[DEV1010] Pet job adjustments

[Dallas]

I think the developers need to look more closely how pet jobs have been abandoned by the traditional role playerbase. BST and SMN in particular have been forced to go do their own thing, and we do it very well. PUP seems to have disappeared from Abyssea entirely.

The problem is, that pet owners get EVERY buff available except COR pet buffs, and pets only get Atma and COR buffs. Pets do not benefit from the same gear that buffs the owner. Pets alone are not as powerful as a single WAR/MNK/NIN/etc. Pet owners alone are not as powerful. When you buff either the pet or the master but never both, these jobs fall WAY behind a job that gets the full benefit.

The effect is that the pet owner could be the more powerful than the pet. For DRG, this is intended. For BST, it's always been close. For SMN, it's just crazy that the player can pull hate off the avatar.

I think a few key adjustments would make the whole experience much more enjoyable for pet jobs:

1) Allow /BST subbed Snarl to work for Avatars, Wyvern and Automatons. I really don't think DRG would use it, but why not show them the love too?
2) Allow all avatar buffs/heals to at least hit other avatars, but I vote for all pets. 2 Garudas should be able to heal each other.
3) Put back in the code that allowed pets to benefit from DNC Sambas. We loved this "error."
4) Enhance COR pet rolls to account for the fact that no player will benefit from any rolls.
5) Introduce AOE pet food that works on all pets in the pt.
6) Please please please introduce armor for SMN, BST, DRG, and PUP that equally buffs both the player and the pet.

Specifically planning to buff an Avatar for Haste, I can reach 30% pet haste with Hastega, Augmented hat, and Atma of the Omniscient. This comes at the expense of both the pet and the master. This expense does not exist for jobs that can easily reach the 80% delay reduction cap.

Pet jobs are not weak, compared one by one to other jobs, but they have been left out of nearly every benefit received through teamwork.

[Glamdring]

They could just extend our cruor buffs to pets, too. I don't know about you, but my pet consistently pulls hate off any player-regardless of job-not in full AF3 +2 or under the effect of a brew; but I have pet Acc/Atk armor and Emp weaps, not the normal -pdt set. Actually, I usually need to call my pet off to keep from burning through Jugs or food. Also, with the pet buffs I never take hate from my pet unless it gets slept and I choose not to cure it.

[Valmur]

Can't say I encountered that problem yet but I have farsha, attack 2-4axe and +2 everything and I constantly need to pull pet off monsters like Glamdring says

[lowkey]

The problem with bst is that the developers have gone to great lengths to discourage/prevent us from charming. Our defining job ability doesn't work at all in Abbyssea areas--unless SE originally intended for charm to be a quick claim tool only. If they had of disabled any other job's main ability like that, people would be raising hell over it.

[Korpg]

Wait, you pull hate off of your avatar? Your avatar's Blood Pacts must really suck if you can pull hate off of an avatar, including meleeing, which I know you are so fond of doing while you are a SMN.

Before you say that avatars are ment to tank, think about it for a minute. Do you know of any avatar that has the ability to provoke? Or, outside of doing any BP:Rs, take hate off of a group of people and place it directly on the avatar? Only way that an avatar can keep constant hate is for that avatar to, you know, do decent damage, something along the lines of 2k damage every 45 seconds along with hits in between those 45 seconds. If you are doing that and still taking hate away from the avatar, take off that enmity + gear you have wearing, because that is the only way you would be able to take hate off of your avatar. Unless you do something stupid, like go as SMN/WAR and provoke every 30 seconds to keep your avatar alive while the mob beats the heck out of you....

[Dfoley]

As a pup I would settle for
1) A set of pet gear
2) Crour/group buffs to affect the pet (protectra, hastega, sambas, bard songs etc)
3) Improved ai

#3 specificly is god awful, using maneuvers to choose a ws is such a bad idea, and healing status ailments over casting cure is silly. Not to mention spaming aspir every 20% just cause your at 75% mp.

[Dallas]

Wait, you pull hate off of your avatar? Your avatar's Blood Pacts must really suck if you can pull hate off of an avatar, including meleeing, which I know you are so fond of doing while you are a SMN.

Before you say that avatars are ment to tank, think about it for a minute. Do you know of any avatar that has the ability to provoke? Or, outside of doing any BP:Rs, take hate off of a group of people and place it directly on the avatar? Only way that an avatar can keep constant hate is for that avatar to, you know, do decent damage, something along the lines of 2k damage every 45 seconds along with hits in between those 45 seconds. If you are doing that and still taking hate away from the avatar, take off that enmity + gear you have wearing, because that is the only way you would be able to take hate off of your avatar. Unless you do something stupid, like go as SMN/WAR and provoke every 30 seconds to keep your avatar alive while the mob beats the heck out of you....

Re: Unless I do something stupid...

I use Hvergelmir for 600 damage critical for a normal swing. Before, I was dealing 200 damage per crit, up to 4 times per attack round. I only use 36% haste because /SAM is suicidal. The ONLY way to live is to stop attacking or get a monster critical hit BP from Garuda. That usually kills the mob, leaving 45 seconds before I can do it again. One hit without a BP will pull hate.

Please, try to get somewhere in the ballpark of my damage capabilities before telling me I need to sub /WAR and provoke to get hate. It's VERY easy to do, and you obviously haven't tried. I've been doing it since my antlion trial for my OA3. Good weapon, lots of haste, capped staff skill. Get to it.


Can't say I encountered that problem yet but I have farsha, attack 2-4axe and +2 everything and I constantly need to pull pet off monsters like Glamdring says

BST have Snarl, and it is used all the time. My suggestion is to give SMN, PUP and DRG access to the skill when subbed.

[Legomike]

They could just extend our cruor buffs to pets allow gear to do the same.
>>zone bst pets <<

Since this is about pets.. SE please fix auto target when pet has hate. for anyone that doesnt know when a pet has hate auto target does not work

[Dallas]

That's exactly why I made this thread. We all have problems with the pet jobs. Some adjustments will be easy and some "too costly," so I'm hoping someone comes up with a recommendation that SE can implement.

[Olor]

Also please fix the garbage where if there is a link the BST pet will attack the monster attacking it instead of the target specified by the master. It is really annoying to repeatedly tell your pet to attack one target only to have it run off and attack something else.

[AyinDygra]

Also please fix the garbage where if there is a link the BST pet will attack the monster attacking it instead of the target specified by the master. It is really annoying to repeatedly tell your pet to attack one target only to have it run off and attack something else.

I'd suggest a new Job Ability: Leash
Level 15
Duration: 5min Recast: 1min
While in effect, the pet will only attack the master's current target.

Sometimes the original behavior may be useful.

[Korpg]

Re: Unless I do something stupid...

I use Hvergelmir for 600 damage critical for a normal swing. Before, I was dealing 200 damage per crit, up to 4 times per attack round. I only use 36% haste because /SAM is suicidal. The ONLY way to live is to stop attacking or get a monster critical hit BP from Garuda. That usually kills the mob, leaving 45 seconds before I can do it again. One hit without a BP will pull hate.

Please, try to get somewhere in the ballpark of my damage capabilities before telling me I need to sub /WAR and provoke to get hate. It's VERY easy to do, and you obviously haven't tried. I've been doing it since my antlion trial for my OA3. Good weapon, lots of haste, capped staff skill. Get to it.

Sorry, I won't gimp myself on what my actual job is supposed to be when I'm in a party as SMN. Which is to provide both the support needed for the party and outstanding damage without having to have one more person for the WHM to have to worry about.

600 crits? I get 1k crits on my WAR. Why should I do anything in a party situation where I needed to be at my best come as something that does not remotely resemble a damage dealer, at least not in the position you are referring to. And also, while I'm WAR, I can do nice things as being able to proc red/blue, tank, and keep the mages alive, while still taking hits like a pro. You even admitted it, you can't take hits at all.

If I'm a Summoner during an event where they need me for a particular purpose, as in pulling, doing outstanding damage without feeding the mob TP, or helping to support everyone, I do that job, and I do it well. I don't try to be somebody I'm not. I have other jobs to do physical damage in massive quantities.

Go level WAR, and put your time into getting a Ukon. At least that will be one weapon not wasted.

[Malamasala]

Your ideas are a bit flawed.

For example it is a pretty terrible solution to have to sub a job for a single ability and lose everything other subs would give you. I wouldn't complain if BST had more things, or if SMN had more things, but a SMN/BST is a terrible job combination. You'll BP every minute and then just do snarl every whatever, and your pet HP is so low anyway that if snarl isn't 30 seconds or shorter, you'll still have hate issues on a resummon

Buffs of course should hit everyone. Player or pet, song roll ward or whatever.

AOE Food is also stupid. Pets are not curable, so you need an effect on yourself that boosts the pet like atma. It is this kind of food we need. "atma food", though it doesn't need to be as awesome as RR.

Couldn't agree more with hybrid armors for both master and pet FOR SMN though. BST and PUP got these the last year... but SMN is still forgotten. Then again we need 3 stats on our armors to fix game flaws with pets, so it leaves very little room left for melee stats. (We need -BP timer, due to broken BP timer system. We need -perpetuation, due to broken perpetuation system. We need summoning skill, due to broken skill system.)

SMN is like some kind of lab rat that get all experimental updates that suck. Worst part being that before every single update when people speculate on the changes I say "Well, it can't be this, because it wouldn't work" and then it is exactly what it is... The job would have been 500 times better off if SE just read my posts only and did what I told them.

Like I can just see them add pet AOE food now, and all SMNs will just summon garuda, eat food, then have garuda die in 60 seconds and need to suicide to get rid of food effect and eat another AOE food. Thanks in advance SE.

[Dallas]

600 crits? I get 1k crits on my WAR. Why should I do anything in a party situation where I needed to be at my best come as something that does not remotely resemble a damage dealer, at least not in the position you are referring to. And also, while I'm WAR, I can do nice things as being able to proc red/blue, tank, and keep the mages alive, while still taking hits like a pro. You even admitted it, you can't take hits at all.

I love this argument. It's a fabulous argument. Now, I want you to be ABSOLUTELY SURE you never admit to me that you have ever cast Cure IV as a SMN/WHM. If you do, the math goes something like this:

600/1000 = 60% = fake DD
400/1200 = 33% = fake healer
600/1200 = 50% = fake healer throwing all SMN gear out

Yes, WAR hit more, but WHM cure more. It gets better... today I was breaking 700 damage with ease (769 is my new record), so I have not found my potential yet. Retribution broke 1600. I'm working through the kinks of an obviously superior weapon, which if you will notice, has 0% cure potency.

This thread is for things that are wrong with pet jobs. I guess we can add "fix lazy SMN" to the list.

[Glamdring]

I'd suggest a new Job Ability: Leash
Level 15
Duration: 5min Recast: 1min
While in effect, the pet will only attack the master's current target.

Sometimes the original behavior may be useful.

Quite true. As both a bst and a pup I can say that I have gotten several links where I wished my pup would get the add off my back (since autos don't have sleep, among other spells). Conversely, I have several times wanted my bst pet to focus on the 1st mob so we can kill it fast and work on the 2nd.

[Olor]

I'd suggest a new Job Ability: Leash
Level 15
Duration: 5min Recast: 1min
While in effect, the pet will only attack the master's current target.

Sometimes the original behavior may be useful.

You're right. That's a great idea.

[Korpg]

I love this argument. It's a fabulous argument. Now, I want you to be ABSOLUTELY SURE you never admit to me that you have ever cast Cure IV as a SMN/WHM. If you do, the math goes something like this:

600/1000 = 60% = fake DD
400/1200 = 33% = fake healer
600/1200 = 50% = fake healer throwing all SMN gear out

Yes, WAR hit more, but WHM cure more. It gets better... today I was breaking 700 damage with ease (769 is my new record), so I have not found my potential yet. Retribution broke 1600. I'm working through the kinks of an obviously superior weapon, which if you will notice, has 0% cure potency.

This thread is for things that are wrong with pet jobs. I guess we can add "fix lazy SMN" to the list.

First off, I have never done anything in a group as SMN/WHM. I am not a healer, I will never be a healer as SMN, and trying to do so is just an insult to SMNs and WHMs everywhere. My SMN is there for two thing, and that is to pop out 5k+ (10k if AF3 set bonus procs) Blood Pacts every 45 seconds, without giving the mob TP in the process, and pulling links off of the tank and having Ramuh tank 3+ mobs at one time if needed.

What you are suggesting as a melee SMN would be to lose 2 of the most essential atmas a DD SMN uses to actually do the type of damage it needs to do. Probably 3, since I doubt you would use Minkin at all either. You also lose 3 of the most essential atmas a tanking SMN needs to have on to actually be able to hold 3+ mobs without dying quickly. Hell, just yesterday I tanked Funeral Apkallu and a MPK attempt from another group to steal our bird by pulling Athamas and having one player die behind us, which Garuda was able to tank both of them with ease. Can you do that while trying to pop out 600+ crit hits?

What you are doing is sending a back line job to the front where it does not belong. While your style of play is acceptable to you, do not refer "lazy SMN" into the equation, because some people might try what you are suggesting and end up wiping their party in the process. If enough people do that, others are going to label SMN as "loljobs" like DRG was way back then and PUPs are now. I don't want your ideas to make SMN into a "loljob."

[Karbuncle]

AOE Food is also stupid. Pets are not curable, so you need an effect on yourself that boosts the pet like atma. It is this kind of food we need. "atma food", though it doesn't need to be as awesome as RR.

like I can just see them add pet AOE food now, and all SMNs will just summon garuda, eat food, then have garuda die in 60 seconds and need to suicide to get rid of food effect and eat another AOE food. Thanks in advance SE.

Could simply be a permanent food effect on master that grants "Pet: xxxx buff". Instead of a food effect thats hits pet and master. Especially in terms of Avatars. I truthfully find it just a little unfair that Melee get all the good foods, where as Mages and Pet jobs generally lack in useful foods. (While some pet jobs (read PUP/BST/DRG) Can make use of Attack/melee food, I feel there should be food for the pets).

Like, a Pet food more for SMNS, Maybe the food gives MP+15% and Perp-1 for Avatars, with "Avatar: Attack+15%, MAB+15"
.
Or a food for mages that offers MAB, or Cure Potency(Admitting Cure pot less needed?). Can't be any more broken than a food with HP+, Atk+, and Store TP+. or Red Curry Buns. Theres nothing stupid about adding foods the directly impact the "pet" aspect of "pet jobs". Maybe "AoE" yes, but a Food that is user-buffed, that has simply "Pet:" effects would be lovely.

Melee food really corners the market in foods, Best Mage food is either MP, or INT/MND, No enhancements to Macc/Matk like Melee food does for Acc/atk. Theres even food that impacts Crafting now. So i think it'd be nice (and fair) to offer meaningful food for master/pet.

[Korpg]

Could simply be a permanent food effect on master that grants "Pet: xxxx buff". Instead of a food effect thats hits pet and master. Especially in terms of Avatars. I truthfully find it just a little unfair that Melee get all the good foods, where as Mages and Pet jobs generally lack in useful foods. (While some pet jobs (read PUP/BST/DRG) Can make use of Attack/melee food, I feel there should be food for the pets).

Like, a Pet food more for SMNS, Maybe the food gives MP+15% and Perp-1 for Avatars, with "Avatar: Attack+15%, MAB+15"
.
Or a food for mages that offers MAB, or Cure Potency(Admitting Cure pot less needed?). Can't be any more broken than a food with HP+, Atk+, and Store TP+. or Red Curry Buns. Theres nothing stupid about adding foods the directly impact the "pet" aspect of "pet jobs". Maybe "AoE" yes, but a Food that is user-buffed, that has simply "Pet:" effects would be lovely.

Melee food really corners the market in foods, Best Mage food is either MP, or INT/MND, No enhancements to Macc/Matk like Melee food does for Acc/atk. Theres even food that impacts Crafting now. So i think it'd be nice (and fair) to offer meaningful food for master/pet.

This is actually a good idea.

Bet you that they would say "difficult to implement" though

[Dallas]

First off, I have never done anything in a group as SMN/WHM.

You should have picked Door #1. Your playstyle does less damage, and heals less (I melee as /WHM because I need reraise). I call that "lack of support" playstyle, since it centers around refusing to do anything outside of BPs twice every 45 seconds.

I hope your hMP setup is in place, you are going to need it soon.

[Dfoley]

First off, I have never done anything in a group as SMN/WHM. I am not a healer, I will never be a healer as SMN, and trying to do so is just an insult to SMNs and WHMs everywhere. My SMN is there for two thing, and that is to pop out 5k+ (10k if AF3 set bonus procs) Blood Pacts every 45 seconds, without giving the mob TP in the process, and pulling links off of the tank and having Ramuh tank 3+ mobs at one time if needed.

If enough people do that, others are going to label SMN as "loljobs" like DRG was way back then and PUPs are now. I don't want your ideas to make SMN into a "loljob."

2 major problems with your post
1) Almost every summoner leveled it as a smn/whm pre Abyssea so lets not like or try to diss it. If you didn't do it that way you leveled it entirely as a smn burn party in which case it makes you an lol or bandwagon summoner.

2) I must have missed the part where my pup is an lol job now. I out DD almost every job I play with. A fully geared pup with burts (lvl 89 weapon) can completly trash about any other job as far as dd goes, and is very close to a monk in DD from the master alone. Add in a pet thats doing 2.5k ws every 10-15s. Just make sure you look at 'how many kills can you get a minute' not 'how fast can you trash a single mob'. Trashing 1 mob super fast is nice, but if you have to wait 45 seconds per mob, lol. I suggest you come to ragnarok and I will show you how lol a pop isnt.

3) (super secret finale) Stop making up numbers, all of you. 5k+ (af3+2 bonus of 10K) may be possible but they sure arent common. And criting for 600 with Hvergelmir? Really? come one now, maybe with aftermath up but no where near commonly. Lets be honest, your not sitting on 25% gear haste and you are not even coming close to being able to get near the 80% reduction cap, so at best your doing 600 dmg max a swing, 200-300 average and all of that with a slow slow slow delay compared to everything else.

[Karbuncle]

I've actually seen Heavenly Strike peak around 11,000 thanks to set bonus :O, and it averages around ~4k on most NMs when properly geared. 5k~+ isn't absurd when it comes to Normal Exp mobs.

but that aside, most of your points are correct in one way or another. SMN is a great job, but the 45 second BP timer is too restricting, it needs to be lowered, or the cap on BP Gear removed.

[Korpg]

You should have picked Door #1. Your playstyle does less damage, and heals less (I melee as /WHM because I need reraise). I call that "lack of support" playstyle, since it centers around refusing to do anything outside of BPs twice every 45 seconds.

I hope your hMP setup is in place, you are going to need it soon.

First off, think. I solo'd my SMN to 75, and I said in a group I'm never /WHM. Pre-Abyssea I was /SCH. For Sublimation. Post Abyssea I'm /RDM. For Dispel, Convert, and eventually Refresh. I have not rested for mp ever since Abyssea came out, because I actually have refresh atmas on, and free avatars even without refresh or avatar's favor. If I wanted my avatars to melee, they can, without worry about mp, without worry about getting myself killed in the process. When I blood pact, the refresh from Minkin alone is enough to gain the mp usage from blood pacts. If my group needs club or staff blue procs, guess what, I'm there ready to help them out with that too. Even though I don't melee often, doesn't mean I don't melee at all. I just know what is expected from me and I don't fool myself in turning my job into a substandard melee because SE gave SMNs a staff that happens to have a few more damage than a Great Katana.

Try using Beyond, Minkin, and Ultimate once. If you have the gear to give yourself free avatars, and a lot of Pet:MAB gear for BP:Rs, you too will find yourself asking why you got your staff in the first place.

[Korpg]

2 major problems with your post
1) Almost every summoner leveled it as a smn/whm pre Abyssea so lets not like or try to diss it. If you didn't do it that way you leveled it entirely as a smn burn party in which case it makes you an lol or bandwagon summoner.

I had SMN/WHM before Abyssea, but only when I solo'd. Just for Reraise. If you read my post, you would see that I said in a group that I don't go as SMN/WHM. Because in a group I am not the main heal. I'm not even sub-heal. I'm in that group to do a massive amount of damage in a short period of time.


2) I must have missed the part where my pup is an lol job now. I out DD almost every job I play with. A fully geared pup with burts (lvl 89 weapon) can completly trash about any other job as far as dd goes, and is very close to a monk in DD from the master alone. Add in a pet thats doing 2.5k ws every 10-15s. Just make sure you look at 'how many kills can you get a minute' not 'how fast can you trash a single mob'. Trashing 1 mob super fast is nice, but if you have to wait 45 seconds per mob, lol. I suggest you come to ragnarok and I will show you how lol a pop isnt.
I didn't say your PUP is lol, I said that generic PUP is lol. You worked hard to make your Puppetmaster good, and thats good for you. But the majority of PUPs out there can't do the type of damage that most other DDs can. Even with their BLM frames. I didn't attack you, I'm not attacking anyone, I'm just stating a general idea about a job that most people have.


3) (super secret finale) Stop making up numbers, all of you. 5k+ (af3+2 bonus of 10K) may be possible but they sure arent common. And criting for 600 with Hvergelmir? Really? come one now, maybe with aftermath up but no where near commonly. Lets be honest, your not sitting on 25% gear haste and you are not even coming close to being able to get near the 80% reduction cap, so at best your doing 600 dmg max a swing, 200-300 average and all of that with a slow slow slow delay compared to everything else.

Heavenly Strike, with Atma of Beyond, Ultimate, and Minkin (+50 INT part) can do upwards of 5k damage on non-NM mobs. There are too many times in exp parties where I oneshot mobs that the puller just pulled, before anyone even engaged. With Set bonus on AF3, you can do double the damage than normal, so 10k isn't impossible. Even Karbuncle noted that.

As for critting for 600 on Emp staff, since nobody on Asura has made that staff yet, and probably won't unless they really want to waste their time like that, I will never verify nor deny that claim.

But you are right on the money that SMN is not a physical DD. They don't have the gear for it, nor the skill (sorry, but 335 skill on a weapon without any other upgrades is just not going to cut it when it is very easy for other jobs to get close to 400 skill on another weapon, like my GA skill on WAR is at 384 just on AF3 body and merits alone) to justify meleeing with it.

[Dallas]

If my group needs club or staff blue procs, guess what, I'm there ready to help them out with that too.

Make up your mind, are you a gimp WAR or not?


Stop making up numbers, all of you. And criting for 600 with Hvergelmir? Really? come one now, maybe with aftermath up but no where near commonly.

769 crit with aftermath on a gnat is my highest. I purposely said 600, as the number is sufficiently high enough to generate this response. I play on a level significantly higher than most SMN. We havent even pulled out my pet who does 250 per crit.

I have 21% gear haste, 7% gear double attack. I have Hastega and access to Hasso. 46% haste in maximum suicide build. I also use VV for the regain and double attack.

[Korpg]

Make up your mind, are you a gimp WAR or not?



What's wrong with having more than one person doing procs? You mean to tell me you never are in a group with multiple procers? Hell, even my WHM friend tries to proc stuff when we fight stuff together, and she still does it while main healing 12 people.

Also, what are your atmas when you do melee like this, and what are your blood pact numbers at? Thats one thing you have failed to mention in any of your posts I have seen. You are claiming to be this "super DD SMN" but you never say how. What are your gears that you equip? What is the highest Blood Pact you ever hit, outside of +% damage mobs.

[Kayn]

you most be living in the past, are you comparing average dd to an average pup? im sorry but right now, there's hardly any difference, if you want to compare an average pup to a greatly geared dd then obviously the greatly geared dd will pull ahead.

right now, a pup sucking lies solely on their mastery with the job. we have all the tools now.

pup is not on a disadvantage anymore.

Face. it.

[blowfin]

They could just extend our cruor buffs to pets, too. I don't know about you, but my pet consistently pulls hate off any player-regardless of job-not in full AF3 +2 or under the effect of a brew; but I have pet Acc/Atk armor and Emp weaps, not the normal -pdt set. Actually, I usually need to call my pet off to keep from burning through Jugs or food. Also, with the pet buffs I never take hate from my pet unless it gets slept and I choose not to cure it.

Yeah there is nothing wrong with BST when i'm able to force pets to hold hate against a +2 Vereth Monk.

[Korpg]

you most be living in the past, are you comparing average dd to an average pup? im sorry but right now, there's hardly any difference, if you want to compare an average pup to a greatly geared dd then obviously the greatly geared dd will pull ahead.

right now, a pup sucking lies solely on their mastery with the job. we have all the tools now.

pup is not on a disadvantage anymore.

Face. it.

Well, I got to admit, I have not partied with a PUP since 75, so my information is a little dated. But again, there aren't many PUPs online (just checked, about 10 from levels 1-90 on Asura that are not /anon) so its not like a whole lot of people play PUP now.

So, I guess I should retract the whole "lolpup" statement. Sorry to all PUPs out there.

[Karbuncle]

Yeah there is nothing wrong with BST when i'm able to force pets to hold hate against a +2 Vereth Monk.

Thats not at all impressive if you're each at the Enmity Cap already, as I could say "I take hate off Vereth90 MNKs on my THF all the time", while it may be true, thanks to Abilities like Collaborator, and the fact Enmity has a cap, It doesn't mean much.

BST is a wonderful job, I'm just saying "Holding hate" isn't really so overpowered.

[Karbuncle]

Well, I got to admit, I have not partied with a PUP since 75, so my information is a little dated. But again, there aren't many PUPs online (just checked, about 10 from levels 1-90 on Asura that are not /anon) so its not like a whole lot of people play PUP now.

So, I guess I should retract the whole "lolpup" statement. Sorry to all PUPs out there.

I'm a 90 PUP :D!

But it just hit 90 like 3 days ago, has no Emp+1/2, and my Auto skills are under-capped. But damn if Stringing Pummel isn't awesome.

[Dallas]

Thats one thing you have failed to mention in any of your posts I have seen. Then go back to the Summoners forum and look again.

[Korpg]

Then go back to the Summoners forum and look again.

Naw, too lazy, post it here.

I'll post my gear and atma usage for different scenarios if you do.

[blowfin]

Thats not at all impressive if you're each at the Enmity Cap already, as I could say "I take hate off Vereth90 MNKs on my THF all the time", while it may be true, thanks to Abilities like Collaborator, and the fact Enmity has a cap, It doesn't mean much.

I dunno, it makes me quite happy being able to tank things with an insect while things get pounded to a pulp by a monk.

Oh and this is using ducal guard too. It's not like DD output has to be pushed.

[Korpg]

I dunno, it makes me quite happy being able to tank things with an insect while things get pounded to a pulp by a monk.

Oh and this is using ducal guard too. It's not like DD output has to be pushed.
Ducal Guard and Mounted Champion Atmas are the best when it comes to pet tanking.

I have had a SMN and BLM duo party (me being the SMN of course) for my BLM friend's seals and he hardly ever gets hate, thanks to PC/HS and the damage output thereof. That Enmity decay reduction while being hit on Mounted Champion really helps out too.

I haven't tried a SMN and MNK duo yet though, because, well, I don't want to be a pathetic healer tbh.

[Karbuncle]

I dunno, it makes me quite happy being able to tank things with an insect while things get pounded to a pulp by a monk.

Oh and this is using ducal guard too. It's not like DD output has to be pushed.

I thought you were saying it more like "They should nerf beast". Not that it was awesome.

It is awesome, But not awesome enough to nerf BST :P

[Dallas]

Naw, too lazy, post it here.

I'll post my gear and atma usage for different scenarios if you do.

Most of it is in my post on page 3, right before your complaint that I never reveal my secrets, which is why I sent you to the Summoner's forum to find it.

Best DD atma so far: RR, VV, SA. Why?
1) All 3 sources of damage benefit from physical atma, instead of just one. Damage is miles beyond that of a solid magic pact build. Not even the people in this thread were willing to believe the damage output of a staff that has only 4% less DOT rating than emp GK.
2) Spirit Taker and Myrkr provide more than enough MP for SMN. Minikin is a waste of an atma slot except to deal magic damage. I was getting 300-800 MP return with Spirit Taker on my OA4 staff.
3) Our best melee buff is on the avatar with the strongest physical BP.
4) Physical BPs do not drain pettp. That means a physical build is almost always accompanied by 507 AOE heals.
5) The rules for DD are well known. I'm just following those rules.

Some day I may replace VV with Apoc, but I need /WHM for all the other crazy stuff I do. There's enough downtime that +2 regain outweighs triple attack.

[Alhanelem]

dear god, dallas in here to let everyone know it's his way or the highway again. You don't play like Dallas, you're a gimp noob! There are situations and pros and cons for everything so stop telling people that
1) melee SMN is the best thing ever (There are times when it makes a good alternative playstyle, and there are also times where it isn't so great)
2) if they DON'T melee SMN, then they are gimp and should stop playing or whatever. (Not expressly stated, but implied)

Sincerely,
your best friend

[Tannlore]

Well the Dallas attacks aside, I'm actually very interested in the topic of this thread. I don't have pup 90 yet. I'm leveling it still as a side project (only 55), though I have drg and smn 90 (leveled them to 75 pre CoP days) Bst is 22... one day.

Anyhow, My focus is smn and I have quite a few things I'd love to see based on my experiences of playing pet jobs on a multitude of other mmos as well:

1. Some form of taunt that is NOT our blood pact: rage. Yeah sometimes our timers are down, it would be nice to have that option up. Sometimes I find myself wanting to save a friend, or myself and that rage timer just isn't cooperating ya know? Don't think it would be that over powering as our pets are hardly walking metallic fortresses of indestructibility (Well outside of abyssea for the most part). And you do know.. you aren't always playing in abyssea.

2. Ability to Heal our avatars: Not just Hit points, but status ailments. Even if it meant taking it onto ourselves similar to the white mage spell sacrifice? Sometimes it's not practical to release and resummon. Wouldn't that make Myrkr even more useful? It seems kind of silly that we can't maintain our own pets in this manner.. heck any manner really. Bst have it down, they can feed their pets food: I was happy when I got reward. As dragoon, I was damn skippy happy when I got Spirit Link cause I Was tired of AoE killing my wyvern all the time (Still happened.. but at least he lived a little longer).

3. Spells that buff our avatars: Give us spells that give our avatars buffs. Summoner native versions of protect/shell and the likes. Heck make it all the pets. Why not just make it so you can actually cast white magic buffs on them? Adventure fellows got this mechanic, I don't see why it can't be applied to pets. Dragoon Wyverns get this benefit when Empathy is used. Why can't Bst/drg/pup/smn pets have buffs cast on them like Fellows and players?

4. Toggle the the auto attack on avatars. >.< I've adjusted over the years.... but I can't tell you how many times I've seen some smn noob it up when you sleep mobs and their avatar goes happy go lucky wapping along on sleeping mobs or bound mobs because they aren't paying attention! On most any mmo out there this is a toggled setting. passive/aggressive/defensive, or automatic/manual, or alert/passive, or what have you. Here it's OMFG I'm going to eat you!!! mode 100% of the time >.>

[Xilk]

Well the Dallas attacks aside, I'm actually very interested in the topic of this thread. I don't have pup 90 yet. I'm leveling it still as a side project (only 55), though I have drg and smn 90 (leveled them to 75 pre CoP days) Bst is 22... one day.

Anyhow, My focus is smn and I have quite a few things I'd love to see based on my experiences of playing pet jobs on a multitude of other mmos as well:

1. Some form of taunt that is NOT our blood pact: rage. Yeah sometimes our timers are down, it would be nice to have that option up. Sometimes I find myself wanting to save a friend, or myself and that rage timer just isn't cooperating ya know? Don't think it would be that over powering as our pets are hardly walking metallic fortresses of indestructibility (Well outside of abyssea for the most part). And you do know.. you aren't always playing in abyssea.

2. Ability to Heal our avatars: Not just Hit points, but status ailments. Even if it meant taking it onto ourselves similar to the white mage spell sacrifice? Sometimes it's not practical to release and resummon. Wouldn't that make Myrkr even more useful? It seems kind of silly that we can't maintain our own pets in this manner.. heck any manner really. Bst have it down, they can feed their pets food: I was happy when I got reward. As dragoon, I was damn skippy happy when I got Spirit Link cause I Was tired of AoE killing my wyvern all the time (Still happened.. but at least he lived a little longer).

3. Spells that buff our avatars: Give us spells that give our avatars buffs. Summoner native versions of protect/shell and the likes. Heck make it all the pets. Why not just make it so you can actually cast white magic buffs on them? Adventure fellows got this mechanic, I don't see why it can't be applied to pets. Dragoon Wyverns get this benefit when Empathy is used. Why can't Bst/drg/pup/smn pets have buffs cast on them like Fellows and players?

4. Toggle the the auto attack on avatars. >.< I've adjusted over the years.... but I can't tell you how many times I've seen some smn noob it up when you sleep mobs and their avatar goes happy go lucky wapping along on sleeping mobs or bound mobs because they aren't paying attention! On most any mmo out there this is a toggled setting. passive/aggressive/defensive, or automatic/manual, or alert/passive, or what have you. Here it's OMFG I'm going to eat you!!! mode 100% of the time >.>

2. Say Hello to Dawn Mulsum.

[Dallas]

You don't play like Dallas, you're a gimp noob!

Please read the posts in order. Thanks! This thread was made because all pet jobs are inherently gimp, forcing players to think that being gimp is by design. I don't think I accused any gimpiness in this thread of being the fault of noobs. Mediocrity has always been a goal of veterans.

I'm holding back because the summoner is simply stronger than the avatar. Think of it like DDs subbing /NIN for shadows. That's where melee SMN has arrived. It is unacceptable for a RNG to fire their bow less, and it is unacceptable for a SMN to discard the only improving portion of their damage.

If being the best at what you do doesn't interest you, you don't have to follow me. You should know that means never tanking in Abyssea either.

[Karinya_of_Carbuncle]

I've actually seen Heavenly Strike peak around 11,000 thanks to set bonus

SMN is a great job, but the 45 second BP timer is too restricting

Yes, how dare they make you wait 45 whole seconds to do another 11,000 damage. You should be able to do 11,000 damage every ten seconds, nay, every second if you feel like it.

...You're talking about something that's 2-3 times stronger than the strongest nuke in the game (for no additional MP) AND puts no enmity on you and you're crying about 45 seconds of recast? Sheesh.

Go cry to the THFs, who rely on one minute JA timers that can't be reduced by gear at all. (Actually... if they can make -JA timer gear for one job, why can't they make it for two? That might help some of THF's problems without making it less THF-like. But that's off topic for this thread.)

[Korpg]

Most of it is in my post on page 3, right before your complaint that I never reveal my secrets, which is why I sent you to the Summoner's forum to find it.

Best DD atma so far: RR, VV, SA. Why?
1) All 3 sources of damage benefit from physical atma, instead of just one. Damage is miles beyond that of a solid magic pact build. Not even the people in this thread were willing to believe the damage output of a staff that has only 4% less DOT rating than emp GK.
2) Spirit Taker and Myrkr provide more than enough MP for SMN. Minikin is a waste of an atma slot except to deal magic damage. I was getting 300-800 MP return with Spirit Taker on my OA4 staff.
3) Our best melee buff is on the avatar with the strongest physical BP.
4) Physical BPs do not drain pettp. That means a physical build is almost always accompanied by 507 AOE heals.
5) The rules for DD are well known. I'm just following those rules.

Some day I may replace VV with Apoc, but I need /WHM for all the other crazy stuff I do. There's enough downtime that +2 regain outweighs triple attack.

Well, you said "most" of it is on Page 3, but all I see is just certain stats (21% haste, 7% double attack). I'm just wondering where you get those numbers without pulling it out of your...you know.

Favorite part though. "Best DD atma so far: RR, VV, SA." "Some day I may replace VV with Apoc, but I need /WHM for all the other crazy stuff I do." Didn't you also say that you need /WHM for "RR only" once? Also, why are you thinking of replacing VV with Apoc when you have SA that could be replaced with? At least you would have the same atmas as actual DDs in that case. But I'm sure that STR+40, Att+50 is sooooo much better than Triple Attack+15%, especially for an avatar that does not have even double attack capabilities without atma.

But you still haven't posted your gears.

Guess what though, I'll post my gears and atma usage for you to show you the best possible damage you can have from avatar alone.

Fay Staff (perp-3, Pet:Att+7/RA+7, Pet:MAB+3) I got lucky, first fay staff I got too.
Emp+2 full set (well, I'm 3/5, going for 5/5 as soon as possible, only have +1 horn and gloves atm)
SMN skill stuff (you know, like the sea cape, SMN belt, SMN earring, Caller's Pendant, stuff like that)
Soulscourge (for BP:R, to help proc the set bonus)
Caller's Sash (set on macro for magical damage BP:R)
YY Robe/Relic stuff (for BP-)
MP+ gear (whatever slots are left to fill)

Atma of choice:
Minkin/Beyond/Ultimate for high-end Magical damage (BP of choice: Heavenly Strike, go figure) Although if I need to change up magical damage, I just replace Beyond with any other elemental damage +%.
Minkin/Ducal Guard/Mounted Champion for soloing. Because most anything that I fight solo can just have one avatar on it. Without worry of losing mp or HP if I get hit with an AoE. Only thing I really worry about are spellcasters, because ducal guard only works for reducing physical damage down alot. Single element spellcasters aren't a worry though, because I'll just sic an avatar thats strong against that element.
Minkin/RR/Apoc for Physical damage Avatars, because I find that having a Set proc with an Apoc proc to do as much damage as a Set proc with Magical damage. But for magical damage resistant/absorb mobs. Sometimes even better if you are fighting something with a little more "oomph" against certain types of damage, like blunt and Chaotic Strike. Best damage I have done to a Teek is 11k or so.

Why am I doing Minkin? Because I still get free avatars with the gear I have listed above, and I don't have to try to be a substandard DD to get back all the mp I use from BP:R/W. You would be amazed about how much MP a +10 refresh can give you back in a 45 second time frame.

Now, can you post your "21% haste/7% double attack" for us? I would love to see that.

[Korpg]

If being the best at what you do doesn't interest you, you don't have to follow me.

Since when was SMN a front line job? Is it because SMNs have the highest staff skill among all mages that makes it a front line job?

When are you going to suggest that Dark Knights should stay in the back and nuke from a distance? Or that Red Mages should also melee, since they have En-spells and the same sword and dagger skill level as a SMN with staff skill.

For soloing, if you want to melee, by all means, go ahead. You aren't hurting anyone else in the process (hence, solo).

For partying, if you want to melee, by all means, go ahead. Just don't blame others if the mob is spamming TP moves at 80% and the WHM is already out of mp (even in abyssea!), and people are dying.

But, seriously, thats got to be the best quote of the day! And the day just got started too!

[Karbuncle]

Yes, how dare they make you wait 45 whole seconds to do another 11,000 damage. You should be able to do 11,000 damage every ten seconds, nay, every second if you feel like it.

...You're talking about something that's 2-3 times stronger than the strongest nuke in the game (for no additional MP) AND puts no enmity on you and you're crying about 45 seconds of recast? Sheesh.

Go cry to the THFs, who rely on one minute JA timers that can't be reduced by gear at all. (Actually... if they can make -JA timer gear for one job, why can't they make it for two? That might help some of THF's problems without making it less THF-like. But that's off topic for this thread.)

I am a THF. I've posted about THF stuff on these boards SEVERAL times, including my disdain for how THF Job Abilities rely solely on being in a party. Just because THF isn't in the greatest shape doesn't mean its a bad job.

If you're not a gimp THF, you can do way more than 11,000 DMG in 45 Seconds. You can get TP in like ~10Seconds or less based on the buffs you have and Evisc' will average ~2.5k~3.k on anything Meaningful in abyssea. That adds up, through melee Damage, way more than 11,000DMG.

THIRDLY, 11,000 is only with SET PROC, which is roughly ~10% Chance to proc when Blood boon Activates, Its really really low. So you average ~5.5k DMG eveyr 45 seconds. Which is incredibly low compared to any other DD worth their party spot.

Enmity doesn't matter as much these days if you're going to actually bring up the "hate free' aspect of it, Even BLMs don't have to worry about it as much with Mana Wall and Enmity Douse. While its a nice bonus, its not enough of a reason to warrant a drawn out BP Timer these days.

BP Timer is too Restricting, Any DD worth his slot in a party can dish out 2x the damage a SMN can in that time, from Melee damage and WS Frequency.

It gets even worse if the DD in question actually gets March or haste frequently.

[Korpg]

...You're talking about something that's 2-3 times stronger than the strongest nuke in the game (for no additional MP) AND puts no enmity on you and you're crying about 45 seconds of recast? Sheesh.


1) Set bonus from BLM Emp +2 can do just as much damage as Set bonus from SMN Emp +2. BLMs have the advantage because they can cast a lot more than once ever 45 seconds.

2) Blood Pacts cost MP to the Summoner. So, yeah, it still costs mp to do that 11k attack. Although, 1/8 as much MP for BP:R. But then again, BLM Emp +2 set also reduces Bliz V to 1/8 as much MP for double damage.

[Dallas]

Since when was SMN a front line job?

Do you need one reason, or will a dozen suffice?

1) Since Spirit Taker was always better than resting.
2) Since the Feed TP excuse was ignored by every other job in the game. Zerg has been the way for YEARS. Even WHM melee.
3) Since avatars are summoned next to the summoner and since AOE buffs and heals are centered around the avatar.
4) Since 75 pacts originally didn't exist and the the 70 Pacts are only melee range (and used to fail any further away).
5) Since SMN get no native healing magic skill, enhancing magic skill, enfeebling magic skill, etc.
6) Since SMN does have access to a lot of good melee gear. (Look it up, 23% haste is the max right now)
7) Since WHM *can* keep people alive, and always have. They melee too.
8) What idiot came up with the idea that SMN should never die anyway? Avatars are full strength if SMN die once or ten times.
9) Speaking of dying, hard to do if that avatar is out using an AOE heal and the SMN stops to use an AOE heal, maybe even with divine seal. Doesn't happen alot though... look at #7.
10) Since Myrkr is even more powerful than Spirit Taker. Spirit Taker has a multiplier of x1.0. So does a normal hit. One double damage hit = one normal hit + one Spirit Taker damage. Only works if you melee.
11) Since more damage = faster kills = less damage taken by party = less stress on real healers.
12) Last, but certainly not least, all the fun posts from people saying "how dare you play this pet job identical to BST or PUP."

Oh, for the bakers out there:

13) Knowing that every time someone tells you that you suck, they propose some subset of what you do.

[Soundwave]

1) Allow /BST subbed Snarl to work for Avatars, Wyvern and Automatons. I really don't think DRG would use it, but why not show them the love too?
2) Allow all avatar buffs/heals to at least hit other avatars, but I vote for all pets. 2 Garudas should be able to heal each other.
3) Put back in the code that allowed pets to benefit from DNC Sambas. We loved this "error."
4) Enhance COR pet rolls to account for the fact that no player will benefit from any rolls.
5) Introduce AOE pet food that works on all pets in the pt.
6) Please please please introduce armor for SMN, BST, DRG, and PUP that equally buffs both the player and the pet.

1.) I would welcome this, another tool in the bag.
2.) A group of summoners can take down really anything letting them heal other avatars would be a bit imba.
3.) Ya would love to see this back lol...
4.) Interesting
5.) Love this idea.
6.) Can't complain on this everybody looks forward to more gear but some jobs due lack.

Thanks for making this thread, there really needs to be more of these.

[Karbuncle]

2.) A group of summoners can take down really anything letting them heal other avatars would be a bit imba.


Agree with all but 2 :)

Really, a group of anything can take down really anything, so thats not a fair representation. DRGs can cure their pets with Spirit Link, Puppets got Oil, and BST's have jugs. giving SMNs some way to heal their avatars (Aside from a few with Healing BPs) would be nice.

Can't be anymore broken than 100%PDT BST pets and Pet food Zeta in Abyssea. SMN is a fun powerful job, i agree.

On another note, there is an item called "Dawn Mulsum" that cures your pet in game right now. its pretty neat.

[Malamasala]

This thread was made because all pet jobs are inherently gimp, forcing players to think that being gimp is by design.

I wouldn't call them gimp. Pets are perfectly balanced BEFORE buffs. It is just the buffing system that is a huge failure. You really shouldn't be able to do 100 times as much damage in a minute by applying a full set of buffs.

[Dallas]

I wouldn't call them gimp. Pets are perfectly balanced BEFORE buffs. It is just the buffing system that is a huge failure. You really shouldn't be able to do 100 times as much damage in a minute by applying a full set of buffs.

And thus pets only work in non-buff settings, which is bad for pet jobs. I think once we get some sort of compatibility with other jobs, other jobs will like us more.

[Alhanelem]

If being the best at what you do doesn't interest you, you don't have to follow me.There you go. If you're not doing what Dallas is doing, then you aren't best at what you do! Because Dallas is the official authority on what is good and not good for SMN!

Please, for the love of all that is holy, stop acting like you're the official king of summoning and that everyone who doesn't act like you is bad or gimp. Because you are not "the" summoner.

[Karbuncle]

While he may not be "The" Summoner, His logic at least is sound in theory. Practice is debatable.

Now, I know i never invite SMNs anymore as "Gimp healers", i invite them as a DD, and while it may not be much, a SMN who is meleeing with their pet is doing more damage than a SMN who isn't meleeing, assuming they're both of equal intelligence and gear, using proper macros.

So, as a SMN-DD Standpoint, Meleeing with your pet is better than not. little in this game severely needs you to limit their TP, but of course, Situational sh*t is situational, Meleeing wont always be the best way, but for your run-of-the-mill Exp parties, and NMs without devastating AoEs, its actually better.

Especially if you already gear for DD Atmas for Predator Claws.

However, also note, on some mobs Magical BPs might be better, so you should gear magical, however, again, Situational is Situational.

But when it absolutely comes down to it, If you're already gearing for PC, or even not, (You could be gearing Magical and just spamming Garland of Bliss), Meleeing will get you higher numbers, even if its only by ~10%.

But you do what you're invited too. So i repeat again, Situational Sh*t is situational.

[Korpg]

While he may not be "The" Summoner, His logic at least is sound in theory. Practice is debatable.

Now, I know i never invite SMNs anymore as "Gimp healers", i invite them as a DD, and while it may not be much, a SMN who is meleeing with their pet is doing more damage than a SMN who isn't meleeing, assuming they're both of equal intelligence and gear, using proper macros.

So, as a SMN-DD Standpoint, Meleeing with your pet is better than not. little in this game severely needs you to limit their TP, but of course, Situational sh*t is situational, Meleeing wont always be the best way, but for your run-of-the-mill Exp parties, and NMs without devastating AoEs, its actually better.

Especially if you already gear for DD Atmas for Predator Claws.

However, also note, on some mobs Magical BPs might be better, so you should gear magical, however, again, Situational is Situational.

But when it absolutely comes down to it, If you're already gearing for PC, or even not, (You could be gearing Magical and just spamming Garland of Bliss), Meleeing will get you higher numbers, even if its only by ~10%.

But you do what you're invited too. So i repeat again, Situational Sh*t is situational.

Then again, why invite a substandard DD to do damage when you can have a WAR or MNK take his place?

Or a substandard nuker when a BLM or SCH can do the same thing? Except more frequently?

But if Dallas wants to melee in his parties, by all means, let him

[Soundwave]

Agree with all but 2 :)

Really, a group of anything can take down really anything, so thats not a fair representation. DRGs can cure their pets with Spirit Link, Puppets got Oil, and BST's have jugs. giving SMNs some way to heal their avatars (Aside from a few with Healing BPs) would be nice.

Can't be anymore broken than 100%PDT BST pets and Pet food Zeta in Abyssea. SMN is a fun powerful job, i agree.

On another note, there is an item called "Dawn Mulsum" that cures your pet in game right now. its pretty neat.

Haha true thanks, wasent really thinking outside the box on that one:cool:


Then again, why invite a substandard DD to do damage when you can have a WAR or MNK take his place?

Or a substandard nuker when a BLM or SCH can do the same thing? Except more frequently?

But if Dallas wants to melee in his parties, by all means, let him

Oh I have the answer to this one...

3:03
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nHJS1ZB1LA&feature=related

Its true...Summoners are like cookies.

[Karbuncle]

Then again, why invite a substandard DD to do damage when you can have a WAR or MNK take his place?

Or a substandard nuker when a BLM or SCH can do the same thing? Except more frequently?

But if Dallas wants to melee in his parties, by all means, let him

I get what you're saying Korpg, I really really do,

But, The point isn't "Why invite this over that", The argument i've made is based on the assumption if i invite a SMN, he'll be a DD.

So, The point is, if you invite a SMN To DD for whatever reason, Meleeing with your avatar will make you do more damage.

Nothing else matters, no other reasons or excuses. If you're invited to DD, You'll be doing more damage by meleeing with your pet.

Like i said, Its situational at best, But the core of his argument is sound. Not every aspect of it, but the idea that Meleeing with your pet = More Damage is true.

You fullfil the role you're invited for, Its all Situational.

[Korpg]

Do you need one reason, or will a dozen suffice?

1) Since Spirit Taker was always better than resting.
2) Since the Feed TP excuse was ignored by every other job in the game. Zerg has been the way for YEARS. Even WHM melee.
3) Since avatars are summoned next to the summoner and since AOE buffs and heals are centered around the avatar.
4) Since 75 pacts originally didn't exist and the the 70 Pacts are only melee range (and used to fail any further away).
5) Since SMN get no native healing magic skill, enhancing magic skill, enfeebling magic skill, etc.
6) Since SMN does have access to a lot of good melee gear. (Look it up, 23% haste is the max right now)
7) Since WHM *can* keep people alive, and always have. They melee too.
8) What idiot came up with the idea that SMN should never die anyway? Avatars are full strength if SMN die once or ten times.
9) Speaking of dying, hard to do if that avatar is out using an AOE heal and the SMN stops to use an AOE heal, maybe even with divine seal. Doesn't happen alot though... look at #7.
10) Since Myrkr is even more powerful than Spirit Taker. Spirit Taker has a multiplier of x1.0. So does a normal hit. One double damage hit = one normal hit + one Spirit Taker damage. Only works if you melee.
11) Since more damage = faster kills = less damage taken by party = less stress on real healers.
12) Last, but certainly not least, all the fun posts from people saying "how dare you play this pet job identical to BST or PUP."

Oh, for the bakers out there:

13) Knowing that every time someone tells you that you suck, they propose some subset of what you do.

1) MP is still an issue? Since when?
2) When you are fighting a mob that doesn't spam high damage AoE, go ahead, melee and beat that gimp DRK in damage. As for WHM melee, they only did it in lowman situations, you can't really keep up with the cures if you are also the one needing cures. Don't you remember how PLD kept hate?
3) And thats why you move to the center of the party to give those AoE buffs. Nothing is stopping you from walking towards a mob to give out buffs....if the party actually needs those buffs.
4) Again, nothing stopping you from BP and release, or nowadays BP and let the avatar whack on the mob.
5) So, you saying that anyone who has native healing magic, enhancing magic, and/or enfeebling magic can't melee? Sorry PLD and DRKs out there.
6) 26% haste is the max, and most, if not all actual melees can get it. You still haven't told me your gear set either, I don't know how you get 21% or 23% haste plus 7% double attack.
7) WHM can always keep people alive, but if they are meleeing they can't target people quickly, much less target people outside their party as quickly as they are, you know, not meleeing. WHM melee and cure setups are only good for 6 people or less in order for them to be effective.
8) Keep dying then. That 30 second recast timer on Garuda will become 1 minute, and if you don't have ability to RR or have Apoc atma, then that 1 minute will turn into 1 raise per mob. Cause the WHM ain't raising you for meleeing that NM.
9) Yeah, AoE heal every 45 seconds for what, 507 max really helps out a lot. Thats only if you have 300% TP on Garuda. Or you could use Carbuncle for more recovery than that.
10) Is that staff really worth the effort it take, plus the additional cost of perp to properly equip it? You can get 75% of your MP back every 100%, but if you constantly die, you can't keep your avatar on the mob all the time. So, where do you get your MP back from? I can have a free avatar, still do a lot of damage, and if my avatar dies? Just resummon it. Low chance of me dying from AoE that way. And who knows, having a disposable avatar for free actually can help people out during a mini-wipe where people need to recover. But you won't have the mp for it because the only way for you to recover mp is by TPing on the mob
11) More swings = more TP for the mob = more AoE moves = more stress for the healers = more chance for a wipe.
12) No comment
13) Wait, isn't that what you are doing? Aren't you saying I suck for not meleeing? Kindof like the "Pot/Kettle" argument.

[Korpg]

I get what you're saying Korpg, I really really do,

But, The point isn't "Why invite this over that", The argument i've made is based on the assumption if i invite a SMN, he'll be a DD.

So, The point is, if you invite a SMN To DD for whatever reason, Meleeing with your avatar will make you do more damage.

Nothing else matters, no other reasons or excuses. If you're invited to DD, You'll be doing more damage by meleeing with your pet.

Like i said, Its situational at best, But the core of his argument is sound. Not every aspect of it, but the idea that Meleeing with your pet = More Damage is true.

You fullfil the role you're invited for, Its all Situational.

I just don't want new SMNs out there to think this is the gospel (as Dallas is preaching it as to be) and end up creating more havoc than harmony.

[Dallas]

Please, for the love of all that is holy, stop acting like you're the official king of summoning

Because I know it's eating you up inside to think that anyone might listen to what I have to say:

http://forums.ffxiclopedia.org/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=26324

It wasn't even my idea to stack -PDT to tank with a pet. I just took his good idea and made it a perfect idea. Props to the idea originator, Skyfaller.

Yes, my original idea was "melee for mp." It still works. I can't be bothered if you don't have any ideas.

[Karbuncle]

I just don't want new SMNs out there to think this is the gospel (as Dallas is preaching it as to be) and end up creating more havoc than harmony.

I agree SMN melee is not the only way, I just feel his idea is sound in theory. Trying to think of the best way to word what I'm trying to convey.

While his methods lead desiring, his theory is sound. We should look into it openly.

[Tannlore]

I just don't want new SMNs out there to think this is the gospel (as Dallas is preaching it as to be) and end up creating more havoc than harmony.

Why not let new summoners find this out for themselves? They will either find out the like it or they don't. Those that do will take off with it and push this style to the limits and discover some rather interesting results we haven't found out yet. Frankly I'm very curious about what Dallas has found out yet. I remember him pushing the melee point for a long time back on Ffxiclopedia's forums when he and Miraum would go at it for pages and pages in discussion.

I think his play style has quite a bit of merit, especially now with atmas, and once I complete my Emp weapon I plan on trying it out to the fullest myself just so I can explore different play styles with my smn job.

[Kayn]

so this thread is now focusing on why SMN should or should not melee... rigth...

as a pet job user (PUP) i dont see why on a regular experience mob a SMN should not melee. seriously this is not the bird meripo world that we used to live in anymore, and you wont see a summoner meleeing on a big nm, because surprise! No one does, until all procs are done and you actually need to kill the thing, and everything goes down so fast that it is hardly of any importance who is meleeing or not.

what i love about this new era, is that apparently, all jobs are doing what they are supposed to do, blm is top nuker, rdm is enfeebler,whm is the top healer, smn is a dd, and so on and so fort, and some even found new roles, like monk tanking for example.

I for once welcome our new SE overlords for doinitrite.

[Glamdring]

any pet job, and any other job for that matter, can melee if they choose at their own risk! Honestly, as long as you're getting your role in the party done who cares if you're waving a big stick around? Oh sure, the same people who always complain about "you're just feeding the mob TP" will do so, but since every melee DD on it is doing the same it's a very stupid argument. Noone was advocating meleeing on magic-only strats.

In aby there's a very practical reason for mages to melee... !! procs. If the mages are covering staff, club, dagger, scythe and sword procs then the other DD can focus on the other weapons, and the mages don't need to waste an Atma on regain, taking away from those things that do benefit their job most.

But be warned mages, if you die meleeing you are generally on your own! After all, you are the one with access to raise/reraise, not the DD as a rule. You are also the ones with all the cures! Sure dancer, but if the dancer is DD he may not have TP when you get whacked for 80-90% of your HP in 1 whack. And if you are doing your mage role, too there's a pretty good chance you will be taking hate at some point, especially in these tankless days.

[Korpg]

Why not let new summoners find this out for themselves? They will either find out the like it or they don't. Those that do will take off with it and push this style to the limits and discover some rather interesting results we haven't found out yet. Frankly I'm very curious about what Dallas has found out yet. I remember him pushing the melee point for a long time back on Ffxiclopedia's forums when he and Miraum would go at it for pages and pages in discussion.

I think his play style has quite a bit of merit, especially now with atmas, and once I complete my Emp weapon I plan on trying it out to the fullest myself just so I can explore different play styles with my smn job.

For his idea to work for new summoners, that would require a lot of effort in their part. We seen average players, do you expect people in general to give a hoot about SMN enough to put themselves in Dallas's level? Yes, he seems to be a top rank SMN, but that is because he worked hard at it. Do you expect others to have the same level of dedication that Dallas has?

Instead, they will be substandard DDs where they might, more than likely, have a different job that would do the same thing he is doing, but much better. Much much better.

There are already melees out there doing the same thing Dallas is doing. If Dallas put in the same amount of effort in WAR than he has in melee SMN, then he would be a top notch WAR and do a lot more damage and be a lot more useful than he would be as a melee SMN. SMNs are not ment to do the magnitude of damage they do by meleeing, that is the avatar's job. Being able to switch out damage types, magical damage, and buff all at once is what makes SMNs so special.

[Korpg]

any pet job, and any other job for that matter, can melee if they choose at their own risk! Honestly, as long as you're getting your role in the party done who cares if you're waving a big stick around? Oh sure, the same people who always complain about "you're just feeding the mob TP" will do so, but since every melee DD on it is doing the same it's a very stupid argument. Noone was advocating meleeing on magic-only strats.

In aby there's a very practical reason for mages to melee... !! procs. If the mages are covering staff, club, dagger, scythe and sword procs then the other DD can focus on the other weapons, and the mages don't need to waste an Atma on regain, taking away from those things that do benefit their job most.

But be warned mages, if you die meleeing you are generally on your own! After all, you are the one with access to raise/reraise, not the DD as a rule. You are also the ones with all the cures! Sure dancer, but if the dancer is DD he may not have TP when you get whacked for 80-90% of your HP in 1 whack. And if you are doing your mage role, too there's a pretty good chance you will be taking hate at some point, especially in these tankless days.

While I agree with you in most of the post, the middle paragraph, I just have one thing to say: Abyssite of Discernment would like to have a word with you.

[Soundwave]

any pet job, and any other job for that matter, can melee if they choose at their own risk! Honestly, as long as you're getting your role in the party done who cares if you're waving a big stick around? Oh sure, the same people who always complain about "you're just feeding the mob TP" will do so, but since every melee DD on it is doing the same it's a very stupid argument. Noone was advocating meleeing on magic-only strats.

In aby there's a very practical reason for mages to melee... !! procs. If the mages are covering staff, club, dagger, scythe and sword procs then the other DD can focus on the other weapons, and the mages don't need to waste an Atma on regain, taking away from those things that do benefit their job most.

But be warned mages, if you die meleeing you are generally on your own! After all, you are the one with access to raise/reraise, not the DD as a rule. You are also the ones with all the cures! Sure dancer, but if the dancer is DD he may not have TP when you get whacked for 80-90% of your HP in 1 whack. And if you are doing your mage role, too there's a pretty good chance you will be taking hate at some point, especially in these tankless days.

I feel the same way when I want to contribute to some more damage, I'm on my own! nobody gonna cure my ace! lol

[Dallas]

If Dallas put in the same amount of effort in WAR than he has in melee SMN, then he would be a top notch WAR and do a lot more damage and be a lot more useful than he would be as a melee SMN.

Care to expand your "go level another job" argument to the other 3 pet jobs in this thread, none with the killing power of a top-notch WAR? As long as top notch SMN is better than an "average WAR," I'm going to be invited to DD every time.

Tannlore, I've just made large leaps in my Hvergelmir build. I'll be posting on my build soon. :D

[Korpg]

Care to expand your "go level another job" argument to the other 3 pet jobs in this thread, none with the killing power of a top-notch WAR? As long as top notch SMN is better than an "average WAR," I'm going to be invited to DD every time.

If average means Harby WAR, then yes, you will beat an "average WAR."

If average means Emp+1, the actual standard now, then no, you will never beat an "average WAR."

But even then, you have to go to great lengths and effort to create a weapon that would do about as much damage meleeing (with your avatar counted, of course) and weaken your avatar to compensate your gear needed to actually hit an 80% hit rate with 21% haste (or is it 23% now, your numbers keep changing) to try to beat an undergeared WAR.

As for the other jobs, I'm absolutely positive that BST and DRG can do more damage than me, well geared and with Emp weapons at 90 that is. But then again, they are given the tools to do so. PUP too, as far as I can understand. But if I get my Emp weapon, I would be able to give them a run for their money. Even for the gear I got I can still keep up with the damage as they can produce, but I would require buffs (food) to do so.

[Glamdring]

While I agree with you in most of the post, the middle paragraph, I just have one thing to say: Abyssite of Discernment would like to have a word with you.

u still gotta whack something to get hints...

[Dallas]

If average means Emp+1, the actual standard now, then no, you will never beat an "average WAR."


That wasn't a question. All top pet jobs surpass the average WAR.

[Korpg]

That wasn't a question. All top pet jobs surpass the average WAR.

You got proof to back that assertion up?

[Alhanelem]

Now, I know i never invite SMNs anymore as "Gimp healers", i invite them as a DD, and while it may not be much, a SMN who is meleeing with their pet is doing more damage than a SMN who isn't meleeing, assuming they're both of equal intelligence and gear, using proper macros.

So, as a SMN-DD Standpoint, Meleeing with your pet is better than not. little in this game severely needs you to limit their TP, but of course, Situational sh*t is situational, Meleeing wont always be the best way, but for your run-of-the-mill Exp parties, and NMs without devastating AoEs, its actually better.Pretty much how I feel. I do think SM can be played many different ways and all of them can be useful. That siad, the SMN has a wide range of tools at its disposal and it's shortsighted at best to just declare one playstyle the best and anything else is gimp, which is what Dallas does.


I can't be bothered if you don't have any ideas. Can't be bothered to what? And I do have ideas. But I don't post them in your presence because it will just turn into a thread about how great you are and how you're right and everyone else except you and people who directly follow your philosophy is wrong. I talk about how I use merit pacts on this one NM, you say nothing useful and just say "oh that's gimp, you're gimping yourself if u don't melee it with DD atma." You're so blinded by how awesome you think you are that you can't consider that there are other ways of doing things.


I just don't want new SMNs out there to think this is the gospel (as Dallas is preaching it as to be) and end up creating more havoc than harmony.+1. It's a strong and useful tool, but we shouldn't be making out anyone who doesn't practice it to be poor players.

[Dallas]

You got proof to back that assertion up?

That's the nice thing about this exchange. You reached your conclusion a long time ago without asking for proof. Here's what I will do for you: Hver 90 DOT is 7.5% less than Ukon 90 DOT. What "average WAR" weapon do you want to defend?


Can't be bothered to what? And I do have ideas.
I will have to take your word for it that your ideas are less worthy of +1 posts than what you do feel is important to write.

[Korpg]

That's the nice thing about this exchange. You reached your conclusion a long time ago without asking for proof. Here's what I will do for you: Hver 90 DOT is 7.5% less than Ukon 90 DOT. What "average WAR" weapon do you want to defend?


What I stated was common fact. What you are giving everyone is your conjecture. There is a difference between the two.

How do you get your numbers? How in the world can you get 95% hit rate on Hver? Even with food the best you can get is 85% on anything important. My gimped Great Sword can hit with more accuracy than a capped and merited SMN can with Staff. It doesn't have to do with skill either, it has to do mainly with accuracy gear. SMNs don't have much for Acc+ gear. Peacock Charm/Amulet, Snipers+1/Adder Ring, Potent Belt (kills some of your haste though, but you can get 21/23% haste without belt slot anyway, right?). Can't think of anything else that gives Acc for SMN though. Maybe its because, you know, SMNs don't really melee that much? I mean yeah, Nirvana has +30 Acc on it, but, we all know you don't have that, so how do you figure you get all this acc gear to compensate for SMNs bad melee skill to be able to do this whole "7.5% lets DOT than Ukon 90" thing?

You still haven't posted your 21/23% haste gear, 7% double attack, and all that "uber" gear you state you have to make your staff melee worthy...

[Malamasala]

Maybe its because, you know, SMNs don't really melee that much?

You got that backwards. SMN don't melee because SE never adds any armors for the job. We are in the situation 2006 PUPs were, with only mage gear options. And they keep failing at each and every update year after year, while they quickly boosted PUPs up to god levels.

The guy in charge of Summoner updates is the history's worst game developer and should be fired post haste. How can you be so dumb that you give WHM and BLM armors to a job without spells? The only thing a Summoner has, is an avatar and a staff. Even a five year old would understand that melee stats is the way to go.

Heck, Summoner hasn't even been treated as a real job since it was added. It is viewed as that cool storyline job with fireworks. What was our first armor? Artificat Armor, and it was a failure. Second? Relic Armor. Third? Austere. Fourth? Empyrean Armor. That's 4 armor sets in 7+ years. We get 5 pieces of armor every second year. Ignored much?

PS. There isn't a single Summoner armor in today's list of new synergy augment armors. There is BLM armors wearable by SMN, but why'd we wear those when they most likely can't get 4 Summoner related augments to make up for the useless BLM stats.

[Dallas]

What I stated was common fact. What you are giving everyone is your conjecture. There is a difference between the two.

The difference is I don't need to ask for a haste gear build. Zelus/Tern/Goliard/Nashira/ASA, which you would know if you looked where I told you to look. Common facts about melee SMN are available because I posted them.

Hver 90 is 300% better at melee than some lazy SMN weapon like Soulscourge. The average WAR is lazy, just like most SMN. I asked you to pick an "average WAR" weapon for a reason. I trust you to pick something a lazy person can get. That weapon will have a measurable level of gimp compared to Ukon 90, and in turn, to Hver 90.

"Common facts" used to claim 20% accuracy, drain the WHM completely of MP through TP feeding, and my favorite "0 mp Spirit Takers." I didn't work that hard to destroy those. I'll take your 85% accuracy at face value even though you probably made that up. It's not as important as you think.

[Glamdring]

oh, Acc is important. I'm an elf, I can't hit the ground reliably... while taking a leak!

But seriously, smn does suffer in the melee department, not so much from acc or low, slow damage compared to other jobs, but because even a blm takes a hit better. If you wanna melee go for it, I've never cared as long as you are fulfilling your role in the party build. But you can't fulfill it dead so you better watch that because if you are killing the pt I'll boot you while you are dead without even a moment's regret. It's called priorities, I doubt I invited you for your vast melee prowess to my pt, I invited you for what your pet can do and (usually) to back-up heal. If you can accomplish anything melee, good for you, but I look at it as a bonus, not an expectation.

Your avatars can benefit from Dd Atma, or many others for that matter. You need one for refresh at least to recover from what you use with bloodpacts and the like, even with all your other MP tools if the pt is moving at an acceptable pace, so that will gimp you a bit; solo I say do what you feel.

[Korpg]

The difference is I don't need to ask for a haste gear build. Zelus/Tern/Goliard/Nashira/ASA, which you would know if you looked where I told you to look. Common facts about melee SMN are available because I posted them.

Zelus: 8% Haste (hat)
Tern Set: 6% Haste (cape/neck/waste)
Goliard: 4% Haste (body)
Nashira: 3% Haste (feet/hands)
ASA: 2% Double Attack/4% Haste. Assuming you got those specific stats on them.
Knowing you, you would wear a Raja's Ring for melee SMN. Maybe an Acc+ ring.

So, your total stats so far is 25% Haste (wow, even your changing numbers were still wrong) and 2% double attack (which really helps you out alot).

Adding Pole Strap gives you 4% double attack. Still don't know your earrings, but that covers every slot that you could equip with acc+ gear on pretty much. That means with your 351 (giving you 8/8 merits on that one) staff skill, you are only adding +13 (as much as +17) accuracy. Meaning, anything that is IT or greater, you are wiffing about 20~25% of the time. And you still compare yourself to "average" WARs, who can get 95% accuracy rate without even trying?

Real effective melee rating if you ask me. Lets also look at your attack while we are at it.

Hmm, +3 from Tern alone? Thats really going to help out a lot with DoT. Unless you wear Att+ earrings.



Hver 90 is 300% better at melee than some lazy SMN weapon like Soulscourge. The average WAR is lazy, just like most SMN. I asked you to pick an "average WAR" weapon for a reason. I trust you to pick something a lazy person can get. That weapon will have a measurable level of gimp compared to Ukon 90, and in turn, to Hver 90.

A WAR with a Byakko's Axe could out damage you with your setup. Including Avatar. And thats a "gimp" WAR.


"Common facts" used to claim 20% accuracy, drain the WHM completely of MP through TP feeding, and my favorite "0 mp Spirit Takers." I didn't work that hard to destroy those. I'll take your 85% accuracy at face value even though you probably made that up. It's not as important as you think.

I gave you the benefit of the doubt when I said 85% accuracy rate. Also, got to love the bolded part.

If you don't think Accuracy is important, go level an actual melee job. Like DRK.

What is the point in swinging if you can't make sure you hit at least 90% of the time? Even gimp melees hit 90% of the time.

[Dallas]

To clarify, I'm going to ignore that 3 items you have used in your calculations have wrong numbers. You forgot Brutal entirely. It's not important, because the person who will melee for DD already has the gear.

Instead, I'm going to wonder how in all your efforts to prove SMN can't hit the broad side of a barn (in Abyssea, where all the barns are) you ignored the DEX modifier to accuracy? RR Atma + Cruor buffs is upwards of +90 DEX. Add that to the 80ish I have natively, and my hit rate is at least 40% better than your calculation, without gear. Capped? It's pretty obvious I am. That has nothing to do with why it isn't important, btw.

So, to be clear, you want to commit to a gimp WAR using an axe that is 26% less DOT than Hver 90, not even considering the high percentage ODD aftermath? You want to argue a weapon half as strong, but in the hands of a WAR, will outperform a SMN? Very well, my attack was 530ish last time I checked. Describe how to double that WAR's output.

[Korpg]

To clarify, I'm going to ignore that 3 items you have used in your calculations have wrong numbers. You forgot Brutal entirely. It's not important, because the person who will melee for DD already has the gear.

Which 3 items did I use in my calculations with wrong numbers? Was it Tern, with a set bonus of 6% haste?
Zelus, which is Evasion-5 Haste+8%?
Goliard Saio, which has Haste +4%, among other unimportant (but still not melee worthy) stats?

Nashira and ASA has 1 less Haste % than I originally reported, being that I didn't look either up when I wrote that, just going off of memory. I do know that the DA was correct though, seeing so many PLDs wearing DA/Phy- pants....

But, to be clear, you want to commit to a SMN who's main WS of choice is one that does 0 damage to a mob, against a WAR, even with a weaker axe (but you want to commit to Abyssea, so lets do that too) but doing a WS that crits...with atmas that increases crit rate and damage.....and say that they have 26% less DOT?

Yeah, keep going with that. Just remember I'm talking about a gimp WAR, with a very outdated axe, being able to out DOT you.

Oh, and if you want. Wearing a GA, my WAR can get 595 attack naked. Thats right, naked. Forget all that + attack gear I have, or food, or cruor buffs, I have more attack than you do even fully buffed up. Plus Berserk. Lets not forget Job Abilities. I, and most other WARs, can break the 999 cap very easy. Can you?

[Dallas]

OK, so I got you to stop typing the word Accuracy, let's try this one on for size...

SMN has 13% MORE natural haste than WAR.

Foreshadowing: 170 DEX is not the biggest error you have made, not by a long shot. You do play SMN, right? How do you think a SMN is going to deal damage comparable to a WARs WS? It's a word I have not seen you post since you used the word "gimp." The moment you realize what you've forgotten, I'll count your posts for you.

[Korpg]

OK, so I got you to stop typing the word Accuracy, let's try this one on for size...

SMN has 13% MORE natural haste than WAR.

Foreshadowing: 170 DEX is not the biggest error you have made, not by a long shot. You do play SMN, right? How do you think a SMN is going to deal damage comparable to a WARs WS? It's a word I have not seen you post since you used the word "gimp." The moment you realize what you've forgotten, I'll count your posts for you.

You are the one who said Accuracy is unimportant. I doubt I would be able to change your mind, so go ahead and wiff away.

But I didn't know that SMN has a Job Trait simular to MNK's Martial Arts. I mean, you did say that SMN has 13% more natural haste than WAR. So that means that they can swing faster than a WAR can wearing the exact same delay weapon, no haste on either job. Without any haste spells or songs or rolls. Is that correct?

But since you question me about SMN, lets go ahead and state this. Have you fought anything hard by yourself? Do you know how to solo as a SMN? Since, you know, SMNs excel at soloing, probably more than most any jobs (except our fellow pet jobs).

Also, you mentioned how a SMN is going to deal damage comparable to a WARs WS. I don't know. I would rather do 3k damage every 7-10 seconds compared to doing 3k damage every 45 seconds. Assuming, of course, that you could get BP gear that low. I mean, you don't have any perp gear on, you can't for the life of you keep mp without using Myrkr all of the time, and you claim to cause yourself enough hate that you can't stay alive long.

170 DEX is nice, but you still wiff too much inside. Maybe it is you who hasn't been inside abyssea and melee NMs that are equal to or greater than your level. Or actually fought them, by yourself, because you know you can't do it.

Well, sorry, but I can. And I have. And I will continue to do so. And I don't melee to kill them either. Not because I'm "lazy" but because I know better than to give myself more hate than one hit from my avatar can take away.

[Dallas]

LOL. Are you honestly trying to say your 85% accuracy number included the 170 DEX you didn't know existed on SMN? Why do you bother?

Also, until YOU can post why SMN has more haste than WAR, this conversation has reached its conclusion. It's that dirty little word that makes every single one of your arguments fall apart.

[Korpg]

LOL. Are you honestly trying to say your 85% accuracy number included the 170 DEX you didn't know existed on SMN? Why do you bother?

Also, until YOU can post why SMN has more haste than WAR, this conversation has reached its conclusion. It's that dirty little word that makes every single one of your arguments fall apart.

I'm saying that NMs have more evasion that you think. If you are comparing 170 DEX to normal EP-T mobs you can find in Visions area, then you will have a 95% accuracy rate. Try that with Glavoid. I dare you. Plus, love how you assume I didn't know that 170 DEX didn't exist, I just don't care about that because every other DD can still get that and still wiff against NMs without some sort of accuracy added on. 170 DEX does not mean that you automatically get a 95% acc cap.

But if you mean Hastaga as natural haste, that isn't natural. Thats spell induced. Only thing that could be considered "natural" is MNK and PUP's Martial Arts ability, because they can't turn it off, its always on for them.

Personally, I think you can't find any other argument for why you should always melee against NMs, and give up on the matter. That's your dirty little word(s).

[Dallas]

Hastega! We've made progress! You've finally acknowledged a JOB ABILITY of SMN. Yes, any top SMN will have 13% more haste than any top WAR unless that SMN is too dumb to use the best available buffs to them.

Sure, with the addition of another job, WAR can be brought up to speed, pun intended. See my OP if you actualy intend to join my cause, but you don't get to rely on outside help in this discussion.

Next, Hastega comes from *what*? What SMN ability have you completely ignored in order to prove you are a better DD as a gimp WAR?

[Korpg]

Hastega! We've made progress! You've finally acknowledged a JOB ABILITY of SMN. Yes, any top SMN will have 13% more haste than any top WAR unless that SMN is too dumb to use the best available buffs to them.

Sure, with the addition of another job, WAR can be brought up to speed, pun intended. See my OP if you actualy intend to join my cause, but you don't get to rely on outside help in this discussion.

Next, Hastega comes from *what*? What SMN ability have you completely ignored in order to prove you are a better DD as a gimp WAR?

Go to number 25 in this link (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/natural)

Look at what it says, and see if what the above quote shows what I said.

Also, think. THINK. BPs (as mentioned before, you just IGNORE it because its an actual point and proves how wrong you are) are only 45-60 second abilities. WSs are made between 10-15 seconds depending on how geared the WAR is. Now, lets assume that both are equal in damage PER ability. Meaning, Garuda's Predator Claws is equal in damage to a WAR's Raging Rush. Even with a gimp axe, this is possible thanks to a gimp axe and crits. Without crit atma, this is still possible, just need a better axe.

So anyway, we are looking at (at best) a 45 second ability to do 4k damage compared to a WAR (at worst) ability to do 4k spike damage every 15 seconds....hmm...

Same damage, but being able to do it 4 times at worst, 8 times at best? And you still think that you can do whatever percent DoT better than a gimp WAR? Lets not forget melee hits. Even with your proc bonus you do the same damage as a WAR does on crits, maybe. WARs can do a lot more damage on crit damage now (I haven't tested out my WAR since the update however) so thats out of the bag. Non-crits? WARs still outdamage you because of the higher attack rating, skill rating, and ability to equip even HIGHER attack than you.

So, instead of throwing out numbers and saying you are the best, why not actually try to prove it? If you are comparing yourself against a level 49 WAR, you will win, even in melee damage. But compare yourself against a level 90 WAR and see how much you really do.

[Karbuncle]

Anyone go out and test how broken Crescent Fang, Tail Whip, and Mountain buster were?

Did a 2,200 Crescent Fang on a Orc in Dynamis
Did a 1,300 Tail Whip, Same place
and 1,700 Mountain Buster (Seems normal >___>?)

Thought it was pretty funny Crescent Fang was averaging ~1,600(higher than Eclipse Bite) for 19MP.

No one they're so quick to nerfing that.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

1.) What happened to the OP discussion?
2.) Being able to cast haste dose not make it natural haste.
3.) Korpg, I can't tell if the character in your sig is a dude or a chick. lol

[Alhanelem]

-edit- I think I misread what the person I quoted was referring to.

[Korpg]

1.) What happened to the OP discussion?
2.) Being able to cast haste dose not make it natural haste.
3.) Korpg, I can't tell if the character in your sig is a dude or a chick. lol

1) Who knows, nobody wants to mess with it anymore.
2) I know, right?
3) Its a dude, most common Hume Male around, according to last years stats. Probably this year also.

[Dallas]

2.) Being able to cast haste dose not make it natural haste.

I can cast a pet too. I have a pet out meleeing next to me, which also has a 1 sec/5 minute ability to give both the pet and pet owner Haste. If the WAR gets to use berserk, the SMN gets to use hastega. I know, it's inconvenient that he'll have to abandon yet another attempt to kill melee SMN.

And the thread died when the WAR butthurt began. BTW, Korpg, LMAO at an "average WAR" WSing *every* 15 seconds. How do you plan to get 100% double attack with Byakko's Axe? Yeah, the math was that easy. 15-40seconds per WS, depending on how leet you pretend the average WAR is. Thats 1-2 WS per BP, all at 100% TP.

If your WS with a gimp 75 axe beats your L90 BPs, you should retire your SMN. Unlike me, that's all you claim is worthwhile from SMN.

[Korpg]

I can cast a pet too. I have a pet out meleeing next to me, which also has a 1 sec/5 minute ability to give both the pet and pet owner Haste. If the WAR gets to use berserk, the SMN gets to use hastega. I know, it's inconvenient that he'll have to abandon yet another attempt to kill melee SMN.

And the thread died when the WAR butthurt began. BTW, Korpg, LMAO at an "average WAR" WSing *every* 15 seconds. How do you plan to get 100% double attack with Byakko's Axe? Yeah, the math was that easy. 15-40seconds per WS, depending on how leet you pretend the average WAR is. Thats 1-2 WS per BP, all at 100% TP.

If your WS with a gimp 75 axe beats your L90 BPs, you should retire your SMN. Unlike me, that's all you claim is worthwhile from SMN.

It is still NOT natural. You have to use an ability to do so. I don't have to use Berserk because I can get to 800 attack without doing so, putting Berserk on would be too risky as is, since I get hate quick enough and the extra damage taken is not worth doing 50 more damage per swing on average.

This thread died when you tried to convince people they HAVE to melee as SMN. That is not what this thread is about, but your "my way or the highway" attitude is what killed this thread. As for WAR getting 100% TP every 15 seconds, it is very possible, you just don't see it because you are too set in your "my SMN is better than any DD" type of thinking that you only see one variable in the whole picture. Here is a hint, and you haven't used this word in several pages. I could count the posts between usage of the word. You can have 3 of them, they give you from 1 to 3 bonuses, and some bonuses include Auto-Reraise, Double Attack+10%, and Crit Hit Frequency +30%. Any WAR using 3 of these specific *blank* can get TP quicker than 15 seconds.

Plus, I'm saying a gimp WAR could beat your damage. My WAR can decimate your damage without even trying (no Berserk, no Food, no Tonics). If you can't pull out 3k damage on BPs, you should retire your SMN, and throw away that staff of yours, because that is the biggest waste of time anyone has ever put into a weapon.

How many people did you pay for the items to upgrade your staff btw?

[Malamasala]

This thread died when you tried to convince people they HAVE to melee as SMN.

The correct answer is that they SHOULD melee on SMN to maximize fun and potential. Not meleing on SMN is like not healing on RDM. Not exactly playing the job wrong, but you are ignoring a part of the job you could do.

[Korpg]

The correct answer is that they SHOULD melee on SMN to maximize fun and potential. Not meleing on SMN is like not healing on RDM. Not exactly playing the job wrong, but you are ignoring a part of the job you could do.

There is a difference between curing as RDM and meleeing as SMN.

RDM cures do some good to the party. Can turn a bad situation into a salvageable one if the RDM cures people. You know?

SMN meleeing feeds the mob TP. By having more TP being fed to the mob, they spam moves like crazy, specially at the last 25% of their health, which could turn a lowman fight into a wipe. If the SMN is in an 18 man alliance, feeding TP wouldn't be a big problem, but we are talking about NMs here. He wants SMNs to feed NMs TP so they can spam their moves more. You don't see a problem about that?

[blowfin]

The correct answer is that they SHOULD melee on SMN to maximize fun and potential. Not meleing on SMN is like not healing on RDM. Not exactly playing the job wrong, but you are ignoring a part of the job you could do.

Oh geez, you went and put `meleeing`and `RDM`in the same sentence together didn`t you?

[Malamasala]

He wants SMNs to feed NMs TP so they can spam their moves more. You don't see a problem about that?

Either you don't want TP, and you only have a MNK and WAR on or MNK and NIN or other combo of two jobs on it. Else you have whatever amount of jobs on it since you don't care. That is the only two scenarios. Either are all jobs useless, or a melee SMN is useful.

[Korpg]

Either you don't want TP, and you only have a MNK and WAR on or MNK and NIN or other combo of two jobs on it. Else you have whatever amount of jobs on it since you don't care. That is the only two scenarios. Either are all jobs useless, or a melee SMN is useful.

Thats not it. What he is suggesting is that a SMN in a party, meleeing.

Lets assume the following situation:

A 6 man party is fighting a NM. The party is as such:

NIN
WAR
BLM
SMN
WHM
BLU

Now, you have the NIN, WAR, BLU, and avatar fighting the NM. BLM nuking, WHM curing. SMN is there to do damage also, the WHM isn't a noob and can handle curing the NIN and WAR if needed. BLU does a good job curing himself. BLM doesn't need cures.

SMN desides to go in and melee. Now, you have the NIN, WAR, BLU, SMN, and Avatar feeding the mob TP. TP starts being spammed. This mob has a high damage AoE TP move that wipes shadows. NIN can't keep shadows up fast enough because they keep on getting wiped. WHM needs to cure the NIN and WAR more often. BLU runs out of mp, now the BLU needs to be cured also, all the while SMN only can keep cures on himself. WHM eventually runs out of mp, everyone dies. Where does the fault lie?

SMN needs to TP on the mob so he can get MP back, because he rather not use Refresh Atmas or doesn't have access to refresh and does not have any perp- gear, so keeping the avatar out costs him 13 mp per tick. SMN gears up to be a melee, meaning haste gear and accuracy gear, so thats why he can't keep MP up. Still, does the SMN really need to TP on the mob still?

[Neisan_Quetz]

What the hell is this crap and why did you people make me have to read it.

If it has a high damage AoE tp move you're not going to have 3 fucking people in range to eat it with only one dedicated healer and one backup healer who is going to need cures from said healer themselves because they're in melee range, your example is just plain stupid to even bring up.

You already showed you don't know how hate works if you don't think a Smn can't pull hate off an avatar from meleeing when due to hate caps and avatars having odd enmity decay (mainly carbuncle) simply using the assault/bloodpact commands enough times eventually generates so much VE the monster will continue to attack the summoner for some time even with the avatar attacking them.

The average DD is terrible and anyone with a brain could outdamage a byakko's war with a Pole of Trials spamming Full Swing. Your attack also isn't as high as you think it is without spamming YCB/RCB in a full party.

If a Smn had Hvelg/WoE staff and the enemy doesn't have a high damage Aoe TP move, because you wouldn't have extra DDs versus such a mob in the first place if you weren't stupid with only one healer, Using Myrkr to keep mp up is a legit tactic assuming the smn isn't being used to backup heal/status cure, karb already pointed out stuff is situational, damn.

[Dallas]

Korpg is just regurgitating 4 year old arguments. He isn't even disguising it anymore. Really, when's the last time anyone bothered with a 6-man party?

[Volkai]

Really, when's the last time anyone bothered with a 6-man party?

At this very moment on Phoenix server there is a 6-man party at level 59 fighting Lesser Colibri in Bhaflau Thickets.
Cleox WHM59/blm29
Bellack NIN59/war29
Hyala THF59/dnc27
Nakts WAR59/sam29
Rukio SAM59/war29
Traversia BLU59/dnc29

So the last time anyone bothered with a 6-man party is right now.

Ask a stupid question, get a stupidly specific answer.


What's this thread about?

[Duelle]

Korpg is just regurgitating 4 year old arguments. He isn't even disguising it anymore. Really, when's the last time anyone bothered with a 6-man party?Seeing that it is a good chunk of why job dynamics are the way they are in this game, I think it's a valid point.

It's like the people that tell me that 6-man balance doesn't matter for melee RDM anymore because everyone grinds exp in alliances, despite the fact that in a 6-man party you're still expected to be dedicated cure and refresh whore.

[Dallas]

That's not true with a 4-man group, 6-man group, or 18 man group. When WHM are mandatory what kind of idiots think they need a SMN healing?

I know it's hard to believe, but there are SMN who are actually competent at their job. Tell your SMNs to learn their job.


Ask a stupid question, get a stupidly specific answer.


What's this thread about?

SMN using an emp WS available at L85 being more competent at their job than a WAR using L75 gear they got 5 years ago. I honestly would not be surprised if Korpg started defending Byakko's Axe in a level sync party, so I will just tell you "good point!" and chuckle a little.

[Korpg]

I know it's hard to believe, but there are SMN who are actually competent at their job. Tell your SMNs to learn their job.

So, pray tell, what is your idea of a "competent" SMN? Is it one who does nothing but melee, or one who lets the avatar do all the work?


I honestly would not be surprised if Korpg started defending Byakko's Axe in a level sync party, so I will just tell you "good point!" and chuckle a little.

Of course, you wouldn't know an example if it was handed to you on a silver platter.

My Byakko's Axe statement was just that, an example. Please don't alter my words to fit your needs, like you have been doing the past 4-5 pages on this thread.

[Fyreus]

First off, I have never done anything in a group as SMN/WHM. I am not a healer, I will never be a healer as SMN, and trying to do so is just an insult to SMNs and WHMs everywhere. My SMN is there for two thing, and that is to pop out 5k+ (10k if AF3 set bonus procs) Blood Pacts every 45 seconds, without giving the mob TP in the process, and pulling links off of the tank and having Ramuh tank 3+ mobs at one time if needed.

What you are suggesting as a melee SMN would be to lose 2 of the most essential atmas a DD SMN uses to actually do the type of damage it needs to do. Probably 3, since I doubt you would use Minkin at all either. You also lose 3 of the most essential atmas a tanking SMN needs to have on to actually be able to hold 3+ mobs without dying quickly. Hell, just yesterday I tanked Funeral Apkallu and a MPK attempt from another group to steal our bird by pulling Athamas and having one player die behind us, which Garuda was able to tank both of them with ease. Can you do that while trying to pop out 600+ crit hits?

What you are doing is sending a back line job to the front where it does not belong. While your style of play is acceptable to you, do not refer "lazy SMN" into the equation, because some people might try what you are suggesting and end up wiping their party in the process. If enough people do that, others are going to label SMN as "loljobs" like DRG was way back then and PUPs are now. I don't want your ideas to make SMN into a "loljob."


You realize we all play smn differently? You also realize that you can be replaces by any other class easily in a group? His point is that he's using a different play style that se supports but the current lv75 -20enmity avatar hate mechanics are half sAsed and needs a patch such as every game goes through. Hitting a mob for 34dmg and wearing -9enmity YY body and having fenrir have to hit the same mob for 200ish damage (he pulled) to even get it's attention is a pain tbh.

[Korpg]

You realize we all play smn differently? You also realize that you can be replaces by any other class easily in a group? His point is that he's using a different play style that se supports but the current lv75 -20enmity avatar hate mechanics are half sAsed and needs a patch such as every game goes through. Hitting a mob for 34dmg and wearing -9enmity YY body and having fenrir have to hit the same mob for 200ish damage (he pulled) to even get it's attention is a pain tbh.

If only that was true. He admits gearing up to benefit himself and not the avatar. What he becomes is weakening his avatar while becoming a substandard DD, because he is convinced that "because Emp staff has almost the same damage on it's weapon, it must be for DDing!"

I don't care if he melee's in his parties, its when he calls everyone who doesn't substandard and lazy, that is what bothers me.

[Fyreus]

I gear up to help my avatar about every 47 secs or so tbh so i can kinda understand. What ever i do in the other 53 seconds of time? Put on conserve mp, switch around gear, swap to cure potency if i'm healing, and find a new place to hide if soloing. I kinda don't see the point of wearing anything but avatar attack/acc or perp if i am not ready to BP (that 3 sec pause is enough to macro stuff in) and i have time to idle so i would also melee for mp/damage since for whatever reason we can't /heal. There are too many things they didn't bother to fix so smn is still a lv75 job no matter how many traits we get so we find ways to improve or change our stagnant play style, right?

Notice how melee got more haste, more att, more acc and mages get more mp, more stats and ja assists? We get nothing that scales us up as either the summoner or pet but we get mp over time reduction after 200 crabs, 400 pugils, 999 kirins etc etc so if i can use a WS to restore max mp or do some damage then i would instead of idling in a group.

Calling everyone substandard is pretty petty imho also to be fair.

[Dallas]

So, pray tell, what is your idea of a "competent" SMN? Is it one who does nothing but melee, or one who lets the avatar do all the work?

Are you drunk?

How "competent" do you feel typing "nothing but melee" to someone who gets 1400MP every 2 minutes from a WS? I recommend you seek out the assistance of an average SMN. Even they can tell you what MP is used for.

[Korpg]

I gear up to help my avatar about every 47 secs or so tbh so i can kinda understand. What ever i do in the other 53 seconds of time? Put on conserve mp, switch around gear, swap to cure potency if i'm healing, and find a new place to hide if soloing. I kinda don't see the point of wearing anything but avatar attack/acc or perp if i am not ready to BP (that 3 sec pause is enough to macro stuff in) and i have time to idle so i would also melee for mp/damage since for whatever reason we can't /heal. There are too many things they didn't bother to fix so smn is still a lv75 job no matter how many traits we get so we find ways to improve or change our stagnant play style, right?

Notice how melee got more haste, more att, more acc and mages get more mp, more stats and ja assists? We get nothing that scales us up as either the summoner or pet but we get mp over time reduction after 200 crabs, 400 pugils, 999 kirins etc etc so if i can use a WS to restore max mp or do some damage then i would instead of idling in a group.

Calling everyone substandard is pretty petty imho also to be fair.

There is enough gear out there to have a free avatar even outside of Abyssea. Even without doing any TotM staffs. With /RDM on you can have 3 mp refresh, which is enough to last you for a convert (assuming you also Elemental Siphon). I have not rested as a SMN inside or outside abyssea since 80 cap. Except when I'm weakened, but even then, only once.

Summoners can do outstanding damage without the need of resting their MP anymore. Thanks to Convert, Refresh, 550~ Elemental Siphons, and free avatars without avatar favor, we have become a top tier DD in the game. Add on atmas, and we are unstoppable.

Melee, we can add on Minkin/Raized Ruins/Apoc atmas and deal out instant damage while maintaining our TP (for WW/SW).
Magical, we can add on Minkin/Ultimate/Beyond (or any other +elemental damage) and become great "nukers" although our limitation of 45 seconds still sucks.
Solo, we can add on Ducal Guard ONLY to have 87.5% PDT reduction (BSTs can't even get that high with one atma) at 100% of our pet's life. Include Mounted Champion and there are just a few NMs out there we can't solo. Minkin for keeping MP up without having the need to convert.

And that is another thing.


Are you drunk?

How "competent" do you feel typing "nothing but melee" to someone who gets 1400MP every 2 minutes from a WS? I recommend you seek out the assistance of an average SMN. Even they can tell you what MP is used for.

If you even bothered to gear right you wouldn't need 1400 MP every 2 minutes. Having avatars out that costs you 13 mp per tick with Blood Pacts that cost you 176 (and 96 since you would need the cures badly from AoEs) every 45 seconds would make you have to have that 1400 mp every 2 minutes. What exactally do you give in return for your "uber melee" damage? Asking the WHM to waste 150 (135 if they /SCH) MP to raise you and keep from curing the tank? A higher chance of wiping the party you are in? Is it really that worth it? I rather HELP with the raising than NEED the raise myself.

[Malamasala]

Korpg, you do realize you are arguing against someone who is actually doing it successfully, right? I'm pretty sure that if Dallas was in fact dying every 2 minutes and getting raises, he'd not suggest that way of playing.

Just like the issue with bumblebees not being able to fly, you have to accept it when someone actually pulls it through.

I was recently having fun meleeing in abyssea after the stat cap raises. Was fun hitting IT monsters for 350 crits. I'm sure real melee jobs hit even harder, but 350 damage is still decent for a SMN.

[Korpg]

Korpg, you do realize you are arguing against someone who is actually doing it successfully, right? I'm pretty sure that if Dallas was in fact dying every 2 minutes and getting raises, he'd not suggest that way of playing.

Just like the issue with bumblebees not being able to fly, you have to accept it when someone actually pulls it through.

I was recently having fun meleeing in abyssea after the stat cap raises. Was fun hitting IT monsters for 350 crits. I'm sure real melee jobs hit even harder, but 350 damage is still decent for a SMN.

If that was true that he wasn't dying like he states in this thread (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/3866-Hverlgelmir-mighty-stick-of-death-trap) then he is lying in that thread. If he states that he doesn't die because of the "uber damage" as stated at the first part of this thread, then he is lying in this thread.

Either way, there are too many inconstancies in both threads that would support his argument.

[Dallas]

I've already posted the next step solution, just not for you. I no longer have to spend a few seconds the Korpg "do nothing" route. Took me 5 days to work around breaking SMN.

Mala, if you break the job, I'll show you the next step.

Korpg, all that avatar gear is now MACRO gear. I know, it's hard for you to imagine a macro that could put on avatar attack gear and use a BP all at once, then another macro that could put all that useless perp gear away a couple seconds later. Macros are for advanced players, don't worry about it.

[Korpg]

I've already posted the next step solution, just not for you. I no longer have to spend a few seconds the Korpg "do nothing" route. Took me 5 days to work around breaking SMN.

Mala, if you break the job, I'll show you the next step.

Korpg, all that avatar gear is now MACRO gear. I know, it's hard for you to imagine a macro that could put on avatar attack gear and use a BP all at once, then another macro that could put all that useless perp gear away a couple seconds later. Macros are for advanced players, don't worry about it.

I'm surprised you know anything about macros. I mean, you're demeanor towards others who disagree with you signifies a "my way or highway" attitude that new players generally have. I know, I used to have one. Then I saw somebody do something that was better than me and I opened my eyes to the possibility for improvement, unlike you have shown.

Why yes, I have mentioned macros. How else am I going to get all this -perp gear and -BP gear into one set? Thought even somebody with your observation for detail would notice that.

But you aren't breaking a job. At least, not with the intention of actually doing something good. I fail to understand how you can justify expending so much mp like that, not limited to yours of course. You will be needing cures. If you cast cure on yourself, that is stopping you from getting the TP you so despairingly need. So you can't cast cure on yourself, you require others to do it for you. Is your increased damage output justify the increased need for curing not only yourself, but other members of your party, since by hitting the mob, you increased that mob's TP and ability to use a TP move, which on most mobs, are generally AoE damage TP moves? You can't buff yourself, I don't think that Aerial Armor would absorb any of that move at all, since Blink is not the same as Utsusemi. Plus, you need to also cure your avatar, otherwise the time you spend having to recast your avatar is also time wasted from getting TP from the mob with your staff.

I'm sorry, but I don't see any justification in a SMN melee. Avatar melee doesn't matter, because the only drawback in losing an avatar is 5 seconds needed to recast that same avatar. Not keeping the WHM from curing you, or raising another person, or anything serious.

My "do nothing" route is the one that does just as much damage as an avatar/SMN combo, if not more thanks to Set bonus from Emp+2 armor (I doubt you even gotten any of those, they benefit the avatar, not the player, so to you it would seem as a waste, as stated in the above quote).

I have shown everyone here why not meleeing as a SMN is beneficent to a party. I have yet to see your argument into why a SMN should melee, or at least a reasonable argument. Only thing I have seen from you is your whole "my way or highway" attitude.

[Neisan_Quetz]

What the hell is this crap, did I just not explain it in my last damn post. Stop the idiocy, get better mages if you keep dying unless the monster has high damage AoE, not that difficult. I die all the time in PUG because I'm the only one there actually doing damage and never getting cured despite tanking the damn mob.

I also rarely go to PUG anymore.

[Panthera]

Snarl for summoner as an inherent part of the job would be a good idea.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Snarl for summoner as an inherent part of the job would be a good idea.I agree.



Superfluous text.

[Fyreus]

There is enough gear out there to have a free avatar even outside of Abyssea. Even without doing any TotM staffs. With /RDM on you can have 3 mp refresh, which is enough to last you for a convert (assuming you also Elemental Siphon). I have not rested as a SMN inside or outside abyssea since 80 cap. Except when I'm weakened, but even then, only once.

Summoners can do outstanding damage without the need of resting their MP anymore. Thanks to Convert, Refresh, 550~ Elemental Siphons, and free avatars without avatar favor, we have become a top tier DD in the game. Add on atmas, and we are unstoppable.

Melee, we can add on Minkin/Raized Ruins/Apoc atmas and deal out instant damage while maintaining our TP (for WW/SW).
Magical, we can add on Minkin/Ultimate/Beyond (or any other +elemental damage) and become great "nukers" although our limitation of 45 seconds still sucks.
Solo, we can add on Ducal Guard ONLY to have 87.5% PDT reduction (BSTs can't even get that high with one atma) at 100% of our pet's life. Include Mounted Champion and there are just a few NMs out there we can't solo. Minkin for keeping MP up without having the need to convert.

Abyssea? I don't recall saying much about it on these forums but i hardly go... i go about once every 3 days since i don't really like the content. From my point of view (and the direction the game is headed.. you can pretty much call abyssea dynamis since its 100% about gearing up) emp. weapons allows a smn to do some pretty fly stuff so its hard to knock even for a class with super stagnant play.

[Dallas]

I'm surprised you know anything about macros.

Yes, and you are surprised that a SMN with unlimited MP doesn't need -perp gear on full time. Get used to it or stop talking to top-end SMN.

[Malamasala]

You will be needing cures. If you cast cure on yourself, that is stopping you from getting the TP you so despairingly need. So you can't cast cure on yourself, you require others to do it for you. Is your increased damage output justify the increased need for curing not only yourself, but other members of your party, since by hitting the mob, you increased that mob's TP and ability to use a TP move, which on most mobs, are generally AoE damage TP moves?

Every melee job needs cures. Since Summoner is a melee job, that is not a problem, just a fact. (And it is as much a melee as a BLU. Both having MP.)

It is all pretty simple really.
A) The mob uses single target attacks. SMN will only need cures when they pull hate by doing more damage than all other melee jobs. (Good luck)
B) The mob uses AOE attacks. All melee jobs will need curaga, and SMN will benefit from it as well. Slight danger if you actually take a load more damage than the melee so you don't get fully cured when they do.

I'd also like to point out that TP feeding is still a moot discussion point. It is like sitting here discussing dual wielding axes on WAR. It's over. Past tense. Not valid. If TP feeding was an issue, DRGs for example would not be allowed to have wyverns summoned. In fact if it was an issue, BP + release would be the ONLY damage methods since it is the only TP free damage method. As soon as you let a single person TP on it, you have already worsened the situation by far more than adding a SMN melee ever will. (Unless said SMN is the only melee, in which case I hope they can tank)


Mala, if you break the job, I'll show you the next step.

I'm pretty sure you are a taru. What works for you with for example %MP back from Myrkr might not work as well for me on Mithra.

[Korpg]

Every melee job needs cures. Since Summoner is a melee job, that is not a problem, just a fact. (And it is as much a melee as a BLU. Both having MP.)

It is all pretty simple really.
A) The mob uses single target attacks. SMN will only need cures when they pull hate by doing more damage than all other melee jobs. (Good luck)
B) The mob uses AOE attacks. All melee jobs will need curaga, and SMN will benefit from it as well. Slight danger if you actually take a load more damage than the melee so you don't get fully cured when they do.

I'd also like to point out that TP feeding is still a moot discussion point. It is like sitting here discussing dual wielding axes on WAR. It's over. Past tense. Not valid. If TP feeding was an issue, DRGs for example would not be allowed to have wyverns summoned. In fact if it was an issue, BP + release would be the ONLY damage methods since it is the only TP free damage method. As soon as you let a single person TP on it, you have already worsened the situation by far more than adding a SMN melee ever will. (Unless said SMN is the only melee, in which case I hope they can tank)


Yes, every melee job needs cures. But SMN is not a melee job. Our damage doesn't come from whacking a mob with a staff. It comes from our avatar, which is not only replenishable, but can deliver outstanding damage on its own. The avatar's TP feed to the mob is completely justifiable because of the amount of damage the avatar gives, plus the Blood Pact moves that can use the TP the avatar gains from meleeing. What Dallas proposes is that he gains TP from the mob just to keep his avatar out. The cost to keep his avatar out requires him to melee and do a WS that does 0 damage to the mob. Is his melee justifying enough for the TP feed he gives to the mob? He isn't doing any additional damage with his WSs, and his melee hits are slightly less than his avatar, if he hits at all. Plus, given the need for more cures, that is stopping the WHM from curing other melees that might need them. If he melees a mob that does a lot of AoE moves, thats just one more person in the area that needs the cures. He would either have to stop meleeing to cure himself (or his party if he is /WHM, but he already admits that he needs to be /SAM to do any damage output that the proposed) which would lower his DoT since he would have to not attack.

As for the WAR dualwielding and DRG examples, look at the damage done to the mob by dualwielding, and wyvern's DoT. Yeah, not that great for the wyvern, but still a lot more than damage than a SMN melee. Plus, the wyvern can "WS" every time the DRG WSs. So thats additional spike damage to include. Plus, lets not forget that wyverns already come with Subtle Blow as a job trait, so they won't feed as much TP as a melee that doesn't have any access to Subtle Blow, like WARs or DRKs.

In situations that SMNs would have to melee, as in Dallas's case, he would have to be in a party. No way in the world could he survive meleeing any NMs worth fighting, even half the NMs out there not worth fighting. His MP wouldn't survive long enough.

[Korpg]

Yes, and you are surprised that a SMN with unlimited MP doesn't need -perp gear on full time. Get used to it or stop talking to top-end SMN.

Your method of "unlimited MP" is only one method.

Maybe if you look hard enough, you will find another method of "unlimited MP" that has a lot less risk and a lot more damage output than the one you propose others to do. Your "my way or highway" attitude is annoying, and I wish you would stop referring yourself as a "top-end" SMN. Because your limited style of thinking strongly suggests otherwise.

[Neisan_Quetz]

You're both being stubborn. Summoner simply lacks in DD gear/traits/abilities, otherwise it isn't that much worse than the other mages (not counting Blu) at meleeing aside from lacking a decent weaponskill. As far as this game is concerned every job can melee, they simply usually have either limitations in mp/weaponskill options or roles holding them back - but without a Subjob summoner can do nothing between bloodpacts. At all. Summoner itself is broken, if meleeing helps them deal more damage and kill the mob faster without being a detriment to a party there is no reason a summoner shouldn't melee. If you think a job is completely fine having to rely on specific subjobs to play a role in a party well I don't know what to say.

[Ezikiel]

so was the bst -100% PDT nerfed or what?

[Malamasala]

You're both being stubborn. Summoner simply lacks in DD gear/traits/abilities, otherwise it isn't that much worse than the other mages (not counting Blu) at meleeing aside from lacking a decent weaponskill.

I've been saying that for years, but as usual SE ignores me. It is funny that they'd probably have 5000 more paying customers if they had listened to me. That is not that many, but the rough estimate of amount of SMNs that quit due to the job never getting fixed.

I used to talk to an old SMN friend over MSN. Every update something came for SMN it was the same thing. "Too little, too late".

The job is a train wreck, and the only thing SE does is add more rail.

[blowfin]

so was the bst -100% PDT nerfed or what?

Yah 87.5%%%%%%

[Korpg]

SMN isn't that bad. You just got to take the limitations and work around them.

Then you will find that they can be at about the same as most other pet jobs. PUP included. Only exception is that PUP can DD, and DD well. DRG too, but they are just as much geared for DD as PUP is.

Think of it this way, you got 3 DD types of pet jobs, and SMN is considered the "nuker" of pet jobs. All avatars are considered BLMs. They deal magical damage. The TP they use are for magical blood pacts.

What's wrong with treating SMN as the mage it is?

[Fyreus]

My summoner has all sorts of neat trick :D Since BP are JA i really have: magic haste, 34+enspell damage, double attack, attack up, and stats up. Smn gets some nice stuff as assistance but we're so sub dependent that it becomes an annoying thing to deal with.

[Malamasala]

What's wrong with treating SMN as the mage it is?

The only part about SMN that says mage is the MP. That means PLD is a mage, DRK is a mage, BLU is a mage, even though many would consider them as front line jobs.

Besides our issue is hardly about if the job is called a mage or not. It's that we get nothing to fill in between our ridiculous timers.

- Spirits.... take as long as the recast to even start casting a random spell... useless.
- Melee... no helping traits or abilities. Do have WSes at least.
- Watch... rather boring.
- Equip some magey sub and cast cures... Most common option, but hardly something that makes you feel like a Summoner and not a half level subjob.

[Volkai]

The only part about SMN that says mage is the MP.That's not accurate.
Mage-like attributes that Summoner possesses:
1) armor selection (Generally included on what could be considered 'mage only' gear. For example, Skulker's Cape or Royal Redingote -- WHM/BLM/RDM/BRD/SMN/SCH.)
2) limited weaponry choices (most staves used by Summoners are Staff subtype instead of Pole subtype. This is like the Wand subtype instead of the Hammer subtype, for Clubs.)
3) low HP
4) high MP (note that PLD and DRK have significantly less MP than WHM/BLM/RDM/SMN/BLU)
5) total dependency on spells to perform job's primary role (consider a silenced PLD or DRK without echo drops or PT SIlenas but otherwise unimpaired. Now consider a silenced SMN without echo drops or PT SIlena.)


That means PLD is a mage, DRK is a mage, BLU is a mage, even though many would consider them as front line jobs.
Nevermind that I just dismissed the false premise, these still don't work. PLD and DRK are jobs that use MP, but are not mages. BLU IS a mage (it's in the Job's name!), but it's a front line mage job.

[Neisan_Quetz]

A silenced summoner can still use bloodpacts. It's actually less of a mage in that aspect since the job is most hurt by Amnesia, not silence.

[Volkai]

A silenced summoner can still use bloodpacts. It's actually less of a mage in that aspect since the job is most hurt by Amnesia, not silence.

Huh. I had not considered that particular point.

Still, if you can't summon something in the first place, you can't use your bloodpacts, so....

[Korpg]

The only part about SMN that says mage is the MP.

I would have to disagree with you.

Most of the damage that a SMN does comes from the avatar. The avatar is summoned by casting a spell to summon them.

Along with what Volkai has said also, I think that the above point is what makes a Summoner a magic pet job. I mean, who else has access to elemental type pets?

[Dallas]

Huh. I had not considered that particular point.

Still, if you can't summon something in the first place, you can't use your bloodpacts, so....

Psst, I was hoping for this from Korpg... Myrkr removes status effects from self. For everyone else, there are Echo Drops and the ability to not unsummon in the first place.

Not even bad BLM are once-every-45-seconds BLM. Something for the posers to think about. If you really think you are a BLM pet job, find a BLM that sucks as much as you.

[Korpg]

Psst, I was hoping for this from Korpg... Myrkr removes status effects from self. For everyone else, there are Echo Drops and the ability to not unsummon in the first place.

Not even bad BLM are once-every-45-seconds BLM. Something for the posers to think about. If you really think you are a BLM pet job, find a BLM that sucks as much as you.

Then why not invite a BLM instead of a SMN for the job?

Why are you in a party? I mean, since any other DD can do physical damage faster and more consistent than you. And any BLM (or SCH) can do more magical damage faster and more consistent than you.

Why are you in the party? Is it so you can spam a 0 damage WS just to keep yourself continuing to do damage with your avatar?

[Neisan_Quetz]

Then why not invite a BLM instead of a SMN for the job?

Why are you in a party? I mean, since any other DD can do physical damage faster and more consistent than you. And any BLM (or SCH) can do more magical damage faster and more consistent than you.

Why are you in the party? Is it so you can spam a 0 damage WS just to keep yourself continuing to do damage with your avatar?

Now you're getting it.

[Soundwave]

I really would like to see Camate reply to this thread.

Anywho....carry on, I enjoy this thread.:p

[Korpg]

Now you're getting it.

I already got it.

Only time I go to Abyssea as SMN really is to solo NMs. If I wanted to do something with other people, I would go as something else. Generally, that is. Sometimes my group requires me to go as SMN, but thats ok, because generally my job is spelled out (get pets off of tank, carby pull from a bunch of aggro mobs, etc).

The very few times I am required to go as SMN for something, its generally for one thing. Provide support to the party based on situations that is acceptable to help everyone, not to be a burden to anyone. Take care of yourself type of thing.

It's Dallas who doesn't get it. He has to impose himself to others because he doesn't know the job he is playing, and how it is structured. He thinks that because SMN has a "decent" staff skill, they "have" to melee and anyone who doesn't melee is "unfit to be a SMN." Next thing, he will tell RNGs that they "have" to melee with axes because they have better axe skill than SMNs have Staff skill, and by not being right next to the mob, and doing both ranged attack and melee attack, they are gimping themselves on damage. COR too, for the same reason.

Dallas has no idea what SMN is. Yet he is claiming to be a "top" tier SMN.

[Neisan_Quetz]

They probably are better off meleeing and using Rampage/Evis because pulling the mob away from the rest of the DD can be considered a detriment to all the other DD (bar having the Emp WS).

Glad you got that being a subpar DD isn't useful ergo Smn isn't useful. As long as it doesn't have high damage AoE and they are not being a detriment to the party, there is nothing wrong with a Summoner meleeing. You're both being stubborn.

[Korpg]

I never said that SMN isn't useful. Its just that SMNs have their own brand of usefulness.

They have specific roles, and Melee is not one of them.

[Neisan_Quetz]

And saying their role is never to melee is subjective. As I already pointed out without a subjob in between bloodpacts the only thing a summoner actually could do in a pt besides stand around and look pretty is melee. I'm not saying it is the only way to play Smn but being 100% backline isn't necessarily the only way to play the job either.

[Volkai]

The role of Summoner is not "never to melee," but it's safe to say the meleeing is at best incidental to the role a Summoner plays in a group.

If you are a Summoner, and you choose to melee, you had best be getting done whatever it is you're supposed to be doing and giving that priority. If you can do that and also melee (and contribute to the group by doing so) then there's no reason not to melee.

[Dallas]

Then why not invite a BLM instead of a SMN for the job?

You have no idea what's going on, do you? I play a pet job as a pet job. I've been doing it longer than BST have been welcome in parties. I've been doing it since before PUP existed. Everyone I know also knows me. They know what the emp staff means in my hands. I am never compared to a BLM.

I have been enjoying Myrkr for a while now. I must say, it is obvious that this weapon was designed to remove every flaw of Spirit Taker. It doesn't miss. You can't be out of range. TP past 100% isn't wasted. Silencega is no longer an issue. There is a good reason Spirit Taker became the model WS.

[Korpg]

You have no idea what's going on, do you? I play a pet job as a pet job. I've been doing it longer than BST have been welcome in parties. I've been doing it since before PUP existed. Everyone I know also knows me. They know what the emp staff means in my hands. I am never compared to a BLM.

I have been enjoying Myrkr for a while now. I must say, it is obvious that this weapon was designed to remove every flaw of Spirit Taker. It doesn't miss. You can't be out of range. TP past 100% isn't wasted. Silencega is no longer an issue. There is a good reason Spirit Taker became the model WS.

Then lets ask the obvious question.

Is SMN the only job you have?

[Dallas]

Of course I have other jobs, so what's your next plan of attack?

[Korpg]

Next question then.

In your linkshell, are you a leader/officer, or just a member?

If you are a leader/an officer, do you lead runs?

[Dallas]

Looking for that excuse why someone would want me as SMN?

[Xellith]

Give us a damn enhanced pup AI >.>

[Korpg]

Looking for that excuse why someone would want me as SMN?

Exactly.

But answer that question anyway, it was a dual-purpose question.

Are you a leader in a linkshell?

[Dallas]

"I'm kind of a big deal, people know me." - Ron Burgundy

Seriously... I've been in 10+ LS over the years, led some and some not. It's worthless information to you, as I have exposed so many people to ST and DG that I no longer explain myself to anyone. They request "tank" or "DD," and I do the rest.

[Korpg]

They request "tank" or "DD," and I do the rest.

Hopefully you don't assume SMN for either of those jobs.

But I'm curious. If you have multiple jobs, as you say you do, why Staff Emp weapon? Why not something useful, like GK or GA? Or Sword? Or Scythe? Or Katana?

Why staff?

[Ketaru]

Hopefully you don't assume SMN for either of those jobs.

But I'm curious. If you have multiple jobs, as you say you do, why Staff Emp weapon? Why not something useful, like GK or GA? Or Sword? Or Scythe? Or Katana?

Why staff?

I agree with the majority of everything Korpg is saying...

...Except I must say something now because I wonder what the motive is behind asking why he would pick Staff over other weapons.

We have a joke about a BST I know. The joke is that he joined his HNM LS as a WAR and left it as a BST (you know, stuff like getting Adaman Hauberk for his BST). We all know people like this. People who do their part, pay dues, and use their credit to build their character in a way that obviously does not benefit the group as much as it could. We know RDMs who could be working on a Kannagi for their NIN, but insist on getting Almace instead, even though they know they will never get to use it on group events. Or WHMs that are backline healers when it counts, yet keep an awesome melee set around just because. We even know DNCs who don't ever get to play DNC.

Now, either Dallas is a slick guy and really pulled a fast one on people to get him loot for his staff. Or he must've really went out of his way to make it worthwhile for everybody else for them to put the effort in to get him a melee SMN staff. If it's the latter, he really owes no explanation. He wanted it and he worked for it and that's that.

[Dallas]

Why staff?

Because SMN would look pretty stupid with any other weapon in their Moghouse.

[Korpg]

Because SMN would look pretty stupid with any other weapon in their Moghouse.

Wait, are you saying that you use SMN for more events than you do for any other job?

[Dallas]

Are you really pretending that I just said that for the first time?

[Korpg]

No, I was giving you a chance to save face.

I mean, a SMN is more useful than a BLM, or a WAR, or a NIN, or a WHM in Abyssea. Right?

[Dallas]

When the choice is between picking me playing SMN or you playing SMN, I can see why you keep Byakkos Axe handy. You don't need a competent WAR in Abyssea, just a body. We've already established that you needed me to play SMN at all. I think you should give up with this fantasy you have that I will ever answer to you.

[Korpg]

When the choice is between picking me playing SMN or you playing SMN, I can see why you keep Byakkos Axe handy. You don't need a competent WAR in Abyssea, just a body. We've already established that you needed me to play SMN at all. I think you should give up with this fantasy you have that I will ever answer to you.

A) Byakko's Axe was an example. Why do you think that axe is acceptable, even with augments on it now?

B) I'm wondering what your leader's take on your SMN is. Either your other jobs are so gimp that you would do better damage on SMN than any other useful job, because of your lack of even trying to gear your other jobs, or that you are the leader and screw what everyone in your shell says.

C) You obviously have 18 man alliances to kill T2 NMs in Abyssea. If you think that a competent WAR is just a body, that is obviously how your shell runs. Who cares that a 4 man party can not only kill NMs faster than you, but also are able to get all procs and can gear up faster than anyone in your shell can.

D) How did we establish that I personally need you to play SMN? Your style of play is very questionable, and most likely causes more wipes than my style of play for SMN. Your notion of laziness with SMNs shows that you care not about anyone's opinion and any discussion in why your method of play is not only selfish, but intentionally damaging to the party/alliance also shows your limited thinking ability and ability to handle situations where quick decisions are needed. I hope that you aren't in a position to determine events in your shell, because I don't think you would make a good leader at all.

[Neisan_Quetz]

FFS, how many times do you have to be told, if it isn't a detriment to the party, do whatevertf you want because no one is really going to care as long as more important stuff is taken care of.

[Dallas]

I've met his kind before. He attacks from 100 angles hoping one of them will stick. Beat any one of them down and he tries 3 more.

He says he can solo NMs, but I need 18 people to kill my NMs. He also thinks any other job would be 4x as effective as SMN. Mathematically, he is saying he is 72x as good a SMN as the person who discovered his playstyle.

[blowfin]

How did we establish that I personally need you to play SMN? Your style of play is very questionable, and most likely causes more wipes than my style of play for SMN. Your notion of laziness with SMNs shows that you care not about anyone's opinion and any discussion in why your method of play is not only selfish, but intentionally damaging to the party/alliance also shows your limited thinking ability and ability to handle situations where quick decisions are needed. I hope that you aren't in a position to determine events in your shell, because I don't think you would make a good leader at all.

Conversely, the constant attacks on him have proven to me quite conclusively that you're someone I'd never want to group with, let alone have as a leader.