on enemies. But in converse, the BLM job was highly coveted in end game scenarios, both pressuring and punishing players that wanted to level BLM.

The old system was interesting and well thought out, but in my opinion it was far from nostalgia worthy with its limitations on user friendliness.


Which brings me to the first part of the OP's conclusion:
What I'm saying is. Actually listen to peoples ideas. Give us FUN things, not just empty promises and false hopes. Give us a difficulty level where we feel a sense of accomplishment and teamwork after downing a boss, or completing a tough quest. Give us LESS of this annoying grind and bland tasteless jobs that play very similar to one another.Fun things are so subjective. The best example I can offer to the futility of adding in fun things are the endless cycle of seasonal events. No doubt at one time or another any player that's been subscribing for more than a year has already participated in and taken to completion every seasonal event that they felt had use to them. But, what do we do when these events come around the next time? How many of us find the repetition of these at one time new and fun events to still hold any level of fun or entertainment at all?

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for new content, but adding in fun merely for the sake of fun accomplishes only a small respite in the monotony of the repetition that a MMO really is. Which really harks back to the youtube video the OP linked to. Adding in content for content's sake is just that. These fun things are more time spending distractions, not actually fun things. Again, I'm not against more, I just don't feel the need of adding in things that entertain outweigh the need of fixing the numerous things that still need balancing.


And now to the final point made:
Do away with this bitter competition between players, and give us what we felt back when FFXI first came out... A lasting colorful world, where the little things are important too.Any observations about RMT aside, competition has always been a part of FFXI. I have friends that recall clearly the horrors of camping Valkurm Emperor against a hoard of dozens of competing players. While I'll eagerly admit that the competition factor of the game is often one of its most demoralizing and rage quit inducing stresses, its also one of the few things that rewarded the player with an intense sense of personal accomplishment. I still feverishly recall my first victory over a highly camped notorious monster, the adrenaline thundering through my veins both from the battle that was dangerous and the thrill of barely out claiming the various other campers left me feeling drained but extremely excited and very happy afterward.

There's nothing wrong with competition, only with poor competitors. Small subtle changes to the existing systems, friendly discussion with your competition and a cool reasonable response to being out-anything'd can make one's game play significantly better.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In closing I share one of my favorite quotes on nostalgia:
"People seem to get nostalgic about a lot of things they weren't so crazy about the first time around."

[Zyeriis]

I hated the game so much that I continued to play it back then. Got it.

[Daremo]

Whereas I liked the game so much, I put up with really irritating crap for a long time. I can't say I miss a lot of it.

[HFX7686]

I'm not saying to completely get rid of bosses dropping "phat lewt", just simply pointing out where the majority of the focus has shifted towards.

I've been in the end game scene since 2004. The majority of the focus of high level players has always, without wavering, been "phat lewt". If something did not drop something useful people would not fight it, ever.

The only reason most people did Zilart missions was sky access. Even now there are people who have not finished off the mission line because there isn't any point beyond the earring.

I'm not sure what game you are remembering, but it is not Final Fantasy XI.

[RaenRyong]

And I understand that you don't see Abyssea as a problem, but some of us do. Just because you don't give a $#!% about DEPTH and DYNAMICS, doesn't mean that others share similar thoughts.

No, I just understand game mechanics well enough that I can tell you that there was no greater depth or dynamics at 75 in the majority of instances.

The only real difference nowadays is that you require less people on a fight-to-fight basis. Needing bodies doesn't add any depth. If SE added an NM tomorrow which was just a standard crab mob but unless you had 18 people it wouldn't take any damage, you wouldn't call it a fight with a great amount of depth, I hope.

Dynamis Lord: zerg
Proto-Omega: absolute joke.
Proto-Ultima: standard tank affair, make sure your tank(s) have an MDT setup.
Genbu: lol.
Seiryu: standard tank affair or RDM it to death.
Suzaku: standard tank affair or RDM it to death. Eat or kite 2hr.
Byakko: standard tank affair or RDM it to death.
Kirin: zerg or kite while you kill adds, then kill it.
Almost all Jailers are more of the same. Love/Prudence are somewhat different.
Faf/Nid/Behe/KB/Ada/Aspid are all and were all easy and easily killable lowman, though you wouldn't see this because of the claim system. Not much depth in these either.
Wyrms: tank on ground, equip mdt set in air. Kite away adds.
Vrtra has depth if you don't zerg it.

I'm not seeing the great amount of depth here. That's not to say that Abyssea fights are the most profound monster battles ever created, but I think you have a serious case of the rose-tinted glasses.

[Sparthos]

I think things such as Assault, Nyzul, Einherjar, Dynamis and Salvage qualify as better examples.

There was simply more variety between events which Abyssea lacks. Assaults had different quirks, Nyzul had the random factor going for it, Einherjar was a legitimate higher-manned event (I still hated it), Dynamis had pulls that made people feel all special inside and also was a higher-manned event (i hated it but some people enjoyed ventrilo with this).

Abyssea basically negated the entire game worth of content. Everything converging on one place removes the dynamic factor. Lights were an interesting quirk until SE went overboard with the zone-wide buffs in Heroes areas that basically do half the work for you.

While I completely agree that most of old XI was basically mindless zerging or shouting at the PC cause nothing dropped, the variety was welcome and given the future of the game we're unlikely to ever see such variety again.

[RaenRyong]

I'll agree with that.

[Karbuncle]

I think we'll see that variety again some time soon.

Gotta also remember while We did have Salvage, Einherjar, etc at 75 for a while, We were 75 for a very long time, it took SE years to give us all that variety of content.

Right now we're level 90, we keep thinking about it as "Above 75" when we should be thinking about it as "Level 65 compared to 75". Since in reality the new cap will be 99.

When we hit 99, I'm sure there will be a lot of Variety in end-game activities eventually. FFXI Endgame wasn't built in a day, and while Abyssea is one event, it was a refresh change of pace over old-FFXI with A LOT to do. Quests, Mission bosses, multiple NMs, the Exp, Dominion Ops, Bastion(LoL?), Bastion Ops, etc. While I know and hope Abyssea will end, Its a transitional period, We'll have variety again soon :O

[Ravenmore]

Seiryu: standard tank affair or RDM it to death.
Suzaku: standard tank affair or RDM it to death. Eat or kite 2hr.
Byakko: standard tank affair or RDM it to death.


Rng shadow bind work just as well (excluding Byakko lol two hour) if poeple listened and is better if your lowmaning and have more then one pop or plainning on doing all of them in one nite.

[Anewie]

I would ignore Olor. He's stated himself he has no experience with anything endgame, not even abyssea. He has no clue what its like.

[Catsby]

The reason why the forums are in such a terrible state is because they were introduced way too late. That much is obvious. The reason they weren't introduced sooner isn't as clear. When I spoke to a community manager about it at GDC he said the company(didn't specific who) wanted forums to be in the hands of the community. The cynic in me says this was a managerial style cost reduction method combined with insular thinking of a Japanese company. We can see what good it did to both the community and the game. We have a bunch of mouthy pissed off people with terrible ideas and a game that is stuck in the previous generation of console hardware.

Hopefully the community managers actually reading these forums will find a way to put the frustration and angst into a tangible form for the people making decisions to see (often referred to as "the breaks").

[Akujima]

How does a job becoming a bandwagon effect how you play the job in any way shape or form?

I was overlooking this thread, and I had to comment on this particular quote. Recently in other threads, I've been discussing balance when it comes to jobs. So in one aspect, this quote makes sense. But in another, this quote is completely biased.

Jobs becoming "bandwagon" doesn't affect that particular job. It affects other jobs.

It brings imbalance to the game. This imbalance causes favoritism amongst the player base, and this favoritism towards jobs, causes them to exclude other people from events/battles/quests, etc, simply because they do not have the "required job".

I know the cliche thing to say is... "Well then go level a useful job". But this not the answer, and this is where FFXI fails, where MMO's like WoW succeed.

At the risk of being flamed for bringing World of Warcraft to the discussion, Blizzard did not consider that people would play more than 1 character/class/job when the game was developed. They created each Class with the understanding that everyone should be included, regardless of whatever race/class/role they play.

FFXI's past and current trends of "bandwagon jobs/subjobs" seek to create so much imbalance, that any further development without the consideration of "all things being equal", will upset a mass majority of the player base that are either new/returning or simply like the job they play because of nostalgia/role-play reasons.

People didn't level the job they like, only to have everyone around them say "Oh... Didn't you know? That job sucks".

[Yinnyth]

No, I just understand game mechanics well enough that I can tell you that there was no greater depth or dynamics at 75 in the majority of instances.

The only real difference nowadays is that you require less people on a fight-to-fight basis. Needing bodies doesn't add any depth. If SE added an NM tomorrow which was just a standard crab mob but unless you had 18 people it wouldn't take any damage, you wouldn't call it a fight with a great amount of depth, I hope.

Dynamis Lord: zerg
Proto-Omega: absolute joke.
Proto-Ultima: standard tank affair, make sure your tank(s) have an MDT setup.
Genbu: lol.
Seiryu: standard tank affair or RDM it to death.
Suzaku: standard tank affair or RDM it to death. Eat or kite 2hr.
Byakko: standard tank affair or RDM it to death.
Kirin: zerg or kite while you kill adds, then kill it.
Almost all Jailers are more of the same. Love/Prudence are somewhat different.
Faf/Nid/Behe/KB/Ada/Aspid are all and were all easy and easily killable lowman, though you wouldn't see this because of the claim system. Not much depth in these either.
Wyrms: tank on ground, equip mdt set in air. Kite away adds.
Vrtra has depth if you don't zerg it.

I'm not seeing the great amount of depth here. That's not to say that Abyssea fights are the most profound monster battles ever created, but I think you have a serious case of the rose-tinted glasses.

Many of the CoP battles had depth back before the cap was raised. Diabolos Heart, Diamond, Spade, and Club was also a very well designed battle. AV has depth, but no one has the pressure suit required to go to that depth (without zerging him). The sad thing is the greatest battles SE has ever designed either weren't designed to be repeated(missions), have no substantial reward(Dynamis-Tav), or were way beyond the scope of possibility (oldschool AV and PW).

VNMs were pretty well done, I think. A little easy now that the level cap has been raised and 25% of players have an empyrean, but just take a look at Yilbegan's wiki page. Tons of info in there, and they're still missing some stuff such as his shadow, and his mini rages.

Salvage was brilliant, though again, too easy now. And to be fair, it also suffered from old-dynamis-syndrome where you could do an awesome run, yet get zilch.

[Dart]

I think things such as Assault, Nyzul, Einherjar, Dynamis and Salvage qualify as better examples.

There was simply more variety between events which Abyssea lacks. Assaults had different quirks, Nyzul had the random factor going for it, Einherjar was a legitimate higher-manned event (I still hated it), Dynamis had pulls that made people feel all special inside and also was a higher-manned event (i hated it but some people enjoyed ventrilo with this).

Abyssea basically negated the entire game worth of content. Everything converging on one place removes the dynamic factor. Lights were an interesting quirk until SE went overboard with the zone-wide buffs in Heroes areas that basically do half the work for you.

While I completely agree that most of old XI was basically mindless zerging or shouting at the PC cause nothing dropped, the variety was welcome and given the future of the game we're unlikely to ever see such variety again.

I really wish that they would bring back a salvage type event. That took some planning/people knowing what the hell to do. and it was challanging/fun. Well to me it was.

[Arlan]

I really wish that they would bring back a salvage type event. That took some planning/people knowing what the hell to do. and it was challanging/fun. Well to me it was.

Yes, I enjoyed Salvage type events.
However, the only thing that killed it for me and majority of players was the drop rates, which was not realistic and the time sink elements which was just a waste of time. But worst of all, You had to have a lot of gils in order to even afford to upgrade your gear...

In my opinion, good gear should be earned by good players,

Not Bought by players with the MOST gilz, Or players who have no lives and can afford the HUGE Time Sink elements that are completely unnecessary and unmotivated by players who want real challenge and adventure who just want to Game with their friends.

Salvage + Assault Rank Missions + Nyzule Isle where the BEST challenging type events I have experience, in my opinion, other than "Story Missions" back in 2006 when i started. I done Sky and sea and other stuff too but, in the end,
SE makes the fun, and challenging events, the most Time Sink, that just kills most of the fun for players who just wish to progress and take on tough things durring their adventures.

Back in the old days, So many flaws!
Today, A lot more has improved, but ultimately, brand New flaws has occurred.

I enjoy the new FFXI a lot more than I did with the Old FFXI,
But still a lot needs to be changed and fixed around.

Wether you agree or disagree with today's ffxi, the fact is, it is an MMORPG game and all MMORPG games are considered "Incomplete" because it constantly changes. And not everyone well agree or have the same views on what they think the game should be.

I welcome Challenging events, But just as long as all players have access to the content and can enjoy it on their own pace without being limited.

This game was made for all, After all...
Not for One. =)

[Chronofantasy]

I definitely know for sure SE is taking our ideas as most has mentioned. Myself along with many others have posted topics and replies on here to increase the lvl cap and give more content for our fellowship NPCs, and in this version update, SE is giving us just that. There's over 100 different ideas players give out on these forums. Only so much can be done.

[Karbuncle]

I was overlooking this thread, and I had to comment on this particular quote. Recently in other threads, I've been discussing balance when it comes to jobs. So in one aspect, this quote makes sense. But in another, this quote is completely biased.

Jobs becoming "bandwagon" doesn't affect that particular job. It affects other jobs.

It brings imbalance to the game. This imbalance causes favoritism amongst the player base, and this favoritism towards jobs, causes them to exclude other people from events/battles/quests, etc, simply because they do not have the "required job".

I know the cliche thing to say is... "Well then go level a useful job". But this not the answer, and this is where FFXI fails, where MMO's like WoW succeed.

At the risk of being flamed for bringing World of Warcraft to the discussion, Blizzard did not consider that people would play more than 1 character/class/job when the game was developed. They created each Class with the understanding that everyone should be included, regardless of whatever race/class/role they play.

FFXI's past and current trends of "bandwagon jobs/subjobs" seek to create so much imbalance, that any further development without the consideration of "all things being equal", will upset a mass majority of the player base that are either new/returning or simply like the job they play because of nostalgia/role-play reasons.

People didn't level the job they like, only to have everyone around them say "Oh... Didn't you know? That job sucks".

While your point is correct in some ways, Bandwagon jobs will always Exist. it was RNG, then BLM, then SMN, then SAM, then MNK/WAR, etc etc. Very few will change this, unfortunately. "Miracle Cure" arm-chair thoughts rarely get implemented.


However, that's not at all what the guy i quoted was talking about :|. The way i read it (been like a week now though) he was sad his job had become the "next bandwagon". I.E He's sad his job is useful enough people are leveling it. I.E he apparently wants his job nerfed again.

[Panthera]

The forums give us a direct means to communicate with SE collectively. I think that over the years, SE listens to concerns and changes the game over time. Sometimes changes are made when they are no longer relevant. The much delayed Moogles in Selbina being a prime example, and the changes to ROTZ Kings being another. However, putting Abyssea NPCs in Port Windurst as opposed to Heaven's Tower is a counter example, as are other changes to the recent update. There are quite a few examples in this forum of where SE provides us with feedback, at least letting us know what can and cannot be done, in-house mog house save point as an example. And although changing Wyvern's color might be pretty, FFXI is a business as well as a game, and they do have to think in terms of development costs vs payoffs, or in other words, prioritize. Balancing out Relic and Mythic weapons vs. Emperean weapons is just more important than the color of wyvern skin.

As for the decline of FFXI, I think this is a separate thread for a separate issue. I don't think there's really a strong case here for that (and i'm not saying there isn't one to be made), and furthermore, I don't see a clear connection made between forums as a supposed distraction and deteriorating game design. One must be careful about new threads and replies. They have to be as good essays; with a clear focus supported by relevant examples which prove the point.

[Miiyo]

The example I will use is in the JOBS section: DRAGOON: "Change your wyvern color!"
The most stupid example to open up with after you said "good ideas." If that's your example of the "good ideas" that have been posted, SE wasted their time thinking the forum would produce any good ideas that would HELP the game. Who is going to play longer because they can change the color of their damn wyvern?

Good ideas are based on opinion. So far you're not proving your's are worth listening to. I'll take "something to do" over a really small cosmetic change that doesn't affect everyone. Well it doesn't affect the majority. Dragoon is not a prominent job. Not close.

Also part of the... "example" you showed was this: "...a VAST and complex story, lots of areas to explore and quests to do, tons of jobs to play, etc."
Even pre-Abyssea alot of zones were not being used. It was basically a waste of memory and space. Space they're trying to recycle. Yes the world is vast. What does that matter if 60%+ of it isn't being used. What does it matter that it has a ton of quests to do if people have already done them and don't care to do them again? Did I mention your really did not pick a good example?

Then there was this part "I know you have lot of work to do and I am not against it, but..."
The "but" was not needed. It should've stopped there. They have a ton of work to do to keep people playing. You're complaining but you're still playing. Evidentally what they are trying to do and accomplish is enough to have you pay them money. You don't know what they have to do! You don't know how much work it takes to try to please hundreds of thousands of people with a small team. You know nothing of their workload. Be respectful and not even assume you have a clue unless you have a background in the field... ...or if you're sleeping with someone on the Dev. team. I may listen to what you supposedly "know" if that was the case

On Forums
I can count the amount of original good ideas I've seen on the forum, on one hand. The whining and bitching extends forever with very few suggestions of substance. Every other thing that is worth reading, has been merely a "you need to add this to what you've already done" comment. So there hasn't been much the majority hasn't liked. They just want tweaking to it.

On Gameplay and Nostalgia
Everything will lose it's sense of newness eventually. To stay in business, things have to evolve. The biggest drop in the population probably happened post WOTG. When the same activities (dyna, sky, sea, etc) were milked, and milked, and milked for years. You try to run a game off of nostalgia and you lose people. It's as simple as that.

"The video is a bit silly, but it presents a great synopsis of how developers extend the game time, in order for people to feel like they "got more out of the game"
Funny you should say that when they are currently trying to utilize every bit of the game now, instead of expanding and adding stuff, while killing more older areas.

Lastly, this is a business for SE. They want to make money. This is done by pleasing the majority. If you think an upgrade to a system that kept people hooked for years, comes second to the color of a damn wyvern being changed, then you prove my belief that you are an idiot.

(I really can't believe this guy said changing the color of a DAMN wyvern is a good idea. He compared it to Dynamis. An entire battle zone, compared to a cosmetic change to a DAMN WYVERN!!!)