Tactics/advice thread

[Glamdring]

Starting this thread as a place where pups can ask and receive advice from those more "in the know"

[Glamdring]

I'm my own 1st customer, joy!

OK, on to the questions. As everyone knows, lower-level parties are almost impossible to find. Consequently, unless you just wanna leech in Abby you better get ready to solo. OK, NP, I went 1-75 as a bst/brd solo, I can grind with the best of them. The problem is all the solo guides I can find are primarily for the red or whm frames, with only a few specific exceptions. The standing advice for skilling sharpshot and valoredge was just to use when you get parties. Well, if anyone is paying attention to this post I'm not getting parties.

The other posts I've been reading say it takes FOREVER to skill those 2 frames if they are lagging much by the time you reach end-game. But solo, my pup/war is losing ALOT of SS/VE autos, and occasionally I'm dropping dead too. I have access to /nin, dnc, whm, rdm, thf, bst and brd if I need, and I know the 1st 4 can work but aren't as reccommended due to the difficulty getting hate off the auto. Nonetheless, I'd like to be able to at least connect on VE and SS when I hit 75 and can Abyssea. Obviously, mage frames are easy to skill, even leeching (whm pup, put in tank pt please, pup on steady diet of ice/light/dark with mage atmas). I'm ready for 75+anyway with some sweet pet gear from ACP/MKT/ASA (I used for beast), but as I said, I gotta cover 64-75 1st.

Any advice you guys can give so I can be a PUPPETmaster, not a PAPERWEIGHTmaster?

[xbobx]

Well get pup up to 30 or so using mage frames for now. dont worry about the lack of skillup. Spend some time later with your level 90 and sub pup and use rng frame. You can cap its skill to 45 this way. Of what it seems, skillup rates were improved drastically for low level, but really suffer over 200. So I think you could probably skillup the ranged and melee fast enough this way.
It is after that you will have an issue. Magic is easy to skillup using the curse tower thing in omg i cant remember the name, the place off of pashhow, shows how often i go to old zones. You just stand there and let him cursna you over and over.
Either way, at high level you are in for a nightmare, puppets seem to skillup at a rate a lot less then normal jobs or masters do, or at least it feels that way.

[Dfoley]

1) For solo just use survivability:
/ dnc or nin are ideal 30+ for solo. 50+ you can go for /war and use whm.

2) Dont bother trying to skill up and level at the same time, youll just die a lot. At 30 I went and got SS skill from 0 to capped for 25. Then repeated that again at 50 (capped for 45) since 5 levels over a mob is enough to let your pet tank it pretty reliably.

3) After 200 skill there are no short cuts, other then getting burts. The increased # of WS will increase your skill up chances. At 75 I had it capped at 68ish. Then i just went 75 to 90 and still only had lvl 75 skill. Got burts and its gone up to 85ish now.

[Glamdring]

64 now already. I had no trouble 1-49, pretty easy actually. But I leached 50-60 and hadn't used sharpshot for about 12 levels before that. I satisfied a 95 skill level gap over the last 2 days, but now I'm facing 20+ on magic and Melee (on those frames).

Sounds like you guys are reccommending just leaching now to 89+ and spamming skills in aby parties? will I even be able to use those frames in aby with all the skill gap? I hate being dead weight, but VE and SS are both good sources of DD when you want to have ranged or melee damage... if you can actually hit anything. Will my acc/atk gear and Atma be enough to overcome the skill gap? It is on me, but I've never had this large of a gap as I would with a leeched Auto (well, parry, guard and shield, but who doesn't?).

What I don't want to do is go out to solo needing to carry 20 stacks of oil+2! I also want to at least get to 60 cap on all frames so I can start spamming pulling the strings/targeting the captain for those attachments that are never on AH... or are there for $1.3 mil!

[xbobx]

You will get better skillup outside abyessa. It is just so tough. That is why I wish they would just get rid of the skill caps on puppets and be like other pet jobs. Bst doesnt have to skillup jug melee skill, or drgs wyvern skill.

Smn is the only other pet job that has to do skill but they only have one skill to level up, although it also is a pain but with the change they made, it will go much faster to.

[Dfoley]

You dont need repair oil to skill up, just use Deus ex automata.

I would personally recomend skilling up to armor piercer for ranged before heading to abyssea since it ignores defense its a solid dd option, for melee just get canibal blade.

For magic you really do wanna keep it caped but theres an easy way for that, use the whm and have it spam cursna in certain zones.

You really wont be dding much with ve/ss till youi get burts or are really lucky and find a non retarded exp alliance that doesnt mind the occasional ruby light

[Frapp]

Glam, the only suggestion I can give you as far as skilling up the Automaton is to just get out there and fight. As long as you're fighting things stronger than the Automaton's skill, there will be skill ups. I've had PUP at 90 for months and my Auto Melee and Auto Ranged still isn't capped (but is damn close). Just keep at it. You'll get there.

To help you skill up though, try to find a Coiler (a drop from the NM Ob). It allows for and increases the double attack rate for melee swings, dependent on Thunder Maneuvers. On Sharpshot, utilize the Drum Magazine, if you have it, and offset the reduced ranged accuracy with the Scope. More frequent attacks = more chances at skillups.

Also, feel free to DD with Valoredge and Sharpshot. Learn how to use the Automatons inside and out (goes for Mage Frames too). While I will agree with Dfoley that the Burattinaios (Burts) is an amazing weapon, a lot of PUPs DD'd just fine without them and still do. If you get them, great, but they're not completely necessary for VE/SS as Dfoley is making them out to be.

[Dfoley]

You people and your selective reading:


3) After 200 skill there are no short cuts, other then getting burts. The increased # of WS will increase your skill up chances. At 75 I had it capped at 68ish. Then i just went 75 to 90 and still only had lvl 75 skill. Got burts and its gone up to 85ish now.

Thats what I said, and you interpert that to mean:

If you get them, great, but they're not completely necessary for VE/SS as Dfoley is making them out to be.


I never said they were completely necessary (although they are if you want to rock out like a true hardcore pup), just that they are amazingly helpful at speeding up the skill up process 200+ because like you said "extra swings = extra chances to skill up" which is what they add.

And lets be honest, a pup is 99% more likely to get burts then Verethragna, and while both are good burts is probably the single best dd weapon for a pup, so eventually yes it will become necessary.

[Frapp]

You people and your selective reading
How ironic. It's not selective reading if I'm reading how every PUP needs a Burts in every one of your posts about PUP that I read or reply to. The completely necessary (emphasis yours) was in regards to that observation.


...they are amazingly helpful at speeding up the skill up process 200+ because like you said "extra swings = extra chances to skill up" which is what they add.
I'm not disputing the fact they the Burts are an awesome weapon, and they do increase attack rounds by allowing the Automaton to perform more attacks. My intent was to offer advice to someone who has identified himself as a Level 64 Puppetmaster how to skill up his Automatons without having to use a Level 89 Weapon.

Turboing a job to 90 via Abyssea may not be something he wants to do, or even be able depending on the mentality of the server. On Ragnarok there are a lot of EXP alliance shouts that include "75+" or "Leech (No Thanks)" in the line.


...burts is probably the single best dd weapon for a pup, so eventually yes it will become necessary.
And this is what you continue to say that I'm trying to counter. You're making it seem that any PUP who does not have this weapon will inherently suck. There's more to PUP than pushing buttons and forcing numbers to come out.

[Lyrminas]

For magic you can go to beaudux and camp an afflictor ( Those giant glowing red bongs ) get yourself cursed and engage a mob, I recommend being 60+ so you can afk without the worry of dying. Its a boring way to do it but it gets the job done.

First generate hate on a mob, you can do this by healing next to a fish or a quadav and get its attention, have the automaton engage the mob and make sure the mob is not in melee range of your automaton (Turn around also if you engaged by punching). It will by default attempt to cursna you, at every attempt you'll get re-cursed by the afflictor, now you can AFK until your automaton runs out of mp :). As far as attachments go mana tanks, conserver, manabooster ( Will remove 2 seconds with no ice maneuvers ). DAD as needed as mp gets low.

XbobX has a good idea about having a 90 job and subbing pup to get it to 45level skill. After that its kind of a toss up, I believe you can still do castle Zvhal (S) Fortalices till 75 level skill. There's alot of those in the fortress so skilling up shouldn't be terrible, they do die kinda fast if you're doing melee automatons on them but if you have no other choice, and can't get parties to get it skilled up past that point, this would be your best bet ( I didn't get the luxury of exploiting this until late 75 skill levels ).

Once you have Armor piercer and atmas to compound onto it, like Dfoley says, you start punching out serious numbers in abyssea :D. Now I understand how people say " why do you always talk about burts? " for the level of difficulty ( Not difficult to obtain ) You should make this a top priority even if you're not 89 yet. I've seen you around caitsith, unless you're Glamdring of another server, alot of pups I know on this server have bumped into people grinding for souls and they almost always FLOOR BURRATINAIOS. I would snoop around to see if there are any groups out here, most groups will not charge for the weapon, and if for some reason you can never get lucky with these kinds of groups, you can always solo the T1 > Colorful Abyssite in Visions areas, they tend to be the easiest and try for a T2. Shout in PJueno and offer off the souls or something, I'm certain someone will bite it ( You might even get a few people to come tag along with pops looking to get theirs done as well ). So there is no reason not to plan ahead, for how easy this weapon is to get, it is a total game changer for pup ( If I may be so bold to say ). I'll be as crazy enough to say its a blackbelt for your automaton.

[Dfoley]

Turboing a job to 90 via Abyssea may not be something he wants to do, or even be able depending on the mentality of the server. On Ragnarok there are a lot of EXP alliance shouts that include "75+" or "Leech (No Thanks)" in the line.


And this is what you continue to say that I'm trying to counter. You're making it seem that any PUP who does not have this weapon will inherently suck. There's more to PUP than pushing buttons and forcing numbers to come out.


Your not exactly convincing me you can read, in fact I am starting to wonder even more...

Its not exactly turboing once your 75. If you go back and read, I suggested getting armor piercer before abyssea and then just letting skill ups come. Abyssea is what it is, and you will 'turbo' yourself 75-90. My suggestion of burts was as a way to help skill up from 200+ since it goes so slow. It has nothing to do with ZOMG GO GET IT NOW OR YOU SUCK, EVEN THOUGH YOUR ONLY 64 AND CANT USE IT, I was just saying that once you do get 90, work on getting burts and you will see how much it helps skill up.

I am on ragnarok and I know for a fact your full of bull crap. I have yet to see an exp alliance that didn't have 3-6 leaches. Yes for melee dd people want 80+ for heros but all you need is skill level of a lvl 65 to hit the mobs. I have done multiple jobs and once you hit 225ish skill you hit enough to be worth while compared to the average person who is either afk or leaching.


Now for the rest of your crap...

I am not saying a pup without burts sucks, just that their DD wont be as good as a pup with burts. Its not something you can even argue. Pure melee wise (aka no mage frame) a burts pup will out dd a non burts pup if all their other gear is identical.

Its a weapon every pup should strive for, and its relatively easy to get since there arent that many pups and people will be doing the mob for seals anyways it rots quite a bit.


PS anyone on ragnarok who wants a hand going from 50-75 let me know and I am more then happy to help.

[Lyrminas]

Woot you guys are all on ragnarok :o Maybe ill bump into you guys! since I won't be a caitsithian anymore XD

[Glamdring]

As to the 45 exploit, I had no idea an auto could skill while subbed, but it's a moot point because I was past the $% cap on pup when I made the post. I also knew about the magic one, but I don't use it; I skill magic to full just using red or whm pup while I solo.

My specific problem is only SS/VE frames. Even with /war these guys tend to take hate from me faster than voke comes back up, and going /dnc for Animated Flourish isn't as viable because it doesn't pull as much hate as Voke, costs TP and is on the same 30 second timer anyway. Now VE with a dark manuver for Cannibal has a great deal of survivability, don't get me wrong, and I don't use flashbulb solo to help prevent it taking hate too much, but it still does and then it can get beat down. SS is even worse, because I can't keep up with its damage output even underlevelled, and unlike VE it doesn't have reasonable survivability (and that's with replicator eating my wind manuvers, negating the scope).

Coiler and drum magazine are on my want list, but never available, and I want skills over the 60 cap before tackling Pulling the Strings to get them myself. I am working on getting Zeni so I can start spamming Ob with the LS, but I just started on it (and honestly, who does ZNM anymore?). The REAL pain in the ass is gonna be Animator +1, Einherjar is simply dead. Hopefully, the changes to getting Mythic (that they are planning for down the road) might make that possible someday.

At any rate, that's why my questions were confined to SS/VE, the magic frames are easy.

[Glamdring]

oh, and getting burts is easy, plenty of people fight the NM, the drop isn't THAT rare, and like in my dynamis beast and bard lotting days, who honestly wants pup stuff? there are only 3 pups in my LS and I'm one of them.

[Glamdring]

Come to a conclusion about weaps, based in part on the response I got here. I will get burritos at the earliest opportunity. These will be my weapons for when using SS, VE or when I siomply don't give a rat's ass. But for my mage auto I think I'm going to do an elemental trial; can't decide between the magic acc+ or the magic attack+, thoughts?

[Dfoley]

MAB,

Dont bother with M.ACC at the moment since you wont need it for much.

[Lushipur]

Come to a conclusion about weaps, based in part on the response I got here. I will get burritos at the earliest opportunity. These will be my weapons for when using SS, VE or when I siomply don't give a rat's ass. But for my mage auto I think I'm going to do an elemental trial; can't decide between the magic acc+ or the magic attack+, thoughts?

MAB forever

inside abyssea you have all the mac you will ned from atma (ultimate, merciless matriarch and so on.)
outside abyssea tranquillizer should do all the big work

but mab h2h its so easy to do that, maybe, if you have time to waste, could plan a mac h2h too XD

[Glamdring]

2/3 of the way thru my MAB weap, did in about 9 hours so far. Not difficult, merely time consuming. Although the Ghosts on Ice trial is a bit of a pain when you face skill gaps. Currently 80, my HTH is about 30 off cap and my pup's magic is about 18 off cap thanks to the Aby party I used the Whm pup in. Solo, the only viable place for ghosts under Ice weather is Beaucedine (s), and the bastards hit hard at my progress level.

[Lushipur]

2/3 of the way thru my MAB weap, did in about 9 hours so far. Not difficult, merely time consuming. Although the Ghosts on Ice trial is a bit of a pain when you face skill gaps. Currently 80, my HTH is about 30 off cap and my pup's magic is about 18 off cap thanks to the Aby party I used the Whm pup in. Solo, the only viable place for ghosts under Ice weather is Beaucedine (s), and the bastards hit hard at my progress level.

inside feyin lots of ghost and ice weather (dark too for mac h2h)
ghost cons from TW to EP, so you have to let the TW depops pulling and running away...maybe they will pop EP

[Glamdring]

finished it today (well actually, I need to turn them in, but waiting until I get to 90, 81 now, and I have my 15 snow geodes, too). Ghost was the only pain in the butt. Ule rules!

[Retsujo]

I have a few questions.. I'm only Lv32 PUP, but I yearn to level it up.

Burattinaios looks good for using melee frames (especially for skilling up), but would you use it over the Mythic weapon? IMO, the Mythic weapon seems to be the best weapon out there for PUPs. Am I wrong?

How important is it to have all the 'best' attachments for your automaton early on? There are several that are 1-2mil on my server, and while I'd like to farm for them, I'd like to know the imperative "MUST HAVE" attachments so I know what to shoot for. As of right now I only need 14 more attachments to have them all.

The Animator +1 has been confirmed to give some extra stats to both you and the Automaton. Has anyone figured out how 'direct' our orders are towards the Automaton? Is there a better chance for one thing over another? How exactly does that work?

Would an Animator +1 be more beneficial than a Turbo Animator when skilling up? I guess this question has its answer depending on if the last one can get answered. hah.

[Vazerus]

Burattinaios looks good for using melee frames (especially for skilling up), but would you use it over the Mythic weapon? IMO, the Mythic weapon seems to be the best weapon out there for PUPs. Am I wrong?
Hardly matters unless you have the means to finish a Mythic weapon for it, but I would use the mythic if I had it. It offers reduced delay and higher base damage for the master, and for both master and automaton there is the Aftermath. Given a choice I would use Verethragna, however.


How important is it to have all the 'best' attachments for your automaton early on? There are several that are 1-2mil on my server, and while I'd like to farm for them, I'd like to know the imperative "MUST HAVE" attachments so I know what to shoot for. As of right now I only need 14 more attachments to have them all.
It used to be more important while you actually had to level (before abyssea), but I'm gonna have to say ALL attachments except the Tactical Processor (no one really knows what it does) are important.

Here's a short list of what I think you really need to have: Optic Fiber, Turbo Charger, Ice Maker, Tranquilizer (outside Abyssea it may be useful again). Obviously shouldn't stop with just those, but they are essential to perform at your best.


The Animator +1 has been confirmed to give some extra stats to both you and the Automaton. Has anyone figured out how 'direct' our orders are towards the Automaton? Is there a better chance for one thing over another? How exactly does that work?
Not sure how to answer this, except that the hidden effects are pretty much all it does for you (DEX +4, Automaton HP 40-60 based on frame equipped, Automaton MP 0-60 based on frame equipped).


Would an Animator +1 be more beneficial than a Turbo Animator when skilling up? I guess this question has its answer depending on if the last one can get answered. hah.
No, not at all. If you mean H2H, then maybe if you need acc (dex -> acc). Otherwise it behaves exactly the same.

[Retsujo]

Sorry, I guess I wasn't specific enough ^^;

All my questions are based on content outside of Abyssea, since really nothing matters with the right atmas.

I say the Mythic weapon, not for the damage, but for the benefits of suppressing Overload to the Automaton. Is personal damage more important than Automaton capability?

Thanks for the suggestion on attachements ^^

I don't quite understand why the description for Animator +1 would say "Allows orders to be more directly relayed to the Automaton" just for some extra DEX to yourself and HP/MP to the automaton. That's what confuses me. I mean I understand the PUP player base isn't on the high side, but has no one ever pondered what that could mean, or tested/proved/disproved anything?

My question for skilling up was for the Automaton, not my own Combat skills. Basing the descriptions of Turbo Animator (Transmits commands at a faster rate) and Animator +1 (Allows orders to be more directly relayed), I was wondering if some truth behind them meant either faster spells/weapon skills, or more efficient spells/weapon skills for a more frequent ratio of skill level proc depending on the Animator equipped.

[Lushipur]

Sorry, I guess I wasn't specific enough ^^;

All my questions are based on content outside of Abyssea, since really nothing matters with the right atmas.

I say the Mythic weapon, not for the damage, but for the benefits of suppressing Overload to the Automaton. Is personal damage more important than Automaton capability?

Thanks for the suggestion on attachements ^^

I don't quite understand why the description for Animator +1 would say "Allows orders to be more directly relayed to the Automaton" just for some extra DEX to yourself and HP/MP to the automaton. That's what confuses me. I mean I understand the PUP player base isn't on the high side, but has no one ever pondered what that could mean, or tested/proved/disproved anything?

My question for skilling up was for the Automaton, not my own Combat skills. Basing the descriptions of Turbo Animator (Transmits commands at a faster rate) and Animator +1 (Allows orders to be more directly relayed), I was wondering if some truth behind them meant either faster spells/weapon skills, or more efficient spells/weapon skills for a more frequent ratio of skill level proc depending on the Animator equipped.

af3+2 body are all you need to nearly suppress overload...mythic is really hard to do more nowadays than before...until SE does somethings to fix some of the old content like salvage/nyzul/ein

somebody in this forum said that animator+1 have some more hidden effect but never said what...so i must assume that were all bs...i have animator+1 since day one and never had any improvement over turbo animator...just the dex+ and hp/mp bonus

[Kayn]

af3+2 body are all you need to nearly suppress overload...mythic is really hard to do more nowadays than before...until SE does somethings to fix some of the old content like salvage/nyzul/ein

somebody in this forum said that animator+1 have some more hidden effect but never said what...so i must assume that were all bs...i have animator+1 since day one and never had any improvement over turbo animator...just the dex+ and hp/mp bonus

Lushipur is correct, there's no difference with the animators besides the already stated ones.