Job Trait: Auto-Refresh? [Archive] - FINAL FANTASY XI Forum

Eeek

03-09-2011, 01:12 AM

Abyssea indirectly addressed a major problem for BLM: MP recovery. BLM spells use an ungodly amount of MP. In Abyssea, Atmas (specifically Minikin Monstrosity, since I tend not to use any other Refresh Atmas) breathe new life into BLM and alleviate some of the hassle of MP management.

Before Abyssea, playing BLM involved an excessive need to rest and to manage MP. BLM has a wide array of powerful nukes, but outside of Abyssea, I regularly find myself choosing not to use BLM's job-defining spells in favor of conserving MP for Sleeps and Stuns. A resting BLM cannot effectively Stun anything!

Mana Wall and Enmity Douse were both fantastic additions to BLM, but I hope to see more adjustments. Like SMN and PLD, I hope that BLM will someday have an Auto-Refresh Job Trait. It doesn't need to be as powerful as Minikin Monstrosity's Refresh effect, but a natural Auto-Refresh Job Trait around 3 MP/tick or higher (at the level cap) would be a tremendous boon to BLM.

The Refresh spell and Refresh gear can only do so much. An Auto-Refresh Job Trait would be a simple, effective, and greatly appreciated adjustment to BLM. Abyssea Atmas finally allowed BLMs to actually play BLM, and I for one would like to continue playing BLM (instead of playing Resting Mage/Sleeping Mage/Stunning Mage) outside of Abyssea.

Teakwood

03-09-2011, 01:37 AM

On the one hand, I agree that Black Mages have severe MP efficiency issues. Even considering the MP options opened up to Black Mages by the availability of Convert and Refresh from /RDM, or Dark Arts, Sublimation, and /SCH stratagems, the disconnect between BLM play in Abyssea and BLM play outside of Abyssea (especially when fighting mobs on which Aspir and Aspir II are ineffective) is pretty huge. Even with latent Refresh from my earring and body pieces, I find myself running out of MP fairly consistently.

That said, BLM's primary role in many outside-Abyssea fights is not to do damage, but rather, to do "crowd control" activities and TP move / damaging spell mitigation with Stun. Some people like this, some people don't, but I'm not sure that this is actually pinned to MP issues - a casting BLM can't sleep or stun effectively, either. Black Mage's damage-effectiveness as compared to the heavy melee DDs outside of Abyssea is contingent on timing and luck (magic burst, spikes of enmity, spell resistance), although this is less the case now with the cap at 90 rather than 75.

Personally, I'd be inclined to suggest a FFXIV option here, although I'm not sure how feasible it would be - change Aspir and Aspir II such that they return MP even from monsters which do not have MP to drain. I've noticed in play that playing BLM against Aspir-able mobs (with Aspir II in the picture) is a completely different ballgame than playing it against things with no MP, and the ability to siphon MP from any monster was something I greatly enjoyed about XIV's MP mechanics.

GERM

03-09-2011, 01:56 AM

It doesn't need to be as powerful as Minikin Monstrosity's Refresh effect, but a natural Auto-Refresh Job Trait around 3 MP/tick or higher (at the level cap) would be a tremendous boon to BLM.

this would be equivalent to Refresh 1 and I can't see it being an idea that SqEnix will be thinking about especially with the ability for Refresh from subjobs. Even a 1mp per tick would be nice to see but every mage job is demanding that but the reason pld and SMN have it is due to their inability to rest while fighting. Smn cant rest with an avitar out or have to switch elemental for siphon if possible and PLD is the first person (in exp. parties) is the last one to that gets the option to rest and always the first one up to voke the mob. now with that said yes BLM can be used as an effective crowd control but there are much better jobs that can do this like RDM/BLM or BRD. Maybe a 2nd stun could be helpful to eliminate some of the trying to rest and recast because thats just not very nice to do.
Some of the casting burden was removed when they improved the casting time on elemental spells which does make things nice but MP consumption is a problem. If you compare a BLM to a DD such as a SAM you can get more damage from spells in the course of a battle but the time it takes to cast those spells gimps the ability to do that damage. where a SAM can meditate every 3 minutes and sekkinoni every 5 (natural) and can deal out a lot of damage shortly and then between fights the timers tick down.
Like WHM AF3 they have the ability to gain MP back based on cures, I would like to see this for BLM to gain back MP based on MP damage dealt Even at 5% of this an AMII spell can give you back 50% of what you just spent and considering the recast time it isn't that terrible of an idea. Now you have spells like your ja spells and me having an elvaan I can cast 3 of these spells and be out of MP and having even 5 % of that back would allow me to cast at least 2 more.. Now im not saying this needs or should be the exact mechanincs in it but thats what the developers can figure out but it would be a nice idea and something worth looking into because a blm on their knees resting is no better then a a melee without TP

rog

03-09-2011, 03:29 AM

Like WHM AF3 they have the ability to gain MP back based on cures, I would like to see this for BLM to gain back MP based on MP damage dealt Even at 5% of this an AMII spell can give you back 50% of what you just spent and considering the recast time it isn't that terrible of an idea. Now you have spells like your ja spells and me having an elvaan I can cast 3 of these spells and be out of MP and having even 5 % of that back would allow me to cast at least 2 more.. Now im not saying this needs or should be the exact mechanincs in it but thats what the developers can figure out but it would be a nice idea and something worth looking into because a blm on their knees resting is no better then a a melee without TP Assuming it doesn't stack with aoe nukes, allowing you to nuke infinitely, that would probably be an excellent, and fair fix for blm, i think.

Jacode

03-09-2011, 03:48 AM

They tried to fix Blm by giving it the MP Conserve Trait and in theory it works. However, because of the low proc rate, it just isn't practical. Maybe if they changed MP Conserve to something that always procs but only conserving about 20% of the MP used and then have the upgrades of the traits increasing to a maximum of 50% MP conserved and this way blm can have it's own unique trait set.

Darkwizardzin

03-09-2011, 03:52 AM

Personaly I don't like the idea of giving blm more mp tools... we have already gotten so many since the level cap increase first started. If we get too much mp support then it will lessen the difficulty of playing the job.. and I don't want that.

If anything they should increase the conserve mp trait for blm (but not by too much) anything else would be overkill.

rog

03-09-2011, 04:05 AM

Personaly I don't like the idea of giving blm more mp tools... we have already gotten so many since the level cap increase first started. If we get too much mp support then it will lessen the difficulty of playing the job.. and I don't want that.
We've got a lot, and yet it's still not enough to keep up with melee dds. A decent whm with some clubs can out damage a blm. It's nice that blm is no longer the worst dd in the game, but i think we could still get a little more.

Kimiko

03-09-2011, 06:10 AM

Personally, I think BLM is fine as is. Considering we have access to two of the most potent MP tools around in Aspir & Aspir II, along with Conserve MP, and Refresh/Convert from Red Mage subjob, do we honestly NEED anything else?

Slib

03-09-2011, 06:39 AM

I have had an issue with Black Mage MP even as a Taru since the level cap increase. I feel that even with convert and conserve MP, that the issues I have are related more to the new MP costs of our new tier of nukes, Tier 5.

Ever since the release of the new tier nukes, our MP pool hasn't gone up much at all to compensate the new MP costs for the tier 5 nukes and also the damage output of the tier 5 Nukes aren't worth it if you are outside of abyssea because I found the tier 4 nukes to be more efficient for Damage per MP cost, but in Abyssea I have no problem casting the Tier 5 nukes because I have almost a double sized MP pool AND high mp refresh. A higher MP pool allows convert to be more efficient and allows a higher chance at getting a conserve MP to proc without running out of MP in 3 blizzard 5's.

So all that being said, if you ask me BLM need something more than just a simple auto refresh. I think they should take a look at the MP costs of each nuke and lower tier 5 only or lower all nukes by a total %, to keep them scaling the same.

Flyinghippress

03-09-2011, 08:31 AM

I've played the job since USA launch and it's always been my main but I think currently I have less of an MP problem than I did in the past.

With the increased Elemental Magic skill due to higher levels and gear with more readily available INT our DoT spells (Burn et al) are actually a much more viable source of damage than they were before. With 150 INT each spell does -5 hp/tick. That's -15 hp/tick. It helps a lot on NM's - even in Abyssea when low-manning. As far as I know there isn't a discovered higher tier of damage for more than 150 INT but I would guess there is, or will be. Stack this with Poison II's -10 (also lands more readily now) and Bio II's -8 and you have a good DoT of -33hp. I know it doesn't seem like much but it's cheap MP damage. -13INT on the monster can increase your nukes considerably as well. In the time it takes to get your Blizzard V off, the DoT's have done around 100 damage and will increase your nuke by about 100 damage as well, sometimes more depending on monster (if you use the burn stack).

I generally run out of MP just in time for a new convert. Sometimes I don't even get to do that if I have a WHM in the party.

I don't think the answer to "fixing" the MP issue some of you are experiencing is to give more MP or native Refresh but rather looking to the older spells we don't use so much instead of focusing only on the new goodies SE gives us.

Delvante

03-09-2011, 09:43 AM

I would be inclined to agree with Flyinghippress myself. Yes, mp cost/use can be a bit frustrating at times but BLM didn't just receive nukes. They also received their own DoT's (which as Flying touched on) are much more potent now that level cap has gone up. Considering level cap is going to go up more, so will the dmg on these enfeebs. I love what BLM can do in Abyssea and I still love the fact that BLM isn't as awesome outside it. This allows for learning different ways to control your job.

For those of you who have at least played since 2004 like I have I think you'd agree with me, whether reluctantly or not, when I say BLM itself has come a long long way! All jobs really have and the mechanics of the game have changed drastically. Personally I'm pretty happy with BLM and have always enjoyed the ability to separate myself from the crappy BLM's because I know how to efficiently utilize spells at the right times and deliver good magical blows where necessary without crapping myself out of mp. BLM has always been a job in my mind where you could show how good you were by being able to properly manage your mp and rest time. Let's keep it that way instead of just letting any noob run around the game and throw nukes around.

Ryaan

03-09-2011, 01:20 PM

I would have to agree with Delvante and Flying. BLM is good just as it is. I have from experiance seen to many players get to use to playing the job only in Abyssea cause that is the only place they have ever played it that they just don't know or understand how to play it to conserve MP and still put out the numbers outside. Its sad that the days of leveling off Mob pets kind of died out, cause it really gave you an idea of what you needed to be doing. With to many people taking the job up in a day or two it really just lets you know who knows how to play the job and who doesn't. A good BLM can get the timing down on when to nuke when to rest and when to use job abilites to rarely ever be out of at least enough MP to get a few sleeps or stuns off. Also Dmg wise as is I still think we can put out the numbers to rival most DDs. We just also need to keep in mind the hate they bring. So I personally am glad the cost and recast are what they are makes it easier to manage and keep track of how much hate I accumulate allowing me to save Emnity Douse for the "panic button" moments.

tinydog

03-09-2011, 05:07 PM

as a blm longer than you ever been, i can tell u right now auto refresh is not necessary. the whole point is to nuke the mob with w/e resistance is weakest. when you are done nuking u rest and regain mp. then its back at it. since blms have high hate, even with ability, u should rest ur mp to lower ur hate. then nuke again. you should know this if you nuked faffy or niddy through out the years, even though u probably never did. just deal with it and know your roll and shut your mouth. LOL.

rog

03-09-2011, 05:35 PM

Yeah....except if you're resting, then you're not nuking. If you're not nuking, then you're not doing damage.

Darkwizardzin

03-09-2011, 11:47 PM

Every job has a place it fails at.. this is one of blms. Besides the black mage job isn't all about nuking. We have to stun, hold, even sometimes enfeeble monsters at times when there isn't a red mage around.

Also remember you can always offset the mp problem with gil. (mana items like ether)

Alkimi

03-12-2011, 06:40 AM

BLM can get 7/tick auto-refresh just from gear if they want to:

Owleyes (Though a lot of people hate wearing this)
Wivre Hairpin
Goetia +2 body (2/tick)
Moonshade Earring
Serpentes Set
Stearc Subligar

Certainly a lot better than the 1/tick we could get before Abyssea came out, but yeah you can still burn through all your MP (especially outside abyssea) in no time at all.

Odintius

03-15-2011, 01:26 AM

Should be a new stance were depending on the day you can call out a elemental which only protect's you like /cover. Once out it give you certain stat's. I know smn be piss but give them the one's ive seen in abyssea :P

-Proc MP Conserve Trait giving you guarantee percentage of lower cost of spell. Further reduction if align with spell of element of that day.
-Augment's Aspir/Aspir II making monster HP as a reliable draing pool.
-Enhances Refresh Effect.
Just an opinion other hidden effect be great but sure some wont agree lol.

Imole

03-15-2011, 12:36 PM

You know if they made it posible for BLM to actually mele without haveing HUGE amounts of acc gear Spirit taker would be a very viable option for BLM in a party setup. The trial staffs have very respectable damage on them making them decent for spirit taker damge. On the other side another option for suporting this idea is to sub DRK. I know it sounds wierd but say you got your ice staff on and cast ice magic DRK sub gives you TP propotionate to a percentage of the MP cost. On top of that /drk gets absorb TP and BLM does have a very high dark magic skill making it a worthwhile option. Not saying its the best option just saying it is an option people overlook.

Mojo

03-15-2011, 12:45 PM

BLM/RDM can get 10 mp/tick Refresh outside of Abyssea, and 20 mp/tick (more if you're using the wrong atma) in Abyssea. Couple that with Convert, Aspir I, and Aspir II and you've got a massive amount of MP recovery. I've never really had any problems, to be honest.

Miiyo

03-16-2011, 04:03 AM

Invasion

03-16-2011, 11:00 AM

kaht

03-17-2011, 12:02 AM

Flyinghippress

03-17-2011, 02:27 AM

Monkeynutz

03-17-2011, 03:14 PM

BLM really only has major mp issues outside of Abyssea if you play as though you are in Abyssea. I can certainly accept that people don't have all or even half of the items listed for auto-refresh, but there's no excuse to not work toward getting them. None of the pieces require that much work to obtain (though some may require a fair bit of time and luck). Even with overly expensive nukes (which is perhaps something SE should look into as T5 nukes break the mp efficiency trend that was established with 1-4) 10/tic refresh outside of Abyssea would have been completely unheard of a year ago, and I can distinctly remember how amazed I was to get 5/tic refresh in Abyssea from my first atma (Full Moon, or atma of the Heavens at the time).

Unless you're soloing/ manaburning when can you even cast enough spells to run through that much refresh and not grab hate from the tank? Usually on anything more difficult to kill than an exp mob I have to watch for things to stun and be careful about overnuking while the timer is burning down for the sake of enmity, not mp.

Glamdring

03-18-2011, 06:21 AM

oh please dear god no blm auto-refresh! I have enough problems with BLM, RNG, DRK and SAM that have no idea of the entire concept of hate control. Having to rest between casts is what made your better blms realize that while yes, you can do 3k damage with this cast if you aren't going to finish it off you are asking for a beating and maybe a lower-tier nuke would work better, especially since the tank has only done 126 points of damage so far. Just as with people who AFK, my 90 thf will SATA a hate-happy DD, since obviously you WANT the hate.

Seriously, for major DD (which blm certainly is) knowing when to go all in is just as important as knowing what will happen if you do if you want the party to function smoothly. Good long-time DDs know this, but there are too many people coming up too fast who just haven't learned that fine line of hate threshold to walk yet. Giving them the tools to screw up even more than they already do is NOT a good idea. Between conserve MP and MP recovery gear/food/meds and +hMP gear a decent blm should be fine.

As to not having the MP to keep up outside Abyssea noone else has the juice either. Abyssea has led to sloppy play in all areas for all jobs, expecting your Atma/AF3 to save your butt. Seriously, my Dynamis LS which is all in the 90 range wipes just as often in Dynamis now as we did at 75! Sure we can get the XP back easy, but why are we losing it in the 1st place?! Because people THINK they are all invincible now, and they're not. No target control, sloppy gigantic pulls that sleepers can't target that size, people all trying to "solo" stuff (apparently thinking the healers are there for thier exclusive use), it's just stupid! You can't get the healers to let the people who are playing so sloppy deal with the consequences of it either! This same stuff happens everywhere now!

No, SE needs to leave job weaknesses as they are to remind us of our own mortality. Besides, how much fun can you have in a game if you can never lose?

Neisan_Quetz

03-18-2011, 07:01 AM

Idiots will always be idiots, the issue isn't that people will overnuke because of autorefresh (Idiots do that anyway) but Blm has more refresh in gear and can /Rdm for Refresh spell and convert, they don't really need autorefresh trait as badly anymore.

Your dynamis group sounds like they would have wiped at 75 anyway.

Glamdring

03-18-2011, 07:34 AM

no, at 75 we actually paid attention to things and had discipline, some players don't feel the need for it now and it gets the rest of us killed. Case in point, it's been weeks since I've seen anyone ask who is the targeter, for mages or melee.

and as to the autorefresh and my other comments, it is your WEAKNESSES that make you learn, not your strengths. People learn best from mistakes. As an example, in my early days on thief Perfect Dodge was on one of my macros. After popping it one to many times when it was irrelevant and not having it when I needed to save my party it was removed from my regular macro list, and it now sits in solitary splendor in a macro set as Alt 1, with Ctrl-0 being the only other macro, my sac-pull macro.

Neisan_Quetz

03-18-2011, 07:53 AM

In which case you have lack of attentiveness of your shellmates to blame, not Abyssea/Job Traits. Realizing you're not in abyssea takes all of 5 seconds and adjusting according accordingly takes maybe 5 minutes max, there's no one to blame but yourselves for believing you can do something you can't do.

Gakaroth

03-23-2011, 06:39 AM

Daniel_Hatcher

03-23-2011, 07:48 AM

In my opinion, as BLM has the 2nd largest MP pool in game, and lacks refresh without the right sub, it should have access to auto-refresh 1, which is 1mp/tic. The largest mp pool (SMN) has gained access to auto refresh 2, and WHM should also be given auto-refresh 1 in my opinion to balance it all out since our mp pools and spell costs are growing so much so fast

As I said in the WHM thread. SMN's can't /heal thus need auto-refresh WHM and BLM do not need it, not now, not EVER.

Another case of EVERYONE wanting EVERYTHING and not having any negatives.

Gakaroth

03-24-2011, 03:08 PM

As I said in the WHM thread. SMN's can't /heal thus need auto-refresh WHM and BLM do not need it, not now, not EVER.

Another case of EVERYONE wanting EVERYTHING and not having any negatives.

SMNs CAN /heal, and also have the new favors to boost mp regain while having avatars out, personally i get 4mp/tic with an avatar out. Before quoting me, please understand I am WHM SMN BLM RDM BLU BRD 90. I solo'd my BLM to 75 on pets, I solo'd my SMN to 75 on normal mobs, etc. I had them all leveled long before level sync or abyssea. But the fact remains, MP pools are growing, BLMs end up tanking alot of the time, not all mobs are aspirable, and the ever growing cost of spells is crippling. Yes it doesn't make much of a difference, a mere 20mp/min, but while /heal it boosts the mp gained by that slight ammount over that minuite. Enemity douse is once every 10 mins before you suggest using that so you can /heal.

Daniel_Hatcher

03-24-2011, 09:29 PM

SMNs CAN /heal, and also have the new favors to boost mp regain while having avatars out, personally i get 4mp/tic with an avatar out. Before quoting me, please understand I am WHM SMN BLM RDM BLU BRD 90. I solo'd my BLM to 75 on pets, I solo'd my SMN to 75 on normal mobs, etc. I had them all leveled long before level sync or abyssea. But the fact remains, MP pools are growing, BLMs end up tanking alot of the time, not all mobs are aspirable, and the ever growing cost of spells is crippling. Yes it doesn't make much of a difference, a mere 20mp/min, but while /heal it boosts the mp gained by that slight ammount over that minuite. Enemity douse is once every 10 mins before you suggest using that so you can /heal.

SMN's can /heal with a SMN out?

Meyi

03-26-2011, 03:35 AM

Emp Body +2: +2 refresh
Serpentes gloves+boots: +1 refresh
Augmented hairpin: +1 refresh
Augmented subligar: +1 refresh
wotg earring: +1 refresh
owleyes: +1 refresh
aspir
aspir II
refresh spell: +3 refresh
convert
sublimation (if you do the /sch route)

A year ago I would have agreed with you, but these days if you're having MP issues on BLM, you're doing it wrong.

I don't have any of those armor items. :/ It takes forever for my LS to get +2 items.
I'll have to wiki the Serpentes gloves and boots, never been very lucky with augmented hairpins or subligars, and I'll have to painstakingly do WoTG all over again. X3 Never heard of Owleyes, either.

I'd be nice to have a constant refresh (aside from the spell) while nuking. Pretty sure nuking in that set would be incredibly stupid.

Daniel_Hatcher

03-26-2011, 06:00 AM

I don't have any of those armor items. :/ It takes forever for my LS to get +2 items.
I'll have to wiki the Serpentes gloves and boots, never been very lucky with augmented hairpins or subligars, and I'll have to painstakingly do WoTG all over again. X3 Never heard of Owleyes, either.

I'd be nice to have a constant refresh (aside from the spell) while nuking. Pretty sure nuking in that set would be incredibly stupid.

Casting time is low enough with BLM you can take that gear off for 2-3 seconds to nuke, then re-equip it.

Monkeynutz

03-27-2011, 04:07 AM

Only the +2 body is a nuking piece (though the WotG earring can be as well). It's obviously just an idle set.

On another note, those refresh hairpins are proving very, very elusive. I have some very nice dark rings, every KI you can get from Konschat, every scroll, and if I cared to check I probably have every temp item that can pop up in a chest.

Gippo

03-28-2011, 01:21 PM

BLM's wont ever get refresh as a native trait.

Learn to play your job the right way, and your mp pool will take care of itself.

The playerbase has gotten very sloppy of late in abyssea. It's only when people are participating in content outside of abyssea that they realize how the game once was.

There's a reason our spells cost upwards of 250MP. You can either use sublimation from /sch or refresh 1 from /rdm, and with aspir/aspirII when it applies, you should be fine.

Your mp pool is your life, but I see too many people complain they dont have enough MP. Either your DD's suck, or you dont have enough support, or you truly think a blm should be chaincasting.

Get better friends, or learn to play the job the way it was intended.

Eeek

03-30-2011, 11:03 PM

I completely forgot that I made this thread. I can't be sure anymore, but I think I picked Auto-Refresh as an easily understood starting point for discussing MP issues.

BLM can get 7/tick auto-refresh just from gear if they want to:

Owleyes (Though a lot of people hate wearing this)
Wivre Hairpin
Goetia +2 body (2/tick)
Moonshade Earring
Serpentes Set
Stearc Subligar

Certainly a lot better than the 1/tick we could get before Abyssea came out, but yeah you can still burn through all your MP (especially outside abyssea) in no time at all.

Within my LS, I frequently play THF during events. Over the weekend, four of us decided to farm Dyna-Bastok for one or two AF2 pieces that people never got over the years as well as to sell/split currency drops. Some extra pocket change is always nice. It's been a long time, but I finally got the chance to play BLM outside of Abyssea.

My BLM only has access to 6MP/tick in Refresh at this point (Refresh 1 from /RDM, Wivre Hairpin, AF3+1 Body, Moonshade Earring), but with this much Refresh coupled with Aspir2, it's a world of difference from the Level 75 days. I nuked far more than I ever did in the Level 75 days, and not once did I need to rest MP or stare down my Convert timer. Sure, I still could blow through my entire MP pool in no time if I wanted, but by playing sensibly, I didn't have any MP problems.

So yeah, I jumped the gun on making this thread.

But.

The biggest difference maker in Dynamis? Asipr and Aspir2, and aspirable mobs are everywhere in Dynamis. Unfortunately, this isn't so true in the rest of FFXI, which is why I found this point interesting:

Personally, I'd be inclined to suggest a FFXIV option here, although I'm not sure how feasible it would be - change Aspir and Aspir II such that they return MP even from monsters which do not have MP to drain. I've noticed in play that playing BLM against Aspir-able mobs (with Aspir II in the picture) is a completely different ballgame than playing it against things with no MP, and the ability to siphon MP from any monster was something I greatly enjoyed about XIV's MP mechanics.

This is spot on. While reading the thread, I noticed that Aspir and Aspir2 were repeatedly cited as solutions to MP issues, but not once did anyone acknowledge that these spells are worthless unless aspir-able mobs are nearby. As it stands now, Aspir and Aspir2 are only part-time solutions, and that's why I liked Teakwood's argument.

If it's feasible for SE, SE should adjust mobs in FFXI so that they all have MP to aspir, much like they do in FFXIV. I believe that this adjustment would largely solve any MP efficiency for BLM. Furthermore, this adjustment would be a boon to all other jobs with access to Aspir spells from their main jobs or sub jobs.