WS gorgets, are they still worth getting?

[Mirage]

How good are they compared to other gear, now that we have lots of lv75+ stuff?

I'm wondering if I should bother with getting a few more of them for some other WSes, but i don't know how well they perform nowadays.

[Kensagaku]

I personally feel yes. There's a lot of jobs that can still benefit from the gorgets, and they're much easier to get now. For example, a Breeze Gorget still rocks for Blade: Jin, and a lot of NINs use the Shadow Gorget for Blade: Hi. I also have the Shadow Gorget for Evisceration (Gravitation/Transfixion) which works out quite well. I've certainly seen higher numbers from still using them.

[Arcon]

It's a good question actually. Inside Abyssea your Attack will most likely be capped, so adding more won't help much, so WS gorgets should still be good.

Since there aren't that immensely great items for the neck slot yet, I'm not sure for outside of Abyssea (sea torques are still among the best), maybe Agasaya's Collar, other than that I don't know. However, I'm curious about Anguinus Belt vs. elemental WS belts. 15 Att/Acc is quite a huge boost, twice that of Agasaya's Collar. Then again, the belts also have Conserve TP.

I'd like to say they're about the same, but I'm really not sure. Someone would have to check the lolforums if any actual testing has been done.

[Rambus]

light neck, belt rules!

sooo much saved space, /dances.

[Andylynn]

Of course theyre worth using, accuracy, higher FTP mod (seeL Fudo, ridiculous FTP, above average damage), and the belts have conserve TP. They're greater than some of the other options, might as well, unless youre using an STP neck to maintain x-hit after ws.

[Mirage]

The main reason I asked was because someone told me it's not worth using both the belt and the gorget, so if you use the belt (which is better because of conserve TP), you should get something better for neck.

[Frost]

The main reason I asked was because someone told me it's not worth using both the belt and the gorget, so if you use the belt (which is better because of conserve TP), you should get something better for neck.

Depending on the weaponskill, and how many hits the weaponskill is, and off-hand; they can typically provide anywhere from ~2% raw damage to about ~10% damage to a weaponskill per piece; so 4% - 20% paired, and a presumed ~10-20 Accuracy solo/paired respectively.

I don't know the math for Empyrean weapons specifically, but I know for most every other weapon the gorget/belt offer more damage potential than anythign else available for the slots they occupy.

But if you want to work it out on your own, look up any weaponskill on the wiki, and look for the fTP. That is the raw final multiplier after all the math is done basically. If it's calculated to do 800 damage and that fTP is 1.5, it will do 1200. Adding a gorget/belt to that would up the fTP to 1.7, making damage 1,360.

For multi-hit weaponskills like Evisceration, it has 5 hits plus the off-hand; only the first is modified. The fTP on the wiki is only the first hit, all other hits are locked at a 1.0 fTP.

If you were subbing nin, using Evisceration, equipping both gorget and belt, you'd get a 1.2 multiplier for the first hit, and 1.0 for the trailing 5 hits, or a complete fTP of 6.2 which is a 3% increase roughly, as well as 20 accuracy. Arguably, an alternative could be Love Torque and Warwolf Belt. 3% raw Weaponskill damage, 7 conserve TP and 20 accuracy, or 10 dex, ~17 accuracy, and 5 Str. I dont' have the math right now to show which is better, but the margin is going to likely be negligible between the two outside of Abyssea, and heavily in favor of the elemental Gorget/Belt inside due to the amount of raw starts provided.

But that's just Evisceration, others are more clear.

Addendum/Edit: I believe they were proven to stack btw, so it's not an Either/Or situation. Use both.

[Arcon]

The main reason I asked was because someone told me it's not worth using both the belt and the gorget, so if you use the belt (which is better because of conserve TP), you should get something better for neck.

That argument is in itself flawed, since both stack. And the belt has better alternative options (does Conserve TP +7 make up for 8 Acc/Att? Science is tiring), so if anything I'd replace that. But it's hard to say without some real testing, they're probably about the same.

[Maquis]

It mostly depends on the WS you are using.

Single Hit WS, fTP modifier has more relative effect.

For example Tachi: Gekko.
Since you can easily hit fSTR cap in Abyssea and Gekko gets a 100% attack bonus (capping your PDIF) and adding the fact that your first hit in a WS has a huge accuracy boost, there isn't much you can add on gear that can increase the damage. Adding both Gorget and Belt, using maxed randomisers, in my calculations I came to an approximate 12% damage increase on 100TP for using both Belt and Gorget.

On Fudo, this changed to a 5% damage increase, simply because Fudo has a high fTP to start with and doesn't increase it that much relatively speaking.

If you want to go for the best gear set up for a certain WS, you will just have to do the calculation for that WS and then decide if it will be inside or outside Abyssea.


Example:
Lets say we have two weaponskills that use 1 hit. They do the exact same damage with maxed randomisers.

WS1: 800 damage
WS2: 800 damage

But, WS1 achieves this with an fTP value of 1.5. WS2 achieves this with an fTP value of 3.0.

If you were to add 0.1 fTP, this would result in:

(800 / 1.5) * 1.6 = 853
(800 / 3.0) * 3.1 = 827

The increase is low on this example, but you can see that adding 1fTP can have different outcomes based on the fTP value of the WS itself.





TL;DR; version:
- fTP addition is most noticable on single hit WS.
- Check if Abyssea caps you on stats.
- Low fTP on your WS? Gorget and Belt add more in %.



PS: First time I actually wrote this all down as math, so if wrong somewhere, please feel free to correct me.

[Arcon]

PS: First time I actually wrote this all down as math, so if wrong somewhere, please feel free to correct me.

It's quite right, one addition:
Since the fTP value depends on the TP at which the WS is performed, so does the bonus from the gorgets, while STR/Attack will always give the same boost independant of TP.

This, again, depends on the WS itself. There's WS with constant fTP (low fTP like Raging Rush or high fTP like Sidewinder), and WS with heavily rising fTP (like Steel Cyclone).

Raging Rush 100%: 1.0, torque/belt bonus: 10%
Raging Rush 300%: 1.0, torque/belt bonus: 10%

Sidewinder 100%: 5.0, torque/belt bonus: 2%
Sidewinder 300%: 5.0, torque/belt bonus: 2%

Steel Cyclone 100%: 1.5, torque/belt bonus: 6.6%
Steel Cyclone 300%: 3.0, torque/belt bonus: 3.3%

So you see the damage bonus dimishes with higher fTP. The precise bonus is always (fTP+0.1)/fTP. Now let's assume 10STR for Steel Cyclone would give 5% damage boost. That would mean that at 100% it would make more sense to use WS gorget, however at 300% the 10 STR would be a larger damage boost. A general formula to determine the tipping point would be
(fTP+0.1)/fTP = 1 + x
<=> fTP = 0.1/x
where x is the percentual increase in damage. So if we say 10 STR would give Steel Cyclone a 5% damage boost, then the tipping point would be fTP = 0.1/0.05 = 2. Which means before fTP = 2 (under ~220%TP), a WS gorget would produce better results, after fTP = 2 (above ~220%TP), the 10 STR piece would do better.

[RaenRyong]

Gorgets are nice because the neck slot is typically quite weak.

Belts are more niche because the waist slot is strong (Warwolf, Cuchulain's, Anguinus etc).

[Rambus]

It's quite right, one addition:
Since the fTP value depends on the TP at which the WS is performed, so does the bonus from the gorgets, while STR/Attack will always give the same boost independant of TP.

This, again, depends on the WS itself. There's WS with constant fTP (low fTP like Raging Rush or high fTP like Sidewinder), and WS with heavily rising fTP (like Steel Cyclone).

Raging Rush 100%: 1.0, torque/belt bonus: 10%
Raging Rush 300%: 1.0, torque/belt bonus: 10%

Sidewinder 100%: 5.0, torque/belt bonus: 2%
Sidewinder 300%: 5.0, torque/belt bonus: 2%

Steel Cyclone 100%: 1.5, torque/belt bonus: 6.6%
Steel Cyclone 300%: 3.0, torque/belt bonus: 3.3%

So you see the damage bonus dimishes with higher fTP. The precise bonus is always (fTP+0.1)/fTP. Now let's assume 10STR for Steel Cyclone would give 5% damage boost. That would mean that at 100% it would make more sense to use WS gorget, however at 300% the 10 STR would be a larger damage boost. A general formula to determine the tipping point would be
(fTP+0.1)/fTP = 1 + x
<=> fTP = 0.1/x
where x is the percentual increase in damage. So if we say 10 STR would give Steel Cyclone a 5% damage boost, then the tipping point would be fTP = 0.1/0.05 = 2. Which means before fTP = 2 (under ~220%TP), a WS gorget would produce better results, after fTP = 2 (above ~220%TP), the 10 STR piece would do better.

that is not what that means.
this is not dimish returns, or you using game slang?

you get the same bonus whether it is 1 ftp or 5 ftp, what is different is final damage difference and that is not how diminish is define.

[blowfin]

this is not dimishing returns

He didn't call it "diminishing returns" at all though. I wish these threads with useful information wouldn't descend into nitpicking about semantics. The meaning in his post is very clear.:(

With regards to the gorgets/belts, I think people have summed it up quite well. They become debatable with Multi hit WS and WS with higher fTP values. The question is, what is going to outperform them? With Rampage as an example there might be two options for your neck. Temperance torque and Ire Torque (or +1). For elemental based WS you pretty much want to be using Ugly Pendant or Artemis over any gorget unless they have an extremely low fTP. The magical WS are easy to test, with a multi hit WS though, it's near on impossible to get comparative numbers unless you do a lot of testing.

[Rambus]

He didn't call it "diminishing returns" at all though.

With regards to the gorgets/belts, I think people have summed it up quite well. They become debatable with Multi hit WS and WS with higher fTP values. The question is, what is going to outperform them? With Rampage as an example there might be two options for your neck. Temperance torque and Ire Torque (or +1). For elemental based WS you pretty much want to be using Ugly Pendant or Artemis over any gorget unless they have an extremely low fTP. The magical WS are easy to test, with a multi hit WS though, it's near on impossible to get comparative numbers unless you do a lot of testing.

it is not dimishing, it is something else to say the final results are dimishing, the bonus it self is not.

I just want to know if this is game slang or something because someone else told me that is how it is defined and i just want to make sure. I really do not get people slang. Or if he used it wrongly and not know.

I/e:
Nothing is diminishing from a technical define standpoint.

[blowfin]

it is not dimishing, it is something else to say the final results are dimishing, the bonus it self is not

I don't think he ever said the bonus of 0.1 fTP diminishes?

But, the damage the bonus gives does indeed diminish relative to total damage as fTP gets higher. Also as you have more hits on the WS.


di·min·ish   
1.
to make or cause to seem smaller, less, less important, etc.; lessen; reduce.

[Rambus]

nothing is getting smaller though.

Final percent outpoint gains vs a different final percent outpoint gain is incorrect to give such a statement.

When doing so you are treading on diminishing returns concept.

you ALWAYS get .1 ftp, NOTHING is getting smaller

[Arcon]

it is not dimishing, it is something else to say the final results are dimishing, the bonus it self is not

"Diminishing" per definition means "decreasing". The bonus to fTP is always the same (+0.1), the bonus to damage is also the same, the higher the fTP is, however the percentual bonus (in relation to base damage) is lower the higher the fTP is, thus decreasing, diminishing. The phrase diminishing returns means that with constant increases in investments, you get less and less out of it, which can mean both the actual effect (like increases in DEX on melee Critical Hit Rate) as well as the bonus you get out of it (like increases in Double Attack affect your total number of hits). The latter is exactly what's happening here (which, coincidentally, is not even how I meant it, but still applies).

[Rambus]

Final percent outpoint gains vs a different final percent outpoint gain is incorrect to give such a statement.

When doing so you are treading on diminishing returns concept.

it is technically incorrect statement.

statement is needed that you are talking about final outcome comparisons.

what you said is wrong because there is nothing decreasing, you need to state you are talking about final output comparisons.

to me you are saying the bonus it self is different with different ftp vaules, witch is not the case, it is always .1

[Supersun]

what you said is wrong because there is nothing decreasing, you need to state you are talking about final output comparisons.

Actually something is decreasing, the damage bonus you receive IN COMPARISON to other stats.

Yes, nothing is actually decreasing, but measuring damage in a vacuum is pointless. You generally want to know how something outperforms something else.

also, DO NOT START ANOTHER TOPIC ABOUT DIMINISHING RETURNS PLEASE.

[Arcon]

Final percent outpoint gains vs a different final percent outpoint gain is incorrect to give such a statement.

When doing so you are treading on diminishing returns concept.

it is techincally incorract statment.

As I said, I didn't mean it in that way, it's still not wrong though, because something actually is getting smaller: the damage bonus in relation to your base damage. If you thought I meant the fTP bonus is different, then you simply misread, because I said the fTP bonus is 0.1. It depends how you define bonus, if you look at static damage increase or percentual damage increase.

It's a point of view matter really. Define damage as the constant, fTP as the variable and you get diminishing returns clear as day:

D = 1000

D'(fTP) = 1000*(fTP+0.1)/fTP

D'(1) = 1100
D'(2) = 1050
D'(3) = 1033
D'(4) = 1025
D'(5) = 1020
etc.

In most cases it makes sense to look at the percentual increase than the actual damage increase, which is what I applied it to in this scenario.

[Rambus]

As I said, I didn't mean it in that way, it's still not wrong though, because something actually is getting smaller: the damage bonus in relation to your base damage. If you thought I meant the fTP bonus is different, then you simply misread,

to me it could be read like that that is why i was stressing to comment you mean the final damage comparisons are " diminishing"/ final percent gains.

I do not mean to sound like i am trying to pick fights but I like to be clear.

[Harukusan]

But when talking about specific weapon skills, the fTP bonus given through use of gorgets/belts doesn't necessarily directly increase weapon skill damage. Say a weapon skill like Penta Thrust. The fTP bonus simply increases the accuracy of the weapon skill. If your accuracy is already capped, using a gorget would be a waste, and you're better off using more Attack/STR/(insert specific WS mods here). Is this not true?

Furthermore, weapon skills like Raging Rush which fTP increases the chance for the WS to critical hit. The use of a gorget on these WS can be debatable depending on the situation which you use them. Abyssea is a good example of a place where use of a gorget/belt on this WS is not really necessary. You would benefit more, again, from boosting your STR/Attack/DA/other WS mods.

[Rambus]

But when talking about specific weapon skills, the fTP bonus given through use of gorgets/belts doesn't necessarily directly increase weapon skill damage. Say a weapon skill like Penta Thrust. The fTP bonus simply increases the accuracy of the weapon skill. If your accuracy is already capped, using a gorget would be a waste, and you're better off using more Attack/STR/(insert specific WS mods here). Is this not true?

Furthermore, weapon skills like Raging Rush which fTP increases the chance for the WS to critical hit. The use of a gorget on these WS can be debatable depending on the situation which you use them. Abyssea is a good example of a place where use of a gorget/belt on this WS is not really necessary. You would benefit more, again, from boosting your STR/Attack/DA/other WS mods.



* Element: None

* Skillchain Properties: Compression-Icon.gifCompression

* Modifiers: STR:20% ; DEX:20%

* Damage Multipliers by TP:

100%TP 200%TP 300%TP
1.00 1.00 1.00


Depending on the weaponskill, and how many hits the weaponskill is, and off-hand; they can typically provide anywhere from ~2% raw damage to about ~10% damage to a weaponskill per piece; so 4% - 20% paired, and a presumed ~10-20 Accuracy solo/paired respectively.

.......

For multi-hit weaponskills like Evisceration, it has 5 hits plus the off-hand; only the first is modified. The fTP on the wiki is only the first hit, all other hits are locked at a 1.0 fTP.

If you were subbing nin, using Evisceration, equipping both gorget and belt, you'd get a 1.2 multiplier for the first hit, and 1.0 for the trailing 5 hits, or a complete fTP of 6.2 which is a 3% increase roughly, as well as 20 accuracy. Arguably, an alternative could be Love Torque and Warwolf Belt. 3% raw Weaponskill damage, 7 conserve TP and 20 accuracy, or 10 dex, ~17 accuracy, and 5 Str. I dont' have the math right now to show which is better, but the margin is going to likely be negligible between the two outside of Abyssea, and heavily in favor of the elemental Gorget/Belt inside due to the amount of raw starts provided.

But that's just Evisceration, others are more clear.

Addendum/Edit: I believe they were proven to stack btw, so it's not an Either/Or situation. Use both.'


It's quite right, one addition:
Since the fTP value depends on the TP at which the WS is performed, so does the bonus from the gorgets, while STR/Attack will always give the same boost independant of TP.

This, again, depends on the WS itself. There's WS with constant fTP (low fTP like Raging Rush or high fTP like Sidewinder), and WS with heavily rising fTP (like Steel Cyclone).

Raging Rush 100%: 1.0, torque/belt bonus: 10%
Raging Rush 300%: 1.0, torque/belt bonus: 10%

Sidewinder 100%: 5.0, torque/belt bonus: 2%
Sidewinder 300%: 5.0, torque/belt bonus: 2%

Steel Cyclone 100%: 1.5, torque/belt bonus: 6.6%
Steel Cyclone 300%: 3.0, torque/belt bonus: 3.3%

So you see the damage bonus dimishes with higher fTP. The precise bonus is always (fTP+0.1)/fTP. Now let's assume 10STR for Steel Cyclone would give 5% damage boost. That would mean that at 100% it would make more sense to use WS gorget, however at 300% the 10 STR would be a larger damage boost. A general formula to determine the tipping point would be
(fTP+0.1)/fTP = 1 + x
<=> fTP = 0.1/x
where x is the percentual increase in damage. So if we say 10 STR would give Steel Cyclone a 5% damage boost, then the tipping point would be fTP = 0.1/0.05 = 2. Which means before fTP = 2 (under ~220%TP), a WS gorget would produce better results, after fTP = 2 (above ~220%TP), the 10 STR piece would do better.

[Harukusan]

I must have skipped over some posts. Also, I'm not the greatest mathematician, I'm only skilled in counting how many drinks I've had, and smashing faces. Also, I speak/read/write English very well for an American.

[Rambus]

I must have skipped over some posts. Also, I'm not the greatest mathematician, I'm only skilled in counting how many drinks I've had, and smashing faces. Also, I speak/read/write English very well for an American.

np, got your answer? XD

[Arcon]

But when talking about specific weapon skills, the fTP bonus given through use of gorgets/belts doesn't necessarily directly increase weapon skill damage. Say a weapon skill like Penta Thrust. The fTP bonus simply increases the accuracy of the weapon skill. If your accuracy is already capped, using a gorget would be a waste, and you're better off using more Attack/STR/(insert specific WS mods here). Is this not true?

Furthermore, weapon skills like Raging Rush which fTP increases the chance for the WS to critical hit. The use of a gorget on these WS can be debatable depending on the situation which you use them. Abyssea is a good example of a place where use of a gorget/belt on this WS is not really necessary. You would benefit more, again, from boosting your STR/Attack/DA/other WS mods.

To give a direct answer, fTP always related to damage. The fTP value of weapon skills like Penta Thrust and Raging Rush simply isn't affected by TP, but that doesn't make it less relevant in calculating damage. For example, Penta Thrust's Accuracy increase with TP is completely unrelated to the fTP value.

[Harukusan]

Ah right. I understand what you're saying now. I was confusing myself quite a bit there lol. I gotta lay off the bottle for a while :rolleyes:

When I thought fTP, obviously I was thinking of TP mods, not the actual damage rating at each tier. Kind of embarrassing actually ><

Regardless, I was going to get at the point of answering the OP, but I sidetracked myself. The answer to the OP is yes! Elemental gorgets/belts are very much worth getting.