Looking at Forum Moderation Standards

[Kensagaku]

I know there have been threads like this previously, and I know that most of them got shut down pretty quickly. But at the same time, this is an important issue, and while I'm not one to whine and complain about every little bad thing I come across, enough is enough.

Now I have noticed an alarming phenomenon in a number of threads; the OP of the thread, by smashing the Report Button on everything that s/he dislikes, causes posts to get deleted quickly. This isn't a universal problem; after all, there is a reason that we have a report button, to report the posts that violate forum guidelines and cause trouble that is detrimental to the forums. These sorts of posts? I can see them getting deleted, it's all fair and well.

But that's not the problem. The problem is that this applies to any and all posts that (generally) the OP of a thread does not like. S/He hits report a few dozen times, and boom, the post with any disagreements is gone, and s/he can smile and be on his/her way with his/her own side of the argument intact, all opposition deleted away.

Moderators, this is a cry to you to actually... y'know, moderate. I'm not sure what the problem is here, but I'm sensing a very impersonal touch that is really starting to hurt the quality of these forums more and more by the day. Let me give you an example:

http://i51.tinypic.com/2cwwf9g.png

Now, let us look at the posts that were deleted. The one that's essentially "get out" is understandably deleted. That was an unfortunately rude and (although true) improper way of handling this situation. The one beneath it was that Starcade had a poor attitude, which was stating an obvious fact that most could see and did not need to be deleted.

However, look at Starcade's still intact post. It says, quite bluntly (and I apologize for my choice of wording, but I'm trying to remain accurate in my quoting), to "go screw yourself." This is an obviously rude and derogatory remark that only serves to hurt the forums, not help encourage people to post and enjoy their time here. I have reported it as is part of my responsibility as one of the members of the forum. Yet no action was taken (scratch that, now the whole thread has been nuked, I guess that's just what happens after X number of reports).

But you can see my point, mods. Are you really there, observing threads as needed, following up on those reported posts and actually looking at them before you delete them? Are you looking to see the context of the posts around it, to see what is going on? If so, why would you leave a clearly offensive post that trumps either of the ones surrounding it and delete the other two? It makes no sense.

So I ask you, mods: Can you give us some sort of sign you're even paying attention?

[Kindra]

I agree. I don't think that an attack right off the bat should be an ok thing.

[Randwolf]

Well, I understand the mods may be too busy to examine every report AND all the posts around it.

However, what will probably begin is that everyone will begin reporting everyone else's posts.

Looks like Starcade's thread got the nuke treatment anyway.

[GlobalVariable]

There has been a serious lack of consistency on the mods part from the beginning. Harmless posts deleted and atrocious ones and absurd accusations of other players get left up. And there is no method go over the forums staffs head when the post defending yourself from some nut deleted.

[Starcade]

Well, I understand the mods may be too busy to examine every report AND all the posts around it.

However, what will probably begin is that everyone will begin reporting everyone else's posts.

The only reason I don't is because of the fact that I want people to see their absurdity.

[Randwolf]

You have but one option then.

Ban me from both the forums and the game itself.

We have the vast majority of US players who, bluntly, are cheaters and completely have no regard for anyone but their own advancement.

This forum has turned into little more than the BluGartr cheater-fest I feared it would.

I told him to do it because that's exactly how I felt about him. And I think Square-Enix, in enforcing having to play with some of these "people" to feasibly advance in the game, is part and parcel of the problem.

There is NOTHING for me to look forward to in this update. Basically, Square-Enix is trying to enforce playing with a bunch of people who have no business in this game.
I'm surprised that hasn't happened yet.

[Starcade]

I'm surprised that hasn't happened yet.

Bluntly, so am I!!!

I think, frankly, the only reason I'm not thrown off of FFXI yet is because they know what that would mean (that they side with the cheaters and need them more than they need the legitimate players -- translation: there are not enough legitimate players to support FFXI, and, therefore, Square-Enix' MMO division).

It'd be like VanaFest 2010: Where they basically had to admit the only reason they had 32 servers was the proliferation of RMT across the game.

[Starcade]

Greatguardian: As long as I am part of this game, though, this conflict will continue. If it doesn't continue here, it will continue in-game. The facts are that the game has allowed and encouraged a course of conduct completely contrary to Square-Enix' rules and intent. And the enjoyment of the game by the majority of the English-speaking/US players relies on that contradiction.

[Pharaun]

Ken I think you really hit the nail on the head with your OP. Personally I think one of the biggest problems is that it seems like they are relying on the GM staff to moderate the forums, which is something that they probably have had little experience and training in. It would have been better if SE had hired a group of people specifically to moderate so that their attention wasn't divided between answering in game GM calls and responding to all the report post spam and could be properly trained on what to do.

I'd like to hope that as time passes the GMs will learn what it takes to properly moderate a forum, but unless there are one or two of them specifically assigned to the forums only then I doubt that will happen. Of course all of these problems would just go away if SE would do the smart thing and hire Isladar to be a professional moderator for the forums.

[Kensagaku]

Why must stuff always happen when I go to nap? Alright, to address a few things here.

First off, I'm sorry about removing the tags, but I want to keep this thread fairly serious. This was not an attempt at a troll thread nor was it meant to stir up controversy. Starcade, I apologize for directly pointing you out, but it was a recent and proper example. Blocking out your name wouldn't have done anything because of your... unique... personality. So if you felt dragged into this, my apologies. Truely.

Now that the mini-disclaimer-thingamajig is over with, let's get to the meat of this argument. I feel that this is a common issue, and a very important one to this forum's future. We need a moderation staff who can take the time and examine all aspects of the board. I know our team is strained already since most of the money is going towards the development of FFXIV, but you can't spare a little to get a team to actually look over these forums with a fair hand? Too many times we've found ourselves with deleted posts and nuked threads all because one idiot (though said idiot varies and/or is more than one person at times) decided that they were unhappy with someone else's ideas and started spamming the report button.

Without someone to actually look at the content, to fully examine the report and give us honest feedback as to why a post should get deleted. Before, we were getting posts edited at least by the community reps, and I thought that was a sincerely direct and personal approach that really helped in this forum. They looked and read posts and took out the unnecessary or things that were against the forum guidelines. What happened to this? When did we descend back to the point where "report = post/thread nuke" became the new equation? It doesn't do the forum any good, and it's more likely to drive away posters and restrict the information that is being passed along because one idiot doesn't like an informative thread and poof, there goes the thread.

How much good information has to be lost before you guys realize that you need some sort of personal touch, whether your own or a moderating crew's? How many blatantly rude posts go ignored while literally right above and below them you guys delete less offensive comments? We need to see this change, because otherwise, we're just hurting our ability to communicate with our community, which was the point of this forum in the first place.

So please, read this out and hopefully see what I'm getting at.

[Mrbeansman]

It would be nice if the GMs gave us actual human responses and not a bunch of stuff that reads like it was run through a protocol machine.

[noodles355]

They prolly have set replies. Like an IT help desk.

Have you tried turning it off and on again?
Is it plugged in at the wall?
Is the screen turned on?

[Kensagaku]

They prolly have set replies. Like an IT help desk.

Have you tried turning it off and on again?
Is it plugged in at the wall?
Is the screen turned on?

I'm aware this is the case, which is why I'm making this thread in an unlikely-to-be-met hope that one of the community reps or some other actual human behind the screen could take a look. I'm aware chances are slim and this is likely to be buried, but personally I'm fed up of people getting away with spamming their own personal delete-over-time report button and yet having their harassing posts intact.

[Mrbeansman]

They prolly have set replies. Like an IT help desk.

Have you tried turning it off and on again?
Is it plugged in at the wall?
Is the screen turned on?

Which is why these forums are doomed to fail. If mods can't talk like human beings then we as a community are doomed to make no progress. Just look at the last thread that tried to resolve these issues the thread was locked by a gm and the gm instead of addressing the issue gave a very vague response as to what justifies deleting a post. Just once I would like to see GMs tell a group of people to knock it off without trying to sound like Jesus.

[Zyeriis]

They don't take context into consideration when banning people. Just the other day I was banned temporarily for calling some one a troll who was purposefully following my posts around and trying to piss me off. Want some one banned? Have a few people spam the report button, they will ban that person regardless of context.

[Kensagaku]

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]

o_O I hope this isn't directed at me. This is a truly sincere thread, regardless of who replies and what their intents/goals are.

Thing is, I'm pretty confident that most of the people here are actually sincere. This is a serious issue on the forums, and because users can simply spam the report button and do away with all of their problems, it limits the amount of communication that we can have. Simply put, it turns things into a tyranny, a dictatorship, not a community like the forum's original intent was. I for one feel that this forum is doomed to crash and burn because the immature report-spammers are going to drive away everyone who isn't willing to walk on eggshells around them. This is not right.

So please understand that this is a sincere thread, and if you're not going to contributed to it, please just do the polite thing and leave it be. I really want to try and get this point across.

[BorkBorkBork]

The player base as a whole would take these forums a lot more seriously if you could actually have a real discussion without getting banned. Part of having a real debate is conflict and that includes telling people flat out that they are wrong. The way these forums are moderated you can basically say anything you want and if anyone disagrees you can report them until their posts get deleted.

And as far as people acting innocent when they've trolled someone....SE is seeing the results of how they moderate and the users of this forum are irritated and playing around with them. I'm not saying that there doesn't need to be rules but this practice of protecting little Johnnys eyes from any kind of criticism is resulting in what is happening here.

Bottom line if you post something wrong, you'll probably get made fun of a little bit but at the same time people will most likely tell you why your wrong. So grow some thicker skin and use it as a source of knowledge instead of a reason to mash the report button.

[Kindra]

While I agree with you BorkBorkBork, there is still a better way to put things down then insults. WHen we result to words that can hurt someones feelings it can go very wrong very fast. To tell someone they are wrong all you really need to do is point out where they are wrong and why. Calling them names and being aggressive towards them won't really help the situation. It's a cause and effect reaction.

Now there are those that are just angry right off the bat. They start off aggressive then get even more mad when you point out where and why they were wrong. Either way its still a cause and effect situation. people tend to react to those around them. Some think on their responses first others don't.

But allowing some to get away it while others that are getting hit with the stick for more or less the same thing is wrong. "Whats good for the Goose is good for the Gander." Cheesy I know but meh it fits lol.

[Melodicya]

Hello Everyone!

First I just need to say we did need to remove a few posts from the thread as they were off topic. Do try to keep the conversation to the topic at hand please.

While I'm not necessarily able to address all your concerns, I would like to provide insight on a few topics that came up.

In regards to the manner in which the Moderation team speaks on the forums. We try to speak politely and clearly in all our communications, both in game and on the forums, which sometimes leads people to rather logical conclusion that everything we say is "scripted." While I understand how it may seem that way, we do endeavor to provide the best service.

This leads me into the second answer to a question that was posed. You may recognize our names from within Final Fantasy XI if you've ever spoken to a Game Master in game. Some of the Game Master Team does work both In Game and on the Forums. (However, please keep in mind that because issues are handled differently, Forum issues can only be addressed through the forum, and In Game Issues only addressed in game.)

I just want you all to know your complaints have been heard, and while I can't address each of them individually, I will see if I can bring this thread to the attention of others who may be able to provide more insight.

Meanwhile, please do try to keep the conversation on topic.

As always, you can review the Guidelines here:

FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines
http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1

Thank you very much for your continued feedback!

[Sayelle]

Thanks for the response, it's nice to know that someone is paying attention.

[Kensagaku]

Hello Everyone!

First I just need to say we did need to remove a few posts from the thread as they were off topic. Do try to keep the conversation to the topic at hand please.

While I'm not necessarily able to address all your concerns, I would like to provide insight on a few topics that came up.

In regards to the manner in which the Moderation team speaks on the forums. We try to speak politely and clearly in all our communications, both in game and on the forums, which sometimes leads people to rather logical conclusion that everything we say is "scripted." While I understand how it may seem that way, we do endeavor to provide the best service.

This leads me into the second answer to a question that was posed. You may recognize our names from within Final Fantasy XI if you've ever spoken to a Game Master in game. Some of the Game Master Team does work both In Game and on the Forums. (However, please keep in mind that because issues are handled differently, Forum issues can only be addressed through the forum, and In Game Issues only addressed in game.)

I just want you all to know your complaints have been heard, and while I can't address each of them individually, I will see if I can bring this thread to the attention of others who may be able to provide more insight.

Meanwhile, please do try to keep the conversation on topic.

As always, you can review the Guidelines here:

FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines
http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1

Thank you very much for your continued feedback!

Thank you very much for your reply, Melodicya! It's very much appreciated, and it goes a long way to showing us posters that you guys are listening. I understand your difficulties and concerns; after all, this may be a game for us, but for you guys it's a business and a job. As a result, you're expected to behave on a professional note, and we all know how robotic the professionalism has to sound sometimes. xD

But again, it's nice to see that you guys really are there, and the occasional post like this really does help. Especially since you're passing it along to others who may help. Once again, thank you for your time!

[Starcade]

Why must stuff always happen when I go to nap? Alright, to address a few things here.

First off, I'm sorry about removing the tags, but I want to keep this thread fairly serious. This was not an attempt at a troll thread nor was it meant to stir up controversy. Starcade, I apologize for directly pointing you out, but it was a recent and proper example. Blocking out your name wouldn't have done anything because of your... unique... personality. So if you felt dragged into this, my apologies. Truely.


I wasn't mad at you per se.

The thing is that I wanted to make clear my abject disrespect for most of the US playerbase. You made reference to what I said to someone else, and that was basically because I felt he was the type of person of which there are far too many of in this game.

[Korpg]

I just want you all to know your complaints have been heard, and while I can't address each of them individually, I will see if I can bring this thread to the attention of others who may be able to provide more insight.

I understand that you have to babysit a lot of little children on this forum it seems like, but some things seems like they were deleted because people hit the report button on others just because they don't like them.

Several of my posts in previous threads were deleted because a moderator stated that they were either "derogatory" or "off topic." If they actually read those posts, they would have seen that I was referring to an question asked or responding to a point made in another's post. How can that be either off topic or derogatory? The posts were answering questions made by others.

I'm sure you have a log of users who use the report button, but maybe you should include in that log who reports who, and you might see a lot of people abusing this system even though they are putting "meaningful" replies in the report button.

[svengalis]

I know there have been threads like this previously, and I know that most of them got shut down pretty quickly. But at the same time, this is an important issue, and while I'm not one to whine and complain about every little bad thing I come across, enough is enough.

Now I have noticed an alarming phenomenon in a number of threads; the OP of the thread, by smashing the Report Button on everything that s/he dislikes, causes posts to get deleted quickly. This isn't a universal problem; after all, there is a reason that we have a report button, to report the posts that violate forum guidelines and cause trouble that is detrimental to the forums. These sorts of posts? I can see them getting deleted, it's all fair and well.

But that's not the problem. The problem is that this applies to any and all posts that (generally) the OP of a thread does not like. S/He hits report a few dozen times, and boom, the post with any disagreements is gone, and s/he can smile and be on his/her way with his/her own side of the argument intact, all opposition deleted away.

Moderators, this is a cry to you to actually... y'know, moderate. I'm not sure what the problem is here, but I'm sensing a very impersonal touch that is really starting to hurt the quality of these forums more and more by the day. Let me give you an example:

http://i51.tinypic.com/2cwwf9g.png

Now, let us look at the posts that were deleted. The one that's essentially "get out" is understandably deleted. That was an unfortunately rude and (although true) improper way of handling this situation. The one beneath it was that Starcade had a poor attitude, which was stating an obvious fact that most could see and did not need to be deleted.

However, look at Starcade's still intact post. It says, quite bluntly (and I apologize for my choice of wording, but I'm trying to remain accurate in my quoting), to "go screw yourself." This is an obviously rude and derogatory remark that only serves to hurt the forums, not help encourage people to post and enjoy their time here. I have reported it as is part of my responsibility as one of the members of the forum. Yet no action was taken (scratch that, now the whole thread has been nuked, I guess that's just what happens after X number of reports).

But you can see my point, mods. Are you really there, observing threads as needed, following up on those reported posts and actually looking at them before you delete them? Are you looking to see the context of the posts around it, to see what is going on? If so, why would you leave a clearly offensive post that trumps either of the ones surrounding it and delete the other two? It makes no sense.

So I ask you, mods: Can you give us some sort of sign you're even paying attention?

I think that was the appropriate reply for that post.

[Kensagaku]

I think that was the appropriate reply for that post.

Well I suppose I should expect disagreement. Unfortunately, I have to politely disagree as well. I feel that such direct and derogatory comments being left alone while other less offensive (though still offensive, I won't debate that point) comments directly around it are deleted. I feel that there is no standard in place as a result; if something gets enough reports, it is offhandedly deleted. If it's not reported enough times, it won't even get looked at. I personally reported the post I showed, and nothing came of it. Admittedly the thread got nuked later but at the time I felt the response to be a poor one.

[GlobalVariable]

In regards to the manner in which the Moderation team speaks on the forums. We try to speak politely and clearly in all our communications, both in game and on the forums, which sometimes leads people to rather logical conclusion that everything we say is "scripted." While I understand how it may seem that way, we do endeavor to provide the best service.That sentiment has more to do with seeing the exact same phrase repeated over and over and knowing it is obviously on a macro for the in game support and knowing the same people moderate the forums, so we're expecting it here as well.


(However, please keep in mind that because issues are handled differently, Forum issues can only be addressed through the forum, and In Game Issues only addressed in game.)!There is no way to challenge an in forum decision without posting off topic. And since the content of your original post is GONE the next poster in the thread thinks you did something wrong.

the knowledgeable folks will get run off by posters who who troll/flame bait them then start hiding behind the rules or pretend they were attacked.

[Glamdring]

My high school principal once explained our ANEMIC student handbook: he didn't want to make a rule against throwing paint on the walls on Monday... because then he had to do the same thing for every other day of the week. Once you've made a rule on something you open the door for skirting that rule. I'm not a big fan of Autocratic action but there is a time to be Arbitrary, and moderation is one of those times.

Of course, there is a totally different problem. If you require a moderator to investigate if all or part of a post is a problem before they nuke a post that means that there are going to be delays, whereas a strict rule allows you to just say yes or no. It's an even bigger problem if we are talking about nuking a poster because you are talking about silencing a voice that may have some real points to share... and some personality issues we'd rather they didn't. I DO want them to investigate before they tell X that they and their thoughts are no longer welcome here. And how do you permaban someone that can simply create a new account?

Sticky issues, thoughts people?

My personal musings: a new thread limit, maybe 2/week from any given poster? Link the report button to the investigation priority list... both for the reporter and the reportee; if someone is simply trolling the threads trying to report everything by a specific poster it could be that the reporter is actually the instigator. Be a little quicker on locking threads, lock before they get out of hand and if you later decide that they are ok and reopen them fine. Make consequences in game for forum violations, personal attacks are personal attacks whether here on in game and shouldn't be tolerated in either place. A forum /blist feature so if I don't want to read X's drivel I don't even have to know it's there. A PM feature so if people have an issue they can maybe handle it outside the threads which are available to everyone.

I don't get along with everyone... and I really don't want to, I don't even think I'm required to try. I expect the same in return. My comments have stepped on some toes and some replies have stepped on mine. I have a thick skin for that type of thing, and I hope most do as well. I'm not here to demonstrate the benefits of sensitivity training, probably because I don't really believe in any. I do not flame others as a rule (but I do have a temper, and stupidity can infuriate me as few other things can [not ignorance, that's different]), I reply with the same reasoning I put into OP I start. I don't expect to be agreed with by everyone, but I do expect if you disagree with me that you use reasoning as well, and it would help if you shared it; if your reasoning is better than mine you may even get a convert!

[Glamdring]

I understand that you have to babysit a lot of little children on this forum it seems like, but some things seems like they were deleted because people hit the report button on others just because they don't like them.

Several of my posts in previous threads were deleted because a moderator stated that they were either "derogatory" or "off topic." If they actually read those posts, they would have seen that I was referring to an question asked or responding to a point made in another's post. How can that be either off topic or derogatory? The posts were answering questions made by others.

I'm sure you have a log of users who use the report button, but maybe you should include in that log who reports who, and you might see a lot of people abusing this system even though they are putting "meaningful" replies in the report button.

A reply to a question is a reply to a question, but if it isn't the OP's question, then it is off topic... TO THE THREAD. Not sure if that is grounds for deletion.

Derogatory content can occur at any time, even in the original post. A good guideline is if your post paraphrases the following snippet from my daily speech: "Hey you innefectual intelectual weenie pinhead" followed by almost anything. I work in the legal field, can't you tell?

[Greatguardian]

2/Day may be plenty sufficient for a new thread limit, in my opinion. There are plenty of good threads (or could be, rather) and only a handful of posters that come here are able to share information on advanced game mechanics if they choose to do so. Honestly, I think threads like the "Haste: A guide" thread would be significantly more common if said thread didn't become a cluster of crap after 3 pages, despite the OP being an absolutely wonderful resource. I'm sure Hordecore makes far more than 2 threads a day so even a limit like that would cut down on his ... special brand of posting.

That aside, I was originally fairly impressed with how the forum moderation staff was handling things when these forums were instituted. Even post alterations were very specific, and some came with specific commentary from the moderator about why things were changed. Unfortunately, and this is honestly not entirely the moderator's fault, it seems like we, the posters, have flooded them with far too many Reports to handle and stretched them too thin.

As Glam said, when you have a queue of 100+ reported posts to sift through, eventually you're going to just start deleting anything that looks inflammatory just to get through them all. The ideal solution would be to simply stop posters who excessively spam the Report button (There are a couple whom I'm sure everyone can name who very blatantly abuse the Report button every time they disagree with someone). This would not only curtail the reporting of non-abusive posts, but would also cut down on the volume of Report calls being handed to the GM staff, allowing them to better respond to the calls that they do receive.

Since I'm not sure if they'd be allowed to take such direct action, it may just become prudent to log the Reports each poster hands out and investigate those if they appear excessive. Filing false complaints is a big deal, and it ultimately lowers the quality of service we are able to receive from our GM staff.