Mud Spikes, Wind Spikes, and Aqua Spikes

[Zyeriis]

Seeing as we have spikes spells for all the other elements:
Blaze Spikes (Fire)
Ice Spikes (Ice) - Can cause Paralyze
Shock Spikes (Lightning) - Can cause Stun
Dread Spikes (Dark) - Damage taken becomes HP gained
Reprisal (Light) - Shield use increased

Why not add in Spikes spells for the remaining 3 elements?

Mud Spikes (Earth) - Can cause Slow
Wind Spikes (Wind) - Can cause Gravity or Silence (Silence might be overpowerful, so I offer gravity as an alternative as it is also wind based)
Aqua Spikes (Water) - Can cause Poison

The idea for these new spells is relatively simple and would be no more powerful than the current spikes spells. I've personally always found it silly that there weren't spells of these elements in spike format. While, every other spell type in the game generally does have at least one spell of each element.

As for what jobs that would be able to use them? Naturally, it would be Black Mage and Red Mage, like all the other original spikes spells (not dread spikes or reprisal which are drk and pld respectively).

[noodles355]

Water Spikes is called Aquaviel
Earth Spikes is called Stoneskin
Wind Spikes is called Blink

[Zyeriis]

Water Spikes is called Aquaviel
Earth Spikes is called Stoneskin
Wind Spikes is called Blink

None of those deal damage to the enemy, thus are not spikes?

[noodles355]

Thunder Fire and Ice can be seen as offensive spikes, Earth Water and Wind can be seen as defensive spikes.

[Zyeriis]

You really think I didn't take them into consideration? I purposefully called the water version "Aqua Spikes" for a reason. Or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing? As it stands, saying stoneskin, aquaveil, and blink are the equivalent does in no way hinder the idea of adding actual spikes spells of those elements. Nor does it hinder adding fire, lightning, and ice based defensive spells... I simply didn't bother to think of those. We have both Phalanx and Reprisal, both light element based "spikes" spells, one deals damage, one does not, after all.

[Urteil]

RDM doesn't need ***.

[noodles355]

I'm saying the 6 spells Blaze Spikes, Shock Spikes, Ice Spikes, Aquaviel, Stoneskin and Blink form one group of elemental buff spells. Three offensive buff spells, three defensive buff spells.

The tone of your responses makes it seem like you are taking far too much offence than you should do to my reply. I never agreed or disagreed with you that three new spells should be implamented. I simply stated the fact that what you concider a group of 5 spike spells, can also be concidered a group of 8 elemental buff spells. I didn't even state a conclusion that one could draw from this fact, I mearly stated the fact it's self.

Quite why you took that as me trying to start an argument with you I really don't know. It can't be healthy jumping to negative conclusions at every available oppertunity.

[Zyeriis]

I'm saying the 6 spells Blaze Spikes, Shock Spikes, Ice Spikes, Aquaviel, Stoneskin and Blink form one group of elemental buff spells. Three offensive buff spells, three defensive buff spells.

The tone of your responses makes it seem like you are taking far too much offence than you should do to my reply. I never agreed or disagreed with you that three new spells should be implamented. I simply stated the fact that what you concider a group of 5 spike spells, can also be concidered a group of 8 elemental buff spells. I didn't even state a conclusion that one could draw from this fact, I mearly stated the fact it's self.

Quite why you took that as me trying to start an argument with you I really don't know. It can't be healthy jumping to negative conclusions at every available oppertunity.

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]

So, now, you're merely trying to make me look the bad guy? Tone, really? That's where you're taking this? Responding with, yet again, another post that adds absolutely nothing, nor actually discusses the idea of adding the spikes spells does nothing to help your case.

Anyway, I simply stated the fact that you were wrong by providing that phalanx and reprisal comparison that proves that rule to be false.

[Swords]

I think some don't grasp the concept of "Spikes" as a general game term, not exclusively pertaining to FFXI's spike spells.

Spike terms in games, originated from items like Spike breastplate or spiked shield. Any time you tried to attack someone with such armor, you stood a decent chance of being impaled or injured by the spikes if they were to bash or tackle you. So in game terms, there is no such thing as a defensive "Spikes" unless it retaliates with damage in some way.

I don't think I would mind seeing new forms of spike spells, but I'm not sure they would be practical where many of the newer NM's have become increasingly resistant or immune to debuffs.

[noodles355]

Actually it was relevant. The statement that Water Wind and Earth elements already have a spike version can lead to the conclusion that it would be out of cannon for SE to add 3 new spike spells.

And I don't believe your example of Phalanx is relevant. The protect and shell lines of spells are also Light Element. I don't think it's unrealistic to concider Phalanx, Shell and Protect as separate spells outside these 8 elemental spikes. You could base this purely on the animations of the spells.

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).] In short: Why so serious? Relax.

[Zyeriis]

Actually it was relevant. The statement that Water Wind and Earth elements already have a spike version can lead to the conclusion that it would be out of cannon for SE to add 3 new spike spells.

And I don't believe your example of Phalanx is relevant. The protect and shell lines of spells are also Light Element. I don't think it's unrealistic to concider Phalanx, Shell and Protect as separate spells outside these 8 elemental spikes. You could base this purely on the animations of the spells.

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).] In short: Why so serious? Relax.

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]


I think some don't grasp the concept of "Spikes" as a general game term, not exclusively pertaining to FFXI's spike spells.

Spike terms in games, originated from items like Spike breastplate or spiked shield. Any time you tried to attack someone with such armor, you stood a decent chance of being impaled or injured by the spikes if they were to bash or tackle you. So in game terms, there is no such thing as a defensive "Spikes" unless it retaliates with damage in some way.

I don't think I would mind seeing new forms of spike spells, but I'm not sure they would be practical where many of the newer NM's have become increasingly resistant or immune to debuffs.

Hmm, I won't deny it probably wouldn't be practical against those newer NMs. That's not to say the spells would be entirely impractical. There are other parts of the game. And yeah, they're not spikes if there's no retaliation, thats the definition of the word.

Any one have input regarding the wind spikes? Would silence be too much? Is gravity not enough? I can't personally think of another decent wind based enfeeble for them. If it was gravity, wind spikes would make a nice kiting buff for when gravity wears off. Also, what about the Aqua spikes? Poison was the only water based enfeeble I could think of. Am i forgetting some? Also unsure of how potent it should be. i.e. Poison 1 vs. Poison 2, etc.

[Rambus]

it is not needed per say but i can see the logic augment to complete a spike list.

noodles355 your augment is not relevant.

I think some don't grasp the concept of "Spikes" as a general game term, not exclusively pertaining to FFXI's spike spells.

Spike terms in games, originated from items like Spike breastplate or spiked shield. Any time you tried to attack someone with such armor, you stood a decent chance of being impaled or injured by the spikes if they were to bash or tackle you. So in game terms, there is no such thing as a defensive "Spikes" unless it retaliates with damage in some way.

I don't think I would mind seeing new forms of spike spells, but I'm not sure they would be practical where many of the newer NM's have become increasingly resistant or immune to debuffs.

[noodles355]

You appear to have missed where I stated that they could be concidered as eight elemental buff spells, and not as 5 spike spells. And it's a fair point because they can. They could be interpreted as either way. Interpreting them as the latter, 8 elmenental buff spells, would leave no room for three new spike spells.

@Zyeriis, I think stating that I don't believe there is logical space for the spells is in fact on topic and not irrelevant. It is an opinion relating to the topic at hand. It holds exactly as much weight as your opinion that there is room for them, when concidering the relevance of the replies: both are an opinion based on an interpretation of the grouping of a set of spells. If you wish to dismiss my view that there isn't space for them then you should equally dismiss your view that there is space for them.

[Rambus]

You appear to have missed where I stated that they "weren't five spike spells, but 8 elemental buff spells". That is a fair point. They could be interpreted as either way. Interpreting them as the latter, 8 elmenental buff spells, would leave no room for three new spike spells.

@Zyeriis, I think stating that I don't believe there is logical space for the spells is in fact on topic and not irrelevant. It is an opinion relating to the topic at hand. It holds exactly as much weight as your opinion that there is room for them, when concidering the relevance of the replies: both are an opinion based on an interpretation of the grouping of a set of spells. If you wish to dismiss my view that there isn't space for them then you should equally dismiss your view that there is space for them.

No it is not a fair point and i think the phalanx point should killed your view, you also have pro and shell that is light based. there is no such thing as having too many buffs that is aliened with one element.

[noodles355]

The OP's argument for including the spells is that "They would complete the set of 8 elemental spike spells". The counter argument I am making is "The 5 spike spells are part of a group of 8 elemental buff spells, which would leave no room for them in the group".
It's a purely RP based point.

As I stated, the grouping of the spells as either 5 spike spells or 8 elemental buff spells is purely speculation and opinion. Both are purely as valid as each other as they are both just opinions.

[Rambus]

I think some don't grasp the concept of "Spikes" as a general game term, not exclusively pertaining to FFXI's spike spells.

Spike terms in games, originated from items like Spike breastplate or spiked shield. Any time you tried to attack someone with such armor, you stood a decent chance of being impaled or injured by the spikes if they were to bash or tackle you. So in game terms, there is no such thing as a defensive "Spikes" unless it retaliates with damage in some way.

I don't think I would mind seeing new forms of spike spells, but I'm not sure they would be practical where many of the newer NM's have become increasingly resistant or immune to debuffs.

like i said:
you also have pro and shell that is light based. there is no such thing as having too many buffs that is aliened with one element.

[Zyeriis]

You appear to have missed where I stated that they could be concidered as eight elemental buff spells, and not as 5 spike spells. And it's a fair point because they can. They could be interpreted as either way. Interpreting them as the latter, 8 elmenental buff spells, would leave no room for three new spike spells.

@Zyeriis, I think stating that I don't believe there is logical space for the spells is in fact on topic and not irrelevant. It is an opinion relating to the topic at hand. It holds exactly as much weight as your opinion that there is room for them, when concidering the relevance of the replies: both are an opinion based on an interpretation of the grouping of a set of spells. If you wish to dismiss my view that there isn't space for them then you should equally dismiss your view that there is space for them.

It doesn't matter how you put it. I've already proven that there is "room" for them with the phalanx/reprisal comparison. You bringing up protect/shell only goes further to prove it. It is irrelevant because there is no reason to not add them aside from your opinion on them fitting or not, which is in no way discussing the actual spells. I accurately surmised your point of view from the very first post you made. And as I've said before, I took it into consideration. "3 offensive spikes and 3 defensive spikes (not actually spikes)" in no way is a reason to not add them as that could just as easily be 6 offensive spikes and 6 defensive spikes (not actually spikes). Which, I remind you one last time, is the idea.

[Rambus]

It doesn't matter how you put it. I've already proven that there is "room" for them with the phalanx/reprisal comparison. You bringing up protect/shell only goes further to prove it. It is irrelevant because there is no reason to not add them aside from your opinion on them fitting or not, which in no way discussing the actual spells. I accurately surmised your point of view from the very first post you made. And as I've said before, I took it into consideration. "3 offensive spikes and 3 defensive spikes (not actually spikes)" in no way is a reason to not add them as that could just as easily be 6 offensive spikes and 6 defensive spikes (not actually spikes). Which, I remind you one last time, is the idea.

I think I bought up the pro and shell thing but i can state more elemental aliened buffs if they like to kill their irrelevant view.

[noodles355]

One could counter your argument by saying "Light Elemental defensive spells are an exception" due to Light element being used for spells that would otherwise have no elemental affinity. You could further argue that Reprisal is actually based off light magic through intent, whereas Phalanx, Shell and Protect are based off light magic because there is no "none" element for spells.

@Rambus, with such harsh dismissive replies such as "you are wrong" and "an irrelevant opinion" you are sounding hypocritical concidering your crusade for polite responses and constructive criticism. Is this a matter of "Do as I say, not as I do"? If you were to follow your own advice you would rephrase "you are wrong" with "I believe you are wrong for the following reasons" and "an irrelevant view" with "a view I disagree with".

[Zyeriis]

One could counter your argument by saying "Light Elemental defensive spells are an exception" due to Light element being used for spells that would otherwise have no elemental affinity. You could further argue that Reprisal is actually based off light magic through intent, whereas Phalanx, Shell and Protect are based off light magic because there is no "none" element for spells.

@Rambus, with such harsh dismissive replies such as "you are wrong" and "an irrelevant opinion" you are sounding hypocritical concidering your crusade for polite responses and constructive criticism. Is this a matter of "Do as I say, not as I do"? If you were to follow your own advice you would rephrase "you are wrong" with "I believe you are wrong for the following reasons" and "an irrelevant view" with "a view I disagree with".

Invisible, Sneak, Deodorize, are wind based.
Haste is wind based also. Where does this fit in? Is this another "exception" just because it doesn't fit in with what you are saying?
You can argue that those are different types of enhancing magic but, isn't that the point I'm trying to make?

(I won't deny the invis/sneak comparison is a bad one but the haste one isn't)

[Kensagaku]

Alright, first off, I feel that noodles has a relevant argument. If you consider spikes as "defensive spells" then there is indeed one for each element. You bring up haste, sneak, invis, and deodorize, but these are not defensive spells. The first is an offensive augment, and the latter three are for stealth. I feel light is a general gray area simply because of the fact that it's all protective magic in the long run. Protect and shell lines, regens, phalanx, etc. With this analogy in mind I do feel that they have a strong argument in their favor.

However (and this is bolded so you don't start replying to just the first part; not saying you will but people with strong opinions tend to just immediately go after counter-views without reading the rest):

I do feel your argument has merit too. Why not add some more spikes? I could certainly see how they would be useful. At the same time though, I feel that added effects on all of them is unnecessary. Look at Blaze Spikes and Reprisal; both of these have no added effect on the enemy. They simply do damage as retaliation. Aqua Spikes with their Poison I could see; Earth Spikes inflicting slow might be a bit OP situationally, but for the most part I don't have anything against them. I feel that Wind Spikes is something that is more set to be just pure damage. So there is merit to your suggestions too, and maybe with a bit of tweaking they could be viable.

Now, this is gonna come off as attacking, and I apologize if it does, but that is not my intent. I feel that you are being overly aggressive and zealous about your point, to the point you are making sarcastic or blunt arguments. Everyone has their opinion, and just because they disagree with you does not mean that they're trying to beat you down. You've made several valid points, but I feel that the way in which you address them comes off badly. Take a moment to step back and calm down; maybe you two will find a compromise, or perhaps will find evidence that makes the other say "Okay, I see your point, it could indeed be valid."

This is a suggestions thread, guys. We make suggestion, we discuss which are plausible and not and why we feel that way, and if the Devs see something in it, they'll snap it right up. But let's keep it civil, yeah?

[Zyeriis]

Alright, first off, I feel that noodles has a relevant argument. If you consider spikes as "defensive spells" then there is indeed one for each element. You bring up haste, sneak, invis, and deodorize, but these are not defensive spells. The first is an offensive augment, and the latter three are for stealth. I feel light is a general gray area simply because of the fact that it's all protective magic in the long run. Protect and shell lines, regens, phalanx, etc. With this analogy in mind I do feel that they have a strong argument in their favor.

However (and this is bolded so you don't start replying to just the first part; not saying you will but people with strong opinions tend to just immediately go after counter-views without reading the rest):

I do feel your argument has merit too. Why not add some more spikes? I could certainly see how they would be useful. At the same time though, I feel that added effects on all of them is unnecessary. Look at Blaze Spikes and Reprisal; both of these have no added effect on the enemy. They simply do damage as retaliation. Aqua Spikes with their Poison I could see; Earth Spikes inflicting slow might be a bit OP situationally, but for the most part I don't have anything against them. I feel that Wind Spikes is something that is more set to be just pure damage. So there is merit to your suggestions too, and maybe with a bit of tweaking they could be viable.

Now, this is gonna come off as attacking, and I apologize if it does, but that is not my intent. I feel that you are being overly aggressive and zealous about your point, to the point you are making sarcastic or blunt arguments. Everyone has their opinion, and just because they disagree with you does not mean that they're trying to beat you down. You've made several valid points, but I feel that the way in which you address them comes off badly. Take a moment to step back and calm down; maybe you two will find a compromise, or perhaps will find evidence that makes the other say "Okay, I see your point, it could indeed be valid."

This is a suggestions thread, guys. We make suggestion, we discuss which are plausible and not and why we feel that way, and if the Devs see something in it, they'll snap it right up. But let's keep it civil, yeah?

Not going to argue with you about how I responded. First response from other person I viewed and still view as rude and I responded in kind. That's not going to change (the viewed as a blatantly rude knock down response part is not going to change).

Blaze Spikes is the first spikes spell, so I thought it was a legitimate enough reason to it not having anything other damage to it. That being said, these higher level spikes should have more to them or do good chunks of damage. The problem is, the damage would have to be significant to showcase their individuality, and thats where I feel they could truly become overpowered. The status effects are luck based in the end, so ultimately less prone to abuse. As for reprisal, it does in fact do more than just damage the enemy. It increases shield usage (like a shield skill+ trait) in a significant manner.

I've reviewed the argument about the wind spikes and came up with an alternative idea. However, this may sound potentially overpowered as well. Since haste is wind based, why not add a self-target haste proc from enemy attacks to wind spikes instead? This would make wind spikes wholly unique in that it would result in a buff rather than a debuff. The same can be said for mud/stone spikes adding stoneskin (much like some NMs who gather stoneskin based upon how much damage is dealt to them when they do something). I wouldn't do this for water spikes + aquaveil as that just sounds way too weak and would rather stick with the poison idea.

I am going to slightly retract my statement that noodle was being completely non-constructive as it did spark this alternative idea, to tie them in with the other enhancing magics of the same element.

As for the haste argument about it being another wind based defensive magic. It still is, it just has offensive boosts as well. It does speed up recast timers mind you, which can be used for self-preservation just like stoneskin and blink and even more so, aquaveil, which affects spell interruption.

[Rambus]

Invisible, Sneak, Deodorize, are wind based.
Haste is wind based also. Where does this fit in? Is this another "exception" just because it doesn't fit in with what you are saying?
You can argue that those are different types of enhancing magic but, isn't that the point I'm trying to make?

(I won't deny the invis/sneak comparison is a bad one but the haste one isn't)

agreed she is molding information to suit her agurment, and i do not like that. It is a false view and she is trying to say anything so she is not "wrong"

her saying light is a "no element", are you joking? i guess a light skillchain or a trasfixion skillchain has no element:

Light:
Protect
Protect II
Protect III
Protect IV
Protect V
protectra
protectra II
protectra III
protectra IV
protectra V
Shell
Shell II
Shell III
Shell IV
Shell V
shellra
shellra II
shellra III
shellra IV
shellra V
Barblindra
barblind
Barsleep
Barsleepra
Phalanx
Phalanx II
regen
regen II
regen III
Regen IV
refresh
Refersh II
Reraise
Reraise II
Reraise III
Seline coat
Army's paeon
Army's paeon II
Army's paeon III
Army's paeon IV
Army's paeon V
Army's paeon VI
Mage's ballad
Mage's ballad II
Mage's ballad III
Fowl Aubade
Shining Fantasia
Warding round
Enchamting Etude
Dark carol
Goddess's Hymnus
Bewitching Etude
Auspice
Aurorastorm
Battery charge
Regeneration
Enlight
Boost-CHR
Foe Sirvente
Adverturer's dirge
Reprisal
Animus Minuo
Adloquium
Gain-CHR
Myoshu: Ichi

Dark:
Light Carol
Dread spikes
Voidstorm
Klimaform
Magic Barrier
Animus Augeo
Endark

Fire:
Barblizzard
Barblizzara
Barparalyze
Barparalyzra
Enfire
Enfire II
Blaze spikes
Valor Minuet
Valor Minuet II
Valor Minuet III
Valor Minuet IV
Valor Minuet V
Goblin Gavotte
Sinewy Etude
Herculean etude
Ice carol
firestorm
Triumphant roar
Fantod

Earth:
Stoneskin
Barthunder
Barthundra
Enstone
Enstone II
Metallic body
Cocoon
Warm-up
Diamondhide
Knight's mine....

ok i am tried of doing this, look there is like 6 forms of stoneskin (maybe there is 7 since rampart conflits with stoneskin *something Conflicted with it after update and i do not remember what it was and if it was changed, i think it is stoneskin*), 3 haste, 1 blaze spikes, 2 forms of shock spikes, 2 forms of ice spikes so how can you sit here and say aquaviel counts for water midgration ( when you have water based bars and bard buffs) earth "spikes" is stoneskin when there is 6 forms of it, and wind covering blink when there is 4 forms of blink and 2 utsusemis that are wind, 3 forms of haste, then you have invisible, sneak, deodorize, feather barrier, mazurka, and other such buffs you have not thought about because it does not suit your view?

there is no such thing as one element having too meny buffs so it cannot fit

[Tamarsamar]

For what it's worth, I share noodles' sentiment of Blaze Spikes, Ice Spikes, Shock Spikes, and Aquaveil, Blink, and Stoneskin were parts of similar cycles of spells, generally available between levels 10-30 to Black Mages and White Mages. If one were to "complete the Spikes line," then I don't see any reason why the Aqua/Blink/Skin line shouldn't be "completed" in kind.

[Rambus]

For what it's worth, I share noodles' sentiment of Blaze Spikes, Ice Spikes, Shock Spikes, and Aquaveil, Blink, and Stoneskin were parts of similar cycles of spells, generally available between levels 10-30 to Black Mages and White Mages. If one were to "complete the Spikes line," then I don't see any reason why the Aqua/Blink/Skin line shouldn't be "completed" in kind.

because you are forgetting there is more forms of said buffs then others, also there is more elements that exists for buffs then you are accounting for. /point to post above you.

did you know there is that meny forms of blink? stoneskin? more then one ice and shock spike spell but only one blaze spikes?

[Tamarsamar]

If you would stop treating noodles and I like idiots for a moment, you would see that we're not really contesting your points.

Yes, there are many different buffs across many different elements, and even multiple ways of getting the same effect provided by spells of different names (we can mostly thank Blue Mage and Summoner for this), but what do they have to do with the Blaze/Ice/Shock Spikes line of spells and the Aquaveil/Blink/Stoneskin line of spells specifically? (It is worth mentioning that I am referring specifically to the spells of those names, and not the status effects that they provide which they are named for.)

[Zyeriis]

For what it's worth, I share noodles' sentiment of Blaze Spikes, Ice Spikes, Shock Spikes, and Aquaveil, Blink, and Stoneskin were parts of similar cycles of spells, generally available between levels 10-30 to Black Mages and White Mages. If one were to "complete the Spikes line," then I don't see any reason why the Aqua/Blink/Skin line shouldn't be "completed" in kind.

I've said the last line of this before. They could very well complete the defensive (not actually "spikes") side as well. Hmm, all that remains really is to figure out an idea for each of those 3 elements: fire, lightning, and ice.

I guess I'll take a stab at it but be warned that this is an off the top of my head idea stream.

Ice could have a spell similar to Blink, that procs randomly and only a set number of times (perhaps once). The effect would be Reflect, where a spell casted upon the player gets returned in kind automatically (though randomly) to the enemy that casted it. Dangers here are if the enemy casts an AoE spell, you may wind up surrounded by multiple enemies, caution is urged when using this.

Lightning could be a Potency spell (Critical hit Rate +) or Faith spell (Increases magical attack).

Fire could be a Bravery Spell (Attack Boost Spell) or Morale spell (slightly boosts all stats for a short amount of time).

[Rambus]

Water Spikes is called Aquaviel
Earth Spikes is called Stoneskin
Wind Spikes is called Blink

This looks rude to me, stating opion as fact.

spikes overide one anther, you cannot have reprisal and ice spikes for exmaple

but you can have aquaviel, stoneskin, and a spike effect spell.

there is 5 or 6 different forms of stoneskin, depending how you view them.

there is 4-6 different blinks ( ustu and blink are different "blinks") and conflit with 3 eye

there are other damage migration buffs for said elements that does not conflict with spike type spells

1 type of fire spikes
3 types of icespikes (forgot shiva in my last post)
2 forms of shock spikes

and all forms of said spikes conflict with each other where the other buffs do not.

Therefore it is an unfounded option.

[Kensagaku]

I like where these ideas are going. Sometimes it takes a little disagreement to come up with some truly unique and interesting thoughts, and look where this thread has gone! We've got ideas for new offensive and defensive buffs coming along. This is truly coming along well.

To point out the ideas that I've liked/come up with myself, using some text from the existing spells:

Offensive Spikes
Aqua Spikes - Covers you with magical water spikes. Enemies that hit you take water damage. Additional Effect: May inflict Poison on attacking enemies.

Gale Spikes - Covers you with magical wind spikes. Enemies that hit you take wind damage.
~Note: This would be comparable to the other spikes as blaze spikes is to ice/shock spikes at the moment; higher overall damage due to lack of additional effect.

Terra Spikes - Covers you with magical earth spikes. Enemies that hit you take earth damage. Additional Effect: May inflict Slow on attacking enemies.

Defensive Spells
Reflect (Ice-based): Creates ice mirrors that each reflect a single spell directed at you.
~Notes: The user would still take damage; otherwise this would just be a buffed Blink because blink can absorb single-targets. Would also create only two ice mirrors, identical to blink. AoEs would be reflected in an AoE around the target, which means that you'd have to be very careful with use.

Bravery (Fire-Based): Increases the attack power of one target.
~Notes: Would be affected by Accession like any other spell, making it more useful with a /SCH subjob. Would be a smaller boost based on the user's Enhancing Magic Skill but still useful.

Faith (Thunder-Based): Increases the magical attack power of one target.
~Notes: Think of this as the magical version of Bravery, adding perhaps a small amount of MAB based on the user's Enhancing Magic.


How do these ideas sound?

[Rambus]

reflect in past FF is a spell when magic is casted on you it is reflected, this means all harmful and support magic and a good way around that was to cast reflect on the mob so you can bounce cures to yourself lol.

if you have to take damage to repel the magic back to caster that is more the lines of "magic counter". this is a trait in FFIX and this is what i called what carbi do. I never understood people trying to label it reflect.

Reason I am stating this is because I am considered about the name and what it does vs past FF games. making it like past FF games would make it imbalanced unless it was long recast with only able to do it with attack spell.

Your attack buff I do not like, the reason is for my magic list post I was making. There is A LOT of fire buffing spells that buff attack and I even think you can call berserk fire support too (mighty strikes, berserk, warcry, restraint, last resort are red in menu). There is also SCH firestorm with stormsurge merits to grant STR.

If you where going to buff magic attack it would have to be ice. There is a lot of ice based buffing that buffs magic attack ( memento mori, ice staff) INT is also considered the “ice” stat. ( see gear, sage etude, and hailstorm)

[Zyeriis]

Hmm, why didn't I think of the name Gale Spikes... /facepalm, it's so obvious that's what I should've named them now.

I guess I can kind of see what your idea was for them now as being a higher level version of blaze spikes but, i still have to question whether they will either A) not be worth it because they offer no status effect or B) be too powerful. I'm going to re-iterate the haste proc idea. The haste wouldn't be as potent as a normal haste spell, maybe +1% or +2% haste, nor would they stack, the actual spell "haste" would override this haste as it is far more potent. Then what possible benefits does it have? Well, if it procs, it would override slow if you were currently inflicted with it. Perhaps a +1% Fast cast could be tacked on as well (lost if it gets an override from normal haste spell). I can see it's uses against things that cause AoE debuffs and stacks them. Gale Spikes would be useful to have up if you get hit with slow and/or get silenced. Stack Gale Spikes with /SCH and you have a mild hastega that has a slight fast cast boost as well. Not forgetting that the spikes themselves also deal damage on top of possible haste/fast cast proc. The idea is a bit complex so I won't go further on it right now. Also, I still want to talk about gravity/silence procs as possible for it as well.

The rest sounds alright. You caught my idea on the Reflect spell nicely (I forgot to put the "you still take damage" part in my original post).

Edit: Though Rambus, while a tad hypocritical when criticizing the faith/bravery things ("i don't want bravery to be the fire spell because all these other jobs have fire-based atk+ stuff and i don't want faith to be lightning based because it should be INT/ice based like other abilities that boost magic atk." <-- this confuses me so much) I do agree a bit. Lightning is the DEX stat that is why I thought of Potency (Critical Hit Rate +). As for fire, it was a tough to come up with anything unique. So I naturally went with attack +. This could also be regain but I didn't want to step on the toes of SCH and COR, let alone break the game by over-regain spam.

[Rambus]

Hmm, why didn't I think of the name Gale Spikes... /facepalm, it's so obvious that's what I should've named them now.

I guess I can kind of see what your idea was for them now as being a higher level version of blaze spikes but, i still have to question whether they will either A) not be worth it because they offer no status effect or B) be too powerful. I'm going to re-iterate the haste proc idea. The haste wouldn't be as potent as a normal haste spell, maybe +1% or +2% haste, nor would they stack, the actual spell "haste" would override this haste as it is far more potent. Then what possible benefits does it have? Well, if it procs, it would override slow if you were currently inflicted with it. Perhaps a +1% Fast cast could be tacked on as well (lost if it gets an override from normal haste spell). I can see it's uses against things that cause AoE debuffs and stacks them. Gale Spikes would be useful to have up if you get hit with slow and/or get silenced. Stack Gale Spikes with /SCH and you have a mild hastega that has a slight fast cast boost as well. The idea is a bit complex so I won't go further on it right now. Also, I still want to talk about gravity/silence procs as possible for it as well.

The rest sounds alright. You caught my idea on the Reflect spell nicely (I forgot to put the "you still take damage" part in my original post).

Can make it some haste effect so it is easier for jobs to hit haste/delay cap that are harder to do so, though I am not sure if that manaic is made to ballance out classes (like it should be easier to swing daggers vs a huge 2 handed sword)


Edit: Though Rambus, while a tad hypocritical when criticizing the faith/bravery things ("i don't want bravery to be the fire spell because all these other jobs have fire-based atk+ stuff and i don't want faith to be lightning based because it should be INT/ice based like other abilities that boost magic atk." <-- this confuses me so much) I do agree a bit. Lightning is the DEX stat that is why I thought of Potency (Critical Hit Rate +). As for fire, it was a tough to come up with anything unique. So I naturally went with attack +. This could also be regain but I didn't want to step on the toes of SCH and COR, let alone break the game by over-regain spam.

I was saying there is no need for more attack buffs because there is a lot already.

your magic attack buff should be ice, I think it should follow the logic of the game, thats it. (well his idea but you are agreeing with it)

purple/thunder is for DEX/ACC/crit hit rate and so on for stats
(point blood rage to show the crt hit rate, and that is reflected in what dex does anyway, dex is acc and crits). that is why acc songs, agressor and so on are purple / thunder.

[Kensagaku]

reflect in past FF is a spell when magic is casted on you it is reflected, this means all harmful and support magic and a good way around that was to cast reflect on the mob so you can bounce cures to yourself lol.

if you have to take damage to repel the magic back to caster that is more the lines of "magic counter". this is a trait in FFIX and this is what i called what carbi do. I never understood people trying to label it reflect.

Reason I am stating this is because I am considered about the name and what it does vs past FF games. making it like past FF games would make it imbalanced unless it was long recast with only able to do it with attack spell.

Your attack buff I do not like, the reason is for my magic list post I was making. There is A LOT of fire buffing spells that buff attack and I even think you can call berserk fire support too (mighty strikes, berserk, warcry, restraint, last resort are red in menu). There is also SCH firestorm with stormsurge merits to grant STR.

If you where going to buff magic attack it would have to be ice. There is a lot of ice based buffing that buffs magic attack ( memento mori, ice staff) INT is also considered the “ice” stat. ( see gear, sage etude, and hailstorm)

You're contradicting yourself. You don't like fire as an attack buff but at the same time you don't like faith because it's not ice like most ice spells. Pick one or the other. x_x;

That being said, I could see the Reflect spell being more of a thunder spell, and need to think of another name for it, but I could see it working. And then we could make Faith as an ice spell.

Maybe something like this?

Resonance (Thunder-based) - Creates an aura that reflects a copy of an enemy's spell back at them.
~Notes: With this, the user would still take damage, but reflect the spell as well. This would give two "uses" of the aura before it wears, and it likely would have to have a higher MP cost/cooldown/casting time due to being able to damage the enemy with their own spells. And I think this should be limited to elemental/enfeebling magic; being able to reflect spells like Death seems a bit overpowered, as does being able to reflect magical TP moves.

[Rambus]

You're contradicting yourself. You don't like fire as an attack buff but at the same time you don't like faith because it's not ice like most ice spells. Pick one or the other. x_x;

That being said, I could see the Reflect spell being more of a thunder spell, and need to think of another name for it, but I could see it working. And then we could make Faith as an ice spell.

Maybe something like this?

Resonance (Thunder-based) - Creates an aura that reflects a copy of an enemy's spell back at them.
~Notes: With this, the user would still take damage, but reflect the spell as well. This would give two "uses" of the aura before it wears, and it likely would have to have a higher MP cost/cooldown/casting time due to being able to damage the enemy with their own spells. And I think this should be limited to elemental/enfeebling magic; being able to reflect spells like Death seems a bit overpowered, as does being able to reflect magical TP moves.

fire should be attack, I did not say otherwise , I said I DO NOT WANT more attack support. ( I think there is enough attack support) in the game already.

I think ill harm bard, cor, JA (therefor job balances) too much.

I know this may hurt your logic of adding more different elemental buffs but i think spells like reflect should be light.

I am fine with adding more magic attack support though, my only point for that it should be ice, not thunder.

[Kensagaku]

You do not want. This does not mean it cannot be implemented, nor could it be reasonably useful. Tell me what other buffs you'd find useful from Fire-type spells then? Regain? That would fall under light, as shown with Refresh/Regen, the other restorative over-time spells.

Offer a suggestion if you're going to argue an idea.

[Rambus]

You do not want. This does not mean it cannot be implemented, nor could it be reasonably useful. Tell me what other buffs you'd find useful from Fire-type spells then? Regain? That would fall under light, as shown with Refresh/Regen, the other restorative over-time spells.

Offer a suggestion if you're going to argue an idea.


what will you have a cor do if attack cap easy?
bard will be march only.
why have berserk if attack cap easy?
why have hasso if attack cap/ haste cap?

I said why I do not like it, i think ill cause too much balance issues. likewise the def down support as well.

regain is in the game, and is light, you are correct.

[Kensagaku]

There's not really a "cap" on attack in the long run. The only caps we've hit are the ones in Abyssea, and even at 999 Attack that's not really capped, iirc, that's just as high as the display goes despite there being a higher number.

Technically there would be even more reason to include the other jobs if you can hit the upper areas of attack and still make it useful.

[Rambus]

There's not really a "cap" on attack in the long run. The only caps we've hit are the ones in Abyssea, and even at 999 Attack that's not really capped, iirc, that's just as high as the display goes despite there being a higher number.

Technically there would be even more reason to include the other jobs if you can hit the upper areas of attack and still make it useful.

there is a point where attack does you nothing, I do not mean 999.

I do admit I lack math knowledge to explain it, but I know it exists from watching other people explain it and punching it out.

you need X amount attack over def rating on the mob that corresponds to weapon rank with some str amount.

if im wrong fine have at it with mroe attack buffs, I just think from what I know ill cause too much balance issues.

The attack/fire support (that boosts attack) in the game already:

Valor Minuet
Valor Minuet II
Valor Minuet III
Valor Minuet IV
Valor Minuet V
Sinewy etude (str)
Herculean etude (str)
firestorm (str)
Triumphant roar
Fantod (attack and magic attack, acts like boost)
last resort
berserk
warcry
restriant
boost

this is the list of top my head that supports attack and fire type I guess you can add chaos roll too (has firely look to it when you roll it) but I do not see them colored in my menu, but adds attack never-the-less

[Zyeriis]

Having Bravery wouldn't affect attack caps if it could be overridden by things such as berserk. There are multiple attack buffs yes, Bravery would merely be an additional option to one such buff, that can override or be overridden by another group of attack + buffs. Same goes for the haste proc from gale spikes idea.

As for arguing that specific spells belong on a specific element. I will remind you that there are spells that cause the same status effect but the spells themselves are based in different elements. For example: Flash(Light) and Blind(Dark). Yes they can both be on the enemy at the same time but, they both cause the status effect: Blind. Another example: Cocoon and Reactor Cool, these are both defense boosting blue mage spells. Reactor cool, contrary to it's defense boosting nature is ice based while cocoon is earth based like a normal defense boosting spell.

[Rambus]

Having Bravery wouldn't affect attack caps if it could be overridden by things such as berserk. There are multiple attack buffs yes, Bravery would merely be an additional option to one such buff, that can override or be overridden by another group of attack + buffs. Same goes for the haste proc from gale spikes idea.


hmm I like it better now, plus ill help rngs hit it easier, no one really buffs rng and it is so much harder for them to hit cap.

as for the other part, the element of the spell does not reflect the enfeebling part.

if you are blu you know this too well, when you cast a hybird spell ( damage of different element vs the enfeebling you have 2 checks). Take mind blast, if a mob is thunder immune it may take crap damage from mind blast but it can still be hit with paralysis if it is not immune to ice.

I cannot quote what the blind from flash is because you can have both blind effects on you and flash blind is a huge hit to acc.

Reactor cool main element is for ice spikes, the def up is not good and you can override it with cocoon, SE does not show duel element spells lol.

still everything in the game is reflected on it's base element in some form or anther, can't really think of any expections.

[Zyeriis]

Radiant Breath (Light) vs. Silence (Wind)

Repose (Light) vs. Sleep (Dark)

Radiant Breath (Light) vs. Slow (Earth) vs. Cicimine Discharge (though I do not know what element this is (nor does wiki))

Magnetite Cloud (Earth) vs. Gravity (Wind) vs. Somnolence (Diabolos: Dark)

Ecliptic Growl (Fenrir: Dark) vs. Glittering Ruby (Carbuncle: Light)

Warm-Up (Earth) vs. Feather Barrier (Wind)

Amplification (Water) vs. Dream Shroud (Diabolos: Dark) vs. Memento Mori (Ice) vs. Plenilune Embrace (Light)

Noctoshield (Diabolos: Dark) vs. Phalanx (Light)

To name a few. Yes, a good amount of them are Blue Magic but not all of them.

[Saefinn]

I think it boils down to the simple point: Noodles was basically trying to say we've got buffs for each element, it's quite possible that's the way it was intended, that's reasonable, surely? Everybody's entitled to their own opinion. I was reading it and saw absolutely no reason for people to get on their high horse.

But of course, I can see a reason for this demand - damage spikes for all the way round on the elemental wheel, it's useful for causing other status effects and also useful for catching an enemy's weakness - like we have with helices, weather spells, bar-spells, en-spells and so on.

Maybe meet it half way and say, "have Aquaveil cause poison".

[Rambus]

Radiant Breath (Light) vs. Silence (Wind)

Repose (Light) vs. Sleep (Dark)

Radiant Breath (Light) vs. Slow (Earth) vs. Cicimine Discharge (though I do not know what element this is (nor does wiki))

Magnetite Cloud (Earth) vs. Gravity (Wind) vs. Somnolence (Diabolos: Dark)

Ecliptic Growl (Fenrir: Dark) vs. Glittering Ruby (Carbuncle: Light)

Warm-Up (Earth) vs. Feather Barrier (Wind)

Amplification (Water) vs. Dream Shroud (Diabolos: Dark) vs. Memento Mori (Ice) vs. Plenilune Embrace (Light)

Noctoshield (Diabolos: Dark) vs. Phalanx (Light)

To name a few. Yes, a good amount of them are Blue Magic but not all of them.

repose is a light sleep.
thinking about immunies now, flash is light, not dark, you can't blind a skele witch is immune to dark, but can be flashed blind effect

I explained the hybrids like radiant breath, light is for the damae check, the slow is earth, the silance is still wind.

same with diabolos, the damage is dark but gravity effect is wind.


here is a fun one jetterua is dark but the check to get terror is earth/pertified check.

regardless all of this does not show me wrong in anyway


It's not that i'm a fan but I just felt that specific person was attacked just for having an opinion.
So I resorted to being childish because i'm MLG FFXI.

it is not an opinion, it is wrong information.

do you understand there are other buffs that have elements???? (minne, barthunder are earth, they mingate damage, like stoneskin. then you have shell, protect, phalanx is light) she outirhgt dismissed phalanx because it does not support her view. so now she can be "right" and not admit wrong. couse there is other exmaples but that should be enough to show the unfounded view.

then you have:

or more then one stoneskin/ blink effects while only having one blaze spikes?

you can only have one spike spell on but you can have aquaviel and stoneskin and a spike spell on.

reprisal is a spike spell, you cannot have icespikes and it on.

it is unfounded view.

[Randwolf]

Water Spikes is called Aquaviel
Earth Spikes is called Stoneskin
Wind Spikes is called Blink

The problem with Noodles post is that it reads as "You are asking for something we already have." However, I think as has been pointed out, the term "Spikes," as the OP used it, would have a detrimental effect on the mob trying to attack the person buffed with the Spikes. Thus, if you take the term "Spikes" to imply it can have a detrimental effect on the attacker, the three examples listed by Noodles do not meet that criteria. They would simply be buffs with benefit to the person having them but of no detriment to the mob attacking that person. So, the term "Spikes" seems to be what all the disagreement is over.

The whole matter of whether there is a want/need for new buffs which respond to an attack but are passive otherwise is another discussion.

[Zyeriis]

repose is a light sleep.
thinking about immunies now, flash is light, not dark, you can't blind a skele witch is immune to dark, but can be flashed blind effect

I explained the hybrids like radiant breath, light is for the damae check, the slow is earth, the silance is still wind.

same with diabolos, the damage is dark but gravity effect is wind.


here is a fun one jetterua is dark but the check to get terror is earth/pertified check.

regardless all of this does not show me wrong in anyway

You're losing me Rambus. As hard as it is some times to follow what you're saying with the manner in which you write, you are losing me when you say "repose is light sleep". Isn't that...the point? The same can be applied to "I can't land silence on this enemy because it's wind based and immune to wind" > "I can't land blind on this enemy because it's dark based (skeleton) and immune to dark"

You also skipped Noctoshield (Phalanxga) vs. Phalanx, and the MDB 4 way I listed, not to mention Ecliptic Growl vs. Gliterring Ruby.

[Rambus]

You're losing me Rambus. As hard as it is some times to follow what you're saying with the manner in which you write, you are losing me when you say "repose is light sleep". Isn't that...the point? The same can be applied to "I can't land silence on this enemy because it's wind based and immune to wind" > "I can't land blind on this enemy because it's dark based (skeleton) and immune to dark"

You also skipped Noctoshield (Phalanxga) vs. Phalanx, and the MDB 4 way I listed, not to mention Ecliptic Growl vs. Gliterring Ruby.

i guess you can "get me" with noctoshield, I cannot explain that.

noctoshield phalanx confilits with the real phalanx and w/e is stronger is what stays.
spike spells is w/e used last ( god i hated SMNs doing shiva crap when i was casting reprisal back in the day)

I do not know what MDB 4 is

light and dark have all stat gains, point to staffs and voidstorm, and rings.

though light can be seen as chr + bonuses and affinity to that as well.

I have no idea what light sleep and dark sleep types have to do with buffs though, or the underplaying Argument about how stoneskin, aquaviel and blink do not coincide with spike buffs.

avatars also have wind heal and water heal. I do not know about wind but water has often been affiliate with heals in other games. Maybe summons are an exception? I don’t know.

[Zyeriis]

MDB - Magic Defense Bonus
Note: I meant MAB not MDB, So Magic Attack Bonus not Magic Defense bonus, it just happened that 2 of the ones I mentioned also boost MDB.

4 way - Amplification (Water) vs. Dream Shroud (Diabolos: Dark) vs. Memento Mori (Ice) vs. Plenilune Embrace (Light)

Everything I had in that list caused the same status effects, debuffs or buffs.

You cannot have Repose and Sleep both on the enemy at the same time. They both cause the same status effect: Sleep, which is unaffected by what type of element the spell that casts it is. Which is the point: Just because there's a spell that causes a status effect, and that spell is a specific element does not mean the status effect itself is that element. That way, you're blue magic argument holds less sway. I won't say you have a point with the hybrid blue magic spells but not every blue magic spell I listed is a hybrid spell.

[Rambus]

MDB - Magic Defense Bonus
Note: I meant MAB not MDB, So Magic Attack Bonus not Magic Defense bonus, it just happened that 2 of the ones I mentioned also boost MDB.

4 way - Amplification (Water) vs. Dream Shroud (Diabolos: Dark) vs. Memento Mori (Ice) vs. Plenilune Embrace (Light)

Everything I had in that list caused the same status effects, debuffs or buffs.

You cannot have Repose and Sleep both on the enemy at the same time. They both cause the same status effect: Sleep, which is unaffected by what type of element the spell that casts it is. Which is the point: Just because there's a spell that causes a status effect, and that spell is a specific element does not mean the status effect itself is that element. That way, you're blue magic argument holds less sway. I won't say you have a point with the hybrid blue magic spells but not every blue magic spell I listed is a hybrid spell.

sleep is effected by element,

you cannot sleep (dark) skeles, those eye pets in sandy but can be light slept ( lullaby)

there is sleep I and sleep II effects and if the mob is indifferent to both elements you can resleep the mob with a sleep II effect.

all blu spells as far as im aware are conidered sleep I effect therefore repose/ sleep II will resleep the mob.

there are some hybird stuff i guess but you where not proposing hybrid effects. useally the domant effect repenects the spell like Plenilune Embrace is a cure more so then attack/mab support. sure if you are doing a hybird you have a bit more room to play with to keep with current game logic but it should be traced somehow.

[Zyeriis]

I really don't know to explain it any clearer then: It's the spell itself that gets resisted/immune to due to it's element properties (Sleep the spell gets resisted by skeletons because it's dark in nature) not the status effect. There's non-magic ways to sleep thing such as Shockwave (Great Sword WS) and Pinecone Bomb (Physical Blue Magic) that can sleep these enemies, such as skeletons, because they don't have a particular element because they are not elemental moves. The same logic applies to the fact that spell versions are resisted because the spell itself is based in an element where as the resulting status effect is not. Yes, there are monsters that are completely immune to status effects such as sleep but that is not elemental immunity which is spell based, not status effect based.

[Rambus]

I really don't know to explain it any clearer then: It's the spell itself that gets resisted/immune to due to it's element properties (Sleep the spell gets resisted by skeletons because it's dark in nature) not the status effect. There's non-magic ways to sleep thing such as Shockwave (Great Sword WS) and Pinecone Bomb (Physical Blue Magic) that can sleep these enemies, such as skeletons, because they don't have a particular element because they are not elemental moves. The same logic applies to the fact that spell versions are resisted because the spell itself is based in an element where as the resulting status effect is not. Yes, there are monsters that are completely immune to status effects such as sleep but that is not elemental immunity which is spell based, not status effect based.

those are dark type sleeps actally lol, those sparked my interest in finding other elemental properties to such things. well i think shockwave is dark, i did test pinecone bomb though, def dark, and sleep I effect.

tested both just now, both are dark.

[Rezeak]

Not being funny but i really can't see a use to Slow spikes or w/e

If ya want slow to land on a mob, cast slow?

Even blaze and ice spikes are never really used

I know a few pple that use shock spikes when soloing but thats it.

If you want to invent a new Spike type they would have to be worth using like i dunno Terror Spikes or a Spikes type that helps enmity loss.

[Swords]

Not being funny but i really can't see a use to Slow spikes or w/e

If ya want slow to land on a mob, cast slow?

Even blaze and ice spikes are never really used

I know a few pple that use shock spikes when soloing but thats it.

If you want to invent a new Spike type they would have to be worth using like i dunno Terror Spikes or a Spikes type that helps enmity loss.

Grand majority of people I've seen seem to prefer Ice spikes. Yes you can cast "Paralyze" like you can "Slow", however the potency of "Paralyze" from Ice Spikes is much greater than the spell. I think his general idea insinuated from "Mud Spikes" would be it's "Slow" would be more powerful than the standard "Slow" spell.

[Razushu]

*the following post is an opinion only so chill out*

I kinda agree with Noodles not that I'm saying you guys are wrong. But I always saw the blaze, ice and shock spikes and stoneskin, aquaveil and blink as two sides of the same coin and an elemental wheel of sorts. The fact WHM gets the purely Defensive buffs and BLM gets the offensive ones and RDM gets both as its the middle ground job to me supports this. To me the real reason you can only have 1 spike spell on and all three defensive buffs is the same reason you can only have one enspell one at a time i.e nowhere in the game to my knowledge can we inflict two types of elemental damage at a time not that they aren't a related set of spells

[Rambus]

*the following post is an opinion only so chill out*

I kinda agree with Noodles not that I'm saying you guys are wrong. But I always saw the blaze, ice and shock spikes and stoneskin, aquaveil and blink as two sides of the same coin and an elemental wheel of sorts. The fact WHM gets the purely Defensive buffs and BLM gets the offensive ones and RDM gets both as its the middle ground job to me supports this. To me the real reason you can only have 1 spike spell on and all three defensive buffs is the same reason you can only have one enspell one at a time i.e nowhere in the game to my knowledge can we inflict two types of elemental damage at a time not that they aren't a related set of spells

why does drk get drain spikes and blm does not?

why does PLD get light spikes and whm does not?

why does SCH get 3 spike spells?

so like I said in my other posts explaining elements I really do not understand how people have this view.

skillchains is muli damgic damage, then you have abyssea elements that are multi element.

you can have burn/ choke/ shock on you for exmaple and not the other 3 so why are you able to buff your self with stone (stoneskin), water(aquavail), light(phalanx, shell, protect....), fire (attack support), wind(haste/evade up...), and dark (drain spikes) all at once?

[Razushu]

why does drk get drain spikes and blm does not?

why does PLD get light spikes and whm does not?

why does SCH get 3 spike spells?


so like I said in my other posts explaining elements I really do not understand how people have this view.

skillchains is muli damgic damage, then you have abyssea elements that are multi element.

you can have burn/ choke/ shock on you for exmaple and not the other 3 so why are you able to buff your self with stone (stoneskin), water(aquavail), light(phalanx, shell, protect....), fire (attack support), wind(haste/evade up...), and dark (drain spikes) all at once?

reprisal and dread spikes came after the what I and clearly others share this opinion could refer to as the elemental wheel of buffs and as such were probably just buff to the respective jobs and not part 2 of the elemental spikes spell addition Whm doesn't get reprisal because it was implemented for PLD same with drk and blm and SCH gets the 3 spikes as well as the 3 defensive buffs meaning both "middle mages" get both sides of the coin so to speak adding to my view that these six could be a family set and reprisal, dread spikes, phalanx and any other random spell you want to mention are just spells and not linked. plus light and dark are never really linked to the other six elements they're kind of a seperate system as they're realted to but not fully linked to the other six.

Anyway your inital premise of theres why are there not spikes for every element? could be asked as why are there not elementally inspired buffs (Stoneskin, BLink, Aquaveil) for all elements the simplest answer is they complete a family of spells with the spikes

[Zyeriis]

Still fail to see how that is a decent enough reason (based upon opinion) to deny the idea of adding 3 new "true" spike spells for the elements that lack them. Same for the "opposite side of the coin" by adding fire/lightning/ice spells to coincide with ss/blink/aquaveil. You can deny dread spikes and reprisal all you want for whatever reason you fancy ("they don't count! they were added later!" > yes...they added extra spike spells at a later time...wait...thats the idea) but it is still an empty reason.

The most legitimate reasons I've seen so far are "over-powered possibly" or "useless possibly" which are true about anything plausibly addable to the game.

[Rambus]

reprisal and dread spikes came after the what I and clearly others share this opinion could refer to as the elemental wheel of buffs and as such were probably just buff to the respective jobs and not part 2 of the elemental spikes spell addition Whm doesn't get reprisal because it was implemented for PLD same with drk and blm and SCH gets the 3 spikes as well as the 3 defensive buffs meaning both "middle mages" get both sides of the coin so to speak adding to my view that these six could be a family set and reprisal, dread spikes, phalanx and any other random spell you want to mention are just spells and not linked. plus light and dark are never really linked to the other six elements they're kind of a seperate system as they're realted to but not fully linked to the other six.

Anyway your inital premise of theres why are there not spikes for every element? could be asked as why are there not elementally inspired buffs (Stoneskin, BLink, Aquaveil) for all elements the simplest answer is they complete a family of spells with the spikes

They are not in the family of spikes because they do not override eachother.
Thery are not in the same family because they do not do the same fuction.

you can have blink, stoneskin, and aquavail on with one of the spike spells.

explain how blink stoneskin and aquavail is part of this "buff family" when you can have all 3 at once.

you only get 1 en effect, one covers each element.

how come in the past they only have fire thunder and ice spikes, later came out with light spikes then later with drain spikes?

it means they are missing elements in the past and still missing them.

they have buffs allined to other elements, it is called shell, protect, phalanx, bard songs, bar spells, so on.


Still fail to see how that is a decent enough reason (based upon opinion) to deny the idea of adding 3 new "true" spike spells for the elements that lack them.

it doesn't that is why i said it was irrelevant.

[Razushu]

Still fail to see how that is a decent enough reason (based upon opinion) to deny the idea of adding 3 new "true" spike spells for the elements that lack them. Same for the "opposite side of the coin" by adding fire/lightning/ice spells to coincide with ss/blink/aquaveil. You can deny dread spikes and reprisal all you want for whatever reason you fancy ("they don't count! they were added later!" > yes...they added extra spike spells at a later time...wait...thats the idea) but it is still an empty reason.


The most legitimate reasons I've seen so far are "over-powered possibly" or "useless possibly" which are true about anything plausibly addable to the game.

Well this sucks having to reply twice GD PC but here I go.

To sum up my theory

elemental wheel buffs (an already complete set)

blaze/ice/shock spikes - offensive
Aquaveil/SS/blink - defensive

evidence for this

BLM offensive mage - offensive buffs
WHM defensive support mage - defensive buffs
RDM mixed mage - both buffs

both sides come together as a set i.e you get one from a side you get the other two.
which pokes a hole in the link between these spells and dread spikes/reprisal as no job that gets the other spikes get these, although it is possible that they added these two to turn 6 into 8 elemental buff spells although Phalanx is probably a better fit lol.
Also theres the fact the 6 celestial elements function somewhat independantly of dark/light so it's probable that a complete set of elemental buffs be they spikes or not would be 6 spells not 8 anyway (see ninjutsu elemental wheel and barspells).

[Zyeriis]

Well this sucks having to reply twice GD PC but here I go.

To sum up my theory

elemental wheel buffs (an already complete set)

blaze/ice/shock spikes - offensive
Aquaveil/SS/blink - defensive

evidence for this

BLM offensive mage - offensive buffs
WHM defensive support mage - defensive buffs
RDM mixed mage - both buffs

both sides come together as a set i.e you get one from a side you get the other two.
which pokes a hole in the link between these spells and dread spikes/reprisal as no job that gets the other spikes get these, although it is possible that they added these two to turn 6 into 8 elemental buff spells although Phalanx is probably a better fit lol.
Also theres the fact the 6 celestial elements function somewhat independantly of dark/light so it's probable that a complete set of elemental buffs be they spikes or not would be 6 spells not 8 anyway (see ninjutsu elemental wheel and barspells).

I never said that I also did not view the current spells as complementing each other. I proposed an idea to increase the ranges of them, wherein that theory is eliminated. SE themselves lowered that theory's likeliness when they added Scholar. Stoneskin, Blink, and Aquaveil all work with Accession while spike spells do not. You can also have stoneskin, blink, and aquaveil up at the same time while you may only have 1 spike spell-type (this includes reprisal and dread spikes) up at any given time. The spike spells also deal damage but offer no self-relevant buffs, they only damage the enemy in one way or another. Yes, that is the argument of yours that Stoneskin and the like are the defensive versions but, again, this is not even close to being remotely reason enough to deny the idea of expanding each side of this "coin theory".

[Razushu]

They are not in the family of spikes because they do not override eachother.
Thery are not in the same family because they do not do the same fuction.

you can have blink, stoneskin, and aquavail on with one of the spike spells.

explain how blink stoneskin and aquavail is part of this "buff family" when you can have all 3 at once.

you only get 1 en effect, one covers each element.

how come in the past they only have fire thunder and ice spikes, later came out with light spikes then later with drain spikes?

it means they are missing elements in the past and still missing them.

they have buffs allined to other elements, it is called shell, protect, phalanx, bard songs, bar spells, so on.

same reason you can only have 1 enspell or elemental bar spell on SE decided they only wanted us to have one on at a time.

what about endark and enlight?
wheres dark:ichi and light:ichi?
Can't quite see your point here elemental spell sets come in 6 or 8. enspells 8 ninjutsu 6
Changes absolutely nothing about my point

blaze/ice/shock spikes + aquaveil/SS/blink = 6
or
blaze/ice/shock spikes + aquaveil/SS/blink +dreadspikes/reprisal(or Phalanx) = 8

either way they could be and have been by others here as a complete set

[Freebytes]

Blaze Spikes / Ice Spikes / Shock Spikes are offensive.
Aquaveil / Stoneskin / Blink are defensive.

Nonetheless, there is a possibility of the original suggestion of the op. That is, to add corresponding buffs for each of the previously offensive elements. Therefore, you can have your Aqua Spikes, Mud Spikes, and whatever you called the air spikes, but you would also need to make a defensive set for Fire, Ice, and Thunder. This would resolve this discrepancy, i.e., you can have Flame which would increase your defense against paralyze, Snow Sheer which would provide an increase to spells cast while engaged, and Thunder Cloud which would decrease your HP by 2 while increasing your MP by 1 while in effect. These are just examples of the alternate way of looking at the possibility of more spikes, of course.

[Razushu]

I never said that I also did not view the current spells as complementing each other. I proposed an idea to increase the ranges of them, wherein that theory is eliminated. SE themselves lowered that theory's likeliness when they added Scholar. Stoneskin, Blink, and Aquaveil all work with Accession while spike spells do not. You can also have stoneskin, blink, and aquaveil up at the same time while you may only have 1 spike spell-type (this includes reprisal and dread spikes) up at any given time. The spike spells also deal damage but offer no self-relevant buffs, they only damage the enemy in one way or another. Yes, that is the argument of yours that Stoneskin and the like are the defensive versions but, again, this is not even close to being remotely reason enough to deny the idea of expanding each side of this "coin theory".

SCH getting them changes nothing really they got them VERY recently and it doesn't mean there not getting the other 3.
Seems to be the the most likely reason for the limit to 1 spikes or en spell at a time would be they deal damage.
Lots of things don't work with accession making that point moot.
they may expand the set but they're doesn't really seem to be a need imho.

[Rambus]

Well this sucks having to reply twice GD PC but here I go.

To sum up my theory

elemental wheel buffs (an already complete set)

blaze/ice/shock spikes - offensive
Aquaveil/SS/blink - defensive

evidence for this

BLM offensive mage - offensive buffs
WHM defensive support mage - defensive buffs
RDM mixed mage - both buffs

both sides come together as a set i.e you get one from a side you get the other two.
which pokes a hole in the link between these spells and dread spikes/reprisal as no job that gets the other spikes get these, although it is possible that they added these two to turn 6 into 8 elemental buff spells although Phalanx is probably a better fit lol.
Also theres the fact the 6 celestial elements function somewhat independantly of dark/light so it's probable that a complete set of elemental buffs be they spikes or not would be 6 spells not 8 anyway (see ninjutsu elemental wheel and barspells).

haste? shell? protect? phalanx? light spikes? dark spikes?

unfounded

and whm able to buff people with 2 different stoneskins? explain that how that supports your view.

i guess we need 7 other elements for stun too.

[Razushu]

haste? shell? protect? phalanx? light spikes? dark spikes?

unfounded

and whm able to buff people with 2 different stoneskins? explain that how that supports your view.

i guess we need 7 other elements for stun too.

SENSE make some PLEASE!!!

I'm not talking about haste protect and shell etc. yeah we get it theres eight elements and many spells are linked to them my point is that sometimes in this games theres what we could call "families" of spells that are linked sometimes they all share an element i.e Cures sometimes theres 1 for each element i.e bars en-s. your point here is both rambling and irrelevant.

I'm arguing the fact that the six spells I keep refering to are a set.

WHM can't cast Stoneskin on anyone let alone 2 types this is about the SPELL stoneskin you know the one macroed as /ma "Stoneskin" <me> not the stonskin effect so I fail to see how cureskin and use of acession are relevant to this.

stun??????????????? where the hell did this come from? this is the first mention of stun in this thread as far as I can see.

[Rambus]

SENSE make some PLEASE!!!

I'm not talking about haste protect and shell etc. yeah we get it theres eight elements and many spells are linked to them my point is that sometimes in this games theres what we could call "families" of spells that are linked sometimes they all share an element i.e Cures sometimes theres 1 for each element i.e bars en-s. your point here is both rambling and irrelevant.

I'm arguing the fact that the six spells I keep refering to are a set.

WHM can't cast Stoneskin on anyone let alone 2 types this is about the SPELL stoneskin you know the one macroed as /ma "Stoneskin" <me> not the stonskin effect so I fail to see how cureskin and use of acession are relevant to this.

stun??????????????? where the hell did this come from? this is the first mention of stun in this thread as far as I can see.

you can have spikes and stoneskin/aquaviel/blink on so they are not the same family.

I was killing your argument that whm only got defensive buffs, haste is for offence.
Haste vs blink does not suit your theory so you are ignoring it.

afflatus solace+ cure is a stun effect. whm sub sch to give stoneskin to others.
whm have 2 different stoneskin effects.

there is only one stun element, why does everything need to hold all 8 elements?

[Karbuncle]

There will never be Mud-Spikes (Stupid idea), Water Spikes (Even dumber), or Wind Spikes (the fk?) because they're all terrible ideas and the first post is right.

The basic Core Element Spells i have always considered as "Spike Chain" were "Blaze Spikes" "Shock Spikes" "Ice Spikes", "Blink" "Stoneskin" "Aquaviel".

To further show how right the first poster was.

Fire Elemental - Casts Blazespikes/Enfire
Water Elemental - Casts Aquaviel/Enwater
Thunder Elemental - Casts Shock Spokes/Enthunder
Earth Elemental - Casts Stoneskin/Enstone
Wind Elemental - Casts Blink/Enaero
Ice Elemental - Casts Icespikes/Enblizzard.

Do you see how Each Elemental uses its "spikes" line buff? This is because thats how SE envisioned it. Fire/Ice/Lightning = Offensive "Spikes". Earth/wind/water = Defensive Buffs For only these 6 spells. This is proof. You can deny it all you want, SE intended for those 6 spells to be what you are calling "spikes". This is your proof, Stop debating it. wind Elementals dont Haste themselves, Etc. those arguments are Stupid and Irrelevant and bring this discussion to a whole new level of stupid.

The above buffs are the only buffs those Elementals cast on themselves. Stop and look at the connection, Your point is now invalid.



I won't touch, Dread Spikes seems to have been added as a far far afterthought nearly 6 years later to give DRKs a nice spell. They have nothing to do with the 6-elemental Spell Line buffs.








HOWEVER

If we were going to add "Spikes" to each of those, We would also, TO MAINTAIN EQUIVALENCE, add "buffs" to Fire/Lightning/Ice element. So what would they be? Not they can't be offensive in any way. they need to be Defensive Buffs.

Fire? Can't think of anything :|
Ice? Would think "ice Shield" maybe a Stone-skin for Magic.
Thunder? Can't think of Anything :|

[Rambus]

light elementals cast haste (wind spell) and don't cast light spikes reprisal no en light

newer dark elemetals use dread spikes and have no en dark

so what is your point? they are not the same famliy of buffs because you can have "Blink" "Stoneskin" "Aquaviel". with a spike spell on.

why are you ingoring these points because it does not suit your view?

and there is fire, thunder, and water buffs.


I think some don't grasp the concept of "Spikes" as a general game term, not exclusively pertaining to FFXI's spike spells.

Spike terms in games, originated from items like Spike breastplate or spiked shield. Any time you tried to attack someone with such armor, you stood a decent chance of being impaled or injured by the spikes if they were to bash or tackle you. So in game terms, there is no such thing as a defensive "Spikes" unless it retaliates with damage in some way.

I don't think I would mind seeing new forms of spike spells, but I'm not sure they would be practical where many of the newer NM's have become increasingly resistant or immune to debuffs.

this is more reason they are not spikes.

[Razushu]

you can have spikes and stoneskin/aquaviel/blink on so they are not the same family.

I was killing your argument that whm only got defensive buffs, haste is for offence.
Haste vs blink does not suit your theory so you are ignoring it.

afflatus solace+ cure is a stun effect. whm sub sch to give stoneskin to others.
whm have 2 different stoneskin effects.

there is only one stun element, why does everything need to hold all 8 elements?

when I said defensive buffs I was refering to the 3 we keep coming back to lol.
As in WHM is the defensive/support mage so of this family of spells they shall have the defensive side

the only thing you're killing is my patience.
You can have blaze spikes and haste too your point is as irrelevant here as ever.
I'm not ignoring it I'm aware it's there I use it often as both my jobs lol.
Your point of there being many spells per element still lacks.... well a point I'm aware of this fact, everyone who gets past level 10 is probably aware of this fact, that doesn't stop certain spells from falling into subgroupings together within this system.

Cure + stun?

Again a /ja that adds a mini stoneskin effect and a ja that augments certain spells when used hold no relevance here we're discussing the possiblity/probabilty that blaze/ice/shockspikes and aquaveil/stoneskin/blink form a elemental wheel of buffs.

back to stun again... there is only one stun spell and it has a specific effect for your attempt at comparision to work here we'd need 5/7 other spells of the other elements that each did a different thing

[Karbuncle]

light elementals cast haste and don't cast light spikes reprisal no en light

newer dark elemetals use dread spikes and have no en dark

so what is your point? they are not the same famliy of buffs because you can have "Blink" "Stoneskin" "Aquaviel". with a spike spell on.

why are you ingoring these points because it does not suit your view?

and there is fire, thunder, and water buffs.



this is more reason they are not spikes.


Light Elementals Are Completely Unique. They also cast Blink, Stoneskin, and Aquaviel, a long with Haste, Protect and shell. They are Unique elementals and do not follow the basic core concepts of the 6 Elementals. Being Wind, Water, thunder, Earth, Fire, Ice

Everyone but you can apparently see that Blink/Stoneskin/Aquaviel and Blaze/Shock/Ice Spikes follow an Elemental "buff" line (Used by Elementals themselves) that consist of "3 Offensive" and "3 Deffensive" elemental buffs. Unique to Each Particular Element.

Light/Dark Elementals are completely unique in themselves.

[Rambus]

Light Elementals Are Completely Unique. They also cast Blink, Stoneskin, and Aquaviel, a long with Haste, Protect and shell. They are Unique elementals and do not follow the basic core concepts of the 6 Elementals. Being Wind, Water, thunder, Earth, Fire, Ice

Everyone but you can apparently see that Blink/Stoneskin/Aquaviel and Blaze/Shock/Ice Spikes follow an Elemental "buff" line (Used by Elementals themselves) that consist of "3 Offensive" and "3 Deffensive" elemental buffs. Unique to Each Particular Element.

Light/Dark Elementals are completely unique in themselves. .

abyssea elements are fusion types, seem to relfect on level 2 scs, i was not talking about abyssea.

"i want to agure the 6 elements and forget light and dark because it suits my view"
you do not grasp what a spike concepts is, see the guy i quoted from page 1.

ok

unfounded

[Saefinn]

Well, if we're going by that then I guess 'dread' just adds a dark element.

Fire - Blaze Spikes
Water - Aquaveil
Thunder - Shock Spikes
Ice - Ice Spikes
Stone - Stoneskin
Air - Blink
Dark - Dread Spikes (/Endark), Dark Knight exclusive.

All we'd need is a Light Element version for PLD, like you get Enlight. A buff - perhaps something that absorbs enfeebles or offers a buff PLD's need - as a PLD10, I wouldn't really be able to comment on what a PLD needs right now, but if you've got a buff that'll absorb silence, sleep, dispel, paralysis and stun on a Paladin, as I can image them being annoying enfeebles for a PLD tank that perhaps hinders some of their ability to sustain hate - maybe a PLD could comment. And because it would wear once it has absorbed its limit and would be PLD exclusive it wouldn't be making bar-spells or -na spells redundant either.

I understand the Dread Spikes was added much later and has nothing to do with the original set, other than to work as an attempt to add to Dark Knight's spell casting side of things, but I think logically speaking, after dread spikes you need a PLD exclusive light elemental buff that works to the same nature as other spells just to remain balanced.

Or make a set of buffs and a set of spikes for each element as just said. It's working out how to do it. I guess my PLD version of spikes would be one,

[Karbuncle]

abyssea elements are fusion types, seem to relfect on level 2 scs, i was not talking about abyssea.

"i want to agure the 6 elements and forget light and dark because it suits my view"

ok

unfounded

Its because Light and Dark Elementals Are Fundamentally Different. Than the 6 Core-element Types. And i already addressed your LIght Elemental. Its a WHM by class. It appears to cast all WHM based buffs on itself to an Extent. Where as the DRK elemental appears to be a DRK/BLM type. and as such has no buffs.

The other 6 Elementals Appear to follow now job-Specific Casting Type. Able to cast their own Unique Buffs on themselves (Aquav/Blink/Stonesk/spikes). Is what I'm trying to convey.

Are you purposefully being thick headed just so people lose their temper at you and eventually get banned from here because they eventually snap and go crazy toward you?

Its working if you are.

Edit: (For Rambus)Dread Spikes was added nearly 6 years after the Original Elemental Buffs. They are irrelevant. They have nothing to do with the Original 6 Elemental Buffs Specific to the Elemental Family Enemies. They are, For lack of better words, an Uncreative name given to a spell designed to make Dark Knights recover HP lost from hate/Souleater.

This is proven by how Original-area Dark Element Enemies do not have Access to said spell, Only Abyssea-Dwelling Elementals do. DRK mobs get it, the Dark-Elemental Does not. As such is it not a Core-Elemental Buff of the 6 Elementals (Light/Dark Excluded).

(For Guy above me)
If we were going down that Path, Light would require a Unique Buff. Since Dark filled another "Spikes", Light would need a "Buff" to balance the 8 Elements instead of the 6. So maybe Reflect? Seems Light-Based. its a "Defensive" buff to say.

[Razushu]

abyssea elements are fusion types, seem to relfect on level 2 scs, i was not talking about abyssea.

"i want to agure the 6 elements and forget light and dark because it suits my view"
you do not grasp what a spike concepts is, see the guy i quoted from page 1.

ok

unfounded

who cares what "spikes" are in other games this is FFXI so what spikes are here is the only thing that matters.
For someone who throws around the accusation of ignoring points you're very guilty of it yourself

[Karbuncle]

who cares what "spikes" are in other games this is FFXI so what spikes are here is the only thing that matters.
For someone who throws around the accusation of ignoring points you're very guilty of it yourself

He's at the stage in a fight when he realizes he's wrong. But he's too proud to admit it. Now we'll argue for 8 pages until we get more people to support us. Then He'll call us all Elitists or say he's being Ignored.

It happens in every thread someone argues with him.

[Rambus]

Its because Light and Dark Elementals Are Fundamentally Different. Than the 6 Core-element Types. And i already addressed your LIght Elemental. Its a WHM by class. It appears to cast all WHM based buffs on itself to an Extent. Where as the DRK elemental appears to be a DRK/BLM type. and as such has no buffs.

The other 6 Elementals Appear to follow now job-Specific Casting Type. Able to cast their own Unique Buffs on themselves (Aquav/Blink/Stonesk/spikes). Is what I'm trying to convey.

Are you purposefully being thick headed just so people lose their temper at you and eventually get banned from here because they eventually snap and go crazy toward you?

Its working if you are.

are you saying drk/blm? as is /blm sub level? that is wrong.
WG elementals cast dread spikes and PC elementals cast all abs spells ( not sure of new ones prob didnt update it) with sleepga II. they also use a thunder base spell stun.

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).] you can only have one spike spell on you ( inclines light/reprisal and dark/dread spikes) if they where meant to be in the same family like bars, weather, en spells, with stoneskin aquavail and blink they would not be able to stack. haste is wind spell but light elementals cast it and not wind, so that alone should reflect elementals cannot be used to reflect buff lines of spells.

[Razushu]

He's at the stage in a fight when he realizes he's wrong. But he's too proud to admit it. Now we'll argue for 8 pages until we get more people to support us. Then He'll call us all Elitists or say he's being Ignored.

It happens in every thread someone argues with him.

LOL I hate that stage in an argument it's the worst feeling in the world.

[Razushu]

are you saying drk/blm? as is /blm sub level? that is wrong.
WG elementals cast dread spikes and PC elementals cast all abs spells ( not sure of new ones prob didnt update it) with sleepga II. they also use a thunder base spell stun.

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).] you can only have one spike spell on you ( inclines light/reprisal and dark/dread spikes) if they where meant to be in the same family like bars, weather, en spells, with stoneskin aquavail and blink they would not be able to stack. haste is wind spell but light elementals cast it and not wind, so that alone should reflect elementals cannot be used to reflect buff lines of spells.

Dude light and dark elementals function differently from the other six

[Karbuncle]

are you saying drk/blm? as is /blm sub level? that is wrong.
WG elementals cast dread spikes and PC elemetnals cast all abs spells ( not sure of new ones prob didnt update it) with sleepga II. they also use a thunder base spell stun.

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).] you can only have one spike spell on you ( inclines light/reprisal and dark/dread spikes) if they where ment to be in the same family like bars, weather, en spells, with stoneskin aquavail and blink they would not be able to stack. haste is wind spell but light elementals cast it and not wind, so that alone should reflect elementals cannot be used to reflect buff lines of spells.



Please, Listen Carefully.

There Are Six Core Elements in Vana'Diel. They are. Fire, Water, Thunder, Earth, Wind, and Ice. These Elements are Represented throughout Early Vana'diel as Elementals. Each Elemental gets its own Unique Buff Specific to its Element. Light and Dark Elementals themselves are Unique Opposing Elements. And until recently neither had a Unique buff. Light Elementals Borrowed buffs from the "Defensive" buff Elementals, Including amongst other things Blink, Stoneskin, and Aquaviel. Now, These Key Elemental buffs are:

Wind = Blink
Ice = Ice Spikes
Fire = Blaze Spikes
Thunder = Shock Spikes
Earth = Stoneskin
Water = Aquaviel

These Unique Spells have been adapted to be considered the "Elemental buff" line of Spells. Spells Specific to core Elements of the Elemental Family. They are in Balance with eachother, Containing Three Offensive Buffs, and Three Defensive buffs.

Now, Later in the life off FFXI, Nearly 6-7 Years into the Game. Spells like Dread Spikes Were added. To keep with the game, This Spell was not added to the Original Elements of the FFXI World. However, Post a Certain point (WoTG, Abyssea) They were Added to Dark Elementals, Likely just to make them harder and give them a Buff so they didn't feel left out.
----------------------------------------------------------


Now to Really Repeat this, Every spell in the game has an Element, But its not Relevant to the 6 Core Elemental Buffs. Spikes/Stonesking/etc. They are a Different Series. Think of them like this

you have a Spell series, lets say "Fire". They are
"Fire"
"Fire II"
"Fire III"
"Fire IV"
"Fire V"

These are the "Fire" Line of Spells. They are Spells that fall into the Category "Single Target "Fire" Spells". You have other Spells similar to this though, like "Firaga". But they are Different, and are not "Single Target Fire Spells". They may appear Similar. But one is "Fire" the other is "Flare" or "Firaga". While similar in type, are different in some ways. "Flare" is an "Ancient Magic" like "Freeze" its its own unique category of spell., while "Firaga" is Area of Effect, like "Thundaga, Diaga, etc". Do you see the Correlation yet? How spells, though seemingly of the same type (I.e haste/blink) fall under different categories?


In the same way, the "elemental Buffs" are their own tier of "Spells". think of them not like "All buffs" think of them as "Core Elemental Buffs" they are

"Blink"
"Stoneskin"
"Aqauveil"
"Shock Spikes"
"Blaze Spikes"
"Ice Spikes".

These are all considered "Elemental Buffs". not like the "Fire" Spell example, there are other buffs, for instance, "Wind" has "Haste", But its not a Part of the "Elemental Buff" Series. Its a Different Spell. Its shown by the fact Wind Elementals do not cast Said Spell on themselves.

Its not a Difficult concept to Grasp. Dread Spikes was added years after these Core Elemental Buffs, as Such is an Irrelevant Spell. If it were to become Relevant, We would also need to see a Light-based-Defensive Buff Unique to Light-elemental in order for a True Balance to be maintained. SE probably thought "Light Elementals can cast Pro/Shell/etc, but dark Elemental is the only one of the 8 who cannot cast a buff, we added that DRK spell Dread Spikes, Lets give it to them in Later zones".

Dread Spikes was at best an uncreative name given to a spell for DRKs, It had/has nothing to do with the 6 Elemental Buffs, They simply share a similar naming pattern. but it in itself, Regardless of being used later on, Is its own unique line of Buffs, separate form the "Elemental Buff" Series above.

Please, really try to understand what I'm saying. I'm really trying to explain it best i can.

[Rambus]

light and dark are elements, stop forgetting them because it suits your agurment.

and there is plenty of light, dark, fire, earth, water, wind, ice, thunder buffs.

there is also meny forms of stoneskin and blink and yet one fire spikes? why?

but..but .. it was not like that in RoZ omg! what you think this thread is about? completing the line

[Karbuncle]

light and dark are elements, stop forgetting them because it suits your agurment.

I'm not Forgetting them. I've Addressed them, You just don't get it.

Their "A.I" Is fundamentally different from The Other 6 Elementals. I'll try to make this as kindergarten as possible.

Think of "Light and Dark elementals" like Mage Quadavs. They have a different A.I than say, a Warrior Quadav. Now think of the "6 Elementals" as "Warrior Quadavs".

"Warrior Quadavs" Cast no spells, and immediately enter Melee Range, while "Mage Quadavs" stand out of Melee range until 75% HP, they also Nuke, or Buff themselves.

while Similar Families, They are Fundamnetally different in both A.I and behavior. The Same can be said for Light/Dark Elementals, and the 6 Basic Element-Elementals.

They are of the same Family, but have different A.I/behavior patterns.

[Karbuncle]

no my good sir. You have lost the argument, but your pride does not allow you to Admit it. You are the one who does not understand. Your best argument is quoting Swords from page 1, and Even I've debunked that.

Now you're making 1-liner Responses and Ignoring my very long very informative post about 3 replies up on the Difference between "Things that seem the same" and "Things that fall into the same Category". Which completely invalidates all your arguments up to this point.

[Saefinn]

Karb,

Reflect would work. Or some kind of enfeeble barrier. Whatever a PLD would most benefit from without being game breaking.

Also, Rambus,

I think the issue might be semantics. 'Spikes' is perhaps the easiest term to use to refer to a line of elemental based spells that hasn't been given a specific name. If Aquaveil, Stoneskin and Blink were actually spikes SE would have called them so, they can't call a set of what's half spikes, half buffs, spikes, because as already established, they're not spikes. What's being argued is not that they're spikes by any kind of strict definition, but they belong to the same line of spells people are calling 'spikes' because it's a simple collective term that ought to theoretically flow the conversation better, even if inaccurate, but it's not an uncommon use of language.


As for Dark/Light, they are elements, yes, and DRK gets dread spikes. This only creates argument for PLD to get their own exclusive spell in the same line of magic. Who knows, they probably didn't think they needed to include dark and light elements at first because they either couldn't think what to do with it or couldn't find a use for them - or at least not until later levels (would dread spikes be a suitable level 30 spell?). If they were making up JUST elemental spikes, they would have done the whole wheel, it seems it was intentional to not do the whole wheel in just spikes, but only half of it, leaving the other half to offer resistance.

[Rambus]

no my good sir. You have lost the argument, but your pride does not allow you to Admit it. You are the one who does not understand. Your best argument is quoting Swords from page 1, and Even I've debunked that.

Now you're making 1-liner Responses and Ignoring my very long very informative post about 3 replies up on the Difference between "Things that seem the same" and "Things that fall into the same Category". Which completely invalidates all your arguments up to this point.

that is your view, be honest i am right, it is very simple, you can only have one spike effect on you.

stoneskin blink and aquaviel stack on spikes

then there is this:

I think some don't grasp the concept of "Spikes" as a general game term, not exclusively pertaining to FFXI's spike spells.

Spike terms in games, originated from items like Spike breastplate or spiked shield. Any time you tried to attack someone with such armor, you stood a decent chance of being impaled or injured by the spikes if they were to bash or tackle you. So in game terms, there is no such thing as a defensive "Spikes" unless it retaliates with damage in some way. I don't think I would mind seeing new forms of spike spells, but I'm not sure they would be practical where many of the newer NM's have become increasingly resistant or immune to debuffs.

you are in your own world, i lost agurment, lol ok

[Karbuncle]

Again, Your best Argument is Quoting Swords. Good job. you're best debate is Semantics over what Spikes means.

To other guy:
Yeah, Reflect Wouldn't be awful. If the Accuracy was based on the PLDs Spell, most nukes would resist/suck so its not too broken.

Edit: Sorry if my responses slow, In Limbus. Thanks

[Rambus]

I am going to explain this as slow as i can:

when you cast reprisal you gain it's effect, then you have shiva or sub blm or w/e and cast ice spikes it overdies reprisal
so reprisal is light spikes, like how you can only have one en spell on your slef, it is the same line of spells.

same with shock spikes or any form of spikes spell you can only have one on yourself

then....:
stoneskin blink and aquaviel stack on spikes

there is muli forms of stoneskin and blink, you also have a different wind buff called haste.

Quoting him is not my strongest agurement, this point is.

i do not know why you bring in Semantics, i think that is what you are trying to do

it is illogical to have 5-7 forms of stoneskin, 4-6 forms of blink, 3 forms of ice spikes, 2 forms of thunder spikes, 1 form of aquavail and 1 form of fire spikes and say they are in the same family.

you have en spells, and en II spells they are the same family

[Karbuncle]

Yah, You just don't get it. You really don't. I'm done arguing with you. [Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]

Edit: I should probably note so you stop wasting your time. You are now the first addition to my Block list! yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay!

Party!

*Ceremonial Music*
*Cheesy Inspirational music*

[Saefinn]

that is your view, be honest i am right, it is very simple, you can only have one spike effect on you.

stoneskin blink and aquaviel stack on spikes

then there is this:


you are in your own world, i lost agurment, lol ok

To be fair. Aquaveil/Stoneskin/Blink are stackable because stacking them offers no conflict because their elements aren't effecting any damage dealt to the enemy. The reason spikes don't stack is because you can't have two elements in effect at once, the same with en-spells and the same with weather spells. It doesn't mean they're to be treated as a separate line of spells, it was already suggested that they've been split to be half offensive, half defensive. So naturally, there's going to be a few differences. It also makes sense in that SE hasn't done any other spikes, when logically, if their line of spells were JUST spikes, then we'd see them for each element, like with helices. It would appear that SE went another way with that one. I know people keep using 'spikes' to umbrella blink/aquaveil/stoneskin and the spikes spells, but as I've said, it's just semantics, so I think defining 'spikes' is necessary to the conversation, it's just down to how language sometimes works - a term is used to umbrella something outside of its definition for ease of conversation, it has already been stated what is being talked about, so ideally, people ought to be able to understand what is meant - or at least I didn't have any difficulty understanding when I entered this thread.


But what it should really be about is: should SE offer fire/thunder/ice based defensive spells and should they offer water/earth/air offensive spikes? I think as said, it ought work both ways.

[Rambus]

Yah, You just don't get it. You really don't.

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]

Enjoy living in your own crazy knowledge-less imaginary world where you can never be wrong.

I would not derail this with you to show how illogical you are if i was wrong.

you do understand bars, songs etc etc have elements right?

how come there is 8 en spells but 3 spikes?

etc etc, so illogical and unfounded claim.

it was also illrevlent to the thread, noodles first post, should never been stated to wind up here.


To be fair. Aquaveil/Stoneskin/Blink are stackable because stacking them offers no conflict because their elements aren't effecting any damage dealt to the enemy.

more reason they are not "spike family"


But what it should really be about is: should SE offer fire/thunder/ice based defensive spells and should they offer water/earth/air offensive spikes? I think as said, it ought work both ways.

already exists

[Swords]

I think this has gone past the point of a debate on ideas for potential spikes spells, but rather become a "I'm right, your wrong. My ideas are brilliant, yours are dumb" debate, at least that's kind of what it seems to have turned into.

Rambus my explanation of spikes spells was entirely for clarification, which I kind of hoped would make them think it was simply just a matter of differing opinions on what exactally counts as a spike spell and resolve the dispute.

It doesn't really matter wether or not Blink, Stoneskin, and Aquaviel were intended as a "spike" spell in SE's eyes, they are there and avaliable for use. It doesn't really matter if we really do need more spike spells or not. Nothing wrong with wishful thinking or throwing new ideas out there to try and make the game more interesting, it's not like the idea was game breaking after all.

[Karbuncle]

But what it should really be about is: should SE offer fire/thunder/ice based defensive spells and should they offer water/earth/air offensive spikes? I think as said, it ought work both ways.

i wouldn't be opposed to this. Its just difficult giving meaningful non-damaging buffs to Thunder, Fire, and ice spells. The "wind/etc Spikes" would be simple, its the other side of the Balance that would be difficult.

For instance, Ice could add a Resistance to magic, but we have shell for that. However, Defensive buffs are hard to imagine when just about everything is covered. Though it could become "Offensive Self-buffs", but also the "Wind/Water/Earth" Spikes could do Defensive things. Example.

"Earth Spikes" = Does no Damage. inflicts Enemy With Slow when hit
"Wind Spikes" = Does no damage, Weighs target Down when hit
"Water Spikes" = Does no Damage, Poisons Target when hit

"Thunder buff" = Increases Critical hit Rate Small Amount (5%)
"Ice Buff" = Increases Magic Attack a Small Amount (5MAB)
"Fire Buff" = Increases Attack a Small Amount. (5% attack)


So the 3 "offensive" types get a "Defensive/offense Buff" while the 3 "Defensive types" get a "Defensive Spikes".

I'm wording this weird but i think you see where I'm going.


Rambus:



So Ice Spikes, Shock Spikes and Blaze Spikes aren't in same family, as there's 3 types of ice spikes, but only 1 form of blaze spikes?

Though you are right about reprisal. It is a part of the same family. Offers a form of reflect and a defensive buff for shield use.

You know, You just thought of something i didn't. Its not a completed Circled.

Wind = Blink
Earth = Stoneskin
Water = Aquaviel
Ice = Ice Spikes
Thunder = Shock Spikes
Fire = Blaze Spikes
Light = Reprisal
Dark = Dread Spikes

Circle completed!

[Saefinn]

Rambus:


it is illogical to have 5-7 forms of stoneskin, 4-6 forms of blink, 3 forms of ice spikes, 2 forms of thunder spikes, 1 form of aquavail and 1 form of fire spikes and say they are in the same family.

So Ice Spikes, Shock Spikes and Blaze Spikes aren't in same family, as there's 3 types of ice spikes, but only 1 form of blaze spikes?

Though you are right about reprisal. It is a part of the same family. Offers a form of reflect and a defensive buff for shield use.

[Rambus]

you do know there is thunder, fire, ice buffs exist already ?


Rambus:



So Ice Spikes, Shock Spikes and Blaze Spikes aren't in same family, as there's 3 types of ice spikes, but only 1 form of blaze spikes?

Though you are right about reprisal. It is a part of the same family. Offers a form of reflect and a defensive buff for shield use.

there is not a from of spikes that lasts for 30 seconds. true i see your point though, can't really replay to it.

I do not understand why other buffs have define lines but people are trying to claim all over the place buffs with this claim.

hard to explain this, i am trying to say i do not get how one can view a famliy of spells with huge different fuctions.

[Zyeriis]

I like how this thread I made completely restarted arguments that have already been settled/talked about, while ignoring those discussions because of Karbuncle not reading the thread. We went over possible "defensive" buffs for fire/ice/lightning before you posted.

Summary:

"Offensive' SET of Elemental Buffs
Blaze Spikes (Fire)
Ice Spikes (Ice)
Shock Spikes (Lightning)

I want to expand this SET to include the other 3 elements.

"Defensive" SET of Elemental Buffs
Aquaveil (Water)
Stoneskin (Earth)
Blink (Wind)

I want to expand this SET to include the other 3 elements.

Light vs. Dark

"Offensive" SET of Elemental Buffs Additions to the game at a later time (Because SE can do that, hence the entire idea behind the thread?).

Dread Spikes (Dark)
Reprisal (Light)

"Defensive" SET of Elemental Buffs

Phalanx (Light)

What we are truly missing is a Dark based Defensive buff, not a light one. Yes, it wasn't ORIGINALLY for PLD but SE can CHANGE things and ADD things to COMPLETE SETS of spells.

I really don't care about "facts" on the matter when all of them have contradictions to counter with (Phalanx), nor do I care about "NO! Phalanx is just light because there's no such thing as non-elemental spells!" nor "Light and Dark count!" as those are extremely silly "arguments" which I've been over, time and time again. Using them to call yourself right is relatively sad. You can take offense if you want but they are still piss-poor attempts at knocking them down just to be right.

We done having this stupid argument all over again? Can we get back to actually talking about the topic (I'm assuming no but maybe I'll be surprised?)?

[Karbuncle]

I don't know what you think i was arguing, But it was that the idea of Elemental Spikes for Water, Wind, and Earth were dumb ideas, and technically the "spike/buff" version of those elements were present in the form of Blink, Stoneskin, and Aquaviel.

I stand by that argument.

That being said. I Don't agree with the Ideas presented. They are not necessary, Though they would be kinda nice. Back in my noob days i always wondered why we didn't have spikes for those three elements, then i put 2-2 Together and remembered Aquav/Blink/Stones. But It would have been interesting.

(Btw I've already said all of this below, For someone claiming i didn't read, You sure didn't see the part where i Already made Suggestions for "Spikes" for these Elements. For the purpose of Discusssion I'll repeat them)

I think "Earth Spikes" (Mud is stupid) would consist of "Low Damage: Added Effect Slow on hits." wouldn't be bad.
The Wind Spikes, Perhaps could Gravity on hit, Maybe do some damage. and Water Spikes could Poison.

Truthfully, I Originally had them doing no damage, Just Debuffs. But small Damage + Debuffs wouldn't be too bad. I think "Wind Spikes" Actually should be the "pure damage" of the three, Similar to Blaze Spikes.

But then to maintain Balance, We would need to think/create 3 For Lightning, Ice, and Fire in terms of "Defensive Abilities" with no offense. Which is difficult. Because a lot of buffs are already there.

Well I tossed my Idea. Seem to be the same as yours.

But the hard part is naming buffs for the Other 3 Elements (Fire, Thunder, and Ice) so each one has a complete set of 6.

Now, There is another thing, Wouldn't it be better of making 1 of them "pure Damage" Similar to Blaze spikes? perhaps... Perhaps not. back then the only "fire" debuff was Virus, Plague, etc. Didn't have Amnesia. Today we have Debuffs easily for Water/Stone/Wind, So maybe not.

Tough call.

[Kensagaku]

Gonna re-emphasize my earlier post, since this was the point at which Rambus started going off. All my ideas always get buried.

You were looking for suggestions for the different buffs, Krabknuckle, so here's what I had in mind for both "spikes" and "defensive" spells to complete the core elemental circle (with edits from discussions)


Offensive Spikes
Aqua Spikes - Covers you with magical water spikes. Enemies that hit you take water damage. Additional Effect: May inflict Poison on attacking enemies.

Gale Spikes - Covers you with magical wind spikes. Enemies that hit you take wind damage.
~Note: This would be comparable to the other spikes as blaze spikes is to ice/shock spikes at the moment; higher overall damage due to lack of additional effect.

Terra Spikes - Covers you with magical earth spikes. Enemies that hit you take earth damage. Additional Effect: May inflict Slow on attacking enemies.

Defensive Spells
Resonance (Thunder-based): Creates an aura that copies an opponent's offensive spell and counters with it.
~Notes: The user would still take damage; otherwise this would just be a buffed Blink because blink can absorb single-targets. Would only copy two spells, identical to blink. AoEs would be reflected in an AoE around the target, which means that you'd have to be very careful with use.
~Edited note: Would have to not affect certain spells, i.e. Death, etc, otherwise it could be potentially OP. Maybe limit it to spells players can normally cast? That would prevent Meteor/Comet Counters, etc.

Bravery (Fire-Based): Increases the attack power of one target.
~Notes: Would be affected by Accession like any other spell, making it more useful with a /SCH subjob. Would be a smaller boost based on the user's Enhancing Magic Skill but still useful.

Faith (Ice-Based): Increases the magical attack power of one target.
~Notes: Think of this as the magical version of Bravery, adding perhaps a small amount of MAB based on the user's Enhancing Magic. Just in case you missed it, I felt that these were potential ideas. Mind you they'd need tweaking, but I think it'd be a decent place to start if we were to pursue this train of thought.

[Karbuncle]

Actually, over at BG i suggested Attack and magic Attack increases for Fire/Ice, The Spikes are very similar to the OP's, Its makes sense.

Now the Fire/Thund/Ice Defensive Buffs, Those are Wonderful, Well thought out Ideas with Coherent logical Patterns and thought behind them. Its Amazing what a little time spent can accomplish.

I especially like the Naming. It takes itself from Previous FF games. It fits the Style. Really good job. in fact >.> They're just so awesome i could actually seem them being reasonable to add some day. I mean, I really doubt the Dev team will add any of them any time soon because it seems their responses lately are "yah We're already doing that" or "Ain't happening Til the calender is over". So we Either have to think they're already implementing this, Or we'll get it sometime in 2012 :o

[Rambus]

the idea of "Defensive Spells" is to defend, not to attack and like i said before we have lots of attack buffs.

I was trying to come up with defensive spells that would be new to the game and have applcation for a 99 game.

Fire barrier:
lowers magic damage done to the person.
the hidden notes of this spell would be that it makes your INT vaule in defence higher so unlike MDT you are reducing magic damage at the core (first thing in damage damage is int difference)
the idea of this was to go along the logic lines of burn, burn lowers INT.

ice block:
incases the caster in a block of ice, that makes the user unable to take any action, in retrun, they cannot take any damage for the time it is up (self target, would be a defender move for mages)
*problem with this is that manawall gives this effect, sotra

plasma shield:
lowers effectiveness of Enfeebling magic:

*so when you get Paralyze, it happens less often, a different effect of bars that just heighten resist rates and partial resists. shock lowers mind, and most Enfeebling magic is a mind check.

Noctowall:
An otherworld of energy surrounds the target taking less critical hit damage, grants some max hp, some mp, some magic defense (MDB not MDT) , and some PDT. The PDT bonus would work outside of cap, so be light maybe 5-10% extra PDT.

*idea of notcowall sems from past FF "wall" spell that grants people protect and shell, furthermore it fits in current FFXI concepts where dark affinity grants increases in all stats.

now you can have your gale spikes, aqua spikes and terra spikes without people going omg elements

[Zyeriis]

I don't know what you think i was arguing, But it was that the idea of Elemental Spikes for Water, Wind, and Earth were dumb ideas, and technically the "spike/buff" version of those elements were present in the form of Blink, Stoneskin, and Aquaviel.

I stand by that argument.

That being said. I Don't agree with the Ideas presented. They are not necessary, Though they would be kinda nice. Back in my noob days i always wondered why we didn't have spikes for those three elements, then i put 2-2 Together and remembered Aquav/Blink/Stones. But It would have been interesting.

(Btw I've already said all of this below, For someone claiming i didn't read, You sure didn't see the part where i Already made Suggestions for "Spikes" for these Elements. For the purpose of Discusssion I'll repeat them)

I think "Earth Spikes" (Mud is stupid) would consist of "Low Damage: Added Effect Slow on hits." wouldn't be bad.
The Wind Spikes, Perhaps could Gravity on hit, Maybe do some damage. and Water Spikes could Poison.

Truthfully, I Originally had them doing no damage, Just Debuffs. But small Damage + Debuffs wouldn't be too bad. I think "Wind Spikes" Actually should be the "pure damage" of the three, Similar to Blaze Spikes.

But then to maintain Balance, We would need to think/create 3 For Lightning, Ice, and Fire in terms of "Defensive Abilities" with no offense. Which is difficult. Because a lot of buffs are already there.

Well I tossed my Idea. Seem to be the same as yours.

But the hard part is naming buffs for the Other 3 Elements (Fire, Thunder, and Ice) so each one has a complete set of 6.

Now, There is another thing, Wouldn't it be better of making 1 of them "pure Damage" Similar to Blaze spikes? perhaps... Perhaps not. back then the only "fire" debuff was Virus, Plague, etc. Didn't have Amnesia. Today we have Debuffs easily for Water/Stone/Wind, So maybe not.

Tough call.

You think the ideas for wind/earth/water based spikes is a dumb idea at the same time thinking that it would be interesting, and then tossed your idea (that is practically identical, which you later affirmed in the same post) on the matter. It's a tad confusing/contradictory from this angle.

Anyway, I came up with the name "Mud" Spikes because it causes slow. As in....walking through mud...slows you down. Dumb, I know but it fit and Stone Spikes sounded wrong. That being said, Kensagaku came up with a better name for both Wind Spikes and Mud Spikes in Gale Spikes and Terra Spikes.

As for the pure damage idea, this seems like a bad idea. No one really uses blaze spikes once they have ice spikes because it gives no potential debuffs. If Gale Spikes were pure damage, they would have to do a noticably higher degree of damage and would be highly prone to being overpowered. I believe that's why SE gave ice and shock spikes the potential debuffs so as to not overpower them (this of course is a matter of opinion and not confirmed fact, theory at best). As for the potential enfeeble, I have been leaning toward the gravity potential, as it seems the least potentially overpowered enfeeble to add to the Gale Spikes idea. Dancer gets Gravity in the form of Desperate Flourish, that isn't nearly as good as the spell but still has it's uses. The same logic can be applied here to Gale Spikes causing a potential Gravity effect, which would be nice for kiting.

As for the 3 buffs for the other elements (fire/lightning/ice), I presented some off the top of my head ideas and Kensagaku (see above) ran a bit further with them. Resonance was originally Reflect and ice based but, it appears he changed it to lightning based after some discussion on the matter with the conflicting idea for the previously lightning based idea of Faith as the spell. Faith being a magic attack bonus buff, it was determined it would fit better as an ice based spell in lieu of reflect (though not entirely necessary: sparked discussions about "exceptions" to the "rules" on status effects being a specific element).

The fire based buff was/is the hardest one to come up with. Bravery seems to be the top-contender but there have been some other ideas such as Regain (but didn't want to step on SAM [Meditate = Regain Ability], SCH, or COR's toes, but this is more of a placebo argument on it, as Faith could very well step on other job's toes as well.). Potency was another idea for a Lightning based spell to increase critical hit rate.

Anyway:
Stoneskin = Earth = VIT
Blink = Wind = AGI
Aquaveil = Water = MND
Bravery or Regain = Fire = STR
Faith or Reflect = Ice = INT
Potency or Resonance = Lightning = DEX

[Rambus]

DEX/thunder is acc/ crt hits

regain is light, SCH have a spell already

light is all stats/ or chr only ( depending what you look at)
dark is all stats.

[Kensagaku]

the idea of "Defensive Spells" is to defend, not to attack and like i said before we have lots of attack buffs.

I was trying to come up with defensive spells that would be new to the game and have applcation for a 99 game.

Fire barrier:
lowers magic damage done to the person.
the hidden notes of this spell would be that it makes your INT vaule in defence higher so unlike MDT you are reducing magic damage at the core (first thing in damage damage is int difference)
the idea of this was to go along the logic lines of burn, burn lowers INT.

ice block:
incases the caster in a block of ice, that makes the user unable to take any action, in retrun, they cannot take any damage for the time it is up (self target, would be a defender move for mages)
*problem with this is that manawall gives this effect, sotra

plasma shield:
lowers effectiveness of Enfeebling magic:

*so when you get Paralyze, it happens less often, a different effect of bars that just heighten resist rates and partial resists. shock lowers mind, and most Enfeebling magic is a mind check.

Noctowall:
An otherworld of energy surrounds the target taking less critical hit damage, grants some max hp, some mp, some magic defense (MDB not MDT) , and some PDT. The PDT bonus would work outside of cap, so be light maybe 5-10% extra PDT.

*idea of notcowall sems from past FF "wall" spell that grants people protect and shell, furthermore it fits in current FFXI concepts where dark affinity grants increases in all stats.

now you can have your gale spikes, aqua spikes and terra spikes without people going omg elements

Eh, I don't really have a problem with the fire one off the top of my head, but the other three...

The ice one? You're creating an invincible for mages, and since it's only used in panic moments, it would probably have to be fairly fast cast. This could be potentially abused by TAing a lot of hate onto said mage, having them put up invincible, and heyo, invincible non-acting tank.

Plasma shield - How would this work? Why would it reduce the effectiveness of status ailments? The RP aspect of it aside, giving a "Resist All I" trait via spell seems way OP, especially when we have spells for individual resistances that don't stack with each other (element on element or debuff v. debuff... you can have barparalyze/barblizzard up at the same time, for example).

Noctowall - Waaaaaaay OP. Too many buffs for a single "defensive" spell.

[Rambus]

Eh, I don't really have a problem with the fire one off the top of my head, but the other three...

The ice one? You're creating an invincible for mages, and since it's only used in panic moments, it would probably have to be fairly fast cast. This could be potentially abused by TAing a lot of hate onto said mage, having them put up invincible, and heyo, invincible non-acting tank.

Plasma shield - How would this work? Why would it reduce the effectiveness of status ailments? The RP aspect of it aside, giving a "Resist All I" trait via spell seems way OP, especially when we have spells for individual resistances that don't stack with each other (element on element or debuff v. debuff... you can have barparalyze/barblizzard up at the same time, for example).

Noctowall - Waaaaaaay OP. Too many buffs for a single "defensive" spell.

ice one i admit it is more stolen from wow, it has a long recast and for like 7 seconds you can't move or take damage, I really cannot come up with some type of ice defence that already exists

the thunder one is for Enfeebling magic cast on you, like say para is procing on you ever 2 seconds, it would make it happen every 4 seconds or something, ill lower the effectiveness rate, so it does not conflict with bars and what they do. (like the fire one with int, it is like making your mnd check higher when you go though the formula) so it is like the shock defender, like my fire idea was based off burn.

as far as nocowall hay you want a true 99 game right? I could say you will have a need for it to take on 99 endgame, ya OP for current state that is why i noted more for 99 game

[Saefinn]

I like the idea of Bravery and Faith, especially if Faith were to stack with Ebullience and Bravery to stack with COR rolls and BRD songs, I don't think it's necessarily stepping on a jobs' toes when effects stack, hence COR and BRD don't really step on each other's toes - I've been in a party with both stacking ATT and ACC bonuses and it was insane, then again how many parties invite both? I'm not sure what to go with, the Thunder Element Plasma Shield, maybe, it is similar to something I suggested earlier, where enfeebles are resisted, which I'd probably scrap for Magic Shield (suggestion below) as Magic Shield would be able to do the same thing, and more. If it easing the burden like making paralyze hit less often, it'd be different enough to warrant another buff, but I think I'm more likely to cast paralyna or erase.

On the Dark Side - maybe have Magic Shield, I know BLU has Magic Barrier, but I don't see it doing any damage in giving a version to other mages. It already is Dark Elemental. Magic Barrier is over written by Stoneskin, which is fair - you might cast Magic Shield instead of Stoneskin if facing an arcane mob or one who likes to use enfeebling effects, including dispel. Like Stoneskin it'd be target-self only and can be AoE'd by Accession.

[Windblade]

RDM doesn't need shit.

Oh yes they do. RDM takes a long time to kill monsters, making it a not-very-speedy job to level up solo. RDM doesn't have any really good weapon skills, either.

I think RDM should at least be able to solo skillchains and magic bursts. How? It would be loads of fun.

First of all, RDM would need a whole set of elemental weapon skills that at least equate with Burning Blade. So you'd have Dirty Blade, Splashing Blade, Tornado Blade, Burning Blade, Freezing Blade, Shocking Blade, Shining Blade, and Condemnation Blade or something for the dark element.

This could work a couple of different ways. You could use Enfire II, then use a Fire-based weapon skill, followed by a fire spell for both a skillchain and a magic burst so we can kill more quickly.

Or, even more creative: Use Enfire II, then cast a water spell on the mob, then cast a Thunder spell. Since he's all wet, the thunder spell SHOULD burst, logically.

Or using Enthunder II, then a Water spell would cause Enthunder II to do more damage.

Shock your monster by first using Fire, then Blizzard for twice the damage as normal. Or Stone, then Aero for twice the damage as normal.

[noodles355]

Somewhat of a necro post, but I wan't to make it clear why I believe the 6 spells Aquaviel, Stoneskin, Blink, Blaze Spikes, Ice Spikes and Shock Spikes were introduced as one set of spells.

I would like to start by stating that I don't think it is either good posting technique, or manners to purely state "you're wrong" in response to an opinion. Regarding a proven fact? Like 2+2=5? That's fine. But not an opinion such as the one being discussed. In this post I will give a mildly-detailed explanation to my opinion that they are the same group of spells. I find it both rude and offsneive that You, Rambus, keep shouting "you're wrong". In the end, none of us truely know what was SE's intent. Was it a group of 3 spells? Or a group of 6? (Remembering that Reprisal/Drain Spikes were added at a later date, and we must look back to their original implamentation). You have no more right to say they are a group of 3 spells, than I do to say they are a group of 6. The fact you believe you do is quite distressing. Your logic is that they all have the word "Spikes" in the name. That's a fair point, but you never even asked me what my view was for stating I believed Aquaviel/Blink/Stoneskin were alread Water/Wind/Earth "Spikes".

Anyway, moving on. Here was the logic for my statement that the 6 spells form one group:
Blaze Spikes: Surrounding yourself in a wall of Tire.
Shock Spikes: Surrounding yourself in a wall of Thunder.
Ice Spikes: Surrounding yourself in a wall of Ice.
Blink: Surrounding yourself in a wall of Wind.
Aquaviel: Surrounding yourself in a wall of Water.
Stoneskin: Surrounding yourself in a wall of Stone.

If you touch fire, you will burn (hurt) yourself, thus this spell damages the attacker.
If you touch an electrical field, you will get shocked, leading to a stun affect.
If you touch a wall of ice, your hand will get cold and may stop functioning ("frozen solid"), leading to the closest affect in the game: paralysis.
If you try to touch a blowing wind, it is likely the wind will blow your arm off-course causing you to miss. A shadow affect represents this.
If you touch a wall of rock, you wont do anything to yourself, but it will be sturdy and difficult to break through.
If you touch a wall of water, your movements will become slower and softer (ever tried punching someone underwater?). Longer attacks mean more time for the defendant to concentrate, leading to spell interupt +.

You see? If you concider the 6 spells as putting up elemental defensive barriers around yourself, the idea is not so difficult to grasp. My opinion that this was SE's original intend has merit, and to simply dismiss it so quickly and so rudely, especially after going on your holy crusade is pretty poor to be honest.