Paladin: Possibilities

[Zyeriis]

Disclaimer: I would put this in the paladin sub forum. The problem is that the problem and solutions I am going to present apply to every job and game/party mechanics in general. Thus, it is going in general discussion.

If it isn't obvious: This thread is about Paladin, and how broken (the bad kind) it currently is in the game. Yes, Paladin can still mitigate damage extremely well but the problem lay in it's inability to out-enmity gain (and maintain) DDs and other jobs, which can do it just as well, if not better.

There have been a number of solutions thought up on how to address this issue from a DD buff to More Spells to More Job abilities for Paladin. So, I figured it time to think up some ways Paladin could be "fixed" for myself and to add to the list based on other ideas presented, much like I did in my thread about Campaign and how it could be improved.

Disclaimer #2: Not all ideas posted below may be original ideas of my own. I will give credit where credit is due, if and when possible. The starter ideas will have no citation as they will only come from my own thoughts on the matter. Any additional ideas brought up in this thread will be the ones that get credit for ideas when I add them to the list.

I will bold individual idea's headers to separate them. This way, people can focus on a specific idea. I will also number them so that they can be refered to as idea #1, idea #2, etc. Original solutions will be categorized with upper case letters and italicized headers. Additional solutions under one such bolded idea will be categorized with lower case letters and underlined headers with a double indent (--). Examples: Original Solution 1A, 1B, 2A, 2B or Additional Solution 1a, 1b, 2a, 2b, etc.

1) Cover

-1A) Make it a Job Trait
Cover is likely one of the most under used job abilities that a Paladin has access to. It is simply impractical to use. Yes, there are other job abilities that Paladin has that are likely used even less but Cover stands out as an actual potentially useful ability with an insane recast timer. The best solution for this? Turn it into a job trait that only works if you are wielding a shield with a high proc rate.

Detailed Explanation: Cover as Job Trait would only require the Paladin be between the person with hate and the enemy (just like the job ability) except this job trait would be active at all times (but not necessarily with a 100% proc rate, I leave that up to the dev team, it could be like Zanshin in respect to not always procing). This solution fixes a lot of problems with paladin AND makes cover itself extremely useful. Paladin itself would no longer need to beat the DDs for hate. Paladin would be able to use their hate to the advantage of the party by simply shielding the person with hate from the enemy.

-1B) Remove "Be between enemy and target party member" restriction
This solution does not involve changing Cover into a job trait. Instead, simply make cover no longer require re-positioning on anyone's part. All damage directed at the target party member would be transfered (or directly dealt) to the Paladin instead without having to be between the monster and the party member.

-1C) Make it AoE
Monsters these days in Abyssea get auras that are constantly in affect, such as Sedna's silence aura. Why can't player's get such abilities? Cover seems like it would be a good choice for this type of upgrade (much like avatar's favor). Make it self-target and create an enmity drawing aura. Any player in the party within the field of the Cover aura who is targeted due to enmity would have the enemy attack the Paladin instead.

2) Combat Roles

-2A) Commander-type Class
This idea is relatively simple. Start crafting Paladin into a "Leader" type of class. Giving spells like Bravery/Valor and Faith to Paladin. This ties in a bit with the Cover AoE idea (1C) by giving an enmity priority type of effect to Paladin by singling it out as the "Leader" or "Commander" of the party (Enemy's would want to 'take out the Leader to lower morale). These leads me to the next part of this idea. Some form of a "Morale" ability for Paladin. An ability like War Cry but with a very mild (1%) boost to multiple things such as: Haste, Fast Cast, Attack, Defense, etc. that doesn't last a long time (like War Cry).

Modifications #1
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/6205-Paladin-Possibilities?p=83337#post83337

Modifications #2
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/6205-Paladin-Possibilities?p=87994#post87994

Modifications #3
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/6205-Paladin-Possibilities?p=90691#post90691

Modifications #4
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/6205-Paladin-Possibilities?p=91091#post91091

Modifications #5
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/6205-Paladin-Possibilities?p=93383#post93383

[Andylynn]

Disclaimer: Until the hate cap is messed with for pld, or removed for pld only, it will more than likely never tank again with the advent of DDs who can safely survive while maintaining capped enmity. Ideas otherwise are henceforth, not much needed, because it is the mechanic that is broken, not the job. Not to be rude, just FYI.

[Fiarlia]

I like the idea of making Cover a Job Trait. Granted, it won't go very far towards fixing PLD, but I still like it nonetheless.

[Urteil]

PLD and DRK still need serious help, I hope that Dev's look into this thoroughly.

[Tamarsamar]

1) Cover

-1A) Make it a Job Trait
Cover is likely one of the most under used job abilities that a Paladin has access to. It is simply impractical to use. Yes, there are other job abilities that Paladin has that are likely used even less but Cover stands out as an actual potentially useful ability with an insane recast timer. The best solution for this? Turn it into a job trait that only works if you are wielding a shield with a high proc rate.

Detailed Explanation: Cover as Job Trait would only require the Paladin be between the person with hate and the enemy (just like the job ability) except this job trait would be active at all times (but not necessarily with a 100% proc rate, I leave that up to the dev team, it could be like Zanshin in respect to not always procing). This solution fixes a lot of problems with paladin AND makes cover itself extremely useful. Paladin itself would no longer need to beat the DDs for hate. Paladin would be able to use their hate to the advantage of the party by simply shielding the person with hate from the enemy.

As a RDM/PLD that likes tanking, this would make me JIMP (in other words, I highly approve). However, this could similarly be exploited with other job combinations--NIN/PLD would immediately come to mind. A way to counterbalance against this would be to allow Cover to cover an area of effect upon being face-to-face with an opponent only when used by a Paladin main job--otherwise, it covers a significantly more limited area behind the player (though hopefully, slightly more forgiving than Cover is now).

Please make this happen, devs!

[Zyeriis]

Modifications #1

1) Cover

-1D) Make it reverse-conal and self-target (Partly Inspired by Tamarsamar)
By this, I mean remove the requirement for it to be cast on some one and make it a self-buff. On top of this, make it so, every one behind you, in a cone-based radius (like a Damselfly's Venom attack) be protected by the Paladin (PLD takes damage for everyone in the conal radius behind him).

3) Enmity

-3A) Raise it or Remove it for PLD specifically
This one is relatively self-explanatory. To make Paladin able to hold hate over the other jobs, enmity in general needs to be tweaked in some manner.

-3B) Provoke Style Ability and Enmity Control
Yes, Paladin has Flash. Is that enough? No. Yes, Paladin can get Provoke from subbing WAR. Is that enough/fair? No. This particular point has been the cry of many a Paladin for years. Why doesn't Paladin get its own form of Provoke? At the very least it would prove interesting to give Paladin more ways to control the enmity of the party. Thief gets some tools for this but, ultimately, Paladin itself does not. So, with this solution, a wider array of sub jobs could very well be opened to Paladin. THF for starters. Rather than having PLD being "Hit me! Hit me!", we could expand it's role, upon other sub jobs, to enable the ability to set hate on other players or upon itself.

What about PLD/DRK? Abilities such as Last Resort, through the sheer use of it, can gain a hefty amount of enmity. Top that with PLD having it's own form of Provoke, and we would also be able to DD a bit better to maintain enmity, whilst curing ourselves, furthering that cause. Altering the enmity cap for PLD (3A) would also support this. There are also other subs that could become potentially more useful in party situations such as /BLU and /RDM. Overall, giving PLD it's own form of Provoke would increase it's versatility greatly.

-3C) Enmity Reset Ability
This is perhaps the most insane idea I've had about adding something to Paladin. A Hate Reset Job ability that affects the whole party (people within the AoE). Using this, and then popping a Provoke or Flash, would re-establish hate on the Paladin, with a clean slate. There would naturally be a risk involved but, ultimately, I believe the benefits would outweigh such a risk and open up Paladin to being more fun, and adding another tactical level to using Paladin as a tank.

I still have more ideas to post but I've decided to dole them out in smaller portions and link them to the primary post (the OP). I'll be back again later to add more.

[Lexin]

PLD will be broken till (I hope) endgame is out of Abyssea.

[Arcon]

Raising/removing enmity cap is no solution at all. The other ideas are not bad. My idea about enmity (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/5603-Enmity).

[Yukichibi]

Cover is the most useless ability for a tank, you take damage instead of someone, so your enmity goes down and the enmity of the people you protect still goes up.
Tossing a cure 4 is better than cover.

An aoe around a PLD which grant pax effect to party members around him sounds a good idea (like avatar favor).
I had already suggested on another thread to make paladin immune to hate reset.
But all those tweaks will be irrevelant in abyssea, and almost irrevelant outside.

[AyinDygra]

I think the cover->trait idea was a good start.

New Job Trait: (unnamed)
Increases enmity gained from casting spells. Works opposite of "Tranquil Heart" that will be added in the next update.

On another line of thinking, Paladin-only spells would be one way to increase their ability to tank. Here are a few that I think fit their role:

Barriers
A line of spells that reduce damage taken from each "type" of damage. If the Paladin takes less damage, they lose less hate. These effects could be made more powerful if the Paladin is equipping a shield.

Different Barriers could be:
Low level, early spells would be 10% Slashing Barrier, Blunt Barrier, Piercing Barrier
High level spells would be 25% Magic Barrier, Physical Barrier, Mega Barrier(all)

The effects I envision would be a direct reduction of damage taken from each specific damage type. The "low level" list would stack with any of the "high level" list, for a maximum reduction of 35% through spell effects (add 5% bonus when equipping a shield). I'm not doing the math, so I don't know if it should stack with "-Damage Taken" gear effects, or simply contribute to the maximum effect when combined with gear effects.

New Spell: Reflect
Reflect one single target spell back at caster. (does not reflect -ga spells, but -ga spells do not remove the reflect status when they hit.)

This doesn't have to be Paladin exclusive, but it's a tactical tool that existed in past FF games, and covers one weak spot in the Paladin's defense. This may best be given to Whm, Rdm (especially Rdm) and Sch, then only much later if added to Pld.

New Spell: Decoy
Self-Target only.
This would grant the opposite effect of Pax to the Paladin.
* The spell cancels Pax, if active, and Pax will never overwrite it. Can be manually canceled.
* This could be a constant (tick based) addition of hate (Cumulative Enmity) over time.
* For the duration it could reduce, or remove, enmity loss through taking damage.

New Spell: Brave (based on the FFT spell)
Single-party member target. (Level 50 Paladin, and later to 75 Rdm?)
* Increases attack +1 per level (max of 99)



Other jobs:
Giving other jobs more tools would also help the Paladin tank.


Thief
Reduce cooldown or separate job ability timers on Accomplice and Collaborator.

Perhaps grant a static additional amount of hate to Trick Attack that is not tied to damage done.

New Job Ability: Caution
Level 30
Reduces the chance of being hit by critical hits. (greatly lower enemy critical hit rate)
* Effects the entire party, like "circle" abilities.
* Increases defensive skill activation rate. (Shield, Guard, Parry, Evade, Counter)


Red Mage
Job Ability: Runic Blade
Duration: 1 min or until any spell is cast within range. (friend or enemy)
Recast: 1min
While wielding a blade (sword, dagger), a Red Mage can stop attacking/casting and intercept any spell cast within range of the effect. Intercepted spells have their effects canceled and the MP cost of the spell is absorbed by the Red Mage.

(of course, if they implement the Job: Runic Knight, I'd rather this be their signature move!)

Used at the right time, the Red Mage could stop a potentially disasterous spell from damaging the group, and get a nice boost to their MP. They will have to be mindful of staying out of range of the other mages in the party, and good communication will be necessary with hybrid DD/Mages in melee range, such as the Paladin this is intended to help.


Ranger
3 related ideas regarding Shadowbind:

Adjust Job Ability Shadowbind
Allow the "Bind" status to remain while people are hitting the monster. Make this a tool that can be used to allow melee and tanks the time they need to get the monster's attention back from whoever it was about to run after. (currently, an attack will cancel the bind effect)

---

Job Ability: Shadowcuffs
While Shadowbind is the equivalent of "Don't Move" from FFTactics, Shadowcuffs would be half of "Don't Act" from FFTactics. This would inflict "Amnesia"
* Inflicts Amnesia.
* Stacks with other "Shadowbinds"

---

Job Ability: Shadowmuzzle
Shadowmuzzle would add "Mute."
(the other half of "Don't Act")
* Inflicts Mute.
* Stacks with other "Shadowbinds"

---

Beastmaster
I have an idea for Beastmaster too but I doubt they'd be very receptive to party-play additions. I may as well put it here.

One of the main areas in which Beastmasters excel is turning monsters against each other, making use of their predatory instincts (food chain).

New Job Ability: Mask Scent
Level 40 (usable as subjob)
Duration: 5min Recast: 15sec
This ability lets you mask your scent, or the scent of others, with the scent of a monster family.
* Targetable on self, alliance member, and pets.
* Requires consumables.
* The effect can be removed with Deodorize or changed by another scent.
* Cannot target enemies to change their monster family.

These Scents/Pheromones have several effects:
* When trying to charm, using the same scent as the target will make charms more successful and last longer.
* Masking your scent allows you to avoid any type of aggro from the same family as the scent you're using. (blend in)
* In battle, using same scent as the target increases enmity, like rivals marking their territory.
* Mask will give the target a separate effect: the killer trait against the prey's family.
Predatory monsters will intimidate someone effected by their prey's scent.
Using the target's predatory scent will lower enmity. (wants to run away from you)
* Killer traits will: Add 5% damage against prey, Add 5% accuracy against prey, Reduce 2.5% damage from prey.
Direct <> enemies only deal 2.5% more damage to each other, and add 5% accuracy against each other.

The effect of the job ability could either be based on the scent in the ammo slot, like Call Jugpet
OR
There could be separate "Mask spells" like Ninjutsu, which simply require the tools to be in the Bst's inventory.

The "Scent" effects go by the "Food Chain" chart:
Plantoids > Beasts > Lizards > Vermin
Amorpha > Birds > Aquans
Dragon <> Demon
Arcana <> Undead
Lumorian <> Luminion

Consumable items (quiverable, stacks of 99) would be needed to work with all encounters with beasts.
Basic items:
A vial of <family> Scent (All jobs)
HQ would create more potent effects, both in enmity increase/decrease and intimidation rate:
A vial of <family> Pheromones (Bst Only)

The use of this ability, in relation to tanking would be:
* Use "Same" family scent on the tank. This would increase enmity.
* Use "Predator" family scent on the other members of the party, granting them the killer effect and enmity down, both very useful.
* Using the "Prey" scent would be very problematic for the group. (don't do it)

---

Dancer
In my Dancer idea thread ( forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/2059-Dancer-ideas), I suggested two abilities that, when combined, would help any tank. They are: Conga (make jigs Area of Effect) and a new Jig: Playful Jig (adds a "Pax" effect, the same enmity-down effect granted by a temporary item in Besieged)

So, a Dancer could Conga/Playful Jig, and then the Paladin could manually remove the Pax effect. That would help greatly, in my opinion.

~*~

There are some of my ideas on how to help Paladins tank.

[Byrth]

As Yukichibi points out, Cover is a fundamentally flawed JA. You "Cover" someone who has more Enmity than you and take hits for them, which reduces your Enmity further and makes it harder to gain more Enmity than the person you're covering. It's a stopgap maneuver that you use when you hope the fight will end soon and you have no way to actually take hate. Making it a job trait would just rearrange party members so that they're all hiding behind the Paladin. It would make Paladin "useful" in that normal DDs wouldn't die to regular attacks, but no one dies to regular attacks at the moment anyway.

What would actually "fix" Cover would be redirecting enmity lost from taking damage during the JA to the players behind you and giving the Paladin some kind of CE bonus for damage mitigated during this time. Then you'd use Cover and come out of it with more Enmity than you entered it with.

It's difficult to justify bringing a Paladin anywhere at the moment because nothing is damaging enough that a DD couldn't tank it. Making Paladin able to hold hate 100% of the time wouldn't really change this. The true "fix" to Paladin is just adding hard monsters to the game outside Abyssea.

[Greatguardian]

It's difficult to justify bringing a Paladin anywhere at the moment because nothing is damaging enough that a DD couldn't tank it. Making Paladin able to hold hate 100% of the time wouldn't really change this. The true "fix" to Paladin is just adding hard monsters to the game outside Abyssea.

Eh, it's arguable that a MNK, DRK, or WAR at the least could still tank better than/as well as PLD even on harder mobs outside Abyssea since they were doing so at 75 anyways. Shields aren't really anything special.

[Byrth]

100% shield block rate, uninterruptability, and immunity to enfeebles (O.Chain) is something special. There's just nothing that really needs it at the moment.

[Greatguardian]

100% shield block rate, uninterruptability, and immunity to enfeebles (O.Chain) is something special. There's just nothing that really needs it at the moment.

D'oh, yes. Ochain is most definitely the exception to the rule. I'm trying to block it out of my memory right now because T2 VNM upgrade rates make me want to put my head through a wall.

[Byrth]

Haha, one of my friends is having a moderate amount of success buying VNM T3s for 250k each. One other idea would be to make Gamayun parties for people and require they have Colorfuls and give you the resulting Maeres. Saves you farming Colorfuls at least.

[Zyeriis]

The cover idea is just a start. Byrth, I am well aware that it doesn't give the PLD itself any form of enmity, and technically, indirectly, ends up lowering their enmity in the long run. That argument has little to do with it though. That's going to be the case no matter what if they're the ones being hit. They're tanking in either scenario, changing cover to a job trait merely makes it so they can tank without having to have hate.

As for: "everyone will just hide behind the Paladin", No this is also a false assumption. Enemies with conal attacks, Thief, limited space behind the Paladin, Rangers, Mages, etc. This also would work quite nicely with "Overwhelm" from Samurai. Pre-Abyssea, what job was a general nuissance to Paladin's because they could spam TP and get hate? Samurai's and Job/Samurai. What was Samurai's originally intended role? A tank. Cover as a job trait could just as well result in a change of dynamic here by having Samurais spam hate, behind a Paladin, stacked with overwhelm, and using Seigan Third Eye to protect themselves from the occassional un-covered attack that gets thrown their way.

Though, again, like I said, there are many solutions or changes to the solutions I've thus far brought up that I have yet to add. (I take thing slowly because of people who just "tl;dr") I'm not saying your points (aside from cover as a job trait having little to no value) are wrong, I'm saying they aren't the only possibilities: which is the title of the thread.

[Yukichibi]

PLD should gain enmity when it takes damage, at least from physical damage, the more it takes, the more he wants (sound like a masochist), he is an insult to the monster strengh and ferocity. (could be a job trait: Taunt or Kinght Challenge)

Making PLD immune to hate reset would place PLD in front line again for some annoying NMs, even if you can still do them without one, it's easier if you have a PLD to lock the enemy.

Those 2 small patches can maybe solve some enmity issue without turning PLD in a DD. (and repair cover by the way)

It is clear that the easiest way is to enhance PLD damage output, so he could keep and grab hate easier, but it ll become maybe the best DD if it's not done correctly because of his survability.

[Duelle]

Red Mage
Job Ability: Runic Blade
Duration: 1 min or until any spell is cast within range. (friend or enemy)
Recast: 1min
While wielding a blade (sword, dagger), a Red Mage can stop attacking/casting and intercept any spell cast within range of the effect. Intercepted spells have their effects canceled and the MP cost of the spell is absorbed by the Red Mage.

Used at the right time, the Red Mage could stop a potentially disasterous spell from damaging the group, and get a nice boost to their MP. They will have to be mindful of staying out of range of the other mages in the party, and good communication will be necessary with hybrid DD/Mages in melee range, such as the Paladin this is intended to help.I mentioned this in the Runic Blade thread on the RDM sub-forums, but there's some tweaks that might be needed for that. Firstly the total damage done by the spell would have to be halved, and half of the MP cost of the spell would be abosrbed by the RDM. I only mention this because Runic as is would mean that one could possibly cheese spells that are supposed to kill a player or otherwise heavily damage the party as part of the encounter mechanic.

[AyinDygra]

I only mention this because Runic as is would mean that one could possibly cheese spells that are supposed to kill a player or otherwise heavily damage the party as part of the encounter mechanic.

In those rare instances where such a spell is part of the "encounter mechanic" (I can't think of any), I'm sure it could be programmed around by not allowing Runic to absorb certain spells as in FF6 (meteor, banish, flood, meltdown, quake, teleport, tornado)


Anyway, one more idea, that's not directly related to the Paladin Job, but could be accessed via subjob (as I envision Runic Blade to be Rdm main, but sub-able by Paladin)

Warrior
Job Ability: Enrage
Level 40 War
Casting time: Instant
Duration: 10-20 seconds
Recast: 1min
Acts like provoke, but gives the target a short-duration new effect: "Enraged"
* Should be an enmity building tool like Provoke.
* Adds the Attack-up and Defense-down of Berserk on the target for the duration of the "Enraged" effect.
* Adds Amnesia + Mute on target for the duration of the "Enraged" effect.

Paladins could make much better use of an ability like this than the Warrior, but it feels right to be given to Warrior mains.

[Kjara]

100% shield block rate, uninterruptability, and immunity to enfeebles (O.Chain) is something special. There's just nothing that really needs it at the moment.

Or, if 100% block rate is just too much, SE could just bring shield blocking back to how it originally was. Back when shield block = 0 dmg taken. SE changed that because it was too much game breaking but I think now it would be wise to reinstate it to compete with all those evasion/counter tanks. The game as it is now just screams "if you get damaged gtfo" and this is why people will take eva tanks over blood tanks.

[Glamdring]

The new Grounds of Valor/Monster distribution is gonna help you a ton paladins (and bard, cor and rangers for that matter). Abyssea has given evasion tanks a false sense of their utility. Against normal mobs-without Atma, Cruor buffs and a Brew for fall back-they are going to get a quick reminder of Mortality. Expect to see a ton of whining posts from those players about how SE needs to "fix" the new content so they can tank. The reason is that most Aby-type players haven't fought the new level 90ish regular mobs in ToAU, Campaign and CoP areas to see that traditional party roles are needed, as well as hate control and all those party mechanics that veteran players actually miss. You know, when skill as a player actually played a part in this game...

[Kjara]

I'm afraid most of players will be too afraid of the world outside of abyssea to even try it, unless SE gives them very good reasons to do so (and I doubt they will release anything more rewarding than AF3/empyrean any soon).

[Ravenmore]

With most jobs hitting or really close to haste cap its going to be hard for SE to put in gear that would make people fight the new mobs outside of of abyssea. There will be the some who will fight the mobs to be some of the first to kill them but most will wait and see if they drop anything.

[AyinDygra]

Another idea came to me.

Job Trait: Righteous Heart
Level 50
Divine Magic is more effective when cast on Paladins.
* Cure spells get a boost to healing power when cast on a Paladin. The "extra" enmity caused by the "extra" healing is given to the Paladin.
* Cursna always removes doom from the Paladin.
* Paladin gets a very high natural resistance to doom and death.

[Arcon]

With most jobs hitting or really close to haste cap its going to be hard for SE to put in gear that would make people fight the new mobs outside of of abyssea. There will be the some who will fight the mobs to be some of the first to kill them but most will wait and see if they drop anything.

Haste is far from everything. Some jobs could cap haste before Abyssea, yet they completely reworked their gear. Why? Capping Haste in less slots means other slots can be used for something better. That's why high Haste gear will always be in demand, until we approach the Haste cap in a single slot.

[Ravenmore]

Haste and STP are what most DDs go for. With af3 capping both is easier then ever. Might be some sit gear but I really only see side grades coming. Thing is there is nothing better then haste followed by STP.

Now pld could get more enmity gear or cure pot gear with enmity on it. Maybe a new set of MAB gear to replace Iron ram. Though new DD gear for pld might be better. A slight DD update or JT/JA to boost emnity gained for cureing self and party members seeing how /rdm with the next update is really dead now. Subbing rdm was still best sub for tanking mobs that were really ga hppy outside of abyssea.

[Zumi]

If they aren't going to fix tanking they should just make Paladin into a melee dps job like everything else. You can play it like a melee damage job but it is middle tier at best.

[Zyeriis]

Modifications #2

3) Enmity

-3D) Taunt (Inspired by Yukichibi)
While Sentinel increases enmity, it's more prominent aspect is that is also reduces damage significantly. Then there's rampart which while producing enmity (because all actions produce enmity) increases defense and magic defense. Both of these abilities last for short amounts of time. The idea this time is a third job ability to complement cover and other abilities. Taunt's duration would be as long as it's recast. However, it would share a timer with one of Paladin's other job abilities (Sentinel or Rampart, etc.).

How would it work, what does it do? That is relatively simple, while under the effect of taunt, if you are hit, an animation goes off, much like a spikes spell. The enemy would not take damage like it would from a spike spell, instead, enmity for other players currently on it's enmity list would drop slightly and the Paladin's enmity would increase slightly per hit. Note that this does not involve removing the "if you get hit, you lose enmity". The amount of enmity gained/lost while this ability is up would be a static number not a number based upon the amount of damage taken. Thus, more damage taken means more enmity lost like it does right now. Tack on a stoneskin like capacity for damage taken to this job ability with a slight difference. Rather than an a damage capacity that increases upon each hit, it would be a damage capacity limit on the single attack. Meaning, the ability could wear off immediately if hit with, let's say an attack that deals 700+ damage, whilst if you take 100 damage 7 times in a row, the effect wouldn't wear off.

It is a complicated concept, I know, if this needs clarification, please let me know.

-3E) Steadfast
This is similar to the Taunt idea but with different aspects to it. Like the Taunt idea, damage dealt to the Paladin would result in slight enmity scaling toward the paladin from other party members. Here are the differences. While active, steadfast would disable your ability to move (with a non-erasable bind). It would also disable your ability to get knocked back by enemy attacks (in a way of "taunting" the enemy's attempts).


4) Light-Based/Divine Magic

-4A) Banish/Holy
These two spells are probably the most useless "nuking" spells in the game. Why is that? Why can't they be on par with nuke spells of the other elements (Fire/Blizzard/Aero/Stone/Thunder/Water)? These massively underpowered spells need more tiers, and more power to begin with. Why not give them to Paladin since Paladin already has access to Banish 1 + 2 and Holy? Banish III goes to WHM, why not PLD? There is even Banish IV, however Banish IV is only usuable by Summoner at level 90 with light spirit(who the hell uses spirits for anything other than siphon?), which weird enough in itself, is completely bizarre that Summoner gets it yet WHM and PLD do not.

Naturally, this "solution" wouldn't change much. Unless of course, they added banish/holy to yellow procs in abyssea but that is besides the point. Paladin is lacking on it's light-based/divine attacks aspect. Enlight slightly corrected this flaw in Paladin's design but it is simply not enough. PLD (and WHM) need an overhaul on light-based spells that damage enemies.

-4B) Dia
Even more so than Banish and Holy, what Paladin really needs on a light elemental attack side basis is Dia. Dia was originally Divine Magic, which RDM has an E in while PLD has a B+ (only beaten by WHM with an A-). Why they changed Dia to enfeebling magic is beyond me, seeing as it's opposing force: Bio has always and still is considered dark magic. The matter is simple: Return Dia back to being a divine magic spell and give it to PLD.

Naturally, just like Banish/Holy, simply doing this would not actually fix PLD. It would be a mere stepping stone to re-purposing/returning to PLDs true concept: A Holy Knight. On top of Dia being added to PLD, they need to create newer divine magic spells to give to PLD, to further differentiate it from RDM (admittedly adding Dia to PLD is a step in the wrong direction on this but I digress and re-iterate that it's a stepping stone idea).


5) Shields

-5A) Retro shields back to 0 damage while blocking (Courtesy of Kjara)

SE could just bring shield blocking back to how it originally was. Back when shield block = 0 dmg taken. SE changed that because it was too much game breaking but I think now it would be wise to reinstate it to compete with all those evasion/counter tanks. The game as it is now just screams "if you get damaged gtfo" and this is why people will take eva tanks over blood tanks.

[TybudX]

1. Make PLD single wield DD on par with real DDs, including access to a high damage WS that isn't CDC.

2. Give PLD native pdt- and mdt- traits so that they can do what they were designed to do without gimping up their damage.

3. ???

4. Profit.

You need the first one for PLD to be a realistic 'tank' under the current FFXI paradigm. You need the second to make PLD a desired 'tank' under the current FFXI paradigm. Maybe give them access to a couple more Stuns with the shield and such. Adjusting Shield Mastery to be more meaningful (at least make it affected by sTP) couldn't hurt, either.

edit -
The new Grounds of Valor/Monster distribution is gonna help you a ton paladins (and bard, cor and rangers for that matter). Abyssea has given evasion tanks a false sense of their utility. Against normal mobs-without Atma, Cruor buffs and a Brew for fall back-they are going to get a quick reminder of Mortality. Expect to see a ton of whining posts from those players about how SE needs to "fix" the new content so they can tank. The reason is that most Aby-type players haven't fought the new level 90ish regular mobs in ToAU, Campaign and CoP areas to see that traditional party roles are needed, as well as hate control and all those party mechanics that veteran players actually miss. You know, when skill as a player actually played a part in this game...

What is this I don't even...
Look. I've tanked everything a PLD can stand in front of and swing at on WAR, long before Abyssea was a twinkle in anybody's eye. I've tanked everything PLD can't stand in front of and can't swing at on RDM. What you nostalgic 'veterans' need to understand is that 'traditional party roles' were never needed, and the only skill required was understanding how to use food, stack buffs, stack debuffs, and kill faster. Abyssea is just a gross exaggeration of what the game was before; now everybody knows it works.

[Arcon]

-4A) Banish/Holy

They have very situational uses, but I don't know if they should be there in the first place. PLD is not a nuker and personally I wouldn't want them to be.


5) Shields

-5A) Retro shields back to 0 damage while blocking (Courtesy of Kjara)

Permanent Invincible? A little overpowered in my eyes. Even Ochain is quite overpowered in my eyes.


1. Make PLD single wield DD on par with real DDs, including access to a high damage WS that isn't CDC.

Can't really agree here. PLD was never a DD, and imo it shouldn't be. What needs revamping is said current FFXI paradigm. Make survival an issue, and give PLD better survival options, along with a change to the current enmity system. Higher HP would be another thing, better curing options. Reprisal was a very nice addition, something like that, something that boosts PLD's native strengths is just what the job needs.

[Zyeriis]

How is that permanent invincible?

Your shield skill procs on every attack? Your shield helps against magic-damage tp moves?

As for banish/holy, I didn't intend for it to be a switch to nuker class. Holy isn't really situational, it is pretty much complete garbage mp wise and damage wise. Banish I can kind of understand having uses due to its ability to weaken mobs but still, how many white mages do you see using banish 3 in normal circumstances? That possibility point was entirely based in the notion that Paladin is supposed to be the job that fights with light, while dark knight fights with darkness. Dark Knight lives up to it's concept far better than Paladin does in this respect and the upgrade light-based offensive moves for Paladin was conceived from this.

As for PLD not being a DD, I completely agree. I did not level Paladin to be a DD, I leveled it to be able to protect people from damage by taking it on myself. That is why I have Samurai and Dragoon to DD with.

[Darka]

Yes shield helps against TP moves unless they're magical (in which case Invincible wouldn't work either).

PLD isn't going to be fixed by adding extra enmity tools or gear, enmity caps, for all jobs, at the same level. It's difficult to adjust this mechanic without breaking the game entirely.

If PLD recieves a higher enmity cap, PLD could achieve and sustain this cap, and no other mage or DD would be able to surpass this. Meaning the PLD will always have hate, and DDs can go balls to the wall with damage and never worrying about pulling hate. Mages would only have to focus on the PLD and whatever AoE damage is done. Problem? I think so.

Lowering enmity from damage? Same as above, but in reverse. DDs would generate so little enmity the above situation would happen again. That and mages would rip hate of DDs like crazy.

Raise cure enmity? Mages out tank everything, and we're back to RDM tanking.

Remove DDs defensive abilities? Yeah that'd kill lowman, something nobody would want, and effectively revamp the game as we know it.

A logical solution is to include NMs that deal ridiculous damage, and make PLD the only job able to tank it. But then we're back to 2005, and nobody would like this.

It's not so simple as adding enmity abilities or whatever, PLD needs more damage to compete, but then it's just another DD.

[Zyeriis]

Raising enmity cap for PLD ever so slightly would still work as enmity lost from damage and other things would still cause hate shifting, then there's also hate reset moves and enemies with random/different enmity schemes. Naturally, not all enemies can do such things but thats why we have other jobs?

Raising the enmity cap slightly for PLD would not mean they would be able to sustain it at all times. A Majority of the time, yes, but isn't that what PLD is supposed to do? Giving PLD more physical damage accomplishes nothing but make it into a just another DD that can cure itself, which is stupid and not a Paladin. You did say something along the lines of this but used the word "need" thus making me think thats the "solution" you support. Also, no one said it was simple, that's why there is a growing list of "possibilities". Many of these would fit well together to create another dynamic such as the steadfast and cover ideas.

I will have more to add soon.

[Xilk]

Cover is the most useless ability for a tank, you take damage instead of someone, so your enmity goes down and the enmity of the people you protect still goes up.
Tossing a cure 4 is better than cover.

An aoe around a PLD which grant pax effect to party members around him sounds a good idea (like avatar favor).
I had already suggested on another thread to make paladin immune to hate reset.
But all those tweaks will be irrevelant in abyssea, and almost irrevelant outside.

If cover were a trait instead, then even if someone else took hate, they can just stand behind the paladin. Another player's hate would contribute to the paladin's tanking.

Its a very elegant solution.

[Kjara]

Permanent Invincible? A little overpowered in my eyes.

It's not permanent Invincible. If you look at it, that's just how MNK's counter works. The only difference is that Shield Block is skill based, and it doesn't damage the enemy back. So I think it's a humble request.

[Malamasala]

A Majority of the time, yes, but isn't that what PLD is supposed to do?

You are supposed to use strategy. Avatars for example are excellent tanks. But you don't see every Summoner in town complaining that they are terrible at getting hate. Instead we accept that to let an avatar tank, we need to keep all other form of damage low.

I'm all for buffing PLD though, as long as avatars get equal treatment because while they are made for tanking, they can't hold hate at all. Though for anyone to agree with me, we have to rename Titan to Tankan, else people will look forever at which part of Summoner says tank, while Paladin obviously screams tank.

[Greatguardian]

It's not permanent Invincible. If you look at it, that's just how MNK's counter works. The only difference is that Shield Block is skill based, and it doesn't damage the enemy back. So I think it's a humble request.

It is if you have an Ochain, which definitely does have to be kept in mind since it's really not a "rare" or "difficult to acquire" shield. Also, Shields block TP moves and grant TP where Counters do not, and Counter hard caps at 75% where Ochain blocks at 90%+. Buffing shield in general is a poor choice when Ochain is already god-mode overpowered. Anything they give Shield as a whole has the potential to make Ochain PLD literally invincible.

[Zyeriis]

Modifications #3

1) Cover

-1A) Make it a Job Trait

--1a) Aura
This is a variant of the 1A idea. Rather than requiring you be between the enemy and the player with hate, thus resulting in potential for "everyone stand behind the PLD" mentality (even if obscure) make it into a job trait that creates an aura (area of effect) around the Paladin. Party members within the area of effect, if they have hate and are being attacked, would have a chance to get "Covered" by the Paladin on each hit. The proc rate for this would be relatively low (at least not as high as it would be with 1A). This would make Cover into a trait that is a more classic final fantasy cover mechanic, where the paladin randomly blocks an attack made upon a party member.

How would it visually work? The Paladin's character model would suddenly appear between the person being attacked and the monster (while temporarily disappearing from where they are currently standing), show the Paladin doing a blocking motion and then disappearing and reappearing at the original location of the player (somewhat like super jump on dragoons without the delay). Add on enmity gain when this procs to redirect hate at the paladin for getting in the enemy's way as well.

3) Enmity

-3F) Enmity transfer Job Ability
This is not a simple "Use this ability on some one else and take their enmity" job ability idea. This is another job ability similar to Rampart that hits everyone within range of the AoE. The difference is that this job ability would result in an enmity siphon effect where the Paladin would draw the enmity levels from anyone being attack that is placed under this effect when the Paladin uses the ability. The enmity that they lose from various actions (or from being hit) would, instead of disappearing, be transfered to the Paladin. The ability would also siphon enmity (very slowly) from everyone under the effect that has enmity but, only to a certain point (as in no one under the effect would be able to lose more than X% of their enmity while under the effect). The X% being reached could also lead to the removal/loss of the status effect for that person. When I say X%, it is a number that I cannot determine, as that would be a balancing issue.

In this manner, Paladin would be able to slightly overcome the enmity cap (temporarily) so long as some one else gets hate (and then loses some enmity) and the Paladin is currently under the effect of the job ability. The job ability itself would have a recast timer that exceeds its effect duration like sentinel and rampart do, so as to not make this enmity cap breaking ability permanent.

Why add this? This ability would not be for the early stages of battle, wherein the Paladin is able to hold hate as it, and other party members reach the enmity cap. The current problem with things as they are now is that melee DD can reach the cap as well and draw hate. This ability would be for later in the battle when they do steal hate (while both they and the Paladin are at max enmity) to continue to tank awhile longer due to the other party member's enmity dropping while under the effect of the job ability and the Paladin's breaking cap simultaneously, albeit temporarily (until other abilities such as sentinel can be used again).

[Akujima]

1) Cover

-1A) Make it a Job Trait
Cover is likely one of the most under used job abilities that a Paladin has access to. It is simply impractical to use. Yes, there are other job abilities that Paladin has that are likely used even less but Cover stands out as an actual potentially useful ability with an insane recast timer. The best solution for this? Turn it into a job trait that only works if you are wielding a shield with a high proc rate.

Detailed Explanation: Cover as Job Trait would only require the Paladin be between the person with hate and the enemy (just like the job ability) except this job trait would be active at all times (but not necessarily with a 100% proc rate, I leave that up to the dev team, it could be like Zanshin in respect to not always procing). This solution fixes a lot of problems with paladin AND makes cover itself extremely useful. Paladin itself would no longer need to beat the DDs for hate. Paladin would be able to use their hate to the advantage of the party by simply shielding the person with hate from the enemy.

Very nice indeed. I like this because it adds dynamics to gameplay. This along with an enmity boost and a PLD specific "provoke" could make PLD useful again.

EDIT: Nevermind, I just read this and realized about the whole "Everyone stand behind the PLD mentality" that would occur.


Modifications #3

1) Cover

-1A) Make it a Job Trait

--1a) Aura
This is a variant of the 1A idea. Rather than requiring you be between the enemy and the player with hate, thus resulting in potential for "everyone stand behind the PLD" mentality (even if obscure) make it into a job trait that creates an aura (area of effect) around the Paladin. Party members within the area of effect, if they have hate and are being attacked, would have a chance to get "Covered" by the Paladin on each hit. The proc rate for this would be relatively low (at least not as high as it would be with 1A). This would make Cover into a trait that is a more classic final fantasy cover mechanic, where the paladin randomly blocks an attack made upon a party member.

How would it visually work? The Paladin's character model would suddenly appear between the person being attacked and the monster (while temporarily disappearing from where they are currently standing), show the Paladin doing a blocking motion and then disappearing and reappearing at the original location of the player (somewhat like super jump on dragoons without the delay). Add on enmity gain when this procs to redirect hate at the paladin for getting in the enemy's way as well.

But, I agree. Definately something done with Cover can be done. And also your Enmity JA sounds pretty interesting, but I'll have to read it once more to wrap my head around it lol...

Good ideas man.

[Martel]

It is if you have an Ochain, which definitely does have to be kept in mind since it's really not a "rare" or "difficult to acquire" shield. Also, Shields block TP moves and grant TP where Counters do not, and Counter hard caps at 75% where Ochain blocks at 90%+. Buffing shield in general is a poor choice when Ochain is already god-mode overpowered. Anything they give Shield as a whole has the potential to make Ochain PLD literally invincible.

Ochain can reach 100% block rate. 90%'ish is what you typically see on the current high lvl NMs(Raja, Rani, that kinda stuff.) I haven't got to any higher lvl shield skill tests yet, but I'd assume you could push that value up with more skill.

I wouldn't call Ochain God-mode Overpowered. It still has the usual weaknesses. Anything with powerful, frequent magic damage is still gonna kick your ass. Any status not induced by a physical WS still causes problems. Terror, in particular, is bad. Can't cure it, can't block, get owned.

In SE parlance, "Working as intended." Amazing VS. purely physical threats, but not any different against magical ones. And magical DMG is usually the more dangerous one.

[Akujima]

As for PLD not being a DD, I completely agree. I did not level Paladin to be a DD, I leveled it to be able to protect people from damage by taking it on myself. That is why I have Samurai and Dragoon to DD with.

I totally agree with this 1000%

We need to keep the characteristics of jobs intact. Less of this whining about "Why can't my BRD melee!?" that only blurs the line between jobs, making them all bland and tasteless.

[Zyeriis]

Modifications #4

1) Cover

-1E) Reverse Enmity Loss while covering some one
This idea is likely the simplest so far, regarding cover. While you are covering some one with cover in it's current form, you are essentially getting in the enemy's way. Attacks you take are in technicality directed at the person behind you, not you. Thus, Cover should be adjusted to lower the enmity of the person you are protecting whilst at the same time, increasing your enmity because you are aggravating the enemy by blocking it from it's intended target. You shouldn't lose enmity while covering some one else basically (from damage or otherwise).

3) Enmity

-3A) Raise it or Remove it for PLD specifically

--3a) Slight raise to enmity (Paladin specific)
This is a clarification addition to the enmity cap paladin-specific raise. Some might argue that raising the enmity cap for Paladin only is game breaking and then Paladin would be able to hold hate 100% of the time. This is simply not true depending on the degree of the increase. Increasing the cap enough that Paladin would be able to take and hold hate with a hate grabbing ability (provoke, flash, animating flourish) while not increasing it so much that a few hits wouldn't drop the Paladin's enmity back down below the enmity cap of other jobs wouldn't upset the "difficulty" of holding hate. It would merely allow Paladin to have a slight edge in enmity/hate, making them more viable in this position while blood tanking, which is their intended role.

--3b) Raise the enmity cap across the board, significantly
People can and do argue that any DD job can out enmity-gain a Paladin. This is a possibility (not necessarily the truth). While this is a problem, which there are solutions for in and of itself (see 3B: Paladin Provoke Style Ability and Enmity Control). That is a separate problem, even though it does affect enmity in it's current state. Raising the enmity cap in general would allow for Paladin (with greater enmity gaining capabilities) to prolong how long it can hold hate. Raising the enmity cap would prolong the time it takes to reach the enmity cap. If Paladin can gain enmity faster through job abilities and spells than DDs spamming damage, then Paladin would be able to hold hate for longer before the enmity cap is reached.

Granted this would not solve the issue of what would occur when the DDs catch up because the PLD is stuck at the cap but, this solution is about prolonging this eventuality, not getting rid of it. Raising the enmity cap may also cause some type of disturbance mage-side because, let's face it, no one can gain enmity better than a careless mage. However, with job traits like Tranquil Heart appearing on the horizon for Red Mage, and White Mages smart enough to know that enmity - gear is brilliant, this may be less of a problem then I (or anyone else) make it out to be.

5) Shields

-5B) Magic Deflection
Disclaimer: This is potential the most potentially over-powered idea I've come up with thus far. This idea will likely spark discussion, some bad, some good. Try to keep it constructive and on-topic.

Magic evasion. This term denotes "resisting" a magic spell such as fire, reducing it's damage but not annulling its damage. "1 of Player's shadows absorbs the damage and disappears" denotes a player annulling an attack (magic or physical) completely by sacrificing a magical buff and is referred to as "Blink tanking". "Blink tanking" has become extremely popular these days in Abyssea. While not the only reason that Paladin has been left in the dust, it is still one of the big ones.

So, how can Paladin overcome this clear disadvantage? Some will say stack MDB and MDT- gear. While right, it is not always practical to do so, is it? Paladin's will still take damage to some extent (perhaps not even that much less) and will still lose enmity. Enmity, the greatest need of a tank (can't tank if the mob isn't interested in you anymore). Then come people who claim that Paladin needs more DD capabilities to hold that enmity. There is a conflict here. If they give Paladin more DD capabilities then they'll be expected to use DD gear primarily. Where goes that MDB and MDT- gear? Into a macro that you use while the enemy is casting? Yes, that could work, some times but the Paladin would still take damage and still lose enmity.

What does that leave us with? A relatively endless cycle of inevitably that is enmity loss (first because we still take damage from single target magic spells and second because if we switch between melee to MDB gear when it's casting, we're no longer gaining as much enmity to keep up while subsequently losing enmity when we get hit with the spell and take damage anyway).

I am aware, that thus far I haven't actually offered the solution. I needed to affirm the train of thought this idea came from (or at least to try). In any case, the idea here is to add another sub-proc to shield procs against physical attacks. Add a proc against single target magic attacks. Using the shield to "deflect" incoming magic at random (more random than a normal shield proc but not overly random as to make it useless). This does not replace utsusemi tanking as it is not a guaranteed success. However, being able to deflect potential enmity-losing, death-inducing damage with a Paladin's signature shield would be a welcomed addition to a relatively forgotten job.

[Zyeriis]

No one has any input on the later entries to the list?

[Akujima]

No one has any input on the later entries to the list?

PLD was one of the most loved/wanted/needed jobs Pre-Abyssea.

The real thing SE needs to look at before implementing major upgrades to combat, jobs, etc, is how the playerbase is going to react. Unfortunately for FFXI, alot of the playerbase just wants to do things "quickly and efficiently" all the time, and there's nothing wrong with wanting to be efficient. But what SE failed to realize, is the characteristics of certain jobs, and how they work in relation to one another.

Without realizing these characteristics, they'll continue to create an imbalance between the jobs. Jobs will be left out by players if there is no "NEED" for them anymore. Melee can take hits easily now, very easily. There's no fear of being KO'd anymore if the Enemy/Boss takes a few swings at you.

PLD is a tank, and should always be a tank. As far as how to fix PLD, you have some great idea's. But I think the general issue on the concept of "Tanking" needs to be addressed.

[Greatguardian]

PLD was one of the most loved/wanted/needed jobs Pre-Abyssea.

Only among low/mid-tier linkshells and players who generally did not know better. This has not been the case in the Endgame scene for the better part of half a decade now (2007-ish?). Half a dozen jobs all tanked better than Paladin before Abyssea, and still tank better than Paladin now.


The real thing SE needs to look at before implementing major upgrades to combat, jobs, etc, is how the playerbase is going to react. Unfortunately for FFXI, alot of the playerbase just wants to do things "quickly and efficiently" all the time, and there's nothing wrong with wanting to be efficient. But what SE failed to realize, is the characteristics of certain jobs, and how they work in relation to one another.

Without realizing these characteristics, they'll continue to create an imbalance between the jobs. Jobs will be left out by players if there is no "NEED" for them anymore. Melee can take hits easily now, very easily. There's no fear of being KO'd anymore if the Enemy/Boss takes a few swings at you.

Melee could always take hits. Like, seriously, this has never been a problem for melees. The only reason DD jobs got a bad rap for "Dying easily" is because most DDs sucked and didn't carry PDT/MDT sets. A Monk with 40 Def and -50% PDT in gear is going to take way less damage than a "Typical/Classic" Paladin in 600 Defense and 0 PDT.


PLD is a tank, and should always be a tank. As far as how to fix PLD, you have some great idea's. But I think the general issue on the concept of "Tanking" needs to be addressed.

Paladin is a sword wielding Melee job with access to White Magic, Shield bonuses, and some Defensive traits/JA. Whether or not that equates to being a tank is up to the players. As it stands, that particular combination is lackluster at best. Tanks do much better avoiding hits entirely than they would "Taking them for less damage". I had to put less damage in quotes because Paladin really doesn't take less damage than anyone else without an Ochain.

[Akujima]

Paladin is a sword wielding Melee job with access to White Magic, Shield bonuses, and some Defensive traits/JA. Whether or not that equates to being a tank is up to the players.

So let's talk about this.

You want everything to be entirely left up to the players? So what is the challenge and fun, in running through a maze that you built yourself? You're going to know every angle, every correct turn and will be near impossible to get lost. Why? Because YOU built it.

The quote above is kind of like saying "Oh WHM is a club wielding job, that has access to White Magic, Club Skills and lots of MP. Whether or not that equates to being a healer is up to the players"

Lol...

[Greatguardian]

So let's talk about this.

Okay.


You want everything to be entirely left up to the players?

Until it is against the ToS to play jobs any way the players want, this will always be the case.


So what is the challenge and fun, in running through a maze that you built yourself? You're going to know every angle, every correct turn and will be near impossible to get lost. Why? Because YOU built it.

No. This is an incorrect analogy. The Developers build the maze. The Players then determine the fastest/best/most efficient course throughout the maze. When Route A takes twice as much time and energy to traverse as Route B, Route A will likely be discarded in favor of Route B.


The quote above is kind of like saying "Oh WHM is a club wielding job, that has access to White Magic, Club Skills and lots of MP. Whether or not that equates to being a healer is up to the players"

Lol...

White Mage doesn't have to be a healer. It is simply well equipped to be a healer. Whether or not it is efficient for White Mage to be a healer is left to the determination of the player base.

[Akujima]

No. This is an incorrect analogy. The Developers build the maze. The Players then determine the fastest/best/most efficient course throughout the maze. When Route A takes twice as much time and energy to traverse as Route B, Route A will likely be discarded in favor of Route B.

White Mage doesn't have to be a healer. It is simply well equipped to be a healer. Whether or not it is efficient for White Mage to be a healer is left to the determination of the player base.

You're assuming that there is 2 correct ways to exit the maze. When in reality, all routes lead to a dead-end except 1. All Routes except Route 1 are incorrect.


As far as leaving how the job is played to the player base... This is exactly the reason why tons of jobs get excluded and are labeled as "Crap".


I will give you one thing GG. You are quite good in twisting others words and concepts, in order for people to sympathize with your point of view. Try harder next time.

[Greatguardian]

You're assuming that there is 2 correct ways to exit the maze. When in reality, all routes lead to a dead-end except one. All Routes except Route A are incorrect.


As far as leaving how the job is played to the player base... This is exactly the reason why tons of jobs get excluded and are labeled as "Crap".


I will give you one thing GG. You are quite good in twisting others words and concepts, in order for others to sympathize with your point of view. Try harder next time.

I never assumed there were two routes. Would you rather I had included 3 routes in my expository? 4? There are an infinite number of routes in any given maze when the player is free to move in all four directions. Players will still find the fastest/most efficient route. Players can also eliminate a near infinite amount of routes via common sense. It would not be prudent to go forward and then immediately take a step backwards. Nor would it be at all smart to repeat the above process multiple times. I figured that was common sense.

As for twisting words, kindly refrain from projecting your angst onto me. I have not twisted anything. I have taken your words at face value. Do not blame me if you find yourself unable to properly convey what it is you are trying to say.

[Akujima]

PLD was one of the most loved/wanted/needed jobs Pre-Abyssea.
Only among low/mid-tier linkshells and players who generally did not know better.


Do not blame me if you find yourself unable to properly convey what it is you are trying to say.

Do not tell me "You don't know any better" if you can't figure out what it is I'm trying to say in the first place: The general issue on the "Concept" of Tanking needs to be addressed.

Concept. Concept. Concept. Do you understand what the word means? Because I clearly remember having to explain myself over and over again in "A Ninja without Throwing".

[Greatguardian]

Do not tell me "You don't know any better" if you can't figure out what it is I'm trying to say in the first place: The general issue on the "Concept" of Tanking needs to be addressed.

Concept. Concept. Concept. Do you understand what the word means? Because I clearly remember having to explain myself over and over again in "A Ninja without Throwing".

The concept of Tanking, the Paladin job, and the desirability/love/adoration of Paladin pre-Abyssea are three different things. I will not address them together, as that would be a fallacy.

1) Desirability of Paladin pre-Abyssea:

As I already said, only mid/low-tier shells "Loved" Paladin as much as you claim it was loved. Good shells were already using Monk, Samurai, and Dark Knight tanks and killing things twice as fast. In these shells, the only Paladins were pretty much just the established oldies who loved their Aegis/Excal shinies. No Endgame Linkshell of any tier ever needed "More" Paladins. It was not in high demand. Either a shell had their tanks (whether they're Drks, Sams, Rdms, Mnks, or Plds), or they didn't and they weren't really a shell.

2) The Paladin Job:

I actually don't have anything more to say about Paladin. You haven't said anything about Paladin either. I'll leave this as is, as it is moot.

3) The concept of tanking:

It is always better to not get hit than to get hit. Period. Always. Every single time. Zero is always less than any positive number. That is all there is to it. As long as the option to not get hit exists, getting hit will never, ever be preferable, let alone ideal.

[Akujima]

3) The concept of tanking:

It is always better to not get hit than to get hit. Period. Always. Every single time. Zero is always less than any positive number. That is all there is to it. As long as the option to not get hit exists, getting hit will never, ever be preferable, let alone ideal.

How about this.

Just don't engage in combat ever. Doing that will make you less likely to ever be hit at all.

[Greatguardian]

How about this.

Just don't engage in combat ever. Doing that will make you less likely to ever be hit at all.

I can engage in combat and still not get hit. Two birds with one stone. Booyah.

[Zyeriis]

@greatguardian
Arguing about the player's past and present views upon Paladin, regardless of the legitimacy of those views does nothing to further the thought process behind coming up with ways to adjust and repair Paladin as a job.

It. has. nothing. to. do. with. it.

The job is broken, you clearly believe that, so what's your problem? What is your argument? You offer absolutely nothing to the thread, all you do is bring up how much better other jobs are at specific aspects of tanking. So what? That means we shouldn't bother trying to think of ways to correct this? What players think the job currently is, is completely irrelevant to the discussion about making the job useful again. They only serve as the reasons WHY there needs to be a change.

Gear also is not a solution to a job that is broken at it's core just because it's easy to obtain. If that were true, I want them to break every other job in the game and make it so the only way to make those jobs useful is through gear. Oh wait, then how would we get the gear?

Maze analogies? Fine, tell me a reason why they can't make Route A and Route B, the same distance. Things that are different, can't be equal? or do you just not want them to be equal so that people will pick the one you have over the other option 100% of the time?



3) The concept of tanking:

It is always better to not get hit than to get hit. Period. Always. Every single time. Zero is always less than any positive number. That is all there is to it. As long as the option to not get hit exists, getting hit will never, ever be preferable, let alone ideal.

Again, Talking about Paladin (and non-blink tanking) in it's current state has absolutely nothing to do with coming up with ideas to equalize the two (other than being the reason/cause, rather than a point of discussion and a "counter-argument").

Stop arguing the cause, start arguing the solution.

[Ravenmore]

Thing is NINs were all over this same argument not to long ago. Why cause PLD got everything they did and more. Before that plds were on the outs till they nerfed BRD/NIN, NIN/BRD, NIN/DRK all before abyssea. Even recently they nerfed RDM tanking and now they taking the Cure cheat from RDM. Though that hurt PLD almost as much, but least they didn't take away anything from the job it self. Look at from SEs point of view at every turn we (the player base) try to find ways to not use pld.

[Akujima]

@greatguardian....

Stop arguing the cause, start arguing the solution.

Well said man. That entire post was a thing of beauty.

[Carth]

Stop arguing the cause, start arguing the solution.
Except GG brings up an excellent point of which everyone continues to ignore in this thread, thus making all these solutions, outside of reverting back to the old shield system (with the current proc rate), flawed.

The very core of PLD's job has always been a broken mess. PLD's best role, tanking, has always been competed because the system for Defense and VIT is terribly flawed due to pDIF and level difference.

Shadow tanking is, and always will be the method of tanking vs anything worth throwing a tank at, and since all jobs can get Utsusemi it makes it hard-pressed for any PLD to tank well since they can't keep up with the DPS and spike damage the DDs bring.

Throwing more hate spike/enmity control tools at PLD does not help it, at all.

PLD as a whole has always been the "safety net" job. When your players aren't perfect or well-seasoned, a PLD is great to bring out to secure your victories, but when all your players are very well skilled, PLD loses it's luster. This trend only really changed when Atonement was introduced and gave a big boost to DD PLDs (which is a path worth updating).

If you want this "safety net" trend to end you have to think outside the box for once.

[Akujima]

Thing is NINs were all over this same argument not to long ago. Why cause PLD got everything they did and more.


I think what needs to happen is SE's stand on what the characteristics of each job consist of. At the moment alot of them feel bland, and it's quite hard to feel any difference between them.

MNK's smash stuff, WAR's smash stuff, NIN's smash stuff, THF's smash stuff, SAM's smash stuff, WHM's heal stuff, RDM's heal stuff?... SCH's heal or nuke stuff, BLM nuke stuff. Anyhow... Mage jobs seem to be fairly okay. And nobody is going to argue whether or not a WHM is meant for healing.

NIN when it was first conceived was meant to be a "jack of all trades" melee job. One that could Nuke a little, Throw a little, Melee a little and Tank a little. The spell Utsusemi changed all that forever. Now people started playing NIN as a tank, because they could effectively mitigate damage altogether. NIN as a Sub-Job became the norm for most melee because of Utsusemi. So in actuality, this damage mitigation "fad" that lead to the demise of PLD being useful, was brought about amongst the player base themselves. It's not one particular persons fault, but a fumble on the part of the developers.

The rest of this post, explains what that fumble is.

RPG's have Classes (in this case "Jobs") which are characterized by certain abilities. Most can be summed up in having 6 different qualities which are:

The "Tank"
Melee DD
Ranged DD
"Healers"
"Nukers"
And "Support"


Allowing "Melee DD" to effectively "Tank", will give less importance on "Tank jobs" and their usefulness. Allowing "Nukers" to effectively give "Support" will make "Support role jobs" fail to be as wanted as they should be. Of course, nothing has to be so rigid, as to not allow for some breathing room when it comes to these traits and characteristics. But tipping the scale too far, is when we see the imbalance.

Which leads to my final point...

There's just going to have to be an acceptance of what a Job CAN and CANNOT do. Without this acceptance, there can never be balance when it comes to the definition of Jobs as a whole.

[TybudX]

The only reason DD jobs got a bad rap for "Dying easily" is because most DDs sucked and didn't carry PDT/MDT sets.

Actually, the only reason DDs got a bad rap was because most healers sucked and insisted on trying to keep a PLD alive instead of curing the real tank.

[Zyeriis]

@Carth
While I have ignored the fact that VIT/Defense to STR/Attack ratio has always been completely broken (I've argued about this in other threads) it doesn't mean I have forgotten about it. Unless of course, you're not specifically talking to me (or at all). I simply haven't gotten around to typing out potential solutions for that aspect. I've rather been focusing on ways that Paladin can be altered/adjusted to fit in the current scheme of things without that level of re-coding (reworking the str/attack vs. vit/defense scale completely which would include rewriting just about every enemy in the game probably to be just as damaging as they are now).

As for enmity/hate control abilities and cap increases helping it at all, that's a matter of opinion. I've proposed a possible (keyword of this thread) solution regarding enmity cap increase in Modifications #4.

I guess I'll get to work on solutions to the busted VIT/defense scale post (modifications #5) tomorrow during the maintenance.

[Karinya_of_Carbuncle]

Def and VIT are not broken. They reduce damage by a quite significant amount compared to someone taking hits with their face. Anyone remember the old Dynamis when DDs would get one-shotted by Eagle Eye Shot even from *non* NMs (which would do 500 or less to a PLD)? There's nothing preventing current NMs from having equally dangerous attacks, except the devs chose not to give them any. But then the DDs would just all sub NIN...

Reducing damage by 100% with a 100% proc rate (which is what utsusemi is until the shadows run out) is broken. SE refuses to nerf it, therefore, nothing else they do will fix the real problem, unless they give every NM Hundred Fists, which would be kind of boring.

Players can keep throwing out suggestions (I kind of like the idea of having a check each swing based on mob level vs. ninjutsu skill for the mob to "see through" Utsusemi and hit the player, which would appropriately nerf /NINs and put them at some real risk when they take hate without having too drastic an effect on main NINs) but if SE continues to allow 100% damage reduction with a 100% proc rate, no other method of mitigation is going to be able to equal, let alone surpass it. Utsusemi effectively already *is* permanent Invincible -- except better, because it also works on single-target magic damage.

Ochain: large percentage of damage reduction, but less than 100%; high proc rate, but less than 100%.

Utsusemi: 100% damage reduction, 100% proc rate.

...a level 37 subbable spell is more powerful at avoiding damage than a damn empyreal and we're arguing about what JAs could be adjusted?

P.S. Part of this has to do with haste proliferation making recast timers a joke, but I assume SE isn't going to nerf Haste either, even though they definitely should. It's an unbalanced uber-stat for DDs and god mode for Utsusemi/DD tanks.

[Greatguardian]

Actually, the only reason DDs got a bad rap was because most healers sucked and insisted on trying to keep a PLD alive instead of curing the real tank.

True enough, ha.


Again, Talking about Paladin (and non-blink tanking) in it's current state has absolutely nothing to do with coming up with ideas to equalize the two (other than being the reason/cause, rather than a point of discussion and a "counter-argument").

Stop arguing the cause, start arguing the solution.

It has everything to do with the post I specifically replied to. Don't be mad just because two people chose to post about something aside from Paladin Modifications #9001. We were on topic, get over it.


I think what needs to happen is SE's stand on what the characteristics of each job consist of. At the moment alot of them feel bland, and it's quite hard to feel any difference between them.

This is because all jobs are fundamentally the same. Jobs do not define your character. Jobs augment your base character with Skills, Traits, Abilities, and Spells. It does not make them function any differently from one another. That is simply how the game was designed, how it works, and how it will always work. This cannot be changed.

What you seem to want is a different game. In all honesty, that may be the best option for you. I'm not trying to tell you to "gtfo", but there is a market for video games for a reason. You seem to dislike how FFXI works from its very core. Your adjustments practically ask for an entirely new game with the Ninja/Final Fantasy label on it. I honestly think you would be happier just trying out different games until you find one that suits you better.


[B]There's just going to have to be an acceptance of what a Job CAN and CANNOT do. Without this acceptance, there can never be balance when it comes to the definition of Jobs as a whole.

I refuse to be told what I "Can" or "Cannot" do based on my job. The Developers have always supported the freedom to attempt as wide a variety of techniques as the playerbase wants to. Heck, we have surprised them with our ingenuity quite a few times now. It does not matter how a job is "Meant" to be played, or what role it's "Supposed" to have. We, the players, will find the role that is most effective for it, even if that role is benchwarming.

@Karinya:

Utsusemi's already been nerfed a couple times. I doubt the Devs are in any rush at all to nerf Utsusemi or Haste just because some Paladins complain. That is, more than they've already nerfed them.

[Carth]

@Carth
While I have ignored the fact that VIT/Defense to STR/Attack ratio has always been completely broken (I've argued about this in other threads) it doesn't mean I have forgotten about it. Unless of course, you're not specifically talking to me (or at all). I simply haven't gotten around to typing out potential solutions for that aspect. I've rather been focusing on ways that Paladin can be altered/adjusted to fit in the current scheme of things without that level of re-coding (reworking the str/attack vs. vit/defense scale completely which would include rewriting just about every enemy in the game probably to be just as damaging as they are now).

I'm speaking to particularly everyone in this thread, especially ones that say PLD is a tank job and should stay as that, which I agree with, but the problem isn't that PLD is bad at it's job, but rather in every situation, with great players they can take on any NM without a PLD. It's just that if something screws up, PLD is -the- job to bring to stabilize the situation due to Sentinel and cure spamming. Until people realize this there won't be any good suggestions.

Admittedly I didn't look at the Modifications #4 post but now that I did, raising the Enmity cap for PLD is a general step forward but doesn't address the fundamental problem which I've already stated.


Def and VIT are not broken. They reduce damage by a quite significant amount compared to someone taking hits with their face. Anyone remember the old Dynamis when DDs would get one-shotted by Eagle Eye Shot even from *non* NMs (which would do 500 or less to a PLD)? There's nothing preventing current NMs from having equally dangerous attacks, except the devs chose not to give them any.
I realize this is just an example but Eagle Eye Shot is (damage of a ranged attack)(*5). This means if a DD takes 200 damage vs a ranged attack, they'll take 1000 damage vs EES. A PLD that takes 150 damage will take 750 damage. The numbers are largely skewed, but I'll be honest. In all the Dynamis runs I've done, I don't think I've ever seen anyone drop from EES. It's always due to Hundred Fists when a PLD isn't around and the DRKs/BLMs are too "occupied" to stun it.

DEF/VIT is quite broken either way. There's a reason why RDM/NIN tanks took less damage even with their crappy VIT stat and subpar defense gear. It's because with Phalanx and -PDT(/-MDT) gear, a RDM can take less atrocious hits from an NM. PLDs also use -PDT because unlike DEF, it scales up until it reaches hard cap. DEF scales down the higher your DEF rating is buffed up due to how calculations work. This is why Defender is generally regarded as "crap" even to PLDs.

VIT in itself is just kinda messy since you need so much of it to find a noticeable effect.

[Ravenmore]

Blu works best for stun locking mnks in dyna. With march and a decent haste build You can have a 4 sec recast on head butt 2 blus can stun lock the mob while one can keep another DD from eating dirt. So PLD one golden event were they would not be /nin can be done with out them at 75, 90, 99. Any nerf to Utsusemi would also be a nerf to PLD. PLDs that refuse to use /nin should be left out.

[Byrth]

This is true. a BLU spamming Head Butt removes all the danger from pretty much every old event. 95% hit rate, high magic accuracy. If your mages don't think they can heal heavy 2H DDs, toss a Blue Mage in and they'll be able to.

[Zyeriis]

Modifications #5

2) Combat Roles

-2B) Stabilizer/Savior
This combat role is pretty much what Paladin boils down to in it's current state. They're basically the "back-up" should things go wrong. The problem is this "back-up" is seldom required, let alone is it useful on a day-by-day basis. I, personally, would rather see Paladin get advancement in other areas but, I must post this possible solution regardless.

Why not expand upon Paladin's ability to be there when some one else fails? Give them abilities that can save people from impending doom (cure isn't really what I mean here). -Na spells in particular, such as Cursna, would give Paladin a little more leeway, without replacing White Mages in any way. Yes, Paladin can sub White Mage and get these spells, as can any other Mage but, adding the spells specifically to PLD as a main would allow them to keep their /nin, /dnc, or /war (situation depending) and still have them.

--2a) Reviviscence
Naturally, just giving PLD some -na spells won't help it all invite wise or in truly becoming a full-on savior-esqe job. Reviviscence, a special spell specific to Ferreous Coffin (a Freelancer Campaign NPC) remove weakness from a player. While Ferreous is a White Mage and higher level/tier raise spells are pretty much a white mage's trademark, I see potential in Revivscence being given to Paladin exclusively.

"Why should Paladin get the best Raise spell in the game, that would be nothing more than a gimmick ability to get people to use Paladin again?"

I won't deny that this would be a relative gimmick to give to Paladin but so was giving Refresh to Red Mage. Also, it wouldn't have to be able to raise people, it would just have to remove weakness. Couple that with high mp cost and even higher recast time and it wouldn't be so overpowered (unless of course, you simply have an army of paladin's in your alliance while a small number of people take on the NM without worry). In which case, I am open to suggestions as to how to balance this particular idea out or any other ideas that could be added to this one (savior-esqe role in combat).

6) VIT/Defense

-6A) VIT/STR + Def/Atk Scale
The statistics and formulas behind the calculation has always been broken. No one can deny this (only bring it up repeatedly, by stating something everyone already knows and is completely irrelevant to other ideas thus far in the solutions listings). The thing I don't think anyone knows is as to "why?" this has never been fixed. So, we need to either A) wait for SE to tell us why (like we've been waiting for all these years), B) come up with ideas to get around it without changing the game at all (see: "I want Paladin to DD better"), C) not use paladin (already being done and isn't a solution), or D) request a fix to this broken scale.

I'm going with D (anyone shocked?). However, there are potential problems with doing so. Such as having to rework pretty much every NM and enemy in the game to coincide with the change to the scale. This is no simple, easy, or non-time consuming task I would think. That problem though, is more of a lazy/unwillingness by the dev team to fix something so very broken. That laziness has given us things like "VIT now affects damage taken by critical attacks". Which, no matter how potent this buff to VIT may be does in no way change day-by-day calculations of non-critical/normal damage versus normal defense/VIT, which is the problem. How many NMs can you think of that are notorious for their critical hits?

Some will say that -PDT is the solution here but, they seem to not realize that the jobs that are causing PLD to lose it's place in the game, can also use these things. This is why there needs to be either A) a nerf to DDs being able to wear these -PDT pieces of equipment or B) the scale of STR/attack vs. VIT/defense to be rewritten.

Not only will a rewrite to this flawed scale improve Paladin's useful in survival, it will also affect the enmity gain of the DDs that seek to out-enmity the PLD through damage spam. Enemies will be affected by the increased effectiveness of VIT/defense vs. STR/attack and DD damage capabilities may drop (thus enmity-rate drop) that rely heavily upon STR.

People may be outraged by this: "I can't do ridiculous amounts of damage anymore!? /ragequit" > "They want the game to be balanced? Screw that, I want to be inherently better than other jobs!" > "They're nerfing our ability to survive while at the same time being able to deal tons of damage? That's stupid, I want to be able to do both at the same time regardless of job!". Is it really that big of a deal to level the playing field? They could very well level it without affecting damage output.

[Zyeriis]

@Greatguardian
And I doubt they won't nerf utsusemi just because people complain that it's getting nerfed. Why do you think you should get special treatment because you're not a Paladin?

(Edit: I'm not saying i want a nerf to utsusemi (or that they're going to), as I want Paladin brought up to being useful without it. I'm saying, like most of your "arguments" that it's silly to think that you deserve to be inherently better than another job just because you use a different job: No one should be potentially equal to you?)

[Greatguardian]

@Greatguardian
And I doubt they're won't nerf utsusemi just because people complain that it's getting nerfed. Why do you think you should get special treatment because you're not a Paladin?

(Edit: I'm not saying i want a nerf to utsusemi (or that they're going to), as I want Paladin brought up to being useful without it. I'm saying, like most of your "arguments" that it's silly to think that you deserve to be inherently better than another job just because you use a different job: No one should be potentially equal to you?)

I am a Paladin. An old one, and a good one. I've always considered it one of my favorite jobs. Unlike many other posters here, however, I'm in favor of realistic additions to the job rather than nonsense. You want a complete overhaul of the cRatio system. Arcon wants a complete overhaul of the Enmity system. As far as I'm concerned, both ideas are rubbish since you may as well rewrite the entire game from scratch if you want to fundamentally alter the core game mechanics in such a way.

I'm not sure you're understanding what I said earlier, either. Utsusemi and Haste have already been nerfed multiple times in the game's history. I simply find it unlikely that these core attributes are ever going to be considered for yet another nerf simply because a few people are upset that their job is not #1.

I never said that any amount of complaining would stop a nerf. I said that some paltry complaining is not going to cause one.

[Zyeriis]

Can't say I was expecting much from your response Greatguardian. As all I ever see is you basically calling any form of idea that anyone else has "rubbish" (I have literally yet to see otherwise) without any backing or any form of alternative solutions (which is called constructive criticism). "May as well rewrite the game from scatch" isn't much of a counter-argument. Since you're not denying the fact that the system is broken and seem hell-bent on derailing any train of thought on fixing it, I see no reason to continue this irrelevant debate where all you do is try to insult other people, in a passive-aggressive manner.


I simply find it unlikely that these core attributes are ever going to be considered for yet another nerf simply because a few people are upset that their job is not #1.
For some one claiming that some one else is not understanding what you're saying, you sure do not read much of what other people say. Evading the "equality" statements still while repeatedly saying "it's broken but, don't fix it".


I never said that any amount of complaining would stop a nerf. I said that some paltry complaining is not going to cause one.
I am still waiting on an actual response to what I said regarding this. This doesn't count as one as it completely misses the point (that people complaining is irrelevant to fixing something, that you yourself admit, is broken, whether it's a nerf or not and regardless of which imaginary side of the fence the people complaining are on or how many people are complaining).

Note: I used the word imaginary because you're basicaly making up a conflict between 2 groups that don't exist (unless you consider yourself to be the other group by yourself). Imaginary Group A wants to be equal to Imaginary Group B, not superior.

[GlobalVariable]

Maybe make cover "always on" and give me the other persons hate when the cover message hits the chat log. In chunks, each time the message appears. Pulled hate? Get behind me and make that hate mine.

[Akujima]

Some will say that -PDT is the solution here but, they seem to not realize that the jobs that are causing PLD to lose it's place in the game, can also use these things. This is why there needs to be either A) a nerf to DDs being able to wear these -PDT pieces of equipment or B) the scale of STR/attack vs. VIT/defense to be rewritten.

...

People may be outraged by this: "I can't do ridiculous amounts of damage anymore!? /ragequit" > "They want the game to be balanced? Screw that, I want to be inherently better than other jobs!" > "They're nerfing our ability to survive while at the same time being able to deal tons of damage? That's stupid, I want to be able to do both at the same time regardless of job!". Is it really that big of a deal to level the playing field? They could very well level it without affecting damage output.


What I think happened, is that PLD was the only Job out there that could tank effectively in the past. The only other way to defeat certain bosses, was to "Zerg" them before the boss went ape-$hit and killed all the Melee. (IMO "Zerging should not be possible, due to it stripping dynamics completely out of the game, but that in itself is another topic altogether.)

While I agree that PLD should be a tank, I disagree that it should be the only one. That being said, I agree with your point that if a job outputs major damage, it should also have to sacrifice it's survivability.

The flop by the developers, was to add Equipment and Spells (allowing more jobs than one to access them) that allow certain Melee jobs to "Tank" effectively. What they should have done, was to decide which of the other jobs was going to be a "Tank" and give them the appropriate JA and JT in order to do so.

Arhat's Gi set, Jelly ring, ASA augmented legs and Twilight Torque, all opened up the possibility of Melee mitigating so much damage, it turned PLD into just a "precaution" type job. These -PDT gear sets along with shadows from Utsusemi, really tipped the scales too far for Melee's being able to "Tank".

While your other suggestions are great, I really feel that without doing these two major things, it will be very difficult to revive PLD as being seen as "useful" to the majority of the player base. These two things being:

1. Screw it and make PLD a DD. (something I don't want to see happen) or...
2. Nerf other jobs ability to "Tank" effectively, and decide which other 1~2 jobs can than be another "Tank" Class.

#2 would be met with heavy opposition. And I worry that due to this opposition, the developers will "turn a blind eye" to what could (IMO) bring more balance and dynamics to jobs as a whole.

[svengalis]

PLD and DRK still need serious help, I hope that Dev's look into this thoroughly.

What about RNGs?

[Byrth]

I stopped replying to this thread because you repetitively post ideas that have a 0% chance of ever being implemented, some of which aren't even ideas. But there's a patch, so you get my input on your 5th Modifications:

Point 6:
First off, you don't have a specific suggestion or show any understanding of how cRatio and fSTR work. As far as I know from reading your post, you've just regurgitated something you heard in another thread. The equations aren't "broken," they're working exactly as intended. All the patches, Abyssea, etc. haven't really changed the monster -> player damage mechanics at all.
Secondly, they can't rework cRatio in the way you'd probably like, because any job could sub BLU and use Cocoon. You know what other job gets a lot of VIT gear? White Mage. Monk. etc.
Finally, reducing damage taken is the least of your worries on Paladin. Right now Paladin/Ninja is by far the best at reducing physical damage barring, perhaps, a Fan Dance using Dancer with capped Evasion. Any change to damage mechanics that you make is going to necessarily help other jobs more than Paladin and make the job less desirable.

Point 2a - You call it a stupid gimmick yourself, and you're right.

Point 2B - You want your paladins to sub White Mage, which isn't exactly a bad choice if you're forced to bring them to Abyssea. Again, not really a fix to the job. A "supporting role" Paladin might as well be on a mage job.


Paladin's biggest "problem," at least before the most recent patch, is that no monsters exist (excluding PW) that are hard enough to justify sacrificing a DD slot to bring a Paladin. If you want to blame something for this, blame fixed hate cures (WHM) and Abyssites of Merit.

All the other things, inability to generate CE, slower attack speed than other 1H DDs, crappy WS selection, etc. is secondary to this primary problem. You want to "fix" Paladin? Ask for harder content.

[Akujima]

I stopped replying to this thread because you repetitively post ideas that have a 0% chance of ever being implemented, some of which aren't even ideas...

...You want to "fix" Paladin? Ask for harder content.

At least the guy is trying to be positive and come up with solutions to a job that is considered "invalid" by many.

Melee's crying about not being able to "Tank" tipped the game out of balance. Next thing you know, they'll complain about not being able to cure themselves enough, and ask that /DNC get a boost so they don't have to RELY on cures from anyone else.

Pretty soon we'll see everyone running around as SAM/DNC, MNK/DNC and NIN/DNC because Melee will be able to TANK, DO DAMAGE AND HEAL effectively. Is that what you want? To be a God?

And on your last note: Yes they should give us more difficult content.

[GlobalVariable]

You want to "fix" Paladin? Ask for harder content. If we do that we'll get paladin requiredcontent. People want the jobs to be useful, but not an absolute requirement. The mentality has 180'd. I remember a time nobody would do anything without a pld tank. As much as I love my pld, I don't want a return to those days. We really did need that to change, we needed more tanks. I just want to be useful as a pld again.

[Greatguardian]

Can't say I was expecting much from your response Greatguardian. As all I ever see is you basically calling any form of idea that anyone else has "rubbish" (I have literally yet to see otherwise) without any backing or any form of alternative solutions (which is called constructive criticism). "May as well rewrite the game from scatch" isn't much of a counter-argument. Since you're not denying the fact that the system is broken and seem hell-bent on derailing any train of thought on fixing it, I see no reason to continue this irrelevant debate where all you do is try to insult other people, in a passive-aggressive manner.

The system is what the system is. FFXI is a game, it has rules, it has a system in place. When the ideal playstyle in that system does not coincide with the style you want to play, you can either adjust yourself to match the game, or you attempt to adjust the game to match you.

I don't call every idea rubbish. I call rubbish ideas rubbish. I'm not sitting here insulting anyone. If someone considers being told they're wrong insulting, that's their own problem.

I believe calling the system broken is a matter of perspective. Is it working the way Tanaka-san and the Development Team envisioned it should over a decade ago? Probably not. Is the current system defunct in such a way that it prevents players from playing the game? No. The game can be played perfectly fine. People have been playing it fine for years now, with the same system intact.

Do I think the system is broken? Naw. People can play in this system just fine. The only ones who can't are those who insist that they should be able to play optimally while playing the game "The way they want".

Do I think Paladin could use some adjustments? Definitely. But anything involving Defense is a lost cause. CDC and Ochain were monumental steps in the right direction. Sure, it's a localized boost since it requires two Empyreans, but it's an incredibly solid boost. Paladin needs to not be a waste of a party slot in order for it to be useful, as right now plenty of other jobs can serve as a better tank that deals more damage and takes less.

[Zyeriis]

I stopped replying to this thread because you repetitively post ideas that have a 0% chance of ever being implemented, some of which aren't even ideas. But there's a patch, so you get my input on your 5th Modifications:

Point 6:
First off, you don't have a specific suggestion or show any understanding of how cRatio and fSTR work. As far as I know from reading your post, you've just regurgitated something you heard in another thread. The equations aren't "broken," they're working exactly as intended. All the patches, Abyssea, etc. haven't really changed the monster -> player damage mechanics at all.
Secondly, they can't rework cRatio in the way you'd probably like, because any job could sub BLU and use Cocoon. You know what other job gets a lot of VIT gear? White Mage. Monk. etc.
Finally, reducing damage taken is the least of your worries on Paladin. Right now Paladin/Ninja is by far the best at reducing physical damage barring, perhaps, a Fan Dance using Dancer with capped Evasion. Any change to damage mechanics that you make is going to necessarily help other jobs more than Paladin and make the job less desirable.

Point 2a - You call it a stupid gimmick yourself, and you're right.

Point 2B - You want your paladins to sub White Mage, which isn't exactly a bad choice if you're forced to bring them to Abyssea. Again, not really a fix to the job. A "supporting role" Paladin might as well be on a mage job.


Paladin's biggest "problem," at least before the most recent patch, is that no monsters exist (excluding PW) that are hard enough to justify sacrificing a DD slot to bring a Paladin. If you want to blame something for this, blame fixed hate cures (WHM) and Abyssites of Merit.

All the other things, inability to generate CE, slower attack speed than other 1H DDs, crappy WS selection, etc. is secondary to this primary problem. You want to "fix" Paladin? Ask for harder content.

I think this post is a prime example of how no one agrees on what is wrong with paladin. "0% chance of being implemented" is an opinion, not a stating of fact. I think you misunderstand the purpose of this thread, and the way I try to make it differ from past threads. In that, I am merely listing possibilities and that I am fully aware that perhaps not all of said possibilities have a high probability but it's not 0% probability.

I've got a better question: How is increasing versatility detrimental to the job as it stands? I want something added, something that has potential to make Paladin more useful. Each post is made with the mindset of edging Paladin toward being "fixed" not singular ideas to instantly "fix" paladin. One giant update to paladin (or any job for that matter) is more prone to making that job over powered and thus requiring further adjustments to other jobs. I wish for an end to this cycle, I want equality. Is there really a reason to be against this?

As for not having a specific suggestion on 6A, you're right, I did that on purpose though. The suggestion is to rework the system, I merely gave no specifics as to how it should be scaled. Was it wrong of me to not do so? I don't really think it was, as it gives other people something to talk about and work out.

As for the fact that other jobs also have the VIT/defense gear and /blu that paladin also has access to. This is true (said it was a fact). However, the /blu argument is poor because then /blu would be the only viable sub, which I doubt people would take to. As for the VIT/defense gear, this is another reason why I did not give specifics to my "rework Vit/defense vs. Str/attack" portion of modifications #5. I understood the complexity of the situation, which returns me to my first point of this thread: everyone has different opinions on the matter.

People will argue that DDs are just as good at damage mitigation, then some one else will argue they're not as good. These things play more into personal experience rather than fact. It's the same as me saying that Monk sucks (in general) because of all the bad experiences I've had in the past with them. Was Monk as a job at fault? No, it was the player. I don't deny that Paladin is the best at reducing physical damage (I'd likely agree with you) but that doesn't change the view of other player's who have had bad experiences due to bad players. Adding and adjusting things does that.

[Leonatos]

Now that DD's can safely deal damage with capped enmity and survive enimty is definintely a problem. Pld's are just too slow and you sacrifice to much damage by bringing them when you do not have too. That said here is my Enmity fix.


Proposed Enmity fix #1: New Job Ability
The Knight's Wail
Instant Stun effect reseting hate for all other party/allaince members within A0E say 10' (excluding the PLD's hate)
Recast timer 2:00

You could even make it tiered to improve as you lvl. Say for instance lvl 1 pld would Call of the Squire which have like 10 minute recast timer and minor enmity reduction instead of cancellation of a single target and no stun effect. then have it evolve alittle every 10 to 15 lvl's or so.

[Greatguardian]

Now that DD's can safely deal damage with capped enmity and survive is definintely a problem

They've been able to do that for ... years.

[Leonatos]

They've been able to do that for ... years.

Thank you for being so constructive instead of just trolling on a word play.

[Akujima]

Proposed Enmity fix #1: New Job Trait
The Knight's wail
Instant Stun effect reseting hate for all other party/allaince members within A0E say 10' (excluding the PLD's hate)
Recast timer 2:00

(I think you meant Job Ability, not Trait)

But still pretty cool.

This along with...

Job Ability: Courageous Plea (Opposite of Tranquil Heart)
Increases Enmity Gain from healing magic
Recast Timer: 3:00
Effect Duration: 3:00

(Decided this would be better as a JA, due to having the option of wanting to gain more enmity through healing or not)

[Greatguardian]

Thank you for being so constructive instead of just trolling on a word play.

I'm not trolling and it's not word play. DD jobs being able to survive while maintaining capped Enmity and dealing damage is nothing new and has been happening for years. I've seen people tank Khimaira on Corsair =/. It's not hard for anyone to stay alive against an NM, and if the Devs were to make it harder, Paladins would simply suffer too since they're not really much better at staying alive than some other jobs (and some are just plain better than Paladin at staying alive).

[Zyeriis]

I'm not trolling and it's not word play. DD jobs being able to survive while maintaining capped Enmity and dealing damage is nothing new and has been happening for years. I've seen people tank Khimaira on Corsair =/. It's not hard for anyone to stay alive against an NM, and if the Devs were to make it harder, Paladins would simply suffer too since they're not really much better at staying alive than some other jobs (and some are just plain better than Paladin at staying alive).

Thanks for your opinion (yet again) based upon personal experience (which can differ among other people, which is why it is called "personal" experience) that offers absolutely nothing to thread (again). If you're going to continue being so arrogant, why not grace us "rubbish" people with your brilliance as to how to fix the things you repeatedly bring up? That too hard for you?

[Greatguardian]

Thanks for your opinion (yet again) based upon personal experience (which can differ among other people, which is why it is called "personal" experience) that offers absolutely nothing to thread (again). If you're going to continue being so arrogant, why not grace us "rubbish" people with your brilliance as to how to fix the things you repeatedly bring up? That too hard for you?

How is saying that other jobs can hit capped PDT with damage-mitigating abilities of equal or greater strength than a shield "Basing things on personal experience"? It has nothing to do with personal experience. It is simply how the game works. Paladin does not really have anything so unique in the damage mitigation department that other jobs are unable to reach the same defensive peaks while maintaining a stronger offense. Obviously, this excludes Ochain.

I never called you rubbish. I called ideas rubbish, whether they're yours or not. You take things too personally. I'm the only one being personally "attacked" in this thread, and I'm not even getting mad about it. I've already mentioned once or twice (honestly, why repeat myself 5 dozen times?), as have plenty of other posters of a similar mindset, that Paladin only really needs a proper offensive buff to make it relevant enough that it wouldn't be a complete and utter waste of a slot.

I mean, as far as Abyssea is concerned Paladin will always be a waste of a slot, but who cares? Abyssea is midgame content in a niche environment. Making Paladin interchangeable or even occasionally viable among DD tanks is more than sufficient for overworld content, and the way to do that is to give Paladin more of a punch. Considering the premise of the job, it's unlikely Paladin will ever really be "Top Dog" or "Absolutely Vital" in FFXI.

[Byrth]

Here is a link that you may find enlightening: http://kanican.livejournal.com/13848.html

It takes under ~7000 damage to cap both kinds of Enmity. For most DDs, that's 2-3 weaponskills and the hits it takes to get the TP. Paladin may take longer to hit the cap because it does less damage, but it will eventually reach it. Things is though, once Paladin is at the hate cap, what happens? You've done 7000 damage and the monster has 100,000 HP. Even assuming you have a Chant spamming Paladin, it's going to be a long fight if you don't put another DD on it.

Once you put another DD on it, they catch the Paladin's hate almost instantly (only 7k damage). Then who the monster faces (who is "tanking") is going to depend mostly upon how often they're acting. JAs, spells, etc. all have a 2 second inactivity following them, so the best way to keep capped hate is actually just to autoattack (assuming you generate CE faster than you hemorrhage it when you autoattack) and WS after you take damage. This is obviously in conflict with the best way to kill the monster, but we'll ignore that.

So on high HP monsters that take physical damage well, unless you bring a lot of people and rotate DDs or kill really slowly (people do damage and wait for their VE to decay, lean on Enmity Douse/Manawall/Super Jump/whatever), there is no good way to let Paladin keep hate. It comes down to a simple frequency of action (how frequently you re-cap CE), so there's absolutely nothing you can do about it with all your JA suggestions (which inherently are accompanied by a 2 second delay).

One option would be a JT that affects the caps of the Enmity system. If you want to make Paladin "The Tank," the easiest thing you can do is raise its Cumulative Enmity cap to 10150. That's it, and you can pick the cheesy name if you want. They have to keep generating CE because they lose it through hits and shadows, but as long as they don't eat a a lot of damage that their DDs avoid, they don't have to worry about losing hate.



That said, holding hate is patently not the problem Paladin faces. Lets say you have two O.Chain/Almace Paladins tanking/DDing a monster. Do you know how you could kill it faster? Use two Monks! Do you think that would be more dangerous? Well, don't worry buddy. I'm sure you'll meet a good WHM some day.

Heck, yesterday I "tanked" Azdaja on my Dancer again. One of the meanest monsters in Abyssea, flail-tanked by a support job. Why would anyone use Paladin over that? Until SE makes a monster that can't be tanked by a job that's also providing 10% Haste to the other "Tanks" fighting it, there won't be a place for Paladin.


Also the "It's your personal experience. Individual to you, that's why it's called personal!" stuff is pretty much BS. Unless you're willing to admit that whatever stranger was cited is a better player than you, has better support, etc., then you can't act like it's outside your realm of possibility and doesn't exist in your reality.

[Akujima]

It's quite obvious that GG has no intent on contributing anything positive in terms of how to improve PLD's worthiness amongst the player base. Simply because his popularity depends on how skilled his attempts are at bashing peoples ideas, as opposed to improving ideas that have potential.

@GG
Crunching down on people, because their ideas aren't "good enough" in your eyes, serves no purpose in re-establishing a symbiotic relationship between Jobs. We're in this thread to figure out how to improve PLD, not to continually bicker amongst one another about how PLD "sucks" in the first place.


Symbiotic relationships in an RPG, consist of Classes (or in this case Jobs) that have a NEED for one another.

"Healers" need "Tanks" and "Support"
"Melee" need "Healers" and "Tanks"
"Tanks" need "Healers" and "Melee"
"Support" need the other 3

If you don't agree with this system, that's great for you. But RPG's have consisted of this type of symbiosis since the dawn of the first RPG: Dungeons and Dragons. A Warrior with a Great-Axe going into battle without any form of healing or someone with heavy armor and a shield to aid them, is going to have their @$$ handed to them. Granted they might kill a few enemies in the process, but if the idea is to "Zerg" and not give a crap about your Hit Points and Death Penalties, then I fail to see a point in this even being a game at all.

Melee that do incredible damage in a role-playing point of view, leave themselves open for attack. It makes no sense why those same Melee should also have access to amazing defensive capabilities. You can argue this point all you want, but it's still not going to change how RPG's are AND should be played at the core.

[Zyeriis]

Here is a link that you may find enlightening: http://kanican.livejournal.com/13848.html

It takes under ~7000 damage to cap both kinds of Enmity. For most DDs, that's 2-3 weaponskills and the hits it takes to get the TP. Paladin may take longer to hit the cap because it does less damage, but it will eventually reach it. Things is though, once Paladin is at the hate cap, what happens? You've done 7000 damage and the monster has 100,000 HP. Even assuming you have a Chant spamming Paladin, it's going to be a long fight if you don't put another DD on it.

Once you put another DD on it, they catch the Paladin's hate almost instantly (only 7k damage). Then who the monster faces (who is "tanking") is going to depend mostly upon how often they're acting. JAs, spells, etc. all have a 2 second inactivity following them, so the best way to keep capped hate is actually just to autoattack (assuming you generate CE faster than you hemorrhage it when you autoattack) and WS after you take damage. This is obviously in conflict with the best way to kill the monster, but we'll ignore that.
Hence solutions regarding raising enmity cap in one of two ways: either raise it slightly (to 10150) for PLD specifically or increasing the enmity cap significantly, so as to prolong the time the PLD can hold hate while the DD reaches the cap. (I'm not forgetting the fact that the PLD would need to reach the cap faster in order for this to work but that is a different part of the problem).



So on high HP monsters that take physical damage well, unless you bring a lot of people and rotate DDs or kill really slowly (people do damage and wait for their VE to decay, lean on Enmity Douse/Manawall/Super Jump/whatever), there is no good way to let Paladin keep hate. It comes down to a simple frequency of action (how frequently you re-cap CE), so there's absolutely nothing you can do about it with all your JA suggestions (which inherently are accompanied by a 2 second delay).

One option would be a JT that affects the caps of the Enmity system. If you want to make Paladin "The Tank," the easiest thing you can do is raise its Cumulative Enmity cap to 10150. That's it, and you can pick the cheesy name if you want. They have to keep generating CE because they lose it through hits and shadows, but as long as they don't eat a a lot of damage that their DDs avoid, they don't have to worry about losing hate.

Hmm, the JA ideas were stabs at potential solutions of this problem. I guess you don't see where I was going with them (could be wrong) but, I don't think they'd be completely useless, especially not with enmity tweaks (see above). The enmity siphon job ability was primarily aimed at the problem of recapping CE so quickly. The idea was also to off-set the DDs damage output enmity gain to balance that out with PLD's lackluster DDing (by comparison). Again, I have to stress, that no idea thus far was intended as a singular fix. Mixing and matching potential ideas wouldn't fully repair PLD's usefulness either but, again, it would be a start.


That said, holding hate is patently not the problem Paladin faces. Lets say you have two O.Chain/Almace Paladins tanking/DDing a monster. Do you know how you could kill it faster? Use two Monks! Do you think that would be more dangerous? Well, don't worry buddy. I'm sure you'll meet a good WHM some day.

Heck, yesterday I "tanked" Azdaja on my Dancer again. One of the meanest monsters in Abyssea, flail-tanked by a support job. Why would anyone use Paladin over that? Until SE makes a monster that can't be tanked by a job that's also providing 10% Haste to the other "Tanks" fighting it, there won't be a place for Paladin.

Hence the suggestion that they rework vit vs str and attack vs defense. Even if it wouldn't be that simple, it would be a start.

Edit: Even if the system is working as intended does not mean it's not broken. If it was broken to begin with, thus causing the problems, then it needs to be changed. Just because it hasn't as of yet, doesn't mean it shouldn't be.



Also the "It's your personal experience. Individual to you, that's why it's called personal!" stuff is pretty much BS. Unless you're willing to admit that whatever stranger was cited is a better player than you, has better support, etc., then you can't act like it's outside your realm of possibility and doesn't exist in your reality.

I do believe you just made my point for me (that or you are missing what I was trying to say). Would a better term be circumstantial? Anyway, I was comparing your post about how PLD is "right now the best at mitigating damage" versus Greatguardian claiming that PLD has never been the best at anything (or something along those lines).

Edit: People are arguing different things as to why PLD or the system is flawed, that conflict with one another and are using past experiences to back up their statements (such as corsair tanking khimaria). I don't see anyone saying that some one is better than them, all I see is everyone saying they're better/smarter than everyone else because of what they've experienced. In the meantime, I'm trying to draw from everyone's experiences rather than my own. If I purely drew from my own experiences, then I wouldn't have even made this thread the way I did. I would've made it like the others one where I just state my idea and leave it at that. I want input, and other experiences, and other solutions, even if those people do not agree with my solutions or if I disagree with the solutions. I want them, nonetheless. I simply can't put up with people who deny there is a problem or people who offer nothing and just repeatedly bring up the causes of the problem rather than the solutions.

[Greatguardian]

snip

If an idea here had potential I'd run with it. All I see in your post is:

"I want to play Dungeons and Dragons Online. I do not care that this is Final Fantasy XI, and is its own Entity with its own rules and mechanics. If Class A and Class B do not do what they do in other games, then the rules and mechanics are obviously flawed."

If you want to play a game that is not Final Fantasy XI, play a game that is not Final Fantasy XI. Meanwhile, those of us who can cope with the fact that there are certain fundamental things about the game that will always remain the same will be brainstorming ideas for the advancement of the Paladin job that are feasible to implement and actually address the problems Paladin has.

And for what it's worth, Byrth's post was directed at Zy, not me.

@Zy: I never said Paladin has never been the best at anything. I said, for the past few years, other jobs have been able to tank better than Paladin on pretty much every NM in the game. From a purely defensive standpoint? RDM does it way better, Dark Knight does it just as well, Monk does it better, Samurai can do it just as well, and Ninja can do it just as well depending on the NM. From an Enmity standpoint? Pretty much every DD in the game does it as well or better. From a Damage standpoint? Again, most jobs do it better.

This has nothing to do with personal experience. This has nothing to do with some Paladins sucking or some DDs being amazing. I've had the privilege of playing with some absolutely amazing Paladins, and I'm not a huge slouch myself. Other jobs can simply mitigate damage more consistently while dealing more damage and, thus, maintaining equal/greater enmity values and ending fights sooner.

Edit2: As for Paladin being the best damage mitigation right now, blame that on Ochain. It's an incredibly powerful shield, and I've mentioned another half dozen times in this thread alone that I'm leaving it out of the picture for now.

[Akujima]

If an idea here had potential I'd run with it. All I see in your post is:

"I want to play Dungeons and Dragons Online. I do not care that this is Final Fantasy XI, and is its own Entity with its own rules and mechanics. If Class A and Class B do not do what they do in other games, then the rules and mechanics are obviously flawed."

If you want to play a game that is not Final Fantasy XI, play a game that is not Final Fantasy XI.

I said nothing of wanting to play D&D online, but it still doesn't change the fact that FFXI is an MMORPG. And MMORPG's consist of certain gameplay mechanics that define them as such. The same goes for any other type of game, so let me give you an example.

First person shooters: Looking through the eyeballs of someone holding a gun and running around in a 3D environment shooting "bad guys" coming from all directions.

Side-Scrollers: Looking at a character from the side, running through a 2D map, avoiding obstacles/defeating enemies to eventually reach their goal.

Single Player Role-Playing Games: Following the main protagonist on his adventure, defeating enemies, leveling up and gaining equipment, in order to progress through more difficult areas.

MMORPG's: Following a group of protagonists on their adventure, each having abilities that compliment one another (In order for them to stay as a group!), using their abilities together as a team to defeat difficult enemies (not being able to defeat difficult enemies or Level Bosses solo, forces them to stay as a group!), leveling up together and gaining new equipment and abilities in order to progress through more difficult areas.


Meanwhile, those of us who can cope with the fact that there are certain fundamental things about the game that will always remain the same

Well, I don't think you can cope with the fact that this is FUNDAMENTALLY an MMORPG and MMORPG's will always remain the same. Let alone most of the jobs do or feel nothing like what they did in another Final Fantasy's.

[Greatguardian]

Last I checked, you determined a game's genre based on what it is; you don't determine what it is based on the game's genre.

If it is so disturbing to call FFXI an MMORPG, call it something else. Or just call it FFXI. I thought you were the one telling me to think outside the box in your Shuriken thread. Now you want FFXI to conform to the box or else? Classy.

Finally, if I piss you off so much, you're welcome to vent about me on other sites where you're free to call me a doo doo head without fear of moderator reprisal. Link me for lulz please.

[Byrth]

Yeah. When I talk about Paladin being the king of damage reduction, I'm referring to O.chain. It turns Paladin into a small god of damage reduction.

The fSTR calculations aren't broken. They're a concession to 1H weapon users and a bandaid that inhibits overcamping at low levels and helps Paladins tank Mandragoras in Kampf gear. Your insistence that something is wrong with them make me think you don't understand how they work, so here goes:
(Your STR - Target's VIT)/4 + 4 ~= fSTR, at high STR values relative to VIT.
fSTR caps at (Weapon Rank + 8), where Weapon Rank = Floor(Weapon Damage/9)
(Weapon Damage + fSTR) = Base damage

So for low damage weapon users (like Paladin), Joyeuse +20 STR (35 ~+6 Damage = 17%) is a much larger increase in damage than for a Warrior with Perdu Voulge +20 STR (96+~6 damage = ~+6%).

The opposite is true when a Paladin is tanking a monster. High VIT (- base damage) is good against monsters with low starting base damage that hit frequently (like Mandragoras). VIT doesn't matter so much against things with high base damage (like almost everything after level 60).


I definitely agree that this mechanic doesn't have a large impact on endgame, but the obvious alternatives I see are:
1) Make negative monster -> player fSTR subtract damage. This could be done Phalanx-style, or using the current -Base damage tyle.
2) Make negative monster -> player fSTR manifest as percent decrease in damage taken, like PDT but not affected by the cap.

Pick whichever you like, adjust it however you like, and you'll probably be more durable (and so would everyone else) but you haven't changed Paladin's situation at all.

This is not a new problem in the least, and none of the damage-taken mechanisms have changed. If there weren't level 90 monsters when we were 75 (the easy ones, like Genbu) then we wouldn't have had such a hard time DDing them. If you'd lowered the monsters between level 85-95 down to level ~82, I doubt that Paladin would ever have become popular. Now we fight monsters that are realistically probably ~5-7 levels above us. How quickly would a level 82 Tiamat have died to a few SAMs?

The problem is not in the job, it's in the lack of massive level-correction (and thus damage-resistant) monsters. I sure don't miss the old days, but I'm sorry you guys lost your house.

[Zyeriis]

@Byrth
I definently see the point in the HNM example you gave as to their level vs our levels. I will add something along those lines in my next modifications post.

As for the starting point about how fSTR is a concession to 1H, the examples you gave aren't really relevant anymore as they mostly apply to pre-abyssea exping (because abyssea made standard exp parties not worth the trouble). I know you admitted that it doesn't have a big impact on endgame, which is generally what this thread is about: PLD once it is 90+.

In any case, the problem with DDs being able to survive better (or as well as) than Paladin. Some people want a DD buff to PLD, some people want something different. Reworking the formulas would balance things out a bit more wouldn't it? I'm not just talking defensive wise here either. Reworking fSTR formulas would benefit PLD as well, by bringing DDs down a bit, and moving PLD up a bit. DDs would focus more on offensive gear full-time because of the adjustment (not that they don't already do that) while PLD would be able to focus more on VIT and other things if they felt inclined to do so. I guess it wouldn't make a huge difference but it would bridge the gap at least a little bit more, if you understand what I'm trying to say that is. Some might call that a DD nerf, while half-true, it would also be boosting something else in the process (mob toughness, player toughness while lowering player attack [slightly] and damage output thus resulting in lower enmity rate, making it slightly more difficult to continuously cap CE and tank). It would cause a ripple effect. Whether it would be good enough, too good, or not good at all, I can't really say.

[Greatguardian]

Adjusting fundamental mechanics formulas is like changing the rules of Monopoly 5 hours into the game because you don't think collecting $200 every time you pass go is enough for people who don't have Boardwalk and Park Place.

[Byrth]

In any case, the problem with DDs being able to survive better (or as well as) than Paladin. Some people want a DD buff to PLD, some people want something different. Reworking the formulas would balance things out a bit more wouldn't it? I'm not just talking defensive wise here either. Reworking fSTR formulas would benefit PLD as well, by bringing DDs down a bit, and moving PLD up a bit. DDs would focus more on offensive gear full-time because of the adjustment (not that they don't already do that) while PLD would be able to focus more on VIT and other things if they felt inclined to do so. I guess it wouldn't make a huge difference but it would bridge the gap at least a little bit more, if you understand what I'm trying to say that is. Some might call that a DD nerf, while half-true, it would also be boosting something else in the process (mob toughness, player toughness while lowering player attack [slightly] and damage output thus resulting in lower enmity rate, making it slightly more difficult to continuously cap CE and tank). It would cause a ripple effect. Whether it would be good enough, too good, or not good at all, I can't really say.

You haven't been reading the update notes if you think they're going to nerf DDs at this point. If you're going to campaign for fSTR changes, campaign to make the penalties of negative fSTR more severe. This will (unfortunately) hurt your own damage pretty badly (see my example, imagine a negative number instead of positive), but it will give you the damage reduction with VIT that you seem to be looking for.

[TybudX]

Changing fSTR wouldn't help PLD at all, really, since their swords have relatively high base damage. Jobs with lower base damage, such as THF and DNC, would be given more wiggle room to optimize DD gear. PLD really couldn't do jack.

[Zyeriis]

Adjusting fundamental mechanics formulas is like changing the rules of Monopoly 5 hours into the game because you don't think collecting $200 every time you pass go is enough for people who don't have Boardwalk and Park Place.

They've certainly never adjusted "fundamental" mechanics before. Critical hits aren't being altered to be affected by VIT at all (even if it's pretty pointless). We didn't used to have elemental resistance increases across the board just from leveling up either, right? The "fundamental" mechanic of losing exp upon death (level 1-30) isn't being removed either. We didn't have to "set" our mog houses before using rent-a-rooms either.

All you're saying is "they shouldn't update/fix/balance things". Trolling, you should try harder, that post wasn't very good.

[Akujima]

Last I checked, you determined a game's genre based on what it is; you don't determine what it is based on the game's genre.

If it is so disturbing to call FFXI an MMORPG, call it something else. Or just call it FFXI. I thought you were the one telling me to think outside the box in your Shuriken thread. Now you want FFXI to conform to the box or else? Classy.

Finally, if I piss you off so much, you're welcome to vent about me on other sites where you're free to call me a doo doo head without fear of moderator reprisal. Link me for lulz please.

All or most of your posts just consist of a simple formula: You're wrong. This is how you are wrong. I'm right. This is how I'm right. Completely leaving out the point or subject matter the OP was trying to portray.

Games are never going to become real life, so there's a limit to how far it's possible to think outside of that. Games in themselves are "Boxes", but many who get too into the game mechanics, have made a "Box within a Box" and can't creatively think outside their own viewpoint, in order to improve those mechanics which have failed somehow.

So yea, whatever man. Still doesn't change the fact that most of your posts don't contribute anything. Just continuing to pick at peoples faults and point out their inconsistencies, doesn't make you a savior to the developers the way you think it does. And if your intention is to discourage creative thinkers, instigate people and instill hopelessness towards their ideas, then you've succeeded. Because I'm tired of this forum and all it's negativity, so I'll leave it up to you to run things the way you want. I'd rather be doing other things, than wasting my time in a heated battle with everyone trying to get their point across.

Adios.

[Greatguardian]

They've certainly never adjusted "fundamental" mechanics before. Critical hits aren't being altered to be affected by VIT at all (even if it's pretty pointless). We didn't used to have elemental resistance increases across the board just from leveling up either, right? The "fundamental" mechanic of losing exp upon death (level 1-30) isn't being removed either. We didn't have to "set" our mog houses before using rent-a-rooms either.

All you're saying is "they shouldn't update/fix/balance things". Trolling, you should try harder, that post wasn't very good.

If you can't tell the difference between adjusting fStr and cRatio/pDif calculations and adjusting the EXP loss curve then I just don't know what else to tell you.

Oh, and I'm not trolling. I'm simply putting up with your repeated personal attacks without retaliating or reporting you like a champ. Does that really hurt your feelings so much? You seem pretty mad.

Edit: Nvm, he's way more mad.

[Zyeriis]

If you can't tell the difference between adjusting fStr and cRatio/pDif calculations and adjusting the EXP loss curve then I just don't know what else to tell you.

Oh, and I'm not trolling. I'm simply putting up with your repeated personal attacks without retaliating or reporting you like a champ. Does that really hurt your feelings so much? You seem pretty mad.

Edit: Nvm, he's way more mad.

I said try harder, not resort to classic trolling techniques such as: "nah, umad despite showing no signs of it". Go ahead and report me for never (as far as I can remember) calling you a name or acting out "personal attacks" unlike what you've been doing. You know, other than calling you arrogant and a troll in my most recent post. Seriously, feel free, if you can actually find an instance of your feelings getting hurt by something I said, or try harder. In the meantime, I'll wait for you to learn how to be constructive (doesn't seem likely) and actually post something that has some merit (then maybe you'd get an actual response, because there would be an actual topic being discussed that doesn't coincide with your ego).

[Byrth]

I'll post the same idea again: Add some level 110 monsters.

[Greatguardian]

I'll post the same idea for the 3rd-ish time this thread: Native Fencer, Impetus, Berserk, or some other form of damage buff to Paladin to make them less of a waste of space.

Just because you skim my posts doesn't mean I don't mention constructive things. I simply don't repeat them over and over.

Also what Byrth said.

[Zyeriis]

You haven't been reading the update notes if you think they're going to nerf DDs at this point. If you're going to campaign for fSTR changes, campaign to make the penalties of negative fSTR more severe. This will (unfortunately) hurt your own damage pretty badly (see my example, imagine a negative number instead of positive), but it will give you the damage reduction with VIT that you seem to be looking for.

No denial that's unlikely they'll nerf DDs at this point but, it never hopes to try and suggest a balancing out. Anyway, yeah that would give the VIT/damage reduction but, as I'm trying to say, that's not the only aspect to it. A slight nerf to DDs (fSTR formulas) would result in less efficient hate holding for them. Naturally, it wouldn't be enough and it would likely people get angry. I can't honestly say otherwise. I am also aware that it would hurt PLD pretty badly damage wise but, that's a trade-off I'm willing to accept if it means I can do stuff and be useful as PLD as a tank that is at least somewhat on par with blink tanking and with DDs tanking.

I am also not forgetting that getting hurt damage wise on PLD would hurt it's enmity just as badly, if not worse, than DDs (strictly DDing-wise in terms of enmity gain/enmity holding and that DDs would still be able to cap out on enmity almost as fast as they can now). That is why PLD needs more enmity tools. Every little idea I've posted can attribute to this potential adjustment. Every little bit helps in some way.

All of that being said, it is probably not the most elegant solution (or a true solution) but, it would help ever so slightly. Which is what I'm going for: slight adjustments as to not overpower the job and break my stance on wanting it brought up to an equal level, tanking wise.

[TybudX]

It's easier (and makes more sense) to just increase PLD's DD capacity than it is to adjust the whole game around PLD.

[Byrth]

It's easier (and makes more sense) to just increase PLD's DD capacity than it is to adjust the whole game around PLD.

Good idea, but what do you get when you make the most durable job in the game also the most damaging? It would make bandwagon SAM and MNK crazes look like nothing.

[Kuishen]

All or most of your posts just consist of a simple formula: You're wrong. This is how you are wrong. I'm right. This is how I'm right. Completely leaving out the point or subject matter the OP was trying to portray.

Games are never going to become real life, so there's a limit to how far it's possible to think outside of that. Games in themselves are "Boxes", but many who get too into the game mechanics, have made a "Box within a Box" and can't creatively think outside their own viewpoint, in order to improve those mechanics which have failed somehow.

So yea, whatever man. Still doesn't change the fact that most of your posts don't contribute anything. Just continuing to pick at peoples faults and point out their inconsistencies, doesn't make you a savior to the developers the way you think it does. And if your intention is to discourage creative thinkers, instigate people and instill hopelessness towards their ideas, then you've succeeded. Because I'm tired of this forum and all it's negativity, so I'll leave it up to you to run things the way you want. I'd rather be doing other things, than wasting my time in a heated battle with everyone trying to get their point across.

Adios.

ahahahahahahahaha

Good god your reasoning is terrible and your ideas are terrible, you're just embarrassing yourself at this point.

[Greatguardian]

Good idea, but what do you get when you make the most durable job in the game also the most damaging? It would make bandwagon SAM and MNK crazes look like nothing.

Pfft, implying the white knight protector Paladin hasn't been one of the biggest bandwagon crazes in the game's history. Silly Byrth =P.

That said, I don't have a solution to anything that involves Ochain. The only thing I could practically add taking that shield into account would be to simply make AV-scale mobs that obliterate anyone without an Ochain. Of course, just about every Paladin who complains about Paladin on forums won't be any better off since it's highly unlikely any of them are sporting Ochains anways.

[Zyeriis]

ahahahahahahahaha

Good god your reasoning is terrible and your ideas are terrible, you're just embarrassing yourself at this point.
I'm going to have to agree with you, that post is....an embarrassment. The first paragraph made me facepalm so hard I nearly died, Akujima.

[TybudX]

PLD being durable and doing decent damage isn't a whole lot different than MNK counter tanking (and doing damage) or NIN/THF/DNC evasion tanking (and doing damage). Bring PLD DD up to par, maybe by making shields relevant from a damage standpoint so as not to imbalance DWing swords or something stupid.

[Byrth]

Pfft, implying the white knight protector Paladin hasn't been one of the biggest bandwagon crazes in the game's history. Silly Byrth =P.

That said, I don't have a solution to anything that involves Ochain. The only thing I could practically add taking that shield into account would be to simply make AV-scale mobs that obliterate anyone without an Ochain. Of course, just about every Paladin who complains about Paladin on forums won't be any better off since it's highly unlikely any of them are sporting Ochains anways.

OChain is a great tool for Paladin, but it really does make this problem a lot more real. I mean, I'm sure you've all seen this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oKh0yEGC2M

The job is so physically resistant that it can pull other monsters while fighting a NM solely for the purpose of TP gain. Anything you do to make that better or more accessible is going to break it.

[Carth]

Good idea, but what do you get when you make the most durable job in the game also the most damaging? It would make bandwagon SAM and MNK crazes look like nothing.
I'd rather SE take a risk with this than to go through the same 'ol tune with PLD and throw out random defensive buffs and hate spikes.

[Akujima]

I'm going to have to agree with you, that post is....an embarrassment. The first paragraph made me facepalm so hard I nearly died, Akujima.

Whatever man. I was on your side, but now you can face-off against the rest of those who will dish out never-ending bitter arguments against you. It's clear to see that all this mathematical BS that's stuck between everyone's ears has blinded them from actually having fun with a video game.

I can give a rat's @$$ about mathematics, because stuff like that is just childs-play. What is actually going to make a video game GOOD is content that can appeal to everyone, and not just to sour-puss mathematicians whom fight amongst one another, about how much work it will take to rehash a system that has failed in the first place.

Economics involves more than just numbers, and if people aren't going to play the game because it doesn't feel like a typical MMORPG, nor does it resemble much of the other Final Fantasy series... SE will lose money. Simple as that.

And if that first paragraph doesn't make sense to you, just don't blame me for your inability to comprehend the concepts in which I'm trying to explain.

@GG

I can guarantee other forums would understand what I'm talking about, when I say "It makes sense for NINJA's to THROW".

[Zyeriis]

Whatever man. I was on your side, but now you can face-off against the rest of those who will dish out never-ending bitter arguments against you. It's clear to see that all this mathematical BS that's stuck between everyone's ears has blinded them from actually having fun with a video game.

I can give a rat's @$$ about mathematics, because stuff like that is just childs-play. What is actually going to make a video game GOOD is content that can appeal to everyone, and not just to sour-puss mathematicians whom fight amongst one another, about how much work it will take to rehash a system that has failed in the first place.

Economics involves more than just numbers, and if people aren't going to play the game because it doesn't feel like a typical MMORPG, nor does it resemble much of the other Final Fantasy series... SE will lose money. Simple as that.

And if that first paragraph doesn't make sense to you, just don't blame me for your inability to comprehend the concepts in which I'm trying to explain.

@GG

I can guarantee other forums would understand what I'm talking about, when I say "It makes sense for NINJA's to THROW".

:/ You really don't see what's wrong with that post you made?


All or most of your posts just consist of a simple formula: You're wrong. This is how you are wrong. I'm right. This is how I'm right.
That's generally what a debate is (which isn't what he was doing).

[Akujima]

That's generally what a debate is (which isn't what he was doing).

I fail to see how its possible to debate a creative idea. Unless that idea is totally impossible (such as that 3 pronged impossible shape or whatever).

All he keeps saying is that "Adjusting current ratio's regarding fSTR and VIT" or whatever "takes too much work". Something that takes "too much work" implies laziness, not impossibility.

[Greatguardian]

Despite the fact that I have presented my own opinions on how to improve Paladin, however constructive you deem them to be, that does not mean that I am required to present an alternative every time I disagree with something you present.

When you present a thesis, it is your job to defend it. It is not the critic's job to offer alternative solutions if you have a poorly designed thesis, and/or a thesis which leaves itself open to criticism. This is your thread, in which you presented a thesis for adjusting FFXI in regards to Paladin. When you presented this thesis, of course you left it open to criticism if others are able to point out flaws within it.

For example, I believe that your understanding of the nature behind Paladin's disrepute in the FFXI community is flawed. Enmity is not a real concern for Paladin since it is just as easy for them to cap TE as it is every other job in the game. Even if Paladin had a CE cap of 11,000, it would not be beneficial for a non-Ochain Paladin to be tanking mobs as they would simply take more damage than a Monk tank (and eliminate the offensive boost Counter gives). Paladin is deemed useless because there exist jobs in the game that can do Paladin's job with equal or greater proficiency while contributing more to the group.

Similarly, I believe, in general, that any method which involves the adjustment of fundamental game mechanics in order to make the game suit a particular job is flawed. Adjusting fStr and pDif/cRatio formulas will impact every single job in the game, both offensively and defensively. That is no longer a Paladin-specific buff, but rather the adjustment of the entire game simply to appeal to players who wish to play Paladin a certain way. I do not feel that this is either wise or within the realm of reasonable feasibility.

You can call me a troll all you like. You can claim that I'm being counter-productive by "shooting down everyone's ideas". But what sort of value does an idea have if the OP cannot defend their thesis? Welcome to the real world. Instead of freaking out because I'm telling you why you're wrong, fix the flaws with your thesis and then tell me why you're right.

Edit: @Akujima, I never said adjusting pDif was too much work. I said it was absolutely, utterly, completely, 110% bloody freaking ridiculous to change the rules of the game ten years into its development simply because some people want to play a different game. I do not care what "Ninjas do", what "Other RPGs do", or what "An MMORPG is supposed to be". This is what Final Fantasy XI is, and if you don't like it you are welcome to find a game which you would enjoy. No one is forcing you to play it. If you would prefer a game where Ninja use Shuriken and Bloodtanking matters, you are welcome to find a game that has such things.

[Pharaun]

@ Akujima, What GG and many other people are trying to tell you is that because of the basic mechanics behind the game, you know the mathy stuff that you don't like, most of your "creative ideas" would be impossible to make happen with out rewriting large portions of the games core code. The FFXI team just doesn't have the man power to do such things. It isn't laziness on their part because the sheer amount of man hours that it would take makes it a practical impossibility, especially when you consider all the other things that they are trying to do with the game.

[Chocobits]

I think the only possibility for PLD is that SE is hoping if they continue to neglect it, people will forget the job exists so they can quietly phase it out. The complete and utter lack of response to any of the multitude of "Please fix it" or "Here's an idea to fix it" or "do you think it will stop sucking" threads pretty much shows their stance on PLD.

One day we will log in and wonder why there's a blank spot at the bottom pair of jobs in our list and scratch our heads wondering where it went. SE almost seems embarrassed of PLD's existence.

Devs if you do read or have been reading, the job came unbalanced a long time ago, and has been falling out of favor since before Abyssea. It is non-existent for all practical purposes, and I know you can and have pulled up the statistics to show that. You seem to think that whenever people stop doing/using something it's because nobody likes it anymore, instead of seriously examining the reasons why they fall into disuse; because you made them suck.

(Not a PLD btw, but it would have been nice to level it someday)

[TybudX]

Oh wow, I never saw that video. It's cool and all, but WAR can do the same thing right now with Retaliation.

@Akujima
You are missing the point, much like another poster who seemed to think one of his horrible ideas was somehow being mired down by math and logic and everybody else's inability to "think outside the box". The math in this game is very simple. Adjusting the formulas won't change PLDs position within the game, it will just narrow or widen the gap, as it were. Draw a dot on a balloon. That's PLD. If you stretch the balloon the dot stays in the same place. If you deflate the balloon it stays in the same place. It's only the other job's positions relative to PLD that change.

This isn't some lazy scripting that a programmer did. It's part of nature. You can't make numbers work outside of absolutes without going into theoretical math. It's the laws of physics that are limiting game design, not our box. You want a fix to PLD? I've seen several good ideas in this thread, or at least good starts. They weren't your ideas. You are attacking people with reasonable ideas not because they don't want to fix PLD (they have offered suggestions), but because they have told you your suggestions aren't feasible within the limits of the game's design. Now you are attacking somebody else who used to be 'on your side' because he called you out on your ranting.

Stop. Just stop. You are making a fool of yourself.

edit - obvious limitation based on mobs thast can be pulled

[Mrbeansman]

I can give a rat's @$$ about mathematics, because stuff like that is just childs-play. What is actually going to make a video game GOOD is content that can appeal to everyone, and not just to sour-puss mathematicians whom fight amongst one another, about how much work it will take to rehash a system that has failed in the first place.


You make a great poster child for the saddest part of the FFXI fanbase. This game works on mathematical algorithms people like you need to learn that you can not suggest something and say fuck math because its that math that makes the game tick.

[Byrth]

Oh wow, I never saw that video. It's cool and all, but WAR can do the same thing right now with Retaliation.

<_______< I don't know about your WAR, but my WAR wouldn't do that against Bukhis and survive on one cure a minute, not getting cruor buffs dispelled or anything. That was like 20 bats and continuous light skillchains.

[Greatguardian]

The WAR still takes full damage when they Retaliate, but I'm assuming they just brainfarted and assumed it worked like Counterstance and stacked with it or something.

[Ravenmore]

One thing that they could do is like someone else mention making shields a offensive Weapon as well as a def one. This could be done with a stance like hasso with the same cooldown and duration. When in offensive you give up all the defense for it to act as a weapon where a block would do dmg to the mob on par with a sword attack. Remove the effect it goes back to what we have now. This would also effect Ochain plds by were the trade off would be to great but with a shield that good it would be worth it. Not a great idea but it would be a start and do less damage to the game then messing with the dmg calculations.

They could remove the atonement damage reduction that Abyssea NMs have and not give it to new NMs.

[Hayward]

As is the case with White Mages needing to be THE best healer in the game, Paladins need to be THE best tanks in the game. No two ways about it. This requires some extensive changes and, no, Almace and Ochain are not solutions but window dressing covering up serious flaws.

So far the only person I've read actually putting useful ideas out here has been Zyeriis. Most of the rest of this thread has been from sabermetric geeks who probably wouldn't care if Paladin existed or not or AllaGartr elitists who think the only solution is to kiss enough endgamer rear end to get an Almace & Ochain (90).

I've offered some solutions somewhere else but I'll list them here:

*Raise enmity cap by 100%, accelerate enmity gain, decelerate enmity loss. Make these part of an exclusive 4-tier Job Trait for Paladins (i.e. not applicable to /PLD nor available to any other job).

*Make Double Attack, Fencer, and 2 tiers of Attack Bonus native to Paladin.

*Give Paladins a Provoke-type ability that earns twice as much enmity as Provoke.

*Add a haste/counter effect to Reprisal or make them part of a new JA like Hasso/Seigan.

*change Defense Bonuses from a fixed number to a reduced percentage of overall damage taken, increasing with each tier (example: -2% (Lv. 10), -3% (Lv. 30), -5% (Lv. 50), -10% (Lv. 70), -15% (lv. 76), for a total of -35% DT; also preventing the abuse of /PLD that has been the case for /NIN for so long).

[TybudX]

@Bryth and GG
No, I understand how Retaliation works, I'm just forgetting that Ochain stops so much damage. Even with full on tanking gear (-50%) and good buffs a WAR is going to fall far behind on mitigation. I hadn't really thought about how much of a game changer Ochain was until now.

[Akujima]

All or most of your posts just consist of a simple formula: You're wrong. This is how you are wrong. I'm right. This is how I'm right. Completely leaving out the point or subject matter the OP was trying to portray.


Nevermind actually. This is $%#@'ed up because I was drunk while writing this... But just goes to show you that posting on these forums is so depressing, it resulted in my having to drink just to bring my consciousness down to the same level...-_-...

So I take back some of what I said, but not the points about RPG's or whatever...

[Mrbeansman]

As is the case with White Mages needing to be THE best healer in the game, Paladins need to be THE best tanks in the game. No two ways about it. This requires some extensive changes and, no, Almace and Ochain are not solutions but window dressing covering up serious flaws.

What pld should be is irrelevant. It's not the best tank it never was and it never will be get over it you can't always get what you want.

[Hayward]

@Mrbeansman:

I'd say from past history, it is absurd to say that Paladin's identity to S-E is irrelevant. I would guess you are the very type of sabermetrics geek who cares little about the things that make each job different--in other words, only numbers matter in the game. S-E, given past actions, appears to disagree or it would not have made such extensive efforts to return White Mage to the top of the healing order. What many of us are saying is that S-E needs to follow suit in the case of Paladin where tanking is concerned. Evasion tanking has its place, but that's called soloing in most cases. Counter-tanking by Monks can hardly be considered tanking in the sense of reducing one's own damage. If not for an alert White Mage, that Monk would not be long for the world no matter how much HP it has.

I stand by my post and repeat that it is necessary for S-E to return Paladins to the top of the tanking order with the same energy as they have done so with White Mage and healing.

[Sarick]

Here are a few suggestions.

Enmity Cap (possible fix)
New Ability Champion
While under this effect (equal to composure in recast and duration) each JA ability, attack or spell directly targeted on a claimed enemy reduces hate pool of others on it's hate list except the player with champion active. If multiple champions are active then the effects are multiplied but each paladin reduces the hate of each other equally in the enemies hate pool as well as others.

Tank damage mitigation and effectiveness.
May add effect counterbash to shield blocking (instead of successful block a counterbash may activate instead) or fix reprisal to be equivalent to counterstance in duration allowing reflected damage for longer.

I like the idea for cover like the OP mentioned but instead of making it a trait increase durations or decrease recast to make it user applied. To avoid balance issues this should overwrite shadows because while under this effect the player uncovers their real position to cover others.

Added durability from cheap shot attacks.
New Trait Safeguard, Divine Intervention, Lifeguard or Second Chance,
If total hp is over 50% deathblows from critical damage and instant death can result in HP dropping to 1 instead of a K.O.

That about sums it up..

[Mrbeansman]

@Mrbeansman:

I'd say from past history, it is absurd to say that Paladin's identity to S-E is irrelevant. I would guess you are the very type of sabermetrics geek who cares little about the things that make each job different--in other words, only numbers matter in the game. S-E, given past actions, appears to disagree or it would not have made such extensive efforts to return White Mage to the top of the healing order. What many of us are saying is that S-E needs to follow suit in the case of Paladin where tanking is concerned. Evasion tanking has its place, but that's called soloing in most cases. Counter-tanking by Monks can hardly be considered tanking in the sense of reducing one's own damage. If not for an alert White Mage, that Monk would not be long for the world no matter how much HP it has.

I stand by my post and repeat that it is necessary for S-E to return Paladins to the top of the tanking order with the same energy as they have done so with White Mage and healing.

Nothing was done that made whm the best the only thing that changed is that we got more hp so cure IV wasn't cutting it anymore. Can you give me on reason that pld should be the best tank that isn't based on what you want? The numbers are all that matters because the numbers are what makes the game go round. Sorry if you don't like it that's just how it is.

[Akujima]

Can you give me one reason that pld should be the best tank that isn't based on what you want?

"Paladin" is a Tank Class (or has the ability to become one) in nearly every single RPG out there.

At this current moment, PLD fails in all 3 aspects: As a Tank as a Healer or as a Melee. Face the facts.

It's not what I want, it just common sense.

[Zyeriis]

I'll post the same idea for the 3rd-ish time this thread: Native Fencer, Impetus, Berserk, or some other form of damage buff to Paladin to make them less of a waste of space.

Just because you skim my posts doesn't mean I don't mention constructive things. I simply don't repeat them over and over.

Also what Byrth said.

This was the nineteenth post you made in this thread.

Let's track down where you ever said anything about adding anything, especially anything about native fencer, impetus, or berserk. Oh, if you want to "tl:dr" I can assure you, you never posted about a single one of those things in this entire thread. *Begins copying and pasting*

First Post

Eh, it's arguable that a MNK, DRK, or WAR at the least could still tank better than/as well as PLD even on harder mobs outside Abyssea since they were doing so at 75 anyways. Shields aren't really anything special.
Doesn't add anything.

Second Post

D'oh, yes. Ochain is most definitely the exception to the rule. I'm trying to block it out of my memory right now because T2 VNM upgrade rates make me want to put my head through a wall.
Doesn't add anything.

Third post

It is if you have an Ochain, which definitely does have to be kept in mind since it's really not a "rare" or "difficult to acquire" shield. Also, Shields block TP moves and grant TP where Counters do not, and Counter hard caps at 75% where Ochain blocks at 90%+. Buffing shield in general is a poor choice when Ochain is already god-mode overpowered. Anything they give Shield as a whole has the potential to make Ochain PLD literally invincible.
Not a bad post but it still lacks any form of contribution or idea forming.

Fourth post

Only among low/mid-tier linkshells and players who generally did not know better. This has not been the case in the Endgame scene for the better part of half a decade now (2007-ish?). Half a dozen jobs all tanked better than Paladin before Abyssea, and still tank better than Paladin now.



Melee could always take hits. Like, seriously, this has never been a problem for melees. The only reason DD jobs got a bad rap for "Dying easily" is because most DDs sucked and didn't carry PDT/MDT sets. A Monk with 40 Def and -50% PDT in gear is going to take way less damage than a "Typical/Classic" Paladin in 600 Defense and 0 PDT.



Paladin is a sword wielding Melee job with access to White Magic, Shield bonuses, and some Defensive traits/JA. Whether or not that equates to being a tank is up to the players. As it stands, that particular combination is lackluster at best. Tanks do much better avoiding hits entirely than they would "Taking them for less damage". I had to put less damage in quotes because Paladin really doesn't take less damage than anyone else without an Ochain.
Doesn't add anything.

Fifth post

Okay.



Until it is against the ToS to play jobs any way the players want, this will always be the case.



No. This is an incorrect analogy. The Developers build the maze. The Players then determine the fastest/best/most efficient course throughout the maze. When Route A takes twice as much time and energy to traverse as Route B, Route A will likely be discarded in favor of Route B.



White Mage doesn't have to be a healer. It is simply well equipped to be a healer. Whether or not it is efficient for White Mage to be a healer is left to the determination of the player base.
Doesn't add anything

Sixth post

I never assumed there were two routes. Would you rather I had included 3 routes in my expository? 4? There are an infinite number of routes in any given maze when the player is free to move in all four directions. Players will still find the fastest/most efficient route. Players can also eliminate a near infinite amount of routes via common sense. It would not be prudent to go forward and then immediately take a step backwards. Nor would it be at all smart to repeat the above process multiple times. I figured that was common sense.

As for twisting words, kindly refrain from projecting your angst onto me. I have not twisted anything. I have taken your words at face value. Do not blame me if you find yourself unable to properly convey what it is you are trying to say.
Doesn't add anything.

Seventh post

The concept of Tanking, the Paladin job, and the desirability/love/adoration of Paladin pre-Abyssea are three different things. I will not address them together, as that would be a fallacy.

1) Desirability of Paladin pre-Abyssea:

As I already said, only mid/low-tier shells "Loved" Paladin as much as you claim it was loved. Good shells were already using Monk, Samurai, and Dark Knight tanks and killing things twice as fast. In these shells, the only Paladins were pretty much just the established oldies who loved their Aegis/Excal shinies. No Endgame Linkshell of any tier ever needed "More" Paladins. It was not in high demand. Either a shell had their tanks (whether they're Drks, Sams, Rdms, Mnks, or Plds), or they didn't and they weren't really a shell.

2) The Paladin Job:

I actually don't have anything more to say about Paladin. You haven't said anything about Paladin either. I'll leave this as is, as it is moot.

3) The concept of tanking:

It is always better to not get hit than to get hit. Period. Always. Every single time. Zero is always less than any positive number. That is all there is to it. As long as the option to not get hit exists, getting hit will never, ever be preferable, let alone ideal.
Doesn't add anything.

Eighth Post


I can engage in combat and still not get hit. Two birds with one stone. Booyah.
Doesn't add anything.

This is where I interject. 8 posts of non-contributions, I respond directly to you about how you're not contributing at all.

Ninth Post

True enough, ha.



It has everything to do with the post I specifically replied to. Don't be mad just because two people chose to post about something aside from Paladin Modifications #9001. We were on topic, get over it.



This is because all jobs are fundamentally the same. Jobs do not define your character. Jobs augment your base character with Skills, Traits, Abilities, and Spells. It does not make them function any differently from one another. That is simply how the game was designed, how it works, and how it will always work. This cannot be changed.

What you seem to want is a different game. In all honesty, that may be the best option for you. I'm not trying to tell you to "gtfo", but there is a market for video games for a reason. You seem to dislike how FFXI works from its very core. Your adjustments practically ask for an entirely new game with the Ninja/Final Fantasy label on it. I honestly think you would be happier just trying out different games until you find one that suits you better.



I refuse to be told what I "Can" or "Cannot" do based on my job. The Developers have always supported the freedom to attempt as wide a variety of techniques as the playerbase wants to. Heck, we have surprised them with our ingenuity quite a few times now. It does not matter how a job is "Meant" to be played, or what role it's "Supposed" to have. We, the players, will find the role that is most effective for it, even if that role is benchwarming.

@Karinya:

Utsusemi's already been nerfed a couple times. I doubt the Devs are in any rush at all to nerf Utsusemi or Haste just because some Paladins complain. That is, more than they've already nerfed them.
Doesn't add anything.

Tenth Post

I am a Paladin. An old one, and a good one. I've always considered it one of my favorite jobs. Unlike many other posters here, however, I'm in favor of realistic additions to the job rather than nonsense. You want a complete overhaul of the cRatio system. Arcon wants a complete overhaul of the Enmity system. As far as I'm concerned, both ideas are rubbish since you may as well rewrite the entire game from scratch if you want to fundamentally alter the core game mechanics in such a way.

I'm not sure you're understanding what I said earlier, either. Utsusemi and Haste have already been nerfed multiple times in the game's history. I simply find it unlikely that these core attributes are ever going to be considered for yet another nerf simply because a few people are upset that their job is not #1.

I never said that any amount of complaining would stop a nerf. I said that some paltry complaining is not going to cause one.
Doesn't add anything.

Eleventh Post

The system is what the system is. FFXI is a game, it has rules, it has a system in place. When the ideal playstyle in that system does not coincide with the style you want to play, you can either adjust yourself to match the game, or you attempt to adjust the game to match you.

I don't call every idea rubbish. I call rubbish ideas rubbish. I'm not sitting here insulting anyone. If someone considers being told they're wrong insulting, that's their own problem.

I believe calling the system broken is a matter of perspective. Is it working the way Tanaka-san and the Development Team envisioned it should over a decade ago? Probably not. Is the current system defunct in such a way that it prevents players from playing the game? No. The game can be played perfectly fine. People have been playing it fine for years now, with the same system intact.

Do I think the system is broken? Naw. People can play in this system just fine. The only ones who can't are those who insist that they should be able to play optimally while playing the game "The way they want".

Do I think Paladin could use some adjustments? Definitely. But anything involving Defense is a lost cause. CDC and Ochain were monumental steps in the right direction. Sure, it's a localized boost since it requires two Empyreans, but it's an incredibly solid boost. Paladin needs to not be a waste of a party slot in order for it to be useful, as right now plenty of other jobs can serve as a better tank that deals more damage and takes less.
Doesn't add anything.

Twelfth Post

They've been able to do that for ... years.
Doesn't add anything.

Thirteenth Post

I'm not trolling and it's not word play. DD jobs being able to survive while maintaining capped Enmity and dealing damage is nothing new and has been happening for years. I've seen people tank Khimaira on Corsair =/. It's not hard for anyone to stay alive against an NM, and if the Devs were to make it harder, Paladins would simply suffer too since they're not really much better at staying alive than some other jobs (and some are just plain better than Paladin at staying alive).
Doesn't add anything.

Fourteenth Post

How is saying that other jobs can hit capped PDT with damage-mitigating abilities of equal or greater strength than a shield "Basing things on personal experience"? It has nothing to do with personal experience. It is simply how the game works. Paladin does not really have anything so unique in the damage mitigation department that other jobs are unable to reach the same defensive peaks while maintaining a stronger offense. Obviously, this excludes Ochain.

I never called you rubbish. I called ideas rubbish, whether they're yours or not. You take things too personally. I'm the only one being personally "attacked" in this thread, and I'm not even getting mad about it. I've already mentioned once or twice (honestly, why repeat myself 5 dozen times?), as have plenty of other posters of a similar mindset, that Paladin only really needs a proper offensive buff to make it relevant enough that it wouldn't be a complete and utter waste of a slot.

I mean, as far as Abyssea is concerned Paladin will always be a waste of a slot, but who cares? Abyssea is midgame content in a niche environment. Making Paladin interchangeable or even occasionally viable among DD tanks is more than sufficient for overworld content, and the way to do that is to give Paladin more of a punch. Considering the premise of the job, it's unlikely Paladin will ever really be "Top Dog" or "Absolutely Vital" in FFXI.
All that is said is that you want an offensive buff, while giving no ideas. Thus, doesn't add anything.

Up to 15 posts already?

If an idea here had potential I'd run with it. All I see in your post is:

"I want to play Dungeons and Dragons Online. I do not care that this is Final Fantasy XI, and is its own Entity with its own rules and mechanics. If Class A and Class B do not do what they do in other games, then the rules and mechanics are obviously flawed."

If you want to play a game that is not Final Fantasy XI, play a game that is not Final Fantasy XI. Meanwhile, those of us who can cope with the fact that there are certain fundamental things about the game that will always remain the same will be brainstorming ideas for the advancement of the Paladin job that are feasible to implement and actually address the problems Paladin has.

And for what it's worth, Byrth's post was directed at Zy, not me.

@Zy: I never said Paladin has never been the best at anything. I said, for the past few years, other jobs have been able to tank better than Paladin on pretty much every NM in the game. From a purely defensive standpoint? RDM does it way better, Dark Knight does it just as well, Monk does it better, Samurai can do it just as well, and Ninja can do it just as well depending on the NM. From an Enmity standpoint? Pretty much every DD in the game does it as well or better. From a Damage standpoint? Again, most jobs do it better.

This has nothing to do with personal experience. This has nothing to do with some Paladins sucking or some DDs being amazing. I've had the privilege of playing with some absolutely amazing Paladins, and I'm not a huge slouch myself. Other jobs can simply mitigate damage more consistently while dealing more damage and, thus, maintaining equal/greater enmity values and ending fights sooner.

Edit2: As for Paladin being the best damage mitigation right now, blame that on Ochain. It's an incredibly powerful shield, and I've mentioned another half dozen times in this thread alone that I'm leaving it out of the picture for now.
Doesn't add anything.

Sixteenth Post

Last I checked, you determined a game's genre based on what it is; you don't determine what it is based on the game's genre.

If it is so disturbing to call FFXI an MMORPG, call it something else. Or just call it FFXI. I thought you were the one telling me to think outside the box in your Shuriken thread. Now you want FFXI to conform to the box or else? Classy.

Finally, if I piss you off so much, you're welcome to vent about me on other sites where you're free to call me a doo doo head without fear of moderator reprisal. Link me for lulz please.
Doesn't add anything.

Seventeenth Post

Adjusting fundamental mechanics formulas is like changing the rules of Monopoly 5 hours into the game because you don't think collecting $200 every time you pass go is enough for people who don't have Boardwalk and Park Place.
Doesn't add anything.

Eighteenth Post

If you can't tell the difference between adjusting fStr and cRatio/pDif calculations and adjusting the EXP loss curve then I just don't know what else to tell you.

Oh, and I'm not trolling. I'm simply putting up with your repeated personal attacks without retaliating or reporting you like a champ. Does that really hurt your feelings so much? You seem pretty mad.

Edit: Nvm, he's way more mad.
Doesn't add anything.

Guess what post came next?

[Zyeriis]

Here are a few suggestions.

Enmity Cap (possible fix)
New Ability Champion
While under this effect (equal to composure in recast and duration) each JA ability, attack or spell directly targeted on a claimed enemy reduces hate pool of others on it's hate list except the player with champion active. If multiple champions are active then the effects are multiplied but each paladin reduces the hate of each other equally in the enemies hate pool as well as others.

Tank damage mitigation and effectiveness.
May add effect counterbash to shield blocking (instead of successful block a counterbash may activate instead) or fix reprisal to be equivalent to counterstance in duration allowing reflected damage for longer.

I like the idea for cover like the OP mentioned but instead of making it a trait increase durations or decrease recast to make it user applied. To avoid balance issues this should overwrite shadows because while under this effect the player uncovers their real position to cover others.

Added durability from cheap shot attacks.
New Trait Safeguard, Divine Intervention, Lifeguard or Second Chance,
If total hp is over 50% deathblows from critical damage and instant death can result in HP dropping to 1 instead of a K.O.

That about sums it up..

I'll have to mull over most of this post but what caught my eye was the mention of making cover and utsusemi conflict. It's pretty interesting to say the least. Cover really shouldn't work with shadows because you, as the paladin, literally have to be between the enemy and the player as an actual physical block against the attack. Shadows taking the hit doesn't make sense as the attack is aimed at a different person, it just hits the paladin. Anyway, it gave me a few ideas to toy around with.

The counterstance thing gives me a bit to think about as well.

[Arcon]

Can you give me on reason that pld should be the best tank that isn't based on what you want? The numbers are all that matters because the numbers are what makes the game go round. Sorry if you don't like it that's just how it is.

That argument is tiring and oh so wrong. Yes, it's how it is. How is that an argument, for anything? Welcome to the tautology club. You just said what you said.

It's about what can be and what should be. Why shouldn't we ask for things to be how we want them? Isn't that the entire purpose of feedback? And SE acted on it too in the past, in fact quite a lot. If players never said anything, they wouldn't have adjusted anything at all. I dare you to point out one update in which they didn't add/fix anything suggested by players.

A reason that isn't based on what I want? Because from a role-playing aspect, a paladin is always a knight that focuses on defense more than offense. In fact, I'll go so far as to say PLD is the only (from a role-playing aspect) defensive class in the game, meant to be able to take damage. To a lesser degree, WAR and MNK would also qualify (not because of Counter or Evasion, but because of Defense/Defender and high HP/VIT/Chakra). And in addition to that, it has lots of native hate tools, even JAs that amplify enmity. Put both those things together and you see that PLD was clearly meant to be a tank. If those things don't make it a good tank, then it's a waste of a job, because that's what it was designed to do. Or do you think that's the intention of SE? To make PLD a town job, because of their shiny armor?

[Akujima]

A reason that isn't based on what I want? Because from a role-playing aspect, a paladin is always a knight that focuses on defense more than offense. In fact, I'll go so far as to say PLD is the only (from a role-playing aspect) defensive class in the game, meant to be able to take damage. To a lesser degree, WAR and MNK would also qualify (not because of Counter or Evasion, but because of Defense/Defender and high HP/VIT/Chakra). And in addition to that, it has lots of native hate tools, even JAs that amplify enmity. Put both those things together and you see that PLD was clearly meant to be a tank. If those things don't make it a good tank, then it's a waste of a job, because that's what it was designed to do. Or do you think that's the intention of SE? To make PLD a town job, because of their shiny armor?

Anyone wanting to put up a "counter-argument" should please, please, PLEASE, read this paragraph over and over and over and over... and over and over... and over and over.

Thank you.

[Ravenmore]

Just increasing the enmity cap won't do amything as long as they keep adding mobs that can reset hate a will. What they need is a way to keep emnity high be it though a dmg buff or adding pld only spells that have the same emnity as the old low recast high enmity spells that were nerfed from /rdm. That way plds could save the hate spike JAs for after a hate reset.

[Mrbeansman]

"Paladin" is a Tank Class (or has the ability to become one) in nearly every single RPG out there.

And what of it?


At this current moment, PLD fails in all 3 aspects: As a Tank as a Healer or as a Melee. Face the facts.

I am facing the facts I have been for a long time. You on the other hand need to learn how the game works.


It's not what I want, it just common sense.

It is not common sense to completely overhaul how the game works cause you want an inferior job to be better.

[Hayward]

And what of it?



I am facing the facts I have been for a long time. You on the other hand need to learn how the game works.



It is not common sense to completely overhaul how the game works cause you want an inferior job to be better.

Do you intend to actually contribute something to this thread? You're typing an awful lot of words so far without saying a thing. In case you haven't noticed, this isn't the BlueGartr forum where you can be a d-bag for the sake of being one. If you don't care for the solutions offered here, where are YOUR solutions? Don't bother answering, because you don't have any solutions. My suspicions are that you haven't ever unlocked Paladin and that you benefit from the job's exclusion (you're too much of a coward to list your jobs, so I cannot guess how you benefit).

[Akujima]

If you don't care for the solutions offered here, where are YOUR solutions? Don't bother answering, because you don't have any solutions. My suspicions are that you haven't ever unlocked Paladin and that you benefit from the job's exclusion (you're too much of a coward to list your jobs, so I cannot guess how you benefit).

Can I get an "Amen" brotha.

[Carth]

A reason that isn't based on what I want? Because from a role-playing aspect, a paladin is always a knight that focuses on defense more than offense. In fact, I'll go so far as to say PLD is the only (from a role-playing aspect) defensive class in the game, meant to be able to take damage. To a lesser degree, WAR and MNK would also qualify (not because of Counter or Evasion, but because of Defense/Defender and high HP/VIT/Chakra). And in addition to that, it has lots of native hate tools, even JAs that amplify enmity. Put both those things together and you see that PLD was clearly meant to be a tank. If those things don't make it a good tank, then it's a waste of a job, because that's what it was designed to do. Or do you think that's the intention of SE? To make PLD a town job, because of their shiny armor?
I personally find this hilarious.

Red Mage has been using this argument for a long, long time, even longer than any other job and it has got them nowhere.

Summoner was in the same boat as Red Mage (and in a way still is until 75), and they clammored just as loudly (until 75).

Scholar, now that they're in full identity-crisis mode, are in the same boat as Red Mage since they are literally a White Mage and Black Mage wrapped into one and specifically meant to compete with the roles of those jobs instead of having it's own niche.

And now Paladins finally woke up and smelled the coffee, and want to use the same exact argument in that "this is what we're supposed to do"?

Allow me to be the first to say, this entire argument will collapse right on top of you. Red Mages and Summoners had to accept the reality that the game does not follow the history nor the lore behind them and Square will not take the steps to change that. So I have to say what literally thousands have said to them and say "deal with it".

[Mrbeansman]

Do you intend to actually contribute something to this thread? You're typing an awful lot of words so far without saying a thing. In case you haven't noticed, this isn't the BlueGartr forum where you can be a d-bag for the sake of being one. If you don't care for the solutions offered here, where are YOUR solutions? Don't bother answering, because you don't have any solutions. My suspicions are that you haven't ever unlocked Paladin and that you benefit from the job's exclusion (you're too much of a coward to list your jobs, so I cannot guess how you benefit).

http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Quetzalcoatl/Mrbeansman

You seem to think I hate pld and never want it to be viable. If SE can make pld a good tank without breaking other aspects of the game I say go for it. That said the only options to fix pld atm require changing the game around it which should never be an option. A lot of people in this thread seem to feel entitled to take whatever they want from other jobs in the name of making pld "THE" tank job.

PS I'm not trying to be a d-bag I'm trying to be a realist.

[Greatguardian]

This was the nineteenth post you made in this thread.

Let's track down where you ever said anything about adding anything, especially anything about native fencer, impetus, or berserk. Oh, if you want to "tl:dr" I can assure you, you never posted about a single one of those things in this entire thread. *Begins copying and pasting*

First Post

Doesn't add anything.

Second Post

Doesn't add anything.

Third post

Not a bad post but it still lacks any form of contribution or idea forming.

Fourth post

Doesn't add anything.

Fifth post

Doesn't add anything

Sixth post

Doesn't add anything.

Seventh post

Doesn't add anything.

Eighth Post


Doesn't add anything.

This is where I interject. 8 posts of non-contributions, I respond directly to you about how you're not contributing at all.

Ninth Post

Doesn't add anything.

Tenth Post

Doesn't add anything.

Eleventh Post

Doesn't add anything.

Twelfth Post

Doesn't add anything.

Thirteenth Post

Doesn't add anything.

Fourteenth Post

All that is said is that you want an offensive buff, while giving no ideas. Thus, doesn't add anything.

Up to 15 posts already?

Doesn't add anything.

Sixteenth Post

Doesn't add anything.

Seventeenth Post

Doesn't add anything.

Eighteenth Post

Doesn't add anything.

Guess what post came next?

Huh. I guess I confused this thread with one of the five freaking hundred (exaggeration) other threads on Paladin that I've responded to. After a while, it does get incredibly tiring of making what you deem "constructive" responses because people will just create a new thread the next day anyways and any effort I expended writing a nice, thoughtful suggestion would be for naught.

If it hasn't been made clear already, I can't stand repeating myself. With that said, I'm also not even required to post my own ideas for Paladin when discussing yours. I'll tell you the same thing I told Akujima in his thread. If you want to post a thesis, you have to be prepared to defend it from criticism. If your idea has holes, people will point out those holes. If your idea has flaws, people will take issue with the flaws. If your idea is closed minded (it is), people will be less likely to pay you an open mind when considering it.

A complete overhaul of the game's mechanics affects every single job in the game, not just Paladin. You say "Oh, well, it may be a slight DD nerf but really that's okay because they're too strong anyways". That doesn't mean it's right to ostracize each of the other 19 jobs in the game for the sake of buffing Paladin in such a way that, even then, only some of the game's Paladins would actually be happier.

You need to learn to take and respond to criticism. All I've seen from you is rage, "Where is your argument????", "Stop Flaming", and "You're not contributing anything". I don't need to present an alternative in order to dislike your idea and post contrary to it. If I say you're wrong, you need to either accept that and change your presentation or deny that and show me why you're right. That's how a discussion works.

And before I get called out for "Being happy that Paladin is excluded", Hayward should recognize my name. I am most definitely an old school Paladin, and I love the job. In fact, I love it so much that I actually care when people offer really freaking bad suggestions for it.

[Arcon]

I personally find this hilarious.

Red Mage has been using this argument for a long, long time, even longer than any other job and it has got them nowhere.

Summoner was in the same boat as Red Mage (and in a way still is until 75), and they clammored just as loudly (until 75).

Scholar, now that they're in full identity-crisis mode, are in the same boat as Red Mage since they are literally a White Mage and Black Mage wrapped into one and specifically meant to compete with the roles of those jobs instead of having it's own niche.

And now Paladins finally woke up and smelled the coffee, and want to use the same exact argument in that "this is what we're supposed to do"?

Allow me to be the first to say, this entire argument will collapse right on top of you. Red Mages and Summoners had to accept the reality that the game does not follow the history nor the lore behind them and Square will not take the steps to change that. So I have to say what literally thousands have said to them and say "deal with it".

I find that argument kinda groundless. How has it got them nowhere? Admitted, RDM isn't as useful as it used to be, it can still buff very well and almost heal as good as WHM. Maybe not on highest tier NMs, when high level cure spams would be required, but that, again, is kinda how it's supposed to be. White Mage should remain the best healer. Apart from that, lower tier cures, but still useful, almost the same buffs as WHM, at least the ones that matter, better enfeebling options, Refresh II, Phalanx II, Dia III, light nuking, etc. They may not be used for healing as much as they used to, but in my opinion, Lv75 was a bit unadjusted in that regard.

SMNs also are still SMNs, still useful, still good soloers (better than before), can be used to hold/kite/track mobs, magical/physical attacks, less MP worries, more avatars, more strategic uses, etc.

And all I hear SCH asking for is Cure V, which I can somewhat understand, but don't feel strongly either way (and I am a SCH as well). They can nuke on par with BLMs, have more strategic options, although most people are simply too lazy to utilize them.

Sorry, but I don't really see your argument at all. The game does follow the history and lore behind the job descriptions, and SE has repeatedly released updates to reflect that. The only exception I can think of is NIN. It took them years until they recognized NIN as a tank, because that's not what they wanted them to be, but what the players made them. And players held on to that idea so much, that they had no choice but to give in, and to this day NIN still retains its original qualities. All other jobs still retain their original ideas and qualities, SAM can tank decently with the right gear, DRG has utility functions, THF is a bit gimped in the Stealing/Mugging department, but that's it, they even got a huge TH boost now.

All in all, SE has done a nice job keeping the jobs at their respective duties. And as I said before, it's not even that PLD is inherently flawed, but the current game simply doesn't allow them to play their role as intended.

[Ravenmore]

You haven't read any of the rdm melee threads? How bout jack of all trades yet SE decided out the blue to nerf rdm tanking after they used rdm/nin on JoL and AV in thier little vid.

[Greatguardian]

I find that argument kinda groundless. How has it got them nowhere?

It got them an Accuracy buff on Composure and a Sword WS that decreases Magic Evasion. As a RDM who isn't obsessed with melee for some godforsaken reason, these buffs are annoying at best. Why? Opportunity cost. The more tweaks added to a useless feature, the fewer tweaks left for a useful one. Inb4 I get swarmed for this because all the Rdms who post on these forums are melee fanatics.


And as I said before, it's not even that PLD is inherently flawed, but the current game simply doesn't allow them to play their role as intended.

The idea of a Blood Tank in FFXI is inherently flawed. In that sense, "Pure" Paladin is most definitely flawed from the get-go. I'm having trouble determining the scale with which you're talking about the "current game" here though. If you mean "Post-Abyssea/ToAU where DDs are stronger and take as little damage", I agree it keeps Pld/Nin from keeping up properly. If you mean "Final Fantasy XI with its current pDif/cRatio/Enmity functions", then you're right that it does prevent bloodtanking Paladin from ever being useful but I don't think it warrants a change on the scale which you tend to propose.

[Sarick]

Anyone wanting to put up a "counter-argument" should please, please, PLEASE, read this paragraph over and over and over and over... and over and over... and over and over.

Thank you.

Something to think about.

I once heard a saying that stated. "Sometimes the best defense is a good offense"

This is what makes monks counter tanking effective. With counterbash added or reprisal modified this might comply with the wise wisdom I quoted above. Even a job meant for taking damage and abuse should be allowed to utilize offensive damage mitigation. It's just common sense.

Take a for example, warships carry phalanx cannons to destroy incoming rockets before they hit. This is what phalanx really is as well but damage isn't reflected it's countered with a null effect. Reprisal in my book is just a form of a reactive armor added to the shield. To bad it doesn't last very long and has a relatively long recast.

[Ravenmore]

I know some would say rl is not the same as the game but we already use our weapons as a defensive tool though parrying sucks and it not relieable. Thats still not a good reason why a shield couldn't be used as a in a simlier way for offense.

Sar though when you wrote reactive armor first thing I thought of was the M-1's armor and a pld getting a shoulder fired RPG throw at them. See if PLD can "Tank" that(ok that was a pretty bad pun) .

[Mrbeansman]

You're typing an awful lot of words so far without saying a thing. In case you haven't noticed, this isn't the BlueGartr forum where you can be a d-bag for the sake of being one.

For anyone making these kinds of post you do know that acting like this is a great way to get shit canned into the alligator fuck house by Isladar right?

[Carth]

I find that argument kinda groundless. How has it got them nowhere? Admitted, RDM isn't as useful as it used to be, it can still buff very well and almost heal as good as WHM. Maybe not on highest tier NMs, when high level cure spams would be required, but that, again, is kinda how it's supposed to be. White Mage should remain the best healer. Apart from that, lower tier cures, but still useful, almost the same buffs as WHM, at least the ones that matter, better enfeebling options, Refresh II, Phalanx II, Dia III, light nuking, etc. They may not be used for healing as much as they used to, but in my opinion, Lv75 was a bit unadjusted in that regard.
Go on the RDM forums, because you have no idea what I'm talking about.

Seriously, go read it, because the above quote does not touch anything I have said.


SMNs also are still SMNs, still useful, still good soloers (better than before), can be used to hold/kite/track mobs, magical/physical attacks, less MP worries, more avatars, more strategic uses, etc.
Before 75. During the era when SMNs are just gimped WHMs because SE never bothered to fix the inherent flaw of SMN (their avatars suck without doing 1k+ blood pacts).



And all I hear SCH asking for is Cure V, which I can somewhat understand, but don't feel strongly either way (and I am a SCH as well). They can nuke on par with BLMs, have more strategic options, although most people are simply too lazy to utilize them.
No, SCH was better than BLM and right on par with WHM before Abyssea, because they were MP efficient. They casted more nukes and had similar methods of healing to a WHM. Now that they're second-rate to both jobs they finally realized who they were.



Inb4 I get swarmed for this because all the Rdms who post on these forums are melee fanatics.
While I support melee buffs (because the job has no direction from what I've seen thus far), I personally don't care what RDM get as long as it's a good, or even just a decent update.

[Eeek]

It got them an Accuracy buff on Composure and a Sword WS that decreases Magic Evasion. As a RDM who isn't obsessed with melee for some godforsaken reason, these buffs are annoying at best. Why? Opportunity cost. The more tweaks added to a useless feature, the fewer tweaks left for a useful one. Inb4 I get swarmed for this because all the Rdms who post on these forums are melee fanatics.

Oh God, I couldn't agree with this more.

(Although I do really like Composure for the buff duration bonuses.)

I'm building a melee set just for goofing off solo on RDM/NIN or RDM/BLU, but any RDM should be able to recognize that RDM is a bottom-of-the-barrel DD. RDM's strength is in party play, and while RDM isn't a premiere healer as in the 75cap days (and it never should have been the most sought-after healer), it's still a strong support mage. RDM cripples mobs with enfeebles while curing and nuking as needed.

I don't know why so few RDMs in-game take meleeing seriously while forum RDMs (across several forums) harp on it endlessly. It's like they will not let go of a 7-year-old grudge. I'd take their complaints more seriously if players were limited to one leveled job per character.

RDM isn't the only mage that can wield weapons. All of them can.

RDM is plenty strong even in the age of Abyssea. If my LS/friends have all the required jobs covered for NM killing sprees, then the first thing that happens is that I'm asked to change to RDM. The added support, nukes, and especially enfeebles make a very noticeable difference. I enjoy the hell out of it.

[Zyeriis]

Huh. I guess I confused this thread with one of the five freaking hundred (exaggeration) other threads on Paladin that I've responded to. After a while, it does get incredibly tiring of making what you deem "constructive" responses because people will just create a new thread the next day anyways and any effort I expended writing a nice, thoughtful suggestion would be for naught.

Can't say I didn't see that pathetic deflection coming: "i was wrong but i wasn't because I did what I said I did, just not here". Why'd you even bother posting? You know, aside from not actually contributing.


If it hasn't been made clear already, I can't stand repeating myself. With that said, I'm also not even required to post my own ideas for Paladin when discussing yours. I'll tell you the same thing I told Akujima in his thread. If you want to post a thesis, you have to be prepared to defend it from criticism. If your idea has holes, people will point out those holes. If your idea has flaws, people will take issue with the flaws. If your idea is closed minded (it is), people will be less likely to pay you an open mind when considering it.

If it hasn't been made clear yet, when I interjected, you had yet to say anything about anything. Do I need to go quote you again? If you want to post about a flaw in some one elses idea, you have to actually talk about one of those ideas. If you can't do that, and you weren't, then you're going to be called out on it.



A complete overhaul of the game's mechanics affects every single job in the game, not just Paladin. You say "Oh, well, it may be a slight DD nerf but really that's okay because they're too strong anyways". That doesn't mean it's right to ostracize each of the other 19 jobs in the game for the sake of buffing Paladin in such a way that, even then, only some of the game's Paladins would actually be happier.
Yes, because Paladin is the only job that would be positively affected by such a reconstruction of a system that you admit is flawed, and has been flawed from the beginning. Your opinion of whether or not it is necessary is irrelevant to it being a possible solution. It may not be a "necessary" tweak but, then again, there really isn't such a thing as a "necessary" tweak to anything in the game. They didn't "have" to "fix" hundreds of things over the years (such as having to "set" your mog-house) but they did.

Edit: You seem to fail to realize what revising the scale of str vs. vit would actually mean. You can call it a nerf all you want but you are only saying that because its a reduction. You also seem to think that it would only affect players but, here's the thing: it would affect enemies as well. It would make VIT/defense actually relevant, stat-wise and THAT's it. The entire game's damage would be scaled back, yes. So what? It would be the exact same thing, except everything and everyone would be tougher. From there, they could scale the enemies up to the already mentioned "level 110+" marks to make them challenging enough to warrant the use of PLD and blood tanking. Note that I'm stating both things as separate entities rather than just one (as you have done before). PLD wouldn't be the only blood tank but, you're right in regards to it being the best. I want to make blood tanking relevant, as it should be. "Evasion" tanking isn't actually "tanking", its contradictory to the term.


You need to learn to take and respond to criticism. All I've seen from you is rage, "Where is your argument????", "Stop Flaming", and "You're not contributing anything". I don't need to present an alternative in order to dislike your idea and post contrary to it. If I say you're wrong, you need to either accept that and change your presentation or deny that and show me why you're right. That's how a discussion works.
And you need to learn how to give criticism. All I've seen from you is "This is WHY Paladin is flawed", "You're wrong because I said so", "U mad!". I don't need to defend against criticisms that aren't there.

There's a difference between "pointing out a flaw and trying to figure out a way to get rid of that flaw" (called being constructive) and just knocking an idea because you think it would be too much work (called being lazy) or just saying the idea is flawed and putting absolutely no effort into proposing an alternative. You can claim you're trying to "discuss" something but you offer nothing other than: "you're wrong". Discussions aren't: "Here's an idea" > "You're wrong" > "Here's an idea" > "You're wrong", and this is disregarding the spew of posts you made before even your ever-so-elegant "pointing out flaws" posts where you said a lot of words but, ultimately said nothing at all.