Allow Weaponskills from off-hand weapons with 50%- damage

[hordecore]

allow us to use ws from our off-hand weapons with reduced damage

[Arcon]

I don't actually think this is a bad idea. Could see some uses in that, offhand sword for Flat Blade or something similar, could also used for WS points. Of course people would use it for Abyssea procs, but I don't see how it is better or worse than what we already have.

[Zyeriis]

I don't actually think this is a bad idea. Could see some uses in that, offhand sword for Flat Blade or something similar, could also used for WS points. Of course people would use it for Abyssea procs, but I don't see how it is better or worse than what we already have.

You lost me when you posted in a hordecore thread. If you're going for abyssea procs just equip it to main hand?

[Tamoa]

I completely fail to see the point in being able to ws with offhand weapon for reduced damage.

Inb4 "to deal less damage while trying to proc blue so you don't kill the nm before proc".

[Xilk]

I completely fail to see the point in being able to ws with offhand weapon for reduced damage.

Inb4 "to deal less damage while trying to proc blue so you don't kill the nm before proc".

bst/dnc offhand twilight knife, then I can use Aeolian Edge for Amberlight/multikill w/out sacrificing Rampage.
OR, you can proc on multiple weapons w/out switching and losing tp.

you build tp on weapon and someone else gets a hint about what ws type it is. You can have that for your off-hand.
Its gives one more dynamic control. I think its a neat little idea.

blue mage, sword and club would be another handy time to have either ws type.

[Tamoa]

Ok so, elemental weaponskills used for red procs normally don't deal a hell of a lot of damage. Have one or maybe two DDs with discernment using an elemental ws until one of them gets hint. Hint will narrow it down to only a few weaponskills, sometimes to one specific (Freezebite, Earth Crusher, Red Lotus Blade, Raiden Thrust).

To proc blue, we all know that depends on time of day. So if it's slashing, there would be no reason for a blue mage to offhand club for ws (not that I have any idea which club weaponskills a blue mage has access to). If it's blunt, there would be no reason to offhand dagger/sword/katana for ws. And so on and so forth.

Bst/dnc offhanding Twilight Knife for Aeolian Edge would still be sacrificing Rampage as I would assume offhand ws would still require 100%tp and would use that tp? Then you might as well mainhand it and get full damage, instead of reduced damage as suggested by the OP?

[Alukat]

god no, pls dont make thing easier as they are already

[Arcon]

You lost me when you posted in a hordecore thread. If you're going for abyssea procs just equip it to main hand?

Despite the fact that he's an obvious troll he posted more useful ideas than some other members on here. Also, now you posted too.

Getting TP with offhand often sucks due to low skill rating, and quite possibly being underskilled even for the already low cap. Club is a nice example. So dual wielding a dagger and club would help TP gain a lot, making it easier to proc.

And changing weapons is just tedious if you need different kinds of WS all the time, especially if you only decide to AoE mid fight, and you do it frequently. Sometimes it's just nice to be prepared for either situation. What about Skillchain properties, trying to open a level 3 skillchain with one hand, close it with the other. Every bit of TP counts, you can't just switch weapons to make it work.

Not saying it's a grave issue or anything, just saying I could see uses for it. In fact, I don't see why it shouldn't be possible at all, offhand has no other penalties, so apparently FFXI characters aren't just right-handed. So why not allow it, even at full strength?


Inb4 "to deal less damage while trying to proc blue so you don't kill the nm before proc".

People think putting "Inb4" in front of an argument makes it less valid. I remember a few cases just off the top of my head where this would have been useful. Just last week we held Empousa at 1% for our DRK, 2 WSs, we chose the wrong one, mob dead. It happens, not even that rarely.

[Tamoa]

Just last week we held Empousa at 1% for our DRK, 2 WSs, we chose the wrong one, mob dead. It happens, not even that rarely.

In this case I'm assuming you were going for blue and it was either GS or scythe, and those are 2h weapons last I checked. And if you haven't triggered blue by 1% then it's rather pointless to try in my opinion, since 1 blue ws is likely to 1shot the mob.

[Tamoa]

And once again, Hordecore has made a thread demanding SE to change something that is not to his liking, not explaining why he thinks his idea is a good one and what purpose it would serve.

[Karbuncle]

I don't feel this idea is Valid. There is no logical reason for it other than laziness. If you want to use Aeolian Edge, Equip a dagger, if you want to use Vorpal Blade, Equip a sword.

Not to mention, With it being off-hand, It creates a whole new problem most people wouldn't understand (that being, the animation of the WS would look stupid). You'd do Savage blade with an Axe? or Evisc with a club? If not they'd need to make entirely new animation for focusing on Offhand weapons.

It may sound like "oh hey, this will make things even easier for me! good idea", But its unrealistic, and I'm sure SE has had their Reasons for not doing it, something we probably don't see (Perhaps programming doesn't allow it? or it would be difficult).

I've played WAR for Triggers back before Discernment, it sucked, but now with Abyssite of Discernment, the excuse it makes procing easier is out the window and pointless outside of "It'll make it so i can be even lazier".

Any other excuse is invalid. I know for one i wouldn't sub an inferior weapon in my offhand simply to have access to a WS I'll almost never use (Someone used BST/DNC as an example for Aeolian Edge, I'd never use that WS, even for Amber, I have Primal Rend.) and if i ever wanted to use Aeolian Edge, I'd like Gear Atma for it, and equip a dagger.

This is not a legitimate good idea, Its just silly and unrealistic. I don't think its productive and judging by the first page, nothing but unproductive banter will come from this thread.


I'm not saying the idea is entirely without merit, Its simply unrealistic, and i'm sure SE had their reasoning for not doing it in the first place. It might be a nice "wet-dream", But I truly believe it will never happen, because the problem probably lies in the programming, not SE "just not doing it".

[Randwolf]

This idea adds nothing to the game. Do what everyone else does, equip the weapon as your main. Really, this has to be one of the most ridiculous ideas I've seen.

[Malamasala]

I'd like to add "Dual wield 2 handed weapons for 50% damage each". Not that I'd dual wield 2 staffs for the DMG rating, I'd do it for the stats.

[Sama]

I completely fail to see the point in being able to ws with offhand weapon for reduced damage.

Inb4 "to deal less damage while trying to proc blue so you don't kill the nm before proc".

100% agree. It's pointless, up to the point that less damage is being performed. We should just get regular damage or no off-hand ws.

[Alhanelem]

I don't see any use for this other than !! procs, and I don't see that as a big enough use by itself to warrant the likely effort required to implement.

[Yarly]

And once again, Hordecore has made a thread demanding SE to change something that is not to his liking, not explaining why he thinks his idea is a good one and what purpose it would serve.

You've just described most of the threads on this forum. Why pick on a single user over other users? IMO that's harassment.

I think this is a really amazing idea.

[Arcon]

I don't feel this idea is Valid. There is no logical reason for it other than laziness. If you want to use Aeolian Edge, Equip a dagger, if you want to use Vorpal Blade, Equip a sword.

Not to mention, With it being off-hand, It creates a whole new problem most people wouldn't understand (that being, the animation of the WS would look stupid). You'd do Savage blade with an Axe? or Evisc with a club? If not they'd need to make entirely new animation for focusing on Offhand weapons.

It may sound like "oh hey, this will make things even easier for me! good idea", But its unrealistic, and I'm sure SE has had their Reasons for not doing it, something we probably don't see (Perhaps programming doesn't allow it? or it would be difficult).

I've played WAR for Triggers back before Discernment, it sucked, but now with Abyssite of Discernment, the excuse it makes procing easier is out the window and pointless outside of "It'll make it so i can be even lazier".

Any other excuse is invalid. I know for one i wouldn't sub an inferior weapon in my offhand simply to have access to a WS I'll almost never use (Someone used BST/DNC as an example for Aeolian Edge, I'd never use that WS, even for Amber, I have Primal Rend.) and if i ever wanted to use Aeolian Edge, I'd like Gear Atma for it, and equip a dagger.

This is not a legitimate good idea, Its just silly and unrealistic. I don't think its productive and judging by the first page, nothing but unproductive banter will come from this thread.


I'm not saying the idea is entirely without merit, Its simply unrealistic, and i'm sure SE had their reasoning for not doing it in the first place. It might be a nice "wet-dream", But I truly believe it will never happen, because the problem probably lies in the programming, not SE "just not doing it".

I don't really agree with anything on there. That's like saying "Teleports are for lazy people, you can just walk!". And saying "this idea isn't valid", yet saying "it isn't without merit" don't go very well together. It's not unrealistic either, it shouldn't be hard to implement at all.

This is one of the most-used ways of reasoning I've seen on these forums:
"This idea sucks because you can already do it another (usually more complicated and tedious) way!"

It's been used against so many great ideas on here and it's a shame that people even think this way. Ask yourselves another thing: Why shouldn't this feature be implemented? What's against it? Other than that there are already more annoying ways to achieve it. Even if you would gain absolutely no use out of it, why shouldn't you be able to? Should crappy WS be removed from the game, because they serve no purpose? There's so many absolutely dead aspects to the game, should all of those be removed?

It's not about utility, it's about gameplay. It wouldn't hurt anyone, and someone may get a remote use out of it, and it doesn't seem far fetched, logically speaking.

And why is everyone so hung up on this being a hordecore thread? Trolls can't have decent ideas? He's made good suggestions before, like the second chat window or alliance target buffs (which were dismissed by the same people as here, for the same reason, but taken seriously and discussed by others). Just ignore the name and judge each thread by its own merits.

As to the effort to implement this, there must be some function, client-side, that determines the available weapon skills in real-time, depending on the weapon. I don't assume to know how it works, but obviously it does, as soon as you change weapon it shows you the available weapon skills, and it does so fast, so it has to be efficient. All they'd need to do is run the function twice, once for mainhand, and again for offhand, that's it.

[Garota]

I'm totally for this! I don't see how this is any different than having a Crossbow or Bow and subbing Ranger in order to use those weapon skills provided by subjob on a weapon that you have equipped... Props to the OP!

[Karbuncle]

I don't really agree with anything on there. That's like saying "Teleports are for lazy people, you can just walk!". And saying "this idea isn't valid", yet saying "it isn't without merit" don't go very well together. It's not unrealistic either, it shouldn't be hard to implement at all.

This is one of the most-used ways of reasoning I've seen on these forums:
"This idea sucks because you can already do it another (usually more complicated and tedious) way!"

It's been used against so many great ideas on here and it's a shame that people even think this way. Ask yourselves another thing: Why shouldn't this feature be implemented? What's against it? Other than that there are already more annoying ways to achieve it. Even if you would gain absolutely no use out of it, why shouldn't you be able to? Should crappy WS be removed from the game, because they serve no purpose? There's so many absolutely dead aspects to the game, should all of those be removed?

It's not about utility, it's about gameplay. It wouldn't hurt anyone, and someone may get a remote use out of it, and it doesn't seem far fetched, logically speaking.

And why is everyone so hung up on this being a hordecore thread? Trolls can't have decent ideas? He's made good suggestions before, like the second chat window or alliance target buffs (which were dismissed by the same people as here, for the same reason, but taken seriously and discussed by others). Just ignore the name and judge each thread by its own merits.

As to the effort to implement this, there must be some function, client-side, that determines the available weapon skills in real-time, depending on the weapon. I don't assume to know how it works, but obviously it does, as soon as you change weapon it shows you the available weapon skills, and it does so fast, so it has to be efficient. All they'd need to do is run the function twice, once for mainhand, and again for offhand, that's it.

I'd like to first say, Comparing losing ~10TP from switching weapons for procing, and Wasting 20 minutes walking when you could teleport, was probably in the top 10 of "Dumbest comparison I've read online". Because they are wildly different variations of "laziness". the world isn't "Black or white". there are gray areas, and varying degrees of lazy.

Now, While you make a decent argument, I'm still going to say it generally won't help as many people as you make it sound.. No situation I can think of is Valid. You use a WS, get a hint? Well, Your already at ~5/20TP, Switching a weapon won't be a big lose. Plus it only effects 1 handed DD. I don't think i've ever been in a situation, as a one handed DD, where I'm offhanding two different types of Weapons.

NIN? 2 Katanas
THF? 2 Daggers
BST? 2 Axes

And besides that, Theres still the issue of Weaponskill Animations. Using Evisceration With a Katana, or Savage Blade with a Club will just look and sound stupid.

There is maybe a 1 in a million situation where a change like this would benefit someone, especially if off-handing said weapon Gimps the damage of the weaponskill used form Offhanded Weapon. Plus, I can't think of a single job, thats useful, that wields 2 different weapons as a main, accepted, form of Damage. Usually its 2 of the same weapon.

It just doesn't make sense, Even if you got past how unusual it would look to use some of the WS with a different main weapon, theres the programming stand-point, I'm sure there was a reason it was not added from the beginning.

[Raksha]

I'd like to first say, Comparing losing ~10TP from switching weapons for procing, and Wasting 20 minutes walking when you could teleport, was probably in the top 10 of "Dumbest comparison I've read online". Because they are wildly different variations of "laziness". the world isn't "Black or white". there are gray areas, and varying degrees of lazy.

Now, While you make a decent argument, I'm still going to say it generally won't help as many people as you make it sound.. No situation I can think of is Valid. You use a WS, get a hint? Well, Your already at ~5/20TP, Switching a weapon won't be a big lose. Plus it only effects 1 handed DD. I don't think i've ever been in a situation, as a one handed DD, where I'm offhanding two different types of Weapons.


I guarantee that most proc'ers have wasted more time switching weapons than walking somewhere because of no teleports (at least since the introduction of the proc system). I know i've wasted way more than 20 minutes waiting on dudes to proc a mob (not all at once, mind you).

But either way I dunno if this is the kind of thing i want SE wasting time on.

[Yugl]

The OP's suggestion has a few benefits, but most are handled if you're not too lazy to change weapons or regain TP midway. The one benefit I can think of that doesn't apply is if you get the accuracy of your main hand weapon while conducting the WS.

[GlobalVariable]

I remember a suggestion I saw once for a JA on nin to instantly swap main and off hand weapons without tp loss. Seeing this thread reminded me of that.

[Duelle]

And once again, Hordecore has made a thread demanding SE to change something that is not to his liking, not explaining why he thinks his idea is a good one and what purpose it would serve.He probably saw the idea for Escrime on the RDM sub-forums and wanted something similar for every class. Though Escrime is basically dual wield for RDM limited to Sword in mainhand and dagger in offhand only, granting the RDM access to WS from both weapons to make up for our otherwise poor selection of weapons for dagger and poor selection of WS on swords.

[Arcon]

I'd like to first say, Comparing losing ~10TP from switching weapons for procing, and Wasting 20 minutes walking when you could teleport, was probably in the top 10 of "Dumbest comparison I've read online".

It wasn't a quantitive comparison, it was a qualitative analogy. To show a qualitative, not quantitive, similarity in one respect, namely using laziness as an excuse for wanting the game to run smoother. This involves automating certain game elements, transportation is one thing, handling weapon skills another. If either of those can provide the same functionality (reaching a certain location in one case, using a different type of weapon skill in the other case), that enhances the flow of the game, while requiring less time and/or effort (in this case both). Whether or not they're quantitively comparable is a whole different story.

And this is not just about losing TP, this is about having to change weapons in the first place. Especially if you have to change weapons several times and you don't have a macro for it (like me, for example). Admittedly, staggering monsters in Abyssea is the prime example here, if I wanted to do 4 red stagger weapon skills, I would have to switch between Club/Sword and Sword/Club repeatedly (since club is underskilled and I use sword for faster TP gain). Then you wanna try different WS, but you aren't sure if the others were clean, so you change again. And changing is tedious in any way, because you can't change those weapons when both are equipped, so you have to unequip one first. And with the confusing targeting within the equipment menu even that can take a while. And in the time it takes for fully change, especially if you mess up once, it can cost you even more than 20% TP. It's still not comparable to 20 minutes like in the teleport case, but it's still annoying.


Now, While you make a decent argument, I'm still going to say it generally won't help as many people as you make it sound..

My exact words were:

[..] someone may get a remote use out of it [..]

I'm not even saying it's useful or that the world will benefit greatly from it. I'm not even saying it's worth implementing, I'm just saying it's not a retarded idea and there are marginal uses for it. Remember DNC using Joyeuse in offhand? I've even seen COR with that. Nice to have an extra stun available (even for DNC, if Violent Flourish isn't up). Another use, as mentioned before, would be self-skillchaining to create higher tier skillchains with an offhand weapon skill. Or, if we go with the OP's idea of doing less damage with the off-hand, could even be used to delay the death of a monster to get more weapon skills in.


In this case I'm assuming you were going for blue and it was either GS or scythe, and those are 2h weapons last I checked. And if you haven't triggered blue by 1% then it's rather pointless to try in my opinion, since 1 blue ws is likely to 1shot the mob.

It was just an example, it could have as well been a single-handed weapon skill. And there are tons of mobs who wouldn't even raise an eyebrow if they got hit with an underskilled one-handed blue weapon skill, even at 1% (Empousa being one of them). Also, that's precisely why reducing damage for an offhand weapon skill would help in this case.

But as I said, usefulness wasn't even my main arguments for having it. Those would be logic (because it would make sense, no one says player characters are right-handed, since they attack just as accurate and hard with both hands, and even iff, the damage reduction would compensate for that), making weapon skills more readily available, as well as less tedious to use and it being easy to implement.


And besides that, Theres still the issue of Weaponskill Animations. Using Evisceration With a Katana, or Savage Blade with a Club will just look and sound stupid.

Why would you even perform it with the main hand? It's an offhand weapon skill, so flip the animation sideways and do it with the left hand. No extra animating or adjusting required, just mirror the entire thing.


Even if you got past how unusual it would look to use some of the WS with a different main weapon, theres the programming stand-point, I'm sure there was a reason it was not added from the beginning.

There's probably a reason why they didn't, but I doubt it's programming related. Wouldn't be the first time (or second, or third, etc.) that SE didn't include something that would have been easy to add. As I said, there already has to be a function which produces available weapon skills depending on the weapon, all they'd have to do is run it twice. It already is done with CORs and RNGs, as someone pointed out before, so it definitely is possible.

Again, I'm not saying it should be implemented, it would only help me marginally and there's plenty of other things they should be worrying about first, I'm just not a fan of people talking down good ideas for reasons that contribute nothing to the issue at hand.

[hiko]

Getting TP with offhand often sucks due to low skill rating, and quite possibly being underskilled even for the already low cap. Club is a nice example. So dual wielding a dagger and club would help TP gain a lot, making it easier to proc
how dual wielding dagger/club help TP gain more than dual wielding club/dagger?



And changing weapons is just tedious if you need different kinds of WS all the time, especially if you only decide to AoE mid fight, and you do it frequently. Sometimes it's just nice to be prepared for either situation. What about Skillchain properties, trying to open a level 3 skillchain with one hand, close it with the other. Every bit of TP counts, you can't just switch weapons to make it work.

Not saying it's a grave issue or anything, just saying I could see uses for it. In fact, I don't see why it shouldn't be possible at all, offhand has no other penalties, so apparently FFXI characters aren't just right-handed. So why not allow it, even at full strength?
game balance and diversity. why not give all weapons the same WS list or let players use any WS they already learned no matter what weapon they have equiped


I'd like to add "Dual wield 2 handed weapons for 50% damage each". Not that I'd dual wield 2 staffs for the DMG rating, I'd do it for the stats.
empy/quint spear <yes please>
dual wielding 2HW will just over power mages (if they can make enough inventory, +2/+1 elem staff ftw)


I guarantee that most proc'ers have wasted more time switching weapons than walking somewhere because of no teleports (at least since the introduction of the proc system). I know i've wasted way more than 20 minutes waiting on dudes to proc a mob (not all at once, mind you).

But either way I dunno if this is the kind of thing i want SE wasting time on.

any player that started playing before abyssea would have lost way more time witout tele than anybody can loose on wainting trigger
if you remove teleport might as well remove all warps/Horst/conflux and you'll loose more time than having to swap weapons

[Arcon]

how dual wielding dagger/club help TP gain more than dual wielding club/dagger?

That wasn't a response to that, it was just to show why using two different types of weapons beats just using club to get WS or dual wielding clubs. It was leading on to the next point, that swapping the two from mainhand to offhand and vice versa sucks.


game balance and diversity. why not give all weapons the same WS list or let players use any WS they already learned no matter what weapon they have equiped

How will it upset the game balance or diversity? It only allows you to do what you already can do, only less tedious and a tad faster.

[Tamoa]

The advantages to being able to ws with offhand weapon are marginal at best and quite frankly it's not something I think the programmers should even waste their time on implementing into the game. Karbuncle has already pointed out the fact that it wouldn't be as straightforward as it may seem, from a programming point of view.

[Xilk]

The advantages to being able to ws with offhand weapon are marginal at best and quite frankly it's not something I think the programmers should even waste their time on implementing into the game. Karbuncle has already pointed out the fact that it wouldn't be as straightforward as it may seem, from a programming point of view.

Karbuncle has made the best argument in this thread about it not being easy to implement.
Most the rest is personal trolling or whining :P

I never saw this as a demand, only a suggestion. I don't think its a HUGE change, but I need a HUGE change. I think it would be situationally useful, and fun. I think thats plenty of reason to do it.

I also thought it would be simple.

I would not like it if it performed a dagger WS w/ an Axe. The animation should show it being done w/ a dagger. The weaponskills are and should be connected to weapons. breaking that would be terrible. However, trying to WS from off hand would require new animations to be made, which would increase the work required for this change considerably.

i think its a neat idea, but this difficulty probably would make it impractical.

[GlobalVariable]

I would not like it if it performed a dagger WS w/ an Axe. The animation should show it being done w/ a dagger. The weaponskills are and should be connected to weapons. breaking that would be terrible. However, trying to WS from off hand would require new animations to be made, which would increase the work required for this change considerably.

i think its a neat idea, but this difficulty probably would make it impractical.

Yeah, second set of animations for every 1 handed weapons set of weapons skills kills it alone. Very unlikely they'd invest the time for that let alone the more technical aspects. Even the tp lossless main/offhand switch suggestion I saw might be to much trouble for ffxi's engine/programming staff. I don't get where anyone got "demand" out of the OP though.

[Karbuncle]

I guarantee that most proc'ers have wasted more time switching weapons than walking somewhere because of no teleports (at least since the introduction of the proc system). I know i've wasted way more than 20 minutes waiting on dudes to proc a mob (not all at once, mind you).

But either way I dunno if this is the kind of thing i want SE wasting time on.

Well, That seems more like a problem of a bad player. If he can't time his WS to do it within 20 minutes, I somehow doubt that giving him the ability to use a sub weapon is going to fix his IQ or timing skills :(


It wasn't a quantitive comparison, it was a qualitative analogy. To show a qualitative, not quantitive, similarity in one respect, namely using laziness as an excuse for wanting the game to run smoother. This involves automating certain game elements, transportation is one thing, handling weapon skills another. If either of those can provide the same functionality (reaching a certain location in one case, using a different type of weapon skill in the other case), that enhances the flow of the game, while requiring less time and/or effort (in this case both). Whether or not they're quantitively comparable is a whole different story.
(A lot of my post is going to seem rude, I assure you its just the in your head. Read what i say in a calm fashion and it'll make it hurt less.)

If its only going ot help 1 person in a million every so often, There's no reason they should waste production time with it. IN that case, its a useless addition, Its wasting valuable production time. It would be almost as bad as updates to Chocobo Racing.


And this is not just about losing TP, this is about having to change weapons in the first place. Especially if you have to change weapons several times and you don't have a macro for it (like me, for example). Admittedly, staggering monsters in Abyssea is the prime example here, if I wanted to do 4 red stagger weapon skills, I would have to switch between Club/Sword and Sword/Club repeatedly (since club is underskilled and I use sword for faster TP gain). Then you wanna try different WS, but you aren't sure if the others were clean, so you change again. And changing is tedious in any way, because you can't change those weapons when both are equipped, so you have to unequip one first. And with the confusing targeting within the equipment menu even that can take a while. And in the time it takes for fully change, especially if you mess up once, it can cost you even more than 20% TP. It's still not comparable to 20 minutes like in the teleport case, but it's still annoying.

I think using the word "repeatedly" is going a bit too far. Unless you mean over the course of your entire Abyssea adventures. I also think, You should never be full timing Sword/club on any job. so i don't understand why you're ever in that situation.

If you're trying to proc sword, You should be using Sword/sword, or sword/shield, I'm assuming your PLD here. If you're trying to proc Club, Club/Joyeuse would probably be the best bet, or a Kraken Club. Either way, Once you get "The enemy is weak to light based attacks" you would Equip a Sword, Staff, Club, or Katana and start attempting to trigger with said weapon. Once you use a WS, you lose your TP anyway, and get like ~10. So saying "Well, If im using Sword/club and its light, I can use Seraph Blade, then Seraph strike without switching weapons", is kinda moot. Cause the only thing you'd lose from switching weapons at that point would be ~10TP, and this improvement would just save you 10TP.


My exact words were:


I'm not even saying it's useful or that the world will benefit greatly from it. I'm not even saying it's worth implementing, I'm just saying it's not a retarded idea and there are marginal uses for it. Remember DNC using Joyeuse in offhand? I've even seen COR with that. Nice to have an extra stun available (even for DNC, if Violent Flourish isn't up). Another use, as mentioned before, would be self-skillchaining to create higher tier skillchains with an offhand weapon skill. Or, if we go with the OP's idea of doing less damage with the off-hand, could even be used to delay the death of a monster to get more weapon skills in.

Again, not trying to be mean, but if its only going to benefit 1 person in a million once in a blue moon, its not worth the production time at all. the Dev team is clearly very restricted and limited on Production means, This, despite looking easy, From a programming standpoint would take substantial effort.

And in my eyes, it is a "retarded" idea. I'm using your words here, not mine. The idea just does not help enough people for it to hold merit. The idea in foundation is something I'm sure every player has gone "Gee, it would be neat if...", but at the same time, they all generally came to realize "it takes the IQ of a monkey to switch weapons, Theres no need for this in reality i guess".


It was just an example, it could have as well been a single-handed weapon skill. And there are tons of mobs who wouldn't even raise an eyebrow if they got hit with an underskilled one-handed blue weapon skill, even at 1% (Empousa being one of them). Also, that's precisely why reducing damage for an offhand weapon skill would help in this case.

Another thing where I'm trying not to be mean, but i think it will come off that way.

If you're trying to trigger blue, there absolutely 0 reason you should be killing the mob steadily to the point its sitting at 1% and you're going "F**K, we didn't trigger?", This situation is even less likely due to Abyssite of Discernment. It basically narrows it down to 2 to 5 weaponskills depending on what time of day you claimed it.

This seems more like an error on the side of Bad players, where i don't think being able to nerf-weaponskill would help them. They'd still probably be TP'ing on the mob. If they can't figure out how to hold a mob to get a Trigger, I find it hard to believe they're bringing over TP mobs.


But as I said, usefulness wasn't even my main arguments for having it. Those would be logic (because it would make sense, no one says player characters are right-handed, since they attack just as accurate and hard with both hands, and even iff, the damage reduction would compensate for that), making weapon skills more readily available, as well as less tedious to use and it being easy to implement.

I see your points, But again, I hate to sound like a terrible broken record, if its only going to help 1 in a million people once in a blue moon, and generally its only going to help lazy or bad players (I.E those who don't want to switch weapons, or those who zerg a mob to 1% then realize they want blue), there is no reason to waste production time, very limited valuable production time, for this idea.


Why would you even perform it with the main hand? It's an offhand weapon skill, so flip the animation sideways and do it with the left hand. No extra animating or adjusting required, just mirror the entire thing.

Its not that easy, There would be so many issues involved with that. unfortunately programming isn't Microsoft Paint, you just can't open it and hit the "Flip" button. It would take a hell of a lot of time and programming to go through every single 1-handed WS, encode a program to allow them to use it offhand, and to encode the program to nerf the WS Damage, and make entirely new WS animations for use of the Offhand weapon, etc etc.



There's probably a reason why they didn't, but I doubt it's programming related. Wouldn't be the first time (or second, or third, etc.) that SE didn't include something that would have been easy to add. As I said, there already has to be a function which produces available weapon skills depending on the weapon, all they'd have to do is run it twice. It already is done with CORs and RNGs, as someone pointed out before, so it definitely is possible.
I'm not saying it should be implemented, it would only help me marginally and there's plenty of other things they should be worrying about first, I'm just not a fan of people talking down good ideas for reasons that contribute nothing to the issue at hand.

you can't honestly type to me in a serious conflexion saying you can't tell the monumental difference between allowing an Off-hand Weapon's WS to be used with main hand, and a Ranged Weapon Weaponskills?

I don't know if i can adequately describe what i'm trying to say. Ranged weapons are basically another category. They have their own Animations/coding separate from Single handed weapons. They have their own formulas for damage/etc. a Ranged weapon is also separate, in animation, from the "Main Weapon". hence you drawing out the bow from nothingness.

Yah, i really can't explain what i'm trying to say, So i'll stop here. Goodluck with my wall of text :|

[Chiibi]

oh man karby... im in awe xD

[Karbuncle]

Yah, I know -.- Its a giant wall of text.

I hate re-reading it cause I try my best not to make it sound like I'm taking a steamer on him (Cause I'm not). Hes kept the conversation civil to the point he hasn't gone rage on me and I'm trying to do the same :(

[Greatguardian]

Yah, I know -.- Its a giant wall of text.

I hate re-reading it cause I try my best not to make it sound like I'm taking a steamer on him (Cause I'm not). Hes kept the conversation civil to the point he hasn't gone rage on me and I'm trying to do the same :(

I am simply in awe of your ability to stay calm with your counterpoints. I really cannot understand why in the world someone would constantly swap between club/sword and sword/club when their club is underskilled. Sword/Sword for sword (or Sword/Katana, whatever's highest skilled in the offhand), then Club/Sword for club. You lose all of 10 TP and it takes 2 seconds to swap weapons (I do it manually, too).

[Kensagaku]

I'm with GG on this one... I really don't see the value of getting an offhand WS. You should either be dual-wielding the weapon you're proficient with (let's use NIN for example, so katana/katana) and then switching the main weapon as applicable (like club/katana or dagger/katana or sword/katana, keeping with the trend). It's not that hard to select your main weapon without macroing and change it. :s

For PC: ctrl+e -> select main weapon -> select new weapon. Not that hard. ^^;

[Raksha]

any player that started playing before abyssea would have lost way more time witout tele than anybody can loose on wainting trigger
if you remove teleport might as well remove all warps/Horst/conflux and you'll loose more time than having to swap weapons

Thats why I qualified it by saying "(at least since the introduction of the proc system)"



Well, That seems more like a problem of a bad player. If he can't time his WS to do it within 20 minutes, I somehow doubt that giving him the ability to use a sub weapon is going to fix his IQ or timing skills :(


And that's why I qualified it by saying "(not all at once, mind you)."

Do people not read stuff inside parentheses?

[Arcon]

I hate to sound like a terrible broken record

Well, you do. Your wall of text can be summarized by this:
Disclaimers about not trying to be offensive

I don't get offended on here, I don't see the point in it. I also never offend anyone intentionally, although I know some people have trouble taking criticism. Just know that I'm not one of them, whatever you say to me doesn't need a disclaimer, just have at it.
Explaining that it's an idea that almost no one would benefit from

I'm guessing it depends on the definition of "almost no one". One in a million? Underestimate. Half the people? Overestimate. Well, then again, I believe if this was actually added, no one would complain and quite a few people may end up actually using it, even if they feel no need for it at all now.
Saying it's hard to implement

I severely disagree. Do I know the game's coding? No. Do you? I don't think so, unless you're a developer in disguise. If you are and have actually looked at the code, I surrender most of the following argument, otherwise I'm pretty sure I'm right.

I think this would be ridiculously easy to implement. Some minor refinements might need to be done to the stance of a character, or more like the transition into the actual weapon skill, which could be generic for all one-handed weapon skills and would only have to be done once. This wouldn't even be required, but might make it look a bit more realistic. Nothing at all would have to be changed with the actual animation. Virtually nothing would have to be done to damage calculation. Even less would have to be done to calculating the available weapon skills.

And this is not just my opinion and it's not an estimation, this is fact, and I don't have to know SE's code to know it. All you need to know for this is a general understanding of how computer programs work, and I do, having coded for the better part of my life. I've even made 3D games and animations before, that's why I know that mirroring the animation wouldn't even have to be stored anywhere, it could be done with one simple transformation matrix (reflect along a vertical plane aligned with the lign of sight of the player). That's virtually zero calculation time, compared to all other calculations that have to be performed every fraction of a second, and the code required to do this is a one-liner.
Assumptions about how people should be playing and calling people bad players if they do otherwise

Well, that one's arguable. Am I a bad player if I don't exchange weapons to stagger an enemy? I would agree. Am I a bad player for thinking it's tedious to have to do it just to get the job done? I would disagree. I'm just thinking of things the game could profit from.

And saying you lose ~10% TP from switching, when, in some situations, you could be losing 100% TP (and more), which would allow you to proc instantly, is also wrong. You assume that you're the only one on the mob, trying to get a hint. Normally the tank tries to find the hint, while helpers stand at the side, getting TP via Atmas or normal mobs. So someone with Sword/Dagger for example could have 4 WS stored up, ready to use. Now when the tank calls out "fire for red", you can simply use your sword. If they say "wind for red", you can use Cyclone immediately. Granted, it's still only a few seconds you saved (which can be extended still, if you have more people doing the same thing), but it still invalidates your assumption.

Also, assuming that people always deliberately get a mob near death before trying to stagger it is wrong, as is assuming they don't know what they're doing. It can happen for several plausible reasons, none of which include brain damaged players.

Basically, I doubt that saying it's a waste of production time is justified. There are more pressing matters, I agree, and I don't think this feature is urgent, or even required. But I don't think that this argument is valid in this case. Ironically, even if it was valid, it wouldn't need to be mentioned at all. Because ultimately, it's in the eyes of the developers and nothing we say or theorize here will affect that. They're not gonna look at your post and say "oh he said it's not worth it, let's discard that idea" and they're not gonna look at my post and go "oh nvm it is viable, let's get going". If you think it's a bad idea, say that, if you don't, say that, but anything beyond that isn't even worth arguing about.


you can't honestly type to me in a serious conflexion saying you can't tell the monumental difference between allowing an Off-hand Weapon's WS to be used with main hand, and a Ranged Weapon Weaponskills?

No, and I don't recall saying that. In fact, I recall saying something quite different (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/6770-To-The-Devs-Allow-Weaponskills-from-off-hand-weapons-with-50-damage/page3#post_89054).


Its not that easy, There would be so many issues involved with that. unfortunately programming isn't Microsoft Paint, you just can't open it and hit the "Flip" button. It would take a hell of a lot of time and programming to go through every single 1-handed WS, encode a program to allow them to use it offhand, and to encode the program to nerf the WS Damage, and make entirely new WS animations for use of the Offhand weapon, etc etc.

None of that is true. Why can't you open Paint and hit the Flip button? Because it does actually work that easily. And that's still not as easy as the more elegant solution to flip it in real time while being rendered on the screen (which, as I mentioned before, hardly takes any calculation time at all, one matrix multiplication). So you wouldn't have to store it, it would require 0 bytes of additional space, and no additional coding (only adding this one line). And calculating which weapon skills can be used off hand will take qualitatively the same time as now (same complexity class, assume the current time it takes is t(), then it would be 2t(), which is an element of O(t())). You don't even have to classify weapon skills as single-handed weapon skills or two-handed weaponskills, it's a lot easier: simply calculate all weapon skills available to the weapon in the offhand. There's already a function that does it, it works just as well for mainhand and ranged weapons.

Assume you have Triplus Dagger, Warp Cudgel and Raider's Boomerang as weapons. Currently, the available weapon skills are calculated like this:

merge(getWS(getslot('main')), getWS(getslot('range')))

=> merge(getWS("Triplus Dagger"), getWS("Raider's Boomerang"))

=> merge(array(<Dagger WS>), array(<Boomerang WS>))

=> array(<Dagger + Boomerang WS>)
where <Boomerang WS> is an empty array (although maybe SE will add boomerang weapon skills some time in the future, it has already been suggested on here, if I recall correctly). This is decided by the getWS-function, which already exists and won't have to be modified in any way. All you'd have to change it to is to add another WS-array to the merge-function:

merge(getWS(getslot('main')), getWS(getslot('sub')), getWS(getslot('range')))

=> merge(getWS("Triplus Dagger"), getWS("Warp Cudgel"), getWS("Raider's Boomerang"))

=> merge(array(<Dagger WS>), array(<Club WS>), array(<Boomerang WS>))

=> array(<Dagger + Club + Boomerang WS>)

This is not assuming much about their code, this is pretty much the only logical structure to calculate available weapon skills. I don't know anything about how the specific functions work, but I don't have to, because what this idea does wouldn't require changing any of them. It works completely on the already existing functions within the code. As for calculating half the damage, simply change dealdamage(getdamage(<stats>)) to dealdamage(getdamage(<stats>)/2).


For PC: ctrl+e -> select main weapon -> select new weapon. Not that hard. ^^;

CTRL+E > Select sub weapon > Unequip sub weapon > Select main weapon > Select old sub weapon > Select sub weapon > Select old main weapon.

Then add some potential inventory targeting issues to that mix. Still not hard, still tedious.

[Karbuncle]

Okay! Done, And I think you're still vastly underestimating the work required to change anything in this game, Even something we see as "small" like an Animation.

Its not all as simple as you make it sound. This is a general statement. you just don't seem to understand that while yes, its just a pretty animation, the time it would take to remake every WS from the offhand, and to allow said weaponskills to be use would take longer than it would take to remove redundancies from Chat logs, something they've already said they don't have the time for. So there is no realistic way we'll ever see this for at least the next year.
(Addendum below in Edit4)

Beyond that, Its still a less-than-useful Addition. You have convinced me of one thing, however, its not completely useless. But the entire idea is pointless in itself. Its nothing more than a fevered dream of a troll-poster whos greatest quality is making stupid threads in which people will tear eachother apart in. it works.

Point being, the time it would take to code (Please note, I use the word "code" as a general term for putting something into the game) Weaponskills to be Nerfed offhand, to be used offhand, and to make Off-hand Animations for every weapon would be greater than it would take to remove Chat-Redundancies, again, something SE themselves have already said would take too much time to implement.


I still think its only redeeming quality is that it just helps people who can't be assed to equip a different weapon, however, I respect your opinion on the subject :)

Edit: On the Subject of bad players. Sadly thats not subjective in my eyes. If you're goal is to trigger Blue, and your mob is now sitting at 1% HP without Blue triggered, You're a bad player. You should have held the mob, and brought a TP mob. Or learn to time better. I know this wasn't your example, I'm simply pulling it from something else mentioned in this thread.

On top of that i feel that Situation will likely only happen once in a blue moon, Most players are pretty good at triggering, Especially considering the Abyssite of Discenrment makes it much simpler.

edit2: on the topic of "Losing 100% TP or more", I think that depends on what the current situation is. It would be contradicting to say "just blow your TP then switch weapons", but at the same time, I think that would be the logical course of action based on the situation. However, I Can't even name 1 time when I've been sitting at 100% TP, Where I needed to use my off-hand Weapons Weaponskill, and thought "Gee i wish i could without switching". These situations are all incredibly vague and hypothetical to the point of ridiculousness.

I can't think of a single job in the game that always wields 2 separate weapons as a normal form of DD. I'd say perhaps COR, but I'm not to keen on what WS's that job gets, I dont think they get any Exclusive Dagger or Sword Weaponskills?

I appologize but i can't grasp the idea of being with a group of people who are constantly fulltiming Axe/Club, or Sword/Club, or Dagger/Axe or something stupid where this update would actually be meaningful to them. It all seems like something players don't normally ever do.

Plus, personally if it did ever come to a job, I think having to cycle through up to 15 Weaponskills to get the one you want (Assuming you're not using a Macro) would kind of suck (Lets use RNG as an Example, Axe/Dagger and a Bow, thats a lot of Crap to cycle through).

Edit3(?): on the topic of Ranged Weaponry/Main Weapons. Seems kinda like "yah you did"


there already has to be a function which produces available weapon skills depending on the weapon, all they'd have to do is run it twice. It already is done with CORs and RNGs, as someone pointed out before, so it definitely is possible.
I'm not saying it should be implemented,

Right here it sounds like you're saying "Ranged Weaponskills are already displayed with your main Weaponskills, Whats the difference?". I could be understanding you wrong. I'm not sure.

Edit4: On the topic of "Triplus/Etc" Things you listed. I think the term "Spaghetti code" is good for that. Its like back when they updated I think it was Elemental Siphon? They some how managed to break Sneak attack to work from Anywhere, and With Ranged Attacks.

Another Example, When they "fixed" elemental Siphons Animation, They broke the Chat log (it would say the Avatar Recovered MP, not you), then when they "Fixed the chat log" the Animation broke. Point being, It may seem simple to you and me, But theres apparently some bad coding in this game, and Shit breaks everywhere.

Or when they updated pets a while back, and broke Sambas to where everyone gets them. It wouldn't be as easy as "Copy > paste" a similar code, You'd run the chance of encounter bugs that way.

This is all Theoretically, as neither of us work for SE So Eh? At the same time, I do Admit i may be over-estimating the effort involved. However, When it comes to the past, I tend to see things differently now. The amount of things randomly broken from "small" updates is phenomenal. That and a lot of comments from the devs lately have been something like "not enough time" or "harder than it sounds".

Go look at the "Change your wyverns color" thread, In there a rep mentions, while it sounds like a "Simple" pallet swap, theres a lot of crap behind it making it impossible to add right now. So while you and I may see it as simple coding like you listed above, theres apparently something at work in this game that makes it far more difficult than it sounds.

That or they're pulling our leg.

Edit5!


CTRL+E > Select sub weapon > Unequip sub weapon > Select main weapon > Select old sub weapon > Select sub weapon > Select old main weapon.

Unless you're full-timing the Weapon you want to equip in your sub hand (which you shouldn't.) This is moot. because Switching your Main weapon won't dequip your sub weapon so long as your never remove your main weapon. So unless your Sub weapon is what you want your main weapon to be the steps you listed are not correct.

When I'm on THF, I generally Dual Wield Daggers (of course), The only step i need to take is to switch my main hand. When i'm on BST, its 2x Axe, When i'm on PLD, Its Sword/Shield (I'm never on pld =.=a) when i'm on NIN, its Kata/kata. So i'd never need to fully de-quip my main hand weapon.

What jobs do you generally play on where you continually wield 2 different weapons? now be perfectly honest with me :| don't make something up to get your point through.

Edit6: How dare you make me make another Wall of text :(. Also, I feel the need to repeat myself in saying "I'm trying not to sound mean" because a lot of posters on these boards seem to be very whiny and sensitive, and any remote stray from their opinion seems to make them think I'm flaming or trolling them.

[Kensagaku]

CTRL+E > Select sub weapon > Unequip sub weapon > Select main weapon > Select old sub weapon > Select sub weapon > Select old main weapon.

Then add some potential inventory targeting issues to that mix. Still not hard, still tedious.

I'm just quoting the part that applies to me. Now... why would you need to switch your sub and main weapon? I can't think of any situation besides offhandedly skilling up or the ol' Maneater+Ridill combo back in the olden days that you wouldn't use the same weapon main and off. BLU uses Sword/Sword. NIN uses katana/katana. THF and DNC use Dagger/Dagger. BST uses Axe/Axe. Unless you're the rare individual that would choose to use another type of weapon offhand (and I can't imagine why unless it has some insane bonuses to it), then it's really a lot simpler than you make it sound.

----

Example: (we're using a BLU here because we keep going on about swords; I can also relate here better).

Main: Shamshir+2 / Sub: Isador (this is just an example mind you).

You WS with Seraph Blade and find that it's a Light WS. Naturally you go to try club. So you open your equipment and change your weapons to such:

Main: Warp Cudgel / Sub: Isador

Hey look, club WS are now available, go do your Seraph Strike.

----

The way you're looking at it, you're assuming that people are doing something like:

Main: Shamshir +2 / Sub: Warp Cudgel (or applicable weapon).

This is usually (not always) a very inefficient method as you're using a weapon you're not quite as skilled at or perhaps may have lesser bonuses than offhanding another sword for this example. In other words, it's still really simple to switch just the mainhand for a dual-wielder. >.>

Edit after reading Karb's WoT: First off, too many words. /report. :P

You need to be more snarky, Karby. D: People will get offended no matter how much you sugar-coat it. Just toss a little flippant sarcasm in there now and again; people will get you're not amused but you're not trying to be a jerk either. That way you don't have to keep trying to put on the slightly-creepy-IRL forced smile. ._.;

[Zyeriis]

Sigh this is one of the most successful hordecore thread to date. This saddens me.

[Karbuncle]

I like my creepy IRL forced smile.

goes with my Pedo beard and my thousand yard stare.

[Khajit]

This is a horrible/bad/useless idea. All the reasons why have been said 50 times over no doubt.

[hiko]

any player that started playing before abyssea would have lost way more time witout tele than anybody can loose on wainting trigger
if you remove teleport might as well remove all warps/Horst/conflux and you'll loose more time than having to swap weapons
Thats why I qualified it by saying "(at least since the introduction of the proc system)"

Do people not read stuff inside parentheses?
do people read all ?(see bolded part (was not bolded but wasn't inside parentheses))



Explaining that it's an idea that almost no one would benefit from
I'm guessing it depends on the definition of "almost no one". One in a million? Underestimate. Half the people? Overestimate. Well, then again, I believe if this was actually added, no one would complain and quite a few people may end up actually using it, even if they feel no need for it at all now.

lot of people complain with stuff like
"why did se add <insert random update they deem wotrhless>* insted of adding new/not reskinned content

* read after teaser on chocobo circuit,fellow,pankration ..... and you can find this kind of QQing in thread that are still on 1st page

[Raksha]

do people read all ?(see bolded part (was not bolded but wasn't inside parentheses))



I didnt feel the need to respond to your comment about removing Horst etc because I never advocated removing teleports.

[Arcon]

Its not all as simple as you make it sound. This is a general statement. you just don't seem to understand that while yes, its just a pretty animation, the time it would take to remake every WS from the offhand, and to allow said weaponskills to be use would take longer than it would take to remove redundancies from Chat logs, something they've already said they don't have the time for. So there is no realistic way we'll ever see this for at least the next year.
(Addendum below in Edit4)

The idea that you would have to look at any WS at all is still wrong. About the implementation, and its risks due to "spaghetti code", I guess we'll just have to disagree on that. I have only my own experience to go on, and unless I get a glance at SE's code, a theory is all it'll be. However, I have well founded base for my arguments. On the other hand, I doubt your "phenomenal" amount of examples' relation to this matter. I even doubt some of them caused what people thought they did. But it's impossible to prove any of that, so no point arguing.


Point being, the time it would take to code (Please note, I use the word "code" as a general term for putting something into the game) Weaponskills to be Nerfed offhand, to be used offhand, and to make Off-hand Animations for every weapon would be greater than it would take to remove Chat-Redundancies, again, something SE themselves have already said would take too much time to implement.

As I said before, no.


On the Subject of bad players. Sadly thats not subjective in my eyes. If you're goal is to trigger Blue, and your mob is now sitting at 1% HP without Blue triggered, You're a bad player. You should have held the mob, and brought a TP mob. Or learn to time better. I know this wasn't your example, I'm simply pulling it from something else mentioned in this thread.

You're making several assumptions about the situation that simply don't always hold true. Let's take the example I gave on the first page, we had Empousa, but no blue stagger and were about to kill it. Suddenly a DRK friend randomly shows up who was also looking for it. Bad news, Empousa was at 5% and flying. Since it's nearly impossible to stagger it while it's flying, due to TP/spell spam, and almost as impossible to survive, due to its constant high-damage attacks, and only lands after some amount of damage is done, we meleed it down further. At 1% we said screw it and were about to kill it, when it finally landed. But by that point, the next WS killed it.

I can think of plenty of situation where something similar could happen. When you hold a mob, wait for someone to come stagger it but don't wanna hold the mob for ages, because three LS are standing around you, looking angry. So naturally you'd want to melee it down further. Then first blue is unclean, next blue unclean, then your naked WAR75 with no buffs dies to an AoE attack and has to get up again. Before you know it, the mob is down to 1% again, because you're all so weak. Either way, your assumption is wrong.


However, I Can't even name 1 time when I've been sitting at 100% TP, Where I needed to use my off-hand Weapons Weaponskill, and thought "Gee i wish i could without switching". These situations are all incredibly vague and hypothetical to the point of ridiculousness.

Of course. Because right now you can't do it. If this was implemented, you would be more likely to do just that.


I can't think of a single job in the game that always wields 2 separate weapons as a normal form of DD. I'd say perhaps COR, but I'm not to keen on what WS's that job gets, I dont think they get any Exclusive Dagger or Sword Weaponskills?

WAR used to do it with Ridill (and even with Joyeuse), DNC has been known to do it as well on occasion, as has DRK. Situationally I've even done it on my underleveled WAR back in the day (Lv50 BC, Axe/MKris for Gale Axe spam). No one said it's standard, no one even said it's for DD purposes. It can have strategic uses though. And still, the same point applies as before, I was talking about how it would be after this was implemented, not how it is now.


Plus, personally if it did ever come to a job, I think having to cycle through up to 15 Weaponskills to get the one you want (Assuming you're not using a Macro) would kind of suck (Lets use RNG as an Example, Axe/Dagger and a Bow, thats a lot of Crap to cycle through).

Weird argument. Ever tried CTRL+M?


on the topic of Ranged Weaponry/Main Weapons. Seems kinda like "yah you did"


there already has to be a function which produces available weapon skills depending on the weapon, all they'd have to do is run it twice. It already is done with CORs and RNGs, as someone pointed out before, so it definitely is possible.
I'm not saying it should be implemented,

Right here it sounds like you're saying "Ranged Weaponskills are already displayed with your main Weaponskills, Whats the difference?". I could be understanding you wrong. I'm not sure.

You're reading it wrong:

It already is done with CORs and RNGs, as someone pointed out before, so it definitely is possible.


you can't honestly type to me in a serious conflexion saying you can't tell the monumental difference between allowing an Off-hand Weapon's WS to be used with main hand, and a Ranged Weapon Weaponskills?

I never said it was the same thing. I simply said it's possible. That's why I said that I was talking about something different when you asked that. Also, I never said that offhand weapon skills should be used with the main hand, so that was wrong too. I think that's a silly idea. It should be performed with the off hand, naturally.


Unless you're full-timing the Weapon you want to equip in your sub hand (which you shouldn't.) This is moot. because Switching your Main weapon won't dequip your sub weapon so long as your never remove your main weapon. So unless your Sub weapon is what you want your main weapon to be the steps you listed are not correct.

When I'm on THF, I generally Dual Wield Daggers (of course), The only step i need to take is to switch my main hand. When i'm on BST, its 2x Axe, When i'm on PLD, Its Sword/Shield (I'm never on pld =.=a) when i'm on NIN, its Kata/kata. So i'd never need to fully de-quip my main hand weapon.

What jobs do you generally play on where you continually wield 2 different weapons? now be perfectly honest with me :| don't make something up to get your point through.

As in me personally? None. But I did name some before. And when you do it, you usually have a TP generating weapon in the off hand, which would be perfect to gain TP on in the mainhand, which is why you'd want to use that one. You don't even have to equip the old mainhand weapon in the off hand again, I guess in most cases you wouldn't, since it's faster to gain TP with a multi-hit weapon alone (if it is indeed one). In any case, I was just trying to point out how tedious changing weapons can be. Normally it's just a bit less tedious.

A wall of text begets a wall of text, that's the way of internet arguments.


This is a horrible/bad/useless idea. All the reasons why have been said 50 times over no doubt.

I didn't hear a reason against it so far. Neither the fact that it won't be imminently useful to everyone, nor the semi-founded and debateable opinion that it would be hard to implement count as arguments against it.

[blowfin]

Any other excuse is invalid. I know for one i wouldn't sub an inferior weapon in my offhand simply to have access to a WS I'll almost never use (Someone used BST/DNC as an example for Aeolian Edge, I'd never use that WS, even for Amber, I have Primal Rend.) and if i ever wanted to use Aeolian Edge, I'd like Gear Atma for it, and equip a dagger.

You should try AE sometime then, it works pretty well on BST. I`ll gear and atma for AE instead of Primal Rend any day of the week. Depends on what you`ve got to play with I guess though. Martial Knife, OA2-4 Axe, plus appropriate atmas and pets do the trick pretty well.


I didn't hear a reason against it so far. Neither the fact that it won't be imminently useful to everyone, nor the semi-founded and debateable opinion that it would be hard to implement count as arguments against it.

For the amount of merit this idea has (i.e. next to none) pretty much any effort to implement it is a waste. There are already a myriad of avenues to proc in Abyss, if you have any clue whatsoever what you're doing, which i'm sure includes you too. Try looking at it from SE's point of view, they want to give us good new content and fix actual problems, not making what is probably quite a complicated change to assist the occasional late person or someone who decides they want a drop while they're twiddling their thumbs in Port Jeuno. Your example is a very unusual situation too, and if it takes an exceptional circumstance to justify the reasoning for a change, then chances are it's not worth it.

[Khajit]

I didn't hear a reason against it so far. Neither the fact that it won't be imminently useful to everyone, nor the semi-founded and debateable opinion that it would be hard to implement count as arguments against it.
THen you obviously have not read a single post in this thread so far other than the OP and your own posts.

[Arcon]

For the amount of merit this idea has (i.e. next to none) pretty much any effort to implement it is a waste. There are already a myriad of avenues to proc in Abyss, if you have any clue whatsoever what you're doing, which i'm sure includes you too. Try looking at it from SE's point of view, they want to give us good new content and fix actual problems, not making what is probably quite a complicated change to assist the occasional late person or someone who decides they want a drop while they're twiddling their thumbs in Port Jeuno. Your example is a very unusual situation too, and if it takes an exceptional circumstance to justify the reasoning for a change, then chances are it's not worth it.

I don't disagree there at all. I said three times already that I don't feel a need for this to be added. But as I explained in this post (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/6770-To-The-Devs-Allow-Weaponskills-from-off-hand-weapons-with-50-damage/page4#post_89352), saying that it's not worth implementing is not an argument against it, because that is for SE alone to decide and any speculation at all is purely hypothetical (including my own). What if it takes just 3min to implement? Would that still be time wasted? Arguable I guess, since barely anyone feels a need for it. Personally, I think the idea makes sense, regardless of its usefulness. And as I said before, if it actually was implemented, I doubt anyone would complain.




This is a horrible/bad/useless idea. All the reasons why have been said 50 times over no doubt.

I didn't hear a reason against it so far. Neither the fact that it won't be imminently useful to everyone, nor the semi-founded and debateable opinion that it would be hard to implement count as arguments against it.

THen you obviously have not read a single post in this thread so far other than the OP and your own posts.

Seeing how you can't (or at least don't) name a reason yourself, this post (and the one before) make you more of a troll than the OP.

[blowfin]

What if it takes just 3min to implement?

It's still not very useful, seeing as the entire game has been designed from the ground up without it. Besides, it's still 3 minutes that could be spent on something else.


And as I said before, if it actually was implemented, I doubt anyone would complain.

I'm not sure if I'd complain or not, i'd certainly feel insulted though.

[Xilk]

It's still not very useful, seeing as the entire game has been designed from the ground up without it. Besides, it's still 3 minutes that could be spent on something else.



I'm not sure if I'd complain or not, i'd certainly feel insulted though.

lol, why feel insulted?

I think it would be fun and interesting? where is the harm in it?

Those complaining that it would be useless are clueless. Would it be game changing? almost certainly not, but thats not useless. I gave a few examples in my initial post to the thread.
It probably is not a practical change, but it could be fun in a small way. I'm surprised at how strongly so many have felt over this idea. Its not a threat to anything.

[Zyeriis]

It is useless. If you're too lazy to put the weapon in your main equipment slot and lose that 10~ or so tp, and weaponskill at half-power because it's equipped in the off-hand (if this was implemented), then you'd be a fool and a n00b. If they didn't put a damage restriction on it, it'd be completely unbalanced and the death of 2H weapon jobs like Samurai.

"You don't have access to two different pools of weaponskills simultaneously? Gtfo."
"But I can proc!"
"So can the other guy, except he doesn't need to waste that precious 1-2 seconds switching weapons."
"But I have a Great Katana!"
"So do Ninjas."
"Mine do more damage!"
"So? We're trying to proc, not kill it."
"What about when it's time to kill it?"
"We have WAR for that, go level WAR!"

^ Sounds a lot like what things are like now, if they were even worse, if you ask me. Feeling strongly over this idea is because it's a hordecore troll thread intended to mock legitimate ideas and to spark idiotic arguments while he sits back and watches. That's irrelevant to the people agreeing with the bad idea though.

Not a threat to anything? Don't make me cry. (If you find this offensive, can't help it, the idea just looks blatantly stupid and troll-inspired if you ask me, if you don't see that, there's nothing I can do to change that nor will I try further than this.)

[Tamoa]

If I had to decide between SE giving drgs the option to change wyvern colour, and the ability to ws with offhand weapon for 50% damage, I'd pick the first one.

This just screams lazy, lazy, lazy.

[Xilk]

It is useless. If you're too lazy to put the weapon in your main equipment slot and lose that 10~ or so tp, and weaponskill at half-power because it's equipped in the off-hand (if this was implemented), then you'd be a fool and a n00b. If they didn't put a damage restriction on it, it'd be completely unbalanced and the death of 2H weapon jobs like Samurai.

"You don't have access to two different pools of weaponskills simultaneously? Gtfo."
"But I can proc!"
"So can the other guy, except he doesn't need to waste that precious 1-2 seconds switching weapons."
"But I have a Great Katana!"
"So do Ninjas."
"Mine do more damage!"
"So? We're trying to proc, not kill it."
"What about when it's time to kill it?"
"We have WAR for that, go level WAR!"

^ Sounds a lot like what things are like now, if they were even worse, if you ask me. Feeling strongly over this idea is because it's a hordecore troll thread intended to mock legitimate ideas and to spark idiotic arguments while he sits back and watches. That's irrelevant to the people agreeing with the bad idea though.

Not a threat to anything? Don't make me cry. (If you find this offensive, can't help it, the idea just looks blatantly stupid and troll-inspired if you ask me, if you don't see that, there's nothing I can do to change that nor will I try further than this.)

lolz. you're almost rabid. Its not useless. I've already said its not a big deal. its a small thing, and it would be fun. It would not help alot and it doesn't matter if its not done.

you are grossly exaggerating the silly little argument about taking sam to a pug. This will happen already w/ our w/out WS from offhand.
offensive, no? ridiculous? yes :P



If I had to decide between SE giving drgs the option to change wyvern colour, and the ability to ws with offhand weapon for 50% damage, I'd pick the first one.

This just screams lazy, lazy, lazy.
It doesn't scream lazy. Did I say I switching weapons is too hard?

I agree choosing different wyvern colors would be better.

I don't care much about off-hand WS. I think its a decent idea. I just find the vehement protests silly and way over the top. It appears more so that hordecore has 2x admirers who are overzealous.

I don't recall the content of any of their posts beyond this thread, but that is certainly the impression this gives.

This idea is interesting, if unimpressive. I would think it would have faded before now.

[Karbuncle]

Is it bad every time i read a post i lost my faith in humanity all over again?

I think it is.

That being said, to uh, I forgot, someone telling me to Aeolian Edge. I think Primal Rend puts out better numbers at 100%TP, especially considering its get the 'Ice" treatment (Atma of the Beyond has Light:Major as well), So its the better call when your only goal is Amber/fighting 1 mob. But as a THF, I'm aware how awesome Aeolian Edge can be. I've Aeolian burned a few times.

But i would just switch to a Knife rather than (The ops idea) use Aeolion from off-hand for 50% Damage :X

To Arcon: I'm done, Sorry, My hands hurt i don't want to type another wall of text, Though, I will say, If it only took 3 minutes to implement, I'd rather them let me change my Wyverns color >___> Like really, I want a Silver wynver.

Anyway, You know my Opinion, I know yours. We're starting to look like the Internet picture "INTERNET ARGUMENT" with the little child (me) and the Horse (you). SO we should stop while we're ahead.









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(And i'm clearly winning :D)

[Pikel]

I don't think this will be implemented but does that make it a bad idea? Not to me. I know most people play with 18 person alliances filled with shouts and always have all the right jobs and play under perfect circumstances but not me.

I generally low man everything 2-4 members. Less competition for drops and I enjoy the lack of drama. When trying to KI farm I come Nin/war which can proc club, sword, katana, dagger (all one handed weapons) and Great Katana and Staff. With the ability to use sub ws's I could wield Katana/club then Dagger/sword while i look for hints. Sometimes it's a Great katana or staff proc which i get to last or heaven forbid something I do not have. These nm's are easy to kill so if I miss red I miss it but for one person to cycle threw all those ws's without a hint (which isn't 100%) can consume alot of hp.

Now when I am doing this I use Double attack and Tripple attack atmas with VV. So assuming a 10% tp loss on weapon change to me just seems retarded. By the time I open my window to change weapons I am between 20-50% tp depending if i have to cast shadows to live or if DA/TA kick in. That's 3 swaps at 20-50% tp lost that could be reduced to 1 swap if this idea was implemented. Your talking 60-150% tp wasted assuming I didn't lag out and miss the fact one of my ws's was dirty and then have to go back to try again once I do get the hint.

Aside from that example someone brought up the point of Killing hard shit like say Rani. Proc jobs sit on 100%+ tp waiting for hints. To find out I have 100% tp for the wrong weapon when it's one I could actually use sucks when I change weapons then try to find a tp mob. It still wouldn't be 100% I would have the right ws even with this fix but it'd increase the odds more.

Is this game breaking? No
Am I worried about getting this implemented? No
Do I understand why people are so much against this simple idea? Not at all

[blowfin]

That being said, to uh, I forgot, someone telling me to Aeolian Edge. I think Primal Rend puts out better numbers at 100%TP, especially considering its get the 'Ice" treatment (Atma of the Beyond has Light:Major as well), So its the better call when your only goal is Amber/fighting 1 mob. But as a THF, I'm aware how awesome Aeolian Edge can be. I've Aeolian burned a few times.

But i would just switch to a Knife rather than (The ops idea) use Aeolion from off-hand for 50% Damage :X

I dunno, for building lights I've found it to be way more efficient to use AE over Rend on BST, then again I have Cloudsplitter now too, and it's not as bad as people have made out. If you have THF then yeah it's a non-issue and you can safely ignore everything I said.

Anyway...


Those complaining that it would be useless are clueless. Would it be game changing? almost certainly not, but thats not useless. I gave a few examples in my initial post to the thread.
It probably is not a practical change, but it could be fun in a small way. I'm surprised at how strongly so many have felt over this idea. Its not a threat to anything.

It basically would add needless clutter to the game which is probably going to be useful in all of about 0.0000001% of situations. So, technically you could find a use for it, but I feel it's one of the least useful possible things they could add to the game. Maybe not totally useless, but quite close to being utterly and profoundly without purpose. If it took them any time whatsoever to implement it, any positive would be outweighed by it being retardedly situational. Tenfold.

I'd be insulted that our money was wasted on something with so little practical application.

[Karbuncle]

I dunno, for building lights I've found it to be way more efficient to use AE over Rend on BST, then again I have Cloudsplitter now too, and it's not as bad as people have made out. If you have THF then yeah it's a non-issue and you can safely ignore everything I said.


lol yah, THF90 and my favorite job. I remember it being slightly weaker than Primal Rend in general. Though theres a good chance i was gearing it wrong.

Either way, Both good options :P

[Hordecora]

lol yah, THF90 and my favorite job. I remember it being slightly weaker than Primal Rend in general. Though theres a good chance i was gearing it wrong.

Either way, Both good options :P

they should make any job that can dual wield WS from offhand weapon

[Yarly]

they should make any job that can dual wield WS from offhand weapon

yes, but with reduced damage or else it is too overpowered

[hiko]

they should make any job that can dual wield WS from offhand weapon


allow us to use ws from our off-hand weapons with reduced damage

hordecora necrobumping an 8month old thread from hordecore....

[Ophannus]

I dont think this is possible simply because the animation for all 1handed weapon skills are executed with the weapon in the right hand and it would be tedious to go back and use up an additional 100+ weapon skill slots just to make inverted/mirrored animations for the left hand(rather than using these slots for new weapon skills in the future)

[Hordecora]

I dont think this is possible simply because the animation for all 1handed weapon skills are executed with the weapon in the right hand and it would be tedious to go back and use up an additional 100+ weapon skill slots just to make inverted/mirrored animations for the left hand(rather than using these slots for new weapon skills in the future)

let the Dev make offhand weapon have seperate TP bar

[Hordecora]

and that should solve the problem

[Tanakisnumberone]

Tamoa plz stop harrasing Hardecore, becoose its painfully obvious... @OP i like ur idea and i hope Tanaka-san uses valuable resources to make this happen to please you.