Give SMNs their birth right Weapon Skills and Staff rank!!!!

[Vangoh]

Hi, I don't know if there's a thread about this already and sorry if there is.

I have come across a very annoying fact. Summoners (mainly SMNs), and Black Mages do not receive all of the staff weapon skills and this is extremely unfair. Staff is the main weapon of SMN and BLM and yet they lack most staff weapons skills while WHM a job who's main weapon is a club (although they're very good with staff as well) gets them all which is OK if you ask me because is a mage but still not it's main weapon and yet WAR, MNK, and PLD get them too even though their main weapon have nothing to do with a staff.

It is just inconceivable how PLDs and MNKs have higher staff skill/rank than SMN, I'm sorry if I'm coming off a bit annoyed lol but seriously why? There might be some of you who think meleeing is not important at all but for a lot of us it is. Yes I could just sub WHM for the rest of the WSs but I since the lvl cap 85 came out RDM is more appealing than WHM sub and because of that I don't have access to all the staff WSs. Perhaps I've stated my point here, so I ask SE and the developers to PLEASE re-evaluate the weapon ranks some jobs have. You have talked a lot about balancing jobs and it doesn't get more unbalanced than this.

Hope to get a response, thank you.

[Malamasala]

How do I press "Like" one million times on this board?

Summoner's should have access to all staff WSes and have A rating in staff, as well as good melee gear. It is just someone who got confused when they designed the job and thought that MP = mage. (Tell that to Blue mages and give them only MND armors and see what they say about it)

[Kaych]

Was actually gonna start a thread on fixes like this. The Cataclysm was a unfair WS. All jobs got a new WS, but SMNs didnt. They have to sub a certan job to unluck this (among with other WSes like u said). I just have no idea why o.o

SE, why is it like this?

[Vangoh]

LOL and here I thought I was gonna get trolled and flamed but I guess I am right, I mean WE are right. We shouldn't depend on subs to do WSs. I got Cataclysm on WHM last night and I was like "OMG this is gonna rock on my smn (my main)" just to find out I don't get the WS...

[Fyreus]

No one can troll this...

The other thing i found odd was how summoners aren't a master of their own skill and why we have an outdated bp timer. Also, why is nearly everything usefull assigned to Garuda?? Fix my wolf's damage please ; ;

[Malamasala]

Except favors. Only ifrit got a good favor... which is ironic since he never got a good rage pact. It is like SE wants everything with the job to be a one trick thing. Ifrit only for DA aura, Garuda only for Predator claws. Shiva only for Heavenly Strike. Carbuncle only for pulling without links.

[Evilvivi]

Was actually gonna start a thread on fixes like this. The Cataclysm was a unfair WS. All jobs got a new WS, but SMNs didnt. They have to sub a certan job to unluck this (among with other WSes like u said). I just have no idea why o.o

SE, why is it like this?

BLM and SCH would like to have a word with you.


How do I press "Like" one million times on this board?

Summoner's should have access to all staff WSes and have A rating in staff, as well as good melee gear. It is just someone who got confused when they designed the job and thought that MP = mage. (Tell that to Blue mages and give them only MND armors and see what they say about it)

Summoner gets all the staff weaponskills that matter, unless you are trying to proc red in abyssea. As for gear, SMN gets a good bit of haste gear, and the WSs that matter have MND mods so the MND armor is actually a good thing, and Garland has the bonus of being affected by INT and MAB, which SMN also gets good gear for.


LOL and here I thought I was gonna get trolled and flamed but I guess I am right, I mean WE are right. We shouldn't depend on subs to do WSs. I got Cataclysm on WHM last night and I was like "OMG this is gonna rock on my smn (my main)" just to find out I don't get the WS...

I'd say Cataclysm was more of a miss for my BLM than my SMN.

No one can troll this...

The other thing i found odd was how summoners aren't a master of their own skill and why we have an outdated bp timer. Also, why is nearly everything usefull assigned to Garuda?? Fix my wolf's damage please ; ;

A- isnt a master, wut? BRD would like to have a word with you, they have a C Skill in their own skills. BP TImer outdated? I fail to see how, its kept the same cap, just like how Haste has capped its same cap. As for Garuda getting everything useful. Lets see, Hastega? for a wind avatar? sounds about right to me. Movement Speed+? also sounds like something a wind avatar should have and given that Garuda's only other BP Rage barring Merits, is claw, which is her starter, I'd say she deserves Pred Claw.


Except favors. Only ifrit got a good favor... which is ironic since he never got a good rage pact. It is like SE wants everything with the job to be a one trick thing. Ifrit only for DA aura, Garuda only for Predator claws. Shiva only for Heavenly Strike. Carbuncle only for pulling without links.

THere are no good favors because: 1. they nerf your avatar's stats. 2. your avatar doesnt benefit from its own favor 3. due to the previous reasons are only good if you want to keep your avatar out like your doing something for your pt and afk. Spinning Dive can give Pred Claw a run given it does more consistant dmg. Merit BPs are actually all the same strength given all the avatars have the same int/MAB, its just happens that in abyssea Beyond gives ice dmg+ AND MAB which makes Heavenly the more useful of the pacts. Also you can pull w/o links w/ ANY avatar, not just carbuncle. Carbuncle is only used due to low mp cost.

Now that that is over, I can say I do find it sad that SMN has a high staff skill but lower skilled jobs learn more WSs, but so does MNK when it comes to club skill when SAM learns more WSs. To me, SE gave SMN all the staff WSs that matter. Those being, Spirit Taker and Garland of Bliss.

[Karbuncle]

Brd is a bad example, They're unique. Their Singing Skill + Instrument you're using Skills are combined So technically they have a higher Skill than any job possible, since the two are combined. So, they really have an "S" Rank, Or A+++++ when you get down to it. XD

[Malamasala]

What Karbunkle said. Only people without knowledge of BRD thinks they have poor skill.


I'd say Cataclysm was more of a miss for my BLM than my SMN.

You'd get more out of it that way yes, but BLMs generally don't wait on a 45 second timer to do anything, during which point meleeing is a good idea. You also have hate issues with BOTH WSing and Nuking, while SMNs do not.


Garland has the bonus of being affected by INT and MAB, which SMN also gets good gear for.

The problem is that the base damage is terrible. I remember at 75 fighting DC crabs and doing 170 damage with WS gear swapping. At the same time I could do 190 Spirit Takers on them, and that is not effected by MAB. (Who knows though, maybe those pesky Crabs really are PLDs with MDB on top)

Summoner should really get a 6 hit magical WS that restored MP based on 1/6 of the damage. That would be the ultimate move for the job. Far better than any of the silly relics and mythic WSes.

[Evilvivi]

Brd is a bad example, They're unique. Their Singing Skill + Instrument you're using Skills are combined So technically they have a higher Skill than any job possible, since the two are combined. So, they really have an "S" Rank, Or A+++++ when you get down to it. XD

ok, then allow me to change that to RNG, whose specialty is shooting, but they have A- Archery and Marksmanship :P. Which is the same as SMNs summoning skill.

[Karbuncle]

ok, then allow me to change that to RNG, whose specialty is shooting, but they have A- Archery and Marksmanship :P. Which is the same as SMNs summoning skill.

Yah, Almost all Jobs have A- in something they should be the "Specialty" in.

NIN have A- katana and Ninjutsu
SMN have A- Summoning Magic
THF have A- Dagger (A+ Evasion/parry though)
BST have A- Axe (I think?)

Theres a few more i think, But yah.

[Fyreus]

A- isnt a master, wut? BRD would like to have a word with you, they have a C Skill in their own skills. BP TImer outdated? I fail to see how, its kept the same cap, just like how Haste has capped its same cap. As for Garuda getting everything useful. Lets see, Hastega? for a wind avatar? sounds about right to me. Movement Speed+? also sounds like something a wind avatar should have and given that Garuda's only other BP Rage barring Merits, is claw, which is her starter, I'd say she deserves Pred Claw.


I understand you are tro--baiting so i'll bite.

The bp timer has stayed the same which limits our attacks per min as blm/weapon skills and such are leaving us behind as damage AND support. Your rebuttal for garuda was weak. Poll which avatars we use most and see who sits dormant at the bottom of the list and askl why and the common anser will be "It doesn't offer much besides BP damage which garuda would be better at."


Comparing the BP timer to haste is like comparing bp:rubber bands to haste:Jessica Alba/Meghan Fox (which would you rather have?). Smn's main ability leaves them to wait to be productive in a group unless they turn their sub (if healing class) into their main function between summoning, activating, then releasing (10 of 60 secs) and if buffing a group then 30% of their summoning up time is trumped by their sub's active/standby time which is 66% of total active/standby time per min.

The only reason they could want to keep the timer is because of the amount of buffs most support can muster over a certain period of time so that other support jobs aren't overshadowed via outbuffing. Wwe keep a lot of stuff up atm but can't do over 7 buffs i think solely using wards but i stand corrected.

Keeping that in mind i suggest lowering the rage timer or spliting physical and magical bps to have 3 timers and give ramuh something nice so i just don't leave him in melee range all day (i LOVVE the ifrit ward bp/aura combo <3) which would keep me busy as a smn.

[Malamasala]

SMN have A- Summoning Magic

Which ironically is the third worst rating for a Summoner in all regards except Siphon and favors.

- Rage Pacts... must be ABOVE cap, meaning F skill is optimal.
- Ward pacts... must be ABOVE cap, meaning F skill is optimal.
- Spirit casting timer... must be ABOVE cap, meaning F skill is optimal.

There is interrupt rate also, but lets be honest. Taking 50 damage is enough to be interrupted with 450 skill.

Overall, before 2009, we had the third worst rating for our Summoning magic based on how well it functions. Comparable to if other jobs had like E rated skills. Now it is more like we have a C rating, since half our skills are good at A and half are terrible.

SE should revamp the skill system again, but the likelyhood they'll admit they got it wrong TWICE is none existent. Japanese people don't like to admit they are wrong because it is embarrassing.

[Vangoh]

Y'all missed the point though....SMN, BLM, SCH don't get their respective staff skills AND weapon skills! MNK, PLD, and WAR get it and they NEVER use them, why? Because they got stronger weapons to use and better weapon skill damage, am I crazy or that's just not right? shouldn't the mage based jobs get it instead of the melees? I mean seriously, that is just broken. Who says we only need Spirit Taker? Because we don't give good use of the rest of the WSs? Oh I'm sorry mister Troll I didn't realized we knew each others battle style and likes. Is unnecessary? Giving it to jobs who DON'T need it and DON'T use it IS unnecessary. Why put the WSs there if they're not gonna be used at all, might as well erase them and free some space up and add something actually useful or just delete it over all for the lolps2limitations users.

[Dallas]

Personally, I think our weapon rating is high enough. We don't want AOE WS because our pet can only defend against one attacker. What we DO need is a pet that generates more hate than our pathetic waepon rating and skills can generate with top-of-the-line staves.

As we currently sit, if we arm ourselves to the teeth, we die.

[Malamasala]

Yea, that is kind of hilarious. You'd think our pathetic DD abilities from skill and STR would allow the pet to outperform us, but they don't. Though I'm sure BST suffers from the same thing, except in their case they do better damage.

[Dallas]

BST has Snarl. Snarl can be subbed, but it doesn't work on avatars. I'm now considering an enmity build to get full use out of Hvergelmir.

[Karbuncle]

Yea, that is kind of hilarious. You'd think our pathetic DD abilities from skill and STR would allow the pet to outperform us, but they don't. Though I'm sure BST suffers from the same thing, except in their case they do better damage.

><I might be reading you wrong >___> but on most Abyssea-level mobs, a Master will outperform the pet in terms of BST. RR/GH/etc make for epic rampages. outside however, yah, Jugs win :P

[Vangoh]

Personally, I think our weapon rating is high enough. We don't want AOE WS because our pet can only defend against one attacker. What we DO need is a pet that generates more hate than our pathetic waepon rating and skills can generate with top-of-the-line staves.

As we currently sit, if we arm ourselves to the teeth, we die.

You said it yourself, we got pathetic skill rating hence the need for improvement and we pretty much control the enmity on our pets really. As a matter of fact no matter how many AOE WSs I do my avatars always manage to take hate from mobs around me one way or another with attacks and support buffs which all avatars have. No one is dumb enough to AOE at a crowd of higher level (or more dangerous) mobs, why would you if you know you're getting your butt whooped? Some of us actually know how to use these weapon skills and do have a good use of them. If people can't control their actions then is no one's fault but yours.

[Dallas]

As a matter of fact no matter how many AOE WSs I do my avatars always manage to take hate from mobs around me one way or another with attacks and support buffs which all avatars have.

Buffs generate no enmity on either the avatar or the summoner. The only reason your avatars can pull hate off you is because your attacks are weaker than the avatar. Get a better melee weapon and you'll no longer be safe. I crossed that line with my OA3 trial.

[Vangoh]

Buffs generate no enmity on either the avatar or the summoner. The only reason your avatars can pull hate off you is because your attacks are weaker than the avatar. Get a better melee weapon and you'll no longer be safe. I crossed that line with my OA3 trial.

Oh I know this, my smn is my main job and I presume of being very familiar with the job. I didn't meant for the avatars to gain hate through buffs I meant that they will assist you to keep you alive through buffs while they get hate from every hostile mob towards you, like Titan's stoneskin will give him time to get hate while you're being attacked, things like that.

And I don't think I will be using a "stronger" weapon simply because we rely on perpetuation staves, I strictly use the magian staves for smn. My goal IS NOT to out damage my avatar that would be silly, but to help with the damage input and survival of us both. Yes I will admit I mainly use Spirit Taker when I'm low on mp, but when the situation is that I have spare MP or damage needs to be done and fast I do resort to Retribution and I must say the damage is not that bad. It's like comparing a normal piece of gear to a +1, there isn't a big difference but at the end you can notice that it helps more than NQ gear.

And that is just 1 of the many reasons I have to get better fighting skills.

[Dallas]

And I don't think I will be using a "stronger" weapon simply because we rely on perpetuation staves, I strictly use the magian staves for smn.

300% TP Myrkr is 1k+ mp recovery. OA4 staff returns 300-800 mp through 100% TP Spirit Taker.

I don't wear any perp gear when I melee anymore.

[Malamasala]

I thought OA didn't trigger on WSes.

[Evilvivi]

It doesnt, unless the staff is broken. BUt spirit taker can double/triple attack if you have gear/atma for it.

[Vangoh]

Not saying there aren't alternative staves. But let's face it, SMN doesn't have the best acc in the game so we won't get to WS a lot on mobs with high eva aka any high lvl mob or whatever and we won't always be meleeing because some mobs are just too nasty to get close to. So perpetuation staves is the only way to go for me because regardless if I WS or not my perpetuation cost will be greatly reduced.

[Dallas]

Not saying there aren't alternative staves. But let's face it, SMN doesn't have the best acc in the game so we won't get to WS a lot on mobs with high eva aka any high lvl mob or whatever and we won't always be meleeing because some mobs are just too nasty to get close to. So perpetuation staves is the only way to go for me because regardless if I WS or not my perpetuation cost will be greatly reduced.

Where are you finding these high evasion/high level mobs? Now, it may help that I use RR Atma and have full staff and Dex merits, but I don't have trouble hitting anything normal. Spirit Taker can miss, true, and I've cursed numerous missed WS, but Myrkr even removed that problem.

Keep at it. If you like meleeing, you can be rewarded.


I thought OA didn't trigger on WSes.

It doesn't, but 4 attacks is 4x the TP. You still get that many more WS. 800 is from Brutal or 300% TP, which can happen when you don't *need* to WS.

[Teraniku]

Yah, Almost all Jobs have A- in something they should be the "Specialty" in.

NIN have A- katana and Ninjutsu
SMN have A- Summoning Magic
THF have A- Dagger (A+ Evasion/parry though)
BST have A- Axe (I think?)

Theres a few more i think, But yah.

PLD A+ in swrd and A+ in Shield