ok i didnt understand something about thief

[Cyriack]

deleting post so people figure it out on their own, there was no changing peoples minds even with proof, and people just want to be jerks so i dont want this post anymore.

[Catmato]

It's 3+5. Anything more than TH8 in traits/gear combined is pointless.

[Dihlyte]

It's 3+5. Anything more than TH8 in traits/gear combined is pointless.

Per a representative of Square-Enix


…when the value of Treasure Hunter placed on a monster and the value of the Treasure Hunter on your character are different, this will cause the growth rate to vary.

So in theory, having anything less than TH14 total, you have a lower chance to proc.

(We already had this debate. It’s very clear, that having less than TH14 Lowers your chance to proc to TH14.)

Also, for a visual made by a player to represent this concept, confirmed via the words of the previous statement.

(These values are just a visual representation; they are not accurate)

https://i.imgur.com/0z5iy85.png


https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/showthread.php?p=658154#post658154

[Dihlyte]

So the “magic” numbers are:

THF level 99 = TH 3
THF level 99 (TH3) + armor (TH 5) = TH8
(Bare minimum)

THF level 99 (TH3) + armor (TH11) = TH14



So if you are playing job master (or 1,200 job points minimum)

…and just want to “tag and kill” you want:

Treasure Hunter 5 minimum.

If you want to proc to 14:

Treasure Hunter 11

Anything above TH11 is only the debatable area.

[radar]

The difference in proc rates are minimal, to the point it's near impossible to actually see a difference between having +8 and +11+ total.

Also most monsters where you want TH will die before you get near it, and of those that won't you need more damage.

[Dihlyte]

Well factually there is a difference.

The point is to add that clarity.

I personally love THF, and it’s my favorite job.

I enjoy having TH11, and even like to mess around with more TH when something is being stingy.

Certainly it’s upon the player to decide their approach.

At the end of the day, it is a fact that TH11 on gear is the “true minimum” not 5.

It is up to the individual player what they choose to use.

[Cyriack]

so to be clear... th gear 8 and 3 in traits is actually better for processing? and to go over it is unknown?

[Dihlyte]

so to be clear... th gear 8 and 3 in traits is actually better for processing? and to go over it is unknown?

5

Or

11

Your choice.

[Cyriack]

5

Or

11

Your choice.

i just tried 14 and got like almost 0 drops one 100 and one sparkling stone doing dynamis jueno. Gonna test with it.

[Cyriack]

but i went back to th8 today and its just a bad day for testing got barely any drops but 2 100s. on another note is dw11 too much for a thief99/dancer with full buff trusts?

[Catmato]

Some trusted members of the community did some math and determined that TH+ beyond 8 probably doesn't help. They've done statistical analysis and provided confidence intervals.
https://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/55788/treasure-hunter-proc-rate-testing-th-8-versus-14/7/#3688782

Some random person on the official forum with a chip on their shoulder did a couple tests with a much smaller sample size, without statistical analysis, without providing anything about their testing method, potentially including SA, TA, and Feint, and determined that TH+ beyond 8 probably helps.

[Cyriack]

People did some math and determined that TH+ beyond 8 probably doesn't help.
https://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/55788/treasure-hunter-proc-rate-testing-th-8-versus-14/7/#3688782

so what about changing gear from tag mode like for example changing from th8 to melee with no th to fight?

[Catmato]

Staying in TH5 gear gives a higher upgrade chance than removing it.

[Dihlyte]

People did some math and determined that TH+ beyond 8 probably doesn't help.
https://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/55788/treasure-hunter-proc-rate-testing-th-8-versus-14/7/#3688782

I don't see this data using Feint or Sneak attack at all, or even weapon skills for this matter.

Again, going back to "Enemies who need more damage will see THF using more optimal gear outside of TH gear" and "Enemies who are capable of being procced easier will die faster"

but.. anyone who pushes THF to the limits isn't going to be undergeared or restricted in terms of options in the first place.

So it just goes back to "are you going to just toss on TH and forget about it" or "are you going to maximize your potential as a THF"

Anyone trying to proc, say a pulse weapon from Meeble burrows, which is where this information becomes important, will be using as much feint, SA, and possibly even WS's with removed gear that is without TH on it will benefit.

I personally have gotten around 10 pulse weapons from Meeble burrows, and this is where I really utilize Feint, SA, and timed WS, with maximum TH values.

Even with Maiden of the Dusk HTMB, I like to optimize my TH-vs-survival options.

So again, this "Data" presented here is not really valuable. No well respectable THF is going to just auto attack and never use Feint, Sneak attack or any WS to proc TH, while using TH14+ total on their character.

If this is how you want to play THF, all the power to you, but the optimal way to get the most from Treasure Hunter is not to just toss on TH5 armor as THF, and just auto attack..

The optimal way to play THF, and maximize TH, is to be master THF, and perfectly balance your TH-vs-survival rate, and proc properly using bully, Feint, Sneak attack, trick attack, and Weaponskills accordingly.

[Catmato]

I disagree that the data is not valuable. I don't think SA, TA, Feint, etc really make a difference in what the testing is trying to prove. Using Sneak Attack isn't going to make TH+ gear beyond +5 suddenly work or not work. They weren't trying to figure out the optimal playstyle, just determine if gear beyond +5 makes a difference.

[Dihlyte]

Sneak attack has a much higher rate to proc Treasure Hunter, than just a melee attack.

If TH gear creates a greater rate of success to proc (which is factually does as mentioned by a Square-Enix representative) then it will be further reflected when coupled with Sneak Attack.

Add this to all the other abilities, and you will see a greater difference, and a higher value for treasure Hunter gear.

I’m really starting to believe you either extremely dislike THF, TH gear, or some other personal issue, or you just like to argue.

I find it quite odd to be playing FFXI which is a game centered around collecting equipment for specific tasks, and saying TH gear has no value, when it has been proven by Square-Enix, the developer of FFXI, that it in fact has value, and increased the rate.

I don’t even know how this is a debate, it’s already been proven.

[Catmato]

Sneak attack has a much higher rate to proc Treasure Hunter, than just a melee attack.

If TH gear creates a greater rate of success to proc (which is factually does as mentioned by a Square-Enix representative) then it will be further reflected when coupled with Sneak Attack.

Add this to all the other abilities, and you will see a greater difference, and a higher value for treasure Hunter gear.

I never said otherwise. The data doesn't test SA/TA/Feint because that stuff is already proven to be true. Why would they re-examine it? That's not what they're trying to prove.


I’m really starting to believe you either extremely dislike THF, TH gear, or some other personal issue, or you just like to argue.

I find it quite odd to be playing FFXI which is a game centered around collecting equipment for specific tasks, and saying TH gear has no value, when it has been proven by Square-Enix, the developer of FFXI, that it in fact has value, and increased the rate.

I don’t even know how this is a debate, it’s already been proven.

Maybe you need to re-read what I've said because I've been pragmatic about this the entire time. Nothing has been said with any emotion or ulterior motive around it. Someone asked a question and I'm answering it with the best information the community has at the moment.

Who said TH gear has no value? You're putting words into my mouth. Almost all stats have invisible caps that the game doesn't explicitly state(enmity+/-, cure potency, DT, etc). Treasure Hunter is no different, except that the devs have told us (outside the game) that TH beyond 8 has no effect. You aren't wrong in saying their statement is ambiguous about whether that applies only to the initial application (first hit) or to the upgrade (proc) rate. It very much IS ambiguous because, among other things, the community reps don't always understand the game, and they have to interpret from statements made in Japanese. That ambiguity is what that thread is trying to clear up, and they determined that with their limited testing, going beyond TH+5 in gear probably doesn't have any effect. If you have your own testing data, aside from your chart that you admit isn't actually accurate, please share it, I'm sure the mathemagicians would love to see it.

And you know what? This still means that you need two pieces of TH+ gear equipped to hit that cap, which leaves a bunch of different gear slots to theorycraft around to figure out the optimal way to play THF. THF being one of my favorite jobs btw.

[Dihlyte]

I never said otherwise.

Who said TH gear has no value?

except that the devs have told us (outside the game) that TH beyond 8 has no effect.

You did say otherwise.


It's 3+5. Anything more than TH8 in traits/gear combined is pointless.

You said TH gear has no value above TH5 on gear, which is not 14, and factually per the FFXI developer, anything below TH11 on gear has a reduced rate to proc.

And I already quoted, and will quote again, the devs have said anything below TH 14 has a reduced rate of procing.


…when the value of Treasure Hunter placed on a monster and the value of the Treasure Hunter on your character are different, this will cause the growth rate to vary.

This conversation is proving entirely unfruitful.

If you personally do not want to use TH11 then that is fine, but to keep insisting that anything below TH11 does not have a reduced rate is not compliant with the facts made public knowledge by a SE representative, and clearly implied by the development team who has released a significant amount of equipment to properly reach this TH11 value.

[Catmato]

So you're still putting words into my mouth, got it. Stop with the personal attacks then.

What part of that statement references TH14, TH8, TH+5 or anything about the cap? It doesn't. You are making up information that isn't there. Camate's quote does not say that the upgrade rate bypasses the cap or even mention the cap.

You are almost certainly wrong. I can't tell you to stop lying to people until you have some kind of testing data, but I can provide links to the data that likely proves you wrong. You want me to stop saying that TH+5 is the most you need? Give me some data and I'll edit every post about the topic to remove anything that's proven or strongly suggests that it's wrong. A quote from a community rep is not data. Show me numbers. You're trying to assert something, the burden of proof is on you, especially when there's data to prove you otherwise and you're the only person who claims the data is wrong.

If you want to TP in TH+26 (why stop at 14? nothing says that's the cap) or whatever, go for it, but if I see people asking this question, I'm always going to link to the actual, factual data.

I will admit that I was wrong about one thing. I said that equipping TH+5 requires at least 2 pieces of gear. That was wrong, TH+5 can be obtained in a single piece, Skulker's poulaines +3.

[Cyriack]

ok this is not a perfect test but i did try th14 in dynamis 1x and i didnt get but like 5 drops in 10 minutes it might have been because its random, might have been the day but with th8 i got like 90. so its possible that the th14 gets rarer drops or less drop in total or maybe it was the randomness of the day. you guys dont have to fight over this its all random so theres no proof of anything other than what devs said 15 years ago. also it could have changed since that. i have noticed before when i had th11 total i was getting more 100 pieces and less stones but it could have been a random day as well.

[Dihlyte]

So you're still putting words into my mouth, got it. Stop with the personal attacks then.

What part of that statement references TH14, TH8, TH+5 or anything about the cap? It doesn't. You are making up information that isn't there. Camate's quote does not say that the upgrade rate bypasses the cap or even mention the cap.

You are almost certainly wrong. I can't tell you to stop lying to people until you have some kind of testing data, but I can provide links to the data that likely proves you wrong. You want me to stop saying that TH+5 is the most you need? Give me some data and I'll edit every post about the topic to remove anything that's proven or strongly suggests that it's wrong. A quote from a community rep is not data. Show me numbers. You're trying to assert something, the burden of proof is on you, especially when there's data to prove you otherwise and you're the only person who claims the data is wrong.

If you want to TP in TH+26 (why stop at 14? nothing says that's the cap) or whatever, go for it, but if I see people asking this question, I'm always going to link to the actual, factual data.

I will admit that I was wrong about one thing. I said that equipping TH+5 requires at least 2 pieces of gear. That was wrong, TH+5 can be obtained in a single piece, Skulker's poulaines +3.

I quoted you exactly.

I already gave you data.

There is more data across the internet, further details about how TH works via the SE representative, and other sources that clearly indicate anything below TH14 reduces the proc rate.

You and anyone else are welcome to ignore that data, and focus on some random post, by some random player who did not provide any actual proof they performed these tests in-game at all, or even so much has a character on FFXI retail, for all I know the person you're quoting is you yourself.

I personally will choose to trust Square-Enix, and the data within the game, and my proven experience in meeble burrows over other players.

I already said I got over 10 pulse weapons in meeble burrows, and everyone on the internet says Urmahlullu is the best way.

I've done roughly 350 Urmahlullu, without THF cause THF doesnt affect his drop rates, and with THF, just for the fact I just needed to do something different cause the drop rate is just so low, and wanted to at least pretend something was happening. I have proven to myself, that Urmahlullu is not the best way, not even close. Its just an easy quick fight, which does not equate to drop rates.

I have seen 2 pulse weapons from Urmahlullu, which makes sense, because it is a 1% drop rate or something very low.

As for Meeble burrows, it is a similar low drop rate, but the boss is proc-able, and because of that, you can raise TH to TH14, which I do efficiently with my TH14 THF, to obtain the drop numerous times.

I have done significantly fewer Meeble burrows than Urmahlullu, probably 200 at most.

Here is your data, I shouldnt have spent the time to do this, as you said the burden is on you, not me.

https://www.bg-wiki.com/ffxi/Dreyruk

https://www.bg-wiki.com/ffxi/Treasure_Hunter

https://www.bg-wiki.com/images/1/14/XI_TH_DropRate.png

https://i.imgur.com/hweS9ts.png

Very Rare is 1-7% per this chart, procing to TH 14 gives Gusterion a new 10%-20% drop rate.

10 / 200 = 5%

My first probably 50-100 runs were when I was not master THF without TH14, but I included those runs.

I typically get a Pulse to drop once out of 10-20 clears.

Although admittedly my most recent attempt has taken 30 clears no drop. I got my most recent pulse, the second drop I saw from Urmahlullu.

But I already know you're not going to take my word for it, because you've clearly chosen to prefer that other data, that does not play THF properly, which is perfectly fine. This conversation is over.

Have a good day.

[BobbinT]

Glad you did. Basically on my end being also using THF quite alot, if it's not 100%, even if it's 99.9%, then RNG still can screw big time, just like how a 98 roll can still be screwed with a 99.
Someone told me in the past that probabilistic meant little to none for individuals, the graphical presentation just to demonstrate the chances overall, but in the end it's all on player's luck.

[Catmato]

I quoted you exactly.

I already gave you data.

No you didn't. You are lying. You are also implying that I don't believe in treasure hunter for some reason? Or that i don't think increased treasure hunter level increase drop rates? No idea where you got that from. Also, your or anyone else's drop rates have literally nothing to do with this conversation. We were talking about TH upgrade proc rates, not drop rates. Your chart refers to the level of TH applied to the mob; of course higher TH levels are going to increase drop rates, that's the whole point, I was never arguing against that.

You're right, the conversation IS over because you've apparently having some other conversation with somebody else this entire time.

[radar]

The whole argument is if wearing more TH boosts the proc rate of +1 enough to warrant doing it, and if it was provable you would do 100 tests with and 100 tests without and show it. From my experience I noticed near no difference. Considering almost all +1 are going to be from SA/TA it's pretty easy to notice a big difference.


ok i tested it in 1 minute of dynamis jueno with th14 i got 2 100 pieces and 3 sparkling stones. then i continued to get the TE and proc almost every mob i used aeolian edge or solo attacked with th14, i put the th14 in my aeolian edge set with volte gear. So you are both right for two totally different reasons. First there is better proc with 14, and u will get rarer drops but u get less of the common ones. and th8 u get more common and less rare. so that solves that.

No.