AMMO! please

[Jar]

for years this has been a problem and i think SE is just ignoring it but Ammo for COR RNG and anything ranged is .. more or less ether so much money you don't want to buy it or just not possible to get.

Id love to see a response from the DEVs on this issue that in some cases (COR!) Makes the job all but unplayable.

i know there are threads in RNG and COR about this but this is a huge deal its imposable to get bullets. the devs never talk in job threads and alot more ppl will see this here so show some support please!

[Tsukino_Kaji]

I rarely ever see COR shoot anything.

[Chiibi]

I rarely ever see COR shoot anything.

And the reason for that is? (ill give you a hint... see the original post of this topic)

[Jar]

I rarely ever see COR shoot anything.

Ammo is imposable to get

[Jar]

Just checked ffxiah and the level 80 bullet for cor(best ammo still) hasnt been on the AH on caitsith for 10 months

[Chiibi]

Ammo is imposable to get

not impossible to get just difficult. hell on odin steel bullet pouches (12) are upto 300k. >.> yeah.

[Zyeriis]

That likely has to due with Oberon's bullet being crafted only. How do you craft it?


Synergy (Journeyman)

Skills: Alchemy (85), Goldsmithing (38)
Elemental Balance: 40 23
Yield: Oberon's Bullet x99
HQ 1: Oberon's Bullet x198
HQ 2: Oberon's Bullet x297
1 x Oberon's Gold Ingot
1 x Firesand

Oberon's Gold Ingot Recipe:

Goldsmithing (69)
Yield: Oberon's Gold Ingot x 1
Fire Crystal
3 x Gold Ore (5-10k each on AH depending on server, if even on AH)
1 x Fool's Gold Ore

So basically you need Alchemy, Goldsmithing, and Synergy leveled up relatively high to even craft them. It is no wonder they are so difficult to come by. This stems from the ridiculous requirements plus the relative decay of the AH.

I agree they need to fix this but there are many factors to consider when thinking about this issue. Ammo purchasing has always been an issue but, the same can be said as to why Ninjas don't use shurikens or throwing weapons as it is already a costly job.

As for COR, they need to make a quick draw card that can be used for any elemental shot (or at least one that can be used for the damage-inducing ones: ice, fire, earth, lightning, wind, and water). This is a different topic though.

[Chiibi]

well actually corsair can just buy trump cards.. however travelling to nashmau just to buy them is pretty annoying.

[Jar]

Yeah Trump cards lol

[Zyeriis]

Hmm, guess I missed that update while I was gone. Regardless, they should be easily craftable but aren't craftable at all.

[Chiibi]

yup. im still confused as to why corsair dice arnt questable >.> spells are... most important songs are too

[Zyeriis]

yup. im still confused as to why corsair dice arnt questable >.> spells are... most important songs are too

I don't understand why dice aren't ex and are sellable on AH when they aren't questable/craftable either. "Hey buy this thing for 50k more than you can get it from a NPC because I'm stupid and bought it but don't need it/wasted my money as there's no other way to get this."

I could understand certain dice like the ones sold by the npc in Al Zhabi because he could be captured in Besieged but the Nashmau npc? Why the hell did they think that was a good idea? Yes, they later added dice to SCNM loot but who the hell ever did those on a regular basis? No one.

Perhaps we will see such drops in the new "KCNM" battlefields? Doubtful but, it's possible.

[Bhujerba]

well actually corsair can just buy trump cards.. however travelling to nashmau just to buy them is pretty annoying.
Nashmau Earring (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Nashmau_Earring)

[Suirieko]

Or finding someone with Talisman Coat or whatever its called.

[Chiibi]

Nashmau Earring (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Nashmau_Earring)

... Touche'

[wish12oz]

the same can be said as to why Ninjas don't use shurikens or throwing weapons as it is already a costly job.

This comment is actually incorrect.

Ninjas don't use throwing because once you gain access to lots of haste and dual wield throwing becomes a terrible waste of time and incredible loss of DPS.
You actually lose, on average, just over 6 attacks to throw 1 shuriken. So throwing that shuriken means if it doesn't do the same amount of damage as 6 attacks, and gain as much tp as 6 attacks, it was a bad idea to throw it. This is the main reason ninjas stop using shurikens once getting higher in levels.

[Karbuncle]

I think the problem is due to early development of the Bullets.

On Asura, People were selling SINGLE bullets for the Oberon's for 10k each, and people would stupidly buy them thinking "hur hur only use it for Quick Draw". Kinda shot themselves in the foot since selling singles became the "Acceptable" and people still do it.

Either way, I think it would be nice if they introduced cheaper easier to get bullets for higher up, but that would require using really cheap easy to get material (I thought Fools gold was, check prices now...), So its hard to do.

Because if its "Slightly hard to get" like Fools gold, The prices will sky rocket due to high demand and people gouging. Look at when the new ninja tools were added, 30k/stack for Cotton Cloth, Not as drastic as fools gold, but you see my point.

best bet? Add an NPC that sells the bullets.

[Mirage]

Expendables such as ammo, especially when this ammo is required to make a job stay on par with other jobs, should be easily craftable, or a slightly worse alternative should probably be obtainable from an NPC shop. Same reason why ninja's throwing shit never took off. However, nin always had melee to fall back on, and they were also good at tanking stuff so they always had a good role to play. Ranger is however a ranged job, shooting stuff from a range is their game, and for that you need a steady supply of cost efficient ammo.

[wish12oz]

Same reason why ninja's throwing shit never took off.

If you would read the thread, you would see 2 posts up I stated the real reason throwing never took off for ninja.

We need less misinformation regarding this topic, throwing didn't take off because it wasn't good, not because shurikens were hard to get.

[Mirage]

The good ones were!

[wish12oz]

The good ones were!

Good shurikens being hard to get has nothing to do with the fact that you lose 6+ attacks worth of damage and tp gain to throw 1 shuriken. The shuriken would need to do more damage then 6 attacks, and gain more tp then 6 attacks to even be useful, and guess what, they don't do that much. So regardless of difficulty to obtain, throwing was still terrible. Even if shurikens were added with 300 base damage, and cost 1gil/stack, it wouldn't be worth the inventory to carry them around or worth the loss of DPS to use them.

Here's the math:

Shurikens have a 192 delay.
Kannagi+Kamome have a combined (210+180) 390 delay. (this is what I use and is best ATM, so this is the delay we will use for purposes of mathing out delay)
When you hit the delay reduction cap of 80%, this becomes a new delay of 78.
78+78=156, you get slightly more then 2 melee attacks rounds per throw.(throwing delay is 192)
with apoc, /war, brutal, eponas you have triple attack+18%, double attack+18%, which means 54% of the time, you get an extra attack per melee round.
So at +54% melee attacks per round, every time you attack, you get 1 extra attack, because you attack twice every round.
you get slightly more then 2 attack rounds per throw, you get 3 attacks per round.
Your throwing damage needs to be slightly better then 6 melee attacks and give as much tp as 6 melee attacks to be on par with just meleeing.

25% gear haste, 50% DW, marchx2 and haste spell is all that's required to reach -80% delay btw~
Those things are also really easy to get on NIN.

[Miera]

I just don't get Synergy. Sure it is the best way to craft now but not many people have it leveled. Why? because you have to basically level every craft (lots of gil) to get it up there and even then I still don't understand Synergy........ Its too confusing. D:

[Greatguardian]

The biggest problem with Oberon's Bullets hasn't quite been addressed. Yes, it does require multiple synths (which sucks), and selling them as singles was popular early on (which also sucks), but all of the synthing would have been worth it for a Consumable market if it weren't for one thing:

Fool's Gold Ore only drops from Campaign Unions.

Yeah...

Fix ridiculously tedious/impossible to get materials and you'll fix (or at least considerably help) the ammunition market.

[Elexia]

SE's problem: Making Ammo synergy related.
Player's problem: Majority don't care for synergy.

Solution: Add NPCs that sell the damn Iron and Steel ammo. Even guildshops sell the level 22 Bullets, so the argument can't be it will kill the economy. The reason CORs don't shoot is..what do we use for ammo? Water balloons?

[Malamasala]

Here's the math:

Which just proves that throwing isn't bad, but haste is so terribly broken without a reasonable cap. At most you should do 3 attacks in the time it takes to throw a shuriken. Past that you are just breaking the game balance.

[Karbuncle]

Which just proves that throwing isn't bad, but haste is so terribly broken without a reasonable cap. At most you should do 3 attacks in the time it takes to throw a shuriken. Past that you are just breaking the game balance.

Technically it proves that Throwing is bad because of haste.

Are you suggesting we Nerf haste to give throwing a use ^^?

If not why argue.

[Mirage]

Stuff

Throwing not taking off isn't something that happened within the last year or two. There was a time in this game when ninjas didn't actually attack 500 times per second like now.

Who knows, had it been affordable from the beginning of, maybe more people would have liked it, leading to SE improving it more over the years. Seeing as historically no one bothered with it because it was like throwing solid gold bars at the enemies, it only makes sense that SE improved ninja's melee capabilities more than their ranged capabilities.

For the record, I'm not suggesting that we nerf haste. Trying to give nin a reason to use shuriken now is probably a lost cause, but if it was taken care of when the job was still young, it wouldn't necessarily have had to turn out that way.

[wish12oz]

Throwing not taking off isn't something that happened within the last year or two. There was a time in this game when ninjas didn't actually attack 500 times per second like now.

Who knows, had it been affordable from the beginning of, maybe more people would have liked it, leading to SE improving it more over the years. Seeing as historically no one bothered with it because it was like throwing solid gold bars at the enemies, it only makes sense that SE improved ninja's melee capabilities more than their ranged capabilities.

what is this i dont even............

Early in the game is the only time throwing is good and when it should be used. Up to lvl 40 throwing shurikens so badly outparses every other damage dealing aspect in the game. At 40 the NIN ni spells are a bit better I believe, but its been so long I forget now, a bit later it's back to throwing til you can get haste gear. And at low lvls, the shurikens sold by NPCs are pretty cheap! And ninjas always attacked super fast, it's just gotten 10% DW (af3+2 mask, and a job trait) and 0 or 4% haste since the introduction of abyssea. (depending on if you used the lvl 50 nin ring) Which is a lot, but not as much as people seem to think.

[Karbuncle]

Durpity

Agreed!

Also, Looking at the "new posts section", Does anyone but me feel like we've run off the Reps? I miss them.

[thefinalrune]

As a THF and a RNG, I can relate wholeheartedly. Between the high costs, the high synth requirements and the limited crafter base ammo has become ridiculous to obtain for any viable price. I really don't like having to spend 100k cruor on items to NPC just to afford a single stack of quivers of ammo. A single stack that I may in all likely-hood burn through before I earn that 100k cruor back.


Does anyone but me feel like we've run off the Reps? I miss them.
I imagine SE vastly under estimated the number and volume of responses and threads that would be made. The JP board is even worse, they have threads with thousands of replies sometimes. I honestly don't envy the job of the reps that have to read all the posts we make.

[Mirage]

what is this i dont even............

Early in the game is the only time throwing is good and when it should be used. Up to lvl 40 throwing shurikens so badly outparses every other damage dealing aspect in the game. At 40 the NIN ni spells are a bit better I believe, but its been so long I forget now, a bit later it's back to throwing til you can get haste gear. And at low lvls, the shurikens sold by NPCs are pretty cheap! And ninjas always attacked super fast, it's just gotten 10% DW (af3+2 mask, and a job trait) and 0 or 4% haste since the introduction of abyssea. (depending on if you used the lvl 50 nin ring) Which is a lot, but not as much as people seem to think.

Since abyssea, sure. How much more haste and DW can you have now, compared to for example what you could get in 2004-2005? And in addition to that, maybe didn't have both 2x march and haste spell at the same time.

Look, I'm not trying to argue that throwing is better or has been better for a very long time. Is it really so implausible that the evolution of the ninja job could have been a bit different if throwing was cheaper?

I never played nin back when it was new myself, I didn't even have the game until CoP came out. I do however know a few who were pretty pro nins, and they've told me throwing was good for "as long as you could afford it". Perhaps not in a max haste scenario, but there was (and still is, to a lesser degree) plenty of cases where you weren't at capped, or near capped haste.

So if this is completely wrong, well I guess my sources suck then.

[Romanova]

Early in the game is the only time throwing is good and when it should be used. Up to lvl 40 throwing shurikens so badly outparses every other damage dealing aspect in the game.

I think you're misunderstanding Mirage. Early in the game ie 2005 vs. levels 1-40.

You are 100% correct that throwing would be a huge dps loss at this point in time. Mirage is also 100% correct though that when nin was first introduced back in 2005(?) (forget the year, it's been awhile) no one used throwing because the shukirens were insanely expensive/hard to get. Back them iirc they did insane dps if they used them, but would cost way too much, so from the beginning that is why nin's didn't use throwing, but now it's changed that they don't use it because of dps loss.

Really, it doesn't matter either way. I'd rather not they buff throwing anyways because I spend enough on tools as it is. (and my poor inventory).

[Mirage]

Yeah, well according to the guy I've talked to, they didn't stop being good at 40. Now I can understand perfectly fine that they probably weren't worth it when you had a shitload of haste from support jobs, but that's not always. So i guess it was situational, like always!

[Romanova]

Yeah, well according to the guy I've talked to, they didn't stop being good at 40. Now I can understand perfectly fine that they probably weren't worth it when you had a shitload of haste from support jobs, but that's not always. So i guess it was situational, like always!

I think part of that too might have been misconception. Nin for the first few years were fulltime evasion, and it took quite awhile for some nins to start convincing others that they could be good in DD gear and still tank small stuff. Then it began transitioning to the haste gear.

Things like parsers really started to help them see what kind of dps they could actually do vs. what people were assuming they could do. Shurikens probably were doing bursts of dmg that eva nins couldn't do on their swings, but ya insanely expensive at that so just wasn't worth it.

[Machazareel]

It's not so much that they were exclusive to melee. You didn't just stand there spamming /shoot. Their use was in weaving them with melee, with rather precise timing, as decent amounts of haste were not an easy thing to come by in any way back then until you were already 75. Unfortunately, once you hit your mid-40s, availability of new shurikens had tapered off and the damage dealt by the ones obtainable was too low to be worthwhile. You get access to Fuma's at 60, but they were so ridiculously rare that they couldn't work. You were also beginning to fight higher eva mobs at that level range, like Torama's and such, and macro'ing in RA gear to get the shots to connect over and over again was like walking uphill in blizzard, particularly due to the fact that minor lag could cause the swaps to negatively affect your melee swings, thereby defeating the purpose.

Had we had more access to more shuriken upgrades, and far easier avenues of attaining them, along with sushi(Didn't have that back then, either D:!), their viability would have been maintained far longer, as the dps of properly executed shurikens was quite high.

[wish12oz]

Since abyssea, sure. How much more haste and DW can you have now, compared to for example what you could get in 2004-2005? And in addition to that, maybe didn't have both 2x march and haste spell at the same time.

Fumas, b haidate, speed belt, dusk gloves, w turban, lvl 50 4 haste ring = 25% gear haste. (26% haste listed in gear)
Remove the ring and add dusk+1 and you get 23%.
This is what was available with the release of ToA, in 2005? Before this you used panther mask+1 with was 3% haste instead of 5%.

DW traits at 75 are 30%, then you gain 10% from af1 body and suppanomimi.

Ninja gained no haste depending on setup, and 10% DW from another job trait and af3+2 hat, I already said that, you even quoted it.



I never played nin back when it was new myself, I didn't even have the game until CoP came out. I do however know a few who were pretty pro nins, and they've told me throwing was good for "as long as you could afford it". Perhaps not in a max haste scenario, but there was (and still is, to a lesser degree) plenty of cases where you weren't at capped, or near capped haste.

So if this is completely wrong, well I guess my sources suck then.

Meleeing beats throwing with nothing but gear haste and DW starting at 75.


I think you're misunderstanding Mirage. Early in the game ie 2005 vs. levels 1-40.


I actually went over how Ninja hasn't gained much haste/dw it has available to it since 2005.


no one used throwing because the shukirens were insanely expensive/hard to get.

Maybe our ideas of expensive and hard to get are different, because I didn't think they were expensive or hard to get.

[Romanova]

I actually went over how Ninja hasn't gained much haste/dw it has available to it since 2005.

I never said they didn't have access, just that the rule of thought at the time was to stack evasion.




Maybe our ideas of expensive and hard to get are different, because I didn't think they were expensive or hard to get.

It's possible, or also could be server differences. iirc 1 stack on Asura was about 100k~ at the time, which wasn't worth utilizing to most people.


Again, I'm not trying to say your wrong. Just that I remember then nin's weredefinitely complaining about them stating "they're too expensive I wish I could afford them" vs. "they aren't worth it 'cause their dps sucks".

As I said in my other post, some of those statements were definitely based of misconception from lack of parsers, vs. fact, however it does remain the same that people at that time didn't want to use them because of price, not because they thought it was a dps loss (even though it was proven otherwise at a later date.)


In other words, you need to separate what we know now vs. what we thought we knew then if we're going to talk about what nins thought then.

[Sparthos]

SE doesn't care about ranged people.

[Duelle]

The biggest problem with Oberon's Bullets hasn't quite been addressed. Yes, it does require multiple synths (which sucks), and selling them as singles was popular early on (which also sucks), but all of the synthing would have been worth it for a Consumable market if it weren't for one thing:

Fool's Gold Ore only drops from Campaign Unions.

Yeah...

Fix ridiculously tedious/impossible to get materials and you'll fix (or at least considerably help) the ammunition market.This. Most consumables are a pain as is because of the materials required. Feel bad for CORs and RNGs because of this clear flaw in design.

[noodles355]

Current ammo sucks to make - Multiple crafts or expensive/rare materials

The demmand for ammunition is very low - RNG has some serious design flaws. COR can be played as a PR/QD bitch only. Only die-hard COR and RNG play the jobs properly.

One of the problems with RNG and COR (One of the many for RNG) is the lack of available ammunition. This leads to less people playing the job. This further leads to even less demand for ammunition, which leads to even less being created. And it goes on.

It's a similar vicious cycle to why Ranger is continuing to not get a proper Fix. People have been driven away from the job - the cost is too high, the ammo is too difficult to obtain, the damage is sub-par, the benefit of outside-AoE damage is flawed. Because of this, hardly anyone plays it.

Rng is severly flawed > Hardly anyone plays it > Hardly anyone gives feedback to SE > SE don't realise there is a problem > SE doesn't fix Rng > Rng continues to be flawed > People continue to not play it > SE continue to not realise there is a problem.

The same is true for COR, but at least they can fallback on being a Phantom Roll bitch.

[Limecat]

I leveled the crafts on my mules for the sole purpose of providing myself with reasonably priced ammo. I'm not the type of player who can trip over a rock and uncover a million a week or whatever, so buying it on the AH was never a serious option.