How can SE make the Redmage frontline job?

[hordecore]

give the redmages refresh + haste passive job trait works like aura easy answer

[Tamarsamar]

. . . oh, wait, you're serious, aren't you?

/sigh

Long story short, no.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Make them better frontline attackers is the simplest and most realistic way.

[Supersun]

Wow, years of discussion were rendered pointless by one sentence.

[Bigboy]

Jack of all trades. Master of none. You will not ever be as good of a melee, as a job that was specifically designed for it. Anyone who puts the same amount of effort into their job as you do will beat you. The game is designed that way. Get over it.

[Tamarsamar]

Jack of all trades. Master of none. You will not ever be as good of a melee, as a job that was specifically designed for it. Anyone who puts the same amount of effort into their job as you do will beat you. The game is designed that way. Get over it.

Nobody is contesting this. I start seeing problems, though, when White Mages start out-damaging us . . .

[Duelle]

Wow, years of discussion were rendered pointless by one sentence.I'd go with it, but I'm somewhat miffed at us getting a healer job trait we don't really need.

In all seriousness, though, Refresh and Haste have really turned into a thorn on RDM's side when it comes to accepted roles. Big, big problem.
Jack of all trades. Master of none. You will not ever be as good of a melee, as a job that was specifically designed for it. Anyone who puts the same amount of effort into their job as you do will beat you.A design philosophy that has been proven to fail unless your intention all along was to bait-and-switch the hybrids in question into healer roles. If anything, the developers need to get it through their heads that such a design model doesn't work in MMOs.

If you doubt my claim, ask yourself why so many people are intent on us getting Cure V.

[Bigboy]

Nobody is contesting this. I start seeing problems, though, when White Mages start out-damaging us . . .

They get a better WS than RDM. But to do that damage they have to sacrifice a lot more than a RDM does. Even with that, I am able to out-damage an equally geared WHM. They get a 6-hit, and you get a 5. It's not that outrageous.

[Bigboy]

A design philosophy that has been proven to fail unless your intention all along was to bait-and-switch the hybrids in question into healer roles. If anything, the developers need to get it through their heads that such a design model doesn't work in MMOs.

It is only considered a failure by people like yourself that don't understand proper game balancing. If you got your way, what would the purpose be to playing any other job? I can already solo HNMs, I can replace WHMs and BLMs in many situations, and you are upset because you don't get to take advantage of a Paladin hate tactic.

[Supersun]

...Look at the mods for Hexa Strike, now look at the mods for Evi

...yeah

Did I mention that clubs also have higher base damage not to mention they actually get good clubs unlike Rdm which has only gotten like 2 good daggers since CoP

Not to mention that it's REALLY easy to get a 26% haste with their cheap blessed set while we are still stuck in like 2005 with dusk.

I mean when we were 75 the only thing holding them back was their lack of accuracy. Now that abyssea is here their only weakness for meleeing has been abolished and competent Whms are able to compete with any non-empyrean job.

An equally geared Whm will curb stomp an equally geared Rdm (and a lot of other jobs actually) unless the Red Mage has CDC.


Did I mention Whm is also the ONLY job capable of healing at the moment?

[Duelle]

It is only considered a failure by people like yourself that don't understand proper game balancing. If you got your way, what would the purpose be to playing any other job?Weapon preference, gameplay preference, thematic reasons, aesthetics, etc. The argument is worn and overused. And has been debunked several times.

Of course, you seem to be under the impression that we want to be able to heal and nuke and support and enfeeble and melee well all at the same time. Far from the case, but don't let it stop you from thinking us the harbingers of the apocalypse.

you are upset because you don't get to take advantage of a Paladin hate tactic.What annoys me are the implications. We have shield mastery but abysmal shield skill, not to mention little to no hate tools of our own. Then the only announced change for this patch is a freaking healer-oriented trait despite all the other aspects and parts of our job that need to be looked at. Specially seeing how many ideas and discussions have taken place over the years. Between Escrime, Spellblade/Botta Majica, the En Garde variations, not to mention all those enspell adjustments, I thought there might be something worth using in there.

[Bigboy]

So unless a RDM puts effort into their gearing, like the WHM has to, they will lose? Think I said that. And if WHM is the only job capable of healing, that kinda necessitates the need for enhancing other healers, does it not?

You also act like dusk is expensive in comparison to blessed. Maybe that is a server thing for you, but that isn't the case on my server. I am still not seeing the deficiency. I have not been "curb stomped" by an optimally geared melee WHM yet. You might just need to change up your game.

[Bigboy]

Weapon preference, gameplay preference, thematic reasons, aesthetics, etc. The argument is worn and overused. And has been debunked several times.

Of course, you seem to be under the impression that we want to be able to heal and nuke and support and enfeeble and melee well all at the same time. Far from the case, but don't let it stop you from thinking us the harbingers of the apocalypse.
What annoys me are the implications. We have shield mastery but abysmal shield skill, not to mention little to no hate tools of our own. Then the only announced change for this patch is a freaking healer-oriented trait despite all the other aspects and parts of our job that need to be looked at. Specially seeing how many ideas and discussions have taken place over the years. Between Escrime, Spellblade/Botta Majica, the En Garde variations, not to mention all those enspell adjustments, I thought there might be something worth using in there.

Sorry dude, you want to play something that doesn't exist. You overstate my point. I don't think you harbringers of doom. I think you are just completely unaware of reality. You want something that the rest of the population doesn't. You want to be over powered. You don't think that is what you are asking for, but it is.

Here's an example of your logic. "WHM get's shield skill, and flash, along with big cures. They should get Defense Bonus instead of clear mind because they are already clearly superior tanks. If they didn't intend for them to be tanks, they wouldn't give them shield skill."

[Duelle]

You want something that the rest of the population doesn't.If THF somehow became an accepted healer in this game people that wanted quick groups and invites would just flock to it, and the populous would eventually pressure even the established players that like swinging daggers to shut up and heal. No different if the same happened to DRK or DRG. I understand this game has always been short on healers (after all, this is the game that turned Summoner into the joke that was /WHM due to people's desperation for someone to handle cures), but keeping RDM relevant only in that department for the most part is a very very bad thing when speaking of a class designed to be flexible and have multiple roles. Again, it's the hybrid bait-and-switch, and it gets tiresome to see it after a while.
You want to be over powered. You don't think that is what you are asking for, but it is.Only because you say so, huh? Because the ideas are all stand alone and would not be in conjunction with other adjustments to make melee RDM workable and balanced (without even killing the support/healer option that so many outside of our little forums seem to love). And because none of us here are flexible in terms of numbers and possible tweaks.

[Bigboy]

I don't think that just because I say it. I think that because you are asking for things that would make you overpowered. You keep saying there is a hybrid bait and switch. You were given cure spells so you could heal. What did you miss earlier in your life as a RDM that made you think this wouldn't always be the case? What did they suddenly do that makes the job not what it seemed?

I mean, you really can't have thought they wanted you to to be a tank. This sounds like you had unrealistic expectations, and now that you have finally realized the truth, you are upset. Nothing has changed. RDM is still a support class, like it's always been.

[Seriha]

Sorry, but if you're not being curb stomped by the WHM, the WHM isn't that well geared. Prior to Composure, WHMs had superior ACC through higher weapon skill rating (ATK, too... and I guess you can't discount Auspice's Zanshin for a secondary ACC). Their TPing equipment was more readily accessible and hits the Haste cap sooner (Both have to chase Goliard, but RDMs have to spend their ASA pants on Haste gear or pray for a good augment from the Saur ANNM). There are other inconveniences like needing HQ'd dusk (not cheap) or praying you had a speed belt for whatever reason. WHMs also put the K.Club to its best use, which obviously allows them to crank out 3k+ Hexas much more often. The WHM also doesn't have to trudge through trials and either hope they get lucky in WoE or con some people to outfit a melee RDM with an Almace. A simple junked drop from a commonly killed NM will get the WHM a good club for 85+. Both get the Haste spell. Both get some kind of additional damage through Enspells or Auspice's Enlight. Gratuitous use of Mystic Boon stomps the everloving crap out of Convert, further expanding WHM's MP utility as a hybrid DD while skirting past the popular TP feed argument used against RDMs in the past, again, thanks to Auspice. Frankly, people underestimate Misery mode in general. Sonic Boom? Why hello there Esuna. Bomb Toss? What's this Cura do... A RDM would have to sub DNC to even get close to that level of utility through Healing and Divine Waltz, and even then it's miles behind thanks to timers and TP dependency, which further diminishes their damage due to lost potential WS. The only thing WHMs lose to RDM on defensively is Phalanx, but that's probably a moot point now with Solace's cureskin.

So, can the overpowered nonsense. Damage might be the easiest way to sway people into acceptance, but a good utility hook can do the job, too. I won't argue with either angle, but SE persistently ignoring the issue for years is part of what got RDM into its current state of neglect and blandness. Whining counterpoints of "They took our job!" or "Why level anything else other than RDM?" are just big glowing signs saying, "I'm not really thinking too hard about this one..."

[Duelle]

You were given cure spells so you could heal. What did you miss earlier in your life as a RDM that made you think this wouldn't always be the case? What did they suddenly do that makes the job not what it seemed?There's a significant difference between having the option to cast cures and having the role of healer shoved down your throat. You can have a focus in melee with some off-healing capability. It's a matter of tweaking resources and modifiers, not to mention adding a mechanic or two to act as safeguards. It's not meant to replace anyone who is dedicated to cast heals, but to act as filler where appropriate. I wouldn't even be saying any of this if I had not seen it work before. The best part is that it does not need to be the only role available to RDM.

I mean, you really can't have thought they wanted you to to be a tank. This sounds like you had unrealistic expectations, and now that you have finally realized the truth, you are upset. Nothing has changed. RDM is still a support class, like it's always been.Personally, I have no interest in Red Mage tanking. I do, however, get irked by changes that make no sense. I also feel for those who enjoy tanking while on RDM but were nerfed out of it. You can't call a class versatile if it's versatility is either not accepted by the other players or not supported by the game itself.

Lastly, a generalist a support class does not make. They're just the poor sods that get stuck either healing or mezzing because they offer nothing else of worth to a group in the greater scheme of things. That's basically what those of the melee camp want to see change.

[ManaKing]

RDM/DRK FTW!!! So now that no one is taking me seriously, I have to say that RDM is still fun to play and DD/Support is all I do.

Off heal? Yes please.
Main heal? No thanks.
Buffs/Debuffs? All day!!!
Dark magic? Of course.
Melee? Who doesn't?

When I'm in smaller groups I tank by using enemity gear, hiting hard, and healing. I get less hate for healing now, but if i'm not being focused, I'm just going to turn last resort on and leave it on.

Fix enspells and I'll be happy without Cure V. Another RDM Buff/Debuff would be nice.

[Carth]

I can already solo HNMs
Your credibility ends here.

[Bigboy]

At level 90 there is a 6 skill point difference in the weapons. Mystic Boon is nice for getting MP if you don't mind falling behind in damage. That's one of those trade-offs I mentioned. If you think 3k+ hexastrikes are amazing, you aren't doing it right enough to really have this discussion though. If you have ever used a KC before, you would also know how it impacts WS damage. There is something about off handing one that seems to really lower it. You also have access to double attack gear a WHM doesn't have an infinitely more attack.

I mean, I am having trouble even explaining this because I had been assuming you already knew... You can reach haste cap pretty easily on RDM, and have more options for WS gear and pieces with other beneficial effects. There is also almost no evasion gear for a WHM.

So yeah, you are asking to be overpowered. I've given it alot of thought, you must have too, but just didn't do your research.

[Bigboy]

Your credibility ends here.

Just because you suck doesn't mean I do. I honestly feel like you need to explain yourself here before I report you for trolling.

[Carth]

Ow, that hurt, stung. I'm gonna go home and cry now.

Seriously though, you're making baseless assumptions. Even the BG forums believe RDM needs an update, now that's something to think about.

[Bigboy]

Ow, that hurt, stung. I'm gonna go home and cry now.

Seriously though, you're making baseless assumptions. Even the BG forums believe RDM needs an update, now that's something to think about.

EVEN the BG forums!?!? I didn't realize they weren't also full of all the same people complaining here. Things must have changed drastically since the 5 minutes ago when I last toggled tabs.

[Carth]

EVEN the BG forums!?!? I didn't realize they weren't also full of all the same people complaining here. Things must have changed drastically since the 5 minutes ago when I last toggled tabs.

You derped and missed the point. That's okay though, I forgive you.

I'll give you one guess why your argument falls apart at "solo HNMs".

[Bigboy]

You derped and missed the point. That's okay though, I forgive you.

I'll give you one guess why your argument falls apart at "solo HNMs".

Mostly because HNMs are a thing of the past. The point stands. I was giving examples of how RDM has been consistently doing things other jobs have been unable to do for years. That is still the case. If you have some other magical reason you have neglected to mention, despite all your posts, then now is the time to give it.

[Mirage]

Here's how you can make melee a frontline job without any help from SE!

/pcmd leave
/equip meleeset
/engage mob

[Carth]

Mostly because HNMs are a thing of the past. The point stands. I was giving examples of how RDM has been consistently doing things other jobs have been unable to do for years. That is still the case. If you have some other magical reason you have neglected to mention, despite all your posts, then now is the time to give it.
Admittedly a good answer, but not quite what I was looking for. The answer to what I was looking for is "It's solo". Soloing is often the brunt of the update naysayers when in fact plenty of jobs can solo as well, especially in this era of Abyssea. Soloing NMs is not unique to RDM.

To drive my point home however, no one, at least the people I've known for years, is asking for RDM to be overpowered. We can replace WHM, but we'll never be as good as WHM. We can replace BLM, but we'll never be as good as BLM. We however cannot replace a DD because they're just leagues better than us (theoretically. Gear can make lopsided arguments in terms of practicality). We're still good tanks vs low-man stuff, but the -Enmity healing will make it weaker.

The issue isn't that we can't melee (in fact we can). It's that the mage side is aggressively lop-sided compared to the melee side.

[Bigboy]

If we were called Spellswords, I would take your side, but we are Redmages. I figure that is the reasoning behind our design.

If I were to augment a RDM's melee skills though, I would have given us the highest parry in the game, being that we are made out to be Fencers. Probably would have dropped our shield skill completely too. In previous iterations they often show RDMs with staffs, so I would have given us a D skill there (as opposed to nothing). The FFXI makeup of a RDM is a little off from their previous iterations, but altogether similar. No RDM has ever been an amazing melee since FF1, when you could use some of the strongest weapons in the game. I would like to see a return of dual cast though, as that is a uniquely RDM talent, introduced in FF5.

[Seriha]

Oh snap, the "mage" line. Someone tell BLUs to go home.

[Duelle]

If we were called Spellswords, I would take your side, but we are Redmages. I figure that is the reasoning behind our design.Not really. Design philosophies shifted throughout the life of FFXI. If you look at the pre-TAU classes, they're all designed in a very open way. Even stat alocations for certain gear like AF reflect this. It's after TAU came out that the devs started saying "Ok, this is a new class, and we want it to do this, this and this, but not that or the other thing", and the class' design reflects it very well, from BLU all the way to SCH. PUP has been the outlier this whole time, getting an insane amount of developer attention despite being quite capable in terms of design, concept and what it brings to the table.

In previous iterations they often show RDMs with staffs, so I would have given us a D skill there (as opposed to nothing). The FFXI makeup of a RDM is a little off from their previous iterations, but altogether similar. No RDM has ever been an amazing melee since FF1, when you could use some of the strongest weapons in the game. I would like to see a return of dual cast though, as that is a uniquely RDM talent, introduced in FF5.It breaks even, actually. The most popular depiction of RDM I've seen to date, however, matches how I look at the class: a fencer with a rapier in one hand and magical energy glowing from the other. A testimony to our being right on the line that separates melee from mage.

Carth puts it well in saying our mage side far outweights the melee side at the moment, which is why I say what I say. To add, it is the fate of generalist classes in MMOs as a whole when left as they are. Yes, this thing RDM went through since the day Refresh was introduced HAS happened before.

[Frost]

One could argue the "Balance" you request could be achieved via your subjob choice.
No, read that again. It is in fact true.

RedMAGES are only really lopsided as a MAGE because YOU chose a MAGE sub. Everything you're asking for here could be attained by subbing War, Dark, or even Nin.

Is it optimal? No, not at all.

But a Melee Rdm hold their own compared to a 'normal' melee about as much as comparing a Rdm healer to Whm, or a Rdm nuker to Blm. Asking for a "Melee Update" is kind of a head scratcher, when you got so many better tools at your disposal, even to be the proverbial "DD" that you say is lacking. (I say that because you seem to forget "DD" stands for "Damage Dealer" and if you weren't a relevant "DD" then what do you call your Nukes?)

One could argue (very accurately) what you guys ask for is for your job to be Blu. At which point I would say, just level Blu. It literally does EVERYTHING a Rdm typically wants Rdm to be when they aren't satisfied with how Rdm is.

But the one thing that makes Rdm as a Rdm shine is it's greatest assets: Rdm's fast cast and enfeebling skill/spells. You can literally "Bore a mob to death" with DoT's; or Nukes trading off with any of the following: bind, break, sleep, sleep II, sleepga, stun, etc... And your position in parties is guaranteed for those same reasons, so how exactly are you deficient again? Because you can't poke shit with your sword? Really? You're one of the most vital jobs in the game, and you're irritated you're not more useful?

I agree with the general desires of both sides of this argument however. On the one side, Bigboy's completely right, strengthening anything on Rdm brings back an imbalance, yet everyone else is right the job has grown quite stale doing the same thing, and really could use an update other than just another tier of spells.

But....

Just because you don't play a certain way, doesn't mean that certain way doesn't doesn't exist. Changing your job too drastically can render other jobs obsolete. If the Rdm was a melee as well as healer, nuker and enfeebler, why invite anything else? Because everything else is still better? Then you're with the same problem before, no change. If you surpass an actual melee, you've removed them from the game. Make sense?

As with other threads, no one is really seeking balance so much as they are seeking absolute dominance, and Rdms are especially guilty of that.

[Supersun]

But a Melee Rdm hold their own compared to a 'normal' melee about as much as comparing a Rdm healer to Whm, or a Rdm nuker to Blm. Asking for a "Melee Update" is kind of a head scratcher, when you got so many better tools at your disposal.

By comparing a Rdm healer to a Whm you mean doesn't hold a candle and fails miserably.

Sure Rdms, are decent with nukes, but then again, our nukes are about the ONLY thing that has improved pushing past 75.

And isn't it natural for the "Jack of all trades" to ask for a buff where we are currently weakest (and by a good margin from the top as well)

Really, if you are saying that all we are asking for is SUPER SAIYAN DAMAGE HAX0RS you clearly haven't been following the discussion about HOW SE can make Rdm a frontline melee job.

Really, I've tested out more ways for Red Mage to melee then just someone that sees enspells and auto decides that /nin + OaX is the way to go (Not saying it isn't, /nin is certainly the best way atm), but the more time I spend meleeing on Red Mage the more and more I see the stupidest shit get in the way.

I mean what other job do you see practically being forced to main hand a weapon that SE has practically neglected for the job (Oh right, Drk, and there's a reason they are receiving the super update soon)

We aren't asking to become the super job that heals better then a white mage, nukes better then a black mage, DDs better then a warrior, and tanks better then a Nin/Mnk/Pld (with Ochain). We are just asking them to actually start making SENSE with the job. I mean, Shield Mastery. Native Aeolian Edge but not Sanguine Blade? Losing the ability to wear newer Doublets?

When you get down to it the choices the new SE devs have made pretty much indirectly kicked Rdm Melee in the balls whether physically or in spirit. They name a new melee trait Fencer and first give it to...the Axe wielding jobs, right because fencing with axes makes sense, but fear not next update...brd now gets it. BRD, a job that quite frankly melees about as effectively as us. Remind me what's the name of our JSE accessories and what weapon type we specialize in?

What's coming next update? The ability to augment certain Rare/Ex items, yay, too bad that it likely won't work on already augmented armor like the 3 add on expansion armors that Rdm practically needs to melee. You know what job really makes off like a bandit with augmenting Rare/Ex armors? Once again Brd, The ability to augment Kitty pants and likely Hetacomb armor is going to give it a huge advantage.

So, really, White Mage already curb stomps any non-CDC Red Mage, and as of next update any debate between Brd and Rdm will likely go out the window as well with Brds new augmented super powered Hetacomb gear.

I think it's well within our rights to ask for a melee update when Whms and Brds start out meleeing us.

[Doombringer]

i dunno man, i've been meleeing on rdm since this game came out and i can honestly say it's gotten steadily worse as time went by. (and that's WITH war/drk/nin/blu/pld for subs)

for a long time i felt like all i was really missing was a good ws when subbing nin or something to do with my left hand when subbing not nin, and that was "close enough" for me to be satisfied. sure i had hauberk envy, along with several other things, but i never expected to be "as good" just "within striking distance"

but the "rules" have kept changing and changing. and rdm has been drifting further and further from the job i was sold on all those years ago.

toa was when it really got bad. before that rdm melee was a debate. there might be one a-hole in a pt that would flip out but there'd be one or 2 others that saw things my way. plus back then ppl would invite an rdm AND a whm to the SAME pt.. i know, insane right?

if i wanted to be a whm i'd have chosen whm. i'll cure you if you're bleeding, i like having that in my back pocket JiC, but i refuse to sit in the corner and spam cure4 upon cure4 into infinity.

then spampage pts happened and my old friends "the whm" and "the tank" were gone, and i'm expected to solo heal 3-4 spamming dd's? pass, i was already 75 at this point, so i just solo'd most of my merits.

then the 2hander update happens and suddenly everybody without a 2handed weapon is gimp? guess who doesn't have a 2handed weapon? rdm... but then to make it even worse, they give thf dnc and blu duel wield, AND give warrior, bst and BARD fencer. leaving rdm at the very bottom melee tier, stuck using 1handed weapons without any type of native job trait to buff them. skill/trait wise rdm is now at about pld and whm lvl. oh but wait. pld and whm get there good ws' natively, so they can sub whatever they need to.

you could say rdm has evisceration natively, except rdm has exactly TWO daggers above lvl 75! what weapons do we get? swords.. what sword ws' do we get? death blossom.... yah.. death blossom is rdms best ws without subbing war/pld/blu/drk, or holding an almace. (blu... why blu? wtf?! that's just an insult.)

and while THIS has been happening, rdm's normal melee gear has gotten worse and worse relative to any respected dd, hell even next to a thf, a dancer, or even a bard...

lets just say that over the years i've been spending more and more time on my pld or warrior, as opposed to my rdm. my first 75 and the job i still consider my main, because i can't stand playing it in the state it's in. who knows, maybe once i finish my almace i'll get some of that spark back. but even if it ends up being everything i dream it will be, that still won't solve the problem with the job.


TL;DR? i don't expect rdm to be as good a tank or melee as a real tank or melee, but i also feel that it deserves to be close enough to warrant consideration, as opposed to ridicule. i am SO tired of watching rdm go steadily down the same boring, and imo, WRONG path. i refuse to play WHM-1

[Frost]

Well by that logic, Brds and Whms should get a variety of Tier IV nukes and Dark Magic skill!

Dude, if you try to make sense of SE, your head's going to explode. Go look up Ranger relic pants man, 10 Parry skill on a job that has no native parry skill....

RDM is on a lot of H2H weapons, Bows and Staves... As well as Possesses a native Divine skill, yet no native divine magic. Does that mean they should be Monk/Ranjer hybrids and have access to Banish I-IV?

Rdm ironically is the only job that's consistently made sense. You want "direction" and it's staring you right in the face. SE wants you to be a mage, a support mage, one that has nukes.

Reminds me of the "Priest in the Quicksand".

Priest sinking in quicksand and along comes an explorer.
The explorer asks "Do you need help?"
To which the priest responds, "No, the lord will save me."
The priest sinks further, and again he's visited, this time by an archaeologist.
The archaeologist asks as well, "Do you need help?"
And the priest again waves him off, "No I will be ok, the lord will save me."
Now the priest is up to his neck in quicksand, and a soldier wanders by.
The soldier drops to the ground and reaches out and tries to get the priest to take his hand.
"I'm ok," says the priest, "the good lord will save me."
Those were the last words of the priest as he sank into the quicksand and died.
Once in heaven he has the opportunity to speak with god, "Lord, why didn't you save me?"
To which god responds, "You kidding me? I sent you an explorer, an archaeologist, and a soldier..."

Point being, if you see SE neglecting your melee side, maybe you're up to your ears in quicksand.

Happy Easter.

[Doombringer]

frost.. you kinda just described sch.. "a support mage. one that has nukes" see the problem here? sch has better healing abilities, better nukes, and now thanks to atmas, nearly as good staying power. they are admittedly weaker enfeeblers, and weaker melees.. BUT.. enfeebs are mitigated nowadays since every nm is immune to most enfeebs, and every non nm lives about 10-15 seconds. (sch buffing abilities are debateable, they CAN aeo phalanx/haste/stoneskin/enspell with the right sub.. i'd say that's a strong point in there favor, but rdm can to if it subs sch, so this one sorta ends up a wash.)

so that leaves us with melee... so, we're here talkin' about melee.

[Supersun]

Because if SE though that Rdm melee should be abandoned completely they wouldn't have given us Composure and Enspell IIs. Mind you they weren't exactly implemented in the best ways but then again, that was a time when the majority of the player base though we were overpowered because we had the big 4 of healing, convert, refresh, haste, and cures.

Not to mention that 3 of those were originally added to help Rdm melee in the first place since Rdms kept running out of MP while meleeing since they couldn't rest, but were implemented poorly.

And while our healing was definitely overpowered during the ToA era and Rdm was pigeonholed into the healing role we certainly aren't in that spot anymore. The longevity that let us heal exclusively is now mostly subbable with the entire big 4 being available with /Rdm49 and Rdm healing is isn't even taken seriously anymore which is probably a good thing since every job will have Rdms healing power by 99 by just subbing the job.

So if we aren't allowed to melee where does that leave us? The white/black magic hybrid that uses them less effectively then sch? There's really only 2 ways that we could be different then Sch and SE has deemed BOTH of those ways as not correct.

We could enfeeble, but what good is being the master of enfeebling when everything worth enfeebling comes factory default immune? And anything else that we can enfeeble either dies too fast to matter or comes in so large of number other jobs out perform us just because they have AoE versions.

And if you say Enhancing then clearly YOU are the one not seeing SE's direction since 90% of our buffs are self target only. Really, the only exceptions are Protect and Shell (which have AoE versions we don't have), and Haste and Refresh (we do have more options with /sch but pretty much all of those options Sch/Rdm can use as well with way more charges then we have). How many does Whm have that can be used on the party, not even going to bother counting since it's way too many. Even Sch has been getting more buffs that can be used on the party, and what new enhancing spell did they happen to get...Regain...Yes, that's right, Scholar has received more melee buffs then Red Mage post 75 with their Regain spell and Occult Acumen (not like that one matters that much though due to staff switching, but it is still a melee buff none the less)

So If Sch is the job that can Heal/Nuke/and Enhance better then us (I'd give enhancing to them, they get mot of our enhancing spells with sub, plus more, like storm spells, and by 99 it'll be undebatable once they can /Rdm and get haste unless something else changes) where does that exactly leave us if we can't melee. The worthless enfeebling mage that is essentially only invited to Refresh II whore? We discuss ways to let Rdm melee because SE clearly DOESN'T have a direction for Rdm otherwise. I mean Shield Mastery?

[Daniel_Hatcher]

The fact is RDM is a MELEE Mage, that means we can do both.. Not as good as the natural jobs can IE: We can't heal as well as a WHM, nuke as well as a BLM or DD as well as a WAR which was what RDM was a combination of..... However, when you can not DD better than a WHM, BRD or BLM there is something seriously wrong, no matter how much anyone wants to say that it's acceptable it is NOT.

What makes it even worse is those 3 jobs have better DD equipment than even RDM who is supposed to be able to wear Cloth and Light Armour (of which we have not really gotten since lvl. 50)

[Daniel]

Not a jack of all trades anymore, give it up. Wanna be front line job level nin or mnk. Our mele is good enough to let us solo quickly with good multi-hit weapons, but they are never going to make us competitive with real DD. If they did what would be the point in playing anything else.

[Ophannus]

One question. What makes RDM more qualified to melee or be in the front lines than WHM or BRD? Sure SE calls RDM a hybrid but ignoring what SE says or RDM's past history in other FF games, what does RDM have that makes us potentially a front line job? B sword/Dagger skill? BRD has B skill in dagger too, whm has B in club but they don't complain about meleeing. RDM has enspells? Ok WHM has enlight with Auspice and BRD has minuets but they don't melee. The only melee mage in this game is BLU. RDM's specialty is a debuff/enhancing job that happens to get cure spells and nukes and a stunted rate. SE could have just given us debuffs and buffs only and made that our sole concentration. The cures and nukes we have are bare minimum meant to support main healers and main nukers. Leave the top tier nukes and heals to SCH and WHM since they're backline. I feel the only job qualified to get cure 5 next patch is SCH because they sacrifice melee ability for heightened magic whereas we technically have both. SCH has crap for melee capability so if anything they're more likely to get Cure 5 than us I feel only becuase they're a backline job.

Meleeing is a means to an end and RDM currently has none. BLU melees for TP to self SC. PLD melees to keep hate. RDM CAN melee but on major things we're talking about crappy damage. We can sub NIN but we lose Vorpal blade and have no native crit ws ourselves. The only way I see RDM being marketable as a DD is if they have Almace and a good DEX set, especially next Genkai which will probably have Gain-DEX. I've seen well equipped RDMs deal upwards of 2-3k Chant Du Cygnes in and outside Abyssea, really Almace is the way to go or at least the Badelaire+2.

[Duelle]

Asking for a "Melee Update" is kind of a head scratcher, when you got so many better tools at your disposal, even to be the proverbial "DD" that you say is lacking. (I say that because you seem to forget "DD" stands for "Damage Dealer" and if you weren't a relevant "DD" then what do you call your Nukes?)So we should forget we're melee mages and just settle for playing BLM -1? I think not. Our swords are there for a reason, soloing and decoration are not it.

One could argue (very accurately) what you guys ask for is for your job to be Blu. At which point I would say, just level Blu. It literally does EVERYTHING a Rdm typically wants Rdm to be when they aren't satisfied with how Rdm is.BLU wears pointy shoes and uses scimitars. I see no pimp hat or rapier on them. Next.

You're one of the most vital jobs in the game, and you're irritated you're not more useful?Sleep and crowd control is more BLM territory. Healing has been WHM territory, the TAU merit parties of 4 DD, RDM healer and bard puller notwithstanding. Our sole value since CoP has been refresh, haste and heals. At the cost of our class becoming something rather unpleasant. I'm surprised you're trying to blame us for getting sick of it, really.

Just because you don't play a certain way, doesn't mean that certain way doesn't doesn't exist. Changing your job too drastically can render other jobs obsolete. If the Rdm was a melee as well as healer, nuker and enfeebler, why invite anything else? Because everything else is still better? Then you're with the same problem before, no change. If you surpass an actual melee, you've removed them from the game. Make sense?I'm starting to get annoyed of this same tired attempt of an argument. To put it simply, it is quite possible and plausiuble to make a hybrid melee-capable in a way that balance is maintained and said melee role is widely accepted by other players. The scenario as it stands is not:

Party Leader: Ok so you're on RDM/<melee sub>.
RDM: Yeah, I'm geared for melee.
Party Leader: OK, I'll start looking for a healer.

And instead is:

Party Leader: You're on RDM/<melee sub>
RDM: Yeah, I'm geared for melee.
Party Leader: ROFL rdm isnt a dd. heal or gtfo.

Again, I wouldn't be a strong proponent of changes to make it happen had I not seen it work before. I know it can be done, and it's more a matter of the developers putting in the time to make it reality.

no one is really seeking balance so much as they are seeking absolute dominance, and Rdms are especially guilty of that.I'll ask that you please stop accusing the melee camp of something we're NOT asking for. I know those outside the class or the bandwagon jumpers that signed up for the quick invites and gravy train to 75 and merits are happy with RDM spamming cures and refresh, but some of us have wanted more out of this job for years.

One question. What makes RDM more qualified to melee or be in the front lines than WHM or BRD? Sure SE calls RDM a hybrid but ignoring what SE says or RDM's past history in other FF games, what does RDM have that makes us potentially a front line job? B sword/Dagger skill? BRD has B skill in dagger too, whm has B in club but they don't complain about meleeing. RDM has enspells? Ok WHM has enlight with Auspice and BRD has minuets but they don't melee. The only melee mage in this game is BLU. RDM's specialty is a debuff/enhancing job that happens to get cure spells and nukes and a stunted rate. SE could have just given us debuffs and buffs only and made that our sole concentration.Considering BLU as per FFXI was pulled out of the developers' collective arses, RDM has been the melee mage since FF1.

We're also way past the point where you can design classes to have singular purposes. Mezzing (AKA enfeebling) is too small a role to encompass a whole class. It worked in everquest because at the time the raids were of enough size where you could get away with it, but now it simply won't work (not to mention it'd make a class completely dull). It also does not comply with the trinity of tank, healer and dps.

[Neisan_Quetz]

One question. What makes RDM more qualified to melee or be in the front lines than WHM or BRD? Sure SE calls RDM a hybrid but ignoring what SE says or RDM's past history in other FF games, what does RDM have that makes us potentially a front line job? B sword/Dagger skill? BRD has B skill in dagger too, whm has B in club but they don't complain about meleeing. RDM has enspells? Ok WHM has enlight with Auspice and BRD has minuets but they don't melee. The only melee mage in this game is BLU. RDM's specialty is a debuff/enhancing job that happens to get cure spells and nukes and a stunted rate. SE could have just given us debuffs and buffs only and made that our sole concentration. The cures and nukes we have are bare minimum meant to support main healers and main nukers. Leave the top tier nukes and heals to SCH and WHM since they're backline. I feel the only job qualified to get cure 5 next patch is SCH because they sacrifice melee ability for heightened magic whereas we technically have both. SCH has crap for melee capability so if anything they're more likely to get Cure 5 than us I feel only becuase they're a backline job.

Meleeing is a means to an end and RDM currently has none. BLU melees for TP to self SC. PLD melees to keep hate. RDM CAN melee but on major things we're talking about crappy damage. We can sub NIN but we lose Vorpal blade and have no native crit ws ourselves. The only way I see RDM being marketable as a DD is if they have Almace and a good DEX set, especially next Genkai which will probably have Gain-DEX. I've seen well equipped RDMs deal upwards of 2-3k Chant Du Cygnes in and outside Abyssea, really Almace is the way to go or at least the Badelaire+2.

Except RDM was touted as a meleeing mage before BLU existed in FFXI (mostly used by the community as an extra healer due to convert/refresh, before both rdm was virtually useless as far as players were concerned and some people just melee'd Rdm/war...). As it stands inside or outside Abyssea Rdm isn't that useful for Healing, Nuking (debateable, use to be better than Blm due to amount of nukes but Blm has Celerity now, outside Sch is better), or Buffing (Whm is a far better enhancer than Rdm, Sch/Rdm will be as well with haste at 99, why do people keep saying we are good buffers when we're not really good buffers), That leaves debuffs and Melee/Go solo/lowman. At 99 we will have all of 3 unique debuffs (4 if you merit Blind 2) unless SE changes things, if you can't see why this is a problem idk what to say.

[Carth]

One could argue the "Balance" you request could be achieved via your subjob choice.
No, read that again. It is in fact true.

RedMAGES are only really lopsided as a MAGE because YOU chose a MAGE sub. Everything you're asking for here could be attained by subbing War, Dark, or even Nin.
Do you think we're idiots or something? There has been massive experimentation with all DD subs for years, even /PLD. /WAR gives strong DOT from Berserk and Aggressor, /DRK gives strong weapon skill damage with LR and SoulEater, /NIN gives... hell, just about everything except a strong WS (and Sanguine Blade is a strong WS. A lot of RDMs would be satisfied if this were native to the job).


One could argue (very accurately) what you guys ask for is for your job to be Blu. At which point I would say, just level Blu. It literally does EVERYTHING a Rdm typically wants Rdm to be when they aren't satisfied with how Rdm is.
I'll respect this portion of the post, but it's actually inaccurate in some way. The fundamental difference is that BLU is invited, most of the time, to deal damage. We don't want that. We just simply want our weakest side of the spectrum (Melee) to be given a boost to warrant the option of entering the party with the build of a DD. Ideally, we'd be fine if cast nukes (which was the intent, and is why we have fast cast), but it takes a toll on our MP (outside Abyssea), and such MP is more valued to cure members of the party and at times yourself. Also, no one skillchains systematically anymore so magic bursting is hardly an option.

The idea is to support the party with all options, which means to help the party do their respective jobs. We help the WHMs cure, help the BLMs nuke, and help the DDs kill the mob faster. If WHMs don't need help, we gear more for nuking and DD. If nuking is somehow not a viable option (Colibri for example), we gear more strongly for melee DD and use our MP to heal. If Melee isn't an option? We go backline.


If the Rdm was a melee as well as healer, nuker and enfeebler, why invite anything else? Because everything else is still better? Then you're with the same problem before, no change.
This is actually not a problem at all.


So If Sch is the job that can Heal/Nuke/and Enhance better then us (I'd give enhancing to them, they get mot of our enhancing spells with sub, plus more, like storm spells, and by 99 it'll be undebatable once they can /Rdm and get haste unless something else changes) where does that exactly leave us if we can't melee. The worthless enfeebling mage that is essentially only invited to Refresh II whore? We discuss ways to let Rdm melee because SE clearly DOESN'T have a direction for Rdm otherwise. I mean Shield Mastery?
I still see that as a troll update.


What makes it even worse is those 3 jobs have better DD equipment than even RDM who is supposed to be able to wear Cloth and Light Armour (of which we have not really gotten since lvl. 50)
Eh, we can make due with what we have. It's post 75 where things really started to trinkle down, though thankfully they released the cap off of enhancing magics, so our enspells (our main source of damage) is still viable. To be frank if Enspell IIs were calculated on cast, and worked on multiple hits, even if they didn't apply for the off-hand, they'd replace Tier I enspells without much debate.

And keep in mind, the idea is that our big damage comes from nukes.


Not a jack of all trades anymore, give it up. Wanna be front line job level nin or mnk. Our mele is good enough to let us solo quickly with good multi-hit weapons, but they are never going to make us competitive with real DD. If they did what would be the point in playing anything else.
I'm not sure why people continue to bring up this point.

[Duelle]

I'm not sure why people continue to bring up this point.It's typical of the "let's not make a hybrid acceptable in <insert role here>" crowd. I used to see that all the time in another game. And the answer was always the same: "People will play what they like. Those who like to tank or heal will still do so. So what's the big deal?"

[Seriha]

Frankly, I don't care if a BRD or WHM melees, either. Long as people are living and things aren't being overly taxed for the party, swing away if you're geared for it. That said, and I think where people get hung up on this at times, the "why" on why giving RDM more melee prowess despite its other quirks actually lies in the differentiation between other jobs. Sword and Dagger are only two of numerous weapon categories, which you can then further break down into weapon skills and skillchain possibilities. Jobs like SAM ooze STP to crank out the x-hit builds so they can WS more. DRKs get all their ATK and Crit bonuses to make each count all the much more. THFs up the damage efficiency of daggers with their JAs on top of various hate manipulation methods. Are these gross simplifications? Sure. It's a start, though, on why you can still pick up other jobs and have your perks.

Meanwhile, it's not too hard to actually look at RDM's stats and pick up the lopsidedness toward the mage end.

Mage Traits and Abilities:
Fast Cast V
Magic Attack Bonus III
Magic Burst Bonus
Clear Mind III
Chainspell
Convert
Saboteur
Refresh
Haste
Single Target Cures
Up to Tier IV Single Target Nukes (Incomplete at present, obviously)
9 Single Target Debuffs of varying tiers (Dia, Bio, Slow, Paralyze, Blind, Bind, Gravity, Addle, Sleep) and Diaga

Melee Traits and Abilities:
B Sword (EX restricted) and Dagger skill (No DE or SB)
Shield Mastery
Composure
Enspells

It's a big freakin "duh!" that the job has leaned toward the mage-y aspects. 2 of the melee "perks" didn't even exist until recently, and we all know how laughable Shield Mastery actually is as a melee buff as a job who will probably never have hate for long durations if meleeing against other competent players. I can't even bring myself to lump the T2 Enspells into things with their current broken state, either. We've all been there, done that, about how RDM's fallen off the face of the earth when it comes to daggers despite the peculiar degree of native access to most of its WS.

In its best TP gear, the job faces an ACC and ATK deficiency compared to others on top of its native shortcomings. There's no DA, TA, STP, ACC Bonus, ATK Bonus, Crit Rate Boosts, Counters, Berserk, Meditate, Samba, or whatever else that collectively gives other jobs their edge before even accounting their sub. Simply casting is very much detrimental to the concept of melee, and compared to BLU, RDM's speed and MP efficiency is rather lacking here. Simply telling people to migrate to BLU is not a fix for RDM, nor does it really address the looming issue of a 99 SCH/RDM basically being everything a RDM is today, but with T5 nukes and whatever other goodies SE gives them from 91-99.

Now, to placate balance whores, I'm actually okay with RDM lacking melee traits. However, this compromise is only okay if they get spells to emulate the effects. Would a self-cast 3m 10% ATK boost break the game? That'd be around 40 ATK outside of Abyssea. How about a DA% spell that scales based on your Enhancing Magic? We otherwise have to sub WAR while BLU has no such limitation as our fellow melee mages. Plus it'd be nice to move on past Joyeuse. There have been plenty of other ideas in the past, but the key lies into basically integrating RDM's future martial prowess into self-MP expenditures so it CAN'T be superman for long durations.

As is, there are various little annoying things that RDMs have wanted for years, but later showed up on other jobs. Diffusion/Accession was an AoE buff option that could've greatly increased our potential swing time, but instead went to BLU and SCH. Chain Affinity allowed for self-SCing, while now SCHs can pop a Stratagem to make a spell emulate a T1 WS. Damn near all of the freakin' DNC steps and flourishes would've made nice quick MP-lite abilities to throw down to both debuff and enhance, but frick all if you find a DNC that actually cares about that and just wants to herpderp Haste Samba and Saber Dance into eternity. It's almost like every good idea RDMs have clamored for have actually hit the game, just not the RDM's benefit. It's tiring. It's frustrating. It's bad enough SE gives us the trollface.jpg, but hell if I'll sit back and let fellow players perpetuate the WHM-wannabe role or prattle on about how we're just fine in everything, but somehow overpowered.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

One question. What makes RDM more qualified to melee or be in the front lines than WHM or BRD? Sure SE calls RDM a hybrid but ignoring what SE says or RDM's past history in other FF games, what does RDM have that makes us potentially a front line job? B sword/Dagger skill? BRD has B skill in dagger too, whm has B in club but they don't complain about meleeing. RDM has enspells? Ok WHM has enlight with Auspice and BRD has minuets but they don't melee. The only melee mage in this game is BLU. RDM's specialty is a debuff/enhancing job that happens to get cure spells and nukes and a stunted rate. SE could have just given us debuffs and buffs only and made that our sole concentration. The cures and nukes we have are bare minimum meant to support main healers and main nukers. Leave the top tier nukes and heals to SCH and WHM since they're backline. I feel the only job qualified to get cure 5 next patch is SCH because they sacrifice melee ability for heightened magic whereas we technically have both. SCH has crap for melee capability so if anything they're more likely to get Cure 5 than us I feel only becuase they're a backline job.

Meleeing is a means to an end and RDM currently has none. BLU melees for TP to self SC. PLD melees to keep hate. RDM CAN melee but on major things we're talking about crappy damage. We can sub NIN but we lose Vorpal blade and have no native crit ws ourselves. The only way I see RDM being marketable as a DD is if they have Almace and a good DEX set, especially next Genkai which will probably have Gain-DEX. I've seen well equipped RDMs deal upwards of 2-3k Chant Du Cygnes in and outside Abyssea, really Almace is the way to go or at least the Badelaire+2.

Completely wrong, even attempting to make out RDM is not a melee mage is rather dumb.

[Tamarsamar]

i dunno man, i've been meleeing on rdm since this game came out and i can honestly say it's gotten steadily worse as time went by. (and that's WITH war/drk/nin/blu/pld for subs)

for a long time i felt like all i was really missing was a good ws when subbing nin or something to do with my left hand when subbing not nin, and that was "close enough" for me to be satisfied. sure i had hauberk envy, along with several other things, but i never expected to be "as good" just "within striking distance"

but the "rules" have kept changing and changing. and rdm has been drifting further and further from the job i was sold on all those years ago.

toa was when it really got bad. before that rdm melee was a debate. there might be one a-hole in a pt that would flip out but there'd be one or 2 others that saw things my way. plus back then ppl would invite an rdm AND a whm to the SAME pt.. i know, insane right?

if i wanted to be a whm i'd have chosen whm. i'll cure you if you're bleeding, i like having that in my back pocket JiC, but i refuse to sit in the corner and spam cure4 upon cure4 into infinity.

then spampage pts happened and my old friends "the whm" and "the tank" were gone, and i'm expected to solo heal 3-4 spamming dd's? pass, i was already 75 at this point, so i just solo'd most of my merits.

then the 2hander update happens and suddenly everybody without a 2handed weapon is gimp? guess who doesn't have a 2handed weapon? rdm... but then to make it even worse, they give thf dnc and blu duel wield, AND give warrior, bst and BARD fencer. leaving rdm at the very bottom melee tier, stuck using 1handed weapons without any type of native job trait to buff them. skill/trait wise rdm is now at about pld and whm lvl. oh but wait. pld and whm get there good ws' natively, so they can sub whatever they need to.

you could say rdm has evisceration natively, except rdm has exactly TWO daggers above lvl 75! what weapons do we get? swords.. what sword ws' do we get? death blossom.... yah.. death blossom is rdms best ws without subbing war/pld/blu/drk, or holding an almace. (blu... why blu? wtf?! that's just an insult.)

and while THIS has been happening, rdm's normal melee gear has gotten worse and worse relative to any respected dd, hell even next to a thf, a dancer, or even a bard...

lets just say that over the years i've been spending more and more time on my pld or warrior, as opposed to my rdm. my first 75 and the job i still consider my main, because i can't stand playing it in the state it's in. who knows, maybe once i finish my almace i'll get some of that spark back. but even if it ends up being everything i dream it will be, that still won't solve the problem with the job.


TL;DR? i don't expect rdm to be as good a tank or melee as a real tank or melee, but i also feel that it deserves to be close enough to warrant consideration, as opposed to ridicule. i am SO tired of watching rdm go steadily down the same boring, and imo, WRONG path. i refuse to play WHM-1

THIS.

White Mages should out-heal us. They should not out-damage us! I don't care if we do less damage than half the jobs in the game, but when the only job we can almost maybe reliably out-damage is freaking Bard, then something's horribly screwed up.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Think you mean Blm Sch and Smn, Brd still has better WS gear than we do, and is on magian trials for dagger so access to both of the best daggers in the game (although Rudra's is quite weak if it doesn't crit iirc). Yeah it's probably that bad unless you have CDC.

[Tamarsamar]

Think you mean Blm Sch and Smn, Brd still has better WS gear than we do, and is on magian trials for dagger so access to both of the best daggers in the game (although Rudra's is quite weak if it doesn't crit iirc). Yeah it's probably that bad unless you have CDC.

Seriously?

And BLM, SCH, and SMN have mean Magical/Pet damage, so they also out-damage us in their own ways, as well.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Well was referring to melee wise, read your post wrong and thought it said Brd outmelee'd us.

[Bigboy]

So we should forget we're melee mages and just settle for playing BLM -1? I think not. Our swords are there for a reason, soloing and decoration are not it.
BLU wears pointy shoes and uses scimitars. I see no pimp hat or rapier on them. Next.
Sleep and crowd control is more BLM territory. Healing has been WHM territory, the TAU merit parties of 4 DD, RDM healer and bard puller notwithstanding. Our sole value since CoP has been refresh, haste and heals. At the cost of our class becoming something rather unpleasant. I'm surprised you're trying to blame us for getting sick of it, really.
I'm starting to get annoyed of this same tired attempt of an argument. To put it simply, it is quite possible and plausiuble to make a hybrid melee-capable in a way that balance is maintained and said melee role is widely accepted by other players. The scenario as it stands is not:

Party Leader: Ok so you're on RDM/<melee sub>.
RDM: Yeah, I'm geared for melee.
Party Leader: OK, I'll start looking for a healer.

And instead is:

Party Leader: You're on RDM/<melee sub>
RDM: Yeah, I'm geared for melee.
Party Leader: ROFL rdm isnt a dd. heal or gtfo.

Again, I wouldn't be a strong proponent of changes to make it happen had I not seen it work before. I know it can be done, and it's more a matter of the developers putting in the time to make it reality.
I'll ask that you please stop accusing the melee camp of something we're NOT asking for. I know those outside the class or the bandwagon jumpers that signed up for the quick invites and gravy train to 75 and merits are happy with RDM spamming cures and refresh, but some of us have wanted more out of this job for years.
Considering BLU as per FFXI was pulled out of the developers' collective arses, RDM has been the melee mage since FF1.

We're also way past the point where you can design classes to have singular purposes. Mezzing (AKA enfeebling) is too small a role to encompass a whole class. It worked in everquest because at the time the raids were of enough size where you could get away with it, but now it simply won't work (not to mention it'd make a class completely dull). It also does not comply with the trinity of tank, healer and dps.

When stuff like this gets said, it makes me image a BLM insisting on meleeing with a scythe.

[Frost]

Hmmm... I think I am going about this all wrong.

Try this on for size.

Melee Rdm = Person playing the role no one wants but the Melee Rdm.

Now before you go frothing at the mouth... Think about it what a 'melee Rdm' typically is. It's some person that wants to be up in AoE range with some kind of melee sub doing physical damage to a mob; while a group needs a healer, enfeebler, and/or nuker.

What groups don't need is some guy distracted by how big his Vorpal Blade is...

If you're going to support your party properly you are better doing so at a distance. If you're going to melee, you will be too distracted to support your party. You could be needed to cure someone and get AoE stunned. Or you could be Weaponskilling when people expect you to cure. Or you could be the complete opposite, and be curing, enfeebling, nuking so much you're not meleeing. AND if you're using a melee sub, you're cutting into the resources to do the expected roll for the group.

Any way you cut it, it's just impractical.

[Duelle]

When stuff like this gets said, it makes me image a BLM insisting on meleeing with a scythe.You're trying too hard.

Melee Rdm = Person playing the role no one wants but the Melee Rdm.Desperation for anyone that can cast cures is not really fault of our class. The changes either way have been way overdue.

Now before you go frothing at the mouth... Think about it what a 'melee Rdm' typically is. It's some person that wants to be up in AoE range with some kind of melee sub doing physical damage to a mob; while a group needs a healer, enfeebler, and/or nuker.And WHM, BRD/BLU and BLM exist to cover those gaps. You forget we have a sword to hit things with just as we have those cures and those nukes.

If you're going to support your party properly you are better doing so at a distance. If you're going to melee, you will be too distracted to support your party. You could be needed to cure someone and get AoE stunned. Or you could be Weaponskilling when people expect you to cure. Or you could be the complete opposite, and be curing, enfeebling, nuking so much you're not meleeing. AND if you're using a melee sub, you're cutting into the resources to do the expected roll for the group.Bad attempt at a guilt trip, but oh well. You're not going to be supporting if you're focusing on using your weapon and mixing it up with enfeebles and/or nukes. There's adjustment that are very plausible that would make such a thing work, you know. Not to mention that enfeebling can also be tied to a front-liner type of role through an adjustment or two.

You're attempting to play the "if all RDMs start meleeing no one will heal parties, nevermind that there's WHM, SMN and SCH to cover those roles as well" card. And as has been said earlier, those who like to heal will most likely continue doing so. Well, them and the bandwagon jumpers. I doubt 90% of Red Mages would swear off healing groups if front-lining suddenly became good enough to go mainstream as one of RDM's accepted available roles.

[Carth]

Hmmm... I think I am going about this all wrong.

Try this on for size.
You couldn't be any more off with that post. Not only is it a subjective assumption, but it implies all melee rdms are bad players.

From what I'm seeing, you're talking about the stigma, not the actual implementation of RDM melee. Fact is, melee is already being done in these current times, even in old-school 6-man parties.

It's not impractical at all.

[Seriha]

Melee Rdm = Person playing the role no one wants but the Melee Rdm.

Apparently someone wants it since you've got a number people talking about it, and have been for years. But again, the matter's a catch 22 since the role is intrinsically behind from the start in a community where only the best is desired at any given moment. Some then confuse that RDMs are seeking to be the best at everything. On the other hand, the rational ones merely want to be accepted no matter what they're in the mood for the moment they log on. Job Change is not, and never has been, a solution to RDM's issues.

But let's run with that quote for a minute. Let's say you had an old school EXP party that was already lined up with a PLD, BLM, WHM, RDM, and... say a WAR. Now, spare me the shitty line-up spiel, as you'd only prove my above statement, but as the 6th member, the best thing you have available is RDM. The community, on the whole, would rather not invite this second RDM and instead wait for another DD to turn up. It doesn't matter if this guy could be a total schlub relative to the best a RDM could've been geared, as simply being the job is a big warning sign when the desire to melee is expressed because apparently all melee RDMs suck and can't do anything right. Right? As is, this party has healing and tanking covered with a modest spread of damage so far. The other RDM could very much be okay with playing the backline, and in turn could Refresh everyone who needs it (aside from yourself) and split the Haste duty if the WHM's feeling lazy. You could possibly nuke here, but on the other end, you're restricting SC possibilities between the PLD and WAR, which may be grossly imbalanced in terms of TP gain. So, the BLM's missing out on potential MBs. You could help out here, and even MB yourself.

Unfortunately, this scenario basically went the way of the dodo with ToAU. And while Abyssea EXP is more lenient with group formations, you're going to ideally want one healer per party unless you happen to be able to clump a bunch of BLMs and SCHs together as a nuking unit. Personally, I wouldn't invite a RDM nuker for Abyssea stuff unless I know they have Beyond and other appropriate atmas, gear, and are /SCH. When I can dump 5k+ on a Blizz V from my BLM, why settle for 3300 from a RDM's Blizz IV (which the BLM can then do themselves and then some)? Without that, though, expect a modestly geared nuker to be more in the 1500-1800 range depending on their gear and buffs. Other DDs can manage that easily from WS alone while some would even compete during their TP phase at no MP cost, interruption risk, or recasts. Hell, this was an argument used against BLMs when it came to power meriting in the ToAU days, reflect and innate MDB of various ToAU mobs aside.

If we ever hit a point where a RDM of equal gear quality was beating a specialist at their game, then yeah, I'd share some concern. Not so much for the RDM, though, but the specialist. Did that player suck? Is there something that's easily repeated and otherwise insurmountable in the process? If that was actually happening now, maybe we could pick at the dynamic, but it's not. Even when things were closer between WHM and RDM as healers, only the full-on bandwagon retards accepted RDM as the superior option without hesitation, doubting something as simple as the WHM's ability to heal inifini-chain parties.

Put simply, we just want to play, not needlessly compete, not solo in a corner like we have some kind of fatal plague, and not get actively or passively berated the moment we express a difference in opinion or tactics. When the players can't allow that, though, it's up to the game mechanics to encourage more freedoms because we obviously can't trust ourselves to respect and trust strangers on the internet.

[Duelle]

Put simply, we just want to play, not needlessly compete, not solo in a corner like we have some kind of fatal plague, and not get actively or passively berated the moment we express a difference in opinion or tactics. When the players can't allow that, though, it's up to the game mechanics to encourage more freedoms because we obviously can't trust ourselves to respect and trust strangers on the internet.This, times infinity.

[Frost]

Sure, but how much the amount of melee damage you'd need to do to be "worthwhile" in any case would upset the balance of the job, putting your melee prowess on par with your nukes which would make you the end-all-be-all class. What you don't seem to grasp is that RDM is already on par DD wise if they were to fill in that slot. The damage potential from magic will always outweigh that from melee, and if melee started to become a legitimate source of damage, you'd end up with a dominant class that: Cures itself, Nukes, Imoblizes a mob by any of 5 ways, can buff itself fully to the point of taking tremendously less damage, debuff a mob to a crippled version of its former self, and now can melee a mob down? C'mon be realistic here. You're already needed in 90% of events, you're not hurting for invites, and if you really wanted to melee you got 10+ jobs to choose from that can do that, one as suggested before, does exactly what you want to do on Rdm sans the pimp hat, Blu.

The point I was trying to get across in my last point is basically this, if you got a Melee Rdm, who's curing the party? The Whm? If I got a Whm, then why would I need a Rdm? And vice-versa. The only thing in that equation is a wasted slot, the Melee Rdm; they're not doing the expected role of the job for team play, promoting them to liability. And again, if I wanted a Rdm to be DD, I'd prefere them on the back-line nuking, it's better DD output anyways.

Questions:

But now I want to ask. Why are you so attached to Rdm?
What do you have against doing "This" on another job?

Why are you so opposed to the Rdm that everyone else prefers and expects?

What is wrong with being the best Party Support Mob Debilitator in the game?

Do you realize your presence alone can up party damage 200% - 500%(roughly) while dropping the monster's ability to do damage fourfold? AND nuke to your heart's content at a level that equals a melee's Weaponskill damage every ten seconds or so?

Seriously, what if your actual problem with the status quo at them moment? I'd like to know the actual reason why you think your job is deficient. I've read why you think your melee is deficient, and I've read what improvements you want, but nothing on why you think the job is deficient.

Would you be ok with every melee getting Haste, Protect V, Shell V, Cures I - IV, All elemental Spells I - IV, Bind, Sleep, Break, Sleep II, Enspells, Dia's, Bio's, Paralyze II, Slow II, Blind, Stoneskin, Refresh II; AND... the ability to do all that with nearly infinite MP AND... Be able to cast all those spells in half the time AND... have their recasts reduced to half?

I mean... By your logic of "Past Final Fantasies"... The majority of them, every character had access to every spell, and in most cases every ability...

Rdm is awesome, I just wish you guys could see that.

[Duelle]

What you don't seem to grasp is that RDM is already on par DD wise if they were to fill in that slot. The damage potential from magic will always outweigh that from melee, and if melee started to become a legitimate source of damage, you'd end up with a dominant class that: Cures itself, Nukes, Imoblizes a mob by any of 5 ways, can buff itself fully to the point of taking tremendously less damage, debuff a mob to a crippled version of its former self, and now can melee a mob down?You keep forgetting that there's a plethora of safeguards that can be implemented to maintain balance. This ranges from placing restrictions when in melee through stances all the way to directly fiddling with proficiencies and stat boosts depending on what you're doing. Again, been there, seen it done, know it works.

You're already needed in 90% of events, you're not hurting for invites, and if you really wanted to melee you got 10+ jobs to choose from that can do that, one as suggested before, does exactly what you want to do on Rdm sans the pimp hat, Blu.Demand for RDM soared when we were one of the only two ways mages could regenerate MP. That, my friend, is the epitome of bad design, when one class' important is measured not in terms of role, but because of one spell.

The point I was trying to get across in my last point is basically this, if you got a Melee Rdm, who's curing the party? The Whm? If I got a Whm, then why would I need a Rdm? And vice-versa. The only thing in that equation is a wasted slot, the Melee Rdm; they're not doing the expected role of the job for team play, promoting them to liability. And again, if I wanted a Rdm to be DD, I'd prefere them on the back-line nuking, it's better DD output anyways.I'll agree the day the fencer motif and the sword disappears from RDM as a whole. We're nowhere near that point, thank god. What melee is at the moment is a piece of a larger puzzle that the devs have neglected because someone on the dev team feels we're happy just being heal and support bots. Yes, there is something very wrong when you have a class conceived as a melee mage or magic swordsman but used as something else. This is no different than a knight-in-shining-armor archetype being used exclusively to heal.

Why are you so opposed to the Rdm that everyone else prefers and expects?We've sacrificed enough to give ourselves an identity crisis over the years. No one can deny that, otherwise there would have never been all the back-and-forth between the backliners who were happy where the class is and those of us who were getting sick of seeing our swords collect dust.

PS: I'd like to ask you to kindly stop posting as if you were speaking for everyone who plays this game. There's been melee RDM discussions not only here, but amongst the JP players and all the fan forums before these official forums opened up, so there is some interest amongst some of our fellow players.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Except you're not needed in 90% of events at all, and Idk why you even think Rdm is even needed for half that much. It's less about melee Rdm being a wasted slot; as it stands by 99 Rdm itself will be a wasted slot outside of lowman, and that's questionable if Brds become in higher demand again (not that brd isn't good it's just not as badly wanted as it used to be).

[Carth]

I'm feeling in a bit of a cynical mood since I'm trying to solo on DRK (I should go level DNC :( ), so lets play the true or false game.


What you don't seem to grasp is that RDM is already on par DD wise if they were to fill in that slot. The damage potential from magic will always outweigh that from melee...
This almost made me giggle, thinking back in the ToAU days when BLMs literally had to solo and manaburn their way to 75 because they couldn't do shit in a ToAU party.

Anyways, false. Especially outside of Abyssea which many many players seem to neglect, where MP doesn't flow like water and you don't stampede your way through mobs due to atmas.


and if melee started to become a legitimate source of damage, you'd end up with a dominant class that: Cures itself, Nukes, Imoblizes a mob by any of 5 ways, can buff itself fully to the point of taking tremendously less damage, debuff a mob to a crippled version of its former self, and now can melee a mob down?
So... BLU?

Anyways, false. You seem to forget that we have giant limitations which is called MP, Gear, and Time. MP limits cures and nuking, Gear swapping is what allows up to Nuke highly (as well as melee decently), Debuffing a mob matters little unless it's Dia III (which helps everyone), and Immobilization is only an issue for soloing, not parties. Overall however, time is the biggest issue. People want things dealt the fastest way possible, and fact is a WHM, BLM/SCH, and any DD are still better than a RDM.

Taking "tremendously less damage" from buffs is also very melodramatic.


You're already needed in 90% of events
False.

you're not hurting for invites
True (finally)

and if you really wanted to melee you got 10+ jobs to choose from that can do that, one as suggested before, does exactly what you want to do on Rdm sans the pimp hat, Blu.
True, but I'll get to this at the end of the game.


The point I was trying to get across in my last point is basically this, if you got a Melee Rdm, who's curing the party? The Whm?
Both.


If I got a Whm, then why would I need a Rdm? And vice-versa.
Because the RDM brings something to the table that the WHM does not (Nukes and Melee). Same goes for WHM (Hellishly better healing and far better buffs)


The only thing in that equation is a wasted slot, the Melee Rdm; they're not doing the expected role of the job for team play, promoting them to liability. And again, if I wanted a Rdm to be DD, I'd prefere them on the back-line nuking, it's better DD output anyways.
We're back to the point where you're making the subjective assumption and speaking of stigma, not the actual implementation of RDM melee.

Also, no one says RDM cannot Melee and nuke at the same time. In fact, it's statistically better for them to do so.

Anyways, false.

4 Falses, 2 Truths. Not bad.


Questions:

But now I want to ask. Why are you so attached to Rdm?
What do you have against doing "This" on another job?
I play PLD, WAR, and BLU(OMG!) on the side, PLD more than anything else. That doesn't stop RDM from being my favorite and most played job, as well as the desire to pull it out of the Refresh/Haste/Cure botting, which finally went away when Abyssea came out, but instead pretty much placed us to where we originally stood when the game first came out (I'll give a hint, SE had to buff RDM), so the general population of RDMs is pretty much back to... oh look, Refresh/Haste/Cure botting.





Why are you so opposed to the Rdm that everyone else prefers and expects?

Who is "Everyone else"? Far as I know you don't even know how the job works.


What is wrong with being the best Party Support Mob Debilitator in the game?
A loaded question but I'll bite.

However I want you to explain how exactly are we the best "Party Support Mob Debilitator in the game".


Do you realize your presence alone can up party damage 200% - 500%(roughly) while dropping the monster's ability to do damage fourfold? AND nuke to your heart's content at a level that equals a melee's Weaponskill damage every ten seconds or so?
Whoa look at those numbers. I ain't touchin' that.



Seriously, what if your actual problem with the status quo at them moment? I'd like to know the actual reason why you think your job is deficient. I've read why you think your melee is deficient, and I've read what improvements you want, but nothing on why you think the job is deficient.
Go look on the RDM forums, not just here, but on ZAM as well.



Rdm is awesome, I just wish you guys could see that.
According to you, RDM is broken. It's as easy to state the good side and ignore the bad, just as easy it is to state the bad side instead of the good. However, what you speak of is the propoganda, and the "statements" that basically fills the RDM stigma ever since 2005. I mean, at least Bigboy isn't speaking out of his ass and using the generic statements (besides the whole 'solo HNMs' thing), but you don't even know any of the facts. I have to agree with Duelle when I have to ask you to stop speaking for everyone else. You already lost credibility when you made that last post.

[Supersun]

I just got off work so I might sound..."harsh." It's not intended.

Do you realize your presence alone can up party damage 200% - 500%(roughly) while dropping the monster's ability to do damage fourfold?

Do I even want to know how you got those numbers because NO buff can increase the parties damage by 500% except a brew. And reduce the monster's damage by 4x >.> Come on, be serious, if Sab Slow II "only" reduces the monster's attack speed by 70%-80% what other magical debuffs do we have that reduce the monsters ability to attack by that much? Did our Paralyze II receive a buff where it now stops 70%-80% as well. Or are you talking about the mighty Blind II that unless used with Saboteur is about as strong as the Ninja's version that you only need to gear accuracy for? Or are you talking about...oh...wait, that's all the debuffs we have that reduce a monsters damage unless you are referring to Silence and Addle which is kind of silly.

Of course this is one again kind of pointless considering that anything that we need to actually reduce the damage on because a Whm alone can't cover the damage 1) doesn't exist and 2) is immune to those enfeebles anyway. Even if there was such a monster it would probably just be more efficient to...invite another white mage. That "500%" damage increase? White Mages have it too. And whatever difference there is between Red Mages enfeebles and White Mages enfeebles which aren't that weaker is made up and more with white mages more then superior healing.


Would you be ok with every melee getting Haste, Protect V, Shell V, Cures I - IV, All elemental Spells I - IV, Bind, Sleep, Break, Sleep II, Enspells, Dia's, Bio's, Paralyze II, Slow II, Blind, Stoneskin, Refresh II; AND... the ability to do all that with nearly infinite MP AND... Be able to cast all those spells in half the time AND... have their recasts reduced to half?

You should really look at how many of those are going to be subbable at 99.

DD will be able to sub for Haste, Protect, Shell, Cures, Dias, Bios, Stoneskin, Refresh, and Convert
Oh look, your average DD can sub Red Mage at 99 and essentially be as good a Rdm as anything that was required out of him at the average colibri camp party. Sure the DDs can't nuke like a Red Mage but in 90% of the game outside abyssea nukes fail miserably compared to melee anyway. Certainly they won't have the skill to enfeeble, but they will kill stuff so fast it won't matter.

Now tack /Rdm onto Blm or Sch at 99
Why do we even exist anymore? The only things we have over them are our SLIGHTLY superior damage reduction enfeebles (They are already better at Crowd Control enfeebling), Refresh II and Enspells. So you are either inviting Rdm for something that most NMs are immune to, to be a Refresh II whore, or to melee. Choices Choices.



Questions:

But now I want to ask. Why are you so attached to Rdm?
What do you have against doing "This" on another job?

So why ARE you so attached to your idea of Red Mage being the way it is because if you actually look White Mage is clearly a better Party Support Mob Debilitator in the game...with Scholar coming in second...and Bard coming in 3rd...and Corsair maybe beating us for 4th.

It seems like YOU haven't realize that this isn't ToA anymore. Whatever Red Mage was in ToA doesn't exist anymore. A large majority of the people that bandwagoned to Rdm have already realized this and moved to better jobs to bandwagon on like White Mage. Now there's a job that's needed for 100% of all events in this game. Sure, we still have a pretty large chunk that are still sticking around. But if you expect things to change just from us leaving abyssea you are SORELY mistaken. Even outside of the land of MP and crits this isn't 75 anymore, other MP using jobs can maintain their MP just as good if not better then Rdm can now. To put it bluntly we don't HAVE a specialized role right now except for those rare occasions you need a refresh II bot. What you think we are is what White Mage and Scholar is. If we clearly don't have a specialized role, then we clearly aren't a specialist and a generalist asking for a weakness to be improved is well within his rights.

[Frost]

The 200% was a flipped bit in my brain, depending on existing Haste, you add 66% more damage to each party member if they're capped on Gear haste (and they should be...) that times a minimum of 3 melees = ~200%, but it's actually just 66% overall, more if there's March and/or sambas present.

The "dropping the monster's ability to do damage fourfold" comment is in reference to Para II, Slow II, Blind, & Buffs.

I'm not talking about subbing Rdm, I'm saying you'd be ok with every melee getting Haste, Protect V, Shell V, Cures I - IV, All elemental Spells I - IV, Bind, Sleep, Break, Sleep II, Enspells, Dia's, Bio's, Paralyze II, Slow II, Blind, Stoneskin, Refresh II; AND... the ability to do all that with nearly infinite MP AND... Be able to cast all those spells in half the time AND... have their recasts reduced to half?

And still have the ability to sub Nin?

You're ok with that?

Because you're basically asking for that in inverse... And yet you can't seem to find anything wrong with your request? Really? (Credit to Duelle however, for actually taking a logical step in the right direction with the comment about stances.)

And your only answers to why you think Rdm should have a stronger melee presence is that you have a sword skill, enspells, and a history of all of one game where Rdm was a solid melee?

Every job has a weapon or three. Just cause Smn and Blm have a high staff skill doesn't mean they should be whacking stuff with it. Hell, Black Mage has f'ing Scythe!

Smn have enspells too, does that mean they should be meleeing also? Hell, anything that subs rdm gets Enspells, does that mean Blm/Rdm or Sch/Rdm should melee?

And as pointed out, the only time RDM had a strong melee presence was in FF1. And currently the level at which you CAN melee (As well as nuke) matches that level offered in other Final Fantasy games.

Red Mages' position in a party is better served on the backline, where your strengths are. Not on the front line where you become a liability.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Hmmm... I think I am going about this all wrong.

Try this on for size.

Melee Rdm = Person playing the role no one wants but the Melee Rdm.

Now before you go frothing at the mouth... Think about it what a 'melee Rdm' typically is. It's some person that wants to be up in AoE range with some kind of melee sub doing physical damage to a mob; while a group needs a healer, enfeebler, and/or nuker.

What groups don't need is some guy distracted by how big his Vorpal Blade is...

If you're going to support your party properly you are better doing so at a distance. If you're going to melee, you will be too distracted to support your party. You could be needed to cure someone and get AoE stunned. Or you could be Weaponskilling when people expect you to cure. Or you could be the complete opposite, and be curing, enfeebling, nuking so much you're not meleeing. AND if you're using a melee sub, you're cutting into the resources to do the expected roll for the group.

Any way you cut it, it's just impractical.

Then get a WHM to do that, outside of enfeebling which is about 5 seconds worth of spells RDM is not the healer, or enhancer as proved by the lack of spells to do as much.

You thinking it is shows you do not know what a RDM is.

[Frost]

Then get a WHM to do that, outside of enfeebling which is about 5 seconds worth of spells RDM is not the healer, or enhancer as proved by the lack of spells to do as much.

You thinking it is shows you do not know what a RDM is.

First, you're out of your mind. If you think Rdm is not an enhancer? then what are Phalanx, Pro, Shell, Haste, etc?

Second, and this goes for all of you, If you even have time to melee on Rdm, you're a horrible Rdm...

[Daniel_Hatcher]

First, you're out of your mind. If you think Rdm is not an enhancer? then what are Phalanx, Pro, Shell, Haste, etc?

Second, and this goes for all of you, If you even have time to melee on Rdm, you're a horrible Rdm...

You're joking right? WHM does Protect and Shell better than us, Phalanx is self target so... that leaves Haste alone.

Would probably work at offending people if you're opinion on RDM meant anything, sadly it does not so... Troll harder.

[Bigboy]

You're joking right? WHM does Protect and Shell better than us, Phalanx is self target so... that leaves Haste alone.

Would probably work at offending people if you're opinion on RDM meant anything, sadly it does not so... Troll harder.

You make a valid point. RDM is a completely useless job. Apparently, in this thread we have learned that RDM does absolutely nothing that warrents their existence in a party. They can't heal worth a damn, they can't buff, somehow enfeebling is pointless, their nukes (despite allowing them to 2 shot mobs) aren't up to snuff, and the goal of posters in the thread are to bring up their melee skills, but not to the point of a "melee only" job (because we all know that would make them broken).

So, the job has no use in a party that someone else can't do better, and your goal is to become subpar by enhancing something that would make them still not as good as everyone else. Every time you guys say someone has no idea what it is to be a RDM and start posting this non-sense, it makes me wonder if you are just arguing from a point of ignorance. That's not to say you are stupid, but you just don't know what you are talking about, and so actual information looks foreign to you, and therefor wrong.

Do any of you have jobs other than RDM? Do you know what it's like to not be in the situation you are in? You talk like you've only leveled RDM and have never been another job watching a RDM play. You'd see that RDM is a very strong mage job, and that asking for enhancements to your melee would require equal enhancements to every melee, just to keep balance. You are not one of the 5 PURE melee DPS jobs. If you want to be viable for that spot, you play that job.

If you feel like you should be able to fill the spot of a DRK or BLU or NIN as a caster/melee hybrid, you are just not being realistic. Many of you say that you play RDM instead of these other jobs because you like the play style. If that were true, you wouldn't be trying to modify it so drastically.

[Rayik]

Just give RDM Vorpal Blade, and/or Sanguine Blade.. Bam. Frontline job.

[Bigboy]

Just give RDM Vorpal Blade, and/or Sanguine Blade.. Bam. Frontline job.

Actually... Yes. I can get behind this. I feel like that alone would mix things up a bit without breaking things.

[Neisan_Quetz]

(snipped for length) Red Mages' position in a party is better served on the backline, where your strengths are. Not on the front line where you become a liability.


So a Rdm's position is to be a -1 Sch at 99? Is that what you're saying?
Stop Bringing up Blm and scythe, Rdm still has better melee gear and Weaponskills than all 3 of Sch, Blm, and Smn. They are the only meleers in the game worst than us, and you're okay with that? Why, exactly?


You make a valid point. RDM is a completely useless job. Apparently, in this thread we have learned that RDM does absolutely nothing that warrents their existence in a party. They can't heal worth a damn, they can't buff, somehow enfeebling is pointless, their nukes (despite allowing them to 2 shot mobs) aren't up to snuff, and the goal of posters in the thread are to bring up their melee skills, but not to the point of a "melee only" job (because we all know that would make them broken).

So, the job has no use in a party that someone else can't do better, and your goal is to become subpar by enhancing something that would make them still not as good as everyone else. Every time you guys say someone has no idea what it is to be a RDM and start posting this non-sense, it makes me wonder if you are just arguing from a point of ignorance. That's not to say you are stupid, but you just don't know what you are talking about, and so actual information looks foreign to you, and therefor wrong.

Do any of you have jobs other than RDM? Do you know what it's like to not be in the situation you are in? You talk like you've only leveled RDM and have never been another job watching a RDM play. You'd see that RDM is a very strong mage job, and that asking for enhancements to your melee would require equal enhancements to every melee, just to keep balance. You are not one of the 5 PURE melee DPS jobs. If you want to be viable for that spot, you play that job.

If you feel like you should be able to fill the spot of a DRK or BLU or NIN as a caster/melee hybrid, you are just not being realistic. Many of you say that you play RDM instead of these other jobs because you like the play style. If that were true, you wouldn't be trying to modify it so drastically.


You're almost getting it now. If nothing is changed at 99 Rdm won't be desired in a party setting at all, and will be the Blm of the Tau era, wanted for all of 3 enfeebles no one else will be able to get/Accession if people even want them at all for those 3 enfeebles.

[Seriha]

Actually, we're here because WE don't like RDM's current playing style. Disliking it doesn't automatically translate into a hands in the air, "OMG WE'RE USELESS!" rant. You'll find I'm someone that doesn't just generically want Cure V to help our viability. I know RDM can handle the average abyssea fight, and I'm not above inviting another RDM or SCH for the harder things to help cure, but I'm also someone who has WHM leveled, so what's the point? I can switch and have one less mouth to feed.

Now, I know blabbing about what all I have leveled doesn't have a whole lot of meaning these days, but prior to the cap increase and Abyssea, I had 13 jobs at 75, everything else pretty much sub ready for 99 cap aside from PUP and MNK. RDM has never actually gotten a whole lot from HNMs or other endgame spheres, being absent from things like the ZNM sets, even. Even as far as Limbus' introduced, we would've liked to have been on Homam, but instead got the crap that is Nashira while BLU winds up on both sets. Nonetheless, my jobs were pretty decently geared. I did the SAM/DNC thing in campaign since it beat fully rebuffing every 2:30, easily capping EXP for fights well over a half hour if they managed to last that long. I did the BLM thing at Dynamis. I tanked on DRK for lowman stuff. Perhaps the only things I never really arsed myself to do were AV and PW, but that was a mix of the numbers game and me feeling like they were a complete waste of time to chase since, despite often being the LS RDM and all it's WHM-wannabe or Refresh whore glory, I would have NEVER been priority for things like the Sash or other useful items for the jobs that could've used them because we all know it's more efficient to not pander to a melee RDM in the game's current state. So screw them.

You're also talking to someone who didn't like the old solos. NMs should've picked up Bind resistance over time like they did Gravity. DoTs should've gradually gone shorter in duration. Zoned mobs should instantly heal to full regardless of DoTs. Take us off the Ceremonial Dagger. Actually do something about the BS that's pinning. I'd give all this "power" up in a heartbeat just so people couldn't try to dangle it over our heads, but the funny thing is a lot of it isn't exclusive to RDM. We already saw rage timers, flee speeds, outright resists, potent regens, and other counters to cripple this behavior. Of course, publicly declaring such has earned me the bile of those RDMs who only find these particular activities fun about the job. Didn't really matter they were circumventing Dev intent, they just wanted to do it, or merc themselves off to others for profit. Meanwhile, for every pro RDM who thought spending 4 hours to DoT Genbu to death was cool, I could've been in and out with my LS in 5 minutes. I have zero sympathy for those intentionally delay the play of others like that, and I'm sure we've all grumbled about similar in Abyssea... which is only worse since it's literally a time sensitive environment.

Otherwise, you talk about 2 shotting mobs with nukes. Sure, you can pump ice nukes to that level in Abyssea, but if you're going melee, odds are you'll be doing something like RR/GH/AoA. Your nukes will drop sharply then. You won't have the MP flow to sustain nuking every time the cooldown is up (Hell, we don't when we're Beyond/MM/Ultimate). You'll basically be a crappy mage if you still insist on that... which of course gets the RDM in trouble because their efficiency has dropped for whatever reason. Could be the sub, could be not swapping a staff because you wanna keep TP, could be your party members being retards, could be you're spread too thin because some nimrods out there believe that infinite MP tripe.

Put simply, people want efficiency. People want the path of least resistance that leads to the most plentiful results. RDM melee is the hardest aspect of the job to gear, and relative to nuking as a damage source, is basically inferior. Our buff side is grossly overstated. What most mean to say is Utsusemi makes us "gods" at times, which last I checked is a NIN ability. Our debuffs really aren't all that when they can land, and we all know WHM can brute force their way through a fight even without casting their T1 versions of Slow and Para (And to the Efficiency Police, enfeebling is A Bad Thing(tm) since the MNK can't counter as often!).

Back in the day, I used to say something like RDM is 1/9 WAR, 5/9 WHM, and 3/9 BLM. Nowadays, you could drop a point off WHM and add it to BLM, if only because of T4 nukes. We've obviously gotten no new cures or meaningful party buffs. Still, I'd like this ratio to eventually become more of 1/3rd each, but I'm not so dense as it to limit it purely to damage. Melee and Support aren't mutually exclusive roles. Would you let a RDM melee if it meant they could cast a 20% Haste instead of 15%? How about a 45% Slow instead of 35%? That's just the beginning kiddies, and it doesn't even demand 4k+ WS to work.

[Carth]

Actually... Yes. I can get behind this. I feel like that alone would mix things up a bit without breaking things.
Now I SWEAR I said just getting Sanguine Blade natively would satisfy a lot of people.

[Seriha]

It'd be a start, but hardly a solution to our collective ills (The Unlucky Seven of 1) Lack of Hybrid Gear, and/or active inventory space. 2) Lack of Hybrid Foods. 3) Casting burden. 4) Role Identity. 5) Lack of native melee traits. 6) Poor native weaponskill selection. 7) Bugs or unwanted "features".).

[Rayik]

Actually... Yes. I can get behind this. I feel like that alone would mix things up a bit without breaking things.

I know I come off as a little smug, but really, that's what I feel is missing for the most part when it comes to rdm melee. I hear CDC is great, but we should NOT have to do an Empyrean weapon trial to function normally, to just do what we should be able to in the first place. It's like telling BLM's they need an Empyrean just to Nuke.

And another thing, why the hell don't rdm get access to Magian daggers?

[Bigboy]

Now I SWEAR I said just getting Sanguine Blade natively would satisfy a lot of people.

I stopped reading your posts when it became obvious you weren't reading anyone else's. This one was a 1 liner though, so I read it before realizing it was you.

[Bigboy]

Put simply, people want efficiency. People want the path of least resistance that leads to the most plentiful results. RDM melee is the hardest aspect of the job to gear, and relative to nuking as a damage source, is basically inferior. Our buff side is grossly overstated. What most mean to say is Utsusemi makes us "gods" at times, which last I checked is a NIN ability. Our debuffs really aren't all that when they can land, and we all know WHM can brute force their way through a fight even without casting their T1 versions of Slow and Para (And to the Efficiency Police, enfeebling is A Bad Thing(tm) since the MNK can't counter as often!).

Back in the day, I used to say something like RDM is 1/9 WAR, 5/9 WHM, and 3/9 BLM. Nowadays, you could drop a point off WHM and add it to BLM, if only because of T4 nukes. We've obviously gotten no new cures or meaningful party buffs. Still, I'd like this ratio to eventually become more of 1/3rd each, but I'm not so dense as it to limit it purely to damage. Melee and Support aren't mutually exclusive roles. Would you let a RDM melee if it meant they could cast a 20% Haste instead of 15%? How about a 45% Slow instead of 35%? That's just the beginning kiddies, and it doesn't even demand 4k+ WS to work.

If your debuffs aren't impressive, you either suck, or are really hard to impress. My para II will leave a mob doing NOTHING for 10 seconds at a time, and sometimes longer. I don't have to explain maxed slow and blind as well, I assume.

As for meleeing being a component to your buffs and debuffs... The job is called Dancer. Go ahead and play that if it is the playstyle you are looking for out of your RDM.

[Carth]

I stopped reading your posts when it became obvious you weren't reading anyone else's. This one was a 1 liner though, so I read it before realizing it was you.

Aw come on, I thought we were friends. :(

We're actually on the same page for a lot of stuff.

[Seriha]

Let's not pretend that using Slow and Para is nothing compared to the T2s. Other jobs can cast them, and a 3 minute ability does not a master Enfeebler make. Did you know RDM has 22 potential debuffs to BLU's 62? Somethin' fishy there.


As for meleeing being a component to your buffs and debuffs... The job is called Dancer. Go ahead and play that if it is the playstyle you are looking for out of your RDM.

You probably ignored my earlier commentary about ideas RDMs proposed years ago actually hitting the game, but not for RDM (Accession/Diffusion/Steps). As is, RDMs and DNCs working together is pretty much impossible for the RDM (Samba/Enspell conflict). Simply telling someone to play another job is being the poster child of closed-minded. Believe it or not, it's possible for RDM to put its own unique spin to things. As is, BLU is a melee mage specializing in spike damage. RDM could be the DoT cousin. We're close, but still need some nudges.

[Bigboy]

Here's the thing that really cements the argument for not having RDM melee. If you are meleeing, you are not using your ACC/Potency staves. You are casting with a deficiency. You can always switch into a staff to cast whatever it is you need to cast, but you will wipe your TP in the process. If you wait til you are ready to WS so you can use your TP, you aren't fulfilling a useful role in the party. This is neglecting at best 50% of your responsibilities. In most cases, it is ignoring 100% of the reason you are even in the party. If you are being responsible with your casting, then you will constantly be dropping you TP and do horrible damage. If you think the only spells you are expected to cast are haste and refresh you are a horrible RDM, but keeping a cycle up would cause you to not be swinging for an unacceptable amount of the fight for a melee.

[Bigboy]

Simply telling someone to play another job is being the poster child of closed-minded.

No, it's called being a realist. Close minded is refusing to see a truth because it doesn't coincide with your established thought on a subject. If one medicine doesn't cure you, and a Doctor tells you that it's because frog piss doesn't actually reduce swelling, but there are numerous working options you could choose from, the Doctor isn't being close minded. I am getting really tired of being told I can't see or understand what people are telling me when they themselves are just projecting their own problems onto me.

You are close minded. You want RDM to be something it isn't. You want to drastically change the job. The job changes described already exist in other jobs. If those things are important to you, then play those jobs, quit trying to hammer this screw in.

[Rayik]

Here's the thing that really cements the argument for not having RDM melee. If you are meleeing, you are not using your ACC/Potency staves. You are casting with a deficiency. You can always switch into a staff to cast whatever it is you need to cast, but you will wipe your TP in the process. If you wait til you are ready to WS so you can use your TP, you aren't fulfilling a useful role in the party. This is neglecting at best 50% of your responsibilities. In most cases, it is ignoring 100% of the reason you are even in the party. If you are being responsible with your casting, then you will constantly be dropping you TP and do horrible damage. If you think the only spells you are expected to cast are haste and refresh you are a horrible RDM, but keeping a cycle up would cause you to not be swinging for an unacceptable amount of the fight for a melee.

The magian trial swords help with this a little bit, but then there's the thing of casing spells taking time away from melee, and vice versa. I have M.Acc and MAB swords, which cover he potency of my spells nicely, but just casting a spell means not swinging. Just helps reduce the TP loss.

[Rayik]

No, it's called being a realist. Close minded is refusing to see a truth because it doesn't coincide with your established thought on a subject. If one medicine doesn't cure you, and a Doctor tells you that it's because frog piss doesn't actually reduce swelling, but there are numerous working options you could choose from, the Doctor isn't being close minded. I am getting really tired of being told I can't see or understand what people are telling me when they themselves are just projecting their own problems onto me.

You are close minded. You want RDM to be something it isn't. You want to drastically change the job. The job changes described already exist in other jobs. If those things are important to you, then play those jobs, quit trying to hammer this screw in.

I can see both side of you guys' arguments, but if RDM were absolutely not meant to be melee, then why on earth do we have a B rating in swords and daggers, have trial swords, and access to a plethora of melee gear? If melee is "something the job isn't", then please explain this to me. Explain to me why we have a job ability, Composure, which gives +10 Accuracy to melee.

If we were having this discussion in the SMN or SCH forums you'd be winning. But this isn't SMN, SCH, or even BLM. This is RDM, what was at least at some point, intended to be a melee spellcaster.

[Seriha]

And in the past, I've even said I'd give up on the melee crusade if SE really took the enfeebling ball and ran with it, but they haven't. Lately we've been seeing all these juicy little stats wiggling their way into the game that we could manipulate, but all we got to speak of was Addle. I don't hate the spell, but it's as useful as Silence on a melee mob.

Something like Inhibit-Earth that'd lower a mob's Earth Attack and Defense would be peachy (and obviously spread to each element), for example. An enfeeble that messes with the fTP of mob WS is also an option. I don't really expect Amnesia, but temporarily blocking a random TP move or causing it to work against the mob could also be handy.



Anyway, I say someone's mind closed on this matter as they're basically arguing against the job concept if they're totally against melee. Dig a bit on POL, you'll see SE say that RDM's utilize their swords and magic to do their thing, and I wager that fuels Duelle's "Bait and Switch" argument. As a generalist, it's implied we can do anything passably. Realistically, we're never asked by others to dabble in that everything for reasons we've beaten to death in this thread and others, which lends itself to the thinking it's not actually passable. You can tell me to play another job, I can say I've been playing SCH since before its implementation. That's the problem. When an aspect of a job can only see the light of day when you're solo, there's a good chance it wasn't built right.

[Carth]

It'd be a start, but hardly a solution to our collective ills (The Unlucky Seven of 1) Lack of Hybrid Gear, and/or active inventory space. 2) Lack of Hybrid Foods. 3) Casting burden. 4) Role Identity. 5) Lack of native melee traits. 6) Poor native weaponskill selection. 7) Bugs or unwanted "features".).
I don't think lack of Hybrid Gear/Food is actually a problem. Lack of melee gear sure, but I don't think we should be able to full-time anything to work for all the roles needed.

Casting burden may or may not be an issue depending on what you're fighting. Ideally I doubt RDM would be meleeing any type of IT+ mobs at all. VT-wise things die too fast for anything outside of casting Dia on the mob to actually matter, which you don't need ele staves for. This falls in line with Role Identity but frankly that'll never change.

Lack of native melee traits? It's supposed to be Fast Cast, which allows more swinging time, then slapping on a DD subjob. M.Acc boost would be nice though. Poor WS selection can be easily changed by getting Sanguine Blade natively. Frankly it's a mystery why we're not on it.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I can see both side of you guys' arguments, but if RDM were absolutely not meant to be melee, then why on earth do we have a B rating in swords and daggers, have trial swords, and access to a plethora of melee gear? If melee is "something the job isn't", then please explain this to me. Explain to me why we have a job ability, Composure, which gives +10 Accuracy to melee.

If we were having this discussion in the SMN or SCH forums you'd be winning. But this isn't SMN, SCH, or even BLM. This is RDM, what was at least at some point, intended to be a melee spellcaster.

Quoted for truth, though the blind will still not see it.


And in the past, I've even said I'd give up on the melee crusade if SE really took the enfeebling ball and ran with it, but they haven't. Lately we've been seeing all these juicy little stats wiggling their way into the game that we could manipulate, but all we got to speak of was Addle. I don't hate the spell, but it's as useful as Silence on a melee mob.

And that WHM are getting in the next cap, so we once more have no enfeebles to be the "enfeebling" job.

As it stands RDM is in no shape or form unique, not even a little. RDM is a failure of a job that if they really have no interest of fixing, they should just remove.

If you really want to see how RDM should have been look to what they've made BLU recently. I mean BLU's can do anything and everything better than RDM, balanced I think not.

Better Healer's
Better DD's
Better Enfeebler's
Better Enhancer's
Better Nuker's

Sorry, if people think that's balanced a wall is waiting for your head to be slammed into, I get RDM is Jack of all traits, master of none.. But RDM isn't even average in any field let alone capable in them.

And this is the reason why, come next update, unless drastic change comes I will not be levelling RDM further.

[Supersun]

Here's the thing that really cements the argument for not having RDM melee. If you are meleeing, you are not using your ACC/Potency staves.

You are aware that those staves in NO way affect the potency of our enfeebles. All the staves do is make our enfeebles more accurate.

And really, if the enfeeble can actually land assuming the monster is not immune, a Rdm can probably land it virtually naked.

Even if for some reason you need additional accuracy to land a spell. It'll be just as effective to just swap some Mnd gear for Macc since you are probably casting in a near full potency set anyway, and unless losing an additional 2% on your slow is the difference between a clean utsu cast and an interrupt there should really be no practical difference between the 2.

So can we get over the 2004 argument that we rely on staves because last I checked I haven't actually "needed" a staff to land anything that I was going to melee on since like Robber Crabs in my 50s.

[Duelle]

Because you're basically asking for that in inverse... And yet you can't seem to find anything wrong with your request? Really? (Credit to Duelle however, for actually taking a logical step in the right direction with the comment about stances.)No step was taken, since it was there all along (I even gave a rough idea of how that would work in the other RDM melee thread). I've always been perfectly fine with restrictions and other things coming into play to maintain job balance while giving the melee camp what it wants. And steps taken to ensure the backrow RDMs remain virtually the same through similar restrictions and mechanics. I doubt any of us are asking for fencer-themed dual wield, sanguine blade, self-cast double attack and all that thinking that would not come as part of a larger set of changes.

You are aware that those staves in NO way affect the potency of our enfeebles. All the staves do is make our enfeebles more accurate.Indeed. There's also that wonderful thing called stat conversion when all else fails. Have MAcc be derived from a percentage of total melee Acc while in melee and you wouldn't need to worry about MAcc when front-lining. Could probably do something similar for nukes, but I haven't putzed around with the idea enough.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

You are aware that those staves in NO way affect the potency of our enfeebles. All the staves do is make our enfeebles more accurate.

And really, if the enfeeble can actually land assuming the monster is not immune, a Rdm can probably land it virtually naked.

Even if for some reason you need additional accuracy to land a spell. It'll be just as effective to just swap some Mnd gear for Macc since you are probably casting in a near full potency set anyway, and unless losing an additional 2% on your slow is the difference between a clean utsu cast and an interrupt there should really be no practical difference between the 2.

So can we get over the 2004 argument that we rely on staves because last I checked I haven't actually "needed" a staff to land anything that I was going to melee on since like Robber Crabs in my 50s.

And there is another fault of SE's, RDM has no native staff skill, they should therefore not wear Staves, but SE made the best magical damage/accuracy weapons a staff.

[Bigboy]

I can see both side of you guys' arguments, but if RDM were absolutely not meant to be melee, then why on earth do we have a B rating in swords and daggers, have trial swords, and access to a plethora of melee gear? If melee is "something the job isn't", then please explain this to me. Explain to me why we have a job ability, Composure, which gives +10 Accuracy to melee.

If we were having this discussion in the SMN or SCH forums you'd be winning. But this isn't SMN, SCH, or even BLM. This is RDM, what was at least at some point, intended to be a melee spellcaster.

WHM have always had Hexa and a B+ skill in club. Clearly they were always meant to be superior DPS. Now the reason this argument doesn't even come up in the other job boards you mentioned is because they all realize what they are good at. RDM have always had this deficiency. People have been trying to say it should be "Fixed" and SE tosses you a bone every now and then for melee, but the truth is, they only think you should melee when solo. Composure kind of highlights this. Increased recasts don't matter out of party, but if you are trying to heal, or stun, or keep a bunch of mobs slept, having all your recasts increased by 25% really sucks.

When we were given the option to melee, it was never intended to be great. It was intended to be an alternative to sleep nuking. RDM in FFXI is kinda viewed like a secret agent(Do the AF). Physically capable, but not a soldier.

Every single argument that they intended to make RDM a front line fighter are BS. The most obvious reason is because after 8 years, it still isn't.

[Neisan_Quetz]

After getting boon Whm can reasonably frontline melee. And as it stands, do better than a non CDC Rdm.

[Duelle]

When we were given the option to melee, it was never intended to be great. It was intended to be an alternative to sleep nuking. RDM in FFXI is kinda viewed like a secret agent(Do the AF). Physically capable, but not a soldier.I'm surprised you thought to bring up Rainemard. Rainemard was a guy that stuck his nose where it didn't belong and got him quartered and stuffed in a box. That AF quest line was less about Red Mage and more about Rainemard.

Since you brought up the super RDM (he doesn't spam cures, haste and refresh in campaign, by the way), there's a thread on the JP forums about how they want RDM to be more like Rainemard instead of, well, you know. So you could say part of the melee camp wants notable damage boosts to enspells.

And there is another fault of SE's, RDM has no native staff skill, they should therefore not wear Staves, but SE made the best magical damage/accuracy weapons a staff.Staves being a generic mage weapon is fine. The problem is more the fact that your spells are barely passable without them at certain levels, not to mention how magic accuracy is calculated overall. Hybrids tend to suffer because having two very different accuracy stats to take into account leads to watered down itemization or design-inherent gimpness.

Since someone decided to mention our meritable enfeebles as evidence to why we aren't meant to melee, I thought of something. If SE removed Blind II, Para II, Dia III, Bio III, and Phalanx II from meritable abilities, gave those to us baseline (quested like the teleport scrolls would be nice...) and (personal fantasy alert) condensed the poorly-thought out elemental affinities and filled those empty slots with new merits, would anyone here throw a fit? >.>

[Seriha]

Every single argument that they intended to make RDM a front line fighter are BS. The most obvious reason is because after 8 years, it still isn't.

Which is what gets people calling you closed off. Were this all so obvious, you shouldn't feel compelled to grace us with your presence and enlighten us on how we're all wrong for no other reason than you kind of think things are how they should be. Hypocrite much? What gives your opinion any more merit than our own?

The moment a MMO ceases to evolve, by nature, the very things within it, is the moment it dies. To many, RDM died long ago under the 75 cap. Neglecting it won't revive it. Playing another job won't make us feel like we didn't waste our time leveling, chasing gear, or putting up with all the petty player politics so readily displayed here. After all, everyone knows how to play RDM, but I'll be damned if you find many willing to do it. Even from the purely caster perspective, RDM's growth 76+ has been minimal, which has left us little to look forward to with these updates.

Is Thunder IV and Gain-STR/DEX/INT enough to tide you over from 91-99? Hint: Two of those could be considered meager melee buffs, and thus useless to the eyes of the rest of the FFXI populace. I know I'm not happy with this future. For all we know, 95 will bring another WS we can't use. There's no promise of new enfeebles. We definitely have no faith that our melee sets will catch up with others. And for those who are already leagues ahead of us now in their specific categories, they're only going to get better with their own new stuff.

So, in part, we're looking for drastic measures. To what end? Well, it could be melee, it could be enhancing, or it could be enfeebling. I feel like RDM's already too far behind the 8-ball to bump up party enhancement, and that's arguably the territory of BRD, COR, and SMN. Enfeebles will still be largely unwanted for casual play since mobs that die in 15-30s don't need a full spread cast on them (Nor would we have the time to unless we started getting dual debuffs or some Bad Breath equivalent). Auras have been one of the more fascinating possibilities, be they tied to buffs or debuffs, but this concept doesn't automatically encourage melee, but instead just changes where the RDM might stand in a fight. The closer we "have" to be to melees, the more incentive you could wiggle in for slapping on some melee gear and helping out there, too. We still have to get over the hurdle of damage relative to TP fed, though. And as I said, if you don't do that via damage, you absolutely have to do it through utility.

[Rayik]

WHM have always had Hexa and a B+ skill in club. Clearly they were always meant to be superior DPS.

There's a big difference between having a B rating in club with one decent ws, and having swords and daggers at just as high of a rating, with having access to melee-specific gear like Dusk, Scorpion's Harness, Brisk Mask, Tumbler Trunks, Rager's Ledelsen's, etc. Gee, why isn't WHM on that gear?

I see RDM's melee potential as something SE thought was a great idea 8 years ago, and pretty much forgot about, sort of like DRK's Elemental Magic; it's actually a higher rating than even SCH, but you don't see DRK's casting Fire III... All we're saying is to go back and do what RDM was made to do in the first place. Seriously, the RDM is a Fencer(Duelist, Estoquer, look them up), why the hell do other jobs get the Fencer ability and not the fencer job?


Have MAcc be derived from a percentage of total melee Acc while in melee and you wouldn't need to worry about MAcc when front-lining. Could probably do something similar for nukes, but I haven't putzed around with the idea enough.

I made a pair of Magian trial swords, M.Acc +15, MP +75 and MAB +10, INT +9 which are pretty close to at least NQ staff bonuses, but the biggest problem being the loss of subjob spells when subbing something to dual-wield with. If there's already someone else healing in the party, and my spells are landing okay, I can whip out my other MAB sword for a total of MAB +20, INT +18 on top of DMG 53 blades. But again, this is only when I'm not playing as WHM -1. Fortunately, I play with RL friends and family who don't buy into job pigeon-holing politics.

[Duelle]

I see RDM's melee potential as something SE thought was a great idea 8 years ago, and pretty much forgot about, sort of like DRK's Elemental Magic; it's actually a higher rating than even SCH, but you don't see DRK's casting Fire III... All we're saying is to go back and do what RDM was made to do in the first place. Seriously, the RDM is a Fencer(Duelist, Estoquer, look them up), why the hell do other jobs get the Fencer ability and not the fencer job?Funny thing is I thought maybe the disconnect was that the trait was called something else in Japanese. Turns out it's also called Fencer in the JP version (フェンサー), not something like Ittouryuu (一刀流) or anything like that.

I made a pair of Magian trial swords, M.Acc +15, MP +75 and MAB +10, INT +9 which are pretty close to at least NQ staff bonuses, but the biggest problem being the loss of subjob spells when subbing something to dual-wield with. If there's already someone else healing in the party, and my spells are landing okay, I can whip out my other MAB sword for a total of MAB +20, INT +18 on top of DMG 53 blades. But again, this is only when I'm not playing as WHM -1. Fortunately, I play with RL friends and family who don't buy into job pigeon-holing politics.Not to devalue the way you do things, because I think it is great to know and play with people who are open-minded, but all that does is circumvent the problem without actually fixing it.

Not to mention that decent melee numbers seem to rely quite a bit on dual wielding with either Double Attack proccing or a multi-hitter (hence why we're stuck with Khanda, Joyeuse and Justice Sword). The solution should also span across all levels, since the weirdness of lacking magic accuracy pops up at around the time those infernal staves enter the game: the early 50s. The big mistake with the level cap increases was that RDM goes from zero to hero in melee just because of CDC without the actual playstyle build-up that other classes experience.

[Rayik]

Not to devalue the way you do things, because I think it is great to know and play with people who are open-minded, but all that does is circumvent the problem without actually fixing it.

Not to mention that decent melee numbers seem to rely quite a bit on dual wielding with either Double Attack proccing or a multi-hitter (hence why we're stuck with Khanda, Joyeuse and Justice Sword). The solution should also span across all levels, since the weirdness of lacking magic accuracy pops up at around the time those infernal staves enter the game: the early 50s. The big mistake with the level cap increases was that RDM goes from zero to hero in melee just because of CDC without the actual playstyle build-up that other classes experience.

Yeah, I agree, but it's something at least. If it were an easy fix, there wouldn't be multiple threads 10+ pages long trying to fix it, lol. I made all those swords to try and play up the "melee/mage hybrid" idea. I could've just went with STR/ATT swords, I still might, but that alone might not be enough to make a difference. Should RDM ever get Sanguine Blade, a combined +20 MAB and +18 INT(2 swords) could be pretty nice, but I'm not holding my breath.

Honestly, if we could get a good sword ws, a lot of my complaints would be relieved. I'm happy with the damage I do with swords, I just would like a ws that actually packs a punch. We get Savage Blade, which is at least a step-up from Fast Blade(what we got at level 5), but still pales to ws's like Vorpal Blade and Sanguine. We get access to Evisceration, but lack any decent daggers, other than Blau Dolche(we still don't get Magian daggers).

What's good for the goose, is good for the gander. If BLU get the same sword ws's a WAR can get, then why not us? BLU already gets better damage spells, enhancing, etc... Toss us a freakin bone!

EDIT: After doing some searching, apparently we get access to Twilight Knife, so there's something at least.

[ManaKing]

I don't really understand why there is so much arguing going on.

All you have to do is look at RDM, SCH, and BLU and you should be able to realize what a RDM is.

The idea that a RDM is supposed to be a back liner was destroyed the second that SCH was made. SCH is the mage version of a RDM. SCH is awesome. It does all the things that people say that RDM should be doing in the back line and it has all the tools to do it effectively. They even have the staff proficiency to get the most out of the elemental staffs that people want RDM to be using. I hope that SCH gets all the buffs and updates that it should get in the future because I love playing in parties with them.

EMPHASIS ON WITH THEM, as in we are in the same party and we are not redundant. SCH takes care of the party and I take care of the SCH. I will refresh and haste them as often as needed and I will haste as many DDs as I can while up front dealing decent damage, debuffing if applicable, and MBing. I will help the SCH heal and if the SCH is ever in danger I will exhaust all of my resources trying to save them, even if it gets me killed in the process. They have Raise II and I don't. They are the better mage. I'll lose less XP than they would and the party won't slow down as much if i am weakened, because I can still buff.

Same thing if I'm in a party with a WHM. We share responsibilities and I do everything I can for them.


Now compare BLU to RDM. BLU > RDM in damage. RDM > BLU in defense. If you DUO a RDM with a BLU, the RDM is the tank and the BLU is the DD. The RDM does decent damage and supports the BLU. The BLU does the majority of the damage. When I duo with my friend I go as RDM/DRK or RDM/PLD and wear a shield. He goes as BLU/THF and uses TA to give me hate and he uses SA to deal extra damage. He deals more damage than I do in all cases, but one. I have access to better tank gear and have some shield skill. I tank better than he does because I'm a generalist and he's a damage specialist.

I'm an Elvaan RDM and he is a hume BLU. If we both do Vorpal Blade, I can out damage him if i pop Last Resort and Soul Eater as /DRK. So what I just said was that every 6 minutes, I can do 1 WS better than him by using all of my sub job abilities which are more sympathetic to multihit WSs than his JAs, which are not. Other than that, he out damages me. Even though I'm the one with superior fast cast, his blue magic is still a lot faster than my elemental magic. He can also use SA on his single hit physical blue magic every minute to deal significantly more damage than I could do with anything other than a lucky Vorpal Blade. He can also self skill chain. We generally fight mobs with mana, he self skill chains gravitation and we both use aspir moves and we both benefit from extra MP.

We both have debuffs. While Duoing, it's not who has better debuffs, it's that both of our debuffs can work at the same time that matters. When we are in a party it does matter. BLU still has it's unique debuffs that can stack with everyone else's debuffs, it still does a lot more damage, and it still can self skill chain. BLU > RDM in parties. There is very little that we can do that they cannot natively. There is nothing that a RDM can offer a party that already has a BLU and a SCH or another mage type job that is valued. BLU is an overpowered mage hybrid, but I don't see them breaking the game and everyone playing BLU.

Even with melee buffs, specialists should still out damage us, real mages should out heal and/or out nuke us, and tanks should hold hate better than we do. Unless we are going to get some significant love to enfeebling, we aren't the best at anything right now. We are generalist and we want to be generally proficient with everything, including melee.

TL; DR SCH is better than me on the back line, don't make me go back there unless we NEED a 2nd back line caster.

I don't think it is unreasonable for me to be able to contribute more melee damage, so long as I'm not able to out damage a BLU of equal gear and skill.

To achieve this, I personally only want Enspell IIs to not suck and possibly Fencer natively to RDM at some point. The way I would want Enspell IIs to be buffed is to be able to apply to multi-hits on the main hand ONLY. If we don't get Fencer, I want Enspell II damage to apply on WS hits as well. It works within our job parameters and gives us something we can do that no one else can do. It still shouldn't put us on par with actual damage specialists. If it does than maybe those classes should be re-evaluated as well.

[Supersun]

This is from the Job adjustment thread in the general forum. I'm replying to this here because this more responds to "how" a Rdm should recieve a melee buff instead of "why"


Bolded for emphasis. A nerf to switching roles on the fly, but maintaining access to a reasonable level of versatility while on the field (I'm open to discussion on what would be considered reasonable). And yes, that's a huge part of the class as is to remove while keeping the current curebot role. The bonus comes in making a second role available and relevant outside of soloing. It's a win-win.

I disagree that the solution to Rdm melee is to add some type of "stance" because simply when you get down to it I feel that ruins the only real distinction between Rdm and Blu and goes against what makes a the job a Rdm.

Most people might say that Blu is a melee mage or a something like that, but I disagree. I feel Blu is a job that has the ability perform any role, but has the catch of only being able to pick a few roles at a time with a severe 1 min cooldown if it needs to change preventing it from changing on the fly. Obviously Blu won't outperform a specialist, but it can perform just about any role to be the next best thing.

Rdm on the other hand I feel is the job that is competent at everything at the same time. We too also have the ability perform every role, but we can perform every role at the same time. Now you might say this sounds broken, but the difference is that we don't have as much power as a Blu's specific role that he picks. Blu is the specialist-1 while Rdm is the generalist.

That's not to say Rdm doesn't have its limitations. MP, Time, and Inventory can all be used to prevent Rdm from becoming the god mage just like MP, points, and slots, prevent Blu from doing so. I don't feel that a stance type JA fits thematically into how Rdm should be balanced.

Now I know all too well that the above isn't exactly how the game is right now, but it's more of an ideal of what I think the original intentions were behind the jobs. Not to say there aren't other ideals that fit at well, but any ideal that either steps on Schs or Blus toes probably goes against the intention of the developers.

[Duelle]

I disagree that the solution to Rdm melee is to add some type of "stance" because simply when you get down to it I feel that ruins the only real distinction between Rdm and Blu and goes against what makes a the job a Rdm.At the same time, a job that has access to everything at the same time is a nightmare to balance. We would in part not be in this pickle if gear-swapping was prohibited mid-combat because it is a valid balance point to concider. You buff melee leaving everything else intact and you get guys who are doing good melee numbers capable of switching to a full MAB set to cast spells and then switch to full cure potency gear for cures and then switch to enfeebling gear to cast enfeebles. I have a feeling this is the scenario the balance mongers that are against RDM melee are keeping in mind.

That's part of why I mentioned "a reasonable amount of versatility". Kind of like the "melee stance" raising sword skill to A-, tossing in some melee traits and maybe some job abilities that emphasize the theme of melee enhanced by magic and being limited to Tier III nukes and cures at lv90 (this is just an example). At least as I see it, that is a lot easier to balance because you know where the weaknesses are and a job following such a design isn't going to solo HNMs anytime soon.

Admitedly, I am of the school of thought that pure generalists simply do not work in MMOs. RDM and to a lesser extent a class in the game that shall not be named taught me that (both of which are parallels of each other). BLU functions well because it has limitations in place (a lot of which prevented it from getting pigeonholed into healing despite being quite capable at it). SCH has limitations in place as well. Both jobs are considered versatile. I'm simply suggesting that we follow that trend in hopes of at least killing the "RDM isn't a dd" thing. At the most we might end up with a real working melee model while keeping the option to heal/support, thus making both camps happy instead of this hooplah we see on a daily basis.

[Supersun]

--Edit: Holy Wall o Text Batman, be prepared for a really long read D:--

I disagree that a generalist hybrid can't work. That being said you aren't going to fix it by random balance. You are going to have to understand a little of why hybrids haven't worked so far. The main problem I believe actually stems from that we are looking at MMOs balance in the wrong way, mainly the Healer, Tank, DD, trinity.

What are roles really? Roles really don't represent anything else other then different ways to reach an end. Instead of looking at what role a job specializes or generalizes in you should look how much offense and defense it contributes. Because if XI has taught me anything when there's enough competition people will try to accomplish anything with the least amount of defense, and it makes sense economically, this lets you do things with faster and/or with fewer people letting you get the items you want faster.

Now there is some truth behind the DD, tank, healer trinity, because the tank and the healer create an effective synergy meaning that 2 jobs create more defensive power then 2 jobs normally make. In most games healers cures don't generally vary depending on the target tremendously. Now let's say you are in a situation where your healer isn't enough to survive against a monster's attacks and you have 2 options for another member, either another healer or a tank. Let's say the tank takes half the damage a normal person would take. If you invite the healer you double your healing power which might be enough to survive, but if you invite the tank since he takes half damage and your cures stay consistent you are effectively increasing your defense by 4x. Enfeebling works the same way. If you in addition to the tank and the healer invited an enfeebler who had the potential of halving the monster's attacks then the synergy between the 3 jobs is not 8x normal. Those 3 jobs can accomplish what it would take 8 healers to do normally.

That being said the issue with Red Mage is that it's terrible at synergizing with certain other jobs because a lot of their buffs/debuffs don't stack with other jobs. For example White Mage, your traditional healer, syngergizes terribly with Red Mage, especially in a game state where enfeebles are worthless. The only thing Red Mage offers to the White Mage that synergizes is Refresh II and even that doesn't synergize that well since they can sub for their own refresh. Sure they can back up cure and help haste the DDs but there's no synergy with a white mage doing that (unless your White Mage has to rest a LOT). You would probably be better off inviting a Bard with a healing sub if you wanted that. The Bards ballad stacks with the White Mages Refresh and the Bard syngergizes with the White Mages offensive buffs as well (Haste + March). THe White Mage supplies nothing I can actually think of off the top of my head that synergizess with the Red Mage. They use the same haste so they don't stack, they use the same gain spells so they don't stack, ect, ect...

Not to mention that this is on top of the fact that that people are trying to invite the minimum amount of defense to get the job done and people rarely need anything more then a White Mage anyway. The Red Mage really only has one thing to contribute the offense that synergizes that the White Mage doesn't have, Dia III, and with Dia III not being that significantly stronger then the White Mages option, Dia II, and in a game state where most heavy DDs can pretty much cap attack with just their food and their own buffs that leaves Rdm in a bad predicament.

This is why I say that Red Mages only real job when we leave abyssea will likely be being invited to a Black Mage party to refresh the Black Mages because certainly adding 1 Red Mage to a party of 5 Black Mages will syngergize more damage then adding a 6th Black Mage, but then again, so will Bard, Corsair, and Summoner and most of those will do a better job (especially Corsair).

Not to mention this is on top of the fact that specialist jobs already tend to synergize better with each other then generalists do due to economies of scale generally favoring the specialists. There has to be some way to compensate for this on the generalist end and frankly one of the easiest ways is to simply create artificial synergy. If a specialist is 100% of a job (for this example, in reality they tend to have other aspects as well). The improper way to create a hybrid would be a 50% 50% split between 2 roles. Inviting 2 specialists for those roles generally create more synergy then inviting 2 of the hybrids. Like I said one easy way of fixing this is to just create artificial synergy. If instead you made the hybrids 70% and 70% then inviting 2 hybrids would "artificially" create synergy by giving rhe party 140% worth from 2 people. The problem with this though is that people will still invite what is better and either the hybrids artificial synergy will surpass the specialists or they will still be weaker. Mind you that there is an area of grey that makes it difficult to tell which one is actually ahead, but getting anywhere near that area is already difficult.

The better way is to create a unique way for the hybrids to synergize with other jobs. Dancer is a great example of this. Their buffs and offensive debuffs stack with other buffs and debuffs of the same type from other jobs synergizing well with them. Haste Sanba stacks with Haste and Box Step stacks with Dia (though Desperate Blows and Haste Samba doesn't synergize well, but that's the exception).

To be honest Red Mage would be a lot closer to being balanced if SE would just create better monsters. Monsters that aren't artificially difficult because of enfeebling immunity and monsters that naturally require lots of defensive synergies between jobs to actually survive. Monsters that most jobs don't just automatically cap most stats on making Store TP really the only stats that increases your damage. Then Red Mage would be fine as the master of enfeebling. That being said I don't see that happening, and most of the unique ideas that would create additional offensive synergy that the Red Mage boards have thought of that would help Red Mage melee have been passed to newer jobs, besides with the Aura idea that tends to go thematically against Red Mage. Unless someone things of another unique way to give Red Mage additional synergy that doesn't step on the toes of Sch or Blu the only way left really is artificial synergy.

[Windblade]

RDM could be made fun again. I would sometimes like to get right beside the monster and hit it, but I usually CAN'T hit it because of low accuracy. RDM could be geared to be more effective enfeeblers. Like if you have Enstone active on your sword, your Slow spell would have more potency. You could Enblizzard for a more potent Paralyze. If the RDM had a full set of elemental weapon skills, the ice elemental weapon skill could kick a whammy of a Paralyze on the mob. This would reduce the need for cures because people wouldn't be taking as much damage... Therefore RDM becomes VERY helpful on the front line instead of standing back using staff-switch macros.

But RDM does need better accuracy, even if it's magically-induced.

Or here's an idea... make it a job ability toggle system. If you're a healer, use a job ability that reduces your weapon accuracy, but increases cure potency. Or if you're in melee mode, you have normal cure potency and more accuracy.

If RDM is never going to get Cure V back, at least let us have some more natural cure potency.

[Seriha]

I'm not keen on the stance idea if you're looking at it from the give and take angle. WHM's stances take nothing from them, but they're still unique. Meanwhile, I'd still like to play on my old Elemental Feedback idea where Enspell damage builds into a pool like Sublimation/Solace cures there you can then apply buffs to certain job aspects based on the mode you're in. The two I came up with basically had one where you upped the potency and duration of all buffs, while the other boosted your nukes and enfeebles. How much would vary based on how many points you opted to put into them from your enspell reserve. And of course, hopping between them would kill your pool, prompting a bit more thinking to be made in how you behave.

The moment you start taking needed things from RDM just to appease people, the more you cripple it in a way that'll steer them toward the specialists. Much as I like having T4 nukes, I could've lived without them, just as SCH shouldn't have gotten T5s and instead got T2 Helix spells. SE's monumentally screwed up on some facets of this cap increase, and to go back on it now would probably do more harm than good.

[Duelle]

The main problem I believe actually stems from that we are looking at MMOs balance in the wrong way, mainly the Healer, Tank, DD, trinity.Not to sound crass, but ignoring a pillar of game design like the trinity is already getting off to a bad start. There have been outliers, of course, but they create more problems than they fix. RDM proved this quite readily when parties were trapped in jeuno because they lacked someone with refresh/ballad.

That being said the issue with Red Mage is that it's terrible at synergizing with certain other jobs because a lot of their buffs/debuffs don't stack with other jobs. For example White Mage, your traditional healer, syngergizes terribly with Red Mage, especially in a game state where enfeebles are worthless. The only thing Red Mage offers to the White Mage that synergizes is Refresh II and even that doesn't synergize that well since they can sub for their own refresh. Sure they can back up cure and help haste the DDs but there's no synergy with a white mage doing that (unless your White Mage has to rest a LOT). You would probably be better off inviting a Bard with a healing sub if you wanted that. The Bards ballad stacks with the White Mages Refresh and the Bard syngergizes with the White Mages offensive buffs as well (Haste + March). The White Mage supplies nothing I can actually think of off the top of my head that synergizess with the Red Mage.This is due to them sharing spells. It would have been another story if RDM spells had been completely different from what WHM and BLM have access to. RDM, being RDM, is simply utilizing those spells to full its spell list. That's well within concept of the job, so it can't be helped.

The Red Mage really only has one thing to contribute the offense that synergizes that the White Mage doesn't have, Dia III, and with Dia III not being that significantly stronger then the White Mages option, Dia II, and in a game state where most heavy DDs can pretty much cap attack with just their food and their own buffs that leaves Rdm in a bad predicament.Even if this were not the case, that'd leave the RDM to be invited for enfeebles, adding that to cure and refresh duty.

There has to be some way to compensate for this on the generalist end and frankly one of the easiest ways is to simply create artificial synergy. If a specialist is 100% of a job (for this example, in reality they tend to have other aspects as well). The improper way to create a hybrid would be a 50% 50% split between 2 roles. Inviting 2 specialists for those roles generally create more synergy then inviting 2 of the hybrids. Like I said one easy way of fixing this is to just create artificial synergy. If instead you made the hybrids 70% and 70% then inviting 2 hybrids would "artificially" create synergy by giving rhe party 140% worth from 2 people. The problem with this though is that people will still invite what is better and either the hybrids artificial synergy will surpass the specialists or they will still be weaker. Mind you that there is an area of grey that makes it difficult to tell which one is actually ahead, but getting anywhere near that area is already difficult.As I've seen this tried elsewhere, it wouldn't really work. Even with the smaller numbers and stat values in FFXI, it still would not pick up because in the end, the masses are not number crunchers. They're not going to tell themselves that inviting the hybrids will compensate for the pures they're leaving out because of utility. They'd have to be perceived in a way that they contribute near equally (the mythical 5%) before it comes anywhere close to being accepted.

Unless someone things of another unique way to give Red Mage additional synergy that doesn't step on the toes of Sch or Blu the only way left really is artificial synergy.I don't look at it as stepping on toes. I look at it as RDM joining the new definition of hybrid instead of being stuck in the stone age in terms of design. Hybrids like RDM were seen in everquest and a bunch of older games. Those days are long gone, and while everyone has had ways to get with the times (even BLM), we're got very little thrown our way.

The moment you start taking needed things from RDM just to appease people, the more you cripple it in a way that'll steer them toward the specialists.Depends on what is needed. Versatility we need. Ability to switch roles on the fly, which from a balance standpoint is what keeps the devs from touching our class, is not.

I can compromise, though. I originally said what I said due to figuring a melee stance would have something like an instant attack on a one-minute cooldown that would allow an elemental spell to be cast through the equipped blade (sword or dagger). We're already doing away with cast times with that alone. In conjunction, my version of Magic Fencer (which would be gained in the 50s when this stance is active) would grant a TP bonus to spells cast through this instant ability (I've yet to figure out what limitations to place to prevent some guy building TP, then switching to a MAB set and then using the ability...short of making the instant use ability's damage be unnaffected by MAB). I guess I could make it work with only your second highest tier. So at lv cap RDM would be able to insta-cast tier IIIs (with a TP bonus) and have tier IVs to hard cast. Guess I should write this down as a class concept and post at some point.

[ManaKing]

I'm not sure why you guys keep pointing to the holy trinity of tank, DD, and healer because that isn't the model for this game. What role does a SMN, BRD, COR, and to my knowledge a RDM fit into? They are buff/debuffers. Where is that in your holy trinity? I would honestly like an answer because that is generally what I play.

The model for this game is the original 6 classes you are allowed to play, or at least it was. WAR, MNK, THF, RDM, BLM, and WHM are a well balanced party. The WAR will tank and DD, the MNK and THF will DD and move the hate around when needed, the BLM will burst, the WHM will heal and AOE buff, and the RDM will do buffing/debuff to relieve the MP burden from the BLM and WHM and do anything they can to assist them and will melee so that they contribute more. The party will have little to no downtime and will be able to take on almost any threat the game can throw at 6 people without them needing a specialized team to deal with it.

The way I see my role in a party as a RDM is that I am everyone's best friend. I debuff mobs. I buff allies. I back up heal. If I'm doing all that, I don't have the the MP to do anything else besides magic burst. Because I have Fast Cast and Convert, I have the time to do decent melee damage in between spell casts and I don't have to sit.

Situation I'm addressing

There are situations where I am not going to as effective. When mobs are immune to debuffs or they die too fast for it to matter, i become significantly less effective. Enfeebles are cheap and effective. I also cast them faster than anyone in the game, so I'm saving another mage casting time by doing it. Not casting enfeebles doesn't mean I have a ton of MP just sitting around to drop nukes. I'll run out of MP and I won't be back up healing.

The alternative that I would be asking for is to be able to make up for my lack of utility with increased melee damage. It is already MP efficient to cast an enspell and melee mobs. That is the solution I am looking for to fix the lack of growth that RDM has experienced 75+ in it's melee. The current Enspells are not good enough to support RDM being an actual class when our only A rank skill is taken away from us. We need damage that is at least in the same ball park of a DD to function in an environment that deems enfeebling magic ineffective.

The argument that everyone will play RDM is utter garbage. Enfeebles don't stack. Buffs don't stack. Healing does. Nuking does. Melee does. Any DD can /WHM or /DNC and get the same utility that a RDM has with healing, but even with a /DD a RDM can't out damage an equally geared DD. So long as your tank is doing their job, more damage is still going to be more damage.

Enspells don't stack with other job abilities, nor do they stack with weapon skills, nor with other additional affects such as sambas or even criticals since they don't alter your base damage. A DD/DD generally has their original classes's strengths multiplied by their sub jobs. A DRG/SAM has store TP for their jumps and has Hasso for their auto attacks and TP build. Any DD can /WAR for Berserk and Warcry and get double attacks and an attack bonus. The only thing that makes enspell I do more damage, that comes from another job, is dual wield from /NIN. It decreases the weapon delay, which in turn lowers your TP growth. Hasso, does not. Nothing makes Enspell IIs do more damage except for more haste. Not even double attacks or multi hit weapons.

Having proficient enspells also requires you to have your enhancing magic leveled to be qualitatively effective. If you burn a RDM, you will spend almost as much time skilling your RDM as it would have taken to level it. A bunch of bandwagon RDMs aren't going to just show up overnight because they can't.

Solution

I'm personally hoping for Enspell 3s starting at level 75. Main hand only. Larger damage cap and an accuracy/m.acc bonus so that we can get by with Bs in sword and dagger as well as a C in elemental.

Other solutions are to ease the restrictions on current enspell IIs. Being able to apply other on hit affects, apply to multihits, or applying to multihit weapons skills would have a significant affect on the amount of DPS we could do with enspell IIs without letting it grow like a DDs. The developers wouldn't have to come up with new spells or abilities, they would just have to rewrite previous game mechanics.

I'm not a fan of us getting fixed by getting additional WSs. Every melee RDM would be /NIN and use enspell Is with dual wield. It would be the most efficient class combination. There would be no character diversity and no choices to be made. Enspell IIs would still be lack luster and shouldn't have been put in the game. If you want better WSs then /WAR, /DRK, /PLD, or /BLU. It's already there for you. You have to make the choice. You can either dual wield like a damage specialist or you can use WSs like a damage specialist, but you can't do both because you aren't a damage specialist.

I'm not a fan of RDMs have the same max damage potential as an actual specialist. If you have taken the time to track down a bunch of good gear, have your merits invested wisely, and have a sub job that is appropriate for melee, I want RDMs to be welcome on the front line because they can do enough damage to be appreciated there.

[Supersun]

This is actually why I propose that Rdm should get a strong elemental weapon skill because it will actually help wean us from relying on /nin. Like Seriah mentioned in response to the post about quickening a strong double attack would help pull us away from using the Joyeuse, but when I did the math in my head I reached one big roadblock. It wasn't from the additional +30% Dot that stacks with enspells, but that in combination with an automatic +1 fTP to every physical weapon skill made it really hard to justify any small amount of double attack from /war beating /nins to dual wield. I mean +1 fTP is unheard of for a weaponskill, you would require more then 50% TA just to beat that for the WS alone. But that's only with physical weaponskills. Elemental weaponskills on the other hand do NOT have their fTP affected by additional attacks by the offhand or the main hand. If your primary weaponskill is an elemental weapon skill then the only benefit /nin gives you is the +30% DoT from melee strikes, and that makes it a lot less mandatory. For example Scholar starts becoming a more realistic sub while meleeing since their storm spells in combination with an obi automatically gives your WS a +10% damage bonus. If the weapon skill has it's damage vary by TP then /war also becomes a powerful sub, not only because of the +10% increased weapon skill frequency from Double Attack, but also from Fencer's TP Bonus that it grants (assuming we don't get that natively which would be silly...since we are fencers >.>).

That isn't to say that an Elemental Weaponskill doesn't have its problems. If you thought Rdms reliance on the Joyeuse was bad before wait until people realize that our new elemental weaponskill does NOT depend on the base damage of your weapon unlike a physical weapon skill. OaX will become even more popular then they are now which isn't necessarily a bad thing since enspells tend to benefit from OaX weapons. That's not to say that this issue can't be fixed though. Like I mentioned if the weapon skill is designed to favor /war because of the TP bonus then the +100 TP bonus sword also becomes another viable option. In addition if instead the WS is more designed like Sanquine Blade then an +Int and +MATK sword also becomes useful, not just by boosting WS numbers but by also functioning as a hybrid weapon. Then there's also the gambler's sword, the lowers magic defense sword. The additional effect may not be up all the time but when it is it wil by far outperform any other option in terms of pure WS damage, it won't be as viable for fights under 30secs-1min since it takes time and chance to proc the additional effect, but for those fights that do last that long that's also another option.

[Duelle]

I'm not sure why you guys keep pointing to the holy trinity of tank, DD, and healer because that isn't the model for this game. What role does a SMN, BRD, COR, and to my knowledge a RDM fit into? They are buff/debuffers. Where is that in your holy trinity? I would honestly like an answer because that is generally what I play.SMN would have been a decent DD if the class had not been 1) bogged down by a myriad of limitations and restrictions outside of Astral Flow and 2) people hadn't been so stupidly desperate to cause SMN/WHM to become the "accepted" set up for that job.

COR is the DD built around a buffing system. Something I've been asking the developers to make since I saw this game had a Bard class. Yes, there are players that semi-ruined that by playing COR/WHM with a staff strapped to their back, but SMN already explains why that happened.

RDM, we all know where that job stands.

(WARNING: personal bias detected) BRD is what I call the class you should never aim to implement unless you design them in a way that will cause a reasonable amount of people to play it. This game proves that hypothesis well, as BRD is a class that heavily affects group dynamics (even moreso once Ballad was introduced and made even worse when people figured out what March does to performance) while being stupidly rare amongst the players.

Three of those are outliers to the trinity. One was trash for a long time with a workable gimmick every two hours, one screwed up party dynamics due to being so rare, and I will dare say the other one took the screw because they were the next best thing and eventually were forced to fill the gap not commonly filled by the rare class with buffs. Yes, I speak of SMN, BRD and RDM in that order. I understand some people like to play support, but one must also be aware of what that does to party mechanics. BRD and RDM were also the only two ways people could recover MP for a long time before COR joined that party. In short, one thing led to another.

and the RDM will do buffing/debuff to relieve the MP burden from the BLM and WHM and do anything they can to assist them and will melee so that they contribute more.Actually, enfeebling was not on RDM's plate until the revamp of the class where we lost marksmanship skill and flash.

This is actually why I propose that Rdm should get a strong elemental weapon skill because it will actually help wean us from relying on /nin.That still means that NIN and DNC curbstomps sword and board in overall DPS. Most if not all one-handers have sadly become dependent on dual wield. Would probably not be the case if DW only added attack rounds without increasing weapon skill frequency, but that's mere conjecture.

[Supersun]

I know Dual Wield does somewhat increase weapon skill frequency from the reduced delay, but it shouldn't be ANYWHERE near what war can do with an elemental WS. First off +10% DA already guarantees a +10% WS frequency. In addition if you are using a OaX weapon /war will also pull ahead even more due to the fact that ONLY the OaX is swinging as opposed to your main hand that generally slows down your TP build with /nin in exchange for better stats, WS, and DoT. Now I'm not saying that /nin and /dnc aren't worthless or anything, surely Joy + Oa4 would be a powerful dual wield but I don't think it would curb /war as bad as you think it would, especially with a DA spell or something.

(obviously replace OaX with DA weapons inside abyssea for /war)

[Duelle]

I know Dual Wield does somewhat increase weapon skill frequency from the reduced delay, but it shouldn't be ANYWHERE near what /war can do with an elemental WS.This would be interesting to test out.

First off +10% DA already guarantees a +10% WS frequency. In addition if you are using a OaX weapon /war will also pull ahead even more due to the fact that ONLY the OaX is swinging as opposed to your main hand that generally slows down your TP build with /nin in exchange for better stats, WS, and DoT. Now I'm not saying that /nin and /dnc aren't worthless or anything, surely Joy + Oa4 would be a powerful dual wield but I don't think it would curb /war as bad as you think it would, especially with a DA spell or something.Wouldn't this mean that you'd need a considerable amount of DA through gear and the suggested spell to reach something comparable to main-handing Almace and offhanding Joyeuse/Khanda?

The problem though is that multi-hitters are there only to assist with TP build-up. That's where the higher frequency of WS comes into play. I guess a DA Khanda having higher base damage would make up for it, but I guess we'd need someone to crunch some numbers. Not that we have the mentioned DA spell to help create concrete results.

[Supersun]

That's the point though. The damage of an elemental weapon skill is COMPLETELY INDEPENDENT from the base damage of a weapon. A lvl 1 bronze sword will do as much as Excalibur. And if that is the case why wouldn't you just SINGLE WIELD an OaX? No need for a non OaXing mainhand to slow you down.

If this is the case unless you have 2 OaXes to dual wield I can't see /nin coming anywhere close to /war for WS frequency and damage. Even the DoT increase from /nin is pretty much matched by Berserk.

[Seriha]

The problem though is that multi-hitters are there only to assist with TP build-up. That's where the higher frequency of WS comes into play. I guess a DA Khanda having higher base damage would make up for it, but I guess we'd need someone to crunch some numbers. Not that we have the mentioned DA spell to help create concrete results.

I'll try, but I can't promise I'll do this right. We'll assume 100 attack rounds while using the listed damage of a weapon.

Joyeuse D35 (40% DA to itself): 140 attacks for 3400.
DA 10% Khanda +2 D55 (Add another 18% through /WAR and Brutal/Atheling): 128 attacks for 7040.
Joyeuse D35 (40% + 28%): 168 attacks for 5880.
DA 10% Khanda +2 D55 (+28% with the above and the theorized Quck): 138 attacks for 7590.
Joyeuse D35 (40% + 38%): 178 attacks for 6230.

Of course, I don't know if the DA would interact as a straight addition to Joyeuse's 40%, but the above was assumed calculating 68% on the second version and 78% on the third.

In terms of delay, with no /NIN, the Joyeuse would finish its attacks in 23300D, or 388.33 seconds. The Khanda would need 25200D or 420 seconds. Since the Joyeuse is roughly 8% faster, we could add that amount of damage to all versions bumping them up to 3672, 6350.4, and 6728.4 respectively in the same span it'd take the Khanda to finish.

Assuming no caps with DA% or errors in the interaction, the fact Joyeuse is within 18% in the best cases is a bit disheartening, as this basically lessens every other sword in both damage output and TP gain. Almace could still be run at 28% single-handing with Quick in play, and it would win on neutral targets (7808). Jumping from /WAR to /NIN would basically keep the same DA rate if using the +2 with it, making it something like "7808 + 6490 = 14298" versus +2/Joy "6490 + 5530 = 12020" or Almace/Joy "6588 + 5180 = 11768". The delay for 100 attack rounds in all 3 combos would be 360, 360, and 336 per round respectively with DWIII's 25% reduction. Overall, the first two would need 600 seconds to do their thing to the last's 560.

Either way, the proposed combos all throughout this basically crap heavily on anything where Joyeuse, a DA%, or Almace isn't involved. 2 STR Shamshirs might sound good on a hit-for-hit basis, but your TP gain will suffer with only 8% DA. Going for something like INT/MATK swords may give your nukes a bit more oomph, but your martial side falls behind yet more. Part of this is due to our WS restrictions, yes, but this is either a case of Joyeuse being too good or new options not being good enough or as readily accessible. Add cast times slowing our DPS and it's just an uphill battle, of which RDM's arguably needed the multi-hit weaponry to get around the cast times and still be a decent contributor of damage.

[Darka]

Not gonna take part in the melee RDM debate, since I think it's ridiculous but;


I'll try, but I can't promise I'll do this right. We'll assume 100 attack rounds while using the listed damage of a weapon.

Joyeuse D35 (40% DA to itself): 140 attacks for 3400.
DA 10% Khanda +2 D55 (Add another 18% through /WAR and Brutal/Atheling): 128 attacks for 7040.
Joyeuse D35 (40% + 28%): 168 attacks for 5880.
DA 10% Khanda +2 D55 (+28% with the above and the theorized Quck): 138 attacks for 7590.
Joyeuse D35 (40% + 38%): 178 attacks for 6230.


^Numbers are off. Short story is RDM isn't going to be capping pdif, but for argument sake I'll assume it is. Along with fSTR.

Thats 35D and an fSTR cap of 11. So 46*2.0 pdif is 92 dmg/hit excluding crits. So 92*100 is a total of 9200 from melee DoT. Throw in 18% DA, an extra 18 rounds, 10856 DMG.
82% of the time DA won't trigger, giving an extra 40% DA from OAT on remaining hits. So an extra 32 rounds. 32*92 is 2944DMG. 13800 DMG total.

Khanda, 14STR, 55D. so 69*2.0 = 138 DMG/hit. 13800 DMG naturally. 13800*1.18 is 16284. So a 15% difference in melee numbers alone.

Now factor delay. We'll throw the parse up to around 20 minutes, (1200 seconds.)

4.2 seconds per hit for Khanda = 285 swings(excluding DA)
3.73 seconds per hit for Joyeuse = 321 swings (excluding DA/Xproc)

Total DMG including proc

Joyeuse = 44436 DMG
Khanda = 46368 DMG

4.1% difference. The gap will close further and pull in favor of Joyeuse the longer you fight.

Of course there's the fact you won't cap fSTR/attack, and an STR sword pulls miles ahead of both. Typically OaX variants are pretty weak comparably to regular weapons.

DW does increase WS frequency, and will be better than /WAR unless you're hitting for 0, and even then, close.

I may have calculated something wrong, but I doubt differences would be that high.

Edit: Also, /WAR offers nothing for Magic WS unless you're in dire need of the attack to not hit for 0, so you actually get TP. DW will increase WS frequency a lot more. (Even if something like STR is a mod, it'll lose to WS frequency, DW in high increments > DA).

[Swords]

This would be interesting to test out.
Wouldn't this mean that you'd need a considerable amount of DA through gear and the suggested spell to reach something comparable to main-handing Almace and offhanding Joyeuse/Khanda?

The problem though is that multi-hitters are there only to assist with TP build-up. That's where the higher frequency of WS comes into play. I guess a DA Khanda having higher base damage would make up for it, but I guess we'd need someone to crunch some numbers. Not that we have the mentioned DA spell to help create concrete results.

The power of the weapon often has alot less to do with Magic based WS's than physical, which is why people have been asking for RDM to natively have the powerful Sword WS's.

I've been fiddling with Cataclysm and Retribution with my Celeritas Pole on MNK lately while building up Amber light in abyssea, obviously my MNK isnt equipped to do heavy magic damage (even with beyond and ultimate I capped out at 1.2k with a 750 Average) so my Retributions always did more. However, in a similar scenario I was using staff against Amphitrite, because h2h can't use magic WS when he swaps modes. I had roughly similar results at first, but when I had brewed my Retributions capped out about 4k dmg and my Cataclysims jumped to roughly 20k.

[Seriha]

^Numbers are off.

Yeah, I avoided pDif and all that just going purely by the weapon's listed damage. Maybe a bad habit mine from back in the day where I told myself if I wasn't doing at least my weapon's D per hit, the party was over-hunting. Abyssea and all its buffs favors every melee in general, but once we step outside, it's pretty much back to the old problems where our ATK/STR can be more of a liability.

[Supersun]

Of course, I don't know if the DA would interact as a straight addition to Joyeuse's 40%, but the above was assumed calculating 68% on the second version and 78% on the third.

It does not. If an OaX effect activates a DA effect cannot. So in this scenario if you have 40% OaT and 28% DA then you will attack twice 56% of the time (OaX checks before DA (not that it matters in this scenario) so the 60% of the time you don't OaT is what the 28% DA is applied to)


Also, /WAR offers nothing for Magic WS

War offers Fencer which gives TP Bonus which for any magical WS with "Damage varies by TP" is a pretty big deal (well comparatively to other subs that don't give you nearly anything for elemental WSs)

Also, yeah /nin does increase WS frequency, but it isn't by that much is it? Since it's a delay reduction and not haste it recalculates how much TP you get based on your new delay which lower delay weapons tend to gain TP faster then higher delay weapons, but I'd be surprised if that difference can beat the added effect of Double Attack from /war.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Er what? They aren't calculated quite the same but both (dual wield and haste) apply to the total delay reduction cap.

[Supersun]

Er what? They aren't calculated quite the same but both (dual wield and haste) apply to the total delay reduction cap.
Yes, but haste does NOT recalculate a new TP value due to the lower delay. If you get 6 TP a hit it doesn't matter how much Haste you add it will always be 6 TP a hit.

Delay reduction on the other hand WILL recalculate your TP. If you have a 600 delay weapon with 50% Delay Reduction you will now gain TP like a 300 delay weapon. Haste will let you swing your 600 delay weapon twice as fast and still keep the 600 delay TP/hit.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Then I misunderstood what you meant, but double attack at 10% isn't going to beat dual wield III.

EDIT: although personally I'd like the option to either not rely on war sub for DA, or not rely on nin sub for dual wield (although considering thief even if we got DW trait which I see as highly unlikely, it'd be T1 at best making it not very useful).

[Supersun]

Then I misunderstood what you meant, but double attack at 10% isn't going to beat dual wield III.

EDIT: although personally I'd like the option to either not rely on war sub for DA, or not rely on nin sub for dual wield (although considering thief even if we got DW trait which I see as highly unlikely, it'd be T1 at best making it not very useful).

Double Attack 10% I would think would beat the WS frequency of Dual Wield at least. Not the DoT obvious, but berserk can close that gap. I would have to check the delay calculations to make sure, there are some screwy formulas.

And if you are asking for /nin and /war not to be the best melee subs...that's not happening.

If you are just asking for them to not be the ONLY SJs that are acceptable to melee in then /sch could still be pretty respectable. As long as an elemental WS isn't Thunder, Light, or Dark, we can equip an Obi and use a storm for the corresponding element which a +10% increase to WS damage certainly isn't bad.

Edit: Alright I did some quickie math and SOMETIMES Dual Wield beats Double Attack for TP gain. Dual Wield will beat double attack if your weapons innately have lower delay. If you have higher delay weapons like the Khanda +2 then Double Attack will be more beneficial. In addition if you have Dual Wield equipment that can also help push things in favor of Dual Wield over Double Attack. For example with a 225 delay weapon /war will beat out /nin using two 225 delay weapons, but if the /nin has a suppamomi then /nin will win instead. On the other hand not even a suppomimi will push /nin over /war with a 252 delay weapon like the Khanda +2 (I didn't check the ACP body). Basically the magic number is 180. If your dual wield reduces the average delay between your 2 weapons well below 180 then /nin will likely win. If it just barely passes 180, then /war will probably win.

[Darka]

Actually DA checks before OaX does, all traits do, QA > TA > DA > OaX.

Yes Dual Wield lowers TP/hit for weapons, but the lower your Delay is already the smaller this reduction is.

DW1 is a 10% reduction, so lets ball park delay from combined weapons at 400. 200/each.

6/seconds per round, 5tp/hit, 10 rounds for 100. Or 60 seconds.

55 seconds for 100 at 90, 51 seconds with Suppanomimi.

/WAR with 10DA (since any other DA gear can be used on /NIN)

19 rounds, costing 62 seconds to hit 100TP.

10% of 19 is 1.9, so we'll just assume you have two DA procs in that time. 56 seconds to hit 100 TP.

Therefore it loses to both /DW3 and /DW3+Suppa. This increase will become larger if you parse further than a minute, along with increasing your DoT from having two weapons.

If you're using swords I'm assuming the elemental skill of choice is Sanguine Blade? It's ftp doesn't change between TP levels, so Fencer isn't doing anything in that regard, besides it's generic +5% crit rate.

[Doombringer]

i think he's saying he wants a NEW magical ws. one powerful enough to at least SOMEWHAT weaken duel wields stranglehold, while at the same time keeping rdm melee at least SALVAGEABLE while using non melee subs (i for one am a hardcore melee rdm, and even I won't bother swinging a sword if i'm subbing whm or something)

if you wanna "gimp" /nin any new ws HAS to be magical as any physical ws gains to much from DW on top of DW's DW-ieness

sanguine blade woulda been close though... if rdm just had native access to it...

[Supersun]

Huh, you are right. My bad, I thought it was the opposite, but I checked and DA/TA do proc before OaX.


Like I said, for low delay weapons dual wield will definitely win and 200 is like Katana small. I mean not even Rapiers are that low. The lowest sword going to be used is the 218 being that new rapier.

Wiki lists that rapier as giving 5.9 TP/hit
With /war and double attack you can generalize that on average you will get 10% more so
5.9*1.1 = 6.49 TP/hit on average

with 25% dual wield (no suppamomi)
218+218 = 436
436*.75(inverse of 25%) = 327
327/2 = 163.5 (per hand average delay)
5.0 + [(Delay - 180) * 1.5 / 180] = 4.8625 TP/Hit

so we know that a 218 delay weapon on average gains 6.49 TP/Hit, but that makes it hard to compare since with /nin you are a 163.5 delay weapon that gives 4.8625 TP/hit. What we can do is make them a ratio of TP rate/delay since that should be able to show us which one gains TP faster.

6.49/218 and 4.8625/163.5
Now we can multiply one of the fractions so that their delays are equal. Since we know the second one is just a 25% reduction it's easily enough to divide by the inverse instead of multiply like we did before.

(4.8625/.75)/(163.5/.75) = 6.48/218

So
/war on average gives 6.49 TP/Hit with a 218 delay weapon
/nin would give an equivalent of 6.48 TP/Hit with a 218 weapon

So /war will beat /nin without a suppimomi as long as the average delay of both weapons stays within sword range. a Suppomimi will definitely skew this toward /nin though. Either way without the free +1fTP bonus on physical WSs from /nin, /war becomes a lot more competitive with /nin.


Also, yeah Sanguine Blade doesn't have a fTP and is instead HEAVILY affected by intelligence. The context of this was more the pros and cons of if SE introduced a new Sword Elemental WS that Red mage happened to actually get natively (and most elemental WSs tend to be "Damage varies by TP")

[Alukat]

anyone of u has ever mentioned eva-/def- swords with sub nin in DD pt situations?
magic eva / madef- for nuking pts?
acc-/eva- could be handy for high acc/eva mobs.

[Karbuncle]

Shame they can't give us a Rapier with this kind of delay higher up.

http://www.ffxiah.com/item/17647/aramiss-rapier

202 Delay!

[Darka]

(TP_B*Delay_A)/(TP_A*Delay_B)*100 will show you the ws frequency increase of adding Dual Wield vs the original Delay/TP gain. The only time DW hinders performance is when you're relying on OaX since it slows the swinging. But even then, the gains are higher than 10% DA from /WAR.

Same scenario as before, 200 Delay weapon, and 2*200 Delay Weapons.

Delay A = 200
TP A = 5.4

Delay B (after factoring DW3) = 300
TP B = 4.7

4.7*200 = 940
5.4*300 = 1620

floor(940/1620)*100 = 58% increase in WS frequency. That's from 0 Dual Wield to 35%
DA% increase in WS frequency is 10/100*100 = 10% assuming you're adding 10 onto a value of 0.

Dual Wield stomps all over DA in significant additives.

0 - 180 5.0 + [(Delay - 180) * 1.5 / 180]
181 - 450 5.0 + [(Delay - 180) * 6.5 / 270]

The above are the two values that'll apply Dual Wielding. You won't see a huge reduction in TP/hit unless your combined Delay falls below the previous bracket, in this case <180.

Edit: Sanguine Blade is pretty nice honestly.

[Supersun]

25% Dual Wield increases your TP gain by 58% percent...

Let's just think about what you just said there

25% haste increases your WS frequency by 33%

So in essence you are saying that Dual Wield is nearly TWICE as potent as haste, which does NOT reduce your TP in return to the reduced reduction, compared to Dual Wield which DOES reduce your TP in return for that reduction.

...I'm going to go out on a limb here and say there's an error with your math.



Delay A = 200
TP A = 5.4

Delay B (after factoring DW3) = 150
(150 not 300. Yes, 25% of 400 is 300, BUT Dual Wield does NOT use the combined delay of both weapons to calculate TP. It instead averages it between your two hands, so it calculates it as if you had 2 150 delay weapons.)
TP B = 4.7

4.7*200 = 940
5.4*150 = 810

floor(940/810) = 16% increase in WS frequency. That's from 0 Dual Wield to 25%(I think you meant 25% instead of 35%)
DA% increase in WS frequency is 10/100*100 = 10% assuming you're adding 10 onto a value of 0.

16% is a lot closer then 10% now isn't it. And you will find that the higher your delays get the smaller that gap becomes until about 218*2 (the lowest delay high level sword) where that gap is nearly nonexistant. Continuing to add delay will only give Double Attack a higher value then Duel Wield.

Once again though, suppamomi does tend to keep Dual Wield in style for longer if you have 1.

[Darka]

Oh whoops, haha I should've noticed that. I must've had calc left as NIN main or something and used 35%. I know it doesn't use the combined delay from two weapons, or the TP would've been like 10+/hit or something ridiculous, I /2 for TP/hit but I forgot to /2 there. Even if the /NIN starts losing slightly in WS frequency, you can't not account for the fact of two weapons, and more hits in a similar space of time.

[Duelle]

Ok, so to summarize the possibilities:

- RDM-exclusive elemental weapon skill, allowing emphasis on /WAR with Fencer and DA in mind
- Aura versions of refresh/haste
- Revamp to split RDM into various roles within the class
- Enspells buffed

Did I miss anything? We should probably get the OP to update the thread or something, I guess.

[Supersun]

Oh whoops, haha I should've noticed that. I must've had calc left as NIN main or something and used 35%. I know it doesn't use the combined delay from two weapons, or the TP would've been like 10+/hit or something ridiculous, I /2 for TP/hit but I forgot to /2 there. Even if the /NIN starts losing slightly in WS frequency, you can't not account for the fact of two weapons, and more hits in a similar space of time.

Well yea, Double attack alone doesn't won't even come close to the +30%ish increase to DoT, but another of War's abilities will, Berserk. Anything that the Red Mage isn't capping pDIF on (ie everything) Berserk will close the gap quite a bit at Berserk is generally estimated to be a +30% DoT increase while it's active. Yeah it's only active 3/5ths of the time, but between double attack and berserk the difference becomes a lot smaller. Assuming Berserk adds +30% damage for 3/5ths of the time and Double Attack adds +10% damage on top of that we get an average of...

(143%)(3/5) + (110%)(2/5) =
85.8% + 44% = 129.8%

So /war will likely give you a +29.8% increase to your physical DoT
/nin will give a +33% increase to your physical DoT (or +42% with a suppa)

Of course this is slightly even more skewed in /nins favor since Enspells only receive a +10% increase from /war while receiving the full bonus from /nin. But the difference may be small enough that the sub you use is entirely situational. Really the main point I'm trying to address though is that with a strong elemental WS native to Red Mage, Red Mage can feasibly melee even with a mage sub in place, because as it stands now a naked monk can probably out damage a Rdm with a mage sub in melee.

[Windblade]

But the difference may be small enough that the sub you use is entirely situational. Really the main point I'm trying to address though is that with a strong elemental WS native to Red Mage, Red Mage can feasibly melee even with a mage sub in place, because as it stands now a naked monk can probably out damage a Rdm with a mage sub in melee.

The point is that it takes red mage so LONG to kill anything without good weapon skills. So if we're going for experience points, it does take longer to level. Now if we got experience points based on both how long we survive and how long we fight, then it wouldn't bother me so much. If a SMN can drop three mobs in the time it takes a RDM to solo one, why should the RDM only get 1/3 the experience?

[shantaru]

give the redmages refresh + haste passive job trait works like aura easy answer

well the hard path as rdm used to be the much effort job always gimped really till maxes. it had its uses in past. now the future of rdm is rdm/nin as i do. with max heal set macro flow to quickly heal 929 plus cure iv's the the new fascast speed (hat 119 af1 etc, relic body fc+12 and accessories) one need to aquisition of the 4/5 fascast+5 hagondes set and both fascast earrings (1 from (sea ABCoins NPC and the other from abyssea) when one multi macro flows this set to cast NI and ITCHi recast is 12 seconds over cast on itchi and ni is 21 at max all hasted with new gears also for recast access. i posted some new jA x2 and haste II needed to really make RDM frontline. but defense is alrady obtainable and so far parsing with BRD in party as rdm/nin on 119+ diff SCkrest bcnm20 i parsed 70k + in 12 min win. that not as good as it should be but it has potential as a GREAT and REAL fun self supporting and others in party melee job (THAT SHOULD BE!!) with haste II and both JA's ENDOW and DUEALaga attack boost based on enhancing magic gear equiped /500 cap for effect and duration on all 3. a max rdm would have the cap of this 3 new adds at 500 like everything. the 2 AOE job abilities i suggest called #1 ENDOW lets the rdm cast the gains spells or temper DA chance rate 20% at 500 skill) under composure it would last much longer than 2.5 min on a 5 min JA resuse timer. #2 DUELaga is JA aoe again based on 500 skill cap to enhance all members in AOE range with attack boost) again at 500 wouldnt last much more than 2.5 min making the party wait 2.5 for RDM to once again use. desireable YES to all both and Haste II single targeted. excaliber 119 and SUBhand 119 burmamenk'ah or 119 aahm sabr and its on like a big DONG! hit me up and waht ya think???? ive got all subjobs like /blm /dnc /sum from old 75 days in fafnir 18 alliance im old school 11 years in. but even a rdm/blm can rock this not in the melee circle but run in DUELAGA- gain-str to all and let whm boost dex (criticals). i see this as rdm all the way back in the game with 3 new ideas simple and sweet and the rest you gotta earn it still!!!!!!!!:p

[Demonjustin]

Shan... please. Sentences, and paragraphs. I want to read what you say, but I can't do it in that form.

[shantaru]

hard to say so many times over in different posts. i posted it in outline form on RDM and HASTE II (posted) as a reply to his comment. go read that it more line by line and pretty simple to read. sorry i go in circles but this stuff is gold for us if se will do it and NO!!!! becoming the melee RDM/nin will not be easy but with this new additions to RDM i am living proof that RDM rocks already RDM/nin

[Demonjustin]

I am quite the RDM myself, and often use RDM/NIN, that is part of why I would love to read your posts. I just find it impossible to read them without them being broken up into smaller bits. I go to try to read them but they look like such a wall of words thrown together in a way that my migraines I already have only get worse before I get to start reading let alone during the reading itself.

[shantaru]

i made mistake when i said read the response to rdm and haste II post. it ment read "SE needs new ideas?? im a list 2 new JA needed" i posted is weeks ago but that has what im thinking on JA andow JA DUELaga attack boost and haste II plus some ideas on dispell II removing 2 buffs so u can cast dispell II but fastcast and a good magic piece or 2 hagondes +15 mac or more (hands alone have base +20) is enough to debuff tojil fast enough as an example so not really needed but i hope se can see the post i wrote i want you to read it simple line by line telling duration , recast and how enhancing gear equip per effect and duration on all is listed. hope it clear enough on that 1 post. sorrry i spam i not a writer i'm coder and a fighter! DUEL WEILD ALL the WAY! take care

[shantaru]

now there a math wiz. i agree on the duel wield /nin sub and DM earring not bad if know how to gear WS and insta macro back to attack set loosing the earring duel weild effect for less than 1 sec at most. haste II the key and some love RDM can give to the rest of the party aoe based on enhancing gear equip/500 cap like all rdm enhance effect /duration is. JA x2 and haste II. read post "se need new ideas im list 2 new JA's" is line by line simple ideas to fix rdm. let me know what ya think on that possible
"

[shantaru]

sorry BROham i really want to help. ON laskmi im am the standing rdm anything on mac mab shared by rdm/blm the 5/5 fc hafondes set (cap fascast) excalibur 119 as rdm/nin sub buramenk'ah for now (saber 1/31 lost lot it hard drop) well see if magic effect ws at all or enought cant find solid info) i say ya it does!! well see! from now on after this post ill be writing my post in outline form. at least it be easier to read though by though and easier for me to write blunt statement! im not a writer but i have alot of knowlage of RDM and superior atama selectiong as i proc the 9 realms of abyssea many time over in past 11 years. rdm/nin is impossible to gauge at close or MAX. i sloloed sendna + pop item PUGIL nm and all the adds for 15 min before i killed both NM's. waterballs from either side i was a pin ball taru for a while. rdm is possible and basically at max it works on 119+ aahm even on enfeebles. but VD it take excalibur to land any + close to cap +25 or more hagondes and cap enfeeble +a little skill on 119 gear) dont give up on rdm/blm amc full dot and impact s after STYMIE addle or addle max normal first then land your spells. rem proper enfeeble order-> addle max it if need then sabatour blind II , slow II the attack rate , dia III then it defense- now insta cast impact. and full DOT choke, drown if possible! this is the path of rdm/blm at new content mac gears. gravity a good on for alot of new content once all enfeeble order is on NM. just some thoughts on how i think and roll. parsed 70k in 12.5 min on SKcrest 119+ diff mode (120 content) in 12.5 min) RNG did 240k )rdm still need fix but has potential . if se tweek rdm, me and you be on like a BIG DONG on KING KONG! take care and ill post line by line in future i said mostly what want on SE need new idead im list a FEW post i posted. it line by line on JA timers etc. check it! /salute

[Mirage]

You can help, with paragraphs.

[SpankWustler]

Shantaru, you might want to consider casting Stone 1-3.

http://www.jectronics.com/product_images/y/111/English1-3__81165_zoom.jpg

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

James Joyce meets e. e. cummings.

[elqplau]

Lol i started when rdm was a powerfull job next to pld we where undefeatable....but complaints rang out that rdm was to strong so we got nurphed...divine magic was skillable long ago before the nurf...but we where sent to refresh/defuff he##

[elqplau]

RDM of the old gaurde i agree RDM was nurphed right after the ToU installement it has been a refresh/buff/debuff sence at the start if this game PLD = protecters and RDM where escorts niw RDM cant protect its self ir others i walked to the three kingdoms for rank three i was lvl 16 at the start 17 when i got rank.... take a RDM now at lvl 16 you wont make it though val dunes

[elqplau]

All respects to the RDM that work the job....ive been solo player sence tau came out because after that RDM seemed to get in the way...i only started to get party invites at 38 and that was because of refresh i solo every thing every where i dont do delve you need refresh? Sub rdm im not a main line healer RDM that say they are have nvr played WHM my job as a RDM from the start was always a stand in to PLD that stopped when RDM was conccered to strong from the wanna be players SE nurfed RDM my second update that btw was when lvl cap 50 was lifted with gear now i can respect the job again but it still is a long way from where it was...

[elqplau]

RDM is on a lot of H2H weapons, Bows and Staves... As well as Possesses a native Divine skill, yet no native divine magic. Does that mean they should be Monk/Ranjer hybrids and have access to Banish I-IV?

Kk im a 99RDM im here to tell u my staff skill is capped.... @151 the only way i can now skill up my 'native' divine skill is if i sub whm... i nolonger get skill ups from dia as i once did ...so fighting with a 151capped staff skill ....ru ok? RDM role at the start of this game was with sword/sheid/magic..... not hiding behind every1 else with a useless staff...now as others have stated we who at one time where the starter pld's are < and not wanted for nething but a sub job .....not to bad i gueese but from a starter job to nothing? Sorry but i dont have to like it ir agree with it... ive been a solo player sence the nurf...just my opion

[Dale]

Red Mage can already play frontline.

Sub BLU and team phalanx up with cocoon and spam sanguine blade. It's pretty durable. I'm sure /warrior would probably work too. So I'd say Red Mage already has the tools to be an effective front line fighter.

[Dale]

All respects to the RDM that work the job....ive been solo player sence tau came out because after that RDM seemed to get in the way...i only started to get party invites at 38 and that was because of refresh i solo every thing every where i dont do delve you need refresh? Sub rdm im not a main line healer RDM that say they are have nvr played WHM my job as a RDM from the start was always a stand in to PLD that stopped when RDM was conccered to strong from the wanna be players SE nurfed RDM my second update that btw was when lvl cap 50 was lifted with gear now i can respect the job again but it still is a long way from where it was...

I was able to 3 man a WKR the other day on my RDM healing a samurai and dragoon. The stamina this job has is pretty amazing and I would say it could be used to main heal most if not all content I've seen so far on this game.

I'll concede it's not as good at countering area damage as is a white mage. And that's definitely a weakness when that comparison is made. But there are usually strategies you can implore to help mitigate that. Not to mention Red Mage also brings a lot of good enfeebles and enhancements to the table. So in that context, I feel it can still be considered a powerful healer in its own right.

[bukadan]

to be honest, if you arent healing when youre on rdm youre most likely doing it wrong. rdm is actually amazing when played correctly. i do tojils brd rdm sam, ill play two of them and ill grab a friend who has bard or a good sam, and ill play the other two. i mean speaking from a strictly efficiency based standpoint, rdm offers a wide variety of roles (and by extension more advanced discretionary roles, like being the semi-main healer as well as stunner for tojil. (as well as maintaining hastesII, dia3, ect. can only cast 1 spell between each stun in the case of tojil, so its definately important the bard has curing sets at an acceptable level as well)

i mean to say that you arent willing to do what a party may need (main healing for example), then you are just simply missing the point. when it comes down to being efficient in anything, you obviously wouldnt begin by saying you arent ok with doing anything but what YOU believe you have to do to be efficient. i mean, in order to to get better at being efficient you have to adapt, and without that crucial element of general survival intact, youre sure to fall behind and never come to appreciate the full potential the job has to offer. this applies for solo and party play, actually.

so, elqplau, tldr; basically you shouldnt knock things people expect out of you simply because you dont agree with whats being requested due to some archaic arbitrary mindset of long ago.

[Dale]

to be honest, if you arent healing when youre on rdm youre most likely doing it wrong. rdm is actually amazing when played correctly. i do tojils brd rdm sam, ill play two of them and ill grab a friend who has bard or a good sam, and ill play the other two. i mean speaking from a strictly efficiency based standpoint, rdm offers a wide variety of roles (and by extension more advanced discretionary roles, like being the semi-main healer as well as stunner for tojil. (as well as maintaining hastesII, dia3, ect. can only cast 1 spell between each stun in the case of tojil, so its definately important the bard has curing sets at an acceptable level as well)

i mean to say that you arent willing to do what a party may need (main healing for example), then you are just simply missing the point. when it comes down to being efficient in anything, you obviously wouldnt begin by saying you arent ok with doing anything but what YOU believe you have to do to be efficient. i mean, in order to to get better at being efficient you have to adapt, and without that crucial element of general survival intact, youre sure to fall behind and never come to appreciate the full potential the job has to offer. this applies for solo and party play, actually.

so, elqplau, tldr; basically you shouldnt knock things people expect out of you simply because you dont agree with whats being requested due to some archaic arbitrary mindset of long ago.

I agree up to a point. It's true a Red Mage is very versatile and should use that to their advantage to help out the party where needed. But parties should also recognize that not all Red Mages play the same and not automatically view them as primary healers if that's not how their character is built.

There needs to be some give and take on both ends I believe. I'm with you that that Red Mages make for excellent healers though.

[Zekander]

The only problem I have with RDM healing is that we are restricted to the same spells as any other job subbing either WHM or RDM (i.e. Cure IV). However, I do understand that giving RDM even Cure V, would make us competitive (over-competitive?) with WHM again. That doesn't seem like something SE wants, though I'm not sure why, given the current state of WHM (which I also play) it doesn't seem like giving RDM (and SCH) Cure V would make much difference. It's hard to compete with near instant cures and a nigh unlimited MP pool. I can see that RDM would have fast cures too, but spamming Cure V would deplete our MP pool pretty quick, SCH (with Cure V) would probably be a more competitive healer (though I don't have any first hand experience with the job).

[saevel]

to be honest, if you arent healing when youre on rdm youre most likely doing it wrong. rdm is actually amazing when played correctly. i do tojils brd rdm sam, ill play two of them and ill grab a friend who has bard or a good sam, and ill play the other two. i mean speaking from a strictly efficiency based standpoint, rdm offers a wide variety of roles (and by extension more advanced discretionary roles, like being the semi-main healer as well as stunner for tojil. (as well as maintaining hastesII, dia3, ect. can only cast 1 spell between each stun in the case of tojil, so its definately important the bard has curing sets at an acceptable level as well)

i mean to say that you arent willing to do what a party may need (main healing for example), then you are just simply missing the point. when it comes down to being efficient in anything, you obviously wouldnt begin by saying you arent ok with doing anything but what YOU believe you have to do to be efficient. i mean, in order to to get better at being efficient you have to adapt, and without that crucial element of general survival intact, youre sure to fall behind and never come to appreciate the full potential the job has to offer. this applies for solo and party play, actually.

so, elqplau, tldr; basically you shouldnt knock things people expect out of you simply because you dont agree with whats being requested due to some archaic arbitrary mindset of long ago.

RDM can heal perfectly fine when it's just one or two melee jobs that need it, where RDM breaks down is with three or more. The absolute best healing spell in the game is Curaga III, followed shortly by Curaga IV. Both of those spells allow the healer to rapidly heal the front line folks to full. After you cast any spell there is a 3s global lockout where you can't take another action, if your limited to single target cures then it becomes very dangerous to have a RDM healer because they simply can not cure fast enough to keep all three alive. Also /SCH doesn't give you stona, so in any situation where you might need to counter petrify your stuck with /WHM and no light arts (which is godly for RDM). This is where a SCH/RDM main healer would actually be better, they can get all the status removals while also getting much better regen's and most of the same support functions that RDM brings.

[saevel]

The only problem I have with RDM healing is that we are restricted to the same spells as any other job subbing either WHM or RDM (i.e. Cure IV). However, I do understand that giving RDM even Cure V, would make us competitive (over-competitive?) with WHM again. That doesn't seem like something SE wants, though I'm not sure why, given the current state of WHM (which I also play) it doesn't seem like giving RDM (and SCH) Cure V would make much difference. It's hard to compete with near instant cures and a nigh unlimited MP pool. I can see that RDM would have fast cures too, but spamming Cure V would deplete our MP pool pretty quick, SCH (with Cure V) would probably be a more competitive healer (though I don't have any first hand experience with the job).

No, Cure V has absolutely nothing to do with why RDM isn't a primary healer, it's the lack of Curaga III / IV. Cure IV is the best heal in the game, you can easily get 850 with it and a good set will push you past 900. With RDM it will have a really low cast / recast. Cure III will do 400~500 on it's own and RDM can get 5+ minutes on it's party buffs along with a stupid amount of MP recovery without external support. RDM has everything it needs to support a single or possible two melee's, but anymore and game mechanics prevent you from healing faster.

[Zekander]

Saying Cure IV is the best heal in the game is an obvious exaggeration, but I understand your point. Like I said, my biggest problem is that any job can gain access to it. So RDM healing really is nothing special, a BRD can heal almost as well (high refresh, same gear options, etc. though obviously their cures would be slightly slower). We seem to agree that giving RDM (and SCH) access to Cure V would change nothing, so it seems like a reasonable thing to ask for. However, none of this is relevant to the topic of this thread, how can SE make RDM a frontline job?

Personally, I would like to see a powerful debuff attached to our en-spells (perhaps in the form of a tier III en-spell). Tier II en-spells could be fixed, but their debuff only affects mage jobs, it would be nice to see a set with a melee friendly debuff (perhaps def/eva down, or maybe something more unique like DT+).

[Dale]

No, Cure V has absolutely nothing to do with why RDM isn't a primary healer, it's the lack of Curaga III / IV. Cure IV is the best heal in the game, you can easily get 850 with it and a good set will push you past 900. With RDM it will have a really low cast / recast. Cure III will do 400~500 on it's own and RDM can get 5+ minutes on it's party buffs along with a stupid amount of MP recovery without external support. RDM has everything it needs to support a single or possible two melee's, but anymore and game mechanics prevent you from healing faster.

Yeah I agree. It's our lack of a strong area heal that holds us back and allows the White Mage to surpass us. But considering White Mage is suppose to be the best healer in the game - I can understand it and live with it.

[Kuroganashi]

RDM can do Front line as long as they don't "SUCK"

in other words............. Keep PT Alive (HEAL) , ENFEEBLE enemy , Buff PT , Dispell enemy , Nuke Enemy.

Keep all those up + DD

I myself and several other RDM in my LS manage to do that (you won't have a SINGLE Second to Rest , however that is what RDM is all about........ ^^ Have fun)

[Dale]

RDM can do Front line as long as they don't "SUCK"

in other words............. Keep PT Alive (HEAL) , ENFEEBLE enemy , Buff PT , Dispell enemy , Nuke Enemy.

Keep all those up + DD

I myself and several other RDM in my LS manage to do that (you won't have a SINGLE Second to Rest , however that is what RDM is all about........ ^^ Have fun)

I guess it depends what you mean when you say front line. If you mean that to be tanking - then I think that complicates our ability to use all our resources. But I do think we can make decent make-shift tanks.

If you mean it to say melee then I concur. I think the job already has all the tools it needs to melee and function as an effective support job at the same time. So I think SE has done a really good job at re-tooling this class into being an actual fighter/mage.

[Kuroganashi]

I guess it depends what you mean when you say front line. If you mean that to be tanking - then I think that complicates our ability to use all our resources. But I do think we can make decent make-shift tanks.

If you mean it to say melee then I concur. I think the job already has all the tools it needs to melee and function as an effective support job at the same time. So I think SE has done a really good job at re-tooling this class into being an actual fighter/mage.

I see way too many noob RDM that want to DD and end up never healing or doing their proper job, I don't have a problem with a RDM in Front Line, however I expect them to do their job 100% that is all I am saying.

SEI made RDM Tough enough they can solo NMs and even Survive some of the 119 shit

I seen a RDM Tank Delve BOSS np !

I seen RDM Tank Unity NM also w/o dying or losing any major HP !

I seen a RDM Do shit that ppl would go WILD if they could (I.E. solo VW Shit , Unity , Delve NMs)

it is all about how you play it. and how much you are used to it.

I personally use Shield / Sword

But I been seeing RDM/DNC trying to do shit and fail...... wonder why. :P

[Dale]

I see way too many noob RDM that want to DD and end up never healing or doing their proper job, I don't have a problem with a RDM in Front Line, however I expect them to do their job 100% that is all I am saying.

SEI made RDM Tough enough they can solo NMs and even Survive some of the 119 shit

I seen a RDM Tank Delve BOSS np !

I seen RDM Tank Unity NM also w/o dying or losing any major HP !

I seen a RDM Do shit that ppl would go WILD if they could (I.E. solo VW Shit , Unity , Delve NMs)

it is all about how you play it. and how much you are used to it.

I personally use Shield / Sword

But I been seeing RDM/DNC trying to do shit and fail...... wonder why. :P

Yeah I don't disagree with you. They can accomplish just about any role they want and the job itself has amazing potential and versatility.

I was just trying to point out that it can be difficult to be both tank and support. That's hard to pull off. But we can easily slide into the melee/support role. I think that's where we shine brightest.

[Zekander]

Once again, RDM is not the only job capable of doing those things, and many jobs can do so more effectively. And even if RDM were so divinely perfect as your opinion of it seems to be, that shouldn't stop us from asking for more. Please stop holding the rest of us mortal mages back.

[Protey]

RDM can do Front line as long as they don't "SUCK"

in other words............. Keep PT Alive (HEAL) , ENFEEBLE enemy , Buff PT , Dispell enemy , Nuke Enemy.

Keep all those up + DD

I myself and several other RDM in my LS manage to do that (you won't have a SINGLE Second to Rest , however that is what RDM is all about........ ^^ Have fun)


I disagree with the curing the party part. Assist cure, yes that I would agree with. Main heal? no way, not unless it is designated before hand, and then you aren't going to be meleeing because you're going to have to be in refresh gear and have ballads or some other kind of mp recovery buffs over melee buffs. Obviously if the whm dies, then yes you would take over as main healer, but then you stop meleeing at that point too. It's the same with being backup tank. you stop doing other things to hold the NM while the PLD recovers. This requires that others have a bit of sense though. They need to stop hitting the mob as RDM doesn't have much in the way of hate gaining tools. When in this situation, I would have the WHM stop curing the DDs and the DDs stop hitting. I would cure the DDs until I have hate. Then I turtle up and wait for the PLD to recover.

Also, if you're meleeing, why would you be nuking? I can understand on Laevvid to cast a water nuke every 1000 TP to make it take melee damage, but other than that why would you nuke when meleeing? By definition you can't do them at the same time.

[Demonjustin]

I disagree with the curing the party part.

Also, if you're meleeing, why would you be nuking?You took the words right outta my mouth. The rest we can cover, but those two are kinda impossible to do while on the front lines, the latter is really more an "either or" rather than an "as well as".

[Dale]

You took the words right outta my mouth. The rest we can cover, but those two are kinda impossible to do while on the front lines, the latter is really more an "either or" rather than an "as well as".

It's not that hard to melee then switch into nuke gear to magic burst off a skill chain for example - which I think is in sync with the job's design. So I don't understand why you don't think Red Mage can nuke while on the front lines. Why can't they?

Even the Red Mage specific sword in Port Jueno has magic damage on it. So I'd say SE intended for the Red Mage to mix it up with melee and elemental magic. Though I'll admit its effectiveness is pretty situational. But most things are.

[Demonjustin]

I admittedly have never tried MBing off of SCs while using my blades, so I can't say how effective it'd be. My issue with nuking while meleeing at all is the fact that I'd never gimp my meleeing that I'll do on every target the entire time simply to increase MB DMG in the event I were to pull them off here and there. Currently so far as weaponry goes I use Excalibur/Buramenk'Ah, neither of which have MDMG, and even once I have my Mythic I'll likely still be without a MDMG weapon.

We have some decent options for MDMG but they require a fairly decent sacrifice of melee damage to the point of which I don't feel it's worth the return. Honestly I wish they put MDMG on a lot more melee weapons, it'd make a strategy like that much more viable, instead right now we have a total of 3 Swords and 1 Dagger that offer MDMG, almost all of which fall quite a bit short of what other weapons offer for simply melee damage. Were that issue fixed, I'd say the issue overall may fall away a bit, but for now it's fairly restricting and to a point of which I just can't see the sacrifice being generally worthwhile.

All of that said, something else that would be nice in that family of thought would be to have an ability to self skillchain. Were we capable of doing that, it'd give more access to this method of nuking while meleeing. Having to rely on a party to do something specific is part of why I'm not sure I'd be willing to make the concessions necessary to get that extra MDMG. Something that would allow us to add skillchain elements to our spells for a single spell every minute or two along the same lines as the SCH JA would be a great fix to that.

[Protey]

All of that said, something else that would be nice in that family of thought would be to have an ability to self skillchain. Were we capable of doing that, it'd give more access to this method of nuking while meleeing. Having to rely on a party to do something specific is part of why I'm not sure I'd be willing to make the concessions necessary to get that extra MDMG. Something that would allow us to add skillchain elements to our spells for a single spell every minute or two along the same lines as the SCH JA would be a great fix to that.

sounds like BLU's Chain Affinity.

[Demonjustin]

Yep, similar to that too. We just need it to be able to make Lv.3s and it'd be fine.

[Zekander]

It would be nice if we could improve RDM without simply stealing abilities from other jobs. Some new RDM-only spells would be good, and the devs already implied that there might be new spells coming via job points, what they are and how effective they might be is up for debate. Some improvements to the elemental magic system would indirectly help RDM, which has also been mentioned by the devs. Unfortunately we probably can't expect much more then that, it's always nice to dream though.

[Raydeus]

If you ask me all SE needs to do is give us access to all the gear we should be able to use and that we get left out from because reasons. For quick reference I'm mainly talking about gear/weapons that THF and BLU can use but RDM can't even though it would make sense for us to be able to. That and the usual B+ Dagger/Sword skill and Shield skill C+ instead of F of course.

Other than that we don't really need more than we already have IMO.



PS > And just to clarify I'm not talking about getting access to ALL of THF and BLU gear, but about the types of items we have access to at lower levels but are magically unable to use at higher levels for no good reason other than holding the job back.

[AtrixWolfe]

My take on Red Mages has always been since the days they got refresh, in those days the only ones with phalanx, and able to cast weaker spells but faster. It honestly annoyed me that any good exp party had to have either a rdm or a brd because they were the only two with refresh like abilities so you didn't have to worry about downtime and could push the pulls hard and fast. I don't know where in the line of things RDM went astray but I always thought that core identity... one of using magic to close the gaps of the places they lack... was the core identity of rdm. Lack dmg on melee? Use an en-spell. Lack tanking power? Use phalanx. Lack magic power or area effect buffs? Cast faster and have convert and refresh to make it so you have more mana resources. That was perfect. But also aggravating because RDM became too needed to do well and drowned other jobs out.

Now with WHM's that never go oom, who needs a refresh. Or a convert. It made whm's useful again but it drowned rdm's utility that it was sought for. And alot go scholar anyway for sublimation and faster cast times. And scholars out specialize rdm in casting time and fast cast gear is very easy to cap. Which pretty much made rdm's chainspell not so great anymore as well as their fast cast trait. Gear is too loaded and too much of the rdm unique powers are now common place, to the point rdm's only remaining gig is their unique spells and the fact they have it all in one package. But it isn't enough. I always felt having rdm as more a mage than a melee was smart. Red mages aren't red fighters, they're red mages... they use swords instead of staves and have black and white magic both. If it weren't for mp not being an issue anymore, and fast cast being so prevalent, I think rdm would still have a valid identity that was not drowned out. Because right now it is drowned out. And that wasn't the case. As power level increases it becomes harder and harder to know what to give to each job to the point it feels like at some point everyone has everything and then what's even the point anymore. Either SE has to take away all the ridiculous fast cast gear and unlimited mana pools which would piss off a ton of people, or give RDM a unique set of skills and identity back and make content harder again.

[Dettz]

RDM gets access to some of the best weapons in game. To say it's not a frontline job is a slap in the face. With the correct tweaks you can go toe to toe with the higher parsed jobs np.

[Jakuk]

Erm the last post was 2 years ago, the game was quite different then.

[Raydeus]

I hope someday they at least add Temper II and that it gives triple attack instead of double. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

[Nyarlko]

I hope someday they at least add Temper II and that it gives triple attack instead of double. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Or perhaps allow Temper to target party members... <_<;;

[Songen]

I hope someday they at least add Temper II and that it gives triple attack instead of double. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

they did add temper II, its a job point spell, and it does give triple attack

[Jakuk]

they did add temper II, its a job point spell, and it does give triple attack

That was sarcasm.

[Folken]

That was sarcasm.

I didn't get it either.

[Thorva]

I have been in a debate with people about rdm as a front line job (DD) for a while, I know for a fact rdm can DD, I have done it. I have kept up with AG mythic sam, aeonic blu, empy drk, mythic thf, aeonic thf, the list goes on.

Rdm is seriously on the verge of being way over powered, the dmg really isn't that bad and SE has to be extra careful on the gear they give rdm or it will become bandwagon on dps.

The only things rdm really needed was m.acc bonus which was addressed with the Feb update, outside that they need to increase the potency of dia/bio, poison, para, slow and make mythic worthwhile. As it stands there is literally zero reason for rdm mythic outside convert and we get convert bonus in gifts, only 1 self cure away from being topped off.

[Shiyo]

RDM DD is pretty good because savage blade is a HORRIBLY broken weapon skill.

[Urmom]

Don't forget Dragon kick!

[elqplau]

Dagger on rdm? The afternoon weapon is sword not dagger ,not stave, nor club.im ilvl119 maxed and mastered was top notched and the only thing I can do is "grab hate" after that my job goes to because all the merits/master that I've done makes no difference if my capped ablities don't stay on.stoneskin wears in one hit blink is gone in one hit it's like being a newborn once more gimped with no capped Skills u don't care that I don't do as much damage as a melee or blm or heal like a sch/when but damn I'd like to be able to survive a fight without a party of 18 to keep me alive.thats what makes me angry .I'm not a back line rdm I never was.the first 6 starter jobs has rdm.it was front line till pld so what changed?

[Zekander]

I've always been a fan of melee RDM but I did feel it was still pretty far behind the traditional DD jobs. That is, until I started farming Omen for Swarts.

I happen to have TH augments on Chironic gear, so I just started farming on RDM (since I don't have THF leveled). On an average run, solo with trusts, I clear the zone with about 10 minutes left on the timer (my best time so far is 13 minutes). I recently leveled RUN and decided I should start collecting cards for upgrades and I found that I was unable to even clear the first room without timing out (my RUN gear isn't the best but it's not terrible I think, using Montante +1 and well augmented herc for DDing). I was like... huh... guess RDM isn't that bad after all.

After that I tested some of my other jobs just to see how they compared. NIN timed out at panopts. DRG was just barely able to clear with less then 5 minutes on the clock. My SAM is pretty well geared and still only managed to clear with 15 minutes left.

This raised my opinion of melee RDM significantly. I realize a large part is due to the recent composure buff (having my enspells hit almost as hard as the physical attack is a huge boost) and that Omen is not exactly the best comparison (the mobs are relatively weak), I've also meleed in Dynamis D up to wave 2 and on Neak in lowman groups and felt that I was at least contributing decently (with BRD and GEO support), but it's harder to make a comparison there without certain *ahem* assistance...

I would still like to see RDM get some further help in this area though, at this point mainly just in gearsets. It would be great to have another set like Ayanmo but with the stats switched around on different pieces so we could mix and match. It would also be nice to see some sort of native attack buff, Saber spell maybe? And for the love of god fix enspell IIs or just go ahead and delete them!

[TullemoreAsuraFFXI]

https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Category:Ambuscade_Rewards
Jhakri Armor Set +2 has high amounts of accuracy and attack for a "mage" armor set.
Itemization choices are immense for RDM, seek and you will find. One thing i find lacking that could be added is access to +fencer bonus for equipment RDM is tagged for.
Sub job choice makes a huge difference on un-specialized jobs: /sch /whm /blm will be vastly different than using /war /drk /sam as a sub job selection if your intent is more physical offense.

[Meril]

I don't think supersun plays ffxi.