Abyssea outside of Abyssea - Yay? [Archive]

Dijana

05-02-2011, 04:45 PM

Like others said, Im not anti-abyssea either. And like others said also, Im sorely disappointed by this too. When I first heard of voidwatch I was really looking forward to it, some new content NOT inside abyssea. Well..so much for that, guess we didnt really beat it after all.

Abyssea and most everything else implemented over the past year was a great change, but its all getting overused horribly. Magian trials an example for that. Like Tamoa said, wont be able to get to play some of my favourite jobs again, particularly with the proccing system, and unless they add new ones that cater to other jobs' uses, its going to be limited to mnk war nin thf blm blu whm again.

I guess on the upside there was that little note about the chests awarding different things to different players, so there wont be fighting over drops = not necessarily going for the smallest group?

Next they'll be announcing atmacites and such for dynamis too. Well, let me know when the next update comes around in a few months so I can see if there's going to be anything interesting in that one

Airget

05-02-2011, 04:46 PM

Yeah I guess it's still a bit early to get all /sadface, but my initial reaction wasn't a positive one. I'm the same as Ken, I'm not anti-abyssea, but I was hoping for something new and somewhat more challenging where people can't zombie any nm for hours and buffs don't make you 1shot a mob with 1 ws.

"
[3] Battling Voidwalkers
Each Voidwatch operation takes place at one of three predetermined “planar rifts,” weak points in the fabric of space. Enemy strength and spoils obtainable will not be affected by the choice of rift.

To spawn a Voidwalker and initiate battle, simply examine a planar rift while in possession of the requisite key items. Combatants have thirty minutes to dispatch their foe, after which time the Voidwalker will disappear and the operation will be deemed a failure.
*A single voidstone will be expended for all who possess one, and not only the character who initiated battle. While those without a voidstone can still participate, their reward will be limited to experience points and cruor."

Can't really hold mobs with a 30 minute time limit lol. Overall it does seem like it could be interesting though I do wonder what the wait time will be per stone. While it does have similarities to Abyssea those concepts are what allow the developers to create foes that may otherwise be impossible. IF done properly then the boost from atmacite we recieve may have to be used strategically in order to take foes which would be near impossible without a little boost.

It's also nice that they are allowing all forms of "point systems" to be redeemable within the system so those that may have Allied notes/conquest points/Imperial standing the opportunity to use them if they thought they had no more use for them. Though I would say that if the point value for each item is the same 1:1:1: then cruor would still have an overall advantage over the other 3 concepts unless each point system has unique "ascent" items which would bring some luster back into old zones if say the items from ToAU are more useful for what you need compared to what you can get with cruor.

Chocobits

05-02-2011, 05:02 PM

It might be too early to tell, as others have said. We might NOT be able to land Slow/Paralyze on the final bosses on naked WHM with no staff equipped. A BST with a full eva set might NOT be able to solo it down (although with JA procs, BST might be useful or necessary).

I wonder if the JA proc is SE's "fix" to PLD?

Tamarsamar

05-02-2011, 05:03 PM

I'm the last person to be skeptical or critical, but it is kind of shady to be taking cues from "a dying world."

Just saying . . .

Mirage

05-02-2011, 05:40 PM

I'm all for the ability to customize your character even further for specific fights, i just hope it won't be as extreme boosts as atmas give us.

Chiibi

05-02-2011, 05:45 PM

oh cmon guys, xD chances are this'll stop abyssea being so bloody overcamped xD

Tamoa

05-02-2011, 05:53 PM

"
Can't really hold mobs with a 30 minute time limit lol.

I didn't say that either, I think you know what I meant. Currently atmas make us invincible (or damn near it) in abyssea and anyone can gather a group of people and kill any nm. Wiping makes no difference (provided noone else claims the mob when it goes white). I was really hoping for something new where we wouldn't receive any status boosts, but where we would have to actually play smart.

Well, we'll just have to wait and see I guess.

Alukat

05-02-2011, 06:56 PM

damn once again with status bonus :(
if u can customize them u can make them the way to be overpowered again i guess :(

Skwigelf

05-02-2011, 08:36 PM

You guys saying abyssea is too easy or that atma's make you invincible realize that you can choose to not use atmas or cruor buffs, right?

Krisan

05-02-2011, 08:53 PM

You guys saying abyssea is too easy or that atma's make you invincible realize that you can choose to not use atmas or cruor buffs, right?
Dunno what LS you're in, but this was always mandatory business for the Linkshell's I Abyssea'd with. Not to mention the very nature of Abyssea being on a timer makes it impractical to try and fight the bigger NM's without the buffs and atma. In other words, the system was designed in such a way where you're forced to use this stuff more often than not. If Abyssea weren't on a timer or if there were more realistic goals to be achieved within it without the buffs, fewer people would probably be bitching.

Likewise, people are bitching about this because it appears to be a rehash of the same thing. Including being kept on a leash by a timer. You just know that these buffs are going to be necessary to kill some of this stuff fast enough. (Whether or not it could be killed without them is not the issue as much as killing them before they despawn.)

Andylynn

05-02-2011, 09:01 PM

So I waited breathlessly for the update, as you all have. I hoped there would be a light at the end of the tunnel for an end to the Abyssea crutch we've been hobbling around on.

And with tonight's Voidwatch updated info.. does anyone else feel like quitting the game? All new content has been forsaken for the mindless proc'ing system already present in Abyssea. Even the naming conventions lack originality. "Atmacite"?

So.. is FFXI going to stop charging like FFXIV until content emerges? Just curious.

Why complain? You're getting new content for a NINE YEAR OLD MMO; on the market we call those dinosaurs, we should be glad SE even considers pumping life through the veins of the game still. You list off mindless prejudice to a system that resembles what we've been used to for the past year or so, and instead of welcoming some comfort in familiarity, you complain about it being 'unoriginal?' Get off your high horse.

Krisan

05-02-2011, 09:16 PM

Why complain? You're getting new content for a NINE YEAR OLD MMO; on the market we call those dinosaurs, we should be glad SE even considers pumping life through the veins of the game still.
I honestly don't personally care. I never liked Abyssea too much, and I was hoping for something a bit different here, but meh. I'm happy enough with the game as it is.

Also, eh.. Older MMO's are still kicking it. I think Ultima Online itself got a new expansion no more than last year or so. Unless something horribly awry goes wrong or everyone just stops playing indefinitely, I imagine SE will continue supporting this game for a good many more years yet. (Admittedly, I imagine they wanted XIV to take over for XI so they could phase out updates, but that didn't go so well and XIV's success is still in question.)

Alukat

05-02-2011, 10:03 PM

Mirage

05-02-2011, 10:12 PM

>dynamis
>fun

Kensagaku

05-02-2011, 10:20 PM

Eh I dunno, I kinda like Xarc. And the Dreamlands areas are unique in their own ways too that make them interesting. The cities? No. The word fun is antithesis to Dynamis when it comes to cities. =(

Urteil

05-02-2011, 10:23 PM

Old doesn't equal crap.

Crap management does.

Greatguardian

05-02-2011, 10:47 PM

Why complain? You're getting new content for a NINE YEAR OLD MMO; on the market we call those dinosaurs, we should be glad SE even considers pumping life through the veins of the game still. You list off mindless prejudice to a system that resembles what we've been used to for the past year or so, and instead of welcoming some comfort in familiarity, you complain about it being 'unoriginal?' Get off your high horse.

You're... kidding, right? Dinosaurs? "On the market"? Have you never heard of Everquest, or Ultima Online? Hell, Ultima Online is going on 14-15 years old and they just got a new expansion (including a new playable race, brah) in Sept '09. No, you get off your high sock- I mean high horse.

Runespider

05-02-2011, 11:41 PM

Why complain? You're getting new content for a NINE YEAR OLD MMO; on the market we call those dinosaurs, we should be glad SE even considers pumping life through the veins of the game still. You list off mindless prejudice to a system that resembles what we've been used to for the past year or so, and instead of welcoming some comfort in familiarity, you complain about it being 'unoriginal?' Get off your high horse.

Don't you pay a subscription fee for this "dinosaur"? Isn't that sub the same as any other MMO's out there?

Updates are not presents, if they stop updating this game they will lose the monthly subs this game gets. 100-200k users is nothing to scoff at, even moreso on a game with a loyal playerbase and that's already paid for itself.

Elexia

05-02-2011, 11:49 PM

Really depressing, so we finally get new content outside abyssea and they just make it abyssea.

Lol, it's all people want now, so it's not depressing nor shocking since the majority of the people said "it'll be impossible to top Abyssea, especially in terms of XP gain."

So why top it when you can continue it?

Karbuncle

05-02-2011, 11:58 PM

the "Atmacites" may not be as broken as Atmas, and furthermore maybe we won't get 3 of them lol >___>. This System strikes me more similar to ANNM that anything else, outside of the buffs.

I'm a little peeved at the "Stone" wait again, but every piece of new content lately has had limitations. even old ones. Assaults? Tags. Salvage? See Assault, Nyzul? See Assault, Einherjar? Day wait. Dynamis? 3 Days, etc etc. Stones are probably their way of Limiting content without it just being "hur hur way 2 days".

I don't think this will be as easy as we think, Especially what with not being able to Brew them either. A lot of problems on "Easy mode" Came from 200k Brews (I should say, "Furthering").

I think this System could have been better, but i also think its really great as is. They're introducing the "Stagger" system again, People will have some control over drops, I liked that system. The Chest at the end rewarding each person differently Is nice, but its a double-edged sword.

On one hand, Everyone is rewarded, on the other, If stuff is "EX" it can't be traded, Someone might get something they can't use, and so on. It could cause further problems that the idea of "Rewarding everyone" meant to solve.

Oh Well, I look forward to this update for a lot of reasons, this will definitely be fun to try out.

Shibayama

05-03-2011, 12:00 AM

Hey...

Hey guys. I have an Idea...

Why don't we like, wait to see what the actual content is like before assuming it sucks.

For all we know, voidwatch favors completely different strategy, jobs and concepts than abyssea and despite having an "atma" of sorts, might not be quite as easy.

Just don't expect to find argus or morbolger unclaimed anymore now.

Karbuncle

05-03-2011, 12:02 AM

On the topic of Staggers as well, It shows apparently a MNK chi-blasting and getting yellow, So theres a high chance that the stagger system is completely revamped >___>

Anewie

05-03-2011, 12:21 AM

One undeniable fact: SE isn't spending much of any money on development. This system, although sounds a little different, is just recycliing abbyssea stuff.

/quit

Elexia

05-03-2011, 12:26 AM

One undeniable fact: SE isn't spending much of any money on development. This system, although sounds a little different, is just recycliing abbyssea stuff.

/quit

Every MMO recycles resources, even in rl resources are recycled, may as well quit life too.

Karbuncle

05-03-2011, 12:36 AM

One undeniable fact: SE isn't spending much of any money on development. This system, although sounds a little different, is just recycliing abbyssea stuff.

/quit

While i would like to first say, i Hope you enjoy life in the real world, Where the exact same type of things go on. I must add something to your statement.

Firstly, You seem to be overreacting a little.

The content coming our way says if anything they're trying to develop content they feel the majority of the player base will enjoy. Currently most of the people who hate abyssea/etc have already quit, So they come to think the people who enjoy abyssea are still playing, to cater to them.

This new content looks more like "We're giving you an ANNM/VNM like system, with a dash of Abyssea". It doesn't look like they're "breaking" it as much as Abyssea did, It looks like they're trying to maintain a balance. We won't know until the content is out.

Really, Almost every system in place is mimic/improvement on another system in some way. Abyssea really just felt like a 1-up of the "Shantoto Ascension" Final fight, where you collect the items and your stats were super-boosted. This system as i said feels more like ANNM/VNM with Abyssean touch. it all depends on how broken/not broken/etc the Atmacites are.

Hopefully they maintain a balance.

On top of that its a minimum of 6 people, so you don't have to deal with "Duo WHM/MNK" groups anymore (Which a lot of people complained about for some reason, even though half those "MNK+WHM" Duos could kill a mob 8x as fast as their crappy port-jeuno shout pick up alliance).

Andylynn

05-03-2011, 12:52 AM

You're... kidding, right? Dinosaurs? "On the market"? Have you never heard of Everquest, or Ultima Online? Hell, Ultima Online is going on 14-15 years old and they just got a new expansion (including a new playable race, brah) in Sept '09. No, you get off your high sock- I mean high horse.

And this contributes, counters, or supports anything how? Irrelevant post from an equally irrelevant poster. Go back under your bridge.

Karbuncle

05-03-2011, 01:00 AM

And this contributes, counters, or supports anything how? Irrelevant post from an equally irrelevant poster. Go back under your bridge.

It contributes more to the conversation that rearing your head only to insult someone once in a blue moon. If you're going to be unproductive, at the very least refrain for insults in your posts.

Kensagaku

05-03-2011, 01:02 AM

And this contributes, counters, or supports anything how? Irrelevant post from an equally irrelevant poster. Go back under your bridge.

Let me quote part of your own statement here.

You're getting new content for a NINE YEAR OLD MMO; on the market we call those dinosaurs, we should be glad SE even considers pumping life through the veins of the game still.

You're stating, though indirectly, that an older MMO shouldn't keep going, that most companies leave them on the wayside because of their age. He's simply counteracting that point by saying that there are games that have been out far longer and are still continuing to this day. Therefore it is not an irrelevant point. Rather than pulling a Krystal and calling troll, why don't we just keep on topic, yes?

--------------

That aside, let me stay on topic as well to avoid a derail. There's two things that are really going to determine the quality of this new section, in my eyes:

1) Atmacite/Peripts - Currently these sound like the non-abyssea equivalents of Atma/Abyssites based on their descriptions. Depending on how over/underpowered they are they could influence the balance of the system and will likely determine whether or not we're getting another easy mode once we obtain them. If they can give reasonable boosts without going overboard (I'm looking at you, Razed Ruins!) then we should be set to go. Let's just hope they're not overpowered or too underwhelming; the latter is more acceptable because it means we can win on strategy and teamwork rather than just being uber-adventurers.

2) Rewards! - Of course this is what we're going to be all about. Are the rewards going to be particularly spectacular, to compare to their Abyssea counterparts? I'm sure there will be some unique and useful pieces, but for the most part each job's AF3+1/2 tends to fill up most slots quite nicely in different circumstances, making us wonder just what the next level of "good gear" will be like. Hopefully it's something we'll enjoy and get to strive hard for!

Anewie

05-03-2011, 02:02 AM

Runespider

05-03-2011, 02:02 AM

In Voidwatch, bands of six to eighteen members will square off against “Voidwalkers,” savage entities that have breached planar bounds to invade multiple landscapes spanning past and present.

Something I don't quite get about this, they increased the level cap and stated it was because they wanted to allow people to do events with far less people. Now they make a big event that excludes low-man groups. Not that i'm against it but they need to decide exactly which way they are going.#

Oh and PLEASE don't make people do this by making them requirments for relic/emp/mythic trials, that would be truely sadistic.

Karbuncle

05-03-2011, 02:09 AM

@ Elexia and Karbuncle, Those are stupid examples in my opinion.

If you played FFXI as long as I have you are missing one indeniable fact aboout the current state of ffxi: choice and variety.

We're not even level 99 yet. There is still a lot of content ready to be released.

I'm sorry but your actions feel a bit premature. Back when we first hit 75 what was there to do? Sky? Dynamis? Ground-kings? Thats it if i recall. All of those systems sucked back then too. Anyone remember Ullikummi? Mr. 1hour~20 hour random-fk Window? I do.

We're in a transition period, They're releasing content in waves. When we hit 99 I'm betting you there will be a lot of Variety. It took SE nearly 5 years to give us the "Variety" we had before ~76+ Came around.

ToAU introduced a lot of the "Variety" in small Quantities. First Assaults, Eventually ISNMs, Salvage, Einherjar, Etc all came very spread out over time. Same can be said for a lot of content.

You're getting upset because we don't have 20 different Systems in place for yes, "Mid level" Content. You're acting as if you expect us to have dozens of different events to readily go too, when it took SE years, YEARS, to release that much content for level 75 cap. You're asking the impossible.

Now, If we hit level 99 and theres no variety, you have every right to complain, But as it stands, You're judging a game and quitting thanks to a transition period.

There is likely to be less content in a transition, but by the time we hit 99 and SE can completely focus on providing true "End-game" Content, I'm sure we will have the variety we seek eventually. it takes time.

Oh, As a Side, note, I've been playing since NA Release, I know the hardships this game has gone through, but i also know to stick it out because its a fun enjoyable experience and a brighter side is generally around the corner.

Anewie

05-03-2011, 02:20 AM

We're not even level 99 yet. There is still a lot of content ready to be released.

I'm sorry but your logic is a little flawed. Back when we first hit 75 what was there to do? Sky? Dynamis? Ground-kings? Thats it if i recall. All of those systems sucked back then too. Anyone remember Ullikummi? Mr. 1hour~20 hour random-fk Window? I do.

We're in a transition period, They're releasing content in waves. When we hit 99 I'm betting you there will be a lot of Variety. It took SE nearly 5 years to give us the "Variety" we had before ~76+ Came around.

ToAU introduced a lot of the "Variety" in small Quantities. First Assaults, Eventually ISNMs, Salvage, Einherjar, Etc all came very spread out over time. Same can be said for a lot of content.

You're getting upset because we don't have 20 different Systems in place for yes, "Mid level" Content.

If we hit level 99 and theres no variety, you have every right to complain, But as it stands, You're judging a game and quitting thanks to a transition period.

Oh, As a Side, note, I've been playing since NA Release, I know the hardships this game has gone through, but i also know to stick it out because its a fun enjoyable experience and a brighter side is generally around the corner.

I like the way you post. You come correct and I can respect that, but i will also respectfully disagree that sky/dynamis/HNM were anything near compared to abyssea. I was very active in all those events and I'm a 8 year player. Those events back then, were very hefty. Those 3 events offered more content that was much more hefty and engaging, that kept you hooked for a long time. Those events offered more content then the 9 abyssea zones combined. Granted the whole system was based off luck, still, It ws never boring imo.

I'm not "upset" over a game. Yes, as i said, I wont judge until it's implimented.

You do make a very good point that the game is unfinished at this point. That's very true but FFXIV is SE's priority, not ffxi. FFXI is funding final fantasy XIV. The amount of money put into dev. team for ffxi is im sure, substantially less than xiv. I guess I was jus hoping for some "heart" put into this event. It feels like theyre just trying to keep us amused until XIV is revived.

Don't want to spread too much butt-hurt because it's pointless. I also don't want to give the impression i hate abyssea. There are things i hate about it, but It's a good event.

Karbuncle

05-03-2011, 02:26 AM

I like the way you post. You come correct and I can respect that, but i will also respectfilly disagree that sky/dynamis/HNM were anything near compared to abyssea. I was very active in all those events and I'm a 8 year player and Those events back then, were very hefty. Those 3 events offered content that was much more hefty and engaging that kept you hooked for a long time. Granted the whole system was based off luck, still, It ws never boring imo.

I'm not "upset" over a game. Yes, as i said, I wont judge until it's implimented.

You do make a very good point that the game is unfinished at this point. That's very true but FFXIV is SE's priority, not ffxi. FFXI is funding final fantasy XIV. The amount of money put into dev. team for ffxi is im sure, substantially less than xiv. I guess I was jus hoping for some "heart" put into this event. It feels like theyre just trying to keep us amused until XIV is revived.

Don't want to spread too much butt-hurt because it's pointless. I also don't want to give the impression i hate abyssea. There are things i hate about it, but It's a good event.

Well, If you do so enjoy the game as is, You really should not quit over a Transition.

I truly believe by 99 we will have that variety again. Abyssea may simply be 1 Event, but it offers so much more than Dynamis, Sky, and Kings offered combined. Its Friendly casual content for all players to enjoy, it has good systems in place. While it has its flaws, So did the old 75 systems.

Dynamis had terrible drop rates, was boring and repetitive. Sky was awful because it was over-run with RMT, and camping against 20 other linkshells for 1 Pop NM was awful too. Kings, I won't even touch, for fear one of the King's White knights will come in and tell me it was the bestest system ever and bots were cool.

Abyssea has some of those flaws of the old systems, but it works and they're less apparent. (I can name 1, Still have free-roaming NMs, But they have shorter spawns now).

If you love the game so much you've played for so long, You really shouldn't quit simply because of this transitional period. When we hit 99, Give it a couple updates, If we dont have any meaningful content, I'd drop the game like its hot too.

I don't deny FFXIV is getting a lot of the DEV attention, But i think when FFXIV gets off its feet, or dies horribly, FFXI will begin to get attention again. Its really hard to tell right now. But i've stuck with FFXI through worse...

Greatguardian

05-03-2011, 02:28 AM

The biggest difference between old sky/sea/dynamis and Abyssea now is the fact that players, as a whole, have learned significantly more about how the game works. That in and of itself is the biggest reason that Sky/Sea/Dynamis became so much easier even at the 75 cap than they were in the past. Now that we know how Game Mechanics work, how NMs work, and generally have access to more gear/jobs per player, all content is going to be easier and cleared more quickly and efficiently.

All in all, there is significantly less to do in Sky than in even a single Visions Abyssea zone (aside from running). There are 8 Trigger NMs, 4 Shijin, and Kirin. Altogether 13 NMs, 3 overlapping zones, and a surface area about twice the size of La Theine Plateau. Sky was a mess of mandatory time sinks (sup pre-and-post-patch Ulli and Despot), bottlenecking (long repop non-instanced ???s, Aura Statues), and poor drop rates (hi Quake scroll Kirin). I would hardly call it engaging. I think I slept more in sky than anything else.

Malamasala

05-03-2011, 02:37 AM

Those 3 events offered more content that was much more hefty and engaging, that kept you hooked for a long time. Those events offered more content then the 9 abyssea zones combined. Granted the whole system was based off luck, still, It ws never boring imo.

Nothing was fun pre-abyssea unless you played a bandwagon job. I didn't, which is why I can't relate to anyone who enjoyed that period.

Kensagaku

05-03-2011, 02:37 AM

I agree with a bit of both sides at the moment. We don't know what's coming at 99, exactly. We saw some of the notes, showing new mobs and what could possibly be a new area. Perhaps a new storyline is awaiting our patience! There is all sorts of possibilities that could come at 99, though at this point is where I agree with Anewie. We do get that feeling of sort of being led on a bit until they give us some snazzy new non-transition material. Again we don't know what is coming at 99, but at the same time it doesn't help if they discourage us with half-hearted content before then!

I also agree that level 75 EG had a lot more to it. Sky had four major Gods and Kirin to focus on, which required a system of NMs that did take at least some minor shots at strategy in order to defeat. Brigandish Blade was a good example of this; you had to steal a knife from it in order to kill it!

Then there was Sea, a system of powerful NMs that each had their own strengths and weaknesses, that led up to the Jailer of Love and then the then-undefeatable Absolute Virtue. It was a goal worth striving towards! Limbus came as well, providing access to Proto-Omega and Proto-Ultima, though I feel there wasn't much of a reason behind going after these guys sans the gear; it was like... how did we just happen to stumble upon Limbus, and how did we end up finding that one person who was looking for Ultima/Omega parts? Either way, it provided lots of material.

ZNMs/Nyzul/Assault provided us with a lot of different things to do, with missions and goals in order to obtain a variety of rewards. And let's not forget Salvage back in its hey-day; there was a lot of work and strategy involved in your team setups back then.

Point being that "EG" content so far has been rather... lackluster after the first little bit of Abyssea. I'll continue to hope that we'll get some nice stuff when we're out of the transition phase though!

Edit @ Mala: What's the difference between that and Abyssea? The only thing that's different is that the new bandwagon is WAR/THF/NIN/MNK/WHM/BLM/BRD/BLU. Red/blue procer, tanks, and yellow procers. If anything the bandwagon's still there...

Mittenz

05-03-2011, 02:39 AM

Karbuncle

05-03-2011, 02:47 AM

Snip.

You're usually good at Reading Ken :|.

I addressed that. Yes 75 had more endgame, but all the endgame took nearly 5-6 years to come out. When we first hit 75, there wa Sky, Dynamis, and Ground Kings. All of those awful. Enjoyable thanks to "Nostalgia vision", but awful in practice. but its all we had.

Over the years Sea, Salvage, Einherjar, Assaults, Etc all were release, but this did take years to achieve. Right now theres not a lot of variety because we aren't technically @ "Endgame" yet. Think of it right now as, We're level 90, but the cap is going to be 99, So compare it to what was available to do at level 65 back when the cap was transitioning to 75?

I can't think of ANYTHING, maybe Simurgh/Roc/King Arhtro >__>?

The point i'm trying to make it, Endgame didn't happen over night back at 75, And its not going to happen over night right now. When we hit 99, Its going to take time to implement a lot of new meaningful end-game content, but i think it will come. expecting us to have Dozens of Diverse meaningful events in a transition of 76~99 is unrealistic at best.

Even if they did release dozens of diverse meaningful content for 80, 85, 90, and 95, It would likely be doomed to be crap by 99 anyway, Similar to Sky, Dynamis, Sea, Einherjar, and Etc are right now (Outside of a few select pieces still).

UGH im trying not to sound dick-ish but its not working :(

Either way, What i'm trying to say, In fewer words is, Diversity takes time. Old FF75-shit took nearly 5 years to completely give us Diverse meaningful equipment, and that was after we had initialized 75 as the "Cap". Right now we're not even at the cap, We just need to wait it out. (or not, Can always quit and come back when we're 99)

Septimus

05-03-2011, 03:19 AM

Where can I purchase a pair of FFXI Nostalgia Goggles?

People complain about Abyssea that there are "only 7 useful jobs anymore" as if this is a new phenomena. Back in the RotZ/early CoP days, the only useful DD was Ranger. Then Ranger got nerfed and a bunch of people ragequit, the new go-to DD job was BLM. Then in ToAU they added mobs that were resistant to elemental magic, so Summoner became the new flavor of the month. Then people decided that those mobs weren't worth fighting, so WAR and SAM became the prettiest girls at the prom. Then Souleater zerging was all the rage, now Dark Knight is the popular one! (Yes yes, let's all talk to Dark Knight.) Then Souleater zerging countermeasures were added to new NMs, do Dark Knight took a seat with Zoidberg in a corner and SAM was back in front. Now with Abyssea, MNK is the awesome-sauce.

There is a trend, people will find the most powerful job and use it. This is a natural reaction to a game with a flexible job system and limited time and resources. Why spend 30 minutes killing a mob when you can do it in 10? You might as well get into a time machine and yell at Henry Ford for inventing the assembly line, most people are going to tend towards efficiency.

BTW, so far Voidwatch sounds awesome and I am greatly looking forward to it. My only potential complaint is that there are only going to be three planar rifts in each zone. Beyond that, bring on the Atmacite and Periapt!

ShadowHeart

05-03-2011, 03:32 AM

Abyssea meets RIFT XD

wish12oz

05-03-2011, 03:38 AM

I'm all for increasing player strength through buffs, because that just means you can make mobs harder.

I also really like abyssea, and think it's fine, and hope to see razed ruins return for this new system.

Chocobits

05-03-2011, 03:42 AM

We pay a subscription for content. We aren't receiving content any more. That's why I asked if SE will stop charging us and make FFXI f2p.

Now, as far as content goes, Abyssea could have been great. And here's where it failed: Gear was too strong. Atmas are too strong. Abyssites are too strong. Even the brew is too strong. If all of the above were drastically lowered, I think Abyssea would become content that was mildly challenging. Opting not to use atmas is the same as opting not to equip gear. It's just not a bright decision. Nor was it a bright move on SE's part to introduce equipment and buffs that powerful. Let's take the Brew for instance. Could we make brew a 400%~ increase to stats. That way Gimpy Mcgimp all pink thf with a ceremonial dagger can't solo crap.

The new junk coming out is just regurgitated Abyssea fecal matter that erodes personal skill and the achievement of acquiring uber gear in favor of everyone being equal by way of AF3/Atma. Equip those and a few emp weapons and the "mightiest" Abyssea bosses will tumble to the wimpiest of LS. And so it will be with Voidwatch. The "C'mon guyz wait it out it might not be Abyssea" camp needs to leave this thread. It is Abyssea -1, it WILL suck and I am offended by it.

Until we "fix" AF3, Atmas, Abyssite, Brews, and for chrissakes /delete the full Aurore set, I'm tired of seeing it, then the game will continue to exist in a psuedo-zombie state where player skill and equipment don't mean jack and everyone mindlessly grinds through their force pops, grumbling about Heqet and Guka being bottlenecks and not realizing that they're replaced camping their Kings for hours with camping a worthless frog.

Kensagaku

05-03-2011, 03:45 AM

You didn't read even though you really did. :|.

Actually I did read that, and I respect that it took time to reach that diversity. There was a lot of work behind each and every event, and as a result they have their transition times. I acknowledged that; after all, we can't have everything right now just 'cause we want it (and if I said otherwise I'd be a hypocrite for all the arguments against the "want it now" crowd.). The problem is that Abyssea's unfortunately growing stale. There's very little we haven't conquered without difficulty; sure, there are a few annoyingly tricky NMs that can take time to beat (I'm lookin' at you, Apademak, with people who don't know wtf a stun cycle is. ;~; ) but for the most part we're just starting to lose a bit of interest.

While I appreciate that SE is working hard in this transition phase to create content to keep us satisfied for working up to the 99 cap, at the same time... it almost appears as though there's minimal effort in this recycle. Most times when things are recycled they're prettied up to look new and semi-original. So far, the battlefield teaser reeks of a rehash. Again like it's been stated we can't really complain until we've seen and experienced, it's just feeling a bit... half-hearted, like I said.

Blah. Lots of circular complaints on my end. I'm not usually a big complainer on content, so I'm really just hoping this transition stuff proves me wrong. There's a reason I'm off soloing sky and sea on my BST out of boredom when I don't feel like Abyssea. xD

(Well that and I need Zenith gear for a BLM Sorc Ring HP- set. *cough*)

wish12oz

05-03-2011, 03:53 AM

I hate abyssea and like old stuff

Most people like the current system more then the old one. I for one like the fact that all my friends can get everything and have access to everything, and we can do it together in small groups, and that I don't need to be part of a terrible LS and use bots and things to get gear. Especially since most of those LS's basically just worked towards getting the leaders stuff.

Karbuncle

05-03-2011, 04:00 AM

Actually I did read that, and I respect that it took time to reach that diversity. There was a lot of work behind each and every event, and as a result they have their transition times. I acknowledged that; after all, we can't have everything right now just 'cause we want it (and if I said otherwise I'd be a hypocrite for all the arguments against the "want it now" crowd.). The problem is that Abyssea's unfortunately growing stale. There's very little we haven't conquered without difficulty; sure, there are a few annoyingly tricky NMs that can take time to beat (I'm lookin' at you, Apademak, with people who don't know wtf a stun cycle is. ;~; ) but for the most part we're just starting to lose a bit of interest.

While I appreciate that SE is working hard in this transition phase to create content to keep us satisfied for working up to the 99 cap, at the same time... it almost appears as though there's minimal effort in this recycle. Most times when things are recycled they're prettied up to look new and semi-original. So far, the battlefield teaser reeks of a rehash. Again like it's been stated we can't really complain until we've seen and experienced, it's just feeling a bit... half-hearted, like I said.

Blah. Lots of circular complaints on my end. I'm not usually a big complainer on content, so I'm really just hoping this transition stuff proves me wrong. There's a reason I'm off soloing sky and sea on my BST out of boredom when I don't feel like Abyssea. xD

(Well that and I need Zenith gear for a BLM Sorc Ring HP- set. *cough*)

Maybe, It might be because i'm thinking more like "this is mid game content". So i compare what we're getting now, to what players had at level 50~74, and count my blessings.

I think even with this update there will be more to chose from. Even with its "Similarities" to other content. Theres only so many ways to spin "Kill this big monster".

The KCNM's are going to be an ice addition, the Adjustments to Dynamis/HNMs will keep people entertained a little (I know I'm waiting on Dynamis, Im @ stage 3 for Mandau and I'm wanting to finish it :|)

Abyssea, While only 1 Event, has a lot to offer. Multiple various NMs, a good system in place for drops (The "!!" System), fair repop timers, etc. It offers a lot but yah, i agree, getting kinda burned out on it myself.

I think these new systems will be a nice change of pace, even if its similar, i think it'll be different enough to entertain people.

If anything, I know i'll be in dynamis until i get my Mandau :X

Elexia

05-03-2011, 04:48 AM

@ Elexia and Karbuncle, Those are stupid examples in my opinion.
If you played FFXI as long as I have you are missing one indeniable fact aboout the current state of ffxi: choice and variety.

I played since JP beta. The current state of FFXI is quite different from 9 years ago. I couldn't care less for Abyssea but it's very hard to deny that the game was going to end up revolving around it based on how crazy everyone is for it.

Abyssea meets RIFT XD

Rift copied XI technically.

Leonlionheart

05-03-2011, 05:20 AM

Catering to casual players is where the gaming industry makes it's money, it's not hard to see that SE is a corporation and its goal is to make money, not to make the handful of truly hardcore players happy.

That being said, and being able to play the game for at least 6 hours a day, I like having Atma.

Everyone dances around the issue though, which isn't how strong the players are but how UTTERLY WEAK and/or STUPIDLY SCRIPTED the enemies are. EVERY SINGLE BOSS NM(glavoid chloris ecentric eve sobek etc) IS INCREDIBLY EASY, and can be done with less than 4. Even in heroes the only really hard bosses are Rani, Raja, Pankotrator and Apademak, maybe Azdaja to an unprepared group. And the only reason those NMs are remotely difficult is because Pankotrator can Chainspell -ga III, Rani can kill everyone within 25' with 1 meteor, and if you don't stun Apademak you're royally screwed with a 5+ second stun and a retardedly potent paralyze.

PLD doesn't suck because the Job sucks, the job is perfectly fantastic. PLD sucks because everyone else can do it's job with a WHM with relative ease. If we had challenging battles, however, PLD would find it's place again.

TL;DR: Everyone reads atma and thinks "easy" because obviously things are easier with atma than without. But its not atma that causes the relative ease of everything abyssea, it's the easy monsters.

Starcade

05-03-2011, 06:35 AM

So.. is FFXI going to stop charging like FFXIV until content emerges? Just curious.

You're effectively supporting the Gamma Test of FF XIV until they either start charging or shut down as it is -- why would they do that?

hiko

05-03-2011, 06:38 AM

yeah its nice to see that SE still adds new stuff to FFxi. but i hope that in future updates they stop with this atma crap.
and they should stop with that u have to kill only 1 NM to get the drop.
still doing nyzle isle,dynamis,limbus. and that's much more fun as abyssea.
yes needing up to kill 50+ times the same monster for 1 item is fun!

e

I also agree that level 75 EG had a lot more to it. Sky had four major Gods and Kirin to focus on, which required a system of NMs that did take at least some minor shots at strategy in order to defeat. Brigandish Blade was a good example of this; you had to steal a knife from it in order to kill it!

it's not really different than needing to use X WS to get next tier NM pop KI

TL;DR: Everyone reads atma and thinks "easy" because obviously things are easier with atma than without. But its not atma that causes the relative ease of everything abyssea, it's the easy monsters.

atma only make things lower manable: remove atmas, add RDM and 3 buffer to your mnk(nin) + whm duo and you can kill it

Ravenmore

05-03-2011, 06:54 AM

All the old content was dieing long before abyssea. You could go to sky and every pop set NM was up. Salvage was a failed event for most of the player base why go though the hell of getting 3 drops with insanly low drop rates then have to spend mils to upgrade them. I stop bothering with it as soon as they released AF2/af+1 for blu as did half my group.

Nothing in the game ever needed that much skill. What did we do in sky when Big bird chainspell, had either a rdm chainspell stun or rng shadow bind everyone run out of range. Dyn Lord 2 or 3 rdms doing the same thing chainspell stun and melees zerg it down. Kirin kite around the room with melees chaseing it to chip away its HP or couple of Drks using a weapon thats been in the game since CoP and JAs thats been in just aslong.

Sky could be opened up in a day Sea/Limbus could be done in a month if every one had all the jobs needed for the perfect set up. Thats the other thing all the CoP fights had little to do with skill but more with taking the right jobs. ToAU only real road block was all the JP midnight waits, with all of its endgame opening after the first few missions. No need to even finish it till the new avtars were released and if you didn't have Smn some half way decent gear.

Ravenmore

05-03-2011, 06:57 AM

One other thing you didn't have to steal the knife to kill Brigandish Blade just land one hit with it on.

Kensagaku

05-03-2011, 06:59 AM

Because most people waste an inventory slot keeping one handy when you usually had someone /THF or main THF for TH. I always tried to out-steal the THFs on BLU/THF for fun 'cause I was mostly cannonball spamming at that time. XD

Andylynn

05-03-2011, 07:21 AM

It contributes more to the conversation that rearing your head only to insult someone once in a blue moon. If you're going to be unproductive, at the very least refrain for insults in your posts.
It contributes nothing, OP makes a whiny overraction thread to content he hasn't played, only to criticize it's unoriginal, and worth quitting over. That is slightly ridiculous and unproductive, as are half the posts/threads in this forum: his included.

You're stating, though indirectly, that an older MMO shouldn't keep going, that most companies leave them on the wayside because of their age. He's simply counteracting that point by saying that there are games that have been out far longer and are still continuing to this day. Therefore it is not an irrelevant point. Rather than pulling a Krystal and calling troll, why don't we just keep on topic, yes?
I'm stating exactly what my original post stated, he should be lucky they are still keeping the game going after so long in a world where every year something bigger and shinier comes out. Has nothing to do with 'mmos after x amount of time should quit updating' and nothing within those words says it; all the ass does is sits here on these forums in an attempt to troll, call you wrong, or generally be an ass about things. Reading comprehension, one needs it.

Karbuncle

05-03-2011, 07:23 AM

It contributes nothing, OP makes a whiny overraction thread to content he hasn't played, only to criticize it's unoriginal, and worth quitting over. That is slightly ridiculous and unproductive, as are half the posts/threads in this forum: his included.

I'm stating exactly what my original post stated, he should be lucky they are still keeping the game going after so long in a world where every year something bigger and shinier comes out. Has nothing to do with 'mmos after x amount of time should quit updating' and nothing within those words says it; all the ass does is sits here on these forums in an attempt to troll, call you wrong, or generally be an ass about things. Reading comprehension, one needs it.

Again, I agree the entire principle behind this thread is just more whining, But if you don't want to contribute (Debating it, or agreeing with it) Simply don't reply.

Replying with an Insult to someone usually resorts in a report anyway :\.

Its okay to say your opinion, But you shouldn't just say "you're an idiot".

Kensagaku

05-03-2011, 07:23 AM

I'm stating exactly what my original post stated, he should be lucky they are still keeping the game going after so long in a world where every year something bigger and shinier comes out. Has nothing to do with 'mmos after x amount of time should quit updating' and nothing within those words says it; all the ass does is sits here on these forums in an attempt to troll, call you wrong, or generally be an ass about things. Reading comprehension, one needs it.

You're doing anything better than trolling? Of all the people here, two of the most informative and polite posters I've seen are GreatGuardian and Karbuncle, and you're practically spitting on both. Both of them provide a lot of knowledge and insight on a number of the game's aspects, while you do nothing more than occasionally pop up to tell someone they're wrong or to insult them.

Lookin' for a troll? Look in the mirror.

Andylynn

05-03-2011, 07:24 AM

You're doing anything better than trolling? Of all the people here, two of the most informative and polite posters I've seen are GreatGuardian and Karbuncle, and you're practically spitting on both. Both of them provide a lot of knowledge and insight on a number of the game's aspects, while you do nothing more than occasionally pop up to tell someone they're wrong or to insult them.

Lookin' for a troll? Look in the mirror.

Karby, maybe
GG - real ass.

Kensagaku

05-03-2011, 07:25 AM

Eh, comparatively GG is a saint when put beside you. >.>

Greatguardian

05-03-2011, 07:44 AM

Eh, comparatively GG is a saint when put beside you. >.>

<3.

@Andylynn: In all seriousness, I try to give every new face/name a blank slate when I'm reading their posts. I treat a lot of posters with respect, and even sincerely tried to help Naturebeckles for multiple pages in the old Haste threads and a couple others. The difference from your perspective is likely the fact that, once I lose all patience/respect for a particular poster, I won't be giving them as much slack when they start spouting off crap.

You threw away all of your credibility as a source of legitimate information weeks ago. Aside from abusing a sock account and pretending to have a Relic, you consistently demonstrate a complete and utter lack of proper understanding of game mechanics. Your knowledge of mechanics extends as far as hear-say, skimming posts made by others and taking only their conclusions without their process, and looking up basic entries on Wiki.

While that much knowledge is generally enough to play the game fine, it in no way means you have any standing to criticize others or give advice in/on a topic which is beyond your understanding. Your constant appeals to authority grate on my nerves. You made your post as if you are personally a game developer and/or are employed in the video game industry. Judging from your past history of fabricating lies to bolster your own "online credibility", I cannot take such an implication without a grain of salt.

When you make an abrasive post with a pretext which is utterly false, expect to be called out on it. Blade: Jin is not Wind Elemental Damage. FFXI is not "A Dinosaur". And we, as paying customers, are not "Lucky" to be receiving updates and content. FFXI is still significantly newer, and significantly more populated than several other MMOs which are still receiving updates to this day.

With that said, I think it is just a little sad how painfully obvious it is that FFXI is not being given much in terms of manpower and resources. I think our current Development Team is most definitely working very hard with what they have available, and I cannot find fault with them for that. If it was up to them, I'm sure they would be pulling out all the stops and doing whatever they can to improve and expand on Vana'Diel. Unfortunately, it's never really up to them. They have to make do with what they have, and in that regard I feel that have done an excellent job.

Ravenmore

05-03-2011, 08:45 AM

Other games are not bound by PS2 (or hiding behind it). I won't be playing any MMOs after i'm done with FF11 that is also on a console aka FF14. GG has a good point the Dev team we have now would most likly love to revamp the whole game but thier hands are tied by higher ups and Share holders telling the higher ups what they want.

Raksha

05-03-2011, 10:20 AM

Well, If you do so enjoy the game as is, You really should not quit over a Transition.

I truly believe by 99 we will have that variety again. Abyssea may simply be 1 Event, but it offers so much more than Dynamis, Sky, and Kings offered combined. Its Friendly casual content for all players to enjoy, it has good systems in place. While it has its flaws, So did the old 75 systems.

Dynamis had terrible drop rates, was boring and repetitive. Sky was awful because it was over-run with RMT, and camping against 20 other linkshells for 1 Pop NM was awful too. Kings, I won't even touch, for fear one of the King's White knights will come in and tell me it was the bestest system ever and bots were cool.

Abyssea has some of those flaws of the old systems, but it works and they're less apparent. (I can name 1, Still have free-roaming NMs, But they have shorter spawns now).

If you love the game so much you've played for so long, You really shouldn't quit simply because of this transitional period. When we hit 99, Give it a couple updates, If we dont have any meaningful content, I'd drop the game like its hot too.

I don't deny FFXIV is getting a lot of the DEV attention, But i think when FFXIV gets off its feet, or dies horribly, FFXI will begin to get attention again. Its really hard to tell right now. But i've stuck with FFXI through worse...

If this is true then why are they dragging out the next LVL raise? Instead they are introducing this "voidwatch" stuff to tide us over til 95.

I for one like the fact that all my friends can get everything and have access to everything, and we can do it together in small groups,

Unless your friends are PLD/RDM/SCH/DRK/PUP/etc

Sparthos

05-03-2011, 10:51 AM

Here are my concerns:

1. Triggers are back.

Ugh. These better be different otherwise it'll be another 6months before certain jobs see the light of day again. Things like Chi Blast being procs I hope are for demonstration purposes, more realistic new triggers would be SCH helixes, COR shots or even puppet weaponskills.

2. Atmacite

A light buff is fine but if this yet again marginalizes buffing classes then we'll have Abyssea all over again where RDM/COR/BRD are all rather "optional" outside of a handful of buffs. The game worked better (for events) when you need a support backline.

Some buffs = Good.
Anything more than 1 atma = Toxic

wish12oz

05-03-2011, 10:53 AM

Unless your friends are PLD/RDM/SCH/DRK/PUP/etc

Myself and lots of my friends have those jobs. (I actually have 3, thats over half!)
But we're all smart enough to know the game is more fun when you have lots of jobs available so you're never useless. If you were not aware of that, then now you know, and knowing is half the battle.

Khajit

05-03-2011, 12:36 PM

I didn't say that either, I think you know what I meant. Currently atmas make us invincible (or damn near it) in abyssea and anyone can gather a group of people and kill any nm. Wiping makes no difference (provided noone else claims the mob when it goes white). I was really hoping for something new where we wouldn't receive any status boosts, but where we would have to actually play smart.

Well, we'll just have to wait and see I guess.

The people that really suck still wipe. It's just alot harder because of Apoc atma. So long as they don't have apoc in voidwatch you can probably guarantee alot less cockblocking by bad players.

Raksha

05-03-2011, 02:26 PM

Ravenmore

05-03-2011, 03:04 PM

People forget the old days fast don't they.

Dijana

05-03-2011, 04:31 PM

Myself and lots of my friends have those jobs. (I actually have 3, thats over half!)
But we're all smart enough to know the game is more fun when you have lots of jobs available so you're never useless. If you were not aware of that, then now you know, and knowing is half the battle.

You missed the etc.

The game is more fun with lots of jobs. But its even more fun when you get to play the jobs you like instead of what's needed. My main is dnc, and it actually does pretty good in abyssea, but Im on it so much Im starting to get sick of it. I have nin and mnk too, but I dont particularly want to play those, I'd rather play sch, or cor. I have friends though who never get to play their favourite jobs now and were practically forced to lvl up things like whm or blm to be 'useful'. But for alot of people, playing a job simply because its useful doesnt necessarily make the game fun at all..

Ravenmore

05-03-2011, 05:07 PM

Zyeriis

05-03-2011, 05:47 PM

Well HNM LSs in general were the worst thing in the game ever. You can blame RMT for some of the ridiculousness on the AH and the economy but I'd bet everything I have on HNMLSs being a major contributor to those things in the past. This, of course, is completely irrelevant. As it stands, that's a relatively skewed outlook on things. They only wanted those jobs because they already had the other jobs and needed less of them. The fact remains that they still NEEDED jobs like Paladin and more for various reasons. Abyssea did away with that, and now if you don't have at least one of a select few jobs (mnk/thf/nin/whm/blm/blu/war) you're relatively screwed if you want to do such things. My COR gets absolutely no air time in abyssea and it's my main (best geared, piles of gear from pre-abyssea). PLD, the first job I leveled, gets no air time either. The most I get to do with anything other than NIN is proc on my SAM once or twice while subbing DNC and healing people. That's right, my Samurai is essentially a back line healer now in abyssea. My DRG? I have a DRG?

Chocobits

05-03-2011, 05:53 PM

One thing I'm noticing in this thread is that people are using "alot" a lot. I know this is a forum dedicated to a fantasy game, but let's not use imaginary words. Once is a typo. More than once is L2spell. "Alot" isn't a word. Seriously. Look it up. I find it hard to take the opinions of anyone who uses fakewords srsly. Do you guys use Firefox at all? It has an auto spell-checker. Notice that it's underlining "alot"? It doesn't recognize make believe words. (inb4 "y u mad?")

Grammar lessens aside, I think comments like "what skill was required before Abyssea?" should be condemned. There was. Maybe you personally chose not to exercise it. That doesn't mean it was never there. It isn't there now. It's all about crit damage, sky-high HP and unlimited MP. If it becomes like this outside of Abyssea, I think I'll do everyone a favor and go play Perfect World or something. Those of us that defeated CoP pre-nerf in 2006, were in darter's aery WITHOUT a bot, and those of us who were 6 manning sky gods at 75 cap might be a little offended by the current state of the game and were looking for respite with the coming update. Casual/Easy =/= Fun. Accomplishments are something that seem to have lost meaning.

Ravenmore

05-03-2011, 06:04 PM

PLD was one of the jobs that HNM didn't take either, some would go as far to say "We already have tanks so don't expect to get gear for your pld or nin over our existing tank".

What you said bout drg is same way I felt getting forced to go on Sam with no merits then my fully merited blu almost fully merited drg and far better geared. I was so sick of sam when I left my last endgame shell I sold my hagun for 100 gil in my bazzar at 75 way before abyssea. That was my only really nice piece of gear for it, truely a AH sam and till that shell a after thought for just a differnt merit job. Just saying there will always be bandwagon jobs and people not getting to play the jobs they want if they don't want to put thier own runs together.

Alkalinehoe

05-03-2011, 06:09 PM

Sure i'm aware of that, it just so happens that my 5 jobs (SCH RDM SMN RNG DNC) are all useless. The fact that any job is 'useless' is the sticking point. Anyway I hope this voidwatch stuff is a little more inclusive than abyssea has become lately.
How is DNC useless? Sub /NIN for proc spells and you can tank too! RNG has a lot of the Blue piercing procs, not to mention Gandiva is pretty powerful to DD with. I often get to go on RNG and have our LS THF go another job and I just Bounty Shot the NMs, from experience, BS is a great sub for TH. SCH/RDM can main heal pretty effectively when farming/seal hunting/various NMs. You don't always need a WHM for everything, it's just nice. SMNs are pretty good soloers with DC atma. :)

Ravenmore

05-03-2011, 06:18 PM

Low manning sky gods are in the same boat as not using atmas/buff, but for 18 the fights were a joke which most LS took. If you could find 5 others back in the sky days to take on that low man then I see no reason you couldn't do the same with abyssea with out atmas or crour buffs. Now if you are mad that other people can get the same gear as you that you think are not as skilled then you have problems cause its been the same way since 75 with body chunking LSs.

Zyeriis

05-03-2011, 06:29 PM

Skillfully low manning sky gods because more people would mean less reward (and people being uncertaintys as they are: finding and relying upon) versus always available atmas/buffs are hardly the same thing. Even without the powerful atmas there are a ton of things that can be straight-up soloed in abyssea, let alone low-manned. This attributes to the fact that things are easier, because they require even less people? It is true that if you take a bst to sky these days and want to fight any and every thing, bst is going to win but thats due to the level and ability increase with the content remaining as it was. The content we are given in it's place is laughable.

I'm not 100% on what you mean by "body chunking LSs" but I can take a guess as to what you mean. Linkshells that just threw bodies at stuff? Yeah, those are called n00bs and are used as a water mark to show the scale in skill? I don't deny that these people still exist (in far greater quantity) and they still wipe against things someone with the aforementioned skill can easily handle low man but the level of skill required to low man these things has dropped dramatically thus further showing the difference between the mindless body throwing and skillful strategy and tactics.

Ravenmore

05-03-2011, 06:47 PM

The content before was laughable. Nothing in sky needed any more of a strat then rdm/drk chainspell stun or rng shadow bind. Then Kirin was either kited or zerged down weres the strat in that. To kill anything all you had to do was check wiki and see how someone else killed it or try what worked in the past. The way some are coming off though is that the unskill are getting gear so its lessing thier own since of accomplishment but they have always been here.

Xilk

05-03-2011, 07:52 PM

Its been said a few times, but I'd like to be explicit: Atma is not what makes Abyssea Easy.
Primeval brew is.
With atma available to you are Shinryu or Rani too easy? Is Ironclad Triturator? Empousa? Indrik?
No, the only thing that makes them easy, is primeval brew.

some jobs have an easier time w/ certain NM's vs others. This is all good, and frankly I think the NM's in Abyssea scale quite well. Remember visions is for level 80, scars 85, Heroes 90.
Also, the mature (as in educated and experienced, not necessarily behavior) player base figures out new content rather quickly.

Abyssea has been wonderful. It has so many new rules to figure out:
Weakness Targetting
Light Aura affecting gameplay here
Atma
EXP Chain changes
Cruor Chain Changes
Dominion
Bastion
Abyssite
New Job abilities/traits
new equipment

I'm not sure what the people claiming "no new content" are whining about. this is ALL new content. Its been VERY VERY interesting and fun.

It also has a finite life cycle, which many players have complained about. Why? are you that afraid of the future? its a game, not your life. Don't be too invested. i rather like it this way. I can "complete" some content. There is a sense of satisfaction. I can always go back to abyssea to try it again a different way, but I am not stuck there. I'm very much looking forward to going thru alot of the ToAU endgame content now, as I've skipped much of it.

I look at it this way: I prefer a tv series with a finite 2 or 3 seasons. It has a beginning and middle and an end. Don't give me Smallville, Buffy, Dragonball Z or Bleach. They start w/ really interesting characters and premise, BUT they drag ON and ON and stagnate. MMO's CAN go on a long time, but FFXI was stagnant. Abyssea was a big Injection of new life. Adding new and dynamic content makes it continually new and refreshing and interesting.

I think the Devs are doing exactly the right thing. They are trying out new stuff. Sometimes changes are BIG sometimes they are small. I might like more STORY content as well, but I know that as a company SE is not prepared to do that in FFXI RIGHT NOW. an mmo is a dynamic thing. Time will tell if they ever add another expansion or not. All the whining in the world won't change that.

Atmacite: This very much sounds like a new type of atma but not for abyssea. Well outside abyssea doesn't mean you'll be able to use it everywhere. It might be only good for voidwatch. OR maybe we will be able to use it anywhere, but it is not necessarily going to be as strong as atma. It sounds like they are using the atma concept and remaking it w/ a tweak.

This pattern has been active in ffxi forever. Besieged>Campaign>Bastion>WoE
SKY, SEA, ZNM, VNM, AByssea, Voidwalkers

The ideas are the same for many of these, but they are listening to feedback and trying variations to get it just right.
I would point you at a few differences we see in atmacite:
The power of them will vary.
I read this to mean that I can probably equip at atmacite that gives me +5% crit damage. I probably have to buff it up by expending cruor to maybe get it up to +15%. It might even be that you need to expend extra cruor everytime you want to adjust the power level of an atmacite. IF atmacite is useful all over vana'diel, then currently 'older' content will continue to get easier. The challenges will almost always get in the new content anyway.

The whole implementation of atma (and I presume atmacite) really allows us to tweak our jobs and support job combinations in different ways. This has long been a fun, engaging strong point of FFXI. taking atma outside of abyssea just lets us stretch this mechanic and possibility even futher. I know I still have alot of experimenting I want to do w/ different atma combinations, even after I have most gear I want from abyssea.

Individual treasure caskets: They've been listening. This is a great solution
Stones & time limits to voidwatch fights: They've been listening. this is a very elegant solution. The stones imply there will be a wait time, a staggering to how often you can repeat an act. This means one small group will not be able to endlessly occupy an NM. hello all you Gakumatz frustrated players out there. This also means that no one will be able to hold an NM too long, impeding other players from participating in content. Then again its probably the same players who whine about these things as who whine about not being able to spam the same NM over and over again themselves. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

weakness targeting & light auras: These are great tools to include many jobs and make content valuable to different players for different reasons. both these aspects help the game be more cooperative and fun. Its another elegant solution to player elitism. Its not all about best dd anymore. You are aiming for certain staggers along withthe fight. The staggers and jobs you want may be different depending on your goal and the goals.

SE devs are clearly showing that they are keeping ideas that players have loved and trying to adjust less popular ideas to make them better.

Karbuncle

05-03-2011, 09:01 PM

Hey guys! Jobs being useless is completely new and never happened before!

Does no one remember back in the day when RNG Was THE only DD? Or perhaps when RNG was nerfed and BLM become the best DD?

Then SMN came along as the best DD because of it being hateless? Then maybe SAM and WAR rising to power as the "Best" DDs in the eyes of the community?

No one remembers the rise of Souleater Zergs? Where DRKs were considered the best DD? then came SE Counter-measures and DRKs feel from power slightly.

Jobs being useless has been a part of the game since day 1, Its not the Devs fault per-say, Its also the communities fault, And i don't even like using the word "Fault", cause that implies theres blame to be had. I don't think i can "blame" a community that chooses the quickest, most efficient path to victory as a norm. This game is full of time sinks, being able to lessen some of them through efficiency isn't a bad thing.

So stop complaining about so and so jobs being useless, when its been happening since day 1, It is nearly impossible to perfectly balance every job to have a use that always guarantees an invite/spot., the players, players, will always opt for the one that does the best DD/Tank/Healing ability and take them to make things go quicker.

But whats fun in an MMO, is that for every group demanding the best, theres another who will take people in regardless of job, and work out a proper strategy. Or you can simply do things with friends only, Like i do. I trust my friends though, I know thats apparently not common here.

Jobs becoming "Obsolete" or "Less than useful" is going to happen from day 1, to the day the servers close, Someone who pigeon holds themselves to one job only is going to feel that pain. There is no reason you should only level 1 out of 20 jobs anyway.

My favorite job is THF, but i have 12 other level 90 jobs now so i can always be ready to help people around me and be very flexible. I don't expect everyone to have 13 jobs, but have some variety in your life. Level 2~3 jobs so theres a higher chance you won't become useless with the next update.

I'll say it again, it is nearly impossible for SE to perfectly balance all 20 jobs to be useful all the time, people need to accept as a community who values speed, jobs will become "Obsolete". this isn't SE's fault, This isn't Abysseas fault, this is, for all intents and purposes, human nature. We want the fastest route from A to B, and sometimes your favorite job doesn't fall into "the bottom line" or A > B player driven content.

It sucks i know, I have PLD 90, and DRK 90, I know the woes of both being unused, Hell i almost considered selling my PLD gear... But i'm sticking it out. its like a roller coaster, the ups and downs of jobs rising/falling to power.

Get used to it :( its here to stay, and stop acting like this kinda of thing never happened before Abyssea.

Chocobits

05-04-2011, 05:16 AM

Why do people keep using RDM/DRK as an example of how pre-Abyssea content required no skill? Why don't we liken RDM/DRK to a Brew? Losers used that, others didn't. What about NOT using 2 hours on sky gods, for instance? You have several pop sets, how would that even work? Did everyone have a COR mule? Did you do "easier" events while 2 hours were down? I don't understand the mechanics of the gimpnicity (I use fakewords too sometimes). We straight tanked as normal through the Chainspell and went on with our lives, popping multiple firebirds back to back. Fire resist sets, fully merited Shell/Bar merits, 2 mages coordinating their cures (though our tanks weren't exactly hurting to the point of needing cure bombardment). Skill, you know? Maybe not :/

I agree largely with what you're saying Xilk, but I want to disagree that Atma isn't a game changer on less difficult mobs. There would be much less competition and cross camping if a disgusting full Aurore nin or thf couldn't solo many of the trigger mobs, for instance.

As far as gear goes, we've always gone through a cycle where some gear becomes obsolete. My point was that Empyrean gear pushed the envelope on that process off the desk, through the door, all the way to the post office where they sent the letter delivery verified return signature requested. BLM Body +2? 11 MAB/MACC? Set procs for BLM and BLU dealing 11k+? Both the Atma and the gear are just too strong, and that strength has become a crutch for weaker and less organized groups to kill mobs that would normally be far beyond them. The game today is less balanced than it's ever been. The argument that a small group of friends can go do Sobek, Amhuluk, zone bosses and what have is actually an argument to the contrary. Small social groups should NOT have the ability to do that, and even skilled duos shouldn't either.

On to the Abyssea mobs' strength. This is the real issue, as has been stated above. The NMs are laughable. It's all you can do to NOT kill a mob while trying to find a proc while it's being stubborn and not giving hints. Once you find that proc, the mob is dead in seconds. We did about 40 Chloris one night, and (because we didn't need to proc) each one lived for about 17 seconds max. No 2 hours or fancy buffs. While we appreciate the ease of kills, allowing us to accomplish a large number of kills toward Emp weapons, I would much rather see much more difficult mobs that reward more items per kill. Maybe I'm an "old**g", but to me great reward should come with great difficulty. That's where I get my jollies. I'm not liking how people can hand in their adventurer's coupon at the Cavernous Maw and be rewarded with 50 gil and their choice of ultimate, dream-worthy gearsets.

Aliekber

05-04-2011, 05:39 AM

The argument that a small group of friends can go do Sobek, Amhuluk, zone bosses and what have is actually an argument to the contrary. Small social groups should NOT have the ability to do that, and even skilled duos shouldn't either.

The level cap was raised because SE recognized that requiring 18 people for events was not helping the game, but hurting it. Higher-end players in dedicated shells may have liked getting everyone in the shell into Einherjar for one huge brawl, but to most people in the post-ToAU days, 18-man fight = you and your 3 friends, and 14 WG /shout incompetents.

Server merges are a (bad, annoying) solution--at this stage of the game, everyone has their friends they want to play with. They don't want to join some crappy HNM shell to wait in line for 6 months for a shot at gear, and Abyssea is designed with that in mind. Not only is FFXI growing older, so is its playerbase. Players who started in college have families and careers now, and not as much time to dedicate to the game. As long as SE can keep them hooked, they don't care how many hours per day they play, as long as they stay subscribed. This is a good thing.

Hate to play the RL card here, but the no-lifers had their day in FFXI. In order for the game to survive it needs to cater to more casual play (in time investment, not necessarily difficulty). The hardest part of FFXI has always been schedule coordination, anyway (or, to paraphrase an Alla sig, "the hardest part is finding 5 other people who aren't retarded").

Ravenmore

05-04-2011, 05:55 AM

Thing is you didn't need rdm/drk rng worked just as well if you had more then one pop. Sky gods were weak as crap anyway so diffculty was out the window. So all that was left was the low drop rates. Genbu was a joke, dragon/bird shadow bind run out of range. Thats using the tools SE gave us, just having merits and gear are the same thing. Its not skill its planning. Your trying to say sky god were hard in fact anyone with half a brain could kill them even low man. It also goes back to you own since of accomplishment is lessen by some one you deem to have no skill cause how easy you deem it to be. Once you do the mobs so many times as it took to get the drops you wanted you could do them in your sleep.

Ravenmore

05-04-2011, 06:12 AM

The argument that a small group of friends can go do Sobek, Amhuluk, zone bosses and what have is actually an argument to the contrary. Small social groups should NOT have the ability to do that, and even skilled duos shouldn't either.

So how the is this any differnt then you lowmaning sky gods back at 75. Why is it that most HNM LS fell apart after abyssea. It was seen you no longer had to bother with people like you. If I don't have to put up with people I don't like just to get gear I'm happy. This is a MMO but I should be able to do what I want with only my friends.Some of my friends came from LSs I have been in some have come from helping new players on missions point is if we can go out and have fun with out a LS going ape that I didn't show up for a event or for doing something with other friends from other shells. Most endgame shells would kick you on the spot if you were doing sky gods outside the shell even if you never held pops.

Bhujerba

05-04-2011, 07:06 AM

Hey guys! Jobs being useless is completely new and never happened before!

....

Except that you and the rest of FFXI community never read or remember the new direction of job balance, taken from [VanaFest 2010] FFXI:Job Adjustments Update by SE:

Overall Direction
Up until now, most job adjustments have been implemented with ease of party-forming in mind. From this point onwards, we plan to shift the focus towards ease of participation in endgame content. The role of each job will also come under review.

Currently, the role of debuffing enemies is the exclusive domain of only a few jobs, but we intend to examine ways to enable more professions to perform similar roles, empowering each with the capacity to handle a wider range of situations. Our goal is to achieve-without sacrificing the uniqueness of each job-greater ease of participation in endgame content and provide the opportunity for all participants to contribute equally.

The scope of our vision for job adjustments does not stop there, however. Maintaining battle balance remains one of our highest priorities. As such, we intend to conduct reviews on an ongoing basis and introduce new equipment and adjust weapon skills as necessary. It is anticipated that the level cap increase will impact the balance of certain elements more than others. We will keep a close watch on these areas and, if the situation demands, review and reconsider even the adjustments that have been announced. Our ultimate goal is to provide the most rewarding, balanced play environment possible to all adventurers.

http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/event/vanafes2010/index.html

It is nearly impossible to perfectly balance every job to have a use that always guarantees an invite/spotSometimes, I pity ffxi players for their ignorance of other MMOs and what they achieved, in WoW (yes WoW) when LK expansion was released, Blizzard Devs managed to balance their class system so much that all classes and their specs (equivalent to 30 jobs in ffxi) are completely 100% useful for their roles, it didn't matter what class you are, you can tank? then you can tank just as good as any tank of any class, and each class remained Unique.

why is it so hard to accept the equality in usefulness and utility when it comes to job's roles and let ppl enjoy their favorite playstyle? is it because the problem existed and it always worked that way? or is it because ffxi allow 1 character to switch job so you treat it as playing single ff game while somehow ignoring completely the bag space problem? (tho I can say the problem diminished slightly with the slip system) or is it because you are afraid Jobs will lose their uniqueness? (which by the example above can be avoidable, not to mention that Jobs and Classes will always be unique, many ppl confuse "roles" similarities with "jobs" uniqueness, when these Job's Roles are meant to be equally useful).
... say all the tanks are in ffxi equally good where it doesn't matter if you are a ninja or a Paladin, you can come whatever and be able to tank effectively any given fight, isn't this what ppl want?

In the end, this SE new vision, and I was very pleased when I saw this direction in 2010, and its very apparent in Abyssea except that they ruined it somehow by the weakness system/not developing other jobs correctly (lack of Cure V) etc.., still I'm glad that SE finally recognized the issue and working to achieve this goal.

Dijana

05-04-2011, 07:16 AM

Dijana with out trying to be insulting, thats the way the game has always been. Almost all large endgame shells would only take you if you had brd rdm or whm leveled and sometimes only if they were fully merited. HNM LSs were the worst that pushed people to level jobs they didn't like just to get a shot at gear they wanted for the jobs they liked to play. Now the one exception if you were a DD was to be a drk with K.club.

Should try to look up some old HNM LS apps some of the crap that they wanted would make abyssea look trivial in terms of wanted or useful jobs.

I am completely aware there have always been jobs considered useless. Like I said my main is dnc, and back when I lvled that I was told by plenty of people it was useless. I never got into HNMs and other hardcore endgame stuff for a reason, I had friends in a big endgame ls, my own fiance was a leader, who would let me tag along to events just to help though I was never officially a member, I saw exactly what was required of them. I did do some events with more casual LSs however. The difference though is that back then it wasnt nearly as bad. There were still things you could participate in as other jobs, you could fill in the same roles as the 'useful' ones, even if it wasnt quite as effective.

But that was without the proccing system. With that, if you dont have the particular jobs then there's no point to come as something else. I didnt say it in my last post, I think that is the biggest problem. As someone said earlier Im too lazy too go back and look for, I think there should be specific procs for other jobs as well, and Im really hoping this update includes that. Hopefully to balance out not being able to have every single proc (unless people want to bring every single job with them) they can make it less effective, or more controllable somehow on knowing which kind of procs you will need.

Ravenmore

05-04-2011, 08:01 AM

Bhujerba

05-04-2011, 08:20 AM

the weakness system can be easily solved and expanded to the rest of the jobs, by having more than one ability/spell proc the same weakness.

Wenceslao

05-04-2011, 08:22 AM

i think its simply disgusting, a bad joke from SE DEV team, what we want is not take abyss monsters scattered around Vana'diel, what we want is an actual challenge, im tired of being asked to come BLM to here, BLM to there, just because my other jobs aren't required to proc this will be the same NM we can find in abyssea just without the worrie of build azure to get lots of TE (now is set to a 30mins fight), if i knew at end game, my COR and DRG would have such limitations, i'd never leveled it.... anyway i think im being so dramatic for something that hasn't come yet, hope i can throw my words to the trashcan once it's implemented and give a good use to my other jobs than just a BLM....

Sparthos

05-04-2011, 08:27 AM

Here's my take:

Abyssea up till Scars was great. Mobs were moderately difficult, EXP alliances needed skill and proper light builds in order to work, Emps were still relatively difficult to obtain and overall we had improvement from Vision of Abyssea.

Everything went to hell with Heroes. Things got way too easy with regards to things building lights and EXP alliances went from needing players present to EXP well (excluding cleaves) to being downright mindless with Dominion Ops. EXP parties are 80% AFKs and 20% skillups now.

Shinryu leading to 200k brews was just ridiculous and turned and already easy expansion series into a joke. Really SE, you couldn't just leave brews @2m and make some gear you know... rare? Shinryu is supposed to be difficult yet all it comes down to in this wild world of Abyssea is landing blue procs then bitching when you get Apkallu eggs.

Everything the previous two expansions (Vision/Scars) added became a joke when you could effortlessly solo or do everything short of Panto/Apademak etc with 3-4 people. Is it any wonder all the game boils down to for many is cranking out Emps? lol

SE went overboard. Soloability is good and all but an MMO is not an MMO when you do not promote true party play. Abyssea took party play and boiled everything down to less than 6man play. The game needs to have some reason for alliances to exist again.

Post-Abyssea seems to be more of the same, I can't wait for certain jobs to be shafted because they can't proc. lol

Leonlionheart

05-04-2011, 05:36 PM

Everyones still talking like they know exactly how this update will be.
SE still has it in their power to make this next update great and challenging. Even if we still get Atma, it could still be fun difficult content, like 80cap abyssea was.

Plus, there won't be brews. Hopefully.

Plus, the atmacite seems to be different from atma. Upgradeable through cruor? Maybe it'll be customizable.

The new battlegrounds (using Kindred Crests and High Kindred Crests) don't seem to have anything to do with abyssea either.

svengalis

05-04-2011, 06:08 PM

Alukat

05-04-2011, 06:29 PM

The weakness system is'nt the only thing, players being to lazy to put thier own runs together and want someone else to do it. Another thing for seals you don't need yellow they drop well enough with out with just a thf. Now only thing I would change on the proc times for blue, do away with the times and make it random like red. One thing I would hate is having procs for every job that would mean taking 20 people with only 18 alli slots. Last thing been said over and over go /nin and you can proc those spells the blu would love you for it.

i agree that a thf is just enough to make seals drop.
duo'd many NMs for seals with my whm friend and we have almost always got 1-3 seals with th effectiness 7-9.

i had an EG LS a while ago.and there are for sure no useless jobs if u now what roles they can be used for.

if someone did want to go dnc then i placed him DD pt to debuff the mob with steps and to heal the other DDs if they did get hit sometimes.
bst / smn with their pets can do sacpulls.
rngs could attack from far away, makes curing them unneccessary, due to the fact that they won't get hit by AoEs.
Blu mage can do sheep song as backup AoE sleep.
pups with blm puppet did support the blms with nukes (and yes it was nice in dynamis that they could melee and nuke the mob, like pld during invincible and thf during perfect dodge).

so if ppl say a job is useless they don't get the advantages and disadvantages of them.

Leonlionheart

05-04-2011, 07:19 PM

i had an EG LS a while ago.and there are for sure no useless jobs if u now what roles they can be used for.

if someone did want to go dnc then i placed him DD pt to debuff the mob with steps and to heal the other DDs if they did get hit sometimes.
bst / smn with their pets can do sacpulls.
rngs could attack from far away, makes curing them unneccessary, due to the fact that they won't get hit by AoEs.
Blu mage can do sheep song as backup AoE sleep.
pups with blm puppet did support the blms with nukes (and yes it was nice in dynamis that they could melee and nuke the mob, like pld during invincible and thf during perfect dodge).

so if ppl say a job is useless they don't get the advantages and disadvantages of them.

:| this post is totally naive.

I'll tell you why so many people call jobs useless: Because WHM, WAR, MNK, BLM, and DNC do it so much better.
WAR trumps all DD by a huge margin, except maybe DRG on birds (no abyssea NM that drops +2 is a bird but Amhuluk(kind of) and Bennu.)
MNK tanks everything better than anyone, except maybe NIN or DNC, depending on the mob.
BLM has all that BLM stuff, its pretty self explanatory, considering yellow procs and such.
DNC tanks and deals respectable damage with just Evisceration, and can cure itself, and can haste it's party.

Even knowing that I have a member come DRK because DRK is really quite efficient at stuns (being able to cap haste through gear is huge) and has better survivability than WAR, and can do all procs bar staff/club/polearm which can be covered by WHM and I just pray it's not Raiden Thrust. DRK can also TP off a mob without dealing damage, which can be invaluable on those weakling NMs that drop KI.

However, if you are pugging something and want to do it with as little members as possible which would net you more rewards, you can completely cover every region of abyssea with: THF (Only really for TH, occasional tanking) WAR, NIN, BLM, BLU, BRD, WHM, and MNK (only if the NM can hit harder than 2k). Everything else is just kind of there.

Karbuncle

05-04-2011, 07:56 PM

Except that you and the rest of FFXI community never read or remember the new direction of job balance, taken from [VanaFest 2010] FFXI:Job Adjustments Update by SE:

http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/event/vanafes2010/index.html

Sometimes, I pity ffxi players for their ignorance of other MMOs and what they achieved, in WoW (yes WoW) when LK expansion was released, Blizzard Devs managed to balance their class system so much that all classes and their specs (equivalent to 30 jobs in ffxi) are completely 100% useful for their roles, it didn't matter what class you are, you can tank? then you can tank just as good as any tank of any class, and each class remained Unique.

why is it so hard to accept the equality in usefulness and utility when it comes to job's roles and let ppl enjoy their favorite playstyle? is it because the problem existed and it always worked that way? or is it because ffxi allow 1 character to switch job so you treat it as playing single ff game while somehow ignoring completely the bag space problem? (tho I can say the problem diminished slightly with the slip system) or is it because you are afraid Jobs will lose their uniqueness? (which by the example above can be avoidable, not to mention that Jobs and Classes will always be unique, many ppl confuse "roles" similarities with "jobs" uniqueness, when these Job's Roles are meant to be equally useful).
... say all the tanks are in ffxi equally good where it doesn't matter if you are a ninja or a Paladin, you can come whatever and be able to tank effectively any given fight, isn't this what ppl want?

In the end, this SE new vision, and I was very pleased when I saw this direction in 2010, and its very apparent in Abyssea except that they ruined it somehow by the weakness system/not developing other jobs correctly (lack of Cure V) etc.., still I'm glad that SE finally recognized the issue and working to achieve this goal.

Thats why i used the qualifier word "nearly". See!

It is nearly impossible to perfectly balance every job to have a use that always guarantees an invite/spot

Awww.... You pity us for ignorance? well I pity you and your lack of reading comprehension! I don't recall saying it was impossible. ALSO FYI, I'm rather positive before the "savior lich king" there were quite a few useless jobs/spec combos in WoW. In fact, there are still a lot of useless(Less-than-useful) spec-combo. also, you act like there aren't a few job/spec combos people prefer over other jobs, yet there are. Bet when you used that WoW comparison you didn't expect to be arguing with someone who knows the game huh? Even in WoW players (good ones) Still opt for the best jobs to get something done, just like we do here.

I do admit its not to an extreme extent to the point a job is 100% Useless, Like PLD is now. But even a PLD has a small use, you just need an Ochain and an Almace for it.

Wow achieved a good balance, FFXI Will likely in the future. but the problem is FFXI's job systems don't have the "Customizability" of the WoW classes. We don't technically have "specs", we can't spec our PLD for pure DD output, Unfortunately we're dealt with what they give us. that is why its harder to balance jobs in FFXI, than it is in WoW.

Secondly, your first quote is hilarious, you act like that hasn't been their goal since day 1, they're just announcing that now as fluff text to give us some idea of their plans. their goal from day 1 has always been to maintain a balance between the jobs (what MMO wouldn't...?), so acting like they're suddenly now just begining to try is ignorant.

you call me ignorant, when you assume the above!

HA HA! Irony.

Beyond that, As proof they've always cared about job Balance. the Nerf RNG? Why all the buffs to SAM? why the nerfing of Magic on NMs for a Little while (Eventually reverted). Remember the 2-handed buff? I do. Every big job buff/nerf has been SE's intent on "Maintaining Balance", Ergo, Your first quote is meaningless as this has been their goal since FFXI started, so i don't know why you bring it up like its some new goal they have.

I believe we'll get a balance in the future, my original quote which you blew out of context, was that people needed to stop complaining about 1-2 jobs being less than useful, and give SE time to fix it, since they always try to fix and balance the jobs in time.

Its harder to fix jobs in FFXI than WoW because they have two fundamentally astronomically different job systems. You may as well be comparing Apples to Race cars.

Alukat

05-04-2011, 08:10 PM

u obviously missed the point that my post was about pre-abyssea times, or did u just start to play when abyssea was released and don't even know them?

"war trumps all DDs" lol
i'm doing 2-3k eviscerations w/o SA and my thf is geared for Mercy stroke and for evisceration it is totally gimped.
MNK best tank, that's pretty silly, i haven't found a mob yet which i couldn't tank as thf.
just because monk has counter for some more damage it doesn't suppose to mean that mnk should be the only way to tank or nin or dnc.
solo'd koios, was tanking gamayun,bennu,maere,resheph,carabosse (we killed it trio and we saw a 10 ppl ally wiping lol) and some more mobs. as soon my trio/quadro group is done with the +1's we go for +'2. and then i can tell u that some or even many of them can be tanked by thf.

Karbuncle

05-04-2011, 08:21 PM

Leonlionheart

05-04-2011, 08:33 PM

I think its funny he mentions DNC but not THF. THF > DNC For everything. you know why ;O? THF can evade as good, DD as good, and stay alive as good (why wouldn't you bring a whm :D!), and THF Gets TREASURE HUNTER :O!!!

Thf wins ;P

Though I mentioned THF being all you need to tank actually.
MNK still does it several times better, THF can get 1 shotted too easily by too many things. (Gates of Hades comes to mind, even though most of the time you will resist it. Fulmination too.)
MNK gets 4k HP in Heroes zones most of the time.
Oh did I mention MNK does several times better DPS? Victory Smite is a monster.

Although DNC will always be safer than THF.

u obviously missed the point that my post was about pre-abyssea times, or did u just start to play when abyssea was released and don't even know them?

"war trumps all DDs" lol
i'm doing 2-3k eviscerations w/o SA and my thf is geared for Mercy stroke and for evisceration it is totally gimped.
MNK best tank, that's pretty silly, i haven't found a mob yet which i couldn't tank as thf.
just because monk has counter for some more damage it doesn't suppose to mean that mnk should be the only way to tank or nin or dnc.
solo'd koios, was tanking gamayun,bennu,maere,resheph,carabosse (we killed it trio and we saw a 10 ppl ally wiping lol) and some more mobs. as soon my trio/quadro group is done with the +1's we go for +'2. and then i can tell u that some or even many of them can be tanked by thf.

lol WAR WRECKS THF DD. There's no competition. I do 5k Ukko's every 3~8 seconds, that's if Retaliation doesn't proc, WHICH it does, and often. 2~3 Ukko's and you'll be capped on hate, and that means that you will retaliate ALOT. Trust me, there's nothing that can out do WAR in reality or on paper in terms of PURE DD. Get's killed easily though, so that's a shame.
WAR/SAM gets sekka, hello 5k light. Meditate too, which allows you to SC without sekka if you're worth you're mettle at the job.

For the record I've played since pre-CoP, I'm just not delusional about jobs just because they are my favorite.

EDIT: underlined WRECKS.

Karbuncle

05-04-2011, 08:39 PM

Although DNC will always be safer than THF.

Seems like an opinion Leon :|. so here's mine :O! I'd take a good WHM + THF combo over a DNC + WHM combo any day. DNC has that PDT thing, But THF has about 40 EVA on DNC in Job Traits/Skill.

While DNC can cure itself/etc, Won't matter if your WHM is worth spit :X. Don't get me wrong, DNC is a wonderful job, I'd just prefer THF over it when i duo with a WHM.

(MNK of course being a winner if i can find a THF or i dont want to TH the mob).

edi: I dunno if you already mentioned it, but DRG > WAR in terms of DD if the WAR does not have Ukko's Fury. Drakesbane spits all over Raging Rush. DRG also builds TP Faster with aids from Spirit/Soul jump so they WS more often.

WAR is amazing, but its not the "Best" DD unless said WAR has an Empyrean WS. even then... Victory Smite and MNKs natural DPS really gives WAR a run for its money.

and yes, WAR >>> THF in terms of DD lol. They're not miles apart like they used to be, but theres a clear winner.

Leonlionheart

05-04-2011, 08:45 PM

Seems like an opinion Leon :|. so here's mine :O! I'd take a good WHM + THF combo over a DNC + WHM combo any day. DNC has that PDT thing, But THF has about 40 EVA on DNC in Job Traits/Skill.

While DNC can cure itself/etc, Won't matter if your WHM is worth spit :X. Don't get me wrong, DNC is a wonderful job, I'd just prefer THF over it when i duo with a WHM.

(MNK of course being a winner if i can find a THF or i dont want to TH the mob).

edi: I dunno if you already mentioned it, but DRG > WAR in terms of DD if the WAR does not have Ukko's Fury. Drakesbane spits all over Raging Rush. DRG also builds TP Faster with aids from Spirit/Soul jump so they WS more often.

WAR is amazing, but its not the "Best" DD unless said WAR has an Empyrean WS. even then... Victory Smite and MNKs natural DPS really gives WAR a run for its money.

and yes, WAR >>> THF in terms of DD lol. They're not miles apart like they used to be, but theres a clear winner.

I agree, but I've seen Itzpapalotl 1 shot too many THF's to really believe in the job's tanking ability. Fire Break doesn't happen often, but if you're relying on the THF to be the only tank and it's HP gets down to 3% from one attack if your WHM is doing something else (hasting, barfira, something that has to be done) the THF is royally screwed. DNC however, can put fan dance up and cure itself, and in bad situations Violent Flourish saves lives. (Particularly on Briareus and/or any NM that has long 'readying' for their abilities.)

Most NMs that won't really matter though, and THF can do it just fine. Hell THF barely needs utsusemi their evasion is so out the roof, allowing different subs and such. Most can even keep their DD gear on when tanking because of the pure skill/evasion they get before gear.

MNK with victory smite is great, yeah. But it's WAR's WS frequency that pushes it above the rest. Raging Rush usually does 2.5~5k for me, when I didn't have Ukko's yet. Ascetic's Fist does about 2~4k, TA spikes it particularly high if Impetus is charged. But MNK tp is a lot slower than WAR's.

I think DRG with Drakesbane and a 5hit is the only thing that could keep up with WAR, especially on birds.

But when Ukonvasara comes into play, or even Maschu +2, every other DD is ruined.

Karbuncle

05-04-2011, 08:47 PM

I agree, but I've seen Itzpapalotl 1 shot too many THF's to really believe in the job's tanking ability. Fire Break doesn't happen often, but if you're relying on the THF to be the only tank and it's HP gets down to 3% from one attack if your WHM is doing something else (hasting, barfira, something that has to be done) the THF is royally screwed. DNC however, can put fan dance up and cure itself, and in bad situations Violent Flourish saves lives. (Particularly on Briareus and/or any NM that has long 'readying' for their abilities.)

Most NMs that won't really matter though, and THF can do it just fine. Hell THF barely needs utsusemi their evasion is so out the roof, allowing different subs and such. Most can even keep their DD gear on when tanking because of the pure skill/evasion they get before gear.

Dont DNC and THF have generally the same HP/Resistance?

If a THF is one shotted, so will the DNC in any situation. (unless its a physical move and the DNC already had the Fan-dance or W/E up).

Alukat

05-04-2011, 08:50 PM

lol WAR WRECKS THF DD. There's no competition. I do 5k Ukko's every 3~8 seconds, that's if Retaliation doesn't proc, WHICH it does, and often. 2~3 Ukko's and you'll be capped on hate, and that means that you will retaliate ALOT. Trust me, there's nothing that can out do WAR in reality or on paper in terms of PURE DD. Get's killed easily though, so that's a shame.
WAR/SAM gets sekka, hello 5k light. Meditate too, which allows you to SC without sekka if you're worth you're mettle at the job.

For the record I've played since pre-CoP, I'm just not delusional about jobs just because they are my favorite.

EDIT: underlined WRECKS.

wait...what? 5k ukko's every 3-8 seconds?
now explain me pls how u get 50tp in 1,5-4 seconds with a 482 delay weapon.anyway u wouldn't even need /sam for solo light, sc window is 1-5 seconds after last ws, so if u time it right u should be able to do light anytime w/o /sam.

Leonlionheart

05-04-2011, 08:51 PM

Dont DNC and THF have generally the same HP/Resistance?

If a THF is one shotted, so will the DNC in any situation. (unless its a physical move and the DNC already had the Fan-dance or W/E up).

Probably, but if a DNC's HP is reduced severely in one hit (like to less than 10%, which is usually what Fire Break from Itz does) then the DNC can, assuming he has TP, heal himself if the WHM is otherwise preoccupied.

Karbuncle

05-04-2011, 08:52 PM

Probably, but if a DNC's HP is reduced severely in one hit (like to less than 10%, which is usually what Fire Break from Itz does) then the DNC can, assuming he has TP, heal himself if the WHM is otherwise preoccupied.

Yah, those are rare situations but i see your point.

THF Could also pop a Temp item though, or use Perfect dodge. If you're in that kind of situation more than once a fight you probably need a better WHM anyway :P

But again, i do see your point. You feel safer with DNC, I'd probably feel safer on THF :X

Leonlionheart

05-04-2011, 08:54 PM

wait...what? 5k ukko's every 3-8 seconds?
now explain me pls how u get 50tp in 1,5-4 seconds with a 482 delay weapon.anyway u wouldn't even need /sam for solo light, sc window is 1-5 seconds after last ws, so if u time it right u should be able to do light anytime w/o /sam.

482 with 25% true haste from gear = 6.03 seconds. Add Hasso = 5.22, Haste = 4.05, March x2 (without +2 hands or Royal Guard's Flute) = 2.29 seconds. Atma of the Apocalypse allows TA, that's a minimum of 4.58 seconds for 100 TP.

Retaliation lowers that, I've gotten 100% TP in less time than it takes for Ukko's animation to finish.

Leonlionheart

05-04-2011, 08:56 PM

Yah, those are rare situations but i see your point.

THF Could also pop a Temp item though, or use Perfect dodge. If you're in that kind of situation more than once a fight you probably need a better WHM anyway :P

But again, i do see your point. You feel safer with DNC, I'd probably feel safer on THF :X

Yeah in the end it comes down to personal preference. If you know what you are going into before a fight you usually have no problem with the fight anyway.

Neofire

05-04-2011, 09:00 PM

Too the people hoping things will go back to the old ff11 days you need to wake up from that dream because its not going to happen. Their is a reason why SE made it similar to Abyssea, hmm maybe because ALOT of people liked it how abyssea was done?

Alukat

05-04-2011, 09:13 PM

482 with 25% true haste from gear = 6.03 seconds. Add Hasso = 5.22, Haste = 4.05, March x2 (without +2 hands or Royal Guard's Flute) = 2.29 seconds. Atma of the Apocalypse allows TA, that's a minimum of 4.58 seconds for 100 TP.

Retaliation lowers that, I've gotten 100% TP in less time than it takes for Ukko's animation to finish.

well that is pretty exceptional. triple attack from AA atma has only a 15% proc rate.
u need 2.29 seconds per swing.
ukon gives 13 tp per hit. sub sam 15 stp.
thats 14,95tp per hit.
14,95tp*3 (i'll give u now a 100% proc rate on AA)*2 (rounds) = 89,7tp. ok could work due to the fact that u get some tp back after ws.
now lets calc with your 2,29 seconds per swing for 14,95tp per swing. 85 (guess u get 15tp back after ws)/14,95tp = 5,68 swings ,6 because u cant get tp for a half swing, for 100%. now 6 swings* 2,29 seconds = 13,74 seconds for 100%tp.
a fact is that u don't have a 100% triple attack rate, and that why i highly doubt that u can ws every 3-8 seconds.

btw gimme a brd and i ws every 2-8 seconds >.>

Edit: in best case u need the 4,58 seconds between ws and in worst case u need 13,74 seconds.

Leonlionheart

05-04-2011, 09:22 PM

well that is pretty exceptional. triple attack from AA atma has only a 15% proc rate.
u need 2.29 seconds per swing.
ukon gives 13 tp per hit. sub sam 15 stp.
thats 14,95tp per hit.
14,95tp*3 (i'll give u now a 100% proc rate on AA)*2 (rounds) = 89,7tp. ok could work due to the fact that u get some tp back after ws.
now lets calc with your 2,29 seconds per swing for 14,95tp per swing. 85 (guess u get 15tp back after ws)/14,95tp = 5,68 swings ,6 because u cant get tp for a half swing, for 100%. now 6 swings* 2,29 seconds = 13,74 seconds for 100%tp.
a fact is that u don't have a 100% triple attack rate, and that why i highly doubt that u can ws every 3-8 seconds.

btw gimme a brd and i ws every 2-8 seconds >.>

Edit: in best case u need the 4,58 seconds between ws and in worst case u need 13,74 seconds.

+2 war body is 8 stp, rajas ring is 5, brutal is 1. that's a 6hit. VV allows even more leeway.
I thought that was a given, Who DOESN'T have those pieces if they have a freaking Ukon? At least a 6hit should be the FIRST THING you do after you get it anyway.

Let's now say the BRD has the March +2 Horn (Like 6k at AH) and the AF3+2 hands (+1 march) I now swing at 1.71 seconds per. Ukko's Fury gives about 17 TP back depending on TA, DA. With 5 hits, that's 8.55 seconds. With 2 TA that's 3.42.

Retaliation is probably a 50% proc rate. Assuming a mob isn't slowed, they usually hit about every 3 seconds, and they DA often, sometimes even TA.

Leonlionheart

05-04-2011, 09:24 PM

Oh, and with +49 STP that's a 5hit, so you have even more chances (Need 2 DA for 3.42 seconds per 100%)

Bhujerba

05-05-2011, 01:48 AM

ALSO FYI, I'm rather positive before the "savior lich king" there were quite a few useless jobs/spec combos in WoW. In fact, there are still a lot of useless(Less-than-useful) spec-combo. also, you act like there aren't a few job/spec combos people prefer over other jobs, yet there are. Bet when you used that WoW comparison you didn't expect to be arguing with someone who knows the game huh? Even in WoW players (good ones) Still opt for the best jobs to get something done, just like we do here. before LK yes there was lol specs in the game , they have yet to achieve a good balance, Ret used to be call LOLRET in TBC just like LOLPUP and I happen to like both styles >.>, but after LK specially after the introduction of DF, I was never, EVER been denied a spot in group, raid or bg due my class or spec.

I do admit its not to an extreme extent to the point a job is 100% Useless, Like PLD is now.thats what i'm saying!! all classes whiners in WoW are crying about 5-10% difference in performance and we all know humans will never stop whining lol, but comparing to FFXI? where job performance varies GREATLY by design! to the point where it become nearly 100% useless if your job doesn't bring to the table just as much as the next one, sure everyone can DD, everyone can proc and every tank can tank, but if you cant proc, DD or tank as good as this "job" your job slot in pt/ally validation will drop to 0 (unless there is free slots yay! :D .......... :()

But even a PLD has a small use, you just need an Ochain and an Almace for it.
so in order for a job to even function you just have to collect BiS gear! you know damn well this is a horrible design >.>.

Secondly, your first quote is hilarious, you act like that hasn't been their goal since day 1, they're just announcing that now as fluff text to give us some idea of their plans. their goal from day 1 has always been to maintain a balance between the jobs (what MMO wouldn't...?), so acting like they're suddenly now just begining to try is ignorant.
umm it wasn't actually...did you read the first paragraph?

Up until now, most job adjustments have been implemented with ease of party-forming in mind. From this point onwards, we plan to shift the focus towards ease of participation in endgame content. The role of each job will also come under review. they only cared to keep the jobs functional enough without making them all appealing in end game, "ease of participation in endgame content" wasn't exactly about the the content itself but about the jobs themselves becoming easier to participate and do well in end game since the entire topic was talking about jobs balance., tho I could see why someone would take that line out of context, thinking what they done in abyssea..:confused:

if you think they cared about jobs back then why do you think it took them 8 years to make them useful and desirable? (which they were never been close), but in 1 year they made all the jobs in a very good position (despite the new flaws they created...)
(what do you think they are shifting from?)

Its harder to fix jobs in FFXI than WoW because they have two fundamentally astronomically different job systems. You may as well be comparing Apples to Race cars.I didn't compare it to class I compare to spec, their roles, DD spec of any class are almost equal in DD department (except to pure classes, 5% difference by design), in FFXI DRK role is only DD same as WAR (pure jobs), why they shouldn't be equal as DD? (SE striving to do this, that's why they are buffing DRK next update)
I was comparing spec to spec in WoW, though I agree the Talent(spec) system technically impose a limit on Hybrid Classes, which in FFXI this limit is nearly non-existing (e.g. 1 min recast between DD and support/healing abilities) , so they have to be just extra careful buffing these jobs (which IMO hardly matter, remind of what happen in WoW when blizzard decided to close the gab between hybrids and pures , the cries reached the skies but after it was done... it wasn't so bad, sigh-.-) , otherwise the same concept apply to jobs roles, in almost any MMO with roles system (Tank/Healer/DD/Support/etc...).

I think this is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay off-topic, I apologize :( plus english is not my main language I also apologize for my rudeness, I just hoped the community would understand and accept equality in Roles and why ppl are asking for it and realize (or know..) that SE "New vision" is actually to reach that goal, its already been decided.

svengalis

05-05-2011, 02:05 AM

Karbuncle

05-05-2011, 02:14 AM

I didn't compare it to class I compare to spec, their roles, DD spec of any class are almost equal in DD department (except to pure classes, 5% difference by design), in FFXI DRK role is only DD same as WAR (pure jobs), why they shouldn't be equal as DD? (SE striving to do this, that's why they are buffing DRK next update)
I was comparing spec to spec in WoW, though I agree the Talent(spec) system technically impose a limit on Hybrid Classes, which in FFXI this limit is nearly non-existing (e.g. 1 min recast between DD and support/healing abilities) , so they have to be just extra careful buffing these jobs (which IMO hardly matter, remind of what happen in WoW when blizzard decided to close the gab between hybrids and pures , the cries reached the skies but after it was done... it wasn't so bad, sigh-.-) , otherwise the same concept apply to jobs roles, in almost any MMO with roles system (Tank/Healer/DD/Support/etc...).

I think this is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay off-topic, I apologize :( plus english is not my main language I also apologize for my rudeness, I just hoped the community would understand and accept equality in Roles and why ppl are asking for it and realize (or know..) that SE "New vision" is actually to reach that goal, its already been decided.

Don't apologize for off topic discussions! This is probably the most interesting thing they've read all day.

Also, on the part I've selected, thats the problem in the comparison. WoW its easy for every job to maintain some Balance, because each job has a variety of ways to play it through specs. Where as in FFXI, we get what we're given, and there is very little "Variety". So its harder to balance.

Thats what I'm sayin'!

And as for the Ochain/Almace part, I didn't say it was easy/right/fair or whatever :| i just said the job wasn't ENTIRELY useless. I still hate that PLD needs Empyreans to be useful, but at the same time, if i had both, It'd be fun :D

Bhujerba

05-05-2011, 02:53 AM

Don't apologize for off topic discussions! This is probably the most interesting thing they've read all day.

Also, on the part I've selected, thats the problem in the comparison. WoW its easy for every job to maintain some Balance, because each job has a variety of ways to play it through specs. Where as in FFXI, we get what we're given, and there is very little "Variety". So its harder to balance.

Thats what I'm sayin'!

And as for the Ochain/Almace part, I didn't say it was easy/right/fair or whatever :| i just said the job wasn't ENTIRELY useless. I still hate that PLD needs Empyreans to be useful, but at the same time, if i had both, It'd be fun :D
I agree and understand you in the balance issue to a point, job utilities in this game are very limited and unique outside of magic spell-set, one might say its harder to balance because of that, but I believe balancing jobs is a lot more easier than you think, specially Pure jobs, besides remember, most of the imbalance in WoW came from trying to balance PvE Vs PvP, but in FFXI they don't have to worry about that, I believe Job balance can be achieved faster and easier, SE just started a year ago (Blizzard took took them 3 years..and that's BLIZZARD)plus we are in a transition yet we are in a very good position and most ppl are happy with their favorite jobs :D , it means SE did something right (contents like abyssea trivialized some jobs still an issue).

Karbuncle

05-05-2011, 03:08 AM

I agree and understand you in the balance issue to a point, job utilities in this game are very limited and unique outside of magic spell-set, one might say its harder to balance because of that, but I believe balancing jobs is a lot more easier than you think, specially Pure jobs, besides remember, most of the imbalance in WoW came from trying to balance PvE Vs PvP, but in FFXI they don't have to worry about that, I believe Job balance can be achieved faster and easier, SE just started a year ago (Blizzard took took them 3 years..and that's BLIZZARD)plus we are in a transition yet we are in a very good position and most ppl are happy with their favorite jobs :D , it means SE did something right (contents like abyssea trivialized some jobs still an issue).

One of the biggest problems with PLD though, is its a job designed for an era of FFXI long passed. Its a blood tank, and blood tanks are just criminally ineffective.

So in order to fix PLD, the job itself in core needs to be rethought. PLD/NIN fixed a lot of PLD's problems by basically removing blood-tanking from the picture. Still, There needs a bit more to be done.

If we could spec our jobs in FFXI to certain things, I'm sure there'd be no obsolete jobs in FFXI too :X, There'd be best combos (durp), but i think no job would be truly obsolete.

Bhujerba

05-05-2011, 03:57 AM

One of the biggest problems with PLD though, is its a job designed for an era of FFXI long passed. Its a blood tank, and blood tanks are just criminally ineffective.

So in order to fix PLD, the job itself in core needs to be rethought. PLD/NIN fixed a lot of PLD's problems by basically removing blood-tanking from the picture. Still, There needs a bit more to be done.

If we could spec our jobs in FFXI to certain things, I'm sure there'd be no obsolete jobs in FFXI too :X, There'd be best combos (durp), but i think no job would be truly obsolete.

yeah PLD is in very critical condition due having direct and indirect problems and it wont be easy to fix :( I think abyssea Stats inflation just made these problems very appearnet some jobs suffered from it (PLD) other jobs got thier weakness removed! (WHM/BLM with MP management), I guess you know better than me on this subject.

MarkovChain

05-05-2011, 08:08 AM

and blood tanks are just criminally ineffective.

Cure 6 ? I don't think you got PLD 's problem. Make sword unsuck and make them really effective against magic (aegis offer nothing) and you will fix pld.

Karbuncle

05-05-2011, 08:11 AM

Cure 6 ? I don't think you got PLD 's problem. Make sword unsuck and make them really effective against magic (aegis offer nothing) and you will fix pld.

Well, I Guess i could have worded it a lot better.

But yeah, I know their problem is damage. I figured everyone knew that :X, I was only pointing out PLD was designed as a "Turtle", (Shitty DMG output, Decent DMG Mitigation), and thats generally not useful in todays FFXI. (Wasn't really very useful back then).

Kinda forget i need to spell things out here :(

Akujima

05-05-2011, 10:07 AM

@ Elexia and Karbuncle, Those are stupid examples in my opinion.

If you played FFXI as long as I have you are missing one indeniable fact aboout the current state of ffxi: choice and variety.

There is none. You could make a silly argument and say "old events still exist" but that further proves you to be absent minded about what I'm saying. Recycling rescources is OK but the difference is that before at 75, you had a huge variety of dfferent endgame activities to chose from. It made the recycling much less apparent and boring.

I'm sorry but using irl comparing to game game warrants you the "fail" card. You can gtfo with that, ok? At 75, If i didnt wanna camp HNM, I had salvage, dynamis, limbus, Nyzul isle, assault and a variety of quests.

Fast forward to now, Although abyssea was fun for the first.. 6-7 months... You have to ask yourself, what variety is there now? Please do't throw that "theres still 9 lvls of cap updates!", Cause thats bs. SE is clearly taking their time not because of balance but because they need funding for ffxiv and theyre trying to milk us. Anyone remember squaresoft?

Now granted, I will give the event a chance because complaining about an event that hasn't been explored yet is pointless, so i'll take that point to heart. What if it is like abyssea though? I think that's really sucky. Sorry, I do. Sure, I can go back and do all the old events, but the gear is useless.

I respect players who enjoy abyssea. and that's all they want to do. Is it really so bad to be getting sick of it and want something different and worthwhile though? I don't trash and tell hardcore abyssea players how much the event sucks, because it doesn't suck.

It suck's it's all there is to do now at lv.90. Adding trials for king gear doesn't imo, justify doing those old events, unless the augments are substantially better than the current and VERY easy to get +2 af3. I'm not holding my breathe on that one. Are you?

Respect my opinion on how ffxi revolving around abyssea type events and old events that are worthless and i'll respect yours regarding how AWESOMELY AWESOME DOING ABYSSEA all the time is^^;

kthxbai

I agree with this post so much, that I had to bump it back up.

Abyssea was cool, but she's right. There was so much different content back during WoTG days, just before Pre-Abyssea. When I actually heard about the raise to Lv99 for the first time, I thought it was an April fools joke. I was also upset, because I was among those players having too much fun pre-endgame 75, that I didn't get to finish or even touch any of the content back in those days.

Albeit, I DID get into some of it. And Campaign, Sky, Sea and Nyzul Isle, were all VERY different, and was a very nice variety for endgame content.

But what I think happened, is that the hardcore minority who plowed through all the content, threatened to quit FFXI if nothing new was added. In effect they scared SE to make some new content and FAST. What we wound up with is Abyssea. What I don't want to end up with, is more Abyssea-like content, that feels like Abyssea, looks like Abyssea and plays like Abyssea.

Did I mention Abyssea?

Akujima

05-05-2011, 10:17 AM

Well, I Guess i could have worded it a lot better.

But yeah, I know their problem is damage. I figured everyone knew that :X, I was only pointing out PLD was designed as a "Turtle", (Shitty DMG output, Decent DMG Mitigation), and thats generally not useful in todays FFXI. (Wasn't really very useful back then).

Kinda forget i need to spell things out here :(

The way I see it, PLD was designed as the job that could take a beating and still stand. Unlike BLM where they would take 2~3 hits and have a dirt nap. The real reason why PLD is obsolete, is because any regular old melee job can tank now, without even having to resort to using any DEF or VIT gear, food, etc.

Back in the day, it wasn't like this. A WAR could tank some low level stuff, but he would have to use some kind of DEF food, DEF gear and Enmity+.

I realize that damage generates enmity, but it's the entire system of boosting damage to ungodly proportions is what has wrecked PLD.

Chocobits

05-05-2011, 10:21 AM

Derailing my own thread for a bit here, apologies. I like the direction it took, with a lot of well thought out discussion, considering the base material to work with in the thread was my butthurt and premature woe.

Anyone heard about Apple spending an entire development cycle to improve their Leopard OS, and released it as "Snow Leopard"? Similar to the Vista/7 thing but without the wallet reaming. I really wish SE would spend a development cycle fixing many of the issues painfully apparent in FFXI, taking a break from throwing regurgitated content at us. Balance the jobs. Reduce NPC conversation redundancy. Work to further improve storage/inventory limitations. Make more things stack-able. Analyze mob AI and fix obvious aberrations like pathing issues and draw in/mode change spam that shouldn't exist. Rework existing spells and job abilities that are currently useless and broken. Balance recast timers on spells/JA to more reasonably reflect the level cap increase. Give BLU a real 2 hour, they've been using Call Wyvern's equivalent for 5 years now. Undo the Modus Veritas nerf which was just a lazy man's fix and rework it in a reasonable fashion. And SERIOUSLY rethink the cost of Brews. Lowering the cost by 90% with an easy to obtain Abyssite was not a wise idea. At least make it cost 500k. For what it is and what it does, it should not be an item you can stockpile (not that making it 500k would seriously impede anyone that actively farms cruor, but it's a start).

Fix the game, balance the jobs and THEN introduce regurgitated content that we'll enjoy all the more because 40% more players can pick the jobs they like to come as, not just the few jobs that are "needed". Do that and I'll stop whining about content altogether.

Akujima

05-05-2011, 10:31 AM

Fix the game, balance the jobs and THEN introduce regurgitated content that we'll enjoy all the more because 40% more players can pick the jobs they like to come as, not just the few jobs that are "needed". Do that and I'll stop whining about content altogether.

I like what you said in this post.

And I agree, because SE is just going to give themselves more work once they've added all this new content, without thinking and pre-planning beforehand on the current state of things. I personally would like to see ALL 20 jobs be useful and welcome to invites for once.

Alukat

05-05-2011, 06:46 PM

Karinya_of_Carbuncle

05-06-2011, 09:13 PM

I realize that damage generates enmity, but it's the entire system of boosting damage to ungodly proportions is what has wrecked PLD.

This. There is no other source of enmity that even comes close to comparing to damage now, and that's why only DDs can tank.

Maybe this is just a product of Abyssea's totally broken DD atmas and it will go away in Voidwatch and other real endgame content.

...Except that Voidwatch has its own atma system, apparently. SE, please give some thought to how you want tanking to work. If you can only hold hate by dealing the most damage then "tank" doesn't even exist as a party role separate from "DD".

Greatguardian

05-06-2011, 09:38 PM

This. There is no other source of enmity that even comes close to comparing to damage now, and that's why only DDs can tank.

Maybe this is just a product of Abyssea's totally broken DD atmas and it will go away in Voidwatch and other real endgame content.

...Except that Voidwatch has its own atma system, apparently. SE, please give some thought to how you want tanking to work. If you can only hold hate by dealing the most damage then "tank" doesn't even exist as a party role separate from "DD".

Except that Enmity has absolutely nothing to do with why Paladin is mid/crap-tier.

JensenM

05-06-2011, 09:55 PM

Those damn abysseans... all standing outside of their gaping maw and what-not. Who do they think they are?

Chocobits

05-10-2011, 11:22 AM

An hour to go. Waiting to see if I was wrong and prematurely dissatisfied, or if I was right-on and Voidwatch is Abyssea -1.

Chocobits

05-11-2011, 11:45 PM

Well, it's official. What say the average person in response to Voidwatch? I asked my LS, and they all pretty much resounded with "Abyssea -1". Oh, and nice job on the racially offensive garbs. Geronimo and Juan Vasquez are NOT amused.

Combine that with the Grounds of Valor introduction. I once joked about SE placing goblin speedhackers all over a zone and making them lvl 80+. I severely wish I hadn't now.

Oh and way to go on the droprate for HQ kings. The people that never got to fight them because of botting now never get to fight them at all. This is completely opposite of "making content available to more players".

NPC placement for Windurst? Someone was up all night eating Shitake mushrooms before implementing that.

And finally: Abyssea inside Dynamis? Really? Using that retarded procing system as the only means of obtaining coins now. The average Dynamis shell that went twice a week before did so because they could only feasibly gather twice a week and worked hard around everyone's schedules to make entrance times compatible. So I don't understand why making coins sparser makes any sense. The people that spam Dynamis because they can enter every day.. should rightfully be able to amass coins to sell or upgrade with. Because they have time to invest. This update in particular is a retarded pain in the ass that hinders social shells from being efficient in Dynamis by.. once again dictating jobs that people NEED to be on, as per Abyssea.

I call timesink, trollery and shenanigans on this entire update.

Cool font though. Needs tweaking though.

Phoenyx

05-12-2011, 02:10 AM

Twille

05-12-2011, 03:51 AM

Well, it's official. What say the average person in response to Voidwatch? I asked my LS, and they all pretty much resounded with "Abyssea -1".

Combine that with the Grounds of Valor introduction. I once joked about SE placing goblin speedhackers all over a zone and making them lvl 80+. I severely wish I hadn't now.

Oh and way to go on the droprate for HQ kings. The people that never got to fight them because of botting now never get to fight them at all. This is completely opposite of "making content available to more players".

NPC placement for Windurst? Someone was up all night eating Shitake mushrooms before implementing that.

And finally: Abyssea inside Dynamis? Really? Using that retarded procing system as the only means of obtaining coins now. The average Dynamis shell that went twice a week before did so because they could only feasibly gather twice a week and worked hard around everyone's schedules to make entrance times compatible. So I don't understand why making coins sparser makes any sense. The people that spam Dynamis because they can enter every day.. should rightfully be able to amass coins to sell or upgrade with. Because they have time to invest. This update in particular is a retarded pain in the ass that hinders social shells from being efficient in Dynamis by.. once again dictating jobs that people NEED to be on, as per Abyssea.

I call timesink, trollery and shenanigans on this entire update.

Quoted for truth, bolded for emphasis. Epic fail on HQ Kings and procs in Dynamis.