Weapom Skill Adjustments: What we have and what we need

[Kagato]

*Because the other topic turned into a flame-filled mess between me, Jar, and Afro that spanned over a few full pages, I have recreated the topic and took the proper procedures to make sure I don't get caught up in that childish mess again. I have added a Notes section for any interesting suggestions and who made them, starting with the relevant posts from the previous topic.*


After speaking to the development team about this, they confirmed that they're planning adjustments for a wide variety of weapon skills, which will include the break-related WS, too. :)

Seems many people have gotten through to SE developers in regards to Weapon Skills. So in order to make it easier for them, I wanted to make a topic dedicated to Scythe and Great Sword Weapon Skills. Not just Guillotine, not just Quietus, not just Torcleaver. All of our main ones.

As always, with all of the topics I make, please be respectful towards opinions. Not everyone will feel the same way you do about something, but the fastest way to look like an idiot is to treat someone else like an idiot. So please, be respectful.

Note: There will be people who ignore this and will proceed to completely flame you for your opinion. Don't do what I did and flame back. Instead, completely ignore them and only respond and hold conversations with people who are mature enough to agree or disagree with someone's posts in a calm and grown-up way.

Now then, here are my opinions on the top Weaponskills we have for Scythe and Greatsword, what their problems are and how to fix them without ruining balance.


Scythe

Guillotine
The Problem: Our only consistently good Scythe Weapon Skill.

The Solution: Adjust one of the other Scythe Weapon Skills so we can have something stronger than Guillotine that we go out of our way to earn.

Insurgency
The Problem: Time-Consuming to get, even without getting the Weapon itself. Delivers a fourfold attack like Guillotine but uses weaker modifiers and has far more inconsistent damage overall, making Guillotine a better overall choice. Requires 300TP to show any real noticeable damage but 3 100TP Guillotines would do far more damage.

The Solution: Strengthen the modifiers and TP damage multipliers in order to make a 100TP Insurgency have damage consistently stronger than Guillotine. Insurgency was crafted to be a pure damage Weapon Skill so it should reflect that.

Catastrophe
The Problem: I personally do not see any other than it requires Apocalypse.

The Solution: I don't recommend any.

Quietus
The Problem: Requires Redemption or Penitence. Damage does not reflect the modifiers and TP effect for the kind of Weapon that uses it and the difficulty to obtain it.

The Solution: Damage should be adjusted to be higher than it currently is. Most of it is in regards to the amount of Defense it ignores. I feel Quietus should reflect the properties of Twilight Scythe, but in Weapon Skill Form.



*Overview: I feel Quietus should be ideal against high defense monsters with defense boost skills and traits while Insurgency should be ideal against everything else. Guillotine has been a nice WS so far, but it's time to move on. Both Insurgency and Quietus should be noticeably stronger than Guillotine by now, especially considering they're quested Weapon Skills.


Great Swords
Torcleaver
The Problem: It's DRK's only strong Weapon Skill that can keep up with other job Weapon Skills. Exclusive to Caladbolg and it's Walk of Echo's alternate (forgot the name).

The Solution: None. It's a fantastic weapon skill for Great Sword, even if it's the only good one we have.


Scourge
The Problem: Damage and Effect do not reflect the power of the weapon and difficulty to obtain. Basically, might as well just get Caladbolg with Torcleaver.

The Solution: The weaponskill itself needs to be a lot stronger than it already is, though not as strong as Torcleaver. The aftermath effect should offer a stronger critical hit rate as well as a boost to critical hit damage. To further boost Scourge, it should become a critical hit weapon skill so it's own aftermath boosts it's critical damage even further.



*Overview: I think both weapon skills should have their uses so that there is more freedom of choice between weapons. Since Ragnarok is harder to obtain (by a lot), making Scourge a critical hit weapon skill so the aftermath boosts it even more, Scourge should do damage that rivals Torcleaver in the end, yet still boosting normal melee swings.


---------------------------------------
Notes:

*Urteil suggested a Greatsword Weapon Skill that's similar in properties to Catastrophe.
*Rezeak suggested boosts to our magic-based weapon skills such as Infernal Scythe. Also agrees that Insurgency needs a boost.

[Afrohatch]

I had such a beautiful post all typed up!

Catastrophe: Will reclaim it's spot back on top of scythes in my opinion if the aftermath is switched to JA haste instead of gear haste.

Quietus: Make it 2-3 hit and call it a day, there's your guillo replacement. Redemp hits hard, a buffed Q will be a serious rival to Cala.

Guillotine: Use it while farming for Caladbolg, then never use it again.

Insurgency: See guillotine

Torcleaver: 100% worth the work for it, easiest empyrean path to 90, get it and you won't feel the urge to make a thread like this

Scourge: Who cares if you have torcleaver! But for the few that were crazy enough to get a raggyrok, a dmg increase would be nice for it. The crit rate of the gswd and aftermath might be enough to trump Cala, but scourge is going to need a hell of a boost to do it.

COME AT ME

[Xsilver]

Except with update catastrophe switching to ja haste will work for 1 min when lr isnt up

[vedder]

caladolg honestly, hmm, id like to see it become multihit, myth behind cala and all, but no serious issue beyond wsc mod
ragnarok---- turn the weaponskill into crit hit and the mods are complete bs should be str dex not mnd chr
redemption-- my biggest thing is its oogly in my opinion, the ws is has shit mods an ftp and tp-def thing is poop too, needs so much fixed with it i cant even start

as for weaponskills

guillotine-- we had some good times my friend but all good things must come to an end
insurgency-- mods are more in line with drk being str an int but theyre low, really low, and ftp mod is low too, and there was some weird unknown crap bout damage spikes i still havnt seen any real solid info on, overall, i havnt bothered to quest it, no reason too since it underperforms

otherwise yea, spiral and ground strike need work on em spinning slash was good for what it was, but it can join guilly in the pasture in my opinion

[Kagato]

caladolg honestly, hmm, id like to see it become multihit, myth behind cala and all, but no serious issue beyond wsc mod
ragnarok---- turn the weaponskill into crit hit and the mods are complete bs should be str dex not mnd chr
redemption-- my biggest thing is its oogly in my opinion, the ws is has shit mods an ftp and tp-def thing is poop too, needs so much fixed with it i cant even start

as for weaponskills

guillotine-- we had some good times my friend but all good things must come to an end
insurgency-- mods are more in line with drk being str an int but theyre low, really low, and ftp mod is low too, and there was some weird unknown crap bout damage spikes i still havnt seen any real solid info on, overall, i havnt bothered to quest it, no reason too since it underperforms

otherwise yea, spiral and ground strike need work on em spinning slash was good for what it was, but it can join guilly in the pasture in my opinion

I pretty much agree with all that you said. Our Scythe weapon skills just aren't solid performers outside out old level 60 skill-obtained WS. It's time to have a reason to move away from them. Thats why I want both Quietus and Insurgency to recieve a buff in some form to make them better performers than Guillotine.

[Dart]

personally i'd be fine with a crit mod for insurg. I'd love to see the tests that kirschy could do with it.

The only reason I said the same for guillotine is how they did Raging Rush. Added a crit element, and was easy to do for them. BAM broken ws. (yes even before abyssea)

YES TO JA HASTE FROM CATASTROPHE

Also make the double/triple dmg procs the same as empy aftermath. 30-50%

[Kagato]

I still don't think crit damage is what we need. After all, it only really caters to the Razed Ruins atma. Would it be nice? Hell yes. I just think the problem lies mostly in the modifiers and fTP. Look at Insurgency, for example. Like I said, it's a mere .5 damage dealt from 100TP. You'd need 300TP do do the full amount it was designed to do.

[Dart]

I'm not disagreeing but I'm not talking about razed ruins entirely either. With proper gearing RR is war's strongest non empy ws. Yes even outside abyssea, You just need that 50 dex, and drk can do this as well. Especially now with all the gear selections we have. We also get access to stuff like Zahak's mail etc.

Highest base dmg weapons in the game, highest base str. Str/dex gear availability out the ass. Crit mod on guillotine or insurgency would fix our ws phase in and outside abyssea. It would just require some actual effort in our gearsets on our part.

Again outside you just need that 50 dex, which is fairly easy to do now.

[Xsilver]

why would you want cata aftermath as ja haste when that gimps it after update(assuming lr isnt nerfed a bit)?
I havent used guillo for a long time, but outside of abyss I don't think that other regular ws's destroy it by any means,
and I think that giving us a crit mod to our ws's, just so we can do more dmg inside of it is not what we need..

[Dart]

go back and reread what I typed

[vedder]

honestly the AM on apoc has been backed into a corner hard, ja haste pretty much capped alot(not always but alot) gear haste been capped a long time, aside from usin AM up/down swaps, re-making it as magic haste while nice i doubt it will happen, even more so if the "fabled" abs-speed does get created (/doubt)

[Kagato]

Make the haste toward magic cap..

Fixed... and broken.

[Apocalypse]

beef guillo up for those who dont have insurgency, cata or even Quentius.. oh yea Spiral Hell could use some update xD

[Radio]

I like the idea of buffing Insurgency's mods...

[Kagato]

I don't think that's a good idea. Guillotine is an old weapon skill and I feel like it's time to leave it behind. Insurgency in design mimics Guillotine, yet it's weaker. It should be stronger than Guillotine in every way. Quietus as well.

Spiral Hell is also pretty lacking, though I don't know if we should bother asking for a boost to that unless it somehow becomes a big, boosted single-hit skill.

I don't really care either way, now that I think about it. I'm just ready to move away from Guillotine as the Scythe Weapon Skill of choice. Even Great Sword was stuck on Spinning Slash until Torcleaver came.

[Taint]

Cata haste needs to stay gear haste or if they want to buff it make it magic haste or if they want to break it go 06-07 on it and make it its own catagory that breaks 80%.

[Urteil]

Give greatsword a Drain WS minus haste.

Its stupid that Sword has one, and the only one that DRK has access to is on the relic scythe.

[Apocalypse]

Guillo may be old but still hold dmg in ws they may just go with str mod only instead havin mnd included,just saying.

[Jar]

Guillo may be old but still hold dmg in ws they may just go with str mod only instead havin mnd included,just saying.

or you guys could not ask for weaponskills that outstage empy and just get unlazy

srsly..

[Atomic_Skull]

Why not ask for Dark Knight to be renamed to Munchkin while you are at it?

Nyzul WS were ment to fill a hole with their respective job not necessarily be the best WS. In fact the ONLY jobs where the Nyzul WS is clearly better than anything else was DRG and PLD, and that was specifically because DRG WS damage wasn't keeping up with polearm SAMs and PLDs couldn't do enough damage to HNMs to keep hate effectively (well they couldn't after either but hate generation via damage was SE's intention with Atonement)

Atonement: Damage based on Enmity, does same damage to everything. 750 damage is mediocre on pink birds but good on HNMs.

Mandalic Stab: Attack bonus WS for high DEF targets. Gives THF an equivalent to Tachi: Kasha, Spinning Slash, etc.

Drakesbane: SAM is doing more damage with Penta Thrust than DRG.

Tachi: Rana Multi-hit for SAM

Leaden Salute: Decent WS that doesn't depend on weapon DMG or ranged ACC, gets bonus from Quickdraw.

Insurgency: Guillotine that makes Light SC.

Insurgency was NEVER intended to be a new better WS for DRK, it was meant to give them an option on Scythe for making Light.


Anyway, instead of making Guillotine or Insurgency a crit hit, which would be broken with the new Last Resort change, fix Cross Reaper's damage multiplier at 2.0 and make TP=chance of critical hit.

Ukko's Fury Lite for DRK, problem solved.


As for relics.

All relic WS should be changed to "Delivers a critical attack, damage varies with TP" No "chance of a critical hit" they just deliver a crit, always.

All relic WS should do the same number of hits as depicted in the animation (this would balance the 1H and 2H relics as the 1Hs all depict multi hit animations and are lower DMG weapons)

Extra damage proc should be raised to 30%.

Aftermath effects should be increased in potency and duration. In some cases it should be adjusted as well. e.g. Yoichinoyumi's aftermath should have RACC/RATT not just RACC, Mandau should have +40% critical hit rate not +10%, Apocalypse's 10% haste should be non job ability non gear non magical.

All relic WS should be changed to 4.0/5.5/6.5 fTP at 100%/200/%300% TP

Relics that have useless or counterproductive additional effects should have those changed to something useful. (e.g. Mandau's Poison changed to poison/plague with a stronger DOT and no longer wakes mobs)

1H relics should have ACC stat added, 2H relics should have ATT stat added similar to ranged relics.

All relics should have some degree of ignore cRatio on all attacks.


Relics should not be made easier to obtain. Instead they should be made to be worth the effort. They shouldn't just be better, they should be "OMGWTFBBQ!!!ONEONEONE" better.

[Atomic_Skull]

honestly the AM on apoc has been backed into a corner hard, ja haste pretty much capped alot(not always but alot) gear haste been capped a long time, aside from usin AM up/down swaps, re-making it as magic haste while nice i doubt it will happen, even more so if the "fabled" abs-speed does get created (/doubt)

Apoc lets you wear AF3+2 head/hands/legs/feet full time and replace the weak body with an Adaberk and still have capped gear haste.

[Jar]

Why not ask for Dark Knight to be renamed to Munchkin while you are at it?

Nyzul WS were ment to fill a hole with their respective job not necessarily be the best WS. In fact the ONLY jobs where the Nyzul WS is clearly better than anything else was DRG and PLD, and that was specifically because DRG WS damage wasn't keeping up with polearm SAMs and PLDs couldn't do enough damage to HNMs to keep hate effectively (well they couldn't after either but hate generation via damage was SE's intention with Atonement)

Atonement: Damage based on Enmity, does same damage to everything. 750 damage is mediocre on pink birds but good on HNMs.

Mandalic Stab: Attack bonus WS for high DEF targets. Gives THF an equivalent to Tachi: Kasha, Spinning Slash, etc.

Drakesbane: SAM is doing more damage with Penta Thrust than DRG.

Tachi: Rana Multi-hit for SAM

Leaden Salute: Decent WS that doesn't depend on weapon DMG or ranged ACC, gets bonus from Quickdraw.

Insurgency: Guillotine that makes Light SC.

Insurgency was NEVER intended to be a new better WS for DRK, it was meant to give them an option on Scythe for making Light.


Anyway, instead of making Guillotine or Insurgency a crit hit, which would be broken with the new Last Resort change, fix Cross Reaper's damage multiplier at 2.0 and make TP=chance of critical hit.

Ukko's Fury Lite for DRK, problem solved.


As for relics.

All relic WS should be changed to "Delivers a critical attack, damage varies with TP" No "chance of a critical hit" they just deliver a crit, always.

All relic WS should do the same number of hits as depicted in the animation (this would balance the 1H and 2H relics as the 1Hs all depict multi hit animations and are lower DMG weapons)

Extra damage proc should be raised to 30%.

Aftermath effects should be increased in potency and duration. In some cases it should be adjusted as well. e.g. Yoichinoyumi's aftermath should have RACC/RATT not just RACC, Mandau should have +40% critical hit rate not +10%, Apocalypse's 10% haste should be non job ability non gear non magical.

All relic WS should be changed to 4.0/5.5/6.5 fTP at 100%/200/%300% TP

Relics that have useless or counterproductive additional effects should have those changed to something useful. (e.g. Mandau's Poison changed to poison/plague with a stronger DOT and no longer wakes mobs)

1H relics should have ACC stat added, 2H relics should have ATT stat added similar to ranged relics.

All relics should have some degree of ignore cRatio on all attacks.


Relics should not be made easier to obtain. Instead they should be made to be worth the effort. They shouldn't just be better, they should be "OMGWTFBBQ!!!ONEONEONE" better.

First Most of this i disagree with for varying reasons..

But While relics should get a boost i dont think they need something as massive as what you describe

[Kagato]

Apoc lets you wear AF3+2 head/hands/legs/feet full time and replace the weak body with an Adaberk and still have capped gear haste.

Why would you want to wear an Adaberk now? There's several better TP and WS choices now.

[Gradd]

E:body sucks, FStr and Ddex are both capped inside abyssea, and ACC is definatley capped with apoc (is with normal drks using ace's hose) AF3+2 body is win even for apoc. If I had to pick a body for my apoc to TP in that wasnt AF body it would be Grim or Ares.

[Dart]

Apoc lets you wear AF3+2 head/hands/legs/feet full time and replace the weak body with an Adaberk and still have capped gear haste.

why on earth am i wearing ebody still? I don't need the acc <_<

[vedder]

i was gonna say something in this regard before but figured id wait cause atomic seems fairly smart, glad the vets stepped in though. if i wasnt using bale+2 id be using either timarli (haste) try to lower xhit build (askar/aurum) or buck up an buy a grim(great -pdt str and attack) or rock my ares ft. sadly ebody isnt as usefull as it once was an your looking at a guy who fought 100+fafs and a good 40 hogs trying for one, id still take it if i could but it would only be a trophy piece with the current state of things

[Atomic_Skull]

Why would you want to wear an Adaberk now? There's several better TP and WS choices now.


Nevertheless Apoc lets you drop the +2 Bale Cuirass and haste legs/feet (aces, homam or whatever) and replace them all with something better while maintaining capped haste.

[Rezeak]

Apoc + Full af+3 for that set bonus ?

[Kagato]

Most certainly.

[vedder]

big question though is do they maintain xhit build losing stp from aces feet/goading if they swap those two itmes out. dart? taint?

[Rezeak]

U need 39 Store tp to 5 hit

/SAM = 15
Rose + Brutals = 5
Raja = 5
Hoard = 4
Goading = 5
White Tath = 2
= 36 Store tp

Choices are....
Carabonara
Use tactical mantle (3% Da loss)
Use Ace's hose (3% Double DMG loss)
Use VV to make up the last 4-6 tp u need

I don't think you'd lose goading

[Dart]

it you're 5 hitting and don't want to be forced to ws in some really weird/stupid gear. Carbonara is the food of choice. (also helps with the AM set problem)

I personally never count on regain for my builds. Stick to the numbers.

[Kagato]

Thats what I'm doing. I plan on finishing and maining Redemption until I get Apoc someday, but getting a 5-hit with Redemption while maintaining the AF+2 haste build isn't easy. It's possible if I acquire some small pieces, like Bushido's cape and Attila's Earring, but that'll suck away quite a few stats overall. If only there was one more +3 STP item that a DRK could use that wouldn't have to sacrifice a big piece of gear.

Edit: Oh, duh! I'm a dummy. I forgot about White tahlum! I can use that and the earring so I can keep wearing my mantle. Derp. x.x

Ok! Redemption 5-hit is a go!

[vedder]

i must be over tired, had to reread this 4x just to understand >< lol been crunching numbers too long today

kagato, whats the hit build look like for 5hit redemption?

[Kagato]

kagato, whats the hit build look like for 5hit redemption?

You need 33 more STP as a DRK/SAM using Redemption, which has a base delay of 502.

Assuming you want to still wear +2 Bale Body, Head, and gloves as well as Ace's Pants and Feet, this is the set you need:

Rose Strap: +4
White Tathlum: +2
Brutal Earring: +1
Hoard Ring: +4
Raja's Ring: +5
Goading Belt: +5
Ace's Sabatons: +5
Carbonara: +6

Chivalrous chain: +1
OR
Attila's Earring: +1
OR
Bushido Cape: +1

I personally think you should choose the Chivalrous Chain as your remaining +1 since it still has decent TPing stats. However, if you like the constant refresh from the Bale Choker, go for the Earring instead and have the Bale Earring on standby for WS macros. The Bushido's cape is another option, but Atheling Mantle is way too good to pass up as a TP item, IMO. Still, it's up to you.

Besides, there may be better gear later with more Store TP. Raja's ring may even be augmented through synergy to have a stronger StoreTP state or something, so just go with what you'll be happy with while keeping a lookout for anything that has an extra StoreTP point to make it a full +33 with everything else and the food.

You should be getting 20.1TP per swing this way, according to the calculator.

[vedder]

nice, hows the rebuild? does it drop a hit with your ws gear?

[Sedres]

We really need to move away from this "give DRK a crit ws" mentality. The upcoming vit in crit calculations is obviously being implemented to address the razed ruin numbers. I do agree that it would be nice to get some decent non-quest WS, we've been using the same ones for years, but same that I'd rather they fill a niche for that weapon it doesn't have, ie a scythe WS that performs like spinning slash (spiral help with a gekko-esque pdif bonus) or a multi-hit greatsword WS (ever play devil may cry 4, where Nero crashes his sword into the ground repeatedly..?)

[Vazerus]

The upcoming vit in crit calculations is obviously being implemented to address the razed ruin numbers.

No, it isn't. If you even read what the devs said, they responded saying it was a buff for players only and will not be applied to mobs.

[Dart]

reading is hard.

you forgot one key piece of gear for a 5 hit build.

tactical mantle. Don't leave home without it!

if you wear a chiv chain, attilla's, or a bushido cape I'll murder you in your sleep!

[vedder]

lol kagato aggro'd a dart! hope it dont link! though he did say he prefered atheling to tact........

crap does this put me on the enmity list?

[Kagato]

That's a possible back piece. Surprised it didn't show up in the Store TP gear listings on ffxiclopedia.

Still, the difference is actually negligible. Considering thegear choices, I'd rather not try and work out the match, but at a glance at what the gear setup would be comparing a tactical mantle build to my build, I think my build would offer a little more power since you'd save a lot more +ATK that way and even have 1% more DA while not losing much other than Refresh while TPing.

Besides, you'd end up wasting STP using that back piece using the setup I have unless you completely replace another +6 STP, which would be the Tathlum with either Rose or Hoard. You'd need another+1 STP anyway to hit 33. Sure, you'd gain benefits of having some better gear in the slots that were replaced, but I think all of that gear added up won't beat out my way using Chivalrous or Attila's. At least with Chivalrous you get more than just +1 STP.

I'll do the math later. Like I said, this is at a glance.

[Dart]

one thing that i'll need to know is this: is quietus a 1 hit ws like cata? If it is then you have a fairly serious problem. one hitters are notorious for fucking up our xhit builds if you go for a pure dmg ws set.

with a 502 delay scythe add all the gear you listed + tactical thats 20.8 tp per hit (19.9 per hit without tactical).

Boy i don't envy you. 513 delay on apoc makes this much easier.

what are you ws'ing in with quietus?

[Kagato]

Quietus is 3-hit. I also don't have it yet. I said I'm working towards finishing it. However it shares the same properties as Guillotine, so I'm just using my Guillo build for it when I get it.

[Dart]

well, with the gear you listed + tactical i get 20tp/swing (without carbonara)with a 513 delay scythe. if quietus is 3 hit then you should be able to use a pretty normal ws build and be fine.

[Jar]

Quietus is 3-hit. I also don't have it yet. I said I'm working towards finishing it. However it shares the same properties as Guillotine, so I'm just using my Guillo build for it when I get it.

OMG LOL stfu kagato Q is a SINGLE HIT that deals triple Damage.

you WILL NOT 5 hit it w/o tactical mantle.

and your one of the people that always is saying our weaponskills are bad you dont even know what our weaponskills are


btw
Single hit
fTP 3.0 40% STR 40% MND
100%tp
10% defense ignored
200% tp
30% defense ignored
300%tp
50% defense ignored

20.8x4=83.2
meaning you need to get 17.8 tp from weaponskill to 5 hit WITH a tactical mantle durring TP

with just rajas ring brutal and rose strap you only get 17.0tp from weaponskill unless you double/triple attack you would need another 6 STP in waponskill gear to 5 hit meaning you would need to even WS in tactical mantle or other gear accordingly.

[Dart]

OMG LOL stfu kagato Q is a SINGLE HIT that deals triple Damage.

you WILL NOT 5 hit it w/o tactical mantle.

and your one of the people that always is saying our weaponskills are bad you dont even know what our weaponskills are


btw
Single hit
fTP 3.0 40% STR 40% MND
100%tp
10% defense ignored
200% tp
30% defense ignored
300%tp
50% defense ignored

20.8x4=83.2
meaning you need to get 17.8 tp from weaponskill to 5 hit WITH a tactical mantle durring TP

with just rajas ring brutal and rose strap you only get 17.0tp from weaponskill unless you double/triple attack you would need another 6 STP in waponskill gear to 5 hit meaning you would need to even WS in tactical mantle or other gear accordingly.

thats my problem with catastrophe and why I have to use carbonara in my build. Its either that or use red curry bun and ws in some funky stuff.

[Dart]

btw, friend of mine has Redemption. He's well geared and all that knows the math. but quietus is so bad that 1 week after getting it he started on caladbolg lmao <_<

[Jar]

yeah i have to work around all wierd with Torcleaver with a STP atma to get the 6hit to work inside abyssea but its just so worth it <3

[Jar]

btw, friend of mine has Redemption. He's well geared and all that knows the math. but quietus is so bad that 1 week after getting it he started on caladbolg lmao <_<
Yeah i did the math on redemption before I started my caladbolg and well as you can see i picked Caladbolg lmao

<3 caladbolg

[Dart]

honestly i'm probably going to be lazy and just use scorpion queen inside to maintain 6 hit, and just 7 hit outside and not mess with it. My spellcast is too long as is.

[Jar]

yeah 7hit outside isnt to bad the low delay makes it about as fast as 6hiting a scythe

[vedder]

yea im with dart 7hit it outside and maybe 6hit it or hope for DA/TA procs inside ive looked at everything i think i could and im pretty sure 7hit is gonna give better results considering sacrifices to 6hit

perhaps the next version update will introduce gear that allows us to 6hit it with capped haste, who knows

[Kagato]

btw, friend of mine has Redemption. He's well geared and all that knows the math. but quietus is so bad that 1 week after getting it he started on caladbolg lmao <_<

That's a shame, but I think it might see an update much like other Weapon Skills.

Also, I misread the wiki entry as a triple-attack. It's actually triple-damage so that means it's a single-hit.

But you said you get it without carbonara. I'll probably just pick up a tactical mantle for outside abyssea so I can eat a red curry bun, but inside abyssea I'd rather just stay with Atheling and eat a carbonara since reaching caps is too easy inside of there. I'm just not in any real rush.

Ultimately the big kicker is whether or not Souleater will be a full-time ability or not. If it is, I don't care how much -ATK gear I'd have on in order to gain STP.

And besides, I'll certainly know what to do once I obtain the thing. Right now is just speculation. There's only one or two DRKs on my server with Redemption and they're japanese, so consulting them is...well, lol.

[Jar]

That's a shame, but I think it might see an update much like other Weapon Skills.

Also, I misread the wiki entry as a triple-attack. It's actually triple-damage so that means it's a single-hit.

But you said you get it without carbonara. I'll probably just pick up a tactical mantle for outside abyssea so I can eat a red curry bun, but inside abyssea I'd rather just stay with Atheling and eat a carbonara since reaching caps is too easy inside of there. I'm just not in any real rush.

Ultimately the big kicker is whether or not Souleater will be a full-time ability or not. If it is, I don't care how much -ATK gear I'd have on in order to gain STP.

And besides, I'll certainly know what to do once I obtain the thing. Right now is just speculation. There's only one or two DRKs on my server with Redemption and they're japanese, so consulting them is...well, lol.

Looking at this You have NEVER capped attack inside abyssea or even tried too. it is not at all easy to cap attack.

[Gradd]

On anything that matters your not hitting the attack cap even inside of abyssea, on higher Tier NMs even with last Resort I really notice the huge difference in lack of damage with torcleaver because obviously I am not hitting the attack cap.

999 does not = Capped attack, people knew this at 75. Attack actually goes higher than 999, its just that 999 is all that we can see. Ps2 Limitations!

After I 85 my Almace this week im going to actually build redemption just to have it, my scythes sitting at the chloris stage. Friend of mine has the Fake Empyrean/Quietus Scythe the WS really is not all that great :/

[Kagato]

Ah, well perhaps the Redemption itself will make up for it. I've noticed that a lot of people who say the scythe and WS suck are usually basing it off the WoE/Fake version.

Personally, I don't care that much for Quietus anyway. I'm more in it for the weapon itself. Insurgency is really the scythe Weapon Skill that I like, but wish was better. Since I misread that quietus is triple damage and not triple-attack, that opinion is even more solidified than ever. I wouldn't be surprised if I still use Guillotine with Redemption.

Regardless, there are options. One way or another, the amount of Store TP needed needs to be met. I'll just say "the hell with it" and get everything and just test combinations myself. Personal experience and trustworthy sources are leagues better than hearsay and speculation. So yeah, I'll take the time and get the mantle and I'll still get everything else. Worst case scenerio is I sell some items back on the AH. Oh noes. :|

Anyway, appreciate talking with you, Dart. I just don't want this to turn into a topic about Redemption builds so I wanna cut the conversation here.

[Dart]

we do tend to get sidetracked don't we? Totally jar's fault /jarsignal

[Gradd]

Liberator goooooooooooooooooooooo, I know Kirschy likes hers alot, in my opinion its the strongest scythe at the moment, hoping SE makes Mythics easier to obtain I would love to build one.

[Jar]

we do tend to get sidetracked don't we? Totally jar's fault /jarsignal

If kagato Stoped barfing stupid i wouldn't have to correct him lol

[Kagato]

Liberator goooooooooooooooooooooo, I know Kirschy likes hers alot, in my opinion its the strongest scythe at the moment, hoping SE makes Mythics easier to obtain I would love to build one.

Seriously? This is the first time I've heard anyone bring it up positively.

[Gradd]

Most people are foolish idiots when they talk about liberator and don't realize its full potential.

At 75 it parsed on par with Apoc(without capped haste gear), the Key to all Mythic weapons is being able to ride the 300% OAT effect, this is what makes Ryunohige the monstrous weapon that it is for DRG. Kirschy would use insurgency keep the 300% AM up then spam guillotine during its duration, then right before it wore making sure to have enough TP to renew the AM. Now you can cap haste with it which pretty much guarantees it is better than Apoc. The 90 Lib has a 15% boot to Insurgency as well, so you would be spamming that instead of guillotine during AM.

[Dart]

on paper it can keep up, but practical application has shown otherwise. I'm not saying its a terrible weapon by any means mind you.

[Kagato]

Thats what I'm understanding, Dart. However, let's see what it's 95 and 99 version brings to the table.

[vedder]

ive actually heard this too about liberator, not sure on which forum, was probably bg cus i rarely checked ffxiah before recently, but yea it was all about being able to throw the AM back up at 300tp just after it wears

[Madawc]

Catastrophe

Problem 1: No longer full benefit from the Haste effect as regular gear will reach the cap.
Problem 2: Damage too low, a tiny dagger vs a monster blade which should do the most dmg?
Problem 3: If user is at 100% HP before WS, the drained HP will have no effect.

Solution 1: Put Haste aftermath in its own category which can reach a new "90% cap". (Or place it in magic)
Solution 2: Amplify the damage compareable to polearm/gkt/gaxe.
Solution 3: Surplus HP drained to be added to next attack as additional damage (similar to how Souleater is added, other additional effects will also proc with it) or stack it with Drain2 for a higher max HP.

[Habiki]

Race plays a role in dmg of guillotine and insurgency so buffing one and not the other would only lead to no balance between respective races as far as dmg gos.

[Jar]

Race plays a role in dmg of guillotine and insurgency so buffing one and not the other would only lead to no balance between respective races as far as dmg gos.
i laughed pretty hard at this one

race means almost nothing bro

[Habiki]

When inside abyssea nothing matters can go naked and out dd any dark on warrior why are you guys all so against raising the potential of all the weaker weaponskills just because some are quested and some arent doesnt mean they all don't need attention. I guess noone skillchains anymore so why have more weaponskills that are capable of doing damage.
SE just fix redemption forget about everything else only people who put 3 days into building their weapon should get to do good damage according to most everyone.

[Urteil]

Apocalypse is amazing simply because of the disgusting low manning and soloing opportunities it brings to the table.

[Dart]

..................../sigh

[Madawc]

Apocalypse is amazing simply because of the disgusting low manning and soloing opportunities it brings to the table.

yea right... You're only gonna do DC-T and even then you got huge downtime and even may end up with depleted mp. Cata do not make solo better. A DRK takes 100-200 dmg so the 300-600 drains from WS will only sustain you for a short time. Solo means no buffs! It's prob better to go /SAM, save TP, put up dread spikes, drain2, hack it down as fast as possible with a high dmg WS and hope for the best.

[Cruentus]

yea right... You're only gonna do DC-T and even then you got huge downtime and even may end up with depleted mp. Cata do not make solo better. A DRK takes 100-200 dmg so the 300-600 drains from WS will only sustain you for a short time. Solo means no buffs! It's prob better to go /SAM, save TP, put up dread spikes, drain2, hack it down as fast as possible with a high dmg WS and hope for the best.

Actually, solo means you're probably DRK/RDM, so you have your own Cure III, Stoneskin, Phalanx, Aquaveil, Blink, and Enelement spells (except Enlight).

[Madawc]

guess what, I got all that. Still no go.

[Cabalabob]

what i want is a change to great sword skill shockwave. (i know its an old one but ive only just strted lvling great sword and i noticed this one in particular could be better)

first off they should change it from radial to cone, like a breath spell seeing as you only swing the great sword in front of you. second i've noticed that the sleep effect doesn't always land and the tp effect says it only effects the duration. ..so 300% would be full duration...if the sleep actually hits! so i think the sleep effect should be 100% on non-dark/sleep resistant mobs. finally i think it should be made ranged so that once you sleep the monster you dont just hit it and wake it right back up.

if they made these changes i think it could pick up more use when soloing if you get aggro seeing as dark knight doesn't get sleepga, say if you aggro 3 monsters you could shockwave them, kill one then sleep the second with the spell when it wakes back up and move onto the third one.