Concerns about SCH. [Archive] - FINAL FANTASY XI Forum

Pofo

03-09-2011, 01:24 AM

Alright so, since the release of these forums, I'm happy to see that a few of the issues I'm seeing in SCH are also noticed by others as well. That being said, rather then have 20 posts of complaints and suggestions, it might be better to keep everything in 1 organized topic. I'm glad Square Enix made these forums so we can better voice our oppinions and concerns, knowing that they will be seen and possibly considered.

I'd like to take a quick step back in time and look closely at the 75 cap. During the 75 cap, Scholar was a very diverse job, that was able to keep up with the damage and DoT of BLM, yet able to keep up close to par with WHMs (though whm was always the best healer, as it should be).

However, since the release of the 90 cap, I'm slowly but surely seeing Scholar to be much more underpowered then I remember it back in the 75 cap. With Black Mages having broken abilities like Enmity Douse (100% enmity reset), defensive capabilities like manawall, which are especially broken in places like abyssea where full merit abyssites gives you on average 1800 mp , and even more broken Elemental Celerity (average BLM/RDM casts at 30%), I feel the diversity of my Scholar is slowly diminishing with each and every update.

As far as healing goes, it's no secret that not only is SCH suffering from a lack of Cure V but so is RDM, (but since this topic is mainly about SCH, we won't discuss RDM issues). While I fully support the fact that WHM is the best healer, and it should be, I feel that the healing capabilities of SCH are much lower then they really should be, it really in most cases somes down to "Whm or your screwed" which is pretty discouraging.

All that being said, I'm not making this post for unrealistic requests like "Give SCH manawall and Enmity Douse" or anything like that, just suggestions to keep the job as diverse as possible, but not too strong that it steals the spotlight from jobs like BLM and WHM. Because right now it just feels very underpowered and a very undesireable job to play, I find myself on BLM more then i do SCH nowadays.

To name a few main things I'd like to see SCH get in future updates:

Elemental Celerity (Even if it's not as potent as a BLM's Elemental Celerity): Mainly because before BLMs had EC, they usually casted on average at around 65%, then with the mix of EC and the +2 trial staffs, and Goetia Petasos +2, it's not uncommon for a BLM to cast at 30%, even less if they /SCH and use Alacrity, which is a massive difference, when SCH is still casting at 50-55%. Yes, as SCHs as have Alacrity at our disposal, but I feel like it's a spit in the face that we have to use a stratagem to cast that fast and more or less sacrifice ebullience for conserving stratagems, when BLMs can just fire out nonstop 30% casts.

Comet: As Meteor was announced about a year ago for BLMs, it's pretty obvious they will be getting Comet first, now, since we're only at the 90 cap I can't say whether or not we're getting it or not, but I strongly hope that we do, otherwise it would just be another thing to add to my list of reasons why SCH has been feeling very underpowered lately.

Cure V: I really don't think this needs an explaination, but here you go. As the level cap is increasing, so is the power of the mobs we're fighting, Cure IV is no longer cutting it, I'm not just speaking for SCHs in this sense either but for RDMs as well. It's just pretty much gotten to the point where the mobs are dealing more damage then we can cure, so it's either WHM or Bust.

Merit Stratagems Cost reduced: While most SCHs always 5/5 Stormsurge, that leaves us with room to 5/5 one of the merit exclusive Stratagems, or in my case 1/5 Enlightenment and 4/5 focalization, though, even with 5 stratagems at my disposal, I have a very difficult time finding the benefit in using 2 stratagems for a single spell, I don't think it would be unrealistic to ask that those be cut to 1 stratagem costs.

Adloquium Boost: I love the fact that we get the only regain spell in the game aside from COR's Dice, but I feel 1 TP per tick is alittle underpowered, maybe 2 TP would be alittle better, I don't get alot of use from the spell and I don't care all that much for it, but it's just my oppinion that if it had just a tiny boost like that, more people would get more use out of it.

Storm II spells: While I can somewhat understand this could be somewhat game breaking, with BLMs having a nuking diversity of Agas, Ajas, AM II, etc., I don't really see Storm II spells stealing BLMs spotlight, but still I don't expect Storm IIs to be released anytime soon.

Helix Adjustments: helices are one of SCH's most usefull spells, and one of their strongest, but I'd like to see alittle more changes or gear enhancements toward them, MaB has little to absolutly no effect on Helix, it's soley based off INT that enhances it's based damage, but I'd like to see some sort of modifier that increases it's duration beyond it's current duration cap, or, perhaps in the upcoming 99 cap and the new merit-type system that was mentioned to follow it, there could be Helix IIs, that would allow multiple upgrades for duration.

So those are my oppinions in positive ways that Square Enix could take to improve SCH's functionability, but now I leave the floor to the rest of my fellow SCHs, I want to here your oppinions, what would you like to see for SCH in future updates? What issues do you see in SCH as it currently stands? 6-7 Years ago we would have never imagined we'd have a forum linked directally to square enix, so now that we do, take advantage of it and voice your oppinions!

Sotek

03-09-2011, 01:56 AM

Meh, I was just about to make a thread.

Job Ability ranting:

First off, Tabula Rasa. I would love it if I didn't have to waste half its effect time readying stratagems. Would it be possible to have it automatically put all stratagems in effect? All Stratagems you currently have access to except Accession and Manifestation, that is, since automatically having access to -50% MP and -50% cast time on Cure is pretty worthless when Accession is doubling both, not to mention the unneeded hate spike. Ideally it would give you access to both Light and Dark Stratagems (as well as Addendum spells), since it does give you the effect of both arts anyway.

Libra could do with working from a greater distance, I don't really enjoy running into AoE range just to gauge enmity levels. I'd also quite like more power to control enmity if that's the direction you intend to take SCH. Two spells with +/-5 Enmity was a let down to say the least.

Modus Veritas could do with working again. I understand it needed to be nerfed so people couldn't abuse a method of instant killing mobs, but there has to be a better way than just making it the most worthless Job Ability ever. Honestly, you never really see more than a couple of scholars at an event anyway. Just remove the ability for Modus to stack and make it work again. It always puzzled me why it would be used after casting a Helix spell to begin with, it seems like a much better option to have it give you a status effect that doubles the damage of your next Helix and halves the duration (or lower the duration with merits), since the resulting Helix could be treated differently, maybe it would mean someone can't overwrite it with a weaker Helix, too.

Enlightenment would be a much better Job Ability if it changed you from Addendum: Black to Addendum: White and vice versa. If I need to cast a spell from the opposite Addendum, I generally need to cast more than one.

I think a Job Ability that allows for a a single Stratagem to be used twice would be quite a nice addition. Specifically for Immanence. Plus I just really want a Job Ability called Gemini.

And to go together with the fact that SCH has access to weather via spells, I would love a Job Trait that makes the Obis obtained from Sea, completely worthless. Even make it a level 45 Job Trait to give more incentive towards /SCH. That or increase the drop rate of organs, because I've long since had it with that quest.

Pofo

03-09-2011, 02:09 AM

Ah yes, I forgot about the major issues with Modus Veritas "missing" nearly everything in existance. While I agree a Trait that allows us to have a 100% weather proc would be great, I'm having a strong feeling that if they end up +3'ing Staffs for trials, we will probably have the Obi effects added onto them, which in my case is a huge inventory saver regaurdless because I'm one of the few who actually trialed all 6 Elemental nuking staffs to their +2 versions lol. All speculation though, that's just what I'd like to see added to the +3 versions if they decide to continue them, or more affinity dmg... which would be just broken.

Digi

03-09-2011, 02:29 AM

Having leveled both BLM and SCH I see some interesting points here, however SCH was a very powerful job at level 75. To powerful, and personally I think the B+ skill in elemental magic is hurting the job past level 75. As for Cure 5 I'm not sure I'm for it personally. Its not that it's a bad idea it's just that I don't see how it separates us from WHM or RDM or BLM.

I think new helixes or fixing current helixes is needed and new spells that makes SCH stand out from BLM and WHM. And lastly I think they need to raise the number of stratagems as well. SCH gets T5 nukes, so I personally feel its fine when doing spike damage.

Sotek

03-09-2011, 02:50 AM

Oh Christ, how could I forget:

A full spell list please.

When Scholar got Aquaviel/Blink/Stoneskin/etc I really started to gain hope for this. I'm not suggesting Scholar gets every white and black magic spell in the game, but there are a couple that would be really appreciated. Haste (and remove that block on Accession + Haste so I can Accession + Perpetuance + Haste /drool), Phalanx, Bind, Gravity, Paralyze, Slow, Silence, Poison I~II, Bio I~II, Dia I~II, Banish I~III and Flash.
Some of them are debatable, but the majority are spells we'd have from subjob regardless, it seems pointless not having them on main. Enfeebles specifically irk me since SCH has what? Four native enfeebling spells with a B+ Enfeebling skill. Same rational for the Divine Magic options, I never understood why Light Arts gave me Divine skill when I had no spells natively (and even from subjob half the time).

Pofo

03-09-2011, 02:56 AM

The same reason RDM gets a divine magic skill, but then again, iirc RDM used to get flash without a sub job back in the day.

Sotek

03-09-2011, 03:05 AM

Dia used to be Divine magic as well iirc, but a sort of moot point since it just leads me to arguing that RDM should get Divine Magic spells.
My main reason for wanting Banish III and Flash is simply because I'd like to be able to be more versatile when it comes to procing !!s. It hardly takes away from White Mage or Paladin since Scholar would still lack Holy and Banishga, as we similarly lack AM and Elementalga spells.

Krystal

03-09-2011, 04:12 AM

Frankly i think a new stratagem should be introduced with the new merit system that allows sch to AOE elemental nukes. that would be a great addition to the sch's abilities. everything else has been pretty much covered in this thread.

Pofo

03-09-2011, 04:24 AM

I thought about that too, but then I thought about all the crying and complaining BLMs would do over the fact that we'd have Aga V's and Aga IV's while they have Ajas. Maybe if they just alter Manifestation to allow that, so BLM/SCH would have the option as well, then that might be a realistic idea. If you remember, in the fight for our Scholar's M.board, the guy we fight was able to utilize Blizzard III with Manifestation and it came out as Blizzaga III (though it was pathetically weak). Also iirc, All-Seeing Onyx Eye was one of the only mobs in the game that can cast Helix, stating that in some way he's a SCH, and all of his nukes, from Thunder IV, etc and his AMs like Flare, all came out as AoE.

Sotek

03-09-2011, 04:47 AM

Well, in the AF3 fight Ulbrecht was wielding a Blood-red Grimoire. And All-Seeing is a NM, which generally play by different rules.
But if you wanted to make a Stratagem that makes nukes AoE, you could simply have it so it has a significant damage reduction. Manifestation doubles cost and cast time, hypothetically you could just slap "halves damage" on it too and go with that (a real number would need to be tested, I doubt halving damage would be at all balanced).

Just to amend my Tabula Rasa suggestion now that I've been reminded, in the AF3 fight once Ulbrecht used Tabula Rasa his Stratagems would not wear off. That seems like a much better solution to my issue than just having all of them active when under the effect of it.

Pofo

03-09-2011, 05:13 AM

Awhile back i thought about them adding the Blood Grimoire but I couldn't really place how it would fit in withSCH's mechanics, I considered it being a mixture of Addendum Black and White with better stratagems but then why even have Addendum Black/ White if they made an all in 1. I'm sure they have big plans for SCH, we still have 9 levels to go, but hopefully something mentioned in this topic makes a difference.

Siiri

03-09-2011, 07:14 AM

I don't understand how anyone can think Sch getting the ability to AOE elemental spells wouldn't be hugely overpowered. Right now the only unique spells Black Mages get are the ga and ja lines, except for AM and AMII which are pointless due to the advent of T5 spells. Scholars already get a ton of job abilities to help their black arts, and have non stop MP with the sublimation changes. Why do people not think a specialist like Black Mage should not have some unique spells? In the original post it is stated White Mage should be the best healer, why do people want to make Scholar a better nuker than Black Mage? Is it because Dark Arts are more exciting than healing?

Scholar is a hybrid, not a specialist. Can people not think of unique suggestions instead of taking more spells and abilities from existing jobs? I think Scholar has been one of the most aggressively updated jobs, and really doesn't need anything added to the Dark Arts side. Light arts probably could use a buff, but I worry if it gets Cure 5 it again overshadows White Mages.

Terrial-Cerberus

03-09-2011, 07:59 AM

To be honest for myself personally, the only real think SCH needs is a help in the single target cure department. ie Cure V. I don't think this will take away from the WHM due to gear choices. Most WHM Gear is getting Cure Potency +X% where SCH does not, not to add Affectus Solice where the cure also lands a bonus Stoneskin on the target of the cure spell.

I personally am starting to dislike SCH because of the fact that we can't keep up as a healer, tending to lead us down the single target BLM route where we're only asked to heal in XP parties if that. Even chain healing Cure IVs back to back to back wont do the trick, there's too much of a cooldown between castings to make it effective.

Rambus

03-09-2011, 08:17 AM

I agree that SCH needs changing. There are a lot of imbalances ever since 80 came out with job vs. job but since this is about SCH here is my concerns for SCH while trying to have balance concern with the other jobs.

A lot of things said here I agree with already so I would like to say I support them.
About cure V, this spell needs to be given to any job that has cures for a main now. Logic of progression with the fact you’re seeing people in abyssea up to 3-4k hp reflects this is a must. All I can say is drop the static enmity on cure V that exists now. Give WHM an enmity down for cures as a trait that works outside current enmity caps. Giving such a trait and dropping the enmity rules for cure V will allow it to be reasonable to give cure V to RDM, PLD and SCH.

AS said earlier tabula rasa has too much time wasted using the other job abilities? Have Alacrity and parsimony atomically activated when under dark arts, and penury, celerity when under light arts. If you have the merit stratagems have those auto trigger as well. Allow light arts and dark arts to be used freely when under Tabula rasa.

Merit stratagems:
First all merit stratagems need to be one charge. Making them cost 2 means you can only use them with tablua rasa.

Altruism: This merit is useless because we have no light base nuke or critical light spell like a light based sleep spell that uses light arts/ addendum: white
Focalization: useless right now because magic accuracy is a joke in the current state of the game
Tranquility: nice concept would be useful with a 1 charge cost.
Equanimity: nice concept would be useful with a 1 charge cost.

Modus Veritas is useless now and a useless merit after the changes made to it.

Enlightement:
Does not follow the game description in what it does, it needs to be changed where you can like cast Reraise II that costs 135 mp under black arts.

Savant's pants +1/+2:
Going from +1 to +2 is not a real upgrade. In general this gear is useless because like I said before magic accuracy is a joke with the game in the current state. I also find it a bit unfair that gear like this is just an Enfeebling macro. Having too much situational gear like this is part of the reason we still have inventory space issues.

Savant's Gown +2:
It’s really hard for casual gamers to know what the enhancement is and even for hard core gamers it’s not an easy thing to test and takes a lot of time to do so. Please give more information on what it does please.

Savant's bonnet +1/+2:
This gear I used as an Ebullience macro and Enhancing magic. I would not mind toning down the bonus for Ebullience if you add real nuking stats on it like INT and MAB so it can be used more often. Like what I said about the SCH pants, too much situational gear like this is why people continuously complain about inventory issues.

Set bonuses do not do enough to agure full set over macro changes. If you want to keep the set as is then the set bonus needs to be better.

A way to do AoE light enfeebling magic like making silance AoE
A way to dark enchaacing magic to get the bonuses of perpetuance.

AoE haste, No reason not to allow it since say whm/sch can still AOE haste and stoneskin when needed.

MrButter

03-09-2011, 08:17 AM

Rambus

03-09-2011, 08:27 AM

Make A cure potency build, use rapture, aurora storm, light obi/twilight cape, you can hit 1k HP cure easily. then the only real problem is Enmity because you will generate TONS.

I just want some more enmity control. that's my only gripe with my sch.

that and yes Libra needs to be 20 range like spells.
That reminds me, cure VI needs to be changed too so SCH is not boken with the best cure spell (cure V) + being able to buff it like that.

Raksha

03-09-2011, 10:18 AM

Make A cure potency build, use rapture, aurora storm, light obi/twilight cape, you can hit 1k HP cure easily. then the only real problem is Enmity because you will generate TONS.

I just want some more enmity control. that's my only gripe with my sch.

that and yes Libra needs to be 20 range like spells.

I have that build and it still isnt enough. Outside abyssea Cure4 is still pretty acceptable, but you really can't spam it back to back (with or without rapture) and in an emergency you really dont have time to hit that rapture macro.

EDIT: Oh yeah I think Dark Arts is fine.

Daniel_Hatcher

03-09-2011, 11:02 AM

Tezz

03-09-2011, 01:48 PM

Anything that continues to make SCH spells unique. Our Light-Arts side is mostly copy/paste from existing spells.
It would be nice if they added at least 2 more light/dark unique spells.

Eric

03-09-2011, 02:58 PM

MrButter

03-09-2011, 03:28 PM

Can you explain how anything will be made weaker by giving SCH more spells? I don't see how making SCH better automatically makes other jobs weaker. RDM will still be exactly the same. That's like saying that making PUP better automatically makes BST and SMN weaker.

Look at Final fantasy 14 and you see what happens when every job has roughly the same abilities.

there are no jobs. Everything is the same. And if you keep up with 14's Development Plan, increasing class uniqueness has become a very high priority.

Scholar has always been treading the fine line between powerful and Broken. It doesn't need any kind of substantial buffing at this point, barring enmity control which i previously mentioned. Furthermore Scholar was not necessarily about Unique spells, it was about using existing spells in new ways through stratagems. Even then it got it's own set of unique buffs and unique DoT spells, and continued in the level cap advances to get it's own unique buffs related to enmity and even regain. It is very much set apart from the three original mage classes. The -Only- point i agree on: Native Access to Banish and possibly Holy might be appropriate, Though I'd probably say only under the effects of addendum: white.

P.S. in case u hadn't noticed, the new jug pets for BST coupled with the fact that BST itself gets respectable DD gear has made it a much better pet job than PUP, who's pet by comparison is now quite weak, even though PUP itself has become a more vivacious damage dealer. Furthermore the only advantage SMN has, and it is a great boon to the job, is it's lack of enmity/tp generation. It's over all damage parse is still, however, less than a BST these days. So it's 'exactly like' BST becoming much better has made PUP in SMN weaker. They are weaker by comparison to BST.

Sotek

03-09-2011, 05:37 PM

The issue with giving that, regardless of if they are subjob is two things.

1. It'll weaken RDM and other jobs who get them, for example: Give them all those spells and the only Enfeebling Spell RDM has left is Addle.
2. It'll weaken the point of a majority of jibs.

Huh? Red Mage will still have t2 Enfeebles, Saboteur and En spells to its name. Basic enfeebles aren't even Red Mage spells, they're Black Mage and White Mage spells. I'm just tired of not having certain spells depending on my subjob. If I want Haste, I lose Bio, Bind, etc. That will change come 99 with sub Red Mage gaining Haste, but even then if I want Stun I'll lose Paralyze, Dia, etc.
The way I see Scholar, it should be able to do everything just to a lesser extent. Black Mage can nuker harder than Scholar can now. White Mage would still manage being a better healer even if we got Cure V (with enmity generation greater than Cure IV that is). Scholar is a good enfeebler, but I can hardly say that when the only enfeebles we get are Sleep, Dispel and Break. Regardless of Scholar getting Paralyze/Bind/Blind/etc, Red Mage would still be better at enfeebling, I see no reason for Scholar not to have those spells at the very least.

@Enmity control. I don't really think it actually is needed in FFXI anymore. White Mage has a ridiculously low rate of enmity gain with Cure V+ and Black Mage can completely wipe its hate free. Most damage dealers can tank as well so they don't really need to worry about enmity either.
Spells that give buffs based on enmity could be interesting however. Something along the lines of a spell greatly increases the damage you deal if you have 80% enmity. Something like that would be an incentive to controlling enmity. Scholar would need more enmity based spells to go with it, say two spells, one that gives +1% enmity and one that gives -1%, but at least then I'd feel that Libra is a useful ability that I should be using with such spells if only to ensure people are dealing optimal damage. As it is now, the Animus spells don't require you to use Libra at all and Libra itself is pretty worthless since enmity control isn't a particularly large issue.

Agerknux

03-09-2011, 06:49 PM

As my friend once told me, sch seems to be a confused rdm at this point in time. SE has been trying to make every job unique and adding aga-like strategem and Cure V would just make it more of the same.
What would give sch more of a unique feel is possibly a supportive helix spell, maybe a cure-helix type spell that would have the hate of a spell but regen in large chunks equal to amount of cure V~VI.
Helix spells are also something that got me into sch, which is basically a high tier nuke without all that hate jazz.
My sch is pretty much is sitting in my mh because there are other jobs that do what sch can do, but way better.

Agarak

03-09-2011, 08:18 PM

I started SCH `cuz of it´s unique weather and helix spells. I don´t want more spells of BLM/WHM/RDM. I want more unique spells.

Weather T2 / Enfeebling:
Just another idea. Let´s say we cast Firestorm II on a mob his resistance against Ice spell DMG will be increased by 10% but the resistance against Water spell DMG gets a 10% decrease. With Stormsurge merits the mobs corresponding stat (STR in this case) will be decreased.

Helix T2:
This could work like a mix of Helix and the NIN elemental wheel. So when we cast Pyrohelix II on a mob it lowers the enemies resistance against Water spells as long as the Helix is on the mob.

Sotek

03-09-2011, 08:43 PM

I started SCH `cuz of it´s unique weather and helix spells. I don´t want more spells of BLM/WHM/RDM. I want more unique spells.

I don't want more Black magic or White magic spells, I just want the basic ones that we should have regardless. Without exception they're all obtainable via one subjob or another, I'm hardly asking that we gain Ancient Magic spells, none of them would technically be new to Scholar and in all instances the main job that we derive them from has access to stronger versions regardless.

Yes I'd want new Scholar specific spells as well, but I highly doubt it takes long for preexisting spells to be given to Scholar. It's not like SE has to pick between giving Scholar something new and giving it something it should have had three years ago, or maybe I imagined everything we got last update except Stoneskin/Blink/etc. (which was a bloody good update as I recall).

Agarak

03-09-2011, 09:16 PM

Yeah, well, you´re right. We should really get the standard spells. That won´t break the game. The main jobs will still be the best in what they do. With Stoneskin/Blink/etc. they made a step in the right direction. Now we can just hope that we get the other spells too.

Darkwizardzin

03-10-2011, 12:02 AM

Daniel_Hatcher

03-10-2011, 12:46 AM

Huh? Red Mage will still have t2 Enfeebles, Saboteur and En spells to its name. Basic enfeebles aren't even Red Mage spells, they're Black Mage and White Mage spells. I'm just tired of not having certain spells depending on my subjob. If I want Haste, I lose Bio, Bind, etc. That will change come 99 with sub Red Mage gaining Haste, but even then if I want Stun I'll lose Paralyze, Dia, etc.
The way I see Scholar, it should be able to do everything just to a lesser extent. Black Mage can nuker harder than Scholar can now. White Mage would still manage being a better healer even if we got Cure V (with enmity generation greater than Cure IV that is). Scholar is a good enfeebler, but I can hardly say that when the only enfeebles we get are Sleep, Dispel and Break. Regardless of Scholar getting Paralyze/Bind/Blind/etc, Red Mage would still be better at enfeebling, I see no reason for Scholar not to have those spells at the very least.

@Enmity control. I don't really think it actually is needed in FFXI anymore. White Mage has a ridiculously low rate of enmity gain with Cure V+ and Black Mage can completely wipe its hate free. Most damage dealers can tank as well so they don't really need to worry about enmity either.
Spells that give buffs based on enmity could be interesting however. Something along the lines of a spell greatly increases the damage you deal if you have 80% enmity. Something like that would be an incentive to controlling enmity. Scholar would need more enmity based spells to go with it, say two spells, one that gives +1% enmity and one that gives -1%, but at least then I'd feel that Libra is a useful ability that I should be using with such spells if only to ensure people are dealing optimal damage. As it is now, the Animus spells don't require you to use Libra at all and Libra itself is pretty worthless since enmity control isn't a particularly large issue.

T2 enfeebles come at the cost of Merits, so they shouldn't truly be included. The reason they have all those spells is due to the fact they are the Enfeebler... SCH is a battle tactician who learned to use the elements to their advantage despite not being a true mage. Giving them the spells you've said will make them RDM 2.0 without the melee ability. It's 100% not the way SCH should go, it also negates every single jobs benefit as subjob.

They should go down the line off maximising SCH as a unique job, RDM was supposed to be the middle between BLM WHM and WAR, so RDM should be improved in that way. SCH just shouldn't.

Sotek

03-10-2011, 01:13 AM

Seems to me you guys want sch to not have it weak points. Sch already has so much that other jobs don't. To ask for rdm only spells like haste and for Elemental Celerity is nothing short of greed.

The point of the Sch job is that it doesn't have everything blm,whm,rdm has but has a general scope from each area and can increase its power with ja.

Besides SE already gave you those basic spells (blink and stoneskin say hi) so you shouldn't ask for more.

The only thing I think sch needs is cure 5 other than that its a powerful and useful job already so stop trying to make it overpowered.

As far as I know no one has asked for Elemental Celerity and Haste isn't Red Mage only. We've been given basic enhancing spells yes, that's pretty much the only reason I really want basic enfeebling spells now.

T2 enfeebles come at the cost of Merits, so they shouldn't truly be included. The reason they have all those spells is due to the fact they are the Enfeebler... SCH is a battle tactician who learned to use the elements to their advantage despite not being a true mage. Giving them the spells you've said will make them RDM 2.0 without the melee ability. It's 100% not the way SCH should go, it also negates every single jobs benefit as subjob.

They should go down the line off maximising SCH as a unique job, RDM was supposed to be the middle between BLM WHM and WAR, so RDM should be improved in that way. SCH just shouldn't.

Why the hell shouldn't merits be counted? Because they're merits they don't exist? That's ridiculous. Even then, Saboteur pretty much makes Red Mage a better enfeebler regardless, or do Job Abilities not count because the Red Mage might not have reached the level to use it?
I'll repeat it again, but giving Scholar basic spells that aren't even Red Mage specific doesn't mean it can't have its own unique role. If they gave Scholar t1 enfeebles it's not going to become an enfeebler and nothing else, it will remain exactly as what it is now. Unless you care to explain how giving spells that we already have via subjob would change a thing. It's not a matter of overpowering the job, it's just a matter of completion. There is no reason for Scholar not to have such basic spells.

Darkwizardzin

03-10-2011, 03:03 AM

As far as I know no one has asked for Elemental CelerityLook at the very first post on this thread.
also you missed my whole point: sch has everything it needs to do it's job and do it well (well almost everything). To say it needs all the "basic" spells that it doesn't have is pretty petty.

Can a sch nuke well: yes
Can a sch enhance well: hell yes
Can a sch enfebble well: yes
Can a sch heal well: no but only because its lacking 1 spell (cure 5)

So the only thing sch has problems with is healing (which im sure will be fixed in the next level cap) and sometimes hate management. (which only bad sch have problems with)

Your asking for sch to get spells it not only doesn't need but is giving even more power to an already powerful job.

Considering the fact that other jobs balance wise are not doing very well (im looking at you Pup,pld and to a lesser extent any dd job that isn't war, mnk, nin) you should be thankful of where the sch job is right now.

Sotek

03-10-2011, 03:38 AM

Your asking for sch to get spells it not only doesn't need but is giving even more power to an already powerful job.

Christ... Please explain how spells I already have access to via subjob would be any more powerful if I have access to them on main? Seriously. I'm not suggesting Scholar becomes stronger at all by giving it basic enfeebles, I'm simply suggesting it because it's a matter of completion and there is no reason not to have them.
The only reason anyone has been able to bring up for not having them is that it takes away from Red Mage, but you're all apparently lacking the knowledge that most Scholars are subbing Red Mage and have these spells almost all the time. Not to mention that Red Mage has both a second tier of enfeebles as well as a Job Ability that enhances its enfeebles.

Considering the fact that other jobs balance wise are not doing very well (im looking at you Pup,pld and to a lesser extent any dd job that isn't war, mnk, nin) you should be thankful of where the sch job is right now.

Yes, other jobs could do with adjustments. I'm not posting in the Paladin section asking for Scholar to get anything new though, am I? Or is it against forum rules for me to make suggestions for Scholar in the Scholar section?

I'm well aware asking for these basic spells is a petty suggestion, I'm fairly sure I've said several times that I'm only suggesting it because Scholar also got Blink/Stoneskin/etc. recently, which were in the exact same situation as enfeebles. Suggesting that it would be a game breaker to give Scholar the spells (which I apparently have to keep reminding, Scholar has anyway from subjobs) is preposterous though.

Darkwizardzin

03-10-2011, 03:47 AM

Sotek

03-10-2011, 04:06 AM

Fair enough your entiled to your opinion but if SE gives sch those enfebbling spells then there would be almost no point of subing /rdm anymore (only things left would be refresh convert and fast cast) and to be honest it would give sch more power because then sch could full time /whm sub and have all enfebbles and haste and more healing tools.

I don't think SE would ever be willing to do that tbh... there would never be a good reason never to change subs and sch would be able to have everythng from both sub jobs.

Subbing White Mage gives you Haste already. Haste isn't Red Mage only. The same with half the enfeebles.
And what extra healing tools exactly? Cura, Curaga and Curaga II are all virtually worthless. Unless I'm missing some other curative spells I'd gain from subbing White Mage I hardly see this as being game breaking.
Heck, if I need Haste I currently do sub White Mage. I'm missing out on Gravity (completely worthless these days), Bind, Blind and Bio. Bio II is probably the only one I care about since it procs !!.

Darkwizardzin

03-10-2011, 04:22 AM

Subbing White Mage gives you Haste already. Haste isn't Red Mage only. The same with half the enfeebles.
And what extra healing tools exactly? Cura, Curaga and Curaga II are all virtually worthless. Unless I'm missing some other curative spells I'd gain from subbing White Mage I hardly see this as being game breaking.
Heck, if I need Haste I currently do sub White Mage. I'm missing out on Gravity (completely worthless these days), Bind, Blind and Bio. Bio II is probably the only one I care about since it procs !!.

Your forgeting about Divine Seal and you also again missed my point. I know subing /whm gives you haste my point was that you would never have to sub /rdm again if SE gave us all the enfebbling spells. Thats as if you took /whm and /rdm and merged them into one super sub. :/

The point of sub jobs is so you can add a few things to make your job better (but you can't get everything because different subs have different things to offer) giving sch enfebbling spells nativly would kindof miss the whole point of subing /rdm to begin with. If that happened no one would sub /rdm again and sch would have so much more spells to work with for free...... that isn't fair to other jobs.

Sotek

03-10-2011, 04:34 AM

Convert and Fast Cast are far better tools than you're giving them credit for. Then there's the minor DoT boost from Accession -En spells.

Once sub Red Mage does gain Haste, I'll never sub anything again. It seems like circular logic to say you can't give Scholar native enfeebles because it would mean we'd only sub for example, White Mage, when the alternative is only ever subbing Red Mage.

Momotarotaru

03-10-2011, 04:37 AM

Anyone try to use SCH/NIN ? (since SCH got Stoneskin ?)

Sotek

03-10-2011, 04:42 AM

Anyone try to use SCH/NIN ? (since SCH got Stoneskin ?)

Only really useful when soloing, in which case you don't really have time to be casting Stoneskin and whatnot. Scholar/Ninja will never play out like Red Mage/Ninja, Scholar lacks enough Fast Cast and -Interruption to actually tank with Utsusemi.
Duo+ it's almost certainly worthless.

Darkwizardzin

03-10-2011, 05:00 AM

Hey momo how have you been lately?

Daniel_Hatcher

03-10-2011, 05:35 AM

Christ... Please explain how spells I already have access to via subjob would be any more powerful if I have access to them on main? Seriously. I'm not suggesting Scholar becomes stronger at all by giving it basic enfeebles, I'm simply suggesting it because it's a matter of completion and there is no reason not to have them.
The only reason anyone has been able to bring up for not having them is that it takes away from Red Mage, but you're all apparently lacking the knowledge that most Scholars are subbing Red Mage and have these spells almost all the time. Not to mention that Red Mage has both a second tier of enfeebles as well as a Job Ability that enhances its enfeebles.

The point is having them sub job only makes you want to sub job it, that's how it works.

If you get everything naturally then there would be no need for subjobs, it's regardless if they're basic spells or not. Warp and Teleport spells are basic, you still need to /blm and /whm to get them.

Convert, Fast Cast, and all the enfeebles is a reason to /rdm.

Delsus

03-10-2011, 06:15 AM

I have loved sch ever since I took it through the dunes, when I got to 75 and took it to events I loved it even more, however now it does seem to be lacking, in the healing department i cant count the amount of times I have had my party saying "dont spam cure 4, it generates too much hate" when theres nothing else we can do, alot of the time all I can do is keep animus minuo up to help with the huge amount of hate cure 4 generates.

Also what they could add on the dark arts side is to give us the ability to aoe elemental spells, but hugely lower magic attack when used with manifestation, this idea is mainly if SE wants to keep us in abyssea after 99 so we atleast have 1 more spell to proc yellow (it should work in the same way as -agas for procing), it would make the spell useless for damage therefore not breaking sch but we could use it to proc yellow a little better.

On the topic of making useful spells/abilities perhaps if they add the crimson grimore as a merit ability in the new 99 merit system "uses all stratagem charges, duration 30 seconds, recast: (somthing not too game breaking maybe 20 mins), greatly enhances spells cast using the correct grimore"

With it using all strategem charges low duration and possibly high recast they could make it so spells cast using the correct grimore would do more dmg/heal better/enhance better/DoTs and debuffs last longer, it would not be spammed for if you think proactively and want to conserve stratagems, if this was implemented because of the nature of the crimson grimore is like in the sch story it would have to be quite potent but the downsides like high recast and using all strategems would have to be high to ensure its not game breaking.

Maybe instaid of duration 30secs possibly duration 1 spell cast to make it for those OMGWTF moments but it would need balaning carefully or it could easily break sch.

Also we need cure 5 asap.

Crossarius

03-10-2011, 06:23 AM

Enfeebles cannot possibly be a reason to sub rdm as they are not rdm exclusive, with the exception of gravity. So it does come down to convert and fast cast.
Everytime I use /WHM I feel crippled in damage because I don't have any native MAB job trait. I use /WHM exclusively for situations where I have to cover Staff and Club Ws (which is stupid design imo, but a different topic) and I have no real reason to use /BLM as I feel that fast cast and convert have much more impact.

My Jobs are SCH, SMN and BLM and I only consider the first two of them my mains. With the lack of a more potent cure I just cannot always keep up with the damage dealt. Accession + Stoneskin is not as strong as it used to be back in the 75 days.
With a raptured Cure IV + aurorastorm + obi + cape and a cure potency atma I can break 800+ HP healed but it is still restricted by the number of charges available.
An overhauled version of Cure V (kill the low enmity cap for not WHMs, as it has been suggested a million times), we could at least alternate between cures.

As of for addendum:black I hope that once we learned all t5 nukes, they lift the need for addendum:black for t4 nukes.

Rambus

03-10-2011, 06:24 AM

I do not know why BLM got stuff like Elemental Celerity and man dose. I do not like how BLM is able to cast faster without arts then adding blm/sch since sch got stoneskin.

I thought the idea was BLM was supposed to nuke harder spell for spell but SCH would be able to cast faster. Right now though its a bit backwards like aero V from SCH being able to match blizzard V from a blm. The idea of balance is really out the window ever since the game came 80, seem really hard to bring back the balances we had at 75.

As of for addendum:black I hope that once we learned all t5 nukes, they lift the need for addendum:black for t4 nukes.

I said this before on a different fourm as well, it would go though the line like around RDMs have them:

stone IV should read:
BLM 68/ RDM 77
SCH 70 ( Addendum black) SCH 76.
and keep going like that for the other IV spells

Crossarius , you do bring up a point with stoneskin being really nice at 75 now it holds a lot less value. SE really needs to start lifting more caps like the cap on stoneskin. those caps are for a game at 75, not 90 or 99

Silvers

03-10-2011, 07:31 AM

The point is having them sub job only makes you want to sub job it, that's how it works.

If you get everything naturally then there would be no need for subjobs, it's regardless if they're basic spells or not. Warp and Teleport spells are basic, you still need to /blm and /whm to get them.

Convert, Fast Cast, and all the enfeebles is a reason to /rdm.

What's your definition of a basic spell? Teleports and warps are job specific/unique, no other job has them.
In fairness, SCH should have a couple native enfeeble magics other than Sleeps and Break. What was the point of Light Arts giving a boost to enfeeble magic skill if they don't have a enfeebling white magic natively. This argument should have been make when they 1st done the adjustment. On the same note, why does SCH have divine magic skill (a fairly high one at that) but not divine magic at all natively? If the skills are native, they should be supported by having spells without the need of a sub. I understand the story with RDM, but SCH came long after. There is no reason for having skills without spells to go with them. It's like having a native weapon skill rating on a job, and your job can not equip any weapon associated with your skill.

Daniel_Hatcher

03-10-2011, 08:03 AM

What's your definition of a basic spell? Teleports and warps are job specific/unique, no other job has them.
In fairness, SCH should have a couple native enfeeble magics other than Sleeps and Break. What was the point of Light Arts giving a boost to enfeeble magic skill if they don't have a enfeebling white magic natively. This argument should have been make when they 1st done the adjustment. On the same note, why does SCH have divine magic skill (a fairly high one at that) but not divine magic at all natively? If the skills are native, they should be supported by having spells without the need of a sub. I understand the story with RDM, but SCH came long after. There is no reason for having skills without spells to go with them. It's like having a native weapon skill rating on a job, and your job can not equip any weapon associated with your skill.

It's a job that's power relies in their choice of support job.

Sotek

03-10-2011, 10:11 PM

It's a job that's power relies in their choice of support job.

Oh joy, this logic again.

There is no choice in sub job for Scholar, enfeebles aren't even a part of that. Convert and Fast Cast alone completely out weigh any other sub job. Divine Seal certainly isn't worth losing Convert for and I may be mistaken but Black Mage offers nothing more than Warp, Stun and 2INT, colour me unimpressed. You could give Scholar main every single Red Mage spell from 1-99 and it still wouldn't make a difference, the only jobs it truly gives more choice to is White Mage and Black Mage.

I'm not going to bother saying that they're spells we'll have regardless again, I've said it's simply a matter of completion enough, you can win this argument if you like.

@Elemental Celerity, since I didn't touch on it earlier. Scholar already has this, it's called Alacrity, it halves casting time. Somewhat related to the above, lowering the required level for EC could potentially allow /Black Mage without a net loss of Fast Cast, making the idea of subbing it slightly more respectable.

Tazz

03-10-2011, 11:14 PM

Lets us AoE Silence Paralyze Warp Slow Spike spells all those lol - I dont see why hastega is nerfed either lol. AoE elemental magic would be awesome and still not overpowered because BLM have -ja spells now too :) Elemental Celerity, although great for blm has forced me into doing all my staff trials on blm, not on SCH. I cast to slow lol

Rambus

03-11-2011, 08:17 AM

I would also request weather II spells ( a double weather effect) since people are starting to sub or weather spells. you could change it so all weather I spells are subable so we can get weather II.

about SJ

having MAB II, enfeebles ( gravity is BIG) is enough to agure that /rdm is needed to complete the job.

to me SCH should be support mage job ( or should be) though crowed control , self SCing that would allow blms to mb stronger spells and so on. /RDM is needed for all that. abyssea though.... thorws out the need for that, and thats why SCH is not really used, all about procing over anything else.

I see SCH should be the mage from of a COR, able to buff other people while doing damage, we can buff blms wih weather, sc for them, and AoE crowd control, and support a WHM in a tank pt giving aquaviel , stoneskin and phalanx.

but as i said abyssea thows all that out the window and is mroe about what one's self can do, rather then a support, thats why cor, brd and other general support jobs are lacking thier roles inside abyssea.

Panthera

03-13-2011, 05:08 PM

Scholar and Red Mage both need Cure V. Cure IV just isn't cutting it anymore.

Miera

03-15-2011, 07:44 AM

Kashel-Sylph

03-17-2011, 06:30 PM

Klimaform is a great spell, the duration is very small and the recast is very high, A stratagem that increases the duration of spells cast under dark arts for Klimaform/Helixes or maybe just adjusting the recast/duration of this spell would make me happy. (I would spend 2 charges on that before focalization)

Also adjusting the amount of enmity down/up from our new enmity control spells -10/+10? Obviously the Storm II Spells would be so cool, as well as tier II Helixes.

If they don't give us CureV I would be ok with some kind of healing magic crit. job trait occ. doubles healing amount, But then again I have no problems with healing, Cure % set + Obis + Magian staff + Twilight cape.

The other posts in this thread are right about modus veritas... it sucks right now, I love what it was but its essentially useless right now.

Not trying to get SE to overpower SCH Just making suggestions, SCH is my main and i love to play it. Any Improvements would be appreciated.

Hiroshiko

03-18-2011, 12:33 AM

When I learned about SCHs getting the spells Aquavail, Stoneskin and Blink It was a releif to me because honestly, they should have gotten them in the first place, I would like to have acess to Slow, Paralyze, Silence, ect because well we have pretty high enfeebling magic but don't have the natural ability to use enfeebles. Yes, Cure V, though how I have been in many arguements already about how RDMs and SCHs desperately need Cure V, we wont be putting WHMs out of business. God, it upsets me with how people think like that.

WHMs still have acess in Cure VI and they have neat JAs to boot, no one would ever overlook a WHM. However SCHs and RDM are put on the back burner because people scream for Cure V and VIs, I can never get into the good shouts because of this. We have like a D rating in Healing magic and quite frankly, Cure IV just doesn't cut it anymore. Its stressful and frustrating when you are the only healer and your tank is fighting harder mobs and getting the snot beat out of him.

The Cure V issue still worries me a bit. I don’t totally disagree with you, but I feel that many people have overlooked the implications of handing SCH (and RDM too) Cure V without some way of balancing it. I have both WHM and SCH so that’s my comparison point (I know enough about RDM, but not much from experience). Personally, I always preferred healing on WHM just because it was more natural to me, but that aside, SCH always had a lot of tools to improve their healing abilities and have only gained more over the updates.

My issue with Cure V is that before Abyssea, there was only one tier separation between WHMs and the other “main healers” (SCH and RDM). Both SCH and RDM had tools that made them more efficient at healing and thus more desirable in most situations. Even with /SCH, WHMs were sometimes second to RDMs when it came to healing because Cure V (and a lot of the other tools WHM had) wasn’t necessary for things such as experience parties or even Nyzul Isle. In those cases though, what held SCH back was the lack of Haste. Fast-forward to “the Age of Abyssea” and the level 90 cap, the lines have blurred and placement has shifted. WHMs are pretty much required and SCHs and RDMs are struggling to keep up with the healing load. DDs have TONs of HP that need to be healed and damage is exceeding Cure IV. This is where I agree with you, SCH and RDM need something to help them keep up, but neither should shadow WHM because those jobs are hybrids and can bring other things to the table in addition to healing. However, handing Cure V to both mages would bring us back to the one tier separation and potentially displace WHM (I wanted to mention what WHM does have, but that’d make this longer).

Many people like to use the “but WHM has Cure VI argument!;” however, many WHMs (check the forum) agree that Cure VI is not very MP efficient. My Cure V heals about 1000-1100 on average and Cure VI is about 1400-1500, but the MP price is 122 and 205 respectively with Light Arts. In fact, most of the time Cure VI will over cure and waste MP. Couple that the fact that outside of Abyssea, Cure VI isn’t really necessary because most DDs don’t have the HP to warrant its use nor are they taking that amount of damage (similar to Cure V pre-Abyssea). Even with all the Refresh atma that we have available, Cure VI is usually a backup for when Cure V is down and the situation calls for it. Basically, it’s gone from Cure III spam with Cure V as backup to Cure V spam with Cure VI as backup.

Since this is starting to become a wall of text, I’ll cut it short but I have other talking points. If someone sparks one of my other talking points I’ll post my perspective on it, but I hope this can be a constructive discussion. My other points revolve around SCHs stratagems vs. WHMs JAs, Cure potency, and Divine magic triggers, but that could be lengthy… Overall, I agree something needs to be done, but what exactly still eludes me, so I’d like to see what others think. Also, we can’t ignore the world outside of Abyssea because there is still a chance that SE will create events outside again without atma.

Summary (TL: DR): SCH and RDM need something to improve their healing capabilities. However, handing Cure V without some check and balances would bring us back to the days where there was only one tier of separation between WHMs and the other mages. Cure VI isn’t as powerful as it appears due to its inefficiency and being unnecessary out of Abyssea.

P.S. to Miera: Sorry, but I noticed what you said about Healing skill and wanted to correct something. SCH only has a D in healing when Light Arts is not activated, but that skill jumps to a B+ (+15 skill with AF1 legs). Healing magic skill doesn’t have as large of an effect on Cure spells though after a certain point. Cure potency and MND will do a lot more for Cure spells than Healing Magic skill after the cap has been reached.

Momotarotaru

03-18-2011, 04:53 AM

Double post sorry -.-

Momotarotaru

03-18-2011, 04:54 AM

Hey momo how have you been lately?

well busy with Real life sorry for not reply faster (just see your messsage) So I have not on much lately.

I am pretty much happy with SCH.
in my opinion 1. SCH need to have Helix II and more effective Dot method (current version is too slow)
2. SCH main or /SCH need to cast faster a bit, Seem like it very slow compare to all mage in fast cast area now.
3. SCH need Cure V to be best 2nd healer in game. (Of course WHM should get Curaga V too).

Jomen

03-19-2011, 04:13 AM

I only read the first two pages so I'll make a statement using those.

Basically, the argument about Cure V is a very valid one. We need it, we are not the 4th or the 3rd best healers in the game but the second best. Second only to WHM, so why wouldn't we get Cure V since when no one can find a whm they ask a SCH next? But atm the moment, we have problems healing correctly? I don't think so. Use rapture in combination with the af3 and some cure potency (I have a partially finished cure staff) and your cure IVs will reach 800hp healed easy. Yes, cure V and VI can cure much more but for the time being, we have to make due with what we have ^^. That said, we are the second best healers in the game, the second best enfeeblers, the second best nukers. Which all in all, makes us better then every other magician in the game over all. Transitive property and all that haha.

That said, we need a bump in magic. They need to adjust the grimoires to push us to an A now instead of B+. It can even be A- but that would at least get us closer to being at the lvl of healing, nuking, or enfeebling that the big three are at.

On the subject of nuking, I can easily outnuke lolblms but the well geared ones can double and sometimes triple my 2.5k nukes. Yes triple, dude on my server was doing 7.5k blizz Vs regularly ; ;. Anyways, to combat this, we definitely need a speed increase and a mab boost. We got some minor ones but then our traits became more associated with Clear Mind rather than boosts to cure potency or mab. I was thinking something along the lines of:

-Cure potency under White arts: +2% every 10 lvls.
-MAB under dark arts: +2mab/macc every 10 lvls
So at lvl 90 we'd be at 18% cure potency and +18 mab/macc under our grimoires. No, this is not overpowered. WHMs can hit 50%+ cure potency and BLMS can hit 50+ mab. Macc not so much haha. I feel like this would not get us to their lvls but very close to being able to nip at their heels and make them feel pressure.

Now for some things I thought up.
Spells:
-One that nulls enmity direction. As in instead of raising or lowering it makes the enmity stay constant so that no matter the action someone takes, the enmity will stay the same. Put it on a high recast to balance it and make it target the monster. Duration 1 min.
- Give us the tier I-III gas in some form. BLM has received Jas which are essentially a new form of ga. Which means they'll probably be getting a ja II from merits or some other form in addition to ga IVs and meteor. I don't think giving us the other gas will hurt much.
- Cure V, Regen IV, the basic enfeebling series. I can't tell you how dumb it is that we don't get paralyze, gravity, dia, and the others. SCHs were mages built on battle strategy during the crystal wars....so why wouldn't they learn how to use spells that enfeeble at a basic level?

Abilities/traits:
-Elemental celerity
-more strat. charges
-a strategm that reduces enmity generation for the next black or white spell
-a strategm that allows you to use two charges to double an effect. Ex: stack the effect of rapture to do a 100% increase on a cure IV

~Jo

Fetus

03-19-2011, 06:00 AM

I only read the first two pages so I'll make a statement using those.

lol. Way to stay informed.

Basically, the argument about Cure V is a very valid one. We need it, we are not the 4th or the 3rd best healers in the game but the second best. Second only to WHM, so why wouldn't we get Cure V since when no one can find a whm they ask a SCH next? But atm the moment, we have problems healing correctly? I don't think so. Use rapture in combination with the af3 and some cure potency (I have a partially finished cure staff) and your cure IVs will reach 800hp healed easy. Yes, cure V and VI can cure much more but for the time being, we have to make due with what we have ^^. That said, we are the second best healers in the game, the second best enfeeblers, the second best nukers. Which all in all, makes us better then every other magician in the game over all. Transitive property and all that haha.

How many times outside of Abyssea have you actually needed Cure V? If you're having trouble keeping up Stoneskin, Phalanx and/or Regen III on your party, Cure V isn't going to magically fix your lack of skill and Stratagem/MP management. I'm really wondering how you gauge that SCH is "second best" about everything. Game is situational and it's dumb that people keep wanting to rank jobs like it actually means something.

That said, we need a bump in magic. They need to adjust the grimoires to push us to an A now instead of B+. It can even be A- but that would at least get us closer to being at the lvl of healing, nuking, or enfeebling that the big three are at.

Skill means something?

On the subject of nuking, I can easily outnuke lolblms but the well geared ones can double and sometimes triple my 2.5k nukes. Yes triple, dude on my server was doing 7.5k blizz Vs regularly ; ;. Anyways, to combat this, we definitely need a speed increase and a mab boost. We got some minor ones but then our traits became more associated with Clear Mind rather than boosts to cure potency or mab. I was thinking something along the lines of:

-Cure potency under White arts: +2% every 10 lvls.
-MAB under dark arts: +2mab/macc every 10 lvls
So at lvl 90 we'd be at 18% cure potency and +18 mab/macc under our grimoires. No, this is not overpowered. WHMs can hit 50%+ cure potency and BLMS can hit 50+ mab. Macc not so much haha. I feel like this would not get us to their lvls but very close to being able to nip at their heels and make them feel pressure.

No, no, no. Are you talking about nuking inside or outside of Abyssea. Because if you're only doing ~2.5K inside of Abyssea, you're doing something wrong. That's weaksauce. You want to cast faster? Use Alacrity. You want more damage? Use Ebullience. Jesus, it's like you people forget that SCH has Stratagems to use. You people keep demanding that Light Arts and Dark Arts get native bonuses added to them. You seem to forget they already do. Casting/recasting time reduction and MP cost reduction isn't good enough? If you want more, more, more then sub /RDM. More Fast Cast and at least then you'll be getting some Magic Attack Bonus. And if your proposed ideas "would not get us to their level" of skill, then why bother at all? Isn't that the whole point of your endless complaining and demands? To turn SCH into WHM and BLM. Oh, wait...

Now for some things I thought up.
Spells:
-One that nulls enmity direction. As in instead of raising or lowering it makes the enmity stay constant so that no matter the action someone takes, the enmity will stay the same. Put it on a high recast to balance it and make it target the monster. Duration 1 min.

Uh... provide an example of when this will ever be more useful than just using the spells we already have to increase/decrease enmity.

- Give us the tier I-III gas in some form. BLM has received Jas which are essentially a new form of ga. Which means they'll probably be getting a ja II from merits or some other form in addition to ga IVs and meteor. I don't think giving us the other gas will hurt much.

You have no idea what new spells or merits will be available to BLM. Furthermore, if we were to extend the parameters of that idea, we should also get Curaga spells. If you want to play with Curaga, then go play WHM. Or use Accession and any Cure spell. And even if you had access to elemental -ga spells, what use would they be? Oh boy, you can trigger grellow !! in Abyssea. Who cares. Get a BLM to do it. It's not like there aren't 200 online at any given moment, anyway.

- Cure V, Regen IV, the basic enfeebling series. I can't tell you how dumb it is that we don't get paralyze, gravity, dia, and the others. SCHs were mages built on battle strategy during the crystal wars....so why wouldn't they learn how to use spells that enfeeble at a basic level?

You want Paralyze, Gravity, Dia, etc.? Then sub /RDM. Wow, fixed. Cure V, Regen IV... whatever. It's not like SCH actually needs either.

Abilities/traits:
-Elemental celerity
-more strat. charges
-a strategm that reduces enmity generation for the next black or white spell
-a strategm that allows you to use two charges to double an effect. Ex: stack the effect of rapture to do a 100% increase on a cure IV

If you want Elemental Celerity so bad, go play BLM. 5 Stratagem charges on a ridiculously low recast timer isn't good enough? A stratagem that reduces enmity on the next spell... Do you even have SCH at 75+? Have you even looked at SCH merits before?? Lastly, we already have stratagems that enhance potency. Use them.

I'm starting to wonder if you even have SCH leveled?

Siiri

03-19-2011, 06:53 AM

No, no, no. Are you talking about nuking inside or outside of Abyssea. Because if you're only doing ~2.5K inside of Abyssea, you're doing something wrong. That's weaksauce. You want to cast faster? Use Alacrity. You want more damage? Use Ebullience. Jesus, it's like you people forget that SCH has Stratagems to use. You people keep demanding that Light Arts and Dark Arts get native bonuses added to them. You seem to forget they already do. Casting/recasting time reduction and MP cost reduction isn't good enough? If you want more, more, more then sub /RDM. More Fast Cast and at least then you'll be getting some Magic Attack Bonus.

I think Fetus makes a good point here. Scholar already gets Magic Attack Bonus II if it is subbing red mage. Magic Attack bonus II is +24. Black Mage only gets +36 Magic Attack Bonus from MAB V. I am sure most of us realize MAB traits do not stack. So are people suggesting that Dark Arts get a MAB trait independent of the I-V that stacks with sub job? If so, using Hideka example of +16 through dark arts and +24 through red mage they now have +40, 4 more than Black Mage gets. Since scholar uses strategms beyond MAB to enhance the damage of their nukes, giving them more MAB than Black Mage probably isn't a realistic suggestion. If its not going to stack with sub job why not just give Scholar the trait MAB I at 45 and MAB II at 90 instead of making it overly complicated. That would allow some MAB if for some reason a scholar wanted to use a /ninja sub. I just don't think adding Magic Attack bonus is particularly innovative.

I personally would like to see scholar fleshed out to a more unique role. They share a lot with other mages, which is fine, but think some of the more unique ideas would be more worthwhile. I always thought scholar being more like Rambus's idea of a corsair as a mage with a lot of unique spells to bring to a group.

I thought more should be done with the weather line of spells besides just buffing damage. Also, the Helixes could have been expanded to fill more roles. It seems a lot of scholars just want to be Black Mage, part II becaue they got bored with black mage, and that disappoints me, because scholar can be so much more. Asking for strategms to AOE nukes and more MAB seems pretty pointless. Scholar is supposed to be a strategist, not just brute damage. Definitely the skillchain idea SE has pushed the last couple updates is a something different that is fairly powerful and seems fun.

Ordoric

03-19-2011, 08:09 AM

Yes Sch needs something to distingush sch from blm whm and rdm. however they are military stratagiest emnity +/- spells are useful. stoneskin and blink where niceseeing the other 2 jobs got them naturaly cure 5 yes that would be very nice however it would also need to be added to pld and there for rdm, tweak modus verits and helix spells yes or augment storm spells the absorb simmilar effects or raise the resist rate. we mages need to work together and use our skills and abilitys to enhance partys and dfend agenst attack.

hideka

03-19-2011, 09:23 AM

Hiroshiko

03-19-2011, 09:44 AM

not even gonna lie fetus, the fact that you even suggested getting SCH's merit strategems made me want to cry >_> costing 2 strategems to get a few points lower on enmity is NOT worth it... specially in abyssea lol >_>

I don't think Fetus was suggesting getting them, but was merely pointing out that we already have those effects. Therefore, was no need for a suggestion for the same effect. An adjustment maybe, but it's not a novel idea.

Rambus

03-19-2011, 10:27 AM

The Cure V issue still worries me a bit. I don’t totally disagree with you, but I feel that many people have overlooked the implications of handing SCH (and RDM too) Cure V without some way of balancing it. I have both WHM and SCH so that’s my comparison point (I know enough about RDM, but not much from experience). Personally, I always preferred healing on WHM just because it was more natural to me, but that aside, SCH always had a lot of tools to improve their healing abilities and have only gained more over the updates.

My issue with Cure V is that before Abyssea, there was only one tier separation between WHMs and the other “main healers” (SCH and RDM). Both SCH and RDM had tools that made them more efficient at healing and thus more desirable in most situations. Even with /SCH, WHMs were sometimes second to RDMs when it came to healing because Cure V (and a lot of the other tools WHM had) wasn’t necessary for things such as experience parties or even Nyzul Isle. In those cases though, what held SCH back was the lack of Haste. Fast-forward to “the Age of Abyssea” and the level 90 cap, the lines have blurred and placement has shifted. WHMs are pretty much required and SCHs and RDMs are struggling to keep up with the healing load. DDs have TONs of HP that need to be healed and damage is exceeding Cure IV. This is where I agree with you, SCH and RDM need something to help them keep up, but neither should shadow WHM because those jobs are hybrids and can bring other things to the table in addition to healing. However, handing Cure V to both mages would bring us back to the one tier separation and potentially displace WHM (I wanted to mention what WHM does have, but that’d make this longer).

Many people like to use the “but WHM has Cure VI argument!;” however, many WHMs (check the forum) agree that Cure VI is not very MP efficient. My Cure V heals about 1000-1100 on average and Cure VI is about 1400-1500, but the MP price is 122 and 205 respectively with Light Arts. In fact, most of the time Cure VI will over cure and waste MP. Couple that the fact that outside of Abyssea, Cure VI isn’t really necessary because most DDs don’t have the HP to warrant its use nor are they taking that amount of damage (similar to Cure V pre-Abyssea). Even with all the Refresh atma that we have available, Cure VI is usually a backup for when Cure V is down and the situation calls for it. Basically, it’s gone from Cure III spam with Cure V as backup to Cure V spam with Cure VI as backup.

Since this is starting to become a wall of text, I’ll cut it short but I have other talking points. If someone sparks one of my other talking points I’ll post my perspective on it, but I hope this can be a constructive discussion. My other points revolve around SCHs stratagems vs. WHMs JAs, Cure potency, and Divine magic triggers, but that could be lengthy… Overall, I agree something needs to be done, but what exactly still eludes me, so I’d like to see what others think. Also, we can’t ignore the world outside of Abyssea because there is still a chance that SE will create events outside again without atma.

Summary (TL: DR): SCH and RDM need something to improve their healing capabilities. However, handing Cure V without some check and balances would bring us back to the days where there was only one tier of separation between WHMs and the other mages. Cure VI isn’t as powerful as it appears due to its inefficiency and being unnecessary out of Abyssea.

P.S. to Miera: Sorry, but I noticed what you said about Healing skill and wanted to correct something. SCH only has a D in healing when Light Arts is not activated, but that skill jumps to a B+ (+15 skill with AF1 legs). Healing magic skill doesn’t have as large of an effect on Cure spells though after a certain point. Cure potency and MND will do a lot more for Cure spells than Healing Magic skill after the cap has been reached.

I read though your post and i saw RDM > whm in Nyzul Isle. I was so annoyed with RDMs in Nyzul Isle due to lacking HPS I started to refuse to go to it without a WHM. I went to WHM to nyzul isle if i had too and my SCH would never touch the event since it was supar like RDM is for curing and nuking wasn't needed.

I do agree cure VI needs rebalancing with RDM,PLD, SCH getting cure V. you also have to consider this. Jobs as a curing main should not have the same max cure as /whm or /rdm at 99. YOU HAVE to give them those cures otherwise your suck on 75 mindset. The other Solution is make healing skill mean something to able to pop out 600 ish cure IVs as base with healing skill we have at 90.

I will agree in getting a form of Elemental celerity. it could be less potent then the BLM's though, plus it would fair better on SCH vs RDM. We are suppose to nuke better then RDM and they get nuke spells that we need Addendum: Black.

Siiri this is the first time I agree with you on something. yes I agree that MAB to dark arts is a bit much. I am happy with our damage, but like others said in other threads (guess I am loosing track with these threads) we need more uniqueness. fusion spells for level 3 scs and so on would be nice.

Jomen

03-19-2011, 10:50 AM

@Fetus,

Yeah, I lvled SCH to 75 as my second job. I'm not gonna waste 2 strategms and merits to lower enmity on a spell. That's the dumbest thing I think you can do with your hard earned exp and in a healing or nuking position, wasting strategms on enmity is ridiculous.

The spell I pointed out with the enmity staying constant would work like this. You cast it, and for that amount of time there would be no enmity influx at all. Let me break it down for you, since you just seem like a fanboy fetus and not good at thinking outside of the box. If I use Animus augeo or minuo at this current time, I've still seen Ukkon wars go berserk and get all the hate anyway. So instead, this spell would make it so no enmity could change, so that the 90 pld doing 30 damage a hit or whatever the hell is tanking, will keep hate after the war goes berserk and does a 5k ukkon. Get it?

Second, I got confused a little you're right. I do 3.7k on average in abyssea with a tier 5. Still doesn't change the fact that blms are pushing 7.5k when they're ridiculously built. I don't really need to prove to you if SCH is one of my mains since I've only ever got compliments on my server for my skill and am always getting recruited for lowman stuff.

As for the subbing rdm. I don't want to all the time? Perhaps I'd like to have access to the curaga spells from whm, or the warp from blm just because? Nah, I think I'll /rdm all the time because they get refresh...yeah...that sounds right.... My argument was it should be native so we get more options than sub rdm. I didn't ask for refresh or haste or phalanx, just the low lvl enfeebles so I don't have to always be /rdm. Although fast cast is nice.

Do you play SCH, fetus? Cuz last I saw I didn't say we are slow or anything like that? I was going with the fact that we don't have the ability to speed through nukes anymore. We used to be the fastest spellcaster with alacrity and now we're not. I'm not asking for super speed, just something to get us standing toe to toe. Also, I wasn't asking for Eubillence. I was saying it would be nice to expend to charges to double it even more. Eubillence is 50%....

Also, who are you? You act like you got beef with me or something. Not like I care, cuz now that you've called me out on my skill on sch, we got beef brah.

Edit: I was just saying some thoughts that came into my mind anyways. Some were good, some were not. I didn't spend all morning thinking up stuff I can beg for haha. Just a quick write before I went back to rl.

Hiroshiko

03-19-2011, 11:01 AM

I read though your post and i saw RDM > whm in Nyzul Isle. I was so annoyed with RDMs in Nyzul Isle due to lacking HPS I started to refuse to go to it without a WHM. I went to WHM to nyzul isle if i had too and my SCH would never touch the event since it was supar like RDM is for curing and nuking wasn't needed.

I do agree cure VI needs rebalancing with RDM,PLD, SCH getting cure V. you also have to consider this. Jobs as a curing main should not have the same max cure as /whm or /rdm at 99. YOU HAVE to give them those cures otherwise your suck on 75 mindset. The other Solution is make healing skill mean something to able to pop out 600 ish cure IVs as base with healing skill we have at 90.

I will agree in getting a form of Elemental celerity. it could be less potent then the BLM's though, plus it would fair better on SCH vs RDM. We are suppose to nuke better then RDM and they get nuke spells that we need Addendum: Black.

Siiri this is the first time I agree with you on something. yes I agree that MAB to dark arts is a bit much. I am happy with our damage, but like others said in other threads (guess I am loosing track with these threads) we need more uniqueness. fusion spells for level 3 scs and so on would be nice.

I mentioned Nyzul because on the Ragnarok sever many people wouldn't go without a RDM most of the time. WHMs were still useful and sought after, but some groups were more comfortable with just a RDM than with just a WHM. However, that was on a case by case basis.

Anyways, I agree with you about the Cure issue. Something needs to be done, but what exactly must be considered for current and future balance. It would be ridiculous for anything /WHM or /RDM to be able to access an almost equally potent Cure IV as RDM, SCH, and even PLD before gear. I entirely agree with you that Healing Magic Skill needs to have a stronger impact on Cure potency. That alone would make Cures more balanced across the mage jobs since WHM has the highest natural skill. I think I mentioned the same idea somewhere (could have been WHM forums), but currently Healing Magic is not as significant as MND after the soft cap is reached. However, they would have to make skill ups a bit easier (I've noticed some increase since the last update, but the frequency could still be better.)

Adjusting the Cure formula seems like the a decent way to boost Cures across all jobs without stepping on another job's toes. Overall though, SCH just needs something entirely unique that warrants utilizing them.

Celedh

03-19-2011, 11:19 AM

I didn't read everything out of this thread, but here's my two cents on certain points :

The SCH was made to be an in-between, like a Red Mage with less melee and more magic, played differently with the usage of Arts and Stratagems. In that aspect, Scholar is very well made.

But it will and should always be outclassed by pure roles in the respective aspects : it can do everything, but not as good. It can cure, not as a good as a White Mage. It can nuke, not as good as a BLM.

As a Light Art base, their main strenght is Enhancing, with AOE-able spells like Stoneskin, Blink, Protect and Shell, and some of those on different parties, making them helpful to support a party outside of his own. Sadly the biggest shortcomming in that aspect is almost constant need the support job, as their own spellbook is rather limited (it was very helpful to give them Stoneskin/Blink natively though). But the better enhancing spells are still limited to subjob (Phalanx, spikes, enspells among others).

Also, I don't think the biggest issue is that they don't have Cure V per say. I think what tips the balance is that EVERY JOB can get Cure IV simply by using WHM subjob at level 90 (I think Cure 4 was level 41 on WHM ?). For a job supposedly being 'second best' at everything, it ends up being equal to RDM and SMN/WHM, minus Light Arts bonuses. Considering that Dark Arts/Addendum gives them access to the strongest BLM spells, why not give them access to at least Cure V on Light Arts/Addendum ? I think it would make sense in that aspect. Level 60+ on Addendum wouldn't give it access to support jobs at least.

hideka

03-19-2011, 11:28 AM

Kasandaro

03-19-2011, 12:27 PM

That said, we need a bump in magic. They need to adjust the grimoires to push us to an A now instead of B+. It can even be A- but that would at least get us closer to being at the lvl of healing, nuking, or enfeebling that the big three are at.

Skill, especially in Abyssea, but outside as well, with as much accuracy and potency gear is available? Has a very negligible effect. Especially on curing magic, where SCH is arguably most deficient.

-Cure potency under White arts: +2% every 10 lvls.

So at lvl 90 we'd be at 18% cure potency ... No, this is not overpowered. WHMs can hit 50%+ cure potency ... I feel like this would not get us to their lvls but very close to being able to nip at their heels and make them feel pressure.

(non-Light Arts stuff trimmed for space)

wut

You are aware:
a) Cure potency (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Cure_Potency) caps at 50% (though, as noone has the job trait, no idea if it would have two separate caps);
b) WHM gets no native Cure Potency;
c) Discounting atma, WHM takes eight pieces (Surya's +2 22%, Orison Cap +2 10%, Serpentes x2 5% Roundel 5%, O Cape 3%, O Earring2 %, Fylgja +1 3%) to hit potency cap, assuming the body and legs are kept clear for Orison curehacks.

18% from your trait - assuming the 50% is a total cap - means that SCH could cap in (Surya's +2 22%, Roundel 5%, Tatsumaki 5%) three pieces (four if you replace Roundel with Serpentes).

How is that not overpowered?

Fetus

03-19-2011, 12:56 PM

Yeah, I lvled SCH to 75 as my second job. I'm not gonna waste 2 strategms and merits to lower enmity on a spell. That's the dumbest thing I think you can do with your hard earned exp and in a healing or nuking position, wasting strategms on enmity is ridiculous.

If you don't like it, then don't use it. They're not going to add a stratagem that does the same thing as another stratagem just because nobody likes the idea of using two charges instead of one. If you're suggesting that they reconfigure the way it works (costing one charge instead of two), then I'm all for it.

The spell I pointed out with the enmity staying constant would work like this. You cast it, and for that amount of time there would be no enmity influx at all. Let me break it down for you, since you just seem like a fanboy fetus and not good at thinking outside of the box. If I use Animus augeo or minuo at this current time, I've still seen Ukkon wars go berserk and get all the hate anyway. So instead, this spell would make it so no enmity could change, so that the 90 pld doing 30 damage a hit or whatever the hell is tanking, will keep hate after the war goes berserk and does a 5k ukkon. Get it?

Your 'tude sucks. I never called you a fanboy nor did I "call you out" on your playing skill as SCH. Feel free to quote me on anything I said. However, thanks for providing an example. It seems useful enough to warrant real consideration.

Second, I got confused a little you're right. I do 3.7k on average in abyssea with a tier 5. Still doesn't change the fact that blms are pushing 7.5k when they're ridiculously built. I don't really need to prove to you if SCH is one of my mains since I've only ever got compliments on my server for my skill and am always getting recruited for lowman stuff.

Again, just because I said 2.5K is weaksauce doesn't mean I'm insulting you. If you took it as an insult, sorry, but don't be so defensive.

As for the subbing rdm. I don't want to all the time? Perhaps I'd like to have access to the curaga spells from whm, or the warp from blm just because? Nah, I think I'll /rdm all the time because they get refresh...yeah...that sounds right.... My argument was it should be native so we get more options than sub rdm. I didn't ask for refresh or haste or phalanx, just the low lvl enfeebles so I don't have to always be /rdm. Although fast cast is nice.

Why would you sub anything other than /RDM, honestly? There's nothing you can do with Curaga that you can't do with Accesssion+Cure. You want Warp? Uh, Warp Cudgels are cheap and Scrolls of Instant Warp are 10CP. And yes, of course, every SCH subs /RDM for Refresh. Obviously. In terms of Job Traits/Abilities, Fast Cast, Magic Attack Bonus, Magic Defense Bonus and Convert are pretty much everything you could want in addition to what you already have for SCH. Being able to use Curaga or Warp don't even hold a candle to this. It's so convenient that it makes debate about ones' choice of support job pointless.

I was going with the fact that we don't have the ability to speed through nukes anymore.

You keep saying this and you're still wrong. Alacrity and Celerity exist. If Fast Cast+Alacrity/Celerity isn't cutting it for you, then I don't know what to say. If you want to nuke as fast as a BLM or RDM, then play BLM or RDM.

We used to be the fastest spellcaster with alacrity and now we're not. I'm not asking for super speed, just something to get us standing toe to toe.

Things change. PLD used to be useful. All of the jobs have aspects that they excel at and aspects that they fall short in (compared to other jobs). People keep asking for sooper dooper speed and it gets annoying. Try to come up with something novel for SCH instead of just picking more parts from WHM and BLM that you want and trying to assimilate them into SCH.

Also, I wasn't asking for Eubillence. I was saying it would be nice to expend to charges to double it even more. Eubillence is 50%....

It's not necessary. SCH can breach +68% damage per nuke pre-Elemental Affinity, Magic Attack Bonus, INT formulas or anything else you can think of. Ebullience is +20%, by the way. Savant's Bonnet +1 increases it to +25%. Savant's Bonnet +2 increases it to +30%.

Also, who are you? You act like you got beef with me or something. Not like I care, cuz now that you've called me out on my skill on sch, we got beef brah.

Edit: I was just saying some thoughts that came into my mind anyways. Some were good, some were not. I didn't spend all morning thinking up stuff I can beg for haha. Just a quick write before I went back to rl.

I could ask you the same question. I don't know you nor care about your "skill" with SCH, brah. You said it yourself that you were just "saying some thoughts that came into my mind". And I agree with you: Some were good, some were not. Just because I read your post and told you what I thought about it doesn't mean anything. It's a forum. Get over it.

Jomen

03-19-2011, 02:43 PM

Yeah, I took it incorrectly Fetus. I apologize and your points were valid as well. I do play black mage so I don't mind switching over for that but I see no reason to restrict SCH to subbing RDM. Yes, I see the benefits from fast cast and refresh, but I use sublimation over refresh, gain haste from subbing WHM and other benefits. The main reason people sub RDM is for fastcast, refresh and phalanx as well as the basic enfeebles. Just trying to get to the point of where we have more subjob options to play with. Also, yes I can easily accession + cure. But there is a limit. I fought the cactuar nm in A.alteppa and ran out of strategms during the needle span so had to rely on the curaga series in between recharges. But yes, I sub rdm most of the time anyway, simply for enfeebling purposes as well as phalanx. Sorry for the hate, I get that it wasn't an insult but the wording of your original post sounded very stand-offish. And you're right about ebullience, I was thinking it was the same % as rapture so I was wrong about that.

Hideka, As for the exp gain, yeah it is ridiculously easy. But I had my sch fully merited before abyssea existed so for back then it was a lot. That exp in particular took me a long time, today I can easily do it. I laughed when I read your comment cuz I realized I had forgotten abyssea exists for a few seconds. I kind of miss the old 75 cap.

Kasandro, the reason I would like to see skill augmented is not so much for curing. I never really cared for healing myself since the skill related doesn't affect it much anyway. However, when it comes to nuking, enfeebling, etc, it causes us to sacrifice equipment slots to fill in with macc and other gear. On my blm, I have no ele skill up or macc gear and I nuke like a hoss in and out of aby. On sch, I have two pieces of macc gear and one with ele skill on it and still sometimes get weird resists. What that comes down to is skill. The higher we can get the skill cap, the easier to get past the accuracy threshold. I do have both ele and enfeebling magic merited though so it's not too much of a worry. Also, I have the body +2 so I can get rid of those macc pieces when I get back but this was just a thought of resistance mostly. As for the cure cap, no I had no clue that there was one haha. I did some math too and came out to +58% cure potency on whm. So I guess if it caps at 50 then it's useless to have some of those pieces. Again, I'm not a healer but some schs out there are hardcore about healing so they really want to be on par. But yes, that would be overpowered. So I'll retract the idea of the grimoire bonus.

Fetus

03-19-2011, 03:49 PM

@Jomen - I was being sarcastic about subbing /RDM for Refresh. Don't forget that at 99, SCH will get Haste from /RDM unless we get it naturally by then, anyway.

Delvish

03-20-2011, 12:50 AM

I do agree with Jomen on one point. I would really really want to at least have the capacity to feasibly sub something other than RDM because it is so standard. I'm working on my club and staff skill currently (with that sexy D skill), so I can help with the !! procs that require those subs. Currently I just run in at the start of fights after a good 3ish min. Adloquium'ed Omniscience to get the weakness. It helps, but I'd like to do more and be more wanted.

Miera

03-20-2011, 04:57 AM

I agree, I think Healing Magic needs some working on. It does diddly and Cure Potency and MND > Healing Magic Skill. I think they should make Healing Magic skill actually mean something, maybe that way it can set some sort of balance since WHM have higher Healing Magic than SCH and RDM.

Also, the lack of Cure Potency Items is killing me. I'm still working on Magian staff but I fear it still wouldn't be enough.

Sonshou

03-21-2011, 01:29 PM

I have been screening the forum... I seen many cry about lack of fire power and low cure potency without cure5. I can feel it, but I accept that is what SCH suppose to be. I have Scholar only because the School uniform looks good on my character anyway.

But I do think something is missing with SCH since before Abyssea is out..... Why SCH, as a tactician of battlefield, have never ever get any spell that lower or alter elemental resistance of enemies? BLM get AM to lower target's elemental resistant, even throught they get enmity from it. NIN has elemental wheel to alter a bit. BRD do songs. But we SCHOLARS are TACTICIAN OF BATTLEFIELD, we should get something that change the tide of battle. And I do think elemental resistance have a great deal to turn tide of a battle.

My original thought was that.... the Helix spell.... perhaps they should get to have the effect of altering elemental resistance, increase effect over time. But no, the developers don't think it is necessary.

Other option: the "Storms" spell.... I think it would be nice to use weather to alter enemy's elemental resistance? but... that is a spell that can only cast on party member, player characters. Why can't we alter the weather around our foes?

And we are called the tactician of battlefield... how useless we are in terms of turning ties of battlefield. We're nothing but a subsitude for BLMs or WHMs. Nuke or Cure.... is that all we are?

Bureikun

03-21-2011, 04:14 PM

Why are people against giving other jobs cure 5? Fact is we haven't had a cure upgrade in 40 levels! 40. That's F-O-R-T-Y. I don't care how much you want to bitch and moan, that's ludicrous. Does it need to be cure 5 yes. because i don't see a spell coming out called "Cure IV.V".. it looks stupid namely.

And don't for a second tell me that rapture is good enough. Lets see here. 48 sec stratagem recharge. So after the first 5 raptures you spam.. you're screwed. And most of the time now if an NM does drops a 2k dmg bomb you're looking at at least 3 of those raptures just to get them back to white health. And if the only thing you're spending your stratagems on is rapture... tsk tsk tsk you're a crappy sch. So this means rapture is out of the picture... what then I ask.. what then? And let's say that was an AoE 2k dmg bomb, or if the NM is spamming it.

Not that I'm saying I can't keep up most days. But good grief if I have to heal more than one person? Someone's gonna die usually. Luckily no one cares about exp loss but sigh =/ that's not good enough for my image as a healer.

Edit: On a side note... will anyone care once/if they fix cure 6?

Miera

03-22-2011, 01:09 AM

Depends on what do you mean by "fix" WHMs cure up to 1k with Cure V and I've almost seen almost 2k Cure VI dropped on someone... I don't think It needs much of a fix..

Pebe

03-22-2011, 04:44 AM

Hiroshiko

03-22-2011, 06:26 AM

In regards to cure potency you guys are forgetting that we get 15% over whm from aurastorm + korin obi and twilight cape.
Cure V would be awesome but, we could make our cure Vs surpass whm's easily considering we can boost it by 75% more than whm can, without even touching cure potency. Rapture + Savant's Bonnet +2 and the storm obi cape combo i talked about earlier. So as you can see, that would make us encroach on whm's cure territory before even trying to implement some of the creative ability enhancements in the other thread. Cure V is just that awesome. The reason cure VI needs fixing is because it is not mp effiecient in the least for the amount of hp it cures. And it also has a good amount of hate. It is one of the least mp efficient cures without combining it with penury. Where as I think cure V is the most efficient (haven't actually calculated).

Thank you for this. You pretty much summed most of my concerns about Cure V. I agree with most people that something must be done for SCH and RDM in the healing department inside of Abyssea. Cure IV clearing isn't keeping up and anyone /WHM (and eventualy /RDM) is/will have be able to utilize Cure IV. However, we have to consider the situation outside of Abyssea. Even though Abyssea seems to dominate FFXI at the moment, there are still things to do outside and we don't know what is to come in the future.

SCH gets a decent amount of Cure potency gear:
-15% from Aurorastorm with Korin Obi and Twilight Cape (plus additional amounts with the day bonus); additionally, these bonuses do not count towards the 50% cap.
-5% from the Serpentes Hands/Feet Set or 4% from Augur's Gloves
-22% from Surya's Staff
-2% from Fylgja's Torque (3% with +1)
-5% from Tatsumaki Sitagomoro (add-on augments)
-3% from Selenian Cap

A "perfect set" would give you: 38/50% towards the cap + 15% from the Aurorastorm pieces (putting you at 53% potency since the Aurorastorm pieces don't count towards the cap). You can add one of the Cure potency atmas to make that 48/50% + 15% from Aurorastorm. That's not too shabby considering the bonus from Rapture (though some of potency would be lost if Savant's Bonnet +2 was used). Inside Abyssea, this would be enough for SCH to perform well with Cure V yet not overshadow WHM. However, outside of Abyssea, SCHs efficiency would outstrip WHM.

As Pebe said, Cure VI is very MP inefficient both inside and outside of Abyssea. However, inside Abyssea all of the Refresh atma cloud this issue. On the other hand, once you step outside of Abyssea, Cure VI becomes unnecessary. Personally, I made my macros so that I can swap out Cures VI when I'm not in Abyssea because 1) DD don't have the HP pool to warrant anything beyond Cure V and 2) DD aren't taking ridiculous amounts of damage. Giving SCH (and RDM, can't really exclude them) Cure V without some consideration towards future updates or content outside of Abyssea could potentially lead to unbalance. Other posters and I have mentioned potentially altering the Cure formula to make Healing Magic Skill have a more significant effect. I have both WHM and SCH at 90, so I can attest to the fact that Cure IV isn't cutting it anymore inside Abyssea because it's not potent enough nor do we have a second Cure to fall back on. However, outside of Abyssea, the problem isn't as significant. Abyssea may be the bulk of everything now, but the future is yet to be determined.

I like the suggestions other have made toward carving out a unique niche for SCH. Rather than take bits and pieces from WHM, BLM, and RDM, what SCH really needs now is something more defining that will draw the community towards using it. No matter what SE gives us it is up to the community to determine its value. Adloquium and Animus Spells were a first step, but their potency was less than stellar. I can't think of any ideas at the moment, but I would like to see something unique that will make the community more willing to include a SCH (other than another !! trigger because that's only useful inside Abyssea).

Thuggin

03-22-2011, 06:52 AM

Cure VI costs too much and only heals a little more then Cure V, cure 6 is a joke.

Bureikun

03-22-2011, 07:14 AM

Cure VI costs too much and only heals a little more then Cure V, cure 6 is a joke.

This is what I meant by needing to "fix" Cure VI. Isn't the floor on it like 750? What a pathetic waste of mp. But having said that don't you think it seems like SE just gave WHM cure 6 as something to fall back on when the cure 5 recast timer isnt up yet.. seeing as we all know cure VI is pointless outside of abyssea, and most of the time cure IV is pointless inside of it. WHM has to pay the extra cost in mp to have the option of casting cure 6 instead of cure 4.. as such it's like an emergency option.

Though thinking that way makes me think calling it cure 6 is stupid too... thus it needs a fix

TimeMage

03-22-2011, 07:46 AM

I think someone suggested it earlier here or in another thread... SE could remove Cure V special enmity properties, and then give WHM a lv50 job trait that reduces cure enmity, so that the new Cure V generates roughly the same enmity as the old one. Or maybe a little more, but the rest of cures generate less since they're affected by it, or whatever. This would solve the enmity issues.

As for potency issues, rework Cure formulas so that MND and SPECIALLY healing skill are determinant in the spell potency: There you go, RDM and SCH has Cure V, but generates more enmity and can't heal as much (while still being clearly superior to Cure IV).

Hiroshiko

03-22-2011, 07:49 AM

This is what I meant by needing to "fix" Cure VI. Isn't the floor on it like 750? What a pathetic waste of mp. But having said that don't you think it seems like SE just gave WHM cure 6 as something to fall back on when the cure 5 recast timer isnt up yet.. seeing as we all know cure VI is pointless outside of abyssea, and most of the time cure IV is pointless inside of it. WHM has to pay the extra cost in mp to have the option of casting cure 6 instead of cure 4.. as such it's like an emergency option.

Though thinking that way makes me think calling it cure 6 is stupid too... thus it needs a fix

Ah, that clarifies it a bit more then. With my current 50% Cure potency build, Cure V heals about 1,100-1,200 HP and Cure VI is 1,400-1500 HP. Not a very large difference considering the MP cost. It really does seem as if it was designed as a fallback as you said. If they fixed Cure VI to the point that it wasn't so inefficient, then I could see SCH and RDM getting Cure V and not encroaching on WHM too much. Cure VI can give up to 400 HP in Stoneskin with Orison Bliaud +2, so if they reduced the MP cost it would be a nice way to reduce damage before it happened. Though Healing Magic skill in general could use a little tweak...

Rambus

03-22-2011, 07:56 AM

Ah, that clarifies it a bit more then. With my current 50% Cure potency build, Cure V heals about 1,100-1,200 HP and Cure VI is 1,400-1500 HP. Not a very large difference considering the MP cost. It really does seem as if it was designed as a fallback as you said. If they fixed Cure VI to the point that it wasn't so inefficient, then I could see SCH and RDM getting Cure V and not encroaching on WHM too much. Cure VI can give up to 400 HP in Stoneskin with Orison Bliaud +2, so if they reduced the MP cost it would be a nice way to reduce damage before it happened. Though Healing Magic skill in general could use a little tweak...

I know cure VI needs changing to allow cure V to go to RDM and SCH ( PLD is a job main with cures it should get cure V too if you ask me)

that is why they need to change the enm on cure V and just give a cure enm trait to whm ( that works outside of caps)

Hiroshiko

03-22-2011, 08:17 AM

I know cure VI needs changing to allow cure V to go to RDM and SCH ( PLD is a job main with cures it should get cure V too if you ask me)

that is why they need to change the enm on cure V and just give a cure enm trait to whm ( that works outside of caps)

I think someone suggested it earlier here or in another thread... SE could remove Cure V special enmity properties, and then give WHM a lv50 job trait that reduces cure enmity, so that the new Cure V generates roughly the same enmity as the old one. Or maybe a little more, but the rest of cures generate less since they're affected by it, or whatever. This would solve the enmity issues.

As for potency issues, rework Cure formulas so that MND and SPECIALLY healing skill are determinant in the spell potency: There you go, RDM and SCH has Cure V, but generates more enmity and can't heal as much (while still being clearly superior to Cure IV).

I really like the bolded parts. I saw that mentioned before as well but I must have overlooked it at the time. However, that would make WHM distinct from the other mages and wouldn't necessarily be anything WHM didn't had before (especially since a lot of the newer gear lacks -emn where we once had Blessed). Plus, it will effectively allow PLD to have a use for Cure V as an enmity tool as well (though I still don't see them using it as much since Cure V would probably burn their MP pool in a few casts.)

And yes, Healing Magic Skill makes me rage and a fix to the formula would definitely be appreciated. When I first saw the Orison Bliaud's augments, I /facepalmed seeing the Healing Magic Skill because it seems like the design team doesn't realize how insignificant it is in the formula compared to MND. The Refresh +2 and "Solaceskin" cap break was its saving grace. However, WHM naturally has higher skill and an adjustment to the formula would benefit all the mages equally.

(And yes I know this isn't the WHM forum... I have SCH too.) *disclaimer*

Rambus

03-22-2011, 09:17 AM

I understand and I understand the need for that balance, that was always to my replay to people. I would say give cure V to those jobs then they where like zomg that will brake whm. Then I will say not if you cahnge how cure V works and give an EMN cure trait for whm that works outsite caps.

If you seen it before was prob me saying it. ( say it a lot talking in different job threads too)

WHM are on cure VI already.

The only thing that makes cure V overpowered is the static Enmity that cure V has. SE can drop that, and then give WHM some trait of cure enmity down that works outside caps. Make cure VI a better cure / mp ratio, then you are fine letting PLD, RDM and SCH having cure V. you cannot have jobs on /WHM and at 99 /RDM that has the same cure power as jobs that has cures as a main. It is not a progression for having the same level cure of natural cure jobs (PLD, RDM,SCH) and having anything sub it. Not giving PLD, RDM, SCH cure V just shows SE wasn’t fully ready to past this game past 75. I still think this game is not meant to past 75 and they are trying to force it that way.

I do think RDM can use raise II, SCH can use raise III and WHM use raise IV by 99, you need progression in all areas. I do not know about PLD and raise II though, they originally never had a raise.

forgot about restating the mp/heal ratio on cure VI but ya -.-

changes can be made to allow rdm pld and sch to get cure V

Hiroshiko

03-22-2011, 10:21 AM

I agree and I think it was you that I remember reading the -enmity trait from. I've been hopping a lot between this thread and another suggestion thread in the Scholar forum, as well as a few in the White Mage forum. A lot of the ideas run together after awhile. Anyways, you make a very good point though. It would be ridiculous for anything sub /WHM or /RDM at 99 to have the same tier Cure as RDM, SCH, and PLD. The suggestions to alter Healing Magic Skill's impact on the Cure formula as well as the -enmity trait for WHM (and remove of Cure Vs static enmity) would be great steps toward preserving WHMs top-tier healing status, while still allowing SCH and RDM to keep up on healing duties and PLD to utilize it as well.

Meowryu

03-23-2011, 07:34 AM

Summary (TL: DR): SCH and RDM need something to improve their healing capabilities. However, handing Cure V without some check and balances would bring us back to the days where there was only one tier of separation between WHMs and the other mages. Cure VI isn’t as powerful as it appears due to its inefficiency and being unnecessary out of Abyssea.

I don't think Cure V would break SCH/RDM as jobs and make WHM an unnecessary job in parties/events again. WHM has a few things neither of these jobs would bring to the table.

Afflatus Solace: Free stoneskin (up to 300hp) a cure is BOSS.

Divine Caress: Removing a status effect and giving an 80% resistance to it for 1 min, oh and DCaress has a 1 min recast.

Divine Benison: 50% fastcast for status removal spells; you've never na'd someone as fast as this :D. (-Enmity as well).

Auspice: +10 (+20 with AF3+2) Subtle blow is amazing for lowmanning NMs, allowing a member to remove SB gear for other gear and remain at SB cap.

Esuna: AoE na' spell. Nothing super amazing, but a utility spell none the less.

Baramnesra: With no Na spell for amesia, stacking barfira + this allows for 1/2, 1/4, 1/8th resists on amnesia. Utility spell.

Shell/Pro-ra V: Merited versions are better than their single target brothers (although only by a small margin)

Barspell Merits: +10 MDB on barspells

AF3+2: Pants: Free MP when you drop a bomb cure; which WHM is great at. Cure V/VIing for a huge amount of hp, getting some mp (50~80) back, and a 300 hp stoneskin on a target seems alright.

AF3+2 Set Bonus: Chance a barspell will 100% resist a matching element is great, doesn't always proc do to the low % chance (5-10%~?) but saves you mp from having to heal after an -aga etc.

Each job can bring a different suite of benefits to a group and I don't believe giving SCH or RDM Cure V would be unbalanced to the point where WHM would become an unnecessary job; on the contrary I believe it would still be the best healer in game.

Sonshou

03-23-2011, 12:13 PM

Pofo

03-25-2011, 01:48 AM

Would it be easier for SE to create a new cure spell that is equavlent to cure5 without the enmity reduction? instead of doing all those enmity adjustment for jobs or traits?

Allow both WHM RDM PLD and SCH to access that spell. It is fair for WHM to access to 2 cure5 equvalent spells since they are the healer.

Actually, it would be a lot easier to just give SCH and RDM Cure V. People who claim it would out shine WHMs are idiots who A. Don't know anything about the job and don't have it leveled, or B. Terrible WHMs who don't understand the extra benefits WHM has over any other healing job. The type "B" people typically see the only spells WHMs use as Cure, Protect, and Shell.

However, I don't think PLD should get access to Cure V, that might be a little broken, esp. with things like Ochain at your disposal. Overall I'd rather give PLD more enmity tools then a new tier of cure (that comes with native - enmity), since they can't even meet their jobs functions in abyssea right now.

Pebe

03-25-2011, 10:21 AM

idk pofo, without adjustments, sch with cure V outside of abyssea will be pretty beastly due to reasons previously stated. I still am in favor of the enmity fixes suggested before. Otherwise, it'll basically end of being cureskin + whm af3+2 pants efficieny + weakened light arts (less stratedgems, etc) vs. penury/rapture, convert, sublimation. I'm probably missing something but that is the jist of it off the top of my head. Oh btw:

LOWER SCH'S LEVEL OF STONA ; ;! I want stona when i sub sch on rdm SE, make it happen.

Meowryu

03-25-2011, 01:37 PM

Siiri

03-25-2011, 07:14 PM

You're right; having Cure V negates everything else a WHM brings to the table.

You must fall into category B?..

It doesn't negate everything, but outside of abyssea scholar will once again have a significant advantage over whm with mp regeneration. Scholar has super charged sublimation at 90 compared to a sub job level sublimation, along with convert. White mage was a second choice healer in many events at 75, pre abyssea due to the perception that they would run out of mp. The main reason they would be taken would be for oh crap Cure 5s, but events like limbus, nyzul, assaults, merit parties, dyna, red mages and scholars were preferred due to mp reasons. My einherjar group even tried to have red mage main healers but we had to switch to white mages due to our poor red mages. For white mages who lived through being second choice, being told they couldn't heal missions ( I remember RED MAGE ONLY for airship) giving up Cure V exclusivity is a bit worrisome. I think most remembering the 75 events do see that as a concern, to some degree.

Pebe

03-26-2011, 07:37 AM

You're right; having Cure V negates everything else a WHM brings to the table.

You must fall into category B?..

Its not that it negates everything whm brings to the table....
If you give away whm's greatest healing tool in this game, that keeps it above the other healers, to the most mp efficient mage in the game (sch), obviousely there will be some issues. Whm is the main healer of this game, hands down. Encroaching on this status without blances would be plain stupid. If my sch had cure V, I would use it alot over my whm now just for the efficiency, except for during certain fights (mostely where those lovely lovely barspells play a nice role).

Lets assume both whm and sch subbed rdm for access to convert, I personally sub sch on whm but this way comparison is easier.

Whm uniqueness: Why sch encroaches:
Auspice
Powerful barspells
Regen IV Boosted Regen III
Esuna AoE na spells
Raise III Raise II (difference irrelevant in this day and age)
Shellra V (merited) Shell V
Protectra V Protect V
Boost spells Stormsurge
Teleports
Sacrifice
Solace Cureskin(400 hp?) Rapture(+60%)/Stoneskinga?
Divine Seal Rapture x2 \o/
af3+2 pants Penury/Sublimation/Light Arts innate bonuses
Cure casting time merits Alacrity/Light Arts innate bonuses
Higher cure potency Rapture(+60%)/Aurastorm(+15% with twilight cape)
Devotion This is uncomparable (was thinking adloquim but meh), devotion is sexy!
Cure VI Inneficient and Rapture + Cure V will probably do more than this

So as shown, there is not much that whm gets, if sch got cure V without adjustments, that would put it over sch in terms of healing that would put whm far over sch.

Sotek

03-26-2011, 05:44 PM

Just a quick question, but do you agree with Scholar getting Cure V with regular Enmity gain? Because the vast majority of people asking for Cure V have said that one way or another, or when you say "without adjustments" do you mean something else?

Pofo

03-28-2011, 01:50 PM

Tezz

03-28-2011, 03:54 PM

The fact is that I'm sure SE sees the imbalance and one way or another rdm and sch can expect Cure V, whether anyone likes it or not. New topic, Manifestation and nukes! Consider Abyssea, esp for time farming where typically BLMs Aga III / Aja 10-20 mobs at a time for chests, I'd like to see SCH be able to AoE their nukes, I'd even accept a huge decrease in damage per target, like 1 target, obviously 100% dmg, and 4 targets would be 25% damage each, caps at 10% damage for 10+ targets. I'd just like the option. It would also be nice if they applied to yellow procs, Manifestation, Thunder III = Thundaga III proc.

And before anyone quotes with with "QQ SCH shouldn't be able to aga that's unrealistic!", take into consideration that our "precious" BLMs fall far below the chain vs. a BLU with the correct Atmas using Charged Whisker for 5000-6000 DMG per target.

I don't think that's an unrealistic request considering the pathetic damage downsides I posted above, this would help with the fact that SCH gets very limited proc options, and even less chances to contribute in time farms.

Also in regards to SCH & Procs, it would be neat if SE could somehow make our Storm spells equivalent to an Ancient Magic Proc when cast(so we could use either AM and/or Storms for yellow). This would also prompt more /SCH slightly more.

Although with your Manifestation + Tier 3 idea, these would allow SCH to also proc all yellow nukes. Not that it's a bad or overpowering thing. (Side note: lol @ DRK/SCH -ga procing).

Just a quick question, but do you agree with Scholar getting Cure V with regular Enmity gain? Because the vast majority of people asking for Cure V have said that one way or another, or when you say "without adjustments" do you mean something else?

I would be more in favor of a SCH unique Cure HOT spell. They could make the potency in between Cure 4 & 5, and add a short duration HOT for like 200HP/tick.

Daremo

03-28-2011, 10:09 PM

Hmm, something like a Helix for healing, initial cure for ~200, and then repeats that 7~10 times at long interval tics. Interesting.

Sotek

03-29-2011, 12:37 AM

No @ Manifestation nukes.

For Magic Stagger, no. I'm on the fence about the idea anyway, but having it equatable to -aga III is just plain wrong. Black Mage would only have Ancient Magic over Scholar then, and one series of spells is ignorable from a low man point of view. Okay maybe you'd bring a Blue Mage/Bard, but that's only a mule. Give Black Mage a similar situation and I'd do exactly the same with it. Just kidding, I probably already would.

As for Manifestation nukes for nuking. Your idea of balance is ridiculous. If my Blizzard V can match a Black Mages 11k damage, my Manifestation Blizzard V is going to cost 585MP and do 1,1k damage (-aga is near ignorable on small amounts of mobs imo) per mob, and I can't even match Black Mages top nuke. If I get given that next update I'd up and quit (like I've been playing for the last 3 months anyway).

Having it just for Magic Stagger just seems wrong. It would be a worthless addition to the job considering any new content would hopefully have a revised system, normally I wouldn't be against potentially worthless additions to the job, but slapping "SCH Lv. 8" on a scroll of Paralyze takes 10 seconds, balancing Manifestation to handle nukes does not.
Not sure why SE didn't put Helices on the Magic Staggering list to begin with, but they should (also have it cycle weakness. "Weak to Ice" should mean exactly that, not "Weak to Blizzard III"). It at least gives me an excuse to bring my Scholar. An excuse because this game requires nothing more than a White Mage and a Ninja, Black Mage and Blue Mage/Bard mules are required only for this fairly poor system. Yeah, I'd rather they do something about that than give me a worthless -aga clone just so Scholar can still be bested by a Black Mage who has Ancient Magic.

Tezz

03-29-2011, 02:31 AM

Not sure why SE didn't put Helices on the Magic Staggering list to begin with
I meant Helix earlier, not "Storms". Was tired last night.

Yeah, I'd rather they do something about that than give me a worthless -aga clone just so Scholar can still be bested by a Black Mage who has Ancient Magic.

I would hate to be thought of as this, but at the very Least we would be thought of! (jk)

It really is time though that SE finds a better way of balancing Abyssea at this rate. Also 100 inventory CAN I HAVE IT. It's, literally, impossible for me to carry all the gear i want on SCH. Or allow us to macro from our Sack/Satchel.

Rambus

03-29-2011, 03:21 AM

anyone ever seen something like this before?:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/4146-Libra-while-Glavoid-uses-blood-weapon

my libra is broken

Zatana

03-30-2011, 01:44 AM

Some thoughts on Sch:

Damage really isn't an issue with the job at the moment in my opinion. Black Mages may be able to out nuke a Sch, but I still feel that I can go toe to toe with them, and even out nuke a lot of the less well geared Blms. My Blizzard IVs typically hit 4.8k, and break 5k on Iceday. While this won't compete with a full Empyrean +2 BLM's set bonus in the slightest, it's still more than enough, as that will one shot, or at least take off about 90% of an average mob's HP. The reason I find that I can't keep up with BLMs, or am asked to go Blm to an event rather than Sch, is primarily either due to lacking yellow triggers (unavoidable) or not being able to AOE nuke. Not that I'm saying Sch should be able to AOE nuke, but that's just how it is most of the time.
(Furthermore, as for DPS, with Quick Cast from the set bonus, etc., a Sch can effectively double cast spells, or triple or more, if lucky. That, in my opinion, really can compete with a BLM's Conserve MP augment.)

I admit the casting speed is a bit annoying. I was also of the opinion that Sch should be able to nuke faster, but maybe not quite as hard as a BLM (Quick Cast seems to back this up to an extent). I do feel though, that a well geared SCH with Fast Cast etc. can keep up with a BLM. The fact that a SCH would have to work so much harder to keep up with a BLM, especially after being used to being faster than a BLM, bugs me. That's life though.

I think hopefully by 99, with the completion of the Tier V spells Sch should be able to hold its own across the board with BLM.

On the Light Arts side of things, I think (like most people) that Sch is definitely lacking in the healing category. However, I would say that outside of Abyssea, nothing much has changed, and that Cure IV will still suffice, especially with an enhanced Rapture from Savant's Bonnet +1/2 and some minor Cure Potency gear. With atma and gear I can get 6-700 Cure IVs in Abyssea, but even then Cure V would really help. I one thing to consider though, is whether or not SE will really pursue Abyssea in the next version update. I'm not really sure what direction they'll take, but if it's outside of Abyssea, we won't really need Cure V on SCH (and WHM probably won't get much use out of Cure VI either.)

Things I would like to see changed about Sch:

Cure V (see above)

Libra ranged extended - Seriously, having to move into range of AOE's to use a mage ability is kind of counterintuitive.

Pax and Tranquility/Equanimity - I don't know if anyone else has noticed this, because I know a lot of people don't like these Stratagems, but with the effects of Animus Minuo up I was unable to activate Tranquility. This makes no sense to me. I really didn't think that the -5 or -10 from Animus Minuo and however much enmity merited from Tranquility would be a game breaker, and for them to not work together reduces the already minimal use of those two Stratagems. I'd like to see them stack.

Modus Veritas - Could that please at least work again? Like on NMs, where it might actually count? I get that it was hax instantly killing stuff, but you didn't have to get rid of it altogether…

Adloquium - I think another tick of Regain would make this infinitely better. Even if it had to come in form of some piece of gear, I would really like a two tick Adloquium. (Though I appreciate having it in general.)

Helices - I'm actually pretty happy with how much damage I can do with a Helix spell. Under good (Abyssea) conditions, I can hit 800 damage, which totals up to enough to one shot most mobs in Abyssea. I was thinking Helices II would be neat, and not necessarily overpowered. Perhaps extended duration, or maybe a faster tick, not necessarily more damage. Also, I think the idea of being able to AOE Helices, while not always practical, would be an interesting addition, and perhaps a way to stand toe to toe with BLMs in the AOE department, without stepping on their toes for straight Damage.

Stormsurge II - For future Merits and Abilities, I thought that a Stormsurge II could be very interesting. I love the Storm spells; I think they're a distinguishing trait to SCH. I'd like to see the Spells themselves get better, but I think this would be a decent compromise. The one problem I have with the Stormspells is that even with Stormsurge, they're still very mage centric buffs. I'd like to see a bit more use for other jobs as well. Stormsurge is a start, but with base cruor buffs being more than a fully merited Stormsurge, sometimes it's just easier to overlook them for melee. I think additional effects correlated to the spell's element would be nice. IE: Thunder correlates to DEX, which relates to ACC. Stormsurge II would raise the ACC a bit in addition to the DEX. I think this could be balanced properly to really make the spells worth adding to melee as well as nuking jobs. Fire could be ATK, Wind: EVA, Earth: DEF or maybe PDT-, Water: MDT-, Ice: MAB, Light: Magic Evasion and Dark could be a bit of everything like the original Stormsurge (Though something entirely different could be fun.)

Oh, and this probably won't happen/goes against standard SCH thinking, but I would really, really love to be able to AOE Silence, Slow and Paralyze, but I would totally settle for Silence alone. Kinda greedy, I know, but it would be so fun to screw with some of the worm camps in Abyssea by Silencega'ing. </3 worm camps…

Sorry for the huge post, but after reading through 7 or so pages of this post, I just had all of this bouncing around my head and really had to get it out .-.;

PS: I have seen that exact same thing happen to my Libra on Glavoid.

Tezz

03-30-2011, 03:53 AM

Give us a Regen that every tick cures a status ailment! -.- /sarcasm (if only if only)

Sotek

03-30-2011, 04:53 AM

Libra ranged extended - Seriously, having to move into range of AOE's to use a mage ability is kind of counterintuitive.

Modus Veritas - Could that please at least work again? Like on NMs, where it might actually count? I get that it was hax instantly killing stuff, but you didn't have to get rid of it altogether…

This is the bare minimum I expect from next update.

Modus Veritas is worthless as it is. Before the exploit hardly anyone used its stacking ability, why make the ability worthless when you can just remove the worthless aspect of? Just make it so it doesn't stack. Problem solved.

Libra? Well I could go off on how worthless an addition to the game Libra and Animus spells were, but I doubt anyone is interested. I'll actually waste my MP on Animus spells though, I absolutely refuse to use Libra, maybe if I can use it without moving I may at least use the worthless ability.

Tezz

03-30-2011, 11:47 AM

Rambus

03-30-2011, 12:29 PM

IDK about you guys, but i'm feeling burnt on SCH due to inventory issues and such. I keep wanting to get on SCH and have "fun", but due to, practically, non-existent popularity & over 80 inventory i just don't play it (and it sux since its one of the only jobs i care about).

I'm usually on WHM or MNK these days. It just sux because i "gave up" on FF14 for now and the trend is carrying over into FF11 now, or so it seems.

blu has more reason to complain about going over 80 slots then a SCH does, only reason I can understand what you are saying is going overboard with magain staffs.

I can fit PDT, MDT, convert gear and sublimation sets on me ( added to the normal casting sets)

Miera

03-30-2011, 07:09 PM

The fact is that I'm sure SE sees the imbalance and one way or another rdm and sch can expect Cure V, whether anyone likes it or not. New topic, Manifestation and nukes! Consider Abyssea, esp for time farming where typically BLMs Aga III / Aja 10-20 mobs at a time for chests, I'd like to see SCH be able to AoE their nukes, I'd even accept a huge decrease in damage per target, like 1 target, obviously 100% dmg, and 4 targets would be 25% damage each, caps at 10% damage for 10+ targets. I'd just like the option. It would also be nice if they applied to yellow procs, Manifestation, Thunder III = Thundaga III proc.

And before anyone quotes with with "QQ SCH shouldn't be able to aga that's unrealistic!", take into consideration that our "precious" BLMs fall far below the chain vs. a BLU with the correct Atmas using Charged Whisker for 5000-6000 DMG per target.

I don't think that's an unrealistic request considering the pathetic damage downsides I posted above, this would help with the fact that SCH gets very limited proc options, and even less chances to contribute in time farms.

I had always beleived if the SCH NPCs you have to fight through out the SCH missions can use Manifestation and a Elemental nuke then I think we should too. What gives? its not like we have access to Ancient Magic.

Also, I use Libra and the Enmity spells all the time. It Lets me know if I or anyone else is close to pulling too much hate, like the WHM, BLMs, and DD. Sadly, yes Libra is far too short range and you basically have to be on their butts to use and I hate that its party only instead of alliance.

Edit

Also on that weird Libra thing, I've seen that as well. I used it on a Member who had been charmed by a NM out in Tahrongi Canyon.

Tezz

03-31-2011, 05:32 AM

I can fit PDT, MDT, convert gear and sublimation sets on me ( added to the normal casting sets)

Do you guys just not carry light arts gear or something? I know i could likely sacrifice a few pieces now (because of Atmas) but not nearly enough to actually have room for pDT & mDT sets. That's just crazyiness.

Please post your inventory and/or gear sets that you carry on you.

Rambus

03-31-2011, 09:12 AM

Do you guys just not carry light arts gear or something? I know i could likely sacrifice a few pieces now (because of Atmas) but not nearly enough to actually have room for pDT & mDT sets. That's just crazyiness.

Please post your inventory and/or gear sets that you carry on you.

Nuking:
8 HQ staff
bugard strap+1
maats cap/ savant's bonnet+2
Savant's gown +2
Twlight cape/ potentia cape
Savant's chain/ uggalpich pedant
Savant's bracers+2
Congnitation belt/ ice obi/ dark obi/ thunder obi
Phantom tathlum
Hecate's earing/ moldavite earing
snow ring/ diamond ring ( int6)
Cyebele pants
savant's loafers

Enfeebling set:
Maats cap
scholar's gown
potentia cape ( not really useful but all i have atm)
Enfeebling torque
Argute braxers
cognition belt
snow/diamond
Savants pants +1 ( i am holding out on doing +2 because it is a waiste of stones, my way of showing SE/people these are useless and needs more)
Savant's loafers +2

totals 377 skill way more then you need in a lol75game.

379 and 381 is same for Phalanx so i am not sure what skill ups i need or gear to hit the next level anyways
Enchancing magic:
Savant's bonnet+2
argute gown
colossus's torque
scholar's pants
augmenting earring
fulcio grip

convert:
1192 hp/1123 mp ( I can't have all my gear currenty from being 80/80,80/80,80/80,80/80,80/80,80/80 once sobek skins get stackable and such ill be able to properly state my gear)
Walahra turban
Argute gown
twlight cape
uggalepih pendant
savant's bracers+2
Yiget seraweels
savant loafers+2
bomb queen ring
antivenom earing
happy egg

sublimation store:
Walahra turban
Argute gown
twlight cape
uggalepih pendant
savant's bracers+2
Yiget seraweels
savant loafers+2
bomb queen ring
antivenom earing
happy egg
Creek M clomps ( porb better now but this is reycled gear)
cassie earing

MDT:
Twilight torque
Coral ring
Mermani's ring
coral earing

PDT:
Twilight torque
Terra's staff
jelly ring
umbra cape

HMP:
Pluto staff
Yiget set
Austerity belt
Invigorating cape
Phi necklace
Relaxing earing
Antivenom earing

Dark magic:
(not much , i need relic pants too)
scholar's gown
aesir torque
dark obi ( when needed but not like i have a real belt anyway)

Bubeeky

03-31-2011, 10:00 PM

Let us whms keep Cure V, it's the only thing keeping us as top healer....if you sch's and rdms get cure V, we'll be back where we were at 75, with whm being meh...it's our job to heal, Sch is a battle tactician, it needs more unique things, like those enmity adjustor spells, or the regain spell, or something else we've never seen before....if you guys get cure V, you'll stop being unique mages and go right back to being substitute whms

Sotek

03-31-2011, 11:58 PM

Christ, some White Mages just really don't know what makes their job worthwhile, do they? Forgive me, you didn't quote anyone so I just assume you're against the majority of suggestions saying "give Cure V without the enmity reduction", enmity being the primary reason White Mage is top.

Why are people against Scholar being a substitute mage anyway? Did people completely forget that it's meant to be a White Mage or a Black Mage or a Red Mage depending on the situation? Light Arts and Dark Arts are tactical choices, right now Scholar leans heavily on only being a substitute Black Mage or Red Mage without a worthwhile Cure spell. I've main healed on Scholar just fine on new NMs, a higher healing Cure spell would be nice simply because there are times I barely pull through (<3 Quick-Magic). I still wouldn't take a Scholar over a White Mage though, enmity is a very real issue for me where as White Mage wont pull hate unless everyone else is dead. Cure V gaining more hate than Cure VI for Scholar, only an idiot would spam that. It's far easier to invite a White Mage to just spam virtually hate free Cures than it is to invite a Scholar who's going to have to watch their enmity.

Oh and SE should just remove the whole Enmity Douse and Cure V/VI effects and give them to Scholar in the form of spells. I find it disheartening to see them want to move Scholar towards an "enmity controller" class when they give everyone else means to completely negate hate. What do we get? +5/-5 Enmity spells. Brilliant.
Unless the whole enmity aspect gets changed into something similar to a substitute Corsair/Bard, there's really no point with it at this stage in the game (even then Animus spells are trash), fights are shorter, parties are smaller and hate just doesn't matter anymore, most jobs can act as psudo-tanks or cannot even gain hate or can simply wipe it clean. Very few jobs have to hold back any more. Ironically Scholar is one of the few that does.

Bubeeky

04-01-2011, 12:16 AM

Actually, I am against giving sch's cure V at all, now that you mention it :) They aren't supposed to be on the same power level as whm, and I applaud SE for taking sch away from the healer mage idea :)

Also, with all the massive enmity control out there through gear/atmas/skill, it shouldn't be an issue

PS. that signature is utterly facinating lol

Sotek

04-01-2011, 12:48 AM

Err... I have to completely disagree with you then.

This new enmity role as it is now is an abysmal direction to take Scholar in. Anyone who actually thinks these additions are worthwhile probably thinks Occult Acumen is a neat addition to Dark Knight. Keeping Scholar as a White Mage or Black Mage based on the situation (read: tactical) with a hint of Time Mage and Geomancer mixed in was a much better way to advance the job. Cure V is a part of making Scholar all that past level 75 and I'd much rather have seen Storm II than Libra and Animus.

White Mage should not feel threatened at all by Scholar getting Cure V (with greater hate gain than Cure IV). It takes a completely awful White Mage to pull hate, conversely, it would take an absolutely brilliant Scholar to main heal with Cure V and not pull hate. I can nearly pull hate support healing with Cure IV while a White Mage sits and spams Cure V/VI for the whole fight without consequence for crying out load. Do you really think that with Cure V Scholar is going to replace White Mage? MP isn't going to be an issue outside Abyssea unless you take playing level 75 content too literally and refuse to use any new content outside Abyssea. We have Refresh II and Ballad III now, and gear that enhances them. They're worthless in Abyssea but outside they're amazing.

Bubeeky

04-01-2011, 01:04 AM

mechanical question though...how exactly would they give sch without giving the enmity down thing unless they removed it from whm too? I'd imagine it to be difficult to have the same spell twice in the game, one with enmity, one without.

Also, I don't feel threatened by sch having cure V to be honest, I don't like the idea of sch being able to be whm or blm of power rivalling a true whm or blm...the benefit of a pure mage is that we have power that far surpasses others in our field.

I don't pretend to know what they could do for sch, I'm just saying I'd like to see them not get copies of what whm and blm already have, but to get completely new spells or abilities that give them their own brand new niche, not just the ability to fill a current niche...perhaps some more battle flow abilities or more time mage/geomancer qualities or something. :)

TARUS RULE! (just thought I'd share that random fact <(^.^)> )

Sotek

04-01-2011, 01:20 AM

Bubeeky

04-01-2011, 01:38 AM

I like that idea of giving whm an enmity down trait :)

My problem with them rivalling us is that traditionally, the balance for mages is focus/variety...whms and blms focus on one type of magic to surpass all others in it, in exchange for a lack of variety, like whm's complete lack of nukes lol Sch kinda violates this balance imo, as they have a wide variety of abilities and still have a focus on each to give a pure mage a run for their money.

Honestly, I'd support more uniqueness among melees too. My only experience with melee is an on again off again relationship with my DNC90 lol so I couldn't even begin to make suggestions there, but the point is that I think every job should be rewarded with one thing that they do that no one else can so I'd support that kind of thing regardless of if it's whm or sch or not. Every job should have one area where there's no competition for 'em.

Incidentally, that sig of yours really makes me want to watch anime and eat strawberry shortcake.

Merton9999

04-01-2011, 01:41 AM

I'd rather the bulk of SCH additions be unique abilities, but I still think the one spell we need from other jobs, except the rest of the tier V nukes, is Cure V.

It's been mentioned here how to remove the special enmity property on Cure V and still let WHM retain it: change the spell's formula to follow the normal progression of Cure 1-4, then give WHM a trait that reduces enmity for higher tier spells. It gives PLD an additional hate tool and cure spell, and it means SCH and RDM need to be concerned about hate, while WHM Cure V behavior is unchanged.

If the main jobs are supposed to far outshine the hybrids, it leaves the hybrid almost useless in that role. I like the comparison between SCH and BLM - with a total focus on nuking SCH can be on par with BLM with the correct gear and intelligent use of JAs. Those too things are crucial to maintain that close comparison between SCH and BLM. To me, that's the point of the job - it can be a great nuker, if you do a few more things than a BLM has to to make it happen. It can be a great healer if....

Well, no, it really can't atm. The WHM and SCH comparison is nowhere near as close for the reasons many people have stated. Enmity and lack of a strong cure spell are huge concerns. I don't know of any way currently to mitigate this. The tools to do so (Rapture, animus, AF3 gown enhancement) are too weak atm.

Really, all I'm asking is that SCH be made to heal on par or almost on par with WHM, so it is a suitable substitute for either BLM or WHM, not just BLM. I don't care if they do it with Cure V or some other unique JA/trait/gear. In fact, I'd actually prefer SE bring SCH closer to an adequate main healer with something other than Cure V. Cure V is just the easiest way to do it. Given their past record on SCH, I fully expect some rise in healing power through a unique new mechanism. Not that much uniqueness has come in the past level cap raise additions, but I'm still hoping, at least for SCH.

To make up for being nearly as potent as either job, I like the concept of SCH additionally being able to maintain balance in a party, or increase other jobs' potency. Animus, Storms and Regain are a great concept for doing this, but they are severely underwhelming and underpowered in their current state, to the point that no one really cares if a SCH uses them.

In the end, my first request for the job is to buff up light arts in some unique way so that SCH can come close to WHM, or be on par with intelligent gear choices and JAs. My second request is to buff up the spells used to maintain balance and potency for other jobs, namely storms, animus, adloquium potency, and a longer range on Libra. Third, unbreak MV with either a one-minute timer or a return to its old behavior, along with an inability to stack it past, say, 2-5 applications.

Rambus

04-01-2011, 04:34 AM

Remove the enmity bonus from Cure V/VI all together and give White Mage a job trait that does exactly the same thing, that was pretty much the first thing I posted on these forums lol.

Scholar rivaling White Mage and Black Mage doesn't seem like much of an issue to me. It's not better than either, and in both cases what other competition do they have? Compare that to Damage Dealers and it seems unfair to give them no competition at all and have them as vital jobs.

I did too but i madde the extra note of that trait.

it would work outside of enmity caps

Job MAIN should not be same power as sub.

if PLD, RDM SCH does not get cure V it just shows SE is stuck on level 75 mindset ( though there is other proof of this fact)

THE OLNY way around NOT giving those jobs cure V is letting healing magic mean something. in otherwords sub would be stuck at 400 ish cure IV while main jobs can hit 600 ish base because of skill

do meny caps in this game that only works at 75

Fiarlia

04-02-2011, 09:45 AM

I only read the first 4-5 pages, but didn't see it mentioned yet and figured I would.

Helix Adjustments: helices are one of SCH's most usefull spells, and one of their strongest, but I'd like to see alittle more changes or gear enhancements toward them, MaB has little to absolutly no effect on Helix, it's soley based off INT that enhances it's based damage,

This is plain wrong, MAB affects Helices, just not as much as regular nukes. In fact, if you do the maths (depending on your gear) 1 MAB is roughly equal to 1 INT for the Helix spells.

I say roughly because gear/food/atma/buffs could possibly swing the pendulum in the favor of INT or MAB very easily, though the difference would not be large.

Ahrana

04-03-2011, 07:08 AM

The thing that made Scholar unique at 75 was being efficient. It wasn't a cure spamming job like white mage, but it could be efficient at non-focused healing with AoE stoneskin and phalanx. It couldn't nuke as hard as black mage, but it could do more single target damage with helix spells, parsimony nukes, and the mp efficiency of black arts. To me, scholar was a job specifically balanced for play at 75, but since the level cap was increased the efficiency balance that scholar had was tossed out on it's ear.

Inside abyssea stoneskin doesn't absorb a significant portion of damage, phalanx is largely worthless, and mp efficient nuking has been replaced with ridiculous mp refresh and nuke button mashing. Unless they add some significant spells to the scholar arsenal, the only thing that will bring scholar back up to level is content outside of abyssea where MP is a limiting factor again.

Miera

04-03-2011, 09:25 AM

Yeah, the only reason why SCHs were such good healers outside of Abyssea was the fact we could conserve our MP efficiently. We had Sublimation and Alacrity, Penury, Stoneskin, Phalanx and Regen. We had the ability to sustain People's Health without having to Cure bomb the entire party and take hate and or lose large amounts of MP.

This was all XP parties outside abyssea where it took a lot to break stoneskin and Phalanx was actually migating a lot of damage and Regen actually did something.

Inside of Abyssea is a whole other thing where you have three alliances to take care of where you can't just go out Accession Stoneskin Phalanxe Regen III all 36 people and expect things will be okay (Which by the way is only party target able spells). That doesn't work anymore. Mobs break through stoneskin fairly easy, even with Phalanx up you still can get your face beat in pretty badly and I don't see much of a difference with Regen III

We need a better option here. Even with Mind atma in Light arts using Light Arts enhancing gear Aurastorm Spell and Subing WHM my Cures are still 470-500ish a cure and that doesn't cut it anymore. We aren't competing, we never did. Outside of Abyssea without the atmas Our nukes don't come near as damaging as a BLM and our Cures still doesn't outcure a WHM so I don't see your problem here.

I agree with the others, Either we get Cure V or we get a Light Arts Buff to boost Cure Potency.

Ahrana

04-05-2011, 05:11 AM

We aren't competing, we never did. Outside of Abyssea without the atmas Our nukes don't come near as damaging as a BLM and our Cures still doesn't outcure a WHM so I don't see your problem here.

Well, I never really saw us as a replacement for a white mage at HNM's, but we could be a substitute for a red mage in a lot of situations (Nyzul, xp parties, some salvage, etc). But back before abyssea scholar could actually beat blm's on single target damage at many HNM fights. While blm's could nuke for more damage per spell, scholar could cast a lot more spells. When you can toss out 50% more spells on a single bar of mp it doesn't matter that you're nuking for a little less.

With the atma buffs being efficient with nukes no longer matters, because mp is no longer the limiting factor. You're far more likely to run out of hp before you run out of mp. :p

Rambus

04-15-2011, 02:19 AM

I only read the first 4-5 pages, but didn't see it mentioned yet and figured I would.

This is plain wrong, MAB affects Helices, just not as much as regular nukes. In fact, if you do the maths (depending on your gear) 1 MAB is roughly equal to 1 INT for the Helix spells.

I say roughly because gear/food/atma/buffs could possibly swing the pendulum in the favor of INT or MAB very easily, though the difference would not be large.

1 int > 1 mab till your 75 int over target.

75 int above it is exactly the same

76 and over 1 int is very slightly better ( i am sure you will not see the difference reflected very well till you are about 86 int over or so, then I can recommend 1 mab > 1 int.

unless you are brewing or something i would tell people just do 1 int > 1 mab, you are going to be very hard pressed to do 1 mab > 2 int. you might have a debate if you find a gear agurment where you are doing 1 int > 1.5 mab, i do not know a gear slot where that ratio exists though. because of gear and realistic limitations it is just best to use 1 int > 1 mab

getting 86 int over target can't be easy even in abyssea ( imps the highest common mob outside abyssea, to my Knowalge, has 110 int)

Saefinn

04-22-2011, 10:59 AM

I'm in support of:

Cure V (we'll prolly get it anyway)
Weather II or improved weather - perhaps a stratagem or JA to enhance them
Helix II

and any other exclusive spells.

We see the different mage jobs being a master of something:
White Mage: Healing
Black Mage: Nuking
Red Mage: Enhancing and Enfeebling (as well as being a jack of all trades)

I think Scholar has its potential really in its 'over time' spells, it's MP efficiency and hate management. One really good thing about Scholar is that it's MP efficient - sublimation allows you to keep your MP up, Dark/Light Arts already offers reductions, you have conserve MP and Parsimony/Penury, with Rapture/Ebullience you're probably going to save on casting a few spells over all and even though you have larger MP costs with Accession/Manifestation if played well, they can save you MP too.

Then Scholar gets Regen and Regen II first, which can be AoE'd and gradually heal your allies, giving you space to strike - striking with a nuke might hurt your MP more as well as cause hate. To compare 2 of my spells:
Stone IV - Recast 30 seconds, 124mp cost (Dark Arts), 62 (Dark Arts + Parsimony)
Geohelix - Lasts for 60 seconds, 78mp cost (Dark Arts), 39 (Dark Arts + Parsimony)

Roughly (at my level/skill/gear):
Stone IV hits 600-900
Geohelix hit 100-150 every 9 seconds for around 1 minute, which adds to 600-900 (maybe more, it's 6/7 hits), the spell can be enhanced by Modus Veritas.

So whilst Geohelix will be slower than a nuke to do its overall damage, it is more MP friendly and avoids enmity. You might want to nuke on top, just extra damage within those 1 min time periods. Or helices can be useful if you're main healer - AoE Regen spell -> Helix -> Cure, you're dealing damage whilst being a healer without the penalties of a nuke. Focusing on our exclusives will mean stepping less on the toes of BLM and WHM, as I don't think we need to compete with them. Helices, Regens (if we get another tier) and weather spells I think are the right direction, especially as it means more focus on keeping the job a little more unique. There's no point in making jobs too similar.

Pebe

04-23-2011, 12:06 AM

Seems SE is taking the cure enmity thing into account with the Job Trait, I believe it was called, Tranquil Heart...
What will you do now SE... what will you do now...

Raksha

04-23-2011, 12:28 AM

Seems SE is taking the cure enmity thing into account with the Job Trait, I believe it was called, Tranquil Heart...
What will you do now SE... what will you do now...

I hate to be negative nancy, but it seems like instead of getting better cures they're gonna give us more useless -enmity. DO! NOT! WANT!

Sotek

04-23-2011, 01:43 AM

Seems SE is taking the cure enmity thing into account with the Job Trait, I believe it was called, Tranquil Heart...
What will you do now SE... what will you do now...

Not really.
The idea behind giving a trait to do the effect of Cure V/VIs enmity bonus is completely undo if Scholar and Red Mage both get the same trait. If anything that just allows Paladin to have Cure V with proper hate gain, though this announcement mentioned nothing of adjustments to Cure Vs hate gain nor did it have a "Part 1" on the end, no doubt we just gained -5 Enmity again.

I'm going to say this now, SE. Stop doing anything with enmity. You can't pop up one day and decided "Hey, wouldn't it be cool if Scholar kind of controlled enmity?" and then go completely ruin that idea by making hate gain a complete joke for every single job. It's bad enough your idea of control is watching and awful spells. This role is completely worthless, White Mage certainly doesn't need this new trait, they don't gain hate at all as it is. Almost every DD that would have to worry about hate gain can basically tank now anyway. Black Mage can just wipe its hate clean. Seriously, what am I meant to do with Libra and the Animus spells? Animus spells do virtually nothing and Libra is just brilliant without any means of acting upon the information (no, stopping is not a viable action to take). They're almost completely worthless at this stage and they're becoming increasingly so every time I think about them. Either give us a reason to control enmity (enmity based buffs and spells to adjust actual enmity levels, not adjust enmity gain) or just do away with Libra and Animus and give us Storm II and Helix II like everyone was expecting to get post Lv.75.

Ordoric

04-23-2011, 01:55 AM

om effing god stop trying to main heal as sch use ur powers to ehance parties if parties will learn to utilize your powers. the main problem is players are broken not the jobs

Sotek

04-23-2011, 02:06 AM

om effing god stop trying to main heal as sch use ur powers to ehance parties if parties will learn to utilize your powers. the main problem is players are broken not the jobs

I'll pass. I can main heal just fine as it is, though with a bit of luck involved, which is why Cure V couldn't hurt.
Next you'll be telling us to stop nuking right? Lets ignore the basis for each arts and focus on a hideously awful buffing system. Yes, Scholar buffs... Go through those with me for a second (try to use proper spelling and grammar, though)? No seriously, list them. I want to know exactly what it is I should be doing rather than using 4/5 of my spells and stratagems.

Miera

04-23-2011, 06:26 AM

om effing god stop trying to main heal as sch use ur powers to ehance parties if parties will learn to utilize your powers. the main problem is players are broken not the jobsWhat? seriously? Back in the day when I didn't want to main Heal as SCH I was told to do so and now all a sudden I am told not to do my job? Next you'll tell a RDM to stop Enfeebling.
Matter of fact, why don't you just tell us to stop being a SCH.

Sorry sir, no can do. I like SCH I just don't like how underrated my job is now, go level another job you say? NO U, I like SCH and I refuse to play a job that I absolutely hate because they have a higher tier of cure and get absolutely no hate whats so ever when cure bombing people . I'd be damned to sit here and have someone tell me SCH is useless go level WHM to get anything done.

Merton9999

04-23-2011, 08:58 AM

I agree with Sotek's enmity frustration here. It's silly to me that SCH is "kind of" given something unique to do in its weather and enmity control abilities, but those abilities are so underwhelming that even casting them in most cases is a laughable waste of time. Then to add an enmity down trait to cures for all healing jobs makes the enmity control abilities even more useless. I love the concept of both of these unique SCH functions, I just wish that trying to apply them resulted in something other than a cool visual or sound effect.

My only hope for this is the bullet under the job trait list:
"Certain job traits will see their maximum level of effectiveness adjusted by equipment, magic, and/or job abilities."

This could be very redeeming, say, if Tranquil Heart were greatly influenced by Animus Minuo, or if this trait is what turns out to be affected by the currently (I think) broken "Enhances Addendum: White Effect" on Savant's Gown.

Here's hoping that SE has hidden a surprise for SCH in this mysterious comment.

Pebe

04-23-2011, 04:25 PM

@ Sotek, Like all job traits, there are different tiers as you increase in level. The goal that we had set forth was for there to be a job trait that gives whm the same amount of hate with cure V if its special enmity properties were moved, while giving the other jobs access to cure V with increased hate. Now if Tranquil heart works like I hope it will be something like this:

WHM will get Tranquil Heart V @ 90
SCH will get Tranquil heart II @?
Rdm will only get Tranquil heart I

This allows for the possibility of implementing cure V to other jobs other than whm, without encroaching on whms supreme healer territory due to massive hate gain. SCH is very good at mp efficiency and as Kaeko has shown time time again, enmity mitigation via Enmity- sets. There are also the special properties of our scholar's gown +2. Keeping all this in mind, one can see how this job trait can be used to balance introducing Cure V without its special hate properties to the jobs listed, while still maintaining balance to the jobs. Sch will encroach on whm's territory but never surpass, RDM will be behind both in terms of curing. This is how it was meant to be. I'm pretty sure this was the consensus that we came to in this thread of how Cure V could be implemented. Please correct me if I am mistaken.

Edit: @ Sotek: If you go just one page before this one Sotek, the first post on the page is a comment about this exact type of job trait, that you said you were hoping for.

Edit 2: I realize that this is only half of the solution. The other half involves changing and implementing Cure V as we stated, but that is what I'm hoping they are going to do. This Job Trait opens up a few possibilities in that field.

Merton9999

04-23-2011, 10:52 PM

@Pebe: What you're saying is the kind of thing I'm hoping for with the mysterious note about traits being affected by equipment, spells, and job abilities. The only problem is presumably Cure V won't appear for RDM and SCH until the level cap raise in August, so we'll still have to wait 3+ months after the May update to see. I'm also hoping this is only job adjustments post #1, and that there are more of the adjustments people have asked for coming in May. Most notably, Cure V for RDM, SCH (under Add: White to take advantage of the AF3 gown property), PLD with different tiers of Tranquil Heart on RDM, WHM SCH controlling the enmity correctly.

Sotek

04-24-2011, 02:44 AM

WHM will get Tranquil Heart V @ 90
SCH will get Tranquil heart II @?
Rdm will only get Tranquil heart I

Edit: @ Sotek: If you go just one page before this one Sotek, the first post on the page is a comment about this exact type of job trait, that you said you were hoping for.

Yeah, a comment by me, so I think I know what I was expecting. Giving this to Scholar and Red Mage just voids what I suggested. At best I was expecting something like this for White Mage only, maybe with two tiers available through sub job. Just giving it two us just makes my idea of getting Cure V less balanced. The level difference between Scholar and White Mage gaining this is only 9 levels, I'd be surprised if we get more than one tier lower than them (and fyi, Red Mage obtains the trait before Scholar, they're more likely to have a higher tier than us).

The idea behind putting Cure V/VIs effect in a trait was so that White Mage could keep the effect while we get Cure V. I shouldn't complain but this almost completely undoes that, assuming we even get Cure V. And really, if Merton is right and Animus spells effect this... Well, why bother in the first place? We'd have automatic access to the same tier if not better than White Mages through the spell, they might as well have just given us Cure V as it is if they're going to ignore balancing it. The idea behind Animus effecting it is nice, but if you have a Scholar main healing, you wont have a White Mage or if you have a White Mage, no Scholar. Couple that with the fact that White Mage is already completely unneeding for any hate reduction and the Animus aspect of the trait benefits only us. Unless the new Voidwhatever event is going to require more than 4 people, that is.

Hate control in the current game is a complete joke. Actually, I think this could just be nothing more than a response to something else I've mentioned. I've said plenty of times that I manage main healing with Cure IV, with hate becoming an eventual issue, ironically the job meant to control hate is one of the few that actually can have issues with it. This would reduce that as it effects all cures, I'm not assuming we're getting Cure V until I read it.

Daniel_Hatcher

04-24-2011, 10:32 PM

WHM will get Tranquil Heart V @ 90
SCH will get Tranquil heart II @?
Rdm will only get Tranquil heart I

RDM gets the trait before SCH, so there is no way they will get a lesser tier than SCH far more likely for it to be the other way around, I'm guessing:

WHM
Tier I - 21
Tier II - 41
Tier III - 61
Tier IV - 81
Tier V - Possibly 91

RDM
Tier I - 26
Tier II - 46
Tier III - 86?

SCH
Tier I - 30
Tier II - 60
Tier III - 90?

Eldelphia

05-06-2011, 06:41 PM

The only thing they need to fix about SCH is the ability to proc something uniquely in Abyssea/Voidwatch and let us hit 96.

We may or may not get Cure V. I wouldn't be surprised if SE drop the fixed enm value for V and rely on tiesr of tranquil heart instead. Opening it up to RDM/SCH/PLD.

Pebe

05-10-2011, 11:41 PM

Well we proced something yesterday in voidwatch with Enmity Douse, I'm betting 100k gil that Libra is a proc as well.

Sotek

05-11-2011, 12:29 AM

Any idea what they changed to Perpetuance and Immanence? I'm guessing Immanence Skillchains can actually resist now...

Concerned4FFxi

05-13-2011, 10:36 AM

Absolutely not, cure V for sch will kill whm. Sch already has better nuking ability than rdm and with the right gear can nuke on the same level as blm. The concept of cure V for sch is outrageous, sch gets the ability of rapture at 55, a rapture cure V with a magian cure staff pot 22%, ASA cure pants 5%, augur's gloves or serp set, acp cure head peice 3%, a cure earring 5%(forgot the name but it drops from wotg campaign bcnm i think) and a flygia cure torque almost caps cure. Hers what the ability rapture has to say in the wiki:
■Potency increase is 55% while wearing Savant's Bonnet +1, 60% while wearing Savant's Bonnet +2
just looking at that is outrageous to think that you can have tier 5 single nukes anf tier 5 cures.

Now, the second part i have a problem with is the tier 5 nukes for pup and sch, at what point is blm going to be given a decent lead in nuking, the blm af3+2 body has no int on it, please SE stop gimping my jobs and giving other jobs the same abilities. Why play whm or blm if a decently geared sch can do both without a subjob?

Miera

05-13-2011, 11:50 AM

Do you seriously expect us to use rapture every time we use Cure IV? Seriously, do you even have a SCH? =\

Sotek

05-13-2011, 12:52 PM

Absolutely not, cure V for sch will kill whm.

You're not allowed to say this without actually countering every point I've made every damn time someone else has said the same damn thing. Seriously, this is the last time I'm telling a WHM what makes their job good.

WHM isn't top because of Curing power, it's top because it doesn't pull hate. Ever. WHM has near-zero enmity gain thanks to SE lacking foresight. SCH with Cure V, which just about everybody here agrees should be given with normal hate gain, would be a joke. I can already manage with Cure IV assuming the fight doesn't go on too long (because of hate), if Cure V gave more hate than Cure IV it's nothing more than an emergency spell, which I want, because relying on Quick-Magic isn't very good. When SCH can cycle Cure V > Cure VI like a robot with zero repercussions come and complain. As it is I can spam Cure IV with quite serious repercussions, so I don't see how that can ever happen.

Now, the second part i have a problem with is the tier 5 nukes for pup and sch, at what point is blm going to be given a decent lead in nuking, the blm af3+2 body has no int on it, please SE stop gimping my jobs and giving other jobs the same abilities.

You're complaining about BLM AFv3? Really?

Do you know why SCH and PUP get the top tier nukes? Because not having them would make both next to worthless. SCH is meant to act as a nuker and one of the PUP frames sure as hell is meant to be too. RDM gets tier IV because it's a jack of all trades, master of none. BLM, PUP and SCH are all meant to be expert nukers, the only thing that sets BLM apart is that it specializes in nuking, that's why BLM gets AM/-aga/-jas, Elemental Seal, superior traits, superior base INT and superior gear.

Why play whm or blm if a decently geared sch can do both without a subjob?

Because you enjoy WHM or BLM? I don't know. Or maybe because you want to proc !!, which SCH is absolutely awful for.
But by all means, go a head and replace both BLM and WHM with a single SCH. We can't cast Thunder V and Cure IV simultaneously, you either have a BLM and a SCH acting as a WHM or a WHM and a SCH acting as a BLM. You'll never see a SCH be both the main healer and main source of magic damage. Come back when you understand the concept of hybridization.

Aaralyn

05-13-2011, 04:10 PM

As I've said before, I do think SCH needs something. But I don't think that "something" is Cure V. Before the update, I didn't like SCH because I was tired of being told I should drop WHM for SCH. Now, SCH has tons of down falls, and I see no reason what-so-ever for anyone to level it, outside of Libra. I thought Libra was pretty cool.

The way I see SCH could be fixed, and make me actually want to level it, is, as some people have mentioned, a HOT spell greater than regen would be pretty cool. The second is, make Rapture a JA that doesn't rely on a charge, and make the recast be something almost nearly broken. Those 2 things alone would make me want to level SCH. I'm addicted to healing jobs. Slapping Cure V and taking away the set enmity on it would not make me want to level SCH.

Also, while I do agree that WHM would still be the better healer even if SCH got Cure V, others might not see it that way. You have that spell to reduce your enmity gain, or something to that effect. Then with Rapture, figuring it would work with V (don't see why it wouldn't). SCH can make AOE erase (Esuna, though not taking more than one effect). SCH can cast barspells paired with AOE phalanx. AOE Soneskin. 1/tick regain (not much, but still equates to something).

I understand charges can be limiting, but my friend, before the update, had no problem balancing them out. People would look at WHM the way it was before. And, lolDivine Caress.

And, they would still be able to manage their MP better, outside abyssea.

TLDR; While giving SCH Cure V wouldn't make it a better healer than WHM, it would again make SCH more desirable than WHM, with all it's utilities and MP management.

As for the Dark Arts side, idk.

Sotek

05-13-2011, 05:40 PM

Now, SCH has tons of down falls, and I see no reason what-so-ever for anyone to level it, outside of Libra. I thought Libra was pretty cool.

Please tell me you're trolling. Libra is the worst thing to happen to SCH since SE decided to release the job with an incomplete spell list. I don't even care if SE plans for Libra to make SCH shit friendship and magic in a few update, it was worthless when it was released, worthless when Animus spells were released and is probably only less worthless now because it's (apparently) attached to that horseshit !! proc system.

The way I see SCH could be fixed, and make me actually want to level it, is, as some people have mentioned, a HOT spell greater than regen would be pretty cool. The second is, make Rapture a JA that doesn't rely on a charge, and make the recast be something almost nearly broken.

While I don't particularly have any issue with a buffed up Regen spell, I don't really see the point. Cure V is already there and shouldn't be too difficult to adjust, not to mention Cure IV is a subjob spell soon (or is it already?). Making a spell that heals 200HP/tic would however, require quite a bit of planning and balance. Again, Cure V is already there.
Breaking Rapture however, makes zero sense.

You have that spell to reduce your enmity gain, or something to that effect.

You'd compare Cure V having less hate gain than Cure III to Animus Minuo? You are aware Animus is only a pathetic -5 Enmity, right?

Then with Rapture, figuring it would work with V (don't see why it wouldn't). SCH can make AOE erase (Esuna, though not taking more than one effect). SCH can cast barspells paired with AOE phalanx. AOE Soneskin. 1/tick regain (not much, but still equates to something).

We can lock ourselves for ~1 second using a Stratagem to buff Cures (though I don't think Rapture + Cure V is a wise choice). We can use a Stratagem and cast Erase in what takes you one spell. We can cast vastly weaker Bar spells to WHM (and Shell, might I add). We can again, use a Stratagem to cast Stoneskinga which is what you can do with a Cure spell. 1/tic regain is vastly weaker than Haste. Phalanx is good though, always fun to have to run right up to the mob to apply it to the people that need it and run back, makes main healing real easy.

And, they would still be able to manage their MP better, outside abyssea.

Huh? MP management? Between Refresh II, Ballad III, a surplus of gear that enhances both, a surplus of new Refresh gear, and Convert or Sublimation (and Light Arts + Penury), WHM shouldn't have any major MP issues anymore.

Aaralyn

05-13-2011, 06:09 PM

Please tell me you're trolling. Libra is the worst thing to happen to SCH since SE decided to release the job with an incomplete spell list. I don't even care if SE plans for Libra to make SCH shit friendship and magic in a few update, it was worthless when it was released, worthless when Animus spells were released and is probably only less worthless now because it's (apparently) attached to that horseshit !! proc system.

While I don't particularly have any issue with a buffed up Regen spell, I don't really see the point. Cure V is already there and shouldn't be too difficult to adjust, not to mention Cure IV is a subjob spell soon (or is it already?). Making a spell that heals 200HP/tic would however, require quite a bit of planning and balance. Again, Cure V is already there.
Breaking Rapture however, makes zero sense.

You'd compare Cure V having less hate gain than Cure III to Animus Minuo? You are aware Animus is only a pathetic -5 Enmity, right?

We can lock ourselves for ~1 second using a Stratagem to buff Cures (though I don't think Rapture + Cure V is a wise choice). We can use a Stratagem and cast Erase in what takes you one spell. We can cast vastly weaker Bar spells to WHM. We can again, use a Stratagem to cast Stoneskinga which is what you can do with a Cure spell. 1/tic regain is vastly weaker than Haste. Phalanx is good though, always fun to have to run right up to the mob to apply it to the people that need it and run back, makes main healing real easy.

Huh? MP management? Between Refresh II, Ballad III, a surplus of gear that enhances both, a surplus of new Refresh gear, and Convert or Sublimation (and Light Arts + Penury), WHM shouldn't have any major MP issues anymore.

It's all essentially the same thing.

I'm talking about the light arts side of it. Which, from my understanding, people /WHM for. So you would have haste and be able to give 1/tick regain.

I'm pretty sure SCH gets access to the same refresh gear WHM does, excluding Orison Bliuad +2. I don't know if SCH empyrean body has refresh. I know there's the WOTG earring, Wivre Hairpin is any job, pretty sure Stearc subligar was any job, Owleyes. Am I missing anything? Then if you're going to throw in Refresh II and ballads, same could be said of SCH. But in cases where there isn't refresh II or ballads, SCH has this refresh gear and a better sublimation.

People aren't going to care that WHM has better barspells. They didn't care before. They didn't care that we gave stoneskin (though not as strong as now) through curing before, either. They were both able to do the exact same job, though SCH managed MP better and was crowd control since /RDM was better then.

A HOT spell, I think would make SCH and WHM compliment each other nicely, with the right implementations.

"Phalanx is good though, always fun to have to run right up to the mob to apply it to the people that need it and run back, makes main healing real easy. "

And we don't have to do this for Esuna?

As far as Aminus Minuo, I'm sure you can find the right set of gear that has a good balance of cure potency, -enmity and MND. I know my friend had a good one. I'll have to ask her what it was. Or put one together myself. Aminus Minuo is 1 to 2 less slots taking -ENM in gear.

Breaking Rapture in a good way. Like, making the recast 3 minutes, or something that is nearly on the verge of being unbalanced.

Sotek

05-13-2011, 06:41 PM

I'm talking about the light arts side of it. Which, from my understanding, people /WHM for.

Wrong.

I'm pretty sure SCH gets access to the same refresh gear WHM does, excluding Orison Bliuad +2. I don't know if SCH empyrean body has refresh. I know there's the WOTG earring, Wivre Hairpin is any job, pretty sure Stearc subligar was any job, Owleyes. Am I missing anything? Then if you're going to throw in Refresh II and ballads, same could be said of SCH. But in cases where there isn't refresh II or ballads, SCH has this refresh gear and a better sublimation.

In said cases, SCH would be main healer? Well let me drone on back to why WHM is better. SCH will pull hate. If you haven't got a BRD and RDM (though RDM is largely ignorable), chances our your DDs aren't going to be killing quite as fast as they should be and I can only have flash backs of the horrors of main healing tanks without March. SCH having to Cure bomb with a spell that generates more hate than Cure VI doesn't last as long as it needs to in such a situation, which is why you bring a WHM. Hell, even when SCH did outclass WHM and BLM, both were still common place, if not vital (I never remember not seeing both jobs in Alliances) and that was before SE decided every job but SCH should play a part in making stuff drop.

As far as Aminus Minuo, I'm sure you can find the right set of gear that has a good balance of cure potency, -enmity and MND. I know my friend had a good one. I'll have to ask her what it was. Or put one together myself. Aminus Minuo is 1 to 2 less slots taking -ENM in gear.

You've completely missed the point. WHM still generates vastly last enmity than SCH. SCH gaining more hate with Cure V doesn't change that (well actually it does, but it's a negative change on SCH, go figure). Animus Minuo doesn't do squat, both jobs can probably already cap out -enmity, it's a worthless spell.

Breaking Rapture in a good way. Like, making the recast 3 minutes, or something that is nearly on the verge of being unbalanced.

Wait, so not only do you want SCH to be able to cast the same level of Cure as any /WHM job, but you want to put the only thing that redeems SCH healing on a 3 minute timer? Get the fuck out of this thread. Now.

Aaralyn

05-13-2011, 06:59 PM

Wrong.

In said cases, SCH would be main healer? Well let me drone on back to why WHM is better. SCH will pull hate. If you haven't got a BRD and RDM (though RDM is largely ignorable), chances our your DDs aren't going to be killing quite as fast as they should be and I can only have flash backs of the horrors of main healing tanks without March. SCH having to Cure bomb with a spell that generates more hate than Cure VI doesn't last as long as it needs to in such a situation, which is why you bring a WHM. Hell, even when SCH did outclass WHM and BLM, both were still common place, if not vital (I never remember not seeing both jobs in Alliances) and that was before SE decided every job but SCH should play a part in making stuff drop.

You've completely missed the point. WHM still generates vastly last enmity than SCH. SCH gaining more hate with Cure V doesn't change that (well actually it does, but it's a negative change on SCH, go figure). Animus Minuo doesn't do squat, both jobs can probably already cap out -enmity, it's a worthless spell.

Wait, so not only do you want SCH to be able to cast the same level of Cure as any /WHM job, but you want to put the only thing that redeems SCH healing on a 3 minute timer? Get the fuck out of this thread. Now.

Ok, 2 minute timer? Or would you rather it still use up a charge?

If they were to get a HOT spell, they wouldn't need to rely on Rapture half as much.

If they were to do these things, SCH wouldn't need cure V, could cast cure IV less, and still be wanted.

And good for the WHMs on your server? My LS kept telling me to main SCH if I wanted to continue main healing. Other WHM friends in different linkshells, even on different servers were getting the same treatment.

And I guess I need to go tell my SCH friends they're doing it wrong as /WHM for healing. Huh.

Again, giving SCH cure V and striping the fixed enmity on it isn't going to fix SCH at all. It will just make it more like WHM, and then you will really have something to complain about as far as pulling hate.

Edit: If all of this stuff SCH main has is so useless, and it's Cure V you're wanting, play WHM?

Miera

05-14-2011, 12:51 AM

I don't know what it is about your Linkshell but I was told different, my friend.

I was asked, "Don't you have any other job that can be more useful?"

Yeah, You read that right, SCH and RDM wasn't useful enough for my Linkshell and it wasn't enough for shout groups because I would get "SCH No Thanks" Oh and guess what? my Linkshell is pressing me to Level WHM because "SCH Completely sucks at healing and can't proc anything"

And you want us to suck more so we get ignored more? Hell Even a PUP gets Cure V and VI Might as well change it to lolSCH

Why are you even here? All you are doing is bashing our job and wanting our job to get a Nerf, seriously.. Those are not even good suggestions and your haven't given a good reason why SCHs should not get Cure V and why should we waste getting better gear for -enmity gear? We still cure for crap, that wont do anything.

Sotek

05-14-2011, 04:55 AM

If all of this stuff SCH main has is so useless, and it's Cure V you're wanting, play WHM?

I said all the stuff SCH has is useless? My only complaint in regards to that is Libra/Animus and you're damn well deluded if you think either make SCH worth crap. I actually like having to use Stratagems for spells and being able to switch between two rolls, I only bring up things like Stratagems wasting a couple seconds to use is because that is what balances the job out to some degree.
You must be seriously be lacking in the ability to read because I've said numerous times that SCH Cure V wouldn't be anything like WHM Cure V. I wont level WHM, why? Because I don't want to stand there casting "Cure V > Cure VI > Cure V > etc." for the rest of my days. SCH main healing is far more entertaining for me, I simply demand Cure V because relying on Quick-Magic to proc when the shit hits the fan is completely stupid.

Again, giving SCH cure V and striping the fixed enmity on it isn't going to fix SCH at all. It will just make it more like WHM, and then you will really have something to complain about as far as pulling hate.

I'm already complaining about hate. WHM gains zero enmity. BLM can wipe its clean. DDs can all tank. I guess SE sees it as ironic that the one job that's meant to control enmity (even though THF does a better job of it) is the only one left that still has any hate gaining issues. But that's a digression, the point is SCH with Cure V wouldn't be anything like WHM. We'd be spamming Cure IV with the occasional Cure V while having to watch our hate, where as WHM spams Cure V/VI with zero concerns.
As for fixing SCH, I really don't know what to say. You say SCH is broken, which means you admit it's not doing it's role properly. Then you go ahead and say Cure V would just make it more like WHM (which it really wouldn't)? You are aware that Light Arts it meant to make SCH act as a WHM, right? You're either a complete idiot or you've had a massive lapse in cognitive ability recently.

And I guess I need to go tell my SCH friends they're doing it wrong as /WHM for healing. Huh.

No. You're wrong for saying SCH subs WHM for Light Arts, it doesn't. WHM is an irrelevant subjob the moment Lv.99 comes about, right now it's a reasonable subjob for Haste, but thats about it. Though if your SCH friends (and really, go run that Rapture on a 3 minute cool down idea by them, or better yet send them here, they might actually know wtf they're talking about) are in a party with either a RDM or WHM, /WHM becomes completely redundant because they don't need to cast Haste.

Honestly, I really don't know what else I can say about Cure V. You just don't want SCH to have it, that much is clear. Any WHM with an ounce of understanding of their job would realize that giving Cure V away with proper hate gain doesn't threaten them in the slightest. WHM can spam Cure V/VI until the cows come home. SCH could get off maybe six Cure Vs off before drawing unwanted attention. It's damn near the epitome of balance. Every single person who's said no to SCH getting Cure V has been completely incapable of countering this argument and you seem to be no different, don't bother saying "Just give SCH a HOT spell". For one I hate the acronym and for another its not an argument against getting Cure V at all.

Aaralyn

05-14-2011, 06:41 AM

Miera

05-14-2011, 07:49 AM

You're the one who said that the -5 ENM was crap. You said Libra was useless. Phalanx has no point of being casted, nor does regain....

Actually he said Phalanx was good but if you are main healing and having to run up to your party and applying it is a pain, mobs have AOE attacks that could potentially kill us.

No, I don't want SCH to get Cure V, glad you picked up on that. It baffles me that one of the things you're complaining about (hate), you're also suggesting Cure V is different for SCH in that it doesn't have fixed enmity, from what I've understood. That isn't going to fix the hate problems you're complaining about.

WHMs have higher MND, Healing magic and way more cure Potency Gear than SCHs they can still outcure a SCH even if we were allowed Cure V, so why are you whining? My Cure IV cures the same amount as a WHMs Cure III if that tells you anything and no, I don't have a cure staff, would that make much of a difference, nope.

Well you aren't being quite productive with Suggestions by the way and just because you don't want us to have Cure V doesn't mean we should suffer because of this.

Abyssea isn't the only event in the game. Outside abyssea, Cure V is rarely used, let alone Cure VI. Stop living in abyssea if you want to play SCH?

So now you are saying that we shouldn't come SCH in Abyssea what gives you the right to say that? I should be able to go, party and do endgame whenever the hell I want on SCH. Also Hello? Everyone lives in abyssea, you go find a group who isn't doing just that. I don't know when was the last time I have seen Nyzul Isle, Limbus and Sky shouts since Abyssea came out.

Miera, I was talking about at 75. Not now.

Well, That was then and this is now, the level cap is at 90, things have changed people are fighting harder mobs and Cure IV doesn't cut it, Cure V should have been a spell at level 76 for SCHs we got Protect and Shell V and they even threw us Stoneskin, Aquavail and Blink (We should have had those from the beginning)

Bottom line, SE's current direction seems to be to make each job unique. Giving SCH cure V isn't going to make it unique. It's going to make it a WHM with a little more tools to play with, that WHM/SCH can basically already do, only with less charges. No matter what they do to change Cure V. What makes you think they can make it different for SCH? It has fixed enmity. If they got rid of that for SCH, no amount of Tranquil Heart they give WHM to make up for it would help, without being broken, cause it would likely affect WHM's other cures, as well. I'm pretty sure they can't make two different formula's for 1 spell. I have none that come to mind.

You're wrong, what sets SCH apart from WHM isn't just higher tiers of Cures, You have Divine caress and Barspells and higher Regens that are way more potent and Protect and shell which is better than anyone's protect and shell defense, higher Mind, and healing magic, all sorts of Cure Potency gear Not to mention Afflatus Solace and Misery, come on, Cure V for SCH isn't that game breaking.

Aaralyn

05-14-2011, 07:55 AM

People on my server have started doing plenty outside abyssea.

I've never seen a good SCH die while running it to cast Phalanxga. And I've never died running in to Esuna. Just saying.

Now it just seems like you're complaining just to complain. I'll leave you to it.

Sotek

05-14-2011, 07:59 AM

You're the one who said that the -5 ENM was crap. You said Libra was useless. Phalanx has no point of being casted, nor does regain, according to what you said. The way you're wording things, Cure V is the only thing that is going to save SCH, and everything else about it except maybe Rapture, Penury, Accession and Celerity is useless (as far as Light Arts side goes). That's what I've gotten out of your complaining.

Going to have to quote me on saying Phalanx isn't worth casting, or Regain. In fact, quote me on saying Scholar is even broken and Cure V is the miracle cure. I'd rather you not put words in my mouth because you can't read.
As it is, I can main heal, but (and I'm not going to say this again) I want Cure V because relying on Quick-Magic when the shit hits the fan is asinine.

No, I don't want SCH to get Cure V, glad you picked up on that. It baffles me that one of the things you're complaining about (hate), you're also suggesting Cure V is different for SCH in that it doesn't have fixed enmity, from what I've understood. That isn't going to fix the hate problems you're complaining about.

I'm suggesting SCH get Cure V with proper hate. I wouldn't complain about that because *gasp* it's not a spell I'd want to spam, which is exactly why I don't level WHM. In fact the only aspect I complain about enmity is that SE doesn't know what they're doing with it and decided on a whim that SCH should control hate, followed by giving it absolute horseshit to do so with. Cure V has nothing to do about that, though. I'd actually quite like the irony of SCH being the only class left that has to worry about hate when it's meant to control it, but right now it's completely lacking the ability to control hate. Libra: "Oh I've got a lot of hate, I better stop main healing", brilliant. Animus: -5 Enmity, no significant change to gear, zero ability to actually control hate. Yes, I'll complain about that (and frequently have), it has nothing to do with Cure V being balanced to fit my needs, though.

Calling me an idiot and implying I can't read is a bit silly. I'm sorry we disagree? Was just saying what would make me want to level SCH, to make it unique from WHM. Only reason I suggested you level WHM is because, as I said, you were complaining about most of the things SCH main has, and not complaining about stuff you get from using it as a support job.

And this is why I say you can't read. I wasn't complaining, I was stating facts. I have to run up to people to use Stoneskinga (uses one Stratagem) and spam Rapture with Cure IV (another Stratagem) to do what WHM just does with one spell. This isn't complaining. It's a damn fact and if you can't see how vastly better that makes WHM (regardless of Cure V) then yes, you are an idiot. You've effectively been ignoring an argument for why WHM is better regardless, while trying to argue SCH would be better if given Cure V, it's no wonder I'm calling you an idiot.

Abyssea isn't the only event in the game. Outside abyssea, Cure V is rarely used, let alone Cure VI. Stop living in abyssea if you want to play SCH?

But Abyssea is an event in the game, quite a big one at that. Forgive me for wanting to bring a job I enjoy to what is currently the largest endgame event in the game.

Aaralyn

05-14-2011, 08:25 AM

Now who's putting words in whose mouth? I never said SCH would be better than WHM. What I said is it would be too much like WHM, and people before didn't care that WHM still healed better than SCH, so if they did get Cure V, what would make this time different in their eyes? Not much has changed, except that our cureskin is now stronger than it was. Yes, our barspells have always been stronger. Yes, we don't have to use a stratagem for for DD's to have stoneskin on them. I'm well aware of all of this. But people aren't going to care.

Maybe what I suggested wont help it either. Maybe it is stupid. But if you can't think of ways that could make SCH better without bringing up Cure V, then it is going to be the exact same way it was before. I've already been told (jokingly sometimes) by some friends that if SCH gets Cure V, I may as well ditch WHM and level SCH. So yes, my concerns for SCH getting cure V do have reason.

Sotek

05-14-2011, 08:46 AM

Jesus Christ, do we really have to go around in circles?

You're just ignoring the very first aspect of SCH Cure V that was ever brought up. WHM has Cure V with virtually no hate gain. SCH has Cure V with greater hate gain than Cure IV like it should have. People aren't going to use SCH over WHM when WHM is better, even if you somehow think they will, they're not going to use SCH when it's actually going to pull hate. That is the number one reason WHM is king, the fact that it's better in just about every other regard is just a further kick in the teeth of you're argument.

Giving SCH something different that effectively does the same thing still isn't an argument against SCH Cure V. It's an alternative and it's completely unneeded. Why the hell go through the bother of making a new spell when they can just slightly adjust a current one? It doesn't make SCH unique. SCH is already unique while having 90% of the same spells as WHM and BLM. Asking for a whole new spell to do the role of one that's already in the damn game for the sake of superficial uniqueness is just ridiculous.

Aaralyn

05-14-2011, 09:15 AM

As I have already said. I can't think of any spell in the game that has 2 different formula's. So they would have to break the -50 ENM cap for WHM. Because, as I have already said, no amount of tranquil heart would balance things, as it would likely effect Cure IV for WHMs as well. That would be broken.

Sotek

05-14-2011, 09:50 AM

How would Cure IV with reduced hate be anymore broken than Cure V? As it is WHM will never pull hate, increasing its ability to not gain hate would effectively do nothing, while allowing SCH to gain access to an emergency Cure spell with very little effort on the programmers side. An alternative like a HOT spell would require a lot of balancing and testing, not to mention it doesn't even fill the slot of an emergency cure like the Cure V I'm suggestion. HOT would be something you keep on someone full time and would probably require less effort than "Cure V > Cure VI" spam.

Tranquil Heart is awful if that's there solution (in which case we are getting Cure V anyway), a trait that just ignores -enmity altogether and halves (or whatever) the enmity gain of Cure spells would be ideal or hell, why can't they just give Cure V two formulas? Either is still far easier than producing a whole new spell.

Aaralyn

05-14-2011, 10:05 AM

I assume one spell can't have two different formula's because I have yet to see it, that I can recall. Given that, maybe it's restricted by mechanics. I don't know.

Saying WHM never pull hate is a bit of a stretch. Maybe it's just the way my LS does things that cause DD's enmity to decay through getting hit, but me and my friend pull hate on WHM and end up tanking some NMs for about a minute or 2 sometimes. That's at -50 ENM cap. The only reason we are pulling hate is because we do still use Cure IV. A WHM should never wait for a DD to take enough damage to use just V and VI.

Raksha

05-14-2011, 10:23 AM

I assume one spell can't have two different formula's because I have yet to see it, that I can recall. Given that, maybe it's restricted by mechanics. I don't know.

It wouldn't have to have to have 2 formulas per se.

(spell = cure5)
[cure = 800hp]
<WHM?>
[Enmity = 300]
<SCH?>
[Enmity = 600]
(/spell)

Aaralyn

05-14-2011, 10:32 AM

It wouldn't have to have to have 2 formulas per se.

(spell = cure5)
[cure = 800hp]
<WHM?>
[Enmity = 300]
<SCH?>
[Enmity = 600]
(/spell)

I don't see how they could do this without giving WHM an extra trait or ability that breaks the -ENM cap, just for Cure V. I'm talking about the formula (maybe that's the wrong word) that makes it so Cure V has fixed enmity. I don't think you can have one Cure V with fixed 300 enmity, and another Cure V with 600 enmity that isn't fixed.

Raksha

05-14-2011, 11:35 AM

I don't see how they could do this without giving WHM an extra trait or ability that breaks the -ENM cap, just for Cure V. I'm talking about the formula (maybe that's the wrong word) that makes it so Cure V has fixed enmity. I don't think you can have one Cure V with fixed 300 enmity, and another Cure V with 600 enmity that isn't fixed.

Like I said, you dont need 2 cure 5s

Just have cure5 check wether your mainjob is whm, if so give low enmity, else give high enmity.

It's actually pretty easy to do. If-then statements are some of the first things you learn when studying a programming language.

<if spell="Cure V">

<amount_cured=" MND + Healing skill * cure potency" />

<if $main_job = "WHM">

<Enmity_Gained="400 CE", "700 VE" />

</if>

<else>

<Enmity_Gained="$Cure_enmity_formula" />

</else>
</if>

Crude, I know, but it really isnt that difficult. You could probably learn to do something similar in 1 hour of starting a basic programming language.

(To all of those real coders out there: forgive me!)

Aaralyn

05-14-2011, 11:40 AM

Like I said, you dont need 2 cure 5s

Just have cure5 check wether your mainjob is whm, if so give low enmity, else give high enmity.

It's actually pretty easy to do. If-then statements are some of the first things you learn when studying a programming language.

<if spell="Cure V">
<amount_cured=" MND + Healing skill * cure potency" />
<if $main_job = "WHM">
<Enmity_Gained="400 CE", "700 VE" />
</if>
<else>
<Enmity_Gained="$Cure_enmity_formula" />
</else>
</if>

Crude, I know, but it really isnt that difficult. You could probably learn to do something similar in 1 hour if you tried.

Said I was assuming. Can you name a spell that has the example you've written out?

Raksha

05-14-2011, 11:43 AM

Said I was assuming. But I'm retarded, so can you name a spell that has the example you've written out?

Utsusemi: Ni.

Merton9999

05-14-2011, 12:08 PM

The only reason we are pulling hate is because we do still use Cure IV. A WHM should never wait for a DD to take enough damage to use just V and VI.

Yeah, um, I'm confused by this, but I don't know why because I see the misconception all the time. First, I play WHM a lot more than SCH these days. Mostly because my LS whines like hell if I come SCH instead, and second, because I hate not having Cure V to main heal. So you can guess how I feel about SC getting a Cure V equivalent.

Anyway, Sotek is not off on the never pulling hate statement. I can't think of any time I have ever gotten hate on WHM on anything in Abyssea, unless I am being totally lazy on some crap NM and spamming after their hate reset move because who cares.

Why? I never use any other Cure spell other than Cure V and VI. What I'm confused about is this concept that you have to wait until the math works out to make Cure V cure its full amount, so you use Cure IV instead. This is a necessary requirement outside of Abyssea, where MP is an issue. Inside, the idea of losing out on Cure/MP ratio is meaningless. There is no need to wait until Cure V is numerically justifiable. You just use it anyway, regardless of what value you're comfortable letting the player's HP bar reach. Don't want to wait till they're low enough? Don't! But cast Cure V, not IV. Want to cure someone at 99%? Cast Cure V. It makes no difference if some of the potency is wasted because the MP cost doesn't matter and you gained less hate than you would have had you casted Cure IV. My guess is this is why you are pulling hate and tanking on WHM in Abyssea. That's craziness.

In fact, cast Cure V on your blink tank when their HP is near full to maintain their stoneskin. Oh, and macro in Orison body instead of Facio for that Cure V macro. I see people screaming all the time that Orison body is useless because there is no potency on it. It's because they're stuck in this pre-Abyssea concept that you can only use Cure V if it will cure near its full amount, which is ridiculous with infinite MP.

With that in mind, if we are staying in Abyssea, the "WHM doesn't get hate" thing is absolutely a defining trait. My guess is Tranquil Heart is going to be tested over the next few months to see if removing the enmity property on Cure V will work for RDM, PLD and SCH. They're not going to have to make Cure V use two formulas. They're going to change the spell to have normal hate progression and give WHM more tiers of Tranquil Heart so that WHM Cure V hate is unchanged, and SCH, RDM and PLD get more hate from it than WHM does. This is the exact solution posted by Sotek several pages back. Everyone wins with this. SCH and RDM can be adequate healers without getting so frustrated trying that they wish they came WHM (a problem for me every time) and WHM can stay special with its ability to remain effectively invisible.

Well, idk if PLD will win but w/e. Oh, and those of use who are hoping more for something that boosts SCH's unique abilities will probably look at the August update and say "finally" at Cure V instead of "yay" for something cool. Oh well, I'll be happy with December's coolness and go solo some light skillchains.

Raksha

05-14-2011, 12:32 PM

They're going to change the spell to have normal hate progression and give WHM more tiers of Tranquil Heart so that WHM Cure V hate is unchanged, and SCH, RDM and PLD get more hate from it than WHM does.

Unless the highest tiers (the WHM-only ones) break the -50% enmity cap, SCH and RDM WON'T gain more hate from cure5 than WHM. All three jobs will be casting in -50% enmity gear/traits anyway.

The way it is now, WHM with -50% enmity will gain 200CE and 350VE from a cure5 (regardless of amount cured). If they change this to use the same cure enmity formula that cure4 uses, that same WHM will gain (assuming 1000 hp cured) ~323CE and ~1935 VE (we dont have good numbers for lvl90).

Any job which can cast cure5 ( or any cure for that matter) for 1000hp, while wearing -50% enmity, at lvl 90, will gain the same enmity as a WHM (under the tranquil heart model).

Aaralyn

05-14-2011, 12:57 PM

Utsusemi: Ni.

Thank you.

Merton, doing that in the LS I'm in wouldn't cut it. If I see an NM readying a TP move that would hurt a lot, then I would cast Cure V or VI so the SS would soften the blow, then cure up however much damage they received. Because of that, there have been times where I've had to use Cure IV because I used Cure V or VI for the SS, after having used one or the other for when shadows are down (our MNK tanks come sub /WAR, is that normal?). Apademak for example.

We also have 2 to 3 DDs at least on everything after procs, instead of just one. Both my friend and I keep auspice up. We both full time Orison Bliaud +2 except for curaga's. It's just the way this LS is. Spamming Cure V and VI would indeed be boring. Her and I don't mind having to tank occasionally. We have -PDT sets and -MDT sets. We've never died during the times we've had to tank. So no harm.

Sometimes, we even have to cast Curaga III and IV!

Merton9999

05-14-2011, 01:01 PM

If they're using a Tranquil Heart job trait to allow for a Cure V enmity behavior difference in the jobs, wouldn't the May 9 change to job traits (they can now be extended beyond their previous max with gear, spells and other job abilities) allow for the -50% cap break?

Merton9999

05-14-2011, 01:12 PM

I can see examples where you'd need to throw a Cure IV just because it's another Cure that isn't down. My question would be how this is happening so often that you pull hate for a significant amount of time. PDT and MDT sets are a given I'd say. They're certainly great for popping on WHM when I do get that random smack or two. But my point is that this happens so infrequently on WHM to the point of being negligible, whereas I cannot say that at all on SCH. Maybe our LS experience are just that different.

In the end, I still think the enmity difference in the two jobs is huge to the point that if Cure V were added to SCH with an enmity adjustment there would still be something quite special for using a WHM as main healer over SCH, even if you discount things like barspells, auspice, shell potency, afflatus solace, esuna, divine benison, etc.

I do have to say though that I'm not about Cure spamming and that's actually why I like SCH so much. I'd go for an alternative to Cure V, but my guess is we're not going to see anything more creative than Tranquil Heart and Enmity adjustments.

Sotek

05-14-2011, 01:14 PM

Unless the highest tiers (the WHM-only ones) break the -50% enmity cap, SCH and RDM WON'T gain more hate from cure5 than WHM. All three jobs will be casting in -50% enmity gear/traits anyway.

The way it is now, WHM with -50% enmity will gain 200CE and 350VE from a cure5 (regardless of amount cured). If they change this to use the same cure enmity formula that cure4 uses, that same WHM will gain (assuming 1000 hp cured) ~323CE and ~1935 VE (we dont have good numbers for lvl90).

Any job which can cast cure5 ( or any cure for that matter) for 1000hp, while wearing -50% enmity, at lvl 90, will gain the same enmity as a WHM (under the tranquil heart model).

Do we actually know how Tranquil Heart works yet? I highly doubt it after Animus, but it could simply work as -Enmity for Cure spells that is calculated before regular -Enmity. So we'd have Tranquil Heart Enmity (tEnmity) and Regular Enmity (rEnmity), giving a formula like: "(Base Cure CE/VE * tEnmity) * rEnmity"

Savant's loafers +2 stick a *1.1 before MAB when calculating magic damage, so I don't think it would be impossible for SE to do such a thing (if I'm grossly misunderstanding actual game mechanics sorry, it's late). Regardless I don't think Tranquil Heart is the answer simply because SE gave it to SCH and RDM, too. We only get it nine levels later than WHM, so I highly doubt we're very far behind on tiers.