Dear Square Enix, RE: The February Update and Removal of 75 Limbus

[Thekai]

Dear Square Enix,

I wasn't sure where else to post this in hopes that Yoji_Fujito or someone else with Square Enix would see this, but I hope this is a good place. Let me begin by saying that you for your continued effort and investment into FFXI. You passion is clear by the way you manage the game and engage with the player community. That passion is also evident in the way you have consistently innovated to keep the game fresh and lively. It is clear that the people working on the game really love the game.

My brother and I have also loved this game for a long time. We began playing right after the release of Chains of Promathia. At the time, there was nothing like it, and it blew our minds. We absolutely loved the game and specifically the CoP content. One of my fondest memories of my teenage years was watching my brother solo Apollyon NW on Black Mage on the Bahamut server. My brother and I went through a lot together when we were kids, and FFXI and content like Limbus really gave us something special to bond over. Not long after the release of Wings of the Goddess, my brother and I went off to college at opposite ends of the country and grew apart a bit for those years.

When the pandemic hit, he and I decided to play FFXI again. We created characters on Asura, and it was just like old times. We have had numerous adventures and special moments since rejoining, but still, even today, we will level sync down to 75 and I'll watch him solo Apollyon NW, just like old times. There may not be many of us, but we are in a 75-content linkshell on Asura, and we also run Limbus, Sea NMs, and other 75 content with them.

So much of this game is special to us, but one of the most special is the level 75 Limbus content. I know the development team is passionate about this game, and we are excited for the new Limbus and sea content. Though we are saddened to hear that 75 Limbus will be removed, we understand why it is being done. We only hope that you will please reconsider the approach to remove 75 Limbus and rather add the new content as an additional zone. This way, we could enjoy the new content while still being able to level sync and run the original Limbus that has been the source for so many memories.

Thank you,
Thekai

[Alhanelem]

They announced a refresh for Limbus, but I don't recall it being stated anywhere that the existing content was to be removed.

Regardless, the content is pretty meaningless and trivial right now unless you deliberately limit yourself to being lv75, and I think it's for the better that things like proto-omega aren't a joke that can be deleted in seconds.

As it stands, there aren't any plans to go beyond level 119, so just look at it as the new 75. We've been in i119 for a very long time now, comparable to how long the game was at lv75. (Okay, there's master levels, but those aren't all that dramatic).

[Thekai]

I understand what you're saying, and I appreciate the feedback and response. I suppose the message I was trying to convey was that there are some of us, albeit small, who like to level sync old content for nostalgia's sake. Even though there's not really a "reward" for doing so, there's something fun about kiting the dragon or behemoth in Apollyon Northwest while a black mage nukes it down. It's just a different style of play that isn't really in the 119 era, and it is reminiscent of a time that means a lot to us. I appreciate your insight, and I agree. I just hope the ability to level sync and run the current version won't be completely removed.

[Alhanelem]

I understand what you're saying, and I appreciate the feedback and response. I suppose the message I was trying to convey was that there are some of us, albeit small, who like to level sync old content for nostalgia's sake. Even though there's not really a "reward" for doing so, there's something fun about kiting the dragon or behemoth in Apollyon Northwest while a black mage nukes it down. It's just a different style of play that isn't really in the 119 era, and it is reminiscent of a time that means a lot to us. I appreciate your insight, and I agree. I just hope the ability to level sync and run the current version won't be completely removed.
Like I said, quote where they said that the limbus update would entirely replace the original content. They generally have not done this.

[Thekai]

I agree that you're very likely correct. I suppose the thing that gave me pause was the statement "major changes to the content structure." The post seemed ambiguous to me about the continuity of the 75 content, although, I agree it would be a first for them to completely remove it.

[Dragoy]

Well, Dynamis as it was is no longer available either, and the wording in the update notes [1] is quite ambiguous. I haven't watched the stream yet where they talked about it, but my first though was also that they'd be making permanent changes to Limbus as we know it.

1. https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/62384

[Alhanelem]

Well, Dynamis as it was is no longer available either, and the wording in the update notes [1] is quite ambiguous.Original dynamis was revised ages ago, in fact when many old schoolers were still playing. And while it was changed, it's still level 75 content. and remains available to this day despite a high level version now also existing.

I don't know of any content that was simply replaced straight up with a high level version, with the low level version no longer playable at all.

[Stuzey]

Original Limbus has ROE objectives assigned to it, so I doubt they would change it too much, as Alhanelem said, they generally add new versions on top of old.

75 Limbus was great fun solo or low man, BLM ruled one of the zones (I forget which)

[Catmato]

Like I said, quote where they said that the limbus update would entirely replace the original content. They generally have not done this.

They haven't stated that they would, but they've also never temporarily removed content for months before. This is absolutely uncharted territory for SE, and I can't see why they'd have to temporarily remove current content if they were just going to put it back the same way when they were done.

[Dragoy]

They haven't stated that they would, but they've also never temporarily removed content for months before. This is absolutely uncharted territory for SE, and I can't see why they'd have to temporarily remove current content if they were just going to put it back the same way when they were done.

Indeed, and they also mentioned that "you will no longer need ancient beastcoins or items to take on Limbus", which further makes me lean towards thinking they are indeed changing the old as well.

[Alhanelem]

They haven't stated that they would, but they've also never temporarily removed content for months before. This is absolutely uncharted territory for SE, and I can't see why they'd have to temporarily remove current content if they were just going to put it back the same way when they were done.

I don't see anything about "temporarily" removing content either. The development build is seperate from the live one, and you don't need to disable or remove anything in order to work on it. Where are you getting this stuff?

All they ever said about Limbus that I can find is:


Continuing on this path, we are considering implementing item level support for Besieged and also refreshing the Limbus area as well, so we'll be following up with more updates once they're available.It says nothing about "disabling" it, removing it, or anything similar to that. So please tell me where you're getting this information.

[Dragoy]

I don't see anything about "temporarily" removing content either. The development build is seperate from the live one, and you don't need to disable or remove anything in order to work on it. Where are you getting this stuff?

All they ever said about Limbus that I can find is:

It says nothing about "disabling" it, removing it, or anything similar to that. So please tell me where you're getting this information.

It's in the latest version update notes at the time of writing, here:

Announcing the January Version Update

[Alhanelem]

Oh. That's very different, and I legitimately never got around to reading that post.

I understand where the concerns are coming from now lol.

It sounds like they're updating the entirety of Sea to be current-level content.

Which is a potential problem if for no other reason than Absolute Virtue. Will it become impossible again?

Thing is, the items it drops are very obtainable and have been for a while, so changing the Virtues to be current level content would suddenly make those items a lot harder to access. So.... I'd certainly hope that you'd still be able to spawn the original versions of these fights because that would be honestly unfair, regardless of " nostalgia" or anything like that.

I fully support making the classic endgame areas max-level content again, however the original fights still need to be accessible; and in particular you can't change the monsters in the palace, because it would make completing the CoP missions an absolute nightmare. I can only hope they're taking this stuff into account.

So I actually agree with you all now that there are some questions they need to answer. This is a simultaneously exciting and concerning development.

[Dragoy]

Limbus is not connected to Absolute Virtue or the Chains of Pormathia missions though, thankfully, so those parts should stay as they are.

[Zenion]

Limbus is not connected to Absolute Virtue or the Chains of Pormathia missions though, thankfully, so those parts should stay as they are.

I'd like to think they won't - Absolute Virtue is probably not being touched, there's already a level 150 version elsewhere - but I kind of worry that the Promathia missions will be collateral damage here. Considering


In order to adapt the area commonly referred to as the "Sea" to everyone's current level, we will be making some major changes to the content structure and also the monsters that appear within it.

it sounds like that's at least the whole outdoor area. Which is going to make at least one mission a lot harder since it involves running around to points in the zone to pop and fight NMs...

While it's nice to see more of the world adapted to item level play, I do find it a bit worrisome when older areas just get overwritten like that. It creates weird potential problems, like the Hakutaku eye thing when Ranperre's Tomb became the exemplar bot playground. Sure, that may not be relevant content to endgame players now, but if we've decided that means we don't want to care about it existing, why not just start characters off at level 99 and do away with lower level content entirely.

[Alhanelem]

Limbus is not connected to Absolute Virtue or the Chains of Pormathia missions though, thankfully, so those parts should stay as they are.

The post mentions increasing the level of monsters in Sea as well, not just in Limbus. Whether that's just certain clumps of regular monsters or everything is unclear.

[Catmato]

Oh. That's very different, and I legitimately never got around to reading that post.

No offense, but maybe you should have done that BEFORE you started arguing with people.

[Alhanelem]

No offense, but maybe you should have done that BEFORE you started arguing with people.

Offense taken. I read a different announcement in a different location, and there was nothing to tell me that this one existed other than a yellow icon in the forum index in a forum I don't usually click on (because it gets linked to on the main page instead). It's not reasonable to fault me for that. That information should have been included everywhere this was mentioned.

Also the conversation continued normally without anyone else caring, so why did you feel the need to post this to distract from that?

[Final_Farcity]

Perhaps, more proof the level cap should not have been raised. XI's direction shifted towards grindy content. Granted, mmo in general are a grind, but the devs are now partaking in the grind themselves, trying to keep up with the grind they perhaps should not have created......

How many of us would welcome going back to the 75 cap? What I mean is this, XI will go back to the lvl 75 cap and all the content will be scaled down as such. As much as I like 75, that would severely impact the solo-ablity of XI.......

[Zenion]

Perhaps, more proof the level cap should not have been raised. XI's direction shifted towards grindy content. Granted, mmo in general are a grind, but the devs are now partaking in the grind themselves, trying to keep up with the grind they perhaps should not have created......

How many of us would welcome going back to the 75 cap? What I mean is this, XI will go back to the lvl 75 cap and all the content will be scaled down as such. As much as I like 75, that would severely impact the solo-ablity of XI.......

Wow, yeah. I remember how famously not-grindy 75 era was. Like, you were never expected to spend months doing experience points parties for a single job, or literal years to receive a single piece of gear... nope, good ol' do it all in an afternoon 75 cap Final Fantasy XI, where anything you felt like doing was over and done in an afternoon.

Aside from master levels - which seem like a direct response to people whining about how much they miss the old exp party days, without understanding that players actively continue to not just form exp parties now because they're slow and inefficient - the worst grinds in the game are still legacy content. 30000 alexandrite, seriously - nobody's doing that, no matter how easy Salvage might be now. Dynamis coins, still terrible even with occasional 100 piece drops. Imagine doing skillups without Ionis, skillup food, and a practically unkillable mob that can only hurt you with poison to hammer on; I still remember stealth missions to shadowreign Castle Zvahl to set up overnight autoattacking the fortilaces, it was miserable.

If you scale everything back down to 75, now you have all that same horrible grind, only you need an alliance to all waste their time for one person to clear it. Nah, I don't fancy being number 18 on the waitlist for a piece of gear when numbers 1 through 8 all decide to say "screw you, got mine" and quit when they get tired of supporting the group after they got their stuff.

I kind of hope they do make a legacy 75 cap server so everyone can hop on that and be reminded that the game sucked back then, what was good was the community, and that's mostly moved on. Enjoy sitting in Kazham for three months straight because there aren't enough people looking for an experience party in the jungle for you to make level 27 Warrior and start unlocking your advanced jobs.

[Catmato]

So please tell me where you're getting this information.

Sorry, just realized I never answered your question! Silly me.

If you click on Forum Top on the top left of this page, it will take you to the "top" of these forums where you can find an index of all of the various forums. Down the right side of that page is a Dev Tracker. A Dev Tracker is a list of forum posts from the "Devs", or people representing the developers of the game. Posts from developers are one of very few sources of official information about this game, another being Playonline.com. As my writing this, the bottom entry in that Dev Tracker is a link to a post titled "Announcing the January Version Update". That post is the source of the information that this entire thread is based on.

Remember: if somebody, especially multiple other people, seem to have new information about FFXI that you are missing, its best to check for information from the devs that you may have missed, instead of just assuming that people are making things up or jumping to conclusions. The Dev Tracker and playonline.com are the two best places for this.

[Catmato]

How many of us would welcome going back to the 75 cap? What I mean is this, XI will go back to the lvl 75 cap and all the content will be scaled down as such.

Sounds like it wouldn't solve any problems, just keep the same problems with a lower number.

[Alhanelem]

Sorry, just realized I never answered your question! Silly me.

If you click on Forum Top on the top left of this page, it will take you to the "top" of these forums where you can find an index of all of the various forums. Down the right side of that page is a Dev Tracker. A Dev Tracker is a list of forum posts from the "Devs", or people representing the developers of the game. Posts from developers are one of very few sources of official information about this game, another being Playonline.com. As my writing this, the bottom entry in that Dev Tracker is a link to a post titled "Announcing the January Version Update". That post is the source of the information that this entire thread is based on.

Remember: if somebody, especially multiple other people, seem to have new information about FFXI that you are missing, its best to check for information from the devs that you may have missed, instead of just assuming that people are making things up or jumping to conclusions. The Dev Tracker and playonline.com are the two best places for this.
This had already been addressed by others before you replied. Just FYI.

[Alhanelem]

Perhaps, more proof the level cap should not have been raised.No. The level cap should have been raised SOONER, so that people didn't get so accustomed to things staying the same way for so long. Perhaps it could have been implemented more the way things like Job Points and Master Levels were so that huge amounts of new gear didn't end up being so necessary (but we still need new things to chase after or people will get bored, so... I don't know).

MMOs necessitate change and evolution over time. Virtually all other MMOs do things like raise the level cap. If the level cap had risen in every expansion, like every other MMO, frankly I think it the game would not have stagnated when it did. Although I still attribute a large part of this to Abyssea being a power playground that got in the way of future content being able to thrill players. A lot of people talk about the level cap but I think that was just one factor of many, and a fairly small one at that.

If we were still 75 today, and all of our power came from gear, equipment itself would have to become ridiculous by this point, as there's only so many ways you can sidegrade everything before it becomes impossible to tell what will augment your job and what won't.

Which is one of the biggest problems with the system some veterans seem to cherish so much- sure, collecting lots of gear to enhance different things is fun, but it's also overtly complicated and for MMO players today, nobody really has any idea what items to prioritize and what will do them the most good, etc. It's easy to just look at some numbers and see "these numbers are bigger so it must be better," versus "do I want store TP? do I want subtle blow? do I want TP bonus? What does "enhances <thing> mean?" There's so many variables it confuses a lot of people who haven't been here since the beginning. And I don't mean to imply that the depth of the gear and combat system is just a bad thing, it's not. But it is definitely the biggest thing that puts off new players and makes it difficult for players who quit long ago to return. Many popular MMOs don't even let you change gear in combat, so without someone telling them, some people may not even know to do that (the game itself doesn't tell you....). This isn't a problem for me or you, but it's a problem for anyone who isn't a current player.

[Marthius]

"Hello, Marthius here, long time reader, first time replier!"

Personally, and I remember it being the case for many others, the level cap raise wasn't as much of a problem as removing the cap from certain (CoP missions) areas, missions and battlefields that I found to be sad at the time. I didn't like that all the tough (and annoying) CoP missions were suddenly going to be super easy for everyone, when I (and many others) had to struggle for months and sometimes years to just beat them. One fight especially, CoP 6-4, where I had been stuck with about 0/60 tries was suddenly going to become incredibly easy to beat. Luckily I somehow beat it with a PuG about a week before the uncap.
Abyssea I think was also fine, but many seemed to hate the idea of SMN burns which was suddenly a popular way to go from 1-75+ and worm parties which were braindead.


But in hindsight, having level caps of 30, 50 and 60 for important missions was kinda stupid, especially since all of them required teamwork, the right gear and items and time to do. So it was nice that they removed the level cap on them.