FFXI is the most atmospheric, well-written, and unique computer-game of all time.

[Stompa]

So, yesterday I was reading the latest Square Enix economic declaration, about how they lost another couple hundred million in their latest experiments in game development.

This obviously saddens me, because back in the 90s, I handled my FF7 and FF8 Playstation discs like they were priceless holy relics. To me, Squaresoft was a divine superpower, granting gifts to the poor unfortunate mortals down here in meat-world.

When FFXI arrived in Europe in 2004, it totally swallowed me whole, I couldn't believe that such a beautiful and exciting computer-game could ever exist.

I marvelled at the combat-engine, game mechanics, menu system and macros. I rejoiced at the courteous behaviour of most players, </bow>ing courteously, and saying <Congratulations!> every time somebody dinged a level-up.

To me, FFXI was exactly the life I had always dreamed of online. Exciting, friendly, beautiful, and deeply, profoundly Role-Playing oriented.

And the text-writing. NPCs said things like "I'm saving up for a new parrot" in pirate-town Norg. Campaign NPC heroes said things like "behold the true embodiment of my sorrow" during pitched battles in war-ravaged hill-top stone forts.

The level of penmanship and wordsmithing involved in all of the quests, even the small humdrum throway lines, were so eloquent and beautifully written, that even William Shakespeare would have put down his quill in defeat, to go and raise goats somewhere instead, knowing that he could never write as beautifully as the FFXI mission/quest text writers were writing.

Dozens of vastly unique and fascinating jobs to play, millions of equips and items, wondrous monsters that were more Manga than any Manga I've ever seen. I still rate Moblins and WOTG-era Goblins as the coolest-looking animated creatures in all of computer-game and Anime history.

A living world, with days, nights, seasons, festivals. A cybernetic ecology of souls. Despite the toy-soldier / dolls graphical simplicity, the NPCs felt real, because they were alive in a world that was so intricately detailed.

And people played FFXI for 20+ years, and still love playing it after all these years. People still pay subs, willingly, and many cases, grateful for the continued opportunity to log-in at all.

FFXI was never "working the format" or "template concept." FFXI was truly unique. Even though it had AD&D elements, etc. FFXI was unlike any other game in history. There was no riding-on-coattails, no looting earlier franchises, no cheap-shot gimmicks. It was ground-breaking, exploring uncharted possibilities, a true masterpiece of imaginitive creation.

I've said before, that FFXI is the greatest computer-game ever made, in all of human history.

And it was a huge success. It still is. Somebody should tell SE this <fact>, because they seem to be struggling to create something successful and popular these days.

:cool:

[Immortal]

FFXI deserves so much better... I hate how they have removed almost all funding for the game even tho it has been a stable source of income from them for over two decades. It deserves more and it would help them retain that revenue even longer instead of investing it into complete failures like Forspoken and such. FFXI is the best game ever made by them, and it is very unique and special to me. I think its quite an achievement to have a game still going after over two decades. While there are others also out there as long, this game has broken many records and achieved a lot of firsts. I wish we could continue it strong, but what can we do.

[Alhanelem]

while my feelings aren't quite as... superlative... as yours, I'd still agree FFXI was really something special and it does deserve better.

[Haldarn]

Despite the toy-soldier / dolls graphical simplicity, the NPCs felt real, because they were alive in a world that was so intricately detailed.

This is a key point that is oft-missed. The models standing there in a space in-game (and most of the game environs) are like words on a page - it's my brain that interprets them and creates the living world of Vana'diel based on the information provided to it. In one way, more modern graphics and animations make that easier, but in another it's unnecessary; build the dialogue, people and events, paint the pictures of the environments, flora and fauna, embody richness and attention to detail (not to mention a game system that keeps the other side of your brain busy) - that is the way developers should focus their time; not designing intricate details in corridors that 99% of players will run past without really looking at in a game area that's only briefly passed through once in a 100-hr playthrough.

[Dihlyte]

I agree 100%.

The thing I do not understand, is why SE never learns.

Final Fantasy the Spirits Within:
-Was all about graphics.
-Had nothing to do with Final Fantasy.
-No summons
-No Final Fantasy jobs
-No airships, nothing, and it was a massive failure.

FFXIII:
Was all about graphics.
-No towns
-no mini-games
-no job system
-limited secrets, etc, and it struggled.

FFXIV:
(The Original 1.0 before Yoshida)
-Was all about graphics
-didn’t run
-no FF jobs.

And it failed miserably.


Then the “Fixed” FFXIV 1.23b they did everything right.
-They focused on performance
-added FF jobs
-added chocobos
-added FF elements in the form of materia.

…Then immediately shut it down after they fixed it.

Then came FFXIV:ARR.
This still had all the traditional FF tropes, and rode the wave of success of 1.23b and the ground breaking determination to bring success from a failure.
-They kept the FF jobs focus,
-they added mini-games
-added content,
-and many other features.

Then came “Endwalker” 6.0 and soon “Dawntrail” 7.0 and they went backwards.

They started adding gundam jobs, and adding weird modern outfits, Fortnite dances, simplified the jobs beyond comprehension, ignored feedback for years.

Now with FFXIV 7.0 they have come full circle.

It’s a full focus on graphics, and gameplay has all but gone out the window.
Naoki Yoshida even says “if you want a challenge as healer, go play healer in ultimate” and yet the “hardest” Ultimate is cleanable without a healer at all!

That shouldn’t even be possible. Yet here we are.

I do not understand what is going on in SE.

They keep doing the same things, and it keeps hurting their finances, and reputation.

[kylani]

Well said and I couldn’t agree more. I’ve played many games over the past 20+ years and always come back to ffxi. FFXI is unique and special.

[Alhanelem]

It’s a full focus on graphics, and gameplay has all but gone out the window. Uhmm.... its not out yet. And the plans for DT absolutely include catering more to their core base after they admitted that bending over for new players for so long was a mistake. It's not a "full focus on graphics," the graphics overhaul doesn't even require the expansion (and it is something that players have been asking for, as the current gear textures are pretty low resolution by today's standards). It's also something they should have done for FFXI over a decade ago. Heck, even the current engine for the game supports and is capable of better, as is clearly evidenced by all the third party visual enhancements that are out there.

I know practically everyone here loves to hate FFXIV, but talking about something that isn't even out yet while not basing your thoughts on known facts is not reasonable.



Then the “Fixed” FFXIV 1.23b they did everything right.
-They focused on performance
-added FF jobs
-added chocobos
-added FF elements in the form of materia. While the 1.2x updates did improve 1.0 FFXIV quite a lot, it was still 1.0 with some nice stuff added.
-still massive empty copypasta zones
-still light on content
-still the incredibly dumb market ward system (although updates made it more bearable to use)
-still hard to access the content that did exist

They didn't really "fix" 1.0, just made it more enjoyable in the interim while they worked on the real project. It was always going to be shut down for ARR, it's not like everyone fell in love with it (sure, a few people did), they were still waiting for ARR. Frankly for me the most fun moment in 1.2x was when the server shutdown was imminent and they started spawning overpowered enemies in the cities and all over the palce, and there were some hilariously funny server messages that were broadcast in the moments before.


The dead set stance against making healer jobs more engaging I will however agree is really dumb.

Anyway.... My suggestion is if we want to lavish FFXI with praise, let's focus on that instead of bashing SE and everything else they've made/done.

[Dihlyte]

Reply.

I am not here to argue.

Additionally, you focused your entire rely on FFXIV, when mine was focused on multiple failed products.

Lastly, I don’t play the “it isn’t out yet” game.

I did not even buy 6.0, and I refuse to buy any new SE products until I see massive changes.

It’s called putting my money where my mouth is.

[Stompa]

This is a key point that is oft-missed. The models standing there in a space in-game (and most of the game environs) are like words on a page - it's my brain that interprets them and creates the living world of Vana'diel based on the information provided to it. In one way, more modern graphics and animations make that easier, but in another it's unnecessary; build the dialogue, people and events, paint the pictures of the environments, flora and fauna, embody richness and attention to detail (not to mention a game system that keeps the other side of your brain busy) - that is the way developers should focus their time; not designing intricate details in corridors that 99% of players will run past without really looking at in a game area that's only briefly passed through once in a 100-hr playthrough.

From a purely Player-side perspective, I'm running FFXI on a 10 ten year-old PC which was cheap and low-end when I bought it. FFXI runs smoothly on this old cheap PC. Not all players can afford high-end machines. My PC won't run any modern shiny-graphics games.

I could buy a good new PC, and play the new games, but I've seen a lot of footage of the new games on YT, and the games just don't appeal to me.

Planetary Scientists often refer to the "Goldilocks Zone" or the "Sweet Spot" to describe planets that are not too hot, not too cold, but just right.

To me, FFXI hits the Goldilocks Zone, the Sweet Spot. It is not Too Cold, with 1980s blocky 2D graphics, and it is not Too Hot, with ultra-realistic fancy new graphics.

I love FFXI partly because it is realistic enough to give us the clear impression of what the NPCs and Monsters look like, while also remaining doll-like and simple enough for my imagination to run riot and build my own impressions, adding my own details from my own memory.

Also, as mentioned before, not everyone has a high-end PC, and FFXI offers nice graphics that run smoothly, even on low-end machines. To me, this is the Goldilocks Zone, offering both nice basic graphics, while at the same time good kinetics, good movement, outstanding playability.

Doll-like simplicity is frowned-upon in the West, but in Asia where I live, dolls are considered sacred, precisely because they are simple. In the movie "GITS2 Innocence", the hacker-guy says that [paraphrased] "only God and dolls can achieve perfection." The point is that humans are too complicated, too detailed, too mired in the reality of life, to ever be perfect. But dolls are simple and graceful, thus perfect.

So, from an esoteric perspective, FFXI is actually perfect, in terms of doll-like / toy-soldier simplicity.

[Alhanelem]

Additionally, you focused your entire rely on FFXIV, when mine was focused on multiple failed products.You implied that FFXIV is a failing product, and it really isn't. That's the issue. Also, if you're "not here to argue," then you're not in the right place. By posting opinions on a forum, you open them up to be disputed (or agreed upon) by others. Your comments demonstrated a clear bias I felt obligated to dispute due to inaccuracies.


Lastly, I don’t play the “it isn’t out yet” game.

I did not even buy 6.0, and I refuse to buy any new SE products until I see massive changes.I'm not telling you to buy it, but you're unfairly judging something you know little about.

"it's not out yet" is not a game and I'm not telling you to play it. In fact, I'm telling you to wait for it to come out before judging it. Which is mostly what you're already doing, except for the "judging" part. You're almost acting like you want it to fail. Before saying "they're not listening / its gonna fail, why don't we wait and see what actually happens?

I haven't actually bought it yet either. But there's plain and obviously more to the new expansion that just updating the graphics. Whether what they're doing is enough or not, I can't say yet. But statements like yours oversimplifying irritate me. But ultiamtely we never needed to talk about FFXIV or any other game in a thread that was about honoring FFXI.


So, from an esoteric perspective, FFXI is actually perfect, in terms of doll-like / toy-soldier simplicity. FFXI is amazing and wonderful, but it isn't perfect. I'm not talking about anything specific but there's always a way to make something even better.

Also since you discussed the graphics, it's worth mentioning that FFXI doesn't render them anywhere nearly as optimally as it could because it doesn't make use of your hardware. That doesn't mean we need powerful hardware, but a better system should be able to run it better it mostly doesn't. Which is why I and probably many of us have been wishing for a remaster, that doesn't change the game itself but makes everything run and look great no matter what kind of PC you have. After all, it was built to run on a PC of 20 years ago. We can take advantage of what's available today without stopping anyone from making it work on vintage hardware.

Frankly they could start by just raising the FPS cap to 60, which the game is fully capable of doing and all the animations play properly up to 60 FPS. Go higher than that and things break, but that would be a wonderful improvement they could make that requires almost no work at all from an implementation standpoint.


I could buy a good new PC, and play the new games, but I've seen a lot of footage of the new games on YT, and the games just don't appeal to me.when we're talking "the new games" here, it sounds like you mean all video games. thousands of games have come out in the last 10 years. You can't possibly tell me there isn't even one that appeals to you?

I definitely don't buy games like I used to, but there are still some here and there that interest me and have me keeping up with the times.

But maybe you mean Final Fantasy games in particular, in which case I certainly feel you- I've honestly only played a few (mostly the spinoff FFCC series and the FFTA games) and I have little desire to play any of them besides XI and XIV. the latest one is basically just a third person action game now. it seems like a spinoff but it's positioned as a mainline game.

[Dihlyte]

Also, if you're "not here to argue," then you're not in the right place. By posting opinions on a forum, you open them up to be disputed (or agreed upon) by others. Your comments demonstrated a clear bias I felt obligated to dispute due to inaccuracies.
.

I left feedback regarding FFXI (by agreeing with the original post) and further outlined why I think certain products did in fact fail, and why I am not pleased with new products being released by SE.

You are welcome to disagree all you like, but I'm not here to debate you.

I believe, and know the forums are used for leaving feedback and I would like to continue to focus on that, instead of responding to your replies that do not include feedback regarding any SE product.

I am sorry.

To try to bring the focus back to feedback I will add why I personally did not try FFXI sooner, a reason why SE might have not have seen greater success with FFXI earlier on.

I cannot speak for others, but in my example, and I am most certain that I am likely not the only person in this situation, I was simply too young to start playing FFXI at its release.

When FFXI released be that in 2002, or 2003, in the USA, I was simply too young.

When I turned 16 I was required to start buying my own needed products such as shampoo and other household needs, so having a parent pay for XI was not an option.

When I did join, it was well after release, and after FFXIV 1.0 had already released, but I chose to start with FFXI regardless.

The next issue, I faced with XI, was all the players had already had long moved on to level 99 content, and I was level 1 so leveling was very difficult, let alone completing missions solo. (Pre-trusts and pre-RoV.)

Ever since FFXI addressed those last two issues, I have been enjoying FFXI.

Which is quite wonderful considering I do not enjoy any new products from SE or many other developers for that matter.

For this fact, to be capable of still playing and enjoying XI, I am grateful.

[Dihlyte]

The next issue, I faced with XI, was all the players had already had long moved on to level 99 content, and I was level 1 so leveling was very difficult, let alone completing missions solo. (Pre-trusts and pre-RoV.)
l.

I would also like to touch on this further.

I believe FFXI went too far into "the right field" on this aspect of the game.

Clearly making leveling and main scenario missions so difficult that they cannot be completed solo, creates a nearly impossible situation for players joining the game years down the road.

My personal opinion, with FFXIV for example, went far too far into "the left field" by making the leveling and "MSQ" experience mind-numbingly easy.

I personally believe its extremely easy to strike that perfect balance.

Creating an experience where at release the players are well distributed, the enemies are challenging while in a party, and people who want to play solo still can, and both ways feeling "efficient" to the player/s.

I enjoy imagining a world where FFXIV retained its 25+ million players, and where FFXI is thriving with tens of millions of players as well, but I know what Final Fantasy players imagine, and what SE ends up doing is rarely the same. (My opinion of course.)

[Alhanelem]

For this fact, to be capable of still playing and enjoying XI, I am grateful. Well, I certainly do share this sentiment.

[Stompa]

FFXI deserves so much better... I hate how they have removed almost all funding for the game even tho it has been a stable source of income from them for over two decades. It deserves more and it would help them retain that revenue even longer instead of investing it into complete failures like Forspoken and such. FFXI is the best game ever made by them, and it is very unique and special to me. I think its quite an achievement to have a game still going after over two decades. While there are others also out there as long, this game has broken many records and achieved a lot of firsts. I wish we could continue it strong, but what can we do.

Forspoken is clumsy and oafish. Foamstars is garish and insulting.

Octopath is well-intentioned and well-executed but it is still a step backwards. Jrpgs were a 'thing of their time' and I really enjoyed Jrpgs before FFXI arrived.

The core problem with Jrpgs is the same problem we saw with FF titles (excluding FFXI), which is that they are too Linear.

Simply put, RPG games by their very nature, can never be Linear. The whole point of RPG games is choices. A real RPG should always start with Character Creation, and at no point during the game, should the game force you to play another character just for plot reasons.

Back in the early years of computer-games, we accepted that the technology limited us to playing a little stick-figure. I myself coded a ZX80 game in 1981, forty-three years ago, which was literally a stick figure. And later in Jrpgs we accepted that tech limitations meant that we had to play the pre-created heroes. But with the digital age, there was enough dataspace to accomodate actual Player Characters, designed by the player. That was FFXI, it was the first FF title to be a true RPG, as you could grow attached to, and fond of, your character. Your character felt comfortable and familiar to you. By contrast, FF titles that are completely Linear, and force you to play pre-made characters, and even swap characters just for plot reasons, were the opposite of RPG.

In actual physical Gaming style, there is a huge difference. A character you are comfortable with, and identify with, a personal character you created, is faster to play. There is less delay. I am a woman, so when I see the screen with a male character for me to control, there is the tiniest delay while my brain jumps the cognitive hurdle of "that can't be me" and realises "that is who I am playing."

I am quite a small lady, and so my Tarutaru girl feels the most automatic and responsive. My reflex-time, hand-eye co-ordination, is much faster on a Taru girl, than it is on a Galka male. Simply because it takes my brain a micro-second longer to realise that the character is supposed to be me.

But FF titles that are Linear also suffer from lack of freedom, you can't just say I'm going fishing for a year, maybe go punch some goblins, help a friend with AF quests, etc. With Linear games, such as most FF and Jrpg games, there is a Plan For You, and you literally can't change the plan in any way. Again, this is the opposite of RPG in the true Role-Playing sense, because Role-Playing is all about freedom and imagination.

So, after FFXI, there were several Linear FF games, and that is a step backwards. And for SE to go from FFXI to Foamstars in two decades, is proper astonishing backwardsness. If they go backwards any further, we'll have to use flint and rocks to start fires in our caves again.

As for what you said,"what can we do" obviously nothing, except politely point out to SE that the reason they lose hundreds of millions is because not all formulas are winning formulas, and that FFXI was and still is a winning formula.

[Alhanelem]

Foamstars is garish and insulting.
I'll give you garish but... insulting? lol

You know, you don't have to like every game a company makes, most people don't. But about the only context in which i could consider using that word is maybe it's insulting to my intelligence if they try to argue it's not a ripoff of Splatoon.

[RichLester]

FFXI certainly stood up to the test of time & has outlasted many online games but I do fear for Final Fantasy's direction as a whole. I don't know what SE will do after the FFVII Remake trilogy is over & done with. Not sure what FFXVII will end up looking like. Overall, they have done a very good job on this game over the past 22 years. It just needs a bit of polishing up in places to keep it going for another 5 years, at least. The community in-game is what make this special, comparing to others.

[Alhanelem]

I certainly hope that happens.

[Stompa]

I am just going to mention, that Online Bullying is now, thankfully, finally recognised as a crime in many nations, and is also considered morally repugnant by most Internet users.

As this thread was originally intended to be a polite reminder to SE that they lose hundreds of millions because they lost sight of what Gamers liked playing, I will also add that SE lost sight of policing RMT and botting and indeed Online Bullying on their OF.

SE did actually listen when I suggested adding a Cardian Trust, and they added one like six months later. That was nice, it felt nice that SE were listening.

However, I don't expect SE to listen to my advice on FFXI being a sure-fire hit success going forward, nor do I expect SE to recognise that Online Bullying is a super badbad thing.

Back in the 1970s, nineteen-seventies, I was a little girl in Primary School, and as I was born with severe Spastic Cerebral Palsy, I was violently Bullied by a Mean Boy, who called me insulting names relating to my Spastic Cerebral Palsy. When I made daisy-chains in the playground, he would take the pretty and beautiful thing I had made, and he would tear it to pieces, and stomp on it, and laugh victoriously.

One time, the Bully slapped my spectacles / glasses off my face, and stomped them into pieces. As I was born 92% ninety-two percent blind, this meant that I had to spend the next 2 two months bumping into walls and falling over things. My Mother was a Single-Parent, and I have never met my Father, because he ran away abroad when my Mother was pregnant. So my Mother worked a Factory Job, and it took her 2 two months to save up for my new Spectacles / Glasses. During that time, I couldn't read, and I was getting bruised from bumping into walls etc.

So, I have always disliked Bullying, and I applaud other Forums where the owners are very strict about policing Bullying, and punishing users who are mean and aggressive to others.

Now I am in my 50s fifties, and still live with Spastic Cerebral Palsy, and almost total blindness, and I am happy because in my life-time I have seen society change from totally ignoring Bullying in the 1970s, to now society is taking Bullying much more seriously. I hope that in the future, every corner of society will recognise Bullying as a seriously traumatising crime, and kids will learn at an early age, that picking on vulnerable people is not acceptable.

[Alhanelem]

I share your sentiment, but I'm admittedly not sure what that has to do with the thread.

I actually had someone from FFXI who saw me in an Overwatch match and they asked, "Are you (me)?" and I said yeah, that's me, and then they started throwing the game and spewing obscenitiies. I'm not sure what I did in-game to deserve that, but I ended up having to change my battletag to stop it after they kept doing it game after game (open queue you often see the same people more than once). So I can definitely relate to your situation. I've considered changing my name back but now I'm afraid something stupid like that is going to happen again. So my battle.net name is completely different from everything else I play.

[Stompa]

"The Head Of State,
Has called for me, by name,
But I don't have time for him.
It's gonna be a glorious day."

[RADIOHEAD - "LUCKY."]

:)

[Jordache]

. . . because they seem to be struggling to create something successful and popular these days. :cool:

PS2 limitations *ARE* the industrial standards of FFXI; too many firms forget this (or don't know it) and lose everything when they get lost in the digital age.

The digital age needs to be grounded in hardware because hardware manufacture (i.e., physical products) forces the company to value money physically. This is a HUGE mindset point to consider in terms of how a product is *going* to be developed, so much so that the situation is actually "make and break" without a physical product in mind at the beginning of a new studio's founding. The massive layoff and game industry quality drop since 2013 are exactly the result of this: a technological capability to have microtransactions, patches, DLC, and everything else without actually being tied to a physical edition of a game, meaning: the perfectionism of the studios that developed since 2012-13 have never existed; the quality constraint demanded of a perfected and finished product were removed with a larger internet user base, FFXIV was the example of that both bad, better, and best.

Today: the wider games industry has just finished the bad of FFXIV's lessons in leadership, and are entering the better phase; they've failed too much for too long to do it any other way, and now they have financial-, and every other type of- proof. They're creating FFXIV: Realm Reborn now.

There are too many instances of post-purchase modifications ruining and upsetting everyone on the PlayStation digital market place, myself included. Say, "NO" to post-purchase modifications of digital software, buy a physical copy. The game industry has lost tens of thousands of jobs because the firms developing are developing for a digital marketplace product, harshly said: these products are of poor quality. And then: after you buy the digital version of the game, they [the publishers] modify it to a point wherein it is no longer the item purchased. An MMO is different, and everyone wants a game like FFXI, but they're not building one. The post-purchase modifications are actually illegal under the national commodity and anti-trust laws perspectives, not the T.O.S.. The situation is like buying a cheeseburger or carrot, then having someone remove the cheese after you paid money for the cheeseburger (item): the product is not in the state of purchase, nor is it expected to be altered like with an MMO. You know post-purchase modifications are illegal because if I modified the game files and tried to return the game it would not be acceptable to issue a refund because: the game is not in the same state (condition) as it was sold in, it is not re-sellable.

Anyway:

What my time in medical devices (real life job) and gaming have taught me is that all of the software in the world becomes extremely convenient to patch in real time, so there is actually an incentive to be lazy and defer diligence to quality without a physical product being manufactured.

It is the challenge of manufacturing *for* a physical product like the CD jewel cases of FFVIII that forces a company to think correctly in terms of how their money and time are spent, and most importantly: not wasted. Square-Enix is a company that has a very strong base for physical product development and manufacture, FFXI exists with at least four (4) pieces of physical hardware: a PS2; a PS2 HDD; the game CDs and cases proper; and the SE login token. Then you have to figure in international shipping for a worldwide simultaneous release date. And then: you have to do it circa 2002-3.

You don't make mistakes, you make money; that's what Square-Enix taught me. I modeled my medical devices company after the lessons I learned from participating with Square-Enix and FFXI over the past 20 years.

And that's how I know that the other people are: doing it wrong. '-')-b

[Jordache]

. . . I do not understand what is going on in SE.

They keep doing the same things, and it keeps hurting their finances, and reputation.

This is a very: Japanese pachinko parlor operator mentality of: if it's not broke don't fix it. Nothing will change until the stockholder / investment level is affected, which is how and why revenue and sales are uncoupled from a normalized business model: they actually do not make sense any longer. You're in space-level technology corporations now; they're international (dare I say be interplanetary) and the question you should be asking yourself is the difference in price between a FFXI-Gil and a FFXIV-Gil on the NYSE.

[Jordache]

and simple enough for my imagination to run riot and build my own impressions, adding my own details from my own memory.

*This* ungodly and undoubtedly *this*.

The totality of game development ethos isn't about graphics, it's about everything else besides graphics: how all of the other game's systems have to compensate for the graphics which make it ~better~ overall. It's the love that goes missing because everyone is pushing for graphics like mindless zombie robots instead of artstyle, music, mechanics, AND imagination. You absolutely killed it with: the imagination call there.

I. Can't. Use. MY. Imagination. with perfect graphics.

I can't get that same personal feeling of success from games like FFXVI because they're a moss and rock photography simulator (a good one mind you), but they are mentally exhausting, and not enjoyable. And don't get me started about that Final Fantasy mode they pulled: 120 hours later I have to replay your stupid game just to be able to play the game that I wanted to play.

And why can't I use my own name in SE games anymore? That's where half the fun comes from! I don't like being Clive or Noctus, I want the opportunity to be MYSELF. If i'm good enough for the real world then I'm good enough for your fantasy. ;) AHAHHA

[Jordache]

. . . and I was level 1 so leveling was very difficult, let alone completing missions solo. (Pre-trusts and pre-RoV.)

That's ok, that's how everyone else did it from 2003-2013: very difficult. You'd be surprised how well adapted you are.

[Jordache]

I would also like to touch on this further.

I believe FFXI went too far into "the right field" on this aspect of the game.

Clearly making leveling and main scenario missions so difficult that they cannot be completed solo, creates a nearly impossible situation for players joining the game years down the road.

My personal opinion, with FFXIV for example, went far too far into "the left field" by making the leveling and "MSQ" experience mind-numbingly easy.

I personally believe its extremely easy to strike that perfect balance.

Creating an experience where at release the players are well distributed, the enemies are challenging while in a party, and people who want to play solo still can, and both ways feeling "efficient" to the player/s.

I enjoy imagining a world where FFXIV retained its 25+ million players, and where FFXI is thriving with tens of millions of players as well, but I know what Final Fantasy players imagine, and what SE ends up doing is rarely the same. (My opinion of course.)

You never shouted for help once did you[?], lol ahahahaha.

[Jordache]

I am quite a small lady, and so my Tarutaru girl feels the most automatic and responsive. My reflex-time, hand-eye co-ordination, is much faster on a Taru girl, than it is on a Galka male. Simply because it takes my brain a micro-second longer to realise that the character is supposed to be me.

I highly suggest making a character with your own real life name, I think you would really enjoy it. A lot of people at release could not do this because of a popular name being taken like Michael, or Sephiroth. I've been using my name for my whole life. :D

[Alhanelem]

I highly suggest making a character with your own real life name, I think you would really enjoy it. A lot of people at release could not do this because of a popular name being taken like Michael, or Sephiroth. I've been using my name for my whole life. :D
Most people don't use their real names on the internet wherever they don't have to because anonymity. The internet is like Vegas and nobody wants to take it back into the real world.

[Stompa]

*This* ungodly and undoubtedly *this*.

The totality of game development ethos isn't about graphics, it's about everything else besides graphics: how all of the other game's systems have to compensate for the graphics which make it ~better~ overall. It's the love that goes missing because everyone is pushing for graphics like mindless zombie robots instead of artstyle, music, mechanics, AND imagination. You absolutely killed it with: the imagination call there.

I. Can't. Use. MY. Imagination. with perfect graphics.

I can't get that same personal feeling of success from games like FFXVI because they're a moss and rock photography simulator (a good one mind you), but they are mentally exhausting, and not enjoyable. And don't get me started about that Final Fantasy mode they pulled: 120 hours later I have to replay your stupid game just to be able to play the game that I wanted to play.

And why can't I use my own name in SE games anymore? That's where half the fun comes from! I don't like being Clive or Noctus, I want the opportunity to be MYSELF. If i'm good enough for the real world then I'm good enough for your fantasy. ;) AHAHHA

Thank you for your replies, I greatly enjoyed reading them.

Most modern games remind me of Stage Magicians. They use misdirection and Special Effects to dazzle the Audience. Meanwhile, there is no actual Magic, just a dramatic visual spectacle or drama.

So many modern games are like Hollywood movies too. You are going to a Movie Theater, you are an Audience. You are not a Participant.

Where this really shows clearly, is *The Lack Of Game-Skills Required* to play a modern game. When the game is just PEWPEWPEW, sure there's some thumb-strength required, but there isn't a lot of actual Game Skills / Reflexes / Rapid Plan-Changes / On-The-Spot strategy-shifts. It is just "look at how beautiful the graphics are, why would you need things like Unorthodox Party Builds, Kiting, Pinning, etc. Just mash the button and enjoy the Movie, like a good Audience Member.

I am not an Audience Member. I am a Gamer. I actually want to Participate, not just Watch.

Here's the thing. Young children, Primary-School age, even Toddlers, their happiest moments are when they ACHIEVE SOMETHING USING THEIR SKILLS. Sure it is nice to be given fancy toys, but if you want to see a child GLOWING WITH JOY, you let them use their Skills and Imagination to create something or achieve something. They will feel elated for days, after using their Skills to achieve something.

In FFXI, my happiest memories were NOT the times when I got Shiny Loot.

In FFXI, my happiest memories were when me and my friends played on our A-GAME as a team, seamlessly playing our Main Jobs to such high standards, we were so HIGH on the thrill of really shining and using our Game Skills at the total limit of possibility. When the NM dropped nothing just zero loot, we laughed, because we had just seen something Magical, true Alchemy, turning base materials called humans and keyboards, into GOLD, called astonishing Player Game-Skills and Teamwork.

I will take FFXI over any other game, because FFXI gives me so many opportunities to shine as a skilled Gamer. No amount of fancy shiny modern ultra-realistic graphics can ever compare to the rush of playing on my A-GAME.

:)

[Jordache]

Most people don't use their real names on the internet wherever they don't have to because anonymity. The internet is like Vegas and nobody wants to take it back into the real world.

I know, that's why it works so well for me.

[Dihlyte]

You never shouted for help once did you[?], lol ahahahaha.

I’m not sure why you find this funny, but I spent a very large portion of my time online either struggling or begging for assistance, which was not exactly enjoyable.

I was in a LS, and repeatedly asked for help getting through certain areas, that I kept dying in, or for missions I couldn’t solo.

With extremely limited assistance, I eventually made it to level 99. I simply do not recall how far I originally got in missions, but I do not believe it was very far.

As far as specifically /shouting, or /yelling, I do not know how much I did this. Significantly less frequently than I asked my LS.

The only times I asked my LS, was when I tried something numerous times, and failed while solo.

I received help with someone killing a NM that was blocking a path, I got help with my first journey to Jeuno…. I cannot right now recall any other assistance.

Most of my leveling parties consisted of Gusgen Mines. A whole lot of Gusgen mines. On a good day, I found people leveling in Crawlers Nest or Bostaunieux Oubliette.

I had to effectively out level Bostaunieux Oubiette, and just stay there killing one Leech at a time with the book bonus, all the way to 99. Solo.

Again, not exactly thrilling.

The experience now, and freedom with trusts is substantially much more exciting and enjoyable.

(I did not have Abyssea. So this wasn’t an option.)

[radar]

Platform limitations are often a good thing, they force developers to make better games to overcome the graphical limitations.

There is a reason the Switch is the weakest and most popular console.

[Jordache]

your whole post

I know what you're getting at here and the sentiment and situation is closer to elderly gamers; because, Frankly: the people who basically invented console gaming proper (1990s-1980s) are like, now in their 65-70s(?). I know they got some fight still left in them but these games are really actually really cognitively intense for them. It's a different world when you're older, it just is. So I understand why and how there are different difficulty and accessibility levels within a game, but at the same time: you're going to end up with a generation full of mush-brained idiots who can't do a business transaction to save their own lives without that skillchain > MB knowledge, and the people are hungry for intelligence.

Where's the Final Fantasy that makes use of all of those new (circa 2000) protein and enzyme structures? There's 25 years of biological and chemical 3D asset classes that built up from 3D academic graphics and journals. That's 25 years of unexploited new asset *classes*.

I haven't seen a single game actually trying to display and or make use of those types of naturalized art styles and concepts! For shame! Tons of work in the biological sciences, porphyrins, receptor ligands, protein folding and chaperons, put THAT in the game in the artistic aesthetic sense, build the engine off what was just done for COVID. The purchasers know you can do FF8, give the scrutineers a taste of the actual power that 25 years of biological and chemical computational physics have created! It's about art style and communicating that SE can actually drop those educational price points down to something comprehensible by their own children.

No one has done anything with the DNA libraries; genetics information; and protein structures in gaming, EVER. You're missing out on really smart and well paid people.

And as a game design company: you're not constrained to function like, the scientists are; and they'd help you out too they live this kind've stuff; they're a different kind've production unit, but the databases should be literate to SE and the university PHDs equally.

Bring on creative business unit VIII!

I don't know what happened to creative business units 4 through 6.

[Jordache]

your whole post

I find it funny because you're so blatantly bad that you failed to solicit help from literally the most helpful of community games, that I highly suspect you of lying or of ulterior motives.

A forewarning: You're not getting sympathy for your failures from me; don't read on, just don't, lol.

Well your sad experiences are sad, and rather quite mystifying to me because the situation seems like a pandering lie to be honest, a cry of boo-hoo-hoo: poor me that is all to common nowadays absolutely everywhere in California.

Like: everything circa 2010 was functional exp-wise, and your lack of adventuring fellow npc mentions, even pre-trust and or WOTG, is something unlikable and suspect. Like, I'm willing to bet the situation was actually you; which is hard for someone to actually confront in virtual and real life situations, you being at fault. You just sound like you want other people to play the game for you: which isn't that exciting and kind've lame.

Anyway, the past was the past and I'm happy that the trusts are working for you now, now: try getting other people to work for you: align your common interests and you'll have much more fun. /yell {auto-translate} {autotranslate} @2/6 {/tell} <me> works for everything and always has. >.>

[Alhanelem]

I know, that's why it works so well for me.Well this is aside from the fact that most of us have very common/boring names and we want something more interesting/exciting for our online identities.

[Jordache]

Well this is aside from the fact that most of us have very common/boring names and we want something more interesting/exciting for our online identities.

Well that was the thing at the time but it turned into a sizeable investment in another persona, that's kind've having its way across society now. My experience is more like: you learn to be happy and content with yourself and your own adventures instead of trying to be someone else, you'll find that you're plenty exciting when you get your macros set up like the trusts.

/p YoU CaN EvEn TaLk LiKe ThIs! ;)

I suggest writing your character's name on the next school exam so you see what that name actually learned. '-')-b

[Monsuta_Man]

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1240900/square-enix-annual-income/

Pretty obvious who costed SE....do with this info as you will lol.

Oddly, Avengers sold as much as XVI iirc......Hmmmm.......Avengers did eventually shut doors, but it was not the only huge SE game to do that. When you get behind the eight-ball, it will have a snowball/bottle neck effect. You gotta put out hits. This is when they should have focused on XI. However, they continued to do various costly projects after XIV........which already costed them......

Feel an XI expansion run can give ya what XVI did, but less pricey......Accounting physical sales of a new expansion, and those who may not own the base game, along with monthly subs of every player.

[Jordache]

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1240900/square-enix-annual-income/

. . .However, they continued to do various costly projects after XIV........which already costed them......

It looks like they're officially saying "we're back to normal"; however, your however rings more bells than whistles with regards to the big projects. Basically the way I understand SE is that they shotgun franchises out; then, grow the ones that have a sustaining ground/base. Kind've like an orchard, there's a cycle to it.

[Alhanelem]

@ "speak with your wallet doesn't work" : Believe what you want to believe, but the only way to convince a big corporation anything, aside from being a board member, is to hit them in the pocketbook. Declining sales makes investors run in the other direction and is really the only way ordinary people can effect change.

Obviously it takes way more than one or two people thinking the same thing. But if that sentiment is held by enough people it will compel action.



I. Can't. Use. MY. Imagination. with perfect graphics. Then go play some MUDs (Multi-User Dungeons), those are text based games. But I haven't yet played a game with "perfect graphics," so I'll let you know when that happens.

Graphics don't matter for imagination. Every game and in particular every story has blanks for you to fill in. When you're not talking to Gumbah you're wondering what he's doing. You come up with your own stories. You role play. This has nothing to do with graphics at all. Graphics only create a setting. You can do anything you want with that setting.

I thought the footmen in Warcraft II had cool armor. I roleplayed one of them in my head. It's because they looked cool that I got into it. If your imagination doesn't work when good visuals are present, you may need to revisit your approach to imagination. I became infaturated with the Yuke tribe in FFCC in no small part thanks to my namesake character whom I can thank for vocaublary I never really used before. Graphics are merely a starting point.

[Jordache]

@ "speak with your wallet doesn't work" : Believe what you want to believe, but the only way to convince a big corporation anything, aside from being a board member, is to hit them in the pocketbook. Declining sales makes investors run in the other direction and is really the only way ordinary people can effect change.

Obviously it takes way more than one or two people thinking the same thing. But if that sentiment is held by enough people it will compel action.

Then go play some MUDs (Multi-User Dungeons), those are text based games. But I haven't yet played a game with "perfect graphics," so I'll let you know when that happens.

Graphics don't matter for imagination. Every game and in particular every story has blanks for you to fill in. When you're not talking to Gumbah you're wondering what he's doing. You come up with your own stories. You role play. This has nothing to do with graphics at all. Graphics only create a setting. You can do anything you want with that setting.

I thought the footmen in Warcraft II had cool armor. I roleplayed one of them in my head. It's because they looked cool that I got into it. If your imagination doesn't work when good visuals are present, you may need to revisit your approach to imagination. I became infaturated with the Yuke tribe in FFCC in no small part thanks to my namesake character whom I can thank for vocaublary I never really used before. Graphics are merely a starting point.

yeah but that's the problem, you can't hit big corporations in the pocket book: they're sovereign states now: they have amassed a fortune so large it is entirely self-sustaining with-or-without your purchasing inputs. They're sustained and supported by something like a 401(K) or pension fund: there's SO much money in the fund the dividends of the fund itself are so large that they dwarf the actual retail incomes of the games they're producing.

They don't need customers, they need friends, adventuring buddies.

The whole revenue and sales publications are just to act as badges of honor-like: something to indicate success to achievement to other individuals in the industry and to self-reflect their own competitive or technological shortcomings and or development strategies. It's full on Empire of Aht Urghan.

It never compels an action, and enough people never think that way. What happens is everyone fractionates because of real-life forces and then the ones who know better rebuild the system with them in charge, then the cycle repeats.

-----

Maybe you should buy a PS5. >.>

[Alhanelem]

you can't hit big corporations in the pocket book:If you think companies like SE are too big to fail you haven't been paying attention to their finances. Or other well known companies- especially in the retail sector, with many massive and once beloved names failing to stay relevant and offer what their customers wanted having disappeared.

To influence them you have to show them that what they are doing isn't benefitting their continued existence. If you buy their products, you're telling them that they're doing something right.

On an individual level, yeah, you can't really do much. it takes the collective effort of their customer base being unhappy with their products. But it all starts with one unhappy person.

Never say never.

[Dihlyte]

I find it funny because you're so blatantly bad that you failed to solicit help from literally the most helpful of community games, that I highly suspect you of lying or of ulterior motives.



I am not sure if you didn’t understand, or … exactly what you just said, but I did say I reached 99, as well accomplished other tasks.

I also said I received help. I simply do not recall every instance I received help because this was 12 years ago.

At the time I was playing XIV as well, and was enjoying that game more. (FFXIV 1.18/1.23b) and then when XIV was down before 2.0 I came back and accomplished more tasks, then went back to XIV.

I’m not sure where I said I failed or asked for sympathy. You asked a question and I answered it. I think you just didn’t understand the answer, or jumped to conclusions without having the full picture.

I also enjoy playing on my own terms, and instead prefer not to ask for help, which is why I appreciate the trust system. Which is also why I enjoyed the solo challenge, but there simply were times I needed to party up, and when those times came, I obviously got the help. My statement was that the game prior to trusts was designed in a way you needed party members almost constantly, and joining so late into the game, that newer players had a “steeper hill” so to speak. What that means is in say 2002 or 2004 there were more players at lower levels, and fewer at levels 50 and 75. Then come 2012 significantly more players at level 99 and very few at level 1. That is pretty normal, and I would imagine understandable. I never said I didn’t ever get help or failed. I said I reached 99 and completed a number of missions, the other details I simply do not remember, again, this was 12 years ago.

I have since stopped playing XIV, and now play XI strictly and have completed all missions, multiple times over, cleared all V0 odyssey NM’s created a handful of REMA’s including an Aeonic.

I really don’t know where your comment came from, but I believe you’re mistaken.

[Dragoy]

Then come 2012 significantly more players at level 99 and very few at level 1.

Twas also the time when Abyssea leveling up in big parties was a mighty big thing, which you mentioned you didn't have (I never liked or did it but a couple of times with linkshells; I got my first level 99 in Campaign Battle (same as with level 75), though of course there were a bunch of levels betwixt from actual "old-school" parties, and I've played since 2005, at 1399 days playtime on my oldest character at this moment (without bazaaring stuff or AFK online all the time)).

[Dihlyte]

Twas also the time when Abyssea leveling up in big parties was a mighty big thing, which you mentioned you didn't have (I never liked or did it but a couple of times with linkshells; I got my first level 99 in Campaign Battle (same as with level 75), though of course there were a bunch of levels betwixt from actual "old-school" parties, and I've played since 2005, at 1399 days playtime on my oldest character at this moment (without bazaaring stuff or AFK online all the time)).

Yeah looking back, my best option was to just get Abyssea, but the reason I didn't immediately jump into it, was because I was just more interested in XIV.

Since now I have completely lost interest in XIV, I'm happy to hear of all the new updates coming to XI, and really enjoying my time with this game.

I think XI now is really fleshed out and quite the expansive experience, which I appreciate about the game, as to me that is what a true MMORPG is all about. Crafting a massive experience that you can really sink your teeth into.

I come to RPG's, more specifically MMORPG's because I do have time to sit down and enjoy the experience, and I want to be challenged and I do want to explore.

[Stompa]

The other obvious reason why FFXI is the greatest computer-game of all time, are the NPC Heroes.

FFXI has so many NPC Heroes, with so many colourful unique personalities and back-stories.

It is sometimes said, that Life Has A Narrative Quality, meaning that life essentially reads like a story, being that the life of the universe, or the life of the smallest living being. There is a story-book narrative quality. Things like Deja-vu and Precognition, fit into this idea that the story is written, and we are glimpsing pages from the book as we read through it.

In FFXI the NPC Heroes have stories to tell, they have personalities. My favourite NPC Hero of all time, in any computer-game, is Apururu. She has a very interesting story, and a very amusing world-view.

In all the other computer-games I've played, there were maybe two or three NPC Heroes that I remember vividly. Even though I liked those other games, and enjoyed the narrative story-lines, and appreciated the NPC Heroes, they slip from my memory. The NPC Heroes in Vana'diel are so vivid and profound, they stay in my memory, and feel as though they are part of my life story, in a deep way, completely unlike any other computer-game.

[Jordache]

words

It was literally the first half of your post.

Anyway, I don't like your personality and prose; so: I'm just going to ignore your from now on.

[Dragoy]

Yeah looking back, my best option was to just get Abyssea, but the reason I didn't immediately jump into it, was because I was just more interested in XIV.

Since now I have completely lost interest in XIV, I'm happy to hear of all the new updates coming to XI, and really enjoying my time with this game.

You did what you felt more like doing, and I think that was the best choice at the time!

Perhaps things would have gone different if you did more XI back then, I mean, they would have, but we'll need to discover the Cavernous Maw to take us back and see I maybe guess.

I think I was the same a lot in the sense that I did everything I could alone as much as I could, but I also did stuff with friends, from which the latter always made me enjoy the game the most.

I still do things mostly alone, but still enjoy playing with others too. I don't do the end-game stuff that I can't do alone though. Not without close friends due to how many people nowadays use... uh... "helper-things"...

I digress, but I think I can relate a lot!