My continued support of FFXI, and SE as a company.

[Dihlyte]

Greetings everyone,

Allow me to start out by saying, likely the most important part of this post:

Square-Enix quite possibly will never even see, read, nor consider this post, so if it offends you in anyway, it is not my intent, and your concern should not be alarming.



The point:
I do not believe I wish to continue to support SE and FFXI much longer, if no changes are made.

I originally planned to go into detail, but I will instead keep it simple.

I fell in love with the FF series with FFVII. It was my first RPG.

RPG's are *not* games I will play:
-when I am tired.
-when I want to sit and relax
-when I have limited time.

If I have "limited time/want to relax/or am tired" I will watch a movie, or play Mario Cart, etc.

I play RPG's when:
-I *want* to be challenged.
-When I do have free time.
-When I am wanting an immersive, and engaging experience.

RPG's to me should:

-Be engaging.
-Require thought.
-Be challenging
-Have hidden (off the map) locations.
-Offer meaningful/valuable/lasting rewards
-Take "longer than usual"
-Have rare hard to find/spawn enemies.
-Have customizable stats
-Interesting/creative/diverse large casts of characters and locations.

These are the reasons I love RPG's/FFXI in its current state, and why I dislike FFXIV in its current state, as "current" examples.


RPG's when done with care, quality, and creativity, do sell well.
Namely: FFVII, FFVIII, FFIX, FFX, FFXII.

(A modern example could be Baldur's Gate 3.)

I personally do not think I can support this new direction.


There are so many people who do not even know FFXI servers are even still online.

There are over 25 million players who have tried and quit FFXIV, and the forums are rampant with complaints that go unheard.

Final Fantasy can do so much better if the above were resolved, and the fact they exist speaks volumes to me. I am not a vocal minority.

More people have tried and quit FFXIV than have tried XIV and are still playing.

There are far more people unaware of FFXI's online status, or the new content/changes than there are "me" type people.

[chief_bigman]

Keep an eye on SE's stocks after the initial Dawntrail hype (is there even much of that this time around?) wears off. Gonna be interesting...

[Dihlyte]

I agree about the stocks. We shall see.

To clarify my post, my gripe is not with FFXI now.

I feel FFXI has done so many great things in the past 5 years. All the right things I would even say.
(Except the reduction of staff, and using FFXI's revenue for other titles. Along with the things I listed in my original post.)

In fact, this is why I would consider stopping my subscription from XI. Due how much of FFXI's profits are going to things that are not RPG's.

I do not wish to support a company that is pouring decades of revenue into titles that alienate their lifelong fanbase.

[Immortal]

What a shame, this game deserves better

[Alhanelem]

Square-Enix quite possibly will never even see, read, nor consider this postCommunity reps DO still see and read posts. Consideration is entirely dependent on what it's about.

We all want what you want, unfortunately, we're not likely to get much of it. SE is much less inclined to support their MMOs forever and ever (including FFXIV, which already seems to be planning for a future like FFXI's). Ultimately they make decisions based on the numbers, and the numbers seem to be telling them they won't see much of a return on any big investment into the game. The passion of those of us who are still here is not enough to make a big corporation make unsound or risky financial decisions.

The best thing to do if you're not happy and not getting the enjoyment you feel you deserve for what you're spending, rather than spread gloom and doom on a discussion forum, is to just stop giving them money. Their response to declining player numbers seems to be to spend less accordingly, rather than make an effort to retain and recruit new players.

[chief_bigman]

The passion of those of us who are still here is not enough to make a big corporation make unsound or risky financial decisions.
I think it's painfully clear at this point that Square Enix does not need help or encouragement to make unsound, risky financial decisions.

[Alhanelem]

I think it's painfully clear at this point that Square Enix does not need help or encouragement to make unsound, risky financial decisions.
pray tell what unsound and risky financial decision do you think they're making? Because, as much as I love this game, dumping a ton of money into FFXI is an unsound, risky financial decision. Every cost-benefit analysis I could imagine would tell them the costs are too high and the probable benefit just isn't there. It would probably be more expensive than losing the income from FFXI entirely to change this game in such a way as to bring everybody back and then some.

FFXI neither is nor was ever one of the biggest MMOs out there. Even if they remaster or give the game some big update, it's not going to make a miracle happen. Sure, I can picture a long, slow road of growth with continued investment, but there has to be a significant enough return on that investment. It would have to make FFXI relevant in a sea of MMOs that are all more popular than FFXI ever was.

And I say this because its the truth. in spite of how much I love this game and how much it's been a part of my life for more than two decades (i.e. more than half of my existence) I have enough of an understanding of business economics to know that this isn't enough to sustain a game like this. SE is a business and has to make financial decisions in its best interest. And I'd have to search pretty hard to find a plane of existence where FFXI magically becomes a successful and hugely popular enough MMO to convince SE to keep dumping money into it.

if FFXI had been made by a small studio whose only work was this game, you'd probably see them fighting to keep it alive, yes. You'd see them pour their heart and soul into it because they want to make an awesome experience first and be a famous money making company second. Sadly that won't get you many investors in this world.

[Immortal]

FFXI was the highest grossing FF game, what ya talking about like its some massive money pit. The game itself doesn't even require much in terms of investment because its reaped the benefits 10x over. They are going to kill it faster and gain 0 instead of investing a little and maintaining its population/returning players. I swear everyone thinks they are armchair business economists today. If this was the case, why would they ever create another game or remaster/remake any old games when they can simply copy and paste games like WoW, candy crush, fortnite etc? It would be every attempt they make currently.

[Alhanelem]

FFXI was the highest grossing FF gameNot on this plane of existence it wasn't.

WoW has been out nearly as long as FFXI and has made orders of magnitude more money than FFXI. It's not even the most profitable or successful game of its era, much less any era since. And while you might argue it's not fair to compare them now, even back in the day, WoW clearly didn't take very long to surprass FFXI's revenue. I didn't ask the bot but I'm willing to bet everquest has made more money as well. It doesn't have the biggest playerbase these days but I'm pretty sure it has always had more players.

Just for fun, I asked everyone's favorite AI chatbot to come up with an estimate of FFXI and WoW's revinue, and it came up with an estimate of $1.5 billion since may 2002, and for WoW, $14.5 billion since 2004. Nearly an order of magnitude more in less time.

[Immortal]

Someone doesn't read apparently

[Standstill]

As of October 2023, the most recent official information available, Final Fantasy XIV, had 27 million registered users worldwide. This number includes both active and inactive players. Sharing some info on server populations based on recent FFXIAH Auction House activity:

Asura: Still the most active server, with over 5,800 characters using the AH in the past 90 days.

Bahamut: iddle ground with around 3,400 active characters.

Phoenix & Odin: Both hover around 2,900 and 2,800 characters, respectively.

Final Fantasy XIV is still going strong. currently, Servers are at max capacity with wait times. Comparing the two by the current player base is asinine. FFXIV will win that battle all day, every day.

Some of us have taken a break only because of the longer-than-normal development cycle due to COVID-19. It was also an excellent time to revisit FFXI. Not all RPG enthusiasts resonate with every attribute you have listed. Some individuals may value accessibility and quicker experiences over extended commitments.

Final Fantasy XI was always a game that required teamwork to accomplish your goals. However, regardless of how you "feel" or anyone else, it does not negate the fact that this caused issues. Players in the 75-era could prevent others from seeing, let alone participating in content. Are you suggesting that type of behavior never existed? I can tell you from playing from 2003 until 2008, it most certainly did. Technically that behavior could possibly persist today with content such as Delve.

What complaints are you speaking about? Please be specific, complaints because their job isn't the current META in Savage? With the current Raid Finder and Party Finder, it is relatively easy to get a pickup group and learn harder content. Or do you suggest that content should be gated? That is an elitist mindset if you feel that way. The only truly gated content in FFXIV is ultimates, which takes some preparation to unlock if you are a new player or a player who wishes to try it. It will still require a group.

I can see specific minor gripes; however small, they are not game-breaking issues for FFXIV. Crafting was certainly watered down; it could be improved upon.

Final Fantasy XI just celebrated 20 years did it not? Final Fantasy XI actually began earlier than you might think! Development can be traced back to November 1999. Crystal Tools was the in-house engine developed for creating its online games. Game development originally started on PS2 Dev Kits. This severely limited the graphical capabilities and user interface of this game. To clarify, Square-Enix also uses a heavily modified and updated Crystal Tools development engine for FFXIV and only shares the similarity in name.

FFXI's uniqueness was also a product of its demise. QoL features that we currently see in the game are features that players asked for and are still hampered by the constraints of the game. Players in FFXIV obviously take for granted the ease of transportation versus what many of us including myself, endured here in FFXI for years. But this is an answer to your statement that player complaints fall on deaf ears.

FFXI will always be a gem in MMOs and is one of the few that started them all. The current state of FFXI? Honestly, with all the power creep in gear and job points, the game would be better off being remade with modern QoL features similar to FFXIV's in set expansions of the originals. Remove the bloat and keep the good stuff.

We could go down this rabbit hole, but it's a very complex topic.

1st post in 20 years.

[Standstill]

Exactly what plane are you on? The op said that XI was the highest-growing FF game to date, which is correct. However, it hasn't been reported on, so it would be safe to assume that FFXIV has already taken that title.

[Standstill]

FFXI was the highest grossing FF game, what ya talking about like its some massive money pit. The game itself doesn't even require much in terms of investment because its reaped the benefits 10x over. They are going to kill it faster and gain 0 instead of investing a little and maintaining its population/returning players. I swear everyone thinks they are armchair business economists today. If this was the case, why would they ever create another game or remaster/remake any old games when they can simply copy and paste games like WoW, candy crush, fortnite etc? It would be every attempt they make currently.

For example, making a reasonable attempt at a remake for this game would cost upwards of $400,000,000.00 or more. Companies expect a good ROI on their investment; they are only going to invest capital they know with a good probability of seeing a positive return. They still have to pay the monthly expenses for the maintenance of FFXI. I know, crazy, they have to pay for electricity; sorry if that comes off facetious. The game simply needs to be remade, and simply squabbling about it isn't going to make it happen. Individuals or someone with a lot of conviction would have to provide a pretty compelling argument to remake XI. I suggest to everyone to be happy with what you got. If any new QoL features happen here great, just don't expect a renascence. As for armchair business economists, may you be reminded that individuals who have played, play this game can potentially come from every level of the socio-economic scale. From burger flippers to lawyers. With that being said from an economic point of view, there is just enough player base here to keep the lights on. Enough?

[Haldarn]

Because, as much as I love this game, dumping a ton of money into FFXI is an unsound, risky financial decision. Every cost-benefit analysis I could imagine would tell them the costs are too high and the probable benefit just isn't there. It would probably be more expensive than losing the income from FFXI entirely to change this game in such a way as to bring everybody back and then some.

That's very basic economics. We can get a bit more advanced for a company the size of Square-Enix.

Intellectual Property exists on a company's balance sheet as an intangible asset. FFXI's value outside the direct profitability you describe relies on a number of factors; that it has brand association with the Final Fantasy series itself (though granted frustratingly often appears toward the bottom of 'best Final Fantasy' lists despite its profitability, due to perceived inaccessibility for solo play and/or subscription); the investment into transferable assets like characters, models, environments and storylines, progression systems; the significant goodwill from existing and past players of the game.

Now, for sure, this intangible value is in freefall and will be being written down off the balance sheet at each financial reporting period. It will be seen by accountants as a constant cost that actually isn't offset by current profitability. Of course, there are a number of solutions, directly; remove or combine the subscription, advertise specifically as solo-friendly; continue to generate low-cost content that adds value to the IP, such as storylines with cutscenes (without the constant desire to put in higher and higher tier gear); revitalise existing events and virtually unused assets; treat players like you're not abandoning them, or that they're stupid for continuing to invest their time and money.

In my opinion, this comes down to a lack of vision and willpower from Fujito-P, and an acceptance from the Yoshi-P that he is the right person for the job despite that. XI was hamstrung by Yoshi-P while he considered it a threat to XIV's growth (before that skyrocketed). There was a period when suddenly a huge Twitch streamer boosted player numbers considerably, the Refriender was developed, a mobile game was outsourced (and was the right solution to take a game like FFXI into the future - see Nexon's V4, which is clearly what they used the aborted XI-R development for), all graphical models were updated into the modern FFXIV engine, a new storyline was kicked off, a fan had shown how easy it was for a professional to upscale textures to HD, and to crown it all off, the 20th Anniversary was around the corner. When that arrived, all we got instead of a glorious future (like most of the other 20yr old MMOs that are still going) was a resignation of Matsui-P, a downsizing of the dev team, confirmation that all that was planned was the conclusion to TVR, and this weird, unwanted museum-ification of the game like it was doing us a favour and how we'd want our subscriptions spent.

Simply put, if there was a professional at Square-Enix who would fight for FFXI, there is plenty that could be done. If FFXIV could be taken offline for a year after two years of live service to be fixed, a parallel redevelopment of FFXI shouldn't be an issue at all. There are plenty of great things that can be done to the game, which have been discussed at length over the last decade on these forums and elsewhere.

At the very very least, Square-Enix should be farming out redevelopment of the game into a modern engine that's reasonably future-proof (ie upgradeable) to an independent software house, where their licensing fee can arrest the haemorrhaging IP value.

I completely sympathise with the OP. XI is suffering because of mismanagement by CBU3, who were so overstretched by XVI (which is very pretty, but just doesn't have a good game system or a good story), that their XIV FanFests have shown that they're well behind schedule on Dawntrail. Yoshi-P's egotistical desire to want to deliver a solo FF game *whilst being in charge of XIV and XI* has led to XI being discarded with bare minimum respect and XIV being in dire straits (patch 6.55 is next Tuesday and is the last new content until Dawntrail, which has an undisclosed 'Summer' release date, but as far as we know may be 31st August - expecting ppl to pay 8mo of subs for zero new content).

Put someone at the helm of XI who has a passion for its future. Set the standard for what happens to 20yr old MMOs.

[Haldarn]

For example, making a reasonable attempt at a remake for this game would cost upwards of $400,000,000.00 or more.

XV was $275mil. An XI remake into the XIV environment already has all of the models, it already has all of the storyline, dialogue, cutscenes storyboarded, the drops and drop rates decided, the crafting system, the events, the enemy behaviours, the networking protocols. It would need a new UI (the XIV one is really good, so use that), the environment meshes increased in resolution, could use XIV textures in the main, and exclusive systems coded (please make gearswapping an actual mechanic), etc etc. That's nowhere near the cost of a AAA game, could be done over an extended period by a smaller team, and if announced in advance, would cause huge positivity within the community (as long as we were updated with progress every month like Yoshi-P used to do for XIV).

My accountancy experience is in healthcare, events and charity, not video games, so I can't budget it accurately, but it's well under $275mil and vastly under the $400mil you quote (which may be an appropriate figure for eg an FFXVII MMO).

Also consider that while doing this, you're using an existing IP and adding value to it, adding experience to your staff, and solidifying loyalty of your customers, all which have financial value.

[Catmato]

pray tell what unsound and risky financial decision do you think they're making?

Selling their IPs to Embracer group. Focusing on blockchain technology. Avengers. Forspoken.




WoW ...
...everquest...

Those are not Final Fantasy games.

[Sp1cyryan]

:rolleyes: Thanks for sharing, OP

[Standstill]

XV was $275mil. An XI remake into the XIV environment already has all of the models, it already has all of the storyline, dialogue, cutscenes storyboarded, the drops and drop rates decided, the crafting system, the events, the enemy behaviours, the networking protocols. It would need a new UI (the XIV one is really good, so use that), the environment meshes increased in resolution, could use XIV textures in the main, and exclusive systems coded (please make gearswapping an actual mechanic), etc etc. That's nowhere near the cost of a AAA game, could be done over an extended period by a smaller team, and if announced in advance, would cause huge positivity within the community (as long as we were updated with progress every month like Yoshi-P used to do for XIV).

My accountancy experience is in healthcare, events and charity, not video games, so I can't budget it accurately, but it's well under $275mil and vastly under the $400mil you quote (which may be an appropriate figure for eg an FFXVII MMO).

Also consider that while doing this, you're using an existing IP and adding value to it, adding experience to your staff, and solidifying loyalty of your customers, all which have financial value.

FFXIV 1.0 cost the company a whopping 400,000,000 USD in development and marketing costs. They exceeded the budget in 2011 to increase marketing costs due to dismal subscription and sales rates. FFXIV 2.0 ARR financial figures were never publicly disclosed; however, they did state they went over budget for marketing again. Development costs for 2.0 were lower, considering 2.0 utilized much of the existing infrastructure and assets from 1.0. Many financial analysts highly agree upon that 2.0 was also close to 400,000,000 USD. Square-Enix would have to invest in new server infrastructure for a remake of FFXI.

Simply put, everything from outside the storyline and dialogue would have to be rebuilt from the ground up. They have that going for them.

Just to clarify on the subject of XI and XIV 1.0. They both used the Crystal Tools development engine. The latter was modified heavily, but both were technically built for offline play. 2.0 incorporated Luminous tools, allowing the development team to reach their desired results. The current networking protocols for XIV would probably work, but as with everything else would have to be tailored to fit FFXI's environment.

As I previously stated, a remake could be accomplished by rolling out the game in the same tiered set of expansions as the original. But it would take considerable effort and a large development team to take on such an endeavor. I personally would like to see a remake made.

There are other ways to achieve the effect of gear swapping; in fact, they coded against it in FFXIV. But that doesn't mean it couldn't be brought to a remake in a new and different form. I have thought of of a system that would fill this role nicely.

Would I want a true-to-the-original remake? No, not really. The Job/Subjob system yes of course was part of the appeal. From a geographical standpoint in the game, yes the layout of the zones in relation to one another would have to be the same. But there are countless changes that need to be made to the game which would make it more appealing and user friendly.

FFXIV already uses instanced areas for player congestion; there is no reason to think this couldn't be done for the dungeons in FFXI. The zone could be instanced, you would be allowed to enter solo or via party finder.
The fate system in XIV is a wonderful idea, that could be used for NMs. The NM" S could also be level synced, and group participation allowed, the chance of drop based off performance to all those who contributed. That would be a fair system for that.
The crystal and aetheryte system would also have to be incorporated, the use of XIV's UI, flying mounts, and the storage system of XIV, the questing system of XIV, the movement and targeting system of XIV.

Things that need to be removed.
1. Having to purchase maps
2. Being pigeonholed into the use of one subjob. Duel wield anyone (They could honestly allow a set of passive abilities that don't eat up space for further customization without taking away from the subjob system)
3. Currency Bloat
4. Group play going from 6 to 5 players.

As I said, just too much to mention.

[Alhanelem]

Someone doesn't read apparentlyAnd that someone is you.

Also you can't really say things like this without speaking to what provoked you to make this kind of immature comment.



They both used the Crystal Tools development engine.I don't think this is correct, and Crystal Tools didn't exist in any capacity at the time FFXI's development began. Please do prove me wrong with citations.



But there are countless changes that need to be made to the game which would make it more appealing and user friendly. What frustrates me is they began to do some things towards this but it all got scrapped. A mouse/keyboard friendly UI with a lot more functionality and customizability was in development and we got to see a *very* early version with placeholder assets on the Test Server. But then it stopped getting updated and we never saw it. players of the game created an upscaled texture set (no new art, just upscaled and smoothed) and it makes the game look a million times better with almost no work and they couldn't be bothered to do that even though it could have been done almost entirely with automation.

Now obviously that would just be a start, to appeal to modern audiences they'd need to make the experience a lot less clunky, i.e. way less animation lock, ditch the player on player collision, and redo the networking backend so things like loading the inventory which really isn't all that much data don't take forever, which would likely be a big undertaking. But other things like offering higher res or at least simple upscaling of textures could improve the game considerably with not a lot of investment. And then, if those things proved successful, then they might see a potential for return on more investnment.

[Alhanelem]

Those are not Final Fantasy games. What's your point? I know they're not final fantasy games. They're MMOs that competed with FFXI. Both of which were more successful. FFXI was and is much more of a niche MMO that probably would have faded into obscurity a long time ago if it didn't carry the FF name.



Selling their IPs to Embracer group. Focusing on blockchain technology. Avengers. Forspoken. Well, yes. I definitely agree with these. But I can't fault them too much for seeing how much money is being tossed around with crypto and NFTs and thinking "we can print money with this!" Of course they could have realized also that their current clientele are mostly not interested in such things, but that's another thing entirely.




In my opinion, this comes down to a lack of vision and willpower from Fujito-P, and an acceptance from the Yoshi-P that he is the right person for the job despite that. XI was hamstrung by Yoshi-P while he considered it a threat to XIV's growthFFXI was never a threat to XIV's growth, and unless you have some sort of proof or statement from Yoshida, I do not believe that he ever looked at FFXI in this way. FFXI was declining before he took over the FFXIV project. It is highly improbable that it would have had anything to do with FFXIV's success or failiure. I do however agree with your view on Fujito's lack of vision.

FFXIV 1.x tried to convert FFXI players (and failed horribly). A Realm Reborn however, basically ignored FFXI entirely and decided to go full fan service mode to attract all the Final Fantasy fans who DIDN'T play FFXI.



Simply put, if there was a professional at Square-Enix who would fight for FFXI, Honestly, there probably is, but they're being shot down by the corporate bigwigs who hold the purse strings, who don't see the probable benefit in spending a lot of money to revive an MMO that just became old enough to drink.

I sympathize with the OP too, but making a melodramatic "I QUIT" post isn't going to convince SE to do anything, instead it will probably just have them thinking they should cut their losses.

[Catmato]

What's your point? I know they're not final fantasy games. They're MMOs that competed with FFXI. Both of which were more successful. FFXI was and is much more of a niche MMO that probably would have faded into obscurity a long time ago if it didn't carry the FF name.


You were replying to "FFXI was the highest grossing FF game" then proceeded to talk about games that are not FF games, never even mentioning another Final Fantasy game. This is almost certainly also why the other poster correctly said you apparently don't read. While you weren't wrong, none of your post had any relevance in context of what you were replying to.

[Dihlyte]

What happened?

The first page of responses were mostly meaningful and the discussion was healthy. The second page went so fast off the rails.

I am not entirely sure who is responding to who, and I'd not like to step on any toes making any assumptions.



I would like to thank anyone who contributed with thoughtfulness, and reasoning.

It is not entirely helpful to say certain phrases against another commenter. I think it would be more helpful to give someone the benefit of the doubt. If someone makes an error in their response it would be considerate to give them the benefit of the doubt, and help clarify any misunderstandings.



I know the internet is a place of more open speech, and when we are passionate about a video game it is helpful to express that passion, but not letting it go overboard helps SE take into consideration what is being said.



Someone did respond to me, and I do agree, quitting the game entirely is the most sound choice I can make.

With that said, I did quit XIV.

I am just voicing my opinion in regards to my subscription to FFXI is not as "invested" as it could be, due to poor choices at SE regarding other titles.

I still very much enjoy XI, so we'll see how much I want to continue supporting this particular title.

[Alhanelem]

You were replying to "FFXI was the highest grossing FF game" then proceeded to talk about games that are not FF games, never even mentioning another Final Fantasy game. This is almost certainly also why the other poster correctly said you apparently don't read. While you weren't wrong, none of your post had any relevance in context of what you were replying to.
Well I actually somehow read it as highest grossing MMO or something like that, that's why.

But it still isn't the highest grossing FF game, FFXIV beat it a long time ago. They charge the same (on average) subscription rates, and have many more value added upsells available that people are happily spending money on. They have more players, and that just adds up to more gross revenue in less time.

[Alhanelem]

What happened?

The first page of responses were mostly meaningful and the discussion was healthy. The second page went so fast off the rails.

I am not entirely sure who is responding to who, and I'd not like to step on any toes making any assumptions.



I would like to thank anyone who contributed with thoughtfulness, and reasoning.

It is not entirely helpful to say certain phrases against another commenter. I think it would be more helpful to give someone the benefit of the doubt. If someone makes an error in their response it would be considerate to give them the benefit of the doubt, and help clarify any misunderstandings.



I know the internet is a place of more open speech, and when we are passionate about a video game it is helpful to express that passion, but not letting it go overboard helps SE take into consideration what is being said.



Someone did respond to me, and I do agree, quitting the game entirely is the most sound choice I can make.

With that said, I did quit XIV.

I am just voicing my opinion in regards to my subscription to FFXI is not as "invested" as it could be, due to poor choices at SE regarding other titles.

I still very much enjoy XI, so we'll see how much I want to continue supporting this particular title.
I don't see any "overboard" discussion going on here. SE is well aware of the state of their games and what most of the rest of the discussion was about was that. They made financial business decisions to take their games in the directions they have. No amount of passion expressed by us is going to sway them in another direction, because at the end of the day, SQUARE ENIX is a huge corporation and makes all of its decisions about its projects based on the financials.

SE will read these posts, I know some of their community reps and I know they read this stuff and pass things on where they can. Beyond that though, it would be unwise to expect any sort of change from making a thread where you basically threaten to quit.

It does seem strange to me to hear you say you quit the game that they are currently actively supporting and developing new content for, because that seems to be your main point of consternation with FFXI. Of course, in fairness, the same sort of thing will very likely happen with FFXIV in another ten years. Let's just hope they don't make an FFXVII Online.

[Immortal]

Well I actually somehow read it as highest grossing MMO or something like that, that's why.

But it still isn't the highest grossing FF game, FFXIV beat it a long time ago. They charge the same (on average) subscription rates, and have many more value added upsells available that people are happily spending money on. They have more players, and that just adds up to more gross revenue in less time.

You literally can't make this up, look at this guys posts. He literally just confirmed he did not read my post, and even attacked me in his previous post saying I was the one not reading lol. YOU ARE NOT READING POSTS, YOU ARE LITERALLY INSERTING YOUR WEIRD OPINION INTO POSTS TO HURRILY ATTACK PEOPLE lmao.

-FFXI was, WAS <---- , the highest grossing FINAL FANTASY game. This is a fact, the reason its not anymore and XIV overtook it is because the stupid company running it into the ground has dumped countless resources into XIV and almost 0 into XI. XIV has had banners in times sq in NYC, so much funding and ridiculous commercials with celebrities and XI has had literally 0 of that in all of its time. You could argue it had more success with much more limited resources in comparison to what they dumped into XIV.

So lets recap so you can understand this clearly, you are wrong and arguing something completely off topic.

[BobbinT]

For some1 who likes to do bragging rights, he didn't even notice there's a "WAS", & even comparing to non FF, then later ignoring that "WAS" again by saying "but FF14 beat that long time ago". :rolleyes:

Srsly, put that guy in ignore list like I do. I had like enough of having the recent "Ahalee" incident during my free login on Bahamut which stays like the ENTIRE free login time, & seeing ppl kept feeding the troll to make it even worse, & y'all just did similarly. -_-

[chief_bigman]

I am just voicing my opinion in regards to my subscription to FFXI is not as "invested" as it could be, due to poor choices at SE regarding other titles.

I still very much enjoy XI, so we'll see how much I want to continue supporting this particular title.
Personally, I don't see myself resubbing (only playing during Return to Vana campaigns) unless they start showing some more respect for this game and its fans. Giving SE money for how they're treating the game at this stage feels like saying "Yeah I'm ok with this, keep doing it." I think I'll let all the multiboxers, ban-immune bots/RMTers and mercs fund the backend upgrades in the meantime ;)


I had like enough of having the recent "Ahalee" incident during my free login on Bahamut which stays like the ENTIRE free login time
lmao, I logged on right in the middle of that too.

[Alhanelem]

omg so strange lmao. You are reporting people for pointing out that you are wrongI'm reporting posts for flaming, not for being wrong. There is a massive, gargantuan, huge, enourmous difference. Maybe you missed this part of my post:

I made an error. I admitted that error. There is no justification for your behavior.
Reporting your post has nothing to do with being right or wrong about anything, and everything to do with toxic behavior.


You also mock me for my style of typing, I feel offended and maybe you should report yourself It's not a "style of typing," it's deliberate aggression.

Look man, I gave you your opportunity to dial this back or otherwise deal with it in a civilized manner, and clearly you just want to smear me and troll. I admitted my error, which it was nothing more than that, and here you are still giving me a hard time.

[Immortal]

lol deliberate aggression but you are the one reporting people. Nothing in my posts is flaming or aggressive, you are just upset you were wrong and called out on it. Isn't it easier to just say, oops i misread that my bad. Instead you are reporting people, whos the one being toxic here?

[Sp1cyryan]

lol whos the one being toxic here?

"OMG, so strange", it is you. You just aren't self-aware is all.

[Alhanelem]

lol deliberate aggression but you are the one reporting people. Is that really your defense?

You aren't following the code of conduct, therefore I am not taking any inappropriate action in reporting violations of said code. This line of discussion should have ceased with my admission of error. The fact that you continue to attack me for it makes you the aggressor.

[Beastorizer]

(Which account am I on? Doesn't matter...)



Welcome to the Yoshi P Final Fantasy Era.



Imo (Just my opinion folks....), the failure of XIV ultimately damaged not only their revenue/earnings, but approach to Final Fantasy games from that point forward (It was not the Avengers which initially damaged SE.....). They began to abandon all conventional wisdom, for trendy mechanics. I challenge anyone to find a worst trio of successive FF releases this bad..........



XIV: Which initially failed

XV: Maybe the most hated FF

XVI: Like a visual novel.....and SE lost a ton of $$$$$$ shortly after its' release......(Add on some controversial language from non-other than Yoshi)



As for XI, made a reddit thread about "Falling out of love with XI" (Dramatic...). Forced myself to sub up to get some Relics and Mythics done......and more Monstrosity due to the campaign. Well, there lies the problem. I am not interested in any of the new content lol.



There was a 50 page Monstrosity thread (Started by them btw....), but was ignored...... (By them btw...)



https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/36535-Monstrosity-Feedback



I find any excuse to talk about Mon....cool, got it.... but you can't deny how they swept a highly demanded promising new feature under the rug. There were things they could do to integrate Mon into the game.

Example, allow players to sync up and create exp parties with other players or mons. Parties earn boosted exp, merits, JP, etc. To incentive it, add ROE objectives from specific areas once per week (There is enough areas to last a week). Players can also earn an amazing amount of Gallantry and Hallmarks from these objectives too.

So, Indvidual's can create a party going from the Dunes to the Moon finishing objectives, moving on to the other areas. The JPs earned also makes exp merc useless, since you earn a $hit ton upon completing objectives. The ROE objectives are categorized by series, which makes it easier to find ppl. They do not take too long to complete either.

Noobs can join, vets, etc.......Incentivize it, so ppl would do it. Folks could simply group up and go through their old leveling grounds as a player character or Mon while earning valuable items.



To piggyback off of the OP's topic, feel like SE stopped supporting one of their most profitable titles. Folks bash players who play XI....by other means......My logic is, SE does not support XI, so why should they? SE thinks XI is their gift to the players because they simply keep a profitable service up and running while taking people's money lol?



https://i.gifer.com/origin/c3/c367b3dcc913ad449523b2737fa148b7_w200.gif

[Alhanelem]

The players stopped supporting it and then SE did in turn, not the other way around. The playerbase declined while the game was still getting full updates. They released a new expansion, it didn't go that well, planned content was cut.... Ultimately the game's performance declined and thus so did their investment- A self fufilling prophecy.

[Standstill]

(Which account am I on? Doesn't matter...)



Welcome to the Yoshi P Final Fantasy Era.



Imo (Just my opinion folks....), the failure of XIV ultimately damaged not only their revenue/earnings, but approach to Final Fantasy games from that point forward (It was not the Avengers which initially damaged SE.....). They began to abandon all conventional wisdom, for trendy mechanics. I challenge anyone to find a worst trio of successive FF releases this bad..........



XIV: Which initially failed

XV: Maybe the most hated FF

XVI: Like a visual novel.....and SE lost a ton of $$$$$$ shortly after its' release......(Add on some controversial language from non-other than Yoshi)



As for XI, made a reddit thread about "Falling out of love with XI" (Dramatic...). Forced myself to sub up to get some Relics and Mythics done......and more Monstrosity due to the campaign. Well, there lies the problem. I am not interested in any of the new content lol.



There was a 50 page Monstrosity thread (Started by them btw....), but was ignored...... (By them btw...)



https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/36535-Monstrosity-Feedback



I find any excuse to talk about Mon....cool, got it.... but you can't deny how they swept a highly demanded promising new feature under the rug. There were things they could do to integrate Mon into the game.

Example, allow players to sync up and create exp parties with other players or mons. Parties earn boosted exp, merits, JP, etc. To incentive it, add ROE objectives from specific areas once per week (There is enough areas to last a week). Players can also earn an amazing amount of Gallantry and Hallmarks from these objectives too.

So, Indvidual's can create a party going from the Dunes to the Moon finishing objectives, moving on to the other areas. The JPs earned also makes exp merc useless, since you earn a $hit ton upon completing objectives. The ROE objectives are categorized by series, which makes it easier to find ppl. They do not take too long to complete either.

Noobs can join, vets, etc.......Incentivize it, so ppl would do it. Folks could simply group up and go through their old leveling grounds as a player character or Mon while earning valuable items.



To piggyback off of the OP's topic, feel like SE stopped supporting one of their most profitable titles. Folks bash players who play XI....by other means......My logic is, SE does not support XI, so why should they? SE thinks XI is their gift to the players because they simply keep a profitable service up and running while taking people's money lol?



https://i.gifer.com/origin/c3/c367b3dcc913ad449523b2737fa148b7_w200.gif

FFXIV 1.0 indeed did fail, but it failed from a development standpoint. FFXIV today brings the majority of revenue to SE and is immensely more popular than XI ever was.

From a development standpoint, the developers are limited to an SDK created in 1999. They stopped supporting XI mainly because of these limitations, a dwindling player base, and what they could implement into XIV that wasn't possible in XI. You should read about the resource restraints they had to deal with just making it possible to teleport around East and West Adoulin. It's eye-opening, something that is taken for granted by the player base in XIV.

What many people have to realize is QoL features is what drew people away.

[Immortal]

That is just your opinion, what really drew people away was the fact SE cannibalized its own playerbase by releasing another MMO that was final fantasy related. Don't have to say anymore than that, as its quite obvious. If it was simply QoL features, then nobody would go to any of the private servers because almost all of them have them.

They continued to shower that game with support while barely throwing scraps at the original MMO. Continued like that until the playerbase dwindled enough for them to say ok, time to put it on ice. The limitations were just an excuse over all.

[Alhanelem]

stuff Good, level-headed post. :) Thank you for that.

[Ahalee]

Srsly, put that guy in ignore list like I do. I had like enough of having the recent "Ahalee" incident during my free login on Bahamut which stays like the ENTIRE free login time, & seeing ppl kept feeding the troll to make it even worse, & y'all just did similarly. -_-

What "Ahalee" incident are you even referring to? I never caused any drama and I don't appreciate being called a troll. Maybe you should actually have been there for it instead of spreading rumors. same to chief_bigman who posted in response to that too.

[Alhanelem]

What "Ahalee" incident are you even referring to? I never caused any drama and I don't appreciate being called a troll. Maybe you should actually have been there for it instead of spreading rumors. same to chief_bigman who posted in response to that too.
You know, I actually thought they were referring to me lol...

[Ahalee]

No those guys were referring to the series of much referred to /yell wars I had with a bunch of people over a span of days or maybe weeks and those people were attacking me for doing a PSA regarding being scammed by Euvedant/Lecroucond on the Bahamut server.

[Ahalee]

I didn't. But either way there's other reasons accounts can get banned, not just harassment. Maybe you should understand how reddit works rather than posting ignorant stuff like that. Please explain why you feel the need to act immature, lie through your teeth, defame others and instigate drama. And why can't you admit that maybe you were wrong and have a "vendetta" against me and therefore feel the need to come on the forums and harass me. Oh btw I reported you for your two posts also. Thank you for any response.

[Ahalee]

I never said I got banned. Also I didnt report you for stating facts, I reported you for harassment. You dont really do facts too often by the way.

[Alhanelem]

I never said I got banned. Also I didnt report you for stating facts, I reported you for harassment. You dont really do facts too often by the way.

I hate to say it, but if they weren't satisfied with your performance they had a right to remove you unless you were paying for the privilege.

[Ahalee]

I see Bizarro deleted his post before I had time to respond. What a trooper.

Anyhow, so they technically didn't have the right to remove me under the ToS but I doubt that would be enforced. So instead of wasting my time calling a GM, I did the next best thing and alerted the playerbase to what amounts to a scam (although there are worse scams out there admittedly). Leading people on under false pretenses is scamming behavior. If they had been up front and just did gear check and asked for stats and denied me based on that, then that's no problem and if I had to, I would have formed my own party. But using people to sustain a run and then callously dumping people when it's convenient and when your alt/buddy needs is just wrong and if anyone doesn't realize that, then maybe they weren't raised right or something.

[Rinuko]

What part of the TOS entitles you to not be removed from a party?

[Ahalee]

What part of the TOS entitles you to not be removed from a party?

I never said there was a part of the ToS that entitles me not to be removed. Read up and re-read what I had said please.

[Rinuko]

so they technically didn't have the right to remove me under the ToS but I doubt that would be enforced.

Maybe I misunderstood what you're saying, can you clarify what you meant by this? Sounds like you're stating it's against the ToS to remove someone from a party.

[Bizarro]

I see Bizarro deleted his post before I had time to respond. What a trooper.

Anyhow, so they technically didn't have the right to remove me under the ToS but I doubt that would be enforced. So instead of wasting my time calling a GM, I did the next best thing and alerted the playerbase to what amounts to a scam (although there are worse scams out there admittedly). Leading people on under false pretenses is scamming behavior. If they had been up front and just did gear check and asked for stats and denied me based on that, then that's no problem and if I had to, I would have formed my own party. But using people to sustain a run and then callously dumping people when it's convenient and when your alt/buddy needs is just wrong and if anyone doesn't realize that, then maybe they weren't raised right or something.

I didnt delete it, no idea what happened.

Based on our previous conversations you seem to have a grasp of the ToS, I'm curious where it defines, ". . .technically didn't have the right to remove me . .". Can you give us a specific line number or section where this is stated?

[Alhanelem]

Anyhow, so they technically didn't have the right to remove me under the ToSWhat? You can kick someone from a party for any reason as long as it doesn't constitute harassment or discrimination (i.e. kicking you because of race ethnicity whatever).

Kicking people from parties is a basic function of the game and is most certainly allowed under the TOS. It's only an issue if you are violating some other provision in so doing (i.e. harassing, as mentioned)

You'd be in for a particularly rude awakening if you tried to cite the TOS in an FF14 raid and the leader kicks you for performance. Sure, they technically can't use DPS meters as the basis (i.e. third party tool use) but if you're bad enough that it's observable to the human eye, then no- they have every right to optimize their group.

[Talaya]

(Which account am I on? Doesn't matter...)



Welcome to the Yoshi P Final Fantasy Era.



Imo (Just my opinion folks....), the failure of XIV ultimately damaged not only their revenue/earnings, but approach to Final Fantasy games from that point forward (It was not the Avengers which initially damaged SE.....). They began to abandon all conventional wisdom, for trendy mechanics. I challenge anyone to find a worst trio of successive FF releases this bad..........



XIV: Which initially failed

XV: Maybe the most hated FF


woah woah, XV is a good game, story was good, would have been fantastic if they got to finish it, another example of SE shafting thier games.
was XV perfect? hell no, controls could be a nightmare but it was a fun game and i thoroughly enjoyed it.

13 should be here, i dont know WHY, i just dont get why they put so much money into that pants game and made 3, THREE of the darn things, just let it sit in its own dumpster fire please SE, it wasnt good, stop pushing it.

14 did fail initially, it was reborn with some promise and then swiftly started to throw itself off a cliff over time.
the jobs are mere shells of themselves, they removed everything that made the game interesting, subjob dealio is just gone now, skills are dumb and hollow... the game is basically WoW (yawn...) and the literally just keep taking story and content from other FF titles to shove into XIV to keep interest.... that just seems dumb imo.
i played through all of ShB and the entire time i was like "isnt this just CoP and Zilart from XI?" then im seeing XI models everywhere and when i was finally done with ShB story, i quit and resubbed to 11 again.

XI has more to do long term, 14 is boring, so very boring.
dailies are literally grinding out old dungeons over and over, leveling is literally old dungeons and doing your rotations OVER AND OVER and over and ...... you get it.
that isnt fun, that is borderline torture.

you are probably sitting there like "but in XI, its just fight and grind" in a sense you are correct, but youre missing out on something important here, XI made players connect back in the day, you would make friends, fighting any old mob for EXP was actually difficult to keep going and all in all, i enjoyed that, i dont have time for that now, but when i did, gosh it was good.
nowadays XI is fast to level and i get to change zones fast and mess with new skills and take things at my own pace and not feel locked into any dungeon or whatever just to level up, i dont mind this, i still have people to talk to, and thats the biggest thing i found between XI and XIV, people love to chat in XI, but in XIV, the servers i tried, it was just dead, no one wanted to talk unless you wanted to RP or they wanted something from you.
also Rotation? what's that? we do what we need to and we adapt, we change things up, its not the same 6 skills over and over, there is a ton of ways to do the same content and that is great fun.

XI WAS the highest grossing until a few years ago when XIV took over, but it took XIV over 6 years to do it, so yknow XI was and is doing well financially speaking.
and il say it now and every damn time, if they did crowdfunding for this game to get it updated or whatever, i guarantee they would get funds coming in from fans.
those that love this game, LOVE this game and i think thats so cool.
i wish the team behind XI now would realise how much of the west still love and play it, ive met so many, SO MANY EU and US players who adore XI, its a shame that the west doesnt see much of the fun stuff that the japanese get for the game.


also on the remark of XIV being more popular on its rebirth, you forget that XIV has a f*ckton and i mean a shedload of advertisement, even to this day. when XI came out, the only adverts i ever saw of it was in gaming magazines and even in those magazines back then, it was small and so rare to see, do you see adverts for XI now? no, and i havnt seen any adverts for FFXI in an extremely long time.
there is a vast difference to how XI was treated vs XIV on thier releases.

we could all harp on, day in and day out, but unless the team/SE stop faffing about and actually do something to help XI grow, we are stuck with what we get for now.

we all want XI to grow, we would love to see XI become more and more, just keep voicing it, keep letting them know, show SE how much this game is loved, maybe oneday they will see it the way we do, its a small hope, but you never know, XI has been in and out of maintenance mode many times, lets see what happens.

[Dihlyte]

Some of you are arguing, and others are posting their thoughts on the matter, and for the latter, I am grateful.

I would have a lot to say,l but I am not a fan of people nitpicking my examples and trying to debate the minor details while ignoring the overall message, which is what I attempted to convey in the original post.

I want nothing more than to continue to support "Final Fantasy" the franchise that so many of us have devoted decades of our time and money to build from FFI to FFXI, FFXII and some others here and there removed or added by an individual.

One thing remains, that Final Fantasy as a whole stands for one thing, and the more recent titles are straying further and further way, albeit by different avenues, but as a whole still further than the previous.

FFVII was successful, not because of graphics, but because it had it all. A simple enough story to follow, with a vast world to explore with meaningful secrets, rewards, quests, hidden monsters, mini games, the whole nine yards.

What I do not get, is SE thinks they cannot make another game like that on modern hardware. They absolutely can. They just need to stop caring so much about graphics. You would think FFXIV 1.0, The Spirits Within, and other similar failures or short comings, coupled with the success of titles such as Minecraft or other low graphical games, would have taught them as much, but clearly not.

/shrug.

[Ahalee]

Maybe I misunderstood what you're saying, can you clarify what you meant by this? Sounds like you're stating it's against the ToS to remove someone from a party.

I never said that. Scroll up. It was obvious I was referring to the specific circumstances in which it happened.


I didnt delete it, no idea what happened.

Based on our previous conversations you seem to have a grasp of the ToS, I'm curious where it defines, ". . .technically didn't have the right to remove me . .". Can you give us a specific line number or section where this is stated?

Was referring to the specific circumstances in which it happened. It falls under In-game scams category.


What? You can kick someone from a party for any reason as long as it doesn't constitute harassment or discrimination (i.e. kicking you because of race ethnicity whatever).

Kicking people from parties is a basic function of the game and is most certainly allowed under the TOS. It's only an issue if you are violating some other provision in so doing (i.e. harassing, as mentioned)

You'd be in for a particularly rude awakening if you tried to cite the TOS in an FF14 raid and the leader kicks you for performance. Sure, they technically can't use DPS meters as the basis (i.e. third party tool use) but if you're bad enough that it's observable to the human eye, then no- they have every right to optimize their group.


Some people need to read the context in which I was making the statement and stop trying to mischaracterize what others say. The circumstances in which it happened make it fall under In-game scams category of violation under the ToS.

My performance wasn't poor. It just wasn't what Euvedant/Lecroucond wanted. Please don't assume and stop spreading rumors. You don't know me so I'm not sure why you seem to be attempting to antagonize me with this stuff.

[Alhanelem]

Some people need to read the context in which I was making the statement and stop trying to mischaracterize what others say.What exactly is being mischaracterized here? You specifically and directly cited the TOS to say why you shouldn't have been kicked from a party. I can't think of any other context in which you could say that. If there is, well, that's on you for not being clear in your phrasing.




My performance wasn't poor. It just wasn't what Euvedant/Lecroucond wanted.I'm not making any specific judgements about your performance, which is why I used the word "if." I wasn't there and I don't know how you did or what you did. But ultimately, if they weren't satisfied with what you were doing, they were entirely within the rules and their own rights to remove you. There are only very specific circumstances, such as the use of third party tools in making the decision, where it could potentially be a TOS violation.


Please don't assume and stop spreading rumors.I'm not spreading any rumors. ?????????????



I hate to say it, but if they weren't satisfied Key word here is "if." But as I said, unless they are breaking some other rule, people can kick others from their party for any reason.

There is no rumor here to spread. I'm going entirely off what you have told us. I'm not pre-judging you, or really forming any opinion about you whatsoever. I'm merely stating the facts: If someone kicks you form their party, they don't want to play with you. They are free to make that choice. I'm not trying to antagonize you, only provide the facts.

Life sucks sometimes. I'm not saying you *deserved* to be kicked, I'm only saying they are within their rights to do so if they don't want you in their party- regardless of how well you did. And this is something I'm all too familiar with myself as someone who plays SMN rather unconventionally.

[Ahalee]

What exactly is being mischaracterized here? You specifically and directly cited the TOS to say why you shouldn't have been kicked from a party. I can't think of any other context in which you could say that. If there is, well, that's on you for not being clear in your phrasing.

You're mischaracterizing the context of my post. Specifically the fact that I was wrongfully kicked after investing time in the party and being misled under false pretenses what expectations were. I was perfectly clear in what I said.



I'm not making any specific judgements about your performance, which is why I used the word "if." I wasn't there and I don't know how you did or what you did. But ultimately, if they weren't satisfied with what you were doing, they were entirely within the rules and their own rights to remove you. There are only very specific circumstances, such as the use of third party tools in making the decision, where it could potentially be a TOS violation.

I'm not spreading any rumors. ?????????????

You said if I was "bad enough to the human eye" which was insinuating that my performance was bad. If they weren't satisfied they were within their rights to not invite me to another run after the potential 2 runs. That would have been fair because they didn't imply I was entitled to that by inviting me and not specifying beforehand.


Key word here is "if." But as I said, unless they are breaking some other rule, people can kick others from their party for any reason.

They were breaking the in-game scams rule in the ToS.


There is no rumor here to spread. I'm going entirely off what you have told us. I'm not pre-judging you, or really forming any opinion about you whatsoever. I'm merely stating the facts: If someone kicks you form their party, they don't want to play with you. They are free to make that choice. I'm not trying to antagonize you, only provide the facts.

You were saying my performance was bad. Thus spreading a pre-existing rumor and attempting to antagonize.


Life sucks sometimes. I'm not saying you *deserved* to be kicked, I'm only saying they are within their rights to do so if they don't want you in their party- regardless of how well you did. And this is something I'm all too familiar with myself as someone who plays SMN rather unconventionally.

They are not within their rights to scam others.

[Ahalee]

Some of you are arguing, and others are posting their thoughts on the matter, and for the latter, I am grateful.

I'm not arguing. I got dragged into this topic out of nowhere.

[Alhanelem]

You said if I was "bad enough to the human eye" which was insinuating that my performance was bad.Again: I said IF your performance was bad. I didn't say that I knew it was. I wasn't "insinuating" anything.

As I said multiple times in the last post: You can be kicked for a party for any reason. It's only reportable if you can connect some sort of harassment or abuse to it. Even then, it generally takes a long term pattern of behavior before SE will act on it.

I'm genuinely sorry that this happened to you, but as far as I can tell, no rules were broken.

[Ahalee]

Again: I said IF your performance was bad. I didn't say that I knew it was. I wasn't "insinuating" anything.

As I said multiple times in the last post: You can be kicked for a party for any reason. It's only reportable if you can connect some sort of harassment or abuse to it. Even then, it generally takes a long term pattern of behavior before SE will act on it.

I'm genuinely sorry that this happened to you, but as far as I can tell, no rules were broken.

You were implying it by the context in which you used the phrase. I wasn't saying that if I was doing bad damage I should have stayed. You implied that I was. It is reportable if it is a scam. I'm sorry you aren't open minded enough to realize that rules could have been broken. Please read what others post before you respond. Thank you.

[Alhanelem]

You were implying it by the context in which you used the phrase.I implied nothing. You're reading too far into things.



It is reportable if it is a scam.You haven't provided any evidence of a scam. Kicking someone becuase they don't feel they were contributing doesn't constitute a scam, and that's all you've given us to go on.



I'm sorry you aren't open minded enough to realize that rules could have been broken.This isn't about being open or closed minded. You haven't provided any evidence that rules were broken. Aside from saying you were scammed, which you also haven't provided evidence of, I don't see any rule violations based on the information that has been provided up to this point.




Please read what others post before you respond. Thank you. I read everything that was posted before responding. Thank you.

Pro tip: Don't accuse people of not reading. It just makes you look bad. In fact, the more I reread everything the more sure I am of my position. One thing is clear, the attitude you're presenting here doesn't instill in me a lot of confidence in your side of the story. You're making a lot of assumptions while rudely accusing others of the same.

[Ahalee]

I implied nothing. You're reading too far into things.


You haven't provided any evidence of a scam. Kicking someone becuase they don't feel they were contributing doesn't constitute a scam, and that's all you've given us to go on.


This isn't about being open or closed minded. You haven't provided any evidence that rules were broken. Aside from saying you were scammed, which you also haven't provided evidence of, I don't see any rule violations based on the information that has been provided up to this point.



I read everything that was posted before responding. Thank you.

Pro tip: Don't accuse people of not reading. It just makes you look bad. In fact, the more I reread everything the more sure I am of my position. One thing is clear, the attitude you're presenting here doesn't instill in me a lot of confidence in your side of the story. You're making a lot of assumptions while rudely accusing others of the same.


It was clear as day what was being implied. All anyone had to do was read what you wrote. He didn't kick me because he didn't feel I was contributing. I was kicked because they wanted more profit from the whole thing and decided not to honor an implied agreement. That constitutes a scam.

Heres a pro tip: Maybe actually read what I wrote instead of trying to misrepresent things.

[Alhanelem]

It was clear as day what was being implied.I wasn't implying anything. You are making assumptions.



Heres a pro tip: Maybe actually read what I wrote instead of trying to misrepresent things. Now who's not reading?

You are assuming things that aren't there. I haven't misrepresented anything.

You are being consistently rude and toxic towards me despite me making it very clear I wasn't accusing you of anything nor had I made up my mind. I've done my very best to communicate my thoughts in a clear manner without any hidden context or meaning, but you keep assuming th

But I have made up my mind now. Your responses to my posts have been rude and disrespectful, assumed meanings that simply aren't there, intended or not, and you seem to be assuming that I'm out to get you or something which is simply not the case. Until you provide some evidence to support your position, I am now assuming there is more to the story and you probably did something to make them want to kick you- not performance, but behavior.

You are assuming the worst in others and reacting negatively to people who didn't even have anything to do with your situation.

[Ahalee]

I wasn't implying anything. You are making assumptions.

You were. You were implying that I was saying if my performance was bad that there still wasn't a problem with me joining anyway knowing that, which was never what I was saying at all. Don't misrepresent your past posts.



Now who's not reading?

You are assuming things that aren't there. I haven't misrepresented anything.

You are being consistently rude and toxic towards me despite me making it very clear I wasn't accusing you of anything nor had I made up my mind. I've done my very best to communicate my thoughts in a clear manner without any hidden context or meaning, but you keep assuming th

I haven't been rude but at the same time I'm not going to be friendly either to someone whos purposefully attacking me to score points with others.


But I have made up my mind now. Your responses to my posts have been rude and disrespectful, assumed meanings that simply aren't there, intended or not, and you seem to be assuming that I'm out to get you or something which is simply not the case. Until you provide some evidence to support your position, I am now assuming there is more to the story and you probably did something to make them want to kick you- not performance, but behavior.

You are assuming the worst in others and reacting negatively to people who didn't even have anything to do with your situation.

Yet more assuming from you. Big surprise. My responses haven't been disrespectful, you're just looking for attention and a way to stir the pot. Admit it. You're instigating things with people you don't even know and have no prior beef with. Good job!

[Rinuko]

Anyhow, so they technically didn't have the right to remove me under the ToS but I doubt that would be enforced. So instead of wasting my time calling a GM, I did the next best thing and alerted the playerbase to what amounts to a scam (although there are worse scams out there admittedly).

I scrolled to your comment. I’m still confused how getting removed from the party is against TOS, please explain your logic so we can understand . Kthx!

[Ahalee]

I scrolled to your comment. I’m still confused how getting removed from the party is against TOS, please explain your logic so we can understand . Kthx!

That quote was taken out of context. I never said it was. Don't stuff words in my mouth and actually read what I wrote. Thanks.

[Rinuko]

That quote was taken out of context. I never said it was. Don't stuff words in my mouth and actually read what I wrote. Thanks.

what is the full context?

[Ahalee]

what is the full context?

Re-read what I stated. I already stated the full context.

[Catmato]

Anyhow, so they technically didn't have the right to remove me under the ToS but I doubt that would be enforced.

What context are we missing that implies otherwise?

[Rinuko]

Re-read what I stated. I already stated the full context.

Link it please. I don’t see it.

[Ahalee]

So you’re just avoiding our questions, just take the L and leave the conversation.

I just answered the question. I think maybe you should stop trolling these forums. It's disrespectful to others.

[Rinuko]

I just answered the question. I think maybe you should stop trolling these forums. It's disrespectful to others.

You might want to follow your own advice. I’m outta here.

[Ahalee]

You might want to follow your own advice. I’m outta here.

I don't troll other people. Not sure why you bothered to try to get under my skin for so long honestly.

[Alhanelem]

My responses haven't been disrespectful,I think you really should review everything you've posted here to evaluate why someone might say you're being disrespectful.

[Alhanelem]

what is the full context?
They did LATER say that the reason for the TOS comment was because they felt they were being scammed. But there was no way for any of us to know that was what they meant prior to them mentioning that.

We can't read minds. We can only work with the words we're given.

[Ahalee]

I think you really should review everything you've posted here to evaluate why someone might say you're being disrespectful.

I have and I wasn't being disrespectful. I think you should re-read what I posted.


They did LATER say that the reason for the TOS comment was because they felt they were being scammed. But there was no way for any of us to know that was what they meant prior to them mentioning that.

We can't read minds. We can only work with the words we're given.

I had mentioned before that I wasn't referring to being kicked out of a party under any circumstances. I was just being less specific amount what exactly I meant by it. No one was asking anyone to read minds and it was clear I wasn't saying what you suggested I was.

[Bizarro]

I have to commend, and thank you for not continuing the shout drama lately. Outside of the other night, which as you well know I sided with you on, the channel has been back to merc shouts and the occasional ask for help/lfm.

Nothing and no one is ever going to convince you that you were wronged. Regardless of the logic that is used, or how many people tell you so. It is both sad and amazing, but obviously this is just you and your worldview /shrug.

Lets try this part one last time.

Sit down with me somewhere and let's go over sets to see where we can improve your output and survivability on DRG.

[Ahalee]

I have to commend, and thank you for not continuing the shout drama lately. Outside of the other night, which as you well know I sided with you on, the channel has been back to merc shouts and the occasional ask for help/lfm.

Nothing and no one is ever going to convince you that you were wronged. Regardless of the logic that is used, or how many people tell you so. It is both sad and amazing, but obviously this is just you and your worldview /shrug.

Lets try this part one last time.

Sit down with me somewhere and let's go over sets to see where we can improve your output and survivability on DRG.


So, I personally don't feel that I ever started any drama in the first place. Looking back was doing the PSA shouts to try to deter people from joining Euvedant's party a mistake? Yes they were but only from the standpoint of it was a massive waste of my time and I could have been getting stuff done I actually wanted to do instead of getting ticked off for hours and hours at all the trash being spewed at me and then being further demonized by a fringe minority of the population and having that thrown at me as well.

Would I do it again if I had to do it over again? No way. I would have just let Euvedant shout and eventually tank his rep on a more protracted timeframe but the thing is I was genuinely caught off guard and my first instinct when I'm hit with all that vitriol is to fight back and respond defensively which contributed to a chain reaction of awful for hours on end. Hindsight is 20/20 as they say and in hindsight there is no way I'd do it over again knowing how much time I was going to waste and how pissed off I'd be with nothing to show for it whatsoever.

I'm not sure if that was a typo but I'm already convinced I was wronged. I've been convinced since it happened but the funny thing about the entire situation is that the vast majority of the /yells were not even me bringing up the issue. They were others bringing it up and then trying to pin the whole rehashed discussion of it on me as if I had brought it back up when I was just responding defensively to others' attacks against me.

I got a lot of people that supported me but I'm not gonna throw names out there because it's disrespectful to them and they get attacked. Funny thing though is none of it was supporting me over the Euvedant thing, it was more about how I was being ganged up on and attacked as viciously as I was; and I didn't mind that because I wasn't even that mad about the thing with Euve/Lec and Odyssey in comparison to all the unrelated insults and attacks that people were coming at me with out of nowhere that had nothing to even do with FFXI at all.

As far as gearing Dragoon. I appreciate the offer. I have read the Here be DRGs guide and having looked up some gear sets but I have been working on COR AF. As far as Dragoon though I am planning to upgrade gear based on that guide but I am always open to suggestions, just not attacks and I always have been.

[Sp1cyryan]

I think you really should review everything you've posted here to evaluate why someone might say you're being disrespectful.

This whole thread needs a chant: "Attica! Attica! Attica!"

[Ahalee]

This whole thread needs a chant: "Attica! Attica! Attica!"

I don't get the reference.

[Rinuko]

What a shocker.

[Ahalee]

What a shocker.

I dont think most people would actually.

[Kalimairo]

Pretty sure xi was their highest grossing game pretty sure i read that too but it was overtaken by xiv in 2014 or 16 cant recall

[Alhanelem]

The deck is stacked in favor of MMOs as even a modestly successful one will earn more money over its lifetime than any non MMO will earn in sales. But at this point FFXIV has earned orders of magnitude more money than FFXI.

To be fair to the rest of the series, it would make more sense to look at sales. FFXI + all its expansions on all platforms (as each one is a sale) has probably outsold some of the earlier games but not more recent ones.

[Jordache]

. . .The best thing to do if you're not happy and not getting the enjoyment you feel you deserve for what you're spending, rather than spread gloom and doom on a discussion forum, is to just stop giving them money. Their response to declining player numbers seems to be to spend less accordingly, rather than make an effort to retain and recruit new players.

Err, respectively: no. The distinction between satisfaction over the long-term and the player's localized financial capacities are not actually correlated to actually accept the: speak with your money perspectives. Yes money speaks, but only at the point of purchase: the buy-in, because there is no buy-out. The buy-outs aren't tracked because people individual finances and life always take priority, otherwise no food scenario. People buy in or don't, and that's the real difficulty here: the costs are covered for creation at buy-in, but afterwards maintenance and up-keep of a franchise are not understood typically because they can run eternally, at like religious timescales here. FFXI is bought and paid for forever into the future, at like the Nikkei index trust fund management level. People base their pensions on FFXI's life-time intakes, to say FFXI's stock portfolio is self-funding is an understatement.

The response to declining player numbers is to figure out what the players are doing in real life and build accordingly so that they come back to teach, and learn, from SE as a whole conglomerate corporation though FFXI.

Over 20 years how many promotions did you get your company because of FFXI? SE wants to know so SE can invest! More real life value = more in game value!

[Immortal]

The deck is stacked in favor of MMOs as even a modestly successful one will earn more money over its lifetime than any non MMO will earn in sales. But at this point FFXIV has earned orders of magnitude more money than FFXI.

To be fair to the rest of the series, it would make more sense to look at sales. FFXI + all its expansions on all platforms (as each one is a sale) has probably outsold some of the earlier games but not more recent ones.

Source? Don't forget that the reason XIV outpaced XI was also due to the massive amount of money they poured into XIV. Of Course it would end up outpacing XI in sales and revenue when they poured all their resources into promoting and updating it. XI has never received even a fraction of that budget XIV has, even during its prime.

[Alhanelem]

Yes money speaks, but only at the point of purchaseEvery real person laying this game gives them money every month. Our money speaks long after the point of initial purchase.

Between the two MMOs, over two decades I've given SE thousands of dollars. multiply that by all the players who potentially become regulars- it's not an insignificant amount.

While the bots are a lot of free money for SE (and seemingly a reason they aren't in a big hurry to action them), so are the players.



Source? Don't forget that the reason XIV outpaced XI was also due to the massive amount of money they poured into XIV.No source, it's my guesstimation. Money invested is also not important for this argument. Consider: let's just say FFXI and FFXIV sold the exact same number of copies initially. As Dawntrail releases, assuming similar player retention (in reality there is a big difference here because FFXI has drastically slowed content release compared to FFXIV), at this point their sales are equal. Each future expansion FFXIV releases (we know there will be at least one more for sure since they've already planned that far ahead, even if they don't invest in FFXIV's staying power to the level that Blizzard has in WoW) puts its sales ahead.

Look, I know we all want to give FFXI every advantage because its our beloved game (Yes, mine too), but we need to be honest with ourselves.

Also: Investment isn't a guarantee of success. Online games as we know them today were in their relative infancy when FFXI debuted- there's no guarantee that simply giving FFXI the budget they gave FFXIV would have produced the same sales numbers. It could have done better, it could have done worse. There's really no way to tell. At the time FFXI has begun to lose its luster in the eyes of at least some of the playerbase, it was still getting regular new content and a new expansion was still yet on the way- but the decline was already happening and SoA didn't really stave it off that much. Audolin technically has an airship landing, marked on the map like any of the others but it was never utilized, and some of its features got downsized when it wasn't as successful as hoped. And it is probably for this reason they started winding things down the way they did.

[Dihlyte]

Pretty sure xi was their highest grossing game pretty sure i read that too but it was overtaken by xiv in 2014 or 16 cant recall

I see sentiments like this all the time, and honestly I'm curious where it is coming from.

I know a certain someone who responds often, and I would not even mind their input on this, as I'm genuinely curious where this information comes from.

>The idea that FFXIV is this massively success video game, and wildly popular.<

It simply isn't true. At least not to the degree people often seem to imply.

FFXIV, factually is barely outperforming FFXI.

FFXI was touted as the most profitable Final Fantasy, in 2012.
https://www.gamesradar.com/final-fantasy-xi-most-profitable-final-fantasy-ever/

FFXIV did not surpass FFXI until 2021. (Nearly not until 2022)
https://www.ign.com/articles/final-fantasy-14-24-million-players-most-profitable

FFXIV 1.0, that was so horribly bad, sold 600 thousand units.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Fantasy_XIV_(2010_video_game)#cite_note-AndriaSales-62

FFXIV 2.0 Only reportedly sold around 200k units on the PS3 in japan. (Not really comparable, but these are the only numbers provided.)
https://www.siliconera.com/ffxiv-a-realm-reborn-posts-underwhelming-ps4-retail-sales-in-japan/

The supposedly "wildly successful" Endwalker only sold 900k units. That is only 300k more than the "oh so horrible failed" version 1.0
https://us.millenium.gg/news/25562.html

No sites anywhere report FFXIV having massive numbers. Almost everything points to XIV having 1 million, or fewer players:

-Lalachievements (Via chocobo mount count)
529,000 players
https://lalachievements.com/rarity/mount/global/

-FFXIV Collect (Via their website overview)
780,000 players
https://ffxivcollect.com/faq

-FFXIV Reddit (Not even close to counting active subscribers, as this is entirely unrelated.) Still only reports:
1 million users
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/

-Steam charts (Again not really useful, but just another source of many.)
95,000 users max all time
https://steamcharts.com/app/39210


Absolutely nothing anywhere says or indicates FFXIV having a wildly populous active subscriber playerbase.

The only thing that even comes close, is SE reports having over 25, 28, 30 million "players" except this number to me, only represents how many people have tried, and quit FFXIV, which is not a number I would like to tout.

The only way this is relevant to FFXI, is I can only imagine if they spent half the money on XI, as they did XIV, how much more successful this game would be.

[Alhanelem]

I know a certain someone who responds often, and I would not even mind their input on this, as I'm genuinely curious where this information comes from.I don't have data handy but the statement you referred to has always been screaming to me "wishful thinking."

First you can't really compare an MMO to a non MMO here, because MMOs make money continuously as long as they exist. So we can certainly compare FFXI to FFXIV here. I do not have any numbers to back it up, full honesty, but loosely based on the estimates I've seen I think FFXIV has had enough more players over its lifespan to have overtaken FFXI by now (i.e. in half the time or better).

FFXIV is still expanding as well, there are new servers coming with Dawntrail. Again, I do not have numbers, but FFXI was only modestly successful among other MMOs of the time (i.e. everquest and WoW). I just do not see any evidence to support these "highest grossing" claims, unless you only compare to the single player games which is unfair comparison because the income from those stops after a period of time.



The only thing that even comes close, is SE reports having over 25, 28, 30 million "players" except this number to me, only represents how many people have tried, and quit FFXIV, which is not a number I would like to tout. you're correct here, they talk about the number of accounts, not just active users. For any MMO, not just FFXIV, active users (we'll say people who have played within a 30 day period) i'd estimate is somewhere between 10-20%, or between 3 and 6 mil of those 30+ million "players" on average. which seems reasonable given server capacities. if there were actually 30 million active users they'd need a lot more servers than they have now lol.

[Dihlyte]

if there were actually 30 million active users they'd need a lot more servers than they have now lol.

That is true, but to touch on your other statement, I was comparing XI to XIV.

The only statement that would be MMO to -notMMO- would be me quoting SE when they said FFXI was the most profitable Final Fantasy.

The only reason I stated that, was to show, it took from that time (2012) until 2021, nearly 2022, for XIV to surpass it.

Meaning, in my eyes, XIV is not crushing XI, let alone WoW as many like to believe.

It’s funny because even “Yoshida” said XIV will never come close to WoW.

The point here being, I just am curious where this idea comes from.

Sure “wishful thinking” but none of the numbers anywhere even come close.

I guess it’s just the lack of understanding, when SE reports those “total accounts registered” number and people just wanting to believe XIV is that popular.

I just struggle with the logic when all the facts say otherwise.

I guess it really doesn’t matter. I just find it personally, extremely odd behavior.

Although I suppose I can come off as odd, with my desire to create that mission guide.

[Jordache]

Every real person laying this game gives them money every month. Our money speaks long after the point of initial purchase.
Between the two MMOs, over two decades I've given SE thousands of dollars. multiply that by all the players who potentially become regulars- it's not an insignificant amount.
While the bots are a lot of free money for SE (and seemingly a reason they aren't in a big hurry to action them), so are the players.

It doesn't matter how much you give them over time: it matters in the upfront investment stages because that is the most vulnerable money because: when they set out to make the game they have to make sure that the company is able to get all of the licenses for patent technology that they want to make, otherwise they don't get to make the game they want to make, duh.

They money you give them after the point of purchase, the subscription just goes into the big pile they created from making and selling the game in the first place, the SeeD-round of investments.

[BobbinT]

No sites anywhere report FFXIV having massive numbers. Almost everything points to XIV having 1 million, or fewer players:

-Lalachievements (Via chocobo mount count)
529,000 players
https://lalachievements.com/rarity/mount/global/

-FFXIV Collect (Via their website overview)
780,000 players
https://ffxivcollect.com/faq


Don't think data from these sites are reliable, since in order to have the character recorded on those site, someone did have to put player names in search & initiate syncing with lodestone website. iirc somewhere in their respective discords already stated this.

example: here's a character from lodestone
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/792442281893822474/1240153783988912138/IMG_0121.png?ex=664586b7&is=66443537&hm=75dce70d9a41920ba6727ffde50ffd941cdeba3579cbf5c9beca99abb92e4b01&

& here's the result when trying to search back on lalachievement:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/792442281893822474/1240154562216726548/IMG_0122.png?ex=66458770&is=664435f0&hm=765df2b1bc45e4f3c72259df527c7c14aa6b0690d1e8b2171770239001d3ae9d&

Again on XIVCollect, this character needs to be added, which represents by the "Add" button circled here:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/792442281893822474/1240157958273372271/image.png?ex=66458a9a&is=6644391a&hm=1ad84b0cbf15546c83ea3b71689f3506acccd63f2c2d5a6dd3e0a39b813c4943&

And here's another already registered, shown by the "View" button instead:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/792442281893822474/1240159390125002813/image.png?ex=66458bef&is=66443a6f&hm=e8a547128303ede56b64e4e0e83ad57546825d4d2bd4c8d2667957c753441bf4&

[Immortal]

They cannibalized their own playerbase by flooding all their resources and budget into XIV and it being another final fantasy online game. Once it failed, they did it even more to revive it with ARR. If XI saw even a fraction of that budget, it would have been a lot better off that's for sure.

[Jordache]

I agree about the stocks. We shall see.

To clarify my post, my gripe is not with FFXI now.

I feel FFXI has done so many great things in the past 5 years. All the right things I would even say.
(Except the reduction of staff, and using FFXI's revenue for other titles. Along with the things I listed in my original post.)

In fact, this is why I would consider stopping my subscription from XI. Due how much of FFXI's profits are going to things that are not RPG's.

I do not wish to support a company that is pouring decades of revenue into titles that alienate their lifelong fanbase.

I get what you're saying: but they have to grow to do something else, even for the mental sanity of their employees. Plus, that's where new intellectual properties come from!

But yeah seriously, professionally, and personally: enough with the FF7 already, finish the trilogy, then forget the franchise exists. Stop giving people the option, the world will thank you for it.

[Alhanelem]

They cannibalized their own playerbase by flooding all their resources and budget into XIV and it being another final fantasy online game. Once it failed, they did it even more to revive it with ARR. If XI saw even a fraction of that budget, it would have been a lot better off that's for sure.
They put the effort into reviving it because it would have tarnished the Final Fantasy brand massively to just leave it a dead and unplayable game. And it's for this reason that they don't simply shut down FFXI (well, that and they still get money from it, but they don't seem to want to allow core FF titles to become inacessible, which is a small credit to them compared to some companies).