Why not get rid of Chocobo Circuit and the race area?

[radar]

These two zones really do next to nothing, outside of RoE objectives.

In a game with a limited number of zone options (database limitations), why not just drop these two areas and add two new ones? We have been told numerous times there are zone limitations in the development environment (this was why old Limbus was removed, and the new version put in its place)

We could have two large new zones, if these are removed.

Feretory also, could at least in theory be added to the 2nd areas of the mog garden?

[radar]

There are also two dedicated PVP areas barely anyone even ever uses.

Diorama Abdhaljs-Ghelsba
Abdhaljs Isle-Purgonorgo

[Alhanelem]

These two zones really do next to nothing, outside of RoE objectives.Because there are people out there who actually like doing certain things "for fun" and not just because it advances their character.



There are also two dedicated PVP areas barely anyone even ever uses.

Diorama Abdhaljs-Ghelsba
Abdhaljs Isle-Purgonorgo OVER MY DEAD BODY.

Entirely ignoring the fact that the PvP grounds have been instrumental in testing many game mechanics and deserve to exist just for that, again, there are people who enjoy doing things for fun, why should that be taken away from them?

Seriously, where's the dislike button?

Why do we need new areas at all? There's so much unutilized space in so many areas it's not even funny.

I'm generally vehemently against removing unpopular content. Somebody enjoys it, why ruin the game for those people? I quit League of Legends after playing for many years after they twice removed my preferred game modes (and also lied about their intent to keep in one case, after they found that ripping off someone else's idea was making them lots of money in China).

If you really want to talk about useless areas, what about that zone in Khamir Drifts that can't even be walked in, is purely used for cutscenes? They could do those cutscenes anywhere and they wasted a zone for that. That wouldn't even necessitate the removal of content. You don't see anything in that zone anyway. Just recreate the cutscenes using the drifts or even a different snowy area as the backdrop and no one will notice the difference.

[radar]

Barely anyone uses them, and they have limitations which is why they can't keep adding new zones.

I don't want to remove anything, but common sense dictates you remove if it means getting things that are more useful to more people.

[Alhanelem]

Barely anyone uses them, and they have limitations which is why they can't keep adding new zones.

I don't want to remove anything, but common sense dictates you remove if it means getting things that are more useful to more people. No, common sense dictates you fix the underlying problems that prevent you from doing what you want to do. I.e. upgrade the database, the data structures the game uses, recompile the game as a 64 bit binary (really needs to be done anyway) and use higher level variable types where necessary. Yes, it would require a lot of work, but so do new areas.

The number of people who enjoy a particular content is irrelevant. Nothing deserves to be removed just because you don't do it. These "database limitations" are arbitrary and the only reason they are a problem is SE's lack of interest in investment.

[radar]

No, common sense dictates you fix the underlying problems that prevent you from doing what you want to do. I.e. upgrade the database, the data structures the game uses, recompile the game as a 64 bit binary (really needs to be done anyway) and use higher level variable types where necessary. Yes, it would require a lot of work, but so do new areas.

They are not going to do a low level re-write, it's not going to happen and so they have to work with the limitations.

Read this:


For instance, Fujito reveals that the development team is currently constrained by a shortage of available IDs used to manage in-game areas, making the addition of a new world impossible through “conventional methods.” He says the team has been investigating ways to reorganize and free up resources since last year, and has already begun restructuring some of the game’s internal assets. If those efforts succeed, “some kind of project” could potentially move forward, he suggests.

Fujito also says that staffing remains another major challenge for the game. Although his team wants to work on new story-related content following The Voracious Resurgence, the staff capable of handling that kind of work are currently busy with other projects within Square Enix. Still, there are plans to potentially bring former FFXI team members back onto the project in the future, while engineers are also working on middleware improvements related to graphical resource management. According to Fujito, resolving those issues could eventually make it possible to create new cutscenes and other content again, but for now, he would like players to think of it as a preparatory phase where “we’re continuing to lay the groundwork for that sort of future development.”

https://www.famitsu.com/article/202605/75074

https://automaton-media.com/en/news/the-sharp-player-decline-we-expected-never-came-final-fantasy-11-director-talks-about-recent-surge-in-players-and-challenges-the-mmorpg-faces-due-to-server-limitation/

[Alhanelem]

They are not going to do a low level re-write, it's not going to happen and so they have to work with the limitations.Yeah, I know they're not going to, but that's still what common sense would dictate.

Other long running MMOs have done this. If SE wants to add major new content (which new zones would entail) they're going to need to upgrade the game's internals. Otherwise, there's no point in even adding new areas. And even without major upgrades, there are sitll ways it could be "hacked" in, like one entry in a nametable that points to a second one they can fill up with more things, that wouldn't necessarily require any existing system to be revamped. Nothing is impossible in game development, it's only a matter of what's in scope of what you're willing to do.

Just be aware if you're going to suggest the removal of things that matter to me, I'm going to defend them to the death (in the arena if necessary!)

Doing so would likely lead to me quitting the game, even though it's not a thing I do every day.

[radar]

Players that have neat ideas how to get around the limited ID situation where they don't have enough database entries to add new zones should suggest things, remember you're not suggesting things to a mega company with thousands of employees but you're suggesting things to a handful of developers that are still assigned to XI. Most of SE work on other games.

The only reason we got SoA was cause a chance meeting between two developers brainstorming in a hallway lead to a suggestion that allowed them to add a ton of a new zones.



Increasing the amount of area numbers allowed the world to expand

Now I'd like to ask you about Seekers of Adoulin. There was DLC available at the time in the form of the Abyssea series, so I imagine even the players felt like there wouldn't be the usual expansion disc levels of new content, but I think everyone was surprised when Seekers of Adoulin was announced out of nowhere at Vana★Fest 2012. What was the process behind the development of the new expansion disc?
Ito

I was actually working as the director for the updates at the time, and the general feeling on the team was that the Abyssea series would be the last large-scale area added to the game. On top of which, we had already exhausted the numbers that were used to register areas on the map. The limit for the area numbers was 255, which was a number that everybody felt would be more than enough when FFXI was first designed. However, we ended up reaching that limit approximately ten years into the game's lifespan. So even if we wanted to add new areas, there was no available area numbers for them. As a result, we figured that we'd just have to continue on with the usual version updates.

So your hands were pretty much tied by the game's specs.
Ito

I knew it was impossible, but by chance, I happened to be talking to a server programmer by the name of Shinichi Tanaka, and I asked him if there was truly no way to increase the area number count. He replied that we might be able to fake it by adding a value to the area number and then placing it in a separate container with the use of a programming flag that would tell the game whether to add the value or not. Using that method, we could get up to 512 maps.

So you instantly doubled the possible map count. (laughs)
Ito

I felt that it was something we had to do, so I immediately went to speak with Mr. Tanaka* and request that we get the maps team together.* Hiromichi Tanaka, FFXI's first producer.

You didn't waste any time.
Ito

No, not at all. We borrowed people from the FFXIV maps team and named a leader for the group, but we still didn't have enough people, so we turned to Matrix* for additional assistance. From there, we started working on the map for Seekers of Adoulin behind the scenes while development on the version updates proceeded as usual.* Matrix Corporation. They worked on the additional scenarios: "A Crystalline Prophecy," "A Moogle Kupo d'Etat," and "A Shantotto Ascension," as well as assisted with the development of Seekers of Adoulin.

[Alhanelem]

if that's accurate, then we went from a 256 zone limit to a 512 zone limit. SoA (and subsequent contents) didn't add that many zones so how are we at the the limit?

And a limit of 256 implies an 8 bit value for the zone index, so who's going to tell us why they can't simply make it a 16 bit value (max 65535) instead? When you have memory limitations (i.e. ps2 era) it makes sense to keep values small if you don't need them to be bigger but we're not supposed to have that limitation anymore.

[radar]

https://we-are-vanadiel.finalfantasyxi.com/post/?id=764&lang=en


It's difficult to know exactly what they mean. It's possible they mean the actual visual maps and not the actual zones? Cause many zones have multiple maps, there are probably way over 500 visual maps and we have all noticed they have not been adding maps to some zones.

[nixRidge]

Alas, even if they're not popular with players, I think it would be so sad to remove them. It's like removing a piece of history from the game, even if they're preserved in some way outside of it.
Sorry, I'm on the "they need to stay" side of the fence too. Even if it'd free up slots for new zones :) I think they can find workarounds for it somehow. Nothing is impossible!

[Alhanelem]

If they found a workaround once they can come up with another one again. The larger issue is the team not being able to get the staff or resources it wants/needs from SE to do the job.

[radar]

Adding new zones, new expansions would pay for itself, bring lots of players back and make money so it seems a valid thing to bring someone from XIV over to work on I would have thought.

Whatever the underlying cause is, it can be fixed.

It's like with wardrobes, once the argument was made it was profitable the higher ups agreed to implement it.

If it's maps there are ways around this, even if it's resorting to launching an external program to show it as when you hit config > gamepad.

[Catmato]

Delete Windurst. That would free up 5 zone IDs.

[nixRidge]

*logs in*


"Dude, where's my house?"

[Voidstorm]

Just delete the extra mog house zones for rabao, kazham, norg, etc that aren't even used.

[nixRidge]

I didn't even know they had those!

[Alhanelem]

I'm not sure that's actually a thing. At least, if there's a name in the area list, there certainly isn't an actual zone in the data files for those. If the names exist it may be for some technical reason- otherwise they probably would have done it the last time they added areas.

[radar]

Something I find strange with this game, is that some areas have massive 2d maps you can look at and it's the whole zone (Attowha Chasm is a good example, where there are effectively 2 large separate parts of the map) and yet others like Inner Horutoto Ruins have 4 maps for one zone. Why is this? Was it because they wanted the other areas to be secret? It's so wasteful when they could have just put the other areas on different parts of the same map.

[Alhanelem]

Something I find strange with this game, is that some areas have massive 2d maps you can look at and it's the whole zone (Attowha Chasm is a good example, where there are effectively 2 large separate parts of the map) and yet others like Inner Horutoto Ruins have 4 maps for one zone. Why is this? Was it because they wanted the other areas to be secret? It's so wasteful when they could have just put the other areas on different parts of the same map.

It depends on the area. In many cases its because of Z axis creating overlap. The game exists in 3D space, things can be above or under other things, and that would make maps harder to read. Further, it would complicate things like wide scan, which wouldn't be able to locate targets correctly if the maps were combined.

There are also areas where the isolated map sections are deliberate to make the area feel more maze like / claustrophobic for effect.

There are also areas that have maps in the data files but in-game they are not used and no map is available.

[radar]

Delkfutt's Tower is the worst, it has 13 maps for one zone. What a waste of limited IDs.

[Alhanelem]

Delkfutt's Tower is the worst, it has 13 maps for one zone. What a waste of limited IDs.
Delkfutt is 3 zones (4 if you include the battlefield). Not 13. Multiple maps in one zone aren't using up zone IDs.

Only unique areas (seperated by a loading screen) need unique zone IDs. When you go up or down a floor and the map changes, that isn't a new zone ID. that only changes when you cross from lower to middle to upper delkfutt's tower.

[Voidstorm]

I find Ordelle's Caves to be much worse to navigate.
Delkfutt's Tower is at least just find stairs that lead up, repeat.

[Dragoy]

The Chocobo Circuit is pretty much the only way to train one's chocobo, and I sometimes use the area daily for that purpose.

There are also a bunch of story cutscenes there (successfully complete all the personal races in each three racing team).

I'd actually lilke them to spend some time on improving things related to said area, but I admit it is definitely not very high on my list.

Well, one of them would be just re-ordering the selections for free runs, which is some of the most annoying menu-doings I know in the game (at least they don't make us suff^Wendu^Wenjoy the cutscene every time).

[radar]

I still cannot understand why Rhapsodies was a free expansion, and why VR didn't add 1-2 new zones and was also a paid expansion.

Maybe it's some kind of licensing or other issue, as much as I like free story content the chances of getting more is greatly diminished if there is no financial incentive for SE to fund it.

[Beastorizer]

Iirc, they are actively seeking Server Replacement & Preparing for the capacity to create new areas. So, those zones could stay.

Imo, XI needs a remake for the infrastructure overhaul not so much having a modern visual take on XI.

[Alhanelem]

They've already replaced their server hardware (not really related to the issue at hand) not long ago, but I've seen no evidence they're planning any sort of large scale expansion to the game which would include new areas.

[radar]

The hardware is easy, the games problems are in the spaghetti code and the unwillingness to assign people to work on that to secure the games future. It just needs a proper engineer assigned to work on the game so they can fix the foundational issues, and not just borrow one from XIV now and then.

[Alhanelem]

The hardware is easy, the games problems are in the spaghetti codeWell I'd argue it's less the internal design of the game and more the lack of people left at SE with the expertise to work on it. But then again, I guess those two things go hand in hand, as in the lack of people capable of understanding it and doing the work makes the design of the codebase a larger issue.

[radar]

The problem with this game is that it was made at a time when the industry standards were different (plus they never thought it was going to last more than 4-5 years), if a coder working on the game could find an ingenious way to make something work he just did it and never wrote it down. He didn't even remember that he did it or or how it worked years later, so it's not like you can just ask them.

In effect there is a ton of things in the game that just work and are interconnected in random silly ways, so if they change some foundational aspect of the game someones hat explodes in upper jeuno and nobody knows why.

That's why they are so afraid to change anything big (for instance the 56k connection cap), if they wanted to do that they would have to assign a coder to the game and have him just reverse engineer the code for a year before doing anything.

[Teraniku]

Couldn't they do a present version of Fort Karugo-Narugo, Grauberg and Vunkerl Inlet within the confines of the current code base? (Seeing how many copies we have of Southern San D'Oria etc.) Granted I'd want something interesting to do there if it's possible to add them.

[Catmato]

They still have different zone IDs.

[radar]

I didn't think about it till now, but they recently added a new zone.

The new Dynamis D open area is a new zone, with its own unique ID and it gets around the problem of zone wasting by rotating the 5 zones based on time.

It has no map, which again implies the problem is less the zones and more the map / positioning system that is needed to go along with the zones.

I think most players would be happy with a simple map (just show a picture of a map), with no positioning <pos> or overlay arrows if that was the only way it could be done. OR at least doing that with zones where position does not matter, such as leafilia for example (old dynamis (75 area) also has maps and position information, which it does not need and can be freed up if needbe) Sealions den has a map nobody uses too.

[Alhanelem]

The presence of a map isn't relevant. Areas with no map still need a zone ID, and areas with multiple maps don't use multiple zone IDs.