Development Team Downsizing and Justification Makes no Sense

[SylphThor]

In the most recent Final Fantasy XI digest we were told that the current developers have been using 20-year-old software to produce new content. It was also mentioned that this sets the 'limit' to the Voracious Resurgence. The reasons for the downsizing given to us was because the devs are using 20-year-old development equipment and also they want to move onto other projects to expand their horizons.

What doesn't make sense is why not just purchase new development hardware/software? It doesn't have to be 'end of the line' equipment, or to the extent to make a remake, just to make the current devs (if they don't hire new ones) make better use of their time. One would assume that this would be more efficient than the dinosaur hardware and software they've been using. This would also give the current devs 'newer' software to learn, and expand their horizons (albeit on the same game). Additionally, they could always hire new developers to replace them who are already trained on said new hardware/software.

Given we are going to get the servers replaced with newer ones (because they are too old and might break), it makes me wonder why not do the same thing with the developer hardware and/or software, or at least some aspects of it?

In terms of financing such an endeavor, they could easily use the current 'cash cow' of 14 to fund this, much like they used the former 'cash cow' of 11, after they fail-bombed the original release of 14 and had to remake the entire game.

And I really believe at this point in time, the technology to do some sort of 'remake' at least in part to some systems would not longer be some sort of 'insurmountable' task like we've heard many times before. Spaghetti code or not, when you can teleport energy on the quantum level from one point in space time to another, it really makes you wonder if the original coding poses that much of a complication any longer?

[Voidstorm]

Agreed, the point about devs wanting to move games seems tone deaf as well.
This is because it doesn't mean the DEVs want to learn to make the newest games, it means the management plans to fire them if they don't.
The easiest thing in the world is just working on the same platform you're used to from hiring all the way to retirement.

Also in regard to a remake, yeah. This isn't just some random standalone MMO they released. It's a numbered FF game. One of Square's flagship titles. They NEED to make sure the game remains open just to show that their company isn't close to going belly up.

[Pixela]

Imagine you're in charge of XI, you have a limited budget (most of which goes on wages) and Square won't fund above and beyond what you currently get allocated.

What would you do if you wanted to keep it running, given also that the ps2 devkits recently broke?

>move most of the developers off the project for a while to save money on wages
>use that money to fund a new dev kit or dev kit emulator for pc from a 3rd party company
>developers come back when done

I dunno if this is what is happening, and they will never admit it if they are but it possible that is what they are upto.

[Sueno]

My guess would be: with the global recession coming they are trying to keep the devs they have. The more a dev knows; the more they can be shifted to other projects and not get laid off. It keeps them in house so they can be shifted back, and not have a learning curve, if they decide to ramp up another project in the future for XI. Also if they do decide to do a remake; the devs will have the knowledge of the new technology to better transfer what they know about the original to the new game. With the out of control pandemic spending most companies did in the last few years, they are scaling back and laying off the people they can do without. If you were one of these devs you would want the opportunity to learn more and make yourself more valuable to the company; instead of polishing off your resume.

[DoctooOkay]

As I recall they are severly limited due to the dev team needing PS2 dev kits, which have not been manufactured for a very long time, so there are vanishingly few PS2 kits around. Even when they cut over to PC only they weren't able to de-couple things like the PlayOnline launcher, which kept everything chained to hardware that was already at least 10 years old and becomming difficult to find.

Personally I think devs wanting to move on from this game is legit. Even when I've been working on projects that I love there is a point where I just want to move on to something new.

[Uriah]

Don't accept excuses. Any pc can be turned into a ps2 devkit.

They've been feeding you that nonsense for a decade because you don't know better. Like it's some magical device that can't ever be fixed or replicated. It's not.

[Alhanelem]

Don't accept excuses. Any pc can be turned into a ps2 devkit.
since you're claiming this, I'm assuming you've developed some PS2 software then?

If not, kindly stop posting, becuase you have no idea what you're talking about.


Far as the topic: There is nothing nonsensical about what they said. Their conclusions are rational and justified, and I can relate to them. I myself have been involved developmentally with one particular game for over a decade at this point. that game was developed on Unreal Engine 3 in its early days. Now Unreal Engine 5 is hitting the market. I've barely had any chance to learn the new stuff in UE4 and I don't really know a darn thing about UE5. This really hinders my prospects of getting a job even though I have extensive engine experience, some of which does still translate to newer iterations (I just don't know the NEW stuff). Because I'm STILL involved with that project, I'm still making UE3 content. It really is holding me back, but I'm doing it because that game still has an actiave community and they want new content.

For all the doomsday sayers: Frankly, this should have happened like 10 years ago, you shouldn't be surprised that it's happening, nor should you be upset. FFXI has had an amazing run and in spite of this, it is still not over. We will still be getting new features and updates. And while they're probably not doing it, there's still the possibility they could remaster it under a new engine, streamline some of the clunkiness, etc. etc. and get some pretty decent sales with it if they ever decide to do that.

FFXI is one of the longest running live-service games ever made, in a world today where such games are being shutdown left and right, FFXI is still going, and they're clearly committed to keeping it going.

[Uriah]

https://github.com/ps2dev/ps2dev


Main PS2 Repo for building the whole PS2 Development environment in your local machine.

This program will automatically build and install the whole compiler and other tools used in the creation of homebrew software for the Sony PlayStation® 2 videogame system.

[Alhanelem]

Okay, but really, the issue is less the hardware itself (There may be legal ramifications for them using something like that thing which I will ignore for the sake of argument) and more the software being dated. As he was explaining in the video, the option they had considered was new tools and middleware (e.g. specialized software that performs specific tasks on behalf of the game engine etc- FFXIV for example, uses a kind of middleware known as a wrapper to easliy enable the game to run on MacOS without having to rewrite the engine code to use calls to the Mac OS' graphics subsystems instead of the DirectX that is used by Windows- I think FFXI uses a wrapper for the PS2 graphics systems to work on PC, but I'm not pretending I know the details of how it works).

Making the PS2 dev environment run on a PC doesn't address the issues of continuing to devleop a game in 2023 using tools designed in 2003 or earlier.

[Uriah]

Uh huh. Here's your humble pie.
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d6/c6/fb/d6c6fb26f148437fe52f70be349777b4.png

[Pixela]

Making the PS2 dev environment run on a PC doesn't address the issues of continuing to devleop a game in 2023 using tools designed in 2003 or earlier.

It's nowhere near as complicated to make new dev tools as you think it is, your viewpoint is skewed by Unreal Engine 3 and this is nothing like that.

They just need to make standalone programs on the PC (players have been doing this since 2004 on a smaller scale) that have a user interface to allow devs to make content and spit out files XI understands, it's really not anywhere near as hard as you think it is.

They don't need to replicate ps2 devkits.

[Tarmarkvar]

I'm lost. Didn't they completely stop using the PS2 dev kits in 2016 when they stopped supporting console versions of this game?

[Alhanelem]

It's nowhere near as complicated to make new dev tools as you think it is, your viewpoint is skewed by Unreal Engine 3 and this is nothing like that.It is absolutely a lot like that. Tools are tools. UE3 is an engine with tools. The devs built their own game engine and used tools designed to build PS2 era games. It's exactly the same thing. The fact that the community has made various tools is irrelevant. Those tools weren't used to develop the game, they were used to develop things that can interact with it. They were also made by people in their spare time, not as a career, so while many of the people involved in various community tools and such probably are professional developers, they developed these tools you refer to with far less time and resources, and the standards of professional development demand more than that.

And the other issue is one that the devs explained- By keeping their developers on the project full time, they are limiting their growth as developers by forcing them to keep working with old technology. Now, this isn't always bad, if you know how to program in FORTRAN you're probably making a lot of money working on antiquated computer equipment still being used by the federal government. But game development tends to stay on the bleeding edge of technology, so it generally isn't great for career prospects to be a master at working with a 20 year old game engine.



I'm lost. Didn't they completely stop using the PS2 dev kits in 2016 when they stopped supporting console versions of this game? No. The game was originally developed on and for the PS2. To make the game work on PC they basically used a wrapper to translate PS2 stuff to PC. They still need tools designed for the original game unless they rebuild the entire thing essentially from the ground up. So while not being on console means they can exceed certain limitations (especially memory and disk space), it does not mean they aren't still bound by antiquated development systems, tools and processes.

[DoctooOkay]

They just need to make standalone programs on the PC (players have been doing this since 2004 on a smaller scale) that have a user interface to allow devs to make content and spit out files XI understands, it's really not anywhere near as hard as you think it is.

I've worked in software long enough to know that the gap between what needs to be done and actually having the team, tools, and budget in place to execute is large. I expect that Fujito is making decisions based on the budget he's been given and what he feels are the best steps to ensure FFXI stays online. Whether or not you or I agree with that is a different matter all together (and frankly is kind of moot)

[Pixela]

Which is why they don't state they are doing it even if they are.

[Alhanelem]

But you can't simply assume they are doing this or that without them saying so, and why you really need to stop just assuming the worst every time some sort of development related news breaks.

[Sp1cyryan]

But you can't simply assume they are doing this or that without them saying so, and why you really need to stop just assuming the worst every time some sort of development related news breaks.

Most of what they do is assume.

[Pixela]

A lot of what Fujito is saying is so outrageous if I were to accept it at face value I would finally unsub and go install Lost Ark.

So yes I'm making some assumptions they are not being as anti customer as they are appearing to be.

I don't like to throw money away, I like to think I'm paying for something. When I pay money I'm paying towards the salary of the developers who are working on the game, if they are all being moved to something else what am I paying for now then?

Am I paying purely to access the game now? ok then why does that justify full price sub since costs have drastically reduced?

I refuse to believe Fujito is being that cavalier with people that have supported the game this long, to just pile our money up in the corner and use none of it on the game from here on out. They have to be doing something with it.

[Tarmarkvar]

Given that the price of the subscription has remained unchanged since 2002, while inflation has made everything else more expensive, I'd say they ARE reducing the cost of the subscription. By all rights, if it had kept up with inflation, a subscription with 1 character should cost $20 a month now.

[Alhanelem]

So yes I'm making some assumptions they are not being as anti customer as they are appearing to be.Except they aren't being anti customer at all, you're just letting your imagination run wild.

[Voidstorm]

Which is why they don't state they are doing it even if they are.
then they never should have mentioned that they were moving staff off FFXI.

[Pixela]

then they never should have mentioned that they were moving staff off FFXI.

True, nothing they are doing makes sense at face value.

I think they are upto something, we will see though.

[Sp1cyryan]

True, nothing they are doing makes sense at face value.

I think they are upto something, we will see though.

It's almost painful to watch this line of reasoning.

[Alhanelem]

It's almost painful to watch this line of reasoning.
I still don't like how you stood against me on the wiki. But I'm liking you a little bit more with each passing post. :p

True, nothing they are doing makes sense at face value.

I think they are upto something, we will see though.
I'm pretty sure you aren't taking the correct meaning from their post.

[Pixela]

If it's not this, it's the developers starving ff14 of content by moving all the developers off so they can work on ff16.

It's crazy how this company and division deals with buisness, it's like they don't care that ff14 is floundering as long as they can have fun making ff16. Then if that does well they will make more single player games and ff14 will get even less content than it already does.

[Sirmarki]

then they never should have mentioned that they were moving staff off FFXI.

I'm speculating of course, but it may just be the people who worked on TVR.

Just think, it takes a lot of directing, animating, story writing and imaginations/resources to produce video/cut scenes.

I mean, I used to make YouTube videos and writing the scripts took enough time up alone.

[Pixela]

Square are just not a very well run company at all levels.

To use World of Warcraft as an example (or at a lesser level, runescape, everquest, Eve online etc), WoW and is almost as old as XI but becasue it's a successful product they invest money into it to keep it as successful as possible and as their most important title. They invest in a proven success instead of constantly looking for something new to work on.

Square Enix will hit gold with guaranteed successes and get bored and look to do something else all the time.

With FF11 for example, they could invest into the game and make it far more profitable with regular expansions and increased player numbers but they just don't want to invest into it, and would rather do the bare minimum and then throw money into new projects with almost no chance of success. They are using the same devkits 20 years later, they could of upgraded these any time in the past 20 years and refused to do so.

With FF14 they do the bare minimum there too, there is very little excitement with the devs to make new content for that game and almost all the creatives in that division have spent the last few years and the next couple to come working on ff16. To the detriment of 14, why on earth would you allow your developers to move off ff14 if it's doing so well? This is how the company is though.

It's insane how they operate, I can't ever imagine the people working on wow going off to work on some new game that might flop or complaining cause they are working on a 20 year old development systems they just give 100% to wow. They are just happy to have a job they enjoy, that's making money.

It's like they get bored and want to chase a new butterfly constantly.

[Zehira]

It's 2023, I've noticed they are slowly moving FF14 from being a MMORPG to a single player version so you won't feel forced to play with other players anymore. It's all about enjoying the game whether by yourself or with others. That's all that matters.

[Sp1cyryan]

I still don't like how you stood against me on the wiki. But I'm liking you a little bit more with each passing post. :p

I don't recall the exact context of that, but I assume it was about how one day Cloepdia will be gone and we should collectively work on a single resource or something. Not that it matters, just the comment was made and I don't even remember because lol.


Square are just not a very well run company at all levels.

There you go, /thread. you've said enough and can be satisfied enough to stop, right?

[Pixela]

I don't recall the exact context of that, but I assume it was about how one day Cloepdia will be gone and we should collectively work on a single resource or something. Not that it matters, just the comment was made and I don't even remember because lol.

1.You aren't trustworthy enough to be running the only resource for ffxi, given recent developments.
2.Spite is one of your primary drives to do anything.

https://i.imgur.com/eBrfZM4.jpg

[DoctooOkay]

I am curious, how does someone spitefully maintain a wiki?

[Dragoy]

I'm speculating of course, but it may just be the people who worked on TVR.

I don't know about the others, but the story writer seems to have been Yaeko Sato, who also did the Windurst missions and some other things I can't find my notes on right now... and they've also been working on X|V already as well.

All in all, I imagine it might just be Fujito going forward now...

[Sp1cyryan]

1.You aren't trustworthy enough to be running the only resource for ffxi, given recent developments.
2.Spite is one of your primary drives to do anything.

https://i.imgur.com/eBrfZM4.jpg

Recent developments? Lol

Even if I were to do something out of spite. Does that mean it's a negative result? No, not at all.

[Pixela]

Someone in your position should not be promoting things that damage the game, which you do.

[Sirmarki]

Someone in your position should not be promoting things that damage the game, which you do.

I'm going to be nosey now. What does Spicy promote?

[DoctooOkay]

I believe this has something to do with Cat's Eye being on their podcast recently.

[Alhanelem]

1.You aren't trustworthy enough to be running the only resource for ffxi, given recent developments.Uhhhh.... he doesnt run the only resource for FFXI? Most popular maybe, buit far from the only.



I don't recall the exact context of that, but I assume it was about how one day Cloepdia will be gone and we should collectively work on a single resource or something. Not that it matters, just the comment was made and I don't even remember because lol.
Ballista

[Sp1cyryan]

Someone in your position should not be promoting things that damage the game, which you do.

You sound like Lindart12/RadialArcana now. Lol.


I believe this has something to do with Cat's Eye being on their podcast recently.

I've mentioned them. They haven't been on.

[DoctooOkay]

I've mentioned them. They haven't been on.

nah nah nah, that doesn't add up. I have distinctly heard many people say that you and the Cat's Eye devs were actively plotting sabatoging Retail for your own personal gain.

I'm on to you and your games Sp1cy. If that is even your real name.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Ftenor.com%2Fview%2Fcat-watching-you-cartoon-anime-gif-8126276&psig=AOvVaw1LJOsoxcJJh_RCpTQnTz7m&ust=1681226250089000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CBAQjRxqFwoTCIDpsL7On_4CFQAAAAAdAAAAABAE

[Teraniku]

there's still the possibility they could remaster it under a new engine, streamline some of the clunkiness, etc. etc. and get some pretty decent sales with it if they ever decide to do that.

FFXI is one of the longest running live-service games ever made, in a world today where such games are being shutdown left and right, FFXI is still going, and they're clearly committed to keeping it going.

Personally they should port it over to XIV's Engine, Which would get the entire MMO development team working on the same game engine. If they can keep the worlds separate with their own levelling systems etc. The big issue would be how much would current players be able to keep if they can transfer their characters to the new updated game. Would be a bonus if you could hop between Vana'diel and Eorzea, and it would mean you'd be able to continue Vana'diel's storyline. Probably a significant cost issue to do so but I can see adavantages to doing that (Plus a unified sub fee and no more POL)

[Alhanelem]

Would be a bonus if you could hop between Vana'diel and Eorzea, and it would mean you'd be able to continue Vana'diel's storyline. Probably a significant cost issue to do so but I can see adavantages to doing that (Plus a unified sub fee and no more POL) Funny you should mention that because this idea was floated very, very early on in FFXIV"s development, around the time they revealed that FFXIV would have similar races such that people could recreate their avatars if they wanted to. The idea was there'd be a portal in your mog house that would take you to FFXIV's world, which would load up the other game, and you could go back and forth. This idea was scrapped pretty quickly however as unfeasible.

[Sp1cyryan]

nah nah nah, that doesn't add up. I have distinctly heard many people say that you and the Cat's Eye devs were actively plotting sabatoging Retail for your own personal gain.

I'm on to you and your games Sp1cy. If that is even your real name.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Ftenor.com%2Fview%2Fcat-watching-you-cartoon-anime-gif-8126276&psig=AOvVaw1LJOsoxcJJh_RCpTQnTz7m&ust=1681226250089000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CBAQjRxqFwoTCIDpsL7On_4CFQAAAAAdAAAAABAE

I've just been made into an NPC on Cats Eye. The sabotage of retail is now complete.

[Pixela]

You know what? I hope it's true and not a joke, because it's hilarious and makes you and them both look like pathetic losers.

Please post a picture of it, I need a laugh.

[Sp1cyryan]

You know what? I hope it's true and not a joke, because it's hilarious and makes you and them both look like pathetic losers.

Please post a picture of it, I need a laugh.

Log on and head to the top of the AH in Lower Jeuno. It is wearing the Guide Beret.

But you know, that's not very nice. Unlike you, we are very content with being "pathetic losers" and have a good time.

You see all that work on BG making server pages? Guess the Devs should have not snubbed it when recognizing official player resources!:D

[Pixela]

Post a picture in the BG thread of your npc, I won't even say anything else about you at all.

Unless you're ashamed of it or something? You're posting about it everywhere so let people see your glory?

[Tarmarkvar]

What is Cat's Eye?

This thread is like watching Infinity War without seeing any of the previous Marvel movies.

[Zenion]

What is Cat's Eye?

This thread is like watching Infinity War without seeing any of the previous Marvel movies.

It sounds like another of those private servers that hypothetically should be a big enough deal for SE to shut them down, but apparently aren't a big enough target to sic the lawyers on.

... you know, now that I think of it, why are private servers always like "old school 75 era teeth-pulling gameplay" or "like retail but pay us ten bucks for triple experience" or whatever? You'd think there'd be someone out there saying "yeah, retail's cool, but what if we added a new job and an endgame event or two?"

[Pixela]

If they put an effective statue in the game as a reward for him adding pages to the wiki, it will be one of the most cringe things I've ever heard of.

[Sp1cyryan]

What is Cat's Eye?

This thread is like watching Infinity War without seeing any of the previous Marvel movies.

https://www.bg-wiki.com/ffxi/Category:CatsEyeXI



If they put an effective statue in the game as a reward for him adding pages to the wiki, it will be one of the most cringe things I've ever heard of.

The NPC was because I suggested the idea. I was surprised, and thought it was cool. I also suspected what happen to your jimmies over it.

The wiki pages were completely of my own volition with no input or outside coordination over it's creation or construction. I like the team and overall community there. My time there between my retail static and Cats has been enjoyable and allows me to experience the game I enjoy at my leisure in a remixed environment that keeps improving.

Otherwise, oh please, I am sure you have heard of things more cringe. Certainly seen as well. Unless you are a vampire with no mirrors in your abode.

[Pixela]

Wow dude you're embarrassing, I through you were trolling but you're serious.

Enjoy your statue, hero of vanadiel lol

[Pixela]

Cringe npc thing aside, promotion is crass and should be beneath you.

[Sp1cyryan]

Cringe npc thing aside, promotion is crass and should be beneath you.

Why is that? When did I get so high and mighty all of a sudden?

[Alhanelem]

I generally disapprove of all unofficial servers because most people are just doing it to play for free. Yeah, like you said some people do keep their subs but for the most part, using private servers is detrimental to the game's continued existence. And sometimes I wonder if that's maybe the goal.

[Zehira]

lol HorizonXI reminded me a lot what Vana'diel is all about.

[Sp1cyryan]

lol HorizonXI reminded me a lot what Vana'diel is all about.

I don't doubt that at all. Good for you.

Privates can't replicate the experience retail has or had. Retail can't replicate the experience and community of a private server. This is a good dichotomy.

What needs to be understood is the true scope of financial opportunity for retail. Are the segment of players who wouldn't pay for either retail or a private server really some detriment to retail and it's longevity? No.
Is there a meaningful group of players who are not subbing to retail because of private servers? Maybe, but that missed the point of if that matters by leading the question the wrong direction. These players enjoyed something else more. It just so happened to be a different XI experience. This means that retail either wasn't going to continue occupying their attention and moot point. Or, players want to continue having that retail experience while subbed and the unique one of a private server.
Players like Pixela understandably put their hopes and dreams of continuing XI for as long as possible on others, but that is wrong to do. I can continue, but I think the point was made.

[Monsuta_Man]

SE's new FF title always take precedent over anything else; as XIV fans are finding out while getting a piece of that XI humble pie Uriah served out.

XI is a relic to them.

Been trying to get people to abandon XI for XIV for years, but many stick with XI or plain out quit to go play GTA, god of war, Elden ring or Sonic the Hedgehog.... or something.

[Alhanelem]

Been trying to get people to abandon XI for XIV for years, but many stick with XI or plain out quit to go play GTA, god of war, Elden ring or Sonic the Hedgehog.... or something.
That's simply not true, as the producer of FFXIV himself stepped in to keep the game going when its future was being debated.

[Sirmarki]

Smany stick with XI or plain out quit to go play GTA, god of war, Elden ring or Sonic the Hedgehog.... or something.

Maybe because they actually like playing it still, just maybe?

[Pixela]

The "new producer letter" was one of the most idiotic and demoralizing things I've read for a while, it was so bad and so disrespectful I wonder if that was the intent.

They aren't even promoting the content they have been working on for years that still has to come out to keep peoples morale up.


Players like Pixela understandably put their hopes and dreams of continuing XI for as long as possible on others, but that is wrong to do. I can continue, but I think the point was made.

I know how this goes, because I've been involved in these things for other games I cared about in the past. A lot of people don't understand the issues that await.

First of all the people running them have very limited ability to fix problems and add new things, they are vastly inferior to a proper experience at a core level because they are effectively a frankenstein monster. I know the "new car smell" can carry these issues short term, they start to grate long term.

Secondly a lot of the outside infrastructure is reliant on the proper service running, once the proper service stops you will see video card drivers no longer need to support many of the features it needs and fps and crash issues will run rampant, windows updates no longer need to support many features these 10-20 year old games need to run and the game that worked fine this morning will no longer start at all following a forced microsoft update. For tech heads this is less of a problem because they can block updates on drivers and windows but most people aren't tech heads. I could go on but you get the idea.

[Pixela]

That's simply not true, as the producer of FFXIV himself stepped in to keep the game going when its future was being debated.

There is an institutional problem at Square Enix.

The same mindset that lead to the letter from the XI producer last month, is already to be seen in the XIV studios. Which is why almost all the people working on XIV have been working on XVI and whatever follows that. Do you know how bad a sign it is for a large and successful team to suddenly start work on a AAA single player game instead of put all their attention into some new EXP or engine update?

The future for XIV is going along the same path XI took, they are no longer happy updating that 10 year old game. They want to work on new things. Working on a 10 year old engine is bad for their careers.

SE isn't run like other companies, where a success story is latched upon. They constantly want to re-invent the wheel, even if doing so makes no financial sense.

[Sp1cyryan]

The "new producer letter" was one of the most idiotic and demoralizing things I've read for a while, it was so bad and so disrespectful I wonder if that was the intent.

They aren't even promoting the content they have been working on for years that still has to come out to keep peoples morale up.



I know how this goes, because I've been involved in these things for other games I cared about in the past. A lot of people don't understand the issues that await.

First of all the people running them have very limited ability to fix problems and add new things, they are vastly inferior to a proper experience at a core level because they are effectively a frankenstein monster. I know the "new car smell" can carry these issues short term, they start to grate long term.

Secondly a lot of the outside infrastructure is reliant on the proper service running, once the proper service stops you will see video card drivers no longer need to support many of the features it needs and fps and crash issues will run rampant, windows updates no longer need to support many features these 10-20 year old games need to run and the game that worked fine this morning will no longer start at all following a forced microsoft update. For tech heads this is less of a problem because they can block updates on drivers and windows but most people aren't tech heads. I could go on but you get the idea.

The only idea I have gotten, and feel I am not alone in. Is that you don't actually "know how this goes." As is extremely evident in this and other posts and threads.

[Sirmarki]

SE isn't run like other companies, where a success story is latched upon. They constantly want to re-invent the wheel, even if doing so makes no financial sense.

Are you after a job as director?

[Zehira]

There is an institutional problem at Square Enix.

Yes... UwU

I remember I posted something similar in the other thread last year.


I think as Yoshi-P has stated somewhere their employees don't care if they are getting paid they don't want to work on this game.

[Alhanelem]

There is an institutional problem at Square Enix.

The same mindset that lead to the letter from the XI producer last month, is already to be seen in the XIV studios. Which is why almost all the people working on XIV have been working on XVI and whatever follows that. Do you know how bad a sign it is for a large and successful team to suddenly start work on a AAA single player game instead of put all their attention into some new EXP or engine update?

The future for XIV is going along the same path XI took, they are no longer happy updating that 10 year old game. They want to work on new things. Working on a 10 year old engine is bad for their careers.

SE isn't run like other companies, where a success story is latched upon. They constantly want to re-invent the wheel, even if doing so makes no financial sense.
If you were working in game devleopment, you would understand that you need to keep your skills sharp to stay relevant. You would also understand that even in the MMO world, interests change over time. Nothing lasts forever, and you really need to come to grips with that fact. FFXI has already lasted longer than nearly every other MMO on the market. SE is in many ways run like any other media company. Normal companies work to stay relevant because needs and wants of their customer base are always changing.

To you it might make total sense to keep throwing money at something forever and ever and ever, but there is diminishing returns on continued investment. Even WoW isn't completely immune to this. SE is a publicly traded business and such businessess need to please investors. Investors want to see a company constantly innovating and making new things to drive sales and thus increase company value and therefore the return on their investments. So that's what SE does.

[Pixela]

Lets use South Park as an analogy to make a point

They created the show in 1997 and it's still putting out shows today and still making good money, they updated the creation tools but it still looks the same and is pretty much the same thing but new stories. If the animators working on it are bored or want to go make the terminator, they replace them with new staff that do want to work on it.

If South Park was owned by Square Enix, they would of canceled it and replaced with with a hyper realstic CGI series cause the "animators" (in reality it's managerial) were bored of the old style and are excited about CGI. It would cost 30 million dollars an episode, take 6 months per episode, everyone would hate it, each flower pot in the background would have 100 billion polygons, they would cancel it in a year after burning 120 million dollars while 10 people watched and then make a new CGI series that cost 40 million an episode and that would fail again.

This is how Square Enix operate, they are so fixated with novelty, new tech and new audiences that they don't understand you should always nurture success and audiences you already have.

FFXI is 20 years old ps2 game, guess what? The players aren't going anywhere anytime soon, new players are still joining (who like grind / long term / old school - hi2u runescape / aesthetic) and it has plenty of profit growth potential with expansions and merch. A lot of people would come back for 5-6 months for an expansion too, so it's not even just the expansion box price that would make money but the sub price from booster player numbers after too.

With investment FFXI could carry on another 20-30 years easily and be updated all that time, and make good money doing it.

All they need to do is invest money into dev tools so people can keep making content etc, it's not even comparatively expensive to do compared to everything else they throw money at. As long as they just try to re-create what they NEED.

It does not matter if it's 20 year old tech if people like it and will pay to play it, also the devs want to keep working on it because they are XI fans and have stated they only got into game dev becasue they loved XI and wanted to work on it.

The entire problem is management.

They have burned money on countless games over the past few years that quickly died, and damaged their brand in the process as completely chaotic company. If they spent a fraction of that on XI dev tools it would of been guaranteed profits for the next 20+ years and it would be amazing PR to rebuild faith and love in the company.

-

Again the same thing is going to (and actually already is) happening with XIV where they are getting itchy feet and want to work on the newest AAA single player devil may cry clone.

The only reason they are still in business at all is because they have a loyal fanbase that keep bailing them out of every hole they jump into, but that are slowly getting sick and tired of their antics.

Everyone I know that used to be a Square Enix fan is now a fan of a specific thing they run, and hate the company. That is not good.

Most companies understand the value of a loyal fanbase and niche products, Square Enix understand nothing but chasing pretty butterflies.

They are running XI into the ground.
They are doing the same thing with XIV.
They ruined FF7 R in so many ways.
FF16 looks like a complete mess of mashed together ideas that will end up appealing to barely anyone.

I mean really.

TLDR: If people still like Chess, make more Chess boards and don't try make super intergalatic blackhole 4d chOss'.

[Voidstorm]

I see it from a company perspective as a flagship title game. They will need to spend money on it regardless of how they go about it.
Either they rebuild it as a solo RPG game that doesn't need servers so the title isn't simply lost to time, or they rebuild it so server costs will be negligible while keeping it a MMO.


This isn't a spinoff game or new standalone title that they could just get away with closing down servers and just #dead_game. That would break continuity of FFs 1~15 all still being available for play.
They have to choose how they keep this game around, not if they'll keep it around.

[Sirmarki]

I see it from a company perspective as a flagship title game. They will need to spend money on it regardless of how they go about it.
Either they rebuild it as a solo RPG game that doesn't need servers so the title isn't simply lost to time, or they rebuild it so server costs will be negligible while keeping it a MMO.

Of course, I'm not going to pretend like I know the ins and outs of it, but my understanding is that FFXI transfers very little data (I think it was designed for 56k connection, and remains that way) so the bandwidth/server cost should be relatively cheap (?).
Like I say, I'm speculating. I pay £79 per year for a server with unlimited transfer at high speeds/bandwidth in the UK.

As I said before, I just don't want it to be remembered as the game that got infested with bots.

[Zehira]

As I said before, I just don't want it to be remembered as the game that got infested with bots.

Unfortunately, this what will be. SE allowed bots to happen since 2017-2018. They wanted us to move to XIV.

[Pixela]

There are just as many bots on XIV.

[Alhanelem]

Lets use South Park as an analogy to make a point

Stopped reading there

[Pixela]

Maybe ask your mom to help you read it if you're having trouble.

[Voidstorm]

Of course, I'm not going to pretend like I know the ins and outs of it, but my understanding is that FFXI transfers very little data (I think it was designed for 56k connection, and remains that way) so the bandwidth/server cost should be relatively cheap (?).
Like I say, I'm speculating. I pay £79 per year for a server with unlimited transfer at high speeds/bandwidth in the UK.

As I said before, I just don't want it to be remembered as the game that got infested with bots.
You aren't wrong about that. I simply don't know if the servers can use modern hardware, if they can be emulated on modern hardware, or if they require legacy hardware. the 3rd of which would be an issue.

[Pixela]

They stated they had to replace all the servers for XI not long ago, and that the 32 bit server code was built in a way that it didn't fully take advantage of modern server tech. So they would of had to buy servers and run them way under capacity.

They now run multiple virtual operating systems on each new server simultaneously, this meant they needed to buy far fewer servers and it's cheaper to run than it ever has been before.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFqNtMJCVwY

57min

[Sp1cyryan]

Lets use South Park as an analogy to make a point

They created the show in 1997 and it's still putting out shows today and still making good money, they updated the creation tools but it still looks the same and is pretty much the same thing but new stories. If the animators working on it are bored or want to go make the terminator, they replace them with new staff that do want to work on it.

If South Park was owned by Square Enix, they would of canceled it and replaced with with a hyper realstic CGI series cause the "animators" (in reality it's managerial) were bored of the old style and are excited about CGI. It would cost 30 million dollars an episode, take 6 months per episode, everyone would hate it, each flower pot in the background would have 100 billion polygons, they would cancel it in a year after burning 120 million dollars while 10 people watched and then make a new CGI series that cost 40 million an episode and that would fail again.

This is how Square Enix operate, they are so fixated with novelty, new tech and new audiences that they don't understand you should always nurture success and audiences you already have.

FFXI is 20 years old ps2 game, guess what? The players aren't going anywhere anytime soon, new players are still joining (who like grind / long term / old school - hi2u runescape / aesthetic) and it has plenty of profit growth potential with expansions and merch. A lot of people would come back for 5-6 months for an expansion too, so it's not even just the expansion box price that would make money but the sub price from booster player numbers after too.

With investment FFXI could carry on another 20-30 years easily and be updated all that time, and make good money doing it.

All they need to do is invest money into dev tools so people can keep making content etc, it's not even comparatively expensive to do compared to everything else they throw money at. As long as they just try to re-create what they NEED.

It does not matter if it's 20 year old tech if people like it and will pay to play it, also the devs want to keep working on it because they are XI fans and have stated they only got into game dev becasue they loved XI and wanted to work on it.

The entire problem is management.

They have burned money on countless games over the past few years that quickly died, and damaged their brand in the process as completely chaotic company. If they spent a fraction of that on XI dev tools it would of been guaranteed profits for the next 20+ years and it would be amazing PR to rebuild faith and love in the company.

-

Again the same thing is going to (and actually already is) happening with XIV where they are getting itchy feet and want to work on the newest AAA single player devil may cry clone.

The only reason they are still in business at all is because they have a loyal fanbase that keep bailing them out of every hole they jump into, but that are slowly getting sick and tired of their antics.

Everyone I know that used to be a Square Enix fan is now a fan of a specific thing they run, and hate the company. That is not good.

Most companies understand the value of a loyal fanbase and niche products, Square Enix understand nothing but chasing pretty butterflies.

They are running XI into the ground.
They are doing the same thing with XIV.
They ruined FF7 R in so many ways.
FF16 looks like a complete mess of mashed together ideas that will end up appealing to barely anyone.

I mean really.

TLDR: If people still like Chess, make more Chess boards and don't try make super intergalatic blackhole 4d chOss'.

What even is this post besides pure fallacy?

[Pixela]

fallacy

reported, enjoy your ban

[Sp1cyryan]

reported, enjoy your ban

Lolwut...?

[Alhanelem]

reported, enjoy your ban
I don't think pointing out your failiure to use logical deduction correctly is a bannable offense.


Maybe ask your mom to help you read it if you're having trouble. The point was that your analogy is ridiculously flawed so I'm not going to read a bunch of lines about how you use a flawed comparison to come to a conclusion.

[Sirmarki]

Given the absolute nonsense that has been posted on these forums over the last week, I think SE should just close these forums down.

[Alhanelem]

It doesn't really have to be so ridiculous.

[Sp1cyryan]

Given the absolute nonsense that has been posted on these forums over the last week, I think SE should just close these forums down.

Oh, even better. Just close down all the English forums here.

[Tarmarkvar]

reported, enjoy your ban

LOL at the idea that anybody would be banned. I think Uriah's spam has disproven the hypothesis that there are any moderators here.

[Pixela]

I dunno if you were here years ago but they used to ban like demons, most people who used to post here were nuked over nothing.

Not sure why they had a zero tolerance policy but I note they stopped acting like that around the time they decided to re-invigorate XI and not just try push us all into XIV.

[Zehira]

lol Yes, many things have been changed after last years. I was not going to say shame on the UK for not recognizing our hard times during Trump era. I was feeling risky when some SE staff fell in love by “pushing them into XI more using my XIV screenshots.” That was enough and was just unfair that I was seemly the only one person who tried to cheer everyone up. As far as I know I have played with them once during a Primed for Adventure event, they are the nicest staff you have now. Me? I felt awkward that I was obviously breaking the rules and then I told them what those Goblin Bounty Hunters are for and that they are completely useless.

On the other side, I agree that these forums need to be closed down for good.

[Pixela]

Just stop using them if you don't like them.

[Sp1cyryan]

lol Yes, many things have been changed after last years. I was not going to say shame on the UK for not recognizing our hard times during Trump era. I was feeling risky when some SE staff fell in love by “pushing them into XI more using my XIV screenshots.” That was enough and was just unfair that I was seemly the only one person who tried to cheer everyone up. As far as I know I have played with them once during a Primed for Adventure event, they are the nicest staff you have now. Me? I felt awkward that I was obviously breaking the rules and then I told them what those Goblin Bounty Hunters are for and that they are completely useless.

On the other side, I agree that these forums need to be closed down for good.

I like how that whole thing was a paragraph of near incoherent gibberish. Only to reach an unrelated and sensible conclusion in the last sentence.

When you do the wrong math, but get the right answer anyway.

[Zehira]

I like how that whole thing was a paragraph of near incoherent gibberish. Only to reach an unrelated and sensible conclusion in the last sentence.

When you do the wrong math, but get the right answer anyway.

I knew anyone would say that. In reality, I speak only sign language. Obviously, it gotta hurt some British people' brains. When I type I have to think through my language first and it is clearly based on French syntax and grammar.

I was just sick of these forums sometimes but now everything is good so far it seems.

[Pixela]

You should change your name from spicyryan to blandryan.

[Sp1cyryan]

You should change your name from spicyryan to blandryan.

I already suggested a Bland Brian as an anti-Spicy Traveler NPC. Fingers crossed.

[Sirmarki]

lol Yes, many things have been changed after last years. I was not going to say shame on the UK for not recognizing our hard times during Trump era.

What on planet earth are you talking about?

We need some moderation here, this is just ridiculous .

[Zehira]

What on planet earth are you talking about?

We need some moderation here, this is just ridiculous .

I think you have none from the UK expect XIV only. I mean they are from California and I am from Virginia... A lot of UK references here.

[Amnesty]

Have screenshots of my characters jobs in all there END GAME glory... All I've ever cared about... I actually look forward to the day never have to deal with the community again...

[Sirmarki]

Have screenshots of my characters jobs in all there END GAME glory... All I've ever cared about... I actually look forward to the day never have to deal with the community again...

You were asking the community for help the other day in yell.

[Amnesty]

I'm glad your slowly figuring out how this game works...

[Amnesty]

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ef/f1/31/eff13108a8326bf6ed4d2a4ec0e5b526.jpg

[Sp1cyryan]

Have screenshots of my characters jobs in all there END GAME glory... All I've ever cared about... I actually look forward to the day never have to deal with the community again...

Given how horrible your ML party was last night with Ronstadt. The community would appreciate not dealing with you either.

[Alhanelem]

Given how horrible your ML party was last night with Ronstadt. The community would appreciate not dealing with you either.
Shots fired o.O

[Amnesty]

At least me and Ronstadt are doing the grind regardless of having the ideal setup...

[Sp1cyryan]

At least me and Ronstadt are doing the grind regardless of having the ideal setup...

Ideally you both wouldn't be offering to bring a COR bot and getting ~80-90k an hour.

[Amnesty]

Getting M.Lv 30 ~ 40 in several days is reasonable... WTF is wrong with you?

[Sp1cyryan]

Getting M.Lv 30 ~ 40 in several days is reasonable... WTF is wrong with you?

I'm not sure that you understand what I am saying.

[Amnesty]

https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=792377872259876&set=pb.100044630102207.-2207520000.

[Zehira]

I'm not sure that you understand what I am saying.

I think he meant the game already got mixed up thanks to the cap 99. They don't play as intended anymore. Just cheating and botting. That truth without proper reasoning.

[Immortal]

Lets use South Park as an analogy to make a point

They created the show in 1997 and it's still putting out shows today and still making good money, they updated the creation tools but it still looks the same and is pretty much the same thing but new stories. If the animators working on it are bored or want to go make the terminator, they replace them with new staff that do want to work on it.

If South Park was owned by Square Enix, they would of canceled it and replaced with with a hyper realstic CGI series cause the "animators" (in reality it's managerial) were bored of the old style and are excited about CGI. It would cost 30 million dollars an episode, take 6 months per episode, everyone would hate it, each flower pot in the background would have 100 billion polygons, they would cancel it in a year after burning 120 million dollars while 10 people watched and then make a new CGI series that cost 40 million an episode and that would fail again.

This is how Square Enix operate, they are so fixated with novelty, new tech and new audiences that they don't understand you should always nurture success and audiences you already have.

FFXI is 20 years old ps2 game, guess what? The players aren't going anywhere anytime soon, new players are still joining (who like grind / long term / old school - hi2u runescape / aesthetic) and it has plenty of profit growth potential with expansions and merch. A lot of people would come back for 5-6 months for an expansion too, so it's not even just the expansion box price that would make money but the sub price from booster player numbers after too.

With investment FFXI could carry on another 20-30 years easily and be updated all that time, and make good money doing it.

All they need to do is invest money into dev tools so people can keep making content etc, it's not even comparatively expensive to do compared to everything else they throw money at. As long as they just try to re-create what they NEED.

It does not matter if it's 20 year old tech if people like it and will pay to play it, also the devs want to keep working on it because they are XI fans and have stated they only got into game dev becasue they loved XI and wanted to work on it.

The entire problem is management.

They have burned money on countless games over the past few years that quickly died, and damaged their brand in the process as completely chaotic company. If they spent a fraction of that on XI dev tools it would of been guaranteed profits for the next 20+ years and it would be amazing PR to rebuild faith and love in the company.

-

Again the same thing is going to (and actually already is) happening with XIV where they are getting itchy feet and want to work on the newest AAA single player devil may cry clone.

The only reason they are still in business at all is because they have a loyal fanbase that keep bailing them out of every hole they jump into, but that are slowly getting sick and tired of their antics.

Everyone I know that used to be a Square Enix fan is now a fan of a specific thing they run, and hate the company. That is not good.

Most companies understand the value of a loyal fanbase and niche products, Square Enix understand nothing but chasing pretty butterflies.

They are running XI into the ground.
They are doing the same thing with XIV.
They ruined FF7 R in so many ways.
FF16 looks like a complete mess of mashed together ideas that will end up appealing to barely anyone.

I mean really.

TLDR: If people still like Chess, make more Chess boards and don't try make super intergalatic blackhole 4d chOss'.

This is so true, this company is just terrible. They used to ban like crazy back then I remember, so many people got smacked for the dumbest things. I always am shocked that Anelheim is still here for that reason.

[Pixela]

Because he's an informer / reporter and other people are not, so if you're in a place where one person reporting everyone and nobody is as low down and dirty to do the same, they win. FFXIAH is the same becasue very much like here the moderator/s don't read anything naturally and only come here when they get reports.

He got nuked fast from the XIV forums becasue there were people like him there.

[Alhanelem]

Because he's an informer / reporter and other people are not, so if you're in a place where one person reporting everyone and nobody is as low down and dirty to do the same, they win. FFXIAH is the same becasue very much like here the moderator/s don't read anything naturally and only come here when they get reports.

He got nuked fast from the XIV forums becasue there were people like him there.

Almost everybody gets nuked fast from the FFXIV forums, because people are honest and don't sugar coat their opinions more often than not. But even that is becoming less true these days as there are fewer official posts. I got banned from the XIV forums for using a certain strongly inappropriate word to describe what I thought of a certain bad idea (Bizzarely in spite of this they never moderated the actual post... ?????). Since I have restrained the potty mouth around here, I thus haven't gotten in trouble since.

I already addressed the rest of the silliness in that quoted comment (for lack of an appropriate word), so I'm not going to do so again. There is one spot we agree and that's SE being a terrible company (with a lot of great talent working for them). I just disagree with all the "boost FFXIV ruin FFXIV" stuff. Because everything is simply running its course with SE being a business and businesses doing business things. FFXIV is reaching the latter part of its lifespan and its support will gradually decrease, probably starting with the next expansion. PAX East had FFXIV badge lanyards the last 5 times or so, this year it was FFXVI lanyards. Eventually just like FFXI, FFXIV will be a thing that simply exists and generates free money while SE moves on to its Next Big Thing.

[Immortal]

Its just not fair at all, I hate the whole situation. If I had the knowledge and worked in the field, i would work on the game for free. I had not felt this sad about the games future since the announcements of end of major content with ROV ending. Can only hope something changes along the line because thats what happened last time. Only this time there are other factors hurting the game and its bottom line like private servers and a jaded community. This game has so many potential new stories and fun times to be had and so many people want it to succeed but are sad to see it neglected. 16 looks like a completely different game, not even Final Fantasy... This was always the one game I could always come back to and feel at home and enjoy myself and they even trying to slowly take that away. I guess we will all just reach a point as we get older and pushed out in favor of the new kids. Why is it so terrible to support loyal fans and continue working on a legacy title that they benefited from so much?

[Alhanelem]

i would work on the game for free.It's pretty easy to say this when you're not already doing it. given what we do know about how the game was built, it might just be one of the worst software development projects you could work on. And evidently, there were some people on FFXI that didn't want to be working on it full time (i.e. the reason the producer said that they are holding people's careers back)

You know, life just isn't fair sometimes. Nothing lasts forever.

Did you know that in Japan a funeral was held (by the company that ran it) for the last remaining pager service in operation in Japan? At the time they still had somewhere around a few thousand people still using it (i.e. doctors), but no matter how much something might be loved by the people still using it, there comes a time when we simply have to get with the times.

[Rinuko]

Given the absolute nonsense that has been posted on these forums over the last week, I think SE should just close these forums down.

I'm surprised they haven't years ago.


https://github.com/ps2dev/ps2dev

This is funny, you think a company would use something like this? I'm sure Sony would approve it.

[Pixela]

Square spent way more on Marvel Avengers and it was free to play and nobody wanted to play it, they had to close it in a few years. Next gen engine and all.

FFXI is a 20 year old ps2 game and we are all throwing money at them to play it, yet they refuse to invest more into it beyond the bare min.

It's not rocket science, but apparently it is to them.

They should know better because almost everything they make recently is garbage and they can't afford to act like this.

[Rinuko]

I have never worked on PS2 software or hardware but I would imagine it's more complicated than just port their engine to something new.
Problem is likely between "Does SE want to have 2 modern MMORPG in the FF IP" and money+resources required for such a task.

I think this ship has sailed like a decade ago but I kinda like the game as it is, but then I grew up with the game so I'm having both a bias and rose-tinted glasses.

[Alhanelem]

The easiest way to do something on a different platform is to make a wrapper that takes the driver/hardware calls made by the original software (in this case, for the PS2's graphics subsystem) and output equivalent calls for the graphics system on the other platform, which I'm pretty sure is basically what they do for the windows version of FFXI. The well known artifacts like the windows in the mog house among other things are caused when they fail to achieve equivalency with the other platform's graphics system (in this case, DirectX).



I think this ship has sailed like a decade ago but I kinda like the game as it is, but then I grew up with the game so I'm having both a bias and rose-tinted glasses. I agree, I feel the same way.

[Immortal]

Not everything has to end, there are franchises and games still going for the same amount of time and still getting content. Its a steady revenue for them and is pure profit practically, I don't see any reason for it to end. People are still willing to pay them 100+ a month to multi box and have wardrobes etc. They are sitting ontop of a pile of cash here with the returns they could get if they did things like race change service or other features that XIV even has. They constantly revamp and remaster dinky games like FF1~6 yet can't be bothered to bring XI to modern audiences with a touch up or big expansion, shameful really.

[Alhanelem]

Not everything has to end, there are franchises and games still going...FFXI is not ending, nor are content updates stopping entirely. They're just not willing to spend as much on its upkeep.

[Pixela]

FF14 started as a sub standard mmo, then got a bit better and then quickly turned into a literal second life knockoff. It was over when they saw how much those kinds of players spend on outfits. The main endgame is standing in limsa or dancing in stupid nightclubs in peoples mog hosue basements with massive donkey kongs modded on.

If they lose most ff11 players because we become disheartened, we won't be going there.

[Tarmarkvar]

I love the arrogance of people like Pixela who think they can somehow intuit the complexities of a major corporation's revenue streams based solely on "I like this one product, and a bunch of other people also like this product".

[Sp1cyryan]

I love the arrogance of people like Pixela who think they can somehow intuit the complexities of a major corporation's revenue streams based solely on "I like this one product, and a bunch of other people also like this product".

But I pay $12.95, and feel I should pay even less since I am not getting as much as I feel I should. So an entire company should move to fulfill my personal desires because they are so terrible and XI is so good because I feels.

[Pixela]

If I'm paying for updates and they stop those updates I have every right to be mad (especially if they announce it in a stupid manner like, "careers") , not only because of my personal opinion but because I know people are going to start quitting because of it and it puts the entire project at risk. I would of been happier if they said nothing and just did it than what they did.

If I see a company making flop after flop and losing hundreds of millions of dollars I may suggest that maybe you would value a product you made 20 years ago that people want to pay to play still.

[Tarmarkvar]

If I'm paying for updates and they stop those updates I have every right to be mad (especially if they announce it in a stupid manner like, "careers") , not only because of my personal opinion but because I know people are going to start quitting because of it and it puts the entire project at risk. I would of been happier if they said nothing and just did it than what they did.

You are not paying for updates. You were never paying for updates. Stop using that idiotic strawman. You are paying for use of an online service.

People have been quitting this game for 20 years. The management at Square Enix is perfectly aware of this fact. I quit for 3 years at one point from August 2017 to about the time in 2020 when Voracious Resurgence was announced. Somehow the game survived without me.

[Alhanelem]

If I'm paying for updates and they stop those updates I have every right to be mad (especially if they announce it in a stupid manner like, "careers") , not only because of my personal opinion but because I know people are going to start quitting because of it and it puts the entire project at risk. I would of been happier if they said nothing and just did it than what they did.

If I see a company making flop after flop and losing hundreds of millions of dollars I may suggest that maybe you would value a product you made 20 years ago that people want to pay to play still.
If I see a company and I feel about it the way that you seem to, I would stop being their customer and move on to something else. But you're still here.

[Pixela]

But you're still here.

I'm here till my sub runs out, I paid for this forum account I'm using it.

[Zehira]

I like every employee (outside of SE included) to be happy and doesn't really have to depend on customers. Personally, I enjoy the Lv75 cap more because I miss playing RDM75/NIN37. :cool:

[Alhanelem]

Whatever you did at 75 you can do better at 99, its not like anything went away

I am the opposite, they took too long to increase the level cap and that's the real reason ppl got attached to it. I like the new range of abilities we gained in the process, it definitely did add more to some jobs than others though. All of my favorite jobs got a lot out of it, even PUP became considerably more useful. I accept that time goes on and MMOs change over time.

Nobody seems to miss 50 cap, or 65 cap, or 80 cap. Why? Because the game didn't stay in any of those spots for very long. 75 cap stayed for a long time, so people were used to it, it was that simple.

[Zehira]

I am the opposite, they took too long to increase the level cap and that's the real reason ppl got attached to it. I like the new range of abilities we gained in the process,

No, they already turned FFXI into XIV fast paced battle endgame. People use third party tools to track us and even on voice chat (I can't use it). Too much stressful being a RDM.

I like the old way. Slow paced battle that gives us time to type and chat.

[Immortal]

You are not paying for updates. You were never paying for updates. Stop using that idiotic strawman. You are paying for use of an online service.

People have been quitting this game for 20 years. The management at Square Enix is perfectly aware of this fact. I quit for 3 years at one point from August 2017 to about the time in 2020 when Voracious Resurgence was announced. Somehow the game survived without me.

What stupid logic honestly, lets all quit then en masse and see how it does for the game. Obiously they are going to shut it down, clearly a quitter like you couldn't care less. I hate those players that quit for years and come back and try to dissuade others from caring about the game. One day you aren't going to have something to return to. We don't just pay for an online service, theres an obvious obligation that comes with an online game and subscribers. If you don't have new content or things for them to do, you are going to get less revenue.

[Immortal]

No, they already turned FFXI into XIV fast paced battle endgame. People use third party tools to track us and even on voice chat (I can't use it). Too much stressful being a RDM.

I like the old way. Slow paced battle that gives us time to type and chat.

Only the hardest of fights like Odyssey v25 are like that. Everything else is still slow paced, you can easily chat in an Odyseey segment farm that doesn't take itself too seriously. You can chat in Ambuscade, you can chat in EP parties, you can chat in HtB. The list goes on, so really its a silly excuse.

[Zehira]

so really its a silly excuse.

Everyone has a different taste, unfortunately.

[Alhanelem]

No, they already turned FFXI into XIV fast paced battle endgame.What? lol

Even with everything that's come since, FFXI doesn't have one tenth the pace of FFXIV. It's impossible when everything is menu and macro driven and everything takes like 3 seconds after pressing to happen. FFXI couldn't be as fast as FFXIV if it wanted to, the engine just wasn't designed for it, especially since the networking is deliberately bottlenecked at dialup speeds.

[Zehira]

It's impossible when everything is menu and macro driven and everything takes like 3 seconds after pressing to happen. FFXI couldn't be as fast as FFXIV if it wanted to, the engine just wasn't designed for it,

Sort of, you are right. Dynamis-D is a perfect example for that. Everything seems to go wrong by too many players and enemies. Unless upgrade the engine if SE must have to, FFXI was never meant for that. In reality, retail is very overwhelming for the most of FFXI veterans.

The only reason they play on an unofficial server is they feel Vana'diel is alive. Most of them are very helpful and friendly (unlike Asura) and are fun to play with. That's why they want a classic server even though the biggest issue is that SE couldn't able to police the game to keep everything civilized.

In America, it's very hard to sue HorizonXI due to the fact they all work for free. Like I thought maybe one day SE could just buy HorizonXI and make it official. They are the only experienced GMs I know that exist.

[Sp1cyryan]

What stupid logic honestly, lets all quit then en masse and see how it does for the game. Obiously they are going to shut it down, clearly a quitter like you couldn't care less. I hate those players that quit for years and come back and try to dissuade others from caring about the game. One day you aren't going to have something to return to. We don't just pay for an online service, theres an obvious obligation that comes with an online game and subscribers. If you don't have new content or things for them to do, you are going to get less revenue.

Just because you want updates doesn't mean their argument is "stupid". You pay to access the game, and that is the fact

[Tarmarkvar]

What stupid logic honestly, lets all quit then en masse and see how it does for the game. Obiously they are going to shut it down, clearly a quitter like you couldn't care less. I hate those players that quit for years and come back and try to dissuade others from caring about the game. One day you aren't going to have something to return to. We don't just pay for an online service, theres an obvious obligation that comes with an online game and subscribers. If you don't have new content or things for them to do, you are going to get less revenue.

So was I supposed to pay a monthly subscription for a service I didn't use?

Of course they would lose money if they never added any new content. That doesn't mean new content is a right. It just means that it's probably a good business decision for as long as the people who actually have access to the company's financial data decide it's not.

[Pixela]

good business decision

they are throwing money into nfts

their new ff game has a slow burn intellectual story with action combat

these people have no idea what they are doing

I find it amusing FF11 is older than Square Enix.

[Alhanelem]

In America, it's very hard to sue HorizonXI due to the fact they all work for free. Like I thought maybe one day SE could just buy HorizonXI and make it official. They are the only experienced GMs I know that exist.
You don't have to make money to get content matched online or get DMCA takedown'd. Now, if they did collect money for the service that would almost certainly trigger SE to go after them if they found out about it.

Nintendo is infamous for shutting down fan projects even where no money is involved.



I hate those players that quit for years and come back and try to dissuade others from caring about the game.I've never truly quit, nor do I want people to not care about the game. But I also don't think people should put up with something they feel is constantly giving them the finger like in your case. If you're not having a good time, I would encourage you to find an activity that you do find enjoyable, nobody should be doing things they aren't happy doing.

All I've been trying to tell you this whole time is SE is going to do whatever will make them the most money. And developing major new expansions or makeovers for FFXI with tons of new content is not likely to give them anywhere near the payoff on their investment as if they spent those resources on something new. Complaining here and making fales statements about that other game you feel is somehow responsible for all of this (even though it isn't) is not going to persuade them to invest more in FFXI. it's going to take way, way more than the dozen or so of us who post on the forums to convince SE that it would be worth investing a lot of money into FFXI again.

[Pixela]

In America, it's very hard to sue HorizonXI due to the fact they all work for free. Like I thought maybe one day SE could just buy HorizonXI and make it official. They are the only experienced GMs I know that exist.

They do make money, do a quick google search for "gil buy horizon ffxi" marvel at the vast amount of it you can buy and the vast amount buying it. It's one server with 10 people working on it, it's not hard to understand they are the ones selling it. Because of course they are, why wouldn't they be? There is massive demand, it's free money since they can make 99999999999999gil from gm commands and they are not a legit company where this would be awful PR. It's just some guys you never heard of, that can shut the discord and website and disappear tomorrow. You don't even know their real names.

When you're running a PS people install you can do whatever you want, you''re not running a legal business in the first place where they worry about breaking business laws or ruining their reputation. They can have key loggers running on your computer when it's running if they want to harvest your steam, wow, bank, ff11 account passwords, to sell or hack you 1-2 years from now or if they get closed down. They can do anything they want. They can have no keyloggers for a few months when people could check for them, then install one with a patch months later and then remove them again a week later.

Are you smart enough to know if they were doing that? no you're not, you're tech illiterate and you're installing who the knows what from who knows who and allowing them to update it anytime they feel like it with whatever they want. You're putting all this trust in not only them being honest, but them being smart enough to not get hacked by someone else and hijack their service to install stuff on your computer.

Where does all this trust come from? you want to know the sad part? you're trusting it because its FFXI, you're overlaying the trust in the game and company onto literal nobodies on the internet who are running a wtf version they smashed together from bits and pieces.

Do they operate a game for a company you could sue? no, if they closed down tomorrow you wouldn't even know how to find them at all.

It's amazing how stupid people are and how trusting they are of literal nobodies asking you to install software that is being updated all the time.

Here is a bit of advice: If people are spending a lot of money every month to run something for free (and btw the more users they have the more expensive it is in hosting fees), they have some way they have plannend to make money they are losing off it. If you don't know how they plan to make money, you should be really worried about it.

[Sp1cyryan]

They do make money, do a quick google search for "gil buy horizon ffxi" marvel at the vast amount of it you can buy and the vast amount buying it. It's one server with 10 people working on it, it's not hard to understand they are the ones selling it. Because of course they are, why wouldn't they be? There is massive demand, it's free money since they can make 99999999999999gil from gm commands and they are not a legit company where this would be awful PR. It's just some guys you never heard of, that can shut the discord and website and disappear tomorrow. You don't even know their real names.

When you're running a PS people install you can do whatever you want, you''re not running a legal business in the first place where they worry about breaking business laws or ruining their reputation. They can have key loggers running on your computer when it's running if they want to harvest your steam, wow, bank, ff11 account passwords, to sell or hack you 1-2 years from now or if they get closed down. They can do anything they want. They can have no keyloggers for a few months when people could check for them, then install one with a patch months later and then remove them again a week later.

Are you smart enough to know if they were doing that? no you're not, you're tech illiterate and you're installing who the knows what from who knows who and allowing them to update it anytime they feel like it with whatever they want. You're putting all this trust in not only them being honest, but them being smart enough to not get hacked by someone else and hijack their service to install stuff on your computer.

Where does all this trust come from? you want to know the sad part? you're trusting it because its FFXI, you're overlaying the trust in the game and company onto literal nobodies on the internet who are running a wtf version they smashed together from bits and pieces.

Do they operate a game for a company you could sue? no, if they closed down tomorrow you wouldn't even know how to find them at all.

It's amazing how stupid people are and how trusting they are of literal nobodies asking you to install software that is being updated all the time.

Here is a bit of advice: If people are spending a lot of money every month to run something for free (and btw the more users they have the more expensive it is in hosting fees), they have some way they have plannend to make money they are losing off it. If you don't know how they plan to make money, you should be really worried about it.

Conspiracy theory of gil selling. Conspiracy theory of keylogging players, conspiracy of hijacking and installing things to players PCs. Then says people are stupid for essentially participating and that there must be a plan to profit.

Pix is big mad.

[Pixela]

Prove they are not doing these things, or if you prefer tell me why you trust them so much to not do those things.

Reply fast as you may have already won a million dollars Mr Spicy Ryan, all you have to do is give me your bank account details. Reply fast!

[Zehira]

Are you smart enough to know if they were doing that? no you're not, you're tech illiterate

Hilarious because I am an old-fashioned programmer, web designer, SQL manager, Photoshop expert and many more. All the things I learned from college more than a decade ago (Yes, I forgot a lot). I started learning how to use Blender to make models in XIV after I learned how in XI.

[Pixela]

Hilarious because I am an old-fashioned programmer, web designer, SQL manager, Photoshop expert and many more. All the things I learned from college more than a decade ago (Yes, I forgot a lot). I started learning how to use Blender to make models in XIV after I learned how in XI.


Sure you are, which is why you gave a program access through your firewall even though you have no idea what is in it.

What checks have you done on it? Wow me with your tech skills rite about naow.

[Zehira]

Sure you are, which is why you gave a program access through your firewall even though you have no idea what is in it.

What checks have you done on it? Wow me with your tech skills rite about naow.

Internet stuff was the first thing I learned when I was a senior before anything. It was the hardest thing to study.

[Pixela]

It's amazing to me that people just install this stuff and think nothing of it at all and give it access through their firewall and are told any virus warnings are false positivies, not only once but multiple ones. how many have you installed? 2-3?

You do know there are bad people out there right? We don't really live in the carebear kingdom.

If you're right and they didn't do anything nothing happens, if I'm right you're screwed cause you gave full access to your pc with the potential of key loggers to steal every user name and password you enter for everything. Plus it's not an instant thing, they can keep hold of that stuff for months or years before taking advantage of it.

I dunno, I don't like the odds but you do you.

I can trust Square Enix cause it's a billion dollar company and I'm a customer giving them money for a service, some guys in their bedroom offering me a free deal they spend thousands of dollars a month in hosting fees for...not so much though.

[Zehira]

I dunno, I don't like the odds but you do you.

I wouldn't worry. It is installed on my Microsoft Surface Pro 3 with no personal info with a Brave web browser and total security program. Nothing can be trusted even Duckduckgo told you they don't track your info.

[Tarmarkvar]

Prove they are not doing these things, or if you prefer tell me why you trust them so much to not do those things.

That's absolutely not how debate works. You don't make wild assertions and then tell people to prove you wrong. You make assertions, present your evidence for those assertions, and then challenge other people to dispute your evidence. Otherwise I could tell you, for example, to prove to me that you don't murder hobos for fun.

[Voidstorm]

I mean really.

TLDR: If people still like Chess, make more Chess boards and don't try make super intergalatic blackhole 4d chOss'.
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/570363876646846465/1100695645259579484/aKEW4Pg_460swp.webp

sorry, saw the meme, reminded me of the post. Had to do it.

[Pixela]

That's absolutely not how debate works. You don't make wild assertions and then tell people to prove you wrong. You make assertions, present your evidence for those assertions, and then challenge other people to dispute your evidence. Otherwise I could tell you, for example, to prove to me that you don't murder hobos for fun.

Spicy is a pain in the ass, he just says things all the time to be annoying and does it on purpose. Which is why I don't spend much time replying to him at all, at least not here.

The original point I made is perfectly valid and you know it is, if I gave you a link to a random exe would you download and install it? Because that's what these people are doing, and again it's not just with this specific server either because they download any that offers one like it's nothing.

Most of these "developers" don't even really make anything, they just download the entire package from github and install it on a server. There isn't much work to set one up and inject some naughty things into them.

There is no validation, there is no objective safety, it's all purely trust and you're trusting people you don't even know and that could disappear in a puff of smoke tomorrow. There could be a bad actor that joins the team months from now, and you keep getting updates to this gigs worth of software not knowing what it's doing.

People have way too much positivity bias, and it is idiocy given how much they can make stripping your account and selling all your assets.

[Zehira]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/570363876646846465/1100695645259579484/aKEW4Pg_460swp.webp

sorry, saw the meme, reminded me of the post. Had to do it.

I assumed Pixela visited HorizonXI's website to see my linkshell name. I joined few months ago anyway.

On retail, all we see is complain, complain, research, research, complain, complain...

On a private server, we just play, chat, share sweet memories, laugh at bugged things, and have fun. Not bad for free.

If developers from SE got tired of this game and want to move on to something new then I can understand but why can't some players just quit this game...? Mithra-fever?

[Alhanelem]

That's absolutely not how debate works. You don't make wild assertions and then tell people to prove you wrong. You make assertions, present your evidence for those assertions, and then challenge other people to dispute your evidence. Otherwise I could tell you, for example, to prove to me that you don't murder hobos for fun.
I've been trying to explain this for years, they'll never get it. You ask this guy for proof he either says "its ez to find go find it urself" or doesn't prove anything at all ever. It's up to the person making the claims to convince others that they are correct. Given the other person takes the opposite position, they aren't going to seek out info to prove themselves wrong nor are they obligated to.

I don't know if or who is selling gil on a private server and I don't care, it's kind of a moot point when the whole thing is illegitimate in the first place. While Pixela is pulling a bunch of crap out of nowhere, people are using that private server to play the game for free and it does damage the game by them so doing.

[Pixela]

You ask this guy for proof he either says "its ez to find go find it urself" or doesn't prove anything at all ever.

Still mad you lose every argument I see, pathetic.

https://i.imgur.com/w6JDlEy.jpg

[Alhanelem]

Still mad you lose every argument I see, pathetic.You can't lose an argument when there is no argument, as you don't have one.

What you have is just a bunch of words that mean nothing, even the words that try to mean something fail to make an argument because you provide nothing to support them. You talk about budgets all the time, you've never linked to the budget you saw that made you say that. Clearly, you didn't go through the lessons they taught in high school/secondary school where they teach you to cite your sources.

[Catmato]

On retail, all we see is complain, complain, research, research, complain, complain...

Sounds like you need to surround yourself with better people. Also, I've heard many complaints about private servers, including the one you referenced.

[Zehira]

Sounds like you need to surround yourself with better people. Also, I've heard many complaints about private servers, including the one you referenced.

Private servers are far far far far from perfection, you know what, they don't care. They will do anything to destroy SE's oldest/outdated game, FF11... (for not having their desires met). I am not sure what complaints you have heard about them... It's just free to play.

What I understood, HorizonXI is trying something different than what Eden and Wings failed to do.

[Alhanelem]

It's just free to play.

What I understood, HorizonXI is trying something different than what Eden and Wings failed to do. Well they all have one thing in common: They're all violating Square-Enix's rights, and they're all costing SE money, and they're all harming the live game. Maybe that's what they want. Doesn't make it right.

And to be clear, I like the game as it is now. I don't want to be capped to 75, I don't want broken content/mechanics/whatever else, I don't mind paying a sub and I don't want what those servers offer. And they all jeapordize the rest of ours' ability to play the official game.

[Zehira]

And to be clear, I like the game as it is now. I don't want to be capped to 75, I don't want broken content/mechanics/whatever else, I don't mind paying a sub and I don't want what those servers offer. And they all jeapordize the rest of ours' ability to play the official game.

That's a good message. Well even if SE let them know there is no plan for either a classic server or remake or whatever then everything will stop but SE has not said anything.

[Sirmarki]

SE's oldest/outdated game

I have no idea why people reference the age of a game.

It boils down to two things. You either like playing it, or you don't - simples.

There are huge communities of people that regularly play games from the 80's.

[Pixela]

You can't lose an argument when there is no argument, as you don't have one.

What you have is just a bunch of words that mean nothing, even the words that try to mean something fail to make an argument because you provide nothing to support them. You talk about budgets all the time, you've never linked to the budget you saw that made you say that. Clearly, you didn't go through the lessons they taught in high school/secondary school where they teach you to cite your sources.

Pathetic .

[Zehira]

I have no idea why people reference the age of a game.

Still look confused? Retail is designed for bots to have fun. That fact.

I'd say try the one I referenced. Your jaw drops to the floor and your eyes to grow wider and wider about how they keep it cleaned up for the most part. ;)

[Pixela]

There are fish bots literally everywhere in every town on that server you mentioned, chocobo digging is botted, mining is botted and "app'd" and gil selling is the main reason the server exists. I try not to be mean about you, but you're completely oblivious.

[Zehira]

You just report them and they will look it up. I saw you posted stuff on FFXIAH complaining about that and your posts got nuked by admin.

[Alhanelem]

Pathetic .What's pathetic is your unwillingness to back up what you say and then act as if you've "won."

When you argue everyone else is automatically the winner because you don't defend your position, you just keep repeating unproven nonsense until people get sick of talking to you.

[Pixela]

You just report them and they will look it up. I saw you posted stuff on FFXIAH complaining about that and your posts got nuked by admin.

Did you do that google search i suggested, they have great deals on gil you can take advantage of.

[Alhanelem]

Did you do that google search i suggested, they have great deals on gil you can take advantage of.
It's not my job to do google searches for you. It's your job to link the specific sources yourself. If all you can remember is the search terms you used, well, sucks to be you. I'm not going to do your research for you. You STILL don't understand that you have to prove your arguments when questioned. I'm not going to prove what I don't agree with for you. Provide an actual URL to an actual source.

If I put in the references section of my papers in college, "Google search for 'Fried Chicken Wings'" instead of a link to an actual article on the subject, my paper would get sent back to me with an F.

Likewise, your argument gets an F for not citing sources.

[Pixela]

keep the unrelated arguments you never win in the correct threads.

[Tarmarkvar]

Still look confused? Retail is designed for bots to have fun. That fact.

I'd say try the one I referenced. Your jaw drops to the floor and your eyes to grow wider and wider about how they keep it cleaned up for the most part. ;)

Retail is designed for people. People create the demand for bots.

Stop being so Asura-centric. Other servers don't have nearly the number of bots that Asura does. It's not the game, it's the population of the server. Bots exist to farm gil to sell. The demand for gil is higher where there are more customers.

And what does it matter if people are botting chocobo digging, fishing, and mining? No real person was doing that crap anyway. It's like going to a parking lot with 500 open spaces, then complaining that one guy took two spots 8 rows back from the entrance.

[Tarmarkvar]

It's not my job to do google searches for you. It's your job to link the specific sources yourself. If all you can remember is the search terms you used, well, sucks to be you. I'm not going to do your research for you. You STILL don't understand that you have to prove your arguments when questioned. I'm not going to prove what I don't agree with for you. Provide an actual URL to an actual source.

If I put in the references section of my papers in college, "Google search for 'Fried Chicken Wings'" instead of a link to an actual article on the subject, my paper would get sent back to me with an F.

Likewise, your argument gets an F for not citing sources.

I hate that rhetorical tactic so much. Somebody wants to persuade another of a point, but is too lazy to provide references, so they just put the duty on the other person and act like the winner.

[Tarmarkvar]

Still mad you lose every argument I see, pathetic.

https://i.imgur.com/w6JDlEy.jpg

Conversations aren't contests. Grow up.

[Tarmarkvar]

Well this relentless bitchfest is getting annoying, so time to make a new Adblock filter to block it out.

[Pixela]

Conversations aren't contests. Grow up.

It's a joke, it's funny because Helm never gets it so I do it over and over again and it always works.

I think I've posted the pathetic meme at him about 10 times and it always riles him up.

[Zehira]

Stop being so Asura-centric. Other servers don't have nearly the number of bots that Asura does. It's not the game, it's the population of the server. Bots exist to farm gil to sell. The demand for gil is higher where there are more customers.

Well, you see. Sirmarki moved to Asura just few years after people already started botting and then he was constantly creating new threads demanding GMs to act up. Nothing happened and he demanded SE to add more space in the blacklist to block spammers. Not a good thing. Just how messy this game is now.

[Pixela]

Well this relentless bitchfest is getting annoying, so time to make a new Adblock filter to block it out.

https://i.imgur.com/3MBQqec.png

[Alhanelem]

keep the unrelated arguments you never win in the correct threads. When I lose an argument against you I'll be sure to do so. :)

It hasn't happened yet though :)

The real judge of who "won" or is "winning" is the people in observation anyway. You don't get to decide this, the readers do. But I think the readers know how logic works and how arguments need to be proven to be won, so I'm pretty confident they'll make the right call.

[Pixela]

even ff14 players are raging out at the content starvation, ff16 has a lot to answer for

[Immortal]

Pixela, they are just being contrary to bother you. Everything you said makes perfect sense and of course they are upset they didn't think things through. FFXI has been known for ages to have some of the most cutthroat and opportunistic people at the high end, especially those that participated in most of its end game in 75 era. Those same people are now running a "free" server with no ulterior motives, just being altruistic and generous, yea I'm sure. When they wanted to relive those glory days in the aery, they wanted to relive every aspect lol. I don't get how they can trust them either so blindly. People have just become dumber over the years as we are in this weird backwards far left utopia.

[Immortal]

Well they all have one thing in common: They're all violating Square-Enix's rights, and they're all costing SE money, and they're all harming the live game. Maybe that's what they want. Doesn't make it right.

And to be clear, I like the game as it is now. I don't want to be capped to 75, I don't want broken content/mechanics/whatever else, I don't mind paying a sub and I don't want what those servers offer. And they all jeapordize the rest of ours' ability to play the official game.

I agree here completely, they are just a detriment to the official game.

[Zehira]

Hiya Draylo, I like your Ark Angel action figures. :)


even ff14 players are raging out at the content starvation, ff16 has a lot to answer for

I saw the links. It's no one's fault but Tanaka. SE is suffering in both sides and Yoshi-P had to fix the broken game.

But yeah, my FC "Requiem de Vana'diel" on Discord has been awfully quiet. The master is trying to work on things out and I still stand with them.


Edit: I found the image from the XIV forum. I find it funny because it sounds like someone.

https://i.imgur.com/cD2zAQP.png
https://i.imgur.com/1Cay7ce.png

[Alhanelem]

Pixela, they are just being contrary to bother you. Everything you said makes perfect sense and of course they are upset they didn't think things through. FFXI has been known for ages to have some of the most cutthroat and opportunistic people at the high end, especially those that participated in most of its end game in 75 era. Those same people are now running a "free" server with no ulterior motives, just being altruistic and generous, yea I'm sure. When they wanted to relive those glory days in the aery, they wanted to relive every aspect lol. I don't get how they can trust them either so blindly. People have just become dumber over the years as we are in this weird backwards far left utopia.

You know, I really hope this is a joke. Becuase what he is saying really doesn't make sense, he never backs up his arguments with sources or evidence, he just says whatever he can think of that will talk down about FFXIV and other new games SE is working on. If he just cited his sources and provided links to back up his arguments, then they might make sense and could maybe convince some people. But the fact that he just talks out the rear and doesn't support his arguments....

It's not being contrarian. This is a cop out statement to dismiss someone's opinions. I'm not disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing, I'm disagreeing because he's wrong and has no idea what he's talking about and refuses to provide any evidence or cite any sources for claims like "SE's budget combines the MMOs to boost FFXIV" and other similar such nonsense.

I'm really sorry you feel this way, but I stand by my opinions and views and I'm not just taking opposite positions for "teh lulz." (I think that's what the young people today say? :p )

[Sirmarki]

You know, I really hope this is a joke. Becuase what he is saying really doesn't make sense, he never backs up his arguments

Judging by the profile picture, I'm guessing that the person in question as been potentially removed from the forums?

[Sirmarki]

Well, you see. Sirmarki moved to Asura just few years after people already started botting and then he was constantly creating new threads demanding GMs to act up. Nothing happened and he demanded SE to add more space in the blacklist to block spammers. Not a good thing. Just how messy this game is now.

I'm glad that you have been doing your home work on me, but it was no more or less than what the average player wanted.

[Alhanelem]

Judging by the profile picture, I'm guessing that the person in question as been potentially removed from the forums?
Given a certain someone whom they don't seem to have t he guts to deal with, I doubt that's the case in this thread. But I suppose I can dream.

[Pixela]

But I suppose I can dream.

https://i.imgur.com/Hh8Fu2C.png

[Sp1cyryan]

Pixela, they are just being contrary to bother you. Everything you said makes perfect sense and of course they are upset they didn't think things through. FFXI has been known for ages to have some of the most cutthroat and opportunistic people at the high end, especially those that participated in most of its end game in 75 era. Those same people are now running a "free" server with no ulterior motives, just being altruistic and generous, yea I'm sure. When they wanted to relive those glory days in the aery, they wanted to relive every aspect lol. I don't get how they can trust them either so blindly. People have just become dumber over the years as we are in this weird backwards far left utopia.

I appreciate how you managed to project your politics into this as well; it's completely irrelevant and inaccurate.

No one is being contrarian for the sake of it. Compared to how completely in lala land you two are.

Who here is even running a PS? Why are you people so out of touch with basic reality?

[Alhanelem]

Well this relentless bitchfest is getting annoying, so time to make a new Adblock filter to block it out.
You could aslo just not click on it, just saying.

[Sp1cyryan]

You could aslo just not click on it, just saying.

He could, but their comment is fair and the interaction from the—shall we say—individuals here was not.

[Immortal]

I appreciate how you managed to project your politics into this as well; it's completely irrelevant and inaccurate.

No one is being contrarian for the sake of it. Compared to how completely in lala land you two are.

Who here is even running a PS? Why are you people so out of touch with basic reality?

Who said anything about someone on this forum running a server? It was being talked about how they could potentially have keyloggers, use your personal info later after the inevitable downfall of that server (every single server before it has met the same fate, fading into obscurity) and how they are in it for profit behind the scenes. All of those things are probable and most likely true given history of private servers and the types of people running them. You just have some kind of angst against him and decide to be contrary to everything this person is saying. How are we out of touch with reality? You really think a bunch of neckbeards running a private server have no ulterior motives? Give me a break, that is as far from reality as you can be. At the minimum he is at least warning people to be wary of completely trusting them with all their info... Use different passwords or do anything to protect yourself because this is not some big corp, its a bunch of losers who never left dragons aery trying to relive their glory days and make some profit on the way.

As far as the politics, its the only way I can reasonably explain how these people are. Just this guy alone getting bent out of shape and saying hes going to block people. That is the entire mindset, you don't agree with my opinion! how dare you, I'm going to silence you anyway i can.

[Zehira]

Well this relentless bitchfest is getting annoying, so time to make a new Adblock filter to block it out.

I suggested something similar last year. I use uBlock Origin (it does its job better though). It didn't work because how small this community is. You can remove Uriah's thread from view as it's completely useless and we just let him playing his little toy anyway.

[Pixela]

Blocking people for saying things you don't like is cowardice.

[Pixela]

The danger with the PS scene is completely justified, if you say otherwise you're just trying to cope with the fact you downloaded one and have put yourself at risk. You're effectively chanting "please don't screw me over, please don't, please don't!" when you're installing it and updating it if you have any understanding how this works at all.

When I was a younger I used to torrent games all the time. These wonderful people were giving me these $60 games for free, I didn't know them at all but they were just "nice people" helping me out for some...reason. Wasn't that so nice of them? Guess what happened to my computer and guess why I don't do that anymore. It's russian roulette.

I learned the hard way that when someone can profit from being a bad actor with no consequences and taking advantage of your naivety they often will, considering many of our accounts (over many games etc) are worth thousands to tens of thousands of dollars it's a big risk you're taking isn't it?

It's called risk assessment, I don't distrust everything I can install but some things are far more risky than others.

If someone is spending a lot of money to run something every month and they have no cash shop or no way to turn me into a valued customer I am instantly suspicious of them and their motives, even if there is no immediate punishment for my actions that give me a false sense of security I'm still fully aware that they could take me 6 or 12 months from now if they wanted because the passwords are still going to be the same aren't they? Every update is another risk that they finally decided to cash out. It's not even just you either, you're also risking any friends accounts you login to from your computer too.

Lets be generous and say most of these people have no bad intentions and are making money in other ways that don't hurt you, to offset the large losses it costs to run it (the ones with thousands of players are spending thousands of dollars a month in hosting fees). Ok lets say they have a medical issue next week and suddenly they need lots of money to pay for treatment. Do you know how easy it is to mentally justify predating on people who have been effectively leeching off you and using a service for free you're paying money to run?

Lets give another scenario. What if a hacker gets into their computer and then they predate on the you.

Companies have a reputation to uphold, and you can sue them cause you know who they are and they also protect themselves from outside attacks to keep you safe. Some person in his bedroom is none of these things, they can ghost the entire community tomorrow and take everything down if they want.

If you want to take the risk you do it, but people should understand the risks if they want to follow you. To say what I posted above is a conspiracy theory, is you wanting others to take a risk unaware just because misery loves company if something does go wrong.

[Sirmarki]

Blocking people for saying things you don't like is cowardice.

Not really. it's just drivel and about as off-topic as you can go.

[Sp1cyryan]

Who said anything about someone on this forum running a server? It was being talked about how they could potentially have keyloggers, use your personal info later after the inevitable downfall of that server (every single server before it has met the same fate, fading into obscurity) and how they are in it for profit behind the scenes. All of those things are probable and most likely true given history of private servers and the types of people running them. You just have some kind of angst against him and decide to be contrary to everything this person is saying. How are we out of touch with reality? You really think a bunch of neckbeards running a private server have no ulterior motives? Give me a break, that is as far from reality as you can be. At the minimum he is at least warning people to be wary of completely trusting them with all their info... Use different passwords or do anything to protect yourself because this is not some big corp, its a bunch of losers who never left dragons aery trying to relive their glory days and make some profit on the way.

As far as the politics, its the only way I can reasonably explain how these people are. Just this guy alone getting bent out of shape and saying hes going to block people. That is the entire mindset, you don't agree with my opinion! how dare you, I'm going to silence you anyway i can.

Your circular reasoning on the matter leads your responses. Your attempt to turn it back around and go on the offensive is pretty weak as well. A lot of words for a lot of nothing.

And as for politics, no it is not the "only reasonable explanation." It is for you due to the particularly narrow bounds of your reasoning.It is simply ignorant and inaccurate. A mischaracterization on the nature of interpersonal conflict.

[Pixela]

And as for politics.

https://i.imgur.com/mv944R0.jpg

[Zehira]

The danger with the PS scene is completely justified

https://media.tenor.com/vrM1hZuM70AAAAAd/whatever-clapping.gif

[Immortal]

Your circular reasoning on the matter leads your responses. Your attempt to turn it back around and go on the offensive is pretty weak as well. A lot of words for a lot of nothing.

And as for politics, no it is not the "only reasonable explanation." It is for you due to the particularly narrow bounds of your reasoning.It is simply ignorant and inaccurate. A mischaracterization on the nature of interpersonal conflict.

Honestly your whole post just does not make sense, you are just being contrary to troll.

[Alhanelem]

Honestly your whole post just does not make sense, you are just being contrary to troll.
His post makes plenty of sense, you're just not able to see it. Stop crying "CONTRARIAN!" as a cop out and maybe actually read first.

I believe in and stand by my opinions, the fact that you don't agree with them doesn't make me a "contrarian." I'm sorry I don't always have the most popular opinion but it is really my opinion, I'm not just saying it to stir the pot, and neither is he.

[Pixela]

Not really. it's just drivel and about as off-topic as you can go.

Personally speaking. I post "off-topic" stuff because my initial reason to post here has been ruined.

I used to mainly post here to make suggestions of new things or improvements, the last producer letter killed my desire to do that.

[Sirmarki]

Personally speaking. I post "off-topic" stuff because my initial reason to post here has been ruined.

I used to mainly post here to make suggestions of new things or improvements, the last producer letter killed my desire to do that.

So you're quitting then?

[Haldarn]

I think (yeah yeah) S-E should pile everything on a full conversion into a new engine and modern system, near identical to FFXIV's. Then Yoshi-P isn't just the guy who turned a failed MMORPG into a success story, he's saved a dying MMORPG on the brink and shown how live service games can evolve past tech restrictions. What an amazing project for developers to be involved in, and one that both uses existing expertise and also provides those devs with a solid future and potential accolades to boot.

The next decade XI and XIV can then move forward in concert until we can all complain together about how FFXIX being an action looter/shooter MMO with NFT lootboxes is an awful idea.

[Alhanelem]

I think (yeah yeah) S-E should pile everything on a full conversion into a new engine and modern system, near identical to FFXIV's. Then Yoshi-P isn't just the guy who turned a failed MMORPG into a success story, he's saved a dying MMORPG on the brink and shown how live service games can evolve past tech restrictions. What an amazing project for developers to be involved in, and one that both uses existing expertise and also provides those devs with a solid future and potential accolades to boot.

The next decade XI and XIV can then move forward in concert until we can all complain together about how FFXIX being an action looter/shooter MMO with NFT lootboxes is an awful idea.I'd be 100% behind this as long as it didn't involve a hardcore dumbing-down of existing game systems. i.e. elemental and monster relationships, physical strengths/weaknesses, etc. For all the good things FFXIV does, it feels like it came at a cost of making job mechanics too simple (for the sake of roping in new players). So I would love to see Yoshida decide to breathe life into FFXI, as long as that doesn't mean drastically changing the things that made FFXI what it was. New graphics, better (and officially customizable) UI, better netcode and regional servers, and less clunky delays / animation locks.

[Sirmarki]

I think (yeah yeah) S-E should pile everything on a full conversion into a new engine and modern system

The only problem with that I find, is that a lot of long-term players actually play this on older dedicated systems. That and other people seemingly running multiple instances (obviously not mean to be but..) due to the fact the current game requires little to no resources in order to run, and people take advantage of that. Increase the games demand on resources and said people would probably be unable to do what they do.

[Sp1cyryan]

Honestly your whole post just does not make sense, you are just being contrary to troll.

Seems to be a running theme with how you process things. What an obnoxious and insular post.


So you're quitting then?

Lol, let's hope they do.

[Pixela]

Lol, let's hope they do.

you're so mad

https://i.imgur.com/4yVR5ZG.jpg

[Alhanelem]

you're so mad

https://i.imgur.com/4yVR5ZG.jpg
I'd say we have a right to be.

[zataz]

You know I was sad when pso 1 and 2 and episode 3 died. sega pulled the plug btw listen to this https://youtu.be/_N4QKSzIouU
That's the ending them to pso episode 2
It speaks to the unavoidable end. I get it it sucks but when that shut down I discovered final fantasy 11 and I love this game. But one day it will meet psos fate.
I hope to be lucky enouph to find another game to carry on my adventures. Thou I'll never forget 11 my advice is no matter how long this has left stfu and go play 11 while any of us can. And have fun

[Pixela]

How about no? they should keep this game going till the wheels fall off or until barely anyone cares anymore. We are paying for the server fees, they can afford it and here is no reason to just accept that. They owe us the ability to continue to play a game we have supported for 20 years (and continue to), when it costs them so little to do so. XI is the most profitable game they have ever made because of us, and part of the deal is protecting our investment of time and money.

With Sonic Team and PSO you could kind of understand it because it was a free game, there was no sub or cash shop.

If Square close the servers for this game when there are still enough people paying to play it, not only will I and many others never buy a game they release again. Many will also turn into the most toxic anti fans of anything they put out that can exist. Because that's how this works, if you close something people are super passionate about that passion turns to anger and it has no sell by date.

God help Square Enix if they ever shut down ff14, cause they might as well close the company if they do. They think like me and there are about 100x more of them, they will take that extremely personally.

Closing a long running mmo is awful PR, especially if you plan to release more in the future. Nobody will trust you, NCsoft have burned their image in the west doing this for example.

[Rinuko]

You know I was sad when pso 1 and 2 and episode 3 died. sega pulled the plug btw listen to this https://youtu.be/_N4QKSzIouU
That's the ending them to pso episode 2
It speaks to the unavoidable end. I get it it sucks but when that shut down I discovered final fantasy 11 and I love this game. But one day it will meet psos fate.
I hope to be lucky enouph to find another game to carry on my adventures. Thou I'll never forget 11 my advice is no matter how long this has left stfu and go play 11 while any of us can. And have fun

Yes, 11 will shut down eventually but it's not anytime soon. It's a numbered title. SE won't kill off the game as long it makes them money.
I'm sure you've heard of FF14, it also a numbered title. There is a reason they put into so much money and resources into getting it fixed.

Had the game only been named Final Fantasy: Online. Yeah then it would probably been killed off back in 2010.

[Pixela]

A good example is Guild wars, when Arenanet released Gw2 they kept Gw running and it still is running with one guy in charge of it now.

The reason for that, is even if it runs at a loss now the loss of revenue is better than the bad PR and alienation of their Gw2 community that is the alternative.

If you have a beloved game that will stop working if the servers are closed, you will be directly blamed and reviled for that happening and for a company built on a fanbase that would be a really bad idea. For game that didn't last long, it's not a big deal. If you do it a long running game you're going to be despised.

Love for game > anger at loss > hatred for the billion dollar company who did it.

I think YoshiP is smart enough to know that.

[Sp1cyryan]

It doesn't matter how desperate you are for it to continue. It will end, and it won't matter who another company did for a different game. When it is clear that XI walks its own path of existence before it inevitably is shut down. Enjoy while you can because that is the hospice stage the game is entering into.

[Pixela]

An mmo is built on perceived permanence or at least a good remaining lifespan.

Very much as if I was told I had 3 months left to live I would stop working out and doing may other things, when players start to worry there isn't a good lifespan left they clock out.

I played another fairly big game that got a 3 month notice and it turned into a ghost town almost instantly and to a shocking level, and this was a free to play game with no barrier to entry. It remained that way for the 3 months, the only players left were taking videos and screenshots in solitude. The only time the server was full again was hours before server close.

It is important that Fujito promotes lifespan (which btw is a thing because they have stated they are buying new servers, and you don't do that unless you plan to keep it running for many years) even if he can't promise updates, and people like you and I also do the same. Because the demoralization effect from what you and others above posted is one of the biggest game killers you can imagine. I know that because I've experienced it.

The game above had masses of things being run like special events, dungeons with high drop rates and all manner of other things and there was nobody doing any of it.

[Haldarn]

Fujito says about next half-update "I hope you enjoy seeing with your own eyes what that means for the world of Vana’diel."

I am waiting for the vindication that on completion of TVR my client reloads in HD and we are left with the FACT that the next XIV expansion will be Vana'diel and that somehow our XI characters are do a thing that means we can play all of XIV from lv1 but with XI rules. Joint sub. Same server. Gearswap horizontal progression with different stats coming out of our ears.

Can be the only possibility, yes?

[Alhanelem]

I don't understand what it is with people and "horizontal progression." the only real difference between the two is one makes you lug more crap around at any given time to achieve the same results. I suppose it can be argued that it gives more content purpose at any given time but other games make up for that in other ways to still offer the same amount of content in the end for the people who want to collect everything.

Games generally moved to "vertical progression" because the prospect of making bigger numbers do bigger things drives content to help retain players vs the next sidegrade that doesn't really advance your character measurably, which makes it harder to get excited about it. The only issue I have with the way games like WoW and FFXIV do it is they don't vary the formula a lot from one content release to the next. But that's not a fault of the progression style, it's lack of creativity on the content creator's part.

The "horizontal progression" is primarily what deters me from playing many jobs to the same level, because I don't want to deal with mules and inventory management aggravation. It does allow stats on equipment to be more interesting and unique, which is fun, but it can be frustrating in a game that really wants you to play many jobs/classes.

[Immortal]

It doesn't matter how desperate you are for it to continue. It will end, and it won't matter who another company did for a different game. When it is clear that XI walks its own path of existence before it inevitably is shut down. Enjoy while you can because that is the hospice stage the game is entering into.

What a doomer

[Sp1cyryan]

What a doomer

Is that so?

[Pixela]

Horizontal progression is about valuing the effort your players put into a game, it allows the developers to add longer grinds to get your rewards and it allows you to take a break and come back and still be able to do stuff in your gear. It is aimed at proper RPG players.

Vertical progression is about constantly resetting you back to the start. You are fully aware you are on an assembly line akin to building a sandcastle on the beachfront, they can't add difficult achievements because they are going to be destroyed soon, if you leave for a year and come back your gear is literally worthless.

With FFXi you're building something, I can login today and work on something and it's permanent progress. This means if I only have 2 hours to play today and then I'm going to be taking a 6 month break, that 2 hours of progression is still worth doing because it's permanent.

If you log into XIV and work on something, it will be deleted and gone in 6 months and I'll come back and the gear is worthless and you have to start again from scratch.

XIV is basically aimed at low attention span having casual players, who would never engage with a long or difficult achievements to get gear. So they give them short and easy achievements to get the best gear, then wipe all the gear and start again in a never ending cycle.

It is literal trash ass garbage if you're used to XI.

The main reason people play XIV is for the modding, erp, dancing in mog hosue basemens, role play, buying cash shop items to show off real life wealth and other second life activities and not the progression system because it's shallow garbage.

XI is like building a diorama from match sticks in your room with glue, it's fiddly and difficult but eventually you'll have this massive castle and buildings and it will look insane.

XIV is like building a sand castle on the beach, it will be pretty easy and look cool an it's gone tomorrow.

[Alhanelem]

Horizontal progression is about valuing the effort your players put into a game, it allows the developers to add longer grinds to get your rewards and it allows you to take a break and come back and still be able to do stuff in your gear. It is aimed at proper RPG players.It has nothing whatsoever to do with valuing the effort of your players. Modern MMOs value your efforts by making the game about collecting things without having to carry it all around with you everywhere you go. If FFXI instead of making you lug around 200 pieces of gear to play your job correctly, dropped items that unlocked permanent skill enhancements i.e. <insert item here> that enhances <insert ability here> is a permanent enhancement instead of having to macro 398743 gear swaps)

I would be a lot more inclined too play many jobs if I could use all my equipment regardless of its location simply by it existing. No need to move stuff back and forth constantly- like the glamour dresser except the stats are still there. Making macros and shuffling gear around isn't a skill, it's just work.



XIV is like building a sand castle on the beach, it will be pretty easy and look cool an it's gone tomorrow. The reality is, and its even true in FFXI now, that players value their look and style as much as they value anything else. There's more to FFXI and more to most any game today than simply killing stuff. You gotta look good doing it too.

And if you think FFXIV and other MMOs today are simply easy, well you haven't played them. Please go beat FFXIV's ultimate raids and get back to me. Beat the deep dungeons solo. I have tons of accomplishments in FFXIV that are not easy feats and they have absolutely nothing to do with gear at all. There's more to game progression than fancy attributes on items.

All MMOs, including FFXI and pretty much all others out there, are glorified collectathons on a grand scale. The only difference between FFXI and most games today is you have to lug your entire collection around with you just to make your job functional.

[Pixela]

https://i.imgur.com/g4oG8gq.jpg

The difficulty in XIV is mainly in positioning to avoid telegraphs, and because content is insanely predictable you're going to beat it with repetition with guarantee across the board. You don't really feel massive pride in beating something, because you can feel it's designed for you to win with a high %.

The difficulty in XI is mainly linked to progression to withstand the strength of the enemies and in the randomness of encounters, you feel more pride in beating something becasue you feel they actively try to make you fail with mechanics such as <20% fu modes, unable to calls trusts in combat (for solo players) and randomness such as back to back charms, aggro resets, sleepga, silence/ga if mage was too close etc.

Being a good tank or healer on XI means you put a lot of work to engage with progression, understand mechanics and practiced a lot.
Being a good tank or healer on XIV just means you queued as tank or healer and do some dps.

[Alhanelem]

The difficulty in XIV is mainly in positioning to avoid telegraphs, and because content is insanely predictable you're going to beat it with repetition with guarantee across the board. You don't really feel massive pride in beating something, because you can feel it's designed for you to win with a high %.The extent to which this is true varies greatly with the content, and the only thing you're really making a case for here is that FFXI has more RNG. Which is certainly true, but FFXIV has it as well, the boss isn't going to attack the same people with the same skills every time, everyone has different capability with positioning and timing and DPS performance and a bunch of other factors,s so you're drastically oversimplifying. The reality is, both games have their own challenges and both games have content that is predictable and content that is unpredictable.

The difficulty in XIV is mainly in positioning to avoid telegraphs, and because content is insanely predictable you're going to beat it with repetition with guarantee across the board. You don't really feel massive pride in beating something, because you can feel it's designed for you to win with a high %.



Being a good tank or healer on XI means you put a lot of work to engage with progression, understand mechanics and practiced a lot.
Being a good tank or healer on XIV just means you queued as tank or healer and do some dps. These statements just say how uneducated you are in BOTH cases. You drastically overstate how involved being a healer or tank in FFXI is, and you drastically understate how involved being a good tank or healer is in FFXIV.

And again, it all depends on the content. FFXIV has plenty of dynamic content that won't play out exactly the same every time, and FFXI has plenty of straightforward, predictable content. Especially with FFXI, more than you would care to admit.

And all of this barely has anything to do whatsoever with progression style. FFXIV having less vertical progression wouldn't change how battles play out or the strategies employed. FFXIV having less horizontal progression likewise wouldn't either. Really all it changes is how much gear you have to keep on your person.

You keep pretending to act like an expert on a game you don't even play.

[Pixela]

If ff14 was a living entity, evolutionary pressure being applied to it are as follows

Making the game easier and easier to appeal to the casual players they have successfully attracted over the years, this includes making tanking and healing faceroll easy.
Trying to take attention away from raiding because it's insanely expensive to develop with the gear reset systems, and promoting other types of things to login for.
Trying to design and release less impressive armors from content to promote cash shop outfits.

[Sp1cyryan]

If ff14 was a living entity, evolutionary pressure being applied to it are as follows

Making the game easier and easier to appeal to the casual players they have successfully attracted over the years, this includes making tanking and healing faceroll easy.
Trying to take attention away from raiding because it's insanely expensive to develop with the gear reset systems, and promoting other types of things to login for.
Trying to design and release less impressive armors from content to promote cash shop outfits.

Lol, just stop with the 14 nonsense. Big F'n deal. Even then, your opinions on the evolution of a different game are neither here nor there, and that is before even evaluating them.

[BobbinT]

The main reason people play XIV is for the modding, erp, dancing in mog hosue basemens, role play, buying cash shop items to show off real life wealth and other second life activities and not the progression system because it's shallow garbage.



Agree to disagree. Have you looked into FF14's achievement list? It's HUGE! Can't even finish in your lifetime, & this is from another achievement hunter here.

[Rinuko]

I used to play it for the story but each time I re-sub I get bored after a few days, and due to the housing demolition timer is disabled for my region I don't even have to worry about losing my personal houses.

[Pixela]

The housing destruction is the single worst thing I've seen in an mmo, they designed the housing system to be limited in a subscription based game and knew full well that if someone ceases their sub they will lose it. This would be annoying enough on its own, but when the lead developer tells you to just go play other games if you're bored with the lack of content, knowing full well your house gets demolished if you ubsub is terrible.

On one hand it's predatory behavior to blackmail players this way, on the other hand I know people who haven't played for years and retain the sub to keep a fake house so it obviously works. Smart buisnessman.

This would be like if the developers made prime weapons have an afterglow, but limited it to 50 per server and to retain it you had to talk to an npc once a month in the game. If you unsub you lose the glow and all the gil / time you spent to get it in the first place.

[Sp1cyryan]

This is not an FF14 forum.

[Rinuko]

This is not an FF14 forum.

You sure? :')

[Alhanelem]

The housing destruction is the single worst thing I've seen in an mmo, they designed the housing system to be limited in a subscription based game and knew full well that if someone ceases their sub they will lose it. This would be annoying enough on its own, but when the lead developer tells you to just go play other games if you're bored with the lack of content, knowing full well your house gets demolished if you ubsub is terrible.

On one hand it's predatory behavior to blackmail players this way, on the other hand I know people who haven't played for years and retain the sub to keep a fake house so it obviously works. Smart buisnessman.

This would be like if the developers made prime weapons have an afterglow, but limited it to 50 per server and to retain it you had to talk to an npc once a month in the game. If you unsub you lose the glow and all the gil / time you spent to get it in the first place.
Actually most games with housing that has a publicly accessible element (i.e. exterior) has limitations like this.

The housing system in FFXIV was originally designed for free companies (guilds) only. During the time that it was like this, there wasn't a major capacity issue. But then they opened it up for individual purchasing and th at's when the system could no longer handle it. The deomolition timer is necessary to ensure that people who want and are actually going to use housing can get access to it when there is limited capacity available. Each ward of housing needs another server machine so it isn't a trivial matter to expand the capacity, which is why it only happens every so often.

Meanwhile in XI, there is no exterior element to mog houses and it's just a zillion copies of the same identical room. The game only needs to load in your personal furniture layout data when you enter, and other people can't enter without invitation. XI's system is simpler and doesn't require anywhere near the same level of resources to operate as XIV's.

[Pixela]

back on topic

I was watching a video earlier and something they were saying made me see this for what it is.

The realities of the game

SE have profit margins they will demand be met from the producer of xi.
FFXI has a standard sub fee that has not changed for 21 years, they can't change this.
Wages of all SE staff rise inline with inflation, whether they want it or not.
Measures they added to selectively increase revenue were not enough to counter inflation (wardrobes etc)
A certain server launched within the past 6 months that lead to a loss of long time players, even if temporarily.

Given the timing of being announced just before the 21st anniversary when it was due to be funded for another year, and the shock leaving of Matsui when he said he wanted to stay till retirement it's obvious what happened to me.

They went for the yearly funding meeting and were told the game isn't making enough money and to either heavily reduce funding or see the game close.

As such they selected to effectively fall on their swords and retire or be moved to other departments to allow XI to continue running.

Allowing the game to continue running allows the possibility of funding to be increased in future and possibly even next year, if the issues above are rectified because yearly funded is decided based on the performance of that year.

If you care about the game and are upset at recent actions (as I am), keep in mind they are keeping it running and the future could be better. If you can afford it, continue to support it.

The developers do care about this game, they could of just walked away but they are determined to keep it going and so should we.

[Sirmarki]

FFXI has a standard sub fee that has not changed for 21 years, they can't change this.

Why not?....

[Sp1cyryan]

Why not?....

Because the name of the game is to make junk up and insert garbage memes.

[Pixela]

Because most of the population don't understand what inflation means, and so will be outraged if they increase the sub inline with inflation.

Ultimately, if they increase it they will end up losing more money than just leaving it. Which is why no sub mmorpg increases the sub and just adds extra revenue streams instead. Everything else increases with inflation but sub mmorpgs are afraid to do it.

[Sp1cyryan]

Because most of the population don't understand what inflation means, and so will be outraged if they increase the sub inline with inflation.

Ultimately, if they increase it they will end up losing more money than just leaving it. Which is why no sub mmorpg increases the sub and just adds extra revenue streams instead. Everything else increases with inflation but sub mmorpgs are afraid to do it.

Just stop, you don't know anything.

[Pixela]

Because the name of the game is to make junk up and insert garbage memes.


Just stop, you don't know anything.

https://i.imgur.com/ltpYDU9.jpg

[Zehira]

Welcome to the official forums, literally everyone... lol

https://i.imgur.com/e5MOfYh.gif

[Stuzey]

well the cost of running the servers has also decreased quite significantly, you are right, some costs have gone up, others have gone down. Inflation is only part of the story...

[Alhanelem]

well the cost of running the servers has also decreased quite significantly, you are right, some costs have gone up, others have gone down. Inflation is only part of the story...

Where'd you get this idea? Servers use electricity and a connection with an ISP, and these things have not gotten cheaper. These are the primary costs, aside from data center space allocation, which I doubt has gotten cheaper either.

[Haldarn]

FFXI has a standard sub fee that has not changed for 21 years, they can't change this.

No, the sub fee should not/would not rise with inflation. It is a service charge and is set by the market rate.

The end product (development) is funded by number of players less server/staff costs. I find it hard to believe there's not enough to fund development for a single expansion in eight years, considering the other MMOs of the same era that are still churning out new content, some that don't even have a sub, and taking into account the large revival the game had a few years ago.

I do concede that if you plan five years ahead for the current FFXI in the maintenance mode we've been told about, you'll end up with a dead game. But I also think that XI has been hamstrung since 2015 out of fear of impacting XIV's success - which should be less of a concern now that XIV is #1 in the genre, but then I guess Yoshi-P has his entire career riding on the success of XVI next month and the trailers haven't given me high expectations for it to be anything other than the next natural progression of Type-0/XV/VIIR/Stranger of Paradise.

You have to spend money to make money and I think we can all agree that FFXI is a fantastic IP which would be a travesty to let dwindle to nothing. It makes no business sense to do so, but it seems that executives don't grasp the intrinsic value of what they have. I don't disagree with Matsui-P's New Year statement that he was concerned for his devs being in a dead-end job, but surely the responsibility of the Producer to his staff, customers and the game itself is to demand FFXI is brought kicking and screaming into the modern day with a transfer to a XIV-like graphical engine, the long-touted UI overhaul and presence on at least PS4/5. A dev-team that resurrects a 20+ yr old MMO would be worth critical acclaim, even more so than those who changed 1.0>ARR.

I can't fathom that how when hobbyists create entire servers, HD graphics overhauls, UI overlays, etc. for the joy of it, that at the very least S-E doesn't take inspiration and do the same.

I can't fathom that they don't understand that investing in the IP can renew it for a whole new generation (considering the proof delivered by VIIR). Over on the XIV forums, the majority that mention XI think it's still the same as the day Abyssea was released and deride it as some archaic piece of history where it was so much fun (wink wink lol) to camp NM spawns for 24hrs. On Facebook, most comments to every FFXI post are requests for the 'classic' server - gods just recreate the game and make one server for classic play and people will be bored quickly enough, but there'll probably be enough people to keep one of those servers going. FFXI today stands as an enjoyable modern MMO (if you're not on Asura) and the quality of post-Seekers storytelling and characterisation equals if not outstrips that of XIV.

The loss of hope that was the cancellation of Mobile was devastating. Nexon whatever, but I gave their "V4" mobile MMO, released just after the cancellation of FFXIR, a crack and any XI player could see that this was their intention for XI - a game where it basically gambited the grind and you spent your active time whilst it idle-fought in the gear screen, optimising for the encounters. All the non-combat stuff including the graphics just felt perfect as XI too.

S-E need to bite the damned bullet and outsource this game to a software house with drive and ambition to make it a success. They've done that with FF1-FF6. It feels like they pity us subscribers and are putting the game into maintenance mode out of a moral obligation to us, because at least that way they're not making a loss, like they're trying desperately to wean addicts off a drug in the slowest, least psychologically damaging (and profitable!) way possible.

I am disappointed and upset, but I'm still subbed because I still have a ton of game to play and I love the environment, especially the music.

But it might take the collapse of XIV before Producers give some serious consideration to an FFXIR or FFXI-2.

[Alhanelem]

But I also think that XI has been hamstrung since 2015 out of fear of impacting XIV's successNo, just no. Don't even go there. FFXI was never anywhere near big enough to "hamstring FFXIV's success." They could spend a million or two on an advertising campaign or something else to boost the game and it wouldn't affect FFXIV at all. This is an absolutely absurd proposition.



S-E need to bite the damned bullet and outsource this game to a software house with drive and ambition to make it a success.Maybe you forgot that you alreaday covered it in your post, but they already tried that, and it didn't pan out, for reasons unknown.

The reality is that people want a different kind of game today than FFXI was in the beginning. Even if you cancelled FFXIV today and announced a remaster of FFXI, it wouldn't suddenly bring FFXIV"s millions of players over to FFXI. They would mostly play WoW or some other similar MMO instead. FFXI had several years to drum up the kind of demand that WoW eventually created, and it didn't. That's not to say FFXI was a failiure, because it wasn't, but FFXI's player count at its peak was small compared to the biggest MMOs. Your post comes off as blatant fanboyism rather than an accurate analysis of the facts/situation.

There was and is plenty of room for both games to exist. Any player of either game is making them money, and they both have rather different audiences. The bulk of players currently playing FFXI are interested in what it has to offer and the bulk of people who play FFXIV are looking for games that offer what it offers. There is SOME overlap, I personally hold a subscription to both, and I know some people in the same boat. but it's absolutely ridiculous to imply that FFXI had to suffer for FFXIV to succeed.




I can't fathom that how when hobbyists create entire servers, HD graphics overhauls, UI overlays, etc. for the joy of it, that at the very least S-E doesn't take inspiration and do the same.There's a big difference between doing something as a hoby / for the fun of it and doing it as a job. SE's employees by and large probably want to be there, but they're doing a job and need to be paid. Thus doing this kind of thing costs SE money, and SE has to do a Cost benefit analysis to determine if the likely result is worth the cost. Whereas a hobbyist doesn't have to.




But it might take the collapse of XIV before Producers give some serious consideration to an FFXIR or FFXI-2. FFXIV isn't going to "collapse" anytime soon. Becuase it is and always has been more successful than FFXI ever was, it actually is getting a graphical update. FFXI honestly should have gotten one, but "PS2 LIMITATIONS." FFXI's biggest mistakes have nothing to do with FFXIV whatsoever, and chief among them was not cutting the PS2 loose. They could have done so when the PS3 came out. If they had done this sooner when they were still putting any resources into FFXI, then they probably could and would have done a graphical update.

[Immortal]

No, just no. Don't even go there. FFXI was never anywhere near big enough to "hamstring FFXIV's success." They could spend a million or two on an advertising campaign or something else to boost the game and it wouldn't affect FFXIV at all. This is an absolutely absurd proposition.



False, especially considering they are practically considered the same entity under business reports. XI spending 2 million on advertising would have 0 affect on XIV? You can't be serious



Maybe you forgot that you alreaday covered it in your post, but they already tried that, and it didn't pan out, for reasons unknown.


So why bring it up? One example shouldn't be enough to stop suggesting they try it if they don't give a F about the game. I personally would hope they continue it but its increasingly obvious to me they don't care (Square Enix)



but it's absolutely ridiculous to imply that FFXI had to suffer for FFXIV to succeed.

No it isn't, and its a fact.

[Sp1cyryan]

No it isn't, and its a fact.

So does your dad work at SE or something?

You do realize this game be this way without FF14 ever existing, right? At this point it is likely helping.

[Alhanelem]

No it isn't, and its a fact. This isn't a fact in any way shape or form, and you don't have any ability to prove it. There is nothing in your post whatsoever other than opinion, and a heavily biased opinion at that.

If you use the word "fact," you need to cite your sources.



So why bring it up?You brought it up yourself, so ask yourself that question, I guess? The point was, there is a reason it got cancelled, and while we don't know the exact reason, the most likely ones are either disagreements between SE and Nexon over development or the business side of things, or simply that cost-benefit analyses were not favorable to continuing with the project.



False, especially considering they are practically considered the same entity under business reports. Are you Pixela's second account or something? We've been through this a million times already. The fact that the individual games aren't listed on financial reports means nothing. They're grouped together because they are run by the same business unit at SE under the same director and for no other reason. FFXIV does not need FFXI's player numbers, which are absolutely insignificant against FFXIV's, nor its income, to post favorable financial reports- FFXIV gains absolutely nothing from this statement of yours. If anything, this "arrangement" (it's not really fair to even call it that, because as I said, it's as simple as "the same business division runs both") is beneficial to FFXI as it means it doesn't really need to even meet any financial goals. And SE has stated its intention to keep the game running for the forseeable future so a mainline FF title remains playable. This absolutely facilitates that.

There is literally nothing more to your post than "I hate FFXIV and resent its existence so I'm blaming everything on it." (And just like Pixela, you're suspiciously unable or unwilling to cite your sources)

FFXI was already declining before FFXIV even came out, and no, it wasn't simply because people knew it was coming. If that was the case, when XIV 1.0 flopped hardcore, why didn't FFXI see a player influx? It was in every way the better game at the time.

[BobbinT]

The housing destruction is the single worst thing I've seen in an mmo, they designed the housing system to be limited in a subscription based game and knew full well that if someone ceases their sub they will lose it. This would be annoying enough on its own, but when the lead developer tells you to just go play other games if you're bored with the lack of content, knowing full well your house gets demolished if you ubsub is terrible.

On one hand it's predatory behavior to blackmail players this way, on the other hand I know people who haven't played for years and retain the sub to keep a fake house so it obviously works. Smart buisnessman.

This would be like if the developers made prime weapons have an afterglow, but limited it to 50 per server and to retain it you had to talk to an npc once a month in the game. If you unsub you lose the glow and all the gil / time you spent to get it in the first place.


Well... FF14 now has Island Sanctuary, FF11's equivalent for Mog Garden/Island, & next week's patch 6.4 will let players decor using outdoor housing items up to 90 furnitures. Think that would ease up alot of problems regarding housing needs.


Do personally admit having housing mostly for cheaper tele access, but only in long run since I do play there since start. Also, there's apartments which doesn't have destruction/eviction times, at least for indoor furnish needs. And it might not hurt joining free companies since one can rent rooms there as well which provides up to 500+ per FC.

[Immortal]

FFXI was already declining before FFXIV even came out, and no, it wasn't simply because people knew it was coming. If that was the case, when XIV 1.0 flopped hardcore, why didn't FFXI see a player influx? It was in every way the better game at the time.

It was declining, as a direct result of all resources being pulled so they could work on XIV. XI went literally 8 months+ without an update during WOTG, that whole time period was a huge crawl in terms of content/updates due to XIV. As a direct result (they also stopped advertising during this crunch to get XIV out) the game suffered, can see that easily before 1.0 came out. This caused a decline, which did turn around once Abyssea came out. This is because 1.0 flopped.


Final Fantasy XIV 1.0 released in September 2010

Service for Heroes of Abyssea commenced on December 7, 2010

This saw an increase in XIs population and the devs decided to focus on the game as a result of the horrible 1.0 release/reception to tide them over until realm reborn.

[Sirmarki]

well the cost of running the servers has also decreased quite significantly, you are right, some costs have gone up, others have gone down. Inflation is only part of the story...

I would pay an increased sub, as it just falls in line with what generally happens overtime anyway, and if it offered new content.

I mean a wardrobe costs £1.40GBP, to put it into perspective, I don't even think that buys a bottle of cola now.

[Pixela]

To be clear, they have literally stated that the money that was going to upgrade XI to a ps3 and later possibly ps4 game instead went to make XIV. They just assumed everyone from 11 would play 14, which is why they made the races identical (even the hairs are similar). Quite why they chose to change the names though makes zero sense to me.

Whether what happened is for the better or worse is unknown, if they had updated 11 into a ps3-4 game it's entirely possible they would of re-imagined it into a travesty and completely ruined it long ago to the point none of us would even care about it now.

For better or worse, at least 11 is true to what it was made as and what we like it for.

I frankly don't trust Square to do a remake of 11 then or now.

[Pixela]

As FFXI nears its 20th anniversary, gaming technology has quickly come a long way over the years, and I imagine many concerns came up as the game grew older in comparison. How long did you originally expect the game’s operations to last?


Tanaka: When we chose to make the game for the PlayStation 2 (PS2), we assumed the game was fated to end with the PS2’s lifespan. However, the Windows version extended FFXI’s lifespan beyond that of the PS2.


Tanaka: Back then, household gaming consoles lasted about five years before they were succeeded by the next generation. The PS2 was succeeded by the PlayStation 3 (PS3), which had drastically better graphical capabilities, and we felt that a simple port wouldn’t cut it. Of course, we received many requests for a PS3 port, but we had a massive amount of development resources, of which the graphics data in particular would have to be remade from scratch. Rather than pouring manpower and budget into reconstructing a world that players had already thoroughly experienced, we felt that those resources would be better spent creating a new game with its own world and adventures. With that said, we surmised that FFXI players would be emotionally attached to their player characters, so development of FINAL FANTASY XIV (FFXIV) began with design options for characters which resembled the player characters in FFXI.


Tanaka: It was like a parallel development period between FFXI and FFXIV. On one hand, the FFXIV team was working to the bone to establish their project, while FFXI was lacking staff members for development of Seekers of Adoulin and ended up getting help from an external development company.

https://we-are-vanadiel.finalfantasyxi.com/post/?id=120

[Sp1cyryan]

To be clear, they have literally stated that the money that was going to upgrade XI to a ps3 and later possibly ps4 game instead went to make XIV. They just assumed everyone from 11 would play 14, which is why they made the races identical (even the hairs are similar). Quite why they chose to change the names though makes zero sense to me.


No, they literally stated that the cost to remake the world was not worth it, and they expected the game to end with the end of PS2. That is different than "money for 11 went to 14." Massive amount of development resources isn't about the resources of the team, but the work they have to do in this context.

They used the similar looking races because they were building on their success and prior work and had a connection to XI. Come on, this isn't hard.

[Pixela]

Come on, this isn't hard.

It is for you apparently, what a dummy.


With that said, we surmised that FFXI players would be emotionally attached to their player characters, so development of FINAL FANTASY XIV (FFXIV) began with design options for characters which resembled the player characters in FFXI.

[Sp1cyryan]

It is for you apparently, what a dummy.

This somehow invalidates what I just said to your remarks?

[Pixela]

This somehow invalidates what I just to your remarks?

You're so silly.

[Immortal]

So does your dad work at SE or something?

You do realize this game be this way without FF14 ever existing, right? At this point it is likely helping.

Opinion...

[Alhanelem]

Opinion...
Opinion based on reality and attentive observation. It's as I said. While the launch of FFXIV ARR probably didn't help matters at the time, FFXI's future was already decided long before that. the flop that was FFXIV 1.0 should have been a boon to XI but it wasn't.

The evidence is quite clear that FFXI didn't need FFXIV's help to get to where it is now.

[Immortal]

Opinion based on reality and attentive observation. It's as I said. While the launch of FFXIV ARR probably didn't help matters at the time, FFXI's future was already decided long before that. the flop that was FFXIV 1.0 should have been a boon to XI but it wasn't.

The evidence is quite clear that FFXI didn't need FFXIV's help to get to where it is now.

Where is the evidence?

[Alhanelem]

Where is the evidence?
The evidence is in player activity prior to the game's release, along with the server merges and other signs that the game's popularity was decreasing, again prior to FFXIV ARR.

You don't have server merges when your game is super successful and copies are flying off the shelves. FFXIV 1.0 came out in 2010 was a massive flop, which should have been good for FFXI, but it didn't do much. By the time ARR came out in september 2010 and bombed hardcore. And yet not long after this, FFXI had server merges, despite that it would be quite some time before FFXIV's much more successful relaunch would happen in 2013. This means the game's population was already declining, there's no way that would happen within 4 months because of the launch of a critically panned game.



https://i.imgur.com/iwUyK6G.png

[Immortal]

Yes and where is the evidence that XIV had nothing to do with that?

[Alhanelem]

Yes and where is the evidence that XIV had nothing to do with that?
Do successful healthy games that are growing have server merges when the game that was supposedly going to take its players bombed and got pulled from the market? Doesn't make any logical sense to me. But what the hell do I know?

There's no way FFXIV caused that. FFXI was already going through rough times. 2011 was when Dynamis was changed and when Voidwatch came out, on the heels of abyssea, which is widely blamed by players for the game's decline.

It is thought by some that Abyssea being the crazy power playground that it was, made future content far less exciting and fun purely because abyssea made you feel so much more powerful, and then new content comes out and gives you a pale imitation of the power you had in Abyssea. Not everyone agrees with this exact explanation, but you can dig through these forums and others and find lots of debates on this where people blame Abyssea.

[Immortal]

It's called cutting your losses, when a big project fails they have to save money from any source they can. Which is what happened most recently I'm pretty sure.

Where is your evidence, sources.